Deu 4:24 for Jehovah thy God is a fire consuming--a zealous God.

[rosered]

Seth ,

To me, sending strong delusion is the same as burning down their house. I think that is what Deuteronomy is talking about.

The Law was never death ITSELF. It is a ministration OF death. It CAUSES death, because without the Spirit man can only follow the sin within him. So, sin by the commandment deceives him and slays him, so that he brings forth "fruit unto death." (Romans 7)

For the wages of SIN is death. Paul said that the Law is meant unto life, but I found it to be unto death. Why?

strong delusion to me is   Jesus warnings   here   the false  showing lying signs and wonders

For false Messiahs will arise and Prophets of lies, and they will give great signs so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

[Seth]

Seth ,

To me, sending strong delusion is the same as burning down their house. I think that is what Deuteronomy is talking about.

The Law was never death ITSELF. It is a ministration OF death. It CAUSES death, because without the Spirit man can only follow the sin within him. So, sin by the commandment deceives him and slays him, so that he brings forth "fruit unto death." (Romans 7)

For the wages of SIN is death. Paul said that the Law is meant unto life, but I found it to be unto death. Why?

strong delusion to me is   Jesus warnings   here   the false  showing lying signs and wonders

For false Messiahs will arise and Prophets of lies, and they will give great signs so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Did God ever send a lying spirit to deceive the prophets?

[Seth]

I  seriously believe all of us have been burned already    Seth   , its  those whom    endure the fire  and are tried     and are  save by the fire that become LIKE HIM   this   suffering   is the purging and cleansing fire that   purifies     and saves us   
    to avoid them is a good thing , but Jesus WORD says  many take the broad path that leads to destruction  , very few     are given the narrow path ....   

I certainly agree. But I don't say "us" until the race is run. According to John, there were some among them which were not of them.

Describe     the new creature in Christ ?    or the serpahims    ?    or God  ?  or Jesus ?      How are we going to be like Him , How did the one like the son of man with the  3 children in the  fire appear in Daniel ?

Since I believe the saints shall judge the world, it makes sense that they would be associated with fire. But what do God's angels do to the TARES?

What did our consuming fire do to Israel when they followed after idols. God brings a consuming fire to them, and burns down the house. The houses with jems and jewels cannot be burned and they suffer no loss.


But that is not the end of the story. Thought God may afflict, he also heals. So, the Spirit and the Bride say come drink the water of life freely. I believe it is the role of the elect to bring about freedom from the fire (though the source of judgement is from God), by inviting them into the city of God.

[rosered]

Isaih 43;2

1But now, O Jacob, listen to the LORD who created you.
O Israel, the one who formed you says,
"Do not be afraid, for I have ransomed you.
I have called you by name; you are mine.
2When you go through deep waters,
I will be with you.
When you go through rivers of difficulty,
you will not drown.
When you walk through the fire of oppression,
you will not be burned up;
the flames will not consume you.
3For I am the LORD, your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.
I gave Egypt as a ransom for your freedom;
I gave Ethiopiaa and Seba in your place.
4Others were given in exchange for you.
I traded their lives for yours
because you are precious to me.
You are honored, and I love you.
5"Do not be afraid, for I am with you.
I will gather you and your children from east and west.
6I will say to the north and south,
'Bring my sons and daughters back to Israel
from the distant corners of the earth.
7Bring all who claim me as their God,
for I have made them for my glory.
It was I who created them.'"
8Bring out the people who have eyes but are blind,
who have ears but are deaf.
9Gather the nations together!
Assemble the peoples of the world!
Which of their idols has ever foretold such things?
Which can predict what will happen tomorrow?
Where are the witnesses of such predictions?
Who can verify that they spoke the truth?
10"But you are my witnesses, O Israel!" says the LORD.
"You are my servant.
You have been chosen to know me, believe in me,
and understand that I alone am God.
There is no other God—
there never has been, and there never will be.
11I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no other Savior.
12First I predicted your rescue,
then I saved you and proclaimed it to the world.
No foreign god has ever done this.
You are witnesses that I am the only God,"
says the LORD.
13"From eternity to eternity I am God.
No one can snatch anyone out of my hand.
No one can undo what I have done."
The LORD's Promise of Victory

14This is what the LORD says—your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
"For your sakes I will send an army against Babylon,
forcing the Babyloniansb to flee in those ships they are so proud of.
15I am the LORD, your Holy One,
Israel's Creator and King.
16I am the LORD, who opened a way through the waters,
making a dry path through the sea.
17I called forth the mighty army of Egypt
with all its chariots and horses.
I drew them beneath the waves, and they drowned,
their lives snuffed out like a smoldering candlewick.
18"But forget all that—
it is nothing compared to what I am going to do.
19For I am about to do something new.
See, I have already begun! Do you not see it?
I will make a pathway through the wilderness.
I will create rivers in the dry wasteland.
20The wild animals in the fields will thank me,
the jackals and owls, too,
for giving them water in the desert.
Yes, I will make rivers in the dry wasteland
so my chosen people can be refreshed.
21I have made Israel for myself,
and they will someday honor me before the whole world.


Its all good   :thumbsup:

[rosered]

Seth ,

To me, sending strong delusion is the same as burning down their house. I think that is what Deuteronomy is talking about.

The Law was never death ITSELF. It is a ministration OF death. It CAUSES death, because without the Spirit man can only follow the sin within him. So, sin by the commandment deceives him and slays him, so that he brings forth "fruit unto death." (Romans 7)

For the wages of SIN is death. Paul said that the Law is meant unto life, but I found it to be unto death. Why?

strong delusion to me is   Jesus warnings   here   the false  showing lying signs and wonders

For false Messiahs will arise and Prophets of lies, and they will give great signs so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Did God ever send a lying spirit to deceive the prophets?

  We all know he did Seth ,  even Jeremiah was called the weeping prophet

[Seth]

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

How is that any different than this?

Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

What stronger delusion than to be given over to a carnal mind?

[Seth]

Notice the word "inflamed" in that Romans 1 passage. It comes form the word "ekkaió" meaning to burn.

When Paul spoke about the Law being a ministration of death, he spoke about stone tablets and parchment, the LETTER.

Why suddenly, rather than the judge being the living God, is it suddenly that the letter of the Law is the judge? Because it accuses? If it accuses, I believe it does so accurately, giving us a good report about ourselves. Jesus never said that Moses accused falsely.

But, GOD himself is the judge, and I don't think he needs Moses' help to know who to judge. Who sent Israel into the hands of Babylon, the Law of Moses or God himself? Moses provided a way for the SINNER to understand that he is sold into carnality so that he could begin to find life through the Spirit. WHO SOLD MAN INTO CARNALITY in the first place? Who has blinded the eyes of Israel? The Lake of Fire is not the law. It is death, which is according to the consuming fire who judges. The Law has always been HOLY and holiness is not death unto itself, and its proscribed ways are always unto LIFE. But only the Spirit can impart that life so that man's ways can be put into agreement with love, upon which the Law is hung.

From what I see all throughout scripture is that the wages of sin is death, and always has been.

[Seth]

Here is my way of understanding that God is a consuming fire, and that wickedness is as a fire, and yet both can coincide as a single judgment without contradicting eachother:

Deuteronomy 4
19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are. 21 The Lord was angry with me because of you, and he solemnly swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the Lord your God is giving you as your inheritance. 22 I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan; but you are about to cross over and take possession of that good land. 23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the Lord your God has forbidden. 24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

25 After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time—if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God and arousing his anger, 26 I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess. You will not live there long but will certainly be destroyed. 27 The Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the Lord will drive you. 28 There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.

In that passage, both God and slavemaster Egypt are described as furnace or fire, and when I read the passage, what I see is that God is a fire in the sense that he sends judgment to SEND Israel into slavery, and Egypt is the fire as the AGENT of that takeover. In the case going forward, it would be Babylon. So when I see that "wickedness is as a fire," and that "by the Lord's hand the land is darkened" that does not contradict the notion that God is a consuming fire. They actually coincide with eachother as a form of God's judgment. I see it as another way of saying "I send a destroyer to destroy."

When I see how closely the language of Isaiah 9 matches with John's description of the Lake of Fire, being the "wine of God's wrath" and being death itself, I don't see contradiction between Isaiah 9 and Deuteronomy 4 as BOTH applying to the LOF. Being carnally minded is death. That is exactly what Moses promised that God would send Israel into, a kind of spiritual death. That being the wrath of God, and the tree of life is for the healing of the nations, I see God as both the administer of death, and healing life in the coming Day of the Lord which will come in the future.

[micah7:9]

I, me, personally, that's me alone, do not accept your teaching. :dsunny:

[Seth]

I haven't presented it as a "teaching" here, but my ideas as to how I believe the scriptures correlate. But I understand your point. We can agree to disagree

[micah7:9]

I haven't presented it as a "teaching" here, but my ideas as to how I believe the scriptures correlate. But I understand your point. We can agree to disagree

I, that's me personally, by myself alone, have read and seen it as teaching, and what upset me the most, that it paralleled, in my opinion, with the teaching of what is called ET. I find your "fire" to oppose the consuming fire that  brings righteousness through caring, cleansing, and love. The consuming fire(the LORD) brings forth judgement that purifies, refines and cleanses and proves.

