How many "Fires" are there?
According to Isaiah 9, wickedness is as a fire. So, at least 2.
23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee.
24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
Any connection?
Deu 6:4 `Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;
How many God's are there?
There is one God but multiple uses of fire as a metaphor in the Bible, several of which represent that which is opposite of God and nevertheless useful as judgement.
If you are saying that fire is only used as a metaphor for God and nothing else, then I must disagree.
Jehovah thy God is a consuming fire......how many have the attribute of being consuming?
God is able to make man devour himself and his enemy. Look at the Deuteronomy verses. It's all explained in the text what the consuming fire will do when we serve other gods.
:sigh:
You understand that fire is just a symbol? Symbols in scripture can be used to represent both positive and negative things. Just because God used fire to describe himself doesn't mean he limited himself to ONE usage of the symbol throughout alllll scripture.
Absolutely! And back to the first question how many "FIRES" are there? Speaking of the Lord Jehovah. And yet we are speaking here of "fire" not allll of His other symbol uses.
Like is said, there is ONE God. But fire describes him as a symbol. Fire also describes other things too. The question is not how many fires are there. There IS no literal fire. There is is one God, multiple uses of fire.
The manner in which God describes himself as fire is revealed in the context of a warning. Don't stray to other Gods or he will turn your over to those Gods. Fire is the perfect description when we consider that fire can destroy and is dangerous to mess with.
I have come to understand there are 5 fires, but all are ONE fire that produces good.
(1)Gehenna fire (2) furnace of fire, the (3)unquenchable fire, the(4) everlasting [Gk; eonian/age-abiding] fire, and the(5)lake of fire.
There is no actual fire at all. That's the nature of metaphor. To me the question is "how many uses for 'fire' are there in the Bible?" My answer to that is TONS. There are TONS more uses than 5. If you add God that makes 6. Add wickedness is as a fire, that is 7.
I did a search of "fire" in the KJV and it came up with 515 uses. That's not counting "furnace" or "flames" etc etc.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2014, 05:29:05 AM
I have come to understand there are 5 fires, but all are ONE fire that produces good.
(1)Gehenna fire (2) furnace of fire, the (3)unquenchable fire, the(4) everlasting [Gk; eonian/age-abiding] fire, and the(5)lake of fire.
hi! isn't (4) and (5) the same? I find myself thinking in terms of uses in the New Testament, and how they ahve been translated to mean 'hell'.. then I find myself explaining them away (away from being 'hell')
gehenna the city dump which was kept burning always as even the bodies of criminals were burned there, hence better to cast your hand in there than to harm an innocent..
tartarus - also translated 'hell' but which is "darkness".. the angels who left their first place and are now in chains of darkness awaiting judgment.. in chains of darkness, not able to reverse their course, what with now being imperfect and imperfect cannot make itself perfect, even if they wanted to.. so they are chained to darkness awaiting the judgment/outcome
the idea that Jesus visited 'hell' while in the grave-which is the "lower part of the earth" (and the place of the dead is still the grave).. imo
I believe the verse says Jesus went via the Spirit and preached to those who were outside the ark while the ark was being prepared/built.. via the Spirit He preached / reached out to those who were going to perish in the flood..
The LOF we are told what it is.. the 2nd death, the second outside from God, from Life, from blessing..
Our God is a consuming fire.. He purifies all He touches.. He told Moses "tell the people to stay back from the mountain lest I break forth and consume them.. Critics have said this means 'lest I become so incensed with anger and hatred I break forth and slaughter them.. no, Moses face was aglow with the fire.. tell the ppl to stay back, lest they come to harm for my essence is as a consuming fire..
Then there is the fires which are fiery judgment / consequences and results - the wages/result of sin is death
War is fiery..
Man's splitting of the atom - (imo is) "He comes with angels
and fire" again natural results and consequences.. I believe when He returns it is to a fiery conflagration of man's
own doing.. A lesson to be learned, thus this allowing things to run their course.. for what is said to be the best teacher? perhaps I stray.. but man's splitting of the atom, to me, is a major one of the
fires..
and all that oil in the Middle East at such a time, when "armies surround Jerusalem" (just before His return).. seems to me to be bound to become a lake of fire if the split atom comes into play..
also at the surrounding of the holy city after the 1000 year reign and millennium.. oil ignited as LOF -- all natural results, except likely, the final one after the millennium.. (Rev 20:7-9)- https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation%2020:7-9&version=TLB;NASB;NKJV;KJV;YLT
have I forgotten one from the new testament used to refer to a "fiery" 'hell'?
P.S. - another fire - drought, Rev 12:16 & Luke 23;28,31
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 05:24:06 AM
Like is said, there is ONE God. But fire describes him as a symbol. Fire also describes other things too. The question is not how many fires are there. There IS no literal fire. There is is one God, multiple uses of fire.
The manner in which God describes himself as fire is revealed in the context of a warning. Don't stray to other Gods or he will turn your over to those Gods. Fire is the perfect description when we consider that fire can destroy and is dangerous to mess with.
There IS no literal fire. On this we must agree. :dsunny:
All these five "fires" are the same one fire, and this fire is the "Consuming Fire" of God that JUDGES BOTH US AND THE WORLD. And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:8). The lake of fireis JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGEMENTSUPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT! One Fire, two Judgments.
That God is the source of judgement, I agree. That the elect must drink from the wine of God's wrath I would strongly disagree. The elect are not appointed to wrath but are saved from wrath by grace.
The Bible's terminology of judgement upon the house of God is that God sends the wrath of man to grow them. The fire is the wickedness of men, persecution, that tries and perfects the saints faith. But according to Peter, the fire of the day of the Lord is for the destruction of ungodly men.
The Fiery Law is and was always in effect and continues this is why God judges no one , they are set up already to be judged by the Laws
Two laws one of Moses first death and the other Christ , the second death , it is Jesus and the Father who raises the dead to life again
Gods judgments are in the earth THE LAW
This is why to me God judges no one and Jesus says you judge according to the flesh and I judge no man , but if I judge my judgment is just
James 4 '11 says you judge the LAW and sit in the seat to be judged just as you judge by the Fiery law ,,,Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
john 5
19So Jesus explained, "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing. In fact, the Father will show him how to do even greater works than healing this man. Then you will truly be astonished. 21For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead, so the Son gives life to anyone he wants. 22In addition, the Father judges no one. Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge, 23so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.
For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned." 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I tremble with fear." 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly1 of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." 27 This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29for our God is a consuming fire.
for me the new born again creatures in Christ are of the same substance and nature of Fire offspring of those whith the eyes that blaze of fire and the MAIN SOURCE GOD A CONSUMING FIRE OF HOLINESS AND PURITY THAT KEEPS ALL FILTH AWAY BY HIS FIRE
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 04:57:33 PM
That God is the source of judgement, I agree. That the elect must drink from the wine of God's wrath I would strongly disagree. The elect are not appointed to wrath but are saved from wrath by grace.
The Bible's terminology of judgement upon the house of God is that God sends the wrath of man to grow them. The fire is the wickedness of men, persecution, that tries and perfects the saints faith. But according to Peter, the fire of the day of the Lord is for the destruction of ungodly men.
I dont think you understand yet Seth ,
What is more purifying than fire ? what is able to keep Holy , but the Holy Spirit and Fire
The main source we see is Holy Spirit and Fire and God is a consuming Fire . . . .
Consider the Seriphims A seraph (/ˈsɛr.əf/; pl. seraphs or seraphim /ˈsɛr.ə.fɪm/; Hebrew: שְׂרָפִים śərāfîm, singular שָׂרָף śārāf; Latin: seraphi[m], singular seraph[us]; Greek: σεραφείμ) is a type of celestial or heavenly being in Judaism and Christianity.
Literally "burning ones", the word seraph is normally a synonym for serpents when used in the Hebrew Bible. A seminal passage in the Book of Isaiah (Isaiah 6:1-8) used the term to describe fiery six-winged beings that fly around the Throne of God crying "holy, holy, holy". This throne scene, with its triple invocation of holiness (a formula that came to be known as the Trisagion), profoundly influenced subsequent theology, literature and art.
Its influence is frequently seen in works depicting angels, heaven and apotheosis.
Seraphs are mentioned as celestial beings in an influential Hellenistic work, the Book of Enoch, and the Book of Revelation. Tradition places seraphs in the fifth rank of ten in the Jewish angelic hierarchy and the highest rank in the Christian angelic hierarchy.
the coal off the alter had to touch Isaiah s lips in order to purge his SPEECH and speak the truth REV 4
Each one of these four beasts stood and had from its appendages
and over it six surrounding wings, and from within they are full of eyes and are not silent day or night, saying, "Holy, holy, holy, LORD JEHOVAH God Almighty."
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 04:57:33 PM
That God is the source of judgement, I agree. That the elect must drink from the wine of God's wrath I would strongly disagree. The elect are not appointed to wrath but are saved from wrath by grace.
The Bible's terminology of judgement upon the house of God is that God sends the wrath of man to grow them. The fire is the wickedness of men, persecution, that tries and perfects the saints faith. But according to Peter, the fire of the day of the Lord is for the destruction of ungodly men.
Rev 14:9 And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
I find that the wine of wrath that you speak of is before the judgment-lake of fire. It reads
If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
Rev 14:10
he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God
It is not speaking of JUDGMENT the Lake of Fire.
The elect doesn't do that Micah. The fire is only for those who do. According to Christ, those who produce talents will receive the joy of the Lord not darkness and death.
The unprofitable servant receives death.
How about if we read Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."
Quote from: rosered on September 16, 2014, 05:04:55 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 04:57:33 PM
That God is the source of judgement, I agree. That the elect must drink from the wine of God's wrath I would strongly disagree. The elect are not appointed to wrath but are saved from wrath by grace.
The Bible's terminology of judgement upon the house of God is that God sends the wrath of man to grow them. The fire is the wickedness of men, persecution, that tries and perfects the saints faith. But according to Peter, the fire of the day of the Lord is for the destruction of ungodly men.
I dont think you understand yet Seth ,
What is more purifying than fire ? what is able to keep Holy , but the Holy Spirit and Fire
The main source we see is Holy Spirit and Fire and God is a consuming Fire . . . .
Consider the Seriphims A seraph (/ˈsɛr.əf/; pl. seraphs or seraphim /ˈsɛr.ə.fɪm/; Hebrew: שְׂרָפִים śərāfîm, singular שָׂרָף śārāf; Latin: seraphi[m], singular seraph[us]; Greek: σεραφείμ) is a type of celestial or heavenly being in Judaism and Christianity.
Literally "burning ones", the word seraph is normally a synonym for serpents when used in the Hebrew Bible. A seminal passage in the Book of Isaiah (Isaiah 6:1-8) used the term to describe fiery six-winged beings that fly around the Throne of God crying "holy, holy, holy".
This throne scene, with its triple invocation of holiness (a formula that came to be known as the Trisagion), profoundly influenced subsequent theology, literature and art.
Its influence is frequently seen in works depicting angels, heaven and apotheosis.
