Born Again?

[eaglesway]

"If any man be in Christ Jeus, he is a new creature"


1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.


1 Peter 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.



Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

[eaglesway]

Actually the translation of John 3:8 is a little shaky. The word for wind is simply "pneuma" which is translated spirit virtually everywhere else(160 times).

This strikes me as a poetic device and an interpretation more than a translation. Where the Concordant gets "blast", I don't know- it makes no sense to me, since the Concordant doesnt routinely translate "pneuma" as "blast".

It should read, "the spirit blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it.............". There is no reason it should be changed to wind that I can see.

[Tom]

You see what seem to be some strange words in the Concordant Version sometimes, but Merriam-Webster online says the definition of "blast" is "a mass of air that moves very quickly and forcefully."

The Concordant Literal New Testament Keyword Concordance says "spirit," from the Greek "pneuma," literally "blow-effect," is "by implication the imperceptible, intangible power of action, life and intelligence," but, because it literally means "blow-effect," it's also translated as "blast" in two places. Here's the other one.

"And suddenly there came out of heaven a blare, even as of a violent, carrying blast, and it fills the whole house where they were sitting." (Acts 2:2)

See the attachment for a comparison of translations.

I think it's also interesting that, although we may think of God forming Adam from the soil and giving him spirit to become a living soul, scripture says God blew into his nostrils the breath of life.

"Yahweh Elohim formed the human out of the soil from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and the human became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

That's the "blow-effect" that is by implication "spirit." So it seems that it may be legit to use the word "pneuma" either way according to context. Of course, because God is literally "spirit," even a "blast" from him is still "spirit," right?

PS: I know some folks here are more into the Hebrew language interpretation of things. Because I'm not aware of a Concordant Version Hebrew concordance, this is one of the few times I checked Marie's favorite Strong's Concordance and confirmed what I thought I remembered that the Hebrew word "ruach" is also defined as "breath, wind, spirit."  That's Strong's Hebrew number 7307.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[eaglesway]

Blast seems a little off to me, but so does 'veteran' for geron(old) in john 3:4. I guess I would just like to see consistency in translation of common words, in any version.

[jabcat]

We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. :2c:

I know you're a scripture believing man, so since the scriptures say different, it seems to me that now the question becomes "what does it mean, how does it fit/reconcile with other scriptures, how do we understand it, etc.".


New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

New Living Translation
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


Holman Christian Standard Bible
For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift--

International Standard Version
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.


American Standard Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

English Revised Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Weymouth New Testament
For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--

World English Bible
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Young's Literal Translation
for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,



I believe eaglesway hit on the points in his "holiness" thread.  When we're given faith to believe, God indwells us and gives us HIS righteousness (RIGHT STANDING, made right).  Then we grow or stumble or both, live in surrender or rebellion, but still a new born child of God.  Done deal. 

We've been around this one before :)  I'm sure I'm missing some things, but here's my through a glass darkly view.  I've been wanting to revisit this, and in fact have been thinking about it again.  I didn't used to believe it, and dismissed it the first time I heard it (or thought I did, because it must have planted a seed).  I see it in 3, and I believe Paul spoke of it that way.  Also, I think it fits with "is, was, and will be".   

1 When one believes the spirit is saved, born from above/born again spiritually.  New life. Irrevocable, as "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable".  SavED (past tense).  Sealed with the Spirit unto that day.  What day?*

2 Then as we walk through this learning experience called life, we are led and have many opportunities to "grow in grace in knowledge".  I see that as our soul being saved - who we are, our attitudes, our will being (or not) conformed to His, our thoughts being put under His control, etc.  Has to do with "running the race, fighting a good fight", etc...Rewards, crown of righteousness.  Some will gain, some will lose and end up only standing before Him with their spirit saved, but without any other spiritual "accomplishments" or gaining any rewards.

3 Then, when we are finally fully made whole/healed/saved, on *that DAY.  That day when our bodies are saved, i.e., given immortality, living and reigning with Him in our spiritual body as Paul calls it.  The redemption of our bodies ("there are earthly bodies and there are spiritual/heavenly bodies").

So once again :), I personally see it as saved, being saved, and will be saved.  Paul said we're saved spirit, soul, and body. 

Blessings, all have a great day in the Lord.

[Tom]

I agree about consistency in translation. I think the Concordant Version actually does a better job of that than most. The thing that bugs me about it is some of the words in King James style English. I'd like to see them come up with a modernized version one of these days, but I ain't holding my breath. The first thing I think they should do is combine the Hebrew and Greek scriptures into one book. They finally got a book out of the Hebrew scriptures. I still think they're the most accurate translation I know of. I know some folks like other versions, but I'm sticking with them unless I see something better.

[marie glen]

Easy birth easy? Is there a duration from conception? Is there travail?  :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:

We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again, as we are not yet powerful and invisible like "the WIND."  Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. :2c:

John 3:8  - NKJV
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

I think this means those born of the Spirit are led of the Spirit, so who, except the Spirit of God knows where they are going.. or `where they are coming from`.. I know most who know me, but do not yet know the Lord, often wonder where the heck I am coming from, or just where I am headed in my reasoning.. (Some who do know the Lord may wonder this about me too  :laughing7: ..which is likely true of all of us..)

Concordant Version
8 The blast (breath of God?) is blowing where it wills, and the sound of it you are hearing, but you are not aware whence it is coming and where it is going. Thus is everyone who is begotten by the water and the spirit."
      :smile: :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

"1 When one believes the spirit is saved, born from above/born again spiritually.  New life. Irrevocable, as "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable".  SavED (past tense). "(Jabcat)
Then you say,  "3 Then, when we are finally fully made whole/healed/saved, on *that DAY.(Jabcat)

We are saved "past tense" that is something finished complete, then "when we are finally made whole/healed/saved * on that DAY" How can it be "past tense" done finished when it is not that day?

"I see it in 3, and I believe Paul spoke of it that way.  Also, I think it fits with "is, was, and will be".  (Jabcat)

If you speak of Paul speaking in 3 from  1Th 5:23, my question, is there another verse or witness that speaks of this body, soul, and spirit?  I have searched and come up empty. There was much Greek mythology in the time of the NT. And the "soul" was much debated and with much philosophy.    Matt. 28:19 is a staple in Christian theology, but I have yet to find a verse to bear witness, and have found no such baptizing done by anyone in the NT.  Yet that is the sandy foundation of Christian theology.

I believe  1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  "that DAY" is not here yet.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my dearly-loved friends, as I have always found you obedient, labour earnestly with fear and trembling--not merely as though I were present with you, but much more now since I am absent from you--labour earnestly, I say, to make sure of your own salvation.
Php 2:13  For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire.

[jabcat]

I believe  1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  "that DAY" is not here yet.

Thanks for the kind reply.  I'll look at more of what you wrote later.  The one thing I'll comment on now is, I don't believe the above verse disagrees with what I said, because I believe that's speaking of the day when ALL are saved.  When every knee bows and every tongue confesses.  I believe those already saved/born again/redeemed/born from above/given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior     in this lifetime, have already done that.  The ecclesia, elect.  The rest will do so in due time, according to the verse above.   More later when I have time to digest :)

[jabcat]

sorry, i'm hitting this between other things.  quickly

without looking them up (I believe they are NUMEROUS and scattered throughout the scriptures) I believe there is much evidence for a specific event,  i.e., one being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  Then other scriptures that talk about that in past tense, a done deal, completed.     

Then further, I believe there are other scriptures that talk about the continuing work of growing, changing, being brought into His likeness - Paul talks of it as maturity, and of walking worthy of the high calling.  Notice, the calling already occurred.  The becoming a child of God already happened ("as many as believe on His name")...but then we're to go forward, dying to self, following Him, pressing forward, working toward the crown of righteousness LAID up for us (not, WILL BE laid up for us).

Then thirdly, all the scrips about that Day when our bodies are redeemed, corruptible putting on incorruptible, earthly body to spiritual/heavenly body.

1,2,3.   Done, being done, will be done.

If anyone sees it differently, I understand.  I may change some of my views as I go and hopefully understand a little better.  It's just to specifically say "there is no saved past tense" is IMO, just not true (as shown by the Ephesians 2:8 scripture quoted earlier).  So again then for me, the question is, what does it mean, how does it fit together, how is it reconciled, etc., and I'm sharing my best shot at it right now.  I'm sure we have many different perspectives, with many having little pieces of the whole.   :bigGrin: 

[jabcat]

p.s.  maybe don't get distracted by "#2" being the salvation of the soul.  Maybe there's an even better way to describe that.  It's just that I believe scriptures support those saved in this life being already made in right standing with God by the blood of Jesus applied through belief on Him/His name.  Saved.   Then there's the process of growing, changing, conforming, being made in His likeness - with His help and grace, learning to "walk the walk" or "walk it out" - not having to do with what's already been settled when we believed.  But having to do with obedience, reward, maturity ("sonship"?  don't get distracted by that either, I'm searching for the right description/name of the process that I believe is described in scripture).  A different and ongoing process than this - "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"  I Jn 1:12.

[micah7:9]

I believe all of what you posted, but please see that in all you posted you even say it is a work(birth) in progress. Why is the progress and process, professed as a completed thing. I am saved by grace...I believe that...it is my hope....I am born again...I believe that and hold to that, still I look and see myself just not finished. Should you see your self as complete and done, I can say nothing. It is my belief, hope, and faith that I will be...but I just don't see myself as my Elder Brother.....still I hold to the Word

1 John 3:1-3 1 Behold, what manner of love, the Father hath bestowed upon us—that, children of God, we should be called,—and such we are! Therefore, the world understandeth us not, because it understood not him. 2 Beloved! now, are we, children of God; and, not yet, hath it been made manifest, what we shall be,—We know that, if it should be made manifest, like unto him, shall we be, because we shall see him, just as he is. 3 And, whosoever hath this hope on him, is purifying himself, just as, He, is pure. :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

I agree brother.  He's given us grace, mercy, and His righteousness.  None of our own doing.  Now He's in the process of molding us into His image - day by day.  Neither do I as yet see myself as having attained anything.  All I have is His gift.  He will make us COMPLETELY whole on that day.  We look for a city.   

"Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith."   "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it".   Yet He has already sealed us [believers] unto that day.   :2c:

[micah7:9]

""Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith."   "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it".   Yet He has already sealed us [believers] unto that day.   :2c:"

This I also believe with all hope, yes we are sealed, GLORY.......and as Paul we run the race with hope. A good long distance runner learns to breath and pace himself......... and wait. It ain't over yet.:2c: :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

Paul said in Col.3:1, If ye then be risin with Christ,  We are spiritually sitting in Christ on the right hand of the Father. I believe if that is true then I am saved/born again. If I have died was  buried and resurrected I have been born again spiritually.

CHB

[eaglesway]

Being born again is the beginning.

[micah7:9]

Was Jesus born again? When? I'm asking :HeartThrob:
Joh 20:17 which is the term for "Teacher.Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

[eaglesway]

Doesnt really matter pertaining to our being born of God, since the scriptures say we have been.....but my guess is Jesus did not have to be born again since He was never "in Adam" or in need of redemption, and always believed the word of God and in fact, IS the incorruptible seed by which we are born again(1 Peter 1)

Being born again is not a destination, it is a starting point.

[sheila]

John...I think because the little children were partakers of flesh and blood,and he likewise partook....He was born again..for He is

  the firstborn of the dead.[Lord of living and dead]  son of man/son of God] I was alive,I died..I live forever

[micah7:9]

Doesnt really matter pertaining to our being born of God, since the scriptures say we have been.....but my guess is Jesus did not have to be born again since He was never "in Adam" or in need of redemption, and always believed the word of God and in fact, IS the incorruptible seed by which we are born again(1 Peter 1)

Being born again is not a destination, it is a starting point.

Never really thought of asking my question because I never thought of the subject till this post.

"Doesnt really matter pertaining to our being born of God, since the scriptures say we have been...." I agree, we are born of God, no debate.

"but my guess is Jesus did not have to be born again since He was never "in Adam"

My thoughts  Ro. 1:3 "made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Gal. 4:4 "God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, " Heb. 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

" or in need of redemption, and always believed the word of God and in fact, IS the incorruptible seed by which we are born again(1 Peter 1)"

I agree as well, but did He not come as a human being(Adam) to accomplish what He did?
But the "flesh" was certainly in need of redemption . 2Co 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."

"Being born again is not a destination, it is a starting point."

And there you have it, a STARTING point, we are BEING born again [born from above].
Joh 6:38 for I have descended from heaven, not that I should be doing My will, but the will of Him Who sends Me."
Is Jesus not born from above.... again at His resurrection[a standing up again]
Jesus was a very special man, but He was a man for some 30 years, our elder brother, our example, He taught and instructed by Word and example that we are to follow. He was the Son of God, yet so was Adam. Did He tell us to do something that He would not Himself do? I believe His example of being born again was consummated on the tree with "It is finished." And in my opinion it very well could be the destination. I welcome, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness ...............and rebuke. :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

 I agree with Micah......

         the Word of God..[let us make man in our image] come in flesh...expeirenced  death[fell to the earth and died] was raised up, and

bears  much fruit in heaven[draws all men unto himself]

     the announcement this is my son..after the baptism in the Jordan[descend]..John's witness/testimony of the dove descending as

   Jesus come up out of the Jordan,   and remaining/breast of heaven offered as High Priest's portion/Jesus ministry of atonement/Lamb

slain..   the people's language being changed to a pure language=tongues of fire.......no longer blessing and cursing[[tokogae/dragon

  given power over all nations/TOngues=tokogae/accuser of the brethern= satan cast out of heaven/lost his position as accusor

  due to the Lamb of God which takes away all their sin/all the fruit/all men drawn


   ...for I will not always find fault..for then even the spirit would fail before me.

   it seems to all fit to me.