[Seth]

I think I have abided by this forum's rules about how to present ideas and I have respected those who have disagreed. Personally, I see no reason for God to have changed his methods in the Old Testament upon His people to the New Testament upon his people. This is why God's consuming fire is presented both as a warning from Moses and also a warning from the author of Hebrews concerning the spiritual Holy Land and the natural results of failing to enter his rest. The warning still stands. Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience. Those were your words not mine.

[Seth]

and by the way I have never suggested that God works outside of love or that punishment ever lasts forever.

[micah7:9]

I think I have abided by this forum's rules about how to present ideas and I have respected those who have disagreed. Personally, I see no reason for God to have changed his methods in the Old Testament upon His people to the New Testament upon his people. This is why God's consuming fire is presented both as a warning from Moses and also a warning from the author of Hebrews concerning the spiritual Holy Land and the natural results of failing to enter his rest. The warning still stands. Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience. Those were your words not mine.

"Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience."

I most certainly did, that is exactly why the overcomer-elect- chosen would have no fear when he is represented and judged..... for there is no fear within that judgment of fire, the second death.

[Seth]

If it's a "horrible experience" then nothing I have said is contradictory to that. So, your comparison to my belief with ETers is pretty hollow to me. They believe it will be "horrible" too only in a different way.

[micah7:9]

I haven't presented it as a "teaching" here, but my ideas as to how I believe the scriptures correlate. But I understand your point. We can agree to disagree

You have a website for your teaching, what you espouse, so what you say are your "ideas" so there is no reason(imo) why you would not teach what your website teaches. I have found much of your site a healthy teaching.

[Seth]

One thing alot of UR believers like to do is divorce the concept of God being a consuming fire from his being "a jealous God" and then disregard the context in which Moses means that as a warning to his own people.

[micah7:9]

If it's a "horrible experience" then nothing I have said is contradictory to that. So, your comparison to my belief with ETers is pretty hollow to me. They believe it will be "horrible" too only in a different way.

Perhaps :Chinscratch:

[micah7:9]

One thing alot of UR believers like to do is divorce the concept of God being a consuming fire from his being "a jealous God" and then disregard the context in which Moses means that as a warning to his own people.

Not me, myself....He is a consuming fire.

[Seth]

...even a jealous God.

[micah7:9]

He doesn't change. 

[Seth]

I agree, he sure doesn't. Still a jealous God. Careful of those idols...

[Seth]

I haven't presented it as a "teaching" here, but my ideas as to how I believe the scriptures correlate. But I understand your point. We can agree to disagree

You have a website for your teaching, what you espouse, so what you say are your "ideas" so there is no reason(imo) why you would not teach what your website teaches. I have found much of your site a healthy teaching.

Fair enough about my website, but here I do make an effort to abide by the rules of how to communicate in a non teacherly way, and if I believe am wrong about something, I do accept it. I am a learner at heart, which is why I joined the forum years ago in the first place. I constantly learn from conversing here.

[eaglesway]

If it's a "horrible experience" then nothing I have said is contradictory to that. So, your comparison to my belief with ETers is pretty hollow to me. They believe it will be "horrible" too only in a different way.

I could be off  here(this is my belief from my interpretation of the scriptures), but I think I have suggested that the wrath of God is real and aionian kolassis to be very difficult, very intense, to be seriously avoided. However I personally feel "horrible" may be a word that is off a bit, because i don't think it is about horrors. I think it is about being forced to face oneself. I 'theorize" that dying in ones rebellion sets that rebellion in the soul in a way that is like an alloy once the metal has cooled. The process of heating the metal up so that the alloys rise to the surface and separate from what is being purified or recovered - is an EXTREMELY difficult experience(in my view). This is how i think the fire of God, such as the fire in the eyes of Christ(the eye is the lamp of the soul) works in all purification, albeit, an experience that may be less difficult to bear in ones life in the body, than after the resurrection. Whether in the crucible of life, or in the trials of a believer, or in the next world, be it now or then in the  LOF or Gehenna(whatever they represents to the various viewpoints represented here)- I believe the nature/principle  of the working of the Spirit is the same.

"For all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"

"Every hidden thing will be brought to light"

"I am he that tries the reins and the hearts".
:2c:

[Seth]

I agree. It's about the connotation of words. When I punish my daughter with a time out she is convinced I don't love her. It doesn't feel like love to her, eve though it very much is. She might think its horrible but I know it's really not in the long run. It's all in how we filter it through our understanding. I believe the judgment will be about learning that sin isn't a friend, and that's a hard lesson. It was for me. I was under no physical pain when I learned my lessons about it. Just very sorrowful. But that is what made me call out. One must know they need to be saved before they call out to be saved. I believe my experience was horrible, but not in a horror movie kind of way.  In a way where I understood finally the futility of my own way. And that was hard, but it was good for me to understand.