The Meaning Of Christ's Atonement For Sin Without Hell

[Seth]

When ever I add works with faith it weakens my ability to stand in the thronroom

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[micah7:9]

Christ had a righteousness that
left him the ability to talk to and hear from God his father.

WE have been given a righteousness that
gives us the ability to talk to and hear from God our Father.

You have to have a clear conscience to go boldly in to the throne room of God
looking for your Father.

You can have a clear conscience through faith in Jesus.
You can go into the throne room thinking and believing the only reason,
That the Father would entertain any of your request was because of his satisfaction
with his son .

When ever I add works with faith it weakens my ability to stand in the thronroom

:dsunny: Not many will understand that, but put me on the list. :Peace2:

[Seth]

Paul himself said that "the doers of the Law shall be justified."

I think what made Paul so difficult to understand in Peter's opinion is that because Paul brought the evangel to the Gentiles, his work was constantly under threat from Judaizers who kept coming in with things like Circumcision.

Now, Paul always said that loving your neighbor (bringing him a blanket when he is cold, not stealing, not coveting) fulfilled the Law, but he kept having to deal with the legalism of Judaizers and their diverse washings and Sabbaths and all these things which were beside the point of loving our neighbor and finding the pleasing way to do that through faith and the Spirit impartation.

As a result, Paul spoke very powerfully about faith, but I think there has been misunderstandings. He said something very provocative which sounds exactly like the phrase "you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Check it out:

Romans 2
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Wait a minute, WHAT?

Paul spent so much time proclaiming that we are justified by works apart from the Law, so what gives? Here is what he means: WORKS of love fulfill the Law, no different from what James was speaking. Paul is verifying "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" but in the following context:

Romans 2
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts

There we go. Those who are DOERS of the Law are justified....even though they don't have the Law, because they do instinctively the things of the Law. Here are the things they do:


Romans 2
21You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

There it is. Not just the hearers of the Law are justified, but the doers of the Law are justified. The difference between Judaizers and Paul is that the Gentiles have been enabled to be doers of the Law, by nature, and that is why they are justified.

Romans2
25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

That's it. By keeping the requirements of the Law (do not steal, do not covet, give a blanket to a brother who is cold) Gentiles uncircumcision is regarded as circumcision. THAT is justification, that is how Paul agrees with James: "You see that a man is justified by works (doers of the Law) and not by faith alone." (a man who is  DOER of the Law is justified). The separating factor between Covenants is that the DOING is a work of the Holy Spirit indwelling, not the letter of the Law of Moses.

This is what I believe the church at large has misunderstood about faith and how it justifies and how it brings salvation.

[Seth]

:dsunny: Not many will understand that, but put me on the list. :Peace2:

So then, do you essentially disagree with

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Seth]

Many people deal with James' words by generalizing them to say: Man is justified by faith alone and works must follow.

No.

He literally says: Man is justified by WORKS, and NOT by faith alone.

That's a very difficult scripture to maintain in its potent original saying. But Paul agreed when he said "DOERS of the Law are justified" which I explained above.

[micah7:9]

As I stated, not many will understand what dajomaco posted. :Peace2:

[Seth]

As I stated, not many will understand what dajomaco posted. :Peace2:

Well if you understand, and I am of the many who do not, then why not explain?  :dontknow:

[micah7:9]

Just go back and read his post, I really cannot explain it, it is just there. I am not trying to be a smart aleck :Peace2:

[Seth]

Dajomaco says: WE have been given a righteousness that
gives us the ability to talk to and hear from God our Father.

Here is where I disagree: We have been given a FAITH to talk and hear from God. The righteousness comes when we DO what we hear from him.

Which is why I disagree with: When ever I add works with faith it weakens my ability to stand in the throneroom

I'm sorry, Micah, but Paul said that it is not HEARERS only, but DOERS who are justified before God. I do not, therefore, see the scriptural foundation for NOT adding works with faith. James is clear that incomplete faith justifies nobody. Works added to faith make the faith complete. Only complete faith justifies anyone.

I know these aren't popular words, but I believe they are scripturally sound.

[Seth]

Go no further than the Sermon on the Mount for verification of what I am saying:

Matthew 5
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Wow. Not, blessed are the believers. Belief is critical, no doubt. We cannot please God without it. But James and Paul explain that COMPLETED faith is what justifies man. You may say you have faith, but if you do not add mercy to your faith, don't expect mercy from the Lord. Blessed are not just the professors of faith, but the MERCIFUL.

Another one:

Matthew 5
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Hmmm. :Chinscratch: Again, not "blessed are the believers." No, blessed are the PEACEMAKERS. For, THEY shall be called the children of God. So, we who profess faith may want to add peacemaker to our faith if we want to be called children of God. I don't want to go on too long, but it will always get back to: "For it is not hearers of the Law who are justified, but doers of the Law shall be justified before God."

Trust me, I am saying these words to myself as well, in fact primarily so...

[micah7:9]

Faith: I believe that faith[persuasion] of it's self is works (an inward action). Faith is a laboring, and I as will labor with it, to keep the faith through a constant work in persuasion to keep the faith.  I am sure that works as good deeds can help strengthen my faith, but those works, to me anyway, have a tendency to make me consider myself more than I am. Should/when I am called to do good deeds[work] I hope to be available when I hear His voice. But it seems to me anyway, that a lot of people do many good works and just the the fact they are human, hidden or outward pride slips in and they think more of themselves, I find this as a slippery slope. This of course is how I have been given to understand my faith.

[Seth]

Faith: I believe that faith[persuasion] of it's self is works (an inward action). Faith is a laboring, and I as will labor with it, to keep the faith through a constant work in persuasion to keep the faith. 

Ok, but how well does that stand up with James' intention?

"A man is saved by faith and not by faith alone?" Huh? Surely, though we can see James' intention when we look at the context:

James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James, in context, is talking about mercy, and acts of love toward other people, not just inward works. If anyone wants mercy from the Lord, we must also be merciful. James is saying that if a man says he has faith but has no works, and sends a brother down the road with nothing to feed him or clothe him, that man is simply not justified before God and is not saved from his former life of lacking mercy.

I am sure that works as good deeds can help strengthen my faith, but those works, to me anyway, have a tendency to make me consider myself more than I am.

I think Paul countered his own tendency to do that by saying "I labored more than anyone, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me." He cast himself down and gave all credit to God for his good deeds and labor.

[micah7:9]

Faith: I believe that faith[persuasion] of it's self is works (an inward action). Faith is a laboring, and I as will labor with it, to keep the faith through a constant work in persuasion to keep the faith. 

Ok, but how well does that stand up with James' intention?

"A man is saved by faith and not by faith alone?" Huh? Surely, though we can see James' intention when we look at the context:

James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James, in context, is talking about mercy, and acts of love toward other people, not just inward works. If anyone wants mercy from the Lord, we must also be merciful. James is saying that if a man says he has faith but has no works, and sends a brother down the road with nothing to feed him or clothe him, that man is simply not justified before God and is not saved from his former life of lacking mercy.

I am sure that works as good deeds can help strengthen my faith, but those works, to me anyway, have a tendency to make me consider myself more than I am.

I think Paul countered his own tendency to do that by saying "I labored more than anyone, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me." He cast himself down and gave all credit to God for his good deeds and labor.

I am not implying not to do good works, I am saying that those works when man does them must be without vanity and that for me is one difficult piece of work. When we are in the position to do those works, what is our motivation? Man enjoys recognition and applause.
Yes, Paul did, and I would say that was faith working and I say that his ability to do so was a work. As for context, I seem to always see the context is brought down to human understanding. We who are chosen and led to laboring in our study and prayer, I do not believe have even scratched the surface of Spirit, understanding or much less walking in Spirit.(That is only thought)
Only One, that I know of has been born from above, born again, as it is said, I am being born from above and I don't believe I have come close to speak as Paul, "I labored more than anyone, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me." 
But I am confident in the Faith of Jesus Christ for my growth.

[Seth]

 :iagree:

I agree on the difficulty too. I was always trained to believe that salvation was a walk in the park, back when I believedin Hell. Say a few words, get dunked in water and bada-bing! Saved!

When I found out the salvation is from sin itelf, I thought maybe there's more to it than this "sinner prayer" business. As long as we have this flesh we run a race...

[Seth]

I know I have been hammering at "works, works, works" on this thread but if we take a step back what are we talking about? Mercy.

Don't we all want to be more merciful? More peace making? I don't know of anyone on these UR boards who don't want to be made into better people by the Gospel. I know I have been very theological with Paul and James, but I believe that the goal of the Gospel is to give us things that I believe we on these boards already want.

Jesus even said: "blessed are those who thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled."

Hard to write those words without tears filling my eyes. We are all thirsty. His YOKE IS LIGHT, not heavy. My goal in this thread is to connect these things to theology so that sense can be made of things which appear to contradict, but actually do not.

[Seth]

I'll say it outright, I don't believe that anyone is justified before God without obedience, without outward manifestation of inward salvation. But that doesn't mean I think they are going to hell either. I just believe those who are not justified are headed for a correction, a big-time correction that might hurt like a woman in the pain of labor, but will produce the works of righteousness God wants in them.

I do think we should rather judge ourselves now than be condemned with the world, but I am not saying that the unjustified are going to hell and are lost forever. Hopefully I am clear on that.

After all, we in UR understand that famous scripture "When God's judgments are in the earth, the people of the world LEARN righteousness."

:laughing7: Doesn't that just say it all? Righteousness is not given on a silver platter (ie without judgment). We must LEARN righteousness. We must LEARN the ways of the Lord. After all, that is the reason that the Bible says that the time has come "for judgment to begin with the house of God."

In a way, righteousness is indeed given on a silver platter, but in the sense that God has chosen who to give it to. Those he chooses experience his judgment to LEARN his ways and be justified before him.

[JulieTang84]

Works seems to be the stumbling block. When done without the Spirit of Love, even the best of deeds seem like "work." However, once Father has blessed us by bringing one to Christ, there is no "work" because everything is performed with *** Joy *** Time just flies and an undesirable "warmth" just fills  the soul.

Everything just falls into place and there is NEVER any 2nd guessing. I find your point, Seth: As long as we have flesh we run a race.... Very apt. Paul said to: "Run it as to win."  Yet Father said to: Be Still and know that I am God. Seems to indicate: "Running to Stand still." Which fits perfectly as Paul mentioned here:

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Eph 4:15
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Jesus gave a wonderful illustration of Faith in the parable of the "Talents of Silver." Replace the word Silver with "Faith" and what James said about Faith without works being dead, becomes very clear. When Paul said to Speak the truth in Love, is a joyful experience because one is being lead by the Spirit. Such 'Works"  bring fulfillment at no cost.

Gosh I hope I have not hi-jacked this thread, something I seem to do too easily.  :doh:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

I'll say it outright, I don't believe that anyone is justified before God without obedience, without outward manifestation of inward salvation. But that doesn't mean I think they are going to hell either. I just believe those who are not justified are headed for a correction, a big-time correction that might hurt like a woman in the pain of labor, but will produce the works of righteousness God wants in them.

I do think we should rather judge ourselves now than be condemned with the world, but I am not saying that the unjustified are going to hell and are lost forever. Hopefully I am clear on that.

After all, we in UR understand that famous scripture "When God's judgments are in the earth, the people of the world LEARN righteousness."

:laughing7: Doesn't that just say it all? Righteousness is not given on a silver platter (ie without judgment). We must LEARN righteousness. We must LEARN the ways of the Lord. After all, that is the reason that the Bible says that the time has come "for judgment to begin with the house of God."

In a way, righteousness is indeed given on a silver platter, but in the sense that God has chosen who to give it to. Those he chooses experience his judgment to LEARN his ways and be justified before him.

:dsunny:  Beautiful  :friendstu:


:HeartThrob:  Julie

[Seth]

Thank you Julie  :HeartThrob:

Basically, I would say that if I walk without mercy, without caring for people, without adding love to my faith, I don't want God to call me justified (righteous) because that would be a lie. Rather, I would want him to see my lack of righteousness and correct it, because really want him to make me better.

In my former religious teaching, I was deathly afraid of being called unjustified because it meant (gasp!) HELL!

But now I see it only means there is more work to do on the clay to make it into a pot pleasing to the Potter. We don't have to be afraid of God as a bully. Despise thou NOT the chastening of the Lord.

[jabcat]

 Doh!   :laughing7:  Just when I think we've got it settled.

I'm trying to keep a sock in my mouth, but it just slipped out.  I'll get it back in.  JUST AS SOON AS I SAY THIS!!  :)   :gimmefive:   (I'm also afraid this is starting to loop, go around in circles..and I DO get dizzy on merry-go-rounds   :laugh:)

I think there's much truth permeating this thread, including in dajamaco's last post.  I believe you've hit some key issues Seth, but I'm still personally here;  the initial salvation (becoming a child) is only through the gift of faith to believe on Jesus.  Given.  Made righteous in God's eyes only through the blood applied.  Done deal, when as you say, God chooses to save. .  Then; we grow from there - "growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".  Works/choices/surrender/faithfulness are involved in that.

Seth, you've said you don't believe we do;  but as I see it, if we did have to totally work for God's "favor" and righteousness, then it's not a gift.  Also, in that scenario, I would be concerned about the possibility of diminishing the cross.  Belief and faith in Jesus (He is the door to the sheepfold) I believe is the absolute initial ("basic") requirement.  Then everything else goes from there.   :2c: 

Rom. 5:1,2  YLT   Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.
 

To me, it's salvation of the spirit (spiritual rebirth), then the works of God through us, bringing us into healing, overcoming, victory, maturity (the KJV calls it 'perfection') - described by Paul as being a man rather than a child/babe of God.   Child of God first, then man of God through maturity, growth, discipline and surrender/obedience, etc...  :2c:     

[Seth]

I think there's much truth permeating this thread, including in dajamaco's last post.  I believe you've hit some key issues Seth, but I'm still personally here;  the initial salvation (becoming a child) is only through the gift of faith to believe on Jesus. 

Ok, so maybe I can explain where that confuses me. Romans 5 says this:

Romans 5
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That is why Paul literally never says the words "faith alone." You quoted Romans 5 below "having been declared righteous then by faith."  That's what it means. By faith we receive his LIFE unto salvation (healing) from sin, and therefore justification. Obedience has always been the goal of the Gospel. When Paul said that God saw the faith of Abraham and imputed it to him for righteousness, he was talking about the fact that Abraham was obedient because he had faith, not because he was under the Law of Moses. God did not credit faith to Abraham APART from his obedience. If Abraham had refused to place Isaac on the altar, he would not have been justified. Paul would agree and James would agree on that. But NO LAW told Abraham to do that. Abraham did it on faith and that is what made him justified. James says this, practically word for word.

The problem of confusion for me, is that I do not see anywhere that salvation is by faith alone. I don't see an "initial salvation" apart from from Christ's LIFE (faith alone). So, it's very difficult for me to say that anyone is saved by faith alone in any respect. I know that some of these theories are developed to explain the seeming contradictions between Paul and James, but I don't see anywhere where they taught a three-stage salvation process with faith alone, then faith plus works.

What I see is that Salvation comes ONLY by the Life of Christ, not by faith alone.

So the question is what kind of faith brings salvation? Completed faith, or incomplete faith? Completed faith is that in which works make the faith complete and the result is justification (justification by faith).  So, maybe I can resolve some issues by saying this: Man is justified by completed faith alone.

But James is pretty clear on what that means....

Made righteous in God's eyes only through the blood.  Done deal.  Then; we grow from there

But James says "Man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Paul says "Not just the hearers of the Law are justified before God, but the DOERS of the Law are justified"

They both agree, so why the need to reconciled them by a concept of a three stage salvation process?

Seth, you've said you don't believe we do;  but as I see it, if we did have to totally work for God's "favor" and righteousness, then it's not a gift. 

The gift is the Holy Spirit. We don't work for that. What makes us righteous before God is the works that the Spirit does with our hands when faith has comes (righteousness by faith and not by works of the Law).