Seraphs are mentioned as celestial beings in an influential Hellenistic work, the Book of Enoch, and the Book of Revelation. Tradition places seraphs in the fifth rank of ten in the Jewish angelic hierarchy and the highest rank in the Christian angelic hierarchy.
the coal off the alter had to touch Isaiah s lips in order to purge his SPEECH and speak the truth REV 4
Each one of these four beasts stood and had from its appendages and over it six surrounding wings, and from within they are full of eyes and are not silent day or night, saying, "Holy, holy, holy, LORD JEHOVAH God Almighty."
Purification and destruction are not mutually exclusive concepts. The Law of God is NOT death itself. It reveals that those who try to obey it are carnal minded. It's the carnal mind that produces death. The Law reveals that.
Check 2 Peter 3 for what the fire does for ungodly men and where the elect should hope to be instead.
Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.
Rom. 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
1) the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because"it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).
2) for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).
The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!
Quote
Purification and destruction are not mutually exclusive concepts. The Law of God is NOT death itself. It reveals that those who try to obey it are carnal minded. It's the carnal mind that produces death. The Law reveals that.
Have you considered this scripture very descriptive of death ? the letter of the law that kills
2 Cor 3
[b
]But if the ministry of death in The Scripture carved in stone was with glory[/b], so that the children of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face ( that which has been canceled ),
in the context
of both Laws under both covenants
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [c]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9
For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [d]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 05:16:37 PM
The elect doesn't do that Micah. The fire is only for those who do. According to Christ, those who produce talents will receive the joy of the Lord not darkness and death.
The unprofitable servant receives death.
I know the elect do not, that is why I tried to take the "wine of God's wrath" out of the equation of the Lake of Fire.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2014, 05:23:45 PM
Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.
Rom. 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
1) the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because"it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).
2) for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).
The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!
You quoted it yourself. Being dead is to be carnally minded. If you follow the flesh, that death. Walk by the Spirit and you will have life and peace. The Lake of Fire is not life and peace.
Quote from: rosered on September 16, 2014, 05:26:57 PM
Quote
Purification and destruction are not mutually exclusive concepts. The Law of God is NOT death itself. It reveals that those who try to obey it are carnal minded. It's the carnal mind that produces death. The Law reveals that.
Have you considered this scripture very descriptive of death ? the letter of the law that kills
2 Cor 3
[b]But if the ministry of death in The Scripture carved in stone was with glory[/b], so that the children of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face ( that which has been canceled ),
in the context
of both Laws under both covenants
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [c]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [d]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
The Law is immigration of death because of how sin kills us by the commandments. Romans 7. The Law is actually intended unto life. Bubbly the water of life can produce life.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2014, 05:23:45 PM
Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.
Rom. 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
1) the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because"it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).
2) for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).
The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!
:thumbsup:
Yes putting to death the old man and the new one is life in Christ Colss 3 ...4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. 5Therefore c
onsider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience I see that as still under the law of Judgment law liberty
James 2 A Warning against Favoritism ...11For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.
" Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
Quote from: rosered on September 16, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2014, 05:23:45 PM
Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.
Rom. 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
1) the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because"it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).
2) for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).
The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!
:thumbsup:
Yes putting to death the old man and the new one is life in Christ Colss 3 ...4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. 5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience
I see that as still under the law of Judgment law liberty
James 2 A Warning against Favoritism
...11For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.
" Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
the law never, never brought life. That is what the Holy Spirit does. The law only brought death because the power of sin is the law. Our carnal natures are what put us to death when we follow the flesh. That is why the law is called ministration of death. Only the Holy Spirit bring his life and that is why the spirit and the bride say come and drink the water of life freely. Outside is death
is the law ever brought life, we don't need faith.
JEHOVAH GOD IS THE LAW!
Jehovah God is a tree inside the city and the water of life. The law is a ministration of death because of the way it interacts with the carnal mind. you must have the Holy Spirit for life you must have the water of life. Otherwise you have death.
Quote from: rosered on September 16, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2014, 05:23:45 PM
Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.
Rom. 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
1) the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because"it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).
2) for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).
The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!
:thumbsup:
Yes putting to death the old man and the new one is life in Christ Colss 3 ...4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. 5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience
I see that as still under the law of Judgment law liberty
James 2 A Warning against Favoritism
...11For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.
" Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
Jehovah God is a tree inside the city and the water of life. The law is a ministration of death because of the way it interacts with the carnal mind. you must have the Holy Spirit for life you must have the water of life. Otherwise you have death.
Does one have to be judged before they get to that tree?
This idea that the "ministration of death" brings liberty through punishment I believe works against what Paul taught.
Romans 7
5 For when we were in the flesh,
the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.
That is the manner by which the law is a ministration of death VS the ministration of the Spirit.
Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Quote from: Micah7:9Does one have to be judged before they get to that tree?
One must repent and heed the words of the Spirit and the Bride.
Isaaih40;1 Comfort ye,Comfort ye my people. Speak comfortably to Jerusalem. Tell her that her warfare is accomplished.
That her iniquity is pardoned,for she hath rec'd double for all her sins.
Isaaih 52;7 How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, thatpublisheth peace,that
bring good tidings of good,that publisheth salvation.
Isaaih 57;16 I WILL NOT CONTEND FOREVER..NEITHER WILL I ALWAYS BE WROTH......for the spirit would fail before me
and the souls that I have made,
Malachi 3;6 For I AM the LORD,I change not... THEREFORE YE SONS OF MEN ARE NOT CONSUMED
mALACHI 3;17 AND THEY SHALL BE MINE SAYETH THE LRD IN THE DAY I MAKE UP MY JEWELS
AND I WILL SPARE THEM AS A MAN SPARETH HIS SONS
What does it mean to be a cup clean on the outside but not the inside? the Spirit deals with the carnal nature. The Law cannot. That is why sin works with the Law to bring forth "fruit unto death."
I believe the LOF is the motions of sin which bring forth fruit unto death.
The Law is not death UNTO ITSELF. The Law is holy. Sin works to deceive man who is under the Law to bring forth death fruit.
IMO I do not see anywhere in the lake of fire that there is any fruit brought forth, but there will be a destroying and purifying going on bringing about the second death.
I do see somewhere where LIFE is contrasted with DEATH and separated by an open gate, wherein lies the tree of life and the water of life, and how that "the wages of sin is death." And I think the scriptures are abundantly clear that the SPIRIT brings life, not the Law, and not any other thing.
Galatians 3
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Isaiah 9
18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke. 19 Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. 20 And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:
If to be carnally minded is death, that's a pretty good description of it.
2 Peter 3 -
10 and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.
14 wherefore, beloved, these things waiting for, be diligent, spotless and unblameable, by Him to be found in peace,
The elements are not physical, and the fire is not physical either. From what I see in the scripture, the word for "elements" refers to rudimentary, governing principles of man. The fire is reserved for the destruction of the ungodly.
The above fire, does a pretty good job of that, IMHO.
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 05:29:23 PM
You quoted it yourself. Being dead is to be verbally minded. If you follow the flesh, that death. Walk by the Spirit and you will have life and peace. The Lake of Fire is not life and peace.
haha! you must be using a tablet or phone that corrects your spelling.. I know there's fierce debate on verb vs noun, but to be verbally minded is death.. sorry, couldn't resist! :))
LOL, yeah, spell corrector is a double edged sword. :laughing7:
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 07:26:41 PM
The elements are not physical, and the fire is not physical either. From what I see in the scripture, the word for "elements" refers to rudimentary, governing principles of man. The fire is reserved for the destruction of the ungodly.
The above fire, does a pretty good job of that, IMHO.
the ungodly and the world built upon un-godliness -
2 Peter 3:10 "and it will come -- the day of the Lord... ...
earth and the works in it shall be burnt up."
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 07:29:17 PM
LOL, yeah, spell corrector is a double edged sword. :laughing7:
yes, it is! :)
Quotethe ungodly and the world built upon un-godliness -
2 Peter 3:10 "and it will come -- the day of the Lord... ... earth and the works in it shall be burnt up."
I agree, God sends a destroyer to destroy, and to seek what he may destroy. Fire only destroys what it is able to destroy. But the works of the elect shall not be burned because the destroyer cannot touch them.
2 Cor 5:5
And hand this man over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may live in the day of the Lord.
Whatever anyone believes about the Day of the Lord, I think Paul thought Satan had something to do with it. The day of the Lord is for the destruction of the ungodly, so that the spirit may live in the day of the Lord, for the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come, drink the water of life freely."
I see a rushing wind and tongues as of fire come upon those waiting for the promise..........there at pentecost...the token?
....where is the God-less world headed? Did man split the atom? literal on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? now that warfare has been paused for a time R. 7:1
Revelation 6:12-17Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, - imo, ,man's splitting of the atom (is in prophecy)
the description of the seals are a blend of two things [1] what is when seal is 1st opend and [2] what is in fully mature state at late date
and lo, a great earthquake came, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood, (Joe's smoky day, outward occurrance)
13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth -- as a fig-tree doth cast her winter figs, by a great wind being shaken --
Isaiah said the earth will rock to and fro.. thus in sight the stars will appear to fall
14 and heaven departed as a scroll rolled up, and every mountain and island -- out of their places they were moved;
great atmospheric.. somwhat figurative, as population is still on earth as shown in the following verses
15 and the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chiefs of thousands, and the mighty, and every servant, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens, and in the rocks of the mountains,
remember bomb shelters after 1945? I sure do..
16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, `Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of Him who is sitting upon the throne, and from the anger of the Lamb,'
17 because come did the great day of His anger, and who is able to stand?
#[2] of the blend.. two threads.. blended.. this locks much of the vision, for described here so very early in the narrative are things which occur very late on the planet.. (all of course, imo:)
"..it will come -- the day of the Lord... ... earth and the works in it shall be burnt up." 2 Peter 3:10
Man's doing... results and consequences of man's doings.. (imo, an all important lesson)
QuoteI see a rushing wind and tongues as of fire come upon those waiting for the promise..........there at pentecost...the token?
I see those tongues inviting the people from out of their death into life.
Revelation 22
22
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the
tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree
are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever (eis aion aion).
12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 07:33:03 PM
Quotethe ungodly and the world built upon un-godliness -
2 Peter 3:10 "and it will come -- the day of the Lord... ... earth and the works in it shall be burnt up."
I agree, God sends a destroyer to destroy, and to seek what he may destroy. Fire only destroys what it is able to destroy. But the works of the elect shall not be burned because the destroyer cannot touch them.
2 Cor 5:5
And hand this man over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may live in the day of the Lord.
Whatever anyone believes about the Day of the Lord, I think Paul thought Satan had something to do with it. The day of the Lord is for the destruction of the ungodly, so that the spirit may live in the day of the Lord, for the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come, drink the water of life freely."
:iagree: :iagree: Amen! satan&co definitely busy, busy.. all through history and have not stopped nor paused..
the works of the spiritual is others coming to the truth.. that cannot be burned up.. also, anything 'good' can be rebuilt.. but man's world/history.. w/o God will vanish..
(imo) er the world of God-lessness will vanish, not the history which, imo, will be smoke which rises up forever and ever, i.e. the lesson never forgotten..
Quote from: sheila on September 16, 2014, 07:40:50 PM
I see a rushing wind and tongues as of fire come upon those waiting for the promise..........there at pentecost...the token?
Aha! a big difference between the two 'fires'! :))
Yes, "Fire only destroys what it is able to destroy." That's just fire.
Yet the Lord Jehovah IS THE CONSUMING FIRE and that fire will burn up and destroy all that is not HIM. And that CONSUMING FIRE is the very SPIRIT that you spoke of.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire:
And that fire begins when we are drawn to Jesus by the Father, and continues to and through the Lake of Fire- Judgment- the Second Death.
Brother, the water of life is within the city where the throne of God and the Lamb are. The tree is for the "healing of the nations." Here is what they are to be healed from:
Isaiah 9
18For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.
19Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.
20And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:
The tree of life provides healing from the "wrath of the Lord of hosts"
Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Yes, but one has to refined by fire-judgment-Lake of Fire- the Consuming Fire first.
Fire makes us thirsty. Those who thirst for righteousness will be filled. Some people aren't thirsty, so God hands them over to receive in themselves the penalty for thier errors. That is what the wrath of God DOES. That is what the Law did, to bring about a thirst for Christ.
The wrath of God bring repentance and repentance brings life. Why do think God turned Israel over to Babylon for 70 years? Look what it yielded. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not the wine of God's wrath. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the GRACE of God for those who repent. God FIRST brings repentance about, then he provides healing. For God gives grace to the humble but RESISTS the proud.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2014, 08:03:19 PM
Yes, but one has to refined by fire-judgment-Lake of Fire- the Consuming Fire first.
God polishes His own.. is the potter.. He is a consuming fire, but the LOF is the 2nd death and says those not believing / not written in the Book of Life.. go there..
Personally I don't believe very few, if any will go there!
[1] - the two in Rev 20 who are thrown "alive" into the LOF are not, imo, persons but institutions of men
active at the time
- a world beast/body/(the)governance of MAN (Rev 13:1-10, not 11-18)
- and the false prophet (teacher, teaching) which imo, began as a man but is a white smocked magician of modern miracles and wonders who's theory/teaching has turned Christendom on its ear.. the "strong delusion" and "great falling away.. These two will be Gone!! dead/not alive
:banana: :banana:
[2] - the words "those not written in the book of life" / not believing "will go to the LOF" is
only said at the very
end of the chapter,
very last verse.. at the closing of what has (imo) to be a
very long day of judgment/review..
YHWH throw into fire? nah, not imo..
But,
..
the heavens with a rushing noise passing away, and the elements with burning heat dissolved, and earth and the works in it burnt up.. the results of man's 'going it alone' (or seeming to) will, surely(?) never be gforgotten!? ...shall be
a smoke that shall rise up forever and ever.. (
A LOF but not THE 2nd death of which only the very most stubborn of holdouts, if any, imo, will find their selves...
Otherwise why not open the day of judgment for the 2nd resurrection / review / wailing, with those words, instead of close..?
If the subject of the OP is Deuteronomy 4, what did Moses say that the consuming fire would do, if they strayed and worshipped other Gods? It's right there in the text. What was Moses WARNING them God would do, where he would lead them, and how is that any different than what I am saying he will do?
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 08:40:40 PM
If the subject of the OP is Deuteronomy 4, what did Moses say that the consuming fire would do, if they strayed and worshipped other Gods? It's right there in the text. What was Moses WARNING them God would do, where he would lead them, and how is that any different than what I am saying he will do?
Purifies.. consumes all impurity.. all which is not good, and all which is not true..
therefor, to me, man's world cannot continue on and on but will fall and be consumed.. burned away as dross..
Believer's dross is burned away too, but to be thrown into the LOF at the end of judgment day? Only if their name is not written in the book of life..
What is required for one's name to be written in the book of life..
I'm thinking it's an assumption the cleansing fire of God is THE lake of fire, but assumptions should not be built upon, should they?
One who believes has "passed from death into life" do they need further transformation and cleansing? absolutely.. But THE lake of fire "is the 2nd death".. anything further than those words is assumption.. and not necessarily true, or so I would think :)
Quote from: marie glen on September 16, 2014, 09:01:42 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 08:40:40 PM
If the subject of the OP is Deuteronomy 4, what did Moses say that the consuming fire would do, if they strayed and worshipped other Gods? It's right there in the text. What was Moses WARNING them God would do, where he would lead them, and how is that any different than what I am saying he will do?
Purifies.. consumes all impurity.. all which is not good, and all which is not true..
therefor, to me, man's world cannot continue on and on but will fall and be consumed.. burned away as dross..
Believer's dross is burned away too, but to be thrown into the LOF at the end of judgment day? Only if their name is not written in the book of life..
What is required for one's name to be written in the book of life..
I'm thinking it's an assumption the cleansing fire of God is THE lake of fire, but assumptions should not be built upon, should they?
One who believes has "passed from death into life" do they need further transformation and cleansing? absolutely.. But THE lake of fire "is the 2nd death".. anything further than those words is assumption.. and not necessarily true, or so I would think :)
But, I am asking, what does Deuteronomy
SAY God will do if they worship other gods? What does Moses literally say will happen?
Here is what I do NOT see Moses saying: "Our God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God, therefore if you follow after idols, God will give you his fire in the form of the Holy Spirit, and everyone will be happy and joyous, and you don't even need to repent."
No, I don't see Moses saying that. So, what I am asking is, Moses says what God both IS and what he will DO. What does Deuteronomy 4 say that God will DO to those who follow after idols?
John 5;22 For the Father judgeth no man,but hath committed all judgement unto the son.
John 8;15 Ye judge after the flesh. I judge no man,and yet if I do judge,my judgement is true, for I am not alone,
but I and the Father that sent me.
As Supreme judge,Jesus 'waived' the law and it's penalities applying to man.
HE CHOSE SALVATION,NOT DESTRUCTION GRACE AND MERCY,NOT CHARGES AND ACCUSATIONS
PEACE,NOT RECRIMINATIONS
HELL FIRE JUDGEMENT DOCTRINES FOR MANKIND ARE NULL AND VOID
Again, I am asking a very simple question. Anyone who has a Bible can answer it.
What does Moses say will happen to the house of Israel if they follow after idols? It's there in the text. WHAT does the text SAY will happen to them?
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 11:09:45 PM
Again, I am asking a very simple question. Anyone who has a Bible can answer it.
What does Moses say will happen to the house of Israel if they follow after idols? It's there in the text. WHAT does the text SAY will happen to them?
23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee.
24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.27
And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
Seth I can see this as well as the Old Jerusalem being the same as Sodom & Egypt and Babylon , they are all correlated
That identification is pretty clear: Sodom—Egypt—Jerusalem, all in one hand,
each describing the other. God is giving evidence here to solve the identity of the prostitute by comparing Israel to Sodom and Egypt.
Sodom is noted in all of the history of mankind for its sexual sins, and Egypt is known to all biblical students of a harsh and exacting slavery of the Israelitish people.
Thus The New Jerusalem
I see God as having the judgments already set in the earth and the examples are plain to read , even search out and we should , by all means
all the law covenant curses of course..but we are told to Bless and curse not...and a spring shuld not bring forth both bitter and sweet....
Bless God and curse man made in His image.
LOOK! New heavens New Earth..no more curse!
Quote from: rosered on September 16, 2014, 11:18:57 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 11:09:45 PM
Again, I am asking a very simple question. Anyone who has a Bible can answer it.
What does Moses say will happen to the house of Israel if they follow after idols? It's there in the text. WHAT does the text SAY will happen to them?
23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee.
24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
Seth I can see this as well as the Old Jerusalem being the same as Sodom & Egypt and Babylon , they are all correlated
That identification is pretty clear: Sodom—Egypt—Jerusalem, all in one hand,
each describing the other. God is giving evidence here to solve the identity of the prostitute by comparing Israel to Sodom and Egypt.
Sodom is noted in all of the history of mankind for its sexual sins, and Egypt is known to all biblical students of a harsh and exacting slavery of the Israelitish people.
Thus The New Jerusalem
I see God as having the judgments already set in the earth and the examples are plain to read , even search out and we should , by all means
So by saying that "our God is a consuming fire" Moses is warning them, right? He's a jealous God. What happens when you provoke a jealous God through fornication? He's saying he will burn down their house, send them scattering, serving other gods.
Moses is saying that God is a fire, so don't get yourselves burned.
Quote from: sheila on September 16, 2014, 11:20:06 PM
all the law covenant curses of course..but we are told to Bless and curse not...and a spring shuld not bring forth both bitter and sweet....
Bless God and curse man made in His image.
LOOK! New heavens New Earth..no more curse!
It says WAY more than that in Revelation.
If we use Deuteronomy 4 as an interpretation of the LOF, I think Moses' intention is pretty much agreeing with what I have been saying about "death" and "life" and how to move from one to the other.
Quote from: sheila on September 16, 2014, 11:07:55 PM
John 5;22 For the Father judgeth no man,but hath committed all judgement unto the son.
John 8;15 Ye judge after the flesh. I judge no man,and yet if I do judge,my judgement is true, for I am not alone,
but I and the Father that sent me.
As Supreme judge,Jesus 'waived' the law and it's penalities applying to man.
HE CHOSE SALVATION,NOT DESTRUCTION GRACE AND MERCY,NOT CHARGES AND ACCUSATIONS
PEACE,NOT RECRIMINATIONS
HELL FIRE JUDGEMENT DOCTRINES FOR MANKIND ARE NULL AND VOID
one who moses Judges them Sheila the law and ministration of death John 5
Witness of the Scripture
...44"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45
"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about MeThey do not obey the Law of Moses nor will they believe Jesus , and lawlessness is the result 2 Thess
M an of Lawlessness
2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the [a]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your
composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a [c]message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [d]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His [f]coming;
9 that is, the one whose [g]coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God [j]will send upon them [k]a deluding influence so that they will believe ]what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Quote from: rosered on September 16, 2014, 11:27:08 PM
one who moses Judges them Sheila the law and ministration of death John 5
Witness of the Scripture
...44"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me
They do not obey the Law of Moses nor will they believe Jesus , and lawlessness is the result 2 Thess
M an of Lawlessness
2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the [a]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a [c]message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [d]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His [f]coming;
9 that is, the one whose [g]coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God [j]will send upon them [k]a deluding influence so that they will believe ]what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
To me, sending strong delusion is the same as burning down their house. I think that is what Deuteronomy is talking about.
The Law was never death ITSELF. It is a ministration OF death. It CAUSES death, because without the Spirit man can only follow the sin within him. So, sin by the commandment deceives him and slays him, so that he brings forth "fruit unto death." (Romans 7)
For the wages of SIN is death. Paul said that the Law is meant unto life, but I found it to be unto death. Why?
QuoteSo by saying that "our God is a consuming fire" Moses is warning them, right? He's a jealous God. What happens when you provoke a jealous God through fornication? He's saying he will burn down their house, send them scattering, serving other gods.
Moses is saying that God is a fire, so don't get yourselves burned.
I seriously believe all of us have been burned already Seth , its those whom endure the fire and are tried and are save by the fire that become LIKE HIM this suffering is the purging and cleansing fire that purifies and saves us
to avoid them is a good thing , but Jesus WORD says many take the broad path that leads to destruction , very few are given the narrow path ....
they have avoided the fire of destruction , by His making an escape , the few and chosen , but they suffered in the same sufferings of Christ by being hated of the world and made examples by being tormented for His Witness , One and Same witness
Please if you can
Describe the new creature in Christ ? or the serpahims ? or God ? or Jesus ? How are we going to be like Him , How did the one like the son of man with the 3 children in the fire appear in Daniel ?
Yes His Voice is like the sound of many waters , the waters of LIFE freely
but those descriptive and verb words of symbolism show us Fire is a part of the descriptive nature
...13and in the middle of the lampstands
I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and
His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15
His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been
made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters
Rev 15 1Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them
the wrath of God is finished. 2And I saw something
like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name,
standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. 3And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!
Isaih 43;2
Seth ,
QuoteTo me, sending strong delusion is the same as burning down their house. I think that is what Deuteronomy is talking about.
The Law was never death ITSELF. It is a ministration OF death. It CAUSES death, because without the Spirit man can only follow the sin within him. So, sin by the commandment deceives him and slays him, so that he brings forth "fruit unto death." (Romans 7)
For the wages of SIN is death. Paul said that the Law is meant unto life, but I found it to be unto death. Why?
strong delusion to me is Jesus warnings here the false showing lying signs and wonders
For false Messiahs will arise and Prophets of lies, and they will give great signs so as to deceive
, if possible, even the elect.
Quote from: rosered on September 16, 2014, 11:55:18 PM
Seth ,
QuoteTo me, sending strong delusion is the same as burning down their house. I think that is what Deuteronomy is talking about.
The Law was never death ITSELF. It is a ministration OF death. It CAUSES death, because without the Spirit man can only follow the sin within him. So, sin by the commandment deceives him and slays him, so that he brings forth "fruit unto death." (Romans 7)
For the wages of SIN is death. Paul said that the Law is meant unto life, but I found it to be unto death. Why?
strong delusion to me is Jesus warnings here the false showing lying signs and wonders
For false Messiahs will arise and Prophets of lies, and they will give great signs so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Did God ever send a lying spirit to deceive the prophets?
Quote from: roseredI seriously believe all of us have been burned already Seth , its those whom endure the fire and are tried and are save by the fire that become LIKE HIM this suffering is the purging and cleansing fire that purifies and saves us
to avoid them is a good thing , but Jesus WORD says many take the broad path that leads to destruction , very few are given the narrow path ....
I certainly agree. But I don't say "us" until the race is run. According to John, there were some among them which were not of them.
Quote from: roseredDescribe the new creature in Christ ? or the serpahims ? or God ? or Jesus ? How are we going to be like Him , How did the one like the son of man with the 3 children in the fire appear in Daniel ?
Since I believe the saints shall judge the world, it makes sense that they would be associated with fire. But what do God's angels do to the TARES?
What did our consuming fire do to Israel when they followed after idols. God brings a consuming fire to them, and burns down the house. The houses with jems and jewels cannot be burned and they suffer no loss.
But that is not the end of the story. Thought God may afflict, he also heals. So, the Spirit and the Bride say come drink the water of life freely. I believe it is the role of the elect to bring about freedom from the fire (though the source of judgement is from God), by inviting them into the city of God.
Quote from: sheila on September 16, 2014, 11:52:58 PM
Isaih 43;2
1But now, O Jacob, listen to the LORD who created you.
O Israel, the one who formed you says,
"Do not be afraid, for I have ransomed you.
I have called you by name; you are mine.
2When you go through deep waters,
I will be with you.
When you go through rivers of difficulty,
you will not drown.
When you walk through the fire of oppression,
you will not be burned up;
the flames will not consume you.3For I am the LORD, your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.
I gave Egypt as a ransom for your freedom;
I gave Ethiopiaa and Seba in your place.
4Others were given in exchange for you.
I traded their lives for yours
because you are precious to me.
You are honored, and I love you.
5"Do not be afraid, for I am with you.
I will gather you and your children from east and west.
6I will say to the north and south,
'Bring my sons and daughters back to Israel
from the distant corners of the earth.
7Bring all who claim me as their God,
for I have made them for my glory.
It was I who created them.'"
8Bring out the people who have eyes but are blind,
who have ears but are deaf.
9Gather the nations together!
Assemble the peoples of the world!
Which of their idols has ever foretold such things?
Which can predict what will happen tomorrow?
Where are the witnesses of such predictions?
Who can verify that they spoke the truth?
10"But you are my witnesses, O Israel!" says the LORD.
"You are my servant.
You have been chosen to know me, believe in me,
and understand that I alone am God.
There is no other God—
there never has been, and there never will be.
11I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no other Savior.
12First I predicted your rescue,
then I saved you and proclaimed it to the world.
No foreign god has ever done this.
You are witnesses that I am the only God,"
says the LORD.
13"From eternity to eternity I am God.
No one can snatch anyone out of my hand.
No one can undo what I have done."
The LORD's Promise of Victory
14This is what the LORD says—your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
"For your sakes I will send an army against Babylon,
forcing the Babyloniansb to flee in those ships they are so proud of.
15I am the LORD, your Holy One,
Israel's Creator and King.
16I am the LORD, who opened a way through the waters,
making a dry path through the sea.
17I called forth the mighty army of Egypt
with all its chariots and horses.
I drew them beneath the waves, and they drowned,
their lives snuffed out like a smoldering candlewick.
18"But forget all that—
it is nothing compared to what I am going to do.
19For I am about to do something new.
See, I have already begun! Do you not see it?
I will make a pathway through the wilderness.
I will create rivers in the dry wasteland.
20The wild animals in the fields will thank me,
the jackals and owls, too,
for giving them water in the desert.
Yes, I will make rivers in the dry wasteland
so my chosen people can be refreshed.
2
1I have made Israel for myself,
and they will someday honor me before the whole world.Its all good :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2014, 11:58:13 PM
Quote from: rosered on September 16, 2014, 11:55:18 PM
Seth ,
QuoteTo me, sending strong delusion is the same as burning down their house. I think that is what Deuteronomy is talking about.
The Law was never death ITSELF. It is a ministration OF death. It CAUSES death, because without the Spirit man can only follow the sin within him. So, sin by the commandment deceives him and slays him, so that he brings forth "fruit unto death." (Romans 7)
For the wages of SIN is death. Paul said that the Law is meant unto life, but I found it to be unto death. Why?
strong delusion to me is Jesus warnings here the false showing lying signs and wonders
For false Messiahs will arise and Prophets of lies, and they will give great signs so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Did God ever send a lying spirit to deceive the prophets?
We all know he did Seth , even Jeremiah was called the weeping prophet
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
How is that any different than this?
Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
What stronger delusion than to be given over to a carnal mind?
Notice the word "inflamed" in that Romans 1 passage. It comes form the word "ekkaió" meaning to burn.
When Paul spoke about the Law being a ministration of death, he spoke about stone tablets and parchment, the LETTER.
Why suddenly, rather than the judge being the living God, is it suddenly that the letter of the Law is the judge? Because it accuses? If it accuses, I believe it does so accurately, giving us a good report about ourselves. Jesus never said that Moses accused falsely.
But, GOD himself is the judge, and I don't think he needs Moses' help to know who to judge. Who sent Israel into the hands of Babylon, the Law of Moses or God himself? Moses provided a way for the SINNER to understand that he is sold into carnality so that he could begin to find life through the Spirit. WHO SOLD MAN INTO CARNALITY in the first place? Who has blinded the eyes of Israel? The Lake of Fire is not the law. It is death, which is according to the consuming fire who judges. The Law has always been HOLY and holiness is not death unto itself, and its proscribed ways are always unto LIFE. But only the Spirit can impart that life so that man's ways can be put into agreement with love, upon which the Law is hung.
From what I see all throughout scripture is that the wages of sin is death, and always has been.
Here is my way of understanding that God is a consuming fire, and that wickedness is as a fire, and yet both can coincide as a single judgment without contradicting eachother:
Deuteronomy 4
19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are. 21 The Lord was angry with me because of you, and he solemnly swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the Lord your God is giving you as your inheritance. 22 I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan; but you are about to cross over and take possession of that good land. 23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the Lord your God has forbidden. 24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
25 After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time—if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God and arousing his anger, 26 I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess. You will not live there long but will certainly be destroyed. 27 The Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the Lord will drive you. 28 There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.
In that passage, both God and slavemaster Egypt are described as furnace or fire, and when I read the passage, what I see is that God is a fire in the sense that he sends judgment to SEND Israel into slavery, and Egypt is the fire as the AGENT of that takeover. In the case going forward, it would be Babylon. So when I see that "wickedness is as a fire," and that "by the Lord's hand the land is darkened" that does not contradict the notion that God is a consuming fire. They actually coincide with eachother as a form of God's judgment. I see it as another way of saying "I send a destroyer to destroy."
When I see how closely the language of Isaiah 9 matches with John's description of the Lake of Fire, being the "wine of God's wrath" and being death itself, I don't see contradiction between Isaiah 9 and Deuteronomy 4 as BOTH applying to the LOF. Being carnally minded is death. That is exactly what Moses promised that God would send Israel into, a kind of spiritual death. That being the wrath of God, and the tree of life is for the healing of the nations, I see God as both the administer of death, and healing life in the coming Day of the Lord which will come in the future.
I, me, personally, that's me alone, do not accept your teaching. :dsunny:
I haven't presented it as a "teaching" here, but my ideas as to how I believe the scriptures correlate. But I understand your point. We can agree to disagree
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 02:08:14 AM
I haven't presented it as a "teaching" here, but my ideas as to how I believe the scriptures correlate. But I understand your point. We can agree to disagree
I, that's me personally, by myself alone, have read and seen it as teaching, and what upset me the most, that it paralleled, in my opinion, with the teaching of what is called ET. I find your "fire" to oppose the consuming fire that brings righteousness through caring, cleansing, and love. The consuming fire(the LORD) brings forth judgement that purifies, refines and cleanses and proves.
I think I have abided by this forum's rules about how to present ideas and I have respected those who have disagreed. Personally, I see no reason for God to have changed his methods in the Old Testament upon His people to the New Testament upon his people. This is why God's consuming fire is presented both as a warning from Moses and also a warning from the author of Hebrews concerning the spiritual Holy Land and the natural results of failing to enter his rest. The warning still stands. Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience. Those were your words not mine.
and by the way I have never suggested that God works outside of love or that punishment ever lasts forever.
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 03:13:20 AM
I think I have abided by this forum's rules about how to present ideas and I have respected those who have disagreed. Personally, I see no reason for God to have changed his methods in the Old Testament upon His people to the New Testament upon his people. This is why God's consuming fire is presented both as a warning from Moses and also a warning from the author of Hebrews concerning the spiritual Holy Land and the natural results of failing to enter his rest. The warning still stands. Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience. Those were your words not mine.
"Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience."
I most certainly did, that is exactly why the overcomer-elect- chosen would have no fear when he is represented and judged..... for there is no fear within that judgment of fire, the second death.
If it's a "horrible experience" then nothing I have said is contradictory to that. So, your comparison to my belief with ETers is pretty hollow to me. They believe it will be "horrible" too only in a different way.
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 02:08:14 AM
I haven't presented it as a "teaching" here, but my ideas as to how I believe the scriptures correlate. But I understand your point. We can agree to disagree
You have a website for your teaching, what you espouse, so what you say are your "ideas" so there is no reason(imo) why you would not teach what your website teaches. I have found much of your site a healthy teaching.
One thing alot of UR believers like to do is divorce the concept of God being a consuming fire from his being "a jealous God" and then disregard the context in which Moses means that as a warning to his own people.
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 05:06:34 AM
If it's a "horrible experience" then nothing I have said is contradictory to that. So, your comparison to my belief with ETers is pretty hollow to me. They believe it will be "horrible" too only in a different way.
Perhaps :Chinscratch:
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 05:13:30 AM
One thing alot of UR believers like to do is divorce the concept of God being a consuming fire from his being "a jealous God" and then disregard the context in which Moses means that as a warning to his own people.
Not me, myself....He is a consuming fire.
...even a jealous God.
He doesn't change.
I agree, he sure doesn't. Still a jealous God. Careful of those idols...
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2014, 05:12:29 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 02:08:14 AM
I haven't presented it as a "teaching" here, but my ideas as to how I believe the scriptures correlate. But I understand your point. We can agree to disagree
You have a website for your teaching, what you espouse, so what you say are your "ideas" so there is no reason(imo) why you would not teach what your website teaches. I have found much of your site a healthy teaching.
Fair enough about my website, but here I do make an effort to abide by the rules of how to communicate in a non teacherly way, and if I believe am wrong about something, I do accept it. I am a learner at heart, which is why I joined the forum years ago in the first place. I constantly learn from conversing here.
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 05:06:34 AM
If it's a "horrible experience" then nothing I have said is contradictory to that. So, your comparison to my belief with ETers is pretty hollow to me. They believe it will be "horrible" too only in a different way.
I could be off here(this is my belief from my interpretation of the scriptures), but I think I have suggested that the wrath of God is real and aionian kolassis to be very difficult, very intense, to be seriously avoided. However I personally feel "horrible" may be a word that is off a bit, because i don't think it is about horrors. I think it is about being forced to face oneself. I 'theorize" that dying in ones rebellion sets that rebellion in the soul in a way that is like an alloy once the metal has cooled. The process of heating the metal up so that the alloys rise to the surface and separate from what is being purified or recovered - is an EXTREMELY difficult experience(in my view). This is how i think the fire of God, such as the fire in the eyes of Christ(the eye is the lamp of the soul) works in all purification, albeit, an experience that may be less difficult to bear in ones life in the body, than after the resurrection. Whether in the crucible of life, or in the trials of a believer, or in the next world, be it now or then in the LOF or Gehenna(whatever they represents to the various viewpoints represented here)- I believe the nature/principle of the working of the Spirit is the same.
"For all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"
"Every hidden thing will be brought to light"
"I am he that tries the reins and the hearts".
:2c:
I agree. It's about the connotation of words. When I punish my daughter with a time out she is convinced I don't love her. It doesn't feel like love to her, eve though it very much is. She might think its horrible but I know it's really not in the long run. It's all in how we filter it through our understanding. I believe the judgment will be about learning that sin isn't a friend, and that's a hard lesson. It was for me. I was under no physical pain when I learned my lessons about it. Just very sorrowful. But that is what made me call out. One must know they need to be saved before they call out to be saved. I believe my experience was horrible, but not in a horror movie kind of way. In a way where I understood finally the futility of my own way. And that was hard, but it was good for me to understand.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 19, 2014, 07:12:34 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 05:06:34 AM
If it's a "horrible experience" then nothing I have said is contradictory to that. So, your comparison to my belief with ETers is pretty hollow to me. They believe it will be "horrible" too only in a different way.
I could be off here(this is my belief from my interpretation of the scriptures), but I think I have suggested that the wrath of God is real and aionian kolassis to be very difficult, very intense, to be seriously avoided. However I personally feel "horrible" may be a word that is off a bit, because i don't think it is about horrors. I think it is about being forced to face oneself. I 'theorize" that dying in ones rebellion sets that rebellion in the soul in a way that is like an alloy once the metal has cooled. The process of heating the metal up so that the alloys rise to the surface and separate from what is being purified or recovered - is an EXTREMELY difficult experience(in my view). This is how i think the fire of God, such as the fire in the eyes of Christ(the eye is the lamp of the soul) works in all purification, albeit, an experience that may be less difficult to bear in ones life in the body, than after the resurrection. Whether in the crucible of life, or in the trials of a believer, or in the next world, be it now or then in the LOF or Gehenna(whatever they represents to the various viewpoints represented here)- I believe the nature/principle of the working of the Spirit is the same.
"For all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"
"Every hidden thing will be brought to light"
"I am he that tries the reins and the hearts".
:2c:
I so agree with you John and Seth as well !!! ,
I do believe your right , its about the shame and fear involved as well as complete loss , that is darkness of ignorance [how great is the darkness if the Light / knowledge is evil or fruitless ] made for a fire of Gods consuming ,
I have just discovered something else to be considered as well , the 7 lamps of Fire are the 7 churches are the Seven Spirits of God and the FIRE in Christ eyes and flames , this is the presence of the Lamb of God the two anointed ones OLIVE TRESS with 7 lamps who stand with the Lord of the whole earth Zech 4 and revealed in Rev 4 eyes of Fire are the lampstands Light of the world with Rev 11 4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth. This is running the race , the 7 Spirits of God being lit is coming out of the two olive trees anointed oil HOLY SPIRIT WITNESS the law and prophets standing with the LORD OF HOSTS still in power that tree of Jesus teaching that all are hung on these two commandments Love God and your neighbor as yourself and ALL had their blood shed as a sacrifice poured out on the earth as a witness against its violence to the shedding of innocent blood for they are all In Christ annointing First of all, the word "Christ" comes from christos, a Greek word meaning "anointed." It is the equivalent of the word mashiach, or Messiah, in Hebrew. So, to be the Christ, or Messiah, is to be "the anointed one of God." ,,,
the transfiguration , its so important https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+17 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+17)
Oh can you imagine the emptiness one would experience from the core of their being of a complete wasted chance to Know God though Christ and never experienced a real life of Love and Joy and the Holy Spirit witness ?
This fire in the presence of the wrath of the Lamb Rev 14 9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; a
nd he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;
they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Jesus words are not void , those whom hope to save their lives loose it and those whom loose their lives for His sake find it , Have His life in Them , the fruit of Holiness knowing the goodness of God
we should be shouting from the roof tops to those whom can hear , the multitude of many waters , Jesus Voice , faith comes by hearing , that all should be healed
I know this is off topic sort of and yet , but after reading Luke 17 again Jesus healing the ten lepers
I have to say the Law of Moses is still in force and not lost its power to convict of sin exposing sin still and those lepers still having the spot / sin on them leprosy Leviticus 13 concerns the spot and wrinkle on the Body and hairs made white [ Just as Jesus said the heads were white for harvest needing workers and laborers
But those were healed when they went to the priest to be shown , but one come back to PRAISE GOD and Jesus asked was there not 10 and only this one come back a Samaritan / foreigner
Well Jesus told him his faith made him whole , clean and complete , He was the only one given the inward healing as well as the outward healing ! making him entire , pure inside and out
I know all this is choppy , but its much more clear to me and hope this can help others whom God will touch and let the truth come shining though
the HolY SPIRIT AND FIRE has dual purpose and workings always to me
in Isaaih ch 9 and 10..Our Father speaks of the fire and wrath..first the fire of wrath against His disobedient rebellious
people..with all the covenant curses[enemy overun be victorious over them] wickedness consuming as if briars,thorns....
then...then after the people are sufficiently humbled,chastened aand trampled of the wicked ways they have walked in....
ch 10;12......when the Lord has finished all His work against Mt Zion/Jerusalem.......He punishes..the instrument thatwas used
'the rod' to afflict and chastise...the Assyrian in this case...that wickedness not exult,boast in His presence -or axe raise itself
above Hethat wields it. THE LIGHT OF ISRAEL WILL BECOME A FIRE..THE HOLY ONE A FLAME;IN A SINGLE DAY IT WILL CONSUME
HIS THORNS AND BRIARS![see 7 eyes on one stone remove iniquity inone day]
Jesus with eyes of fire and seven letters to the angels of thechurches.......
thus..He uses sin in our flesh..to chastise with all it's evil fruitage...and when overcome of it and it is ruling over us...we do
repent in dust and ashes.....then when pride/rebellion against Him is dealt with in Jerusalem.[repentance in dust and ashes]....He
destroys the very wickedness[sin] that raised up against us...........and lifts us up out of the ash heap to sit in heavenly places..
to a position of ruling over sin..instead of sin/wickedness ruling over us.to ourharm and destruction
That's how I see it. As it says in Jeremiah "Your own wickedness shall correct you" But the leaves are there on the tree for the healing of the nation's. I think it's interesting how God compares Egypt to an iron smelting fire. Smelting is the process of removing the precious metal from the surrounding ore.
There's a psalm where David refers to his sin as "the heat of summer" weighing him down, having no rest day or night. Within the same psalm is a clear desire for God's salvation.
:thumbsup: that very scripture was in my mind,too. good/evil mix doesn't 'cut it' in God's eyes..He will seperate us from sin 100%
the horrors of this world...the rampant evil,murders suffering death....is enough to see the fruitage of sin in all its 'gory'..
the sheer misery of the creation..groans within itself.......yet,we see glimpses of the beauty of what was once a paradise.......
parks,sunsets,tender love ..selfless acts of kindness shown to fellow man..in the midst of the greed corruption and evil that prevails
we see acts of tender mercy salted here and there..remnants of the glory of God in the midst of the corruption that is consuming.
:2thumbs: made me think of Malachi 3 in the sense of this eat my body and drink my blood that you have life in you Jesus Christ could this be a metaphor for the blood of grapes new wine as one of many other comparisions , the bread of Life wheat , the new covenant of the Melchizedek Gen 14
17Then after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley). 18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. 19He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
grapes blood of the innocent and the wheat for harvest the bread and wine
the continual growth and increase of God is to produce new offspring that bear fruits in due season and wheat harvests of the bread and wine ! seeing this in Revelations like crazy now
Christ being the root , being rooted and grounded in Christ and in Love which are what both mean and the same in the LOVE OF CHRIST
the root is still doing the works and never stopped 1Corthin 15 and the winepress blood to drink
...9"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!
10"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.
11"Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes," says the LORD of hosts.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2014, 05:03:57 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 03:13:20 AM
I think I have abided by this forum's rules about how to present ideas and I have respected those who have disagreed. Personally, I see no reason for God to have changed his methods in the Old Testament upon His people to the New Testament upon his people. This is why God's consuming fire is presented both as a warning from Moses and also a warning from the author of Hebrews concerning the spiritual Holy Land and the natural results of failing to enter his rest. The warning still stands. Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience. Those were your words not mine.
"Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience."
I most certainly did, that is exactly why the overcomer-elect- chosen would have no fear when he is represented and judged..... for there is no fear within that judgment of fire, the second death.
I may need to be corrected, but I went through this post about "fire" 3 times and did not find, "Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience." So I must retract "I most certainly did....." what I found was
My last post Sept. 12 #192 Can a believer go to the lake of fire. Is my closest use of "horror"
"It just seems to me (imo) that your understanding has a touch of what is called here ET's, a vendetta of hate with joy with the outcome of the sinner.
ET's desire a continuous burning fire of total horror and they are happy or it seems happy about it.. It is my understanding that God is Love (1 Jo. 4:16) and should that be true even though there will be judgment in the lake of fire it will be coming from a God who is love.
Heb 10:30 for we have known Him who is saying, `Vengeance is Mine, I will recompense, saith the Lord;' and again, `The Lord shall judge His people;' --
Heb 10:31 fearful is the falling into the hands of a living God.
That alone is the message to the sinner."
the whole 'tithe' is all men..bought with the blood/body of Christ..to be His..even the salvation of all men............
and THIS IS ALL THE FRUIT>>>WHEN I TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR SIN...........ALL IN ALL...otherwise God is robbed of what
is rightfully His...they were His to begin with..sold simply for nothing[because of sin] and are redeemed without money.....
too bad you prince of this world..He has come as a thief in the night......to you
Quote from: sheila on September 19, 2014, 05:04:04 PM
the horrors of this world...the rampant evil,murders suffering death....is enough to see the fruitage of sin in all its 'gory'..
the sheer misery of the creation..groans within itself.......yet,we see glimpses of the beauty of what was once a paradise.......
parks,sunsets,tender love ..selfless acts of kindness shown to fellow man..in the midst of the greed corruption and evil that prevails
we see acts of tender mercy salted here and there..remnants of the glory of God in the midst of the corruption that is consuming.
The Lord rewards those whom kill the innocent with bloodshed , the Queen of heaven Babylon is given the BLOOD of the innocents to drink double
portion , no rest day or night
Rev 14
the mark on cain is the mark of sin shedding innocent blood , his mark is a mark of the beast
seeing this as Abel name means In Hebrew the meaning of the name Abel is: Breath; son; breathing spirit. In the Old Testament, Abel was the son of Adam and Eve who was killed by his brother Cain in a fit of jealousy.
and Cain means spear those whom pierced HIM 6and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him,
even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
SPEAR in JESUS SIDE
John 19
...33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced
His side with a spear, and
immediately blood and water came out. 35
And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. This is all showing us that from the foundation of the world we have seen the sacrifice of innocent blood go into the ground and cry out
but Vengeance was always Gods , Jesus come in the fullness of times to open the seals of Gods wrath vengeance is mine says the I SHALL REPAY
as the Lord come not to destroy mens lives but save them from their own destructive ways
Cain and Abel
being the mark of Christ in abel and the mark of the beast in Cain WOE the way of Cain 1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, who was
of that wicked one, seed and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
tree of knowledge of good and evil , representing one good and one evil of the seeds of that tree
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." 16These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
Dont we see yet its the judgement of Holy Spirit and fire
the dual purpose to set the world on fire ! Holy Spirit oil and the fire of Gods consuming
Both destroying the old and making all things new , both are good things and excellent things
:thumbsup: He seperates tares for burning..He seperates chaff from wheat for burning...that He may gather all His wheat
into the storehouse! Surely it is a 'good' work..the Father does through Him..that there be the bread of His presence in
His house. a house of prayer for all men...
Micah..this is in reply to your post #106.... I think there is a real danger for the saints to be corrupted through flatteries........
that is the very thing I have mentioned when I spoke of 'but we are the elect"..and all you lowlifes are going to burn in hell forever
..or even in UR..burn in LOF ...........Israel was corrupted through flatteries..as being a people for special possession..by God
spiritual pride arrogance is a corruption through flattery[as if anyone had a reason to boast..since all have been concluded in sin]
Satan will sift..attempt to draw out..any propensity of pride,arrogance or conceit in us......
When I look at the example of Shadrach, Mechach and Abednego, I notice something that I find interesting:
Daniel 3
19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He (Nebuchadnezzar) ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king's command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace.
What I notice about that, is that the fire was Babylon's fire. Nebuchadnezzar was the one who stoked the fire and made it hot. It's actually a fire intended for wickedness. But notice that even though the Nebuchadnezzar's fire was intended to harm the three Israelites, IT DID harm the soldiers. It backfired and the soldiers were caught up and destroyed by their fire.
26So Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego came out of the fire, 27 and the satraps, prefects, governors and royal advisers crowded around them. They saw that the fire had not harmed their bodies, nor was a hair of their heads singed; their robes were not scorched, and there was no smell of fire on them.
What this actually reminds me of is how Peter says that God used the persecution of the church as a way for the trial of their faith being more precious than gold. But because God stands among them within that fire, they are not harmed. That which was intended for wickedness, God used for good and showed his allegiance to his people through this miracle. And the result is that Nebuchadnezzar praised God.
I think, also, the same methods and modes that persecuters meant to destroy the church, is used of God to ensnare them.
Psalm 9
3When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence. 4For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right. 8And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. 9The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.
10And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. 11Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings. 12When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. 15The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.
16The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands.
:thumbsup: Seth...the enmity of the seeds includes the Heavenly hosts and satan and his messengers[armies]
Malachi 4
The Great Day of the Lord
1"For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff;
and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts,
"so that it will leave them neither root nor branch."
2"But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings;
and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.
3"You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts....
I see the new testament being fulfilled as we speak !!
Quote from: sheila on September 19, 2014, 06:43:12 PM
Micah..this is in reply to your post #106.... I think there is a real danger for the saints to be corrupted through flatteries........
that is the very thing I have mentioned when I spoke of 'but we are the elect"..and all you lowlifes are going to burn in hell forever
..or even in UR..burn in LOF ...........Israel was corrupted through flatteries..as being a people for special possession..by God
spiritual pride arrogance is a corruption through flattery[as if anyone had a reason to boast..since all have been concluded in sin]
Satan will sift..attempt to draw out..any propensity of pride,arrogance or conceit in us......
Where spiritual pride is a concern.
There always seems to be a
them or us.When God separates the wheat from chaff .
He is not separating
them from us.
He is separating my heart for himself.
Quote from: sheila on September 19, 2014, 06:43:12 PM
Micah..this is in reply to your post #106.... I think there is a real danger for the saints to be corrupted through flatteries........
that is the very thing I have mentioned when I spoke of 'but we are the elect"..and all you lowlifes are going to burn in hell forever
..or even in UR..burn in LOF ...........Israel was corrupted through flatteries..as being a people for special possession..by God
spiritual pride arrogance is a corruption through flattery[as if anyone had a reason to boast..since all have been concluded in sin]
Satan will sift..attempt to draw out..any propensity of pride,arrogance or conceit in us......
This was to me I guess would you please explain "that is the very thing I have mentioned when I spoke of 'but we are the elect"..and all you lowlifes are going to burn in hell forever...."
Dajomaco, Jesus himself explains the meaning of the parable.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2014, 05:29:48 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2014, 05:03:57 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 03:13:20 AM
I think I have abided by this forum's rules about how to present ideas and I have respected those who have disagreed. Personally, I see no reason for God to have changed his methods in the Old Testament upon His people to the New Testament upon his people. This is why God's consuming fire is presented both as a warning from Moses and also a warning from the author of Hebrews concerning the spiritual Holy Land and the natural results of failing to enter his rest. The warning still stands. Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience. Those were your words not mine.
"Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience."
I most certainly did, that is exactly why the overcomer-elect- chosen would have no fear when he is represented and judged..... for there is no fear within that judgment of fire, the second death.
I may need to be corrected, but I went through this post about "fire" 3 times and did not find, "Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience." So I must retract "I most certainly did....." what I found was
My last post Sept. 12 #192 Can a believer go to the lake of fire. Is my closest use of "horror"
"It just seems to me (imo) that your understanding has a touch of what is called here ET's, a vendetta of hate with joy with the outcome of the sinner. ET's desire a continuous burning fire of total horror and they are happy or it seems happy about it.. It is my understanding that God is Love (1 Jo. 4:16) and should that be true even though there will be judgment in the lake of fire it will be coming from a God who is love.
Heb 10:30 for we have known Him who is saying, `Vengeance is Mine, I will recompense, saith the Lord;' and again, `The Lord shall judge His people;' --
Heb 10:31 fearful is the falling into the hands of a living God.
That alone is the message to the sinner."
Sorry, the word was "terrible" not "horrible," then you added a bunch of stuff I never even implied, and certainly never said about the judgment.
I am referring to this (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/can-a-believer-go-to-the-lake-of-fire/msg176563/#msg176563).
Sorry for the misquote, but my point is that whether "terrible" or "horrible" I think we can both agree that ETers think it will be both. My point is that just because there is agreement that the judgments of God should be treated with gravity does not mean I speak anything resembling ET doctrine on the whole of it.
Quote from: Micah7:9"It just seems to me (imo) that your understanding has a touch of what is called here ET's, a vendetta of hate with joy with the outcome of the sinner. ET's desire a continuous burning fire of total horror and they are happy or it seems happy about it.. It is my understanding that God is Love
How it "seems" to you is not what I actually said. I have been very consistent by saying that the Spirit and the Bride offer healing to the nations by way of entry into the spiritual City and away from spiritual death. I never said that the saints enjoy anything. In fact I have not touched on their emotional state at all. I have always talked about what they DO in the Day of the Lord.
willtry,Micah..when you said that LOF for some men reeked of ET doctrine...and as if some would take pleasure in seeing thier fellowman
suffer in this way[just as we have wittnessed in some of the churches we come out of] I agree that this is a real pitfall that
those that think they are standing..must be aware of. That no flesh would boast[pride/arrogance/conciet come up in our hearts.]
I believe Paul showed the correct attitude..when the one man was 'cast out' for the destructin of the flesh..that the spirit be
saved on the day of the Lord. He counseled..when such a one recieved this rebuke..and it was sufficient for him..and he sorrowed
over it..that he was to be recieved back in again. also,in the scriptures it speaks about those blinded for a time..but to be
accepted back in again[like Israel that refused Jesus] and when speaking of such..it is also written.......
'BUT WHAT WILL THE RECIEVING OF THEM BACK IN AGAIN BE BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD...............for Paul said....we must not
be ignorant of satan and his designs..to be overcome of him..in hardness of heart.....or not allowing for repentance to have its work
He disciplines and corrects every son He recieves..so we can leave that in His capable hands to handle...heed His commands
and remember no flesh shall boast..not even ours[Lord,Lord did we not do thus and thus]
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 09:43:33 PM
Dajomaco, Jesus himself explains the meaning of the parable.
He Himself will baptize you with[g] the Holy Spirit and fire.
Quote from: sheila on September 19, 2014, 10:14:56 PM
willtry,Micah..when you said that LOF for some men reeked of ET doctrine...and as if some would take pleasure in seeing thier fellowman
suffer in this way[just as we have wittnessed in some of the churches we come out of] I agree that this is a real pitfall that
those that think they are standing..must be aware of. That no flesh would boast[pride/arrogance/conciet come up in our hearts.]
I believe Paul showed the correct attitude..when the one man was 'cast out' for the destructin of the flesh..that the spirit be
saved on the day of the Lord. He counseled..when such a one recieved this rebuke..and it was sufficient for him..and he sorrowed
over it..that he was to be recieved back in again. also,in the scriptures it speaks about those blinded for a time..but to be
accepted back in again[like Israel that refused Jesus] and when speaking of such..it is also written.......
'BUT WHAT WILL THE RECIEVING OF THEM BACK IN AGAIN BE BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD...............for Paul said....we must not
be ignorant of satan and his designs..to be overcome of him..in hardness of heart.....or not allowing for repentance to have its work
He disciplines and corrects every son He recieves..so we can leave that in His capable hands to handle...heed His commands
and remember no flesh shall boast..not even ours[Lord,Lord did we not do thus and thus]
"willtry,Micah..when you said that LOF for some men reeked of ET doctrine...and as if some would take pleasure in seeing thier fellowman"
I believe that what I spoke of was the continued use of "the wine and wrath of God" refering to the lof......I do not believe that the lof fire is the "the wine and wrath of God" I believe that the lof is the final Judgment of ALL dead great and small, which is the second death. And the overcomer/elect have already died the second death. As Paul said, "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
Is not the wine and wrath poured out on the ungodly and the wicked.. Babyon?
I am the one who has been talking about the "wine of God's wrath" the association of it being with the fire and brimstone of Revelation 14.
Revelation 14
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city,
because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
There are many usages of the wine of God's wrath in the scripture, and what it does, and how that Babylon is a cup in the Lord's hand.
Jeremiah 51
6Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.
7Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.Isaiah 9
18For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke. 19Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. 20And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:
Am I supposed to believe these connections are all purely coincidental?
QuoteIs not the wine and wrath poured out on the ungodly and the wicked.. Babyon?
Yes.
That's why God says "come out of her my people that you not receive of her plagues."
Quote from: dajomaco on September 19, 2014, 10:31:42 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 09:43:33 PM
Dajomaco, Jesus himself explains the meaning of the parable.
He Himself will baptize you with[g] the Holy Spirit and fire.
The same fire that the wicked have kindled strengthens the church, but destroys themselves. Ask Nebuchadnezzar's soldiers about that.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 19, 2014, 08:34:03 PM
Quote from: sheila on September 19, 2014, 06:43:12 PM
Micah..this is in reply to your post #106.... I think there is a real danger for the saints to be corrupted through flatteries........
that is the very thing I have mentioned when I spoke of 'but we are the elect"..and all you lowlifes are going to burn in hell forever
..or even in UR..burn in LOF ...........Israel was corrupted through flatteries..as being a people for special possession..by God
spiritual pride arrogance is a corruption through flattery[as if anyone had a reason to boast..since all have been concluded in sin]
Satan will sift..attempt to draw out..any propensity of pride,arrogance or conceit in us......
Where spiritual pride is a concern.
There always seems to be a them or us.
When God separates the wheat from chaff .
He is not separating them from us.
He is separating my heart for himself.
I see this as well Daj !
Everyone who has ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the Fiery Law is what judges us
Paul explains this beautifully in several places
making what is left good and the perfect shall come after :thumbsup:
20
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.[ the firstfruits are those whom come with him But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. H
e is the first of a great harvest of all who have died. ]
21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
7Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping,
that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19whose
end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their
shame, who set their minds on earthly things 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [those as enemies of the cross of Christ ]Phillipians 3 above verses
26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.[Lake of Fire ]
27For "Godc has put all things in subjection under his feet."
But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
28
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.29Otherwise,
what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? [ baptism of Holy Spirit and fire ]
30
Why are we in danger every hour? 31I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!
32What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus?[ brute beastly men]
If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."
33Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals."
34
Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.
The humble heart can open the gates to Truth...
"...Whosoever should not be receiving the kingdom of God as a little child, may under no circumstances be entering into it..." Luke 18:17
"...If you should not be turning and becoming as little children, you may by no means be entering into the kingdom of the heavens..." Matthew 18:3
"...For even the Son of Mankind came, not to be served, but to serve..." Mark 10:45
"...If I should be speaking in the languages of men and of the messengers, yet should have no love, I have become resounding copper or a clanging cymbal..." 1 Corinthians 13:1
"...When arrogance comes, then dishonour shall also come. Yet with the meek is wisdom..." Proverbs 11:2
"...with humility, deeming one another superior to one's self, not each noting that which is his own, but each that of others also. For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also..." Philippians 2
"...He shall cause the humble to tread in right judgment, And He shall teach the humble His way..." Psalms 25:9
"...Lift My yoke upon you and be learning from Me, for meek am I and humble in heart..." Matthew 11:29
The portals to God's Heart open for the humble of heart
Quote from: lastpost on September 20, 2014, 12:45:50 AM
The humble heart can open the gates to Truth...
"...Whosoever should not be receiving the kingdom of God as a little child, may under no circumstances be entering into it..." Luke 18:17
"...If you should not be turning and becoming as little children, you may by no means be entering into the kingdom of the heavens..." Matthew 18:3
"...For even the Son of Mankind came, not to be served, but to serve..." Mark 10:45
"...If I should be speaking in the languages of men and of the messengers, yet should have no love, I have become resounding copper or a clanging cymbal..." 1 Corinthians 13:1
"...When arrogance comes, then dishonour shall also come. Yet with the meek is wisdom..." Proverbs 11:2
"...with humility, deeming one another superior to one's self, not each noting that which is his own, but each that of others also. For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also..." Philippians 2
"...He shall cause the humble to tread in right judgment, And He shall teach the humble His way..." Psalms 25:9
"...Lift My yoke upon you and be learning from Me, for meek am I and humble in heart..." Matthew 11:29
The portals to God's Heart open for the humble of heart
This is beautiful lastpost !! :ty:
:iagree:
Quote from: sheila on September 19, 2014, 06:43:12 PM
Micah..this is in reply to your post #106.... I think there is a real danger for the saints to be corrupted through flatteries........
that is the very thing I have mentioned when I spoke of 'but we are the elect"..and all you lowlifes are going to burn in hell forever
..or even in UR..burn in LOF ...........Israel was corrupted through flatteries..as being a people for special possession..by God
spiritual pride arrogance is a corruption through flattery[as if anyone had a reason to boast..since all have been concluded in sin]
Satan will sift..attempt to draw out..any propensity of pride,arrogance or conceit in us......
"Micah..this is in reply to your post #106..." ? :sigh:? :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2014, 05:29:48 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2014, 05:03:57 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 03:13:20 AM
I think I have abided by this forum's rules about how to present ideas and I have respected those who have disagreed. Personally, I see no reason for God to have changed his methods in the Old Testament upon His people to the New Testament upon his people. This is why God's consuming fire is presented both as a warning from Moses and also a warning from the author of Hebrews concerning the spiritual Holy Land and the natural results of failing to enter his rest. The warning still stands. Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience. Those were your words not mine.
"Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience."
I most certainly did, that is exactly why the overcomer-elect- chosen would have no fear when he is represented and judged..... for there is no fear within that judgment of fire, the second death.
I may need to be corrected, but I went through this post about "fire" 3 times and did not find, "Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience." So I must retract "I most certainly did....." what I found was
My last post Sept. 12 #192 Can a believer go to the lake of fire. Is my closest use of "horror"
"It just seems to me (imo) that your understanding has a touch of what is called here ET's, a vendetta of hate with joy with the outcome of the sinner. ET's desire a continuous burning fire of total horror and they are happy or it seems happy about it.. It is my understanding that God is Love (1 Jo. 4:16) and should that be true even though there will be judgment in the lake of fire it will be coming from a God who is love.
Heb 10:30 for we have known Him who is saying, `Vengeance is Mine, I will recompense, saith the Lord;' and again, `The Lord shall judge His people;' --
Heb 10:31 fearful is the falling into the hands of a living God.
That alone is the message to the sinner."
Dear Bro Micah ,
I can sense your frustration here and not being clear and I know its not directed to me , but hope someone can help in this matter
For me will the lake of Fire be a horror to the dead ?
They are all dead so how can this be a horror to the dead who know nothing ?
I believe it will be a shock , but horror ? I do not believe they even know what is happening to be honest with you
those that are alive in Christ by reading Rev 20 are with Him already in the first resurrection and those who are dead must be made alive in Christ to be presented to the Living God , Jesus said plainly that God is not the God of the dead , but the living and the dead and Living are the Lord Jesus Christ whom is the Lord of the dead and living all things , He will make alive those from the dead and present them to the LIVING GOD HIS FATHER [ Paul says in 1 Cornth 15 THE 1000 year reign is to me the DAY OF THE LORD only because Peter spoke of the day being a 100o years and 1000 years as a Day
In the 7 churches there is a place that says the say they are alive but in fact are dead , dead to who ? God the God of the living , by what standard are they dead to God ? by their works , dead works from dead to God beings .
Rev 20 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out eto deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, fGog and Magog, gto gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded ithe camp of the saints and jthe beloved city, but fire came down from heaven 2 and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Here is a curious verse , why is the earth and sky fleeing from the presence of Christ ? And more so why is there not place for them in the final judgement of Jesus Christ and the WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT ?
For its because the Spirit of prophecy in Peter and others who had the same testimony of Jesus in them telling us the heavens and earth shall be burned up with fervent heat , for me that would be all the earthly & heavenly toils/works of mankind are no more
and now getting down to the spiritual truth of the matter , God is Spirit and truth and those worshiping in Spirit and truth are with Christ to judge by the WORD OF GOD .. those books written of Him the memorial book for the children of Israel , the dead and remembered and the Book of Life
Exodus 17:14 | Read whole chapter |
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
this is the dead as well and the dead works before Hell [grave ] and Death itself is cast into the lake of fire , so the dead know nothing and the dead are made alive in Christ before the giving over to God the Father the GOD OF THE LIVING .
and its all complete and made perfect
12 And
I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And
the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it,Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, taccording to what they had done. 14 Then uDeath and Hades vwere thrown into the lake of fire. This is wthe second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, xhe was thrown into the lake of fire.
I believe the Judgments of Christ and the Lord God are vital in the cleansing and purification process in order to make all things new and HOLY restored
the dead awaken to shame and disappointment by are yet saved by the fire , That is how I can see it now bro M ,
and if God is willing we will see it better as the Lord gives His increase of knowledge of Him and understanding in our hearts
Quote from: rosered on September 21, 2014, 07:23:52 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2014, 05:29:48 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2014, 05:03:57 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 03:13:20 AM
I think I have abided by this forum's rules about how to present ideas and I have respected those who have disagreed. Personally, I see no reason for God to have changed his methods in the Old Testament upon His people to the New Testament upon his people. This is why God's consuming fire is presented both as a warning from Moses and also a warning from the author of Hebrews concerning the spiritual Holy Land and the natural results of failing to enter his rest. The warning still stands. Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience. Those were your words not mine.
"Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience."
I most certainly did, that is exactly why the overcomer-elect- chosen would have no fear when he is represented and judged..... for there is no fear within that judgment of fire, the second death.
I may need to be corrected, but I went through this post about "fire" 3 times and did not find, "Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience." So I must retract "I most certainly did....." what I found was
My last post Sept. 12 #192 Can a believer go to the lake of fire. Is my closest use of "horror"
"It just seems to me (imo) that your understanding has a touch of what is called here ET's, a vendetta of hate with joy with the outcome of the sinner. ET's desire a continuous burning fire of total horror and they are happy or it seems happy about it.. It is my understanding that God is Love (1 Jo. 4:16) and should that be true even though there will be judgment in the lake of fire it will be coming from a God who is love.
Heb 10:30 for we have known Him who is saying, `Vengeance is Mine, I will recompense, saith the Lord;' and again, `The Lord shall judge His people;' --
Heb 10:31 fearful is the falling into the hands of a living God.
That alone is the message to the sinner."
Dear Bro Micah ,
I can sense your frustration here and not being clear and I know its not directed to me , but hope someone can help in this matter
For me will the lake of Fire be a horror to the dead ?
They are all dead so how can this be a horror to the dead who know nothing ?
I believe it will be a shock , but horror ? I do not believe they even know what is happening to be honest with you
those that are alive in Christ by reading Rev 20 are with Him already in the first resurrection and those who are dead must be made alive in Christ to be presented to the Living God , Jesus said plainly that God is not the God of the dead , but the living and the dead and Living are the Lord Jesus Christ whom is the Lord of the dead and living all things , He will make alive those from the dead and present them to the LIVING GOD HIS FATHER [ Paul says in 1 Cornth 15 THE 1000 year reign is to me the DAY OF THE LORD only because Peter spoke of the day being a 100o years and 1000 years as a Day
In the 7 churches there is a place that says the say they are alive but in fact are dead , dead to who ? God the God of the living , by what standard are they dead to God ? by their works , dead works from dead to God beings .
Rev 20 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out eto deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, fGog and Magog, gto gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded ithe camp of the saints and jthe beloved city, but fire came down from heaven 2 and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Here is a curious verse , why is the earth and sky fleeing from the presence of Christ ? And more so why is there not place for them in the final judgement of Jesus Christ and the WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT ?
For its because the Spirit of prophecy in Peter and others who had the same testimony of Jesus in them telling us the heavens and earth shall be burned up with fervent heat , for me that would be all the earthly & heavenly toils/works of mankind are no more
and now getting down to the spiritual truth of the matter , God is Spirit and truth and those worshiping in Spirit and truth are with Christ to judge by the WORD OF GOD .. those books written of Him the memorial book for the children of Israel , the dead and remembered and the Book of Life
Exodus 17:14 | Read whole chapter |
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
this is the dead as well and the dead works before Hell [grave ] and Death itself is cast into the lake of fire , so the dead know nothing and the dead are made alive in Christ before the giving over to God the Father the GOD OF THE LIVING .
and its all complete and made perfect
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it,Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, taccording to what they had done. 14 Then uDeath and Hades vwere thrown into the lake of fire. This is wthe second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, xhe was thrown into the lake of fire.
I believe the Judgments of Christ and the Lord God are vital in the cleansing and purification process in order to make all things new and HOLY restored
the dead awaken to shame and disappointment by are yet saved by the fire , That is how I can see it now bro M ,
and if God is willing we will see it better as the Lord gives His increase of knowledge of Him and understanding in our hearts
Did you get this part? "I may need to be corrected, but I went through this post about "fire" 3 times and
did not find, "Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience." So I must retract "I most certainly did....."
what I found was"Also there is no frustration on my part. But thanks for a concern about the misquoted horror.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2014, 03:28:02 AM
Quote from: rosered on September 21, 2014, 07:23:52 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2014, 05:29:48 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2014, 05:03:57 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 19, 2014, 03:13:20 AM
I think I have abided by this forum's rules about how to present ideas and I have respected those who have disagreed. Personally, I see no reason for God to have changed his methods in the Old Testament upon His people to the New Testament upon his people. This is why God's consuming fire is presented both as a warning from Moses and also a warning from the author of Hebrews concerning the spiritual Holy Land and the natural results of failing to enter his rest. The warning still stands. Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience. Those were your words not mine.
"Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience."
I most certainly did, that is exactly why the overcomer-elect- chosen would have no fear when he is represented and judged..... for there is no fear within that judgment of fire, the second death.
I may need to be corrected, but I went through this post about "fire" 3 times and did not find, "Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience." So I must retract "I most certainly did....." what I found was
My last post Sept. 12 #192 Can a believer go to the lake of fire. Is my closest use of "horror"
"It just seems to me (imo) that your understanding has a touch of what is called here ET's, a vendetta of hate with joy with the outcome of the sinner. ET's desire a continuous burning fire of total horror and they are happy or it seems happy about it.. It is my understanding that God is Love (1 Jo. 4:16) and should that be true even though there will be judgment in the lake of fire it will be coming from a God who is love.
Heb 10:30 for we have known Him who is saying, `Vengeance is Mine, I will recompense, saith the Lord;' and again, `The Lord shall judge His people;' --
Heb 10:31 fearful is the falling into the hands of a living God.
That alone is the message to the sinner."
Dear Bro Micah ,
I can sense your frustration here and not being clear and I know its not directed to me , but hope someone can help in this matter
For me will the lake of Fire be a horror to the dead ?
They are all dead so how can this be a horror to the dead who know nothing ?
I believe it will be a shock , but horror ? I do not believe they even know what is happening to be honest with you
those that are alive in Christ by reading Rev 20 are with Him already in the first resurrection and those who are dead must be made alive in Christ to be presented to the Living God , Jesus said plainly that God is not the God of the dead , but the living and the dead and Living are the Lord Jesus Christ whom is the Lord of the dead and living all things , He will make alive those from the dead and present them to the LIVING GOD HIS FATHER [ Paul says in 1 Cornth 15 THE 1000 year reign is to me the DAY OF THE LORD only because Peter spoke of the day being a 100o years and 1000 years as a Day
In the 7 churches there is a place that says the say they are alive but in fact are dead , dead to who ? God the God of the living , by what standard are they dead to God ? by their works , dead works from dead to God beings .
Rev 20 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out eto deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, fGog and Magog, gto gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded ithe camp of the saints and jthe beloved city, but fire came down from heaven 2 and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Here is a curious verse , why is the earth and sky fleeing from the presence of Christ ? And more so why is there not place for them in the final judgement of Jesus Christ and the WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT ?
For its because the Spirit of prophecy in Peter and others who had the same testimony of Jesus in them telling us the heavens and earth shall be burned up with fervent heat , for me that would be all the earthly & heavenly toils/works of mankind are no more
and now getting down to the spiritual truth of the matter , God is Spirit and truth and those worshiping in Spirit and truth are with Christ to judge by the WORD OF GOD .. those books written of Him the memorial book for the children of Israel , the dead and remembered and the Book of Life
Exodus 17:14 | Read whole chapter |
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
this is the dead as well and the dead works before Hell [grave ] and Death itself is cast into the lake of fire , so the dead know nothing and the dead are made alive in Christ before the giving over to God the Father the GOD OF THE LIVING .
and its all complete and made perfect
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it,Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, taccording to what they had done. 14 Then uDeath and Hades vwere thrown into the lake of fire. This is wthe second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, xhe was thrown into the lake of fire.
I believe the Judgments of Christ and the Lord God are vital in the cleansing and purification process in order to make all things new and HOLY restored
the dead awaken to shame and disappointment by are yet saved by the fire , That is how I can see it now bro M ,
and if God is willing we will see it better as the Lord gives His increase of knowledge of Him and understanding in our hearts
Did you get this part? "I may need to be corrected, but I went through this post about "fire" 3 times and did not find, "Even you admitted that whatever was going on in the lake of fire was most likely a horrible experience." So I must retract "I most certainly did....." what I found was"
Also there is no frustration on my part. But thanks for a concern about the misquoted horror.
The irony is that now you are misquoting me. I didn't say "horror" and I think if it's a serious line drawn between "horrible" and "terrible" I think that's splitting hairs a bit. You did say that the LOF will be terrible.
You might be right, I might be splitting hairs a bit. I wasnt quoting you tho, and as I shared before, my responses are primarily in the flow of the thread- not intended to critique, so I wasnt critiquing you. You share a lot of posts, so I am responding conversationally, not critically. While the LOF will be terrible(as we agree apparently :o) I always try to bring the discussion of it back around to light consuming darkness and the fire bringing every hidden thing to light, because IMO thats what it will be for.
John sorry, that wasn't in response to you. I am learning I need to use the quote button more :laughing7:. I'll edit above.
LOL.... ok maybe I need to read further back before I respond as wel :laugh:
It will be great and terrible day Lord !!
the shame and disappointment of those thinking they were doing Gods service and finding out , they were workers of iniquity
embarrassed for sure standing before the Lord with no means to justify themselves
that fire and sting of death upon them sure will feel very small and very insignificant and HELPLESS ! and at the MERCY OF JESUS CHRIST
terrible to fear, revere, be afraid
(Qal)
to fear, be afraid
to stand in awe of, be awed
to fear, reverence, honour, respect
(Niphal)
to be fearful, be dreadful, be feared
to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe
to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe
(Piel) to make afraid, terrify
(TWOT) to shoot, pour
Zeph 1 14 "That terrible day of the LORD is near. Swiftly it comes -- a day when strong men will cry bitterly.
15 It is a day when the LORD's anger will be poured out. It is a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, of clouds, blackness,
16 trumpet calls, and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and strongest battlements!"
17 "Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path. Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground."
18 Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD's anger. For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy. He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth.
I believe there has been a huge misunderstanding in all this mess
I always claimed the fire nature of God is real and so are those who are with Him already and joined with Him
it is the scatted abroad and the ones who scatter against Christ , all the anti-Christ spirits
I have never tried to say the lake of fire will be a pleasant experience for most
Most do not belong to the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE the whole world lies in wickedness ever continually before the Lord of Hosts
This Fire is Gods Fire
Those who are with HIM ARE JUST LIKE HIM
what of James and John Jesus called them sons of thunder shall we bring fire down from heaven ???Among them are "James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)" (Mark 3:17)
Jesus told them you do not know what spirit you are of , I have come to save mankind lives not destroy them .
they were of the old Elijah company still and Jesus chose them to teach them the WAY OF PEACE , Jerusalem means teaching of peace
and had already come , this is good for the LIES and False First must come to start over clean and empty , now Christ the perfect and excellent to come and rebuild in the teaching peace
, such is the example of Elijah fire 2 Kings 10 Elijah responded to the captain of the 50, "If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your 50 men." Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his 50 men.
a destruction of all false and misleading gods before the coming of Jesus Christ
and Jesus Fire is of division LUKE 12 49 dividing the True from the false and the wicked fire of lies and false and evil if Satan is casting out Satan, he is divided and fighting against himself. His own kingdom will not survive.
Proof that Gods fiery Law consumes the false ,liars and wicked ones /evil spirits which is the good and than comes the
excellent things of Christ to built up in LOVE and Truth for the place to remain HOLY , that fire , That keeps the Way and protects the Tree of Life
the sword/ the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. S/WORD of fire keeps the way tree of life Genesis 3:22-24: I do not think you can enter without that HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE though the east the rising Son of Righteousness
and note how do those wicked become ashes under your feet unless you are in the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE ??? metaphorically speaking /spiritually speaking of course , the lamps of Fire
mAL 4 2The Great Day of the Lord
1"For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." 2"But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3"You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.
"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."
that keeping Holy , pure is a continual burning to me
this is where we differ most certainly