Faith and Works

[Eduard]

I've seen this debate in other places so I wanted to know your opinions. Many claim that Paul and James are contradicting each other, but I don't think that's the case.

We are being saved by grace through faith and not by works, but real faith means the believer listens to Christ's words to love our neighbor, be forgiving and not seek vengeance, do not lust, and even to love our enemies and pray for them, which leads us to doing good works. If someone claims to be a believer but in real life acts the opposite to Jesus' teachings, then, as John wrote, he is a liar, and his faith is indeed "dead", as James wrote.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

What do you think?  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/faith-works-and-grace-11887/

[Seth]

I've seen this debate in other places so I wanted to know your opinions. Many claim that Paul and James are contradicting each other, but I don't think that's the case.

We are being saved by grace through faith and not by works, but real faith means the believer listens to Christ's words to love our neighbor, be forgiving and not seek vengeance, do not lust, and even to love our enemies and pray for them, which leads us to doing good works. If someone claims to be a believer but in real life acts the opposite to Jesus' teachings, then, as John wrote, he is a liar, and his faith is indeed "dead", as James wrote.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

What do you think?  :2c:

Hi Eduard,
I believe that Grace is misunderstood in Christian theology. Titus 2:11-12 contains a teaching about Grace that totally changed my way of thinking about it. It says that Grace brings salvation from sin by teaching (the Greek word is actually "chastening) us to abandon ungodliness. It refers to the teaching of the Spirit which lived inwardly. The Law is the righteousness of God by the letter, so until the Spirit was given, it was weak through the flesh to bring healing/salvation  from sin. Grace is what causes man to obey Christ's teaching. And we access Grace through faith. That's how we receive the Spirit to walk by it.

The Spirit is what causes the works to change and that by Grace.

[Seth]

I forgot to add that apostle James says, "what good is it if someone has faith but no works, can that faith save him?" The clear implied answer is "no."

For the ET folks that's a near impossible scripture to reconcile with their belief because they think James was talking about salvation from hell. But his example is of Rahab. Rahab was not saved from hell but from the destruction of her own city, by not only believing God, but obeying. Peter always preached that he wanted people to receive the Spirit and "save yourselves from this wicked generation."

In type and shadow, I believe Rehab's salvation from her city's destruction represents salvation from our own morally corrupt generation through faith and obedience.

BTW, Rehab was a Gentile.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/faith-works-and-grace-11887/

Fantastic OP  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

I believe it like this;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/faith-works-and-grace-11887/msg163260/#msg163260

[Seth]

I agree. Faith comes first, then the Spirit, then works. I'd also add that not doing anything can also be a sin. For example, suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

I've heard it described as "faith that works" :)  :dsunny:

[jabcat]

as i puzzle over such things, one thought i've had is "if all i had to do was behave well, do good things, understand all the right ["secondary"] doctrines [ET vs UR], or even who Jesus is beyond the Son of God who died for my sins and I need to call on Him as Savior;   then why would Jesus have had to die for my sins?".  That's why I believe it's a miracle.  He calls, gives faith, delivers, and it's all through His work on the cross.    Then He enables us to do the things He prepared beforehand for those called and chosen (first in this life, then all in the next, as every knee bows and every heart submits). 

The cross.  Being "called to the cross".  Being sure we rightly divide things in light of either the Law prior to the cross, or grace flowing from the cross.  Much to consider.  Will take me a lifetime and beyond.  In the meantime, Jesus died, rose again, sits at the right hand of the Father interceding for us!  Blessings.

[Seth]

 :dsunny:

I believe Jesus had to die for our sins to free us from the Old Covenant requiring blood, so that he could replace our inner man with himself. From a covenant of bondage to one of life and hope.

[Jordanwhite]

I think that it all comes down to rightly dividing the Word. James was an apostle to the Circumcision, Paul to the Uncircumcision. Their teachings concerned different people's, though Paul's was more general and is the revelation for today, whereas I believe James teachings were in light of the promised Kingdom of Israel (to whom is letter is addressed). And I don't mean that these teachings are some how different Gospels, but that they are different applications of the Gospel that the son of God came in flesh, died, was roused and is now glorified, doing all of this to redeem us from death, and free us from sin. The place of Good works simply comes in (in Paul's letters) as walking worthily. It is not a coincidence that justification by works and faith appears primarily (if not solely) in the letters of Circumcision apostles letters to the Circumcision.

[jabcat]

some may tout variances from what you said Jordan, while others downright disagree.  but I personally think you make tremendous points that should be considered strongly in trying to understand/reconcile these things   :2c:   :thumbsup:

[Seth]

But I think James was choosing his example very carefully by setting forth an example of how a member of the uncircumcision, Rehab, was saved from Jericho (not hell) by both faith and works.

See, James is very clear in James 1 about Grace. He says this

James 1:21
Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

So he starts the book off by saying the internal Word, implanted, is what saves us. Well, in Ephesians Paul says that "ye have been joined together with Christ, by Grace yet have been saved." Paul equates salvation with being joined with Christ just like James. But James is explaining what ought to result externally. Look what Paul says:

Titus 3
3 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

This scripture to informs me as to what works do and do not have to do with salvation from sin. It's not that we worked to earn the Spirit. It's given by ELECTION. But when it comes it saves us from disobedience (ie not hell).

That's where works do come into the picture. If the Spirit (a gift not a wage) saves us from disobedience, that would naturally mean that if we WALK according to the Spirit we would do the works he commands.

Otherwise faith has not saved us from disobedience by the washing of the inherited spirit.

[Seth]

I believe that James and Paul were preaching an identical Gospel.

[CHB]

I agree with you. The first chapter of James tells us that this was written to the twelve tribes of Israel.

CHB

I think that it all comes down to rightly dividing the Word. James was an apostle to the Circumcision, Paul to the Uncircumcision. Their teachings concerned different people's, though Paul's was more general and is the revelation for today, whereas I believe James teachings were in light of the promised Kingdom of Israel (to whom is letter is addressed). And I don't mean that these teachings are some how different Gospels, but that they are different applications of the Gospel that the son of God came in flesh, died, was roused and is now glorified, doing all of this to redeem us from death, and free us from sin. The place of Good works simply comes in (in Paul's letters) as walking worthily. It is not a coincidence that justification by works and faith appears primarily (if not solely) in the letters of Circumcision apostles letters to the Circumcision.

[dajomaco]

I believe faith comes before works.
It is very important what you have faith in.
Some people have faith in their works.
By having faith in their works they lower the standard.
The standard is perfection and nothing less

Love faith......

[Seth]

It begs the question: how can anyone be saved from disobedience apart from works? Paul provides the answer right there.

If Jesus says be kind, and you are cruel instead, how have you been saved from disobedience by faith alone?

[dajomaco]

The author of the book of James was the half-brother of Jesus according to the flesh.
He was not one of the original 12
He preached the gospel.
I personally believe he struggled more than any other disciple in
regards to letting go of Moses and the traditions.
This I believe, his letter adds depth and understanding to Paul and his
obedience to go to the uncircumcised.
Paul had strong warnings about giving up the freedom of the gospel. 

[dajomaco]

It begs the question: how can anyone be saved from disobedience apart from works? Paul provides the answer right there.

If Jesus says be kind, and you are cruel instead, how have you been saved from disobedience by faith alone?

START with faith or else you will devour yourself and others.

[Seth]

It was Paul who preached salvation from disobedience itself which logically reinforces James argument that faith without works is dead. I don't see James in the midst of a struggle there. James was never preaching works of the Law but works of faithfulness and love and trust toward God. Both Paul and James agreed on the implications of the inward Word on our actions.

Start with faith, END with obedience. Both apostles preached this.

[sheila]

GRACE=undeserved kindness of God....Father forgive them..they know not what they do. otherwise,then our salvation depends

upon us and our works..NOT HIS.   how hard it is to forgive when you are not love...how easy it is to not count tresspassess

when you are love.

   all men bound up in sin[disobedience] that which I do not desire to do,I do]  who will save me from this body undergoing this death?

    that,the good that I wish to do,I do not.

   Praise be to God and Jesus Christ.......

   can we be faithful in a few things....and still enter into the joy of our Lord? Yes........

   You can do nothing of your self[if we can't do nothing of ourself..how are 'our' works saving us? rather..I say...God will do His works

  in us by His holy spirit..if we remain in Christ......His spirit will give us what to speak in that hour..........no one knows where the wind

come from..or where it is going..so,too, those born along of the Holy spirit..I say,if that is how it is..and it is..then how can

any man judge/claim 'works' of his own,or other's.

   Phpns 1;17 it is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry,but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love

  knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition[WHAT? surely

they are not being born along of the Holy spirit in this?] not sincerely..............BUT WHAT DOES IT MATTER? The important thing

is that in every way,whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached........

   MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE.........

[Seth]

Amen

[dajomaco]

It was Paul who preached salvation from disobedience itself which logically reinforces James argument that faith without works is dead. I don't see James in the midst of a struggle there. James was never preaching works of the Law but works of faithfulness and love and trust toward God. Both Paul and James agreed on the implications of the inward Word on our actions.

Start with faith, END with obedience. Both apostles preached this.

:iagree:
Start with faith, End with obedience.There is no other way.

Start( If HE be lifted up. He will draw ALL men)

[Seth]

 :gthumbsup:

[eaglesway]

I agree Sheila.

Jesus defined salvation, on one level, as water flowing up from within. "He that believes in me, out of his innermost being shall spring up rivers of living water"......Later, in Revelation, the Spirit and the Bride say "Come, let anyone who thirsts drink freely of the water of life".

Until Jesus comes into our lives we are parched, desert ground, focused on ourselves. We are without form and void. Darkness covers the face of the deep.

We examine things as concepts and we draw them out in two dimensions and it is dry, very dry :o)

After Jesus is implanted within us a well opens up and life begins to flow and that life has evidences. The fruit of the spirit. The gradual sanctification of our attitudes and our actions as we "get watered" from within. Some do "works" and their "obedience" is religious in nature and has no value in reducing the "focus on self" of the carnal man.

Disobedience/obedience measured by a black and white standard looks one way. Disobedience/obedience measured by "truth in my inward parts" looks another way entirely. That is why Jesus says "I am He that tries the reins and the hearts". The cross is the great revealer of whether we are "working" out of the self or "working" by grace through faith. He knows what works proceed from faith and love and which works are from religious flesh. He divides asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow and makes manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. We cant and shouldn't judge, but.... we can discern the fragrance of water :o)

Where the water and the sun are, seeds will grow and life will manifest as fruit and as works of love.

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Faith working through love. To me, that says it ALL very simply. Our faith leaps through the portal of this love which is in us by the new birth and manifests the fruit of the Spirit and works that bring glory to God.

It seems to me like everybody has their circumcision. A doctrine, a practice, the way we view sovereignty or free will, the way we baptize or don't, whether or not the gifts of the spirit are still around or not, but these things mean nothing compared to the essence of our faith which is simply, faith working through love.

Such things are of little or no value in teaching us "truth in the inward parts", in bringing us into "brokeness" and "purity of heart", "lowliness of mind" or "meekness". Again, we do not judge but we do discern, and water flows through the low places....and we can smell the fragrance of water.

Psalm 63:1 O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirst for thee, my flesh longs for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

Out there in the desert of religious concepts and practice, that is where the works are that will be consumed in the fire like wood hay and stubble, and only God knows..... but we can discern, we can smell the fragrance of water  :o)