[eaglesway]

Sorry Micah, I wasnt trying to say, "No debate". I should have said, "Doesnt matter to me". I am trying to say is, if the scriptures say we are/were born again, that settles is for me, and I have not seen a single scriptural rebuttal of the verses that have been listed, saying we are and were. Lotsa reasons, but I reason from the scriptures, and I don't see anything by anyone that contradicts what those verses plainly(to me) say.

The purpose of debate or discussion is to present our view, but the scriptures have to be the basis of that.

I have more sympathy for the position that we are not yet saved(even tho I disagree) because our salvation is a work in progress and it is not complete untill we are in the ALL IN ALL- but someone will have to show me some verses, or information concerning translation before I can give the idea we have not yet been born again any serious consideration.

[Tom]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/newbirth.html

[CHB]

Doesnt really matter pertaining to our being born of God, since the scriptures say we have been.....but my guess is Jesus did not have to be born again since He was never "in Adam" or in need of redemption, and always believed the word of God and in fact, IS the incorruptible seed by which we are born again(1 Peter 1)

Being born again is not a destination, it is a starting point.

I agree.

CHB

[Tom]

I offer this information not as an argument but as an alternative to the popular belief. We all have different perspectives. I try to always consider all the possibilities.

Concordant Commentary on the New Testament  Page 143  John 3:1-24

"1 We have found an unholy temple, an unspiritual priesthood, and now we are introduced to an ignorant teacher! Intense application to a single text book for a whole life had not taught him the elements of the truth! Nicodemus, however, was impressed with the Lord's works, little as he understood His words. Like the rest, he takes literally what is figurative. He should have known from Ezekiel, the prophet, that Israel could not enter the kingdom without a new spirit (Eze.36:26).
     Spiritual regeneration, the one imperative condition, apart from which the kingdom cannot be entered, is utterly beyond his erudition. All that he considered vital was physical relationship with the favored nation.
     The Lord did not give out regeneration as good news, but as bad news. This is not the gospel, even for the Circumcision. The evangel is always concerned with God and His Christ, never with man and his needs or efforts. Of the latter nothing good can be said, no evangel can be formulated. The new birth is not an evangel in any sense. It makes a demand he has no means of meeting.
     For one like Nicodemus, expecting to enter the kingdom by physical generation, it would be quite a blow to demand spiritual regeneration. Men are utterly helpless in regard to their physical generation. They can do no more to accomplish their spiritual regeneration. It is the sovereign work of God's spirit.
     Searching as the figure is, it does not probe nearly so deeply into human helplessness as the truth for the present economy of God's grace. Now, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation (2 Co.5:17). In spirit, we skip the era of the kingdom, the renascence, and enter the new creation, over a thousand years later. A new birth will fit them for a life on earth during the millennial eon. The new creation fits us for our celestial destiny. They will receive a rejuvenation of the faculties, we will be changed at the resurrection and receive powers and capacities far beyond our present possibilities. Regeneration keeps company with repentance and baptism. The new creation accompanies the dispensation of the conciliation (2Co.5:18).

14 Nicodemus chose the cover of night, to save his reputation; for he was a proud Pharisee who would not care to have his name coupled with Christ's. How it must have humbled him to be compared with the serpent-bitten Israelites of the wilderness! Scholar that he was, he could not understand regeneration, but the most foolish could look away from themselves to the serpent and find life. This he undoubtedly did, for later he ventured to speak in Christ's behalf (7:50) and he came openly in the daytime to bring spices for His burial (19:39).

16 This gives us, not the measure, but the character of God's love-not "so", but "thus". Nor is it a thing of the past-"loved". The gift of His Only Begotten is an expression of His timeless love. Whenever man's love is mentioned it is circumscribed in time and extent. But God's love knows no bounds except those it imposes on itself. The character of the God Nicodemus knew confined Him within Israel's narrow pale, and represented Him as a Lawgiver, demanding, and giving only as a reward. Now His love breaks through the narrow confines of the favored nation and shows Him a munificent Giver, imparting eonian life to all who believe. This evangel is especially adapted to the coming eon, when Israel is once more the channel of blessing to the nations. Good as it is, it falls far below the outflow of favor for the present economy. Now we have not only eonian life, but justification and reconciliation. Now God's love urges Him to actually beseech His enemies to be conciliated to Him. Grace will flow out through Israel to the nations in the regeneration. Now it overflows to the nations in far more lavish measure. Compare the grace here revealed with that displayed in Romans and especially Ephesians. Life alone is promised here; there we have righteousness and peace and exaltation to celestial honors far beyond the range of the fullest interpretation of this passage.

17 While it was not the mission of Christ to condemn, yet, being the Light, He exposed the darkness. The priests and Pharisees were judged by their hatred of the Light."