Tentmaker Forum

I was just blessed with the truth of UR March 24,2015...a few days ago. I've been reading my Bible and going to church most of my life. When I read John 3:3-3:8 a couple days ago and saw somthing I never heard before. Jesus said you must be born again before you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This I'm sure most of us have heard.  But read John 3:8 carefully "The wind blows where it wishes, and hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.  So is everyone who is born of the Spirit ."
What I get from this is you have to die physically to be born again in the Spirit, as He compares those born again to the wind. 
What do you think?  Is there any where else in the Bible that talks of being born again as meaning becoming a Christian?

I think it was Paul, and I don't know where, as I'm not a chapter & verse guy, but he said that a seed must fall to the ground and die before it sprouts in the new season (new age).  My own thinking is that we show forth the Fruit of the Spirit, and that Fruit contains the Seed, which becomes the new you at the resurrection - or rather, Christ in you, the Hope of Glory.

To be born again is to submit to Gods daily dealings and his using his chastisements as a way  for us to learn to overcome the nature of the
of the carnal man  which will enable you to put off the nature of man and put on Christ. This does not require a physical death, but an inward one. At that point we can enter the Kingdom of God and there are substitutes to obedience and submission to His will and purposes.

Perhaps this study will make things more clear.

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article2_sin_and_evil.html

Hope it covers the issues clear enough for you.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

I believe(imo) that when a soul is found/chosen by the Savior the process of being born again begins, just as one is not saved yet but is being saved. Jesus Christ is the only one born again, born from above, born of the spirit, saved[healed, made whole] IMO we, all who believe have been conceived and are yet to be born. The word earnest is important. :2c:

I think this is the death that allows us to be born again....

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Some thoughts on John 3:3-8

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

When one repents and believes the gospel they are born again, they can see the kingdom because their eyes have been opened to the Lordship of Jesus and the veracity of the Logos. They become a new creation in Christ- reborn.

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

When a baby is born, the water breaks, the baby comes out and takes the first breath of life. We are born again by the "washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost"(Titus 3:4-7)- to worship in Spirit and truth, as Israel passed through the Red Sea(water) and was baptized in the pillar of cloud and fire(Spirit). This also refers to baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit(Acts 2:38)


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

All those who are led by the Spirit, they are the sons of God. The evidence of being born again is being led by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit. Those who are of the flesh are fleshly, carnal, the things of the Spirit are foolishness to them, they cannot enter the kingdom. "The carnal mind is enmity towards God" "to be carnally minded is death, the spiritual mind is life and peace"(1Cor somewhere). The spiritual mind does not operate by the tree of knowledge of good and evil, it operates by the tree of life, bearing fruit of the Spirit. We are born again into the spiritual mind/character of Christ(Have in you the attitude which was in Christ Jesus,Phil 2). We can enter(experience, appropriate, get the keys to) the kingdom.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

Just for my benefit, are you saying we have already BEEN born?

  have no fear little flock..the Father is pleased to give you the Kingdom.    But stay in Jerusalem until that which is promised is given.....and you

  are clothed with power.   and when they were all togather a stiff rushing wind come in...and as it was cloven tougnes of fire come

above each of their heads.  To me that is being born again' of the will of God from above...born of the Spirit[God's will]


    Blessed art thou Peter...for flesh and blood did not reveal this unto you...but the Father in heaven...

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 31, 2015, 07:26:23 PM
Just for my benefit, are you saying we have already BEEN born?

Yes, I was saying we are reborn through faith in Christ, by receiving the word of God implanted, by the breath of the Holy Spirit.

Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus."
Php 3:13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing - forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front - "

Paul had not yet resisted sin to the pouring out of his blood[death] the last enemy death.   sit at my right hand until I place

  all your enemies under your feet.   we sit in heavenly places with Him[conversation in heaven]

   we go on to perfection through the things we suffer.

    a child born in this world,after the manner of flesh......is certainly born...but not grown up and mature..nor possess perfect

   understanding..   so,too, those born of the spirit.

   the little children partake of flesh and blood,so,too,He likewise partook.

   suffer the little children to come unto me...for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these.

   if I tell you of earthly things and you do not comprehend..how then will you understand if I tell you of heavenly things.?

I think I see what you are saying Micah, but in my opinion that is not being born again. That is the resurrection from the dead- the adoption.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

I think he is saying that when the incorruptible seed is implanted we are born again, and that is what I think Jesus was saying, in John 3


And John in John 1....

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


but the resurrection IS the culmination of being born of God, imo- as in Rom 8, and the verses you listed

Romans 8 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

This refers to our placement as sons in the Father's house, the mature man, the overcomers reward, which all the children who have been born again have the right to, when they are mature enough, and have overcome. It is a process from birth, babe, child, son, mature man.

eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect(mature) man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

This is a concept that I perceive differently these days than I did years ago, and I always hesitate to share why because folks tend to get upset about it. I think Christ was speaking to Nicodemus specifically about Israel, and I don't think believers now are the true Israel. I think Paul's words were to the body of Christ who are mostly those of us of the nations. I think Israel will be spiritually regenerated when Christ returns to rule the kingdom of the heavens on earth in Jerusalem, but we're a new creation who will be given spiritual bodies for the celestial realm.

"So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!" (2 Corinthians 5:17)

So are you saying that in this specific instance Jesus was speaking only of Israel- or that in general Jesus was speaking only about Israel? Not sure I get what you mean here.

I think Jesus was referring to Israel in the coming eon when he spoke to Nicodemus about being "begotten anew," "born again," or "born from above" in the verses mentioned in the original post. I also think Jesus came to earth to minister to his people, the Jews, and much of what he said to them was meant to apply to them specifically but has been applied to those of us of the nations due to the confusion caused by orthodox theology. I don't believe we of the nations have become the so called true Israel even though I know that's a popular belief. I believe we of the nations have received the blessing of faith and are one in spirit with Israel who are temporarily blind to the truth of the evangel according to God's will, but I think some things written in scripture apply specifically to Israel not to those of us of the nations and vice versa. I think it's mostly in Paul's writings where we find God's blessings for those of us of the nations. I think Paul was chosen specifically by the risen Christ on the road to Damascus to be sent to those of us of the nations with the evangel, and he seems to be the perfect example of the power of grace because he formerly killed believers and then seems to have become the apostle that spread the evangel the most. Paul said we're a new creation not born again. I think there's a distinction, but I realize many will disagree. I think the Jews will get their promised kingdom of the heavens on earth ruled by Jesus in Jerusalem in the coming eon, but they've never looked forward to a celestial destiny. I think it's only those of us in the body of Christ who are mostly of the nations who have been told about the celestial realm.

Quote from: eaglesway on March 31, 2015, 08:01:52 PM
I think I see what you are saying Micah, but in my opinion that is not being born again. That is the resurrection from the dead- the adoption.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

I think he is saying that when the incorruptible seed is implanted we are born again, and that is what I think Jesus was saying, in John 3


And John in John 1....

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


but the resurrection IS the culmination of being born of God, imo- as in Rom 8, and the verses you listed

Romans 8 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

This refers to our placement as sons in the Father's house, the mature man, the overcomers reward, which all the children who have been born again have the right to, when they are mature enough, and have overcome. It is a process from birth, babe, child, son, mature man.

eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect(mature) man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Well when was Jesus "born again?"
"I think I see what you are saying Micah, but in my opinion that is not being born again. That is the resurrection from the dead- the adoption. "

Quote from: Tom on March 31, 2015, 11:54:32 PM
I think Jesus was referring to Israel in the coming eon when he spoke to Nicodemus about being "begotten anew," "born again," or "born from above" in the verses mentioned in the original post. I also think Jesus came to earth to minister to his people, the Jews, and much of what he said to them was meant to apply to them specifically but has been applied to those of us of the nations due to the confusion caused by orthodox theology. I don't believe we of the nations have become the so called true Israel even though I know that's a popular belief. I believe we of the nations have received the blessing of faith and are one in spirit with Israel who are temporarily blind to the truth of the evangel according to God's will, but I think some things written in scripture apply specifically to Israel not to those of us of the nations and vice versa. I think it's mostly in Paul's writings where we find God's blessings for those of us of the nations. I think Paul was chosen specifically by the risen Christ on the road to Damascus to be sent to those of us of the nations with the evangel, and he seems to be the perfect example of the power of grace because he formerly killed believers and then seems to have become the apostle that spread the evangel the most. Paul said we're a new creation not born again. I think there's a distinction, but I realize many will disagree. I think the Jews will get their promised kingdom of the heavens on earth ruled by Jesus in Jerusalem in the coming eon, but they've never looked forward to a celestial destiny. I think it's only those of us in the body of Christ who are mostly of the nations that have been told about the celestial realm.

Wow.

I think Jesus was 'born again' from above when the Holy spirit in the bodily form of a dove descended on Him.and remained..and God said ..

   'This is my Son,whom I love,with Him I am well pleased" 

    the dove was sent out on the 'new cleansed earth' after the flood in Noah's day........and returned unto the ARK with olive leaf

   after seven days it was sent out again...and remained.  Then Noah knew the flood- waters were dried up........

    I think the cleansed new earth/creature/creation/covenant in Christ......is.

        ...symbolized as the Holy spirit descending remaining in the bodily form   of a dove........the rainbow was also given as a sign

    of Noah's  covenant...whenever I bring clouds over the earth[we will see Him coming on the clouds] and the rainbow appears in the

clouds...I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters

become a flood to destroy all life.  Rev 4;3 a rainbow resembling an emerald encircled the throne Rev 10;1 then I saw another

mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud with a rainbow above his head.



     

Quote from: Tom on March 31, 2015, 11:54:32 PM
I think Jesus was referring to Israel in the coming eon when he spoke to Nicodemus about being "begotten anew," "born again," or "born from above" in the verses mentioned in the original post. I also think Jesus came to earth to minister to his people, the Jews, and much of what he said to them was meant to apply to them specifically but has been applied to those of us of the nations due to the confusion caused by orthodox theology. I don't believe we of the nations have become the so called true Israel even though I know that's a popular belief. I believe we of the nations have received the blessing of faith and are one in spirit with Israel who are temporarily blind to the truth of the evangel according to God's will, but I think some things written in scripture apply specifically to Israel not to those of us of the nations and vice versa. I think it's mostly in Paul's writings where we find God's blessings for those of us of the nations. I think Paul was chosen specifically by the risen Christ on the road to Damascus to be sent to those of us of the nations with the evangel, and he seems to be the perfect example of the power of grace because he formerly killed believers and then seems to have become the apostle that spread the evangel the most. Paul said we're a new creation not born again. I think there's a distinction, but I realize many will disagree. I think the Jews will get their promised kingdom of the heavens on earth ruled by Jesus in Jerusalem in the coming eon, but they've never looked forward to a celestial destiny. I think it's only those of us in the body of Christ who are mostly of the nations who have been told about the celestial realm.

Of course, a lot of us "of the nations" are actually descended from one or more of the tribes of Israel.  It's a matter of knowing sacred history and then picking up the thread in secular history.  For instance, only a fraction of the Jews ever returned to the Land of Promise, most remaining behind in the Persian Empire (later the Parthian Empire in the time of Jesus, whose core population was of Israel).  So, if there were always more Jews outside Judah than in Judah, it is easy to understand Jesus when He said He had sheep which were not of this fold.  The other tribes were spread abroad in a similar way, easy to catch if you pay attention to the epistles.

Quote from: eaglesway on March 31, 2015, 08:01:52 PM
I think I see what you are saying Micah, but in my opinion that is not being born again. That is the resurrection from the dead- the adoption.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

I think he is saying that when the incorruptible seed is implanted we are born again, and that is what I think Jesus was saying, in John 3


And John in John 1....

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


but the resurrection IS the culmination of being born of God, imo- as in Rom 8, and the verses you listed

I agree.  Although there are likely some other things involved, I personally believe a main/primary application is when we are given faith to believe on Jesus, when we pass from darkness to life.  I believe the following from christianity.co.nz says it well;

"Being "born again" in the New Testament

Being "born again" in the New Testament refers to something God does when we turn to him with repentance and faith. The expressions "born again", "born of the Spirit", or "born of God" are used about 15 times in the New Testament of becoming, or being, a believer. It is one of John's favourite ways of describing a believer, but Peter uses it twice and Paul once.* John tells us how a Jewish religious leader, Nicodemus, came to Jesus at night. He probably came at night because it would be unseemly for one in his position to be seen associating with Jesus, who was considered to be a stirrer by the authorities. In the discussion that followed, Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). The Greek word translated "born again" could equally well be translated "born from above". What did he mean?

*John 1:13; 3:3, 5,6,7,8. Galatians 4:29. 1 Peter 1:3, 23. 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1; 4, 18.

It is not the turning over of a new leaf, but the receiving of a new life - not just a new start, but a new heart.
The Bible emphasises two things that God will do for us when we submit our lives to Jesus. The first thing he will do is to forgive our wrongdoing. Paul is fond of using the word "justify", which is a legal term meaning that we are acquitted of all the charges against us - declared innocent. "Since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1). Jesus paid for our sins on the cross and now credits to us his own perfect righteousness. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). A wonderful transaction!

The second thing [is that] the Holy Spirit [comes] to literally live within us, his Spirit uniting with our human spirit. This experience of receiving the Holy Spirit is what Jesus is talking about when he says we are to be "born again". In fact he went on to call it being "born of the Spirit" (John 3:5,8). This experience is also spoken of as a resurrection, "God...made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions" (Ephesians 2:4); as receiving eternal life, "God has given us eternal life" (1 John 5:11); or as being recreated, "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17). Before we receive the Holy Spirit there is a gulf between us and God. We are "dead in...transgressions and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). After we receive him we are united with him in an intimate relationship. We are "born" into his family - we have spiritual life - a new relationship with God, who is now "Father", and a new relationship with other believers who are our "brothers and sisters". We also have a new spiritual home which is "heaven".

It is interesting that, whereas John and Peter use the metaphor of being born into God's family for this experience of becoming a Christian, Paul prefers the idea of adoption. "You received the Spirit of adoption. And by him we cry...Father" (Romans 8:15 - literal translation). The first metaphor emphasises our union with God, sharing his nature by his Spirit within us. The metaphor of adoption puts the emphasis on our legal standing, with all the rights and privileges we share as children of God.

This experience of reconciliation with God and transformation, through spiritual birth, is made possible for us through the death and resurrection of Jesus. It was foretold 600 years before those events by the prophet Ezekiel, to whom God declared, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities...I will give you a new heart...I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees" (Ezekiel 36:25-27). It is not the turning over of a new leaf, but the receiving of a new life - not just a new start, but a new heart."

Nice thoughts. :2c:

 :thumbsup:

Thank you everyone for your informative responses. Watchman that artical really helped me understand alot I didn't understand before thank you! I see now that there are more scriptures else where in the Bible speaking of being born again as accepting Gods truth and being willing to follow Christ. So then, I geuss I am a born again Universalist Christian. But when I read Jesus words comparing everyone who is born again in the Spirit to wind, I thought He was speaking of physical death.  Which, if He was would be Biblical evidence, it seems, that we are farther changed by God after physical death.  Which we as believers in UR already believe. Which I believe because none of us are perfect without any sin while we are alive in our physical mortal bodies and no sin shall enter the Kingdom of God.   :dunno2:

hi! a lot of very good posts and info here.. I was curious about what I would find doing a search  of "born again" so I did a search on born again, born of God, born of the spirit, etc..

"Born of God"
John 1:12-13 King James Version (KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power (strong's #1849 "exousia" - "capacity") to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 4:7 Concordant Version
Beloved, we should be loving one another, for love is of God, and everyone who is loving God is begotten of God, and knows God.

1 John 5:1,4,18 Concordant Version
1 Everyone who is believing that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God. And everyone who is loving Him Who begets is loving him also who is begotten by Him.
4 for all that is begotten of God is conquering the world. And this is the conquest that conquers the world: our faith.
18 We are aware that everyone who has been begotten of God is not sinning, but he who is begotten of God is keeping himself, and the wicked one is not touching him.
"Born of the Spirit"

John 3:6,8 Concordant Version
6 That which is begotten by the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten by the spirit is spirit.
8 The blast is blowing where it wills, and the sound of it you are hearing, but you are not aware whence it is coming and where it is going. Thus is everyone who is begotten by the water and the spirit."

Galatians 4:29 King James Version (KJV)
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

1 Corinthians 15:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

Galatians 3:16; 1 Peter 1:23 Concordant Version
16 Now to Abraham the promises were declared, and to his Seed. He is not saying "And to seeds," as of many, but as of One: And to "your Seed," which is Christ.
29 Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment according to the promise.
23 having been regenerated, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, living and permanent,

1 John 2:29 Concordant Version
If you should be perceiving that He is just, you know that everyone also who is doing righteousness is begotten of Him.

Galatians 4:6 Concordant Version & 7(8) NKJV
6 Now, seeing that you are sons, God delegates the spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying "Abba! Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
(8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.)
   :smile: :2c:

Great buncha Word :o)

Easy birth easy? Is there a duration from conception? Is there travail?  :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:

We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again, as we are not yet powerful and invisible like "the WIND."  Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. :2c:

"If any man be in Christ Jeus, he is a new creature"


1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.


1 Peter 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.



Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Actually the translation of John 3:8 is a little shaky. The word for wind is simply "pneuma" which is translated spirit virtually everywhere else(160 times).

This strikes me as a poetic device and an interpretation more than a translation. Where the Concordant gets "blast", I don't know- it makes no sense to me, since the Concordant doesnt routinely translate "pneuma" as "blast".

It should read, "the spirit blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it.............". There is no reason it should be changed to wind that I can see.

You see what seem to be some strange words in the Concordant Version sometimes, but Merriam-Webster online says the definition of "blast" is "a mass of air that moves very quickly and forcefully."

The Concordant Literal New Testament Keyword Concordance says "spirit," from the Greek "pneuma," literally "blow-effect," is "by implication the imperceptible, intangible power of action, life and intelligence," but, because it literally means "blow-effect," it's also translated as "blast" in two places. Here's the other one.

"And suddenly there came out of heaven a blare, even as of a violent, carrying blast, and it fills the whole house where they were sitting." (Acts 2:2)

See the attachment for a comparison of translations.

I think it's also interesting that, although we may think of God forming Adam from the soil and giving him spirit to become a living soul, scripture says God blew into his nostrils the breath of life.

"Yahweh Elohim formed the human out of the soil from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and the human became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

That's the "blow-effect" that is by implication "spirit." So it seems that it may be legit to use the word "pneuma" either way according to context. Of course, because God is literally "spirit," even a "blast" from him is still "spirit," right?

PS: I know some folks here are more into the Hebrew language interpretation of things. Because I'm not aware of a Concordant Version Hebrew concordance, this is one of the few times I checked Marie's favorite Strong's Concordance and confirmed what I thought I remembered that the Hebrew word "ruach" is also defined as "breath, wind, spirit."  That's Strong's Hebrew number 7307.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Blast seems a little off to me, but so does 'veteran' for geron(old) in john 3:4. I guess I would just like to see consistency in translation of common words, in any version.

Quote from: micah7:9 on April 01, 2015, 03:29:50 PM

We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. :2c:

I know you're a scripture believing man, so since the scriptures say different, it seems to me that now the question becomes "what does it mean, how does it fit/reconcile with other scriptures, how do we understand it, etc.".


New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

New Living Translation
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


Holman Christian Standard Bible
For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift--

International Standard Version
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.


American Standard Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

English Revised Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Weymouth New Testament
For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--

World English Bible
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Young's Literal Translation
for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,



I believe eaglesway hit on the points in his "holiness" thread.  When we're given faith to believe, God indwells us and gives us HIS righteousness (RIGHT STANDING, made right).  Then we grow or stumble or both, live in surrender or rebellion, but still a new born child of God.  Done deal. 

We've been around this one before :)  I'm sure I'm missing some things, but here's my through a glass darkly view.  I've been wanting to revisit this, and in fact have been thinking about it again.  I didn't used to believe it, and dismissed it the first time I heard it (or thought I did, because it must have planted a seed).  I see it in 3, and I believe Paul spoke of it that way.  Also, I think it fits with "is, was, and will be".   

1 When one believes the spirit is saved, born from above/born again spiritually.  New life. Irrevocable, as "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable".  SavED (past tense).  Sealed with the Spirit unto that day.  What day?*

2 Then as we walk through this learning experience called life, we are led and have many opportunities to "grow in grace in knowledge".  I see that as our soul being saved - who we are, our attitudes, our will being (or not) conformed to His, our thoughts being put under His control, etc.  Has to do with "running the race, fighting a good fight", etc...Rewards, crown of righteousness.  Some will gain, some will lose and end up only standing before Him with their spirit saved, but without any other spiritual "accomplishments" or gaining any rewards.

3 Then, when we are finally fully made whole/healed/saved, on *that DAY.  That day when our bodies are saved, i.e., given immortality, living and reigning with Him in our spiritual body as Paul calls it.  The redemption of our bodies ("there are earthly bodies and there are spiritual/heavenly bodies").

So once again :), I personally see it as saved, being saved, and will be saved.  Paul said we're saved spirit, soul, and body. 

Blessings, all have a great day in the Lord.

I agree about consistency in translation. I think the Concordant Version actually does a better job of that than most. The thing that bugs me about it is some of the words in King James style English. I'd like to see them come up with a modernized version one of these days, but I ain't holding my breath. The first thing I think they should do is combine the Hebrew and Greek scriptures into one book. They finally got a book out of the Hebrew scriptures. I still think they're the most accurate translation I know of. I know some folks like other versions, but I'm sticking with them unless I see something better.

Quote from: micah7:9 on April 01, 2015, 03:29:50 PM
Easy birth easy? Is there a duration from conception? Is there travail?  :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:

We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again, as we are not yet powerful and invisible like "the WIND."  Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. :2c:

John 3:8  - NKJV
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

I think this means those born of the Spirit are led of the Spirit, so who, except the Spirit of God knows where they are going.. or `where they are coming from`.. I know most who know me, but do not yet know the Lord, often wonder where the heck I am coming from, or just where I am headed in my reasoning.. (Some who do know the Lord may wonder this about me too  :laughing7: ..which is likely true of all of us..)

Concordant Version
8 The blast (breath of God?) is blowing where it wills, and the sound of it you are hearing, but you are not aware whence it is coming and where it is going. Thus is everyone who is begotten by the water and the spirit."
      :smile: :Peace2:

"1 When one believes the spirit is saved, born from above/born again spiritually.  New life. Irrevocable, as "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable".  SavED (past tense). "(Jabcat)
Then you say,  "3 Then, when we are finally fully made whole/healed/saved, on *that DAY.(Jabcat)

We are saved "past tense" that is something finished complete, then "when we are finally made whole/healed/saved * on that DAY" How can it be "past tense" done finished when it is not that day?

"I see it in 3, and I believe Paul spoke of it that way.  Also, I think it fits with "is, was, and will be".  (Jabcat)

If you speak of Paul speaking in 3 from  1Th 5:23, my question, is there another verse or witness that speaks of this body, soul, and spirit?  I have searched and come up empty. There was much Greek mythology in the time of the NT. And the "soul" was much debated and with much philosophy.    Matt. 28:19 is a staple in Christian theology, but I have yet to find a verse to bear witness, and have found no such baptizing done by anyone in the NT.  Yet that is the sandy foundation of Christian theology.

I believe  1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  "that DAY" is not here yet.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my dearly-loved friends, as I have always found you obedient, labour earnestly with fear and trembling--not merely as though I were present with you, but much more now since I am absent from you--labour earnestly, I say, to make sure of your own salvation.
Php 2:13  For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire.

Quote from: micah7:9 on April 01, 2015, 11:40:41 PM

I believe  1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  "that DAY" is not here yet.

Thanks for the kind reply.  I'll look at more of what you wrote later.  The one thing I'll comment on now is, I don't believe the above verse disagrees with what I said, because I believe that's speaking of the day when ALL are saved.  When every knee bows and every tongue confesses.  I believe those already saved/born again/redeemed/born from above/given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior     in this lifetime, have already done that.  The ecclesia, elect.  The rest will do so in due time, according to the verse above.   More later when I have time to digest :)

sorry, i'm hitting this between other things.  quickly

without looking them up (I believe they are NUMEROUS and scattered throughout the scriptures) I believe there is much evidence for a specific event,  i.e., one being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  Then other scriptures that talk about that in past tense, a done deal, completed.     

Then further, I believe there are other scriptures that talk about the continuing work of growing, changing, being brought into His likeness - Paul talks of it as maturity, and of walking worthy of the high calling.  Notice, the calling already occurred.  The becoming a child of God already happened ("as many as believe on His name")...but then we're to go forward, dying to self, following Him, pressing forward, working toward the crown of righteousness LAID up for us (not, WILL BE laid up for us).

Then thirdly, all the scrips about that Day when our bodies are redeemed, corruptible putting on incorruptible, earthly body to spiritual/heavenly body.

1,2,3.   Done, being done, will be done.

If anyone sees it differently, I understand.  I may change some of my views as I go and hopefully understand a little better.  It's just to specifically say "there is no saved past tense" is IMO, just not true (as shown by the Ephesians 2:8 scripture quoted earlier).  So again then for me, the question is, what does it mean, how does it fit together, how is it reconciled, etc., and I'm sharing my best shot at it right now.  I'm sure we have many different perspectives, with many having little pieces of the whole.   :bigGrin: 

p.s.  maybe don't get distracted by "#2" being the salvation of the soul.  Maybe there's an even better way to describe that.  It's just that I believe scriptures support those saved in this life being already made in right standing with God by the blood of Jesus applied through belief on Him/His name.  Saved.   Then there's the process of growing, changing, conforming, being made in His likeness - with His help and grace, learning to "walk the walk" or "walk it out" - not having to do with what's already been settled when we believed.  But having to do with obedience, reward, maturity ("sonship"?  don't get distracted by that either, I'm searching for the right description/name of the process that I believe is described in scripture).  A different and ongoing process than this - "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"  I Jn 1:12.

I believe all of what you posted, but please see that in all you posted you even say it is a work(birth) in progress. Why is the progress and process, professed as a completed thing. I am saved by grace...I believe that...it is my hope....I am born again...I believe that and hold to that, still I look and see myself just not finished. Should you see your self as complete and done, I can say nothing. It is my belief, hope, and faith that I will be...but I just don't see myself as my Elder Brother.....still I hold to the Word

1 John 3:1-3 1 Behold, what manner of love, the Father hath bestowed upon us—that, children of God, we should be called,—and such we are! Therefore, the world understandeth us not, because it understood not him. 2 Beloved! now, are we, children of God; and, not yet, hath it been made manifest, what we shall be,—We know that, if it should be made manifest, like unto him, shall we be, because we shall see him, just as he is. 3 And, whosoever hath this hope on him, is purifying himself, just as, He, is pure. :HeartThrob:

I agree brother.  He's given us grace, mercy, and His righteousness.  None of our own doing.  Now He's in the process of molding us into His image - day by day.  Neither do I as yet see myself as having attained anything.  All I have is His gift.  He will make us COMPLETELY whole on that day.  We look for a city.   

"Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith."   "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it".   Yet He has already sealed us [believers] unto that day.   :2c:

""Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith."   "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it".   Yet He has already sealed us [believers] unto that day.   :2c:"

This I also believe with all hope, yes we are sealed, GLORY.......and as Paul we run the race with hope. A good long distance runner learns to breath and pace himself......... and wait. It ain't over yet.:2c: :HeartThrob:

Paul said in Col.3:1, If ye then be risin with Christ,  We are spiritually sitting in Christ on the right hand of the Father. I believe if that is true then I am saved/born again. If I have died was  buried and resurrected I have been born again spiritually.

CHB

Being born again is the beginning.

Was Jesus born again? When? I'm asking :HeartThrob:
Joh 20:17 which is the term for "Teacher.Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Doesnt really matter pertaining to our being born of God, since the scriptures say we have been.....but my guess is Jesus did not have to be born again since He was never "in Adam" or in need of redemption, and always believed the word of God and in fact, IS the incorruptible seed by which we are born again(1 Peter 1)

Being born again is not a destination, it is a starting point.

John...I think because the little children were partakers of flesh and blood,and he likewise partook....He was born again..for He is

  the firstborn of the dead.[Lord of living and dead]  son of man/son of God] I was alive,I died..I live forever

Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2015, 06:02:19 PM
Doesnt really matter pertaining to our being born of God, since the scriptures say we have been.....but my guess is Jesus did not have to be born again since He was never "in Adam" or in need of redemption, and always believed the word of God and in fact, IS the incorruptible seed by which we are born again(1 Peter 1)

Being born again is not a destination, it is a starting point.

Never really thought of asking my question because I never thought of the subject till this post.

"Doesnt really matter pertaining to our being born of God, since the scriptures say we have been...." I agree, we are born of God, no debate.

"but my guess is Jesus did not have to be born again since He was never "in Adam"

My thoughts  Ro. 1:3 "made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Gal. 4:4 "God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, " Heb. 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

" or in need of redemption, and always believed the word of God and in fact, IS the incorruptible seed by which we are born again(1 Peter 1)"

I agree as well, but did He not come as a human being(Adam) to accomplish what He did?
But the "flesh" was certainly in need of redemption . 2Co 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."

"Being born again is not a destination, it is a starting point."

And there you have it, a STARTING point, we are BEING born again [born from above].
Joh 6:38 for I have descended from heaven, not that I should be doing My will, but the will of Him Who sends Me."
Is Jesus not born from above.... again at His resurrection[a standing up again]
Jesus was a very special man, but He was a man for some 30 years, our elder brother, our example, He taught and instructed by Word and example that we are to follow. He was the Son of God, yet so was Adam. Did He tell us to do something that He would not Himself do? I believe His example of being born again was consummated on the tree with "It is finished." And in my opinion it very well could be the destination. I welcome, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness ...............and rebuke. :HeartThrob:

 I agree with Micah......

         the Word of God..[let us make man in our image] come in flesh...expeirenced  death[fell to the earth and died] was raised up, and

bears  much fruit in heaven[draws all men unto himself]

     the announcement this is my son..after the baptism in the Jordan[descend]..John's witness/testimony of the dove descending as

   Jesus come up out of the Jordan,   and remaining/breast of heaven offered as High Priest's portion/Jesus ministry of atonement/Lamb

slain..   the people's language being changed to a pure language=tongues of fire.......no longer blessing and cursing[[tokogae/dragon

  given power over all nations/TOngues=tokogae/accuser of the brethern= satan cast out of heaven/lost his position as accusor

  due to the Lamb of God which takes away all their sin/all the fruit/all men drawn


   ...for I will not always find fault..for then even the spirit would fail before me.

   it seems to all fit to me.

Sorry Micah, I wasnt trying to say, "No debate". I should have said, "Doesnt matter to me". I am trying to say is, if the scriptures say we are/were born again, that settles is for me, and I have not seen a single scriptural rebuttal of the verses that have been listed, saying we are and were. Lotsa reasons, but I reason from the scriptures, and I don't see anything by anyone that contradicts what those verses plainly(to me) say.

The purpose of debate or discussion is to present our view, but the scriptures have to be the basis of that.

I have more sympathy for the position that we are not yet saved(even tho I disagree) because our salvation is a work in progress and it is not complete untill we are in the ALL IN ALL- but someone will have to show me some verses, or information concerning translation before I can give the idea we have not yet been born again any serious consideration.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/newbirth.html

Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2015, 06:02:19 PM
Doesnt really matter pertaining to our being born of God, since the scriptures say we have been.....but my guess is Jesus did not have to be born again since He was never "in Adam" or in need of redemption, and always believed the word of God and in fact, IS the incorruptible seed by which we are born again(1 Peter 1)

Being born again is not a destination, it is a starting point.

I agree.

CHB

I offer this information not as an argument but as an alternative to the popular belief. We all have different perspectives. I try to always consider all the possibilities.

Concordant Commentary on the New Testament  Page 143  John 3:1-24

"1 We have found an unholy temple, an unspiritual priesthood, and now we are introduced to an ignorant teacher! Intense application to a single text book for a whole life had not taught him the elements of the truth! Nicodemus, however, was impressed with the Lord's works, little as he understood His words. Like the rest, he takes literally what is figurative. He should have known from Ezekiel, the prophet, that Israel could not enter the kingdom without a new spirit (Eze.36:26).
     Spiritual regeneration, the one imperative condition, apart from which the kingdom cannot be entered, is utterly beyond his erudition. All that he considered vital was physical relationship with the favored nation.
     The Lord did not give out regeneration as good news, but as bad news. This is not the gospel, even for the Circumcision. The evangel is always concerned with God and His Christ, never with man and his needs or efforts. Of the latter nothing good can be said, no evangel can be formulated. The new birth is not an evangel in any sense. It makes a demand he has no means of meeting.
     For one like Nicodemus, expecting to enter the kingdom by physical generation, it would be quite a blow to demand spiritual regeneration. Men are utterly helpless in regard to their physical generation. They can do no more to accomplish their spiritual regeneration. It is the sovereign work of God's spirit.
     Searching as the figure is, it does not probe nearly so deeply into human helplessness as the truth for the present economy of God's grace. Now, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation (2 Co.5:17). In spirit, we skip the era of the kingdom, the renascence, and enter the new creation, over a thousand years later. A new birth will fit them for a life on earth during the millennial eon. The new creation fits us for our celestial destiny. They will receive a rejuvenation of the faculties, we will be changed at the resurrection and receive powers and capacities far beyond our present possibilities. Regeneration keeps company with repentance and baptism. The new creation accompanies the dispensation of the conciliation (2Co.5:18).

14 Nicodemus chose the cover of night, to save his reputation; for he was a proud Pharisee who would not care to have his name coupled with Christ's. How it must have humbled him to be compared with the serpent-bitten Israelites of the wilderness! Scholar that he was, he could not understand regeneration, but the most foolish could look away from themselves to the serpent and find life. This he undoubtedly did, for later he ventured to speak in Christ's behalf (7:50) and he came openly in the daytime to bring spices for His burial (19:39).

16 This gives us, not the measure, but the character of God's love-not "so", but "thus". Nor is it a thing of the past-"loved". The gift of His Only Begotten is an expression of His timeless love. Whenever man's love is mentioned it is circumscribed in time and extent. But God's love knows no bounds except those it imposes on itself. The character of the God Nicodemus knew confined Him within Israel's narrow pale, and represented Him as a Lawgiver, demanding, and giving only as a reward. Now His love breaks through the narrow confines of the favored nation and shows Him a munificent Giver, imparting eonian life to all who believe. This evangel is especially adapted to the coming eon, when Israel is once more the channel of blessing to the nations. Good as it is, it falls far below the outflow of favor for the present economy. Now we have not only eonian life, but justification and reconciliation. Now God's love urges Him to actually beseech His enemies to be conciliated to Him. Grace will flow out through Israel to the nations in the regeneration. Now it overflows to the nations in far more lavish measure. Compare the grace here revealed with that displayed in Romans and especially Ephesians. Life alone is promised here; there we have righteousness and peace and exaltation to celestial honors far beyond the range of the fullest interpretation of this passage.

17 While it was not the mission of Christ to condemn, yet, being the Light, He exposed the darkness. The priests and Pharisees were judged by their hatred of the Light."

 can't say that I agree with that Tom.  Jesus said, 'Now,My Kingdom is not from this source"   satan possessed all the kingdoms of

  the world.  thus Prince of this world cometh

.and for one act of worship could give them to whomever he wanted.  so,the way I see it..the mountain that fills the earth..

  and the scriptures that speak of 'let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and learn His ways" speaks of celestial?Jerusalem above"

     Israel was born again as a nation in troubleous times............and as yet still typify's Haagar and her children in bondage......

   yet,the recieving of them back in[the salvation of All] is life from the dead...and the earth must give up her dead. cursed is the earth

for thy sake,Adam.

   the foundation of this earth is dust...the foundations[12] of the world/earth to come/new earth/heaven creation/Jerusalem above..are

precious stones....

  our new celestial bodies are made of precious stones/not dust...rise! shake yourself free of the dust/put on your garments  of splendour.


      New wine is put in new wineskins...the new covenant/new spirit creation is put in[clothed] with a new vessel..and it is not clay/dust

  of this earth...Adam/Edom red clay. clothed in scarlet wool/sheep for the slaughter/granted to be clothed in clean white linen=Bride

  city coming down to earth/Celestial city descends [those who preceded in death with Him..meet the Lord in the air

.flesh and blood can not inherit through the new covenant..because God bound up all men

in disobedience[the flesh is weak] in order to show mercy unto all  TOL is spiritual/celestial...tokogae is terrestial..........
.

   Paul spoke about his tent/body of death being torn down..and him not wanting to be unclothed....

   the dust of the earth[terrestial body] is the serpents food...Christ's heel is bruised of it when He is lifted up..but the serpent's head

  is crushed beneath His feet.    I will wipe the earth free of both man and beast...the wicked will only have a heap of rubble.

    when man no longer resides in the earth..the serpent will no longer have any food[our weakness of flesh made of dust]

       the 12 tribes of Israel were represented on the High Priest apron as precious stones.  the light of God in us if oft hidden

  in these clay/dusty vessels....they must be transfigured.

    I go to prepare a place for you..and I will return for you......

Quote from: eaglesway on April 03, 2015, 12:47:28 AM
Sorry Micah, I wasnt trying to say, "No debate". I should have said, "Doesnt matter to me". I am trying to say is, if the scriptures say we are/were born again, that settles is for me, and I have not seen a single scriptural rebuttal of the verses that have been listed, saying we are and were. Lotsa reasons, but I reason from the scriptures, and I don't see anything by anyone that contradicts what those verses plainly(to me) say.

The purpose of debate or discussion is to present our view, but the scriptures have to be the basis of that.

I have more sympathy for the position that we are not yet saved(even tho I disagree) because our salvation is a work in progress and it is not complete untill we are in the ALL IN ALL- but someone will have to show me some verses, or information concerning translation before I can give the idea we have not yet been born again any serious consideration.

All I can say is that you and I are still human, no matter how much I believe and I do, that I have been born from above and that I am saved and a child of God, my thoughts, my belief, my faith and hope is not as yet allowing me to perform as the One who has accomplished what I have not yet even come close to. I am saved should I endure, my fear is not a hell. Yet I do not see myself as an overcomer, but I know that when my birth is complete, when I am truly saved[made whole and healed] I trust in my God, Saviour and Lord.  Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.
Mic 7:9  The indignation of Jehovah I do bear, For I have sinned against Him, Till that He doth plead my cause, And hath executed my judgment, He doth bring me forth to the light, I look on His righteousness.
You believe that you are already saved and born again, yet we both search the scriptures for answers to many questions, yet I can not say, Joh 5:8  Jesus saith to him, `Rise, take up thy couch, and be walking;'
"my thoughts, my belief, my faith and hope is not as yet allowing me to perform as the One who has accomplished what I have not yet even come close to." :2c:

What I don't understand, is why you would think you have to be able to say, "Rise up, take you bed and walk", to be saved or born again.

And still no one has addressed the scriptures concerning the matter, as to whather they are invalid or something. I definitely don't get it. But one thing I definitely agree with.

You and I are still human.   :banana:

But we are also "in Christ", and that makes us a new creation    :dsunny:

I forgot to mention.....HE IS NOT FINISHED WITH ME YET AND I WAIT! And that gives me a great deal of hope that as the example of my Elder brother I may be given the power, from above, Our Father, to say to another, RISE UP AND WALK.
I offer, as long as we are still human, we have not as yet made the grade, but the race is not over....PRAISE HIS NAME! Love you EW :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Luv u too brutha :o)

Quote from: eaglesway on April 03, 2015, 06:26:17 AM
Luv u too brutha :o)

You meant brother right? :laugh:

yea, "brutha", being correctly translated, is a Brooklynese morph of "brother" ;o)

I think that, when Christ said to Nicodemus, "You must be begotten anew, born again, or born from above" (John 3:7), he was speaking about Israel, which the Greek "humas," the plural of "you," indicates. Before Christ was crucified, he said he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24), and he also told his disciples not to go to the nations, only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 10:5,6). It wasn't until after Christ was roused from the dead that he appeared to Paul, outside Israel on the road to Damascus, and sent him to the nations with the evangel (Acts 9:1-15). Paul never spoke of being "born again," only a "new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17), because there's a distinction. I don't believe the ecclesia, the body of Christ, are the lost sheep of Israel, the new Israel, or true Israel. I think God has a specific purpose for Israel who will be regenerated spiritually in the next eon when the kingdom of the heavens on earth in Jerusalem is ruled by Christ, and all the nations on earth will come to God through Israel. I think that's what being "born again" refers to while being a "new creation" refers to the "body of Christ" who have an eonian celestial destiny. I realize this is not the popular interpretation, but I've come to believe it. I think Israel is God's chosen people on earth, and I don't think the ecclesia, the body of Christ, has taken over that role. I realize we of the nations are one with Israel in spirit (Ephesians 3:5-6), but it seems to be obvious they're distinct from the ecclesia now because they're temporarily unbelievers of the evangel until all who were chosen are called out of the nations (Romans 11:25). I think that's according to God's will (Romans 11:23-36). So I think the scriptures about being born again are valid, but it's a question of exactly who that refers to and why.

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In Rom 9-11, Paul dealt with five groups. All in relation to the olive tree, whose root is Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob, then the twelve tribes of Israel. The five groups were 1)His unbelieving brethren, who were cut off of the olive tree, 2) the remnant, which is what remains of the olive tree in this age, 3)the wild olive branches, Gentiles, grafted into the olive tree, because of the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah. 4) natural branches, cut off for unbelief, that can be grafted back in at anytime, by receiving Messiah, 5) wild branches, that having been grafted in by grace, can be cut off for arrogance, boasting over the natural branches who had been cut off.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Messiah Jesus.

This one body is also the olive tree.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?


If there is an Israel after the flesh it follows that there is an Israel after the Spirit


15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


It looks to me like the Israel of God is "in Christ".


11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Those of us who were "Gentiles in the flesh" were aliens but now we heve been brought near, included in the commonwealth and the promises. The reconciliation is to Christ, and through Him into the one olive tree, which is the Israel of God. Those wild branches who are grafted in are one with the natural branches. One bread. One body.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;Eph


This again speaks of grafting in, in a sense. "Gentiles in the flesh" are now in "Israel in the spirit" through reconciliation into the one new man. In Zechariah, Israel is the Lampstand. This plan of God begun in Israel continues in the "ecclesia", which is not Israel grafted into the Gentile believers, but is the "Gentiles in the flesh" grafted into the olive tree, to form a new creation, that is an extension of the original purpose of Israel, through Messiah Yashuah, a Jew of the lineage of David, the Root.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18

Christ first, Alpha, the Root, then the remnant which is the olive tree, the stump from which the new creature is formed by grafting in wild branches, becoming the ecclesia, which is the assembly detailed in Hebrews 12.


In my opinion this is the Israel of God.

Heb 12:22

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


All Israel will be saved because the cut-off branches (unbelieving Jews)will be grafted back into the new creation, the Israel of God, the one olive tree. Eventually the entire creation will be grafted into it.

Anyone who is born of the Spirit is "in Christ", anyone who is "in Christ" is in the olive tree. The olive tree is the Israel of God.

:2c:

 yep! Joseph is a fruitful branch that climbs over a wall...the wall is the wall of seperation between jew and gentile..making one new man

  of the two.   Joseph was told..your wife is with child by the holy spirit....

Quote from: eaglesway on April 06, 2015, 10:40:29 PM
In Rom 9-11, Paul dealt with five groups. All in relation to the olive tree, whose root is Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob, then the twelve tribes of Israel. The five groups were 1)His unbelieving brethren, who were cut off of the olive tree, 2) the remnant, which is what remains of the olive tree in this age, 3)the wild olive branches, Gentiles, grafted into the olive tree, because of the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah. 4) natural branches, cut off for unbelief, that can be grafted back in at anytime, by receiving Messiah, 5) wild branches, that having been grafted in by grace, can be cut off for arrogance, boasting over the natural branches who had been cut off.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Messiah Jesus.

This one body is also the olive tree.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?


If there is an Israel after the flesh it follows that there is an Israel after the Spirit


15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


It looks to me like the Israel of God is "in Christ".


11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Those of us who were "Gentiles in the flesh" were aliens but now we heve been brought near, included in the commonwealth and the promises. The reconciliation is to Christ, and through Him into the one olive tree, which is the Israel of God. Those wild branches who are grafted in are one with the natural branches. One bread. One body.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;Eph


This again speaks of grafting in, in a sense. "Gentiles in the flesh" are now in "Israel in the spirit" through reconciliation into the one new man. In Zechariah, Israel is the Lampstand. This plan of God begun in Israel continues in the "ecclesia", which is not Israel grafted into the Gentile believers, but is the "Gentiles in the flesh" grafted into the olive tree, to form a new creation, that is an extension of the original purpose of Israel, through Messiah Yashuah, a Jew of the lineage of David, the Root.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18

Christ first, Alpha, the Root, then the remnant which is the olive tree, the stump from which the new creature is formed by grafting in wild branches, becoming the ecclesia, which is the assembly detailed in Hebrews 12.


In my opinion this is the Israel of God.

Heb 12:22

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


All Israel will be saved because the cut-off branches (unbelieving Jews)will be grafted back into the new creation, the Israel of God, the one olive tree. Eventually the entire creation will be grafted into it.

Anyone who is born of the Spirit is "in Christ", anyone who is "in Christ" is in the olive tree. The olive tree is the Israel of God.

:2c:

I like that! :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sheila on April 06, 2015, 11:37:14 PM
yep! Joseph is a fruitful branch that climbs over a wall...the wall is the wall of seperation between jew and gentile..making one new man

  of the two.   Joseph was told..your wife is with child by the holy spirit....

:dsunny:

I'm just a humble believer who interprets scripture as simply as I can, but I agree that scripture says simple physical descent doesn't qualify someone as "Israel" just as all of Abraham's children weren't chosen, only those through Isaac. That's why the Arabs and the Jews have been fighting since then. I also agree that the true "Israel of God" is in Christ; there's no circumcision or uncircumcision in Christ; that we of the nations have been grafted in as wild branches through Christ; and that the cultivated branches cast out will be grafted back in again. I think that will happen when the Jews see Christ the next time knowing who he is as they're regenerated spiritually. I think believers now, mostly of the nations, are figuratively a new creation but will literally be so when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air. I think all our blessings through Christ are spiritually connected to Israel, but theirs is the promised land of the kingdom of the heavens in Jerusalem ruled by Christ while we've been told of a celestial destiny for the eons. Like I said before, I realize this isn't the popular belief. I don't want to cause any tension. I'm just saying what I believe these days. I try to keep an open mind, and I've changed what I believed over the years. That's how I came to believe in universal reconciliation. Anyway, I have no beef with those who interpret scripture differently about these things or anything else. I just humbly offer my opinion to the discussion. 

Quote from: Tom on March 31, 2015, 11:54:32 PM
I think the Jews will get their promised kingdom of the heavens on earth ruled by Jesus in Jerusalem in the coming eon, but they've never looked forward to a celestial destiny. I think it's only those of us in the body of Christ who are mostly of the nations who have been told about the celestial realm.

(partial quote)

Hi Tom,

  So you are talking about the 1,000 year reign (the coming eon) ?  That the Jews will get their promised kingdom on earth?  If yes, do you think only they will be ruling and reigning/partaking however with the Lord Jesus on earth then? 
  I'm not at all saying I disagree, however if the above is true, then where will the body of Christ or the bride be during that 1,000 year time period?  Elsewhere?   Somewhere in the celestial realm?
  The reason I ask is because I don't want to be anywhere that He is not.  If He is on earth during the 1000 years, I want to be there with Him, too.   :Book:

Scripture says we'll always be with the Lord when we're snatched away (1 Thessalonians 4:17). So I believe we'll be with him wherever he is, and he will be ruling the universe not just the earthly kingdom of the heavens in Jerusalem. I think time and space will be perceived and navigated differently when we're immortalized in spiritual bodies. I don't think the ecclesia, the body of Christ, will be subject to the Hebrew law of Israel at that time. The "bride" is something that I have a different concept about than is popular here. I believe the bride of the Lamb will be New Jerusalem descended out of heaven (Revelation 21:2-9).

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/AreWeTheBrideOfTheLamb.html

Thanks, Tom.  Very exciting times ahead!  :dsunny:

I do trust whatever He has planned will be wonderful....and I wish He would return today.  I too believe we will be taken up and changed in the blink of an eye.  Not clear on what happens immediately after that, though. Does He then bring us with Him back to the earth for 1,000 years?  -given that we will be navigating time and space differently in our immortal bodies.  As long as we will always be with the Lord, I won`t worry too much  :)  about the specifics. 

But inquiring minds want to know!   :clock:

  This has been an awesome    thread!!!
  Love the comments and  witness to Gods glory    and the many scriptures shared  !!

I would just like to say , I can remember being  just flesh and blood and human  and feeling the emptiness   of lack    in my youth  and that something was missing  in life to give it meaning and purpose       and though  I went out into the world like the prodigal son    and came back to sorrow of heart and  emptiness
   Than was the measure of faith   given by the Father  to seek and  find His   desire ,  it was the ''born again '' experience to me personally   
becoming aware of  being more than just flesh and blood , but a spirit in dire need of Gods presence in my own life    , I believe many come  this way and it was God in His mercy   that gave Christ though the HOLY SPIRIT  to comfort and teach me  about the things above and its still an on going process  of  completeness in   HIM , the Masters hand and power to do it for all of us

I'm aware of information about an ancient custom of people going out of a town to welcome and escort important guests back into town as an argument that believers will meet Christ in the air and immediately return with him. This is based on the Greek "apantesin" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 translated as "meet."

"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

But I think it's kind of strange that we would be changed so much that gravity wouldn't hold us anymore just to come right back down to earth.

"The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!" (2 Timothy 4:18)

That seems to indicate that there's a "celestial" kingdom. I think the celestial and earthy realms could be united which would eliminate any confusion about where we're going to be. 

The idea of having spiritual bodies when we're vivified is interesting and makes me wonder about how it will be to perceive everything spiritually rather than through our soulful senses like we do now in the flesh. I'm wondering if or how we'll be different than "spirits" when we're changed to spiritual bodies. When the resurrected Christ appeared to the disciples, he seemed to indicate that he wasn't a "spirit," but maybe that's just because he appeared with his fleshly body so they could perceive him (Luke 24:39). I think whatever will happen, it will be an amazing experience!

 

QuoteThe idea of having spiritual bodies when we're vivified is interesting and makes me wonder about how it will be to perceive everything spiritually rather than through our soulful senses like we do now in the flesh. I'm wondering if or how we'll be different than "spirits" when we're changed to spiritual bodies. When the resurrected Christ appeared to the disciples, he seemed to indicate that he wasn't a "spirit," but maybe that's just because he appeared with his fleshly body so they could perceive him (Luke 24:39). I think whatever will happen, it will be an amazing experience!

So Do I Tom, so do I      !!!   :dsunny:


I have considered Jesus in His glorified  body      His prayer in John 17     that after the Cross ............

  4"I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.

5"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
and than there is 1  Corinthians 15    that describes    glorified bodies

Quote from: Tom on April 07, 2015, 12:55:53 AM
....Anyway, I have no beef with those who interpret scripture differently about these things or anything else. I just humbly offer my opinion to the discussion.

That is awesome, Tom and I think it's a great attitude all christians should have! :smile:

 :cloud9: The key here is it's "born from ABOVE", not born again, a mistranslation. Nicodemus even said how can I go back into my mother's womb and Jesus did not correct the thought, but rather enforced it by saying that what is impossible with man IS possible with God.

Our mother is New Jerusalem, the displayed finished work of wisdom, who was also with Him when He created everything, we are told. She was by His side, let us make man in OUR image, male AND female created He them, for this cause shall a man leave father and MOTHER and cleave unto his wife. He did leave father and mother to cleave unto His wife. Together they are creating a new creation man, and a city (multiple habitations of Him). My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 08, 2015, 05:23:31 AM
:cloud9: The key here is it's "born from ABOVE", not born again, a mistranslation. Nicodemus even said how can I go back into my mother's womb and Jesus did not correct the thought, but rather enforced it by saying that what is impossible with man IS possible with God.

Our mother is New Jerusalem, the displayed finished work of wisdom, who was also with Him when He created everything, we are told. She was by His side, let us make man in OUR image, male AND female created He them, for this cause shall a man leave father and MOTHER and cleave unto his wife. He did leave father and mother to cleave unto His wife. Together they are creating a new creation man, and a city (multiple habitations of Him). My  :2c: Blessings....

  Amen   Cardinal !!!!    wisdom world  is  foolishness to God  1COR 3


19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.

For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";

20and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."...

stinking thinking   is the stench of death not Life

the power of life and death is in the tongue , out of the heart the mouth speaks .....


Proverbs 18 20With the fruit of a man's mouth his stomach will be satisfied;

He will be satisfied with the product of his lips.


21Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit.


22He who finds a wife finds a good thing And obtains favor from the LORD....

Do  not be deceived  God cannot be  mocked 


Gal 6   6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.


7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.


8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption,


but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

I, like others, have, for a long time, pondered the meaning of the word "born" in the New Testament.  Too many scriptures seem to contradict about the meaning of this word.  Once again the topic has come up in this thread started by Caffus.  I am studying this more thoroughly than I ever have and would like to share some of what I found. Born, born again, born from above, begotten, and other related words - all these words are translated by the translators into what they thought the Greek word gennao (G1080 - γεννάω) and its variants such as (G313 - ἀναγεννάω) mean in English.  Comparing various translations concerning this subject, it appears many of the scriptures contradict each other.  BUT, scripture does not contradict.

Unfortunately most translations are inconsistent, IMO.  Why?  Because of the difficulty in dealing with the aorist tense (specially that of "gennao") in the Greek. This is what the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer 2.1 basic - Help  (www.scriptures4all.org) link has to say concerning this difficulty, and there are other biblical scholars making the same points:

"THE Greek Aorist tense cannot be consistently translated into English, and especially not by the English present." This seems to be the usual attitude of scholars toward the attempt to render each Greek tense consistently, and to use the English present as a constant equivalent of the Greek indefinite, in the CONCORDANT VERSION.
We fully concur in this opinion, from the standpoint of traditional Greek grammar. If we include under the term "Aorist," and "second Aorist" all the forms usually so designated, it is impossible not only to translate consistently, but it is also impossible to give a rational reason for any rendering. Translation will be based on individual bias, and thus the Scriptures are conformed to fallible human interpretation.
The consideration of the nouns and adjectives did not present many serious difficulties. The Greek verb, which tradition had invested with almost unsuperable difficulties, required a great deal of preliminary analysis and dissection before it finally yielded up its complex structure. Certain forms of the verb were found to contain within themselves invariable signs of time or tense.
Prof. Robertson has this to say regarding the translation of the Aorist into English: "The Greek Aorist ind., as can be readily seen, is not the exact equivalent of any tense in any other language. It has nuances all its own, many of them difficult, or well nigh impossible to reproduce in English.
Some conception of the difficulty of the problem before us is evident from the fact that Greek is proverbially one of the most difficult of languages, the verb is the most complex and elaborate part of Greek grammar, and of the verb the one unsolvable riddle has been the aorist."


Thus we should be wary of the way the Greek word gennao is translated and consider the nuances of the word and the context in which it is used to properly comprehend the most likely meaning.  There is inconsistency in the translation of gennao, sometimes its rendered "born" and sometimes "begotten" even within the same version.

Also, the verb gennao can be translated in one of many forms, depending on the structure of the verb and its context 

Personal biases most definitely enter into what is perceived to be an accurate rendering

Depending on context and the form of the aorist verb tense, it is translated as:

was born, being born, being generated, is being born, being generated, were born, were begotten, may be being begotten, to be begotten, one having been begotten, having been begotten, having been born, may be being begotten, may be being born, have been generated, have been born, has been begotten, has been generated.

In English we have a separate meaning for born and another for begotten (conceived). that distinction is not clear with the Greek gennao (G1080 - γεννάω). Herein lies the problem!

I plan to post more on this as a new thread eventually  under word studies. In the mean time, here are a but two examples of the differences in translating gennao (G1080 - γεννάω) and its variants.

Here are 2 examples among others that show the problem:

EXAMPLE ONE:

(KJV) Joh_3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born (G1080) again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

(CLV) John 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten (G1080)  anew, he can not perceive the kingdom of God."

So which is it born or begotten?  They are not the same in meaning in English.  Jesus said in these following verses:

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus plainly says, when one is born of the spirit, they ARE spirit, they are no longer flesh and blood.  Inserting the word begotten instead of born just does not convey these scriptures accurately.

Being born of the spirit is like the wind - invisible and powerful, just like God!

EXAMPLE TWO

(KJV) 1Jn_3:9  Whosoever is born (G1080) of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born (G1080) of God.

(CLV)   ) 1Jn_3:9  Everyone who is begotten (G1080)  of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten(G1080)  of God."

So is it born or begotten?. If we take it literally it means that one being born into the God family as a spirit being CANNOT sin.  An obvious truth!

There are just to many excuses offered by some translations to explain this verse by saying it means "does not continue in sin" or "does not practice sin". This is not in harmony with the actual Greek.

If we regard begotten as a correct word here, this scripture would contradict this one:

1Jn_1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I know there are many different opinions on this topic, and I am not going to lose sleep over who is right or wrong. I for one tend to take the words of scripture as literal unless they make more sense as figurative.  In the two examples above the word born is better IMO.  Other places in scripture begotten is more appropriate.

If we wish to have the English word equivalent to gennao (G1080 - γεννάω)  we would probably use the word generate or generated.  Here is the comment that the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer 2.1 basic has to say on this which uses the CLV translation:

The CGTS  (Concordant Greek Text Sublinear) is characterized by its uniformity, its exactitude and its vivid reflection of the Greek, and aims to be as nearly Greek as can be understood by an English reader

See the attachment which shows this.

More later.


[attachment deleted by admin]

QuoteSo is it born or begotten?. If we take it literally it means that one being born into the God family as a spirit being CANNOT sin.  An obvious truth!

Hi Joe .
  I read your study    ,,,,

born =  new /babe    is  my  understanding  as  well
begotten is ,   one of its kind ,
  and love it  that it is the spiritual man inherits   the promises of God and  life
the flesh  profits nothing

I have to disagree.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

Same fellow who wrote John 3:3-8 wrote that.

John 3:3-8 describes the process of moving from a new believer to a mature disciple. Nowhere does Jesus say that in any literal sense that a person who is born again is not longer flesh and blood. IMO, He is clearly speaking metaphorically, of being converted, renewed, to spiritual life, and it is clear from the scriptures that Peter, Paul and John understood Him to mean that.

2 chapters earlier John tells us what it means to be born of God and he is consistent with that in his epistle(1 John), as is Peter in his 1 Pet).

But those that received him, to them he gave authority to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his Name,. John 1:12

This is clearly what John understood, as he writes in His epistle, that everyone who loves is born of God,.

Peter also understood Jesus in this way,

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

Obeying the truth(word/water) through the spirit(spirit wind) unto love

Paul, while not using the term born from above says,

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration(word/water) and renewing by the Holy Spirit(spirit/wind),

Unless you are born of the water(word) and the spirit(wind) you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Both John and Peter understood what it means to be born of God. It is when a spirit is awakened to the truth of God,the word is implanted, the spirit of God germinates the seed in the heart, and love is shed abroad in our hearts. 1 John spends chapters defining this. The new commandment is love.

As to the person who is born of God cannot continue sinning.... I agree with the other interpretation because of the context both of 1 John and of 1 Peter 1:22.

John is speaking of the disposition to sin, not "not ever sinning", or being "a spirit being not having flesh and blood". A person who is born of God does not have a disposition to continue sinning, because of a new disposition towards loving.  John opens his epistle by letting us know that if we sin we have a propitiation for sin, and that if we confess our sins God will forgive and cleanse us, in order to prepare us for the understanding of the new commandment, which he spends the next three chapters explaining IS LOVE. Otherwise writing 1John 4:7- just a few verses after 1 John 3:9, makes no sense in context.

But really 1 Peter1:22 is the clincher here. He clearly says we HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN(born from above) by 1)obedience to the truth 2)from the spirit unto a fervent love. This is consistent with, "Everyone who loves is born of God." The person who is born from above is not sinning because they are loving.....they have a new disposition, there is a NEW CREATION, and that new creation is..... the children of God, born not of the will of the flesh or the will of man, but of God.

Begotten is just another way of saying born, it is a past participle of beget. If you look at the two words in a variety of dictionaries, you find- there is no difference in meaning. I wish translators would be consistent but in the KJV they were just being poetic, not implicating different meanings between the two words.

Almost all other versions just use born in every case.

John 3:8 describes the operation of the spirit in a mature disciple. It is like being on the wind. It gives no advance notice. It requires one to move as led in the moment by the voice of the Lord. "The birds of the air have nests, the foxes have holes, the son of man has nowhere to lay His head."

On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came upon them like a rushing mighty wind. They began to move and act as Jesus had. He was multiplied in them and they were moving as He had moved- like the wind, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

"He that believes in me, out of His innermost being will gush fountains of living water". This He spoke of the Spirit that would be given to all who believed, but the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified"(john somewhere)

Speaking of the Spirit as water is a metaphor for an element of characteristic. Life-giving, delivering refreshing, "Times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord(Acts 3). So is speaking of the Spirit as wind.

That's my understanding.  :2c:

I do not think the incorruptible seed , Which is Christ  in you  ever  sins ,  but the love is real  where the  love of mankind is limited to lust /desire that is not in others interest but self interest , there is a spirit in the world of error 1 John 4;6 ...5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
LOVE  though Christ .. OVERCOMES MULTITUDE OF SIN

   but the old man of sin rises up and is of sin nature [our battle in the body of death]


  1Peter 4 ;8...7The end of all things is near;


therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

8Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.

9Be hospitable to one another without complaint


I love what you shared   John !!!  :HeartThrob:

  Jesus Christ being the only begotten one of its kind sent into the world died  [the perfect sacrifice   /gift of God ] so the new covenant  of promise   being fulfilled bring, springing forth   new life  would come though Him    , many sons     

Hi Rosered,

   I agree that the new man never sins. It is a paradox, in which the Holy Spirit often speaks to us in our duality, while comforting us regarding our coming dawn, a singularity- Christ in you, the hope of glory. :o)

Quote from: eaglesway on April 17, 2015, 12:24:20 AM
Hi Rosered,

   I agree that the new man never sins. It is a paradox, in which the Holy Spirit often speaks to us in our duality, while comforting us regarding our coming dawn, a singularity- Christ in you, the hope of glory. :o)

       :thumbsup:

Born-Begotten similarities indeed. I do find myself leaning towards EW's offering. Jesus as all humanity was first conceived then born-begotten. So my understanding to be born again one must first be conceived, then the process of being born.  To me that process will end-happen when I am born again complete in spirit. I have an Elder brother as my example.
Luk 2:21  And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Luk 1:36  And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
Luk 1:24  And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

Conceived G4815  to clasp, that is, seize (arrest, capture); specifically to conceive (literally or figuratively); by implication to aid: - catch, conceive, help, take.

The translators and translations sometimes give me fits..... 

Mat 1:20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Conceived G1080  figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
Born G1080  figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
Begotten G1080  figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Me personally, i am 70 yrs. (young or old depending on the individual outlook) and the Lord found(conceived) me 40 yrs. ago, i consider myself to be a very hard birth...there is much travailing, yet i know that i will be brought forth when my time is right, His time, as a complete new creature. This is just how i understand me being born again...born from above...regenerated. I do not believe that Jesus was "regenerated."  :2c: :HeartThrob:

Late in modification...Because of my zeal i may be a breach birth...i desire to hit the ground running...but that is not in His plan.

I think there is something hidden in there between conceived, begotten, born and then "adopted", which is not the same as we think of adoption,

This is from an article I read and I had been taught this as a young believer and I think it has a lot of merit.

So yes. Paul says "adoption" right there in the Bible. He actually uses it a couple of times, but if one examines the text as written in the original Greek, one begins to understand that Paul didn't mean "adoption" like the modern world means "adoption. " His original Greek word huiothesia meant something else entirely.

The original Greek word in this scripture (and the others where Paul was translated as saying "adoption") is huiothesia, derived from the huios ("a son") and thesis ("a placing"), so literally the placing of/as a son. (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985).

The "placing as a son" imagery was something with which Paul and his readers of Galatia would have been entirely familiar (Mitchell, 1993; Zanker, 1988). Basically, it was a ceremony that occurred within the Roman culture in which a male child of a citizen achieved the status of manhood. Prior to the ceremony, a son was considered to have the status of a slave in his father's house (The Story of Civilization, Vol. 3: Caesar and Christ, 1972, p. 57), even though he had the potential to inherit his father's wealth. The "placing as a son" ceremony occurred around a boy's teen years, when his father determined it was time for him to pass from being a child (and under the absolute power of his father) into adulthood.

Our adoption, fulfilled in the redemption of our bodies(Romans 8), is the declaration that we have overcome, received the crown of life, and sit with Him on the throne of His Father, inheritors of all things, meaning, 'placed' as sons over the father's estate/resources as executors and stewards.

All of this, from "conceived(alpha) through birth, maturation(until we all attain unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God), then finally "adoption"- in my view the first resurrection where we begin the work of ages to come, reconciling the whold creation, setting it free from futility nto the glorious liberty of the sons of God, is a process- wheels within wheels.

Now adoption is brought it..... my glass darkly seems smudged...but that is just me. :sigh: :HeartThrob: :dsunny: No offence intended.

None taken. Just exploring.  :o)

Hi John 

I hear what you share and what the Spirit is saying  , I have been trying to be listening  before speaking

For me this  being born again   is  spoken of  by Jesus some in John 3  , but to me Paul expounds on it in   1Thess 5   ,  that coming out of darkness [like a womb/tomb ] and for me its those still under the law   being held in death [the law of Moses is the ministration of death]   2Corth 3;7 The Glory of the New Covenant
7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 

Now for me this is the  return of Jesus Christ showing us that some  , not all   at this time   are   Children of the Day/thousand year  reign     in the sense of Romans 11  , you have read the whole chapter to  understand what the fulness of the gentiles /all other nations   represents   and the trampling of the Holy city for 42 months  means , and how all of Israel will be saved  by this   Day of the Lord [judgment of Christ]   that is the gathering back of those  broken branches  that were burned ,not literally but  cast off for a time    of those branches  chosen   in Christ before   those will be grafted back in and all supported by the ROOT =Jesus Christ , making the first last /Israel and the last first /all those  of the nations /Gentiles ..

For me Paul is speaking to the nations /all  those born again by faith though Jesus Christ  till that fulness  is complete , as to be destroying Babylon [idolatry]   



1 Thess  5 :5 The Day of the Lord 
...4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.



2Peter 3 ;87But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

  Hearing what the Spirit is saying is the same as   knowing what is happening  , the  Jealousy of God is to provoke  Israel into faithfulness towards Him

First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, ... Duet 10:12 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God

Love is as strong as death Solo 8 :6
6"Put me like a seal over your heart, Like a seal on your arm. For love is as strong as death, Jealousy is as severe as Sheol/grave ; Its flashes are flashes of fire, The very flame of the LORD. 7"Many waters cannot quench love, Nor will rivers overflow it; If a man were to give all the riches of his house for love, It would be utterly despised."

God is a  jealous God and consuming fire  Deut 4 Warning against Idolatry
...23"So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you.

24"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.


25"When you become the father of children and children's children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God so as to provoke Him to anger,...

For me the odd thing is  all have fallen short  , the  other nations /gentiles are no better off  , and  serving the beast , false prophet and  satan in the sense of being adversarial     against God from the beginning ,    all from the work of their own hands /power   ,making idols   from their own imaginations   

It is the LORD  GOD  HIMSELF  ,   who saves us and teaches us  by His Holy Spirit     that makes us new    and holy and purified into  His  own  kind

   Jesus Christ come in the fulness of time to show us the WAY ,TRUTH AND LIFE   BY  THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH      ...I DO BELIEVE   JESUS CHRIST AND GOD THE FATHER ARE ONE !   


1Corth8 ...5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth,

as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.


7However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now,

eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

  we are to eat His body and drink His blood   that we might have life in us       ...     this sacrifice   is the true and pure one  sent  for us that we  are not   idolaters
   eating and drinking of the SPIRIT  of Truth   as children   to grow  strong in the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD     

   ....for me the odd thing is...that all have fallen short...  For the creature was subjected to vanity,not by it's own will..but by the

   will of He who subjected it...IN THE HOPE..the whole creation would be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

    for God wrapped up ALL MEN into disobedience...IN ORDER to show mercy to ALL

Quote from: sheila on April 17, 2015, 08:33:51 PM
   ....for me the odd thing is...that all have fallen short...  For the creature was subjected to vanity,not by it's own will..but by the

   will of He who subjected it...IN THE HOPE..the whole creation would be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

    for God wrapped up ALL MEN into disobedience...IN ORDER to show mercy to ALL

  WELL IT SURE IS ALL HIM !!! :HeartThrob:  NOT BY MIGHT MY SPIRIT Zach 4;6 The Gold Lampstand


...5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me,

"Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."


6Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.


7What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'"

EPH 2 ;20A Temple in the Lord
19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,


20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner/CAP  stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,


NEW JERUSALEM   REV 21  :dsunny:


Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.



Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Luke 24  ;44Jesus Opens the Meaning of Scriptures
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures

  the lamb open seals  book   Rev 5 Revelation 5 Expanded Bible (EXB)

5 Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the One sitting on the throne. The scroll had writing on both sides and was ·kept closed [L sealed] with seven seals [C a wax stamp that sealed a document shut]. 2 And I saw a ·powerful [mighty] angel ·calling [proclaiming] in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3 But there was no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth who could open the scroll or look inside it. 4 I cried ·bitterly [L much] because there was no one who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not cry! [L Look; T Behold] The Lion from the tribe of Judah [C a messianic title; Gen. 49:9–10], ·David's descendant [L the root of David; C a messianic title applied to Christ; Is. 11:10], has ·won the victory [overcome; conquered] so that he is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

6 Then I saw a Lamb [C Jesus] standing ·in the center of the throne and in the middle of the four living creatures and the elders [or between the throne and the living creatures and among the elders]. The Lamb looked as if he had been ·killed [slaughtered; slain]. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God [C either angels or the "sevenfold Spirit"; see 1:4] that were sent into all the world. 7 The Lamb came and ·took [received] the scroll from the right hand of the One sitting on the throne. 8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders [4:4] ·bowed down [fell] before the Lamb. Each one of them had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's holy people [Ps. 141:2]. 9 And they all sang a new song [Ps. 33:3; 40:3; 98:1] to the Lamb:

"You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
because you were ·killed [slaughtered; slain],
    and with ·the blood of your death [L your blood] you ·bought [ransomed; purchased; redeemed] people for God
    from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
10 You made them to be a kingdom ·of priests [or and priests; Ex. 19:6] for our God,
    and they will ·rule [reign; C other manuscripts have "they reign" (present tense)] on the earth."

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.



Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.



1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.



Act 4:11 He is " 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.

Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.(NIV)



Isa 28:16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.






Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I understand what you posted John. 

But I cannot get John 3:6 out of my mind. 

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This statement of Jesus is not metaphorical IMO.

Jesus plainly said that which is born of the flesh is flesh. All of us - every human being.
That which is born of the spirit is spirit. None of us are in that plain of existence.  We are not spirit.


Many Protestants and practically all evangelicals believe they are "born again" Christians.  They think that after becoming "believers, having a water baptism and accepting Christ" they have been "born again."  . They have been taught that being "born again" occurs in this life, upon "receiving Jesus."  I do not believe the scriptures teach that.  Being born again does not happen at conversion—but rather, the Bible teaches that rebirth comes long after this initial step in a new Christian's life.

Jesus said, "(John 3:3) Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God".   

One's ability to "see God's kingdom" hinges solely on whether he is "born again." Obviously, we must comprehend the importance of how and when people are born again!

The terms "kingdom" and "kingdom of God" are found throughout the New Testament. Although there are scriptures that that you can enter the Kingdom of God now in type and shadow , the reality is that there is coming a literal Kingdom of God when He returns to be Lord of Lords and King of Kings. That is when His elect enter in, being born again.

Being born again into the Kingdom of God has two-phases. The first phase is to be born as a human being:
Man is the only physical being which can ever enter the Kingdom of God. So the first step to eventually becoming a spirit being in of the Kingdom of God is to be born as a man or woman.  However, man cannot enter the Kingdom of God in his present flesh and blood body:

(I Corinthians 15:50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit in corruption.

The Bible describes only two types of beings, physical and spiritual:

(I Corinthians 15:44) There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body

Truly, that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)


The scriptures state that man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. What type of birth must this be? There are only two body types, physical and spiritual, and man is born initially as a physical flesh and blood body. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! Therefore, for man to enter the Kingdom of God he must abandon his physical body and be born again as the only remaining body type -- a spiritual body! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the Kingdom of God!

Anything born of the flesh is flesh. Man is flesh! Anything born of the Spirit is spirit. The product of any birth is identical to the type of birth which created that product. Flesh births produce flesh bodies. Spiritual births produce spiritual bodies.

The first step is a physical birth which gains one entry into the kingdom of man. Step two is a spiritual birth into the Kingdom of God. If men accept Jesus as their Savoir their names are written into the book of life and they become heirs to eternal life.
They were born initially as physical bodies and will be born again as spiritual bodies upon the return of Jesus:

That simple truth is that humans are born as physical beings. They can become heirs to the Kingdom of God through a belief in Jesus. They enter the Kingdom of God when born again as spiritual beings. This occurs at the seventh trump.

(I Corinthians 15:51-52)  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes, it true that, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (II Corinthians 5:17)

(Romans 6:4-5) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Although we all commit sins in the future, even after baptism by the Holy Spirit, nevertheless we are a new creature in Christ., but we are not born again.

2Co_5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Eph_2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Rom_8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

It is true that we have a new life in Jesus with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean we are born again.

We have spiritual life when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit and given a down payment of the Spirit.


2Co_1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2Co_5:5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

The second birth, that of being born again, is clearly defined as a spiritual birth. The Kingdom of God is composed exclusively of eternal spiritual beings. At present, this includes only God and the angels. Man's destiny is to be in the Kingdom of God.

(Col. 1:15, 18).every creature...And He is the head of the Body, the Church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence"

This further clarifies when one is born again. Jesus is firstborn FROM THE DEAD.  One's new birth occurs after death—and involves the resurrection from the dead.  The phrase "firstborn of every creature" adds double emphasis to Paul's statement—and the meaning.

He is the beginning." This alone proves Jesus' Resurrection from the dead refers to the order in time sequence that this occurs. He is the "beginning" of those others who will receive eonian life at His Return—when the Resurrection of the dead occurs. "Beginning" references who is first. The next passage builds on and helps explain this one.

Paul also recorded, "For whom [God] did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He [Jesus] might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).

God intends to have many sons—Jesus' brethren, born later in His Plan. If one is designated as first, others must follow, or first has no meaning. It must include more later. In the case of salvation, "many" will follow.  In fact all will follow in their own order, the salvation of all.

Quote from: joeteekay on April 19, 2015, 07:17:57 PM
I understand what you posted John. 

But I cannot get John 3:6 out of my mind. 

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This statement of Jesus is not metaphorical IMO.

Jesus plainly said that which is born of the flesh is flesh. All of us - every human being.
That which is born of the spirit is spirit. None of us are in that plain of existence.  We are not spirit.


Many Protestants and practically all evangelicals believe they are "born again" Christians.  They think that after becoming "believers, having a water baptism and accepting Christ" they have been "born again."  . They have been taught that being "born again" occurs in this life, upon "receiving Jesus."  I do not believe the scriptures teach that.  Being born again does not happen at conversion—but rather, the Bible teaches that rebirth comes long after this initial step in a new Christian's life.

Jesus said, "(John 3:3) Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God".   

One's ability to "see God's kingdom" hinges solely on whether he is "born again." Obviously, we must comprehend the importance of how and when people are born again!

The terms "kingdom" and "kingdom of God" are found throughout the New Testament. Although there are scriptures that that you can enter the Kingdom of God now in type and shadow , the reality is that there is coming a literal Kingdom of God when He returns to be Lord of Lords and King of Kings. That is when His elect enter in, being born again.

Being born again into the Kingdom of God has two-phases. The first phase is to be born as a human being:
Man is the only physical being which can ever enter the Kingdom of God. So the first step to eventually becoming a spirit being in of the Kingdom of God is to be born as a man or woman.  However, man cannot enter the Kingdom of God in his present flesh and blood body:

(I Corinthians 15:50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit in corruption.

The Bible describes only two types of beings, physical and spiritual:

(I Corinthians 15:44) There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body

Truly, that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)


The scriptures state that man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. What type of birth must this be? There are only two body types, physical and spiritual, and man is born initially as a physical flesh and blood body. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! Therefore, for man to enter the Kingdom of God he must abandon his physical body and be born again as the only remaining body type -- a spiritual body! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the Kingdom of God!

Anything born of the flesh is flesh. Man is flesh! Anything born of the Spirit is spirit. The product of any birth is identical to the type of birth which created that product. Flesh births produce flesh bodies. Spiritual births produce spiritual bodies.

The first step is a physical birth which gains one entry into the kingdom of man. Step two is a spiritual birth into the Kingdom of God. If men accept Jesus as their Savoir their names are written into the book of life and they become heirs to eternal life.
They were born initially as physical bodies and will be born again as spiritual bodies upon the return of Jesus:

That simple truth is that humans are born as physical beings. They can become heirs to the Kingdom of God through a belief in Jesus. They enter the Kingdom of God when born again as spiritual beings. This occurs at the seventh trump.

(I Corinthians 15:51-52)  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes, it true that, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (II Corinthians 5:17)

(Romans 6:4-5) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Although we all commit sins in the future, even after baptism by the Holy Spirit, nevertheless we are a new creature in Christ., but we are not born again.

2Co_5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Eph_2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Rom_8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

It is true that we have a new life in Jesus with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean we are born again.

We have spiritual life when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit and given a down payment of the Spirit.


2Co_1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2Co_5:5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

The second birth, that of being born again, is clearly defined as a spiritual birth. The Kingdom of God is composed exclusively of eternal spiritual beings. At present, this includes only God and the angels. Man's destiny is to be in the Kingdom of God.

(Col. 1:15, 18).every creature...And He is the head of the Body, the Church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence"

This further clarifies when one is born again. Jesus is firstborn FROM THE DEAD.  One's new birth occurs after death—and involves the resurrection from the dead.  The phrase "firstborn of every creature" adds double emphasis to Paul's statement—and the meaning.

He is the beginning." This alone proves Jesus' Resurrection from the dead refers to the order in time sequence that this occurs. He is the "beginning" of those others who will receive eonian life at His Return—when the Resurrection of the dead occurs. "Beginning" references who is first. The next passage builds on and helps explain this one.

Paul also recorded, "For whom [God] did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He [Jesus] might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).

God intends to have many sons—Jesus' brethren, born later in His Plan. If one is designated as first, others must follow, or first has no meaning. It must include more later. In the case of salvation, "many" will follow.  In fact all will follow in their own order, the salvation of all.

I like that  :Peace2:

I like much of what you say Joe.  Other aspects, including the final conclusion that no one is born again until the next age, I'm still not convinced of its final clarity.  One thought is, the kingdom is now.  Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.  Or is it talking about another kingdom, i.e., "eternal life"/next age...the whole "which kingdom is being referred to", to me, can be confusing.  Not sure I've ever read a 100% certainty explanation of the kingdoms, "of heaven"/"of God".  I believe for the believer, although we're still "looking for a city" and "the redemption of the body", and "the things God has laid in store" for those believing in Him, still, Life in Him is now.

On one hand I think there's some wondering over the specific term "born again" and what it exactly means (good question), when in fact (IMO) things can be summed up like this;  believe on Jesus as Savior, He makes us His child through grace, the Holy Spirit indwells us, renews us, and seals us , and then we are completely redeemed in the next age with the redemption of our body.  I personally believe Jesus was saying "you must believe on Me [the way, truth and life, only way to the Father] and you are mine, you are renewed spiritually.  A child, not a bastard" - however some of the other details shake out. 

As I think about water, Spirit, new birth, etc., I find the following interesting as another angle from which to consider;

"Jesus answered Nicodemus's confusion by elaborating on the truth He introduced in verse 3: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." A number of interpretations have been offered to explain the phrase born of water. Some see two births here, one natural, and the other spiritual. Proponents of this view interpret the water as the amniotic fluid that flows from the womb just before childbirth. But it is not clear that the ancients described natural birth in that way. Further, the phrase born of water and the Spirit parallels the phrase "born again" in verse 3; thus, only one birth is in view. Others see in the phrase born of water a reference to baptism, either that of John the Baptist, or Christian baptism. But Nicodemus would not have understood Christian baptism (which did not yet exist) nor misunderstood John the Baptist's baptism. Nor would Jesus have refrained from baptizing people (4:2) if baptism were necessary for salvation. Still others see the phrase as a reference to Jewish ceremonial washings, which being born of the Spirit transcends. However the two terms are not in contrast with each other, but combine to form a parallel with the phrase "born again" in verse 3. (For a careful examination of the various interpretations of born of water, see D. A. Carson, The Gospel According to John, The Pillar New Testament Commentary [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1991], 191–96.)

Since Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand this truth (v. 10), it must have been something with which he was familiar. Water and Spirit often refer symbolically in the Old Testament to spiritual renewal and cleansing (cf. Num. 19:17–19; Isa. 4:4; 32:15; 44:3; 55:1; Joel 2:28–29; Zech. 13:1). In one of the most glorious passages in all of Scripture describing Israel's restoration to the Lord by the new covenant, God said through Ezekiel,

For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezek. 36:24–27)

It was surely this passage that Jesus had in mind, showing regeneration to be an Old Testament truth (cf. Deut. 30:6; Jer. 31:31–34; Ezek. 11:18–20) with which Nicodemus would have been acquainted. Against this Old Testament backdrop, Christ's point was unmistakable: Without the spiritual washing of the soul, a cleansing accomplished only by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) through the Word of God (Eph. 5:26), no one can enter God's kingdom.

Jesus continued by further emphasizing that this spiritual cleansing is wholly a work of God, and not the result of human effort: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Just as only human nature can beget human nature, so also only the Holy Spirit can effect spiritual transformation. The term flesh (sarx) here refers merely to human nature (as it does in 1:13–14); in this context, it does not have the negative moral connotation that it frequently does in Paul's writings (e.g., Rom. 8:1–8, 12–13). Even if a physical rebirth were possible, it would produce only flesh. Thus, only the Spirit can produce the spiritual birth required for entrance into God's kingdom. Regeneration is entirely His work, unaided by any human effort (cf. Rom. 3:25).

Although Jesus' words were based on Old Testament revelation, they ran completely contrary to everything Nicodemus had been taught. For his entire life he had believed that salvation came through his own external merit. Now he found it exceedingly difficult to think otherwise. Aware of his astonishment, Jesus continued, "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' " The verb translated must is a strong term; John used it elsewhere in his gospel to refer to the necessity of the crucifixion (3:14; 12:34), of John the Baptist's inferiority to Christ (3:30), of the proper method of worshiping God (4:24), of Jesus carrying out His ministry (4:4; 9:4; 10:16), and of the necessity of the resurrection (20:9). It was absolutely necessary for Nicodemus to get over his astonishment at being so wrong about how one is accepted into God's kingdom and seek to be born again if he was to enter. And he could never do so based on his own righteous works.

Then the Lord illustrated His point with a familiar example from nature: "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." The wind cannot be controlled; it blows where it wishes. And though its general direction can be known, where it comes from and where it is going cannot be precisely determined. Nevertheless, the wind's effects can be observed. The same is true of the work of the Spirit. His sovereign work of regeneration in the human heart can neither be controlled nor predicted. Yet its effects can be seen in the transformed lives of those who are born of the Spirit."  gracetoyou.org

I think, what would the main thing be Jesus wanted to get across to Nicodemus? What would He be saying to this lost man that help Him?  Or was He talking parables not to be understood at the time?

Then also, how does that fit in with all other verses about the new birth, new creation, Life more abundantly, child not bastard, kingdom among/within you, new wineskin (all in this life?)  vs. things prepared, redemption of the body, God all in all (future).  Honestly, I'm not sure I can know right now.  Again, I can just sum it up now with   

Quote from: jabcat on April 19, 2015, 09:02:40 PM
believe on Jesus as Savior, He makes us His child through grace, the Holy Spirit indwells us, renews us, and seals us , and then we are completely redeemed in the next age with the redemption of our body [and all the things God has in store for those who love Him]. 

Blessings.

I know this phrase "born again" is popular among believers, but I no longer share the popular belief and have gotten some heat here before for saying that. I understand where Joe's coming from because I believe Christ was telling Nicodemus about the regeneration of Israel in the next eon, but I'm not going to get back into debating all the scriptures everybody likes to quote to back up the popular belief. I'm just giving Joe some props for having a different understanding than the popular one.

Popular's not good if it's wrong.  Going against the grain is good if it's right.  To me, there are questions to handle with care, and I'm not positive on all the details.

I agree. I'm not trying to be a rebel without a cause. I just have a different interpretation than the popular one. I think we believers are a "new creation" as Paul says. That's in a figurative sense until we're actually changed when we're given spiritual bodies.

I also share the belief in the regeneration of Israel in the next age, but I also believe in the regeneration of the believer through the Holy Spirit and fire in this age.  So   :Peace2:, we'll know for sure some day :).

I understand. God's love changes our lives for sure, and those of us who were lost souls definitely feel like we have new lives now. I know it's only by the power of the holy spirit of God that my life turned around, and I have peace now. I thank God for that.

Sometimes I think it can get to be like we're debating about whether it's six or a half dozen. Maybe it's just different ways of looking at things. I just have come to think that, before Christ was crucified, he was ministering mostly to his people, the Jews, and, when he spoke to Nicodemus about being "born again," he was referring to the destiny of Israel in the next eon. I think it's Paul, who was commissioned by the risen Christ, who told those of us mostly of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, that we're a "new creation" which actually seems to be a more radical idea than being "born again" even though Nicodemus thought that was pretty strange too. The reason I say more radical is because "new creation" seems to imply a completely different life form than the old one being born again, and I think that's because we'll be compatible with the celestial realm during the final eons while Israel will be a regenerated earthly kingdom.   

Quote from: Tom on April 19, 2015, 10:01:54 PM
Sometimes I think it can get to be like we're debating about whether it's six or a half dozen. Maybe it's just different ways of looking at things. I just have come to think that, before Christ was crucified, he was ministering mostly to his people, the Jews, and, when he spoke to Nicodemus about being "born again," he was referring to the destiny of Israel in the next eon. I think it's Paul, who was commissioned by the risen Christ, who told those of us mostly of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, that we're a "new creation" which actually seems to be a more radical idea than being "born again" even though Nicodemus thought that was pretty strange too. The reason I say more radical is because "new creation" seems to imply a completely different life form than the old one being born again, and I think that's because we'll be compatible with the celestial realm during the final eons while Israel will be a regenerated earthly kingdom.

Thanks Tom,
Good points for sure.
This raises the question of the discourse Jesus had regarding Mat. 25 which you mention as being about the House of Israel.

I do not think we have the total answers on those as well as the born again question

Lois Abbot had the same thoughts as you are mentioning. I agree with Rodger Tutt answer on this topic;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/snippets-from-the-hard-copy-ur-library-of-rodger-tutt/msg182412/#msg182412

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/snippets-from-the-hard-copy-ur-library-of-rodger-tutt/msg182443/#msg182443

:thumbsup:    James /Jabcat :HeartThrob:

   Born again is also what Saul  who  was never called   Saul again  , but was given by Jesus   a new name  Paul ,  He did see the Kingdom of God
  the pure in Heart shall see GOD   HE SAW JESUS AND GOD ARE ONE       MATT 5

new  name new stone and hidden manna  ,  The name Paulus means Little or Small.

  the least greatest...47But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, 48and said to them, "Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great."


born of the kingdom
  we are called little children in many places    ,  to me that is being born again     and walking in the Spirit    from  being babes in Christ   
  so many places   prove to me we are born of the Spirit  here and now , many , many      are

  Paul mentions this fact also  what of the baptism of the dead ? if all we have hope in  this life we are of men most miserable   ,, saying folks come on are you denying the power of God as to what resurrection is ??  you must wait till you are dead and lay in the grave till Christ comes  for the second time ???

Most assuredly     when Jesus returns   He come like a thief in the night ,,,,, 
what is this saying than ?

Its unexpected and  when you are  sleeping and  NOT AWARE  ITS JESUS CHRIST !! 
in Adam all die , this is true , but remember the deep sleep   he put  upon Adam and many   they were not  awakened , till righteousness COME TO THEM !!!!

21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and'' closed up the flesh'' at that place.



22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man....

1 Corinthians 11:8
For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;   
This is the same  /picture  meaning of How the church /bride  / come out of Christ side though Blood and water    ! 
the baptism  of blood and water death was how the  new  birth would happen and its in ONE DAY     as spoken of in the old testament 
  the DAY OF THE LORD      whom is the  MASTER of the dead and living   
   BOTH death and Life come  out of Him  ,   ALL THINGS ARE CREATED  BY HIM FOR HIM AND THOUGH HIM          COL 1 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.!!!     The inheritance      of the Spirit promise is  ALL THINGS ARE YOURS!! 

  life and death, the sleep of death is not knowing Gods  plan , the fear and dread is not knowing God     !!    the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God ,  but men boasting in men  seeing themselves as superior  to one another    , provoking to  jealousy ,   a wrath that does not work the righteousness of God , but thinking themselves as special     
    1 CORINTH 3 ...21So then let no one boast in men.

For all things belong to you, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

The origin  of faith come  from a promise to Abram    long ago  , His day was  fear and dread    and the beginning of Wisdom from God    , the fear of the Lord in His presence!!

Genesis 15:12
As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him.

1 Samuel 26:12
So David took the spear and water jug near Saul's head, and they left. No one saw or knew about it, nor did anyone wake up. They were all sleeping, because the LORD had put them into a deep sleep.


J ob 4:13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falls on men,


Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men, ...


Proverbs 19:15 Slothfulness casts into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.


Daniel 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face ...
 
the deep sleep of dead  being Not knowing  what is happening to you !!  the fear of the Lord comes upon you and it is the true beginning of wisdom

  The same   with these ,     

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead.


Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


Luke 20:4 |
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?


Acts 19:3 |
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.


Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, and God called you to ·have one hope [L one hope of your calling]. 5 There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. 6 There is one God and Father of everything. ·He rules everything and is everywhere and is in everything [L ...who is over all and through all and in all].

7 Each one of us has been given the ·special gift of grace [L grace; or gift], ·showing how generous Christ is [or in proportion to Christ's gift; L according to the measure of Christ's gift]. 8 That is why it says in the Scriptures,

"When he ·went up [ascended] to the heights,
    he ·led a parade of captives [or took captives into captivity],
    and he gave gifts to people [Ps. 68:18]."


Mark 11:30
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.


Luke 12:50
But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!


Him  speaking of the Cross  dieath He willingly laid down His life  , to bring  righteous judgment in the world     and salvation to all men by the new covenant   /good news


Acts 1:22 |
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.


Luke 3:3
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;


Luke 7:29 |
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.


Acts 13:24
When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.


Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


   For me   the water baptism  , never washes away the filth of the flesh but makes a clean conscience  towards  God  preparing the way   for the Lord coming to us   



  and the Blood one of Jesus Christ baptism is    HOLY SPIRIT & FIRE     doing  the cleansing of the filth of the flesh

  Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

  the least of the kingdom is greater than John  Matt 11 ...10"This is the one about whom it is written, 'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.'


11"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist!



Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force....

13 All the prophets and the law of Moses ·told about what would happen [L prophesied] until ·the time John came [L John]. 14 And if you ·will believe what they said, you will believe that John is Elijah [L are willing to accept it, he is Elijah], whom they said would come. 15 ·Let those with ears use them and listen[L The one who has ears to hear, let him hear]!

16 "·What can I say about the people of this time? What are they like? [L To what shall I compare this generation?] They are like children sitting in the marketplace, who call out to each other,

17 'We played ·music [L the pipe/flute] for you, but you did not dance;
    we sang a ·sad song [funeral song; dirge], but you did not ·cry [weep].' [C The religious leaders wanted John to "dance" (lighten up his severe message) and wanted Jesus to "mourn" (follow their restrictive lifestyle).]
18 [L For] John came and did not eat or drink like other people. So people say, 'He ·has [is possessed by] a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came, eating and drinking, and people say, 'Look at him! ·He eats too much and drinks too much wine [L He's a glutton and a drunkard], and he is a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is ·proved to be right [vindicated] by ·what she does [or its deeds/actions/results; C Wisdom is personified as a woman (Prov. 8), her "children" being those who respond favorably to the message of John and Jesus]."

  Wisdom is justified of her Children  , those born again  believers !!

I've read that Paul means "pause," signifying the pause in the fulfillment of the earthy kingdom of the heavens in Israel until all who were chosen are called out of the nations. 

Christ told his disciples not even to go on a road of the nations (Matthew 10:5,6), and Christ also said he was only commissioned for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). I think it's popular to assume that everything Christ said to his people, the Jews, is also meant to apply to those of us of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, but I no longer believe that. That's why I think Christ was speaking to Nicodemus specifically about Israel.

I think the risen Christ chose Paul outside Israel on the road to Damascus to signify there was a distinct evangel to be given to the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, and part of that is that we're figuratively a new creation now and will be literally when we're changed to spiritual bodies when Christ meets us in the air. I think that's different than Christ telling Nicodemus that Israel would be regenerated for the Millennium. But I really don't want to cause stress among the brothers and sisters by continuing to go round and round about this. Like it's been said before, we all agree God is the savior of all mankind, and Christ's blood on the cross reconciles all on earth and in the heavens. So, if you want to believe you're born again, and you're still alive when you're dead, that's your choice. I just share my perspective about this when I have an opportunity. 

  Hi Tom I believe the Spiritual Body is Christ

  the mystery of Christ and His Church  is very profound in meaning   and understanding this mystery    and how Christ gave His life for Her 
those predestined    by God   were chosen to be in the world but not of it      and come out of    HIS SIDE  /rib   bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh [not the same as human flesh  ,    this was   though conception of the Holy Spirit      and was more than just   a mortal   body  when He walked the earth as Human   in my opinion ,       and  though water  of the Word and blood of Life    is the birthing of the sons of God  , flesh of His  flesh and bone of His bone  ARE THE  CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH    making new creatures in Christ and holy offspring   ,    Just as woman was made for man    so was the  Church  made for Christ    , being fruitful and multiplying   , though the   seed   which is  Christ and one of a kind   of itself    ,    in the earth   

same birthing  method of a natural birth    though intimacy , we see this as a  picture of  something not explainable     in mere human terms but ,




Eph 5  touches on it

   6 Do not let anyone ·fool [deceive] you ·by telling you things that are not true [or with shallow philosophies; L with empty words], because these things will bring God's ·anger [wrath] on ·those who do not obey him [L the children/sons of disobedience].

7 So ·have nothing to do with them [or do not partner/associate with them]. 8 In the past you were ·full of darkness [L darkness], but now you are ·full of light [L light] in the Lord.

So ·live [walk] like children ·who belong to [living in; L of] the light.



9 ·Light brings [L For the fruit of the light is] every kind of goodness, ·right living [righteousness], and truth.

10 ·Try to learn [Discern; Test and prove] what pleases the Lord.


11 ·Have nothing to do with [Take no part in] the things done in darkness, which are ·not worth anything [L unfruitful].

But ·show that they are wrong [expose them].


12 [L For] It is shameful even to talk about what those people do in secret.


13 But the light makes all things ·easy to see [visible; exposed],


14 and everything that is ·made easy to see [visible; exposed] ·can become [or becomes a; L is] light. This is why it is said:

"Wake up, sleeper!
    Rise from death,
and Christ will ·shine on [give light to] you [C likely an early Christian hymn based on Is. 26:19 and 60:1–2]."


15 So be very careful how you ·live [walk]. Do not ·live [walk] like those who are ·not wise [foolish], but ·live wisely [like those who are wise].

16 ·Take advantage of every opportunity [or Make the most of your time; L ...redeeming the time/season], because ·these are evil times [L the days are evil].


17 So do not be ·foolish [ignorant] but ·learn what the Lord wants you to do [or understand the Lord's will].


18 Do not be drunk with wine, which ·will ruin you [is debauchery/reckless living], but be filled with the Spirit.



19 ·Speak [L ...speaking] to each other with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music in your hearts to the Lord. 20 ·Always give [L ...always giving] thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wives and Husbands
21 ·Yield [Submit; Be subject; L ...yielding/submitting; C grammatically linked to the previous sentence, and so part of being filled with the Spirit] to each other out of ·reverence [respect; fear; awe] for Christ.

22 Wives, ·yield to [submit to; be subject to; L to] your husbands, as you do to the Lord,

23 because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. And he is the Savior of the body, which is the church. 24 As the church ·yields [submits; is subject] to Christ, so you wives should ·yield [submit; be subject] to your husbands in everything [Col. 3:18; 1 Pet. 3:1–6].

25 Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church [Col. 3:19; 1 Pet. 3:7] and gave himself for her 26 to ·make her holy [sanctify her], cleansing her in the washing of water by the word [C the "washing" may be (1) baptism, (2) spiritual cleansing (Titus 3:5), or (3) an analogy drawn from the Jewish prenuptial bath (Ezek. 16:8–14); the "word" may be (1) the Gospel, (2) a baptismal formula, or (3) the confession of the one baptized].


27 He did this so that he could present the church to himself ·like a bride in all her beauty [in splendor; glorious], with no ·evil or sin [L stain or wrinkle] or any other ·wrong thing in it [L such thing], but ·pure [holy] and ·without fault [blameless]. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as they love their own bodies.

The man who loves his wife loves himself.

29 [L For] No one ever hates his own ·body [T flesh], but feeds and takes care of it. And that is what Christ does for the church,

30 because we are ·parts [members] of his body. 31 The Scripture says, "·So [For this reason] a man will leave his father and mother and be ·united [joined] with his wife, and the two will become one ·body [flesh; Gen. 2:24]."


32 This ·secret [mystery] is ·very important [or great; profound]—I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 ·But [However; In any case; or To sum up] each one of you must love his wife as he loves himself, and a wife must ·respect [reverence; v. 21] her husband.

  When Paul spoke of making  chaste virgins for Christ this is what he meant and also we have to learn to Discern the Lords Body  Just who is   belonging to Christ

and of the true Church   His Own body whom He loves and  gave Himself for   her

   Our  labour is the understand the mystery of Gods will/desire    and   Love Christ the head and all authority and   His Body the true Church   as ourselves 

this labour is not in vain  or  for nothing      ,  Labour is like  the troubles   and sufferings  of Christ & body  /Church   the woman   birthing  children to the   Lord  , bringing in the new  and living way  as Family of Gods household    ,
works is the     ownership of Being the Lords possession  and     being bought with a price    , He is     the Master    Head  of the   cause   of being about His Fathers  business      , those in the market place   being hired to serve   Him

I think "the body of Christ" is a "spiritual body," so to speak, but I think Paul spoke about our soulish bodies being changed to spiritual bodies when we're immortalized.

"Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:42-55)

Quote from: rosered on April 20, 2015, 06:57:57 PM

So ·live [walk] like children ·who belong to [living in; L of] the light.

9 ·Light brings [L For the fruit of the light is] every kind of goodness, ·right living [righteousness], and truth.

10 ·Try to learn [Discern; Test and prove] what pleases the Lord.

13 But the light makes all things ·easy to see [visible; exposed],

14 and everything that is ·made easy to see [visible; exposed] ·can become [or becomes a; L is] light. This is why it is said:

"Wake up, sleeper!
    Rise from death,
and Christ will ·shine on [give light to] you

With thankfulness we can ever approach the Beloved of our Hearts,
Who is ever waiting to listen to our petitions.
We may see more clearly if He so grants, if we so ask.
He makes it possible that we can free ourselves from the lesser self,
to penetrate into that holy of holies which He has freely opened to all through His Christ.

Father God can grant the rising above all things of physical life, body and mind,
He can grant success to those anxious to do as He would have them do,
We can pray with all our being that He makes it easier for us to separate ourselves from the earth in its earthly sense,
To contact with His Spirit,
To mingle as one in outlook and understanding.

God freely grants attunement of our hearts to spiritual things,
Through holy desire He enables us to see His wondrous Love running through all things,
In every detail of our lives.
His Love defeats the destroyers again and again.

Christ is thanked,
He has brought us through with so little on the side of loss.
He makes it possible in the days to come that we be free from that which binds,
To meet our enemies unflinchingly,
Not only overcome them but in very truth,
to hold fast through the encounter to that joy which He bestows as His gift.

The sleeper shall awake, the time is at hand!

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/newbirth.html

Quote from: lastpost on April 20, 2015, 09:30:09 PM

Quote from: rosered on April 20, 2015, 06:57:57 PM

So ·live [walk] like children ·who belong to [living in; L of] the light.

9 ·Light brings [L For the fruit of the light is] every kind of goodness, ·right living [righteousness], and truth.

10 ·Try to learn [Discern; Test and prove] what pleases the Lord.

13 But the light makes all things ·easy to see [visible; exposed],

14 and everything that is ·made easy to see [visible; exposed] ·can become [or becomes a; L is] light. This is why it is said:

"Wake up, sleeper!
    Rise from death,
and Christ will ·shine on [give light to] you

With thankfulness we can ever approach the Beloved of our Hearts,
Who is ever waiting to listen to our petitions.
We may see more clearly if He so grants, if we so ask.
He makes it possible that we can free ourselves from the lesser self,
to penetrate into that holy of holies which He has freely opened to all through His Christ.

Father God can grant the rising above all things of physical life, body and mind,
He can grant success to those anxious to do as He would have them do,
We can pray with all our being that He makes it easier for us to separate ourselves from the earth in its earthly sense,
To contact with His Spirit,
To mingle as one in outlook and understanding.

God freely grants attunement of our hearts to spiritual things,
Through holy desire He enables us to see His wondrous Love running through all things,
In every detail of our lives.
His Love defeats the destroyers again and again.

Christ is thanked,
He has brought us through with so little on the side of loss.
He makes it possible in the days to come that we be free from that which binds,
To meet our enemies unflinchingly,
Not only overcome them but in very truth,
to hold fast through the encounter to that joy which He bestows as His gift.

The sleeper shall awake, the time is at hand!

   :dsunny:   Light and knowledge of Him  , mercy is given    to those calling on Him    :thumbsup:

I believe    the unseen /invisible  is even more important  than the visible of what we  can see

   Faith   granted   in hope  by His Love is what gives us  sight and  hearing and   an understanding  heart  , this healing    from the deadly wound of sin   sickness and death

It is ALL HIM !! :HeartThrob:

This is a VERY DIFFICULT TOPIC!



However....here is what one pastor had to say about this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj9T1Kj1dbs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkdlFGPjxtM



He has some bible to back him up. However he has been attacked do to surden PERSONAL reasons!



One of them is that he believes all the those who are not in christ will simply perish! Based MOSTLY on this bible verse

"For, behold, the day comes, it burns as a furnace; and all the proud, and all who work wickedness, will be stubble; and the day that comes will burn them up," says Yahweh of Armies, "that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings. You will go out, and leap like calves of the stall. You shall tread down the wicked; for they will be ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET in the day that I make," says Yahweh of Armies!"

Book of Malachi chapter 4 verses 1-3


Theres A LOT ways to counter this verse! However i have to go to work REAL SOON!



First lets take up revelation!


"Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14  Blessed are those who do his commandments,† that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.   OUTSIDE ARE THE dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16  I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star."

Book of Revelation chapter 22 verses 12-16


Ok...they are OUTSIDE being CONSUMED by gods HOLY FIRE and will soon be TOTALLY DEAD!



Sorry...but Hebrew logic DOES NOT work that way!

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8921/nefesh-neshama-and-ruach-as-words-for-soul



In the Hebrew language the word "Nefesh" literally means ANIMATED CREATURE



You see...you are either DEAD or you are ALIVE!



That "other stuff" is based on Egyptian MYSTERY RELIGION, Greek so called "philosophy" and also Roman Catholic GNOSTICISM!



It's not biblical Hebrew!



Your either ALIVE OR DEAD and THATS IT!!!



Oh...and that verse in Malachi...

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare."

2 Peter 3:10



When Jesus comes, a lot of people are going to be BURNED!!!


(http://www.mormoninfo.org/SiteData/mormoninfo-org/jesus_return3.jpg)



This IS NOT the same the Judgment of the great white throne!  7th day adventist and other bible literalist cant except this unfortunately because..."if everyone EVENTUALLY gets to go to heaven AFTER the age lasting correction...then whats the point of serving god and following christ right now?"


Well the POINT is this = you either BELIEVE the BIBLE or you DONT!


CASE CLOSED!!!

The point in serving Christ now...instead of later, is that it is only in Him that we live without Him we are dead inside we are lost looking for fulfillment elsewhere where we will never find it. In Him alone I find fulfillment, true complete love, joy, peace and lfe regardless of my circumstances.  :dsunny: