Justice

[micah7:9]

"I'm talking without looking anything up so I could be way off." (Ed)

And so, with that very way of thinking[and no offence to you my friend] is how  theologies, doctrines, denominations, sects, and today's christianity gets footholds in the minds and imaginations of men. Our hearts[minds] are the very things that are squeezed and formed; man, in the beginning was made to buy into all that our mind would-could-and can, keep man away from justice
H6666  rightness From H6663 A primitive root; to be (causatively make) right
:2c:

[micah7:9]

However, I do see that as a stepping stone in God's plan to humble mankind and bring them into himself. I don't believe that God accepts the proud, but I do believe he rejects them so that they will become humble.

There is certainty a time of rejection.  It is not a full rejection.

The the word for "resists the proud" and non-acceptance the same?  Like your web page shows, the resisting is to bring them to THE place of humility so that they will find the grace in God.  Love that teaching.  God showed it to me years ago, and when I read it on your site I was happy to see it.

:Peace2: Seth

.

Would you give more information your thought? I am at a loss in understanding.."to THE place of humility so that they will find the grace in God."
I just don't understand your thought. :Chinscratch:

[WhiteWings]

I found no "justice" in the NT. I understand what you say, in today's world, but what have you built the question on? Just what is this "justice" when I, me, personally can not study the word down?

Because you don't find the word in the NT doesn't mean it isn't implied. Just view the Bible as big Book. Not 2 separate ones. Justice is all about paying debts.
When someone stole something justice demanded that person paid it back 2 up to 7 times depending the situation.
In the OT we find many punishments for crimes.
"You shall pay...."
"You shall do..."
God clearly stated the punishment. A murderer shall be stoned to death. But never God added and when he's dead I continue punishing.

Sin, which is breaking a law, is debt that has to be paid. Often it can be paid but there are lots of situations that can't be paid. That's where Jesus steps in. He paid every last cent.
Finally, there are 2 sorts of justice.
Timora - vengence. It often involved torture of some kind.
Kolasis - correction. The word Jesus always used. That type of punishment had a learning component in it.

If God is a timora type of God, then hell fits very well. Vengeance for eternity.
If God is a correction type of God, then eternal hell means He's a failure because He's unable to teach the criminal.

[ed]

Would you give more information your thought? I am at a loss in understanding.."to THE place of humility so that they will find the grace in God."
I just don't understand your thought. :Chinscratch:

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

I memorized that verse early on in my Christian walk.  Things tend to get deeper, and God opens up the understanding through the practice of saying the word to yourself.  I experienced this with many verses that I chose as I read through the Bible.  Some verses jumped off the page at me and ministered to my immediate need.

There are a few places where this verse is used.  James, 1 Peter, and I think it is a quote from the OT.
Proverbs 3:34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Thinking it through I came to the conclusion as to why God would resist the proud.  God is love.   Why would love resist anyone?  Grace is in humility.  The humble find the grace of God in their moment of need.  God desires that all men come to knowledge of the truth............why?  It is salvation. 

It is the same with the reason that God would resist the proud.  So that they can find, and walk in the grace of God.

.

[ed]

Because you don't find the word in the NT doesn't mean it isn't implied. Just view the Bible as big Book. Not 2 separate ones. Justice is all about paying debts.
When someone stole something justice demanded that person paid it back 2 up to 7 times depending the situation.
In the OT we find many punishments for crimes.
"You shall pay...."
"You shall do..."
God clearly stated the punishment. A murderer shall be stoned to death. But never God added and when he's dead I continue punishing.

Sin, which is breaking a law, is debt that has to be paid. Often it can be paid but there are lots of situations that can't be paid. That's where Jesus steps in. He paid every last cent.
Finally, there are 2 sorts of justice.
Timora - vengence. It often involved torture of some kind.
Kolasis - correction. The word Jesus always used. That type of punishment had a learning component in it.

If God is a timora type of God, then hell fits very well. Vengeance for eternity.
If God is a correction type of God, then eternal hell means He's a failure because He's unable to teach the criminal.

This is excellent.  Thank you WW.

The context of the conversation I was having was "an eye for eye".  Equal.  Just.  This is the God that many know.   Justice is not found much in our legal system.  The scales of justice are in front of our courts though.  Got to love it.

[micah7:9]

I found no "justice" in the NT. I understand what you say, in today's world, but what have you built the question on? Just what is this "justice" when I, me, personally can not study the word down?

Because you don't find the word in the NT doesn't mean it isn't implied. Just view the Bible as big Book. Not 2 separate ones. Justice is all about paying debts.
When someone stole something justice demanded that person paid it back 2 up to 7 times depending the situation.
In the OT we find many punishments for crimes.
"You shall pay...."
"You shall do..."
God clearly stated the punishment. A murderer shall be stoned to death. But never God added and when he's dead I continue punishing.

Sin, which is breaking a law, is debt that has to be paid. Often it can be paid but there are lots of situations that can't be paid. That's where Jesus steps in. He paid every last cent.
Finally, there are 2 sorts of justice.
Timora - vengence. It often involved torture of some kind.
Kolasis - correction. The word Jesus always used. That type of punishment had a learning component in it.

If God is a timora type of God, then hell fits very well. Vengeance for eternity.
If God is a correction type of God, then eternal hell means He's a failure because He's unable to teach the criminal.

I agree, and I am not trying to separate 2 books, for me the book is One. I just looked the word up. And yes the word has the implication, the word justice is spoke a lot today, the implication is as you say, our implication.

[Seth]

Thinking it through I came to the conclusion as to why God would resist the proud.  God is love.   Why would love resist anyone?  Grace is in humility.  The humble find the grace of God in their moment of need.  God desires that all men come to knowledge of the truth............why?  It is salvation. 

It is the same with the reason that God would resist the proud.  So that they can find, and walk in the grace of God.

Amen.

I resist my own daughter when she is proud, when she is haughty and talks back. I sure do resist her and it causes her to be humbled. Sometimes, if she refuses to listen, I allow her to make her own mistakes so she sees a better path.

[dajomaco]

Justice can be easily understood as it pertains to the flesh.
The wisdom of this world cries for justice.

But what is spiritual justice.

Can the spirit of a man beheld to an account.
Can the injustice we commit in the flesh.
Cause us to have an unjust spirit.

[Seth]

A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[dajomaco]

A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The faith to believe the above statement is beyond me . 

[Seth]

I guess, thank you? :dontknow:

[dajomaco]

The idea of a just deal.
Where two parties come out even, at the end of the deal.
It could be reported that the deal was a just deal.

There is no just work that I could perform that would match
the work of the cross.
Where Jesus and I come out even.
Neither one  of us owing the other.

[dajomaco]

So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?

[dajomaco]

Therefore, let it be known to you, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is being proclaimed to you,  39 and everyone who believes in Him is justified

[Seth]

The idea of a just deal.
Where two parties come out even, at the end of the deal.
It could be reported that the deal was a just deal.

There is no just work that I could perform that would match
the work of the cross.
Where Jesus and I come out even.
Neither one  of us owing the other.

When I look at James 2 I don't see works as a matter of making us even or even making a deal.

It's about showing the love that the Holy Spirit has planted in you. Love is to be shown in act not just in tongue. It has nothing to do with making deals and all other legal jargon. Rather, a changed heart, and a transformed life.

The context of "works" in James is not works of the Law but those done for a brother consistent with want James said in Chapter 1: "The word planted in you..."

A pimp is not justified by saying "I believe in Jesus" but adding repentance of pimping and abandoning those works for the ones consistent with a Son of God.

[Seth]

Therefore, let it be known to you, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is being proclaimed to you,  39 and everyone who believes in Him is justified

No, a man is justified by works and not by faith alone, just not by works of the Law.

One thing I see lacking in a lot of UR teaching is the purpose of the indwelling Holy Spirit in God's plan of salvation. The Bible speaks extensively on the purpose, but I find little spoken in UR teaching about WHY and what this powerful Spirit is doing for us in this Temple and what it has to do with works.

Again, the Apostles speak at length about it, but in UR, it seems most people speak more about Christ's death than his Life.

[Seth]

Hi Julie,
I just want to clarify that I do believe God sent his Son to die for the sins of the world so that he could forgive past sins and provide salvation from sin  by way of his life, going forward. In that manner, the Father commended his love for the world. I just don't believe he did it to provide salvation from his own anger, rather the judgment we find ourselves in from birth, dying in Adam. I don't believe the sacrifice was a legal exchange to satiate God's wrath by disguising us as Christ through proxy righteousness.

[Seth]

Yes, if that is how you meant it, I agree. The Father set the requirement for a Lamb but Jesus willingly took that role upon himself. I thought you were saying that the blood sacrifice was not literal.

[Seth]

The way I see it if God required a Lamb for the sin of the world to die, and Jesus willingly took that role for the benefit of other people, that's a sacrifice.

[Seth]

Yes I believe God knew it was going to happen that it was his plan all along. Jesus died as the Lamb to commend the love of God. God did require a Lamb, and supplie one in himself.

[Seth]

Are you saying that God didn't require the sacrifice of lambs to atone for sin, or that those passages in the OT and NT are not authentic?

[ed]

So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?

DJ in my opinion it is neither.  :friendstu:

Speaking from my experience and much that I have read and heard. With the Spirit comes a transformation that is so utterly complete that it even belies the word. Father is LOVE as well as SPIRIT. It stands to reason that the transformation would be of a Spirit of Love.  :HeartThrob: My whole life is filled with LOVE.

This is why I find the term "Works" a little misleading, because what was once considered work is now "joy." Where "working" appears to indicate a requirement or obligation, stepping up to help with a love filled heart and not a single expectation is far removed from work. This is not to say that a lot of effort and long hours can be spent but time just flies because it is fun.

This is what I am sure James was alluding too. The Greek or Aramaic word for "Works" may had a different nuance than the English translation portrays. Regardless, Faith is a gift from Father and goes hand in hand (IMO) with the Spirit of Love. Grass, grows - Fish, swim - The Spirit of Love through Faith, produces good works.

I also understand that "works" covers a whole multitude of things. Things like how one wakes up and greets the morning. How they smile and treat others and how they step up to help when before they would not have noticed. Of course it can mean the big things too. But I always remember how Jesus praised the old Lady who gave but a "penny;" saying that she gave "more" than anyone else. Seems to me, this indicates the Spirit in which she gave rather than the amount.

Works of Love are very likely to be measured in much the same way. I know it sure melts my heart when I do something seemingly insignificant and receive a big smile and Thanks. Priceless    :cloud9:

Just the way I see it ......

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[micah7:9]

Wow.

[WhiteWings]

Are you saying that God didn't require the sacrifice of lambs to atone for sin, or that those passages in the OT and NT are not authentic?

Require, not desire.


Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Psalm 51:16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offering

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

Isa 1:11 "The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

1 Sam 15:22 But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

[micah7:9]

Wow.

:dontknow: please explain  :girlheart:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

It is a word used for total amazement, an expression of surprise. :dsunny: