In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)

[dajomaco]

But notice how God didn't tell them to get naked again.
That is my Point he clothed them so that they would not feel SHAME.
The Holy Spirit has shown me that I am CLOTHED.

He gave them better garments than they tried to make for themselves. What the Law does is that it exposes the sin that is within the flesh. It exposes a condition which man is not aware of until he tries to obey the Law. When that condition is discovered, God does not leave man in that condition, Jesus saves from sin by his Spirit and tells us not to walk by the Law but continue in the Grace that delivers from sin itself.

That is how man becomes conciliated in his mind to God. Sin causes suffering. God delivers man from sin by the washing, regeneration and rebirth of the Spirit. The devil tries to undo that work by tempting man to return to, The Law. So that the flesh might Glory and be worse off than before repentance.
and rebuild the sin that which was destroyed.

[Seth]

No longer being naked represents being clothed with Christ. Bring clothed with Christ means becoming a reflection of him on the earth. In other words, when people look at us, they should see a reflection of Christ because we are clothed with him, and therefore we walk as he walked. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that nakedness was not a desired state, even though it was how they were created. We are natural beings moving toward the spiritual. So rather than tell them not to be ashamed of their natural state, he gave them clothes. That represents being clothed with Christ rather than our own twigs and leaves (our own righteousness).

I am not arguing that those who walk in the Spirit should be walking in shame. What I am saying is that walking in the Spirit is to walk in obedience and therefore not to be doing things that would cause shame, like eating fruit we are told not to eat. Disobedience causes shame. Obedience removes shame.

Christ did not die so that rapists could rape without shame. He died to save us from being that way in the first place. People who rape without shame are sociopaths.

[dajomaco]

Now I say that as long as the heir is a child, he differs in no way from a slave, though he is the owner of everything.  2 Instead, he is under guardians and stewards until the time set by his father.  3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were in slavery under the elemental forces[a] of the world.  4 When the time came to completion, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,  5 to redeem those under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.  6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba, Father!"  7 So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don't go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you.  8 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment:  9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me;  10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me;  11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.


Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent,  31 because He has set a day when He is going to judge the world in righteousness by the Man He has appointed. He has provided proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead."


There is no one righteous, not even one.

11
There is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

12
All have turned away;
all alike have become useless.
There is no one who does what is good,
not even one.[h]

13
Their throat is an open grave;
they deceive with their tongues.
Vipers' venom is under their lips.[j]

14
Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.[k]

15
Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16
ruin and wretchedness are in their paths,

17
and the path of peace they have not known.[l]

18
There is no fear of God before their eyes.[m]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says speaks to those who are subject to the law,[n] so that every mouth may be shut and the whole world may become subject to God's judgment.

•   20 For no one will be justified[p] in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.
  
  
  But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed—attested by the Law and the Prophets[q]  22 —that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ,[r] to all who believe, since there is no distinction.  23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.  24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.  25 God presented Him as a propitiation[t] through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.  26 God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.[/color]
  [/b]

[Seth]

You didn't really explain why you posted those scriptures. I see support for everything I have said in them.

[dajomaco]

No longer being naked represents being clothed with Christ. Bring clothed with Christ means becoming a reflection of him on the earth. In other words, when people look at us, they should see a reflection of Christ because we are clothed with him, and therefore we walk as he walked. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that nakedness was not a desired state, even though it was how they were created. We are natural beings moving toward the spiritual. So rather than tell them not to be ashamed of their natural state, he gave them clothes. That represents being clothed with Christ rather than our own twigs and leaves (our own righteousness).

I am not arguing that those who walk in the Spirit should be walking in shame. What I am saying is that walking in the Spirit is to walk in obedience and therefore not to be doing things that would cause shame, like eating fruit we are told not to eat. Disobedience causes shame. Obedience removes shame.
Two men went up to the temple complex to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.  11 The Pharisee took his stand[e] and was praying like this: 'God, I thank You that I'm not like other people[f] —greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.  12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth[g] of everything I get.'


Christ did not die so that rapists could rape without shame.
Both you and the Rapist enter the same way
He died to save us from being that way in the first place.
He did not die so that human beings would stop sinning.

People who rape without shame are sociopaths.

[Seth]

No longer being naked represents being clothed with Christ. Bring clothed with Christ means becoming a reflection of him on the earth. In other words, when people look at us, they should see a reflection of Christ because we are clothed with him, and therefore we walk as he walked. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that nakedness was not a desired state, even though it was how they were created. We are natural beings moving toward the spiritual. So rather than tell them not to be ashamed of their natural state, he gave them clothes. That represents being clothed with Christ rather than our own twigs and leaves (our own righteousness).

I am not arguing that those who walk in the Spirit should be walking in shame. What I am saying is that walking in the Spirit is to walk in obedience and therefore not to be doing things that would cause shame, like eating fruit we are told not to eat. Disobedience causes shame. Obedience removes shame.
Two men went up to the temple complex to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.  11 The Pharisee took his stand[e] and was praying like this: 'God, I thank You that I'm not like other people[f] —greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.  12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth[g] of everything I get.'


Christ did not die so that rapists could rape without shame. He died to save us from being that way in the first place. People who rape without shame are sociopaths.

Brother, I think what you are missing is that the Pharisee was failing to love his brother, and therefore was actually in violation of the Law unlike he thought. The other man was ashamed of his sin and left justified for his humility. So one was disobedient and the other was obedient (repentance).

[dajomaco]

No longer being naked represents being clothed with Christ. Bring clothed with Christ means becoming a reflection of him on the earth. In other words, when people look at us, they should see a reflection of Christ because we are clothed with him, and therefore we walk as he walked. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that nakedness was not a desired state, even though it was how they were created. We are natural beings moving toward the spiritual. So rather than tell them not to be ashamed of their natural state, he gave them clothes. That represents being clothed with Christ rather than our own twigs and leaves (our own righteousness).

I am not arguing that those who walk in the Spirit should be walking in shame. What I am saying is that walking in the Spirit is to walk in obedience and therefore not to be doing things that would cause shame, like eating fruit we are told not to eat. Disobedience causes shame. Obedience removes shame.
Two men went up to the temple complex to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.  11 The Pharisee took his stand[e] and was praying like this: 'God, I thank You that I'm not like other people[f] —greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.  12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth[g] of everything I get.'


Christ did not die so that rapists could rape without shame. He died to save us from being that way in the first place. People who rape without shame are sociopaths.

Brother, I think what you are missing is that the Pharisee was failing to love his brother,(the rapist) and therefore was actually in violation of the Law unlike he thought. The other man was ashamed of his sin and left justified for his humility. So one was disobedient and the other was obedient (repentance).

[sheila]

so what if Jesus prefers a 'BLUSHING BRIDE"?  ever notice the one blushing is mortified about it?

[Seth]

No longer being naked represents being clothed with Christ. Bring clothed with Christ means becoming a reflection of him on the earth. In other words, when people look at us, they should see a reflection of Christ because we are clothed with him, and therefore we walk as he walked. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that nakedness was not a desired state, even though it was how they were created. We are natural beings moving toward the spiritual. So rather than tell them not to be ashamed of their natural state, he gave them clothes. That represents being clothed with Christ rather than our own twigs and leaves (our own righteousness).

I am not arguing that those who walk in the Spirit should be walking in shame. What I am saying is that walking in the Spirit is to walk in obedience and therefore not to be doing things that would cause shame, like eating fruit we are told not to eat. Disobedience causes shame. Obedience removes shame.
Two men went up to the temple complex to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.  11 The Pharisee took his stand[e] and was praying like this: 'God, I thank You that I'm not like other people[f] —greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.  12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth[g] of everything I get.'


Christ did not die so that rapists could rape without shame. He died to save us from being that way in the first place. People who rape without shame are sociopaths.

Brother, I think what you are missing is that the Pharisee was failing to love his brother,(the rapist) and therefore was actually in violation of the Law unlike he thought. The other man was ashamed of his sin and left justified for his humility. So one was disobedient and the other was obedient (repentance).

I am not sure you realize how posting that scripture defeats your argument and I mean that with all due respect. The "rapist" as you put it above was justified because he was ashamed and didn't hide it.

[dajomaco]

I am not sure you realize how posting that scripture defeats your argument and I mean that with all due respect. The "rapist" as you put it above was justified because he was ashamed and didn't hide it.

That is because you don't see the Pharisee is the sociopath.

Law and shame brings you to repentance.
FAITH and the leading of the Holy Spirit removes shame.
When a person uses the Law to remove shame he turns out to be a sociopath

[dajomaco]

so what if Jesus prefers a 'BLUSHING BRIDE"?  ever notice the one blushing is mortified about it?

I thought the bride blushed because she was pure.
Virgin.

[Seth]

I am not sure you realize how posting that scripture defeats your argument and I mean that with all due respect. The "rapist" as you put it above was justified because he was ashamed and didn't hide it.

That is because you don't see the Pharisee is the sociopath.

You can only know what I think if you ask me. The Pharisee was not obedient. He only thought he was. He wasn't ashamed of his sins, and that is what left him unjustified.

The other man was justified precisely because he was ashamed and he repented, something which you seem to think is a bad thing. That completely defeats your argument.

Law and shame brings you to repentance.
FAITH and the leading of the Holy Spirit removes shame.
When a person uses the Law to remove shame he turns out to be a sociopath

I believe one of the mistakes that Christianity makes is in associating with the law with obedience. Only the Holy Spirit can bring obedience not the law. The law actually holds people in disobedience so that the Savior can come and save them from sin. That is the whole point of Romans 7.

The Holy Spirit according to Paul in Titus 3, saves us from disobedience by the washing renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

[Seth]

so what if Jesus prefers a 'BLUSHING BRIDE"?  ever notice the one blushing is mortified about it?

I thought the bride blushed because she was pure.
Virgin.

Yes, that's because they don't engage in fornication.

[dajomaco]

I am not sure you realize how posting that scripture defeats your argument and I mean that with all due respect. The "rapist" as you put it above was justified because he was ashamed and didn't hide it.

That is because you don't see the Pharisee is the sociopath.

You can only know what I think if you ask me. The Pharisee was not obedient. He only thought he was. He wasn't ashamed of his sins, and that is what left him unjustified.

The other man was justified precisely because he was ashamed and he repented, something which you seem to think is a bad thing. That completely defeats your argument.

Law and shame brings you to repentance.
FAITH and the leading of the Holy Spirit removes shame.
When a person uses the Law to remove shame he turns out to be a sociopath

I believe one of the mistakes that Christianity makes is in associating with the law with obedience. Only the Holy Spirit can bring obedience not the law. The law actually holds people in disobedience so that the Savior can come and save them from sin. That is the whole point of Romans 7.

The Holy Spirit according to Paul in Titus 3, saves us from disobedience by the washing renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

:iagree: Obedience does not remove shame We agree  :gimmefive:

[Seth]

Repentance removes shame. Obedience removes the need for repentance. If you don't rape a woman you don't need to repent of it. See how that works?

[dajomaco]

so what if Jesus prefers a 'BLUSHING BRIDE"?  ever notice the one blushing is mortified about it?

I thought the bride blushed because she was pure.
Virgin.

Yes, that's because they don't engage in fornication.

Whether they engaged in fornication is irrelevant (they probably did fornicate) 

The bride has been made pure.

[Seth]

so what if Jesus prefers a 'BLUSHING BRIDE"?  ever notice the one blushing is mortified about it?

I thought the bride blushed because she was pure.
Virgin.

Yes, that's because they don't engage in fornication.

Whether they engaged in fornication is irrelevant (they probably did fornicate) 

The bride has been made pure.

...by the washing, and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, no more fornication because the mind is changed. That's the essence of repentance.

[dajomaco]

Repentance removes shame. Obedience removes the need for repentance.
Your obedience would have to exceed that of the Pharisee or you would still be a sociopath.
If you don't rape a woman you don't need to repent of it. See how that works?

[Seth]

Repentance removes shame. Obedience removes the need for repentance.
Your obedience would have to exceed that of the Pharisee or you would still be a sociopath.
If you don't rape a woman you don't need to repent of it. See how that works?

You're only a sociopath if you have no regret for sinning against a brother. Repentance reveals humility, which God LOVES. Obedience means turning away from sin.

[Seth]

The Pharisee wasn't obedient in the first place, that's the point. The difference between the two men is that the publican knew his own sin, and the Pharisee did not. therefore one repented the other did not. One had shame and the other did not.

You keep associating the Pharisee with obedience, but it is the other way around. The Pharisee was a lawbreaker and proudly so. The publican was a sinner too, but he felt shame and repented.

[dajomaco]

 Seth Says :Repentance removes shame.
Seth Says   :Obedience removes the need for repentance.

So if you have no Shame you have no reason to repent.
If you are obedient you have no shame.
Your obedience is now the Clothing you are wearing.

And that clothing will get you kicked out of the wedding ceremony

[Seth]

Seth Says :Repentance removes shame.
Seth Says   :Obedience removes the need for repentance.

So if you have no Shame you have no reason to repent.
If you are obedient you have no shame.
Your obedience is now the Clothing you are wearing.

And that clothing will get you kicked out of the wedding ceremony

You are telling me that obedience to God gets you kicked out of his wedding? Listen to what you are saying. Jesus says "away from me ye who work iniquity" not "away from me ye who are obedient."

I believe you are mistaken in assuming that adherence to the Law makes us obedient. Walking according to the Spirit makes us obedient. The Pharisee was disobedient and the publican was the one who felt shame and repented was therefore obedient.

People who feel shame about sinning against a brother are not the ones who get kicked out of the wedding ceremony.

[dajomaco]

Seth Says :Repentance removes shame.
Seth Says   :Obedience removes the need for repentance.

So if you have no Shame you have no reason to repent.
If you are obedient you have no shame.
Your obedience is now the Clothing you are wearing.

And that clothing will get you kicked out of the wedding ceremony

You are telling me that obedience to God gets you kicked out of his wedding? Yes your obedience will not be accepted.
Christ's obedience is the only acceptable obedience. This obedience or wedding garment is given freely. But you have to give up your own obedience. Some still prefer there own garments. [/color]  Listen to what you are saying. Jesus says "away from me ye who work iniquity" not "away from me ye who are obedient."

I believe you are mistaken in assuming that adherence to the Law makes us obedient. Walking according to the Spirit makes us obedient. The Pharisee was disobedient and the publican was the one who felt shame and repented was therefore obedient.

People who feel shame about sinning against a brother are not the ones who get kicked out of the wedding ceremony.

[Seth]

Seth Says :Repentance removes shame.
Seth Says   :Obedience removes the need for repentance.

So if you have no Shame you have no reason to repent.
If you are obedient you have no shame.
Your obedience is now the Clothing you are wearing.

And that clothing will get you kicked out of the wedding ceremony

You are telling me that obedience to God gets you kicked out of his wedding? Yes your obedience will not be accepted.
Christ's obedience is the only acceptable obedience. This obedience or wedding garment is given freely. But you have to give up your own obedience. Some still prefer there own garments. [/color]  Listen to what you are saying. Jesus says "away from me ye who work iniquity" not "away from me ye who are obedient."

I believe you are mistaken in assuming that adherence to the Law makes us obedient. Walking according to the Spirit makes us obedient. The Pharisee was disobedient and the publican was the one who felt shame and repented was therefore obedient.

People who feel shame about sinning against a brother are not the ones who get kicked out of the wedding ceremony.

Christ gives his obedience through the renewing and regeneration of the Spirit. Our own righteousness is by the Law. We have the righteousness of Christ because he lives through his people by the Spirit.

[dajomaco]

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Hope does not put us to shame.
The Holy Spirit does not shame believers.