Can a believer go to the Lake of Fire?

[rosered]

Revelation 18
1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (these will be made known later in the passage). 5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6Reward her even as (hos - in like manner, such as) she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled, fill to her double. 7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong  the Lord God who judgeth her.

Her sins have reached heaven. Kinda reminds me how "wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke." The SAME CUP she gave others, SHE drinks DOUBLE. Her plagues come in one day:

DEATH

MOURNING

FAMINE

Those who remain in Babylon receive these three plagues, which is why they are told to COME OUT so that you do not receive of her plagues. This is why the wine and the fire are combined in Revelation 14. Wine in moderation doses is pleasure. But if you DOUBLE it, not so much. You end up stumbling and exposing nakedness. These are the natural results of sin and darkness. This is why for those in the LOF, the Spirit and the Bride say COME, drink the water of life freely.

What she did to others God will do to her, except he will make sure it is DOUBLED, and he will reward her the same way she rewarded you. Here is a really good example of that kind of judging:

1 Thess 2
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The reason that the brightness of his coming will destroy them is clear to me.  Even if you say that the Lake of Fire is the saints, look what it does, look how it is used: And for those who practiced DECEPTION, they shall receive what? A STRONG DELUSION...and be judged who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The fire they are judged by is  going to shut them out for a time:

1 Thess
6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of aionios destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

The judgment of flaming fire from God is explained in the same passage: "These will pay the penalty of an aionios destruction, away from the presence of the Lord." DARKNESS is the judgment. What happens when you are in darkness? What are your actions?

The LOF is about exposure, and humbling. For that, DRINK DOUBLE the same you have meted out. But the reason God metes out strong delusion for exposing the deceivers is explained by him already:

Habbukkuk 2
15"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies 16 You will be filled with shame instead of glory. Now it is your turn! Drink and let your nakedness be exposed The cup from the Lord's right hand is coming around to you, and disgrace will cover your glory.

  we agree  :i agree:  on the destruction of Babylon as being     a fire[to destroy wickedness ]as you say wickedness  is a fire of its own self   , taking away everything  , her power  her covering , her ease ,   for me Babylon  a spirit that works on a person  and in a person  , I can only speak from experiences    also Seth ,  I think again we are speaking about two  different things     as the LIGHT AND FIRE  OF GODS  Jealousy    will destroy   all wickedness [  a fire of its own doings]  to  cleanse and  make  new  ,  the old shall be no more , its end  will come   by the Bigger Fire and Glory of Gods own  will

     the Study of Babylon     and what fire  she is burned with comes from those  beastly natures  of    men  turning on her as God has put it in their hearts to do so 16"And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17"For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18"The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.

  in her Gods wrath is complete    Rev 15 1Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.

2And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

  the Fire of Gods Glory  ,as it is written , we will be LIKE HIM

 

[Seth]

hi rose, that post was more just a few thoughts that I had had in general, not a contradiction of what you had said in particular.

[rosered]

hi rose, that post was more just a few thoughts that I had had in general, not a contradiction of what you had said in particular.

Thank you Seth agreed ,  we   were posting at the same time    it seems  :HeartThrob:

I agree with alot of what you are saying about the judgment. And I do believe "your house left desolate" is internal, but I see it also as a whole thing too. I can be destroyed internally as well as externally. I think as prodigals, if we become prodigals, the experience is to believe that we are clothed but to be exposed as naked. Believe that we are rich, but our house is desolate.  :thumbsup:

:friendstu:

[rosered]

Praising that appearing of the Holy city..with the light of love coming/shining forth  into

the darkness,from it's gates...saying Come!

   The hounds of hell,hear thier bay

   over distant fields they lay.

   Listen..as they seek you out....with nostrils flared on their snout

  your scent theyv'e caught..they turn your way

   to seek you out where they lay

   the hounds of hell are baying,hear the call of the pack

   Gnashing teeth,growling throats..ears lying back

   the city gate,lies ahead..and beckons with a glow

   a warm embrace awaits you there,a feast a sumptous meal...

   the hounds of hell..are thwarted..and quickly turn on heel.

  Your poem sis ,

  :HeartThrob:  Yes leaving those things behind     and entering   His Holy City   where He  reigns  in Pure Life   Holy  and perfect / complete   

[Seth]

I personally disagree with a particular analysis of New Jerusalem as being within the borders of a larger Israel. Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world" and I think we see that displayed as John saw it.

Revelation 21
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God

We see here that John was carried to a high mountaintop to see the city, which is descending out of heaven. John does not see an earthly nation with earthly borders surrounding the city. He simply sees the city itself. The city uses the name Jerusalem as a NEW city, not as like the one on earth. That city is the bride, the people, the body of Christ. Just as Israel is God's first born son, that city IS the Israel of God. It's a city-state. While I believe that parts of the temple, and the land itself can be seen as representing the rest of the world, I don't think that such symbolism is being used here.

New Jerusalem IS "a peculiar people, a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation" unto itself.

Likewise, just as in Revelation earthly Israel itself is compared to Egypt and Sodom (where our Lord was crucified), because Christ uses Gehenna as a metaphor, does not mean he is intending to say that those in the LOF are themselves part of Israel of God. Separate elements can be used to represent concepts individually. Using the "Egypt and Sodom" metaphor, as Jesus Christ was was being conspired against and crucified, he himself was the lone Israel surrounded by Egypt and Sodom and the Gehenna that is within their borders. For if they were the seed of Abraham, the works of Abraham they would do.

The only seed of Abraham at that moment was Jesus Christ, and all else was Egypt. I don't believe there is any Israel outside of Christ, and I don't see being "in Christ" as anything different from being in covenantal relationship by faith and unity of the Holy Spirit. I understand the God's perspective VS man perspective ideas about everyone being in God now, but I don't think that kind of teaching is being employed in Revelation 14, 21, or 22.

I see a holy city where I don't see described in Revelation any part of the city being caught on fire. While the image of fire is used to represent God and his people and Jerusalem in other parts of scripture, here where the LOF is described, fire is decisively and glaringly absent with respect to the materials of construction described by John in Revelation, with good reason I believe. I think it is because there is another use of the image of "fire" in the Bible, in Isaiah 9, which is being employed.

The use of PRECIOUS gems and materials in connection to New Jerusalem harkens back to 1 Corinthians 3 to me, about how builders use different kinds of materials, some flammable, and others not. "The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone." Gems are not flammable, but hay, wood and stubble are flammable. So when the fire comes in the day of the Lord to reveal the kind of works, the house of Jerusalem stands. Outside? Not so much.

The tree of life is not caught on fire, nor the streets, nor the rivers of running water, nor the pearl gate, nor the inhabitants, or the temple, because there is no temple, and there is no sun because God is their light. Outside, everything is totally ablaze. The only fire John sees in Revelation 21 is outside the gate, and I don't like to add symbolism from other visions INTO other visions (ie combining visions) because I believe it confuses the issue being revealed. I believe the significance of lacking fire in the image symbol of New Jersualem is because "nothing unclean may enter" and so if "wickedness is like a fire," you naturally won't see that fire in New Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is resistant to that fire.

If the fire shall reveal the works, I believe it will reveal that New Jerusalem is resistant to suffering loss with bad building materials, but that outside the gate, the works are being being revealed as poor and the builders are suffering loss and their fire, that God has given them, is burning them up until they fall, yet the builders will be saved. For that purpose, I believe God gives the wine of his wrath to expose the nakedness and such an operation is apparent to me in the LOF, as is "strong delusion" that they should believe a lie and be judged.

[gregoryfl]

I understand your concern of mixing visions, especially if they are not related thematically in some way. However, I do believe that it is vitally important to study to see those connections when they appear, for they shed a more completed picture of the whole.

As an example, The vision of the New Jerusalem shows a river of WATER flowing out from it, both in Revelation and in Ezekiel. The vision in Daniel however, shows a river of FIRE flowing from the same throne. These are not mutually exclusive visions, as if water flows sometimes, and then fire the other. The water and the fire are providing a more completed picture, that the water and fire flowing from the throne are one and the same. They are simply describing different aspects and effects that we can understand as humans.

To help us make that connection thematically, we can also look at John's account in chapter 20, which speaks of the scrolls being unrolled, and judgment commencing. There is a lake of fire that those not in the book of life are cast into. This lake has a source though, and Daniel's account provides that piece of the puzzle, for in chapter 7 verse 10 he refers to the same books being opened and judgment commencing, and a little horn being burned in fire (vs 11). The source of that fire is seen in verses 9 and 10, as a stream or river of fire coming from the throne. Although not explicitly stated in John's account, the lake of fire is not without its source, there is fire in the New Jerusalem flowing from the under the throne of God eastward into the lake of fire, depicting in the promised land as the Dead Sea, which I understand to be a picture of the bronze molten sea in the tabernacle/temple construct.

Ronen

[Seth]

As an example, The vision of the New Jerusalem shows a river of WATER flowing out from it, both in Revelation and in Ezekiel. The vision in Daniel however, shows a river of FIRE flowing from the same throne. These are not mutually exclusive visions, as if water flows sometimes, and then fire the other.

What happening is that fire is being used in ONE part scripture to symbolize something, but in another. In other words, in Isaiah 9, the reason God is not described as fire is because WICKEDNESS is a fire. So when the image of fire is being used THERE, God is decidedly not being used to represent fire.

In the case of Revelation 14, 21, and 22, I believe the fire aspect is the one that tries the works to see what nature they are. This is connected to the WINE OF GOD's WRATH. Because New Jerusalem is not appointed to God's wrath, fire is not used to describe their building materials being engulfed by his wrath. They are not on fire, because the building materials are made of fine materials. And God himself is represented as a tree of life, and rivers are made with water, here in this particular phrase. ADDING the image of fire where John does not see it, in my opinion, is missing the point of why New Jerusalem is not caught on fire and those outside the gates (building with stubble and hay) are indeed caught on fire.

In other words, while Daniel uses fire, and John does not, means that they are speaking of different aspects of Jerusalem, not the same aspects.

To help us make that connection thematically, we can also look at John's account in chapter 20, which speaks of the scrolls being unrolled, and judgment commencing. There is a lake of fire that those not in the book of life are cast into. This lake has a source though, and Daniel's account provides that piece of the puzzle, for in chapter 7 verse 10 he refers to the same books being opened and judgment commencing, and a little horn being burned in fire (vs 11). The source of that fire is seen in verses 9 and 10, as a stream or river of fire coming from the throne. Although not explicitly stated in John's account, the lake of fire is not without its source, there is fire in the New Jerusalem flowing from the under the throne of God eastward into the lake of fire, depicting in the promised land as the Dead Sea, which I understand to be a picture of the bronze molten sea in the tabernacle/temple construct.

I have always said that the fire COMES from God, just like the WINE of his wrath comes from him. But the wine is not something God himself drinks nor does he force the inhabitants of New Jerusalem to drink it, and that is why there is no depiction of fire in John's vision, because John is making that point, I believe. The fact that it comes from God does not mean it is upon his people.

[Seth]

I think another reason God changes the rivers from fire to water is because the Spirit and the Bride say come and drink the water of life, whereas they are drinking the wine of wrath. It becomes absurd to say that they are inviting the people into the city to drink more fire. So, while Daniel has a point with fire. John has a point with water. And I think it becomes confusing when we say that John's rivers are fire, when John says they are water. I think the vision images should stand as as they, without swapping them between visions, so that the internal logic of the vision can be sustained.

[gregoryfl]

Exactly. That is what I am trying to share. I believe we are using different ways to describe it, but I see us as, in the bigger picture, seeing similarly. Similar to the Spirit of God being symbolized by oil, as well as by fire, different symbols of the same to describe different functions and experiences.

[Seth]

Yes, different functions and experiences, and if one of those functions and experiences is to send fire, if that fire is the same as "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven" (like as Sodom and Gomorrah) I believe that fire is manifested as wickedness itself, not God himself.

A good way to understand that is through this example:

1 Kings 22
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

I see that as judgment fire from God. I see that as "strong delusion" and the wine of God's wrath, without actually BEING God himself. That is what I believe the Adversary's place in the Day of the Lord will be.

[eaglesway]

I believe that God judges the wicked both ways, by the fruit of their wickedness, and also fire, that fire being the light that brings every secret thing to the surface - light consuming darkness. Light is fire to darkness.

For instance, altho God creates chaos, He is not chaos. God has reserved a manifestation of fire that purges the righteous, and a manifestation of fire that corrects the wicked- such as what Jesus called aionian pur, or aionian kolassis.

It is also writtenin the prophets somewhere- " I will be a wall of fire around Jerusalem." This fire does both. Only the righteous may pass through it, being purged on the way "in". The wicked are prevented entrance by that very same fire, and consumed by it should they seek to force their way into it.

There are many fires. The anti-christ calls down fire, but it is certainly not the fire of God. In the law, an adulterer or adulteress was judged for "causing her children to pass through the fire." This was not the fire of God. It was a wicked fire perpetrated upon the innocent, as was the fire in which the backslidden Israelites caused their children to be sacrificed to Moloch.

The fire in which the brothers of Daniel were sacrificed by Nebuchadnezzar was meant for evil, but only burned their bonds, because "one like unto the son of man" was with them in the fire, generated by man for evil purposes.

The need to categorize/analyze evrything around particular words is, in my view,  putting God into a box within which He cannot be contained.

At the bottom line we all agree that God is in control of everything, from the purging of the righteous to the judgment of the wicked to the reconciliation of all.

Our opinions about His methods may differ, but in the end, the fire of God will have consumed all darkness and He will be all in all- so all will be rejoicing in the fire of His countenance :o)

[Seth]

I.agree with much of what you say, but that anti Christ fire I.don't separate as being sourced from.God. I think it makes Christians uncomfortable to.see.God using evil.

About the God.in a box thing, I wasn't saying not consider other parts of scripture, but the what John saw, he wrote and I am sure God has a good reason for that and I don't think we should be so quick to take one image and swap for another as though John saw something he did t see.

[eaglesway]

I.agree with much of what you say, but that anti Christ fire I.don't separate as being sourced from.God. I think it makes Christians uncomfortable to.see.God using evil.

About the God.in a box thing, I wasn't saying not consider other parts of scripture, but the what John saw, he wrote and I am sure God has a good reason for that and I don't think we should be so quick to take one image and swap for another as though John saw something he did t see.

I agree. I dont think the fire from the anti-christ is coming from God either. God has also set some things that may be accessed for good or evil- such as natural fire, iron and sulfur, natural things that hav parralels in the spiritual realm(imo)

Also, was responding to the thread in general- not just your post :o)

[Seth]

I realized I wrote that down wrong. I do believe the anti Christ fire can be from God. I think Christians can be uncomfortable with that idea. The lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets is from God but is not God himself. Certainly fire CAN represent light, but in Revelation that light which is God is said to be in New Jerusalem, which is why there is no night there, no darkness, no death.

One of the reasons I talk about not swapping the images, is because I believe there is a reference to 1 Cor 3.

1 Cor 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

That tells me that not everyone's work shall be burned. That's probably why it also says that the saints shall not be touched of the second death. So I see a strong correlation to the fact that there is no fire imagery associated with New Jerusalem. That city is built with good work, gems sapphire gold, glass pearl. Nonflammable material. I think that point gets diluted when we say that the saints ARE the lake of fire because it confuses the issue as to why the city gates and foundation are made not from fire, but, again, gems, pearl etc.

As to what the fire does, I think it destroys, and in so doing exposes the works. So I see the wine leading to the fire. The city cannot be touched of that wine and that fire because their works withstand fire, they cannot be touched by the death that is the Lake of Fire, because they are not works which are based on the wine of Gods wrath. So when I see that God sends lying spirits to make sure the false prophets lie, I see the images at work. The false prophets say false things to make the the people build with bad material and that tongue which is a fire sets it all ablaze as with Gehenna.

The reason I believe Jesus refers to Gehenna is because it is a throwback to idolatry and the destruction It naturally brings. That is why I believe also James refers to Gehenna in that manner.

[rosered]

Yes, different functions and experiences, and if one of those functions and experiences is to send fire, if that fire is the same as "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven" (like as Sodom and Gomorrah) I believe that fire is manifested as wickedness itself, not God himself.

A good way to understand that is through this example:

1 Kings 22
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

I see that as judgment fire from God. I see that as "strong delusion" and the wine of God's wrath, without actually BEING God himself. That is what I believe the Adversary's place in the Day of the Lord will be.

  Yes Ronen       we are saying that    but   , Some of us believe in the LIVING  GOD being'' all in all '' already  , in the sense of this ,   a very simple   and clear 
But wide view   of  ''Could   satan be given any power at all with out God ?

  Could  wickedness continue  without God ?

  Could   anything exist without Gods fire of consuming ?   

I  believe  wholeheartedly     that trying to separate the fires      is not   giving God His full Glory      , in the  simple   explanation     of this
    can anything     have  power  , Authority    without GOD  knowing ? 

I agree its HIS JUDGMENT   fully
  who can stand   against God ?


Isaiah 14 

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The LORD of Hosts Himself has planned it; therefore, who can stand in its way? It is His hand that is outstretched, so who can turn it back?

International Standard Version
For the LORD of the Heavenly Armies has planned, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?"

NET Bible
Indeed, the LORD who commands armies has a plan, and who can possibly frustrate it? His hand is ready to strike, and who can possibly stop it?

I do believe its examples of futility  /pointless in trying, as examples prove  this as a truth .
no power or authority     at all over God Almighty

Its just a larger view   of seeing Gods  authority     that nothing is able to    move or  be without HIM

[Seth]

Hi Rose, I think you meant to address me  :laughing7:

I Do agree with much of what you say there. And it seems the that we see things similarly concerning the judgment. When I say that I don't believe that God is the fire itself in the case of these revelation chapters, I am not saying that he did not send the fire, and that he is not in control of it.

What I am saying is that when God sends a lying spirit to the mouth of the prophets, he is not that spirit itself. He is not a lying spirit, even though he sends strong delusion.

Maybe it's just a nuanced way of looking at it, But, I just see a very strong connection to Isaiah 9 fire in Revelation 14 being an agent of destruction which cannot touch the city of God. Since wickedness is a fire, you might imagine my hesitance to say that God IS that fire, though I believe he definitely sends it and uses it.

I remember how the man in Corinthians was told to be sent out of the church to "Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may live in the day of The Lord" I think Satan has a role to play in the LOF, but obviously though God may use Satan, he is not actually Satan himself.

[rosered]

Hi Rose, I think you meant to address me  :laughing7:

I Do agree with much of what you say there. And it seems the that we see things similarly concerning the judgment. When I say that I don't believe that God is the fire itself in the case of these revelation chapters, I am not saying that he did not send the fire, and that he is not in control of it.

What I am saying is that when God sends a lying spirit to the mouth of the prophets, he is not that spirit itself. He is not a lying spirit, even though he sends strong delusion.

Maybe it's just a nuanced way of looking at it, But, I just see a very strong connection to Isaiah 9 fire in Revelation 14 being an agent of destruction which cannot touch the city of God.

   Thanks Seth , now what do you not agree with ?  :laughing7:

  Love to be more  clear  lol

Its something I have struggled with for many , many years , nothing is worse than being misunderstood    , the UR  message
  is clearly misunderstood  and have prayed  for clarity 

I know the lying spirit   God sends    is for the plan  of God to prove every man a liar and God be true .
  Every WORD of God is true
  its just mans understanding  of  this truth  is     confusing
and have asked the Lord of hosts for  help in clarity of   making  hard things easy to    see and hear    plainly

All in Gods plan   just as Peter   was   going to deny Jesus      3 times        and   Jesus warns him he would   yet Peter  said LORD I WILL GO WITH YOU UNTO DEATH         but  warmed himself  fire   kindled    by  rejecting Jesus   with others     , this fire represents       a fire of their own destruction  , destroying the pride in mankind and failure to save themselves    , as a judgment  to me ..  just as you say as well

  we are not on different   terms here  we believe in the fire of destruction  as Gods judgment against evil doing / slander  , lies  , pride , falsehood etc ..   so many   to numerous to mention     , I just believe   that Gods consuming Fire is all the Fire   of both  His judgments in Love as well as destroying  everything that   opposes Him     as to   say ALL   SOURCES   come by His Authority    They can only come from God who is all      and creator of ALL  , this may be where we disagree       :dontknow:  I have always seen Him as WAY BIG   and  unfathomable     for many years now  , this is how a lot of   mine own    personal fears     come and was reconciled   with

Just the way its worded  we KNOW the fire has meaning or it would not be included  as an example  :thumbsup:

53They led Jesus away to the high priest; and all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes gathered together. 54Peter had followed Him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting with the officers and warming himself at the fire. 55Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, and they were not finding any.
 
Mark 14:66
While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by.

Mark 14:67
When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him. "You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus," she said.

I always think of Jesus saying I wish  you were   hot or cold    , being lukewarm   / being halfhearted or indifferent     makes them as cast offs /useless   to God

[Seth]

I like the connection you make there about warming yourself by the fire. I like the irony too, that lukewarmness is sort of like a blazing fire unto itself. It actually immediately reminded me of a scripture:

Hosea 7:1-7
Their (Israel's) sins engulf them; they are always before me. "They delight the king with their wickedness, the princes with their lies. They are all adulterers, burning like an oven whose fire the baker need not stir from the kneading of the dough till it rises. On the day of the festival of our king, the princes become inflamed with wine, and he joins hands with the mockers.

In asmuch as Israel's sins engulf them, it's also a warming to them as with bread. They become food for the devouring of eachother, the wrong kind of bread.

They can only come from God who is all      and creator of ALL  , this may be where we disagree       :dontknow:  I have always seen Him as WAY BIG   and  unfathomable     for many years now  , this is how a lot of   mine own    personal fears     come and was reconciled   with

Just the way its worded  we KNOW the fire has meaning or it would not be included  as an example  :thumbsup:

I think the reason my wording is different is because I used to believe and have heard from UR thought, that the Lake of Fire is a baptism of the Spirit, whereas I think it's made clear that judgment is being compared to fire (death), and the Spirit is being made compared to water (life) for the purposes of the point being made by the vision.

Baptism of the Spirit tends to cause joy, life and freedom. Whereas everything said about the Day of the Lord judgment refers to it as destruction which will cause loss and suffering, torment, death and darkness.

I don't much have a problem with the way you mean it though, as I don't think that is what you are saying. I see the judgment, rather than a baptism of the Spirit to be more like this:

Lamentations 1:13-15
"From on high, he (God) sent FIRE, sent it down into my bones. He spread a net for my feet and turned me back. He made me desolate, faint all the day long. "MY SINS have been bound into a yoke; by his hands they were woven together. They (the sins) have been hung on my neck, and the Lord has sapped my strength. He has given me into the hands of those I cannot withstand. "The Lord has rejected all the warriors in my midst; he has summoned an army against me to crush my young men. In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah.

Revelation 14 also mentions that winepress outside the city, which I think is all connected together with being turned over to Babylon to drink her wine.

Habakkuk 1:12
O Lord, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to CORRECT us, to punish us for our many sins.

Jeremiah 2:19
Your own wickedness will correct you, And your apostasies will reprove you;

So if God sends "your own wickedness" to correct people, that is where I make the distinction between God sending the fire and BEING the fire. But, nevertheless, I definitely agree with you are meaning it, because I don't think it is the same thing as a baptism of the Spirit. If that is what the LOF, Jesus would have told people to RUN to Gehenna and fully immerse themselves. But he said to keep out of it.

[rosered]

 

  Thanks again for the    descriptiveness of your posts !
  God knows I am trying to be clear ..lol
   I find it amazing now looking at the WORD just how much is about FIRE!

I think the reason my wording is different is because I used to believe and have heard from UR thought, that the Lake of Fire is a baptism of the Spirit, whereas I think it's made clear that judgment is being compared to fire (death), and the Spirit is being made compared to water (life) for the purposes of the point being made by the vision.

I see what you mean   Seth   
  and  I always thought this too   LIFE AND WATER       comes after the fire and death  , Life and death are yours    22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. 




but I have to  say that after looking   at   Holy Spirit and Fire    ,  I believe in its duality     of it being   death and life   at the same time  in separating
  in Acts 2  we see this with      the  cloven tongues that sat   on  each one of them  and the fire   there is a baptism of  death and baptism of Life   as well  after death         

  cloven is a weird word and always wondered about it till I saw   what it was meaning and this refresher course     we have been  given  of the Lord to   go though once again  in more depth 

diamerizō
Pronunciation
dē-ä-me-rē'-zō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From διά (G1223) and μερίζω (G3307)

to cleave asunder, cut in pieces

to be divided into opposing parts, to be at variance, in dissension

to distribute

   cloven tongues

2And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind,

and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.


3And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance

I  am a firm believer     that the presence of God when you  look at it throughout  scriptures

  when you see the Fire      as in Moses and the burning bush and it was not consumed 

  and with the children of Israel was a  pillar of  cloud  by day and  pillar of Fire by night     
  and even     Jacob  a   worm  its all about GODS  JUST JUDGMENT & MERCY     to kill and make alive    and after the fire the waters come 
  both are of God and both accomplish His purpose     I do see Jesus as a fire        and those of His making up the fire 
  but also   Jesus is so much more than just that aspect of Him !

  13"For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand,
            Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.'

      14"Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel;
            I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.

      15"Behold, I have made you a new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges;
            You will thresh the mountains and pulverize them,
            And will make the hills like chaff.

      16"You will winnow them, and the wind will carry them away,
            And the storm will scatter them;
            But you will rejoice in the LORD,
            You will glory in the Holy One of Israel.

      17"The afflicted and needy are seeking water, but there is none,
            And their tongue is parched with thirst;
            I, the LORD, will answer them Myself,
            As the God of Israel I will not forsake them.

      18"I will open rivers on the bare heights
            And springs in the midst of the valleys;
            I will make the wilderness a pool of water
            And the dry land fountains of water.

      19"I will put the cedar in the wilderness,
            The acacia and the myrtle and the olive tree;
            I will place the juniper in the desert
            Together with the box tree and the cypress,

      20That they may see and recognize,
            And consider and gain insight as well,
            That the hand of the LORD has done this,
            And the Holy One of Israel has created it.

      21"Present your case," the LORD says.
            "Bring forward your strong arguments,"
            The King of Jacob says.

I do understand what your  saying  and can  really be thankful for that    you  going into such    ability to prove it  though scriptures and      understanding   

   for me it is the dividing   fire   that Jesus said he would send on the earth    after His baptism   in Luke  49    and its prophecy   

    the testimony of Jesus Christ is the SAME SPIRIT of prophecy       and we saw how that worked     with that  group of people        , they were all able to understand one another     by the HOLY SPIRIT   and Fire

      Its so much more than expected when digging deeply into Gods Word as Truth
I  can now see more clearly the meaning of 
  where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched            to me its a constant  consuming    Fire of God and      relief of the waters of  Life that flow freely

   The fire of God 'He that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God' -- 1 JOHN iv.16.  being on fire for God an old saying from the   baptist  circles  lol

Its   zeal  and passion   suffering for      describing   this fire , Paul said I die daily     ,  Jesus told   him I will show the  great  things you will suffer for my names sake    the   regenerating   grace       of His Word  found in each  one called

[Seth]

I think you and I are talking about different fires. I'm talking about the fire that Jesus and James told us to avoid.  :HeartThrob:

My main concern is that when we don't distinguish, people get a wrong impression about what it means for God to send a judgment fire. If Gehenna fire is the same as God, then we should RUN TOWARD IT, rather than steer clear of it.

Jesus says DO NOT let your body be in Gehenna. James is warning us AGAINST the blazing furnace. If that fire and the spirit are no different, then by all means, we SHOULD want out bodies to be in that spiritual condition.

We both pretty much agree, but I am just giving my concerns about why ETers might be confused by the UR message in general given what they know about the warnings concerning Gehenna. I think they should be told that God is in control of his judgements, but also have a healthy concern about the gravity of those judgments. .

[Seth]

In my old church I was taught that receiving the Spirit baptism was the same as his fire. So when I first heard about UR, I was being told that this was the same as Gehenna fire. That was very confusing to me because it really doesn't make sense. A baptism of the spirit is not death in darkness, but life and light. I am just concerned about sorting out the confusion that can occur. We are not warned against having a baptism of the spirit in the Bible, but we are warned against the fire of Gehenna by The Lord himself.  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

In my old church I was taught that receiving the Spirit baptism was the same as his fire. So when I first heard about UR, I was being told that this was the same as Gehenna fire. That was very confusing to me because it really doesn't make sense. A baptism of the spirit is not death in darkness, but life and light. I am just concerned about sorting out the confusion that can occur. We are not warned against having a baptism of the spirit in the Bible, but we are warned against the fire of Gehenna by The Lord himself.  :HeartThrob:

I think you and I are talking about different fires. I'm talking about the fire that Jesus and James told us to avoid.  :HeartThrob:

My main concern is that when we don't distinguish, people get a wrong impression about what it means for God to send a judgment fire. If Gehenna fire is the same as God, then we should RUN TOWARD IT, rather than steer clear of it.

Jesus says DO NOT let your body be in Gehenna. James is warning us AGAINST the blazing furnace. If that fire and the spirit are no different, then by all means, we SHOULD want out bodies to be in that spiritual condition.

We both pretty much agree, but I am just giving my concerns about why ETers might be confused by the UR message in general given what they know about the warnings concerning Gehenna. I think they should be told that God is in control of his judgements, but also have a healthy concern about the gravity of those judgments. .

  Yes    Seth the  cup of suffering  in the Lords hand

   He tasted death for every man ,  so  not every man would have to  taste death     

Matthew 26:39

And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
Luke 22:42

saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.

   I know what you are saying     here  is true  :thumbsup:

[gregoryfl]

In my old church I was taught that receiving the Spirit baptism was the same as his fire. So when I first heard about UR, I was being told that this was the same as Gehenna fire. That was very confusing to me because it really doesn't make sense. A baptism of the spirit is not death in darkness, but life and light. I am just concerned about sorting out the confusion that can occur. We are not warned against having a baptism of the spirit in the Bible, but we are warned against the fire of Gehenna by The Lord himself.  :HeartThrob:

I have been in much the same experience, as well as with other explanations, and so sorting it all out has been very difficult for me, and I am continuing to sort it out. As I currently understand it, if I take the topography of the promised land into consideration with what I read in scripture, I see the Lake of Fire as the Dead Sea, not Gehenna. Gehenna has it's own lessons to teach. Jeshua made it very clear, as I believe you said, that Gehenna is to be avoided at all costs by anyone.

[lastpost]

confession time.....when I hear people saying' but we are the elect" as if they are somehow better then other men..I WANT TO PUKE!!  it's the free gift..the seed given unto us

The man grasps the seed and places it in the soil.

Pity the man who thinks he is better than others if a shoot appears.

Without the elements or even the life in the soil which is ignorant of its Creator, the man can achieve nothing and he will be ashamed.

[eaglesway]

Being the elect, is in itself(if properly understood) a confession that we are anything we are- only by the grace of God.

Elect to what?

To lay down or lives one for another, and to share in the suffering and rejection of Christ in the pursuit of the reconciliation of all unto Him.