I used the Bible to support UR, he countered with: "John 3:18 "those who do NOT BELIEVE are CONDEMNED already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Then verse 3:36 reads, "whoever disobeys the Son will NOT see LIFE, but must endure God's wrath."
He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did? :dontknow:
I think your adversary is ignoring the previous verse.
"For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him." (John 3:17)
And his problem with John 3:36 is inaccurate translation because it refers to "life eonian." Unbelievers will not have "life eonian," but they will be saved at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and God will be all in all.
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10). "Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20). "Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20 thru 28).
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Eduard on November 21, 2014, 04:14:04 PM
I used the Bible to support UR, he countered with: "John 3:18 "those who do NOT BELIEVE are CONDEMNED already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Then verse 3:36 reads, "whoever disobeys the Son will NOT see LIFE, but must endure God's wrath."
He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did? :dontknow:
Yes this was contradictory ed ,
Just because you believe in the Son of God does not mean your saved in the sense of this, the devils do know Jesus Christ is the Son of God and do tremble !
the whole world is under the sway of Babylon and its deception
its so persuasive that even John was wondering after her glory in the earth and the Angel/ messenger stopped Him
and we have this proof
1 John 5 ...18We know that no one who is born of God sins;
but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19We know that we are of God, an
d that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
20And we know that the
Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life....
I personally believe Jesus Christ come in the flesh [A body prepared for him] as a human to serve us all the first time and died on the cross to end death so the believers that obey His Word [testing cycle of judgments Holy Spirit and fire ] KEEP HIS LAW and comes a second time in our flesh as Spirit and truth and deposits the seed of Life in us to grow in truth and grace to destroy the works of Babylon I will call this spiritual pride that all become captive to in the world so the truth really does set us free
because
greater is He whom is in you than in the world , he overcome all things in the world by the Spirit and truth of God for us to Follow after Him
and leave this world behind
He also said that there are no verses that state the unbelievers will have eternal life. The problem here is, like Tom also said, that not everyone understands what the concept of eonian life really means.
It must be hard for a believer like him to think of ET as a fact for his whole life and then someone else comes and teaches the opposite, I realise that. :2c:
I think most of us here have experienced that. I went through most of my life not even knowing about universal reconciliation. Then, when I became aware of it, I didn't want to believe it because I thought it was a lie due to the powerful influence of orthodoxy on all believers who have not yet come to understand the truth of scripture. I would say to all who do not yet believe it, do what I did. Try to get as much information about it as possible, and make sure it all conforms to an accurate translation of scripture. It is really important to read scripture correctly translated or you won't see the truth.
Quote from: Tom on November 21, 2014, 07:42:55 PM
I think most of us here have experienced that. I went through most of my life not even knowing about universal reconciliation. Then, when I became aware of it, I didn't want to believe it because I thought it was a lie due to the powerful influence of orthodoxy on all believers who have not yet come to understand the truth of scripture. I would say to all who do not yet believe it, do what I did. Try to get as much information about it as possible, and make sure it all conforms to an accurate translation of scripture. It is really important to read scripture correctly translated or you won't see the truth.
Exactly Tom !! we have all tried and failed to conform ourselves into salvation , no different than the Jews did by works and they are dead works
the only difference is we know better now and they do not
they are held in spiritual Babylon till they are set free
for me death was abolished when Jesus hung on the cross and come back to Life without end and it will be Him whom raises the dead as the Father seeks those now , in the end all will have salvation
and those whom never know here and now in my opinion have the covering of Jesus Christ dying for all
we are only accountable for what we know and what we know Comes from God , its His and He is fair
the only thing that separates a believer from an unbeliever is the WORKS OF GOD though Jesus Christ , it is
nothing of us , and when you think about it , its pretty self righteous and prideful to think we are any better off than they are
and they are still held captive , of Babylon and those dead works are still in those whom think they are any better off
this is just me believing this , but faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying they are Life for the dead , if they do not hear its because the laborers of love are few , its God whom will give the increase as more destruction comes upon the earth
Everyone calls out to God when troubles come suddenly upon them and the ones whom do not suffer in pain
His Kingdom is being built
When Jesus told of keeping the eye single it was for our benefit whom believe
lest the Light you have be full of darkness a
nd how great is that darkness , its the same curse of the beastly carnal man , this nature and where the woman sits warnings of them queen of heaven its always been here in this world ! from the beginning to the end
Every Word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God will be fulfilled in Christ .
...9Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
10
Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, 11and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds....Exodus 10:21
Then the LORD said to Moses, "
Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that darkness spreads over Egypt--darkness that can be felt."
Exodus 10:22
So Moses stretched out his hand toward the sky,
and total darkness covered all Egypt for three days.Isaiah 8:22
Then they will look toward the earth and see only distress and darkness and fearful gloom, and they will be thrust into utter darkness. LUKE 8 17"For nothing is hidden that will not become evident,
nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light. 18"
So take care how you listen; for whoever has,
to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him."The healing of Jesus Christ has always been eyes to see and ears to hear and heart to understand Him [the SPIRIT OF LIFE is saying and doing and working in us ] ROMANS 8
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do,
weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin,
He condemned sin in the flesh, Everyone, every last one will know GOD though Jesus Christ .
He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did?
Of course that's what he did, they ALWAYS do that. It's an attempt to guilt, discredit, and shame you all in one move.
Quote from: roseread
the only thing that separates a believer from an unbeliever is the WORKS OF GOD though Jesus Christ , it is
nothing of us , and when you think about it , its pretty self righteous and prideful to think we are any better off than they are
Amen to that! I think sometimes we forget it is only by the grace of God that we understand what we understand. We could be and have been in the same position as the rest of the world, not knowing about the salvation of all.
CHB
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on November 21, 2014, 09:32:49 PM
He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did?
Of course that's what he did, they ALWAYS do that. It's an attempt to guilt, discredit, and shame you all in one move.
Indeed, that is why it is pointless to debate those who are unwilling to listen. I feel it is a better idea to pray for Lord Jesus to open their heart and mind and guide them to the truth. Of course, that will happen in due time
Quote from: Eduard on November 21, 2014, 04:14:04 PM
I used the Bible to support UR, he countered with: "John 3:18 "those who do NOT BELIEVE are CONDEMNED already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
Correct.
QuoteThen verse 3:36 reads, "whoever disobeys the Son will NOT see LIFE, but must endure God's wrath."
Also correct. But it's clear it's limited in duration if you understand what 'life' actually means in context. It's about participation in His 1000 year Kingdom. Even an ET should know that because even in their theology everyone gets resurrected to life and stay alive forever. Some in heaven and most in hell. But all see life.
QuoteHe also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did? :dontknow:
He doesn't just pick verses but leaves out problematic words.
10 for to this we also labor and are reproached, because we hope on the living Elohim, who is Savior of all men, especially of believers.
A slight change in perspective often changes how we hear.
Jesus is the savior of all who believe.
Eventually all will believe.
At present all do not believe, all are not yet reconciled, all are not yet saved, healed, delivered.
Every knee sahll bow and every tongue confess, wether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father(Phil.2:9-11)
All things will be reconciled to God through the blood of the cross of Christ, whether things on eaarth or in heaven(Col. 1:16-21)
All things will be gathered into one in Christ, things in heaven and earth (Eph 1:9-11)
As in Adam ALL die so also in Christ will ALL be made alive.......Every enemy will be subjected and death will be anulled and God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:23-28)
God has shut up all in disobedience that He will hav mercy on ALL........For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS.(Romans 11:32-36)
When I read that Jesus is the savior of all who believe without the context of these other verses(and more) I have picked a verse out of whole cloth(context) and given it my own meaning.
When I read all those other verses as well I see that Jesus is the savior of the whole world (in the fulness of times Eph 1) especially believers(now)
Now another has joined the debate, he says that God does offer salvation to all, but many choose to reject it and thus are damned.
Did the shepherd in the parable of the Good Shepherd ask the lost sheep permission to bring it back home to the fold?
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
==> God gives full control to Jesus
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
==> The task of Jesus is to give eternal life to all things (=mankind)
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
==> And Jesus accomplishes His task
:thumbsup:
I'll bring these points to the discussion, thank you WW!
Quote from: Eduard on November 24, 2014, 11:07:15 AM
Now another has joined the debate, he says that God does offer salvation to all, but many choose to reject it and thus are damned.
Salvation is not an offer to be received or rejected by so called free will.
Some have been chosen to be saved for eonian life in Christ, but those who are not will be saved at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).
"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20 thru 28).
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Now they are saying that those verses are only talking about those that will be in the first resurrection. :sigh:
Quote from: Eduard on November 26, 2014, 07:34:02 PM
Now they are saying that those verses are only talking about those that will be in the first resurrection. :sigh:
They're wrong because the "all" that are dying are the same "all" that will be vivified and the same "all" that God will be all in.
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:22)
"The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:26)
"that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28)
Quote from: eaglesway on November 23, 2014, 01:36:37 AM
A slight change in perspective often changes how we hear.
Jesus is the savior of all who believe.
Eventually all will believe.
At present all do not believe, all are not yet reconciled, all are not yet saved, healed, delivered.
Every knee sahll bow and every tongue confess, wether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father(Phil.2:9-11)
All things will be reconciled to God through the blood of the cross of Christ, whether things on eaarth or in heaven(Col. 1:16-21)
All things will be gathered into one in Christ, things in heaven and earth (Eph 1:9-11)
As in Adam ALL die so also in Christ will ALL be made alive.......Every enemy will be subjected and death will be anulled and God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:23-28)
God has shut up all in disobedience that He will hav mercy on ALL........For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS.(Romans 11:32-36)
When I read that Jesus is the savior of all who believe without the context of these other verses(and more) I have picked a verse out of whole cloth(context) and given it my own meaning.
When I read all those other verses as well I see that Jesus is the savior of the whole world (in the fulness of times Eph 1) especially believers(now)
:dsunny:
Then verse 3:36 reads, "whoever disobeys the Son will NOT see LIFE, but must endure God's wrath."God's wrath:
Romans 1
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Life saves us from wrath:
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
And all will be made alive:
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Quote from: Eduard on November 26, 2014, 07:34:02 PM
Now they are saying that those verses are only talking about those that will be in the first resurrection. :sigh:
First of all, resurrections are harvests. Harvests aren't thrown away.
Secondly I again point to the Good Shepherd parable.
If the Shepherd saves all sheep before the second resurrection there can't be a 2nd resurrection because there is nothing resurrect.
If people get resurrected in the second resurrection they obviously weren't saved before the fist resurrection. If they are cast in hell they obviously aren't saved.
How can that be if the Good Shepherd saves every sheep?
Sin won't stop Jesus. The sin of the sheep was running away from the flock. The Shepherd's response to that is find the sheep and do whatever a shepherd does to get sheep back in the flock/fold.
Yes. That's why "each to their own order"
Eduard read this verse a few times. I think it's very powerful and discribes Father's mind/will very well
2 Sam 14:14 We each must die and disappear like water poured out on the ground. But God doesn't take our lives. Instead, he figures out ways of bringing us back when we run away.
Do you think theFather is smart enough to figure it out?
BTW this sorta stuff very often is about people who don't want to be saved/accept the gift of life. It's not just about Christians who can't stp sinning but also those without religion or pagans.
Quoting and old post of mine regarding the narrow road. I think it fits well in this discussion too....
About the narrow road is said that few shall find it. "find" is an activity of the believer.
Does that mean salvation is in our own hands? That one sheep couldn't find the flock either. Perhaps didn't even tried to. But that's not important because the parable tells us the shepherd decides he is going to find that sheep.
--> Shepherd decides how many are lost. Not the sheep.
--> The parable also tells us any shepherd will go searching. No questions asked.
The woman in the parable of the lost coin is about a woman searching for a totally passive coin. The coin didn't even make itself lost. Neither did it wanted to be lost or found. When the woman found the coin she was very happy.
--> The coin had zero input on its fate.
The prodigal son sort of rejected his father. He chooses to be cut off. The way he spends his money shows me he clearly was on the wide road. And that road completely destroyed him financially. Did his father reject him after this destruction/death?
No, he was extra happy when his son returned.
--> The last chance is never revoked.
Shepard=owner of sheep. Woman=owner of coins. Father=owner of son.
They all were sad when their "thing" was lost. They all celebrated when it was found again.
So no matter how many things Father lost on the wide road; He'll eventually finds them again.
So I think many things can be explained in different ways. And as isolated 'facts' the various explanations can be acceptable. But when when all those facts are grouped together only one conclusion can be drawn....
I agree
Quote from: Eduard on November 21, 2014, 04:14:04 PM
I used the Bible to support UR, he countered with: "John 3:18 "those who do NOT BELIEVE are CONDEMNED already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Then verse 3:36 reads, "whoever disobeys the Son will NOT see LIFE, but must endure God's wrath."
He also said: " Jesus Christ is the Savior of all WHO BELIEVE in Him. You really can't pick and choose Bible verses, and then ignore the ones that contradict your point of view ", but isn't that what he did? :dontknow:
Yes you have
to be already condemned to be
already Saved.
You have to be condemned first then saved.
I am already condemned and I am already saved.
If I do not believe I am saved.
I am still already condemned.
John 3
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
From what I see in the whole body of Gospel teaching is that those who have come out of the judgement are those who have ceased doing evil, because belief leads to receiving the Holy Spirit, so that our deeds "may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
From what I see in the whole body of Gospel teaching is that those who have come out of the judgement are those who have ceased their unbelief
...and evil deeds have ceased as a result. Gotta read the whole passage. Deeds having been wrought in God.
"Work outwardly your salvation in fear and trembling, for it is God in you both to work and will of his good pleasure." Phil 2:12
Anyone who does evil hates the light and will not come to the light so that his deeds will not be exposed.
I agree the starting point is their belief
then .....
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 10:45:45 PM
I agree the starting point is their belief
then .....
Agreed. For even demons believe and they tremble. Can that faith save them? Can they come to the light to be exposed? Maybe that was the torment they feared when Jesus cast them out.
I did not think I was posting too or for demons.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 10:52:35 PM
I did not think I was posting too or for demons.
I think James' example of demons was to show that being saved through faith is more than simply believing, but acting in in deed, or faith is dead and unable to save from the darkness....which men love. I think Christ's point is that those who both believe and come into the light are those who are saved from the darkness. But if, as with demons, we have faith but still love the darkness, we are not saved from it. Those who hate their brother remain in darkness, but if one who says he loves a brother who is hungry, and sends him on his way saying "be fed," has not been saved, for his actions have not been changed as they should. He is still working darkness through failure to love in deed. One cannot say he loves a brother when his actions say otherwise.
Eduard, scripture says those chosen for eonian life were chosen before the disruption of the world (Ephesians 1:4), not because of anything we've done (Ephesians 2:8,9), but all will eventually be saved from death when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26). All who die go to "hell" because that is just the Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," which is the state of dead souls. Even Christ went to the King James "hell" (Acts 2:27,31). "Hell" is not torture in fire forever for unbelievers. There is nothing you can do to keep yourself from going to "hell" when you die. Your adversary in your debate thinks he has chosen to be saved from "hell," but God chooses when anybody will be saved from death, not "hell," because all will be saved from death, some when Christ meets us in the air, and some at the consummation of the eons. That's the difference between the teaching of orthodoxy and the truth of scripture.
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).
"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).
I think demons and even Satan will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross because universal reconciliation means all of creation will be reconciled to God.
"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).
:iagree:
Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2014, 10:58:53 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 10:52:35 PM
I did not think I was posting too or for demons.
I think James' example of demons was to show that being saved through faith is more than simply believing, but acting in in deed, or faith is dead and unable to save from the darkness....which men love. I think Christ's point is that those who both believe and come into the light are those who are saved from the darkness. But if, as with demons, we have faith but still love the darkness, we are not saved from it. Those who hate their brother remain in darkness, but if one who says he loves a brother who is hungry, and sends him on his way saying "be fed," has not been saved, for his actions have not been changed as they should. He is still working darkness through failure to love in deed. One cannot say he loves a brother when his actions say otherwise.
I assumed when we used the word Faith we meant faith in Christ the crucified
But if, as with demons, we have faith
I don't know why you want equate our faith with that of demons.
I do know there are hungry people in your neighborhood.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 11:16:39 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2014, 10:58:53 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 10:52:35 PM
I did not think I was posting too or for demons.
I think James' example of demons was to show that being saved through faith is more than simply believing, but acting in in deed, or faith is dead and unable to save from the darkness....which men love. I think Christ's point is that those who both believe and come into the light are those who are saved from the darkness. But if, as with demons, we have faith but still love the darkness, we are not saved from it. Those who hate their brother remain in darkness, but if one who says he loves a brother who is hungry, and sends him on his way saying "be fed," has not been saved, for his actions have not been changed as they should. He is still working darkness through failure to love in deed. One cannot say he loves a brother when his actions say otherwise.
I assumed when we used the word Faith we meant faith in Christ the crucified
But if, as with demons, we have faith
I don't know why you want equate our faith with that of demons.
I do know there are hungry people in your neighborhood.
James 2 explains.
James 2
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
You have to believe God is Love.
Then you can enter into the works that where prepared before hand for you.
If I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 11:26:10 PM
You have to believe God is Love.
Then you can enter into the works that where prepared before hand for you.
Yes, but you cannot believe God is Love, but remain in darkness and be saved. One must come out of darkness. Those who remain in darkness are not saved from darkness. And John equates remaining in darkness as hating ones brother. That is why I believe in the concept of "already saved" in the sense of provision being made for it. But I don't think the Bible teaches that everyone is already saved beyond that, which is why their phraseology is consistent with idea that we are saved after we believe and come into the light.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 11:28:55 PM
If I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
I agree. And love, of course, is more than a feeling. :dsunny:
Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2014, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 11:26:10 PM
You have to believe God is Love.
Then you can enter into the works that where prepared before hand for you.
Yes, but you cannot believe God is Love, but remain in darkness and be saved. One must come out of darkness. Those who remain in darkness are not saved from darkness. And John equates remaining in darkness as hating ones brother. That is why I believe in the concept of "already saved" in the sense of provision being made for it. But I don't think the Bible teaches that everyone is already saved beyond that, which is why their phraseology is consistent with idea that we are saved after we believe and come into the light.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 11:28:55 PM
If I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
I agree. And love, of course, is more than a feeling. :dsunny:
The provision is already there,(saved)
then the gift of faith,(believe I am saved)
then the turning from darkness.(walking in my salvation)
The word "faith," translated from the Greek "pistis," literally "belief," is the noun for "believe."
"Now faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed" (Hebrews 11:1)
I think our sight is usually limited to the material world, but we've been given faith, or belief, as a gift from God. I think demons know who he is because they can see him in the spiritual realm.
I agree. And love, of course, is more than a feeling. :dsunny:
Love is more than a feeling is music to my ears.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 11:42:56 PM
I agree. And love, of course, is more than a feeling. :dsunny:
Love is more than a feeling is music to my ears.
Literally
I think we have faith, or belief, as a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8,9), because we're saved for eonian life, having been chosen before the disruption of the world (Ephesians 1:4). I think we sin because it is in our flesh, but grace superexceeds when we do (Romans 5:20) and there's no condemnation in Christ (Romans 8:1).
Quote from: Tom on November 26, 2014, 11:40:46 PM
The word "faith," translated from the Greek "pistis," literally "belief," is the noun for "believe."
"Now faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed" (Hebrews 11:1)
I think our sight is usually limited to the material world, but we've been given faith, or belief, as a gift from God. I think demons know who he is because they can see him in the spiritual realm.
Personally, I believe the distinction James is intending to draw is that the demons believe but do not act in love, so those who believe God is one, though doing well in that sense, are no more saved/healed from sin than demons are if they believe but their actions are not consistent with acting in love.
And I Think he clarifies his intention in the previous chapter when he says "put away all that remains of wickedness and receive the word implanted which is able to save/heal your souls."
I think the demons and Satan know who the Father is, but he created them for the purpose of being adversaries. That's why, despite the fact that some think it is unjust, I think they will also be reconciled. I think he created believers for the purpose of manifesting his love in this material world as a witness to the entire universe. I think we believe and are saved for eonian life because we've been chosen before we were even born to do so, not because of anything we've chosen to do. I realize this idea is not popular, but it's my understanding of scripture.
I agree with pretty much all you said about the eventuality of Satan being saved along with demons. :thumbsup:
Amen, brother. I believe the Father created all to serve a purpose in this grand drama of the universe, and he will eventually reconcile all on earth and in the heavens when there will be no more need for evil because he will be all in all.
the all.
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
The gathering together into one of all things in Christ, whether things in heaven or on earth.
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross, whether things in heaven or things on earth.
God will be all in all.
Simple math repeated over and over. All is all. Duh.
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
:dsunny:
So you saying all as in all? :laugh: :dsunny:
All as in100%.That's good math.
Yeah, but isn't that just some of all as in all of some or really all of all like maybe only some of all are dying in Adam so only some of all will be made alive in Christ or are all of all really dying in Adam and will all of all really be made alive in Christ? I guess so because that's what scripture says, right?
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. (1 Corinthians 15:22)
Orthodoxy is all about exclusion of those not judged worthy by man to be in the private club because they don't practice the tradition of the modern Pharisees, but the truth of scripture is inclusive of all of creation.
"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
...not all in some who think they've chosen to be saved by their own free will, but "all in all" because it is the will of the Father.
"our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth. For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:3-6)
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)
I have offered more arguments thanks to your posts , than you all for contributing!
Another believer joined, one who is undecided and who said he wanted to sincerely love Jesus, not out of fear. I think all of us can identify with that. I hope our arguments have been helpful and that he and others were encouraged to read more about UR. :Peace2: