In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)

[Seth]

You're right. I didn't see the "not". That happens sometimes. I will edit my post to reflect so as not to misrepresent what you said.

[dajomaco]

Our prisons are full of the  Children of practical men.

[Seth]

Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all. That's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin. And that is where theology and practicality do not mix, since what is "wrong" is also "missing the mark." That is where I believe UR can go sideways and be a weak witness for truth.

But I do appreciate what you are saying about not LOOKING for sin, as in not constantly judging others to try to find weaknesses. If that is what you mean, I do agree with that. But I do believe it is important to be watchful of ourselves because a little leaven can leaven the whole lump, or as Christ said, cut out your eye if it "offends." And if we say that our eye does NEVER offend, we cannot obey Christ, for we all have sin, and if we say we don't, well, you know...  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

I believe UR can go sideways and be a weak witness for truth.

I agree.

I think picking and condemning is not the same as contending for sound doctrine, as Paul told us to do;  and to speak the truth in love.

[dajomaco]

Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all. That's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin. And that is where theology and practicality do not mix, since what is "wrong" is also "missing the mark." That is where I believe UR can go sideways and be a weak witness for truth.

But I do appreciate what you are saying about not LOOKING for sin, as in not constantly judging others to try to find weaknesses. If that is what you mean, I do agree with that. But I do believe it is important to be watchful of ourselves because a little leaven can leaven the whole lump, or as Christ said, cut out your eye if it "offends." And if we say that our eye does NEVER offend, we cannot obey Christ, for we all have sin, and if we say we don't, well, you know...  :HeartThrob:

Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all.
Sin has been dealt with once and for all.

That's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin.
Sin Is Sin to make it more than that is.Is to further the myth that some sin is so bad it needs some form of torment to be dealt with properly.

And that is where theology and practicality do not mix, since what is "wrong" is also "missing the mark." That is where I believe UR can go sideways and be a weak witness for truth.

The truth about sin is that it has been forgiven.

Some sin has an extra layer of shame put on it.
The rapist knows they are evil and do not deserve forgiveness.
There is so much shame put on this particular sin that the victim is often ashamed.
This cycle of shame gives power to this sin.

It was so easy to deal with the different sin categories when I knew
the real bad sinners were going to hell.

But I do appreciate what you are saying about not LOOKING for sin, as in not constantly judging others to try to find weaknesses. If that is what you mean, I do agree with that. But I do believe it is important to be watchful of ourselves because a little leaven can leaven the whole lump, or as Christ said, cut out your eye if it "offends." And if we say that our eye does NEVER offend, we cannot obey Christ, for we all have sin, and if we say we don't, well, you know...  :HeartThrob:
[/quote]

I believe the leaven is the different levels of sin.
Some sin is just a little more wrong than others and needs slightly more than forgiveness.

[Seth]

Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all.
Sin has been dealt with once and for all.

Yes, this is a common phraseology in UR, but the term "dealt with" is pretty vague to me. That could mean anything. What does "dealt with" mean?

That's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin.
Sin Is Sin to make it more than that is.Is to further the myth that some sin is so bad it needs some form of torment to be dealt with properly.

Yes, sin is sin.  :dontknow:

The truth about sin is that it has been forgiven.

Some sin has an extra layer of shame put on it.
The rapist knows they are evil and do not deserve forgiveness.
There is so much shame put on this particular sin that the victim is often ashamed.
This cycle of shame gives power to this sin.

It was so easy to deal with the different sin categories when I knew
the real bad sinners were going to hell.

Should the rapist feel no shame in raping a woman? When you do terrible things and feel no shame, doesn't that make one a sociopath?

I believe the leaven is the different levels of sin.
Some sin is just a little more wrong than others and needs slightly more than forgiveness.

Why would any sin be be more wrong than another, if sin has been "dealt with" already? If it's been dealt with, then nothing more needs to be done, right?

[dajomaco]

Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all.
Sin has been dealt with once and for all.

Yes, this is a common phraseology in UR, but the term "dealt with" is pretty vague to me. That could mean anything. What does "dealt with" mean?
Jesus knows the answer.

That's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin.
Sin Is Sin to make it more than that is.Is to further the myth that some sin is so bad it needs some form of torment to be dealt with properly.

Yes, sin is sin.  :dontknow:

The truth about sin is that it has been forgiven.

Some sin has an extra layer of shame put on it.
The rapist knows they are evil and do not deserve forgiveness.
There is so much shame put on this particular sin that the victim is often ashamed.
This cycle of shame gives power to this sin.

It was so easy to deal with the different sin categories when I knew
the real bad sinners were going to hell.

Should the rapist feel no shame in raping a woman? When you do terrible things and feel no shame, doesn't that make one a sociopath?

The idea that if a rapist only felt more shame he wouldn't rape.
Is the idea that empowers rapist.
If more shame was the answer to sin don't you think God would have ....

I believe the leaven is the different levels of sin.
Some sin is just a little more wrong than others and needs slightly more than forgiveness.

Why would any sin be be more wrong than another, if sin has been "dealt with" already? If it's been dealt with, then nothing more needs to be done, right?

I assume you are being rhetorical.
I am not .
Please tell me what more needs to be done.

[Seth]

Well, there is a UR contingent that believes that sin does not exist at all.
Sin has been dealt with once and for all.

Yes, this is a common phraseology in UR, but the term "dealt with" is pretty vague to me. That could mean anything. What does "dealt with" mean?
Jesus knows the answer.

That's problematic because then we get into a situation of saying that rape is not a sin. It's wrong, but not a sin.
Sin Is Sin to make it more than that is.Is to further the myth that some sin is so bad it needs some form of torment to be dealt with properly.

Yes, sin is sin.  :dontknow:

The truth about sin is that it has been forgiven.

Some sin has an extra layer of shame put on it.
The rapist knows they are evil and do not deserve forgiveness.
There is so much shame put on this particular sin that the victim is often ashamed.
This cycle of shame gives power to this sin.

It was so easy to deal with the different sin categories when I knew
the real bad sinners were going to hell.

Should the rapist feel no shame in raping a woman? When you do terrible things and feel no shame, doesn't that make one a sociopath?

The idea that if a rapist only felt more shame he wouldn't rape.
Is the idea that empowers rapist.
If more shame was the answer to sin don't you think God would have ....

I believe the leaven is the different levels of sin.
Some sin is just a little more wrong than others and needs slightly more than forgiveness.

Why would any sin be be more wrong than another, if sin has been "dealt with" already? If it's been dealt with, then nothing more needs to be done, right?

I assume you are being rhetorical.
I am not .
Please tell me what more needs to be done.

Shame causes repentance (The Law was a school master). Receiving the Spirit causes salvation. Lack of shame causes pride. God resists the proud.

[eaglesway]

1 john 5:16 If any one may see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and He shall give to him life to those sinning not unto death; there is sin to death, not concerning it do I speak that he may beseech;
17 all unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not unto death.

[dajomaco]

We have redemption in Him through His blood,
the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Sin dealt with blood

[Tom]

Amen

"in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7)

[rosered]

We have redemption in Him through His blood,
the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Sin dealt with blood

  This   is  wonderful    Dajomaco   
Made me think      real hard 
why does blood    deal with sin in the first place

For  which       makes sense  in this   , all the innocent blood  spilled in the  earth  cries out to God 
Jesus mentions this   very thing Matthew 23:35 CEB

Therefore, upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been poured out on the earth, from the blood of that righteous man Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.

   Do you see how this generation would have  all the BLOOD from  way back than to this   time  upon them  to  see the wrath of God  ,
its the same generation of Babylon    on all whom still ask for blood sacrifices  for sin !!


before Jesus        shed His own Blood    and cried out to God     ,  and DID NOT    ask for vengeance , but said forgive them Father  because they don't know what they are doing !!!   
  This is the grace of God      give to you from the perfect     ''gift''    of innocent blood  .
  there is no more sacrifice      for sins , it would still be the same abomination   , thing hated of God   of keep on shedding of innocent  blood   as a sacrifice for sins , before the Lord whom would have never      asked for this in the first place  committing Idolatry 

  Jerusalem's Fall Confirmed
...34"But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 35"They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.



  HE ASKS OBEDIENCE     That is our sacrifice      to Him   Jesus proved its possible all the way to the cross    and beyond

[rosered]

Amen

"in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7)

  Yes indeed Tom when the perfect come   , there is no other thing   that will do !!  Hebrews 10    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10


John the baptist  came  before Him to announce  ''  SEE/  Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world !!''

[Tom]

Amen

[Seth]

It's significant to me that Christ was sacrificed outside Jerusalem when I think about New Jerusalem. I believe that repentance is the signifier that the flesh is dead to the one repenting that he may enter the city and partake of the water of life. "Repent and be baptized" = be crucified outside the city, then enter the city for resurrection life.

