In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)

[dajomaco]

:thumbsup:

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


But if we ourselves are also found to be "sinners" while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not!

If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[Seth]

:thumbsup:

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


But if we ourselves are also found to be "sinners" while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not!

If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make, but when I look at the context of those verses I see that we need to continue walking in the Spirit and when we sin, and we confess, God will be faithful to forgive and cleanse us.

[dajomaco]

:thumbsup:

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


But if we ourselves are also found to be "sinners" while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not!

If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make, but when I look at the context of those verses I see that we need to continue walking in the Spirit and when we sin, and we confess, God will be faithful to forgive and cleanse us.

he cannot sin,

[Seth]

Did you read the whole chapter?

[dajomaco]

:thumbsup:

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit
I think there is a lack of Spirit filled teachers.
and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel
You say there is a dividing line between UR believers and the early church.
I am not a UR believer or represent UR believes.
I a m just a forum member(brother) posting and responding to interesting
posters (brother) as you are one.

and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.

Could you please tell me what is the dividing line that you see.

[Seth]

I asked if you read the whole chapter.

[dajomaco]

3 1 Look at how great a love[a] the Father has given us that we should be called God's children. And we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it didn't know Him.  2 Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him because we will see Him as He is.  3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself just as He is pure.

4 Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law.  5 You know that He was revealed so that He might take away sins,[c] and there is no sin in Him.  6 Everyone who remains in Him does not sin;[d] everyone who[e] sins has not seen Him or known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.  8 The one who commits[f] sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil's works.  9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin,[g] because His[h] seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.  10 This is how God's children—and the Devil's children—are made evident.

The Command to Love

Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother.  11 For this is the message you have heard from the beginning: We should love one another,  12 unlike Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered[j] his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil, and his brother's were righteous.  13 Do not be surprised, brothers, if the world hates you.  14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.  15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Love in Action

16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.  17 If anyone has this world's goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his need—how can God's love reside in him?

18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.  19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,  20 even if our conscience condemns us, that God is greater than our conscience, and He knows all things.

21 Dear friends, if our conscience doesn't condemn us, we have confidence before God  22 and can receive whatever we ask from Him because we keep His commands and do what is pleasing in His sight.  23 Now this is His command: that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another as He commanded us.  24 The one who keeps His commands remains in Him, and He in him. And the way we know that He remains in us is from the Spirit He has given us.

[dajomaco]

 Now this is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you: God is light, and there is absolutely no darkness in Him.  6 If we say, "We have fellowship with Him," yet we walk in darkness, we are lying and are not practicing[c] the truth.  7 But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.  8 If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say, "We don't have any sin," we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

[dajomaco]

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make, but when I look at the context of those verses I see that we need to continue walking in the Spirit and when we sin, and we confess, God will be faithful to forgive and cleanse us.

So as long as we confess our sins we're good to go?

[Seth]

By what you posted, which anyone can read for themselves, is that sinning is breaking the law (lawlessness), but John defines the commandments at the bottom of the chapter: Believe in Jesus and love eachother.

Therefore, when he says that those who are born of God cannot sin, He is talking about those two commandments. They cannot fall away from the faith, or fail in loving their brothers. He brings forth the example of Cain and Able. Cain was of the wicked one, who slew Able because Able's acts were good and Cain's were not. John is saying that those who are born of God, therefore, will not hate their brothers, because the Love of God is within them. If people say they love God but hate their brothers, the love of God is not within them.

The love of God being within a believer is what saves them from hating their brother, from being a murderer. John is not saying that someone who is born of God will NEVER commit an act of sin (unless you take verses out of context to suggest that, and I will leave it to others to see if that makes sense), because in the next chapter he affirms that they can, but if they do, they should confess their sins to God and he will be faithful to forgive them and to cleanse them of all unrighteousness.

The Bible teaches that cleansing of unrighteousness is not just as simple as being forgiven but actually being renewed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

[dajomaco]

I definitely agree. I never credit man for salvation. But I think there is an irony in some interpretations of UR that says if people have no shame about their sin, then suddenly they will stop sinning.
Just as more law does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
More Shame does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
To me, that credits man for salvation still. I give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God who gives each a measure of faith, and to each the Spirit.

[dajomaco]

:thumbsup:

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit
I think there is a lack of Spirit filled teachers.
and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel
You say there is a dividing line between UR believers and the early church.
I am not a UR believer or represent UR believes.
I a m just a forum member(brother) posting and responding to interesting
posters (brother) as you are one.

and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.

Could you please tell me what is the dividing line that you see.

[Seth]

:thumbsup:

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit
I think there is a lack of Spirit filled teachers.
and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel
You say there is a dividing line between UR believers and the early church.
I am not a UR believer or represent UR believes.
I a m just a forum member(brother) posting and responding to interesting
posters (brother) as you are one.

and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.

Could you please tell me what is the dividing line that you see.

That line is drawn by the owner of this very forum: http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

[Seth]

I definitely agree. I never credit man for salvation. But I think there is an irony in some interpretations of UR that says if people have no shame about their sin, then suddenly they will stop sinning.
Just as more law does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
More Shame does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
To me, that credits man for salvation still. I give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God who gives each a measure of faith, and to each the Spirit.

I never said that shame itself is the answer to sin. The Gospel message Peter preached was REPENT and be baptized.

If a rapist does so without shame, when will he repent? Nobody repents of something they have no shame about.

2 Thess 3
14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

[dajomaco]

:thumbsup:

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit
I think there is a lack of Spirit filled teachers.
and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel
You say there is a dividing line between UR believers and the early church.
I am not a UR believer or represent UR believes.
I a m just a forum member(brother) posting and responding to interesting
posters (brother) as you are one.

and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.

Could you please tell me what is the dividing line that you see.

That line is drawn by the owner of this very forum: http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

Thank you for the link.
That's a thin dividing line. But not the thinnest.
Please continue with me.

[Seth]

When I say "dividing line" note what I am talking about: a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel

The difference between Carlton Pearson's understanding of it, and Gary Amirault's understanding was enough for Gary to take the time to clarify it.

[dajomaco]

I definitely agree. I never credit man for salvation. But I think there is an irony in some interpretations of UR that says if people have no shame about their sin, then suddenly they will stop sinning.
Just as more law does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
More Shame does not stop or is the answer to Sin.
To me, that credits man for salvation still. I give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God who gives each a measure of faith, and to each the Spirit.

I never said that shame itself is the answer to sin. The Gospel message Peter preached was REPENT and be baptized.

If a rapist does so without shame, when will he repent?
He will repent when some one goes to him with Life not shame.
When someone Shares the Good news as Prompted by the Holy Spirit.
The rapist does not stand a chance against the Holy Spirit and a Spirit filled man.
God is in charge and Paul did not repent because of shame .

Nobody repents of something they have no shame about.

2 Thess 3
14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

[dajomaco]

Dear sisters Seth and I are using (rapist) as sinner in our discussions as the bad sinner We could from now on just say sinner.
This whole sin is very sensitive by nature.

[Seth]

He will repent when some one goes to him with Life not shame.
When someone Shares the Good news as Prompted by the Holy Spirit.
The rapist does not stand a chance against the Holy Spirit and a Spirit filled man.
God is in charge and Paul did not repent because of shame .

I disagree. Shame is nothing more than a convicted conscience. We see that being employed in 2 Thess 3:14 and we see Paul using the same conviction in Romans 2. For anyone to repent, they need a reason to repent and that is why God has used the foolishness of preaching to save.

By definition of the word "shame" a rapist who has no shame, has NO REGRET or conviction, and therefore, nothing to repent about.

Dear sisters Seth and I are using (rapist) as sinner in our discussions as the bad sinner We could from now on just say sinner.
This whole sin is very sensitive by nature.

"Sinners" is a theological word. Rape is what actually happens in the world. So I will stick with it. If the ladies prefer "murderer" or "torturer" that's fine by me. But let's not whitewash what actually happens in the world.

[lastpost]

1 John
Concordant Literal Version (words in parenthesis not in text).

5 And this is the message which we have heard from Him and are informing you, that God is (always) light, and darkness in Him there is (always) none.

6 If we should be saying that we are (in the process of) having fellowship with Him and should be (in the process of) walking in darkness, we are (in the process of) lying and are not (in the process of) doing the truth.

7 Yet (a comparison) if we should be (in the process of) walking in the light as He is (always) in the light, we are (in the process of) having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is (always) cleansing us from every sin.


In my opinion, the one who does not know the scorching compunction of spiritual purification from which it may feel impossible to escape, is to be truly pitied, for he builds up for himself much to be reckoned with.

If I am aware of darkness and acknowledge - it seems hourly and daily - that I am a sinner, then the Spirit of the Beloved Christ enables me to lay aside the pride of the lesser lower self, so that I may not walk in darkness without even knowing it.

I am of the opinion that if the Saviour, Jesus the Christ, had not saved the world in His perfect timing, we would not be talking about the Light today; indeed, I perceive that evil was so growing in power that today humanity should be lower than the beasts of the field - I believe this to be fact in spite of what the material mind of man considers the "civilised" aspects of the evil power that ruled the world at the time.

Therefore, because of all of this, and much more which can only be made plain once the spiritual body sits at the feet of Christ, I personally follow the Saviour - indeed, the personal Saviour - who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

True and Lasting Peace only in Christ

[dajomaco]

Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord. He went to the high priest  2 and requested letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem.  3 As he traveled and was nearing Damascus, a light from heaven suddenly flashed around him.  4 Falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"

5 "Who are You, Lord?" he said.

"I am Jesus, the One you are persecuting,"

My sincere question is
Does God use Shame to bring one to repentant.
Does God through the holy spirit use shame to keep believers in line.
 

[Seth]

Notice the first thing Jesus asks him. Why are you persecuting me? Interesting.


1 Cor 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (such humility)

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

[onesimus]

Seth said, That line is drawn by the owner of this very forum: http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

On 'dividing lines'  and 'dogma'...

In the following reference from Ephesians the original Greek word dogma has been replaced by the word ordinances. In the reference from Colossians dogma has been replaced with the word requirements.

Ephesians 2:15; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself one new man, so making peace.

Colossians 2:13-14; Wiping out the handwriting of requirements (dogma) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.


The third use of the word dogma has been replaced by the word regulations. In this verse, dogma is found as part of the Greek phrase dogmatazio, which literally means to submit oneself to dogma.

Paul asks the Colossians, if you have died in Christ to the basic principles of the world, why are you submitting yourselves to dogma? (Colossians 2:20)

There are now upwards of 40, 000 'dividing lines' within this monolithic religious system we call 'Christianity'.....

Everyone has their own dogmatic creed by which they define themselves..

Dogma is ultimately always 'against us and contrary to us' because it is opposed to the spirit. Dogma always divides because it hinders us from being able to freely love (as we have been loved).

Lord, may we all learn to live in the spirit and drop our doctrinal child-toys and grow up to love!

[Seth]

Seth said, That line is drawn by the owner of this very forum: http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

On 'dividing lines'  and 'dogma'...

In the following reference from Ephesians the original Greek word dogma has been replaced by the word ordinances. In the reference from Colossians dogma has been replaced with the word requirements.

Ephesians 2:15; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself one new man, so making peace.

Colossians 2:13-14; Wiping out the handwriting of requirements (dogma) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.


The third use of the word dogma has been replaced by the word regulations. In this verse, dogma is found as part of the Greek phrase dogmatazio, which literally means to submit oneself to dogma.

Paul asks the Colossians, if you have died in Christ to the basic principles of the world, why are you submitting yourselves to dogma?

There are now upwards of 40, 000 'dividing lines' within this monolithic religious system we call 'Christianity'.....

Everyone has their own dogmatic creed by which they define themselves..

Dogma is ultimately always 'against us and contrary to us' because it is opposed to the spirit. Dogma always divides because it hinders us from being able to freely love (as we have been loved).

Lord, may we all learn to live in the spirit and drop our doctrinal child-toys and grow up to love!

Good grief. Look at what I actually SAID

I said dividing line ON HOW UR IS UNDERSTOOD. I didn't say dividing line between PEOPLE. There is a big difference between how UR is understood, and I believe that the lack of teaching about what the Spirit has to do with salvation is the biggest factor in that.

There is a HUGE dividing line between how ETers understand the gospel and how UR believers understand it, and that has to do with the understanding of "aion" and "aionios" and the translations of hell from hades and gehenna etc. I never said that we needed to be contrary to PEOPLE. Seriously, give me a break.

[Seth]

If someone was wearing red glasses and someone else was wearing no glasses, and they both looked up at a blue sky, and one person said it was blue, and the other person said it was purple or red, the dividing line between how they see the sky would be THE GLASSES.

They could still be perfectly good friends.

If you're going to rebuke me for "doctrinal child-toys" you may want to take the time to understand what I was actually saying.  :doh: