When Jesus comes back!

[WhiteWings]

What follows in the openng of the seals is full of revelation contemporary in every generation since then, pictures of heavenly realities- for all who have ears to hear, and eyes opened to see, it has been unsealed.

So you think the 5 books written by Moses are (were?) sealed in such a way nobody is supposed to understand those books?

[eaglesway]

Moses books were never sealed.

The way I see it, Revelations is largely the contents of the unsealed scroll, which may hav been Daniels sealed scroll- 7 seals, seven sections, or portions of revelation. If you think about it, the much of the  revelation of John is about scrolls being unsealed. 7 letters to 7 churches, the seven seals of the sealed scroll opened by the Lion of the tribe of Judah(Jesus the Lamb), the little book in the giant messengers hand(rev 10 i think).

[eaglesway]

Also to clarify, I am not saying there is no revelation that has yet to be fulfilled in terms of historic prophesy- I am just saying that the primary function of the messages and metaphors and word pictures of John's apocalypse have been to give understanding to the ecclesia concerning their function and purpose and nature- in each generation in which they have lived.

[ed]

I tend to agree with ew.

It is amazing how doctrine taints the whole message of Christ.

I'm guessing pre-trib, post-trib all comes from the book of Revelation.  Correct me if I am wrong.

I was reading an article on free will from another site and and noticed the flavor the Christ's return for a millennium reign was stated as fact.

After reading this thread and studying for years I still have not come to a solid conclusion on the return of Christ.

I am quite happy with a simple he has already come and is alive and well in us.

In other words I'm not expecting an apocalyptic return.

I think that maybe Paul expected one.  I disagree with Paul.  Lord have mercy!

.

[ed]

I read all the time in different places of religious speak[and have for years and found myself awaiting] that of Jesus coming back and His second coming. I was reading years ago the writings of J. Preston Eby, who I have found very important in my walk. Well, Bro. Eby established for me a very outstanding point which I have been given to hold and have found a "rock" in my foundation.
Joh_14:16  and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you--to the age;
Joh_14:26  and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.
Joh_15:26  `And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me;
Joh_16:7  `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;

And thus informing me as well as telling me that Jesus Christ came again(a second time) and as Revelation confirms Rev 1:8  `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming--the Almighty.'
I, await Jesus Christ, I do not await His "second" coming.  Jesus Christ is always COMING...ALWAYS. Yet religion, theology,denominations all proclaim a "second" coming. I know I must stand alone with my faith...but happy at His many comings. :dsunny:

I'm about the same, including the writings of JP Eby.

I don't discount an end this world.  I just don't think that it will be anything like Christian theology has propounded.  We are confused.  "nobodies right if everybodies wrong".  At times it is laughable at times and at other times makes me want to cry.

It is ripe for heretic snatchings.   It is also ripe for a great awakening.  Who will be able to tell the difference?  His sheep continue to hear His voice.

.

[micah7:9]

He came, He is coming[all the time], and He will come. It just seems  strange to me how believers desire His appearance.
Theology and all its religious denominations and sects have their platform that intrigues the congregations that gather on a particular day, what they[in charge of the oracle] offer what keeps their gatherings imagination and attention sharp.
Should the masses who profess Jesus Christ, I venture to say, who do not open their personal Bible unless instructed to a certain verse of scripture actually search that Bible for study, the leader of that group would be whelmed with biblical questions. 
Should a reverend, pastor, priest, preacher, etc. say thus, well like...something outside of the sunday pamphlets, the person would be brought up on charges.
Just who is The Comforter? Should the Comforter not be Jesus.....tell me? He is here now, today in those who believe, He is working in those who believe and that working is not a working teaching a second coming. HE IS HERE NOW just like HE IS RISEN.

[WhiteWings]

Moses books were never sealed.

They are the wedding contract with the 7 seals.

[eaglesway]

Moses books were never sealed.

They are the wedding contract with the 7 seals.

My opinion is that your opinion is incorrect :o)

[dajomaco]

He came, He is coming[all the time], and He will come. It just seems  strange to me how believers desire His appearance.
Theology and all its religious denominations and sects have their platform that intrigues the congregations that gather on a particular day, what they[in charge of the oracle] offer what keeps their gatherings imagination and attention sharp.
Should the masses who profess Jesus Christ, I venture to say, who do not open their personal Bible unless instructed to a certain verse of scripture actually search that Bible for study, the leader of that group would be whelmed with biblical questions. 
Should a reverend, pastor, priest, preacher, etc. say thus, well like...something outside of the sunday pamphlets, the person would be brought up on charges.
Just who is The Comforter? Should the Comforter not be Jesus.....tell me? He is here now, today in those who believe, He is working in those who believe and that working is not a working teaching a second coming. HE IS HERE NOW just like HE IS RISEN.

Here  Now Today  :iagree:

[Seth]

He came, He is coming[all the time], and He will come. It just seems  strange to me how believers desire His appearance.
Theology and all its religious denominations and sects have their platform that intrigues the congregations that gather on a particular day, what they[in charge of the oracle] offer what keeps their gatherings imagination and attention sharp.
Should the masses who profess Jesus Christ, I venture to say, who do not open their personal Bible unless instructed to a certain verse of scripture actually search that Bible for study, the leader of that group would be whelmed with biblical questions. 
Should a reverend, pastor, priest, preacher, etc. say thus, well like...something outside of the sunday pamphlets, the person would be brought up on charges.
Just who is The Comforter? Should the Comforter not be Jesus.....tell me? He is here now, today in those who believe, He is working in those who believe and that working is not a working teaching a second coming. HE IS HERE NOW just like HE IS RISEN.

I agree. It seems to me that many in the Orthodox world, including me at a past time focused so much on calling Christ down to them through worship, but he is already down here, in his temple: for ye are the temple of the living God.

However, there is something that Paul looked forward to:

Romans 8
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

This reminds me of the Hebrews 2 scripture: "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."

That is what we are waiting for, the hope. Though we do not see all things under him, we know it is true, so we wait "eagerly for our adoption as sons" something we do not see yet.

1 Thess 4:13-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Why "comfort eachother with these words?" I think it's because they were in such sorrow and suffering concerning the persecution of the church. They were dying off, enduring unimaginable hardship (Lord bless their hearts). It certainly was not a world that looked as if all things were already in subjugation under Christ. But we are assured that we will see that someday.

Paul was strengthening them with words that were very strong "shall descend from heaven with a shout" Strong wording, to help them have courage that the Lord has strength, and he will be manifested in a way that the world has not seen yet.

That is what I think people mean when they talk about a second coming. It's not to say he is not already here with us, but it's to say that he will come by way of a manifestation of his power that the world has not yet seen.

The world has really only seen him once, 2000 years ago. Not even the saints have seen him as he will be when he comes again, or at least when he manifests again unto the world who crucified him.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny:

[Tapioca]

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and at the last he will stand upon the earth.

26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God,
:dsunny:

[rosered]

I read all the time in different places of religious speak[and have for years and found myself awaiting] that of Jesus coming back and His second coming. I was reading years ago the writings of J. Preston Eby, who I have found very important in my walk. Well, Bro. Eby established for me a very outstanding point which I have been given to hold and have found a "rock" in my foundation.
Joh_14:16  and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you--to the age;
Joh_14:26  and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.
Joh_15:26  `And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me;
Joh_16:7  `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;

And thus informing me as well as telling me that Jesus Christ came again(a second time) and as Revelation confirms Rev 1:8  `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming--the Almighty.'
I, await Jesus Christ, I do not await His "second" coming.  Jesus Christ is always COMING...ALWAYS. Yet religion, theology,denominations all proclaim a "second" coming. I know I must stand alone with my faith...but happy at His many comings. :dsunny:

I'm about the same, including the writings of JP Eby.

I don't discount an end this world.  I just don't think that it will be anything like Christian theology has propounded.  We are confused.  "nobodies right if everybodies wrong".  At times it is laughable at times and at other times makes me want to cry.

It is ripe for heretic snatchings.   It is also ripe for a great awakening.  Who will be able to tell the difference?  His sheep continue to hear His voice.

.

Wow!
   AMEN !!   

  No man  of sin /  as one dead     can never know the coming of Christ
for its   those whom are awaiting the  coming of Light the Lords Day       in the SPIRIT       


The veil of our flesh is a  dark covering  and heavy   weight that besets us (of a problem or difficulty) trouble or threaten persistently.
  its the true enmity   /foe     against the Spirit


   Jesus told the  Jewish   nation   they  didnt know the time of their visitation   !

the LIGHT HAD COME  TO THEM NEAR  , but they were still under the   dark cloud / witness of stupor slumber  /asleep of    death 
by Gods wisdom  to bring in all other nations     before hand
this prophecy being fulfilled by the work of God  and His promise to Israel       in the very Spirit of Elijah would all the   true prophets sent by the Father    would declare   proclaim, announce, state, reveal, air, voice, articulate, express, vent, set forth, publicize, broadcast HIS SON !!  THE COMING OF CHRIST TO US ...
 

    John   the baptizer      was   going to announce     that the  Dayspring from on high     the Lightof heaven  was coming to visit and Shine   upon us   whom sat in   the darkness of  ignorance to the ways of God

  The Birth of John the Baptist ,  The   forerunner and  friend of   Bridegroom

57When it was time for Elizabeth's baby to be born, she gave birth to a son. 58And when her neighbors and relatives heard that the Lord had been very merciful to her, everyone rejoiced with her.
59When the baby was eight days old, they all came for the circumcision ceremony. They wanted to name him Zechariah, after his father. 60But Elizabeth said, "No! His name is John!"

61"What?" they exclaimed. "There is no one in all your family by that name."

62So they used gestures to ask the baby's father what he wanted to name him.

63He motioned for a writing tablet, and to everyone's surprise he wrote, "His name is John." 64Instantly Zechariah could speak again, and he began praising God.

65Awe fell upon the whole neighborhood, and the news of what had happened spread throughout the Judean hills. 66Everyone who heard about it reflected on these events and asked, "What will this child turn out to be?" For the hand of the Lord was surely upon him in a special way.

Zechariah's Prophecy

67Then his father, Zechariah, was filled with the Holy Spirit and gave this prophecy:
68"Praise the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has visited and redeemed his people.
69He has sent us a mighty Saviorg
from the royal line of his servant David,
70just as he promised
through his holy prophets long ago.
71Now we will be saved from our enemies
and from all who hate us.
72He has been merciful to our ancestors
by remembering his sacred covenant—
73the covenant he swore with an oath
to our ancestor Abraham.
74We have been rescued from our enemies
so we can serve God without fear,
75in holiness and righteousness
for as long as we live.
76"And you, my little son,
will be called the prophet of the Most High,
because you will prepare the way for the Lord.
77You will tell his people how to find salvation
through forgiveness of their sins.
78Because of God's tender mercy,
the morning light from heaven is about to break upon us,
79to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death,
and to guide us to the path of peace."
80John grew up and became strong in spirit. And he lived in the wilderness until he began his public ministry to Israel.


Do  you see it , tho    I walk though the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil for you are with me   !!    Davids psalms   another prophecy fulfilled

I do believe  when the old is fulfilled totally    as death and its shadows     are gone by the LIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE OF   GOD   though Christ       than shall all  things become new   in   LIVING   in Jesus Christ    the LIGHT OF THE WORLD   

  We wait on the Lord      and wait  for Him   

  I  believe the Lord comes   many times as well  in the clouds of GLORY  TO HIS NAME    quickening     us by the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND LIFE IN GOD  !!! 

[TheVisitor]

-Seth has a good point. All creation earnestly waits for the "manifestation of the sons of God"
-So does Julie. Is it possible He has come already? The answer in part is yes.The return of Jesus Christ is in two parts. The first part is the "appearing" of the Son of Man from heaven. This means He doesn't yet physically return but begins to reveal Himself "from heaven" to the world though a human vessel or vessels. The second part would be His coming to the earth to set up His kingdom and reign on the earth. This is what most people are looking for as the second coming. It is actually His third coming. With the separation of His appearing and His coming in mind what should we be looking for to recognize this appearing. Ask yourself what did He do the first time He was here as the Son of Man. What miracles did He perform, what signs did He display. Things only He could know about people he revealed to them, like the woman at the well. Then most importantly how He opened the Word to reveal It's true meaning...symbolic of the breaking of bread that allowed those He walked with on the road to Emmaus to recognize Him at last. As it was in the days of Lot, so it shall be...

[ed]

The first part is the "appearing" of the Son of Man from heaven. This means He doesn't yet physically return but begins to reveal Himself "from heaven" to the world though a human vessel or vessels. Hence Julie's question "could it have happened already?"

Good point.

The second part is His coming to the earth to set up His kingdom and reign on the earth with His bride. This second part is after the tribulation period, after the resurrection, after the rapture of those still living who are glorified and meet Him in the air before the tribulation even starts.

That is where sincere believers differ.  All the different interpretations are based on scripture.  There are five tradition models for interpreting the book of Revelation.

historicist method

idealist method

preterist method

Mostly futuristic method

moderate futurist method

https://bible.org/article/interpretive-models-book-revelation-whole

The writer of the article embraces the Mostly futurist method.  There are many articles written on the 5 ways of interpreting the book.  All of these interpretive methods have an influence on the doctrine that is finally embraced.

Personally I don't know about such things.  They are a bit over my head.  I prefer the idealist method because it does not box the "return of Christ" into a specific wave of events.

I tend to look at the present reign of Christ rather the the shadow of the past or the unknown future.

This part is what most people are looking for as the second coming. It is actually His third coming.

Don't leave out the time he came to me!!!!!

With this misconception that is taught and accepted as the norm, most of christianity will miss His second coming as sure as He said they would when He said He would come when they weren't watching. "As a thief in the night".

Interestingly enough the term "second coming" is not once mentioned in the Bible.

So is it possible He has come already? The answer in part is yes. With the separation of His appearing and His coming in mind what should we be looking for to recognize this appearing. Ask yourself what did He do the first time He was here as the Son of Man. What miracles did He perform, what signs did He display. Things only He could know about people he revealed to them, like the woman at the well. Then most importantly how He opened the Word to reveal It's true meaning...symbolic of the breaking of bread that allowed those He walked with on the road to Emmaus to recognize Him at last. As it was in the days of the Son of Man, so it shall be...

I'm with you there.  I think that the book of Matthew is an interesting study on the topic.  His disciples asked Jesus about when the kingdom was going to come.  He told them that some would still be alive for that event.

[onlytruth]

I live on the west coast, of bc, the only thing washed up is a harley and a drifting boat and plastic pails.as for the pills,I haven't heard a single person ever discuss this issue of radiation,etc.I have a healthy knowledge of life in and around Vancouver and will say the mass exodus is not happening....quite the contrary
DO NOT BELEIVE EVERYTHING !
I am enjoying life here and come visit and see for yourself
blessings

[Tom]

I never rode a Harley that floated. I'm wondering how one washed up. Was it in a wooden crate or what? Vancouver is a beautiful city.

[TheVisitor]

I'm with you there.  I think that the book of Matthew is an interesting study on the topic.  His disciples asked Jesus about when the kingdom was going to come.  He told them that some would still be alive for that event.

I do favor the "mostly futuristic model" but I would guess all the models have some merit.
Jesus said "some would not see death until they see the kingdom come into power".
Let's look at that statement for a moment. I believe all scripture has a compound meaning.
The disciples went to the upper room when the Spirit came down like a mighty rushing wind and endued them with power. So in that way they did see the kingdom begin then. But then one of them - John - saw a vision given to him by Jesus Christ Himself on the isle of Patmos at about 90 years old and also saw the kingdom coming into power on earth in the future.
He said "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and I heard a trumpet speaking behind me and I turned to look".
The things he described were events then yet to happen. He looked back to see two thousand years into the future.
You could say I'm describing a "mostly futuristic model" although I believe many of these events have now already happened.
According to the Egyptian astronomy calendar the year 2000 was actually 31 years ago. 1983. So...it's already later than we think.

[eaglesway]

 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

I believe the book of revelation explains itself more than most want to admit, because the explanations it gives don't fit their systematic theology. In the opening verses, the author(God through Jesus through the Spirit through John) explains clearly that the revelation is for the churches(ecclesia, called out ones, assemblies in Christ) and that the time is "at hand/nigh".

I believe the revelation through John incorporates the "was and is and is to come" (speaks into the past present and future) of God, meaning it is ALWAYS speaking in the NOW, and, it says exactly that repeatedly.

"Let the one who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"

The word of God is LIVING and ACTIVE (means immediate and applicable) and sharper than any two-edged sword((goes to primary purpose) dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow MAKING MANIFEST THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTIONS OF THE HEART.


Rev 2:23  Then all the churches(assemblies/congregations) will know that I am the one who searches men's hearts and minds, and that I will reward each one of you according to your deeds.


In the closing verses again it is made clear, "the time(for this revelation) is at hand" and the exhortation is to read and to "keep the words" of the book. Those words have been read and kept by thoise who have an ear to hear for two thousand years, and in every generation since they were given they have spoken to the assemblies, revealing the mind of Christ in the "heavenly realms in Christ Jesus" - what is real beyond the veil.



Rev 22:10 And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.


Let the one who hears say COME (this is the message) is thirsty COME(drink from the fountain that flows from those who hear what the Spirit is saying), drink FREELY.

He that believes in me out of His innermost being will flow rivers of living water.

I believe there are historical elements to the prophecy, but I think it speaks of itself that its primary purpose is to celebrate the marriage of the Lamb and His Bride, which is also and unveiling of them one to another, as He removes her veil, becomes one with her in devotion as she "makes herself ready", and that is always going on.

When the Bridegroom comes(He is always coming) and the cry is heard in the night(the Bridegroom cometh!) the virgins who have prepared themselves will go to where His voice is and partake in the wedding feast, the others will not get there in time, and will be left behind.

In every generation as God speaks, always NEW, LIVING and ACTIVE, some people hear and move(Come to a place I will show you.....Come up here) to where the Lord is and some don't.

:2c:

[TheVisitor]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend anyone here. "At hand" could be thousands of years in God's time. He doesn't get in a hurry.
Theses things are not just in Revelations. They tie together all through the scriptures.
A semicolon could separate two thousand years. Like in Isaiah 61. The Jews missed that in their day of visitation, just as the Gentiles are now in the process of missing theirs. For exactly the same reasons. They've have had the same amount of time. There were 1954 years from the promise given to Abraham to the birth of the Messiah. And from His death and resurrection, that same amount of time would be 1987. Our day of visitation is at hand. Most will miss it putting theses promises somewhere in the past or the future but failing to see what God has said He would be doing now. That's always the way it's been. God is not just a God of history of course. His is always alive and working in His people. The final voice to the final age is the voice of the Bride saying "Come"...
But, the Bridegroom won't always be coming my friend. 

[rosered]

  Well I just talked to my Niece   yesterday about spiritual things we had a great visit

   She asked me why can  I cannot understand the Bible aunt Rose ?   

  She went on and told me many have told her to just keep reading it anyway .

  I told her its because  , Jesus   the lamb of God has not opened the seals of the book for her yet ''.

I told her to pray to Him about it .

  After  we talked I  thanked God   for her    looking  to Him for answers    and not in the world
  and  Just how blessed we really are , Have we forgotten      that place !!! 

  I told her I had remembered the first time    a ray of Light come in ISAIAH     for me   and how thrilled  I was to   understand it ,I LOVED IT !   and enough charge   to keep going   , beginning the hunger and thirst  for His righteousness      , the world is in chaos  , in constant   upheaval    and our only   comfort is from trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ    and bad news ...   

So many years ago , it was exactly like a ''foreign language '''    the Folks at Tentmakers are   soooooo    very Blessed      to have so much  confirmation   of Gods plan  ,  will   and  the Good news  of this gospel     

  Do you know     how many questions and needing    the truth    to set us free   this process takes a lifetime !! 

and all of it  stems   from HIS LOVE  for all of us ,
all the evil in mankind  and what we see and hear and know on a daily basis      and yet HIS MERCY IS STILL  THERE and creating all things new  and better than before     and   most  of mankind is not even aware of it !!

and yet we can go to Him and He is near    , right there within you   to lead and guide you , we are to point to Him   for others looking   for Jesus  , He comes to dwell within you  and doing the work    and no thing/ beast / creature  on the outside has a clue   to His presence

  only by the   HOLY Spirit of Truth do we know anything at all

[ed]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend anyone here.

We grow together.  :dsunny:

James 5
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed .

It is good to be able to say what is on your mind.  Say it like you see it with no fear of being doctrinally bullied.  I think a healthy faith changes as new information is introduced.  Some times the only way to get healed is to bluntly lay it on the line and say it like you see it.  No fear.

.

[rosered]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend anyone here.

We grow together.  :dsunny:

James 5
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed .

It is good to be able to say what is on your mind.  Say it like you see it with no fear of being doctrinally bullied.  I think a healthy faith changes as new information is introduced.  Some times the only way to get healed is to bluntly lay it on the line and say it like you see it.  No fear.

.

  Exactly right

You will be     despised ,ignored and spoken against and mistreated and     tried  by many to become discouraged   , Just keep gathering into Christ !
still trying to count it as joy   in the Lord Jesus Christ    , He is our   solid      ROCK   and   protection   

  Just remember     Luke 2   Jesus testimony  is   the  sign and standard    spoken against  :sigh:


33And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him.


34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother,


"Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed--

35and a sword will pierce even your own soul-- to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."

He who  is not with me     is against Me , and  does not gather with Me  ,  but   scatters  abroad

   the rising and falling of many to be   made known   , the resurrecting and deaths   of many in this    spiritual warfare

[eaglesway]

No offense whatsoever. We are just discussing/sharing perspectives.

But our perspectives also involve the actual words of scripture and the context within which those words are set.

Of course, regarding John's apocalypse that can be more difficult, because it is full of the language of metaphor, type, symbol- hence many varied perspectives coming from honest minds- often all bearing elements of truth but different degrees of emphasis. As you have said the revelations/word pictures/types are compound in nature.

My perspective is that the revelation was given mainly for  believers, the ecclesia,  for the purpose of revealing their destiny and the plan of God as it manifests the fulness of Christ for the recovery of the whole creation.

I think the revelation was given as an immediate opening(unsealed/unveiled/apocalypse) of the mind of God and Christ, living and active and relevant in every generation until the end of this age. Bearing gifts always "at hand". The word "engys" (greek at hand, near) occurs 30 times in the NT, in virtually every case denoting close proximity in time or in distance.

But that's just my two cents worth, given as weight in the balance of ongoing discussion :o)

[onlytruth]

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