I had a little debate with an ET believer

[Eduard]

I used the Bible to support UR, he countered with:  "John 3:18 "those who do NOT BELIEVE are CONDEMNED already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Then verse 3:36 reads, "whoever disobeys the Son will NOT see LIFE, but must endure God's wrath."

He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did?  :dontknow:

[Tom]

I think your adversary is ignoring the previous verse.

"For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him." (John 3:17)

And his problem with John 3:36 is inaccurate translation because it refers to "life eonian." Unbelievers will not have "life eonian," but they will be saved at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and God will be all in all.

"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10). "Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20). "Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20 thru 28).

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[rosered]

I used the Bible to support UR, he countered with:  "John 3:18 "those who do NOT BELIEVE are CONDEMNED already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Then verse 3:36 reads, "whoever disobeys the Son will NOT see LIFE, but must endure God's wrath."

He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did?  :dontknow:

Yes this was  contradictory   ed ,

  Just because you believe  in the Son of God     does not mean      your saved in the sense of this,  the devils do know  Jesus Christ is the Son of God and do tremble  !

  the whole world is under the sway       of Babylon      and its deception
    its so persuasive   that even John was  wondering after her glory  in the earth   and the Angel/ messenger stopped Him     

and we have this  proof
 
1 John 5 ...18We know that no one who is born of God sins;

but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.


20And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life....


     I personally believe Jesus Christ come in the flesh  [A body prepared for him] as a human to serve    us all     the first time    and died on the cross   to end death  so the believers   that obey  His Word  [testing  cycle of  judgments    Holy Spirit and fire  ]  KEEP  HIS LAW       and comes a second time   in our flesh as Spirit and truth and deposits  the seed    of Life     in us      to grow in truth and grace        to destroy the works of Babylon       I will call this  spiritual pride   that all become captive to in the world     so the truth really does set us free
because greater is He whom is in you than in the world  , he overcome all things  in the world   by the Spirit and truth of God   for us to Follow  after  Him
and leave this world behind 

 

[Eduard]

He also said that there are no verses that state the unbelievers will have eternal life. The problem here is, like Tom also said, that not everyone understands what the concept of eonian life really means.

It must be hard for a believer like him to think of ET as a fact for his whole life and then someone else comes and teaches the opposite, I realise that.  :2c:

[Tom]

I think most of us here have experienced that. I went through most of my life not even knowing about universal reconciliation. Then, when I became aware of it, I didn't want to believe it because I thought it was a lie due to the powerful influence of orthodoxy on all believers who have not yet come to understand the truth of scripture. I would say to all who do not yet believe it, do what I did. Try to get as much information about it as possible, and make sure it all conforms to an accurate translation of scripture. It is really important to read scripture correctly translated or you won't see the truth.

[rosered]

I think most of us here have experienced that. I went through most of my life not even knowing about universal reconciliation. Then, when I became aware of it, I didn't want to believe it because I thought it was a lie due to the powerful influence of orthodoxy on all believers who have not yet come to understand the truth of scripture. I would say to all who do not yet believe it, do what I did. Try to get as much information about it as possible, and make sure it all conforms to an accurate translation of scripture. It is really important to read scripture correctly translated or you won't see the truth.

  Exactly Tom !!    we have all tried and failed to   conform ourselves        into     salvation , no different than the Jews did by works and they are dead works 
  the only difference is we know better now   and they do not
  they are held in   spiritual Babylon  till they are set free   

for me death was  abolished     when Jesus hung  on the cross and come back to Life  without end       and it will be Him whom raises the dead  as the Father seeks those     now   , in the end  all will    have salvation     
  and those whom never know     here and now   in my opinion have the covering   of Jesus Christ dying for all

  we are only accountable for what we know    and what we know Comes from God    , its His   and He is fair
  the only thing that separates    a believer from an  unbeliever is the WORKS OF GOD   though Jesus Christ      , it is     
  nothing of us , and when you think about it   , its pretty self righteous    and prideful to think we are any better off than they are

  and  they are still held captive  ,   of  Babylon    and those dead works    are still in those whom think they are       any better off
  this is just me   believing this   , but faith comes by hearing      what the Spirit is saying  they are Life for the dead    , if they do not hear its because   the  laborers  of love   are  few  , its God whom will give the increase        as more destruction comes   upon the earth   
Everyone calls out to God when troubles come     suddenly upon them   and the ones whom do not suffer   in pain

  His Kingdom is being built   

  When Jesus told    of keeping the eye single       it was for our benefit     whom believe
  lest   the Light you have be full of darkness     and how great is that darkness      , its the same     curse of the  beastly carnal  man , this nature      and where the woman sits       warnings of them     queen of heaven       its  always been here    in this world !      from the beginning  to the end   

         Every Word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God will be  fulfilled in Christ .
   
