In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)

[marie glen]

..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..

Some thoughts have been taking shape for some time in my mind, like a bubble, but finally the idea popped :laughing7:

I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice. Once we see the 'face' of God - the pure and 100% holy Light of Life, perhaps it is we ourselves who ultimately would be satisfied with nothing less than our own sacrifice, after all, the 'soul' that sinneth it shall die, the wages/result of sin is death..

We being that sacrifice..

But surprise!!  :banana: :dsunny:  God built into creation itself our salvation, our rescue. And says, "It is done". "Great is Thy faithfulness.."

[ed]

I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice.

:thumbsup:

Mankind dies, and God goes through the same thing through His Son Jesus Christ.  God took responsibility for the sin of mankind from the day he put the tree and the serpent in the garden.

[jabcat]

..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..

I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice.

Let's keep thinkin' about that :)

"According to the book of Exodus, Moses came down from Mount Sinai not only with the Ten Commandments, but with a long list of sacrifices that were required for righteousness before God.

Examples abound. The first sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is in Genesis 4 when Abel offered portions of a lamb to God as a sacrificial act. In Exodus 12, we read of the first commanded animal sacrifice in the scriptures. There we find Israel commanded to sacrifice a yearling lamb and to sprinkle blood on the doorframes to ward off the angel of death that was to visit Egypt. Most of the ink in Leviticus was used in prescribing the number and types of sacrifices required by God. Even in Jesus' life we read that there were appropriate sacrifices made for him after his birth: "They offered a sacrifice according to what is stated in the law of the Lord, 'a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons'" (Luke 2.24). And as an adult, it is clear that he participated in the Passover festival, which included sacrificing a lamb at the Temple (Luke 22)."  - Home Church Network Assoc.

[jabcat]

..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..

We being that sacrifice..

But surprise!!  :banana: :dsunny:  God built into creation itself our salvation, our rescue. And says, "It is done". "Great is Thy faithfulness.."

I personally have to be careful what I "think", and remember to try and trust what He says - whether I understand it or not (I often don't).  That said, I don't believe the scripture says we're THE sacrifice, Jesus Is.  And that's what was built into creation for our rescue - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".  Blessings.

[Seth]

Hi Marie Glen,
I am not quite sure, but if I understand it but here is how I see it using some of the phrasing you used.

The reason God built sacrifice into the Law is because he knew that man would be in a sinful state, and therefore we require a sacrifice of ourselves to be rid of that sinful state. Therefore, God created the Law to require blood, and Jesus provided that blood through his own body to be resurrected and by that life, sacrifices his own followers unto newness of life.

I do agree with James, God did require sacrifices, but that is because we required sacrifice in a spiritual way of ourselves to be free of death. Jesus brings that in the Spirit.

[Seth]

Jesus did say, take up your cross and follow me. Where are we going with those crosses?

[jabcat]

To die to self - but I don't believe that's THE sacrifice.  I believe that's obedience...to the One who is The sacrifice.  Not to redeem ourselves - He and His sacrifice already did. 

[Seth]

I see the sacrifice as beyond a historic moment in time, but that we become one with "the" sacrifice. In the physical realm Jesus was the only sacrifice to do away with the old covenant, but in the new, we become unified with that sacrifice through baptism and God requires us to be sacrificed well, hence the commandments to carry the cross.  So, in the flesh Jesus had THE body, but in the Spirit his body is many membered expression of the sacrifice.

[sheila]

the old man of sin/adam in us is appointed to die.....underlaw without mercy.....but the

new man in Christ/regenerated bears his idenity with the Lamb who laid down his

life willingly in order to take itback up again...no man[of sin/prince of this wrld]takes it

  he lays it down willingly/obediently to his Father's will


  the old man Adam has his life forfeited by sin entering[taken from him]

   perfection comes from obedience through suffering for doing His will

    when you have been forgiven and given eternal life through your faith in Jesus and

received the Holy spirit.....death really has no claim on you as the new creature in

Christ.  Thus..if ye beleive ye shall not die..even if ye die ye shall live.  However if

the Father desire's..and in obedience to Him you lay it down...ye are partaking of

the likeness of His death.

   we can be be perfected by suffering[even unto death] for obedeince.  that is how

  Jesus was perfected.    Jesus told his disciples 'ye have not yet resisted sin unto

  the spilling of your  blood"   ye can not come know,but will come later.........their

martyr's death came later.

   my  :2c:

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

The Bible refers to both a physical and metaphysical death (Romans 6). Physical death and death in sin, the carnal mind. We once knew Christ after the flesh, but we know him after the flesh no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature.

[eaglesway]

His sacrifice is contagious.

Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross

Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

If we are becoming partakers in the divine nature and being transformed into the image of Christ, we are becoming living sacrifices, because His sacrifice lives in us daily as we walk in His love. IMO, This is what it means to grow in grace. The branch that abides in the vine bears the same fruit as the vine.

[Seth]

His sacrifice is contagious.

That is the most awesome way of saying it.  :dsunny:

[marie glen]

..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..

I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice.

Let's keep thinkin' about that :)

"According to the book of Exodus, Moses came down from Mount Sinai not only with the Ten Commandments, but with a long list of sacrifices that were required for righteousness before God.

Examples abound. The first sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is in Genesis 4 when Abel offered portions of a lamb to God as a sacrificial act. In Exodus 12, we read of the first commanded animal sacrifice in the scriptures. There we find Israel commanded to sacrifice a yearling lamb and to sprinkle blood on the doorframes to ward off the angel of death that was to visit Egypt. Most of the ink in Leviticus was used in prescribing the number and types of sacrifices required by God. Even in Jesus' life we read that there were appropriate sacrifices made for him after his birth: "They offered a sacrifice according to what is stated in the law of the Lord, 'a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons'" (Luke 2.24). And as an adult, it is clear that he participated in the Passover festival, which included sacrificing a lamb at the Temple (Luke 22)."  - Home Church Network Assoc.

I get what you're saying.. God cannot possibly let sin (imperfection) go.. one little taint changes the universe.. ..but that isn't what I was going to say! - He cannot 'let' sin.. that He cannot pardon a sin without a replacement.. without payment.. atonement..  (I had better wording but forgot it!) :Chinscratch: the wages, result of sin is death, an unchangeable law and fact..?
             :gsmile:

[jabcat]

I understand I think what you're getting at.  I believe some of these things are such "hard sayings" for our finite humanity, what we think is our "logical" mind can't understand or accept.  Thus, so many reject and "know better", or turn away from the truth and even the faith, "knowing better".  Which of course leads to shipwreck of faith and destruction - for self, and sometimes for others.

My view on such deep things is so surface, sometimes I just have to go back to what the scripture says and sort of leave it at that, with "I don't know why God chose to do it like that but He did" - so I need to trust Him.  That everything He does has a reason and is perfect ("in Him is no evil") - whether I can see it or understand it or not.  So the thing I think of here is, I wouldn't say he "couldn't forgive without", but that He "chose to do it with", i.e., the atonement.  Don't have the ready reference, but Jesus purchased us, paid the price.  By His stripes.  I believe He is the atonement.  Exactly why and what all God was thinking, I don't know.  I just believe it says He did and is. 

[marie glen]

  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Absolutely! It's aLL what ever the Word says! Isn't that great!?! We're not left afloat! :))

[marie glen]

Mankind dies, and God goes through the same thing through His Son Jesus Christ.  God took responsibility for the sin of mankind from the day he put the tree and the serpent in the garden.

     :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

[Seth]

So the thing I think of here is, I wouldn't say he "couldn't forgive without", but that He "chose to do it with", i.e., the atonement.

I agree. I think God structured his Law so that creating man new through the forgiveness of sin would require  a blood sacrifice, so that in Christ dying would show the love of the Father, and create a way to be joined to him by the Firstborn. I don't take that to mean the God is.subservient to his Law but that his Law is a reflection of himself.

Jesus Christ forgave sin in his ministry, but a death was required by the Law to create a new man under the resurrected Spirit, the New Covenant.

Everything is by God's choice.

[marie glen]

So the thing I think of here is, I wouldn't say he "couldn't forgive without", but that He "chose to do it with", i.e., the atonement.

I agree. I think God structured his Law so that creating man new through the forgiveness of sin would require  a blood sacrifice, so that in Christ dying would show the love of the Father, and create a way to be joined to him by the Firstborn. I don't take that to mean the God is.subservient to his Law but that his Law is a reflection of himself.

Jesus Christ forgave sin in his ministry, but a death was required by the Law to create a new man under the resurrected Spirit, the New Covenant.

Everything is by God's choice.

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I often find myself wanting to answer questions posed by staunch, challenging non-believers.. apologetics, I guess.. defense.. I've heard the accusation like God craved blood, or (gasp!) is bloodthirsty/cruel.. but it was the other so called 'gods' or ancient 'priests' of strange religions, who were like that.. but not in some non-believers view..

But which we know is not true of the heavenly Father, who "is love".. We can be assured, I believe, of two things, He is Perfect, and His motives are always love.. truth, yes, and purity/perfection/holiness/truth, but He IS love.. So requiring a sacrifice was/is an act of love, and as we know, absolutely not of any sort of cruelty, or anything - less than love..
                      :banana:

[gregoryfl]

 :thumbsup:

Just listened to the latest Jesus Trip which shares this very thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEE4D89D5173A151C&v=4WtxNzvHAFI

[marie glen]

:thumbsup:

Just listened to the latest Jesus Trip which shares this very thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEE4D89D5173A151C&v=4WtxNzvHAFI

I like his expressionism! And his message! Very interesting! I plan to listen to more of his videos.. This one, I thought, was very good! :)
 
"If you've seen Me" Jesus said, "you've seen the Father.."

[lastpost]

I believe that on the Cross, the full experience of Jesus was to include alienation from God the Father so that man could never be in the position to say that because Jesus was God, He had an advantage that man does not have.

However, Christ suffered more than any other human could or would ever have to suffer. On top of that, we have Jesus to turn to today; but because Jesus was perfect, He had to feel completely abandoned by God and man alike.

My opinion is that this helps man draw even closer to understanding who Christ was and the depths He would go to because of His love for humanity.

[gregoryfl]

I like his expressionism! And his message! Very interesting! I plan to listen to more of his videos.. This one, I thought, was very good! :)
 
"If you've seen Me" Jesus said, "you've seen the Father.."

Yes, I enjoy his messages as well. Just know though that although he believes that all have been reconciled to God and included in the love of God, he believes, like the Eastern Orthodox churches, that man can choose to reject him forever and never enjoy what he has been given. If I did not believe that eventually every single human being will awaken to faith in Him and believe, I would believe what you will hear him share of man's will to choose or reject for eternity what God has done for him in Yeshua, and that acceptance is the experience of heaven, and rejection is the experience of hell.

[eaglesway]

 :dsunny:

I believe that on the Cross, the full experience of Jesus was to include alienation from God the Father so that man could never be in the position to say that because Jesus was God, He had an advantage that man does not have.

However, Christ suffered more than any other human could or would ever have to suffer. On top of that, we have Jesus to turn to today; but because Jesus was perfect, He had to feel completely abandoned by God and man alike.

My opinion is that this helps man draw even closer to understanding who Christ was and the depths He would go to because of His love for humanity.

[onesimus]

..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..

I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice.

Let's keep thinkin' about that :)

"According to the book of Exodus, Moses came down from Mount Sinai not only with the Ten Commandments, but with a long list of sacrifices that were required for righteousness before God.

Examples abound. The first sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is in Genesis 4 when Abel offered portions of a lamb to God as a sacrificial act. In Exodus 12, we read of the first commanded animal sacrifice in the scriptures. There we find Israel commanded to sacrifice a yearling lamb and to sprinkle blood on the doorframes to ward off the angel of death that was to visit Egypt. Most of the ink in Leviticus was used in prescribing the number and types of sacrifices required by God. Even in Jesus' life we read that there were appropriate sacrifices made for him after his birth: "They offered a sacrifice according to what is stated in the law of the Lord, 'a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons'" (Luke 2.24). And as an adult, it is clear that he participated in the Passover festival, which included sacrificing a lamb at the Temple (Luke 22)."  - Home Church Network Assoc.

Animal sacrifice came earlier than Abel...It was God himself who performed it, when he took skins and clothed Adam and Eve as a covering for their nakedness..I often wonder what that was like for God...to have taken his own hand to one of his creatures and kill it...It is likely it was done in front of Adam, becoming associated for him with his shame and part of his Modus Operandi for the covering of his sin. This is probably why his son, Abel began to practice it, as, at this stage, there is no record of god commanding it...

Marie, You are right that it is we who required the sacrifice - as an offering for our guilt, and to satisfy our own corrupted conscience .. The system of sacrifice was a prime and profound example of the Lord, in mercy, meeting us where we were at. Man needed a way to feel ok about himself..

While God commanded it for man's sake - he never required it. 

Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice...

Psalm 51:16 You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one. You do not want a burnt offering...

Psalm 40:6 You take no delight in sacrifices or offerings. Now that you have made me listen, I finally understand--you don't require burnt offerings or sin offerings. (NLV)

Mathew 9:13 Go learn what this means, 'I require mercy and not a sacrifice',

Jesus was saying in the above verse that God wanted man to learn mercy (for himself) instead of sacrifice. This was always true - but man could never let himself off the hook..

Mathew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Jesus references the same verse again to teach the pharisees (yet another lesson), and as a further wonderful point, Jesus even goes as far as describing people as 'innocent'...

[rosered]

This  is a great discussion   wow  so many  wonderful   thoughts !!!
  It helps me    to see /understand better !   
I do  believe   His Spirit  of holiness is with us    :HeartThrob:
   It does make sense to me, in the sense of this  ,

once  as dead in sin  and the  judgment ,    then those are dead in Christ  , same  as shedding blood in   Hebrews 12  ,   the same taking up your cross and following Christ    , this example as laying your life down  of shedding your blood /life     [sacrifice ]  example   as     same Lamb of God  , many , many sheep to the slaughter     for the Gospels sake    that is going to be also   like Him  , obedience  and doing as He says and Does  and produce fruit  ,  new life  Just as Jesus was   dead ,   1 Corinthians     15 , it must Die to   be risen    again  with Christ in you the hope of glory   ,     these verses especially     , that makes Hebrews  12  make sense !!  35 But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?

36 Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die:

37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind;

38 but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.

Hebrews 12 in this context    shows the picture much better than this one  liner  of scripture
  But I can see this picture in my mind /heart    Wow   


 
the WORD OF GOD     is the SWORD    that  cuts the soul /life and Spirit   as separate  to  become the same  soul / life in Christ  , Christ in you ,    you will do the same works    as He did and   because He went to the Father    Heb 12 ;4
the same  sacrifice of the Lamb , what if Able since he is mentioned   as    Christ speaking better things than Abel     , is the first Lamb from the  foundation    laid  down his life by  sin  in his own brother Cain ?    Just as Jesus Christ died    for all    but come  in the fullness of time  /the OPEN  SHOWING /SEALS ARE OPENED OF THE BOOK OF LIFE , the   was , is and will be the Alpha and Omega    beinging and end  Rev 1 7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

  the twice dead     to me mean those whom     were dead in sin   and than judgement        whom   the life in Christ produced   briers and thorns  only to be burned 


    Hebrews  12   

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In struggling against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

International Standard Version
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

NET Bible
You have not yet resisted to the point of bloodshed in your struggle against sin.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For you have not yet come as far as to blood in the struggle against sin.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
You struggle against sin, but your struggles haven't killed you.

  oH MY   so much to process        , Glory to God !!!