Faith and Works

[Jordanwhite]

Even as regards Grace, Sheila, Paul reveals to us that we are "Justified," (something much different than forgiven) that is to say, "declared or constituted right. " And not a only that, but apart from works. James is the one who (probably) remarked of the Jews that "they were zealous after the law," in Acts 21:20. Not only did he say this, but he encouraged Paul to guard the law. Can we see the differences between the two? Was Paul teaching people to keep the customs of Moses? And we cannot forget that this section specifically concerns the "Jews among the nations." Paul preached salvation from sin and death, and reconciliation to God all of which was effected by Christ, and Christ alone, even our faith is not our ourselves, but is a gift given to the "called," by God that he might "justify," them through faith by Grace. James seems to have something altogether different in mind, but a salvation effected nonetheless by God. Just like repentance belonged to the preaching of the kingdom (and when the kingdom was no longer at hand, was put away as evident in Scripture) I believe this works = justification business was put away to, and primarily (if not solely) concerned the Jews in light of the kingdom promised to Israel, the earthly kingdom they expected during the first century, but we're not obedient that they would receive it. But Paul again comes to us with a revelation from God when he tells us that Israel was hardened for our sakes, that we might be grafted in, and even further than being grafted in, we are seated in the heavens with Christ. I know I have detoured a little ways, and by no means intend to insult or offend anyone at all. I just contend that there is a reason why justification apart from works, solely upon Christ one righteous act, appears no where else outside of Paul. It is no coincidence that he is the apostle to the Gentiles and that the resurrected, ascended, and glorified Christ appeared to him and delivered to him his revelation. Whereas Israel's promises regard the earth, and Gentiles were indeed made sharers of this, in the due season it was revealed that our inheritance is in the heavens. With love to all. Thank you for tolerating my rambling. I haven't seen the three new replies, so forgive me if this stifles the convo

[eaglesway]

all is well Jordan, share freely as you will :o)

[sheila]

..the reason they didn't recieve it..was due to their rejection of the 'seed' that would save them them from their disobedience

  under the law.......[wrapped up in unbelief] thus satan had all the kingdoms[saints were overcome] and Jesus stated 'My Kingdom

  is not from this source"

  Everyone seems to forget that the law covenant included ATONEMENT.....which dealt with any tresspasses...BUT ATONEMENT IS

THE END OF LAW AND THE WIPING AWAY OF ALL THE TRANSGRESSIONS.for national Israel as well as individually.

   You need the Lamb's blood on your doorpost to have light in your house..to leave bondage and land of slavery..and enter into

  the promises..........those in slavery to sin/Pharoah..forced to do 'brick works/work of your hands" in Egypt to live[all their lives

  captive due to fear of death]

    Israel was to be a BLESSING UNTO ALL NATIONS.........and so she has proved to be...for the hardening of them was blessings of

  God flowing to the nations.....and the recieving of them back in..will be like life from the dead...

    Belief in Jesus Christ[seed/promise] is counted as RIGHTeousness..and justifies us in God's eyes...because those who don't

  enter in..do so through unbelief in Jesus Christ.  Atonement=forgiveness+enter into right standing relationship with God/deliverance

  by mighty power/hand of God to inherit the promise..life eternal

[Seth]

I just contend that there is a reason why justification apart from works, solely upon Christ one righteous act, appears no where else outside of Paul.

What I believe is that Paul taught justification apart from work of the Law. Not apart from all kinds of works. Those scriptures need to be looked at contextually. Circumcision does not make anyone righteous. I posted this before but I think it provides a pretty good link between James and Paul.

Titus 3
3 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

The word justified simply means "righteous." God makes us righteous through grace by joining us together with Christ unto the "washing and rebirth of regeneration" of the Holy Spirit.

If Paul says that we are to be saved from disobedience, then by definition he was not excluding works from the concept of salvation. Just not works of the Law, because they don't eminate from faith. Under Paul's definition of salvation from disobedience, the phrase "faith without works is dead" is common sense both for Jews and Gentile. How can a Gentile be saved from disobedience without DOING what Jesus says to do?