...9Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

10Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, 11and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds....

Exodus 10:21
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that darkness spreads over Egypt--darkness that can be felt."

Exodus 10:22
So Moses stretched out his hand toward the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three days.

Isaiah 8:22
Then they will look toward the earth and see only distress and darkness and fearful gloom, and they will be thrust into utter darkness.


LUKE  8  17"For nothing is hidden that will not become evident,

nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.

18"So take care how you listen; for whoever has,

to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him."

The   healing of Jesus Christ   has always been   eyes to see and  ears to hear and heart to understand Him   [the SPIRIT OF LIFE  is saying and doing and working   in us ]    ROMANS 8

   1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh,

God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
         
Everyone,   every  last one will know  GOD   though Jesus Christ     .

[UniversalSceptic]

He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did? 

Of course that's what he did, they ALWAYS do that. It's an attempt to guilt, discredit, and shame you all in one move.

[CHB]

the only thing that separates    a believer from an  unbeliever is the WORKS OF GOD   though Jesus Christ      , it is     
  nothing of us , and when you think about it   , its pretty self righteous    and prideful to think we are any better off than they are

Amen to that! I think sometimes we forget it is only by the grace of God that we understand  what we understand. We could be and have been in the same position as the rest of the world, not knowing about the salvation of all.

CHB

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did? 

Of course that's what he did, they ALWAYS do that. It's an attempt to guilt, discredit, and shame you all in one move.

Indeed, that is why it is pointless to debate those who are unwilling to listen. I feel it is a better idea to pray for Lord Jesus to open their heart and mind and guide them to the truth. Of course, that will happen in due time

[WhiteWings]

I used the Bible to support UR, he countered with:  "John 3:18 "those who do NOT BELIEVE are CONDEMNED already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Correct.

Then verse 3:36 reads, "whoever disobeys the Son will NOT see LIFE, but must endure God's wrath."

Also correct. But it's clear it's limited in duration if you understand what 'life' actually means in context. It's about participation in His 1000 year Kingdom. Even an ET should know that because even in their theology everyone gets resurrected to life and stay alive forever. Some in heaven and most in hell. But all see life.

He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did?  :dontknow:

He doesn't just pick verses but leaves out problematic words.



10 for to this we also labor and are reproached, because we hope on the living Elohim, who is Savior of all men, especially of believers.

[eaglesway]

A slight change in perspective often changes how we hear.

Jesus is the savior of all who believe.

Eventually all will believe.

At present all do not believe, all are not yet reconciled, all are not yet saved, healed, delivered.

Every knee sahll bow and every tongue confess, wether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father(Phil.2:9-11)

All things will be reconciled to God through the blood of the cross of Christ, whether things on eaarth or in heaven(Col. 1:16-21)

All things will be gathered into one in Christ, things in heaven and earth (Eph 1:9-11)

As in Adam ALL die so also in Christ will ALL be made alive.......Every enemy will be subjected and death will be anulled and God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:23-28)

God has shut up all in disobedience that He will hav mercy on ALL........For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS.(Romans 11:32-36)


When I read that Jesus is the savior of all who believe without the context of these other verses(and more) I have picked a verse out of whole cloth(context) and given it my own meaning.

When I read all those other verses as well I see that Jesus is the savior of the whole world (in the fulness of times Eph 1) especially believers(now)

[Eduard]

Now another has joined the debate, he says that God does offer salvation to all, but many choose to reject it and thus are damned.

[WhiteWings]

Did the shepherd in the parable of the Good Shepherd ask the lost sheep permission to bring it back home to the fold?


John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
==> God gives full control to Jesus
John 17:2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Matthew 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
==> The task of Jesus is to give eternal life to all things (=mankind)
John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
==> And Jesus accomplishes His task

[Eduard]

 :thumbsup:

I'll bring these points to the discussion, thank you WW!

[Tom]

Now another has joined the debate, he says that God does offer salvation to all, but many choose to reject it and thus are damned.

Salvation is not an offer to be received or rejected by so called free will.

Some have been chosen to be saved for eonian life in Christ, but those who are not will be saved at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.

"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).

"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20 thru 28).

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Eduard]

Now they are saying that those verses are only talking about those that will be in the first resurrection.  :sigh:

[Tom]

Now they are saying that those verses are only talking about those that will be in the first resurrection.  :sigh:

They're wrong because the "all" that are dying are the same "all" that will be vivified and the same "all" that God will be all in.

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:22)

"The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:26)

"that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28)

[Seth]

A slight change in perspective often changes how we hear.

Jesus is the savior of all who believe.

Eventually all will believe.

At present all do not believe, all are not yet reconciled, all are not yet saved, healed, delivered.

Every knee sahll bow and every tongue confess, wether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father(Phil.2:9-11)

All things will be reconciled to God through the blood of the cross of Christ, whether things on eaarth or in heaven(Col. 1:16-21)

All things will be gathered into one in Christ, things in heaven and earth (Eph 1:9-11)

As in Adam ALL die so also in Christ will ALL be made alive.......Every enemy will be subjected and death will be anulled and God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:23-28)

God has shut up all in disobedience that He will hav mercy on ALL........For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS.(Romans 11:32-36)


When I read that Jesus is the savior of all who believe without the context of these other verses(and more) I have picked a verse out of whole cloth(context) and given it my own meaning.

When I read all those other verses as well I see that Jesus is the savior of the whole world (in the fulness of times Eph 1) especially believers(now)

:dsunny:

Then verse 3:36 reads, "whoever disobeys the Son will NOT see LIFE, but must endure God's wrath."

God's wrath:

Romans 1
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Life saves us from wrath:

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

And all will be made alive:

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[WhiteWings]

Now they are saying that those verses are only talking about those that will be in the first resurrection.  :sigh:

First of all,  resurrections are harvests.  Harvests aren't thrown away.

Secondly I again point to the Good Shepherd parable.
If the Shepherd saves all sheep before the second resurrection there can't be a 2nd resurrection because  there is nothing resurrect.
If people get resurrected in the second resurrection they obviously weren't saved before the fist resurrection.  If they are cast in hell they obviously aren't saved.
How can that be if the Good Shepherd saves every sheep?

Sin won't stop Jesus.  The sin of the sheep was running away from the flock. The Shepherd's response to that is find the sheep and do whatever a shepherd does to get sheep back in the flock/fold. 

[Seth]

Yes. That's why "each to their own order"

[WhiteWings]

Eduard read this verse a few times.  I think it's very powerful and discribes Father's mind/will very well

2 Sam 14:14 We each must die and disappear like water poured out on the ground. But God doesn't take our lives. Instead, he figures out ways of bringing us back when we run away.

Do you think theFather is smart enough to figure it out?
BTW this sorta stuff very often is about people who don't want to be saved/accept the gift of life. It's not just about Christians who can't stp sinning but also those without religion or pagans.

[WhiteWings]

Quoting and old post of mine regarding the narrow road.  I think it fits well in this discussion too....
About the narrow road is said that few shall find it. "find" is an activity of the believer.
Does that mean salvation is in our own hands? That one sheep couldn't find the flock either. Perhaps didn't even tried to. But that's not important because the parable tells us the shepherd decides he is going to find that sheep.
--> Shepherd decides how many are lost. Not the sheep.
--> The parable also tells us any shepherd will go searching. No questions asked.

The woman in the parable of the lost coin is about a woman searching for a totally passive coin. The coin didn't even make itself lost. Neither did it wanted to be lost or found. When the woman found the coin she was very happy.
--> The coin had zero input on its fate.

The prodigal son sort of rejected his father. He chooses to be cut off. The way he spends his money shows me he clearly was on the wide road. And that road completely destroyed him financially. Did his father reject him after this destruction/death?
No, he was extra happy when his son returned.
--> The last chance is never revoked.


Shepard=owner of sheep. Woman=owner of coins. Father=owner of son.
They all were sad when their "thing" was lost. They all celebrated when it was found again.
So no matter how many things Father lost on the wide road; He'll eventually finds them again.

So I think many things can be explained in different ways. And as isolated 'facts' the various explanations can be acceptable. But when when all those facts are grouped together only one conclusion can be drawn....

[Seth]

I agree

[dajomaco]

I used the Bible to support UR, he countered with:  "John 3:18 "those who do NOT BELIEVE are CONDEMNED already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Then verse 3:36 reads, "whoever disobeys the Son will NOT see LIFE, but must endure God's wrath."

He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did?  :dontknow:

Yes you have to be already condemned to be already Saved.
You have to be condemned first then saved.

I am already condemned and I am already saved.

If I do not believe I am saved.
I am still already condemned.

[Seth]

John 3
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

From what I see in the whole body of Gospel teaching is that those who have come out of the judgement are those who have ceased doing evil, because belief leads to receiving the Holy Spirit, so that our deeds "may be manifested as having been wrought in God."