In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)

[Seth]

The word "dogma" was used as a response to my comment about how there are certain understandings, or teachings, that are the differences in paradigms of understanding. The word "dogma" is a highly emotionally charged word because it calls to mind Inquisitions and excommunications and church legalism.

But the bottom line, when you really look at what a dogma is, it's a belief that is held by an authority to be without question or doubt (incontrovertible). Putting aside the meaning of authority as with a church official or government, we are all authorities internally as to what we believe, I believe EVERYONE on this board have personal dogmas.

Is Christ come in the flesh? Yes or no? Are you willing to say no? I think not, because you know what spirit says no. If anyone holds ANY belief that they think is absolutely true, then that would be a personal dogma. Nobody would put it that way, because again, the word "dogma" has a bad brand, because of its relationship to church authority and abuses of the past.

I wouldn't use the word "dogma" either, but the issue brought up by Simon was whether we should commit to belief in absolute truths even if such committal necessarily would represent a division, at least in terms of belief. I never said division between people (ie love and friendliness), but if ANYONE holds to an absolute truth, the logical necessity results that he also holds that the opposite is absolutely false. That's a natural division in understanding, and I don't think anything is wrong with acknowledging it, which is why I agree with Jabcat.

[marie glen]

That's very good Seth! A very good summation! :smile: :smile:

.. :Chinscratch: how to be free to be strong in ones convictions without causing division.. i believe in the 'end' it will be a beautiful tapestry.. a blend of all true convictions..

truths to me, and for me, take two forms.. that which I believe from within, and that which I've learned from an outer source.. It's not that all outer source isn't accurate and can't become an inner conviction or that it shouldn't!.. but I think conviction comes from the first.. when within one's own heart and mind which we think of as from the Lord.. and we surely hope it is! I think often humans think in terms of either, or, when more accurately it is "and"..
         :smile:

[dajomaco]

 Seth Says
I never said that shame itself is the answer to sin. The Gospel message Peter preached was REPENT and be baptized.

If a rapist does so without shame, when will he repent?

Nobody repents of something they have no shame about.

I don't think Paul was ashamed of what he was doing.

The Spirit of God came upon him and he did a complete 180 (repented).

You believe that the Holy Spirit uses shame to bring someone to repentance.

Does the Holy Spirit use shame to help the believer in their walk.

[Seth]

Either one of us could have a belief on what Paul immediately felt. But neither of us would deny that Jesus first brought awareness of sin to Paul's attention in their encounter. The first words out of Christ's mouth was "why are you persecuting me?" I have pointed out scriptures where Paul indeed believed himself to be the lesser of the Apostles for his persecution of the church.

It's therefore a completely reasonable thing to do, if this is the model you use for the Gospel message, to say "Why are you molesting children? Why are you murdering people? Why are you raping women? REPENT and be baptized and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. Save yourselves from this untoward generation."

The awareness of sin has always been part of the Gospel message. If nobody has an awareness of sin, nobody has a reason to repent of it. In fact, this is what got Stephen killed. He took them to their own past and showed how stubborn they were traditionally, and how they are stubborn today. Then they killed him. His entire speech was based on their history with disobedience.

Whether or not a rapist actually FEELS shame is neither here or there with regard to the message. I maintain that a rapist who feels no shame after his sin is shown to him is probably a sociopath. But it's clear to me that the Gospel message contains the conviction of it.

[dajomaco]

Whether or not a rapist actually FEELS shame is neither here or there with regard to the message. I maintain that a rapist who feels no shame after his sin is shown to him is probably a sociopath. But it's clear to me that the Gospel message contains the conviction of it.

I agree the message of the Gospel should be delivered the same way.
To the rapist who has no shame
and to the rapist that has bag loads of shame,
and to the immature man with naughty thoughts.
All require the message of Grace through the sacrifice of Jesus.

When a believer feels shame is it the adversary messing with their mind
to distract them from Christ.
Or is it a result of the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin.

[Seth]

It really depends on how the son spends his inheritance, right?

[dajomaco]

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world todaY

Does the Holy Spirit use shame to guide the believer.

Shame on you. Is this the voice of the Holy Spirit or the voice of the adversary.

[Seth]

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world todaY

Does the Holy Spirit use shame to guide the believer.

Shame on you. Is this the voice of the Holy Spirit or the voice of the adversary.

Not only would I say that God could say those words to a believer who goes about raping women, I would say that the words would be heard as, "away from me, ye workers of iniquity."

BTW, the Holy Spirit teaching that I am referring to is an active saving power vs the teaching that personal belief in Christ isn't necessary for salvation, that salvation is an instantaneous passive reality rather than an active process.

[Seth]

BTW the adversary would probably never say "shame on you" for sin. He sins from the beginning. The question is, do you want to the works of Abraham or those of the adversary?

[jabcat]

I'm not staying in the middle of this one  :laugh: , but is this pertinent?

"I say this to shame you [to your shame]"...1 Corinthians 6:5

[dajomaco]

Wow , woke up   and read  these  3   in a very good  /fruitful conversation ,
  Just what I needed to hear  :HeartThrob:

I just remember    do not grieve the SPIRIT      or quench it !  The Spirit is LIFE ..

Something  spoke this morning  clearly   ,  saying   ,  We have  it  turned  around "
 
We are not to build  our brothers and sisters up in the Lord  Jesus Christ  ,
  but to build up the Lord  Jesus Christ in our brothers and sisters   !

   Its Focus and Eyes on Him 

Its Him in us , not us in Him .
  In  other words ,  do everything ,  and say  everything  as unto    DOING   IT   TO  the Lord Jesus Christ  HIMSELF  ..

If   we can see    Jesus Christ  in love and Spirit of Truth    moving and have our being     ,  the less  focus on the flesh  that is being  separated   and set apart
 
for Holiness unto the Lord  , those gifts   of the Spirit    are His and to be  ,good stewards  or Children of the Most High God    do Honor Him

Than    we   can  See Jesus  Christ     and has returned      again    and  come in the flesh /our flesh , these  earthly bodies   to dwell in   Emanuel .God with us .


John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

1 John 1:2
The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

We are not to build  our brothers and sisters up in the Lord  Jesus Christ  ,
  but to build up the Lord  Jesus Christ in our brothers and sisters   !

:iagree:
I find when discussing doctrines in regard to Sin.
There is not a whole lot of looking at HIM.


if we are faithless, He remains faithful,
for He cannot deny Himself.

[Seth]

 :laughing7:

James, I quoted that but it was never addressed.

[dajomaco]

I say this to your shame!
What Sin

[Seth]

Can you clarify?

[sheila]

v 7 the very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you are completely defeated already.

   

[dajomaco]

So if you have cases pertaining to this life, do you select those who have no standing in the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame!

Paul is saying in regard to NON spiritual matters this particular group
of believers should be ashamed for not judging these life matters in house. 

How is this an example of the Holy Spirit shaming some one.

[Seth]

I think you are missing the point. Paul is using shame for the purpose of conviction. I doubt he motivated by the adversary to do that. The adversary does not shame sinners, he encourages them.

[dajomaco]

Seth you are not required to answer .
Just say you don't want to answer.
Does the Holy Spirit use shame to convict the believer of Sin?

I do not believe that he does.
As it is written: Look! I am putting a stone in Zion to stumble over and a rock to trip over, yet the one who believes on Him will not be put to shame.

Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame,

For it is contained in Scripture: Look! I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and honored cornerstone, and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame!

I say this to our shame: We have been weak. But in whatever anyone dares to boast—I am talking foolishly—I also dare:

Both the man and his wife were naked, yet felt no shame.

They did how ever feel shame after they listened to the serpent and ate from the tree of knowledge.
God how ever clothed them.
I believe as believers we are clothed.

[Seth]

I don't mind answering. First I would point you to the OT understanding of faith which is "faithfulness." Were Adam and Eve faithful? It's funny you brought that up. Notice that the Serpent didn't shame them. He encouraged them to do that which brought about shame. It was when they noticed their nakedness that they sought to be clothed. It was God who gave them better garments. According to Romans 7, what does the Law bring awareness of? The very fact that Paul uses shame to encourage repentance reveals that it was done in older to KEEP them from being devoured by that lion.

[marie glen]

I believe as believers we are clothed.[/color]

...indeed! yet surely it is possible to feel sorrow and remorse for our being so removed from His perfection.. and for individual foolish, destructive, mean or embarassing things we've done.. (more and more I thing many, most? things have two poles and truth is somewhere in the middle) not that a believer needs to dwell on their past error or sins or to even think of them, as they are past, forgiven and as far as He is conderned, buried. But if they come to my mind, I feel for me, it is healthier to feel that sorrow or regret than to deny it or perhaps even try to 'shove' it down into my subconscious mind or perhaps avoid it..

I've heard it said and think i agree, that the further we go with God the more aware we are of our flaws and imperfection.. lowly mortal, flawed state.. but perhaps 'shame' in this case is not applicable.. but in the case of say a child abductor... I think it will take some washing of the Holy Ghost to wash away all consciousness of shame.. Or despots.. aka like Hitler, ever popular to consider.. though there have been many such.. I think on his day of realization it will not be easy to say oh well.. so it was..
- Even though it was God in control, choosing one, hardening another.. and allowing it to unfold thus, but there is still emotion.. and being smacked in the face with the reality of having harmed another.. Better to deeply repent.. always.. who says we cannot repent more than once.. these are, imo, deep psychological issues.. which I believe much of all God has done and chosen, is..

I better go to bed, this entirely too long winded! :))

[Seth]

I agree Marie. It's not that we should dwell on past sins which are forgiven.  :thumbsup:

Going forward is what I am talking about. If a believer does something horrible to another person, I believe conviction leads to repentance. I think total lack of shame would be not only unhealthy but may signify deep psychological issues.

I love your post as it describes a beautiful example of what it means to be humble.

[dajomaco]

Marie Says
I think it will take some washing of the Holy Ghost to wash away all consciousness of shame..

I whole heartily agree. :iagree:
How can the Holy Spirit both take shame away from the believer and add to it.

Seth
I don't mind answering. First I would point you to the OT understanding of faith which is "faithfulness." Were Adam and Eve faithful? It's funny you brought that up. Notice that the Serpent didn't shame them. He encouraged them to do that which brought about shame.

He encouraged them to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which by its very nature produces shame leading to death.


It was when they noticed their nakedness that they sought to be clothed. It was God who gave them better garments. According to Romans 7, what does the Law bring awareness of?
Death.

I believe the Holy Spirit leads believers toward the tree of Life (the Cross).
The adversary wants to keep the believer in bondage to the tree and knowledge of Death.

The very fact that Paul uses shame to encourage repentance reveals that it was done in older to KEEP them from being devoured by that lion.

Be serious! Be alert! Your adversary the Devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour. 9 Resist him and be firm in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are being experienced by your fellow believers throughout the world.
10 Now the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, will personally[f] restore, establish, strengthen, and support you after you have suffered a little.[g] 11 The dominion[h] belongs to Him forever. Amen.

[Seth]

Marie Says
I think it will take some washing of the Holy Ghost to wash away all consciousness of shame..

I whole heartily agree. :iagree:
How can the Holy Spirit both take shame away from the believer and add to it.

Seth
I don't mind answering. First I would point you to the OT understanding of faith which is "faithfulness." Were Adam and Eve faithful? It's funny you brought that up. Notice that the Serpent didn't shame them. He encouraged them to do that which brought about shame.

He encouraged them to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which by its very nature produces shame leading to death.

No it's sin that leads to death. The wages of shame is not death. The wages of sin is death.

It was when they noticed their nakedness that they sought to be clothed. It was God who gave them better garments. According to Romans 7, what does the Law bring awareness of?
Death.

The Law brings an awareness of sin. Listening to the adversary is to listen to one who tempts. The Devil would never attempt to convict anyone of sin. He would be ahouse divided against itself.

[dajomaco]

Marie Says
I think it will take some washing of the Holy Ghost to wash away all consciousness of shame..

I whole heartily agree. :iagree:
How can the Holy Spirit both take shame away from the believer and add to it.

Seth
I don't mind answering. First I would point you to the OT understanding of faith which is "faithfulness." Were Adam and Eve faithful? It's funny you brought that up. Notice that the Serpent didn't shame them. He encouraged them to do that which brought about shame.

He encouraged them to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which by its very nature produces shame leading to death.

Both the man and his wife were naked, yet felt no shame.

They felt shame after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ,
the same tree that produced death.
I am saying the fruit from the tree of Life,
is different from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and evil.
They would not have know shame if they had not eaten from that tree

No it's sin that leads to death. The wages of shame is not death. The wages of sin is death.

It was when they noticed their nakedness that they sought to be clothed. It was God who gave them better garments. According to Romans 7, what does the Law bring awareness of?
Death.

The Law brings an awareness of sin.
Then who brings awareness of the forgiveness of Sin,
surely not the Devil.
Listening to the adversary is to listen to one who tempts. The Devil would never attempt to convict anyone of sin. He would be ahouse divided against itself.

[Seth]

But notice how God didn't tell them to get naked again. He gave them better garments than they tried to make for themselves. What the Law does is that it exposes the sin that is within the flesh. It exposes a condition which man is not aware of until he tries to obey the Law. When that condition is discovered, God does not leave man in that condition, Jesus saves from sin by his Spirit and tells us not to walk by the Law but continue in the Grace that delivers from sin itself.

That is how man becomes conciliated in his mind to God. Sin causes suffering. God delivers man from sin by the washing, regeneration and rebirth of the Spirit. The devil tries to undo that work by tempting man to return to, and rebuild the sin that which was destroyed.