Born Again?

[Caffus]

I was just blessed with the truth of UR March 24,2015...a few days ago. I've been reading my Bible and going to church most of my life. When I read John 3:3-3:8 a couple days ago and saw somthing I never heard before. Jesus said you must be born again before you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This I'm sure most of us have heard.  But read John 3:8 carefully "The wind blows where it wishes, and hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.  So is everyone who is born of the Spirit ."
What I get from this is you have to die physically to be born again in the Spirit, as He compares those born again to the wind. 
What do you think?  Is there any where else in the Bible that talks of being born again as meaning becoming a Christian?

[Lazarus Short]

I think it was Paul, and I don't know where, as I'm not a chapter & verse guy, but he said that a seed must fall to the ground and die before it sprouts in the new season (new age).  My own thinking is that we show forth the Fruit of the Spirit, and that Fruit contains the Seed, which becomes the new you at the resurrection - or rather, Christ in you, the Hope of Glory.

[watchman1706]

To be born again is to submit to Gods daily dealings and his using his chastisements as a way  for us to learn to overcome the nature of the
of the carnal man  which will enable you to put off the nature of man and put on Christ. This does not require a physical death, but an inward one. At that point we can enter the Kingdom of God and there are substitutes to obedience and submission to His will and purposes.

Perhaps this study will make things more clear.

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article2_sin_and_evil.html

Hope it covers the issues clear enough for you.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[micah7:9]

I believe(imo) that when a soul is found/chosen by the Savior the process of being born again begins, just as one is not saved yet but is being saved. Jesus Christ is the only one born again, born from above, born of the spirit, saved[healed, made whole] IMO we, all who believe have been conceived and are yet to be born. The word earnest is important. :2c:

[eaglesway]

I think this is the death that allows us to be born again....

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Some thoughts on John 3:3-8

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

When one repents and believes the gospel they are born again, they can see the kingdom because their eyes have been opened to the Lordship of Jesus and the veracity of the Logos. They become a new creation in Christ- reborn.

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

When a baby is born, the water breaks, the baby comes out and takes the first breath of life. We are born again by the "washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost"(Titus 3:4-7)- to worship in Spirit and truth, as Israel passed through the Red Sea(water) and was baptized in the pillar of cloud and fire(Spirit). This also refers to baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit(Acts 2:38)


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

All those who are led by the Spirit, they are the sons of God. The evidence of being born again is being led by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit. Those who are of the flesh are fleshly, carnal, the things of the Spirit are foolishness to them, they cannot enter the kingdom. "The carnal mind is enmity towards God" "to be carnally minded is death, the spiritual mind is life and peace"(1Cor somewhere). The spiritual mind does not operate by the tree of knowledge of good and evil, it operates by the tree of life, bearing fruit of the Spirit. We are born again into the spiritual mind/character of Christ(Have in you the attitude which was in Christ Jesus,Phil 2). We can enter(experience, appropriate, get the keys to) the kingdom.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

[micah7:9]

Just for my benefit, are you saying we have already BEEN born?

[sheila]

  have no fear little flock..the Father is pleased to give you the Kingdom.    But stay in Jerusalem until that which is promised is given.....and you

  are clothed with power.   and when they were all togather a stiff rushing wind come in...and as it was cloven tougnes of fire come

above each of their heads.  To me that is being born again' of the will of God from above...born of the Spirit[God's will]


    Blessed art thou Peter...for flesh and blood did not reveal this unto you...but the Father in heaven...

[eaglesway]

Just for my benefit, are you saying we have already BEEN born?

Yes, I was saying we are reborn through faith in Christ, by receiving the word of God implanted, by the breath of the Holy Spirit.

[micah7:9]

Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus."
Php 3:13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing - forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front - "

[sheila]

Paul had not yet resisted sin to the pouring out of his blood[death] the last enemy death.   sit at my right hand until I place

  all your enemies under your feet.   we sit in heavenly places with Him[conversation in heaven]

   we go on to perfection through the things we suffer.

    a child born in this world,after the manner of flesh......is certainly born...but not grown up and mature..nor possess perfect

   understanding..   so,too, those born of the spirit.

   the little children partake of flesh and blood,so,too,He likewise partook.

   suffer the little children to come unto me...for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these.

   if I tell you of earthly things and you do not comprehend..how then will you understand if I tell you of heavenly things.?

[eaglesway]

I think I see what you are saying Micah, but in my opinion that is not being born again. That is the resurrection from the dead- the adoption.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

I think he is saying that when the incorruptible seed is implanted we are born again, and that is what I think Jesus was saying, in John 3


And John in John 1....

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


but the resurrection IS the culmination of being born of God, imo- as in Rom 8, and the verses you listed

Romans 8 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

This refers to our placement as sons in the Father's house, the mature man, the overcomers reward, which all the children who have been born again have the right to, when they are mature enough, and have overcome. It is a process from birth, babe, child, son, mature man.

eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect(mature) man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

[Tom]

This is a concept that I perceive differently these days than I did years ago, and I always hesitate to share why because folks tend to get upset about it. I think Christ was speaking to Nicodemus specifically about Israel, and I don't think believers now are the true Israel. I think Paul's words were to the body of Christ who are mostly those of us of the nations. I think Israel will be spiritually regenerated when Christ returns to rule the kingdom of the heavens on earth in Jerusalem, but we're a new creation who will be given spiritual bodies for the celestial realm.

"So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!" (2 Corinthians 5:17)

[eaglesway]

So are you saying that in this specific instance Jesus was speaking only of Israel- or that in general Jesus was speaking only about Israel? Not sure I get what you mean here.

[Tom]

I think Jesus was referring to Israel in the coming eon when he spoke to Nicodemus about being "begotten anew," "born again," or "born from above" in the verses mentioned in the original post. I also think Jesus came to earth to minister to his people, the Jews, and much of what he said to them was meant to apply to them specifically but has been applied to those of us of the nations due to the confusion caused by orthodox theology. I don't believe we of the nations have become the so called true Israel even though I know that's a popular belief. I believe we of the nations have received the blessing of faith and are one in spirit with Israel who are temporarily blind to the truth of the evangel according to God's will, but I think some things written in scripture apply specifically to Israel not to those of us of the nations and vice versa. I think it's mostly in Paul's writings where we find God's blessings for those of us of the nations. I think Paul was chosen specifically by the risen Christ on the road to Damascus to be sent to those of us of the nations with the evangel, and he seems to be the perfect example of the power of grace because he formerly killed believers and then seems to have become the apostle that spread the evangel the most. Paul said we're a new creation not born again. I think there's a distinction, but I realize many will disagree. I think the Jews will get their promised kingdom of the heavens on earth ruled by Jesus in Jerusalem in the coming eon, but they've never looked forward to a celestial destiny. I think it's only those of us in the body of Christ who are mostly of the nations who have been told about the celestial realm.

[micah7:9]

I think I see what you are saying Micah, but in my opinion that is not being born again. That is the resurrection from the dead- the adoption.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

I think he is saying that when the incorruptible seed is implanted we are born again, and that is what I think Jesus was saying, in John 3


And John in John 1....

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


but the resurrection IS the culmination of being born of God, imo- as in Rom 8, and the verses you listed

Romans 8 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

This refers to our placement as sons in the Father's house, the mature man, the overcomers reward, which all the children who have been born again have the right to, when they are mature enough, and have overcome. It is a process from birth, babe, child, son, mature man.

eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect(mature) man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Well when was Jesus "born again?"
"I think I see what you are saying Micah, but in my opinion that is not being born again. That is the resurrection from the dead- the adoption. "

[micah7:9]

I think Jesus was referring to Israel in the coming eon when he spoke to Nicodemus about being "begotten anew," "born again," or "born from above" in the verses mentioned in the original post. I also think Jesus came to earth to minister to his people, the Jews, and much of what he said to them was meant to apply to them specifically but has been applied to those of us of the nations due to the confusion caused by orthodox theology. I don't believe we of the nations have become the so called true Israel even though I know that's a popular belief. I believe we of the nations have received the blessing of faith and are one in spirit with Israel who are temporarily blind to the truth of the evangel according to God's will, but I think some things written in scripture apply specifically to Israel not to those of us of the nations and vice versa. I think it's mostly in Paul's writings where we find God's blessings for those of us of the nations. I think Paul was chosen specifically by the risen Christ on the road to Damascus to be sent to those of us of the nations with the evangel, and he seems to be the perfect example of the power of grace because he formerly killed believers and then seems to have become the apostle that spread the evangel the most. Paul said we're a new creation not born again. I think there's a distinction, but I realize many will disagree. I think the Jews will get their promised kingdom of the heavens on earth ruled by Jesus in Jerusalem in the coming eon, but they've never looked forward to a celestial destiny. I think it's only those of us in the body of Christ who are mostly of the nations that have been told about the celestial realm.

Wow.

[sheila]

I think Jesus was 'born again' from above when the Holy spirit in the bodily form of a dove descended on Him.and remained..and God said ..

   'This is my Son,whom I love,with Him I am well pleased" 

    the dove was sent out on the 'new cleansed earth' after the flood in Noah's day........and returned unto the ARK with olive leaf

   after seven days it was sent out again...and remained.  Then Noah knew the flood- waters were dried up........

    I think the cleansed new earth/creature/creation/covenant in Christ......is.

        ...symbolized as the Holy spirit descending remaining in the bodily form   of a dove........the rainbow was also given as a sign

    of Noah's  covenant...whenever I bring clouds over the earth[we will see Him coming on the clouds] and the rainbow appears in the

clouds...I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters

become a flood to destroy all life.  Rev 4;3 a rainbow resembling an emerald encircled the throne Rev 10;1 then I saw another

mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud with a rainbow above his head.



     

[Lazarus Short]

I think Jesus was referring to Israel in the coming eon when he spoke to Nicodemus about being "begotten anew," "born again," or "born from above" in the verses mentioned in the original post. I also think Jesus came to earth to minister to his people, the Jews, and much of what he said to them was meant to apply to them specifically but has been applied to those of us of the nations due to the confusion caused by orthodox theology. I don't believe we of the nations have become the so called true Israel even though I know that's a popular belief. I believe we of the nations have received the blessing of faith and are one in spirit with Israel who are temporarily blind to the truth of the evangel according to God's will, but I think some things written in scripture apply specifically to Israel not to those of us of the nations and vice versa. I think it's mostly in Paul's writings where we find God's blessings for those of us of the nations. I think Paul was chosen specifically by the risen Christ on the road to Damascus to be sent to those of us of the nations with the evangel, and he seems to be the perfect example of the power of grace because he formerly killed believers and then seems to have become the apostle that spread the evangel the most. Paul said we're a new creation not born again. I think there's a distinction, but I realize many will disagree. I think the Jews will get their promised kingdom of the heavens on earth ruled by Jesus in Jerusalem in the coming eon, but they've never looked forward to a celestial destiny. I think it's only those of us in the body of Christ who are mostly of the nations who have been told about the celestial realm.

Of course, a lot of us "of the nations" are actually descended from one or more of the tribes of Israel.  It's a matter of knowing sacred history and then picking up the thread in secular history.  For instance, only a fraction of the Jews ever returned to the Land of Promise, most remaining behind in the Persian Empire (later the Parthian Empire in the time of Jesus, whose core population was of Israel).  So, if there were always more Jews outside Judah than in Judah, it is easy to understand Jesus when He said He had sheep which were not of this fold.  The other tribes were spread abroad in a similar way, easy to catch if you pay attention to the epistles.

[jabcat]

I think I see what you are saying Micah, but in my opinion that is not being born again. That is the resurrection from the dead- the adoption.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

I think he is saying that when the incorruptible seed is implanted we are born again, and that is what I think Jesus was saying, in John 3


And John in John 1....

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


but the resurrection IS the culmination of being born of God, imo- as in Rom 8, and the verses you listed

I agree.  Although there are likely some other things involved, I personally believe a main/primary application is when we are given faith to believe on Jesus, when we pass from darkness to life.  I believe the following from christianity.co.nz says it well;

"Being "born again" in the New Testament

Being "born again" in the New Testament refers to something God does when we turn to him with repentance and faith. The expressions "born again", "born of the Spirit", or "born of God" are used about 15 times in the New Testament of becoming, or being, a believer. It is one of John's favourite ways of describing a believer, but Peter uses it twice and Paul once.* John tells us how a Jewish religious leader, Nicodemus, came to Jesus at night. He probably came at night because it would be unseemly for one in his position to be seen associating with Jesus, who was considered to be a stirrer by the authorities. In the discussion that followed, Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). The Greek word translated "born again" could equally well be translated "born from above". What did he mean?

*John 1:13; 3:3, 5,6,7,8. Galatians 4:29. 1 Peter 1:3, 23. 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1; 4, 18.

It is not the turning over of a new leaf, but the receiving of a new life - not just a new start, but a new heart.
The Bible emphasises two things that God will do for us when we submit our lives to Jesus. The first thing he will do is to forgive our wrongdoing. Paul is fond of using the word "justify", which is a legal term meaning that we are acquitted of all the charges against us - declared innocent. "Since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1). Jesus paid for our sins on the cross and now credits to us his own perfect righteousness. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). A wonderful transaction!

The second thing [is that] the Holy Spirit [comes] to literally live within us, his Spirit uniting with our human spirit. This experience of receiving the Holy Spirit is what Jesus is talking about when he says we are to be "born again". In fact he went on to call it being "born of the Spirit" (John 3:5,8). This experience is also spoken of as a resurrection, "God...made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions" (Ephesians 2:4); as receiving eternal life, "God has given us eternal life" (1 John 5:11); or as being recreated, "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17). Before we receive the Holy Spirit there is a gulf between us and God. We are "dead in...transgressions and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). After we receive him we are united with him in an intimate relationship. We are "born" into his family - we have spiritual life - a new relationship with God, who is now "Father", and a new relationship with other believers who are our "brothers and sisters". We also have a new spiritual home which is "heaven".

It is interesting that, whereas John and Peter use the metaphor of being born into God's family for this experience of becoming a Christian, Paul prefers the idea of adoption. "You received the Spirit of adoption. And by him we cry...Father" (Romans 8:15 - literal translation). The first metaphor emphasises our union with God, sharing his nature by his Spirit within us. The metaphor of adoption puts the emphasis on our legal standing, with all the rights and privileges we share as children of God.

This experience of reconciliation with God and transformation, through spiritual birth, is made possible for us through the death and resurrection of Jesus. It was foretold 600 years before those events by the prophet Ezekiel, to whom God declared, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities...I will give you a new heart...I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees" (Ezekiel 36:25-27). It is not the turning over of a new leaf, but the receiving of a new life - not just a new start, but a new heart."

[micah7:9]

Nice thoughts. :2c:

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[Caffus]

Thank you everyone for your informative responses. Watchman that artical really helped me understand alot I didn't understand before thank you! I see now that there are more scriptures else where in the Bible speaking of being born again as accepting Gods truth and being willing to follow Christ. So then, I geuss I am a born again Universalist Christian. But when I read Jesus words comparing everyone who is born again in the Spirit to wind, I thought He was speaking of physical death.  Which, if He was would be Biblical evidence, it seems, that we are farther changed by God after physical death.  Which we as believers in UR already believe. Which I believe because none of us are perfect without any sin while we are alive in our physical mortal bodies and no sin shall enter the Kingdom of God.   :dunno2:

[marie glen]

hi! a lot of very good posts and info here.. I was curious about what I would find doing a search  of "born again" so I did a search on born again, born of God, born of the spirit, etc..

"Born of God"
John 1:12-13 King James Version (KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power (strong's #1849 "exousia" - "capacity") to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 4:7 Concordant Version
Beloved, we should be loving one another, for love is of God, and everyone who is loving God is begotten of God, and knows God.

1 John 5:1,4,18 Concordant Version
1 Everyone who is believing that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God. And everyone who is loving Him Who begets is loving him also who is begotten by Him.
4 for all that is begotten of God is conquering the world. And this is the conquest that conquers the world: our faith.
18 We are aware that everyone who has been begotten of God is not sinning, but he who is begotten of God is keeping himself, and the wicked one is not touching him.
"Born of the Spirit"

John 3:6,8 Concordant Version
6 That which is begotten by the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten by the spirit is spirit.
8 The blast is blowing where it wills, and the sound of it you are hearing, but you are not aware whence it is coming and where it is going. Thus is everyone who is begotten by the water and the spirit."

Galatians 4:29 King James Version (KJV)
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

1 Corinthians 15:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

Galatians 3:16; 1 Peter 1:23 Concordant Version
16 Now to Abraham the promises were declared, and to his Seed. He is not saying "And to seeds," as of many, but as of One: And to "your Seed," which is Christ.
29 Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment according to the promise.
23 having been regenerated, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, living and permanent,

1 John 2:29 Concordant Version
If you should be perceiving that He is just, you know that everyone also who is doing righteousness is begotten of Him.

Galatians 4:6 Concordant Version & 7(8) NKJV
6 Now, seeing that you are sons, God delegates the spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying "Abba! Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
(8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.)
   :smile: :2c:

[eaglesway]

Great buncha Word :o)

[micah7:9]

Easy birth easy? Is there a duration from conception? Is there travail?  :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:

We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again, as we are not yet powerful and invisible like "the WIND."  Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. :2c: