In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)

[jabcat]

To me;

there's nothing wrong with contending for sound doctrine.  In fact, we're told to do so.  So they's nothing inherently wrong with doctrine.

Where it can become problematic, IMO, is when we are critical, fault-finding, hateful, unkind to people.  I haven't seen anyone take such a stance in this thread, but rather, attempt to explore and present understanding of what the scriptures say.

So I believe it's accurate to say we can contend for sound doctrine, make distinctions, draw scriptural lines of understanding, say "the scripture says X,Y,Z, so that's the way it is", AND be loving, considerate, kind, esteeming others before ourselves.  I can say [theoretically - I never have actually done so directly to a person, but it would be factual] "the scriptures say believe on Jesus as Savior and you will be saved.  If you haven't done that, then you're not as yet saved".  That's not [necessarily] hateful, playing with doctrinal toys, searching out someone else's sin, etc., etc.  IMO, insisting that it is those things is just as short-sighted and out of kilter with the scriptures as actually being hateful and condeming is.  It's just 2 sides of the same coin, both off-target IMO.   I believe extremes can get off either direction.  Exclusively saying "sin, sin, sin"  or "just love, love, love", either one can become just so much unhelpful noise.   Why can't we find the balance of rightly dividing the WHOLE?

I believe that would look like "speaking the truth in love".   Nothing wrong with speaking the truth.  Season it with love.  No other explanations needed, if we want to be scriptural.   :2c:

[Tom]

Amen, brother.

[onesimus]

No rebuke of u Seth :) I quoted you, quoting someone else, who was defining (yet) another line...

Here, I rebuke 'dividing lines' and I rebuke dogma! ( in Yeshuas name!)


Sure, Jabcat...I hear you say there is nothing wrong with contending for sound doctrine! Here I am contending..

Sound doctrine makes peace, does not divide, destroys the lines of enmity...we all 'know in part' until that which is 'perfect' comes...

Love is perfect doctrine...

It's not any one person's wrong - it is the historical fault of the body of Christ...we cannot continue to set up lines of distinction and difference between ourselves because when we do we exalt our doctrine above the crucified Christ..

My prayer used the royal 'we', too..

The reason dogma falters for us is because it opposes our need and ability to live in the spirit.

Jesus said, my words are 'spirit'. And we are those born of 'water' and the 'spirit'.

Dogma is inflexible. The spirit (which means 'wind') and water must flow as the most essential part of their nature.

Both wind and water can flow in one direction one day and the opposite direction the next day.

When we 'define lines' and insist on a dogmatic view (for ourselves, others or both) we confine the spirit to only one direction..

Love can only thrive in the spirit and in water...it breaks the banks of division and can flow in any direction.

We are not adherents of a doctrinal system , we are those clinging to and living within a real live person; Jesus Christ!

He is truth and he is love :)

Love is truth

[Seth]

No rebuke of u Seth :) I quoted you, quoting someone else, who was defining (yet) another line...

Here, I rebuke 'dividing lines' and I rebuke dogma! ( in Yeshuas name!)

Seems to me that the phrase "dividing line" became an emotional trigger. For a while, I used to see UR like Carlton Pearson (and bless him for the severe trial he went through to change his doctrine in the face of so much opposition. I have the highest respect for the man in that respect), but then when I joined Tentmaker, I started to see other scriptures and I had to tell myself that maybe there were things I didn't quite understand yet, even though I was at least confident in the ultimate salvation of all. So my understanding evolved based on things I was seeing about sin and what causes salvation and future judgment etc which were in the scripture. But, I would have no problem having coffee and being friends with people who see things differently. My dad believes in ET. I don't let "dogma" stop me from seeing him. When I say "dividing line" I just mean difference in paradigm.

[onesimus]

I don't know anything about this man and I don't rebuke him either. The 'defining line creed' is the  favorite pastime of the traditional and historical church...

What I say to the church is: "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got."

We keep on doing the same thing expecting a different result..

It is often the case, whichever angle people see God from, that there is some inherent need to define themselves by emphasizing and highlighting the difference between themselves and others..It becomes the definer.  Love gets an afterthought - as every 'dividing line' is punctuated with a PS: "Oh, but we love them."

Take this particular dividing line for instance; the one in question that  crinkled my forehead and started my post..I see how those who believe that 'all are saved' are right and yet I see how those who believe that it is yet to happen are right....

Why not let both be right...why use words that exlude..

And what a reason to rejoice - because people are either saved or they are going to be!

10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house ] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Paul said to speak the same thing , having the same mind and judgement. The 'same thing' was that there be no divisions among you..'words of wisdom are blah blah blah in light of the cross..'

We will NEVER have unity based on our own doctrinal take on things...

I want to do something different...I want to learn how to live with opposites

Here's one thing that there have been very view divisions over. The cross. Even those dreaded catholics have got the cross..lol. All our divisions are over things that are written...the letter kills..

If we had one thing in common it would be the cross...and that's where the power and love is found that we desperately need..

[jabcat]

Sure, Jabcat...I hear you say there is nothing wrong with contending for sound doctrine! Here I am contending..

Sound doctrine makes peace, does not divide, destroys the lines of enmity...we all 'know in part' until that which is 'perfect' comes...

Love is perfect doctrine...

we cannot continue to set up lines of distinction and difference between ourselves because when we do we exalt our doctrine above the crucified Christ..

Love is truth...

onesimus, we may be mostly having a common computer/black and white attempt at communication that is faltering to truly be clear of what each believes/understands.  That said, I'll go ahead and post this, and you can deny, clarify, or take the 5th.

What do you actually mean by this?  "Love is truth, love is perfect doctrine, we cannot set up lines of distinction"?   Are you saying if we love, then nothing else matters?  That's kind of what it sounds like, could you please confirm or clarify?  Are you saying there is no distinction made in the scriptures - so therefore we should ignore anything related - between lightness and darkness, the works of the adversary and the works of the Savior, children of God and children of the devil, believers and unbelievers, etc., etc.?  I believe the scriptures are full of such distinctions and yes, "lines".  It's part of the truth.  Otherwise, IMO, we can wander around like ostriches sticking our heads in the sand, and end up with an "I'm OK, you're OK, anything goes" theology.  I see it as part of not being led away by or a purveyor of deceit, as well as being wise as serpents but harmless as doves.  So again, what are you saying if it's not "love is all there is"?  I personally believe love and the cross are the most important things, but that within and saturated with those things is much else in the scrips for our instruction.  Salt and light and all that...  If I'm misunderstanding you, please clarify?  Thanks, James.

[jabcat]

p.s.  re-reading;

you said "why can't both be right"?  because sometimes, imo, the scriptures are very clear.  so in such cases, "living with opposites" can be not speaking the truth in love.  in that scenario, one may have only half the equation.    may have love, but not truth.  or may have "truth" [otherwise sound doctrine] but no [expressed] love.

i honestly don't think we can scripturally have it both ways in many areas.  as an example, either someone's saved or they're not.  and i believe we ought to know the difference and how it occurs and what people need to do to be saved, and be able to tell them (absolutely! in love, concern, kindness - always!).  because the scriptures spell it out, and we're given the message of reconciliation.  so what are we telling them?  "everyone's right"?

[onesimus]

Sure, Jabcat...I hear you say there is nothing wrong with contending for sound doctrine! Here I am contending..

Sound doctrine makes peace, does not divide, destroys the lines of enmity...we all 'know in part' until that which is 'perfect' comes...

Love is perfect doctrine...

we cannot continue to set up lines of distinction and difference between ourselves because when we do we exalt our doctrine above the crucified Christ..

Love is truth...

onesimus, we may be mostly having a common computer/black and white attempt at communication that is faltering to truly be clear of what each believes/understands.  That said, I'll go ahead and post this, and you can deny, clarify, or take the 5th.

What do you actually mean by this?  "Love is truth, love is perfect doctrine, we cannot set up lines of distinction"?   Are you saying if we love, then nothing else matters?  That's kind of what it sounds like, could you please confirm or clarify?  Are you saying there is no distinction made in the scriptures - so therefore we should ignore anything related - between lightness and darkness, the works of the adversary and the works of the Savior, children of God and children of the devil, believers and unbelievers, etc., etc.?  I believe the scriptures are full of such distinctions and yes, "lines".  It's part of the truth.  Otherwise, IMO, we can wander around like ostriches sticking our heads in the sand, and end up with an "I'm OK, you're OK, anything goes" theology.  I see it as part of not being led away by or a purveyor of deceit, as well as being wise as serpents but harmless as doves.  So again, what are you saying if it's not "love is all there is"?  I personally believe love and the cross are the most important things, but that within and saturated with those things is much else in the scrips for our instruction.  Salt and light and all that...  If I'm misunderstanding you, please clarify?  Thanks, James.

Hi James, I'm Simon - what great namesakes we both have! :gimmefive:

Maybe my post above clarified a little more where I am coming from..

The word is a 'lamp unto my feet' - in other words it illuminates where I am at. I share from where I am at at present. I think we all do.

All these questions are good but I cannot answer them all. To me, it is that God is love and that love conquers all - even when we lay down and die, or even worse, let someone else be right...lol

The early church turned the world upside down and were really 'one.' They did not have these NT books. In fact, many would have hardly had any knowledge of any written scriptures at all.

We have unimaginable bible resources. Yet, we have 40,000 distinct formal divisions. In comparing the world to the church, one has to wonder who is being turned upside down...

I'm saying that truth is a person and to know it is to know the person. When Paul spoke of divisions (see above post) he said he determined to know no one other than 'Christ and Him crucified.'

We have turned the mere written words  into a religion that kills and divides. I want to know just Christ and his cross and I want to learn to love with that (him)...

I felt to come here to this site and express some of these things here...it is in love..

[onesimus]

p.s.  re-reading;

you said "why can't both be right"?  because sometimes, imo, the scriptures are very clear.  so in such cases, "living with opposites" can be not speaking the truth in love.  in that scenario, one may have only half the equation.    may have love, but not truth.  or may have "truth" [otherwise sound doctrine] but no [expressed] love.

i honestly don't think we can scripturally have it both ways in many areas.  as an example, either someone's saved or they're not.  and i believe we ought to know the difference and how it occurs and what people need to do to be saved, and be able to tell them (absolutely! in love, concern, kindness - always!).  because the scriptures spell it out, and we're given the message of reconciliation.  so what are we telling them?  "everyone's right"?

Either a person is saved  or they are not may seem black and white to you and me, but what about the way God sees it - from where he views, we are already seated with him in heavenly places. Is it difficult to see how God might have already saved a person, by the cross, and as yet, in our limited view, it has also not transpired yet. God is not bound by this timeline and neither is the cross (the lamb slain before the foundation of the world). These things aren't simple. I'd prefer to see both camps..

As for what to tell people who have not come to know Jesus yet? I can only say that, in many cases, whatever we tell them they are unlikely to hear for the noise of our  squabbles..

[Seth]

Unity is not my utmost concern, but what is true. Jesus himself said that he came not to bring peace but a sword. That sword divides. While you are fine living with opposites, I believe in finding what is true and what is not true. I know that unity will come eventually, but it will come by knowing the truth. If we want to know the truth, we need to know Christ.

But Christ said stuff. He said things which are true, and the opposite of which is not true. So, no, I cannot live with the opposite of what he said. Jesus did not preach a message of unity. He said "if they hated me, they will hate you too." But he didn't say "agree with their doctrines of Law keeping and Messiah disavowal so you can have unity"

[jabcat]

p.s.  re-reading;

you said "why can't both be right"?  because sometimes, imo, the scriptures are very clear.  so in such cases, "living with opposites" can be not speaking the truth in love.  in that scenario, one may have only half the equation.    may have love, but not truth.  or may have "truth" [otherwise sound doctrine] but no [expressed] love.

i honestly don't think we can scripturally have it both ways in many areas.  as an example, either someone's saved or they're not.  and i believe we ought to know the difference and how it occurs and what people need to do to be saved, and be able to tell them (absolutely! in love, concern, kindness - always!).  because the scriptures spell it out, and we're given the message of reconciliation.  so what are we telling them?  "everyone's right"?

Either a person is saved  or they are not may seem black and white to you and me, but what about the way God sees it - from where he views, we are already seated with him in heavenly places. Is it difficult to see how God might have already saved a person, by the cross, and as yet, in our limited view, it has also not transpired yet. God is not bound by this timeline and neither is the cross (the lamb slain before the foundation of the world). These things aren't simple. I'd prefer to see both camps..

As for what to tell people who have not come to know Jesus yet? I can only say that, in many cases, whatever we tell them they are unlikely to hear for the noise of our  squabbles..

The best I have as to "how God sees it" is what the scriptures tell us, revealed by His Spirit.  As I understand, the ones seated with Him in heavenly places are believers, the called out ones, those given faith to trust in Him as Savior.

What are we told to tell them?  I believe what the jailers were told - believe and confess and you will be saved.  If the Holy Spirit is drawing that person and it's their time, despite each of our own unique faults, I believe they will hear.

[onesimus]

Unity is not my utmost concern, but what is true. Jesus himself said that he came not to bring peace but a sword. That sword divides. While you are fine living with opposites, I believe in finding what is true and what is not true. I know that unity will come eventually, but it will come by knowing the truth. If we want to know the truth, we need to know Christ.

But Christ said stuff. He said things which are true, and the opposite of which is not true. So, no, I cannot live with the opposite of what he said. Jesus did not preach a message of unity. He said "if they hated me, they will hate you too." But he didn't say "agree with their doctrines of Law keeping and Messiah disavowal so you can have unity"

Jesus, who said 'I did not come to bring peace' was the one who also said, 'my peace I leave with you'..

Jesus said 'I came to bring a sword' also said 'if you live by the sword you die by the sword..'

These 'seem' as opposites..because they are for different people, different times and different situations. The blessing is found in knowing and hearing what God is speaking to me now and letting it be different for someone else.

Living with 'seeming' opposites is not something I am necessarily fine with - but it is what allows my love for others to grow and become stronger.

Jesus did mean for us to be in unity, which is why he asked God to make us all one..(John 17:21) . The amazing promise of this is that the world will know God has sent the son..

He also said that if we love one another the world will know that we are his disciples..

It isn't getting (finally) our doctrine sorted out when the world will get it..Unless being of the 'same mind' is love..

See his cross afresh and see how the lines that we draw between ourselves and others are abolished..

Ephesians 2:15; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself one new man, so making peace. [/b]

[jabcat]

I'm not looking anything up here, so if these are not legitimate points, OK.

But in the same vein as you suggest, "different times/places", etc.;

When Jesus prayed for "them" to be made one, I believe primarily He was praying for the 12.  Elsewhere He, and also Paul and others were clear there would be divisions, some would need to be even put out from the assembly etc.  I believe there is a good study to be had on unity, what it means and how it's attained, etc. but I don't think it's totally explained here.

Also, in the Ephesians scrip, I'd suggest (without looking) that may be talking about Law, the new covenant, being IN Christ, i.e., those given faith to believe in this age, our standing (as believers) in Christ?  I'll check it more later.

[Seth]

Unity is not my utmost concern, but what is true. Jesus himself said that he came not to bring peace but a sword. That sword divides. While you are fine living with opposites, I believe in finding what is true and what is not true. I know that unity will come eventually, but it will come by knowing the truth. If we want to know the truth, we need to know Christ.

But Christ said stuff. He said things which are true, and the opposite of which is not true. So, no, I cannot live with the opposite of what he said. Jesus did not preach a message of unity. He said "if they hated me, they will hate you too." But he didn't say "agree with their doctrines of Law keeping and Messiah disavowal so you can have unity"

Jesus, who said 'I did not come to bring peace' was the one who also said, 'my peace I leave with you'..

Jesus said 'I came to bring a sword' also said 'if you live by the sword you die by the sword..'

These 'seem' as opposites..because they are for different people, different times and different situations. The blessing is found in knowing and hearing what God is speaking to me now and letting it be different for someone else.

Living with 'seeming' opposites is not something I am necessarily fine with - but it is what allows my love for others to grow and become stronger.

Jesus did mean for us to be in unity, which is why he asked God to make us all one..(John 17:21) . The amazing promise of this is that the world will know God has sent the son..

He also said that if we love one another the world will know that we are his disciples..

It isn't getting (finally) our doctrine sorted out when the world will get it..Unless being of the 'same mind' is love..

See his cross afresh and see how the lines that we draw between ourselves and others are abolished..

Ephesians 2:15; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself one new man, so making peace. [/b]

Loving each other and disagreeing on doctrine in a discussion board are not mutually exclusive. I think you are conflating that issue.

If there hadn't been disagreement on doctrine, I would still be an ETer. I am blessed that God provided someone who was willing to argue with the predominant eternal damnation doctrine. You certainly wouldn't have been able to help me because what you want is unity and I needed truth.

[onesimus]

[/quote]

...You certainly wouldn't have been able to help me because what you want is unity and I needed truth.
[/quote]

What I needed yesterday is maybe not the same as what I need today... This is dogma's great deception...It is yesterdays word for us packaged into today's dogma...We can become so hooked on it that it can blind us from what God might be saying today...This is why Jesus said his words are spirit...

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

For me, I need to be less concerned about yesterday and tomorrow and hear what the spirit would blow (say) today, here and now...Being fixed on dogmatic belief systems instead of the person of Christ is what leads us into religion.

[Seth]

Define "dogma" if you could.

[Seth]

Here is a definition from websters: : a belief or set of beliefs that is accepted by the members of a group without being questioned or doubted

Isn't that what we do here? Question? Do you know why church authorities create dogma? To enforce unity!

[onesimus]

A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true

That's a dictionary definition

In the bible it was the way the Judaic experts in the law interpreted the torah and delivered it to the Jews..

The church has kind of replicated this system..I mean, the doctrine of endless damnation is your classic example. Eternal hell is dogma in the church and the truth of Universal Salvation cannot be heard because of it..It blocks our hears and eyes from seeing something that may be different..

That's a little example...but the principal operates throughout our own walk with the Lord..We build up a cache of beliefs and, in a way, they become our version of God, often dogmatically...then he has to fight to be heard if his word for us is new or different..

[Seth]

A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true

That's a dictionary definition

In the bible it was the way the Judaic experts in the law interpreted the torah and delivered it to the Jews..

The church has kind of replicated this system..I mean, the doctrine of endless damnation is your classic example. Eternal hell is dogma in the church and the truth of Universal Salvation cannot be heard because of it..It blocks our hears and eyes from seeing something that may be different..

That's a little example...but the principal operates throughout our own walk with the Lord..We build up a cache of beliefs and, in a way, they become our version of God, often dogmatically...then he has to fight to be heard if his word for us is new or different..

Are you telling us you don't hold to anything that is inconvertably true? Is Jesus come in the flesh?

[onesimus]

lol...u got that from a dictionary definition...nothing i said..

Now you have me pegged as a gnostic..lol

Of course there's stuff that's absolutely true - that's not in any way the context..

Anyway, time marches, I've got animals that need some dogmatic love and attention..

great talk!

PS: it's good what you all do here...that's not the context from my end either..

[Seth]

Of course there's stuff that's absolutely true

I agree.

[onesimus]

PPS: JUst in case you're still wondering..

Yes, Jesus came in the flesh!  :declare:

Yes and amen to that my brother! 

[Seth]

Take care of those cows  :icon_jokercolor:

[rosered]

Wow , woke up   and read  these  3   in a very good  /fruitful conversation ,
  Just what I needed to hear  :HeartThrob:

I just remember    do not grieve the SPIRIT      or quench it !  The Spirit is LIFE ..

Something  spoke this morning  clearly   ,  saying   ,  We have  it  turned  around ''
 
We are not to build  our brothers and sisters up in the Lord  Jesus Christ  ,
  but to build up the Lord  Jesus Christ in our brothers and sisters   !

   Its Focus and Eyes on Him 

Its Him in us , not us in Him .
  In  other words ,  do everything ,  and say  everything  as unto    DOING   IT   TO  the Lord Jesus Christ  HIMSELF  ..

If   we can see    Jesus Christ  in love and Spirit of Truth    moving and have our being     ,  the less  focus on the flesh  that is being  separated   and set apart
 
for Holiness unto the Lord  , those gifts   of the Spirit    are His and to be  ,good stewards  or Children of the Most High God    do Honor Him

Than    we   can  See Jesus  Christ     and has returned      again    and  come in the flesh /our flesh , these  earthly bodies   to dwell in   Emanuel .God with us .


John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

1 John 1:2
The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

 

[marie glen]

Something  spoke this morning  clearly   ,  saying   ,  We have  it  turned  around "
 
We are not to build  our brothers and sisters up in the Lord  Jesus Christ  ,
  but to build up the Lord  Jesus Christ in our brothers and sisters   !

wow! that is so true!! yet I never thought about it that way!  :dsunny:

("dogma")

Here is a definition from websters: : a belief or set of beliefs that is accepted by the members of a group without being questioned or doubted

   ...did the denominations form by rejecting, rethinking dogma..? But then it's funny how they went and created their own set of dogma.. some old, some new..

One thing for sure.. "hell" is very entrenched! Isn't that odd? A "stronghold" for sure..

I think of untruths strongly held, as strong delusions.. sometimes (usually?) ridiculous! but with enough thread of truth to hold the fabric of it together..?

...the greatest ones in the world: [where did they come from??]

hell (profoundly changes the perception of God! :sigh: )

evolution as to origins (most of the world's strongly held untruths rest on this one?)

death as another dimension of life (imo anyway) -- which makes a place of eternal punishment necessary - i spent some  time years ago investigating the original source in history of fire and the underworld

no reconciliation/repentance possible after death..

law mixed with grace needed

I'm sure there's more.. (just thinking out loud! God bless!)

I suppose we all want a set of truths.. a framework of reality.. I know I do! :)