Paul was excluding works of the Law and giving credit for obedience to the inward work of God and not ourselves.

[Jordanwhite]

I do think indeed think we agree Seth, it's simply the basis upon which we are justified (concerning which I think we are talking around each other). It seems that in an attempt of some to reconcile Paul and James they lose them both. James do not simply say you are justified by faith, and God produces good works (or as Paul says, he wills in us to do his will), but that we are justified by works and faith, not simply faith, and Christ one act of righteousness seems to be completely out of the picture. I agree, were saved from disobedience, but we were not justified by works and are not now. We were saved from many things, but in the overview of it we were saved from death, and deaths sting, sin, all of this effected by Christ, and comes to us by God's divine influence (Grace), through faith (that not of ourselves).
In Paul so much so are we justified apart from works and sin, that literally nothing can condemn us. That is the truth of the justification, unlike forgiveness it can't be taken away, nor merited. In Paul, and what Paul has in view, there is absolutely nothing to boast in on our part. In James there appears to be much to boast in. It is no surprise that this way which allowed man a place failed, that is, did not deliver the Kingdom. God knew this and Christ prophesied that ultimately the Jews would miss the Kingdom promised to them, but this too was of God. It's just like the Law, it made the flesh infirm, it made sin abound, and ultimately prophesied its' and its' subjects inability to bring about its fulfilled in the perfecting of those it concerned. In Deuteronomy God told Israel that they would stray and be held captive. With man failure is inevitable. But in the coming times The Deliverer will indeed turn unrighteousness away from Jacob, and take away their trespasses. Christ will effect this as promised, and it will succeed because it will depend solely on Him.
I've found that of all the helpful materials on these subjects, the ones published by Concordant Publishing Concern are most helpful. I would recommend them to all. They are much better at explaining things plainly than I am.

[jabcat]

Written prior to reading but the first few lines of Jordan's new post     

I just contend that there is a reason why justification apart from works, solely upon Christ one righteous act

It's OK Jordan, you're doing fine.  I have dear brothers that I have disagreements with on some of these "nuances", as some of us old-timers have some variances of view on some of these more intricate things.  I agree with a lot of what several people say about it, but sort of split off in some areas too.  Just share how you see it, expound upon why, and realize God has to ultimately show us truth.   :thumbsup:

I very much agree with your statement above.  I don't believe our works have ANYTHING to do with saving us.  Only Christ's blood, His Spirit's drawing, and Him giving us the faith to believe/trust in Him as Savior.  I believe scripture clearly says that's how we become a child of God.  Nothing else.

I believe works are important, but I believe ONLY as an outflow and consequence of that relationship and as He directs and empowers us to do them and works them through us (believers).  That's why I can't boast.  Of ANYTHING, save the cross and Christ, etc.  I believe in obedience, faithfulness, etc., but only, again, as He leads and empowers, as I SURRENDER to Him (not my own efforts).  Otherwise, I could talk (boast) about how obedient, surrendered, and faithful I am, what I've attained toward my salvation [and leave Christ and the cross out of it, or diminish it] when in fact, I'm a wretched man saved by the grace of God through Christ, and totally dependent on Him.  I believe salvation is totally of God, and that faithfulness and all good works are also of God, but our willingness to surrender and be used of Him will  either bring or deprive of rewards - not earn or keep our salvation, which is sealed by the Holy Spirit upon receipt, without revocation, and kept unto that day.

[Jordanwhite]

    Israel was to be a BLESSING UNTO ALL NATIONS.........and so she has proved to be...for the hardening of them was blessings of

  God flowing to the nations.....and the recieving of them back in..will be like life from the dead...

Great, great point. Never thought of that.

[Jordanwhite]

Amen Jabcat. Thank you for your graceful and instructing words. I am indeed learning what man's part precisely is. I figured it was best to start with God's sovereignty and complete ability to work everything to the council of his will, and work my way from there Scripturally to figure out what that really means.

And to Seth, I don't at all intend to create discord (though I find I am able to do that far too easily). I am actually very much indebted to the Grace of God given to you in so many ways. Keep seeking God, and keep passing it on (I'm sure many silent readers are benefitting from your work). It has been an honor to read your post these last two years, and it is great to finally discuss with you. The best way for me to learn things is through discussion, to see if what I am now convinced of is really all that convincing after all. It's a great way to test and see if things are so. Everyone is helping with that.

[dajomaco]

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

[sheila]

 ....Abraham blieved God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Abraham and Sarah bodies were reckoned

as good as dead....old..then God's power came and Sarah concieved a son[promised/Isaac]

     now..Sarah and Abraham made an attempt to do the works of God[be obedient/bring forth fruit]...and Hagaar had Ishmael

      but the power of God brought forth the fruit in them. and Sarah said..cast out this bondwoman and her son..as they

    shall not inherit with my son[free woman]

      works is the same way

   

[dajomaco]

Written prior to reading but the first few lines of Jordan's new post     

I just contend that there is a reason why justification apart from works, solely upon Christ one righteous act

It's OK Jordan, you're doing fine.  I have dear brothers that I have disagreements with on some of these "nuances", as some of us old-timers have some variances of view on some of these more intricate things.  I agree with a lot of what several people say about it, but sort of split off in some areas too.  Just share how you see it, expound upon why, and realize God has to ultimately show us truth.   :thumbsup:


:iagree: :dsunny:

I very much agree with your statement above.  I don't believe our works have ANYTHING to do with saving us.  Only Christ's blood, His Spirit's drawing, and Him giving us the faith to believe/trust in Him as Savior.  I believe scripture clearly says that's how we become a child of God.  Nothing else.

I believe works are important, but I believe ONLY as an outflow and consequence of that relationship and as He directs and empowers us to do them and works them through us (believers).  That's why I can't boast.  Of ANYTHING, save the cross and Christ, etc.  I believe in obedience, faithfulness, etc., but only, again, as He leads and empowers, as I SURRENDER to Him (not my own efforts).  Otherwise, I could talk (boast) about how obedient, surrendered, and faithful I am, what I've attained toward my salvation [and leave Christ and the cross out of it, or diminish it] when in fact, I'm a wretched man saved by the grace of God through Christ, and totally dependent on Him.  I believe salvation is totally of God, and that faithfulness and all good works are also of God, but our willingness to surrender and be used of Him will  either bring or deprive of rewards - not earn or keep our salvation, which is sealed by the Holy Spirit upon receipt, without revocation, and kept unto that day.

[sheila]

Beautiful post Jab....... :dsunny:

[Seth]

In Paul so much so are we justified apart from works and sin, that literally nothing can condemn us. That is the truth of the justification, unlike forgiveness it can't be taken away, nor merited. In Paul, and what Paul has in view, there is absolutely nothing to boast in on our part. In James there appears to be much to boast in.

I don't think so, personally. Paul and James agreed on the necessity for the inward dwelling of the word.


James 1
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: 20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Notice: OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us. Just like Paul James credits the indwelling Spirit as a gift of grace, not as a wage for working the Law. No boasting in that.

James is not crediting man at all. But he is saying that if the works of obedience are not produced by those who claim to belong to Christ, then how can they say they have been saved from disobedience itself? But James was not saying that if they do produce righteous works that they can credit themselves. Because as he says "every good GIFT comes from God."

[Seth]

And to Seth, I don't at all intend to create discord (though I find I am able to do that far too easily). I am actually very much indebted to the Grace of God given to you in so many ways. Keep seeking God, and keep passing it on (I'm sure many silent readers are benefitting from your work). It has been an honor to read your post these last two years, and it is great to finally discuss with you. The best way for me to learn things is through discussion, to see if what I am now convinced of is really all that convincing after all. It's a great way to test and see if things are so. Everyone is helping with that.

:friendstu:

You haven't said anything that I believe has sown discord. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

[jabcat]

Thanks sheila, i liked your post as well..also daj, jordan, seth, john et al.  Good discussion, many good things said by all.   :Peace2:

[Jordanwhite]

I haven't seen the most recent response

Beautiful analogy Sheila! The promise was not by the Law, nor the law of the promise. Those things which were given to Israel are but for a time in light of the Kingdom. Indeed they haven't been given their inheritance yet. Our inheritance transcends the Kingdom promised to Israel and the things by which the Kingdom was to be earned and kept. I think I may have stepped farther than, or maybe simply away from the Biblical text you reference. Works righteousness was bondage, a bondage that believing Jews were still zealous after decades after Christ ascension. But it must be seen that our inheritance, our allotment is on the heavens, Israel's in upon the earth as Paul said in Galatians chapter 4.

Seth, you are definitely right. James and Paul speak in one voice here. "We are begotten (saved) God's will." This is one of the areas where we can divide clearly the Word because there has been a precedent established whereupon we can determine that this word pertains to both Jew and Gentile. The precedent was established by Christ in Paul. But it can't be said to be the case concerning every demographic. Paul says in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free, but he himself says specific things for/concerning each of those demographics. There is a good news that pertains specifically to Jews, and a general good news. There can be good news addressed to a person specifically, and we can understand that good news, learn from that good news, and appreciate it as ultimately addressed to someone else. I'm not saying that there is a different Good News outside of Christ death, burial, and resurrection. That applies to all, but in different ways. God has a word which he is going to fulfill specifically for Israel as he has promised. I believe the apostles to the Circumcision taught in light of this hope, but the Jews fell short by merit of God's hardening. Even in this though, Paul's Gospel (as he called it, we know as he did that it is the revelation he received solely from Christ) superexceeded into a glorious "much more" because in Paul we saw Christ glorified beyond his ascension, as we will be when he transforms us and snatches us as way at the resurrection. In Paul we see the end, the general overview as regards everyone and everything. I don't think James, Jude, Peter, or John (1,2, & 3 John + Revelation) gives us that. They're words concerned specific details, specific ages, regarding specific people. They didn't have much for the Gentiles at all. Like Jesus in his earthly ministry the Gentiles may be talked of often, but they are rarely talked to; they are the subject in someone else's mail, not the person the mail is addressed to. In Paul is the only time we ever see I any measure of reversal to that precedent. We should cherish and understand that our mail and their mail don't have to agree, in fact, it'd be weird if they did.

[Seth]

I actually believe that when James refers to the 12 tribes of Israel, he is referring to the church. That  has to do with pretty much everything Paul taught about what it means to be a Jew and how that Paul considered the Jews in his contemporary earthly Jerusalem to be the seed of Hagar and therefore Gentiles. Jesus outright denied that flesh and genetics determine who he considers to be his people when he said "those who do the will of my Father are my mother and brothers." Those in fellowship with him are his people, Gentiles and a remnant of Jews in one church no dividing walls between them. That's a whole different discussion.

Concerning grace, works and salvation, I think it can be shown that Paul and James were preaching the same message about those things. Yes, I do agree that Paul gives much more information, being that he wrote most of the NT, but I don't take that to mean that the Jewish believers were given a different gospel of grace and salvation from the Gentile believers. I  think James' use of pre-mosaic Law obedience in Rahab and Abraham is very revealing in that respect. James was doing that for a very specific reason, to show that just because works of the Law do not earn the gift of the Spirit, obedience is still key to the idea expressed in Matthew: he will be named Jesus because he shall save his people from their sin. Disobedience is a sin whether Jew or Gentile, so salvation is the same between them.

Anyway, I don't want to end  up repeating myself. But I do believe that James is misunderstood in Christian theology.  :HeartThrob:

[dajomaco]

Jordan said
Even in this though, Paul's Gospel (as he called it, we know as he did that it is the revelation he received solely from Christ) superexceeded into a glorious "much more" because in Paul we saw Christ glorified beyond his ascension,
:iagree: :HeartThrob:

[Jordanwhite]

Thank you Dajomaco 💞.

It could be so that James refers to "The Israel of God," or "True Jews," but even as Paul said those things, he also spoke of Jews after the flesh, and of the house of Jacob. There simply as to be a precedent for that assertion that we may be on firm footing.

[Seth]

Personally, I see a difference between "scattered abroad" vs gathered together under the banner of the the earthly Jerusalem, which Paul identifies rather provocatively as children of slavery and of Hagar, not of Isaac. The scattered tribes that James refers to are the ones that he says not only have faith, but have been born again by the will of God. I think all Gentiles and Jews who believe are identified by Paul as Jews according to the circumcision of the heart (by the will of God) and I think James is reflecting that in his language.

[Seth]

I thought I would provide a bit on on what I think about the statements made in Romans 4: "to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

I used to believe that meant that as long as I believe in Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do. Technically, I could watch my enemy drowning in a river, refuse to save him even if I could, and God still thinks I am righteous because "my faith is counted for righteousness" even as I "worketh not." Now, I believe I was wrong about how I viewed the scripture and I was taking it out of context with everything Paul wrote both before and after that sentence.

I actually begin with what John said about sin: sin is lawlessness. Breaking his commandments is sin.

1 John 3:23
And this is his command, to believe in Jesus and love one another as he commanded

Not believing in Jesus is a sin. It's lawlessness because it is against his command, and Jesus came to save us from sin. He came to save us from not believing in him and from not loving our neighbor. So, when someone DOES believe in Jesus, his faith is credited to him for righteousness because he has fulfilled the first command that John outlined. It's not a sin to believe in Jesus. It's righteousness to believe in him. But what about the second command? And love one another....

I understand Romans 4:5 by first looking at Romans 2.

Romans 2:26, 28
For if the uncircumcision (gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? For he is not a jew which is one outwardly. Neither is circumcision which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew which is inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart in the Spirit AND NOT THE LETTER

What? Gentiles can be Jews? How can that be unless the letter of the Law is set aside which says that you must be circumcised on the 8th day or be expelled from the people? So, Paul spends Romans 3 and 4 using the example of Abraham - out of their very own scriptures - to defend his teaching that man can be considered righteous by God without works of the Law. Take a look at the father of the Jews, have faith first, THEN circumcised physically. This follows the pattern of the New Covenant believer: have faith first, then receive the Spirit.

And even while not having the Law, the Gentiles can still fulfill the righteousness of the Law (which is love thy neighbor) without the letter. We go on to the next chapter:

Romans 3
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

"The law that requires faith." What is the law that requires faith? I believe it's God's own mouth. It was expressed 1 John 3:23. These are his commands: believe in Jesus and love thy neighbor. We can do that APART from the Law, because we are justified (righteous) by his grace which comes by way of faith. According to Paul, "grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness." (Titus 2:11-12). In other words, grace affects our works in a way that the letter of the Law could not, and thus we are made righteous without works of the Law.

So Paul is talking about faith insofar as it leads to grace and how grace creates righteousness. He is still defending his teaching that Gentiles are able to receive a "circumcision of the heart by the spirit" and thus not according to works of the letter of the Law.

Romans 4
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Is Paul suddenly not talking about works of the Law here when he says "the one who does not work?" In Romans 2 he told us about Gentiles receiving the Spirit and fulfilling the righteousness of the Law without being under the Law. He's showing us that Abraham had faith and that faith was credited to him for righteousness, thus refuting the idea that righteousness can only come from the letter of the Law. Abraham was righteous before that. Abraham fulfilled "the law that requires faith" and thus his faith was credited, not as sin, but as righteousness to him.

Romans 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Paul rests his case to the Judaizers. Indeed, if the Gentiles fulfill the righteousness of the Law will not their UNCIRCUMCISION be COUNTED for circumcision? Yes, meaning they will be counted as lawful apart from the Law, because they both believe in Jesus AND love their neighbor. Paul says that if one believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth, he will be saved. That, I believe, is because of what he says in Romans 4: the promise comes by faith so that it may be by grace

The promise is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit chastens us, by grace, to abandon ungodliness in this present age. Thus, we are saved from the lawlessness that is not believing Jesus and not loving our neighbor.

Let's go back to

Romans 2:
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

So much for my previous assumption that I can say I am righteous without works, by believing in Jesus yet letting my enemy drown in the river. That would be the classic definition of "following evil."

