In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)

[onesimus]

Jabcat says... (sorry, have not quite worked out how to quote someone's post when there are several quotes in there )...Although I agree in principle with much of it, I view the conclusions you come up with about the scriptures/letter/Spirit from a bit of a different angle than you describe above.  I believe this reference primarily means the letter of the Law, not the scriptures in general (written Word).  So I see this saying, Jesus is Spirit and we are to worship in spirit and truth - He has fulfilled the Law, is our Savior and Redeemer, so we no longer operate according to, are under, or teach, the Law.  So our relationship with Him now is based on the new covenant, grace and the work of the cross, not works of the Law (Spirit not letter [Law]).
[/quote]

I understand your angle and like it!  :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

I'm glad! 

----------------------

This thread has got me thinking about my own views and understanding on it.  Laying in bed this morning thinking about this, the idea that God didn't "want" or prefer the sacrifice, but instead wants mercy.  I think of course He wants mercy.  But I'm not sure the end of the Lord being merciful, and His heart being mercy, negates that it seems He still set things up this way, and yes, even required it (mystery, perhaps beyond understanding?).  How do all the scrips about God not wanting sacrifice, many of which are quoted earlier in this thread, reconcile with the following passage from Hebrews - which to me, seems to say God set it up that way, it was HIS plan (Christ, Lamb slain from foundation), and especially that it served a miraculous purpose [redemption]  beyond just giving us what we wanted and helping us "feel" better?   

So to me, it's obvious (and joyous) [and I accept nothing different] that God worked a miracle for all time at the cross, not just being a good example or "showing us love".  Beyond that, how do we reconcile "God didn't want it but acquiesced", with the following?  I'm honestly not totally clear on exactly how they reconcile, unless it's this - He prefers only mercy, but in His omniscience knows it had to be some other/a certain way so that's how He did it.    :Chinscratch:


Hebrews 9:12   But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.


[the "legal" transaction ("it is finished/paid in full")]  16 For where a will [legal will of inheritance] is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, [the miracle of the cross]  he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

[onesimus]

20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."

It was commanded for us ...I don't think the sacrifice was about God 'acquiescing' . It was his plan. It was his plan for man (sorry). Man's conscience fell too...he needed a way to deal with sin and guilt, otherwise how could he live? Many of the great men in the bible, like Moses, Abraham, and especially, David had a relationship with God that was based on faith. Faith sustained an ongoing relationship with the father, even at times when sin was involved. Faith allows for the covering of sin and even that sin not be taken into account (Romans 4).

But to the average guy, who didn't have that type of faith, sacrifice (and, in my view, the whole law) provided a way to live..

I agree that's not the whole picture. But I don't see God commanding sacrifice for himself.  It is all for us really. Everything. God is love. We are the objects of his love. His love is never self-seeking (like our love can be sometimes) (1 Corinthians 13)

[jabcat]

Sure it was for us.  It's the free gift.

But I don't believe that alone answers the question.  How does strictly doing it for us;  put away sin?  Secure eternal redemption?  Fulfill the Law?  And if He didn't "require" blood (without a better way to say it) how does the shedding of blood bring forgiveness of sins? 

Here's where I believe the whole "He only did it for us" POV " can begin to "break down", and IMO, has the potential to minimize the power of the cross.  I don't mean perceived doing away with sin, or perceived redemption, or perceived forgiveness...because I don't believe that's what the scriptures say.  They say it was indeed literally brought about by God's act of the sacrifice of His Son.  The cross did more than change our perception or ease our conscience.

[Seth]

Just to throw in a viewpoint to the mix, I don't think that forgiveness of past sins does away with the problem of sin as a destructive presence and force in someone's life. Forgiveness clears the slate of past sins and ushers man into a new covenant, but the problem of sin will continue until man grows in grace and the peaceable fruit of righteousness is realized through God's chastening.

[onesimus]

All of that is good :) Everyone has their own walk. ...On my journey, I have gradually come to understand that sin is over, because that which names and defines it is over...For me, the law did a wonderful job of leading me to the cross and then it got up on there with him..

I'd really like to curb any offense over this if possible, please, by stating that I have no problem with someone who still holds the law as dear and true in their life..

In my experience, the paradox of this truth, is that, as I have let go of law, many troublesome issues in my life, which I would have previously called 'sin' have not only run out of steam, they have vanished...In terms of what some might call 'morality' and 'righteous living' - although describing it in those terms is irksome to me - I live a life beyond my wildest dreams.   

[Seth]

If sin is over, then why are there heroin addicts, murders, rapists and child molesters in the world? Those things should not exist if sin is over.

[Seth]

In my humble opinion, I believe both ET and parts of UR have gone sideways due to a lack of teaching about why the Holy Spirit is so necessary for salvation. In ET, I was never taught that the Holy Spirit was necessary for salvation itself, just more of a side issue/benefit. That carried over into my UR belief, until the Roman 5:10 bell rang.

Now I believe that the Spirit is absolutely critical to salvation. And, I believe the Apostles hung the entire teaching of the new covenant on the necessity of the promise of the Spirit.

[onesimus]

If sin is over, then why are there heroin addicts, murders, rapists and child molesters in the world? Those things should not exist if sin is over.

I know its over for me and that takes faith, which many do not have, or they have it in lesser degrees..I guess each person needs to find out for themselves that the fight is over...I sometimes think the cross is like a rock thrown in the middle of a pond. It's done...but the ripples haven't all got to the shoreline.

[Seth]

What do you make of Apostle John's comment that if we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us? He also says that that if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive and cleanse us, but if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

[onesimus]

What do you make of Apostle John's comment that if we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us? He also says that that if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive and cleanse us, but if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

The verse isn't really a heavy one. 'Sin' (properly) means 'missing the mark'....Of course I miss the mark. But missing the mark might mean something different to me as it does to you. To me, for instance, I miss the mark when I allow myself to come under law, even one of the laws of the apostles..

Being dead to sin and sin being dead to me is a principle that, for me, depends upon my being dead to law and law being dead to me...

[Seth]

In Romans 2, Paul says that for those who have had a circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, the Law is written on their hearts, so in essence they are not lawless, but that the Spirit is their guide. But sin is lawlessness according to the Bible.

[onesimus]

I'm not lawless, I still have at least one law; it's called 'the perfect law of liberty' (somewhere in James)... That is not a joke and not meant to irritate you.

I believe everything has been done and I have peace, rest and freedom. Being free allows me to live how I want. Strangely, how I want to live happens to correspond to the highest points of the law.

I wrestled with the heaviness of sin and such things for 34 years...Many questions have been answered as I found the Lord in life as well as in the word. Sometimes the way we read the scriptures has a lot to do with where we are at.

Someone once said to me that the difference between a good interpretation of scripture and a better one is time..

Not that anything you hold to be true is wrong. Just that, as we go on in him, with each new stage of life also comes a new set of bible reading glasses..

[Seth]

No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you  believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?

[onesimus]

No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you  believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?

I believe James is speaking from the POV of a man who has found true freedom...

For me, the 'liberty' cannot be qualified by the words 'from sin' or 'to sin', because it includes both, the freedom to sin is the freedom to not sin. That's the point - for me.

I guess, without really spending much time looking at it, the word implanted is Christ...implanted when we believe it, perhaps.. I don't know if we can say exactly, like it is a  science...

I must go and look after some animals (daytime here)

thanks..

[eaglesway]

I'm not lawless, I still have at least one law; it's called 'the perfect law of liberty' (somewhere in James)... That is not a joke and not meant to irritate you.

I believe everything has been done and I have peace, rest and freedom. Being free allows me to live how I want. Strangely, how I want to live happens to correspond to the highest points of the law.

I wrestled with the heaviness of sin and such things for 34 years...Many questions have been answered as I found the Lord in life as well as in the word. Sometimes the way we read the scriptures has a lot to do with where we are at.

Someone once said to me that the difference between a good interpretation of scripture and a better one is time..

Not that anything you hold to be true is wrong. Just that, as we go on in him, with each new stage of life also comes a new set of bible reading glasses..

I think it is important to share our personal experiences in the Word and the Life. It takes time and conversation before we understand one another, especially when in a forum, where the process is much more limited than, for instance, face to face communication. We often dance around in futility because our understandings of words and the application of concepts connected to words can be different on the surface while being more closely aligned in what we actually hold in our hearts- and of course sometimes not aligned at all. The word of God is the equalizer. The scriptures and the Holy Spirit teach us and move us onward- but our interaction, discussion, etc. is very mucgh a part of that process.

The perfect law of liberty is the highest law. it is the end of all things, the consummation into which all creation will be set free from futility.

The perfect law of liberty is that I live for the Vine because I am grafted into the Vine by love, the life sap of the Vine. The commands that are tutors to lead us towards the perfect law of liberty are good and profitable in the Spirit(being pointers to the perfect law and evidences for those who walk in it.)

The elements of our midrash over the truth is based in the scriptures, properly translated and illuminated by the Spirit.

Our testimonies involve our personal perspectives and experiences, and are important but secondary to the scriptures.

That's why as difficult as it may be- we are to share our views as opinions on the forum, and not elevate our personal perspective above the level of discussion. Anything else leads to judging and strife and carnality of various degrees.

The medium is not up to any larger task than that which we are focused upon, the Salvation of All.

When one person says"law" or "command" he or she may fully understand the difference between the "law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul" in the larger context of "the perfect law of liberty"(obedience of faith and love). Another speaks the same words, trapped in legalism, thinking that salvation is by keeping a particular commandment, or group of them, or(God help them) all of them.

Between that gulf there are varying degrees of understanding and confusion.

We have to make sure we do not elevate our own testimony, and keep the conversation in the scriptures, as it is written,

Ro. 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly:

From my POV everyone who walks in the perfect law of liberty does so because they have been, "set free from futility" and has been converted from walking in progressive sin(selfishness) to walking in progressive righteousness(love for God and man).

Ro. 8:19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.......

....  And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.


The liberty is being filled with the divine nature. There is no liberty in the flesh.

:2c:

[Seth]

No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you  believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?

I believe James is speaking from the POV of a man who has found true freedom...

For me, the 'liberty' cannot be qualified by the words 'from sin' or 'to sin', because it includes both, the freedom to sin is the freedom to not sin. That's the point - for me.

I guess, without really spending much time looking at it, the word implanted is Christ...implanted when we believe it, perhaps.. I don't know if we can say exactly, like it is a  science...

I must go and look after some animals (daytime here)

thanks..

No problem talk to you soon.

The reason I asked the question is that in James 2 he says

James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers

In other words, it appears that James is saying that because the Word is implanted in us, it is able to save us from moral filth, and if so, if the law is written in our hearts, and we fail to love our neighbors  we become transgressors.

James is defining sin as acting without love.

[eaglesway]

No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you  believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?

I believe James is speaking from the POV of a man who has found true freedom...

For me, the 'liberty' cannot be qualified by the words 'from sin' or 'to sin', because it includes both, the freedom to sin is the freedom to not sin. That's the point - for me.

I guess, without really spending much time looking at it, the word implanted is Christ...implanted when we believe it, perhaps.. I don't know if we can say exactly, like it is a  science...

I must go and look after some animals (daytime here)

thanks..

No problem talk to you soon.

The reason I asked the question is that in James 2 he says

James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers

In other words, it appears that James is saying that because the Word is implanted in us, it is able to save us from moral filth, and if so, if the law is written in our hearts, and we fail to love our neighbors  we become transgressors.

James is defining sin as acting without love.

He is also describing love the perfect law of liberty as setting us free from sin. Anyone who has been set free loves his neighbor as himeself.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[Seth]

I definitely don't believe that James was teaching salvation from the concept of sin, but salvation from sin as in refusal to love as we have been loved of Jesus.

[onesimus]

No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you  believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?

I believe James is speaking from the POV of a man who has found true freedom...

For me, the 'liberty' cannot be qualified by the words 'from sin' or 'to sin', because it includes both, the freedom to sin is the freedom to not sin. That's the point - for me.

I guess, without really spending much time looking at it, the word implanted is Christ...implanted when we believe it, perhaps.. I don't know if we can say exactly, like it is a  science...

I must go and look after some animals (daytime here)

thanks..

No problem talk to you soon.

The reason I asked the question is that in James 2 he says

James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers

In other words, it appears that James is saying that because the Word is implanted in us, it is able to save us from moral filth, and if so, if the law is written in our hearts, and we fail to love our neighbors  we become transgressors.

James is defining sin as acting without love.

lol, the cows can wait a few minutes..I just wanted to post this..

Seth, Read the James verse in context:

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

James is offering the same argument as Paul (latter half of Romans 2) ie that the law is faulty, because if you break it in one point, you've broken it all...see verse 12 particularly...

Paul also summed up this in Galatians 2

"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18"For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God....

Check it out, verse 18 is talking about rebuilding what was destroyed (the system of law)...the NLV translates it.."Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down." It's a little crass but true

Eaglesway: Sorry, didn't mean to offend re the forum guidelines...Our own testimony is a very valid and scriptural way of 'bearing witness'....rev 12:20

Ill come back in a couple of hours :)

[Seth]

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

James is offering the same argument as Paul (latter half of Romans 2) ie that the law is faulty, because if you break it in one point, you've broken it all...see verse 12 particularly...

Paul was not saying the Law was faulty in Romans 2. He is saying that it is implanted in the hearts of those who are circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. It's the same point James makes when he says that if you follow the royal law "thou shalt love they neighbor" you do well, but if you don't then you become a transgressors.

That is why he says "speak and act as as those who will be judged by the law that brings liberty."

Both Paul and James preached that Gods law is implanted. God's people are not lawless, but that the Spirit causes their actions to be conformed to love without being under the letter of the Law.

[Seth]

John provides another way of saying it

1 John 3
4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

      11For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.

      13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him 20in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

      23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Sin is lawlessness. The failure to abide by his commandments is sin. In the new covenant, the commandments are, believe in Jesus and love one another. Again, just as with James, sin is acting outside of love.

[onesimus]

No problem, Seth. If these verses put wood in your stove and these commandments are working for you, then I am happy, my brother!

I liked the introduction to your website, too. What a wonderful story you have to tell!

[rosered]

 
Hi there   

  Oh my,,, the main confusion   sooooo   many have
I have heard  hard core preachers     rail on folks about sinning ,those    hell fire and brimstone preachers and teachers  , pick  certain   verses and  literally beat   you   to DEATH with them ....

Main verses,  if you say      you have    no sin you   lie  and  the  truth  IS NOT  in you  and the   answer is walk in the LIGHT  , and how to stay in the Light   , knowledge of God   though Christ by loving one another    than you have fellowship with God  , that seems to  cure the ill    of  sin  sickness   of the heart and spiritual blindness
  hard of hearing His Voice   etc.


My main  question    is  stumbling    in the WORD OF GOD , I know God can make you stand   even if you trip  many times over .
So those who think they have the seed in them do not actually   have it      when they do not    abide  /stay   in the Truth  ?



Here is all the scriptures     for me there is always a counter    , so the examining yourselves seems to a constant   looking for Christ within/ near  your heart    right ?




Walking in the Light
(John 8:12-30)

5This then is the message which we have heard from him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



   those born above of God  do not sin because the seed remains within their hearts ,

1John 1 ;3   

And behold how much the love of The Father abounds to us, that he has called us and also has made* us children; because of this, the world does not know us, because it does not know him.

2Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it has not been revealed until now what we are going to be, but we know that when he has been revealed, we shall be in his likeness, and we shall see him just as what he is


. 3And everyone who has this hope upon him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
4But whoever commits sin commits evil, for sin is entirely evil.

5And you know that he was revealed to take away our sins and there is no sin in him. 6No one who remains in him commits sin, and no one who sins has seen him, neither has he known him.

7Children, let no one deceive you; he who does righteousness is righteous even as The Messiah* also is righteous.

8He who commits sin is from Satan*, because Satan* is a sinner from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this reason: To destroy the works of Satan*

. 9No one who is begotten from God commits sin, because his seed is in him and he is not able to sin because he has been begotten from God.

10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of Satan: no one who does not do righteousness, neither loves his brother, is from God.

11For this is the commandment that you have heard from the first: "You shall love one another",

12Not like Cain who was from The Evil One and murdered his brother; and why did he murder him? Only because his works were evil and those of his brother were righteous.

13Do not be surprised, my brethren, if the world hates you.

14We know that we have departed from death into life by this: Because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother remains in death.


15For everyone who hates his brother murders a person, and you know that eternal life cannot abide in anyone who murders a person*.

16By this we know his love toward us, for he gave his Life in our place, and it is right for us also that we would give our lives for the sake of our brothers.

17Whoever has worldly possessions and sees his brother who has a need and withholds his compassion from him, how is the love of God in him?

18Children, let us not love one another with words and with speech, but in deeds and in truth. 19And by this we are made known that we are from the truth, and we assure our hearts before he comes*.

20For if our heart condemns us, how much greater is God than our heart? And he knows all things. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have boldness before God

. 22And we shall receive all the things that we ask from him, because we keep his commandments and we do good before him.

23And this is his commandment: that we believe in The Name of his Son, Yeshua The Messiah, and we should love one another, as he commanded us*. 24And whoever keeps his commandments is kept* by him and he dwells in him, and by this we perceive that he lodges in us, from his Spirit, that one whom he has given to us.

I see Seth has 1 John 3  as well  ,   If those    stay in hope and home  and rest  in hope   they do not have the challenges   of those whom  go  out  seeking  fellowship    with one another 
I say this by example    ,  I have had  2 others     two different  times   move in to our house  whom  say they   Believe and       NOW there is     another   new one  who wants to move in   who claims the Lord as well   , from those  first  two trials          evil was present   

from all of us        and I do not want to do this again !!!    HELP !

I do not think any of us can justify ourselves  ever   using scripture   either

One of the hardest things to do    is love everyone   all the time 

  Its not possible to do  because of the offenses  that come  and evil that rises up      in doing good   , Jesus proved it on that CROSS     !
  This dying to self   ,  is a    true test of faith   !!


But have found comfort  in the scriptures   in knowing now let your  YES , be YES and NO be NO  , anything  more   and EVIL IS PRESENT !!


4'And forgive us our sins even as we forgive all who are indebted to us, and do not lead us into temptation, but save us from The Evil One.'" *
and its the Lord whom can  keep us from temptation  / acting  in  doing evil   and   the guilt   and  regret after  and save us from the evil one   by praying   for  HIS  HELP!!

Does anyone know   how much   offspring of the Evil One  is in the world   ?
What of how many offspring of the CHRIST seed   remains ?

  Would not the offspring  of Christ  Seed   crush the evil one within you ?   
How about in others with that  evil    seed rising up    in them    crushing those heads   and bruising  the heels with the HOLY SEED of CHRIST  within your heart ?

But here is the thing   for me   here  , Jesus  also says    seeking rest finding none  in the water less   / famine stricken  places    for the WORD OF GOD
the dry,  being scorched  of heat    and   fire that Jesus said when He sets the world on fire by opening those seals    so judgment is in the earth

One is worse off   looking for places to rest  in fellowship  with others   when those   you  find   whom offspring /children are  being your judges ,  is this what Jesus is saying ???????   

Are the offspring / children of the Evil One   seed or Of Christ  seed    when they judge  you ?



. 17But because Yeshua knew their thoughts he said to them, "Every realm that is divided against itself will be laid waste,

and the home that is divided against its nature falls."

18And if Satan is divided against himself, how will his Kingdom stand?; for you say that by Beelzebub I cast out devils."

19"And if I am exorcising devils by Beelzebub, by whom are your children exorcising? Because of this they will be your judges."


20"But if I cast out devils by the finger of God, the Kingdom of God has come near to you."


21"Whenever an armed strongman keeps his homestead, his property is at peace."

22"But if one who is stronger than he will come to overpower him, he takes all his weapons in which he was trusting and he divides his spoil."

23"Whoever is not with me is against me and whoever does not gather with me is scattering."

24"Whenever a vile spirit has gone out from a man, it goes traveling around in places where there is no water to seek rest for itself;


Whenever it does not find it, it says, 'I shall return to my house from whence I came.' "

25"And when it has come, it finds it swept and decorated."

26"And it goes bringing seven others spirits which are more evil than itself, and they are entering and dwelling there, and the end of that man will be worse than his beginning."

Its this because of the   offspring of vipers   /children of the Evil One are judging you?   / So  you are carrying this  back home into  your home  /within you ??

and so the torment begins ??

It  is so easy to say and so very hard to do  , this is what I have found    in   tests
Like passing a     nursing exam  for example   , you ace it   or even pass with good marks ,       but when you actually have those   real LIFE challenges    and practice it    on the day to day    its overwhelming     , especially the unexpected   

Does anyone    else know this also,  as a truth ?