In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)

[onesimus]

Rosered, I did not understand everything you said....but I saw the spirit of your words and they shined :)

In this discussion on sacrifice, if God did not require it, but instead gave it to us as a way for us to be ok with our sin, then we might come to the place where we see that God also did not require Jesus to die. Although, he was pleased to offer his his son as a guilt offering, he did it for us, to give us a way to be free from the neurotic cycle of judgement, guilt and shame that had been with us since the fall..

Man's justice required that someone pay for all the wrong. Man's vengeance demanded it be God.

He obliged us on both counts..

[jabcat]

In this discussion on sacrifice, if God did not require it, but instead gave it to us as a way for us to be ok with our sin, then we might come to the place where we see that God also did not require Jesus to die. Although, he was pleased to offer his his son as a guilt offering, he did it for us, to give us a way to be free from the neurotic cycle of judgement, guilt and shame that had been with us since the fall..

Man's justice required that someone pay for all the wrong. Man's vengeance demanded it be God.

He obliged us on both counts..

I disagree with your assessment of the sacrifice.  I believe the sacrifice and Jesus' blood atonement did much more than relieve us of our self-induced neurosis.  I'm not sure where you come up with all your conclusions, but I believe the scriptures teach something much different than that.

[joeteekay]

Thanks Jabcat. Good.  :thumbsup:

[Seth]

While God commanded it for man's sake - he never required it. 

What do you see as the difference between God commanding something and requiring it? From my perspective, God's commandments are required to do, and not doing them is equal to disobedience.

[rosered]

 
I do not want to  cause problems    here    but   no offense   to anyone

  Probably got it from the psalms of David

  sacrifice   you did not desire

Psalms 46

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require

Psalms 51 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

Hebrews  8 10First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"--though they were offered in accordance with the law.

  Hosea   6 ;6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

I believe Jesus Christ was offered   by God   as a gift to mankind   for all times  of   great mercy and grace
1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (NIV)
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NASB)
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)
Titus 3:4-7
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (NKJV)
John 10:27-28
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me. (NLT)
1 Timothy 1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[jabcat]

Hi rosie.  IMO, there's nothing in your post to disagree with  :declare:.  But maybe some questions and thoughts, building on/going along with what you're saying.

Jesus was the Lamb, slain from the foundation.  Man hadn't "demanded" it.  Since Jesus (and prior, other sacrifices) was slain according to the  Law, who wrote the Law?  Not man, but God. 

So yes, I think it's a great question as to what God meant exactly by the "not desiring sacrifice", etc., since

I believe there are scriptures showing that God DID at times request and even demand sacrifice, inclucing prior to His sacrifice of Jesus.  I just don't believe that was just to "appease" us.  Instead, I agree with this statement you made, "Jesus Christ was offered   by God   as a gift to mankind   for all times  of   great mercy and grace", so I believe there is POWER in the cross, a working of the miraculous in what Jesus did and does for us - not just appeasing our conscience or giving us better "mental health" because we "realize" something and "got what we wanted".  *I'm NOT saying YOU are saying that or believe that, but I think we can agree that some others, here and elsewhere (mostly elsewhere than TM) do believe those things. 

I guess my view is that there is some mystery involved, and I feel a need to be careful so as to not minimize Christ's work at the cross - even though I can nowhere near fully fathom it.

[eaglesway]

While God commanded it for man's sake - he never required it. 

What do you see as the difference between God commanding something and requiring it? From my perspective, God's commandments are required to do, and not doing them is equal to disobedience.

In my opinion this is all about spirit.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Rom 12:2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The commandment is only valid in the spirit. In the flesh it is of no value, an unacceptable sacrifice.

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

"A broken and a contrite heart O God, you will never reject".

IMO all that is written may be summed up in these three great commandments of Christ....

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your strength

"You shall love your neighbor as your self"

"A new commandment I give unto yopu, that you love one another."

.... And these words

"A broken and a contrite heart you will never reject."

The revelation of the cross is meant to bring brokeness through the testimony of the love of God in Christ.

The commandments were given as tutors- looking forward to Him- not as taskmasters or rulers.

Now that He is here- they have become shadows, transcended by the perfect law of liberty, discipleship to Christ in the love of God.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Against such there is no law, and imo, no commandment beyond discipleship to Jesus.

Ifr anyone will be my disciple let them pick up their cross and come, follow me.

[Seth]

 :iagree: with all the above.

What I am wondering from onesimus is whether or not the Jews were commanded to do the sacrifices or not. The Bible says that God commanded them to be done. So, then what's the issue? I guess I am a bit confused by the idea of command vs require. To me, a commandment is a requirement.

[onesimus]

While God commanded it for man's sake - he never required it. 

What do you see as the difference between God commanding something and requiring it? From my perspective, God's commandments are required to do, and not doing them is equal to disobedience.

Thank you for your question...see Hebrews 10:8

"Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"--though they were offered in accordance with the law."

God commanded something that he did not desire, nor was he pleased with. He did not command it because He, himself required it - but because man needed it..

I've also listed the other verses I included when I made the statement u mentioned...

Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice...

Psalm 51:16 You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one. You do not want a burnt offering...

Psalm 40:6 You take no delight in sacrifices or offerings. Now that you have made me listen, I finally understand--you don't require burnt offerings or sin offerings. (NLV)

Mathew 9:13 Go learn what this means, 'I require mercy and not a sacrifice',

Mathew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Jesus quotes the above OT quote twice in Mathew to the pharisees. Men who were the experts in the commandments...As i mentioned earlier, the father wanted man to learn to have mercy on himself and also on others rather than sacrifice

[eaglesway]

Yea, I see what you are saying, and what you are asking Onesimus.... The commandments were "for life", "that you may live and not die"- but they were definitely commanded, yet "in the Spirit"- not in the flesh(as dead works/religion/pursuit of ones own righteousness). The consequences for disobeying them were measured in degree- that measurement being(imo) metered according to the degree in which the violation injured the life of another, or defied the reign of God.

Didn t mean to interdict your question to Onesimus :o)

[Seth]

Thank you for your explanation and clarification. I think I understand what you are getting at. When I read Psalm 51 in its entirety, I see that David is peering into the new covenant, at the promise, and how that, as Eaglesway explained how that the sacrifice was to take on a spiritual meaning, doing away with the burnt offerings and we become the sacrifice (verse 17). What God was getting was burnt sacrifice without the broken spirit, and that is what makes the Law weak, and why Christ was able to do what the Law was not able to do (Romans 8), in sending the Spirit.

I do see that God required the sacrifices by way of commandment as a sign of Christ to come, and that he was slain from the foundation. The burnt sacrifices provide a reminder of sin, and the Spirit provides the death of sin.

[onesimus]

In this discussion on sacrifice, if God did not require it, but instead gave it to us as a way for us to be ok with our sin, then we might come to the place where we see that God also did not require Jesus to die. Although, he was pleased to offer his his son as a guilt offering, he did it for us, to give us a way to be free from the neurotic cycle of judgement, guilt and shame that had been with us since the fall..

Man's justice required that someone pay for all the wrong. Man's vengeance demanded it be God.

He obliged us on both counts..

I disagree with your assessment of the sacrifice.  I believe the sacrifice and Jesus' blood atonement did much more than relieve us of our self-induced neurosis.  I'm not sure where you come up with all your conclusions, but I believe the scriptures teach something much different than that.

Thanks, Jabcat. Yes and yes on Jesus's death being much more than this type of relief :)

MY conclusions, if that is what they are, come from walking a long and windy road both in my life and through the scriptures..

I sense annoyance from you...and I wonder if that is real or whether it is just that I'm not familiar with you...It is hard to tell on the internet. In real life much of the way we communicate is in tone, body language and facial expression...but none of this is visible in an online forum..

[jabcat]

Thanks for the reply onesimus and all.  (I'll PM you later onesimus).

In the context of this whole discussion, anyone have any thoughts on the following?  Thanks.

"The shed blood on the cross and of the O.T. animals was necessary because God told us in Lev. 17:11, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement."  Atonement is a cleansing, a removal of sin.  So, animal sacrifices were a temporary atonement that foreshadowed the real and permanent atonement of Jesus, who is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14).

Hebrews 9:11-14, "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" - Christian Apologetics

[eaglesway]

There are a lot of fuzzy things about this. For instance; the writ of divorce was given by Moses, not by God's design, but because of "the hardness of their hearts". God gave the people a king, not because He wanted to- but because they demanded one, sort of like they asked for meat in the wilderness.....yet He had incorporated in the law, commandments for kings, before kings were ever anointed. Imo, there is always a level of discernment and context required, because some commandments were absolutely from the heart of God for training in righteousness and preservation of life, community and love- a "tutor unto Christ".

Once in Christ, He is the fulfillment of the law unto righteousness by faith. Anyone following Him fulfills the law. how do we follow Him? In spirit and truth. To me this means growing in understanding the scriptures and knowing Him in the Spirit.

[onesimus]

Thanks for the reply onesimus and all.  (I'll PM you later onesimus).

It's ok, Jabcat :) I'm in a different time zone and signing off soon - for a few hours - and u might not get me on PM

I'm just glad I've worked out how to quote and cut and paste to answer people..

[onesimus]

There are a lot of fuzzy things about this. For instance; the writ of divorce was given by Moses, not by God's design, but because of "the hardness of their hearts". God gave the people a king, not because He wanted to- but because they demanded one, sort of like they asked for meat in the wilderness.....

Yes..for me, in my understanding, God has often given us the things we wanted (even when they were not what was best for us). It is a little like using food to entice a wounded wild animal into safety, gradually, ever so slowly, wooing it to trust you....like the verse in Hosea that says "I led Israel along with my ropes of kindness and love. I lifted the yoke from his neck, and I myself stooped to feed him." God stooping to feed us..

[jabcat]

I've been running this over in my mind.  Anyone please clarify, suggest changes in view, or comment on this summary;


Scenario #1

Jesus was the the sacrificial Lamb slain from the beginning

God didn't prefer it that way, man did

God went along with man even though He didn't want it that way

What was accomplished:  Jesus showed true love on the cross by setting a good example, and now man is able to see things clearer and feel better about themselves (and about God)




Scenario #2

Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb slain from the beginning

God required sacrifice for the remission of sin (no forgiveness without shedding of blood)

God gave Jesus as the final Sacrifice to end all sacrifices, to be the atonement for sin, and to provide a way to the Father (redemption, cleansing of sin, providing for new spiritual birth)

[Seth]

I go with #2 with the added comment that God can forgive at any time but the requirements for blood are for the Law specifically.

[sheila]

God has always desired obedience over sacrifice.....it was man's disobedience[sin] that required the sacrifice......

    sacrifice and offerings I did not desire..........in mercy was my delight.  It is written..the son of man must go as it is written

  but woe to that man[of sin/son of perdition] who betrays him.....

   

    LOVE always does what is required of it.....looking not after it's own...I believe He did it for our sake..and not His own...He

sacrificed His only begotten son for our sakes..to show us the depth of Hislove for us.

   the Law ..was added..for a reason.....

.

[Tom]

God is love, and I think love is about sacrifice. You sacrifice for your kids etc. God offered the ultimate sacrifice. I think everything has gone according to God's plan from the beginning and continues to do so. I think the sacrificial law given to the Jews was just a foreshadow of what would happen with Christ, but the law was necessary to show the Jews that their sacrifices weren't enough to save themselves from sin. The sad thing is most believers seem to think Christ's sacrifice has limited potential when, according to scripture, it is for all on earth and in the heavens.