[jabcat]

I'm trying to be quiet..you want me to respond now, or in a couple of days?    :laugh:

:OhNo:  I'll say this quickly in response to your statement that the gift is the Holy Spirit.  Yes, the Holy Spirit is a gift, and part of the cleansing/renewing process.  However, when Paul talks of salvation, he says the gift is grace through faith, and none of it is of us...gift..given.    Shhhhh    :)

[Seth]

I'm trying to be quiet..you want me to respond now, or in a couple of days?   

:OhNo:  I'll say this quickly in response to your statement that the gift is the Holy Spirit.  Yes, the Holy Spirit is a gift, and part of the cleansing/renewing process.  However, when Paul talks of salvation, he says the gift is grace through faith, and none of it is of us...gift..given.    Shhhhh    :)

LOL, any time, brother  :friendstu:

Look what Paul says regarding saved by Grace

Ephesians
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul is saying that the faith is not of ourselves and that BY GRACE God made us alive together with Christ by being HIS workmanship created unto Good works. Salvation is NOT of ourselves, the gift of God is being made the righteousness of Christ through the good works that the Spirit has done to save us from (sticking with Ephesians 2):

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Stopping the walk according to the course of this world is both work, and not of ourselves. It is a gift of God. But if the walk is maintained, you have no justification.

The salvation is by his life, never by "faith alone." Faith alone cannot save anyone from trespasses. If they continue in trespasses after they believed, "then faith is dead" and they therefore have no justification. James makes it impossible to be justified without obedience. Faith without works is dead. Therefore, no justification without completed faith.

[JulieTang84]

quote from Seth

The problem of confusion for me, is that I do not see anywhere that salvation is by faith alone. I don't see an "initital salvation" apart from from Christ's LIFE. So, it's very difficult for me to say that anyone is saved by faith alone in any respect.

The simple TRUTH is there is absolutely NO ONE who will not be saved. It is safer than MONEY in the bank. SO safe that Father through Jesus indicated that even those that very little spiritual knowledge has been given, very little will be expected.

Seth, I know you have given the Scriptures a great deal of thought, but PLEASE stop and think on PERFECT LOVE and then realize that you are likely a squillion miles short of the mark. Father is just so far beyond anything we can imagine.

I would suggest to just mediate on LOVE, perfect parental Love and then on ALL the marvelous and beautiful things that Father has given ALL his Children to marvel at. Do not worry about how you will be saved, or for that matter how anyone will be. Just let it go bro and allow Fathers Love to transcend in and through you. Nothing Else Matters. This was the greatest LESSON Father has ever given me.

Absolutely NOTHING matters except the joy, love and peace in my heart. Whilst-ever I give greater concern to anything else then I am pulling down the blinds on Fathers Love. I am making something matter that is at best temporal, for nothing in this life will last. Nothing. Except the Love we have for Father, His Son and one another; unconditional Love is boundless and limitless.

I have spent a lot of years studying, dissecting and debating Scripture. Gosh, I likely am still  :mock:

But it is different now. I love it when you debate me and push me. I smile now, where once I would've taken it personal and got all bent out of shape. I am in control of my feelings and when I just let them go, thanking them but telling them that I don't need them anymore. I can just be. Be in a state of joyful being with not a concern about anything.

Would you believe that this is what Trust means: trusting Father that His will, will be done and that He has Everyone of his Children best interest at heart. Faith is KNOWING it will be so. Love is finally living without a question, because having answers no longer matters. Father does not want a trust based on knowledge, rather He wants Trust based on a child like heart filled with love, appreciation and a joy that just cannot be dulled.

This is what Love, Trust and Faith means to me and I honestly need not know anything else.

I hope you understand.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob: :friendstu:

[Seth]

The simple TRUTH is there is absolutely NO ONE who will not be saved. It is safer than MONEY in the bank. SO safe that Father through Jesus indicated that even those that very little spiritual knowledge has been given, very little will be expected.

Seth, I know you have given the Scriptures a great deal of thought, but PLEASE stop and think on PERFECT LOVE and then realize that you are likely a squillion miles short of the mark. Father is just so far beyond anything we can imagine.

Julie, I already know that everyone will be saved.  :doh:

When did I say I was perfectly on the mark? C'mon, Julie.  :friendstu: