I've seen this debate in other places so I wanted to know your opinions. Many claim that Paul and James are contradicting each other, but I don't think that's the case.
We are being saved by grace through faith and not by works, but real faith means the believer listens to Christ's words to love our neighbor, be forgiving and not seek vengeance, do not lust, and even to love our enemies and pray for them, which leads us to doing good works. If someone claims to be a believer but in real life acts the opposite to Jesus' teachings, then, as John wrote, he is a liar, and his faith is indeed "dead", as James wrote.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).
What do you think? :2c:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/faith-works-and-grace-11887/
Quote from: Eduard on February 16, 2015, 04:39:12 PM
I've seen this debate in other places so I wanted to know your opinions. Many claim that Paul and James are contradicting each other, but I don't think that's the case.
We are being saved by grace through faith and not by works, but real faith means the believer listens to Christ's words to love our neighbor, be forgiving and not seek vengeance, do not lust, and even to love our enemies and pray for them, which leads us to doing good works. If someone claims to be a believer but in real life acts the opposite to Jesus' teachings, then, as John wrote, he is a liar, and his faith is indeed "dead", as James wrote.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).
What do you think? :2c:
Hi Eduard,
I believe that Grace is misunderstood in Christian theology.
Titus 2:11-12 contains a teaching about Grace that totally changed my way of thinking about it. It says that Grace brings salvation from sin by teaching (the Greek word is actually "chastening) us to abandon ungodliness. It refers to the teaching of the Spirit which lived inwardly. The Law is the righteousness of God by the letter, so until the Spirit was given, it was weak through the flesh to bring healing/salvation from sin. Grace is what causes man to obey Christ's teaching. And we access Grace through faith. That's how we receive the Spirit to walk by it.
The Spirit is what causes the works to change and that by Grace.
I forgot to add that apostle James says, "what good is it if someone has faith but no works, can that faith save him?" The clear implied answer is "no."
For the ET folks that's a near impossible scripture to reconcile with their belief because they think James was talking about salvation from hell. But his example is of Rahab. Rahab was not saved from hell but from the destruction of her own city, by not only believing God, but obeying. Peter always preached that he wanted people to receive the Spirit and "save yourselves from this wicked generation."
In type and shadow, I believe Rehab's salvation from her city's destruction represents salvation from our own morally corrupt generation through faith and obedience.
BTW, Rehab was a Gentile.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 16, 2015, 06:25:36 PM
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/faith-works-and-grace-11887/
Fantastic OP :thumbsup:
I believe it like this;
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/faith-works-and-grace-11887/msg163260/#msg163260
I agree. Faith comes first, then the Spirit, then works. I'd also add that not doing anything can also be a sin. For example, suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
:thumbsup:
I've heard it described as "faith that works" :) :dsunny:
as i puzzle over such things, one thought i've had is "if all i had to do was behave well, do good things, understand all the right ["secondary"] doctrines [ET vs UR], or even who Jesus is beyond the Son of God who died for my sins and I need to call on Him as Savior; then why would Jesus have had to die for my sins?". That's why I believe it's a miracle. He calls, gives faith, delivers, and it's all through His work on the cross. Then He enables us to do the things He prepared beforehand for those called and chosen (first in this life, then all in the next, as every knee bows and every heart submits).
The cross. Being "called to the cross". Being sure we rightly divide things in light of either the Law prior to the cross, or grace flowing from the cross. Much to consider. Will take me a lifetime and beyond. In the meantime, Jesus died, rose again, sits at the right hand of the Father interceding for us! Blessings.
:dsunny:
I believe Jesus had to die for our sins to free us from the Old Covenant requiring blood, so that he could replace our inner man with himself. From a covenant of bondage to one of life and hope.
I think that it all comes down to rightly dividing the Word. James was an apostle to the Circumcision, Paul to the Uncircumcision. Their teachings concerned different people's, though Paul's was more general and is the revelation for today, whereas I believe James teachings were in light of the promised Kingdom of Israel (to whom is letter is addressed). And I don't mean that these teachings are some how different Gospels, but that they are different applications of the Gospel that the son of God came in flesh, died, was roused and is now glorified, doing all of this to redeem us from death, and free us from sin. The place of Good works simply comes in (in Paul's letters) as walking worthily. It is not a coincidence that justification by works and faith appears primarily (if not solely) in the letters of Circumcision apostles letters to the Circumcision.
some may tout variances from what you said Jordan, while others downright disagree. but I personally think you make tremendous points that should be considered strongly in trying to understand/reconcile these things :2c: :thumbsup:
But I think James was choosing his example very carefully by setting forth an example of how a member of the uncircumcision, Rehab, was saved from Jericho (not hell) by both faith and works.
See, James is very clear in James 1 about Grace. He says this
James 1:21
Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
So he starts the book off by saying the internal Word, implanted, is what saves us. Well, in Ephesians Paul says that "ye have been joined together with Christ, by Grace yet have been saved." Paul equates salvation with being joined with Christ just like James. But James is explaining what ought to result externally. Look what Paul says:
Titus 3
3 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
This scripture to informs me as to what works do and do not have to do with salvation from sin. It's not that we worked to earn the Spirit. It's given by ELECTION. But when it comes it saves us from disobedience (ie not hell).
That's where works do come into the picture. If the Spirit (a gift not a wage) saves us from disobedience, that would naturally mean that if we WALK according to the Spirit we would do the works he commands.
Otherwise faith has not saved us from disobedience by the washing of the inherited spirit.
I believe that James and Paul were preaching an identical Gospel.
I agree with you. The first chapter of James tells us that this was written to the twelve tribes of Israel.
CHB
Quote from: Jordanwhite on February 17, 2015, 01:52:40 AM
I think that it all comes down to rightly dividing the Word. James was an apostle to the Circumcision, Paul to the Uncircumcision. Their teachings concerned different people's, though Paul's was more general and is the revelation for today, whereas I believe James teachings were in light of the promised Kingdom of Israel (to whom is letter is addressed). And I don't mean that these teachings are some how different Gospels, but that they are different applications of the Gospel that the son of God came in flesh, died, was roused and is now glorified, doing all of this to redeem us from death, and free us from sin. The place of Good works simply comes in (in Paul's letters) as walking worthily. It is not a coincidence that justification by works and faith appears primarily (if not solely) in the letters of Circumcision apostles letters to the Circumcision.
I believe faith comes before works.
It is very important what you have faith in.
Some people have faith in their works.
By having faith in their works they lower the standard.
The standard is perfection and nothing less
Love faith......
It begs the question: how can anyone be saved from disobedience apart from works? Paul provides the answer right there.
If Jesus says be kind, and you are cruel instead, how have you been saved from disobedience by faith alone?
The author of the book of James was the half-brother of Jesus according to the flesh.
He was not one of the original 12
He preached the gospel.
I personally believe he struggled more than any other disciple in
regards to letting go of Moses and the traditions.
This I believe, his letter adds depth and understanding to Paul and his
obedience to go to the uncircumcised.
Paul had strong warnings about giving up the freedom of the gospel.
Quote from: Seth on February 17, 2015, 02:30:29 AM
It begs the question: how can anyone be saved from disobedience apart from works? Paul provides the answer right there.
If Jesus says be kind, and you are cruel instead, how have you been saved from disobedience by faith alone?
START with faith or else you will devour yourself and others.
It was Paul who preached salvation from disobedience itself which logically reinforces James argument that faith without works is dead. I don't see James in the midst of a struggle there. James was never preaching works of the Law but works of faithfulness and love and trust toward God. Both Paul and James agreed on the implications of the inward Word on our actions.
Start with faith, END with obedience. Both apostles preached this.
GRACE=undeserved kindness of God....Father forgive them..they know not what they do. otherwise,then our salvation depends
upon us and our works..NOT HIS. how hard it is to forgive when you are not love...how easy it is to not count tresspassess
when you are love.
all men bound up in sin[disobedience] that which I do not desire to do,I do] who will save me from this body undergoing this death?
that,the good that I wish to do,I do not.
Praise be to God and Jesus Christ.......
can we be faithful in a few things....and still enter into the joy of our Lord? Yes........
You can do nothing of your self[if we can't do nothing of ourself..how are 'our' works saving us? rather..I say...God will do His works
in us by His holy spirit..if we remain in Christ......His spirit will give us what to speak in that hour..........no one knows where the wind
come from..or where it is going..so,too, those born along of the Holy spirit..I say,if that is how it is..and it is..then how can
any man judge/claim 'works' of his own,or other's.
Phpns 1;17 it is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry,but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love
knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition[WHAT? surely
they are not being born along of the Holy spirit in this?] not sincerely..............BUT WHAT DOES IT MATTER? The important thing
is that in every way,whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached........
MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE.........
Amen
Quote from: Seth on February 17, 2015, 02:43:14 AM
It was Paul who preached salvation from disobedience itself which logically reinforces James argument that faith without works is dead. I don't see James in the midst of a struggle there. James was never preaching works of the Law but works of faithfulness and love and trust toward God. Both Paul and James agreed on the implications of the inward Word on our actions.
Start with faith, END with obedience. Both apostles preached this.
:iagree:
Start with faith, End with obedience.There is no other way.
Start( If HE be lifted up. He will draw ALL men)
:gthumbsup:
I agree Sheila.
Jesus defined salvation, on one level, as water flowing up from within. "He that believes in me, out of his innermost being shall spring up rivers of living water"......Later, in Revelation, the Spirit and the Bride say "Come, let anyone who thirsts drink freely of the water of life".
Until Jesus comes into our lives we are parched, desert ground, focused on ourselves. We are without form and void. Darkness covers the face of the deep.
We examine things as concepts and we draw them out in two dimensions and it is dry, very dry :o)
After Jesus is implanted within us a well opens up and life begins to flow and that life has evidences. The fruit of the spirit. The gradual sanctification of our attitudes and our actions as we "get watered" from within. Some do "works" and their "obedience" is religious in nature and has no value in reducing the "focus on self" of the carnal man.
Disobedience/obedience measured by a black and white standard looks one way. Disobedience/obedience measured by "truth in my inward parts" looks another way entirely. That is why Jesus says "I am He that tries the reins and the hearts". The cross is the great revealer of whether we are "working" out of the self or "working" by grace through faith. He knows what works proceed from faith and love and which works are from religious flesh. He divides asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow and makes manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. We cant and shouldn't judge, but.... we can discern the fragrance of water :o)
Where the water and the sun are, seeds will grow and life will manifest as fruit and as works of love.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Faith working through love. To me, that says it ALL very simply. Our faith leaps through the portal of this love which is in us by the new birth and manifests the fruit of the Spirit and works that bring glory to God.
It seems to me like everybody has their circumcision. A doctrine, a practice, the way we view sovereignty or free will, the way we baptize or don't, whether or not the gifts of the spirit are still around or not, but these things mean nothing compared to the essence of our faith which is simply, faith working through love.
Such things are of little or no value in teaching us "truth in the inward parts", in bringing us into "brokeness" and "purity of heart", "lowliness of mind" or "meekness". Again, we do not judge but we do discern, and water flows through the low places....and we can smell the fragrance of water.
Psalm 63:1 O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirst for thee, my flesh longs for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;
Out there in the desert of religious concepts and practice, that is where the works are that will be consumed in the fire like wood hay and stubble, and only God knows..... but we can discern, we can smell the fragrance of water :o)
Even as regards Grace, Sheila, Paul reveals to us that we are "Justified," (something much different than forgiven) that is to say, "declared or constituted right. " And not a only that, but apart from works. James is the one who (probably) remarked of the Jews that "they were zealous after the law," in Acts 21:20. Not only did he say this, but he encouraged Paul to guard the law. Can we see the differences between the two? Was Paul teaching people to keep the customs of Moses? And we cannot forget that this section specifically concerns the "Jews among the nations." Paul preached salvation from sin and death, and reconciliation to God all of which was effected by Christ, and Christ alone, even our faith is not our ourselves, but is a gift given to the "called," by God that he might "justify," them through faith by Grace. James seems to have something altogether different in mind, but a salvation effected nonetheless by God. Just like repentance belonged to the preaching of the kingdom (and when the kingdom was no longer at hand, was put away as evident in Scripture) I believe this works = justification business was put away to, and primarily (if not solely) concerned the Jews in light of the kingdom promised to Israel, the earthly kingdom they expected during the first century, but we're not obedient that they would receive it. But Paul again comes to us with a revelation from God when he tells us that Israel was hardened for our sakes, that we might be grafted in, and even further than being grafted in, we are seated in the heavens with Christ. I know I have detoured a little ways, and by no means intend to insult or offend anyone at all. I just contend that there is a reason why justification apart from works, solely upon Christ one righteous act, appears no where else outside of Paul. It is no coincidence that he is the apostle to the Gentiles and that the resurrected, ascended, and glorified Christ appeared to him and delivered to him his revelation. Whereas Israel's promises regard the earth, and Gentiles were indeed made sharers of this, in the due season it was revealed that our inheritance is in the heavens. With love to all. Thank you for tolerating my rambling. I haven't seen the three new replies, so forgive me if this stifles the convo
all is well Jordan, share freely as you will :o)
..the reason they didn't recieve it..was due to their rejection of the 'seed' that would save them them from their disobedience
under the law.......[wrapped up in unbelief] thus satan had all the kingdoms[saints were overcome] and Jesus stated 'My Kingdom
is not from this source"
Everyone seems to forget that the law covenant included ATONEMENT.....which dealt with any tresspasses...BUT ATONEMENT IS
THE END OF LAW AND THE WIPING AWAY OF ALL THE TRANSGRESSIONS.for national Israel as well as individually.
You need the Lamb's blood on your doorpost to have light in your house..to leave bondage and land of slavery..and enter into
the promises..........those in slavery to sin/Pharoah..forced to do 'brick works/work of your hands" in Egypt to live[all their lives
captive due to fear of death]
Israel was to be a BLESSING UNTO ALL NATIONS.........and so she has proved to be...for the hardening of them was blessings of
God flowing to the nations.....and the recieving of them back in..will be like life from the dead...
Belief in Jesus Christ[seed/promise] is counted as RIGHTeousness..and justifies us in God's eyes...because those who don't
enter in..do so through unbelief in Jesus Christ. Atonement=forgiveness+enter into right standing relationship with God/deliverance
by mighty power/hand of God to inherit the promise..life eternal
QuoteI just contend that there is a reason why justification apart from works, solely upon Christ one righteous act, appears no where else outside of Paul.
What I believe is that Paul taught justification apart from work of the Law. Not apart from all kinds of works. Those scriptures need to be looked at contextually. Circumcision does not make anyone righteous. I posted this before but I think it provides a pretty good link between James and Paul.
Titus 3
3 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.
3 At one time we too were foolish,
disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.
He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that,
having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
The word justified simply means "righteous." God makes us righteous through grace by joining us together with Christ unto the "washing and rebirth of regeneration" of the Holy Spirit.
If Paul says that we are to be saved from disobedience, then by definition he was not excluding works from the concept of salvation. Just not works of the Law, because they don't eminate from faith. Under Paul's definition of salvation
from disobedience, the phrase "faith without works is dead" is common sense both for Jews and Gentile. How can a Gentile be saved from disobedience without DOING what Jesus says to do?
Paul was excluding works
of the Law and giving credit for obedience to the inward work of God and not ourselves.
I do think indeed think we agree Seth, it's simply the basis upon which we are justified (concerning which I think we are talking around each other). It seems that in an attempt of some to reconcile Paul and James they lose them both. James do not simply say you are justified by faith, and God produces good works (or as Paul says, he wills in us to do his will), but that we are justified by works and faith, not simply faith, and Christ one act of righteousness seems to be completely out of the picture. I agree, were saved from disobedience, but we were not justified by works and are not now. We were saved from many things, but in the overview of it we were saved from death, and deaths sting, sin, all of this effected by Christ, and comes to us by God's divine influence (Grace), through faith (that not of ourselves).
In Paul so much so are we justified apart from works and sin, that literally nothing can condemn us. That is the truth of the justification, unlike forgiveness it can't be taken away, nor merited. In Paul, and what Paul has in view, there is absolutely nothing to boast in on our part. In James there appears to be much to boast in. It is no surprise that this way which allowed man a place failed, that is, did not deliver the Kingdom. God knew this and Christ prophesied that ultimately the Jews would miss the Kingdom promised to them, but this too was of God. It's just like the Law, it made the flesh infirm, it made sin abound, and ultimately prophesied its' and its' subjects inability to bring about its fulfilled in the perfecting of those it concerned. In Deuteronomy God told Israel that they would stray and be held captive. With man failure is inevitable. But in the coming times The Deliverer will indeed turn unrighteousness away from Jacob, and take away their trespasses. Christ will effect this as promised, and it will succeed because it will depend solely on Him.
I've found that of all the helpful materials on these subjects, the ones published by Concordant Publishing Concern are most helpful. I would recommend them to all. They are much better at explaining things plainly than I am.
Written prior to reading but the first few lines of Jordan's new post
Quote from: Jordanwhite on February 17, 2015, 03:47:48 AM
I just contend that there is a reason why justification apart from works, solely upon Christ one righteous act
It's OK Jordan, you're doing fine. I have dear brothers that I have disagreements with on some of these "nuances", as some of us old-timers have some variances of view on some of these more intricate things. I agree with a lot of what
several people say about it, but sort of split off in some areas too. Just share how you see it, expound upon why, and realize God has to ultimately show us truth. :thumbsup:
I very much agree with your statement above. I don't believe our works have ANYTHING to do with saving us. Only Christ's blood, His Spirit's drawing, and Him giving us the faith to believe/trust in Him as Savior. I believe scripture clearly says that's how we become a child of God. Nothing else.
I believe works are important, but I believe ONLY as an outflow and consequence of that relationship and as He directs and empowers us to do them and works them through us (believers). That's why I can't boast. Of ANYTHING, save the cross and Christ, etc. I believe in obedience, faithfulness, etc., but only, again, as He leads and empowers, as I SURRENDER to Him (not my own efforts). Otherwise, I could talk (boast) about how obedient, surrendered, and faithful I am, what I've attained toward my salvation [and leave Christ and the cross out of it, or diminish it] when in fact, I'm a wretched man saved by the grace of God through Christ, and totally dependent on Him. I believe salvation is totally of God, and that faithfulness and all good works are also of God, but our willingness to surrender and be used of Him will either bring or deprive of rewards - not earn or keep our salvation, which is sealed by the Holy Spirit upon receipt, without revocation, and kept unto that day.
Quote from: sheila on February 17, 2015, 04:21:24 AM
Israel was to be a BLESSING UNTO ALL NATIONS.........and so she has proved to be...for the hardening of them was blessings of
God flowing to the nations.....and the recieving of them back in..will be like life from the dead...
Quote from: sheila on February 17, 2015, 04:21:24 AM
Great, great point. Never thought of that.
Amen Jabcat. Thank you for your graceful and instructing words. I am indeed learning what man's part precisely is. I figured it was best to start with God's sovereignty and complete ability to work everything to the council of his will, and work my way from there Scripturally to figure out what that really means.
And to Seth, I don't at all intend to create discord (though I find I am able to do that far too easily). I am actually very much indebted to the Grace of God given to you in so many ways. Keep seeking God, and keep passing it on (I'm sure many silent readers are benefitting from your work). It has been an honor to read your post these last two years, and it is great to finally discuss with you. The best way for me to learn things is through discussion, to see if what I am now convinced of is really all that convincing after all. It's a great way to test and see if things are so. Everyone is helping with that.
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
....Abraham blieved God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Abraham and Sarah bodies were reckoned
as good as dead....old..then God's power came and Sarah concieved a son[promised/Isaac]
now..Sarah and Abraham made an attempt to do the works of God[be obedient/bring forth fruit]...and Hagaar had Ishmael
but the power of God brought forth the fruit in them. and Sarah said..cast out this bondwoman and her son..as they
shall not inherit with my son[free woman]
works is the same way
Quote from: jabcat on February 17, 2015, 05:07:37 AM
Written prior to reading but the first few lines of Jordan's new post
Quote from: Jordanwhite on February 17, 2015, 03:47:48 AM
I just contend that there is a reason why justification apart from works, solely upon Christ one righteous act
It's OK Jordan, you're doing fine. I have dear brothers that I have disagreements with on some of these "nuances", as some of us old-timers have some variances of view on some of these more intricate things. I agree with a lot of what several people say about it, but sort of split off in some areas too. Just share how you see it, expound upon why, and realize God has to ultimately show us truth. :thumbsup:
:iagree: :dsunny:
I very much agree with your statement above. I don't believe our works have ANYTHING to do with saving us. Only Christ's blood, His Spirit's drawing, and Him giving us the faith to believe/trust in Him as Savior. I believe scripture clearly says that's how we become a child of God. Nothing else.
I believe works are important, but I believe ONLY as an outflow and consequence of that relationship and as He directs and empowers us to do them and works them through us (believers). That's why I can't boast. Of ANYTHING, save the cross and Christ, etc. I believe in obedience, faithfulness, etc., but only, again, as He leads and empowers, as I SURRENDER to Him (not my own efforts). Otherwise, I could talk (boast) about how obedient, surrendered, and faithful I am, what I've attained toward my salvation [and leave Christ and the cross out of it, or diminish it] when in fact, I'm a wretched man saved by the grace of God through Christ, and totally dependent on Him. I believe salvation is totally of God, and that faithfulness and all good works are also of God, but our willingness to surrender and be used of Him will either bring or deprive of rewards - not earn or keep our salvation, which is sealed by the Holy Spirit upon receipt, without revocation, and kept unto that day.
Beautiful post Jab....... :dsunny:
Quote from: JordanwhiteIn Paul so much so are we justified apart from works and sin, that literally nothing can condemn us. That is the truth of the justification, unlike forgiveness it can't be taken away, nor merited. In Paul, and what Paul has in view, there is absolutely nothing to boast in on our part. In James there appears to be much to boast in.
I don't think so, personally. Paul and James agreed on the necessity for the inward dwelling of the word.
James 1
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: 20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.Notice: OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us. Just like Paul James credits the indwelling Spirit as a gift of grace, not as a wage for working the Law. No boasting in that.
James is not crediting man at all. But he is saying that if the works of obedience are not produced by those who claim to belong to Christ, then how can they say they have been saved from disobedience itself? But James was not saying that if they do produce righteous works that they can credit themselves. Because as he says "every good GIFT comes from God."
Quote from: Jordanwhite on February 17, 2015, 05:20:29 AM
And to Seth, I don't at all intend to create discord (though I find I am able to do that far too easily). I am actually very much indebted to the Grace of God given to you in so many ways. Keep seeking God, and keep passing it on (I'm sure many silent readers are benefitting from your work). It has been an honor to read your post these last two years, and it is great to finally discuss with you. The best way for me to learn things is through discussion, to see if what I am now convinced of is really all that convincing after all. It's a great way to test and see if things are so. Everyone is helping with that.
:friendstu:
You haven't said anything that I believe has sown discord. It's been a pleasure talking with you.
Thanks sheila, i liked your post as well..also daj, jordan, seth, john et al. Good discussion, many good things said by all. :Peace2:
I haven't seen the most recent response
Beautiful analogy Sheila! The promise was not by the Law, nor the law of the promise. Those things which were given to Israel are but for a time in light of the Kingdom. Indeed they haven't been given their inheritance yet. Our inheritance transcends the Kingdom promised to Israel and the things by which the Kingdom was to be earned and kept. I think I may have stepped farther than, or maybe simply away from the Biblical text you reference. Works righteousness was bondage, a bondage that believing Jews were still zealous after decades after Christ ascension. But it must be seen that our inheritance, our allotment is on the heavens, Israel's in upon the earth as Paul said in Galatians chapter 4.
Seth, you are definitely right. James and Paul speak in one voice here. "We are begotten (saved) God's will." This is one of the areas where we can divide clearly the Word because there has been a precedent established whereupon we can determine that this word pertains to both Jew and Gentile. The precedent was established by Christ in Paul. But it can't be said to be the case concerning every demographic. Paul says in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free, but he himself says specific things for/concerning each of those demographics. There is a good news that pertains specifically to Jews, and a general good news. There can be good news addressed to a person specifically, and we can understand that good news, learn from that good news, and appreciate it as ultimately addressed to someone else. I'm not saying that there is a different Good News outside of Christ death, burial, and resurrection. That applies to all, but in different ways. God has a word which he is going to fulfill specifically for Israel as he has promised. I believe the apostles to the Circumcision taught in light of this hope, but the Jews fell short by merit of God's hardening. Even in this though, Paul's Gospel (as he called it, we know as he did that it is the revelation he received solely from Christ) superexceeded into a glorious "much more" because in Paul we saw Christ glorified beyond his ascension, as we will be when he transforms us and snatches us as way at the resurrection. In Paul we see the end, the general overview as regards everyone and everything. I don't think James, Jude, Peter, or John (1,2, & 3 John + Revelation) gives us that. They're words concerned specific details, specific ages, regarding specific people. They didn't have much for the Gentiles at all. Like Jesus in his earthly ministry the Gentiles may be talked of often, but they are rarely talked to; they are the subject in someone else's mail, not the person the mail is addressed to. In Paul is the only time we ever see I any measure of reversal to that precedent. We should cherish and understand that our mail and their mail don't have to agree, in fact, it'd be weird if they did.
I actually believe that when James refers to the 12 tribes of Israel, he is referring to the church. That has to do with pretty much everything Paul taught about what it means to be a Jew and how that Paul considered the Jews in his contemporary earthly Jerusalem to be the seed of Hagar and therefore Gentiles. Jesus outright denied that flesh and genetics determine who he considers to be his people when he said "those who do the will of my Father are my mother and brothers." Those in fellowship with him are his people, Gentiles and a remnant of Jews in one church no dividing walls between them. That's a whole different discussion.
Concerning grace, works and salvation, I think it can be shown that Paul and James were preaching the same message about those things. Yes, I do agree that Paul gives much more information, being that he wrote most of the NT, but I don't take that to mean that the Jewish believers were given a different gospel of grace and salvation from the Gentile believers. I think James' use of pre-mosaic Law obedience in Rahab and Abraham is very revealing in that respect. James was doing that for a very specific reason, to show that just because works of the Law do not earn the gift of the Spirit, obedience is still key to the idea expressed in Matthew: he will be named Jesus because he shall save his people from their sin. Disobedience is a sin whether Jew or Gentile, so salvation is the same between them.
Anyway, I don't want to end up repeating myself. But I do believe that James is misunderstood in Christian theology. :HeartThrob:
Jordan said
Even in this though, Paul's Gospel (as he called it, we know as he did that it is the revelation he received solely from Christ) superexceeded into a glorious "much more" because in Paul we saw Christ glorified beyond his ascension,
:iagree: :HeartThrob:
Thank you Dajomaco 💞.
It could be so that James refers to "The Israel of God," or "True Jews," but even as Paul said those things, he also spoke of Jews after the flesh, and of the house of Jacob. There simply as to be a precedent for that assertion that we may be on firm footing.
Personally, I see a difference between "scattered abroad" vs gathered together under the banner of the the earthly Jerusalem, which Paul identifies rather provocatively as children of slavery and of Hagar, not of Isaac. The scattered tribes that James refers to are the ones that he says not only have faith, but have been born again by the will of God. I think all Gentiles and Jews who believe are identified by Paul as Jews according to the circumcision of the heart (by the will of God) and I think James is reflecting that in his language.
I thought I would provide a bit on on what I think about the statements made in Romans 4: "to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
I used to believe that meant that as long as I believe in Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do. Technically, I could watch my enemy drowning in a river, refuse to save him even if I could, and God still thinks I am righteous because "my faith is counted for righteousness" even as I "worketh not." Now, I believe I was wrong about how I viewed the scripture and I was taking it out of context with everything Paul wrote both before and after that sentence.
I actually begin with what John said about sin: sin is lawlessness. Breaking his commandments is sin.
1 John 3:23
And this is his command, to believe in Jesus and love one another as he commanded
Not believing in Jesus is a sin. It's lawlessness because it is against his command, and Jesus came to save us from sin. He came to save us from not believing in him and from not loving our neighbor. So, when someone DOES believe in Jesus, his faith is credited to him for righteousness because he has fulfilled the first command that John outlined. It's not a sin to believe in Jesus. It's righteousness to believe in him. But what about the second command? And love one another....
I understand Romans 4:5 by first looking at Romans 2.
Romans 2:26, 28
For if the uncircumcision (gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? For he is not a jew which is one outwardly. Neither is circumcision which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew which is inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart in the Spirit AND NOT THE LETTER
What? Gentiles can be Jews? How can that be unless the letter of the Law is set aside which says that you must be circumcised on the 8th day or be expelled from the people? So, Paul spends Romans 3 and 4 using the example of Abraham - out of their very own scriptures - to defend his teaching that man can be considered righteous by God without works of the Law. Take a look at the father of the Jews, have faith first, THEN circumcised physically. This follows the pattern of the New Covenant believer: have faith first, then receive the Spirit.
And even while not having the Law, the Gentiles can still fulfill the righteousness of the Law (which is love thy neighbor) without the letter. We go on to the next chapter:
Romans 3
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
"The law that requires faith." What is the law that requires faith? I believe it's God's own mouth. It was expressed 1 John 3:23. These are his commands: believe in Jesus and love thy neighbor. We can do that APART from the Law, because we are justified (righteous) by his grace which comes by way of faith. According to Paul, "grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness." (Titus 2:11-12). In other words, grace affects our works in a way that the letter of the Law could not, and thus we are made righteous without works of the Law.
So Paul is talking about faith insofar as it leads to grace and how grace creates righteousness. He is still defending his teaching that Gentiles are able to receive a "circumcision of the heart by the spirit" and thus not according to works of the letter of the Law.
Romans 4
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Is Paul suddenly not talking about works of the Law here when he says "the one who does not work?" In Romans 2 he told us about Gentiles receiving the Spirit and fulfilling the righteousness of the Law without being under the Law. He's showing us that Abraham had faith and that faith was credited to him for righteousness, thus refuting the idea that righteousness can only come from the letter of the Law. Abraham was righteous before that. Abraham fulfilled "the law that requires faith" and thus his faith was credited, not as sin, but as righteousness to him.
Romans 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
Paul rests his case to the Judaizers. Indeed, if the Gentiles fulfill the righteousness of the Law will not their UNCIRCUMCISION be COUNTED for circumcision? Yes, meaning they will be counted as lawful apart from the Law, because they both believe in Jesus AND love their neighbor. Paul says that if one believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth, he will be saved. That, I believe, is because of what he says in Romans 4: the promise comes by faith so that it may be by grace
The promise is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit chastens us, by grace, to abandon ungodliness in this present age. Thus, we are saved from the lawlessness that is not believing Jesus and not loving our neighbor.
Let's go back to
Romans 2:
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
So much for my previous assumption that I can say I am righteous without works, by believing in Jesus yet letting my enemy drown in the river. That would be the classic definition of "following evil."
Obviously, Romans 4:5 reconciles with that above scripture, doesn't it? I believe it does in the sense that while God will not punish someone for not being under the Law, or doing works of the Law, his commandments are: believe in Jesus and love thy neighbor. By believing in Jesus, that faith is credited to us for righteousness, but for those who have faith but waver, and pursue evil, there will be "trouble and distress." That's because faith is supposed to be completed by works, like James says, and I believe as Paul is saying. But, both Paul and James acknowledge that faith comes first.
The faithful are righteous before God, not the Judaizers.
Quote from: Seth on February 17, 2015, 11:12:00 PM
Personally, I see a difference between "scattered abroad" vs gathered together under the banner of the the earthly Jerusalem, which Paul identifies rather provocatively as children of slavery and of Hagar, not of Isaac. The scattered tribes that James refers to are the ones that he says not only have faith, but have been born again by the will of God. I think all Gentiles and Jews who believe are identified by Paul as Jews according to the circumcision of the heart (by the will of God) and I think James is reflecting that in his language.
I agree. I see, personally, the resolution of this question in Hebrews 12, the entire chapter, but especially verses 1,2 & 22-28
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Jesus is the author and finisher of all faith, the Alpha & Omega.... we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". In Revelations 10 we see the "one new man", clothed in the cloud, head in the heavens, bearing the eternal gospel.
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speak better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speak. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Mt Zion, in this metaphoric, or language of spiritual reality, is the place where God will remove all remaining veils in the ages to come,
Isaiah 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over
all nations.I think the writer of Hebrews is revealing the universal assembly, the "great congregation" (Psalms 40), the tabernacle of God from an eternal(time transcendent) point of view(It is finished).
Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
To me this speaks of the vanquishing of all the adversaries and the gathering together of all things into the ALL IN ALL, which is proceeding age by age, each in their own order.
This order can be a bit confusing since, as Paul said it, "the Jew first and then the Gentile" and "the natural branches were cut-off so that the wild branches could be grafted in", but after that operation which occurs "in Christ" there is only one- "one body, one Lord, one faith, etc(eph 4)
This grafting creates the "one new man" in Christ, the "two made one", the "wall of partition taken down" in the spirit as regards this age and the next, "having received a kingdom" all who are of "those who were first to believe in Christ(Eph 1:12)
But when Paul speaks of natural Jews and Gentiles, there is only really His attitude and the language of context available to make the distinction- but it is clear he speaks of earthly Zion and Jerusalem, not the heavenly one that is "coming down out of heaven" to be a refuge and a well of life for
all men, for "in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, slave or freeman, Greek or Scythian" yet He speaks of Jews and Gentiles and Greeks- "Greeks seek knowledge and Jews seek a sign". I think the seed of it all begins with Abel(in time, after the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world), whereas Cain would be a type for the subjection("I will make all your enemies a footstool for your feet")- wheat and tares separated at the harvest(the end of the age).
Abel, Noah, Abraham(patriarchs/Israel), David, Christ, the ecclesia(those who are His at His coming, gathered in this age through the gospel- Jew or Gentile) -following the root, the trunk, the branches of the olive tree, and the house of prayer for all peoples that will go in and out of it in the ages to come, "Come let us go to the mountain of the house of the Lord to behold the glory of the Lord and learn His ways".
Personally I think the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem includes the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" from Abel, to Zechariah, to John the Baptist and all who have ever or will ever overcome in faithfulness to God as first resurrection saints because of their overcoming mortal obedience. The general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven are all the rest of those whose names are written in the lamb's book of life. Along with them are all the angels who serve God.
One of the reasons that the author speaks to these Hebrews with so many metaphors out of Judaism is to reveal and reaffirm for them the universality of the new tabernacle and the new priesthood, which automatically transfers all the revelation to any who are "grafted in", who are "living stones" fitly joined to the Chief Cornerstone, who are members of the ecclesia gathered as "the fulness of Him who fills all in all"- which includes every member over which He is head over all things(Eph 1) in the "one body"(eph 4)
:dsunny: :thumbsup:
Our WORK
Our neighbors ,the ones we are to love .
These neighbors have already been prepared to receive our love.
We are surrounded by neighbors ready to receive our love.
For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Beautimous! No need to stray outside those lines, no matter what else may cause doubt or question, within that circle one can find the heart of God.
Hello All,
I've been following this thread. A lot of interesting views, I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I felt compelled to chime in, not just to give an opinion, but when I write, it helps me to gel my own thoughts. This subject has always been a hard one for me to reconcile.
When I hear "faith without works" my mind automatically defines works as 'efforts', and I go into defense mode, not because I'm afraid of work, but because I know my own 'efforts' are not worthy of the faith. If in my own effort I do a good deed, the flesh gets the glory, and the deed is it's own reward. If I look back at a situation I might be involved in that ended as a 'good work', I can say "that was a good work that God did, and he used me to carry it out." And it builds my faith to see Him work through me. If I could re-write James 2:18 it would say: 'Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my His works.' I think we all know good works from evil works and that we should do good works, but there something special about his good works done through us.
Or we could ask Him - oh yeah somebody did - (John 6:28,29 NIV) 'Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires? "Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."'
And by the way I do believe that there are some writings specifically for the Jews, and Paul's writings carry more weight for me as a non-Jew. For me, this is part of the "rightly dividing". When the author of James addresses the twelve tribes, I think he is addressing the Jews, specifically,at that point in time. When Jesus said 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' (Matt. 15:24 YLT) it is telling me that there were things he had specifically to relate to those Jews at that time. Some things were just for the Jews (i.e, 'And the chief priests and the Pharisees having heard his similes, knew that of them he speaketh,' (Matt. 21:45 YLT)- doesn't apply to me.) The New Covenant must have been a very difficult change for the Jews and I'm sure they needed special attention.
This is my thought on this date, and can, and probably will change, after all, in the words of Red Green in The Man's Prayer:
"I'M A MAN, AND I CAN CHANGE, IF I HAVE TO, I GUESS"
God Bless all of you!
Pat
Sorry EW, you had a good conclusion to this whole thread, but since I already wrote this I thought I'd post it anyway. Pat
One thing about claiming authorship of works that I recall, going along with what you said about James' phrasing (his works vs my works)
1Cor 15
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
I think given what James said about being birthed by the inward word by the will of God, I think James was aware of the presence of God in his works. I also think about what Paul said about faith working in love.
1 Cor 13
2and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
I think right there Paul draws a clear enough distinction between faith and charity seeing that a man who has strong faith but no love "is nothing." I don't see much of a substantial difference between that and "faith without works is dead."
One of the reasons the idea of works is scary is because it's often connected with salvation from hell. But since Paul, in Titus 3, is speaking about salvation from disobedience itself (by the Spirit not works of the Law), the idea of works and salvation is just common sense to me, in that light, and thus a natural component.
To be saved from disobedience means to be made obedient ( i.e. both faith and works compliant). I think that is James' point and Paul's point in many of his scriptures. And in that context, James' statements seem common sense to me for either Jewish or Gentile believers.
I think James was warning against a deception that is common in Christendum. Just because we are focused on theological points doesnt mean James was. I dont think he was saying anything at all about how you "get saved".
"Woe unto you rich, the blood of the laborers whose wages you stole are crying out against you from the ground and will eat your flesh like a fire on the day." "Cleanse your hearts you adulterers and adulterers, cleanse your hands you sinners.".....
Jesus warned of the same deception, "Lord, Lord, didnt we do mighty works in your name?.....depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels, for I was thirsty and you gave me no drink."
"Because you are lukewarm and neither cold or hot, I will spit you out of my mouth." Is that a theological statement?, Why would anyone want to find out lol. Better to heat up in the pursuit of the Lord :o)
Faith without works is dead, simple observation, like, you will know them by their fruits. I don't think he was making a theological point at all. I think he was doing the work of a shepherd whose sheep were wandering too close to the woods, so he made some noise to warn them, "There's danger in them woods! :)
I agree, while I do think James was talking about salvation, I think he was thinking about it practically, as you said, warning them not to return to the elements of the world that previously ensnared them. :thumbsup:
For me, faith and love are not the same, as Paul demonstrates. Faith leads to love, but Love is the most important thing, according to him. If we are talking about salvation from sin, I don't see how that can be accomplished without love, since absence of love is the Biblical definition of sin. In that respect, I don't think of salvation as necessarily a theological concept, but a practical one. :dontknow:
We know this discussion has been going on a few thousand years, right? :) More "recently", think Luther vs. the Roman church :o
Quote from: eaglesway on February 19, 2015, 05:51:05 AM
I think James was warning against a deception that is common in Christendum. I dont think he was saying anything at all about how you "get saved".
Faith without works is dead, simple observation, like, you will know them by their fruits.
Yes!
I think that makes a lot of sense, and helps reconcile some things, since we're saved not by works but by grace through faith and that not of ourselves. I was playing around with that idea some time back, i.e., James says 'faith' not '
salvation' (belief and confession on Jesus as Savior). So I may be a believer, having spiritually passed from death unto life only through His free gift (Q - "when is a free gift no longer free?" A - "when I have to work for it" :) But if I'm not walking in surrender and obedience to Him and Him working through me works of love (living worthy of the high calling) then what
good is it going to do you? We are to be salt and light. If I don't have good fruit, if I don't love my neighbor etc., then it's "dead" to you and those around me. :2c: That make any sense to anyone besides me?
---
(in researching this a little further, i see that
another variation of James and Paul is that James was talking about a "head knowledge" (agreeing who Jesus is as the devils do, but yet
not really having been drawn by the Spirit and believing on Jesus as Savior through His work on the cross [a surface or "false" faith, i.e., an
observation or acquiesence]);
while Paul was talking about the true free gift of saving faith, trust in the Lord Jesus as Savior, totally and wholly leaning on Him rather than trusting in ourselves, our intellect, or any works we might do - the kind of faith that truly saves, cleanses, restores, renews, passes us from death to life and makes a real difference in us and affects those around us. Further, that James and Paul were actually standing back-to-back
defending the faith, but
against 2 different types of error. One [James] against shallow, simply intellectual faith (observing that something's true, but without the life-changing spirit-renewing trust in it), the other [Paul] defending against believing we can earn our salvation by our own works or effort rather than trusting Christ and His shed blood on the cross.)
I personally lean toward the
top portion of this post, but somewhere within various parts of the above verbiage, maybe a mixture, I personally believe lies some things to earnestly consider. For me, with the bottom line being, we're saved by grace through faith not of ourselves, not by works lest any man should boast. And that
when someone is truly drawn by the Spirit and changed from the inside out, and are in surrender and closeness to Him, it's going to be a free gift of salvation for sure, but one that produces results - only as a result of and through the power of the Holy Spirit working within the saved believer.
As Paul said, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but "faith working through love". I think when we use terms like faith, grace, hope, wisdom,etc we are looking at the "white light" through the prism and viewing the different colors of which it is made. For me the light is love, and grace, faith etc are all aspects of how God, who is love, manifests within His creation.
The only reason I disagree somewhat about whether James was talking about salvation is this. These people were all already saved. This was not an evangelistic epistle to unbelievers, it was a letter of reproof to a wayward church in need of correction- this is apparent(to me anyway :o) throughout the epistle. I liken it to Jesus words to Laodicea or Thyatira in Revelations.
As James(our James :o) said, and I agree, Paul was dealing with another problem in much of his writing, and of course he wrote so much more. Personally I have no tolerance (spiritually or intellectually) for anyone who tries to put Paul and James at odds, as if Paul taught grace and James taught works lol- I just dont get it.
Also notice Paul's context, when he spoke in Ephesians 2
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Amazing how people squeeze that little saying right out of what Paul was teaching.
In this passage of scripture Paul is not dealing with any problem. The Ephesians did not have any problem, at least at that time. They were an orderly, fruitful;, overcoming comgregation, as were the Colossians and the Phillipians. Paul had not a word of reproof for of them, unlike the Galatians and the Corinthians, for whom Paul delivered much reproof and rebuke along with his instruction. In Ephesians 2 Paul is still continuing his explanation of "the mystery" of the anakepholaiomai(gathering all things into one). He is only a few sentences removed from chapter one, and of course there were no chapters, this is just a continuous letter in which he is STILL SPEAKING OF THE AGES TO COME! :banana:
In the immediatley preceeding verse to this other verse that everyone is building their whole house on Paul is still talking about universal reconciliation. He is explaining, in the context, just like he does in Colossians , that we were once enemies too, and don't forget you were just as helpless as those unto whom we have been sent, and don't forget WHY you were saved and WHY you are his workmanship- TO DO GOOD WORKS LOL.
See I think James and Paul were saying EXACTLY THE SAME THING, but Paul was speaking to obedient believers bearing 100 fold fruit and James was talking to believers on the precipice(and over it) holding their faith IN VANITY. He was calling them back to being God's workmanship in Christ, CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS.
So we are not saved BY GOOD WORKS, but we are saved FOR GOOD WORKS LOL. If there are no works accompanying our faith, it is IN VAIN, FUTILE, etc- it doesnt mean we weren't saved, it means the coals have grown cold, we have become lukewarm, we are in danger of what Jesus taught in John 15 about those who do not abide in the vine and dry up and are cut-off and cast into the fire.
Paul was speaking of salvation, in Eph 2:8, in the PAST TENSE, reminding the saints that they came in from the same darkness IN THE BEGINNING and are no better than anyone else so keep the fire burning and be what they were re-created in Christ to be.... WORKERS :o)
When James speaks he is, imo, saying the same thing that Paul said to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 3 about the wood hay and stubble, and the fire that will consume the reward of those who have mixed motives and are building garbage on top of the Chief cornerstone.
I think it is reasonable to say that we are not saved as a result of good works, but we are saved for the purpose of good works, so, as James and Jesus and Paul all taught, our works testify to our salvation as a new creation - so if there are no such works, or there are evil works in the place of them, such as putting wealthy men and women in the front of the church on the platform and putting poor people on the metaphorical backrow- then there is a problem that needs to be REBUKED, which is why I say James was not talking about how you get saved at all, he was rebuking believers who were in an advanced and dangerous stage of hypocrisy.
Man I do run on sometimes LOLOL
:thumbsup:
Hi John,
Great post. Yes, saved FOR good works. :thumbsup:
See, I believe in a two part salvation process, an inward salvation, and an outward salvation. I think James covers both in the book of James. In the first chapter he talks about being born again (by our own works?) by the will of God. I think that's the inward salvation that Paul speaks about in Ephesians when he says "you have been joined together with Christ (by grace ye have been saved.") And in Titus 3, when he says "God saved you not because of your works but by the rebirth and regeneration of the Holy Spirit."
Being joined together with Christ is a faith alone proposition. "Believe Jesus for the remission of sins past and receive the spirit. Save yourselves from this wicked generation." (paraphrased from Peter in Acts 2). And yet, Paul also said, "now that we have received the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." So, while in James 1 it's talking about the inward salvation, in James 2, I think he is talking about the outward salvation when he says "what good is it brothers if a man has faith but no works, can that faith save him?"
I think James is talking about how the inner salvation ought to translate into the outer world (i.e. let's not just talk about love, let's show it with our actions.) Have you ever heard someone's testimony and they say something like "God delivered me from the life I was living in drugs and sin." Or, "I was once on the street pimping and God came and forgave my sin and delivered me."
How did God deliver us? He inspired us to turn away from those former things, which is a work in itself. They are proving James right by saying those things in that their faith translated into ACTION and their actions (which they credit to God) delivered them from their former lives. Everyone's testimony about deliverance implies a faith+works salvation for the outer man, the outward manifestation of the inward salvation.
I believe works can save in the sense of "opportunity cost." Say you have two choices tonight, work overtime or play with your kids. If you choose one, you cannot choose the other simultaneously. We can choose works like walking away from pornography, and that work saves us from being slave to it. The work is inspired and empowered by God, but it nevertheless saves one from being undelivered.
I think that is why James uses the example of Rahab, the Gentile woman. If the Jewish spies (who I believe represent the remnant elect of Jews like Paul, Peter, John spreading the Gospel of salvation from sin) had come to Rahab's door and she said "Yes, I believe in your God. BYE!" Then SLAMMED the door in their faces....would she have been saved from the fall of Jericho? I think not. She was saved because she not only believed God but she gave the spies quarter, and then she placed the red cord outside her window. She believed and obeyed, and thus she was saved.
We can be saved from a bad relationship with God.
Saved from the relationship that Adam had a relationship of separation.
We can have a clear conscience before God the day or moment we believe in Christ.
To keep a clear conscience before God we have a combination of faith and works.
The more faith we have the more works there will be.
But it is Faith that gets us unstuck and back on the road.(the way)
We are saved to have a clear conscience .
With a clear conscience we are able to love freely ,to call God father and to rest in him.
And I have a hope in God, which these men themselves also accept, that there is going to be a resurrection,[a] both of the righteous and the unrighteous. 16 I always do my best to have a clear conscience toward God and men. 17 After many years, I came to bring charitable gifts and offerings to my nation,
For this is our confidence: The testimony of our conscience is that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you, with God-given sincerity and purity, not by fleshly wisdom but by God's grace. 13 Now we are writing nothing to you other than what you can read and also understand. I hope you will understand completely—
Now the goal of our instruction is love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith. 6 Some have deviated from these and turned aside to fruitless discussion. [/size]
:iagree:
Me too! :o)
"love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith"
If the Apostles had a softball team, they'd have put that on their t-shirts.
Today, at first base we have Pure Heart, with Good Conscience at second base and Sincere Faith at third. Steadfast Love is at short stop, and in the outfield, we have Sure Hope, Renewed Mind and Hidden Wisdom. Winding up with the pitch is Good News and behind the plate, Hearing Ear at catcher. Here at Zion Hill Stadium we are playing to a full house, a great cloud of witnesses cheers as Endless Grace steps up to the plate.
Here's the wind up, there's the pitch.......
"BOOM"
LOOK AT THAT FOLKS, ANOTHER HOME RUN BY ENDLESS GRACE!!!!
:laughing7:
I could hope to be a bat boy on such a team.
Would be an honor, right? :0)
Lol, I just realized nobody would want to be first to bat! "No, you go first, brother." "No, you first, I insist."
The Centurian pitcher would say, "well one of you better go first!"
And Both teams would be play their hardest, yet the runs would be a source of rejoicing no matter which side had the highest score :o)