what happens when you die?

[Abigail]

This is probably a very basic question, even childlike... that is because my children keep asking me this one and I honestly don't know how to answer it.
I looked up 'heaven' and as far as I know the Bible doesn't speak about 'going to heaven' when you die, just as it doesn't speak about 'going to hell' either.
Since dying is sometimes likened to 'falling asleep', I optioned that it might be like sleeping. Yet my 8 year old daughter found that frightening somehow (sleeping for sooooo long), and I was not sure about it in my spirit either.  :dontknow:

[sheila]

well Jesus likened it to sleep also.  But He also wakes us up!!!!!!!!

[Tom]

Here's a link about death, sis. http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html It's kind of a long article, but I think it is good information. What it boils down to is that death is a return. The body returns to the soil; the spirit returns to God; and the soul returns to the unseen state which it was in before being alive. The body is the material part of a human. The spirit is the power of life, action, and intelligence. The soul is the conscious experience that is the result of the combination of an organic body with breath or spirit. Scripture says the soul dies. So the story about folks going to heaven or hell when they die is just mythology supported by the doctrine of orthodox theology. Only Christ has been immortalized so far. Believers will be when we meet Christ in the air. Unbelievers will be when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons. All mankind will be saved; all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God; and God will be all in all. This stuff may be too much for your kids to understand though. The analogy of sleeping is a good one for them probably, and like Sheila said, remind them that Jesus will wake us up someday, and we'll always be with him after that.

[lastpost]

I truly find this sad. I would tell children that when a person dies they go to be with Jesus. I personally believe to tell them otherwise is a degradation of Love and not in tune with the world that an innocent and [as yet] un-programmed child sees in the life-patterns of the world around them.

I believe that the test in everything is that if something does not come up to the highest standard of love, then it is not of the God who is Love.

I am fully aware of traditional thought which adheres to a literal reading of the sacred records, but I believe much has been dismissed in order to fit in with the traditional notion. I personally see plenty of hope...

Moses, used to mediating laws, talks with Jesus about His forthcoming decease (Luke 9:31). Many think this was a vision yet Peter finds Moses so real that he wishes to make him a tabernacle, therefore clearly being a witness to the return of Moses; but of course spirits do not need material shelter.

A messenger (aggelos) from another World addresses John, who is told not to bow to him as he is one of his own "brethren", a "fellow" servant. There is a clear indication that this spiritual being was at one time alive in the flesh on the earth because he declared he was a prophet (Rev. 19:9-11 & 22:9).

Christ, under the solemn circumstances of His physical death, tells a robber dying at His side (Luke 23:43) that he need not have to wait until a future time to be remembered by Him, but, the robber is told clearly, that he, the person to whom Christ was speaking, would be on that very day in "Paradise".

Peter (a witness at the Transfiguration), tells us that Christ preached to the "spirits" of "once wicked" people who were killed in the flood of Noah's time. This preaching was so that they might hear the Gospel of Love which Christ preached, so that they could live in accord with the laws of the Spirit (1Pet.3:18-20 & 4:6).

Christ, in order to fulfil Old Testament prophecy that He would "rise" from the "dead" "three days" after His passing, appears at that time and at other times, being very much the Master, the same Master who once sojourned the earth in the flesh. Traditionalists restrict Christ's power, and for some reason some find it difficult to comprehend that it was a simple thing for Christ to be able to both preach to the "spirits in keeping" and also to have the power to be elsewhere within the "three days" He took to reappear after "death", for instance, in the brighter spheres when He was to be with the robber. Christ made the whole universe - once the restrictions of the physical body are ended, being omnipresent is easy to understand.

Christ's story shows Lazarus and the rich man dying: "The beggar died...the rich man also died", and then with absolutely no sleeping or being unconscious for any length of time, shows them very much alive (Luke 16:19-31), an instant transition.

Again, Christ explains to the rationalizing Sadducees that they were "all wrong" about their concept of no existence after death. The Sadducees held that there was no Afterlife (according to Josephus). Christ tells them that their own Scriptures spoke of those whose physical bodies had lost life but who had obtained worthiness (v. 35) while alive, were really alive, indeed the same as angels (v. 36), because Moses named the Lord as being the God of the living fathers in contradistinction to the dead fathers: "...that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob (v. 37)". And to leave no doubt about this issue, Christ carries on to say: "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living (v. 38)".

NB: The word: "anastasis" means: 1) a raising up, rising; 2) a rising from the dead.

The primary Greek definition of the phrase which the Translators have rendered: "the resurrection from the dead (v. 35)" is "anastasis - ek - nekros", which literally means: "a raising up - out of - one that has breathed his last". A transition.

Love must be allowed to rule and the old traditionalist theories allowed to pass away.

[sheila]

  the hour is coming..and NOW IS..when all those asleep in the grave will hear the voice of the son of God and rise..........

   I agree last post.   I once heard my neighbor years ago say....'I don't mind dying..but you just have to be gone for

  so long!!!!!  lest we forget..the changed in a twinkling of an eye...and that those that remain alive at His coming will not

  precede those who have died.

[Shev]

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.  22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.  23 For[c] I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.  24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.  25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,  26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again. (Philippians 1:21-26)

[sheila]

  He said 'I am the resurrection and the life" The Holy spirit say's...'You will not allow your Holy one to see corruption"

     Who-so-ever believe in me.. shall never die..and if you do die,ye shall live,do you believe this?

      he who hates his life in this world..preserves it unto the eternal..but he who loves his life in this world[and through fear of death remains

     all their lives in slavery by thier fear of death] looses it[dies in the flesh to this world,so he may live unto Christ]

   if ye shrink back in fear...I have no pleasure in ye.   I always do that which PLEASES THE FATHER..

   there is no more death O'Immanuel!   Believing Unto the Salvation of Your Souls!!!!!!!

[sheila]

   Not that I desire to be unclothed.......who is naked but he that is in the grave? no terrestial garment..no celestial garment.......

   do you really think He that says'clothe the naked" will
expose the nakedness of their shame? No! God said...I will remove

  the shame of my people.............who-so-ever believeth in Him shall not be ashamed.

   But then,some will say........what about the unbelievers? well...when they hear His voice in the grave..they shall believe!!!!!!

       and they shall confess with their tougne..and repent! For they shall hear what they had not heard..and see that which they

  had not seen.  the tares of unbelief shall He bind and burn and gather them into the barn of heaven>

[Psalm91:4]

Believers have different opinions about this.  :)  Nothing like stating the obvious, huh?   

My take on it  (and believing UR has not changed my view on this)  I believe I am crucified with Christ nevertheless Iive but not I, Christ lives in me.

So the question then becomes does Christ die again or did he die once for all?   

Now I`m not saying that I understand the dynamics of the power of his resurrection and his immortality as it applies literally now. -in me-  yet somehow I believe that death has no power or authority over me, in Christ, and when this dust returns to the earth, should the Lord tarry, that I go to be with my victorious and loving Savior.  Out of the body, with the Lord.

Nothing is gonna keep me from him.
Respectfully submitted to those who have a different view.

:)

 

[sheila]

 well there are two wittnesses..Jesus AND the Holy spirit....the Holy spirit testimony has also been put to death..so to speak

  in the earth..men began listening and preferring not the spirit of truth..in favour of doctrines of demons/traditions....the saints were

  overcome..the beastly carnal/nature of man[of sin] putting their testimony to death in the earth. if satan is divided against

himself..his house can not stand[before the Lord in His presence]

   so yes..those who once had tasted the free gift..then were overcome yet by the world...exposes Him to public shame.....

  and we can see how His name is blasphemed by the churches and religions in the earth.......the beast shall hate the harlot

  get out of her my people!

[lastpost]

So the question then becomes does Christ die again or did he die once for all?

Ah, that's so very kind of you to say so in that manner.

Personally, I would have no Christ in my life if the dead are not raised to life. That is a literal fact with no reason but to say it plainly - and I know how strange it must sound to...well a lot of people I suppose - so to me it is so very ordinary to me with no enigma, so I do not mean to trample on anyone in my ignorance.

I see the Master Jesus shedding His Light in all directions, and His Light cannot be swallowed up by darkness - such a thing can never be. Goodness, when He says that those who believe in Him shall never die, I do not know how more clearly He could put it.

Blessings to you and all the wonderful people who frequent this gathering. I have been moved over the last few days by every single person who has spoken here, you are all so very special - and it is a privilege to feel the Christ in me burn when you give your offerings to Him and your neighbours.

[Tom]

I think, when we all die, if we do before we're snatched away, that the next thing we will be conscious of is being alive again in the presence of the Lord no matter how much time has passed, but why not tell kids the truth instead of confusing them with mythology that will have to be corrected later? And, if good people have gone to be with Jesus, where have the bad people gone? Sleep is used figuratively of death in scripture. So that's not untrue. I would rather have been told the truth, even if it was a simplified version, than the nonsense I was told when I was young. It just made me distrust the church when I learned the truth. I don't agree that telling kids something false shows more love to them. I mean you could rationalize it by saying that the dead have gone to be with Jesus because eventually they will be alive with Jesus, but, if anybody has an impression that death is another form of life, then how do you explain the resurrection? I think either you're dead or alive, and part of you isn't alive when the rest of you is dead. That's orthodox theology that is just deception. So I think you can say the dead went to be with Jesus, but they're not alive now. But then you're probably going to have to explain how they can be with Jesus but not be alive. You can tell your kids what you want, but I think the best thing to tell them is what scripture says even if you have to simplify it for them.

Scripture plainly says that what Peter experienced on the mountain was a "vision" (Matthew 17:9). So it isn't just what "many think."

The Greek "propheteia," literally "before-averment," seems to be able to be applied to humans and celestial messengers. Didn't Gabriel prophesy to Mary that she would be pregnant with the Christ child? (Luke 1:26-33)

The Greek "aggelos," literally "messenger," translated as "angel" in popular versions, can apply to humans or spirit beings, but I don't believe the "spiritual being" in Revelation was once human just because he said, "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" or "a fellow slave of yours am I, and of your brethren, the prophets."

There's no punctuation in the ancient manuscripts, and a small comma in translation makes a big difference in the story of what Christ said to the thief on the cross.

And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise." (Luke 23:43)

In other words, Christ was telling him "today" that he would be with him in "paradise," but Christ didn't say he would be with him in "paradise" today.

I think the "spirits" in 1 Peter 3:19 are the same beings as the "sinning messengers" in 2 Peter 2:4 and the "messengers" of Jude 6. I don't believe good people die and go to heaven to be angels as the popular mythology says. I think spirit beings, celestial messengers, are different creatures than humans. I think we will be immortalized in spiritual bodies in the future sometime, but that will happen when we're either snatched away while alive or resurrected and snatched away (1 Corinthians 15:42-46,51-54;1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

I think the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is one part of a five part parable, not about being "very much alive" when they're dead, but Christ is using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them. http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html

I think the issue with the Sadducees is they believed "there is no resurrection." I believe Christ was resurrected and vivified, in other words immortalized, but we will be resurrected and vivified at a later time sometime in the future. However, the popular mythology says that we're still alive when we're dead.

Scripture says the soul dies (Ezekiel 18:4,20).

I believe those who die are figuratively sleeping but literally dead (John 11:11-14).

I also believe scripture where it says the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

[lastpost]

Thanks Tom, that was very interesting.

I believe that those who have convinced themselves (through training their own habits of mind) that they will "sleep" when they quit their physical bodies, will indeed sleep for various amounts of time, and it will take a lot of prayer from others to help them revive. So essentially, I believe it is not a good thing to train children to believe that they cease to have an awkened consciousness when they die.

[Shev]

Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.  26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."
(Fourth Gospel 11:23-27)

[sheila]

,many have failed to discern the body of Christ and eaten unworthily[ if ye speak worthy words I will put you in charge of my courts

  [Joshua the High Priest in change of garments for priesthood] and have fallen asleep in death.

[Tom]

As I said, the dead are only sleeping figuratively, and I don't think prayer is going to "help them revive." That's only going to happen at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:51,52). Scripture says the soul dies (Ezekiel 18:4,20), and the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So I don't believe the dead have "awakened consciousness."

[sheila]

   it says ..the soul that is sinning dies.  but we are all double souled  the outer man that perishes..and the inner man[secret person

  of the heart/hidden in Christ/the Kingdom of the the love of the son]

   even now..to live in Christ..we must put that old man to death figuratively..in order to do the will of God.........

   the new creature in Christ gets the victory through crushing the head[mind] of the serpent..even though his heel be bruised

through the accomplishing of it.       

   the carnal man is dead because the spiritual is foolishness to him....therefore He knows nothing..where as we know Christ

   and knowing Him is eternal life.

[Tom]

I prefer this translation.

"I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living. And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon." (John 11:25,26)

You have to discern which eon he's referring to. I think only three resurrections lead to immortality. Christ's was the first; those in the ecclesia, the body of Christ, come next when we're snatched away, and he meets us in the air; and then it will happen for the rest of mankind at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.

[Tom]

I think we're all living souls, sis, and we all sin and are dying. Scripture speaks of the human as both being a soul and having a soul, but I don't remember reading about having a soul that dies and a soul that lives at the same time.

[sheila]

but Tom..He's been sowing His ecclesia in the earth continously ...and continously sowing and reaping all men..in each generation.

  the final GREAT HARVEST IS COMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and even now the angels are pulling up the tares and binding them for burning!!!!!!!!

and gathering His wheat into the barn. do you not know..that when the wheat falls to the earth and dies....it bears much fruit in heaven?

  sowing reaping..harvest..tares..wheat..barn

[sheila]

 our outer man that perishes..is the soul that dies......yet our inner[spiritual man secret person of the heart]  one soul is like

the body of the animal[flesh/blood. can NOT please God.terrestial] the other is celestial..is born of God and can not sin.

[sheila]

   I SAY, EVEN NOW  LOOK!THE FIELDS ARE WHITE FOR HARVESTING...the harvest is great..but the workers are few...beg the

  master of the harvest to send out more workers...

  men that work alongside the angels in this work..are the one hour workers...He keeping us through that hour of trial...

[sheila]

...the angels said ,;Lord,Thou planted good seed[God said it is good on the day He made man in His image and placed him in the earth]

   from whence come the tares?  THE LORD REPLIED,AN ENEMY HATH DONE THIS IN THE NIGHT[kingdom of darkness]

[Tom]

I believe death means no consciousness that will end when we're resurrected and immortalized. I think, as far as our consciousness is concerned, life may seem to flow continuously from the moment we die to the moment when we're truly awakened consciously immortalized because we'll be oblivious to however much time has passed while we've been dead. I think it's God's wisdom to give us the experience of death because it causes all believers to be made alive again together, and even all unbelievers will be made alive again together. That basically eliminates the time factor involved for all of humanity who existed at different times but will be living together from then on.

I think at death the body returns to the soil; the spirit returns to God; and the soul returns to the unseen.   

[sheila]

 well..that time factor you mentioned is this 'each in his own order'  perfect in his generation