Deu 4:24 for Jehovah thy God is a fire consuming--a zealous God.

[Seth]

the ungodly and the world built upon un-godliness -

2 Peter 3:10 "and it will come -- the day of the Lord... ... earth and the works in it shall be burnt up."

I agree, God sends a destroyer to destroy, and to seek what he may destroy. Fire only destroys what it is able to destroy. But the works of the elect shall not be burned because the destroyer cannot touch them.

2 Cor 5:5
And hand this man over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may live in the day of the Lord.


Whatever anyone believes about the Day of the Lord, I think Paul thought Satan had something to do with it. The day of the Lord is for the destruction of the ungodly, so that the spirit may live in the day of the Lord, for the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come, drink the water of life freely."

[sheila]

   I see a rushing wind and tongues as of fire come upon those waiting for the promise..........there at pentecost...the token?

[marie glen]

....where is the God-less world headed? Did man split the atom? literal on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? now that warfare has been paused for a time R. 7:1
Revelation 6:12-17Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, - imo, ,man's splitting of the atom (is in prophecy)


the description of the seals are a blend of two things [1] what is when seal is 1st opend and [2] what is in fully mature state at late date

and lo, a great earthquake came, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood,  (Joe's smoky day, outward occurrance)


13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth -- as a fig-tree doth cast her winter figs, by a great wind being shaken -- 

Isaiah said the earth will rock to and fro.. thus in sight the stars will appear to fall


14 and heaven departed as a scroll rolled up, and every mountain and island -- out of their places they were moved;


great atmospheric.. somwhat figurative, as population is still on earth as shown in the following verses

15 and the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chiefs of thousands, and the mighty, and every servant, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens, and in the rocks of the mountains,

remember bomb shelters after 1945? I sure do..

16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, `Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of Him who is sitting upon the throne, and from the anger of the Lamb,'
17 because come did the great day of His anger, and who is able to stand?

                    #[2] of the blend.. two threads.. blended.. this locks much of the vision, for described here so very early in the narrative are things which occur very late on the planet.. (all of course, imo:)

"..it will come -- the day of the Lord... ... earth and the works in it shall be burnt up." 2 Peter 3:10

Man's doing... results and consequences of man's doings.. (imo, an all important lesson)

[Seth]

I see a rushing wind and tongues as of fire come upon those waiting for the promise..........there at pentecost...the token?

I see those tongues inviting the people from out of their death into life.

Revelation 22
22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever (eis aion aion).

12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." 17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

[marie glen]

the ungodly and the world built upon un-godliness -

2 Peter 3:10 "and it will come -- the day of the Lord... ... earth and the works in it shall be burnt up."

I agree, God sends a destroyer to destroy, and to seek what he may destroy. Fire only destroys what it is able to destroy. But the works of the elect shall not be burned because the destroyer cannot touch them.

2 Cor 5:5
And hand this man over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may live in the day of the Lord.


Whatever anyone believes about the Day of the Lord, I think Paul thought Satan had something to do with it. The day of the Lord is for the destruction of the ungodly, so that the spirit may live in the day of the Lord, for the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come, drink the water of life freely."

:iagree: :iagree: Amen! satan&co definitely busy, busy.. all through history and have not stopped nor paused..

the works of the spiritual is others coming to the truth.. that cannot be burned up.. also, anything 'good' can be rebuilt.. but man's world/history.. w/o God will vanish..

(imo) er the world of God-lessness will vanish, not the history which, imo, will be smoke which rises up forever and ever, i.e. the lesson never forgotten..

   I see a rushing wind and tongues as of fire come upon those waiting for the promise..........there at pentecost...the token?

Aha! a big difference between the two 'fires'! :))

[micah7:9]

Yes, "Fire only destroys what it is able to destroy."  That's just fire.
Yet the Lord Jehovah IS THE CONSUMING FIRE  and that fire will burn up and destroy all that is not HIM. And that CONSUMING FIRE is the very SPIRIT that you spoke of.

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire:
And that fire begins when we are drawn to Jesus by the Father, and continues to and through the Lake of Fire- Judgment- the Second Death.

[Seth]

Brother, the water of life is within the city where the throne of God and the Lamb are. The tree is for the "healing of the nations." Here is what they are to be healed from:

Isaiah 9
18For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

19Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

20And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:

The tree of life provides healing from the "wrath of the Lord of hosts"

Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

[micah7:9]

Yes, but one has to refined by fire-judgment-Lake of Fire- the Consuming Fire first.

[Seth]

Fire makes us thirsty. Those who thirst for righteousness will be filled. Some people aren't thirsty, so God hands them over to receive in themselves the penalty for thier errors. That is what the wrath of God DOES. That is what the Law did, to bring about a thirst for Christ.

[Seth]

The wrath of God bring repentance and repentance brings life. Why do think God turned Israel over to Babylon for 70 years? Look what it yielded. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not the wine of God's wrath. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the GRACE of God for those who repent. God FIRST brings repentance about, then he provides healing. For God gives grace to the humble but RESISTS the proud.

[marie glen]

Yes, but one has to refined by fire-judgment-Lake of Fire- the Consuming Fire first.

God polishes His own.. is the potter.. He is a consuming fire, but the LOF is the 2nd death and says those not believing / not written in the Book of Life.. go there..

Personally I don't believe very few, if any will go there!

[1] - the two in Rev 20 who are thrown "alive" into the LOF are not, imo, persons but institutions of men active at the time
- a world beast/body/(the)governance of MAN (Rev 13:1-10, not 11-18)
- and the false prophet (teacher, teaching) which imo, began as a man but is a white smocked magician of modern miracles and wonders who's theory/teaching has turned Christendom on its ear.. the "strong delusion" and "great falling away.. These two will be Gone!! dead/not alive
                 :banana: :banana:

[2] - the words "those not written in the book of life" / not believing "will go to the LOF" is only said at the very end of the chapter, very last verse.. at the closing of what has (imo) to be a very long day of judgment/review..

YHWH throw into fire? nah, not imo..

But,

..the heavens with a rushing noise passing away, and the elements with burning heat dissolved, and earth and the works in it burnt up.. the results of man's 'going it alone' (or seeming to) will, surely(?) never be gforgotten!? ...shall be a smoke that shall rise up forever and ever.. (A LOF but not THE 2nd death of which only the very most stubborn of holdouts, if any, imo, will find their selves...

Otherwise why not open the day of judgment for the 2nd resurrection / review / wailing, with those words, instead of close..?

[Seth]

If the subject of the OP is Deuteronomy 4, what did Moses say that the consuming fire would do, if they strayed and worshipped other Gods? It's right there in the text. What was Moses WARNING them God would do, where he would lead them, and how is that any different than what I am saying he will do?

[marie glen]

If the subject of the OP is Deuteronomy 4, what did Moses say that the consuming fire would do, if they strayed and worshipped other Gods? It's right there in the text. What was Moses WARNING them God would do, where he would lead them, and how is that any different than what I am saying he will do?

Purifies.. consumes all impurity.. all which is not good, and all which is not true..

therefor, to me, man's world cannot continue on and on but will fall and be consumed.. burned away as dross..

Believer's dross is burned away too, but to be thrown into the LOF at the end of judgment day? Only if their name is not written in the book of life..

What is required for one's name to be written in the book of life..

I'm thinking it's an assumption the cleansing fire of God is THE lake of fire, but assumptions should not be built upon, should they?

One who believes has "passed from death into life" do they need further transformation and cleansing? absolutely.. But THE lake of fire "is the 2nd death".. anything further than those words is assumption.. and not necessarily true, or so I would think :)

[Seth]

If the subject of the OP is Deuteronomy 4, what did Moses say that the consuming fire would do, if they strayed and worshipped other Gods? It's right there in the text. What was Moses WARNING them God would do, where he would lead them, and how is that any different than what I am saying he will do?

Purifies.. consumes all impurity.. all which is not good, and all which is not true..

therefor, to me, man's world cannot continue on and on but will fall and be consumed.. burned away as dross..

Believer's dross is burned away too, but to be thrown into the LOF at the end of judgment day? Only if their name is not written in the book of life..

What is required for one's name to be written in the book of life..

I'm thinking it's an assumption the cleansing fire of God is THE lake of fire, but assumptions should not be built upon, should they?

One who believes has "passed from death into life" do they need further transformation and cleansing? absolutely.. But THE lake of fire "is the 2nd death".. anything further than those words is assumption.. and not necessarily true, or so I would think :)

But, I am asking, what does Deuteronomy SAY God will do if they worship other gods? What does Moses literally say will happen?

[Seth]

Here is what I do NOT see Moses saying: "Our God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God, therefore if you follow after idols, God will give you his fire in the form of the Holy Spirit, and everyone will be happy and joyous, and you don't even need to repent."

No, I don't see Moses saying that. So, what I am asking is, Moses says what God both IS and what he will DO. What does Deuteronomy 4 say that God will DO to those who follow after idols?

[sheila]

John 5;22  For the Father judgeth no man,but hath committed all judgement unto the son.

  John 8;15 Ye judge after the flesh. I judge no man,and yet if I do judge,my judgement is true, for I am not alone,

  but I and  the Father that sent me.

   As Supreme judge,Jesus 'waived' the law and it's penalities applying to man.

   HE CHOSE SALVATION,NOT DESTRUCTION  GRACE AND MERCY,NOT CHARGES AND ACCUSATIONS

   PEACE,NOT RECRIMINATIONS

  HELL FIRE JUDGEMENT DOCTRINES FOR MANKIND ARE NULL AND VOID

[Seth]

Again, I am asking a very simple question. Anyone who has a Bible can answer it.

What does Moses say will happen to the house of Israel if they follow after idols? It's there in the text. WHAT does the text SAY will happen to them?

[rosered]

Again, I am asking a very simple question. Anyone who has a Bible can answer it.

What does Moses say will happen to the house of Israel if they follow after idols? It's there in the text. WHAT does the text SAY will happen to them?

23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee.

24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:

26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.

28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.


Seth I can see this as well as the Old Jerusalem being  the same as Sodom & Egypt  and  Babylon  , they are  all correlated 


  That identification is pretty clear: Sodom—Egypt—Jerusalem, all in one hand,

each describing the other. God is giving evidence here to solve the identity of the prostitute by comparing Israel to Sodom and Egypt.

Sodom is noted in all of the history of mankind for its sexual sins, and Egypt is known to all biblical students of a harsh and exacting slavery of the Israelitish people.

Thus   The New Jerusalem     

   I see God as  having the judgments already set in the earth    and the examples   are plain to read   , even search out    and we should   , by all means 

[sheila]

all the law covenant curses of course..but we are told to Bless and curse not...and a spring shuld not bring forth both bitter and sweet....

  Bless God and curse man made in His image.

  LOOK! New heavens  New Earth..no more curse!

[Seth]

Again, I am asking a very simple question. Anyone who has a Bible can answer it.

What does Moses say will happen to the house of Israel if they follow after idols? It's there in the text. WHAT does the text SAY will happen to them?

23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee.

24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:

26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.

28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.


Seth I can see this as well as the Old Jerusalem being  the same as Sodom & Egypt  and  Babylon  , they are  all correlated 


  That identification is pretty clear: Sodom—Egypt—Jerusalem, all in one hand,

each describing the other. God is giving evidence here to solve the identity of the prostitute by comparing Israel to Sodom and Egypt.

Sodom is noted in all of the history of mankind for its sexual sins, and Egypt is known to all biblical students of a harsh and exacting slavery of the Israelitish people.

Thus   The New Jerusalem     

   I see God as  having the judgments already set in the earth    and the examples   are plain to read   , even search out    and we should   , by all means

So by saying that "our God is a consuming fire" Moses is warning them, right? He's a jealous God. What happens when you provoke a jealous God through fornication? He's saying he will burn down their house, send them scattering, serving other gods.

Moses is saying that God is a fire, so don't get yourselves burned.

[Seth]

all the law covenant curses of course..but we are told to Bless and curse not...and a spring shuld not bring forth both bitter and sweet....

  Bless God and curse man made in His image.

  LOOK! New heavens  New Earth..no more curse!

It says WAY more than that in Revelation.

If we use Deuteronomy 4 as an interpretation of the LOF, I think Moses' intention is pretty much agreeing with what I have been saying about "death" and "life" and how to move from one to the other.

[rosered]

John 5;22  For the Father judgeth no man,but hath committed all judgement unto the son.

  John 8;15 Ye judge after the flesh. I judge no man,and yet if I do judge,my judgement is true, for I am not alone,

  but I and  the Father that sent me.

   As Supreme judge,Jesus 'waived' the law and it's penalities applying to man.

   HE CHOSE SALVATION,NOT DESTRUCTION  GRACE AND MERCY,NOT CHARGES AND ACCUSATIONS

   PEACE,NOT RECRIMINATIONS

  HELL FIRE JUDGEMENT DOCTRINES FOR MANKIND ARE NULL AND VOID

   one who    moses Judges   them Sheila the law and ministration of death  John  5

Witness of the Scripture
...44"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?



45"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me


They do not obey the  Law of Moses  nor will they believe Jesus    ,  and  lawlessness  is the    result   2 Thess

M an of Lawlessness
2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the [a]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,



2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a [c]message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [d]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.


5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?



6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.


7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His [f]coming;


9 that is, the one whose [g]coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,


10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God [j]will send upon them [k]a deluding influence so that they will believe ]what is false,

12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

[Seth]

   one who    moses Judges   them Sheila the law and ministration of death  John  5

Witness of the Scripture
...44"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?



45"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me


They do not obey the  Law of Moses  nor will they believe Jesus    ,  and  lawlessness  is the    result   2 Thess

M an of Lawlessness
2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the [a]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,



2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a [c]message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [d]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.


5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?



6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.


7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His [f]coming;


9 that is, the one whose [g]coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,


10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God [j]will send upon them [k]a deluding influence so that they will believe ]what is false,

12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

To me, sending strong delusion is the same as burning down their house. I think that is what Deuteronomy is talking about.

The Law was never death ITSELF. It is a ministration OF death. It CAUSES death, because without the Spirit man can only follow the sin within him. So, sin by the commandment deceives him and slays him, so that he brings forth "fruit unto death." (Romans 7)

For the wages of SIN is death. Paul said that the Law is meant unto life, but I found it to be unto death. Why?

[rosered]

So by saying that "our God is a consuming fire" Moses is warning them, right? He's a jealous God. What happens when you provoke a jealous God through fornication? He's saying he will burn down their house, send them scattering, serving other gods.

Moses is saying that God is a fire, so don't get yourselves burned.

I  seriously believe all of us have been burned already    Seth   , its  those whom    endure the fire  and are tried     and are  save by the fire that become LIKE HIM   this   suffering   is the purging and cleansing fire that   purifies     and saves us   
    to avoid them is a good thing , but Jesus WORD says  many take the broad path that leads to destruction  , very few     are given the narrow path ....   

   they have avoided    the  fire of destruction  , by His making an escape      , the few  and chosen  , but they suffered    in the same sufferings of Christ by being   hated of the world and made examples     by being tormented       for His Witness      , One and Same witness     

  Please if you can   

Describe     the new creature in Christ ?    or the serpahims    ?    or God  ?  or Jesus ?      How are we going to be like Him , How did the one like the son of man with the  3 children in the  fire appear in Daniel ?   


  Yes His Voice is like the sound of many waters       , the waters of LIFE freely
  but    those  descriptive   and  verb    words     of symbolism        show us        Fire is a part of the descriptive  nature


...13and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters
   
   Rev 15 1Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.


2And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God

. 3And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!

[sheila]

Isaih 43;2