Obviously, Romans 4:5 reconciles with that above scripture, doesn't it? I believe it does in the sense that while God will not punish someone for not being under the Law, or doing works of the Law, his commandments are: believe in Jesus and love thy neighbor. By believing in Jesus, that faith is credited to us for righteousness, but for those who have faith but waver, and pursue evil, there will be "trouble and distress." That's because faith is supposed to be completed by works, like James says, and I believe as Paul is saying. But, both Paul and James acknowledge that faith comes first.

The faithful are righteous before God, not the Judaizers.

[eaglesway]

Personally, I see a difference between "scattered abroad" vs gathered together under the banner of the the earthly Jerusalem, which Paul identifies rather provocatively as children of slavery and of Hagar, not of Isaac. The scattered tribes that James refers to are the ones that he says not only have faith, but have been born again by the will of God. I think all Gentiles and Jews who believe are identified by Paul as Jews according to the circumcision of the heart (by the will of God) and I think James is reflecting that in his language.

I agree. I see, personally, the resolution of this question in Hebrews 12, the entire chapter, but especially verses 1,2 & 22-28

12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is the author and finisher of all faith, the Alpha & Omega.... we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". In Revelations 10 we see the "one new man", clothed in the cloud, head in the heavens, bearing the eternal gospel.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speak better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speak. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


Mt Zion, in this metaphoric, or language of spiritual reality, is the place where God will remove all remaining veils in the ages to come,

Isaiah 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

I think the writer of Hebrews is revealing the universal assembly, the "great congregation" (Psalms 40), the tabernacle of God from an eternal(time transcendent) point of view(It is finished).

Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

To me this speaks of the vanquishing of all the adversaries and the gathering together of all things into the ALL IN ALL, which is proceeding age by age, each in their own order.

This order can be a bit confusing since, as Paul said it, "the Jew first and then the Gentile" and "the natural branches were cut-off so that the wild branches could be grafted in", but after that operation which occurs "in Christ" there is only one- "one body, one Lord, one faith, etc(eph 4)

This grafting creates the "one new man" in Christ, the "two made one", the "wall of partition taken down" in the spirit as regards this age and the next, "having received a kingdom" all who are of "those who were first to believe in Christ(Eph 1:12)

But when Paul speaks of natural Jews and Gentiles, there is only really His attitude and the language of context available to make the distinction- but it is clear he speaks of earthly Zion and Jerusalem, not the heavenly one that is "coming down out of heaven" to be a refuge and a well of life for all men, for "in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, slave or freeman, Greek or Scythian" yet He speaks of Jews and Gentiles and Greeks- "Greeks seek knowledge and Jews seek a sign". I think the seed of it all begins with Abel(in time, after the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world), whereas Cain would be a type for the subjection("I will make all your enemies a footstool for your feet")- wheat and tares separated at the harvest(the end of the age).

Abel, Noah, Abraham(patriarchs/Israel), David, Christ, the ecclesia(those who are His at His coming, gathered in this age through the gospel- Jew or Gentile) -following  the root, the trunk, the branches of the olive tree, and the house of prayer for all peoples that will go in and out of it in the ages to come, "Come let us go to the mountain of the house of the Lord to behold the glory of the Lord and learn His ways".

Personally I think the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem includes the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" from Abel, to Zechariah, to John the Baptist and all who have ever or will ever overcome in faithfulness to God as first resurrection saints because of their overcoming mortal obedience. The general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven are all the rest of those whose names are written in the lamb's book of life. Along with them are all the angels who serve God.

One of the reasons that the author speaks to these Hebrews with so many metaphors out of Judaism is to reveal and reaffirm for them the universality of the new tabernacle and the new priesthood, which automatically transfers all the revelation to any who are "grafted in", who are "living stones" fitly joined to the Chief Cornerstone, who are members of the ecclesia gathered as "the fulness of Him who fills all in all"- which includes every member over which He is head over all things(Eph 1) in the "one body"(eph 4)

[Seth]

 :dsunny: :thumbsup:

[dajomaco]

Our WORK
Our neighbors ,the ones we are to love .
These neighbors have already been prepared to receive our love.
We are surrounded by neighbors ready to receive our love.

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[eaglesway]

Beautimous! No need to stray outside those lines, no matter what else may cause doubt or question, within that circle one can find the heart of God.