[Seth]

I think the word "required" is making this confusing. Abstract concepts don't actually make requirements. They CAUSE things to be required, in this case by God. God required sacrifices because of disobedience.

[jabcat]

    I believe He did it for our sake..and not His own...He

sacrificed His only begotten son for our sakes..to show us the depth of Hislove for us.

.

I believe God did it for more than a reason to just show us something.  Maybe you do too, but these may be difficult things to explain and comprehend.  I know I'm personally still thinkin'...

I believe there's more power involved and more of the miraculous accomplished at the cross than just an example provided.

[onesimus]

Jabcat said "there's more power involved and more of the miraculous accomplished at the cross than just an example provided."

Yes to this. So much accomplished..."...if all that Jesus accomplished was written down, the whole world could not contain the books.."

His cross is the fulcrum our struggles are designed to continually swing us towards. Every path in the bible begins with the cross and every path leads there. All the verses of promise and blessing stem from it, while those of judgement and wrath push us toward it..

To lead us to his cross is the bible's primary job..All of the other uses of scripture, although valid,  are subsidiary, subservient and orientated to this task..

At the cross is our freedom, our peace and our rest.

The cross is the real New Testament; "This cup is the new testament...."(Luke 22:20).

Sometimes, to our detriment, we label and treat the latter 27 books of the bible as if they were the New Testament, when they are not.

2 Cor 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new testament--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The New Testament is not something written. It is an act of pure love, and is based on the promises of God and his ability (not ours) to fulfill them.

The writers of those 27 books are divinely inspired to describe the actual New Testament for us, and they point to it for us, but their words are not an addendum of laws and regulations to it. There is no addendum to the cross: "It is finished".

A few people arrive at the cross quickly and unexpectedly and receive its rewards instantly, like the thief who died alongside Jesus...but for the majority of us, it is a gradual, troublesome march to find the grace that is there - grace that changes everything.

May we keep on marching!

[jabcat]

So much accomplished..."...if all that Jesus accomplished was written down, the whole world could not contain the books.."

His cross is the fulcrum our struggles are designed to continually swing us towards. Every path in the bible begins with the cross and every path leads there. All the verses of promise and blessing stem from it, while those of judgement and wrath push us toward it..

At the cross is our freedom, our peace and our rest.

:thumbsup:

May we keep marching!

:thumbsup:

Sometimes, to our detriment, we label and treat the latter 27 books of the bible as if they were the New Testament, when they are not.

2 Cor 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new testament--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The New Testament is not something written. It is an act of pure love, and is based on the promises of God and his ability (not ours) to fulfill them.

The writers of those 27 books are divinely inspired to describe the actual New Testament for us, and they point to it for us, but their words are not an addendum of laws and regulations to it. There is no addendum to the cross: "It is finished".

I appreciate your respect for the cross.  I believe there are things miraculous about it.   I do believe "it is finished" has a (maybe not THE, but at least A) meaning of "paid in full", as in a business transaction of that day.  I.e., Law fulfilled, price paid. 

Although I agree in principle with much of it, I view the conclusions you come up with about the scriptures/letter/Spirit from a bit of a different angle than you describe above.  I believe this reference primarily means the letter of the Law, not the scriptures in general (written Word).  So I see this saying, Jesus is Spirit and we are to worship in spirit and truth - He has fulfilled the Law, is our Savior and Redeemer, so we no longer operate according to, are under, or teach, the Law.  So our relationship with Him now is based on the new covenant, grace and the work of the cross, not works of the Law (Spirit not letter [Law]).

[jabcat]

I go with #2 with the added comment that God can forgive at any time but the requirements for blood are for the Law specifically.

Agree on #2.

As for the requirement of blood, I could see how that might be the case - with Jesus fulfilling it.