This is what I believe Satan's role is in the day of the Lord, the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved.

[dajomaco]

Amen

"in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7)

  Yes indeed Tom when the perfect come   , there is no other thing   that will do !!  Hebrews 10    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10

:iagree:
What else will do?
John the baptist  came  before Him to announce  "  SEE/  Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world !!"

[Seth]

1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Being born of God is how sin is dealt with. IMHO

[rosered]

1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Being born of God is how sin is dealt with. IMHO

  I  hope we  are all in agreement Seth that without the Lord Jesus Christ we can do nothing right?   
  Jesus forgives sin and destroys the works of Satan
  And None  could not have been born again with   Him    the SEED IS CHRIST ..
So its all about Jesus Christ         He was the Lamb that had the power to open the  seals    the  way  truth and life   ,  The Resurrection   , His  example    His Word    etc , etc ,   etc 

[Seth]

I definitely agree. I never credit man for salvation. But I think there is an irony in some interpretations of UR that says if people have no shame about their sin, then suddenly they will stop sinning. To me, that credits man for salvation still. I give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God who gives each a measure of faith, and to each the Spirit.

[rosered]

I definitely agree. I never credit man for salvation. But I think there is an irony in some interpretations of UR that says if people have no shame about their sin, then suddenly they will stop sinning. To me, that credits man for salvation still. I give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God who gives each a measure of faith, and to each the Spirit.

    :thumbsup:  So do I ,   though I do not dwell on sin  ,   as some do   ,  For me I believe the Lord  lets those know how sin sick and lost they are before they come to their senses/ awake out of sleep    , than the healing  from the Lord and    so forth , it is a process     all must undergo    ,    the more we  understand   in the Knowledge of God though Jesus Christ      The more  we know    that UR    is not a lie , I do not think we quit hungering and thirsting after His righteousness ,   Seth  ,it becomes a    desire  burning  in our hearts     , He is the author and   finisher of   faith after all

  2Peter 3 
0But the day of THE LORD JEHOVAH comes as a thief in which the Heavens suddenly pass away,

but the elements being set on fire shall be destroyed and The Earth and the works that are in it shall be discovered*.

11As therefore all these things are to be destroyed, it is right for you to be in your way of life as those who are holy and in the worship of God,


12While you expect and eagerly desire the coming of The Day of God in which the Heavens, being tested by fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements, when set on fire, shall melt. 13But according to his promise, we look for The New Heavens and The New Earth, in which dwells righteousness.*

14Therefore beloved, as you expect these things, take pains that you shall be found without spot and without defect before him in peace.


15And you shall consider that the patience of THE LORD JEHOVAH is salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom that was given to him,


16Just as in all of his letters he spoke about these things, in which are things difficult for the intellect, which those who are without teaching and unstable, pervert, as also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.


17You therefore, beloved, as you have known beforehand, guard your souls, lest you go after the deception of those who are without The Law and you fall from your own stability.


18But grow in grace and in the knowledge of Our Lord and Our Savior, Yeshua The Messiah, and of God The Father, to whom the glory is now and always, even to the days of eternity. Amen.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.

[rosered]

:thumbsup:

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.

I agree  Seth     The Holy Spirit   and its power to remit /forgive  or retain /hold to account    sin    and   know all evil will  be destroyed   and  its the Lord whom will make all things new and   perfect /complete  HOLY   


...22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

God is righteous  in all His ways ...

  Seems  semantics  even in the UR   camps  are   not in full agreement  as of yet  :sigh:

[Seth]

:thumbsup:

I think that a lack of teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and it's role in salvation is why there is such a dividing line in how UR believers understand the Gospel and how it was preached in the early church. That's just my own belief concerning the current state of UR as it is spread in the world today.

I agree  Seth     The Holy Spirit   and its power to remit /forgive  or retain /hold to account    sin    and   know all evil will  be destroyed   and  its the Lord whom will make all things new and   perfect /complete  HOLY   


...22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

God is righteous  in all His ways ...

  Seems  semantics  even in the UR   camps  are   not in full agreement  as of yet  :sigh:

Yes, I agree, both forgiveness and also: "For if you, by the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live." And, "They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

I see forgiveness of past sins as stage 1, and actual salvation from sin as stage 2 occurring by the washing and regeneration of the Spirit.

[eaglesway]

Amen! Followed by stage 3,  the redemption of our bodies and the revelation of the sons of God at the end of the age. :o)

[Seth]

 :2thumbs: