..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..
Some thoughts have been taking shape for some time in my mind, like a bubble, but finally the idea popped :laughing7:
I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice. Once we see the 'face' of God - the pure and 100% holy Light of Life, perhaps it is we ourselves who ultimately would be satisfied with nothing less than our own sacrifice, after all, the 'soul' that sinneth it shall die, the wages/result of sin is death..
We being that sacrifice..
But surprise!! :banana: :dsunny: God built into creation itself our salvation, our rescue. And says, "It is done". "Great is Thy faithfulness.."
Quote from: marie glen on August 21, 2014, 07:16:46 PM
I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice.
:thumbsup:
Mankind dies, and God goes through the same thing through His Son Jesus Christ. God took responsibility for the sin of mankind from the day he put the tree and the serpent in the garden.
Quote from: marie glen on August 21, 2014, 07:16:46 PM
..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..
I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice.
Let's keep thinkin' about that :)
"According to the book of Exodus, Moses came down from Mount Sinai not only with the Ten Commandments, but with a long list of sacrifices that were required for righteousness before God.
Examples abound. The first sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is in Genesis 4 when Abel offered portions of a lamb to God as a sacrificial act. In Exodus 12, we read of the first commanded animal sacrifice in the scriptures. There we find Israel commanded to sacrifice a yearling lamb and to sprinkle blood on the doorframes to ward off the angel of death that was to visit Egypt. Most of the ink in Leviticus was used in prescribing the number and types of sacrifices required by God. Even in Jesus' life we read that there were appropriate sacrifices made for him after his birth: "They offered a sacrifice according to what is stated in the law of the Lord, 'a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons'" (Luke 2.24). And as an adult, it is clear that he participated in the Passover festival, which included sacrificing a lamb at the Temple (Luke 22)." - Home Church Network Assoc.
Quote from: marie glen on August 21, 2014, 07:16:46 PM
..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..
We being that sacrifice..
But surprise!! :banana: :dsunny: God built into creation itself our salvation, our rescue. And says, "It is done". "Great is Thy faithfulness.."
I personally have to be careful what I "think", and remember to try and trust what He says - whether I understand it or not (I often don't). That said, I don't believe the scripture says we're THE sacrifice, Jesus Is. And that's what was built into creation for our rescue - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Blessings.
Hi Marie Glen,
I am not quite sure, but if I understand it but here is how I see it using some of the phrasing you used.
The reason God built sacrifice into the Law is because he knew that man would be in a sinful state, and therefore we require a sacrifice of ourselves to be rid of that sinful state. Therefore, God created the Law to require blood, and Jesus provided that blood through his own body to be resurrected and by that life, sacrifices his own followers unto newness of life.
I do agree with James, God did require sacrifices, but that is because we required sacrifice in a spiritual way of ourselves to be free of death. Jesus brings that in the Spirit.
Jesus did say, take up your cross and follow me. Where are we going with those crosses?
To die to self - but I don't believe that's THE sacrifice. I believe that's obedience...to the One who is The sacrifice. Not to redeem ourselves - He and His sacrifice already did.
I see the sacrifice as beyond a historic moment in time, but that we become one with "the" sacrifice. In the physical realm Jesus was the only sacrifice to do away with the old covenant, but in the new, we become unified with that sacrifice through baptism and God requires us to be sacrificed well, hence the commandments to carry the cross. So, in the flesh Jesus had THE body, but in the Spirit his body is many membered expression of the sacrifice.
the old man of sin/adam in us is appointed to die.....underlaw without mercy.....but the
new man in Christ/regenerated bears his idenity with the Lamb who laid down his
life willingly in order to take itback up again...no man[of sin/prince of this wrld]takes it
he lays it down willingly/obediently to his Father's will
the old man Adam has his life forfeited by sin entering[taken from him]
perfection comes from obedience through suffering for doing His will
when you have been forgiven and given eternal life through your faith in Jesus and
received the Holy spirit.....death really has no claim on you as the new creature in
Christ. Thus..if ye beleive ye shall not die..even if ye die ye shall live. However if
the Father desire's..and in obedience to Him you lay it down...ye are partaking of
the likeness of His death.
we can be be perfected by suffering[even unto death] for obedeince. that is how
Jesus was perfected. Jesus told his disciples 'ye have not yet resisted sin unto
the spilling of your blood" ye can not come know,but will come later.........their
martyr's death came later.
my :2c:
:thumbsup:
The Bible refers to both a physical and metaphysical death (Romans 6). Physical death and death in sin, the carnal mind. We once knew Christ after the flesh, but we know him after the flesh no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature.
His sacrifice is contagious.
Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross
Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
If we are becoming partakers in the divine nature and being transformed into the image of Christ, we are becoming living sacrifices, because His sacrifice lives in us daily as we walk in His love. IMO, This is what it means to grow in grace. The branch that abides in the vine bears the same fruit as the vine.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 22, 2014, 06:59:16 PM
His sacrifice is contagious.
That is the most awesome way of saying it. :dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on August 21, 2014, 07:55:32 PM
Quote from: marie glen on August 21, 2014, 07:16:46 PM
..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..
I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice.
Let's keep thinkin' about that :)
"According to the book of Exodus, Moses came down from Mount Sinai not only with the Ten Commandments, but with a long list of sacrifices that were required for righteousness before God.
Examples abound. The first sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is in Genesis 4 when Abel offered portions of a lamb to God as a sacrificial act. In Exodus 12, we read of the first commanded animal sacrifice in the scriptures. There we find Israel commanded to sacrifice a yearling lamb and to sprinkle blood on the doorframes to ward off the angel of death that was to visit Egypt. Most of the ink in Leviticus was used in prescribing the number and types of sacrifices required by God. Even in Jesus' life we read that there were appropriate sacrifices made for him after his birth: "They offered a sacrifice according to what is stated in the law of the Lord, 'a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons'" (Luke 2.24). And as an adult, it is clear that he participated in the Passover festival, which included sacrificing a lamb at the Temple (Luke 22)." - Home Church Network Assoc.
I get what you're saying.. God cannot possibly let sin (imperfection) go.. one little taint changes the universe.. ..but that isn't what I was going to say! - He cannot 'let' sin.. that He cannot pardon a sin without a replacement.. without payment.. atonement.. (I had better wording but forgot it!) :Chinscratch: the wages, result of sin is death, an unchangeable law and fact..?
:gsmile:
I understand I think what you're getting at. I believe some of these things are such "hard sayings" for our finite humanity, what we think is our "logical" mind can't understand or accept. Thus, so many reject and "know better", or turn away from the truth and even the faith, "knowing better". Which of course leads to shipwreck of faith and destruction - for self, and sometimes for others.
My view on such deep things is so surface, sometimes I just have to go back to what the scripture says and sort of leave it at that, with "I don't know why God chose to do it like that but He did" - so I need to trust Him. That everything He does has a reason and is perfect ("in Him is no evil") - whether I can see it or understand it or not. So the thing I think of here is, I wouldn't say he "couldn't forgive without", but that He "chose to do it with", i.e., the atonement. Don't have the ready reference, but Jesus purchased us, paid the price. By His stripes. I believe He is the atonement. Exactly why and what all God was thinking, I don't know. I just believe it says He did and is.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Absolutely! It's aLL what ever the Word says! Isn't that great!?! We're not left afloat! :))
Quote from: ed on August 21, 2014, 07:32:34 PM
Mankind dies, and God goes through the same thing through His Son Jesus Christ. God took responsibility for the sin of mankind from the day he put the tree and the serpent in the garden.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteSo the thing I think of here is, I wouldn't say he "couldn't forgive without", but that He "chose to do it with", i.e., the atonement.
I agree. I think God structured his Law so that creating man new through the forgiveness of sin would require a blood sacrifice, so that in Christ dying would show the love of the Father, and create a way to be joined to him by the Firstborn. I don't take that to mean the God is.subservient to his Law but that his Law is a reflection of himself.
Jesus Christ forgave sin in his ministry, but a death was required by the Law to create a new man under the resurrected Spirit, the New Covenant.
Everything is by God's choice.
Quote from: Seth on August 30, 2014, 09:20:43 PM
QuoteSo the thing I think of here is, I wouldn't say he "couldn't forgive without", but that He "chose to do it with", i.e., the atonement.
I agree. I think God structured his Law so that creating man new through the forgiveness of sin would require a blood sacrifice, so that in Christ dying would show the love of the Father, and create a way to be joined to him by the Firstborn. I don't take that to mean the God is.subservient to his Law but that his Law is a reflection of himself.
Jesus Christ forgave sin in his ministry, but a death was required by the Law to create a new man under the resurrected Spirit, the New Covenant.
Everything is by God's choice.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I often find myself wanting to answer questions posed by staunch, challenging non-believers.. apologetics, I guess.. defense.. I've heard the accusation like God craved blood, or (gasp!) is bloodthirsty/cruel.. but it was the other so called 'gods' or ancient 'priests' of strange religions, who were like that.. but not in some non-believers view..
But which we know is not true of the heavenly Father, who "is love".. We can be assured, I believe, of two things, He is Perfect, and His motives are always love.. truth, yes, and purity/perfection/holiness/truth, but He IS love.. So requiring a sacrifice was/is an act of love, and as we know, absolutely not of any sort of cruelty, or anything - less than love..
:banana:
:thumbsup:
Just listened to the latest Jesus Trip which shares this very thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEE4D89D5173A151C&v=4WtxNzvHAFI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEE4D89D5173A151C&v=4WtxNzvHAFI)
Quote from: gregoryfl on August 30, 2014, 09:51:31 PM
:thumbsup:
Just listened to the latest Jesus Trip which shares this very thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEE4D89D5173A151C&v=4WtxNzvHAFI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEE4D89D5173A151C&v=4WtxNzvHAFI)
I like his expressionism! And his message! Very interesting! I plan to listen to more of his videos.. This one, I thought, was very good! :)
"If you've seen Me" Jesus said, "you've seen the Father.."
I believe that on the Cross, the full experience of Jesus was to include alienation from God the Father so that man could never be in the position to say that because Jesus was God, He had an advantage that man does not have.
However, Christ suffered more than any other human could or would ever have to suffer. On top of that, we have Jesus to turn to today; but because Jesus was perfect, He had to feel completely abandoned by God and man alike.
My opinion is that this helps man draw even closer to understanding who Christ was and the depths He would go to because of His love for humanity.
Quote from: marie glen on August 30, 2014, 11:23:00 PM
I like his expressionism! And his message! Very interesting! I plan to listen to more of his videos.. This one, I thought, was very good! :)
"If you've seen Me" Jesus said, "you've seen the Father.."
Yes, I enjoy his messages as well. Just know though that although he believes that all have been reconciled to God and included in the love of God, he believes, like the Eastern Orthodox churches, that man can choose to reject him forever and never enjoy what he has been given. If I did not believe that eventually every single human being will awaken to faith in Him and believe, I would believe what you will hear him share of man's will to choose or reject for eternity what God has done for him in Yeshua, and that acceptance is the experience of heaven, and rejection is the experience of hell.
:dsunny:
Quote from: lastpost on August 31, 2014, 12:28:23 AM
I believe that on the Cross, the full experience of Jesus was to include alienation from God the Father so that man could never be in the position to say that because Jesus was God, He had an advantage that man does not have.
However, Christ suffered more than any other human could or would ever have to suffer. On top of that, we have Jesus to turn to today; but because Jesus was perfect, He had to feel completely abandoned by God and man alike.
My opinion is that this helps man draw even closer to understanding who Christ was and the depths He would go to because of His love for humanity.
Quote from: jabcat on August 21, 2014, 07:55:32 PM
Quote from: marie glen on August 21, 2014, 07:16:46 PM
..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..
I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice.
Let's keep thinkin' about that :)
"According to the book of Exodus, Moses came down from Mount Sinai not only with the Ten Commandments, but with a long list of sacrifices that were required for righteousness before God.
Examples abound. The first sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is in Genesis 4 when Abel offered portions of a lamb to God as a sacrificial act. In Exodus 12, we read of the first commanded animal sacrifice in the scriptures. There we find Israel commanded to sacrifice a yearling lamb and to sprinkle blood on the doorframes to ward off the angel of death that was to visit Egypt. Most of the ink in Leviticus was used in prescribing the number and types of sacrifices required by God. Even in Jesus' life we read that there were appropriate sacrifices made for him after his birth: "They offered a sacrifice according to what is stated in the law of the Lord, 'a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons'" (Luke 2.24). And as an adult, it is clear that he participated in the Passover festival, which included sacrificing a lamb at the Temple (Luke 22)." - Home Church Network Assoc.
Animal sacrifice came earlier than Abel...It was God himself who performed it, when he took skins and clothed Adam and Eve as a covering for their nakedness..I often wonder what that was like for God...to have taken his own hand to one of his creatures and kill it...It is likely it was done in front of Adam, becoming associated for him with his shame and part of his Modus Operandi for the covering of his sin. This is probably why his son, Abel began to practice it, as, at this stage, there is no record of god commanding it...
Marie, You are right that it is we who required the sacrifice - as an offering for our guilt, and to satisfy our own corrupted conscience .. The system of sacrifice was a prime and profound example of the Lord, in mercy, meeting us where we were at. Man needed a way to feel ok about himself..
While God commanded it for man's sake - he never required it.
Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice...
Psalm 51:16 You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one. You do not want a burnt offering...
Psalm 40:6 You take no delight in sacrifices or offerings. Now that you have made me listen, I finally understand--you don't require burnt offerings or sin offerings. (NLV)
Mathew 9:13 Go learn what this means, 'I require mercy and not a sacrifice',
Jesus was saying in the above verse that God wanted man to learn mercy (for himself) instead of sacrifice. This was always true - but man could never let himself off the hook..
Mathew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
Jesus references the same verse again to teach the pharisees (yet another lesson), and as a further wonderful point, Jesus even goes as far as describing people as 'innocent'...
This is a great discussion wow so many wonderful thoughts !!!
It helps me to see /understand better !
I do believe His Spirit of holiness is with us :HeartThrob:
It does make sense to me, in the sense of this ,
once as dead in sin and the judgment , then those are dead in Christ , same as shedding blood in Hebrews 12 , the same taking up your cross and following Christ , this example as laying your life down of shedding your blood /life [sacrifice ] example as same Lamb of God , many , many sheep to the slaughter for the Gospels sake that is going to be also like Him , obedience and doing as He says and Does and produce fruit , new life Just as Jesus was dead , 1 Corinthians 15 , it must Die to be risen again with Christ in you the hope of glory , these verses especially , that makes Hebrews 12 make sense !! 35 But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?
36 Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die:
37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind;
38 but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
Hebrews 12 in this context shows the picture much better than this one liner of scripture
But I can see this picture in my mind /heart Wow
the WORD OF GOD is the SWORD that cuts the soul /life and Spirit as separate to become the same soul / life in Christ , Christ in you , you will do the same works as He did and because He went to the Father Heb 12 ;4
the same sacrifice of the Lamb , what if Able since he is mentioned as Christ speaking better things than Abel , is the first Lamb from the foundation laid down his life by sin in his own brother Cain ? Just as Jesus Christ died for all but come in the fullness of time /the OPEN SHOWING /SEALS ARE OPENED OF THE BOOK OF LIFE , the was , is and will be the Alpha and Omega beinging and end Rev 1 7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
the twice dead to me mean those whom were dead in sin and than judgement whom the life in Christ produced briers and thorns only to be burned
Hebrews 12
Holman Christian Standard Bible
In struggling against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
International Standard Version
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
NET Bible
You have not yet resisted to the point of bloodshed in your struggle against sin.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For you have not yet come as far as to blood in the struggle against sin.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
You struggle against sin, but your struggles haven't killed you.
oH MY so much to process , Glory to God !!!
Rosered, I did not understand everything you said....but I saw the spirit of your words and they shined :)
In this discussion on sacrifice, if God did not require it, but instead gave it to us as a way for us to be ok with our sin, then we might come to the place where we see that God also did not require Jesus to die. Although, he was pleased to offer his his son as a guilt offering, he did it for us, to give us a way to be free from the neurotic cycle of judgement, guilt and shame that had been with us since the fall..
Man's justice required that someone pay for all the wrong. Man's vengeance demanded it be God.
He obliged us on both counts..
Quote from: onesimus on September 20, 2014, 01:24:55 AM
In this discussion on sacrifice, if God did not require it, but instead gave it to us as a way for us to be ok with our sin, then we might come to the place where we see that God also did not require Jesus to die. Although, he was pleased to offer his his son as a guilt offering, he did it for us, to give us a way to be free from the neurotic cycle of judgement, guilt and shame that had been with us since the fall..
Man's justice required that someone pay for all the wrong. Man's vengeance demanded it be God.
He obliged us on both counts..
I disagree with your assessment of the sacrifice. I believe the sacrifice and Jesus' blood atonement did much more than relieve us of our self-induced neurosis. I'm not sure where you come up with all your conclusions, but I believe the scriptures teach something much different than that.
Thanks Jabcat. Good. :thumbsup:
Quote from: onesimus on September 19, 2014, 11:17:06 AM
While God commanded it for man's sake - he never required it.
What do you see as the difference between God commanding something and requiring it? From my perspective, God's commandments are required to do, and not doing them is equal to disobedience.
I do not want to cause problems here but no offense to anyone
Probably got it from the psalms of David
sacrifice you did not desire
Psalms 46
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require
Psalms 51 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
Hebrews 8 10First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"--though they were offered in accordance with the law.
Hosea 6 ;6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
I believe Jesus Christ was offered by God as a gift to mankind for all times of great mercy and grace
1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (NIV)
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NASB)
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)
Titus 3:4-7
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (NKJV)
John 10:27-28
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me. (NLT)
1 Timothy 1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hi rosie. IMO, there's nothing in your post to disagree with :declare:. But maybe some questions and thoughts, building on/going along with what you're saying.
Jesus was the Lamb, slain from the foundation. Man hadn't "demanded" it. Since Jesus (and prior, other sacrifices) was slain according to the Law, who wrote the Law? Not man, but God.
So yes, I think it's a great question as to what God meant exactly by the "not desiring sacrifice", etc., since
I believe there are scriptures showing that God DID at times request and even demand sacrifice, inclucing prior to His sacrifice of Jesus. I just don't believe that was just to "appease" us. Instead, I agree with this statement you made, "Jesus Christ was offered by God as a gift to mankind for all times of great mercy and grace", so I believe there is POWER in the cross, a working of the miraculous in what Jesus did and does for us - not just appeasing our conscience or giving us better "mental health" because we "realize" something and "got what we wanted". *I'm NOT saying YOU are saying that or believe that, but I think we can agree that some others, here and elsewhere (mostly elsewhere than TM) do believe those things.
I guess my view is that there is some mystery involved, and I feel a need to be careful so as to not minimize Christ's work at the cross - even though I can nowhere near fully fathom it.
Quote from: Seth on September 20, 2014, 02:14:13 AM
Quote from: onesimus on September 19, 2014, 11:17:06 AM
While God commanded it for man's sake - he never required it.
What do you see as the difference between God commanding something and requiring it? From my perspective, God's commandments are required to do, and not doing them is equal to disobedience.
In my opinion this is all about spirit.
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Rom 12:2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
The commandment is only valid in the spirit. In the flesh it is of no value, an unacceptable sacrifice.
Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
"A broken and a contrite heart O God, you will never reject".
IMO all that is written may be summed up in these three great commandments of Christ....
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your strength
"You shall love your neighbor as your self"
"A new commandment I give unto yopu, that you love one another."
.... And these words
"A broken and a contrite heart you will never reject."
The revelation of the cross is meant to bring brokeness through the testimony of the love of God in Christ.
The commandments were given as tutors- looking forward to Him- not as taskmasters or rulers.
Now that He is here- they have become shadows, transcended by the perfect law of liberty, discipleship to Christ in the love of God.
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye,
being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.Against such there is no law, and imo, no commandment beyond discipleship to Jesus.
Ifr anyone will be my disciple let them pick up their cross and come, follow me.
:iagree: with all the above.
What I am wondering from onesimus is whether or not the Jews were commanded to do the sacrifices or not. The Bible says that God commanded them to be done. So, then what's the issue? I guess I am a bit confused by the idea of command vs require. To me, a commandment is a requirement.
Quote from: Seth on September 20, 2014, 02:14:13 AM
Quote from: onesimus on September 19, 2014, 11:17:06 AM
While God commanded it for man's sake - he never required it.
What do you see as the difference between God commanding something and requiring it? From my perspective, God's commandments are required to do, and not doing them is equal to disobedience.
Thank you for your question...see Hebrews 10:8
"Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"--though they were offered in accordance with the law."
God commanded something that he did not desire, nor was he pleased with. He did not command it because He, himself required it - but because man needed it..
I've also listed the other verses I included when I made the statement u mentioned...
Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice...
Psalm 51:16 You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one. You do not want a burnt offering...
Psalm 40:6 You take no delight in sacrifices or offerings. Now that you have made me listen, I finally understand--you don't require burnt offerings or sin offerings. (NLV)
Mathew 9:13 Go learn what this means, 'I require mercy and not a sacrifice',
Mathew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
Jesus quotes the above OT quote twice in Mathew to the pharisees. Men who were the experts in the commandments...As i mentioned earlier, the father wanted man to learn to have mercy on himself and also on others rather than sacrifice
Yea, I see what you are saying, and what you are asking Onesimus.... The commandments were "for life", "that you may live and not die"- but they were definitely commanded, yet "in the Spirit"- not in the flesh(as dead works/religion/pursuit of ones own righteousness). The consequences for disobeying them were measured in degree- that measurement being(imo) metered according to the degree in which the violation injured the life of another, or defied the reign of God.
Didn t mean to interdict your question to Onesimus :o)
Thank you for your explanation and clarification. I think I understand what you are getting at. When I read Psalm 51 in its entirety, I see that David is peering into the new covenant, at the promise, and how that, as Eaglesway explained how that the sacrifice was to take on a spiritual meaning, doing away with the burnt offerings and we become the sacrifice (verse 17). What God was getting was burnt sacrifice without the broken spirit, and that is what makes the Law weak, and why Christ was able to do what the Law was not able to do (Romans 8), in sending the Spirit.
I do see that God required the sacrifices by way of commandment as a sign of Christ to come, and that he was slain from the foundation. The burnt sacrifices provide a reminder of sin, and the Spirit provides the death of sin.
Quote from: jabcat on September 20, 2014, 01:30:32 AM
Quote from: onesimus on September 20, 2014, 01:24:55 AM
In this discussion on sacrifice, if God did not require it, but instead gave it to us as a way for us to be ok with our sin, then we might come to the place where we see that God also did not require Jesus to die. Although, he was pleased to offer his his son as a guilt offering, he did it for us, to give us a way to be free from the neurotic cycle of judgement, guilt and shame that had been with us since the fall..
Man's justice required that someone pay for all the wrong. Man's vengeance demanded it be God.
He obliged us on both counts..
I disagree with your assessment of the sacrifice. I believe the sacrifice and Jesus' blood atonement did much more than relieve us of our self-induced neurosis. I'm not sure where you come up with all your conclusions, but I believe the scriptures teach something much different than that.
Thanks, Jabcat. Yes and yes on Jesus's death being much more than this type of relief :)
MY conclusions, if that is what they are, come from walking a long and windy road both in my life and through the scriptures..
I sense annoyance from you...and I wonder if that is real or whether it is just that I'm not familiar with you...It is hard to tell on the internet. In real life much of the way we communicate is in tone, body language and facial expression...but none of this is visible in an online forum..
Thanks for the reply onesimus and all. (I'll PM you later onesimus).
In the context of this whole discussion, anyone have any thoughts on the following? Thanks.
"The shed blood on the cross and of the O.T. animals was necessary because God told us in Lev. 17:11, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement." Atonement is a cleansing, a removal of sin. So, animal sacrifices were a temporary atonement that foreshadowed the real and permanent atonement of Jesus, who is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14).
Hebrews 9:11-14, "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" - Christian Apologetics
There are a lot of fuzzy things about this. For instance; the writ of divorce was given by Moses, not by God's design, but because of "the hardness of their hearts". God gave the people a king, not because He wanted to- but because they demanded one, sort of like they asked for meat in the wilderness.....yet He had incorporated in the law, commandments for kings, before kings were ever anointed. Imo, there is always a level of discernment and context required, because some commandments were absolutely from the heart of God for training in righteousness and preservation of life, community and love- a "tutor unto Christ".
Once in Christ, He is the fulfillment of the law unto righteousness by faith. Anyone following Him fulfills the law. how do we follow Him? In spirit and truth. To me this means growing in understanding the scriptures and knowing Him in the Spirit.
Quote from: jabcat on September 20, 2014, 03:13:18 AM
Thanks for the reply onesimus and all. (I'll PM you later onesimus).
It's ok, Jabcat :) I'm in a different time zone and signing off soon - for a few hours - and u might not get me on PM
I'm just glad I've worked out how to quote and cut and paste to answer people..
Quote from: eaglesway on September 20, 2014, 03:28:46 AM
There are a lot of fuzzy things about this. For instance; the writ of divorce was given by Moses, not by God's design, but because of "the hardness of their hearts". God gave the people a king, not because He wanted to- but because they demanded one, sort of like they asked for meat in the wilderness.....
Yes..for me, in my understanding, God has often given us the things we wanted (even when they were not what was best for us). It is a little like using food to entice a wounded wild animal into safety, gradually, ever so slowly, wooing it to trust you....like the verse in Hosea that says "I led Israel along with my ropes of kindness and love. I lifted the yoke from his neck, and I myself stooped to feed him." God stooping to feed us..
I've been running this over in my mind. Anyone please clarify, suggest changes in view, or comment on this summary;
Scenario #1
Jesus was the the sacrificial Lamb slain from the beginning
God didn't prefer it that way, man did
God went along with man even though He didn't want it that way
What was accomplished: Jesus showed true love on the cross by setting a good example, and now man is able to see things clearer and feel better about themselves (and about God)
Scenario #2
Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb slain from the beginning
God required sacrifice for the remission of sin (no forgiveness without shedding of blood)
God gave Jesus as the final Sacrifice to end all sacrifices, to be the atonement for sin, and to provide a way to the Father (redemption, cleansing of sin, providing for new spiritual birth)
I go with #2 with the added comment that God can forgive at any time but the requirements for blood are for the Law specifically.
God has always desired obedience over sacrifice.....it was man's disobedience[sin] that required the sacrifice......
sacrifice and offerings I did not desire..........in mercy was my delight. It is written..the son of man must go as it is written
but woe to that man[of sin/son of perdition] who betrays him.....
LOVE always does what is required of it.....looking not after it's own...I believe He did it for our sake..and not His own...He
sacrificed His only begotten son for our sakes..to show us the depth of Hislove for us.
the Law ..was added..for a reason.....
.
God is love, and I think love is about sacrifice. You sacrifice for your kids etc. God offered the ultimate sacrifice. I think everything has gone according to God's plan from the beginning and continues to do so. I think the sacrificial law given to the Jews was just a foreshadow of what would happen with Christ, but the law was necessary to show the Jews that their sacrifices weren't enough to save themselves from sin. The sad thing is most believers seem to think Christ's sacrifice has limited potential when, according to scripture, it is for all on earth and in the heavens.
I think the word "required" is making this confusing. Abstract concepts don't actually make requirements. They CAUSE things to be required, in this case by God. God required sacrifices because of disobedience.
Quote from: sheila on September 20, 2014, 11:44:26 PM
I believe He did it for our sake..and not His own...He
sacrificed His only begotten son for our sakes..to show us the depth of Hislove for us.
.
I believe God did it for more than a reason to just show us something. Maybe you do too, but these may be difficult things to explain and comprehend. I know I'm personally still thinkin'...
I believe there's more power involved and more of the miraculous accomplished at the cross than just an example provided.
Jabcat said "there's more power involved and more of the miraculous accomplished at the cross than just an example provided."
Yes to this. So much accomplished..."...if all that Jesus accomplished was written down, the whole world could not contain the books.."
His cross is the fulcrum our struggles are designed to continually swing us towards. Every path in the bible begins with the cross and every path leads there. All the verses of promise and blessing stem from it, while those of judgement and wrath push us toward it..
To lead us to his cross is the bible's primary job..All of the other uses of scripture, although valid, are subsidiary, subservient and orientated to this task..
At the cross is our freedom, our peace and our rest.
The cross is the real New Testament; "This cup is the new testament...."(Luke 22:20).
Sometimes, to our detriment, we label and treat the latter 27 books of the bible as if they were the New Testament, when they are not.
2 Cor 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new testament--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The New Testament is not something written. It is an act of pure love, and is based on the promises of God and his ability (not ours) to fulfill them.
The writers of those 27 books are divinely inspired to describe the actual New Testament for us, and they point to it for us, but their words are not an addendum of laws and regulations to it. There is no addendum to the cross: "It is finished".
A few people arrive at the cross quickly and unexpectedly and receive its rewards instantly, like the thief who died alongside Jesus...but for the majority of us, it is a gradual, troublesome march to find the grace that is there - grace that changes everything.
May we keep on marching!
Quote from: onesimus on September 21, 2014, 04:22:32 AM
So much accomplished..."...if all that Jesus accomplished was written down, the whole world could not contain the books.."
His cross is the fulcrum our struggles are designed to continually swing us towards. Every path in the bible begins with the cross and every path leads there. All the verses of promise and blessing stem from it, while those of judgement and wrath push us toward it..
At the cross is our freedom, our peace and our rest.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: onesimus on September 21, 2014, 04:22:32 AM
May we keep marching!
:thumbsup:
Quote from: onesimus on September 21, 2014, 04:22:32 AM
Sometimes, to our detriment, we label and treat the latter 27 books of the bible as if they were the New Testament, when they are not.
2 Cor 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new testament--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The New Testament is not something written. It is an act of pure love, and is based on the promises of God and his ability (not ours) to fulfill them.
The writers of those 27 books are divinely inspired to describe the actual New Testament for us, and they point to it for us, but their words are not an addendum of laws and regulations to it. There is no addendum to the cross: "It is finished".
I appreciate your respect for the cross. I believe there are things miraculous about it. I do believe "it is finished" has a (maybe not THE, but at least A) meaning of "paid in full", as in a business transaction of that day. I.e., Law fulfilled, price paid.
Although I agree in principle with much of it, I view the conclusions you come up with about the scriptures/letter/Spirit from a bit of a different angle than you describe above. I believe this reference primarily means the letter of the Law, not the scriptures in general (written Word). So I see this saying, Jesus is Spirit and we are to worship in spirit and truth - He has fulfilled the Law, is our Savior and Redeemer, so we no longer operate according to, are under, or teach, the Law. So our relationship with Him now is based on the new covenant, grace and the work of the cross, not works of the Law (Spirit not letter [Law]).
Quote from: Seth on September 20, 2014, 11:37:36 PM
I go with #2 with the added comment that God can forgive at any time but the requirements for blood are for the Law specifically.
Agree on #2.
As for the requirement of blood, I could see how that might be the case - with Jesus fulfilling it.
Jabcat says... (sorry, have not quite worked out how to quote someone's post when there are several quotes in there )...Although I agree in principle with much of it, I view the conclusions you come up with about the scriptures/letter/Spirit from a bit of a different angle than you describe above. I believe this reference primarily means the letter of the Law, not the scriptures in general (written Word). So I see this saying, Jesus is Spirit and we are to worship in spirit and truth - He has fulfilled the Law, is our Savior and Redeemer, so we no longer operate according to, are under, or teach, the Law. So our relationship with Him now is based on the new covenant, grace and the work of the cross, not works of the Law (Spirit not letter [Law]).
[/quote]
I understand your angle and like it! :winkgrin:
I'm glad!
----------------------
This thread has got me thinking about my own views and understanding on it. Laying in bed this morning thinking about this, the idea that God didn't "want" or prefer the sacrifice, but instead wants mercy. I think of course He wants mercy. But I'm not sure the end of the Lord being merciful, and His heart being mercy, negates that it seems He still set things up this way, and yes, even required it (mystery, perhaps beyond understanding?). How do all the scrips about God not wanting sacrifice, many of which are quoted earlier in this thread, reconcile with the following passage from Hebrews - which to me, seems to say God set it up that way, it was HIS plan (Christ, Lamb slain from foundation), and especially that it served a miraculous purpose [redemption] beyond just giving us what we wanted and helping us "feel" better?
So to me, it's obvious (and joyous) [and I accept nothing different] that God worked a miracle for all time at the cross, not just being a good example or "showing us love". Beyond that, how do we reconcile "God didn't want it but acquiesced", with the following? I'm honestly not totally clear on exactly how they reconcile, unless it's this - He prefers only mercy, but in His omniscience knows it had to be some other/a certain way so that's how He did it. :Chinscratch:
Hebrews 9:12 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
[the "legal" transaction ("it is finished/paid in full")] 16 For where a will [legal will of inheritance] is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, [the miracle of the cross] he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2014, 08:47:23 PM
20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
It was commanded
for us ...I don't think the sacrifice was about God 'acquiescing' . It was his plan. It was his plan for man (sorry). Man's conscience fell too...he needed a way to deal with sin and guilt, otherwise how could he live? Many of the great men in the bible, like Moses, Abraham, and especially, David had a relationship with God that was based on faith. Faith sustained an ongoing relationship with the father, even at times when sin was involved. Faith allows for the covering of sin and even that sin not be taken into account (Romans 4).
But to the average guy, who didn't have that type of faith, sacrifice (and, in my view, the whole law) provided a way to live..
I agree that's not the whole picture. But I don't see God commanding sacrifice for himself. It is all for us really. Everything. God is love. We are the objects of his love. His love is never self-seeking (like our love can be sometimes) (1 Corinthians 13)
Sure it was for us. It's the free gift.
But I don't believe that alone answers the question. How does strictly doing it for us; put away sin? Secure eternal redemption? Fulfill the Law? And if He didn't "require" blood (without a better way to say it) how does the shedding of blood bring forgiveness of sins?
Here's where I believe the whole "He only did it for us" POV " can begin to "break down", and IMO, has the potential to minimize the power of the cross. I don't mean perceived doing away with sin, or perceived redemption, or perceived forgiveness...because I don't believe that's what the scriptures say. They say it was indeed literally brought about by God's act of the sacrifice of His Son. The cross did more than change our perception or ease our conscience.
Just to throw in a viewpoint to the mix, I don't think that forgiveness of past sins does away with the problem of sin as a destructive presence and force in someone's life. Forgiveness clears the slate of past sins and ushers man into a new covenant, but the problem of sin will continue until man grows in grace and the peaceable fruit of righteousness is realized through God's chastening.
All of that is good :) Everyone has their own walk. ...On my journey, I have gradually come to understand that sin is over, because that which names and defines it is over...For me, the law did a wonderful job of leading me to the cross and then it got up on there with him..
I'd really like to curb any offense over this if possible, please, by stating that I have no problem with someone who still holds the law as dear and true in their life..
In my experience, the paradox of this truth, is that, as I have let go of law, many troublesome issues in my life, which I would have previously called 'sin' have not only run out of steam, they have vanished...In terms of what some might call 'morality' and 'righteous living' - although describing it in those terms is irksome to me - I live a life beyond my wildest dreams.
If sin is over, then why are there heroin addicts, murders, rapists and child molesters in the world? Those things should not exist if sin is over.
In my humble opinion, I believe both ET and parts of UR have gone sideways due to a lack of teaching about why the Holy Spirit is so necessary for salvation. In ET, I was never taught that the Holy Spirit was necessary for salvation itself, just more of a side issue/benefit. That carried over into my UR belief, until the Roman 5:10 bell rang.
Now I believe that the Spirit is absolutely critical to salvation. And, I believe the Apostles hung the entire teaching of the new covenant on the necessity of the promise of the Spirit.
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2014, 02:48:51 AM
If sin is over, then why are there heroin addicts, murders, rapists and child molesters in the world? Those things should not exist if sin is over.
I know its over for me and that takes faith, which many do not have, or they have it in lesser degrees..I guess each person needs to find out for themselves that the fight is over...I sometimes think the cross is like a rock thrown in the middle of a pond. It's done...but the ripples haven't all got to the shoreline.
What do you make of Apostle John's comment that if we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us? He also says that that if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive and cleanse us, but if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2014, 05:01:58 AM
What do you make of Apostle John's comment that if we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us? He also says that that if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive and cleanse us, but if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.
The verse isn't really a heavy one. 'Sin' (properly) means 'missing the mark'....Of course I miss the mark. But missing the mark might mean something different to me as it does to you. To me, for instance, I miss the mark when I allow myself to come under law, even one of the laws of the apostles..
Being dead to sin and sin being dead to me is a principle that, for me, depends upon my being dead to law and law being dead to me...
In Romans 2, Paul says that for those who have had a circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, the Law is written on their hearts, so in essence they are not lawless, but that the Spirit is their guide. But sin is lawlessness according to the Bible.
I'm not lawless, I still have at least one law; it's called 'the perfect law of liberty' (somewhere in James)... That is not a joke and not meant to irritate you.
I believe everything has been done and I have peace, rest and freedom. Being free allows me to live how I want. Strangely, how I want to live happens to correspond to the highest points of the law.
I wrestled with the heaviness of sin and such things for 34 years...Many questions have been answered as I found the Lord in life as well as in the word. Sometimes the way we read the scriptures has a lot to do with where we are at.
Someone once said to me that the difference between a good interpretation of scripture and a better one is time..
Not that anything you hold to be true is wrong. Just that, as we go on in him, with each new stage of life also comes a new set of bible reading glasses..
No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2014, 06:27:58 AM
No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?
I believe James is speaking from the POV of a man who has found true freedom...
For me, the 'liberty' cannot be qualified by the words 'from sin' or 'to sin', because it includes both, the freedom to sin is the freedom to not sin. That's the point - for me.
I guess, without really spending much time looking at it, the word implanted is Christ...implanted when we believe it, perhaps.. I don't know if we can say exactly, like it is a science...
I must go and look after some animals (daytime here)
thanks..
Quote from: onesimus on September 22, 2014, 06:23:23 AM
I'm not lawless, I still have at least one law; it's called 'the perfect law of liberty' (somewhere in James)... That is not a joke and not meant to irritate you.
I believe everything has been done and I have peace, rest and freedom. Being free allows me to live how I want. Strangely, how I want to live happens to correspond to the highest points of the law.
I wrestled with the heaviness of sin and such things for 34 years...Many questions have been answered as I found the Lord in life as well as in the word. Sometimes the way we read the scriptures has a lot to do with where we are at.
Someone once said to me that the difference between a good interpretation of scripture and a better one is time..
Not that anything you hold to be true is wrong. Just that, as we go on in him, with each new stage of life also comes a new set of bible reading glasses..
I think it is important to share our personal experiences in the Word and the Life. It takes time and conversation before we understand one another, especially when in a forum, where the process is much more limited than, for instance, face to face communication. We often dance around in futility because our understandings of words and the application of concepts connected to words can be different on the surface while being more closely aligned in what we actually hold in our hearts- and of course sometimes not aligned at all. The word of God is the equalizer. The scriptures and the Holy Spirit teach us and move us onward- but our interaction, discussion, etc. is very mucgh a part of that process.
The perfect law of liberty is the highest law. it is the end of all things, the consummation into which all creation will be set free from futility.
The perfect law of liberty is that I live for the Vine because I am grafted into the Vine by love, the life sap of the Vine. The commands that are tutors to lead us towards the perfect law of liberty are good and profitable in the Spirit(being pointers to the perfect law and evidences for those who walk in it.)
The elements of our midrash over the truth is based in the scriptures, properly translated and illuminated by the Spirit.
Our testimonies involve our personal perspectives and experiences, and are important but secondary to the scriptures.
That's why as difficult as it may be- we are to share our views as opinions on the forum, and not elevate our personal perspective above the level of discussion. Anything else leads to judging and strife and carnality of various degrees.
The medium is not up to any larger task than that which we are focused upon, the Salvation of All.
When one person says"law" or "command" he or she may fully understand the difference between the "law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul" in the larger context of "the perfect law of liberty"(obedience of faith and love). Another speaks the same words, trapped in legalism, thinking that salvation is by keeping a particular commandment, or group of them, or(God help them) all of them.
Between that gulf there are varying degrees of understanding and confusion.
We have to make sure we do not elevate our own testimony, and keep the conversation in the scriptures, as it is written,
Ro. 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly:
From my POV everyone who walks in the perfect law of liberty does so because they have been, "set free from futility" and has been converted from walking in progressive sin(selfishness) to walking in progressive righteousness(love for God and man).
Ro. 8:19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.......
.... And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The liberty is being filled with the divine nature. There is no liberty in the flesh.
:2c:
Quote from: onesimus on September 22, 2014, 06:45:53 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2014, 06:27:58 AM
No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?
I believe James is speaking from the POV of a man who has found true freedom...
For me, the 'liberty' cannot be qualified by the words 'from sin' or 'to sin', because it includes both, the freedom to sin is the freedom to not sin. That's the point - for me.
I guess, without really spending much time looking at it, the word implanted is Christ...implanted when we believe it, perhaps.. I don't know if we can say exactly, like it is a science...
I must go and look after some animals (daytime here)
thanks..
No problem talk to you soon.
The reason I asked the question is that in James 2 he says
James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers
In other words, it appears that James is saying that because the Word is implanted in us, it is able to save us from moral filth, and if so, if the law is written in our hearts, and we fail to love our neighbors we become transgressors.
James is defining sin as acting without love.
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2014, 07:02:38 AM
Quote from: onesimus on September 22, 2014, 06:45:53 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2014, 06:27:58 AM
No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?
I believe James is speaking from the POV of a man who has found true freedom...
For me, the 'liberty' cannot be qualified by the words 'from sin' or 'to sin', because it includes both, the freedom to sin is the freedom to not sin. That's the point - for me.
I guess, without really spending much time looking at it, the word implanted is Christ...implanted when we believe it, perhaps.. I don't know if we can say exactly, like it is a science...
I must go and look after some animals (daytime here)
thanks..
No problem talk to you soon.
The reason I asked the question is that in James 2 he says
James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers
In other words, it appears that James is saying that because the Word is implanted in us, it is able to save us from moral filth, and if so, if the law is written in our hearts, and we fail to love our neighbors we become transgressors.
James is defining sin as acting without love.
He is also describing love the perfect law of liberty as setting us free from sin. Anyone who has been set free loves his neighbor as himeself.
:thumbsup:
I definitely don't believe that James was teaching salvation from the concept of sin, but salvation from sin as in refusal to love as we have been loved of Jesus.
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2014, 07:02:38 AM
Quote from: onesimus on September 22, 2014, 06:45:53 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2014, 06:27:58 AM
No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?
I believe James is speaking from the POV of a man who has found true freedom...
For me, the 'liberty' cannot be qualified by the words 'from sin' or 'to sin', because it includes both, the freedom to sin is the freedom to not sin. That's the point - for me.
I guess, without really spending much time looking at it, the word implanted is Christ...implanted when we believe it, perhaps.. I don't know if we can say exactly, like it is a science...
I must go and look after some animals (daytime here)
thanks..
No problem talk to you soon.
The reason I asked the question is that in James 2 he says
James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers
In other words, it appears that James is saying that because the Word is implanted in us, it is able to save us from moral filth, and if so, if the law is written in our hearts, and we fail to love our neighbors we become transgressors.
James is defining sin as acting without love.
lol, the cows can wait a few minutes..I just wanted to post this..
Seth, Read the James verse in context:
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
James is offering the same argument as Paul (latter half of Romans 2) ie that the law is faulty, because if you break it in one point, you've broken it all...see verse 12 particularly...
Paul also summed up this in Galatians 2
"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18"For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God....
Check it out, verse 18 is talking about rebuilding what was destroyed (the system of law)...the NLV translates it.."Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down." It's a little crass but true
Eaglesway: Sorry, didn't mean to offend re the forum guidelines...Our own testimony is a very valid and scriptural way of 'bearing witness'....rev 12:20
Ill come back in a couple of hours :)
Quote from: onesimus on September 22, 2014, 07:31:30 AM
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
James is offering the same argument as Paul (latter half of Romans 2) ie that the law is faulty, because if you break it in one point, you've broken it all...see verse 12 particularly...
Paul was not saying the Law was faulty in Romans 2. He is saying that it is implanted in the hearts of those who are circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. It's the same point James makes when he says that if you follow the royal law "thou shalt love they neighbor" you do well, but if you don't then you become a transgressors.
That is why he says "speak and act as as those who will be judged by the law that brings liberty."
Both Paul and James preached that Gods law is implanted. God's people are not lawless, but that the Spirit causes their actions to be conformed to love without being under the letter of the Law.
John provides another way of saying it
1 John 3
4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
11For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.
13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him 20in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Sin is lawlessness. The failure to abide by his commandments is sin. In the new covenant, the commandments are, believe in Jesus and love one another. Again, just as with James, sin is acting outside of love.
No problem, Seth. If these verses put wood in your stove and these commandments are working for you, then I am happy, my brother!
I liked the introduction to your website, too. What a wonderful story you have to tell!
Hi there
Oh my,,, the main confusion sooooo many have
I have heard hard core preachers rail on folks about sinning ,those hell fire and brimstone preachers and teachers , pick certain verses and literally beat you to DEATH with them ....
Main verses, if you say you have no sin you lie and the truth IS NOT in you and the answer is walk in the LIGHT , and how to stay in the Light , knowledge of God though Christ by loving one another than you have fellowship with God , that seems to cure the ill of sin sickness of the heart and spiritual blindness
hard of hearing His Voice etc.
My main question is stumbling in the WORD OF GOD , I know God can make you stand even if you trip many times over .
So those who think they have the seed in them do not actually have it when they do not abide /stay in the Truth ?
Here is all the scriptures for me there is always a counter , so the examining yourselves seems to a constant looking for Christ within/ near your heart right ?
Walking in the Light
(John 8:12-30)
5This then is the message which we have heard from him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
those born above of God do not sin because the seed remains within their hearts ,
1John 1 ;3
And behold how much the love of The Father abounds to us, that he has called us and also has made* us children; because of this, the world does not know us, because it does not know him.
2Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it has not been revealed until now what we are going to be, but we know that when he has been revealed, we shall be in his likeness, and we shall see him just as what he is
. 3And everyone who has this hope upon him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
4But whoever commits sin commits evil, for sin is entirely evil.
5And you know that he was revealed to take away our sins and there is no sin in him. 6No one who remains in him commits sin, and no one who sins has seen him, neither has he known him.
7Children, let no one deceive you; he who does righteousness is righteous even as The Messiah* also is righteous.
8He who commits sin is from Satan*, because Satan* is a sinner from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this reason: To destroy the works of Satan*
. 9No one who is begotten from God commits sin, because his seed is in him and he is not able to sin because he has been begotten from God.
10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of Satan: no one who does not do righteousness, neither loves his brother, is from God.
11For this is the commandment that you have heard from the first: "You shall love one another",
12Not like Cain who was from The Evil One and murdered his brother; and why did he murder him? Only because his works were evil and those of his brother were righteous.
13Do not be surprised, my brethren, if the world hates you.
14We know that we have departed from death into life by this: Because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother remains in death.
15For everyone who hates his brother murders a person, and you know that eternal life cannot abide in anyone who murders a person*.
16By this we know his love toward us, for he gave his Life in our place, and it is right for us also that we would give our lives for the sake of our brothers.
17Whoever has worldly possessions and sees his brother who has a need and withholds his compassion from him, how is the love of God in him?
18Children, let us not love one another with words and with speech, but in deeds and in truth. 19And by this we are made known that we are from the truth, and we assure our hearts before he comes*.
20For if our heart condemns us, how much greater is God than our heart? And he knows all things. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have boldness before God
. 22And we shall receive all the things that we ask from him, because we keep his commandments and we do good before him.
23And this is his commandment: that we believe in The Name of his Son, Yeshua The Messiah, and we should love one another, as he commanded us*. 24And whoever keeps his commandments is kept* by him and he dwells in him, and by this we perceive that he lodges in us, from his Spirit, that one whom he has given to us.
I see Seth has 1 John 3 as well , If those stay in hope and home and rest in hope they do not have the challenges of those whom go out seeking fellowship with one another
I say this by example , I have had 2 others two different times move in to our house whom say they Believe and NOW there is another new one who wants to move in who claims the Lord as well , from those first two trials evil was present
from all of us and I do not want to do this again !!! HELP !
I do not think any of us can justify ourselves ever using scripture either
One of the hardest things to do is love everyone all the time
Its not possible to do because of the offenses that come and evil that rises up in doing good , Jesus proved it on that CROSS !
This dying to self , is a true test of faith !!
But have found comfort in the scriptures in knowing now let your YES , be YES and NO be NO , anything more and EVIL IS PRESENT !!
4'And forgive us our sins even as we forgive all who are indebted to us, and do not lead us into temptation, but save us from The Evil One.'" *
and its the Lord whom can keep us from temptation / acting in doing evil and the guilt and regret after and save us from the evil one by praying for HIS HELP!!
Does anyone know how much offspring of the Evil One is in the world ?
What of how many offspring of the CHRIST seed remains ?
Would not the offspring of Christ Seed crush the evil one within you ?
How about in others with that evil seed rising up in them crushing those heads and bruising the heels with the HOLY SEED of CHRIST within your heart ?
But here is the thing for me here , Jesus also says seeking rest finding none in the water less / famine stricken places for the WORD OF GOD
the dry, being scorched of heat and fire that Jesus said when He sets the world on fire by opening those seals so judgment is in the earth
One is worse off looking for places to rest in fellowship with others when those you find whom offspring /children are being your judges , is this what Jesus is saying ???????
Are the offspring / children of the Evil One seed or Of Christ seed when they judge you ?
. 17But because Yeshua knew their thoughts he said to them, "Every realm that is divided against itself will be laid waste,
and the home that is divided against its nature falls."
18And if Satan is divided against himself, how will his Kingdom stand?; for you say that by Beelzebub I cast out devils."
19"And if I am exorcising devils by Beelzebub, by whom are your children exorcising? Because of this they will be your judges."
20"But if I cast out devils by the finger of God, the Kingdom of God has come near to you."
21"Whenever an armed strongman keeps his homestead, his property is at peace."
22"But if one who is stronger than he will come to overpower him, he takes all his weapons in which he was trusting and he divides his spoil."
23"Whoever is not with me is against me and whoever does not gather with me is scattering."
24"Whenever a vile spirit has gone out from a man, it goes traveling around in places where there is no water to seek rest for itself;
Whenever it does not find it, it says, 'I shall return to my house from whence I came.' "
25"And when it has come, it finds it swept and decorated."
26"And it goes bringing seven others spirits which are more evil than itself, and they are entering and dwelling there, and the end of that man will be worse than his beginning."
Its this because of the offspring of vipers /children of the Evil One are judging you? / So you are carrying this back home into your home /within you ??
and so the torment begins ??
It is so easy to say and so very hard to do , this is what I have found in tests
Like passing a nursing exam for example , you ace it or even pass with good marks , but when you actually have those real LIFE challenges and practice it on the day to day its overwhelming , especially the unexpected
Does anyone else know this also, as a truth ?
and these three things 'REMAIN" Faith,Hope and Love...but the greatest of these is Love.
Quote from: sheila on September 22, 2014, 04:53:47 PM
and these three things 'REMAIN" Faith,Hope and Love...but the greatest of these is Love.
Boy DO i ever agree with that sis ,
But our faith , hope & LOVE is put to the test!!! :winkgrin:
to me,sis, that faith hope love IS THE CHRIST SEED..........and along with the spirit of truth[helper] it leads into all truth
that pertains to Christ...faith will not give out when it is corrected by 'truth' neither hope nor love..as we walk and mature in Him.
two wittness's
Quote from: onesimus on September 22, 2014, 11:04:52 AM
No problem, Seth. If these verses put wood in your stove and these commandments are working for you, then I am happy, my brother!
Well, I hope those commandments are working for anyone who says that they follow Christ. Because those are HIS commandments, not mine.
Quote from: onesimus on September 22, 2014, 11:04:52 AMI liked the introduction to your website, too. What a wonderful story you have to tell!
Thank you :friendstu:
Quote from: onesimus on September 22, 2014, 07:31:30 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2014, 07:02:38 AM
Quote from: onesimus on September 22, 2014, 06:45:53 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2014, 06:27:58 AM
No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?
I believe James is speaking from the POV of a man who has found true freedom...
For me, the 'liberty' cannot be qualified by the words 'from sin' or 'to sin', because it includes both, the freedom to sin is the freedom to not sin. That's the point - for me.
I guess, without really spending much time looking at it, the word implanted is Christ...implanted when we believe it, perhaps.. I don't know if we can say exactly, like it is a science...
I must go and look after some animals (daytime here)
thanks..
No problem talk to you soon.
The reason I asked the question is that in James 2 he says
James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers
In other words, it appears that James is saying that because the Word is implanted in us, it is able to save us from moral filth, and if so, if the law is written in our hearts, and we fail to love our neighbors we become transgressors.
James is defining sin as acting without love.
lol, the cows can wait a few minutes..I just wanted to post this..
Seth, Read the James verse in context:
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
James is offering the same argument as Paul (latter half of Romans 2) ie that the law is faulty, because if you break it in one point, you've broken it all...see verse 12 particularly...
Paul also summed up this in Galatians 2
"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18"For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God....
Check it out, verse 18 is talking about rebuilding what was destroyed (the system of law)...the NLV translates it.."Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down." It's a little crass but true
Eaglesway: Sorry, didn't mean to offend re the forum guidelines...Our own testimony is a very valid and scriptural way of 'bearing witness'....rev 12:20
Ill come back in a couple of hours :)
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
When the real truth of this verse was revealed to me.
The last thing I wanted to see was sin.
Not only Sin in my life But especially sin in a brother or sisters life.
[/size]
Galatians 5
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2014, 08:47:23 PM
This thread has got me thinking about my own views and understanding on it. Laying in bed this morning thinking about this, the idea that God didn't "want" or prefer the sacrifice, but instead wants mercy. I think of course He wants mercy. But I'm not sure the end of the Lord being merciful, and His heart being mercy, negates that it seems He still set things up this way, and yes, even required it (mystery, perhaps beyond understanding?). How do all the scrips about God not wanting sacrifice, many of which are quoted earlier in this thread, reconcile with the following passage from Hebrews - which to me, seems to say God set it up that way, it was HIS plan (Christ, Lamb slain from foundation), and especially that it served a miraculous purpose [redemption] beyond just giving us what we wanted and helping us "feel" better?
So to me, it's obvious (and joyous) [and I accept nothing different] that God worked a miracle for all time at the cross, not just being a good example or "showing us love". Beyond that, how do we reconcile "God didn't want it but acquiesced", with the following? I'm honestly not totally clear on exactly how they reconcile, unless it's this - He prefers only mercy, but in His omniscience knows it had to be some other/a certain way so that's how He did it. :Chinscratch:
Hebrews 9:12 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
[the "legal" transaction ("it is finished/paid in full")] 16 For where a will [legal will of inheritance] is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, [the miracle of the cross] he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
..very interesting! and very good verses!
one thing I have thought about is the cross as a symbol of sincerity and graphic importance.. a symbol of God's forgiveness and reaching out which is strong enough to pierce every psyche`
I guess I think wandering from God is a psychosis... now that I think about it! And what else (but the cross) would work? able to transform/reconcile all.. :Chinscratch:
...just some thoughts.. :smile:
Quoteone thing I have thought about is the cross as a symbol of sincerity and graphic importance.. a symbol of God's forgiveness and reaching out which is strong enough to pierce every psyche`
I guess I think wandering from God is a psychosis... now that I think about it! And what else (but the cross) would work? able to transform/reconcile all.. :Chinscratch:
...just some thoughts.. :smile:
Wonderful thoughts :o)
Dajomaco said
"10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."
When the real truth of this verse was revealed to me.
The last thing I wanted to see was sin.
Not only Sin in my life But especially sin in a brother or sisters life.
May I encourage you by mentioning Paul's victorious statement; "that where sin abounded, grace much more abounded" (Romans 5:20).
The first 'abounded' in relation to sin means 'to superabound' and the second 'abound' in relation to grace is a completely different word, which means 'to abound exceedingly much more'. So, even when it seems that sin abounds (in ourselves or others) we can be more confident that the grace of God is working (often behind the scenes) exceedingly much more..
The best biblical example of this grace can be drawn from the verse you referred to in James 2, "For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."
Like James, I think many pick out murder and adultery as the two ugliest transgressions. And yet, we also know that King David committed both of these. In a most gruesome, deliberate way, too. (1 and 2 Samuel). I mean, to qualify it, imagine the outcry if a US President stole the wife of a decorated 5 star general, made her pregnant, conspired to have the general killed on the battle field and then took the wife to be his own. David did the equivalent to Uriah with Bathsheba.
He was punished for it, although it took Samuel to get David to admit he had even done it. He lost the child, which was with Bathsheba from his adultery.
Yet, and this is a really big 'yet', although David had many wives, it was from Bathsheba's next union with David that we trace the human lineage of Jesus our Saviour.
As if to highlight this confounding fact, Mathew, in the opening passage of the NT, when listing the genealogy of Christ, refers to Bathsheba as 'her who had been the wife of Uriah.' It's like he wanted people to know the 'neighborhood' Christ came from.
Perhaps, even more than that, Jesus, the God of all, is called both the root and the offspring of David (rev 22:10). And it is David's throne that Christ sits upon (2 Samuel 7:13-16)..
It is an affront to the religious mind. But is hard to ignore; that Christ arriving into this world and into our lives came despite his human origins being sourced in such extreme acts of sin..
So, when I think of the heaviness of sin, I also think of the much more exceeding heaviness of grace.
Maybe that is partly what James had in mind too, when he said, a little further down the page in 2: 13, that 'mercy triumphs over judgement..'
I can understand why we call this grace 'amazing'.
Quote from: onesimus on September 23, 2014, 04:47:06 AM
Dajomaco said
"10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."
When the real truth of this verse was revealed to me.
The last thing I wanted to see was sin.
Not only Sin in my life But especially sin in a brother or sisters life.
May I encourage you by mentioning Paul's victorious statement; "that where sin abounded, grace much more abounded" (Romans 5:20).
The first 'abounded' in relation to sin means 'to superabound' and the second 'abound' in relation to grace is a completely different word, which means 'to abound exceedingly much more'. So, even when it seems that sin abounds (in ourselves or others) we can be more confident that the grace of God is working (often behind the scenes) exceedingly much more..
The best biblical example of this grace can be drawn from the verse you referred to in James 2, "For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."
Like James, I think many pick out murder and adultery as the two ugliest transgressions. And yet, we also know that King David committed both of these. In a most gruesome, deliberate way, too. (1 and 2 Samuel). I mean, to qualify it, imagine the outcry if a US President stole the wife of a decorated 5 star general, made her pregnant, conspired to have the general killed on the battle field and then took the wife to be his own. David did the equivalent to Uriah with Bathsheba.
He was punished for it, although it took Samuel to get David to admit he had even done it. He lost the child, which was with Bathsheba from his adultery.
Yet, and this is a really big 'yet', although David had many wives, it was from Bathsheba's next union with David that we trace the human lineage of Jesus our Saviour.
As if to highlight this confounding fact, Mathew, in the opening passage of the NT, when listing the genealogy of Christ, refers to Bathsheba as 'her who had been the wife of Uriah.' It's like he wanted people to know the 'neighborhood' Christ came from.
Perhaps, even more than that, Jesus, the God of all, is called both the root and the offspring of David (rev 22:10). And it is David's throne that Christ sits upon (2 Samuel 7:13-16)..
It is an affront to the religious mind. But is hard to ignore; that Christ arriving into this world and into our lives came despite his human origins being sourced in such extreme acts of sin..
So, when I think of the heaviness of sin, I also think of the much more exceeding heaviness of grace.
Maybe that is partly what James had in mind too, when he said, a little further down the page in 2: 13, that 'mercy triumphs over judgement..'
I can understand why we call this grace 'amazing'.
See, according to Paul, Grace chastens God's people to abandon ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12). That's something the Christian church doesn't like to talk about. That's the kind of Grace Paul was teaching that superabounds.
Good, interesting thoughts, Seth!!
QuotePerhaps, even more than that, Jesus, the God of all, is called both the root and the offspring of David (rev 22:10). And it is David's throne that Christ sits upon (2 Samuel 7:13-16)..
It is an affront to the religious mind. But is hard to ignore; that Christ arriving into this world and into our lives came despite his human origins being sourced in such extreme acts of sin..
So, when I think of the heaviness of sin, I also think of the much more exceeding heaviness of grace.
Maybe that is partly what James had in mind too, when he said, a little further down the page in 2: 13, that 'mercy triumphs over judgement..'
I can understand why we call this grace 'amazing'.
I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ was a WHOLE lot more than Just dying on a cross
HE came in the fullness of times [ For me it was to open the seals ] being the Son of Man and Being also the Son of God , making him Lord/ master of the dead and Living
man being dead and God alive , that reconciliation noun
1.
the restoration of friendly relations.
"his reconciliation with your uncle"
synonyms: reuniting, reunion, bringing together (again), conciliation, reconcilement, rapprochement, fence-mending; More
2.
the action of making one view or belief compatible with another.
in Him the Law of death was fulfilled
Jesus was conceived of Holy Spirit showing us this is how we would also come , born from above to the earth , making heaven come down ,
Just as it says Jerusalem comes down , no one ascended , in other words no one could ever go up , but it was God who come down , that word stooped , to save mankind , so those what were captive by death and prison that hold [slaves whom wages of sin was death ] , could go free
I have watched a program to where when a slave was set free , he had no clue how to be free , So he still depended on his master , if that Master was a good one , to help him establish himself , before he tried owning anything or having anything to produce and make more
Kind of like What we see Jesus has done in these verses
What is His own with usury and this parable message , they all worked for the same wage saved from death , but wanted or expected more
Like the elder son mentality , was with His father all along and everything was his to use and be inherited, so free , but expected more , because he did not know what he had in this freedom , he was waiting for more in the end or another time/ age ?
Matt 20
8But when it was evening, the owner of the vineyard said to his custodian,
'Call the laborers and give them their wages, and start from the last ones up to the first ones.'
9And those of the 11th hour came and they received a denarius each.
10And when the first ones came they had hoped that they would receive more, and they received a denarius each also.
11And when they received it, they complained to the lord of the estate.
12And they were saying, 'These last ones have worked one hour and
you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.'
13But he answered and said to one of them,
'My friend, I do no evil to you. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?' 14Take yours and go. But I wish to give to this last group even as to you.
15O
r is it illegal for me to do whatever I want to do with my own? Is your eye evil because I am good?' 16So the last will be first and the first last, for the called are many and the chosen ones are few."17But Yeshua was prepared to go up to Jerusalem and he took aside his twelve disciples privately on the road and he said to them:
18"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and The Son of Man will be delivered to the Chief Priests and to the Scribes and they will condemn him to death.
19And they will deliver him to Gentiles, and they will mock him, and they will scourge him, and they will crucify him, and the third day he will arise."
...8Therefore it says, "
WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
So by this scripture we KNOW He was the only one ascending after the Cross and 3 days to Raise His Body / church up from the earth and those
graves opened and set free , and those gifts are from Him , Holy Spirit how we use them are our joy or loss , whatever the slaves to sin who
has been set free From the Master can do as grace a thankful heart and labor in Love to a debt we could never repay , but appreciate as Blessed
Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2014, 04:51:38 AM
Quote from: onesimus on September 23, 2014, 04:47:06 AM
Dajomaco said
"10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."
When the real truth of this verse was revealed to me.
The last thing I wanted to see was sin.
Not only Sin in my life But especially sin in a brother or sisters life.
May I encourage you by mentioning Paul's victorious statement; "that where sin abounded, grace much more abounded" (Romans 5:20).
The first 'abounded' in relation to sin means 'to superabound' and the second 'abound' in relation to grace is a completely different word, which means 'to abound exceedingly much more'. So, even when it seems that sin abounds (in ourselves or others) we can be more confident that the grace of God is working (often behind the scenes) exceedingly much more..
The best biblical example of this grace can be drawn from the verse you referred to in James 2, "For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."
Like James, I think many pick out murder and adultery as the two ugliest transgressions. And yet, we also know that King David committed both of these. In a most gruesome, deliberate way, too. (1 and 2 Samuel). I mean, to qualify it, imagine the outcry if a US President stole the wife of a decorated 5 star general, made her pregnant, conspired to have the general killed on the battle field and then took the wife to be his own. David did the equivalent to Uriah with Bathsheba.
He was punished for it, although it took Samuel to get David to admit he had even done it. He lost the child, which was with Bathsheba from his adultery.
Yet, and this is a really big 'yet', although David had many wives, it was from Bathsheba's next union with David that we trace the human lineage of Jesus our Saviour.
As if to highlight this confounding fact, Mathew, in the opening passage of the NT, when listing the genealogy of Christ, refers to Bathsheba as 'her who had been the wife of Uriah.' It's like he wanted people to know the 'neighborhood' Christ came from.
Perhaps, even more than that, Jesus, the God of all, is called both the root and the offspring of David (rev 22:10). And it is David's throne that Christ sits upon (2 Samuel 7:13-16)..
It is an affront to the religious mind. But is hard to ignore; that Christ arriving into this world and into our lives came despite his human origins being sourced in such extreme acts of sin..
So, when I think of the heaviness of sin, I also think of the much more exceeding heaviness of grace.
Maybe that is partly what James had in mind too, when he said, a little further down the page in 2: 13, that 'mercy triumphs over judgement..'
I can understand why we call this grace 'amazing'.
See, according to Paul, Grace chastens God's people to abandon ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12). That's something the Christian church doesn't like to talk about. That's the kind of Grace Paul was teaching that superabounds.
Onesimos said
So, when I think of the heaviness of sin, I also think of the much more exceeding heaviness of grace.
Maybe that is partly what James had in mind too, when he said, a little further down the page in 2: 13, that 'mercy triumphs over judgement..'
I can understand why we call this grace 'amazing'.
The spirit of grace was truly abounding when early believers were selling all of their possessions and giving them to the apostles.
It just would not be appropriated to tell them that coveting is a sin.
It would not be appropriate to warn Steven that coward ness is a sin.
If there is a spiritual gift of teaching then let the Spirit led Teach.
If there is spiritual gift of preaching then let the Spirit led Preach.
There's a difference between warning someone whose fruit doesn't require warning, and warning someone whose fruit DOES require it. For example, there is a big difference between Stephen being filled by the Holy Spirit and preaching the Gospel unto death
....and....
The man in the book of Corinthians who was sleeping with his father's wife and was cast out of the company for destruction of the flesh by Satan so that his spirit could be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5). If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.
Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2014, 07:29:16 PM
There's a difference between warning someone whose fruit doesn't require warning, and warning someone whose fruit DOES require it. For example, there is a big difference between Stephen being filled by the Holy Spirit and preaching the Gospel unto death
....and....
The man in the book of Corinthians who was sleeping with his father's wife and was cast out of the company for destruction of the flesh by Satan so that his spirit could be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5). If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.
I agree
As the holy spirit leads us to rightly use the word of God.
To strengthen and encourage the Church.
I find doctrine weakens and discourages the Church.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 23, 2014, 10:56:12 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2014, 07:29:16 PM
There's a difference between warning someone whose fruit doesn't require warning, and warning someone whose fruit DOES require it. For example, there is a big difference between Stephen being filled by the Holy Spirit and preaching the Gospel unto death
....and....
The man in the book of Corinthians who was sleeping with his father's wife and was cast out of the company for destruction of the flesh by Satan so that his spirit could be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5). If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.
I agree
As the holy spirit leads us to rightly use the word of God.
To strengthen and encourage the Church.
I find doctrine weakens and discourages the Church.
A doctrine is nothing more than a teaching. If I say the Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected 3 days later, that is a doctrine that I believe. how would that weaken and discourage the church?
See, according to Paul, Grace chastens God's people to abandon ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12). That's something the Christian church doesn't like to talk about. That's the kind of Grace Paul was teaching that superabounds.
Whose Christian church doesn't like to talk about this?
Have you met these people, did the spirit want you to warn them.
A doctrine is nothing more than a teaching.
Then teach according to the students need.
Or build a doctrine that discourages
Quote from: dajomaco on September 24, 2014, 01:42:28 AM
See, according to Paul, Grace chastens God's people to abandon ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12). That's something the Christian church doesn't like to talk about. That's the kind of Grace Paul was teaching that superabounds.
Whose Christian church doesn't like to talk about this?
Have you met these people, did the spirit want you to warn them.
The Christian church at large. Yes, I have met them as I used to be one. I used to think that Grace had nothing to do with how God himself instills morality through chastening. I was part of a church that, therefore, taught a mixture of Law and Grace, Grace for forgiveness, Law for morality. That's the predominant teaching in Christianity.
So much confusion that Titus 2:11-12 could solve in an instant. But it's almost miraculously invisible to the Law+Grace crowd. I NEVER even knew the scripture existed until I started to come out of my church.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 24, 2014, 01:42:28 AMA doctrine is nothing more than a teaching.
Then teach according to the students need.
Or build a doctrine that discourages
I don't need to build doctrine. I need to understand what doctrine was already built in the scripture for me.
Yes the foundation of Jesus
He gave himself ,
to cleanse for himself
a people for His own possession.
Glory.
dajomaco, I, me, personally do not understand all of what you have said, or explained, would you offer more? Thanks
Quote from: Seth on September 24, 2014, 01:54:05 AM
So much confusion that Titus 2:11-12 could solve in an instant. But it's almost miraculously invisible to the Law+Grace crowd. I NEVER even knew the scripture existed until I started to come out of my church.
Titus 2 \: 11-12
11For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12It teaching us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,..
There are different words for grace in the bible. This one in Titus means
favor, disposed to, inclined towards, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit. That which affords joy, pleasure, delight. It is used preeminently to speak of Lord's favor –
freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them"). This grace is God freely extending Himself, reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless and be near them. If this is how grace 'chastens', then may I have more!
When we know/experience such extraordinary, freely-given favor and kindness, how can we not deny ungodliness?
The important thing is that in this scripture, as in life, his grace comes first. When we know it deeply we reap its benefits (in life), as Paul describes here.
It's not just that we realize grace, but God's grace chastens us, the word for teaching is paiduo, or chasten. The very foundation of salvation from sin is that it is not of yourselves but God's work. Therefore, growing in Godliness is not the result of man changing himself as a result of goodwill to the gospel, but of the Spirit actively changing the heart from within, spiritually. It is not of ourselves.
That is why the book of Hebrews says do not despise the chastening of The Lord, for afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness. It's not our goodwill realizations that change us, but the chastening of The Lord, the Spirit within. In my opinion, if it is any other way, then salvation from sin, and obedience to God, is of ourselves and not of Him.
Quote from: Seth on September 24, 2014, 08:15:30 AM
The very foundation of salvation from sin is that it is not of yourselves but God's work.
Love it! :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 24, 2014, 04:09:17 AM
dajomaco, I, me, personally do not understand all of what you have said, or explained, would you offer more? Thanks
He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for Himself a people for His own possession, eager to do good works.
If I am free to do the good work of Loving my neighbor.
Weather I see their fruit as good or bad.
My response is the same to share and encourage them in the Grace of God
Jesus will produce the fruit through us.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 24, 2014, 09:04:24 PM
My response is the same to share and encourage them in the Grace of God
Jesus will produce the fruit through us.
I agree with that.
Titus 3
3
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy
he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2014, 07:29:16 PM
There's a difference between warning someone whose fruit doesn't require warning, and warning someone whose fruit DOES require it. For example, there is a big difference between Stephen being filled by the Holy Spirit and preaching the Gospel unto death
....and....
The man in the book of Corinthians who was sleeping with his father's wife and was cast out of the company for destruction of the flesh by Satan so that his spirit could be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5). If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.
If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.
Paul is not warning a buddy who was having an affair.
He was admonishing the church for being so ridicules as to
BRAG about the sexual immorality that was going on in this Church.
Paul was later concerned with restoring this brother to Grace.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 24, 2014, 09:23:52 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2014, 07:29:16 PM
There's a difference between warning someone whose fruit doesn't require warning, and warning someone whose fruit DOES require it. For example, there is a big difference between Stephen being filled by the Holy Spirit and preaching the Gospel unto death
....and....
The man in the book of Corinthians who was sleeping with his father's wife and was cast out of the company for destruction of the flesh by Satan so that his spirit could be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5). If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.
If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.
Paul is not warning a buddy who was having an affair.
He was admonishing the church for being so ridicules as to
BRAG about the sexual immorality that was going on in this Church.
Paul was later concerned with restoring this brother to Grace.
What I was saying is in response to how you told us we shouldn't point out another brother's sin. If I misunderstood you on that, I apologize, but if not, I think it is absolutely appropriate for us to help eachother in that way.
1 Cor 5:5
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
If I had a friend in the church who was sleeping with his father's wife, I ABSOLUTELY would warn him about it in all humility. And I hope he would do the same for me, and that in humility I could accept the admonition.
deaden therefore your body members. as respects fornication....very good example of what the spirit does. Jezebel spirit teaches
fornication/sexual immorality...I will throw her in a sick bed..and strike her children with death,unless they repent.....
if your eye makes you stumble,pluck it out[keep looking at a wman has already committed adultery in the heart]
now,we also have Jesus words...let he who is without sin cast the first stone..in the matter of a woman caught in the act of
adultery. Let his rebuke be sufficient for all..both those who cast a stone and those who would boast of sin.
If the guy who was cast out of the company of saints to Satan, and he had a friend who.didn't warn him, then the friend did not love him. It's not about throwing stones.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 24, 2014, 09:04:24 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 24, 2014, 04:09:17 AM
dajomaco, I, me, personally do not understand all of what you have said, or explained, would you offer more? Thanks
He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for Himself a people for His own possession, eager to do good works.
If I am free to do the good work of Loving my neighbor.
Weather I see their fruit as good or bad.
My response is the same to share and encourage them in the Grace of God
Jesus will produce the fruit through us.
:thumbsup: Thanks
Seth,I see the casting of stones as the LAW judgement..without mercy....to me Grace is long-suffering in allowing room for
repentance...whereas under the law a tresspasser was put to death without mercy[grace long-suffering unto repentance]
for God is not slack as some think...but is long-suffering..wanting all to come to repentance,that none perish......
Jesus wrote about 'tolerating that Jezebel" and the results unless they repent...He stated to not tolerate it. Jesus said,
'I rebuke those I love"
Grace per the Holy spirit doesn't burden,but there are a few necessary things.....
I see what you are saying. :thumbsup: I think I misunderstood it.
Much of this talk about this sort of "live and let live" approach works fine for a forum, unless it becomes the sin of verbal abuse. But sexual sin would have no affect here because we don't all live together and share everything like the early church did. I used to live on a Christian commune when I was very young. We were all happy and it grew to 150 people and it really worked for years.
Then, the leader and founder began to show signs of abuse of power, and eventually had an affair with one of the member's wives. He was confronted about it and refused to repent. If he had repented, the situation would have been resolved through love and longsuffering. But his refusal meant that everyone left the commune and lived in town.
That sin and lack of repentance was like a wildfire that came and consumed and burned the whole fellowship to the ground, and everyone suffered for it, especially the children who had considered the place our home and had friendships with eachother. Sin is definitely not something to take lightly. It can root out and destroy everything you worked for.
That's why I always laugh when people tell us UR believers that we are saying "you can live how you want and still be saved." People who say that may not have yet experienced the dire consequences that sin can have.
:thumbsup: there's a differnce between necessary things as instructed by the Holy spirit[which are NOT burdensome] and the doctrines
and teachings of the pharisee/sadduceee[religious spirit usurper] in the churches with all their do this don't do that condemnatory
judgement if you don't dance to thiertune.
taking your Father's wife can also mean trying to lead about a sister/or church as your own instead of the rightful husband......
the leader of the commune you were in tried to do just that with his abuse of power.......betrothed to Christ promised.. to God
not your pastor/leader. thank goodness that his sheep reckognized His voice..and did not follow another in the matter.many
have to their harm.
Paul continously warned with tears..for three years of this type who would rise up and come from within...that would not treat
the flock with tenderness. a few years ago there was on tv this religious group of such men...that had all kinds of strict
regulations/dresses to the ankle,hair covered..etc..but it didn't stop them from lusting after the 13-18 year old sisters in the
congregation and taking how ever many they wanted for thier wives..for the lust of thier flesh[remind you of anyone? did not
keep their proper positions ] Nasty old lecherous men..who although they ruled oppressively over the women to the extent they did
in manner of dress etc of modesty..it held no power to stem their lust. Same thing with the muslims,as far as I am concerned......
a wrist or face or ankle of a woman exposed to your eyes and you rape her..but she is the one who is evil. Heaven forbid they
see where the evil really dwells.
and Seth,imo when they say..'you can live how you want and still be saved" what they really mean is 'you don't live how we think
you should"...and we are free in Christ from their authority...we are under our rightful husbands authority..not their's.....
a wife doesn't submit herself to every man that comes along..she submits herself to her husband only.....unless she is a babylon
who fornicates with the kings of the earth. godless men who secreatly slipped in amng you..who change the grace of our god into
a license for immorality and denyJesus Christ our only saviour and Lord..........they would have you believe your salvation depended
on them!lol!
when a person in repentance turns away from this world..seeking God..and are binded up with these types...seven spirits more
wicked have come..and they are twice the child of hell. See His eyes like a flame and write to the seven angels of the churches..as
He inspects the angels and councels/rebukes/commends..........Ephesus..left your first love..and false-apostles
Smyrna...synagogue of satn, Pergamum.....teachings of Balaam,idoltry,sexual immorality,teaching of nicolaitins........
Thyatira....Jezebel,sexual immoralityand idolatry...Sardis....spiritualdeath..name blotted out of book of Life........Philadelphia....
door shut[foolish virgins]...Ladecia...spewed outof His mouth..wretched..pitiful blind naked shame
these things are overcome by the spirit of Christ..if not..you are two-fold the child of hell...for those that have traversed land and sea
to make you their proselyte..have made you such.
Quote from: sheila on September 25, 2014, 12:28:14 AM
:thumbsup: there's a differnce between necessary things as instructed by the Holy spirit[which are NOT burdensome] and the doctrines
and teachings of the pharisee/sadduceee[religious spirit usurper] in the churches with all their do this don't do that condemnatory
judgement if you don't dance to thiertune.
taking your Father's wife can also mean trying to lead about a sister/or church as your own instead of the rightful husband......
the leader of the commune you were in tried to do just that with his abuse of power.......betrothed to Christ promised.. to God
not your pastor/leader. thank goodness that his sheep reckognized His voice..and did not follow another in the matter.many
have to their harm.
---
that had all kinds of strict
regulations/dresses to the ankle,hair covered..etc..but it didn't stop them from lusting after the 13-18 year old sisters in the
congregation and taking how ever many they wanted for thier wives..for the lust of thier flesh
Yes, it definitely takes wisdom to tell what is legalism and what truly is sin. If we understand that sin is lawlessness, and we know that Jesus has but two commandments:
"believe in Christ and love eachother" I think the definition of lawlessness just got alot narrower than ankle length dresses and cigarettes, as I think we could both agree. Should women be attending a bible study in string bikinis, though, when everyone else is dressed modestly? I don't think so. Because that is not very loving to the sister who has a husband who may be tested by that. Yes, that's a purposefully absurd example, but just to show that it takes a balance and an understanding of what the commandments actually are, and why they are not grievous or heavy, but Christ has a light yoke. I don't think it's wrong to set standards, but I do think it is wrong to invent rules which have nothing to do with what Christ wants from the church. These things should be handled with care and wisdom, and always with the understanding of what Christ wants from us in terms of fruit. It should always be done in a spirit of love and NOT a spirit of power.
I had a friend who used to say 'take the forest out of your own eye before you take the lumber yard out of mine', lol..
If you can excuse a personal testimony for a moment just because it was on my heart this morning and may have little to do with this discussion..A revelation once came to me as I was allowing the spirit to teach me how not to judge myself over what I saw as my many shortcomings (sins).
The picture that came to me at that time was that of a brain surgeon, who had himself got a brain tumor. And because he knew all about tumors and brain surgery he thought he could operate on himself and remove the tumor. I was like this surgeon. I was skilled in the knowledge of 'sin' and knew the verses about 'sin' and all the instructions and exhortations about overcoming 'sin'. I was very well qualified. And my judging myself was like this brain surgeon, standing in front of the mirror, trying to remove his own tumor... No matter how much that surgeon knew about tumors and what should be done to remove them, eventually, he still had to lay down on a table, go to sleep, and trust someone else do all the work..
Admittedly, my own language of self criticism and self judgement was quite extreme. My upbringing afforded a lot of it - without needing too much detail. Just to say there had been a lot of wounding and 'perceived' rejection by significant people in my life, where I felt I was misunderstood and judged etc. For me, this wounding gave me a skewered filter by which I saw others and the world, and God. But, it especially skewered my view of me. I'm blessed that over many years this filter has been renewed by his constant loving kindness. These days, one could easily accuse me of not seeing sin at all, lol...but it's just that I have a new language..Praise him for his ability to do for us what we are unable to do for ourselves..
love your testimony! I,too, had this constant accusing voice in my head....that His love and patience had to still............
.......feeling condemned and hated for sin is not how anyone knows......BY THIS ALL MEN WILL KNOW THAT YOU ARE
MY DISCIPLES...IF YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER. As I have loved you,so you must love one another..
I will not always find fault..for then even the spirit would fail before me........
It's interesting to read these testimonies because it helps see the perspective and I think they actually fit together pretty well. I don't think we should be hard on ourselves or each other. On the other hand, I think the existence of sin in the world is pretty clear and we should at least be watchful.
I just read over at Huffington post..that the Iranian kids that danced to 'Happy' the women unveiled..got 6 months jail time and
91 lashes..for offending PUBLIC CHASTITY...suspended for 3 years..but if the reoffend they'll get it.
...thing is..a lot of people have their ownideas of what's a sin...
Yeah, like how what they just did was a sin. LOVE cannot be absent.
Quote from: sheila on September 25, 2014, 05:31:38 AM
I just read over at Huffington post..that the Iranian kids that danced to 'Happy' the women unveiled..got 6 months jail time and
91 lashes..for offending PUBLIC CHASTITY...suspended for 3 years..but if the reoffend they'll get it.
...thing is..a lot of people have their ownideas of what's a sin...
I'm aghast and bowled over that you spend a moment at Huffington post. Just amazed.
Quote from: sheila on September 25, 2014, 05:31:38 AM
I just read over at Huffington post..that the Iranian kids that danced to 'Happy' the women unveiled..got 6 months jail time and
91 lashes..for offending PUBLIC CHASTITY...suspended for 3 years..but if the reoffend they'll get it.
...thing is..a lot of people have their ownideas of what's a sin...
91 lashes for dancing seems a bit steep...I would've thought 60 more reasonable :rolllol:
How blessed to be living in a very imperfect democracy..
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2014, 06:33:06 AM
Quote from: sheila on September 25, 2014, 05:31:38 AM
I just read over at Huffington post..that the Iranian kids that danced to 'Happy' the women unveiled..got 6 months jail time and
91 lashes..for offending PUBLIC CHASTITY...suspended for 3 years..but if the reoffend they'll get it.
...thing is..a lot of people have their ownideas of what's a sin...
I'm aghast and bowled over that you spend a moment at Huffington post. Just amazed.
Why so snarky Micah ? Its a credible news site ?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/18/iranians-sentenced-happy-pharrell_n_5842532.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/18/iranians-sentenced-happy-pharrell_n_5842532.html)
I Do not think we realize just how blessed we truly are
8Love never fails; for prophecies shall cease, tongues shall be silenced and knowledge will be nothing;
9For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10But when perfection shall come, then that which is partial shall be nothing.
11When I was a child, I was speaking as a child, I was led as a child,
I was thinking as a child, but when I became a man, I ceased these childish things.
12Now we see as in a mirror, in an allegory, but then face-to-face.
Now I know partially, but then I shall know as I am known.
13For there are these three things that endure:
Faith, Hope and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.
Quote from: rosered12Now we see as in a mirror, in an allegory, but then face-to-face.
Now I know partially, but then I shall know as I am known.
13For there are these three things that endure:
Faith, Hope and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.
:thumbsup:
Wherever we find love absent, we find sin present.
Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2014, 10:34:28 PM
Quote from: rosered12Now we see as in a mirror, in an allegory, but then face-to-face.
Now I know partially, but then I shall know as I am known.
13For there are these three things that endure:
Faith, Hope and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.
:thumbsup:
Wherever we find love absent, we find sin present.
:thumbsup:
and when we speak the truth without love it loses its power to set free :)
Seth Says
What I was saying is in response to how you told us we shouldn't point out another brother's sin. If I misunderstood you on that, I apologize, but if not, I think it is absolutely appropriate for us to help eachother in that way.
I refuse to look for sin.
I do not refuse to see sin.
When I refuse to look for sin .
I have to be shown by the Holy Spirit , a particular Sin.
He can then instruct me how respond or what to say.
Until then I am like Sargent Shultz.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 26, 2014, 10:22:55 PM
Seth Says
What I was saying is in response to how you told us we shouldn't point out another brother's sin. If I misunderstood you on that, I apologize, but if not, I think it is absolutely appropriate for us to help eachother in that way.
I refuse to look for sin.
I do not refuse to see sin.
When I refuse to look for sin .
I have to be shown by the Holy Spirit , a particular Sin.
He can then instruct me how respond or what to say.
Until then I am like Sargent Shultz.
Edit: missed the "not" and so misrepresented Dajomaco. My apologies. :friendstu:
So if you are really interested in protecting The Children.
Stop refusing to see what I am saying
When theology meets practical life, that's when the rubber meets the road.
I do not refuse to see Sin
I refuse to act a pond what I see until led by the spirit of God.
The only protection that the Children have is the Holy Spirit.
You're right. I didn't see the "not". That happens sometimes. I will edit my post to reflect so as not to misrepresent what you said.
Our prisons are full of the Children of practical men.
Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all. That's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin. And that is where theology and practicality do not mix, since what is "wrong" is also "missing the mark." That is where I believe UR can go sideways and be a weak witness for truth.
But I do appreciate what you are saying about not LOOKING for sin, as in not constantly judging others to try to find weaknesses. If that is what you mean, I do agree with that. But I do believe it is important to be watchful of ourselves because a little leaven can leaven the whole lump, or as Christ said, cut out your eye if it "offends." And if we say that our eye does NEVER offend, we cannot obey Christ, for we all have sin, and if we say we don't, well, you know... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2014, 11:57:22 PM
I believe UR can go sideways and be a weak witness for truth.
I agree.
I think picking and condemning is not the same as contending for sound doctrine, as Paul told us to do; and to speak the truth in love.
Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2014, 11:57:22 PM
Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all. That's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin. And that is where theology and practicality do not mix, since what is "wrong" is also "missing the mark." That is where I believe UR can go sideways and be a weak witness for truth.
But I do appreciate what you are saying about not LOOKING for sin, as in not constantly judging others to try to find weaknesses. If that is what you mean, I do agree with that. But I do believe it is important to be watchful of ourselves because a little leaven can leaven the whole lump, or as Christ said, cut out your eye if it "offends." And if we say that our eye does NEVER offend, we cannot obey Christ, for we all have sin, and if we say we don't, well, you know... :HeartThrob:
Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all.
Sin has been dealt with once and for all.
That's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin.
Sin Is Sin to make it more than that is.Is to further the myth that some sin is so bad it needs some form of torment to be dealt with properly.
And that is where theology and practicality do not mix, since what is "wrong" is also "missing the mark." That is where I believe UR can go sideways and be a weak witness for truth.
The truth about sin is that it has been forgiven.
Some sin has an extra layer of shame put on it.
The rapist knows they are evil and do not deserve forgiveness.
There is so much shame put on this particular sin that the victim is often ashamed.
This cycle of shame gives power to this sin.
It was so easy to deal with the different sin categories when I knew
the real bad sinners were going to hell.
But I do appreciate what you are saying about not LOOKING for sin, as in not constantly judging others to try to find weaknesses. If that is what you mean, I do agree with that. But I do believe it is important to be watchful of ourselves because a little leaven can leaven the whole lump, or as Christ said, cut out your eye if it "offends." And if we say that our eye does NEVER offend, we cannot obey Christ, for we all have sin, and if we say we don't, well, you know... :HeartThrob:
[/quote]
I believe the leaven is the different levels of sin.
Some sin is just a little more wrong than others and needs slightly more than forgiveness.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 27, 2014, 10:42:07 PM
Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all.
Sin has been dealt with once and for all.
Yes, this is a common phraseology in UR, but the term "dealt with" is pretty vague to me. That could mean anything. What does "dealt with" mean?
QuoteThat's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin.
Sin Is Sin to make it more than that is.Is to further the myth that some sin is so bad it needs some form of torment to be dealt with properly.
Yes, sin
is sin. :dontknow:
QuoteThe truth about sin is that it has been forgiven.
Some sin has an extra layer of shame put on it.
The rapist knows they are evil and do not deserve forgiveness.
There is so much shame put on this particular sin that the victim is often ashamed.
This cycle of shame gives power to this sin.
It was so easy to deal with the different sin categories when I knew
the real bad sinners were going to hell.
Should the rapist feel no shame in raping a woman? When you do terrible things and feel no shame, doesn't that make one a sociopath?
QuoteI believe the leaven is the different levels of sin.
Some sin is just a little more wrong than others and needs slightly more than forgiveness.
Why would any sin be be more wrong than another, if sin has been "dealt with" already? If it's been dealt with, then nothing more needs to be done, right?
Quote from: Seth on September 27, 2014, 10:50:56 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on September 27, 2014, 10:42:07 PM
Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all.
Sin has been dealt with once and for all.
Yes, this is a common phraseology in UR, but the term "dealt with" is pretty vague to me. That could mean anything. What does "dealt with" mean?
Jesus knows the answer.
QuoteThat's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin.
Sin Is Sin to make it more than that is.Is to further the myth that some sin is so bad it needs some form of torment to be dealt with properly.
Yes, sin is sin. :dontknow:
QuoteThe truth about sin is that it has been forgiven.
Some sin has an extra layer of shame put on it.
The rapist knows they are evil and do not deserve forgiveness.
There is so much shame put on this particular sin that the victim is often ashamed.
This cycle of shame gives power to this sin.
It was so easy to deal with the different sin categories when I knew
the real bad sinners were going to hell.
Should the rapist feel no shame in raping a woman? When you do terrible things and feel no shame, doesn't that make one a sociopath?
The idea that if a rapist only felt more shame he wouldn't rape.
Is the idea that empowers rapist.
If more shame was the answer to sin don't you think God would have ....
QuoteI believe the leaven is the different levels of sin.
Some sin is just a little more wrong than others and needs slightly more than forgiveness.
Why would any sin be be more wrong than another, if sin has been "dealt with" already? If it's been dealt with, then nothing more needs to be done, right?
I assume you are being rhetorical.
I am not .
Please tell me what more needs to be done.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 27, 2014, 11:08:07 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 27, 2014, 10:50:56 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on September 27, 2014, 10:42:07 PM
Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all.
Sin has been dealt with once and for all.
Yes, this is a common phraseology in UR, but the term "dealt with" is pretty vague to me. That could mean anything. What does "dealt with" mean?
Jesus knows the answer.
QuoteThat's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin.
Sin Is Sin to make it more than that is.Is to further the myth that some sin is so bad it needs some form of torment to be dealt with properly.
Yes, sin is sin. :dontknow:
QuoteThe truth about sin is that it has been forgiven.
Some sin has an extra layer of shame put on it.
The rapist knows they are evil and do not deserve forgiveness.
There is so much shame put on this particular sin that the victim is often ashamed.
This cycle of shame gives power to this sin.
It was so easy to deal with the different sin categories when I knew
the real bad sinners were going to hell.
Should the rapist feel no shame in raping a woman? When you do terrible things and feel no shame, doesn't that make one a sociopath?
The idea that if a rapist only felt more shame he wouldn't rape.
Is the idea that empowers rapist.
If more shame was the answer to sin don't you think God would have ....
QuoteI believe the leaven is the different levels of sin.
Some sin is just a little more wrong than others and needs slightly more than forgiveness.
Why would any sin be be more wrong than another, if sin has been "dealt with" already? If it's been dealt with, then nothing more needs to be done, right?
I assume you are being rhetorical.
I am not .
Please tell me what more needs to be done.
Shame causes repentance (The Law was a school master). Receiving the Spirit causes salvation. Lack of shame causes pride. God resists the proud.
1 john 5:16 If any one may see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and He shall give to him life to those sinning not unto death; there is sin to death, not concerning it do I speak that he may beseech;
17 all unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not unto death.
We have redemption in Him through His blood,
the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Sin dealt with blood
Amen
"in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7)
Quote from: dajomaco on September 28, 2014, 07:51:05 PM
We have redemption in Him through His blood,
the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Sin dealt with blood
This is wonderful Dajomaco
Made me think real hard
why does blood deal with sin in the first place
For which makes sense in this , all the innocent blood spilled in the earth cries out to God
Jesus mentions this very thing Matthew 23:35 CEB
Therefore, upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been poured out on the earth, from the blood of that righteous man Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Do you see how this generation would have all the BLOOD from way back than to this time upon them to see the wrath of God ,
its the same generation of Babylon on all whom
still ask for blood sacrifices for sin !!
before Jesus shed His own Blood and cried out to God , and DID NOT ask for vengeance , but said forgive them Father because they don't know what they are doing !!!
This is the grace of God give to you from the perfect ''gift'' of innocent blood .
there is no more sacrifice for sins , it would still be the same abomination , thing hated of God of keep on shedding of innocent blood as a sacrifice for sins , before the Lord whom would have never asked for this in the first place committing Idolatry
Jerusalem's Fall Confirmed
...34"But they put their detestable things in the house
which is called by My name, to defile it. 35"They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
HE ASKS OBEDIENCE That is our sacrifice to Him Jesus proved its possible all the way to the cross and beyond
Quote from: Tom on September 28, 2014, 09:11:23 PM
Amen
"in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7)
Yes indeed Tom when the perfect come , there is no other thing that will do !! Hebrews 10 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10)
John the baptist came before Him to announce '' SEE/ Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world !!''
Amen
It's significant to me that Christ was sacrificed outside Jerusalem when I think about New Jerusalem. I believe that repentance is the signifier that the flesh is dead to the one repenting that he may enter the city and partake of the water of life. "Repent and be baptized" = be crucified outside the city, then enter the city for resurrection life.
This is what I believe Satan's role is in the day of the Lord, the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved.
Quote from: rosered on September 28, 2014, 09:34:11 PM
Quote from: Tom on September 28, 2014, 09:11:23 PM
Amen
"in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7)
Yes indeed Tom when the perfect come , there is no other thing that will do !! Hebrews 10 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10)
:iagree:
What else will do?
John the baptist came before Him to announce " SEE/ Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world !!"
1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Being born of God is how sin is dealt with. IMHO
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 02:09:34 AM
1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Being born of God is how sin is dealt with. IMHO
I hope we are all in agreement Seth that without the Lord Jesus Christ we can do nothing right?
Jesus forgives sin and destroys the works of Satan
And None could not have been born again with Him the SEED IS CHRIST ..
So its all about Jesus Christ He was the Lamb that had the power to open the seals the way truth and life , The Resurrection , His example His Word etc , etc , etc
I definitely agree. I never credit man for salvation. But I think there is an irony in some interpretations of UR that says if people have no shame about their sin, then suddenly they will stop sinning. To me, that credits man for salvation still. I give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God who gives each a measure of faith, and to each the Spirit.
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 02:33:13 AM
I definitely agree. I never credit man for salvation. But I think there is an irony in some interpretations of UR that says if people have no shame about their sin, then suddenly they will stop sinning. To me, that credits man for salvation still. I give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God who gives each a measure of faith, and to each the Spirit.
:thumbsup: So do I , though I do not dwell on sin , as some do , For me I believe the Lord lets those know how sin sick and lost they are before they come to their senses/ awake out of sleep , than the healing from the Lord and so forth , it is a process all must undergo , the more we understand in the Knowledge of God though Jesus Christ The more we know that UR is not a lie , I do not think we quit hungering and thirsting after His righteousness , Seth ,it becomes a desire burning in our hearts , He is the author and finisher of faith after all
2Peter 3
0But the day of THE LORD JEHOVAH comes as a thief in which the Heavens suddenly pass away,
but the elements being set on fire shall be destroyed and
The Earth and the works that are in it shall be discovered*.
11As therefore all these things are to be destroyed, it is right for you to be in your way of life as those who are holy and in the worship of God,
12While you expect and eagerly desire the coming of The Day of God in which the Heavens, being tested by fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements, when set on fire, shall melt. 13
But according to his promise, we look for The New Heavens and The New Earth, in which dwells righteousness.*14Therefore beloved, as you expect these things, take pains that you shall be found without spot and without defect before him in peace.
15A
nd you shall consider that the patience of THE LORD JEHOVAH is salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom that was given to him, 16
Just as in all of his letters he spoke about these things, in which are things difficult for the intellect, which those who are without teaching and unstable, pervert, as also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17Y
ou therefore, beloved, as you have known beforehand, guard your souls, lest you go after the deception of those who are without The Law and you fall from your own stability. 18
But grow in grace and in the knowledge of Our Lord and Our Savior, Yeshua The Messiah, and of God The Father, to whom the glory is now and always, even to the days of eternity. Amen.
:thumbsup:
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 04:22:47 AM
:thumbsup:
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.
I agree Seth The Holy Spirit and its power to remit /forgive or retain /hold to account sin and know all evil will be destroyed and its the Lord whom will make all things new and perfect /complete HOLY
...22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "
Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
God is righteous in all His ways ...
Seems semantics even in the UR camps are not in full agreement as of yet :sigh:
Quote from: rosered on September 29, 2014, 05:44:50 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 04:22:47 AM
:thumbsup:
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.
I agree Seth The Holy Spirit and its power to remit /forgive or retain /hold to account sin and know all evil will be destroyed and its the Lord whom will make all things new and perfect /complete HOLY
...22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
God is righteous in all His ways ...
Seems semantics even in the UR camps are not in full agreement as of yet :sigh:
Yes, I agree, both forgiveness and also: "For if you, by the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live." And, "They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
I see forgiveness of past sins as
stage 1, and actual salvation from sin as
stage 2 occurring by the washing and regeneration of the Spirit.
Amen! Followed by stage 3, the redemption of our bodies and the revelation of the sons of God at the end of the age. :o)
:2thumbs:
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 04:22:47 AM
:thumbsup:
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him:
and he
cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
But if we ourselves are also
found to be "sinners" while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not!
If we say, "We have no sin,"
we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
we say, "We have no sin,"
we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 29, 2014, 08:17:14 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 04:22:47 AM
:thumbsup:
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
But if we ourselves are also found to be "sinners" while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not!
If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
I'm not sure the point you are trying to make, but when I look at the context of those verses I see that we need to continue walking in the Spirit and when we sin, and we confess, God will be faithful to forgive and cleanse us.
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 08:35:26 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on September 29, 2014, 08:17:14 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 04:22:47 AM
:thumbsup:
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
But if we ourselves are also found to be "sinners" while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not!
If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
I'm not sure the point you are trying to make, but when I look at the context of those verses I see that we need to continue walking in the Spirit and when we sin, and we confess, God will be faithful to forgive and cleanse us.
he
cannot sin,
Did you read the whole chapter?
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 04:22:47 AM
:thumbsup:
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit
I think there is a lack of Spirit filled teachers.
and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel
You say there is a dividing line between UR believers and the early church.
I am not a UR believer or represent UR believes.
I a m just a forum member(brother) posting and responding to interesting
posters (brother) as you are one.
and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.
Could you please tell me what is the dividing line that you see.
I asked if you read the whole chapter.
3 1 Look at how great a love[a] the Father has given us that we should be called God's children. And we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it didn't know Him. 2 Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him because we will see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law. 5 You know that He was revealed so that He might take away sins,[c] and there is no sin in Him. 6 Everyone who remains in Him does not sin;[d] everyone who[e] sins has not seen Him or known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 The one who commits[f] sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil's works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin,[g] because His[h] seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God's children—and the Devil's children—are made evident.
The Command to Love
Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message you have heard from the beginning: We should love one another, 12 unlike Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered[j] his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil, and his brother's were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, brothers, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
Love in Action
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone has this world's goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his need—how can God's love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action. 19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence, 20 even if our conscience condemns us, that God is greater than our conscience, and He knows all things.
21 Dear friends, if our conscience doesn't condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and can receive whatever we ask from Him because we keep His commands and do what is pleasing in His sight. 23 Now this is His command: that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commands remains in Him, and He in him. And the way we know that He remains in us is from the Spirit He has given us.
Now this is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you: God is light, and there is absolutely no darkness in Him. 6 If we say, "We have fellowship with Him," yet we walk in darkness, we are lying and are not practicing[c] the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say, "We don't have any sin," we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
I'm not sure the point you are trying to make, but when I look at the context of those verses I see that we need to continue walking in the Spirit and when we sin, and we confess, God will be faithful to forgive and cleanse us.
So as long as we confess our sins we're good to go?
By what you posted, which anyone can read for themselves, is that sinning is breaking the law (lawlessness), but John defines the commandments at the bottom of the chapter: Believe in Jesus and love eachother.
Therefore, when he says that those who are born of God cannot sin, He is talking about those two commandments. They cannot fall away from the faith, or fail in loving their brothers. He brings forth the example of Cain and Able. Cain was of the wicked one, who slew Able because Able's acts were good and Cain's were not. John is saying that those who are born of God, therefore, will not hate their brothers, because the Love of God is within them. If people say they love God but hate their brothers, the love of God is not within them.
The love of God being within a believer is what saves them from hating their brother, from being a murderer. John is not saying that someone who is born of God will NEVER commit an act of sin (unless you take verses out of context to suggest that, and I will leave it to others to see if that makes sense), because in the next chapter he affirms that they can, but if they do, they should confess their sins to God and he will be faithful to forgive them and to cleanse them of all unrighteousness.
The Bible teaches that cleansing of unrighteousness is not just as simple as being forgiven but actually being renewed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
Titus 3
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 02:33:13 AM
I definitely agree. I never credit man for salvation. But I think there is an irony in some interpretations of UR that says if people have no shame about their sin, then suddenly they will stop sinning.
Just as more law does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
More Shame does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
To me, that credits man for salvation still. I give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God who gives each a measure of faith, and to each the Spirit.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 29, 2014, 09:01:21 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 04:22:47 AM
:thumbsup:
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit
I think there is a lack of Spirit filled teachers.
and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel
You say there is a dividing line between UR believers and the early church.
I am not a UR believer or represent UR believes.
I a m just a forum member(brother) posting and responding to interesting
posters (brother) as you are one.
and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.
Could you please tell me what is the dividing line that you see.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 29, 2014, 09:52:48 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on September 29, 2014, 09:01:21 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 04:22:47 AM
:thumbsup:
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit
I think there is a lack of Spirit filled teachers.
and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel
You say there is a dividing line between UR believers and the early church.
I am not a UR believer or represent UR believes.
I a m just a forum member(brother) posting and responding to interesting
posters (brother) as you are one.
and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.
Could you please tell me what is the dividing line that you see.
That line is drawn by the owner of this very forum: http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/
Quote from: dajomaco on September 29, 2014, 09:50:38 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 02:33:13 AM
I definitely agree. I never credit man for salvation. But I think there is an irony in some interpretations of UR that says if people have no shame about their sin, then suddenly they will stop sinning.
Just as more law does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
More Shame does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
To me, that credits man for salvation still. I give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God who gives each a measure of faith, and to each the Spirit.
I never said that shame itself is the answer to sin. The Gospel message Peter preached was
REPENT and be baptized.
If a rapist does so without shame, when will he repent? Nobody repents of something they have no shame about.
2 Thess 3
14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 09:55:57 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on September 29, 2014, 09:52:48 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on September 29, 2014, 09:01:21 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 04:22:47 AM
:thumbsup:
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit
I think there is a lack of Spirit filled teachers.
and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel
You say there is a dividing line between UR believers and the early church.
I am not a UR believer or represent UR believes.
I a m just a forum member(brother) posting and responding to interesting
posters (brother) as you are one.
and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.
Could you please tell me what is the dividing line that you see.
That line is drawn by the owner of this very forum: http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/
Thank you for the link.
That's a thin dividing line. But not the thinnest.
Please continue with me.
When I say "dividing line" note what I am talking about: a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel
The difference between Carlton Pearson's understanding of it, and Gary Amirault's understanding was enough for Gary to take the time to clarify it.
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 09:59:47 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on September 29, 2014, 09:50:38 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2014, 02:33:13 AM
I definitely agree. I never credit man for salvation. But I think there is an irony in some interpretations of UR that says if people have no shame about their sin, then suddenly they will stop sinning.
Just as more law does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
More Shame does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
To me, that credits man for salvation still. I give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God who gives each a measure of faith, and to each the Spirit.
I never said that shame itself is the answer to sin. The Gospel message Peter preached was REPENT and be baptized.
If a rapist does so without shame, when will he repent?
He will repent when some one goes to him with Life not shame.
When someone Shares the Good news as Prompted by the Holy Spirit.
The rapist does not stand a chance against the Holy Spirit and a Spirit filled man.
God is in charge and Paul did not repent because of shame .
Nobody repents of something they have no shame about.
2 Thess 3
14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.
Dear sisters Seth and I are using (rapist) as sinner in our discussions as the bad sinner We could from now on just say sinner.
This whole sin is very sensitive by nature.
QuoteHe will repent when some one goes to him with Life not shame.
When someone Shares the Good news as Prompted by the Holy Spirit.
The rapist does not stand a chance against the Holy Spirit and a Spirit filled man.
God is in charge and Paul did not repent because of shame .
I disagree. Shame is nothing more than a convicted conscience. We see that being employed in 2 Thess 3:14 and we see Paul using the same conviction in Romans 2. For anyone to repent, they need a reason to repent and that is why God has used the foolishness of preaching to save.
By definition of the word "shame" a rapist who has no shame, has NO REGRET or conviction, and therefore, nothing to repent about.
QuoteDear sisters Seth and I are using (rapist) as sinner in our discussions as the bad sinner We could from now on just say sinner.
This whole sin is very sensitive by nature.
"Sinners" is a theological word. Rape is what actually happens in the world. So I will stick with it. If the ladies prefer "murderer" or "torturer" that's fine by me. But let's not whitewash what actually happens in the world.
1 John
Concordant Literal Version (words in parenthesis not in text).
5 And this is the message which we have heard from Him and are informing you, that God is (always) light, and darkness in Him there is (always) none.
6 If we should be saying that we are (in the process of) having fellowship with Him and should be (in the process of) walking in darkness, we are (in the process of) lying and are not (in the process of) doing the truth.
7 Yet (a comparison) if we should be (in the process of) walking in the light as He is (always) in the light, we are (in the process of) having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is (always) cleansing us from every sin.
In my opinion, the one who does not know the scorching compunction of spiritual purification from which it may feel impossible to escape, is to be truly pitied, for he builds up for himself much to be reckoned with.
If I am aware of darkness and acknowledge - it seems hourly and daily - that I am a sinner, then the Spirit of the Beloved Christ enables me to lay aside the pride of the lesser lower self, so that I may not walk in darkness without even knowing it.
I am of the opinion that if the Saviour, Jesus the Christ, had not saved the world in His perfect timing, we would not be talking about the Light today; indeed, I perceive that evil was so growing in power that today humanity should be lower than the beasts of the field - I believe this to be fact in spite of what the material mind of man considers the "civilised" aspects of the evil power that ruled the world at the time.
Therefore, because of all of this, and much more which can only be made plain once the spiritual body sits at the feet of Christ, I personally follow the Saviour - indeed, the personal Saviour - who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
True and Lasting Peace only in Christ
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord. He went to the high priest 2 and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he traveled and was nearing Damascus, a light from heaven suddenly flashed around him. 4 Falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 "Who are You, Lord?" he said.
"I am Jesus, the One you are persecuting,"
My sincere question is
Does God use Shame to bring one to repentant.
Does God through the holy spirit use shame to keep believers in line.
Notice the first thing Jesus asks him. Why are you persecuting me? Interesting.
1 Cor 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (such humility)
1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Seth said, That line is drawn by the owner of this very forum: http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/
On 'dividing lines' and 'dogma'...
In the following reference from Ephesians the original Greek word dogma has been replaced by the word ordinances. In the reference from Colossians dogma has been replaced with the word requirements.
Ephesians 2:15; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself one new man, so making peace.
Colossians 2:13-14; Wiping out the handwriting of requirements (dogma) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
The third use of the word dogma has been replaced by the word regulations. In this verse, dogma is found as part of the Greek phrase dogmatazio, which literally means to submit oneself to dogma.
Paul asks the Colossians, if you have died in Christ to the basic principles of the world, why are you submitting yourselves to dogma? (Colossians 2:20)
There are now upwards of 40, 000 'dividing lines' within this monolithic religious system we call 'Christianity'.....
Everyone has their own dogmatic creed by which they define themselves..
Dogma is ultimately always 'against us and contrary to us' because it is opposed to the spirit. Dogma always divides because it hinders us from being able to freely love (as we have been loved).
Lord, may we all learn to live in the spirit and drop our doctrinal child-toys and grow up to love!
Quote from: onesimus on September 30, 2014, 01:40:52 AM
Seth said, That line is drawn by the owner of this very forum: http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/
On 'dividing lines' and 'dogma'...
In the following reference from Ephesians the original Greek word dogma has been replaced by the word ordinances. In the reference from Colossians dogma has been replaced with the word requirements.
Ephesians 2:15; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself one new man, so making peace.
Colossians 2:13-14; Wiping out the handwriting of requirements (dogma) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
The third use of the word dogma has been replaced by the word regulations. In this verse, dogma is found as part of the Greek phrase dogmatazio, which literally means to submit oneself to dogma.
Paul asks the Colossians, if you have died in Christ to the basic principles of the world, why are you submitting yourselves to dogma?
There are now upwards of 40, 000 'dividing lines' within this monolithic religious system we call 'Christianity'.....
Everyone has their own dogmatic creed by which they define themselves..
Dogma is ultimately always 'against us and contrary to us' because it is opposed to the spirit. Dogma always divides because it hinders us from being able to freely love (as we have been loved).
Lord, may we all learn to live in the spirit and drop our doctrinal child-toys and grow up to love!
Good grief. Look at what I actually SAID
I said dividing line ON HOW UR IS UNDERSTOOD. I didn't say dividing line between PEOPLE. There is a big difference between how UR is understood, and I believe that the lack of teaching about what the Spirit has to do with salvation is the biggest factor in that.
There is a HUGE dividing line between how ETers understand the gospel and how UR believers understand it, and that has to do with the understanding of "aion" and "aionios" and the translations of hell from hades and gehenna etc. I never said that we needed to be contrary to PEOPLE. Seriously, give me a break.
If someone was wearing red glasses and someone else was wearing no glasses, and they both looked up at a blue sky, and one person said it was blue, and the other person said it was purple or red, the dividing line between how they see the sky would be THE GLASSES.
They could still be perfectly good friends.
If you're going to rebuke me for "doctrinal child-toys" you may want to take the time to understand what I was actually saying. :doh:
To me;
there's nothing wrong with contending for sound doctrine. In fact, we're told to do so. So they's nothing inherently wrong with doctrine.
Where it can become problematic, IMO, is when we are critical, fault-finding, hateful, unkind to people. I haven't seen anyone take such a stance in this thread, but rather, attempt to explore and present understanding of what the scriptures say.
So I believe it's accurate to say we can contend for sound doctrine, make distinctions, draw scriptural lines of understanding, say "the scripture says X,Y,Z, so that's the way it is", AND be loving, considerate, kind, esteeming others before ourselves. I can say [theoretically - I never have actually done so directly to a person, but it would be factual] "the scriptures say believe on Jesus as Savior and you will be saved. If you haven't done that, then you're not as yet saved". That's not [necessarily] hateful, playing with doctrinal toys, searching out someone else's sin, etc., etc. IMO, insisting that it is those things is just as short-sighted and out of kilter with the scriptures as actually being hateful and condeming is. It's just 2 sides of the same coin, both off-target IMO. I believe extremes can get off either direction. Exclusively saying "sin, sin, sin" or "just love, love, love", either one can become just so much unhelpful noise. Why can't we find the balance of rightly dividing the WHOLE?
I believe that would look like "speaking the truth in love". Nothing wrong with speaking the truth. Season it with love. No other explanations needed, if we want to be scriptural. :2c:
Amen, brother.
No rebuke of u Seth :) I quoted you, quoting someone else, who was defining (yet) another line...
Here, I rebuke 'dividing lines' and I rebuke dogma! ( in Yeshuas name!)
Sure, Jabcat...I hear you say there is nothing wrong with contending for sound doctrine! Here I am contending..
Sound doctrine makes peace, does not divide, destroys the lines of enmity...we all 'know in part' until that which is 'perfect' comes...
Love is perfect doctrine...
It's not any one person's wrong - it is the historical fault of the body of Christ...we cannot continue to set up lines of distinction and difference between ourselves because when we do we exalt our doctrine above the crucified Christ..
My prayer used the royal 'we', too..
The reason dogma falters for us is because it opposes our need and ability to live in the spirit.
Jesus said, my words are 'spirit'. And we are those born of 'water' and the 'spirit'.
Dogma is inflexible. The spirit (which means 'wind') and water must flow as the most essential part of their nature.
Both wind and water can flow in one direction one day and the opposite direction the next day.
When we 'define lines' and insist on a dogmatic view (for ourselves, others or both) we confine the spirit to only one direction..
Love can only thrive in the spirit and in water...it breaks the banks of division and can flow in any direction.
We are not adherents of a doctrinal system , we are those clinging to and living within a real live person; Jesus Christ!
He is truth and he is love :)
Love is truth
Quote from: onesimus on September 30, 2014, 02:50:02 AM
No rebuke of u Seth :) I quoted you, quoting someone else, who was defining (yet) another line...
Here, I rebuke 'dividing lines' and I rebuke dogma! ( in Yeshuas name!)
Seems to me that the phrase "dividing line" became an emotional trigger. For a while, I used to see UR like Carlton Pearson (and bless him for the severe trial he went through to change his doctrine in the face of so much opposition. I have the highest respect for the man in that respect), but then when I joined Tentmaker, I started to see other scriptures and I had to tell myself that maybe there were things I didn't quite understand yet, even though I was at least confident in the ultimate salvation of all. So my understanding evolved based on things I was seeing about sin and what causes salvation and future judgment etc which were in the scripture. But, I would have no problem having coffee and being friends with people who see things differently. My dad believes in ET. I don't let "dogma" stop me from seeing him. When I say "dividing line" I just mean difference in paradigm.
I don't know anything about this man and I don't rebuke him either. The 'defining line creed' is the favorite pastime of the traditional and historical church...
What I say to the church is: "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got."
We keep on doing the same thing expecting a different result..
It is often the case, whichever angle people see God from, that there is some inherent need to define themselves by emphasizing and highlighting the difference between themselves and others..It becomes the definer. Love gets an afterthought - as every 'dividing line' is punctuated with a PS: "Oh, but we love them."
Take this particular dividing line for instance; the one in question that crinkled my forehead and started my post..I see how those who believe that 'all are saved' are right and yet I see how those who believe that it is yet to happen are right....
Why not let both be right...why use words that exlude..
And what a reason to rejoice - because people are either saved or they are going to be!
10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house ] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Paul said to speak the same thing , having the same mind and judgement. The 'same thing' was that there be no divisions among you..'words of wisdom are blah blah blah in light of the cross..'
We will NEVER have unity based on our own doctrinal take on things...
I want to do something different...I want to learn how to live with opposites
Here's one thing that there have been very view divisions over. The cross. Even those dreaded catholics have got the cross..lol. All our divisions are over things that are written...the letter kills..
If we had one thing in common it would be the cross...and that's where the power and love is found that we desperately need..
Quote from: onesimus on September 30, 2014, 02:50:02 AM
Sure, Jabcat...I hear you say there is nothing wrong with contending for sound doctrine! Here I am contending..
Sound doctrine makes peace, does not divide, destroys the lines of enmity...we all 'know in part' until that which is 'perfect' comes...
Love is perfect doctrine...
we cannot continue to set up lines of distinction and difference between ourselves because when we do we exalt our doctrine above the crucified Christ..
Love is truth...
onesimus, we may be mostly having a common computer/black and white attempt at communication that is faltering to truly be clear of what each believes/understands. That said, I'll go ahead and post this, and you can deny, clarify, or take the 5th.
What do you actually mean by this? "Love is truth, love is perfect doctrine, we cannot set up lines of distinction"? Are you saying if we love, then nothing else matters? That's kind of what it sounds like, could you please confirm or clarify? Are you saying there is no distinction made in the scriptures - so therefore we should ignore anything related - between lightness and darkness, the works of the adversary and the works of the Savior, children of God and children of the devil, believers and unbelievers, etc., etc.? I believe the scriptures are full of such distinctions and yes, "lines". It's part of the truth. Otherwise, IMO, we can wander around like ostriches sticking our heads in the sand, and end up with an "I'm OK, you're OK, anything goes" theology. I see it as part of not being led away by or a purveyor of deceit, as well as being wise as serpents but harmless as doves. So again, what are you saying if it's not "love is all there is"? I personally believe love and the cross are the most important things, but that within and saturated with those things is much else in the scrips for our instruction. Salt and light and all that... If I'm misunderstanding you, please clarify? Thanks, James.
p.s. re-reading;
you said "why can't both be right"? because sometimes, imo, the scriptures are very clear. so in such cases, "living with opposites" can be not speaking the truth in love. in that scenario, one may have only half the equation. may have love, but not truth. or may have "truth" [otherwise sound doctrine] but no [expressed] love.
i honestly don't think we can scripturally have it both ways in many areas. as an example, either someone's saved or they're not. and i believe we ought to know the difference and how it occurs and what people need to do to be saved, and be able to tell them (absolutely! in love, concern, kindness - always!). because the scriptures spell it out, and we're given the message of reconciliation. so what are we telling them? "everyone's right"?
Quote from: jabcat on September 30, 2014, 03:36:45 AM
Quote from: onesimus on September 30, 2014, 02:50:02 AM
Sure, Jabcat...I hear you say there is nothing wrong with contending for sound doctrine! Here I am contending..
Sound doctrine makes peace, does not divide, destroys the lines of enmity...we all 'know in part' until that which is 'perfect' comes...
Love is perfect doctrine...
we cannot continue to set up lines of distinction and difference between ourselves because when we do we exalt our doctrine above the crucified Christ..
Love is truth...
onesimus, we may be mostly having a common computer/black and white attempt at communication that is faltering to truly be clear of what each believes/understands. That said, I'll go ahead and post this, and you can deny, clarify, or take the 5th.
What do you actually mean by this? "Love is truth, love is perfect doctrine, we cannot set up lines of distinction"? Are you saying if we love, then nothing else matters? That's kind of what it sounds like, could you please confirm or clarify? Are you saying there is no distinction made in the scriptures - so therefore we should ignore anything related - between lightness and darkness, the works of the adversary and the works of the Savior, children of God and children of the devil, believers and unbelievers, etc., etc.? I believe the scriptures are full of such distinctions and yes, "lines". It's part of the truth. Otherwise, IMO, we can wander around like ostriches sticking our heads in the sand, and end up with an "I'm OK, you're OK, anything goes" theology. I see it as part of not being led away by or a purveyor of deceit, as well as being wise as serpents but harmless as doves. So again, what are you saying if it's not "love is all there is"? I personally believe love and the cross are the most important things, but that within and saturated with those things is much else in the scrips for our instruction. Salt and light and all that... If I'm misunderstanding you, please clarify? Thanks, James.
Hi James, I'm Simon - what great namesakes we both have! :gimmefive:
Maybe my post above clarified a little more where I am coming from..
The word is a 'lamp unto my feet' - in other words it illuminates where I am at. I share from where I am at at present. I think we all do.
All these questions are good but I cannot answer them all. To me, it is that God is love and that love conquers all - even when we lay down and die, or even worse, let someone else be right...lol
The early church turned the world upside down and were really 'one.' They did not have these NT books. In fact, many would have hardly had any knowledge of any written scriptures at all.
We have unimaginable bible resources. Yet, we have 40,000 distinct formal divisions. In comparing the world to the church, one has to wonder who is being turned upside down...
I'm saying that truth is a person and to know it is to know the person. When Paul spoke of divisions (see above post) he said he determined to know no one other than 'Christ and Him crucified.'
We have turned the mere written words into a religion that kills and divides. I want to know just Christ and his cross and I want to learn to love with that (him)...
I felt to come here to this site and express some of these things here...it is in love..
Quote from: jabcat on September 30, 2014, 03:48:38 AM
p.s. re-reading;
you said "why can't both be right"? because sometimes, imo, the scriptures are very clear. so in such cases, "living with opposites" can be not speaking the truth in love. in that scenario, one may have only half the equation. may have love, but not truth. or may have "truth" [otherwise sound doctrine] but no [expressed] love.
i honestly don't think we can scripturally have it both ways in many areas. as an example, either someone's saved or they're not. and i believe we ought to know the difference and how it occurs and what people need to do to be saved, and be able to tell them (absolutely! in love, concern, kindness - always!). because the scriptures spell it out, and we're given the message of reconciliation. so what are we telling them? "everyone's right"?
Either a person is saved or they are not may seem black and white to you and me, but what about the way God sees it - from where he views, we are already seated with him in heavenly places. Is it difficult to see how God might have already saved a person, by the cross, and as yet, in our limited view, it has also not transpired yet. God is not bound by this timeline and neither is the cross (the lamb slain before the foundation of the world). These things aren't simple. I'd prefer to see both camps..
As for what to tell people who have not come to know Jesus yet? I can only say that, in many cases, whatever we tell them they are unlikely to hear for the noise of our squabbles..
Unity is not my utmost concern, but what is true. Jesus himself said that he came not to bring peace but a sword. That sword divides. While you are fine living with opposites, I believe in finding what is true and what is not true. I know that unity will come eventually, but it will come by knowing the truth. If we want to know the truth, we need to know Christ.
But Christ said stuff. He said things which are true, and the opposite of which is not true. So, no, I cannot live with the opposite of what he said. Jesus did not preach a message of unity. He said "if they hated me, they will hate you too." But he didn't say "agree with their doctrines of Law keeping and Messiah disavowal so you can have unity"
Quote from: onesimus on September 30, 2014, 04:16:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 30, 2014, 03:48:38 AM
p.s. re-reading;
you said "why can't both be right"? because sometimes, imo, the scriptures are very clear. so in such cases, "living with opposites" can be not speaking the truth in love. in that scenario, one may have only half the equation. may have love, but not truth. or may have "truth" [otherwise sound doctrine] but no [expressed] love.
i honestly don't think we can scripturally have it both ways in many areas. as an example, either someone's saved or they're not. and i believe we ought to know the difference and how it occurs and what people need to do to be saved, and be able to tell them (absolutely! in love, concern, kindness - always!). because the scriptures spell it out, and we're given the message of reconciliation. so what are we telling them? "everyone's right"?
Either a person is saved or they are not may seem black and white to you and me, but what about the way God sees it - from where he views, we are already seated with him in heavenly places. Is it difficult to see how God might have already saved a person, by the cross, and as yet, in our limited view, it has also not transpired yet. God is not bound by this timeline and neither is the cross (the lamb slain before the foundation of the world). These things aren't simple. I'd prefer to see both camps..
As for what to tell people who have not come to know Jesus yet? I can only say that, in many cases, whatever we tell them they are unlikely to hear for the noise of our squabbles..
The best I have as to "how God sees it" is what the scriptures tell us, revealed by His Spirit. As I understand, the ones seated with Him in heavenly places are believers, the called out ones, those given faith to trust in Him as Savior.
What are we told to tell them? I believe what the jailers were told - believe and confess and you will be saved. If the Holy Spirit is drawing that person and it's their time, despite each of our own unique faults, I believe they will hear.
Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2014, 04:30:02 AM
Unity is not my utmost concern, but what is true. Jesus himself said that he came not to bring peace but a sword. That sword divides. While you are fine living with opposites, I believe in finding what is true and what is not true. I know that unity will come eventually, but it will come by knowing the truth. If we want to know the truth, we need to know Christ.
But Christ said stuff. He said things which are true, and the opposite of which is not true. So, no, I cannot live with the opposite of what he said. Jesus did not preach a message of unity. He said "if they hated me, they will hate you too." But he didn't say "agree with their doctrines of Law keeping and Messiah disavowal so you can have unity"
Jesus, who said 'I did not come to bring peace' was the one who also said, 'my peace I leave with you'..
Jesus said 'I came to bring a sword' also said 'if you live by the sword you die by the sword..'
These 'seem' as opposites..because they are for different people, different times and different situations. The blessing is found in knowing and hearing what God is speaking to me now and letting it be different for someone else.
Living with 'seeming' opposites is not something I am necessarily fine with - but it is what allows my love for others to grow and become stronger.
Jesus did mean for us to be in unity, which is why he asked God to make us all one..(John 17:21) . The amazing promise of this is that the world will know God has sent the son..
He also said that if we love one another the world will know that we are his disciples..
It isn't getting (finally) our doctrine sorted out when the world will get it..Unless being of the 'same mind' is love..
See his cross afresh and see how the lines that we draw between ourselves and others are abolished..
Ephesians 2:15;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself one new man, so making peace. [/b]
I'm not looking anything up here, so if these are not legitimate points, OK.
But in the same vein as you suggest, "different times/places", etc.;
When Jesus prayed for "them" to be made one, I believe primarily He was praying for the 12. Elsewhere He, and also Paul and others were clear there would be divisions, some would need to be even put out from the assembly etc. I believe there is a good study to be had on unity, what it means and how it's attained, etc. but I don't think it's totally explained here.
Also, in the Ephesians scrip, I'd suggest (without looking) that may be talking about Law, the new covenant, being IN Christ, i.e., those given faith to believe in this age, our standing (as believers) in Christ? I'll check it more later.
Quote from: onesimus on September 30, 2014, 05:10:16 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2014, 04:30:02 AM
Unity is not my utmost concern, but what is true. Jesus himself said that he came not to bring peace but a sword. That sword divides. While you are fine living with opposites, I believe in finding what is true and what is not true. I know that unity will come eventually, but it will come by knowing the truth. If we want to know the truth, we need to know Christ.
But Christ said stuff. He said things which are true, and the opposite of which is not true. So, no, I cannot live with the opposite of what he said. Jesus did not preach a message of unity. He said "if they hated me, they will hate you too." But he didn't say "agree with their doctrines of Law keeping and Messiah disavowal so you can have unity"
Jesus, who said 'I did not come to bring peace' was the one who also said, 'my peace I leave with you'..
Jesus said 'I came to bring a sword' also said 'if you live by the sword you die by the sword..'
These 'seem' as opposites..because they are for different people, different times and different situations. The blessing is found in knowing and hearing what God is speaking to me now and letting it be different for someone else.
Living with 'seeming' opposites is not something I am necessarily fine with - but it is what allows my love for others to grow and become stronger.
Jesus did mean for us to be in unity, which is why he asked God to make us all one..(John 17:21) . The amazing promise of this is that the world will know God has sent the son..
He also said that if we love one another the world will know that we are his disciples..
It isn't getting (finally) our doctrine sorted out when the world will get it..Unless being of the 'same mind' is love..
See his cross afresh and see how the lines that we draw between ourselves and others are abolished..
Ephesians 2:15; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself one new man, so making peace. [/b]
Loving each other and disagreeing on doctrine in
a discussion board are not mutually exclusive. I think you are conflating that issue.
If there hadn't been disagreement on doctrine, I would still be an ETer. I am blessed that God provided someone who was willing to argue with the predominant eternal damnation doctrine. You certainly wouldn't have been able to help me because what you want is unity and I
needed truth.
[/quote]
...You certainly wouldn't have been able to help me because what you want is unity and I needed truth.
[/quote]
What I needed yesterday is maybe not the same as what I need today... This is dogma's great deception...It is yesterdays word for us packaged into today's dogma...We can become so hooked on it that it can blind us from what God might be saying today...This is why Jesus said his words are spirit...
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
For me, I need to be less concerned about yesterday and tomorrow and hear what the spirit would blow (say) today, here and now...Being fixed on dogmatic belief systems instead of the person of Christ is what leads us into religion.
Define "dogma" if you could.
Here is a definition from websters: : a belief or set of beliefs that is accepted by the members of a group without being questioned or doubted
Isn't that what we do here? Question? Do you know why church authorities create dogma? To enforce unity!
A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true
That's a dictionary definition
In the bible it was the way the Judaic experts in the law interpreted the torah and delivered it to the Jews..
The church has kind of replicated this system..I mean, the doctrine of endless damnation is your classic example. Eternal hell is dogma in the church and the truth of Universal Salvation cannot be heard because of it..It blocks our hears and eyes from seeing something that may be different..
That's a little example...but the principal operates throughout our own walk with the Lord..We build up a cache of beliefs and, in a way, they become our version of God, often dogmatically...then he has to fight to be heard if his word for us is new or different..
Quote from: onesimus on September 30, 2014, 06:01:15 AM
A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true
That's a dictionary definition
In the bible it was the way the Judaic experts in the law interpreted the torah and delivered it to the Jews..
The church has kind of replicated this system..I mean, the doctrine of endless damnation is your classic example. Eternal hell is dogma in the church and the truth of Universal Salvation cannot be heard because of it..It blocks our hears and eyes from seeing something that may be different..
That's a little example...but the principal operates throughout our own walk with the Lord..We build up a cache of beliefs and, in a way, they become our version of God, often dogmatically...then he has to fight to be heard if his word for us is new or different..
Are you telling us you don't hold to anything that is inconvertably true? Is Jesus come in the flesh?
lol...u got that from a dictionary definition...nothing i said..
Now you have me pegged as a gnostic..lol
Of course there's stuff that's absolutely true - that's not in any way the context..
Anyway, time marches, I've got animals that need some dogmatic love and attention..
great talk!
PS: it's good what you all do here...that's not the context from my end either..
Quote from: onesimus on September 30, 2014, 06:11:57 AM
Of course there's stuff that's absolutely true
I agree.
PPS: JUst in case you're still wondering..
Yes, Jesus came in the flesh! :declare:
Yes and amen to that my brother!
Take care of those cows :icon_jokercolor:
Wow , woke up and read these 3 in a very good /fruitful conversation ,
Just what I needed to hear :HeartThrob:
I just remember do not grieve the SPIRIT or quench it ! The Spirit is LIFE ..
Something spoke this morning clearly , saying , We have it turned around ''
We are not to build our brothers and sisters up in the Lord Jesus Christ ,
but to build up the Lord Jesus Christ in our brothers and sisters !
Its Focus and Eyes on Him
Its Him in us , not us in Him .
In other words , do everything , and say everything as unto DOING IT TO the Lord Jesus Christ HIMSELF ..
If we can see Jesus Christ in love and Spirit of Truth moving and have our being , the less focus on the flesh that is being separated and set apart
for Holiness unto the Lord , those gifts of the Spirit are His and to be ,good stewards or Children of the Most High God do Honor Him
Than we can See Jesus Christ and has returned again and come in the flesh /our flesh , these earthly bodies to dwell in Emanuel .God with us .
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
1 John 1:2
The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
Quote from: rosered on September 30, 2014, 01:58:06 PM
Something spoke this morning clearly , saying , We have it turned around "
We are not to build our brothers and sisters up in the Lord Jesus Christ ,
but to build up the Lord Jesus Christ in our brothers and sisters !
wow! that is so true!! yet I never thought about it that way! :dsunny:
Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2014, 05:51:45 AM
("dogma")
Here is a definition from websters: : a belief or set of beliefs that is accepted by the members of a group without being questioned or doubted
...did the denominations form by rejecting, rethinking dogma..? But then it's funny how they went and created their own set of dogma.. some old, some new..
One thing for sure.. "hell" is very entrenched! Isn't that odd? A "stronghold" for sure..
I think of untruths strongly held, as strong delusions.. sometimes (usually?) ridiculous! but with enough thread of truth to hold the fabric of it together..?
...
the greatest ones in the world: [where did they come from??]
hell (profoundly changes the perception of God! :sigh: )
evolution as to origins (most of the world's strongly held untruths rest on this one?)
death as another dimension of life (imo anyway) --
which makes a place of eternal punishment necessary - i spent some time years ago investigating the original source in history of fire and the underworld
no reconciliation/repentance possible after death..
law mixed with grace needed
I'm sure there's more.. (just thinking out loud! God bless!)
I suppose we all want a set of truths.. a framework of reality.. I know I do! :)
The word "dogma" was used as a response to my comment about how there are certain understandings, or teachings, that are the differences in paradigms of understanding. The word "dogma" is a highly emotionally charged word because it calls to mind Inquisitions and excommunications and church legalism.
But the bottom line, when you really look at what a dogma is, it's a belief that is held by an authority to be without question or doubt (incontrovertible). Putting aside the meaning of authority as with a church official or government, we are all authorities internally as to what we believe, I believe EVERYONE on this board have personal dogmas.
Is Christ come in the flesh? Yes or no? Are you willing to say no? I think not, because you know what spirit says no. If anyone holds ANY belief that they think is absolutely true, then that would be a personal dogma. Nobody would put it that way, because again, the word "dogma" has a bad brand, because of its relationship to church authority and abuses of the past.
I wouldn't use the word "dogma" either, but the issue brought up by Simon was whether we should commit to belief in absolute truths even if such committal necessarily would represent a division, at least in terms of belief. I never said division between people (ie love and friendliness), but if ANYONE holds to an absolute truth, the logical necessity results that he also holds that the opposite is absolutely false. That's a natural division in understanding, and I don't think anything is wrong with acknowledging it, which is why I agree with Jabcat.
That's very good Seth! A very good summation! :smile: :smile:
.. :Chinscratch: how to be free to be strong in ones convictions without causing division.. i believe in the 'end' it will be a beautiful tapestry.. a blend of all true convictions..
truths to me, and for me, take two forms.. that which I believe from within, and that which I've learned from an outer source.. It's not that all outer source isn't accurate and can't become an inner conviction or that it shouldn't!.. but I think conviction comes from the first.. when within one's own heart and mind which we think of as from the Lord.. and we surely hope it is! I think often humans think in terms of either, or, when more accurately it is "and"..
:smile:
Seth Says
I never said that shame itself is the answer to sin. The Gospel message Peter preached was REPENT and be baptized.
If a rapist does so without shame, when will he repent?
Nobody repents of something they have no shame about.
I don't think Paul was ashamed of what he was doing.
The Spirit of God came upon him and he did a complete 180 (repented).
You believe that the Holy Spirit uses shame to bring someone to repentance.
Does the Holy Spirit use shame to help the believer in their walk.
Either one of us could have a belief on what Paul immediately felt. But neither of us would deny that Jesus first brought awareness of sin to Paul's attention in their encounter. The first words out of Christ's mouth was "why are you persecuting me?" I have pointed out scriptures where Paul indeed believed himself to be the lesser of the Apostles for his persecution of the church.
It's therefore a completely reasonable thing to do, if this is the model you use for the Gospel message, to say "Why are you molesting children? Why are you murdering people? Why are you raping women? REPENT and be baptized and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. Save yourselves from this untoward generation."
The awareness of sin has always been part of the Gospel message. If nobody has an awareness of sin, nobody has a reason to repent of it. In fact, this is what got Stephen killed. He took them to their own past and showed how stubborn they were traditionally, and how they are stubborn today. Then they killed him. His entire speech was based on their history with disobedience.
Whether or not a rapist actually FEELS shame is neither here or there with regard to the message. I maintain that a rapist who feels no shame after his sin is shown to him is probably a sociopath. But it's clear to me that the Gospel message contains the conviction of it.
Whether or not a rapist actually FEELS shame is neither here or there with regard to the message. I maintain that a rapist who feels no shame after his sin is shown to him is probably a sociopath. But it's clear to me that the Gospel message contains the conviction of it.
I agree the message of the Gospel should be delivered the same way.
To the rapist who has no shame
and to the rapist that has bag loads of shame,
and to the immature man with naughty thoughts.
All require the message of Grace through the sacrifice of Jesus.
When a believer feels shame is it the adversary messing with their mind
to distract them from Christ.
Or is it a result of the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin.
It really depends on how the son spends his inheritance, right?
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world todaY
Does the Holy Spirit use shame to guide the believer.
Shame on you. Is this the voice of the Holy Spirit or the voice of the adversary.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 01, 2014, 12:33:48 AM
I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world todaY
Does the Holy Spirit use shame to guide the believer.
Shame on you. Is this the voice of the Holy Spirit or the voice of the adversary.
Not only would I say that God could say those words to a believer who goes about raping women, I would say that the words would be heard as, "away from me, ye workers of iniquity."
BTW, the Holy Spirit teaching that I am referring to is an active saving power vs the teaching that personal belief in Christ isn't necessary for salvation, that salvation is an instantaneous passive reality rather than an active process.
BTW the adversary would probably never say "shame on you" for sin. He sins from the beginning. The question is, do you want to the works of Abraham or those of the adversary?
I'm not staying in the middle of this one :laugh: , but is this pertinent?
"I say this to shame you [to your shame]"...1 Corinthians 6:5
Quote from: rosered on September 30, 2014, 01:58:06 PM
Wow , woke up and read these 3 in a very good /fruitful conversation ,
Just what I needed to hear :HeartThrob:
I just remember do not grieve the SPIRIT or quench it ! The Spirit is LIFE ..
Something spoke this morning clearly , saying , We have it turned around "
We are not to build our brothers and sisters up in the Lord Jesus Christ ,
but to build up the Lord Jesus Christ in our brothers and sisters !
Its Focus and Eyes on Him
Its Him in us , not us in Him .
In other words , do everything , and say everything as unto DOING IT TO the Lord Jesus Christ HIMSELF ..
If we can see Jesus Christ in love and Spirit of Truth moving and have our being , the less focus on the flesh that is being separated and set apart
for Holiness unto the Lord , those gifts of the Spirit are His and to be ,good stewards or Children of the Most High God do Honor Him
Than we can See Jesus Christ and has returned again and come in the flesh /our flesh , these earthly bodies to dwell in Emanuel .God with us .
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
1 John 1:2
The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
We are not to build our brothers and sisters up in the Lord Jesus Christ ,
but to build up the Lord Jesus Christ in our brothers and sisters ! :iagree:
I find when discussing doctrines in regard to Sin.
There is not a whole lot of looking at HIM.
if we are faithless, He remains faithful,
for He cannot deny Himself.
:laughing7:
James, I quoted that but it was never addressed.
I say this to your shame!
What Sin
Can you clarify?
v 7 the very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you are completely defeated already.
So if you have cases pertaining to this life, do you select those who have no standing in the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame!
Paul is saying in regard to NON spiritual matters this particular group
of believers should be ashamed for not judging these life matters in house.
How is this an example of the Holy Spirit shaming some one.
I think you are missing the point. Paul is using shame for the purpose of conviction. I doubt he motivated by the adversary to do that. The adversary does not shame sinners, he encourages them.
Seth you are not required to answer .
Just say you don't want to answer.
Does the Holy Spirit use shame to convict the believer of Sin?
I do not believe that he does.
As it is written: Look! I am putting a stone in Zion to stumble over and a rock to trip over, yet the one who believes on Him will not be put to shame.
Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame,
For it is contained in Scripture: Look! I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and honored cornerstone, and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame!
I say this to our shame: We have been weak. But in whatever anyone dares to boast—I am talking foolishly—I also dare:
Both the man and his wife were naked, yet felt no shame.
They did how ever feel shame after they listened to the serpent and ate from the tree of knowledge.
God how ever clothed them.
I believe as believers we are clothed.
I don't mind answering. First I would point you to the OT understanding of faith which is "faithfulness." Were Adam and Eve faithful? It's funny you brought that up. Notice that the Serpent didn't shame them. He encouraged them to do that which brought about shame. It was when they noticed their nakedness that they sought to be clothed. It was God who gave them better garments. According to Romans 7, what does the Law bring awareness of? The very fact that Paul uses shame to encourage repentance reveals that it was done in older to KEEP them from being devoured by that lion.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 01, 2014, 02:21:14 AM
I believe as believers we are clothed.[/color]
...indeed! yet surely it is possible to feel sorrow and remorse for our being so removed from His perfection.. and for individual foolish, destructive, mean or embarassing things we've done.. (more and more I thing many, most? things have two poles and truth is somewhere in the middle) not that a believer needs to dwell on their past error or sins or to even think of them, as they are past, forgiven and as far as He is conderned, buried. But if they come to my mind, I feel for me, it is healthier to feel that sorrow or regret than to deny it or perhaps even try to 'shove' it down into my subconscious mind or perhaps avoid it..
I've heard it said and think i agree, that the further we go with God the more aware we are of our flaws and imperfection.. lowly mortal, flawed state.. but perhaps 'shame' in this case is not applicable.. but in the case of say a child abductor... I think it will take some washing of the Holy Ghost to wash away all consciousness of shame.. Or despots.. aka like Hitler, ever popular to consider.. though there have been many such.. I think on his day of realization it will not be easy to say oh well.. so it was..
- Even though it was God in control, choosing one, hardening another.. and allowing it to unfold thus, but there is still emotion.. and being smacked in the face with the reality of having harmed another.. Better to deeply repent.. always.. who says we cannot repent more than once.. these are, imo, deep psychological issues.. which I believe much of all God has done and chosen, is..
I better go to bed, this entirely too long winded! :))
I agree Marie. It's not that we should dwell on past sins which are forgiven. :thumbsup:
Going forward is what I am talking about. If a believer does something horrible to another person, I believe conviction leads to repentance. I think total lack of shame would be not only unhealthy but may signify deep psychological issues.
I love your post as it describes a beautiful example of what it means to be humble.
Marie Says
I think it will take some washing of the Holy Ghost to wash away all consciousness of shame..
I whole heartily agree. :iagree:
How can the Holy Spirit both take shame away from the believer and add to it.
Seth
I don't mind answering. First I would point you to the OT understanding of faith which is "faithfulness." Were Adam and Eve faithful? It's funny you brought that up. Notice that the Serpent didn't shame them. He encouraged them to do that which brought about shame.
He encouraged them to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which by its very nature produces shame leading to death.
It was when they noticed their nakedness that they sought to be clothed. It was God who gave them better garments. According to Romans 7, what does the Law bring awareness of?
Death.
I believe the Holy Spirit leads believers toward the tree of Life (the Cross).
The adversary wants to keep the believer in bondage to the tree and knowledge of Death.
The very fact that Paul uses shame to encourage repentance reveals that it was done in older to KEEP them from being devoured by that lion.
Be serious! Be alert! Your adversary the Devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour. 9 Resist him and be firm in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are being experienced by your fellow believers throughout the world.
10 Now the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, will personally[f] restore, establish, strengthen, and support you after you have suffered a little.[g] 11 The dominion[h] belongs to Him forever. Amen.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 01, 2014, 10:48:58 PM
Marie Says
I think it will take some washing of the Holy Ghost to wash away all consciousness of shame..
I whole heartily agree. :iagree:
How can the Holy Spirit both take shame away from the believer and add to it.
Seth
I don't mind answering. First I would point you to the OT understanding of faith which is "faithfulness." Were Adam and Eve faithful? It's funny you brought that up. Notice that the Serpent didn't shame them. He encouraged them to do that which brought about shame.
He encouraged them to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which by its very nature produces shame leading to death.
No it's sin that leads to death. The wages of shame is not death. The wages of sin is death.
QuoteIt was when they noticed their nakedness that they sought to be clothed. It was God who gave them better garments. According to Romans 7, what does the Law bring awareness of?
Death.
The Law brings an awareness of sin. Listening to the adversary is to listen to one who tempts. The Devil would never attempt to convict anyone of sin. He would be ahouse divided against itself.
Quote from: Seth on October 01, 2014, 10:56:00 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 01, 2014, 10:48:58 PM
Marie Says
I think it will take some washing of the Holy Ghost to wash away all consciousness of shame..
I whole heartily agree. :iagree:
How can the Holy Spirit both take shame away from the believer and add to it.
Seth
I don't mind answering. First I would point you to the OT understanding of faith which is "faithfulness." Were Adam and Eve faithful? It's funny you brought that up. Notice that the Serpent didn't shame them. He encouraged them to do that which brought about shame.
He encouraged them to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which by its very nature produces shame leading to death.
Both the man and his wife were naked, yet felt no shame.
They felt shame after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ,
the same tree that produced death.
I am saying the fruit from the tree of Life,
is different from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and evil.
They would not have know shame if they had not eaten from that tree
No it's sin that leads to death. The wages of shame is not death. The wages of sin is death.
QuoteIt was when they noticed their nakedness that they sought to be clothed. It was God who gave them better garments. According to Romans 7, what does the Law bring awareness of?
Death.
The Law brings an awareness of sin.
Then who brings awareness of the forgiveness of Sin,
surely not the Devil.
Listening to the adversary is to listen to one who tempts. The Devil would never attempt to convict anyone of sin. He would be ahouse divided against itself.
But notice how God didn't tell them to get naked again. He gave them better garments than they tried to make for themselves. What the Law does is that it exposes the sin that is within the flesh. It exposes a condition which man is not aware of until he tries to obey the Law. When that condition is discovered, God does not leave man in that condition, Jesus saves from sin by his Spirit and tells us not to walk by the Law but continue in the Grace that delivers from sin itself.
That is how man becomes conciliated in his mind to God. Sin causes suffering. God delivers man from sin by the washing, regeneration and rebirth of the Spirit. The devil tries to undo that work by tempting man to return to, and rebuild the sin that which was destroyed.
Quote from: Seth on October 02, 2014, 12:33:44 AM
But notice how God didn't tell them to get naked again.
That is my Point he clothed them so that they would not feel SHAME.
The Holy Spirit has shown me that I am CLOTHED.
He gave them better garments than they tried to make for themselves. What the Law does is that it exposes the sin that is within the flesh. It exposes a condition which man is not aware of until he tries to obey the Law. When that condition is discovered, God does not leave man in that condition, Jesus saves from sin by his Spirit and tells us not to walk by the Law but continue in the Grace that delivers from sin itself.
That is how man becomes conciliated in his mind to God. Sin causes suffering. God delivers man from sin by the washing, regeneration and rebirth of the Spirit. The devil tries to undo that work by tempting man to return to, The Law. So that the flesh might Glory and be worse off than before repentance.
and rebuild the sin that which was destroyed.
No longer being naked represents being clothed with Christ. Bring clothed with Christ means becoming a reflection of him on the earth. In other words, when people look at us, they should see a reflection of Christ because we are clothed with him, and therefore we walk as he walked. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that nakedness was not a desired state, even though it was how they were created. We are natural beings moving toward the spiritual. So rather than tell them not to be ashamed of their natural state, he gave them clothes. That represents being clothed with Christ rather than our own twigs and leaves (our own righteousness).
I am not arguing that those who walk in the Spirit should be walking in shame. What I am saying is that walking in the Spirit is to walk in obedience and therefore not to be doing things that would cause shame, like eating fruit we are told not to eat. Disobedience causes shame. Obedience removes shame.
Christ did not die so that rapists could rape without shame. He died to save us from being that way in the first place. People who rape without shame are sociopaths.
Now I say that as long as the heir is a child, he differs in no way from a slave, though he is the owner of everything. 2 Instead, he is under guardians and stewards until the time set by his father. 3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were in slavery under the elemental forces[a] of the world. 4 When the time came to completion, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5
to redeem those under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our
hearts, crying, "Abba, Father!" 7 So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don't go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you. 8 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment: 9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because He has set a day when He is going to judge the world in righteousness by the Man He has appointed. He has provided proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead."
There is no one righteous, not even one.
11
There is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12
All have turned away;
all alike have become useless.
There is no one who does what is good,
not even one.[h]
13
Their throat is an open grave;
they deceive with their tongues.
Vipers' venom is under their lips.[j]
14
Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.[k]
15
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16
ruin and wretchedness are in their paths,
17
and the path of peace they have not known.[l]
18
There is no fear of God before their eyes.[m]
19 Now we know that whatever the law says speaks to those who are subject to the law,[n] so that every mouth may be shut and the whole world may become subject to God's judgment.- 20 For no one will be justified[p] in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.
But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed—attested by the Law and the Prophets[q] 22 —that is, God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ,[r] to all who believe, since there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a propitiation[t] through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. 26 God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.[/color]
[/b]
You didn't really explain why you posted those scriptures. I see support for everything I have said in them.
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 09:08:09 PM
No longer being naked represents being clothed with Christ. Bring clothed with Christ means becoming a reflection of him on the earth. In other words, when people look at us, they should see a reflection of Christ because we are clothed with him, and therefore we walk as he walked. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that nakedness was not a desired state, even though it was how they were created. We are natural beings moving toward the spiritual. So rather than tell them not to be ashamed of their natural state, he gave them clothes. That represents being clothed with Christ rather than our own twigs and leaves (our own righteousness).
I am not arguing that those who walk in the Spirit should be walking in shame. What I am saying is that walking in the Spirit is to walk in obedience and therefore not to be doing things that would cause shame, like eating fruit we are told not to eat. Disobedience causes shame. Obedience removes shame.
Two men went up to the temple complex to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee took his stand[e] and was praying like this: 'God, I thank You that I'm not like other people[f] —greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth[g] of everything I get.'
Christ did not die so that rapists could rape without shame.
Both you and the Rapist enter the same way
He died to save us from being that way in the first place.
He did not die so that human beings would stop sinning.
People who rape without shame are sociopaths.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 09:33:22 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 09:08:09 PM
No longer being naked represents being clothed with Christ. Bring clothed with Christ means becoming a reflection of him on the earth. In other words, when people look at us, they should see a reflection of Christ because we are clothed with him, and therefore we walk as he walked. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that nakedness was not a desired state, even though it was how they were created. We are natural beings moving toward the spiritual. So rather than tell them not to be ashamed of their natural state, he gave them clothes. That represents being clothed with Christ rather than our own twigs and leaves (our own righteousness).
I am not arguing that those who walk in the Spirit should be walking in shame. What I am saying is that walking in the Spirit is to walk in obedience and therefore not to be doing things that would cause shame, like eating fruit we are told not to eat. Disobedience causes shame. Obedience removes shame.
Two men went up to the temple complex to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee took his stand[e] and was praying like this: 'God, I thank You that I'm not like other people[f] —greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth[g] of everything I get.'
Christ did not die so that rapists could rape without shame. He died to save us from being that way in the first place. People who rape without shame are sociopaths.
Brother, I think what you are missing is that the Pharisee was failing to love his brother, and therefore was actually in violation of the Law unlike he thought. The other man was ashamed of his sin and left justified for his humility. So one was disobedient and the other was obedient (repentance).
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 09:36:24 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 09:33:22 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 09:08:09 PM
No longer being naked represents being clothed with Christ. Bring clothed with Christ means becoming a reflection of him on the earth. In other words, when people look at us, they should see a reflection of Christ because we are clothed with him, and therefore we walk as he walked. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that nakedness was not a desired state, even though it was how they were created. We are natural beings moving toward the spiritual. So rather than tell them not to be ashamed of their natural state, he gave them clothes. That represents being clothed with Christ rather than our own twigs and leaves (our own righteousness).
I am not arguing that those who walk in the Spirit should be walking in shame. What I am saying is that walking in the Spirit is to walk in obedience and therefore not to be doing things that would cause shame, like eating fruit we are told not to eat. Disobedience causes shame. Obedience removes shame.
Two men went up to the temple complex to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee took his stand[e] and was praying like this: 'God, I thank You that I'm not like other people[f] —greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth[g] of everything I get.'
Christ did not die so that rapists could rape without shame. He died to save us from being that way in the first place. People who rape without shame are sociopaths.
Brother, I think what you are missing is that the Pharisee was failing to love his brother,(the rapist) and therefore was actually in violation of the Law unlike he thought. The other man was ashamed of his sin and left justified for his humility. So one was disobedient and the other was obedient (repentance).
so what if Jesus prefers a 'BLUSHING BRIDE"? ever notice the one blushing is mortified about it?
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 09:36:24 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 09:33:22 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 09:08:09 PM
No longer being naked represents being clothed with Christ. Bring clothed with Christ means becoming a reflection of him on the earth. In other words, when people look at us, they should see a reflection of Christ because we are clothed with him, and therefore we walk as he walked. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that nakedness was not a desired state, even though it was how they were created. We are natural beings moving toward the spiritual. So rather than tell them not to be ashamed of their natural state, he gave them clothes. That represents being clothed with Christ rather than our own twigs and leaves (our own righteousness).
I am not arguing that those who walk in the Spirit should be walking in shame. What I am saying is that walking in the Spirit is to walk in obedience and therefore not to be doing things that would cause shame, like eating fruit we are told not to eat. Disobedience causes shame. Obedience removes shame.
Two men went up to the temple complex to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee took his stand[e] and was praying like this: 'God, I thank You that I'm not like other people[f] —greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth[g] of everything I get.'
Christ did not die so that rapists could rape without shame. He died to save us from being that way in the first place. People who rape without shame are sociopaths.
Brother, I think what you are missing is that the Pharisee was failing to love his brother,(the rapist) and therefore was actually in violation of the Law unlike he thought. The other man was ashamed of his sin and left justified for his humility. So one was disobedient and the other was obedient (repentance).
I am not sure you realize how posting that scripture defeats your argument and I mean that with all due respect. The "rapist" as you put it above was justified because he was ashamed and didn't hide it.
I am not sure you realize how posting that scripture defeats your argument and I mean that with all due respect. The "rapist" as you put it above was justified because he was ashamed and didn't hide it.
That is because you don't see the Pharisee is the sociopath.
Law and shame brings you to repentance.
FAITH and the leading of the Holy Spirit removes shame.
When a person uses the Law to remove shame he turns out to be a sociopath
Quote from: sheila on October 03, 2014, 09:43:53 PM
so what if Jesus prefers a 'BLUSHING BRIDE"? ever notice the one blushing is mortified about it?
I thought the bride blushed because she was pure.
Virgin.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 10:23:20 PM
I am not sure you realize how posting that scripture defeats your argument and I mean that with all due respect. The "rapist" as you put it above was justified because he was ashamed and didn't hide it.
That is because you don't see the Pharisee is the sociopath.
You can only know what I think if you ask me. The Pharisee was not obedient. He only thought he was. He wasn't ashamed of his sins, and that is what left him unjustified.
The other man was justified precisely because he was ashamed and he repented, something which you seem to think is a bad thing. That completely defeats your argument.
QuoteLaw and shame brings you to repentance.
FAITH and the leading of the Holy Spirit removes shame.
When a person uses the Law to remove shame he turns out to be a sociopath
I believe one of the mistakes that Christianity makes is in associating with the law with obedience. Only the Holy Spirit can bring obedience not the law. The law actually holds people in disobedience so that the Savior can come and save them from sin. That is the whole point of Romans 7.
The Holy Spirit according to Paul in Titus 3, saves us from disobedience by the washing renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 10:27:10 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 03, 2014, 09:43:53 PM
so what if Jesus prefers a 'BLUSHING BRIDE"? ever notice the one blushing is mortified about it?
I thought the bride blushed because she was pure.
Virgin.
Yes, that's because they don't engage in fornication.
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 10:30:30 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 10:23:20 PM
I am not sure you realize how posting that scripture defeats your argument and I mean that with all due respect. The "rapist" as you put it above was justified because he was ashamed and didn't hide it.
That is because you don't see the Pharisee is the sociopath.
You can only know what I think if you ask me. The Pharisee was not obedient. He only thought he was. He wasn't ashamed of his sins, and that is what left him unjustified.
The other man was justified precisely because he was ashamed and he repented, something which you seem to think is a bad thing. That completely defeats your argument.
QuoteLaw and shame brings you to repentance.
FAITH and the leading of the Holy Spirit removes shame.
When a person uses the Law to remove shame he turns out to be a sociopath
I believe one of the mistakes that Christianity makes is in associating with the law with obedience. Only the Holy Spirit can bring obedience not the law. The law actually holds people in disobedience so that the Savior can come and save them from sin. That is the whole point of Romans 7.
The Holy Spirit according to Paul in Titus 3, saves us from disobedience by the washing renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
:iagree: Obedience does not remove shame We agree :gimmefive:
Repentance removes shame. Obedience removes the need for repentance. If you don't rape a woman you don't need to repent of it. See how that works?
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 10:35:44 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 10:27:10 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 03, 2014, 09:43:53 PM
so what if Jesus prefers a 'BLUSHING BRIDE"? ever notice the one blushing is mortified about it?
I thought the bride blushed because she was pure.
Virgin.
Yes, that's because they don't engage in fornication.
Whether they engaged in fornication is irrelevant (they probably did fornicate)
The bride has been made pure.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 10:45:47 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 10:35:44 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 10:27:10 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 03, 2014, 09:43:53 PM
so what if Jesus prefers a 'BLUSHING BRIDE"? ever notice the one blushing is mortified about it?
I thought the bride blushed because she was pure.
Virgin.
Yes, that's because they don't engage in fornication.
Whether they engaged in fornication is irrelevant (they probably did fornicate)
The bride has been made pure.
...by the washing, and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, no more fornication because the mind is changed. That's the essence of repentance.
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 10:43:50 PM
Repentance removes shame. Obedience removes the need for repentance.
Your obedience would have to exceed that of the Pharisee or you would still be a sociopath.
If you don't rape a woman you don't need to repent of it. See how that works?
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 10:49:09 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 10:43:50 PM
Repentance removes shame. Obedience removes the need for repentance.
Your obedience would have to exceed that of the Pharisee or you would still be a sociopath.
If you don't rape a woman you don't need to repent of it. See how that works?
You're only a sociopath if you have no regret for sinning against a brother. Repentance reveals humility, which God LOVES. Obedience means turning away from sin.
The Pharisee wasn't obedient in the first place, that's the point. The difference between the two men is that the publican knew his own sin, and the Pharisee did not. therefore one repented the other did not. One had shame and the other did not.
You keep associating the Pharisee with obedience, but it is the other way around. The Pharisee was a lawbreaker and proudly so. The publican was a sinner too, but he felt shame and repented.
Seth Says :Repentance removes shame.
Seth Says :Obedience removes the need for repentance.
So if you have no Shame you have no reason to repent.
If you are obedient you have no shame.
Your obedience is now the Clothing you are wearing.
And that clothing will get you kicked out of the wedding ceremony
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 11:08:07 PM
Seth Says :Repentance removes shame.
Seth Says :Obedience removes the need for repentance.
So if you have no Shame you have no reason to repent.
If you are obedient you have no shame.
Your obedience is now the Clothing you are wearing.
And that clothing will get you kicked out of the wedding ceremony
You are telling me that obedience to God gets you kicked out of his wedding? Listen to what you are saying. Jesus says "away from me ye who work iniquity" not "away from me ye who are obedient."
I believe you are mistaken in assuming that adherence to the Law makes us obedient. Walking according to the Spirit makes us obedient. The Pharisee was disobedient and the publican was the one who felt shame and repented was therefore obedient.
People who feel shame about sinning against a brother are not the ones who get kicked out of the wedding ceremony.
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 11:12:30 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 11:08:07 PM
Seth Says :Repentance removes shame.
Seth Says :Obedience removes the need for repentance.
So if you have no Shame you have no reason to repent.
If you are obedient you have no shame.
Your obedience is now the Clothing you are wearing.
And that clothing will get you kicked out of the wedding ceremony
You are telling me that obedience to God gets you kicked out of his wedding? Yes your obedience will not be accepted.
Christ's obedience is the only acceptable obedience. This obedience or wedding garment is given freely. But you have to give up your own obedience. Some still prefer there own garments. [/color] Listen to what you are saying. Jesus says "away from me ye who work iniquity" not "away from me ye who are obedient."
I believe you are mistaken in assuming that adherence to the Law makes us obedient. Walking according to the Spirit makes us obedient. The Pharisee was disobedient and the publican was the one who felt shame and repented was therefore obedient.
People who feel shame about sinning against a brother are not the ones who get kicked out of the wedding ceremony.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 01:52:40 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 03, 2014, 11:12:30 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 03, 2014, 11:08:07 PM
Seth Says :Repentance removes shame.
Seth Says :Obedience removes the need for repentance.
So if you have no Shame you have no reason to repent.
If you are obedient you have no shame.
Your obedience is now the Clothing you are wearing.
And that clothing will get you kicked out of the wedding ceremony
You are telling me that obedience to God gets you kicked out of his wedding? Yes your obedience will not be accepted.
Christ's obedience is the only acceptable obedience. This obedience or wedding garment is given freely. But you have to give up your own obedience. Some still prefer there own garments. [/color] Listen to what you are saying. Jesus says "away from me ye who work iniquity" not "away from me ye who are obedient."
I believe you are mistaken in assuming that adherence to the Law makes us obedient. Walking according to the Spirit makes us obedient. The Pharisee was disobedient and the publican was the one who felt shame and repented was therefore obedient.
People who feel shame about sinning against a brother are not the ones who get kicked out of the wedding ceremony.
Christ gives his obedience through the renewing and regeneration of the Spirit. Our own righteousness is by the Law. We have the righteousness of Christ because he lives through his people by the Spirit.
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
Hope does not put us to shame.
The Holy Spirit does not shame believers.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 02:17:33 AM
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
Hope does not put us to shame.
The Holy Spirit does not shame believers.
See that part about perseverance?
Check out Romans 2:6-8 for more about perseverance.
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 02:20:06 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 02:17:33 AM
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
Hope does not put us to shame.
The Holy Spirit does not shame believers.
See that part about perseverance?
You mean this part of Romans2
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself,
because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience,
not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 02:36:36 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 02:20:06 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 02:17:33 AM
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
Hope does not put us to shame.
The Holy Spirit does not shame believers.
See that part about perseverance?
You mean this part of Romans2
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
Well no it was the next three verses. These verses are describing the hypocrisy of those who trod the son of God underfoot. KEEP READING
Not everyone who believes has walked according to the Spirit. James made that call because he understood that the purpose of faith was to "have the love of God poured into our hearts by the Spirit." This is why he said "faith without works is dead."
That's the persistence Paul was talking about in Romans 2:6-7 which you didn't want to quote.
Sometimes words are insufficient.
There is a big difference between conviction and shame.
Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.
It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.
So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?
the bride blushes because she is naked before His all seeing eyes...and He being righteous covers that
nakedness with His own garment.
in the jewish mindset..the Bride is pure and sanctified by the marriage/union..o rcovering of her husband..
that is why it is 'granted' for her to be clothed in white[not of herself]......ever hear the term........
virgin daughter of Babylon? is that not an oxymoron?
He says...my people shall not be ashamed...because He covers them.....what takes the shame of nakedness
away like clothing?
Quote from: eaglesway on October 04, 2014, 09:40:57 AM
Sometimes words are insufficient.
There is a big difference between conviction and shame.
Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.
It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.
So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?
No what I am saying is what Paul said in Romans
He repeats it to make a point
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall, and the
one who believes in him will never be put to shame."
The meaning of shame, the definition of shame that I use is the one Paul uses.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 04, 2014, 09:40:57 AM
Sometimes words are insufficient.
There is a big difference between conviction and shame.
Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.
It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.
So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?
The bolded part is how I mean it. I think the publican clearly felt shame.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 07:19:12 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 04, 2014, 09:40:57 AM
Sometimes words are insufficient.
There is a big difference between conviction and shame.
Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.
It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.
So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?
No what I am saying is what Paul said in Romans
He repeats it to make a point
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."
The meaning of shame, the definition of shame that I use is the one Paul uses.
However, faith without works is dead.
Websters definition
1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety
b : the susceptibility to such emotion <have you no shame?>
2: a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : ignominy <the shame of being arrested>
2Thess 3
14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Quote from: sheila on October 04, 2014, 05:34:43 PM
the bride blushes because she is naked before His all seeing eyes...and He being righteous covers that
nakedness with His own garment.
in the jewish mindset..the Bride is pure and sanctified by the marriage/union..o rcovering of her husband..
that is why it is 'granted' for her to be clothed in white[not of herself]......ever hear the term........
virgin daughter of Babylon? is that not an oxymoron?
He says...my people shall not be ashamed...because He covers them.....what takes the shame of nakedness
away like clothing?
Adam and Eve hid at the idea of a Holy God looking upon their nakedness.
They did not have to trust that they were covered they wore the skins of the
animals God supplied.
It is still a very fearful thing to stand before a Holy God.
I am naked I was ashamed.
But the Holy spirit told me to believe that my nakedness was covered
God himself had supplied my covering.
Have FAITH go to him call him Abba.
The Holy spirit encourages me to go right into the throne room.
But I can't look at my own nakedness .
I must by no means what so ever cover myself.
The battle is for my mind I must go before HIM in faith.I must believe the Holy Spirit LOVES me and is not setting me up to expose me
and cause me to be too ashamed to go to the THRONE room.
MY father loves me and does not shame me.
His discipline is perfect.
QuoteThe battle is for my mind I must go before HIM in faith.I must believe the Holy Spirit LOVES me and is not setting me up to expose me
and cause me to be too ashamed to go to the THRONE room.
You are going beyond what I am actually saying. The above is a straw man. I never said that the Spirit "setting us up to expose us."
A feeling of shame is NATURAL for those who do horrible things, whether they are believers or not. People who feel NO shame about doing bad things to other people, believers or not, are called SOCIOPATHS by the psychology community. Jesus is not calling us to be sociopaths.
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 07:25:48 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 07:19:12 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 04, 2014, 09:40:57 AM
Sometimes words are insufficient.
There is a big difference between conviction and shame.
Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.
It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.
So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?
No what I am saying is what Paul said in Romans
He repeats it to make a point
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."
The meaning of shame, the definition of shame that I use is the one Paul uses.
However, faith without works is dead.
Yes, I hear this Seth ,
but Brother
its seems works without faith is just ''dead works'' right ?
Who does the works but the Lord Himself !!
Its the Spirit of Christ the true anointing that make the works greater because He went to the Father
and greater works will you do because I go the Father and what proof do we have in this the HOLY SPIRIT / GREAT CLOUD OF WITNESSES
For me its the Father & Son and Holy Spirit those gathered as His Holy ones and witnesses whom testify in the heavens to the righteousness of Jesus Christ ALIVE in the earth still :girlheart:
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 07:41:08 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 04, 2014, 05:34:43 PM
the bride blushes because she is naked before His all seeing eyes...and He being righteous covers that
nakedness with His own garment.
in the jewish mindset..the Bride is pure and sanctified by the marriage/union..o rcovering of her husband..
that is why it is 'granted' for her to be clothed in white[not of herself]......ever hear the term........
virgin daughter of Babylon? is that not an oxymoron?
He says...my people shall not be ashamed...because He covers them.....what takes the shame of nakedness
away like clothing?
Adam and Eve hid at the idea of a Holy God looking upon their nakedness.
They did not have to trust that they were covered they wore the skins of the
animals God supplied.
It is still a very fearful thing to stand before a Holy God.
I am naked I was ashamed.
But the Holy spirit told me to believe that my nakedness was covered
God himself had supplied my covering.
Have FAITH go to him call him Abba.
The Holy spirit encourages me to go right into the throne room.
But I can't look at my own nakedness .
I must by no means what so ever cover myself.
The battle is for my mind I must go before HIM in faith.I must believe the Holy Spirit LOVES me and is not setting me up to expose me
and cause me to be too ashamed to go to the THRONE room.
MY father loves me and does not shame me.
His discipline is perfect.
hI BRO D!!
Buy of me Jesus is the cure to all that ails us every one of us ,,,
Rev 3 17'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,"
and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
18
I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
19'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Brother Jesus paid it all and though His death we become heirs to know the glory of God and inherit all things that are His !!
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 07:32:26 PM
Websters definition
1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety
b : the susceptibility to such emotion <have you no shame?>
2: a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : ignominy <the shame of being arrested>
2Thess 3
14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, An unbeliever note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Quote from: rosered on October 04, 2014, 07:51:14 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 07:25:48 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 07:19:12 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 04, 2014, 09:40:57 AM
Sometimes words are insufficient.
There is a big difference between conviction and shame.
Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.
It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.
So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?
No what I am saying is what Paul said in Romans
He repeats it to make a point
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."
The meaning of shame, the definition of shame that I use is the one Paul uses.
However, faith without works is dead.
Yes, I hear this Seth ,
but Brother
its seems works without faith is just "dead works" right ?
Who does the works but the Lord Himself !!
Its the Spirit of Christ the true anointing that make the works greater because He went to the Father
and greater works will you do because I go the Father and what proof do we have in this the HOLY SPIRIT / GREAT CLOUD OF WITNESSES
For me its the Father & Son and Holy Spirit those gathered as His Holy ones and witnesses whom testify in the heavens to the righteousness of Jesus Christ ALIVE in the earth still :girlheart:
:iagree:
They are works of the Spirit within. For it is God in you both to will and to do of his pleasure.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 07:55:20 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 07:32:26 PM
Websters definition
1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety
b : the susceptibility to such emotion <have you no shame?>
2: a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : ignominy <the shame of being arrested>
2Thess 3
14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, An unbeliever note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Why are you changing the context?
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every
brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
That's what happens when brothers become verbally abusive on this forum. They get restricted or banned.
That's exactly what this epistle calls for.
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 07:45:48 PM
QuoteThe battle is for my mind I must go before HIM in faith.I must believe the Holy Spirit LOVES me and is not setting me up to expose me
and cause me to be too ashamed to go to the THRONE room.
You are going beyond what I am actually saying. The above is a straw man. I never said that the Spirit "setting us up to expose us."
A feeling of shame is NATURAL for those who do horrible things, whether they are believers or not. People who feel NO shame about doing bad things to other people, believers or not, are called SOCIOPATHS by the psychology community. Jesus is not calling us to be sociopaths.
Way back in this thread I asked
Does the Holy Spirit use shame to convict the believer of Sin?I do not believe that he does.
You seem to disagree, am I wrong
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 08:08:46 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 07:45:48 PM
QuoteThe battle is for my mind I must go before HIM in faith.I must believe the Holy Spirit LOVES me and is not setting me up to expose me
and cause me to be too ashamed to go to the THRONE room.
You are going beyond what I am actually saying. The above is a straw man. I never said that the Spirit "setting us up to expose us."
A feeling of shame is NATURAL for those who do horrible things, whether they are believers or not. People who feel NO shame about doing bad things to other people, believers or not, are called SOCIOPATHS by the psychology community. Jesus is not calling us to be sociopaths.
Way back in this thread I asked
Does the Holy Spirit use shame to convict the believer of Sin?I do not believe that he does.
You seem to disagree, am I wrong
And I still say yes. That does not mean that I think the Spirit "sets us up." The LAW brought a remembrance of sin. Who wrote that? God reveals sin to the sinner, and if they have a conscience, they feel shame. Then they repent.
Conviction and shame are the same thing. Your question is essentially "does the Holy Spirit use conviction to convict the believer of sin"
idk..there always seems to be an exception to every 'rule' can't help thinking of the legion possessed man
running around naked among the tombs,slashing himself -out of his ever-loving mind..not enough
sense about him..to be ashamed..I can't help but think Jesus and Father has that situation covered,too.
Love covers a multitude of sins
Yes, he was out of his mind.
Although, 6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
What would cause the man to say that?
The sense of shame I see in Romans 7 is of one who is carnal sold under sin and try to follow the law for salvation. One who cannot help but be carnal when he is under the Law, but still cries out for mercy from his condition.
Quote from: sheila on October 04, 2014, 08:39:59 PM
idk..there always seems to be an exception to every 'rule' can't help thinking of the legion possessed man
running around naked among the tombs,slashing himself -out of his ever-loving mind..not enough
sense about him..to be ashamed..I can't help but think Jesus and Father has that situation covered,too.
Love covers a multitude of sins
I believe your right Sis !!! excellent point taken , No cookie cutter god in any form or fashion ,,
the GOD ALMIGHTY , Knows how to save everyone of His children in every way , unimaginable ways even !!!
Will GLORY TO GOD in the Highest!!! :HeartThrob:
Also notice that Jesus didn't just save him from his personal feelings but from that which caused those feelings in the first place.
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 09:13:39 PM
Also notice that Jesus didn't just save him from his personal feelings but from that which caused those feelings in the first place.
Yes Bro Seth the wrong mind to the right mind :thumbsup: an unclean spirit is an unregenerate spirit not reforming or showing repentance; obstinately wrong or bad.
(Matthew 8:28-34; Luke 8:26-39)
1And they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gadarenes, 2and he having come forth out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3who had his dwelling in the tombs, and not even with chains was any one able to bind him,
4because that he many times with fetters and chains had been bound, and pulled in pieces by him had been the chains, and the fetters broken in pieces, and none was able to tame him,
5and always, night and day, in the mountains, and in the tombs he was, crying and cutting himself with stones.
6And, having seen Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed before him,
7and having called with a loud voice, he said, 'What — to me and to thee, Jesus, Son of God the Most High?
I adjure thee by God, mayest thou not afflict me!' 8(for he said to him,
'Come forth, spirit unclean, out of the man,')
9and he was questioning him, 'What [is] thy name?' and he answered, saying, 'Legion [is] my name, because we are many;'
10and he was calling on him much, that he may not send them out of the region.
11And there was there, near the mountains, a great herd of swine feeding,
12and all the demons did call upon him, saying, 'Send us to the swine, that into them we may enter;'
13and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth,
the unclean spirits did enter into the swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea — and they were about two thousand — and they were choked in the sea.
The question of the hour is this ,, Does the demonic exist ? or was the Lord just casting out an evil presence in this man so He could be saved ?
So much just about this causes great divisions in the religious and mystic masses
:HeartThrob: :iagree:
Much to consider for sure. From what I see, conviction of sin isn't the same as applying blame for the causation of sin. We were born into the flesh. I see conviction as a desire to move to the next level. To rise above the flesh mind.
I believe there is a subtle difference between the Holy Spirit convicting the believer of righteousness through faith.
Being convicted of righteousness leads to walking on the path of righteousness away from Sin
apart from sin.
If the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of Sin the believer needs to stop and repent until he feels no shame. Once he has done that he can continue on the path observing others on the path.
This path seems well worn. Yet they still don't know us by our LOVE
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 09:52:52 PM
I believe there is a subtle difference between the Holy Spirit convicting the believer of righteousness through faith.
Being convicted of righteousness leads to walking on the path of righteousness away from Sin
apart from sin.
If the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of Sin the believer needs to stop and repent until he feels no shame. Once he has done that he can continue on the path observing others on the path.
This path seems well worn. Yet they still don't know us by our LOVE
Yes Bro Daj!! that is it !! to be holy as He is holy is to be '' set apart '' from sin !!! look up'' Holy'' :thumbsup: i DO beleiev its is the workings of the Holy Spirit in us by faith in God to be able to go even this far :HeartThrob:
Quote from: dajomaco on October 04, 2014, 09:52:52 PM
I believe there is a subtle difference between the Holy Spirit convicting the believer of righteousness through faith.
Being convicted of righteousness leads to walking on the path of righteousness away from Sin
apart from sin.
If the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of Sin the believer needs to stop and repent until he feels no shame. Once he has done that he can continue on the path observing others on the path.
This path seems well worn. Yet they still don't know us by our LOVE
:iagree:
The Bible says once we give it to God, that's it, trust that he is faithful to forgive and cleanse.