Tentmaker Forum

Edit: changing the title of the thread to avoid misconceptions of my intention.

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I thought I would create a new topic from this, as an offshoot from another thread based on the Hebrew meaning of faith.

I believe the Substitutionary Atonement Doctrine (aka the Penal Substitution Doctrine) is in error and causes a confusion in understanding the scripture. Many people attempt to explain the doctrine of UR to their preachers but are met with a plethora of scriptures which can be easily explained by understanding that the Substitutionary Atonement paradigm is at the heart of the confusion.

Here is what the doctrine says in so many words:
"Man is sinful since Adam, and therefore bound for Hell. God gave the Law and told the Jews to "choose life" so that by following the Law they could be saved from Hell. Since man cannot do the Law, Jesus came as a ransom for us, so that by dying for our sins, we could be saved from Hell by simply believing in Jesus, because when we believe in Jesus God takes Christ's righteousness for our own, and we can get into Heaven without works, but with faith alone."

That's Substitutionary Atonement Doctrine in a nutshell. Now, what I used to do as a UR believer is remove "Hell" from the above doctrine while keeping the rest. Yet, I wondered if Hell does not exist, then what did Jesus ransom me from? What am I to be saved from? Not going to Heaven? That led me into Annihilationism, as though it were salvation from not getting into heaven by way of a big ball of literal fire to wipe the unbelievers out.

However, I now have a view that is a total paradigm shift from the SA doctrine. Here it is in a nutshell.

What I Now Believe
"Man has a carnal mind, and to be carnally minded is death and results in carnal works of sin. God brought the Law and told them to "choose life" by following it. However, the Law kept them in bondage to death in transgressions because it could not bring spiritual freedom from the carnal mind. The goal of the New Covenant was to bring spiritual freedom, and therefore Christ died to be reborn three days later as a life giving Spirit. This was the ransom (the price required to free the prisoners). The Law, which counted men's sins against him only, was removed, reconciling man. Then, God gives the faith of Christ and the Spirit, so that salvation is not by works of the Law, but by God's choice. Once the Spirit comes, the bond of carnality is broken from the mind, and the works follow suit resulting in righteousness inside and out, and salvation from sin. In the next life, we are also promised immortality together with God and along with indwelling Life."

I am not sure what I would call that doctrine, but it's much different from the SA one in a key point: works and salvation. Works lead to salvation from transgressions in the sense that they cause a shift in the direction of a person's life. An example I tend to give is heroin abuse.

To be saved from heroin abuse requires the active ceasing of abusing heroin. Common sense. But that's a work. Jesus came to save us from sin and transgression by causing a shift in our minds, and therefore a shift in our actions, thereby saving us from, as Peter put it, "this untoward generation."

What you have said above is very good, but I think there are several reasons for Jesus the Christ dying on the cross.  I don't care to dismiss Substitutionary Atonement, but I would delete the Hell part of it.  Nor would I dismiss your, as yet unnamed, slant on it. 

What I would do is to add that Jesus died so that we could become heirs of the Kingdom along with Him, in the sense that no one inherits except by the death of the testator. 

Another thing coming to my mind is that YHWH/Jesus, having taken corporate Israel as His Bride at Sinai (wherever that was), rightly considered Israel and Judah (two sisters, as per Jacob) as His wives.  In fact, He said as much, and portraying Himself as a Bigamist in the process.  When these sisters went after other gods, YHWH/Jesus rightly considered it to be adultery, and sent them packing out of the house/promised land.  What to do?  Being divorced from their Husband, the wives cannot remarry Him.  Only by Him dying, for God's Own Law states that a divorced woman is only free upon the death of her Husband, are they free to remarry.  Having died, YHWH/Jesus is now, at this very time, free to take His Wives back, but this time as a single entity, the Bride of Christ. 

Now, if you wonder at my YHWH = Jesus, just plug the very ancient pictographic meanings of the letters into the tetragrammaton:

He = a window, or "behold"

Wav/Vav = a tent peg, or a nail

He = a window, or "behold"

Yod = a hand, the right hand

So, there were layers of meaning to the Name God gave to Moses, and one layer can be read as:

Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand.

I want to clarify that I am not disagreeing with the idea of a substitution itself. Jesus is the Lamb. So he is a substitute in that way. I am talking about the idea of Christ dying to satisfy a Divine wrath as a sort of legal exchange. I don't think that plays out in the scripture, particularly since Romans 1 shows that man is already under God's wrath by being turned over to a carnal mind. Justification is not so we can escape a whipping in hell, but that we may be saved from "alienation from God in the mind through wicked works."

If the ET view is correct, Jesus would need to spend an eternity in Hell in my place if it's truly a legal exchange.

I agree, many things happened on the cross. So I don't mean to oversimplify.

Quote from: Seth on January 07, 2014, 03:11:52 AM
I want to clarify that I am not disagreeing with the idea of a substitution itself. Jesus is the Lamb. So he is a substitute in that way. I am talking about the idea of Christ dying to satisfy a Divine wrath as a sort of legal exchange. I don't think that plays out in the scripture, particularly since Romans 1 shows that man is already under God's wrath by being turned over to a carnal mind. Justification is not so we can escape a whipping in hell, but that we may be saved from "alienation from God in the mind through wicked works."

If the ET view is correct, Jesus would need to spend an eternity in Hell in my place if it's truly a legal exchange.

I agree, many things happened on the cross. So I don't mean to oversimplify.

Only your mind knows the wicked works that causes your mind to acknowledge
an alienation from God.
The battle is for your mind.
Can you believe that you are saved from the alienation from God ,
while still being involved in your wicked works.?

Thank God yes we can have faith that nothing in this world
can separate us from God .

Heroin is not a sin .
The sin is how the law abuses those involved in addiction.   

Quote from: DajomacoCan you believe that you are saved from the alienation from God ,
while still being involved in your wicked works.?

You left out a key term.

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Yes, we can be alienated from God IN OUR MINDS, not that he is alienated from US.

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The point is that heroin abuse is something that people need salvation from. Ask any family member of a heroin addict and they will tell you the same.

I have shared this with the believers I gather with, that ties together with your thoughts. Adam and Eve, when they sinned, suffered from thinking they were alienated from God, and also were filled with shame at their nakedness, so they hid from him. I see this as the death they brought into the world, a death like a sheet covering the minds and hearts of all after him, as Isaiah 25 plainly says by means of parallelism.

I think it is important to see that Yeshua said 'it is accomplished' BEFORE he physically died, which tells me that what he came to accomplish with regard to Adam, he finished it then...
He died naked, despising the shame, taking that on and conquering it.
He experienced a mind of alienation from God, which is why he cried out 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' This is the only time he ever recorded to not say 'Father' in his prayers.
Just as with Adam, and as you noted, God never abandoned man, or alienated himself from him, it was the other way around.
I see it in that sense only that there was a substitution going on, Yeshua experiencing what Adam and Eve did, and because sin paid wages to a man who did not work for it (Yeshua never gave in to temptation) sin was thus condemned in his flesh, and so he could die physically and thus take all mankind with him into that death, and thus justify all mankind, which would be the basis for being resurrected, since the debt is justified, or paid in full, upon death.
(Rom 6:7)  For he who has died has been freed from sin.
(Rom 4:5) Who was delivered up because of our sins, and was raised because of our justification.

Ronen

Quote from: gregoryflI have shared this with the believers I gather with, that ties together with your thoughts. Adam and Eve, when they sinned, suffered from thinking they were alienated from God, and also were filled with shame at their nakedness, so they hid from him. I see this as the death they brought into the world, a death like a sheet covering the minds and hearts of all after him, as Isaiah 25 plainly says by means of parallelism.

I think it is important to see that Yeshua said 'it is accomplished' BEFORE he physically died, which tells me that what he came to accomplish with regard to Adam, he finished it then...
He died naked, despising the shame, taking that on and conquering it.
He experienced a mind of alienation from God, which is why he cried out 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' This is the only time he ever recorded to not say 'Father' in his prayers.
Just as with Adam, and as you noted, God never abandoned man, or alienated himself from him, it was the other way around.
I see it in that sense only that there was a substitution going on, Yeshua experiencing what Adam and Eve did, and because sin paid wages to a man who did not work for it (Yeshua never gave in to temptation) sin was thus condemned in his flesh, and so he could die physically and thus take all mankind with him into that death, and thus justify all mankind, which would be the basis for being resurrected, since the debt is justified, or paid in full, upon death.
(Rom 6:7)  For he who has died has been freed from sin.
(Rom 4:5) Who was delivered up because of our sins, and was raised because of our justification.

I'm not sure how well this ties into what you are saying Ronen, but I believe there is a type/shadow vs reality at work here which resolves much of what scripture says about justification. I see that Christ substituted himself for the lambs, satisfying the debt owed in the Law which was to offer a self sacrifice of a lamb which was, as it turned out, for the remembrance of sin.

The type/shadow is that Jesus died on the cross (something the Law itself did not specifically demand) putting to death the flesh in a physical way, so that man can die in a spiritual way to sin (which is the reality).

This is much different than saying that God is so angry with mankind that is is going to kick some butt, but Jesus stepped in and "paid a debt" so we wouldn't get our butts kicked. Justification is often used as a legal term to say that God cannot now kick our butt because Jesus makes us righteous by proxy, even when we are unregenerate and our works do not follow.

This contradicts much of scripture.

We see something very interesting when we look closer at the term "justification."

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed (daikioo) from sin.

That term "daikioo" is the same root word for "justified," and is actually the same term for "righteous." Paul is defining his meaning of justification here, as being baptized into his death (by the Spirit), walking in newness of life, having the body of sin destroyed so as to serve sin no more, and being dead to sin, and in the context he is using it, freed from sin by the Spirit.

So when I go back to Romans 4:5 I see:

Romans 4:5
Who was delivered up because of our sins, and was raised because of our justification.

You see, he died for our sins so that we may receive forgiveness by way of putting away the Law, but was RAISED for our justification (righteousness, newness of life). The justification therefore occurs by his LIFE, which Paul is revealing in Romans 6, through baptism of the Spirit.

This justification comes through faith because by faith the resurrection of Christ (the Spirit) comes to be an indwelling.

In these terms, I do not see "justification" as a way out of a royal butt whooping by God, but a way out of the wrath of the carnal mind that man is already under, which is why Jesus said that those who do not believe are "condemned (judged) already because they have not believed."

To boil it down: I don't believe the scriptures are meaning to say that Jesus Christ is righteous for us by proxy (ie in our place), but that his own justification/righteousness is worked THROUGH his believers because they have faith, and he does this through the Spirit. And that is what it means to be "righteous" or "justified" by faith, in how Paul defines it as "walking in newness of life."

I believe the Bible is saying that because we were not able to be righteous ourselves, Jesus died (because we were sinful), and was RAISED to make us righteous by himself, through us, to be the author of our salvation from sin through the Spirit.

Yes, no more than anyone should think that Adam was a sinner in our place. The consequencess of his actions were worked through all mankind. Man truly was a sinner from Adam on. Yeshua restored man to the original innocence that Adam had, free of a consciousness of sin, and we have the privilege to tell everyone what he has done for them.

Ronen

Hey Seth, great thread.

I had issues with God requiring blood.  In the end I was fine with not calling myself a Christian.  The odd thing is that the relationship that I had with God did not change when I renounced certain Christian doctrine.  I came to the conclusion that God does not care what doctrine we hold, the Spirit is still able to work with us to will and do of it's good pleasure.  I'm oddly not Christian now, but oddly still Christian.  Really just tagging this thread because it is a bold statement to make.  Times they are a changing.

.

Quote from: gregoryflYes, no more than anyone should think that Adam was a sinner in our place.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: gregoryfl
Yeshua restored man to the original innocence that Adam had, free of a consciousness of sin, and we have the privilege to tell everyone what he has done for them.

The way I see it, Jesus is restoring (present tense) man. Freedom from consciousness of sin is accomplished through being free from sin in actuality. In other words, man is not restored to original innocence if still unregenerate in wicked works.

 A couple of thoughts - not extensive conclusive explanations - thoughts to consider;

without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin;

there's a clear pattern in the OT carried over into the New, of sacrifice, the shedding of blood;

Jesus' death in the NT is called sacrificial;

I don't believe just any man can always just stop using heroin (or any other sin) without the power of the Holy Spirit working within a regenerated spirit.  I don't believe it's "all" in the mind and people just need to "realize" it...it takes a miracle - the new birth.   Just turning over a new leaf won't cut it.  Still just works of the flesh. 

I'm like Laz in that I'm not ready to say "I don't believe in the substionary atonement".  If so, I think one must be extremely careful (as you've been careful to explain what it is you do believe Seth, in detail); it can be a slippery slope, and without clear explanation, people can get a very wrong idea and wander into things like "the cross wasn't necessary", "Jesus really didn't have to die", etc.  Paul talked of folks "denying the very Lord who bought them".

As Laz, I am willing to take the hell part out of it, EXCEPT, I do believe Jesus' death and resurrection, and then Him Personally applying that to my life through giving me faith to believe/trust in Him as Savior, does 1) make me His child now (miracle, grace, all Him, I can't boast) and 2) gives me the undeserved privilege of sitting with Him in heavenly places, and absolving me from a long period of kolasis anonian (not to say there won't be judgment and I won't lose unrighteous/carnal works - I will - they'll be burned)...but I don't believe anyone spiritually reborn in this life is "reserved for wrath".

So AT LEAST in those regards, I'm very willing still to say Jesus was/is my Sacrifice and Atonement - because He did and does for me things I couldn't, can't, and never will be able to do for myself.  Yes, I believe He took the sins of the whole world upon Him.  There are many nuances I don't understand, and much room for discussion and revelation.  However, spoken on the cross, was "it is finished", tetelestai, an accounting term meaning "paid in full".  He gives me HIS righteousness through the washing of His blood - my righteousness is as filthy rags.

Quotewithout the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin;

Hebrews 9:22
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Yes, remission is definitely the reason for shedding of blood. However, the question at the heart of this is, does Jesus give us his righteousness by PROXY, or THROUGH US?

By proxy suggests that God considers the unregenerate to be righteous because Christ was righteous, but that does cause some Biblical contradictions. For as John said, "be not deceived, those that doeth righteousness are righteous, even as he (God) is righteous."

To clear the conscience, he cleared away the sins committed in the past. A few scriptures come to mind, one that is a few verses back from Hebrews 9:22:

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

2 Peter 1
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Romans 3
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

When we confess our sins, they are blotted out and remembered no more. Justification has gotten confused with forgiveness. When Jesus said "it is finished" that of course does not include his resurrection, days later. Jesus was RAISED because of justification.

I don't really even like the term "justified" that the translators use because people think of it as a legalistic term. Righteousness is what the term means, and Paul is talking about it in terms of being raised with Christ.

Justified = present day walking in newness of life
Forgiveness = blotting out sins which are passed through his faithfulness to forgive when we confess.

The shedding of blood was necessary for Christ to be raised again to make righteous his believers through a walking in steps of faith of father Abraham.

Quote from: jabcata man cannot always just stop using heroin (or any other sin) without the power of the Holy Spirit working within a regenerated spirit.  I don't believe it's all in the mind and people just need to "realize" it...

Amen. A man abusing heroin is alienated in his mind from God. But, the inner cause of that abuse is the carnal mind itself. Even if getting of drugs by himself, we are all stuck with a carnal mind, which cannot know the things of God, until the Lord chooses to free us.

QuoteSo AT LEAST in those regards, I'm very willing still to say Jesus was/is my Sacrifice and Atonement

Yes me too. Jesus was treated as a criminal to take the place of the lambs that were required to atone for sin. He did this to forgive sins past, but also to save us from the wrath that is in the carnal mind. It's in God turning man over to a carnal mind to "receive in themselves the due recompense for their error " (Romans 1). That's the wrath revealed from heaven. So mankind was already under that. Jesus saves mankind by changing their minds and takes them out of the wrath they were already under. Jesus did not take upon himself the wrath of a carnal mind and death in sin. He was without sin. What he took upon himself was physical death so that he could be raised because of our justification, thereby putting away the ordinances which were against us (continually exposing our death by sin which Adam brought into the world.)

Quote from: Seth on January 08, 2014, 12:58:24 AM
Yes, remission is definitely the reason for shedding of blood. However, the question at the heart of this is, does Jesus give us his righteousness by PROXY, or THROUGH US?

By proxy suggests that God considers the unregenerate to be righteous because Christ was righteous, but that does cause some Biblical contradictions. For as John said, "be not deceived, those that doeth righteousness are righteous, even as he (God) is righteous."

I think we believe a lot of the same things, with some possible other things mixed in here and there.   :handshake:

I'll share some thoughts I have on it now, with some of this I'm still searching through and may move a little on yet :).   

It's funny.  I believe strongly in grace (unmerited favor, free gift).  I also believe strongly in obedience and works of surrender.  In fact, to my shame, I've probably spent more time focusing and struggling with works than I have recognizing grace. I DO spend time wondering exactly how it all fits together - even in my own mind - one reason I may move a little on some of it yet.    So "by proxy", no, I don't believe God just looks at the whole world, and only sees His children, "they just don't know it yet".  I believe one must have the experience of being personally given the gift of faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  HIS work in us.  I don't believe most will experience that in this lifetime, for reasons known only to God (I don't understand it).  I believe there are those reserved for wrath, there are haters of God, there are those following other pagan and/or occultic religions that are NOT saved/spiritually reborn yet (they will be) and God does not just look at them and say "oh, they're righteous already because of what Jesus did" (by proxy).  I believe some version of Acts 16:30, 31 must occur first - but here's where we may differ a little.  AT THAT POINT I believe Jesus' righteousness IS imparted, as in, the spiritual new birth occurs.  And that makes one His child, SEALED by the Holy Spirit unto that Day, and that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable".     But then another THEN   :bigGrin: - I DO believe He works His works of righteousness THROUGH us, as you said. 

One thing that puzzles me though is, why some who are given faith to believe on Him as Savior seem to grow in grace and knowledge more or less than others.  Some true believers seem to remain more carnal.  I'm reminded of Paul talking to the Corinthians, who were involved in various types of debauchery within the ecclesia.  He condemned their behavior, gave them a dressing down, said they should remove the one from their midst, not put up with it/take pleasure in it, etc...yet..he..still..called..them...saints.   

Soooo...I think it's possible some just have a "head knowledge" and profess some sort of belief, but haven't really been given the new spiritual birth, are just sort of tagging along, so then their actions and attitudes really wouldn't reveal a true inner change.

Again though, nuances, places here and there for discussion, exploration, revelation...that's just a sort of overview of some things I believe.   I won't go terribly deeply into it right now, but I've really considered the whole salvation in 3 stages;  1)of the spirit (spiritual new birth, being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior  2) of the soul ["who we are"]  ("sanctification", aka growing in grace and knowledge, walking by the Spirit rather than flesh.  Things that stay part of us rather than burned away as chaff at judgment, and we're "rewarded" for)  and 3) the body (mortal swallowed up in immortality)...

Anyway...I'll be quiet and let others talk   :happygrin:

Quote from: jabcatIt's funny.  I believe strongly in grace (unmerited favor, free gift).  I also believe strongly in obedience and works of surrender.  I DO spend time wondering exactly how it all fits together - even in my own mind - one reason I may move a little on some of it yet.

Yeah, Peter outright said that Paul's teachings could be difficult to understand. Still working it out myself. But I think talking this stuff out over the past years at Tentmaker and other places has really helped clear some of it up, not everything, but some.  I actually found a verse reconciles Grace with works of Surrender. When I saw it it just blew my MIND. It totally squared away every question I had about the Law and Grace and Works and Grace. Here it is:

Titus 2
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing (paiduo - chastening) us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

WOW! That blew my mind, especially when I found out that "instructing" us is from "paiduo" meaning to chasten. So by Grace...God chastens! He does this unto salvation, from ungodliness.

Why isn't the church teaching this? Rather, they teach this strange amalgamation of grace and Law because there is no teaching of the place that chastening unto good works Grace has. Grace is truly sufficient for all things!

Quote from: jabcatAT THAT POINT I believe Jesus' righteousness IS imparted, as in, the spiritual new birth occurs.  And that makes one His child, SEALED by the Holy Spirit unto that Day, and that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". 

Actually, I do believe this too  :laughing7:. The Calvinists call it the "Perserverance of the Saints" and I actually believe it's true, without the hell doctrine etc.

Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

So, it's all of God and the gifts and calling of God are without revocation. But Peter urges us to make our calling and election sure. Why? I believe because we don't know who the sons of God are (Romans 8 talks about how all creation is waiting to have it revealed). We don't have perfect knowledge of each other or ourselves....so we run the race. We make our election sure.

That creates dependance on God. I say, I am part of the elect....LORD WILLING. No way am I going to make blanket statements like Peter. That's hard medicine he got for trusting himself too much.

Quote from: jabcatOne thing that puzzles me though is, why some who are given faith to believe on Him as Savior seem to grow in grace and knowledge more or less than others.  Some true believers seem to remain more carnal.  I'm reminded of Paul talking to the Corinthians, who were involved in various types of debauchery within the ecclesia.  He condemned their behavior, gave them a dressing down, said they should remove the one from their midst, not put up with it/take pleasure in it, etc...yet..he..still..called..them...saints.   

Jesus said many false prophets will deceive many and, if it were possible, the very elect. That's an interesting term: the VERY elect. I think we just don't know who they are yet. If we did, we wouldn't need to run the race, but we very much do. Paul said he had a crown waiting for him because he had been faithful. But he also taught God's sovereignty. I think where the rubber meets the road is in our lack of perfect knowledge compared to God's total sovereignty

Quote from: jabcatAnyway...I'll be quiet and let others talk   

I always love talking to you.

 :thumbsup:   :gimmefive:

I read a line that made me laugh and it made the Grace teaching really stick

Here is what God does by Grace: A spiritual spanking whenever you need it, free of charge, unmerited favor, come back for more....

:laugh:

Quote from: jabcat on January 08, 2014, 01:28:18 AM
Anyway...I'll be quiet and let others talk   :happygrin:

Nice.  I found Christ through Christianity.  I developed, and maintained a relationship with Christ for over two decades.  My faith changed in many ways as I learned more.  Christ led me away from some doctrines and into others.  The relationship deepened through the years, and I eventually found Tentmaker.org several years ago.  UR blew my mind.  Loved it.  Use to be a guy/girl here named Pennrod I think.  Is Pennrod still around?

Anyhows eventually I started questioning blood atonement among other things.  I questioned it to the point that I became willing to deny it as anything that God would have anything to do with.  I knew full well that this was apostasy but still felt compelled in that direction. I am now agnostic about things concerning the person of Jesus Christ.  I still maintain my relationship with God.  It has not changed.  My conclusion is that Christianity is a way to God.  God does not care about the doctrines that we hold or don't hold.  Paul cared......God does not.

.

 Freedom from consciousness of sin is accomplished through being free from sin in actuality. In other words, man is not restored to original innocence if still unregenerate in wicked works.

To say you are without sin, means you have already died.
Yet you get up every morning.

There is nothing that you do less today (sin) than you did the day before.
By which you can truly convince yourself, that you are innocent.

The battle is for your mind.
The battle to ignore, the observations of your mind as it battles sin and keeps score..
The battle is  to believe that the battle with sin is an illusion.

God no longer relates to you through your sin score (good or bad ).
Jesus declares us innocent the spirit invading or mind with a vision of our new innocence l 

May God grant this vision so the blind may see.

Quote from: dajomaco on January 10, 2014, 12:14:00 AM
To say you are without sin, means you have already died.
Yet you get up every morning.

I didn't say being "without" sin. I said, freedom FROM sin. Those are two different concepts. Sin is in the flesh and wars against LOVE.

Freedom from sin is freedom to love the way Christ loves without interruption of the flesh.

Quote from: dajomacoGod no longer relates to you through your sin score (good or bad ).

I didn't say God is keeping score. God is not accepting the old pot.


Jeremiah 18
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The score keeping of the Law did not make new pots, only revealed the marred condition of the old pot. God makes new vessels by breaking the bond of sin in the mind, making us free to Love the way Christ loves, not of ourselves, but of God.

Quote from: dajomacoThe battle is  to believe that the battle with sin is an illusion.

Hebrews 12
4You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
           
"MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
            NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

      6FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
            AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Man is carnally minded ad to be carnally minded is death.

Be ye therefore renewed in the Spirit of your mind.

God gave the law to make sin manifest, so man could see it, and chose Life.

While in my mind I agree with the law, that it is good, another law is working in my members. Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

God gave His Son to die, so that all who die with Him, could be raised to walk in newness of life by the Spirit of resurrection.

I have died, and the life I live i the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God who died for me, that I might live in Him


As the serpent was raised up in the wilderness so that all who look upon it might be healed of the poisonous bite of the serpent(to be carnally minded is death)

So also Christ was lifted up so that all who look upon Him, Christ crucified, can be set free from the law of sin and death, having their minds captured by the love of God and transformed by the Spirit.

Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

Amen Eaglesway. And in that above description, I don't see any necessity for the idea of penal substitution and proxy righteousness. Those things serve the Hell doctrine very well, but don't seem to really fit much into the concept of salvation from "dead in Adam" unto salvation through "alive in Christ."

Not to say I don't think Christ literally died on the cross, I very much do. Only to say, it does not seem to fit the paradigm that Jesus took a punishment in our place so that we would not have to experience the punishment. If the judgment is death via the carnal mind, Jesus did not experience that punishment so that we would not have to. See what I mean? He experienced a physical death so that we, through faith, could be rescued from our spiritual death.

True Penal Substitution in this case would be: Jesus Christ became dead in Adam so that would not be dead in Adam. But death in Adam is to be sinful in the mind and dark in the heart which I don't attribute to Christ.

It seems to me, Christ took the place of the lambs (that's the substitution) for our sake and for our sins, so that he could satisfy the Law (one sacrifice of all time), take it down as the barrier between God and man, and then give man spiritual life through faith by his resurrected Life.

Do you see what I mean? I think the proxy righteousness that I see in UR is a holdover from a Penal Substitution doctrine that I don't think holds water anymore, at least with me.

I'm in the process of praying about this and studying it out, but briefly, IMO, if we don't have Christ's righteousness (right standing) "by proxy", then we don't have it.  Because none of our works, goodness, righteousness etc. are adequate, nor can our right standing be earned - no matter how much we take up our cross, die to ourselves, etc., etc.  Because although those things are about obedience, sonship, overcoming, growing in Him, etc., I don't believe those things give us righteousness.  I believe the atonement of Jesus' death on the cross and that being applied to our lives through the gift of faith to believe on His name is what brings us righteousness, according to scripture.  So how that exactly fits or not with what's being discussed as "substitutionary atonement", I'm not sure.  I do think it's something to not be approached lightly (actually, with fear and trembling).   :2c:

Well I see a difference between "by proxy" vs "through us"

He does the righteous works THROUGH us which is what makes us Christ's workmanship and not of our own righteousness. By proxy means that God "cannot see our sin" that we do after belief in Christ because he sees the righteous act Christ did at the cross. I think the scripture is very clear that not only can God see our sin, he is prompt in delivering the chastening we need when we need it.

Proxy means a representative stand-in. To ETers it means God cannot now beat you up because Christ is the stand-in. It's the old Father=Angry but Jesus=Nice model. The "through us" model is where Christ indeed substitutes his own works, but does it through us daily, not as a stand-in to get us into Heaven and past the Father's angry glare. See what I mean?

I was typing this so I'll post it, then try to respond to your post Seth.  :)


Another 2 cents...I do understand how dismissing the concept of eternal torment causes the need to re-examine things from some different angles, rethinking some things.  However, I believe we can go too far then the other way, dismissing other things that are still vital, though perhaps not in exactly the same way as thought of before, i.e., "escaping eternal hell".  Still, things like salvation by grace through belief on Jesus, and other necessities of the faith, still need to fit the scripture test and not just our new "no hell" paradigm. 

Quote from: jabcat on January 11, 2014, 02:02:52 AM
Still, things like salvation by grace through belief on Jesus, and other necessities of the faith, still need to fit the scripture test and not just our new "no hell" paradigm. 

Right! Salvation from death in Adam by Grace which "chastening (scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world...." (Titus 2:11)

That's salvation by Grace. Salvation by Grace does not mean Jesus being the nice guy to appease a really angry Father so that the Father does not whip us. Jesus and the Father are one. They are of the same temperament. The only reason for the Penal Substitution model is to appease an angry God.

But the wrath of God is already in the world: death in Sin. It's been going on since Adam. The Father is saving his creation through Christ by giving us the Spirit so that Christ may work through us the righteous works which save us from "this untoward generation."

Take a look at Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. They tried to trick God and they died for it. Works led to death (that is symbolic). Why didn't they appeal to Christ's sacrifice on the cross if they were believers? Works of death lead to death for the sting of death is sin.

ETers would explain this by saying, yes they died but they didn't go to Hell, because they were saved by Grace. James, you and I know that hell does not exist. Now what?

I gues I would say I see it in a more organic way. Our righteousness is not by proxy, it is by transmission. To be cut out of one vine and grafted into another is an exchange of the nature of the life now flowing through the branch. For me the details of the transaction are less important.

But as I see it there is a substitutionary payment that allows for the transplant, initially. In my opinion, Jesus fulfilled the law in life, he did not have to die. The death He payed paved the way for my being grafted into the new vine. The righteousness that flows thru me is transmitted from the root of the new vine- rooted and grounded in love.

The transaction is that the one who owned me(the law) was payed in full by Jesus, so, as long as I am willing to die with Him, that which held me back from being grafted in is removed, and I can live with Him.

Quote from: eaglesway on January 11, 2014, 02:22:08 AM
I gues I would say I see it in a more organic way. Our righteousness is not by proxy, it is by transmission. To be cut out of one vine and grafted into another is an exchange of the nature of the life now flowing through the branch. For me the details of the transaction are less important.

But as I see it there is a substitutionary payment that allows for the transplant, initially. In my opinion, Jesus fulfilled the law in life, he did not have to die. The death He payed paved the way for my being grafted into the new vine. The righteousness that flows thru me is transmitted from the root of the new vine- rooted and grounded in love.

The transaction is that the one who owned me(the law) was payed in full by Jesus, so, as long as I am willing to die with Him, that which held me back from being grafted in is removed, and I can live with Him.

YES! Especially the bolded part. Jesus did not die so that we would not have to. He died so that we could pick up cross and follow him to death, so that we could be freed from death in sin.

Jesus did not become dead in Adam. He did not become a sinner so that he could save sinners because that is the true wrath of God, to be turned over to a wicked mind. He became a sin offering who knew no sin. He was spotless when we were not, so that he could experience a PHYSICAL death so as to save us from spiritual death.

It's not a mirror/mirror penal substitution. Not even ETers believe in a perfect mirror penal substitution when you really press them on it: did Jesus burn in hell forever to save people from burning in hell forever? Um, no.

Quote from: Seth on January 11, 2014, 01:59:05 AM
Well I see a difference between "by proxy" vs "through us"

He does the righteous works THROUGH us which is what makes us Christ's workmanship and not of our own righteousness. By proxy means that God "cannot see our sin" that we do after belief in Christ because he sees the righteous act Christ did at the cross. I think the scripture is very clear that not only can God see our sin, he is prompt in delivering the chastening we need when we need it.

Proxy means a representative stand-in. To ETers it means God cannot now beat you up because Christ is the stand-in. It's the old Father=Angry but Jesus=Nice model. The "through us" model is where Christ indeed substitutes his own works, but does it through us daily, not as a stand-in to get us into Heaven and past the Father's angry glare. See what I mean?

Hmmm...I wonder if either way, "by proxy" or "through us", does that actually dispel or confirm "penal substitution"...   I may see it as parts of both, not either/or.  I would also be able to leave out some of the parameters, such as Father angry, Jesus nice, and God not being able to beat us now.  So maybe it's not that the only reason for penal substitution is that Father was angry, but rather, Father requires certain things.  For me, it goes down to things like, receiving Him makes us His child and saves us from the power of sin over our lives, and that can't occur without His gift.  I think of things, whatever label one calls it, like;  Without what He did by His death and resurrection, the Lamb slain, the perfect sacrifice;  which was paying the legal penalty (however that might be exactly scripturally explained - by His using the legal/business transaction term "it is finished", i.e., "paid in full) and then sealing us with His Holy Spirit of Promise (another legal transaction - assurance), I could not attain anything before Him.  So yes, He has to both give that to me, and, then He does work it through me.    Again, I'm examining this, but I think absolute statements should absolutely be scripturally sound (all relevant scrips, all scrips reconciling), otherwise we're "leaning, believing, wondering", etc... I'm looking at the wider issue, but sure won't say Christ's sacrifice for my sins, Him doing what I cannot do for myself, is unnecessary.  Even Him working through me, is Him, not me.  Not sure where A and Sapp. fit into this, except God works His will and good pleasure, and all fits His purpose.  Gotta go for right now, got some work things to do, but maybe someone else will weigh in.  Blessings.

Quote from: jabcatHmmm...I wonder if either way, "by proxy" or "through us", does that actually dispel or confirm "penal substitution"...   I may see it as parts of both, not either/or.  I would also be able to leave out some of the parameters, such as Father angry, Jesus nice, and God not being able to beat us now.  So maybe it's not that the only reason for penal substitution is that Father was angry, but rather, Father requires certain things. 

Right, and here is where I am making the distinction between ET and UR. The ET group is saying that LOVE is not needed to be saved, only faith. Saved from what? Hell. But if the paradigm of salvation has shifted from "Hell" to "death in Sin" we can see that Love is actually still required.  God has actually not changed that requirement. You cannot love someone if you do works of iniquity against them. That is why James says: "you see that man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

When God gave the Law he said "Choose life" Jesus died so that we could actually attain Life. Since the Law could not give it to us, Jesus satisfied it's requirement and gave his resurrected Life unto salvation. Reconciled by death, but how much more so, having been reconciled, shall we be saved though his Life.

Quote from: Seth on January 11, 2014, 02:27:16 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on January 11, 2014, 02:22:08 AM
I gues I would say I see it in a more organic way. Our righteousness is not by proxy, it is by transmission. To be cut out of one vine and grafted into another is an exchange of the nature of the life now flowing through the branch. For me the details of the transaction are less important.

But as I see it there is a substitutionary payment that allows for the transplant, initially. In my opinion, Jesus fulfilled the law in life, he did not have to die. The death He payed paved the way for my being grafted into the new vine. The righteousness that flows thru me is transmitted from the root of the new vine- rooted and grounded in love.

The transaction is that the one who owned me(the law) was payed in full by Jesus, so, as long as I am willing to die with Him, that which held me back from being grafted in is removed, and I can live with Him.

YES! Especially the bolded part. Jesus did not die so that we would not have to. He died so that we could pick up cross and follow him to death, so that we could be freed from death in sin.

Jesus did not become dead in Adam. He did not become a sinner so that he could save sinners because that is the true wrath of God, to be turned over to a wicked mind. He became a sin offering who knew no sin. He was spotless when we were not, so that he could experience a PHYSICAL death so as to save us from spiritual death.

It's not a mirror/mirror penal substitution. Not even ETers believe in a perfect mirror penal substitution when you really press them on it: did Jesus burn in hell forever to save people from burning in hell forever? Um, no.

2 Corinthians 5:21
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Not trying to put you on the spot, but how do you explain this verse?

I think in the Romans 6 sense that he died a literal death to put away sin in the flesh even though he was righteous in his mind. He became sin....who knew no sin. He did not literally become a sinner or have a carnal mind or have a mind that was at emnity with God in order to save those who did. in other words, he did not become dead in Adam in order to save those who are dead in Adam. It was a type and shadow of our salvation: physical cross equals dying to sin. Christ was without sin and therefore already dead to sin in his mind at his birth because he was born of God and not of man.

Eaglesway, think about the sheep in the OT who died for the sins of the Israelites. They knew no sin. They were animals. Neutral. But the Israelites transferred their sin ceremoniously to the sheep, then either sent them out to the wilderness, or killed them. In that way, the sheep became sin. Indeed, when you look at the many offering commandments in the OT, it does not say "bring a sin offering" it said "bring your sin." The word sin doubled for both sin and sin-offering.

All this was type/shadow. Christ in the flesh: we know him after the flesh no longer.

His death saved nobody, it reconciled by putting away the requirements of the Law to kill physical sheep. His LIVE saves. Nothing fleshy can save anyone from sin. Only the SPIRIT.

When Christ became sin, it was a type and shadow becoming clearer. Romans 6 explains the reality in the Spirit: physical cross = death to sin. Physical resurrection = newness of life.

Quote from: dajomaco on January 10, 2014, 12:14:00 AM
To say you are without sin, means you have already died.
Yet you get up every morning.

There is nothing that you do less today (sin) than you did the day before.
By which you can truly convince yourself, that you are innocent.

The battle is for your mind.
The battle to ignore, the observations of your mind as it battles sin and keeps score..
The battle is  to believe that the battle with sin is an illusion.

God no longer relates to you through your sin score (good or bad ).
Jesus declares us innocent the spirit invading or mind with a vision of our new innocence l 

May God grant this vision so the blind may see.

Did God ever relate to us through our sin?  Did God ever hold sin against us?  Perfection is always with us.  It always has been.  It never left us.  I like to call it omnipresence.  Omnipresence is always with us even in our sin.

God does not require a sacrifice for sin.  Man decided that a sacrifice for sin was in order.  This line of thinking is what makes me apostate. 

Though I know that I am apostate, I still have the perfection within.  I still renew my mind to that perfection, and no sacrifice is required.  How do I know that I am accepted?  The spirit bears witness.  The same spirit that was with me when I claimed the sacrifice has been with me since I renounced the need for a sacrifice.  Heal me.

.

ed, I know from things you've said in the past that you currently don't care;  but I want to at least note that your thoughts are contrary to the scriptures as a whole.

Taking into account some things you've said;  God doesn't require blood;  you pay attention to the scriptures you've decided are true;  everyone's perfect, perfection never left; you're "agnostic" about Jesus, and there didn't need to be a sacrifice.

I understand in your own mind, you can just say "it doesn't matter what these scriptures say, I believe what I believe".  So I won't argue that point, although I trust you have read the bottom of this post  http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/saved-from-what/msg167065/#msg167065.    I will suggest your thoughts are based on your thoughts, rather than the Word of God, and I'd like to post the relevant scriptures;


Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

I John 2:2  And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

Romans 5:19  for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners."

Rom. 3:10-12: "As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one."

2 Pet. 2:1; "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

 

Respectfully Ed, I disagree. I believe Jesus was sacrificed. At the core of the creation(Alpha) He was sacrificed. His sacrifice is the door through which we enter the heart of God, whose way of showing us what love is, was sacrifice. This demonstration of love is the lighthouse to which every being who ever lived will eventually be gathered into one(Omega)- untill God is ALL IN ALL, or, until all are one in God.

Where I do agree with you is this. There is no longer any need for sacrifice. This is because Jesus, through whom God created all things, was sacrificed once, for all.

Everyone who was created through Him will one day rejoice over that sacrifice, made once for all.

"No greater love has a man than this, than to lay down his life for a friend."

Peace.

I just want to clarify on this thread that my purpose was not in any way to deny that Christ's death on the Cross did happen in a real, and literal way, and that it was sanctioned and planned by God that he shed his literal blood as a sacrifice for the sins of the World. I really don't want this thread to turn into that, so I respectfully submit to you that when you bring that to the table on this particular thread, it is essentially a hijack. No offense intended by that.

I want to note that Penal Substitution is actually an interpretation that originated with Calvinism. It wasn't the prevailing interpretation before that. This thread is all about whether or not the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is relevant if Hell does not exist. I will define the doctrine here:

Wikipedia entry on Penal Substitution (page link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution))
Penal substitution (sometimes, esp. in older writings, called forensic theory) is a theory of the atonement within Christian theology, developed with the Reformed tradition (Calvinism). It argues that Christ, by his own sacrificial choice, was punished (penalised) in the place of sinners (substitution), thus satisfying the demands of justice so God can justly forgive the sins.

I believe that Calvin's view still holds sway in UR to a large degree. I have a problem with the term "in the place of sinners." That's where the idea of PROXY righteousness comes from which causes mega confusion with the scripture. If we don't believe in Hell, as UR believers, then what place is he taking? As far as I know the Law did not demand physical death for EVERY precept broken, only some. But the result of breaking the Law is indeed SPIRITUAL death for all.

So Christ became the Lamb to die a literal death, in order to save us from our spiritual death (salvation) putting away the Law in the process (reconciliation).

For the above Wikipedia description to work, Christ would have to become a sinner in our place, literally a sinner, dead in Adam, carnal minded, wicked worker. Then, to follow through, with proxy righteousness God would see Jesus's righteousness in dying for our sin in our place so that he could consider us alive in Christ even though we are actually dead in Adam. It simply does not work in the scripture, the whole thing falls flat, to me anyway.

I guess the closest I would say to what I am saying was the idea held long before Calvin: The Moral Influence View (with the important caveat that Hell is not a factor):

The moral influence doctrine of atonement is typically taught within a paradigm of salvation which focuses on positive moral change as the core of Christianity. God is depicted as concerned with whether a person's inner character is good or evil (where 'good' refers primarily to unselfish love toward others). In this system, God works to bring positive moral change within the hearts of individuals and to transform societies to become more loving.

He acted to bring such change through the teachings of the Old Testament Law, the Jewish Prophets, and the teaching and example of Jesus. The inspiring power of Jesus' martyrdom and subsequent resurrection are also often cited as catalysts for moral change. Many holding a moral influence view also believe that the Holy Spirit works to help people toward moral change. In the moral influence view, it is generally believed that God will judge the souls of the dead in the afterlife based on their moral character, attested to by their conduct (a belief that many Evangelical Protestants reject).

Evangelicals reject that. Yet Christ says "Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord....and .... away from me you who work iniquity...."

Quote from: Seth on January 11, 2014, 02:49:33 AM
I think in the Romans 6 sense that he died a literal death to put away sin in the flesh even though he was righteous in his mind. He became sin....who knew no sin. He did not literally become a sinner or have a carnal mind or have a mind that was at emnity with God in order to save those who did. in other words, he did not become dead in Adam in order to save those who are dead in Adam. It was a type and shadow of our salvation: physical cross equals dying to sin. Christ was without sin and therefore already dead to sin in his mind at his birth because he was born of God and not of man.

I agree with that.

Quote from: Seth on January 11, 2014, 07:12:15 AM
I just want to clarify on this thread that my purpose was not in any way to deny that Christ's death on the Cross did happen in a real, and literal way, and that it was sanctioned and planned by God that he shed his literal blood as a sacrifice for the sins of the World. I really don't want this thread to turn into that, so I respectfully submit to you that when you bring that to the table on this particular thread, it is essentially a hijack. No offense intended by that.

Thanks for the clarification.  I think the whole idea of "I don't believe in penal substitution" can, in some folks' mind (maybe even many just passing through who don't really dig into it) conjure up all sorts of ideas.    You just stressed above that you're not saying there's no need for the blood, that Jesus wasn't and isn't our sacrifice, the Lamb without spot and blemish slain from the foundation of the world.   You're not saying the cross wasn't necessary,  that we can make it on our own works or on our own righteousness, or that Jesus can be bypassed somehow.      I doubt if anyone at any time has every FULLY understood every reason and every outcome of all those things.  But you are still saying they're scriptural, however you're exploring that there are some differences in how you understand some of those reasons and outcomes, from what many in Christendom teach.  Close?

I'm personally looking at it, and though I think you and I still have some differing views on some details, I think we're pretty solid on the foundational things mentioned above.  Correct any of this if I'm mistaken.  Blessings.

Not just close: I would say exactly. I'm thing of changing the title of the thread to something less easily misunderstood. Thinking of what could be better

Awesome.   :thumbsup: 

Done. I hope that makes a better title

Really like it..should be able to explore things better now without too many undue assumptions.

Quote from: jabcat on January 11, 2014, 04:17:57 AM
  I will suggest your thoughts are based on your thoughts, rather than the Word of God, and I'd like to post the relevant scriptures;

I am thankful for Tentmaker.org and really like that the Universalist perspective is shown to be completely Biblical.  I use the site to refresh myself on it, and share with those who have need of salvation from sectarian doctrine.

Christianity has need of it. 

I respect Christianity because it is my roots.  I gained what I could from it.  It is not my desire to trash it.  You guys are going deep in this thread without falling off the edge.  It is a fine line.  Thanks for letting me post here. I need to be more careful to not post from a place of pride or hurt.  Rock on!

Quote from: Seth on January 11, 2014, 07:12:15 AM
This thread is all about whether or not the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is relevant if Hell does not exist.

:thumbsup:

The entire doctrine of Jesus being a substitute is from hell[if there were such a thing/place]. But of course this is just an opinion :Peace2: I find that man's theologies take words from man's understanding and then use those words[and man's definition] to then create doctrines which give birth to denominations[which separate] then he is persuaded to join the one that gives him the most peace to his thinking.
The word substitute, like rapture, and trinity are not found in the Bible, for research,(we could ad the words hell and eternity as well) and so without man's speculation, assumption, definition, and his interpretation, we find that we miss the mark. Again  :Peace2:

I agree Micah7:9. John Calvin's whole idea for the "satisfy God's holy wrath" doctrine is because he thought that the idea behind the Gospel is to sneak people into Heaven by proxy righteousness. This is why Evangelicals have such a hard time with James: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" ooops. Justified how? As he said in James 1, "from all moral filth."

James 1
19 This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.

That is what James was talking about with works that save your souls...from the remains of wickedness. Addicted to drugs? Stop doing it. Murdering people? Stop. Addicted to porn? Stop. Stopping is a work, and James is saying Faith must be completed by Works or there is no salvation...from the remains of wickedness.

But if you don't stop doing those things, don't think you are still justified before God because faith. Faith in the Hebrew Bible is a matter of belief+obedience (http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/the-hebrew-word-for-faith-(and-so-it-was-fulfilled-)/msg166761/#msg166761).

None of this jibes with Calvin's substitution to appease an angry God to sneak us into Heaven doctrine. They have SUCH a hard time explaining the book of James. I have seen some wacky explanations, but all you have to do is look at the context.

I would say that if Jesus was a substitute it was for the lambs of the OT. Israelites were placing the wrath of the Law upon the lambs to atone for their sin. Jesus took their place to get rid of the Law and remove the dividing wall between man and God.

This covers laws also which did not require literal, physical death, and certainly death was not required for Gentiles, because they were not under the Law in the first place. So then I would ask, what place did Christ take for the Gentiles?

From what I see the kind of punishment that ALL men share alike, whether Jew or Gentile, is spiritual death. The judgment that Jesus says that all men are under is this one:

John 3
18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Anyone who rejects Christ remains in that judgment (judged already). And if that is the judgment, and Jesus "takes the place of sinners" that means Christ would have to literally be placed into that judgment. I don't believe that's what happened. THIS is the judgment that applies to ALL men, Jew or Gentile. This is what Christ died for, to take people out of this judgment. He was treated as a criminal without being one, so that he could save actual criminals through his Life.


And the solution for the "deeds were evil."

John 3
21"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

That's the transmission that Eaglesway was talking about earlier. Worked in God....through his faithful.

I won't argue about it, folks can believe how they're led to believe on it.  I'm not arguing for Reformed, Catholic, or ET doctrine.  As said earlier, I also believe in obedience, surrender, and empowerment by God that leads to His works of righteousness through a believer.   :thumbsup:  However, I definitely do believe the initial things described here -John 1:12  "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God", and Eph. 2:8  "by grace you HAVE BEEN saved, not of works..",   have nothing to do with our works.  It's a gift of God.  Then good works are a result of the renewed, surrendered life - Christ working through the person He has miraculously made His child.

Michael Houdman addresses some of the details better than me...I've edited it for brevity and clarity for this discussion, pardon the paste.  But again, he says what I believe better than I can.  Again, no ongoing argument, just stating how I personally see it.  Blessings. 


"The context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

James and Paul seem to be using the word "justified" in different context/meaning. In Romans 3:28  Paul is using the word justified to mean "declared righteous by God." Paul is speaking of God's legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ's righteousness is applied to our account.   On the other hand, James is using the word justified to mean "being demonstrated and proven."

The NLT translation of James 2:24 reads, "So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone". The entire James 2:14-26 passage is about proving the genuineness of your faith by what you do. A genuine salvation experience by faith in Jesus Christ will inevitably result in good works (Ephesians 2:10). The works are the demonstration and proof of faith (James 2:18). A faith without works is useless (James 2:20) and dead (James 2:17); in other words, it is not true faith at all. Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith will never be alone.

Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone. John 3:16 declares that salvation is given to "whoever believes in Him." Acts 16:31 proclaims, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith." See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other scriptures could be referenced in addition to these.


Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works." - M. Houdman


P.S.  I also do believe that things either standing or burning in His prescence have to do with surrender, obedience, and resultant "good works" (making choices in accord with His will and looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith).   Also rewards and positions of kingdom service enter in.  But I believe our own righteousness and efforts, without God working them through us (empowering us, much of it miraculous because we can't do it ourselves) will never measure up.  That's why we need His righteousness applied to us.  He PURCHASED us.  That means something.  Blessings again.

The argument is nullified, "This thread is all about whether or not the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is relevant if Hell does not exist...." hell, as the basis for argument does not exist. :dsunny:

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 12, 2014, 05:12:46 AM
The argument is nullified, "This thread is all about whether or not the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is relevant if Hell does not exist...." hell, as the basis for argument does not exist. :dsunny:

True micah  lol...i'm not even POSITIVE we're actually on topic - YET of Seth's OP intentions... :punish:     :bigGrin:

I've said my main piece...how 'bout somebody new jumping in?   :dsunny:

Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2014, 05:16:32 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 12, 2014, 05:12:46 AM
The argument is nullified, "This thread is all about whether or not the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is relevant if Hell does not exist...." hell, as the basis for argument does not exist. :dsunny:

True micah  lol...i'm not even POSITIVE we're actually on topic - YET of Seth's OP intentions... :punish:     :bigGrin:

I've said my main piece...how 'bout somebody new jumping in?   :dsunny:

You know, to me, main things;  Jesus, Son of God, Savior of the world.  The Lamb that was slain to save us.  His Spirit abiding within.  He saves and sustains me because I can't.  God becoming All in All...  Amen?   :handshake:      :msealed:

Wow Jab, you are awesome, only cause He gave you the awesomeness......still....
If the rest, who ever they maybe, who believe, who truly believe can or will except your words here, " He saves and sustains me because I can't." BECAUSE I CAN'T there it is, from the blackest of humans to the thought pure human who has no habits or addictions or vices, HE, JESUS SAVES(MAKES WHOLE/HEALS) AND SUSTAINS EACH INDIVIDUAL(me) for His time, BECAUSE I CAN'T!!!!
Man I'm in love and over flowing all over again! :dsunny:

Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2014, 05:20:37 AM

Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2014, 05:16:32 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 12, 2014, 05:12:46 AM
The argument is nullified, "This thread is all about whether or not the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is relevant if Hell does not exist...." hell, as the basis for argument does not exist. :dsunny:

True micah  lol...i'm not even POSITIVE we're actually on topic - YET of Seth's OP intentions... :punish:     :bigGrin:

I've said my main piece...how 'bout somebody new jumping in?   :dsunny:

You know, to me, main things;  Jesus, Son of God, Savior of the world.  The Lamb that was slain to save us.  His Spirit abiding within.  He saves and sustains me because I can't.  God becoming All in All...  Amen?   :handshake:      :msealed:

Re: ..how 'bout somebody NEW jumping in?

I'm not New, I'm OLD -- will not change my thoughts, my prayers, my hopes about the main things that you listed. 

And what is your point? The Atonement of Jesus Christ is real but the fabled hell has no basis. There can be no debate or discussion if half of the argument does not exist. :dsunny:

Amen anna (not amen you're old, but amen believing in those basics of the faith :).   

(micah I think she's just saying she is solid in her beliefs about the "main things" listed   :2c: ... also,, thanks for your kind words, and it blessed me that you were blessed :)

Anna, old is not bad, I'm old in the human realm, but with the youth of knowing Jesus loves me, for what ever His reasons, I will age by His will. Should I have cast a shadow about your youth I apologize I meant no offence.
Believe me there is always somebody "new" jumping in, not to worry. :dsunny:

hi James, I totally agree on all the basic points that you just raised. No problem there. I am not in a position to reply to your above post in greater detail but I will try it later on maybe on Sunday night. I do want to observe that James literally said that man is "saved by works and not by faith alone". Martin Luther was the one who said that man is saved by faith alone but that faith is never alone. I believe we are not saved by faith alone but by his LIFE.

you and I have spoken in the past about how salvation is about the miracle not the mental realization or the mental belief. It has to be by his life, by the Spirit, not by faith alone. The Spirit comes to us by faith alone but it's the spirit that actually does the saving work, not "faith alone". in fact the term faith alone does not appear in the Bible except once by James  to say that "we are saved by works and not by faith alone".. we did not earn that spirit by works of the law which I believe is Paul's point in Romans 4. But after we do have the spirit we are to work obedience to save us from trespasses and sin which I believe is James's point. They are both talking about different kinds of works. Paul is talking about works of the law which do not save. James is talking about works of obedience according to the Holy Spirit which does save us from the "moral filth" of "this wicked generation". I am not sure where credited righteousness, or as I have put it proxy righteousness fits in with all that.

Paul literally says also we are saved not by faith alone but "by grace through faith."I have observed in the past that Titus 2 Scripture which says that grace chastises unto good works and James says that good works save us from trespasses because when we are doing good works we are not doing the trespasses. Which I believe is common sense if you really think about it. If we are doing acts of love then we are not doing acts of hate. If we see a brother who is cold and we say we have faith but do not give him a blanket then we are not saved by faith alone because that withholding is essentially a work of iniquity against our brother by keeping him in the cold. Therefore we have not been saved from trespasses in that case, since we are still trespassing against love. I feel like this really does make common sense.

More later when I get a chance

if I were to simplify the difference between Paul and James I would put it this way:

a) We cannot work for the Holy Spirit as a wage earned via the law (Paul's point)
b) when the Spirit does come by faith, works follow unto salvation from transgressions and sin (James' point)


What I am wondering is how does the idea of righteousness credited to our account help anything towards salvation from sin and transgression? What good does it do? What place does it have the above paradigm?

I don't think credited righteousness to our account is necessary for God to forgive us. I think John Calvin thought it was in order to reconcile what he saw was a seemingly irreconcilable contrast between grace and wrath. I believe all that is needed to bring forgiveness for sins committed in the Old Covenant was a lamb and Jesus was that lamb. But the idea of credited righteousness to an account seems to work against the idea of being saved from sins and transgressions themselves.

if Jesus Christ has credited His righteousness to our account then what need do we have of being saved from transgressions? That is what I cannot reconcile.

I think forgiveness and faith are separate issues. All were forgiven at the cross (Father forgive them they don't know what they are doing). Some have been given a measure of faith with which to experience the benefit of that forgiveness, fellowship in the love of God, and extend it to others. The evidence of that faith is the consciousness of forgiveness bearing the fruits of restored fellowship with God, among which are manifestations of "faith working through love". Thes are the works of which James spoke, not the dead works of the law, or self-righteousness, concerning which Paul was speaking(as Seth pointed out).

I think that Christians often forget, in their theology, that Paul said, "These three abide, faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love."

Love works as a freely given gift for the recipient of its generosity with no consideration of reward or righteousness.

Grace is God's love poured upon us and working in us.
Faith is the medium within which grace is received and love is expressed in our ways and our works.
The works of faith that God regards are the works "prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them"- expressions of love received by grace and manifesting in faith, which is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast.

IMO, The secret of gold, silver and precious stone....works that will stand the fire and remain upon the foundation(love) and be carried through with the worker for a reward, are the works that sprang forth from a heart of love, without regard for the reward. Works that were given freely and spontaneously, even as the Father gives.

Love is the evidence of faith, not vice versa.

According to Paul it is possible to have great faith, but not walk in love AT ALL.

Is it possible someone could have great love but be lacking in faith?

Only God knows the answer to that question. I think yes, but who am I?

"Who has known the mind of the Lord (nobody :)
Who has been His counselor (nobody :)
Who has given to Him that He should repay (nobody :)
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things(faith working thru love) to whom be the glory(alone) through the ages and beyond, Amen" :o)

We were prepared as a kind of firstfruits of His (new)creation(James), that we might be to "the praise of the glory of His grace"(Paul), a pure lump of dough leavened not with the leaven of the Pharisees(Beware!), but with the leaven of His love......that is the kingdom of God coming near! (Jesus) :o) peace.

"The Meaning Of Christ's Atonement For Sin Without Hell" the whole question is an oxymoron, do you,  who ask the question believe in hell? If not, why do you pursue the line of questioning? You have based your query on the idea there is such a thing as hell. Finding debate, discussion, and debate on denominational offerings of a belief of what "they"have established, is but a whirlwind. :dsunny:

no I do not believe in hell.this in itself leads to the question of how well my former doctrine fits in what the scriptures teach about the atonement. I used to believe that Jesus died to credit my account with his righteousness when I have none so that he could get me into heaven. Since I no longer believe in hell I need to reexamine that. What I now believe is consistent with Scripture is not the Christ has credited righteousness into my account, but rather he died as a lamb to put away the law so that he could save people from their own transgressions and sin. If Christ credited my account with his own righteousness this becomes an impossibility because I would have no transgression in the eyes of the Lord therefore he would see nothing to save me from. Since I know that's not true, I am seeking to reconcile the idea of Atonement with the fact that there is no hell and that Christ came to save people from sin itself and transgression itself.

The righteousnessness credit to our account idea usually takes the idea of works out of the equation regarding salvation but that cannot be reconciled with the book of James it just simply cannot.

Our own works cannot earn us the Holy Spirit but the spirit can give us his good works to save us from sin and transgression and that is what I believe James is talking about

HE is doing the reconciling, not me or you.
"Since I no longer believe in hell I need to reexamine that. " Why? Just what are you re-examinating if there was nothing there anyway, man's doctrine?
Jesus died to take away the sin of the world(John 1:29) There is the atonement, why do we complicate it.
If hell is man's doctrine and not scripture why do you even care?

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 13, 2014, 06:42:22 AM
HE is doing the reconciling, not me or you.
"Since I no longer believe in hell I need to reexamine that. " Why? Just what are you re-examinating if there was nothing there anyway, man's doctrine?

I am re-examining the concept/doctrine of Penal Substitution insofar as it has created the idea that works cannot save people, or have nothing to do with salvation, and how it created the "faith alone" doctrine.

For example, I want to address Ephesians 2:8-9 by examining some context.

Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But look at the next verse...

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

That last verse is very telling, because Paul first says that Grace is a gift of God not of works. What he means is that we did not work to ATTAIN grace, but we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works which save us from our former darkness.

James is saying that THOSE good works save Christ's faithful from abiding in sin and transgressions.

My point in this thread is that I am challenging the notion that works cannot save people, and that we are saved by "faith alone." The good works created by the Holy Spirit and worked through his faithful save them from the death in sin and transgressions to which they were formerly in servitude.

To me, and I say this will all due humility and respect to anyone who disagrees, that proxy righteousness seems like it would only be a hindrance to that.

My  reply from Jan. 11..."The entire doctrine of Jesus being a substitute is from hell[if there were such a thing/place]. But of course this is just an opinion :Peace2: I find that man's theologies take words from man's understanding and then use those words[and man's definition] to then create doctrines which give birth to denominations[which separate] then he is persuaded to join the one that gives him the most peace to his thinking.
The word substitute, like rapture, and trinity are not found in the Bible, for research,(we could ad the words hell and eternity as well) and so without man's speculation, assumption, definition, and his interpretation, we find that we miss the mark. Again  :Peace2:

So it seems there's actually quite a bit of agreement between several of us, while some variations on details.  How important are those variations?  Not sure.  Maybe not much, as long as the basics of the faith are believed.  For the sake of discussion, iron sharpening iron, thinking out loud, etc., I'll share a few thoughts.

Seth, I shared with you by PM how the precept of "saved in three stages" has helped bring some things together for me personally.  Honestly, with what you've said within your last couple of posts to me, you're pretty much describing that, in my view!

**These are some THOUGHTS for consideration.  I'm NOT declaring all this is perfect doctrine, some of it are things I lean towards, wonder about, seems to "make some sense" to me.  I think there are "gaps" in some of it, but there seems to be some internal bridge-building here for me.  We'll see, and see what you think...

"And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body". Rm. 8:23    I Thes. 5:23  "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

1)   It seems you're saying the initial work ("saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves, not of works, gift of God") is indeed all a work of God through the Holy Spirit.  I agree, and for what I'm sort of understanding, fits with the "first stage", i.e., the spirit saved "simply" and strictly by being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  Done deal.  Child of God.  John 1:12  "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name"... as our President said, "period".  :)   * further connected thoughts below about imputed righteousness

2)  Then when you go on to describe your belief of how that initial faith is given and grace applied, works come into play.  Overcoming.  Faithfulness.  Surrender.  Making choices that fit His will, dying to our will, as He empowers and helps us.  That fits "stage 2" in the "saved in three stages" precept.  The salvation of the soul, or who we are (what will be left and not burned.  What we will keep, be rewarded for, commended for ("well done, good and faithful servant..crown of righteousness laid up for you").

3)  Then finally (though you really didn't address it, but I believe you believe it),  the saving/redemption of the body.    Mortality swallowed up by immortality.  Present with the Lord, new spiritual [for ever] body.  "Stage three" of salvation.


*   There are about 60-70 scriptures that say a believer on Jesus through faith given to believe, is imputed the righteousness of Christ.  I'll list a few, but comment first.  Seth, you asked the question (AND IT ACTUALLY FITS YOUR OP! :), in essence [paraphrasing] why would there be imputed righteousness, where would it fit, if there's no hell?  To my belief, first of all, the scriptures say it is (unless one might make the distinction between imputed and "GIVEN", which might be a better word?).  Secondly, I believe that especially fits with 1 and 3 above - that we CANNOT become children of God without His righteousness given to us.  We in no way have that ability on our own, and it's not done by works.  It's a gift (#1).  For for us to come into His family, become His child, His brother, His blood has to be involved.  And it is, and that's where He gives (imputes?) His righteousness to us.  He then sees us as all those things, considers us as a child "and not a bastard" as Paul said.  Then the way I see it fitting with #3 is, our glorified/spiritual body ["to wit, the redemption of our bodies" - Paul] is only through His righteousness applied to us.



There are many others specific, but here are just a few verses about God GIVING us HIS righteousness;

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 4:3 - For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

1 Corinthians 1:30 - But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 1:17 - For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ephesians 2:9 - Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Romans 4:24 - But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

IMO, NONE of these do away with the idea of overcoming, being faithful, dying to His will, etc.  However, on the other hand, IMO without this free gift noted in the scriptures above, none of the rest of it matters, because our sonship has never begun - and won't until the next age.

(Adapted from Gregory Dickow)  "God saves us in three ways according to 1 Thessalonians chapter 5. God saves us spirit, soul and body. It starts with our spirit. Our spirit is born again, renewed the moment we are given faith to believe on Jesus, "receive Him" as Paul said. Our soul consists of our mind, our will and our emotions. So, our emotions don't get born again. Our spirit gets born again. Our soul has to be renewed, changed, reprogrammed, retaught and retrained from life's influences.  We need to look to Jesus, and teach our soul to obey God and to think and act (with His help) in agreement with the Word of God.

Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and can improve while we're on this earth by taking care of our body and doing God's will.  But our body isn't completely changed until in His presence, when mortality is swallowed up by immortality."



These are thoughts, some of them perhaps tentative beliefs, that are in process for me.  Things I've been given to see to this point.  I know there's a lot more, this just scratches the surface of the results of the cross.

Quote from: Seth on January 13, 2014, 07:14:54 AM

I am re-examining the concept/doctrine of Penal Substitution insofar as it has created the idea that works cannot save people, or have nothing to do with salvation, and how it created the "faith alone" doctrine...[paraphrase;  "His righteousness imputed hindrance rather than help.."]

Now may I offer a simple answer, after working on that post over an hour?   :laughing7:

because that's how we become a child of God - then, the rest begins... :2c:

Even still though, when "the rest begins", i.e., "walking the walk", I believe micah makes a good point, i.e., He's the one doing the reconciling, sustaining us, etc.   He gives faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God.  Seems to me that even in our struggling to please Him, be obedient, etc., it's still Him giving us what we need  :mshock:   

"It does not depend on the one who wills or runs, but on God who shows mercy";  "He who began a good work in you will complete it", "looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith".... I think of Paul "struggling", fighting flesh/sin...he said he failed..then he said, however, that even so, even though he fell short and he couldn't "measure up", God's grace was sufficient (I see that as he was still a child, God still saw Him that way - he may lose some things, but His spiritual rebirth and being God's child was a sealed deal - the gift was sufficient  ...  blessings. 

Quote from: eaglesway on January 13, 2014, 01:02:40 AMI think forgiveness and faith are separate issues.

Forgiveness is part of faith. It's the works of faith. Faith without works is dead/non existant.

Quote*   There are about 60-70 scriptures that say a believer on Jesus through faith given to believe, is imputed the righteousness of Christ.  I'll list a few, but comment first.  Seth, you asked the question (AND IT ACTUALLY FITS YOUR OP! :), in essence [paraphrasing] why would there be imputed righteousness, where would it fit, if there's no hell?

Hi James,
It's good to know we agree on quite a bit. For example, the process is really important.

1. We cannot work to gain the Holy Spirit
2. When the Holy Spirit comes, good works follow to save us from death in transgressions and sin.
3. The Holy Spirit is given to whoever God has chosen, not of him who runs, but God who shows mercy.

As to the above question, I want to clarify because I am not disputing the concept of imputed righteousness. But I want to clarify what "imputed" means. It comes from the Greek "logizomai" which means to "conclude" or "count as."

Let's take Romans 4 as an example, a chapter that I believe is one of the most misunderstood in all the Bible.

Romans 4
11 And he (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also

I do not see, here, in this verse that Christ's righteousness is being imputed in place of our own lack thereof as a legal transaction. What it's saying is that the Gentiles are being counted righteous who have the faith that Abraham had, rather than being under the Law (like the Jews).

But what does it mean to have the faith of Abraham? Check out the next verse:

Romans 4
12 And (Abraham is) the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

This is what Paul is saying makes someone a child of God, not Christ's proxy righteousness, but WALKING in steps of faith of Abraham.

This is where James and Paul are in agreement: WALKING in steps OF faith, not just HAVING faith. That's the difference between works of the Law and works which come by Grace through Faith. The converse of what Paul is saying is that those who do not WALK in steps of faith are not the seed of Abraham, because he didn't just SAY he had faith, he walked in obedience and THAT is why he was righteous before God.

In that way, Romans 4 reconciles with James:

James 2
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

Paul would say "yes" but that Abraham was not justified by works OF THE LAW.

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You see, James is still talking about righteousness by faith. He is just explaining what that means.
A man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Just not by the works of the Law. This is why faith is counted for righteousness. BOTH Paul and James understood the Hebrew concept of faith as being faithful, obedient, loyal, not simply believing a proposition intellectually.

This is why it says Philippians 3:9 "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"

Our OWN righteousness is by the LAW. But the righteousness that is by faith in Christ is God's own righteousness. Here is what Paul said in the previous chapter.

Philippians 2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So, it's not a matter of crediting an account with Christ's righteousness, it's a matter of transfered righteousness: God who works in you. That's the righteousness by faith. That's why it says "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

That's the Holy Spirit MAKING us, forming us like clay in to the righteousness of God. For it is God in you both to will and to work of his good pleasure. This is why Jesus laid upon himself the iniquities of us all. He became the Lamb to forgive all old sins, so that we could be made the righteousness of God through faith.

Quote from: Seth on January 13, 2014, 08:47:40 AM

So, it's not a matter of crediting an account with Christ's righteousness, it's a matter of transfered righteousness: God who works in you. That's the righteousness by faith. That's why it says "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

That's the Holy Spirit MAKING us, forming us like clay in to the righteousness of God. For it is God in you both to will and to work of his good pleasure. This is why Jesus laid upon himself the iniquities of us all. He became the Lamb to forgive all old sins, so that we could be made the righteousness of God through faith.

There may be more hairs to split here, but I personally don't have a big problem with the above at all, as it sounds like we're either saying the same thing, or something real close in this regard..i.e., I see it as Christ giving us his righteousness, which I certainly agree could be called "transferred" into us...No problem at all with the idea that He makes us a new creature..or, that true new birth brings about change and the evidence (His works of righteousness in and through us) of His faith placed within us...  blessings.

Quote from: WhiteWings on January 13, 2014, 08:26:30 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on January 13, 2014, 01:02:40 AMI think forgiveness and faith are separate issues.

Forgiveness is part of faith. It's the works of faith. Faith without works is dead/non existant.

True. And it is my reasoning that Grace is the engine that ignites the knowledge of forgiveness which results in faith and that is certainly a first work.

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 13, 2014, 06:42:22 AM
HE is doing the reconciling, not me or you.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/conciliation-and-reconciliation/msg67180/#msg67180

Christ had a righteousness that
left him the ability to talk to and hear from God his father.

WE have been given a righteousness that
gives us the ability to talk to and hear from God our Father.

You have to have a clear conscience to go boldly in to the throne room of God
looking for your Father.

You can have a clear conscience through faith in Jesus.
You can go into the throne room thinking and believing the only reason,
That the Father would entertain any of your request was because of his satisfaction
with his son .

When ever I add works with faith it weakens my ability to stand in the thronroom

Quote from: dajomaco on January 13, 2014, 07:50:57 PM
When ever I add works with faith it weakens my ability to stand in the thronroom

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Quote from: dajomaco on January 13, 2014, 07:50:57 PM
Christ had a righteousness that
left him the ability to talk to and hear from God his father.

WE have been given a righteousness that
gives us the ability to talk to and hear from God our Father.

You have to have a clear conscience to go boldly in to the throne room of God
looking for your Father.

You can have a clear conscience through faith in Jesus.
You can go into the throne room thinking and believing the only reason,
That the Father would entertain any of your request was because of his satisfaction
with his son .

When ever I add works with faith it weakens my ability to stand in the thronroom

:dsunny: Not many will understand that, but put me on the list. :Peace2:

Paul himself said that "the doers of the Law shall be justified."

I think what made Paul so difficult to understand in Peter's opinion is that because Paul brought the evangel to the Gentiles, his work was constantly under threat from Judaizers who kept coming in with things like Circumcision.

Now, Paul always said that loving your neighbor (bringing him a blanket when he is cold, not stealing, not coveting) fulfilled the Law, but he kept having to deal with the legalism of Judaizers and their diverse washings and Sabbaths and all these things which were beside the point of loving our neighbor and finding the pleasing way to do that through faith and the Spirit impartation.

As a result, Paul spoke very powerfully about faith, but I think there has been misunderstandings. He said something very provocative which sounds exactly like the phrase "you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Check it out:

Romans 2
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Wait a minute, WHAT?

Paul spent so much time proclaiming that we are justified by works apart from the Law, so what gives? Here is what he means: WORKS of love fulfill the Law, no different from what James was speaking. Paul is verifying "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" but in the following context:

Romans 2
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts

There we go. Those who are DOERS of the Law are justified....even though they don't have the Law, because they do instinctively the things of the Law. Here are the things they do:


Romans 2
21You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

There it is. Not just the hearers of the Law are justified, but the doers of the Law are justified. The difference between Judaizers and Paul is that the Gentiles have been enabled to be doers of the Law, by nature, and that is why they are justified.

Romans2
25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

That's it. By keeping the requirements of the Law (do not steal, do not covet, give a blanket to a brother who is cold) Gentiles uncircumcision is regarded as circumcision. THAT is justification, that is how Paul agrees with James: "You see that a man is justified by works (doers of the Law) and not by faith alone." (a man who is  DOER of the Law is justified). The separating factor between Covenants is that the DOING is a work of the Holy Spirit indwelling, not the letter of the Law of Moses.

This is what I believe the church at large has misunderstood about faith and how it justifies and how it brings salvation.

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 13, 2014, 07:55:46 PM


:dsunny: Not many will understand that, but put me on the list. :Peace2:

So then, do you essentially disagree with

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Many people deal with James' words by generalizing them to say: Man is justified by faith alone and works must follow.

No.

He literally says: Man is justified by WORKS, and NOT by faith alone.

That's a very difficult scripture to maintain in its potent original saying. But Paul agreed when he said "DOERS of the Law are justified" which I explained above.

As I stated, not many will understand what dajomaco posted. :Peace2:

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 13, 2014, 08:18:43 PM
As I stated, not many will understand what dajomaco posted. :Peace2:

Well if you understand, and I am of the many who do not, then why not explain?  :dontknow:

Just go back and read his post, I really cannot explain it, it is just there. I am not trying to be a smart aleck :Peace2:

Dajomaco says: WE have been given a righteousness that
gives us the ability to talk to and hear from God our Father.

Here is where I disagree: We have been given a FAITH to talk and hear from God. The righteousness comes when we DO what we hear from him.

Which is why I disagree with: When ever I add works with faith it weakens my ability to stand in the throneroom

I'm sorry, Micah, but Paul said that it is not HEARERS only, but DOERS who are justified before God. I do not, therefore, see the scriptural foundation for NOT adding works with faith. James is clear that incomplete faith justifies nobody. Works added to faith make the faith complete. Only complete faith justifies anyone.

I know these aren't popular words, but I believe they are scripturally sound.

Go no further than the Sermon on the Mount for verification of what I am saying:

Matthew 5
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Wow. Not, blessed are the believers. Belief is critical, no doubt. We cannot please God without it. But James and Paul explain that COMPLETED faith is what justifies man. You may say you have faith, but if you do not add mercy to your faith, don't expect mercy from the Lord. Blessed are not just the professors of faith, but the MERCIFUL.

Another one:

Matthew 5
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Hmmm. :Chinscratch: Again, not "blessed are the believers." No, blessed are the PEACEMAKERS. For, THEY shall be called the children of God. So, we who profess faith may want to add peacemaker to our faith if we want to be called children of God. I don't want to go on too long, but it will always get back to: "For it is not hearers of the Law who are justified, but doers of the Law shall be justified before God."

Trust me, I am saying these words to myself as well, in fact primarily so...

Faith: I believe that faith[persuasion] of it's self is works (an inward action). Faith is a laboring, and I as will labor with it, to keep the faith through a constant work in persuasion to keep the faith.  I am sure that works as good deeds can help strengthen my faith, but those works, to me anyway, have a tendency to make me consider myself more than I am. Should/when I am called to do good deeds[work] I hope to be available when I hear His voice. But it seems to me anyway, that a lot of people do many good works and just the the fact they are human, hidden or outward pride slips in and they think more of themselves, I find this as a slippery slope. This of course is how I have been given to understand my faith.

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 13, 2014, 10:35:27 PM
Faith: I believe that faith[persuasion] of it's self is works (an inward action). Faith is a laboring, and I as will labor with it, to keep the faith through a constant work in persuasion to keep the faith. 

Ok, but how well does that stand up with James' intention?

"A man is saved by faith and not by faith alone?" Huh? Surely, though we can see James' intention when we look at the context:

James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James, in context, is talking about mercy, and acts of love toward other people, not just inward works. If anyone wants mercy from the Lord, we must also be merciful. James is saying that if a man says he has faith but has no works, and sends a brother down the road with nothing to feed him or clothe him, that man is simply not justified before God and is not saved from his former life of lacking mercy.

Quote from: micah7:9I am sure that works as good deeds can help strengthen my faith, but those works, to me anyway, have a tendency to make me consider myself more than I am.

I think Paul countered his own tendency to do that by saying "I labored more than anyone, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me." He cast himself down and gave all credit to God for his good deeds and labor.

Quote from: Seth on January 13, 2014, 11:17:16 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 13, 2014, 10:35:27 PM
Faith: I believe that faith[persuasion] of it's self is works (an inward action). Faith is a laboring, and I as will labor with it, to keep the faith through a constant work in persuasion to keep the faith. 

Ok, but how well does that stand up with James' intention?

"A man is saved by faith and not by faith alone?" Huh? Surely, though we can see James' intention when we look at the context:

James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James, in context, is talking about mercy, and acts of love toward other people, not just inward works. If anyone wants mercy from the Lord, we must also be merciful. James is saying that if a man says he has faith but has no works, and sends a brother down the road with nothing to feed him or clothe him, that man is simply not justified before God and is not saved from his former life of lacking mercy.

Quote from: micah7:9I am sure that works as good deeds can help strengthen my faith, but those works, to me anyway, have a tendency to make me consider myself more than I am.

I think Paul countered his own tendency to do that by saying "I labored more than anyone, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me." He cast himself down and gave all credit to God for his good deeds and labor.

I am not implying not to do good works, I am saying that those works when man does them must be without vanity and that for me is one difficult piece of work. When we are in the position to do those works, what is our motivation? Man enjoys recognition and applause.
Yes, Paul did, and I would say that was faith working and I say that his ability to do so was a work. As for context, I seem to always see the context is brought down to human understanding. We who are chosen and led to laboring in our study and prayer, I do not believe have even scratched the surface of Spirit, understanding or much less walking in Spirit.(That is only thought)
Only One, that I know of has been born from above, born again, as it is said, I am being born from above and I don't believe I have come close to speak as Paul, "I labored more than anyone, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me." 
But I am confident in the Faith of Jesus Christ for my growth.

 :iagree:

I agree on the difficulty too. I was always trained to believe that salvation was a walk in the park, back when I believedin Hell. Say a few words, get dunked in water and bada-bing! Saved!

When I found out the salvation is from sin itelf, I thought maybe there's more to it than this "sinner prayer" business. As long as we have this flesh we run a race...

I know I have been hammering at "works, works, works" on this thread but if we take a step back what are we talking about? Mercy.

Don't we all want to be more merciful? More peace making? I don't know of anyone on these UR boards who don't want to be made into better people by the Gospel. I know I have been very theological with Paul and James, but I believe that the goal of the Gospel is to give us things that I believe we on these boards already want.

Jesus even said: "blessed are those who thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled."

Hard to write those words without tears filling my eyes. We are all thirsty. His YOKE IS LIGHT, not heavy. My goal in this thread is to connect these things to theology so that sense can be made of things which appear to contradict, but actually do not.

I'll say it outright, I don't believe that anyone is justified before God without obedience, without outward manifestation of inward salvation. But that doesn't mean I think they are going to hell either. I just believe those who are not justified are headed for a correction, a big-time correction that might hurt like a woman in the pain of labor, but will produce the works of righteousness God wants in them.

I do think we should rather judge ourselves now than be condemned with the world, but I am not saying that the unjustified are going to hell and are lost forever. Hopefully I am clear on that.

After all, we in UR understand that famous scripture "When God's judgments are in the earth, the people of the world LEARN righteousness."

:laughing7: Doesn't that just say it all? Righteousness is not given on a silver platter (ie without judgment). We must LEARN righteousness. We must LEARN the ways of the Lord. After all, that is the reason that the Bible says that the time has come "for judgment to begin with the house of God."

In a way, righteousness is indeed given on a silver platter, but in the sense that God has chosen who to give it to. Those he chooses experience his judgment to LEARN his ways and be justified before him.

Works seems to be the stumbling block. When done without the Spirit of Love, even the best of deeds seem like "work." However, once Father has blessed us by bringing one to Christ, there is no "work" because everything is performed with *** Joy *** Time just flies and an undesirable "warmth" just fills  the soul.

Everything just falls into place and there is NEVER any 2nd guessing. I find your point, Seth: As long as we have flesh we run a race.... Very apt. Paul said to: "Run it as to win."  Yet Father said to: Be Still and know that I am God. Seems to indicate: "Running to Stand still." Which fits perfectly as Paul mentioned here:

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Eph 4:15
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Jesus gave a wonderful illustration of Faith in the parable of the "Talents of Silver." Replace the word Silver with "Faith" and what James said about Faith without works being dead, becomes very clear. When Paul said to Speak the truth in Love, is a joyful experience because one is being lead by the Spirit. Such 'Works"  bring fulfillment at no cost.

Gosh I hope I have not hi-jacked this thread, something I seem to do too easily.  :doh:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on January 14, 2014, 12:06:58 AM
I'll say it outright, I don't believe that anyone is justified before God without obedience, without outward manifestation of inward salvation. But that doesn't mean I think they are going to hell either. I just believe those who are not justified are headed for a correction, a big-time correction that might hurt like a woman in the pain of labor, but will produce the works of righteousness God wants in them.

I do think we should rather judge ourselves now than be condemned with the world, but I am not saying that the unjustified are going to hell and are lost forever. Hopefully I am clear on that.

After all, we in UR understand that famous scripture "When God's judgments are in the earth, the people of the world LEARN righteousness."

:laughing7: Doesn't that just say it all? Righteousness is not given on a silver platter (ie without judgment). We must LEARN righteousness. We must LEARN the ways of the Lord. After all, that is the reason that the Bible says that the time has come "for judgment to begin with the house of God."

In a way, righteousness is indeed given on a silver platter, but in the sense that God has chosen who to give it to. Those he chooses experience his judgment to LEARN his ways and be justified before him.

:dsunny:  Beautiful  :friendstu:


:HeartThrob:  Julie

Thank you Julie  :HeartThrob:

Basically, I would say that if I walk without mercy, without caring for people, without adding love to my faith, I don't want God to call me justified (righteous) because that would be a lie. Rather, I would want him to see my lack of righteousness and correct it, because really want him to make me better.

In my former religious teaching, I was deathly afraid of being called unjustified because it meant (gasp!) HELL!

But now I see it only means there is more work to do on the clay to make it into a pot pleasing to the Potter. We don't have to be afraid of God as a bully. Despise thou NOT the chastening of the Lord.

 Doh!   :laughing7:  Just when I think we've got it settled.

I'm trying to keep a sock in my mouth, but it just slipped out.  I'll get it back in.  JUST AS SOON AS I SAY THIS!!  :)   :gimmefive:   (I'm also afraid this is starting to loop, go around in circles..and I DO get dizzy on merry-go-rounds   :laugh:)

I think there's much truth permeating this thread, including in dajamaco's last post.  I believe you've hit some key issues Seth, but I'm still personally here;  the initial salvation (becoming a child) is only through the gift of faith to believe on Jesus.  Given.  Made righteous in God's eyes only through the blood applied.  Done deal, when as you say, God chooses to save. .  Then; we grow from there - "growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".  Works/choices/surrender/faithfulness are involved in that.

Seth, you've said you don't believe we do;  but as I see it, if we did have to totally work for God's "favor" and righteousness, then it's not a gift.  Also, in that scenario, I would be concerned about the possibility of diminishing the cross.  Belief and faith in Jesus (He is the door to the sheepfold) I believe is the absolute initial ("basic") requirement.  Then everything else goes from there.   :2c: 

Rom. 5:1,2  YLT   Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.
 

To me, it's salvation of the spirit (spiritual rebirth), then the works of God through us, bringing us into healing, overcoming, victory, maturity (the KJV calls it 'perfection') - described by Paul as being a man rather than a child/babe of God.   Child of God first, then man of God through maturity, growth, discipline and surrender/obedience, etc...  :2c:     

Quote from: jabcatI think there's much truth permeating this thread, including in dajamaco's last post.  I believe you've hit some key issues Seth, but I'm still personally here;  the initial salvation (becoming a child) is only through the gift of faith to believe on Jesus. 

Ok, so maybe I can explain where that confuses me. Romans 5 says this:

Romans 5
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That is why Paul literally never says the words "faith alone." You quoted Romans 5 below "having been declared righteous then by faith."  That's what it means. By faith we receive his LIFE unto salvation (healing) from sin, and therefore justification. Obedience has always been the goal of the Gospel. When Paul said that God saw the faith of Abraham and imputed it to him for righteousness, he was talking about the fact that Abraham was obedient because he had faith, not because he was under the Law of Moses. God did not credit faith to Abraham APART from his obedience. If Abraham had refused to place Isaac on the altar, he would not have been justified. Paul would agree and James would agree on that. But NO LAW told Abraham to do that. Abraham did it on faith and that is what made him justified. James says this, practically word for word.

The problem of confusion for me, is that I do not see anywhere that salvation is by faith alone. I don't see an "initial salvation" apart from from Christ's LIFE (faith alone). So, it's very difficult for me to say that anyone is saved by faith alone in any respect. I know that some of these theories are developed to explain the seeming contradictions between Paul and James, but I don't see anywhere where they taught a three-stage salvation process with faith alone, then faith plus works.

What I see is that Salvation comes ONLY by the Life of Christ, not by faith alone.

So the question is what kind of faith brings salvation? Completed faith, or incomplete faith? Completed faith is that in which works make the faith complete and the result is justification (justification by faith).  So, maybe I can resolve some issues by saying this: Man is justified by completed faith alone.

But James is pretty clear on what that means....

Quote from: jabcatMade righteous in God's eyes only through the blood.  Done deal.  Then; we grow from there

But James says "Man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Paul says "Not just the hearers of the Law are justified before God, but the DOERS of the Law are justified"

They both agree, so why the need to reconciled them by a concept of a three stage salvation process?

Quote from: jabcatSeth, you've said you don't believe we do;  but as I see it, if we did have to totally work for God's "favor" and righteousness, then it's not a gift. 

The gift is the Holy Spirit. We don't work for that. What makes us righteous before God is the works that the Spirit does with our hands when faith has comes (righteousness by faith and not by works of the Law).

I'm trying to be quiet..you want me to respond now, or in a couple of days?    :laugh:

:OhNo:  I'll say this quickly in response to your statement that the gift is the Holy Spirit.  Yes, the Holy Spirit is a gift, and part of the cleansing/renewing process.  However, when Paul talks of salvation, he says the gift is grace through faith, and none of it is of us...gift..given.    Shhhhh    :)

Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2014, 01:47:42 AM
I'm trying to be quiet..you want me to respond now, or in a couple of days?   

:OhNo:  I'll say this quickly in response to your statement that the gift is the Holy Spirit.  Yes, the Holy Spirit is a gift, and part of the cleansing/renewing process.  However, when Paul talks of salvation, he says the gift is grace through faith, and none of it is of us...gift..given.    Shhhhh    :)

LOL, any time, brother  :friendstu:

Look what Paul says regarding saved by Grace

Ephesians
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul is saying that the faith is not of ourselves and that BY GRACE God made us alive together with Christ by being HIS workmanship created unto Good works. Salvation is NOT of ourselves, the gift of God is being made the righteousness of Christ through the good works that the Spirit has done to save us from (sticking with Ephesians 2):

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Stopping the walk according to the course of this world is both work, and not of ourselves. It is a gift of God. But if the walk is maintained, you have no justification.

The salvation is by his life, never by "faith alone." Faith alone cannot save anyone from trespasses. If they continue in trespasses after they believed, "then faith is dead" and they therefore have no justification. James makes it impossible to be justified without obedience. Faith without works is dead. Therefore, no justification without completed faith.

quote from Seth

QuoteThe problem of confusion for me, is that I do not see anywhere that salvation is by faith alone. I don't see an "initital salvation" apart from from Christ's LIFE. So, it's very difficult for me to say that anyone is saved by faith alone in any respect.

The simple TRUTH is there is absolutely NO ONE who will not be saved. It is safer than MONEY in the bank. SO safe that Father through Jesus indicated that even those that very little spiritual knowledge has been given, very little will be expected.

Seth, I know you have given the Scriptures a great deal of thought, but PLEASE stop and think on PERFECT LOVE and then realize that you are likely a squillion miles short of the mark. Father is just so far beyond anything we can imagine.

I would suggest to just mediate on LOVE, perfect parental Love and then on ALL the marvelous and beautiful things that Father has given ALL his Children to marvel at. Do not worry about how you will be saved, or for that matter how anyone will be. Just let it go bro and allow Fathers Love to transcend in and through you. Nothing Else Matters. This was the greatest LESSON Father has ever given me.

Absolutely NOTHING matters except the joy, love and peace in my heart. Whilst-ever I give greater concern to anything else then I am pulling down the blinds on Fathers Love. I am making something matter that is at best temporal, for nothing in this life will last. Nothing. Except the Love we have for Father, His Son and one another; unconditional Love is boundless and limitless.

I have spent a lot of years studying, dissecting and debating Scripture. Gosh, I likely am still  :mock:

But it is different now. I love it when you debate me and push me. I smile now, where once I would've taken it personal and got all bent out of shape. I am in control of my feelings and when I just let them go, thanking them but telling them that I don't need them anymore. I can just be. Be in a state of joyful being with not a concern about anything.

Would you believe that this is what Trust means: trusting Father that His will, will be done and that He has Everyone of his Children best interest at heart. Faith is KNOWING it will be so. Love is finally living without a question, because having answers no longer matters. Father does not want a trust based on knowledge, rather He wants Trust based on a child like heart filled with love, appreciation and a joy that just cannot be dulled.

This is what Love, Trust and Faith means to me and I honestly need not know anything else.

I hope you understand.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob: :friendstu:

Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 14, 2014, 02:03:49 AM
The simple TRUTH is there is absolutely NO ONE who will not be saved. It is safer than MONEY in the bank. SO safe that Father through Jesus indicated that even those that very little spiritual knowledge has been given, very little will be expected.

Seth, I know you have given the Scriptures a great deal of thought, but PLEASE stop and think on PERFECT LOVE and then realize that you are likely a squillion miles short of the mark. Father is just so far beyond anything we can imagine.

Julie, I already know that everyone will be saved.  :doh:

When did I say I was perfectly on the mark? C'mon, Julie.  :friendstu:

I must say that somewhere along the way I must have taken a wrong turn following the caravan of this thread. So I am stopping at a cafe and taking a coffee break, besides I'm almost out of gas. Bless the Lord. :dsunny:

LOL, here is the shortest version I can give. I have spoken in complex posts but I try to pare it down when I can.

Justification is by faith. If faith is dead, there is no justification.

What I want to know is, how is this inconsistent with scripture?

Alright, you asked for it, so I guess I'll talk to you   :happygrin:  (modifying - glad to see in the meantime some others jumped in..)

I started to try to dig into specifics, but the more I look at it, I'm thinking it just could be that we look at the same scriptures, but are just going to come away with some variance in interpretation for right now.  I don't think that would be the first time that's happened in Christendom :)

It's funny.  Much of the time it seems we're saying the same things, then here and there there's suddenly a seeming divergence.   I don't know that it would benefit to try to take each and every point and try to reach absolute common ground on it.  I started to, but again, it just seems to be kind of looping, agreeing on many basics, but still just viewing some things differently.

I've started and re-started to post specific replies to various points, but again, it just seems to looping, like we're saying the same things again.  (like I just did, haha)

So, including your last post about Eph.   Here's what I see there.  We're saved by faith (which is given) by grace (which is given), not of works - period.      The result - included IN that salvation - is the then continuing process of the evidence of Him being in us, i.e., His works of righteousness "which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".  I believe we can lose things, but not our having been made a child of God.  We're either a child of God, or a child of the devil.  I don't believe I'm a child of God one day, and if I or He slips up and I don't do exactly what I need to stay in the right good works, that I'm suddenly the next day a child of the devil again.  That's honestly the way I was raised, i.e., one can lose their salvation.  I don't believe that.  I believe when the spirit is saved, i.e., Acts 16:30"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household", I'm a child of God..I may fail, fall, sin..but I won't stay there (at least comfortably) - because a child is disciplined...  I don't believe there's anything I can ever do to not be His child.  That's accomplished by Him adopting me into His family through the gift of faith and grace.  If I'm a disobedient child, He will discipline me and I will repent in this lifetime, or I will suffer loss in the next age..things of me that won't be saved...but when I believed unto salvation, my spirit was renewed and it was SEALED by the Holy Spirit.  See, to me, anything less is just too tenuous.  The Holy Spirit in and out?  God's child/devil's child/God's child/devil's child - all based on works?  To me, that scenario waters down the power of the cross.  Maybe, just maybe, if we both stepped back and set on it a year, we might find we're saying a lot of the same things..just from different angles, and in different verbiage...for right now, for me, I think it's a simple truth to say "I'm saved by grace through faith and it's a gift, then God expects obedience and surrender, and He helps me do it.  I have no righteousness of my own, I must look to Him, the author and finisher of my faith."

Blessings.

Quote from: Seth on January 14, 2014, 02:15:51 AM
LOL, here is the shortest version I can give. I have spoken in complex posts but I try to pare it down when I can.

Justification is by faith. If faith is dead, there is no justification.

What I want to know is, how is this inconsistent with scripture?

:)

In all these various terms, attempting to come to a definitive conclusion, I've been thinking there may be some contextual things to consider, "who's talking exactly about what"?   I.e., some things being lumped together that may need to be "rightly cut [divided]".. ;  I had posted this earlier -

"The context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

James and Paul seem to be using the word "justified" in different context/meaning. In Romans 3:28  Paul is using the word justified to mean "declared righteous by God." Paul is speaking of God's legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ's righteousness is applied to our account.   On the other hand, James is using the word justified to mean "being demonstrated and proven."

Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2014, 02:49:13 AM

Quote from: Seth on January 14, 2014, 02:15:51 AM
LOL, here is the shortest version I can give. I have spoken in complex posts but I try to pare it down when I can.

Justification is by faith. If faith is dead, there is no justification.

What I want to know is, how is this inconsistent with scripture?

:)

I've been thinking there may be a contextual issue, some things being lumped together, i.e., needing "rightly cut".. ;  I had posted this earlier -

"The context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

James and Paul seem to be using the word "justified" in different context/meaning. In Romans 3:28  Paul is using the word justified to mean "declared righteous by God." Paul is speaking of God's legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ's righteousness is applied to our account.   On the other hand, James is using the word justified to mean "being demonstrated and proven."

:friendstu:

But Paul never says that righteousness is credited to our account. That's the interpretation.

Paul also never literally says that anyone is justified by faith ALONE. He does say "by faith" but we add our interpretation when we say he MEANT alone.

Paul literally said "Not the hearers of the Law are justified before God but the DOERS of the Law are justified." In context with Romans 2, he is saying that Gentile believers are able to do those works by nature not by being under the Law. But Paul's statement aligns itself with James so that they are not using the word in a different context.

Paul is attaching works to justification, but he is being clear, that the works happen by the SPIRIT, according to the circumcision of the heart, and not by self-determination. They are doers of the Law because it's written on their heart. Therefore they do not steal, they do not covet etc etc. Doers of the Law are justified.

Yes, I agree - correct interpretation is important.  I believe there's context to that too...look exactly at who Paul is addressing when he talks about the Law, and exactly WHAT he's addressing... :2c:

Your statement here;  "Paul is attaching works to justification, but he is being clear, that the works happen by the SPIRIT"...   that's the whole "viewing angle" I was talking about...  I agree that there are works attached - but they're not some separate requirement, rather but a PART OF what Christ's indwelling presence brings...a result of..not a means to an end...I believe that's Christ.. :)

Yes exactly. Paul is saying "Look you Judaizers! The Gentiles who have received the spirit are not coveting, not stealing, etc and you who preach Circumcision are doing those things! They are doing it because they have the Spirit, and you are not.

Therefore, the Gentiles are justified, and you are not, because they are doers of the Law, not hearers only."

Paul was always clear that love fulfills the Law, not circumcision, diverse washings etc. But at the end of Romans 2 he says:


Romans 2
26 So then, if those who are not circumcised (Gentiles) keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn (judge) you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

Love completes faith, which is why incomplete faith cannot justify, because it does not fulfill the Law, only Love fulfills the Law.

Haha, I think we're getting nowhere fast, but it's kind'a fun   :happy3:   A lot of good scriptures are being posted :)

I believe Jesus fulfills the Law.  Of course, He is Love.

Actually, I personally think there are about 50+ scriptures I would understand   as "His righteousness being credited to a believer's account", WHEN truly given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - the miracle of the free gift.  I.e., have become a child of God.    I listed about 10 earlier, here's a few more.

Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 3:26 - To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I just want it to be known that I do agree with those scripturess, but I think what Paul is saying is that the free gift is the Spirit by faith which makes man obedient to the Law not of himself but as a free gift. There is no salvation but by his life, and therefore no righteousness. No man is presently righteous without faith first so Romans 5:18 cannot be understood outside "we access grace through faith" and that is how God makes man obedient to the things of the Law which are of love

That pretty much reconciles Paul with James outright   :HeartThrob: :friendstu:

Well, I think I'm "OK" with your main conclusions there  :laugh:  :Peace2:   

Just a few thoughts;  I believe Jesus fulfilled the Law.  so that's where I believe His righteousness 'given' comes in.  But I also agree, that changes things within us.  There will be activity, and evidence of activity.    But since we could both probably post all night about specifics, I'd like to be more general about the overall topic. 

       I really and truly think some words, such as "justify" can be used in different contexts and meanings, and needs to really be rightly cut (hard to do).  For instance;  I may be saved, spiritually reborn, a believer on Jesus as Savior, and in that sense be fully justified.   Strictly based on God's gift.  Because of our High Priest, we can enter boldly in the throneroom of grace.

On the other hand;  I may spit on a beggar.  There's no way I can be "justified" in performing that act (unless I was mentally disabled, etc., but you know what I mean).  Does that mean I'm no longer a child of God, as in no longer "justified" in an overall sense, and so now I'm a child of the devil?  Or is that 2 different things?  I believe it is...but it seems like we're at a pretty good place, so maybe that's just something to be examined more in the future.   :dsunny:

Well I am glad that we have made some significant agreements.  :cloud9:

QuoteOn the other hand;  I may spit on a beggar.  There's no way I can be "justified" in performing that act (unless I was mentally disabled, etc., but you know what I mean).  Does that mean I'm no longer a child of God, as in no longer "justified" in an overall sense, and so now I'm a child of the devil?

For someone who spits on a beggar and says he has faith. I'd have to look at James 2. Then, I would need to look at Romans 2.

I would need to ask, is this person a "doer of the Law and therefore justified?" I would have to ask, did works follow faith unto justification? No, because, as you said, you aren't justified in that act.

However, if you repented and changed your beggar spitting ways, then I think your obedience would line up with Abraham's "walking in steps of faith."

If you repented but CONTINUED spitting on homeless people, I would then urge you to take a look at Hebrews 10 "for if we sin willfully..."

Quote from: Seth on January 14, 2014, 02:06:30 AM

Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 14, 2014, 02:03:49 AM
The simple TRUTH is there is absolutely NO ONE who will not be saved. It is safer than MONEY in the bank. SO safe that Father through Jesus indicated that even those that very little spiritual knowledge has been given, very little will be expected.

Seth, I know you have given the Scriptures a great deal of thought, but PLEASE stop and think on PERFECT LOVE and then realize that you are likely a squillion miles short of the mark. Father is just so far beyond anything we can imagine.

Julie, I already know that everyone will be saved.  :doh:

When did I say I was perfectly on the mark? C'mon, Julie.  :friendstu:

So, why worry? Pray to Father that all the Love that you have will go to where is is needed most. Trust that Father knows and have Faith that it will. Then listen to your intuition (the voice with no sound) and  a path like gold will as if my magic will unfold before you. Seth, it is not about understanding nor is it about seeking to learn to discover; rather it is about letting go to allow light to come in and bro, a new world is just a breath away.

I know you never said you were perfectly on the mark! That's the stumbling block and has been for so many for so long. Father created each of us perfect for a reason. The world say's sure we are perfect but we will be even more perfect if we do this and buy this and watch that. That has always been the trap and religion fell right in with it. When we have truly learned to Love ourselves for who and what we are. When we can Thank God and mean it each time we look into a mirror, and when we can look back over all the things we have done and see a child who tried so hard but fell so short so many times and feel nothing but love for that one who knew little but dreamed so big. Only then will see EVERYONE else in that same light. Even the baddest of them all.



This is how Father Loves each one of His children, and this is how we must Love Father in return. Love is not Fearful and Love will never Fail. Father will never fail any of His Children and it is quite likely that the ones the suffered greatest in this Life, He Loves the most.

Faith, Hope and Love. A simple question for you, what question regarding Father cannot be answered with those three words? Nothing else matters.

Love Wins  :HeartThrob:

Julie  :girlheart:

Julie, I love understanding and seeking to learn more. But thank you for your concerns anyway  :gimmefive:

by the way I do want to clarify something. I don't believe that by committing a sin  or making mistakes means we lose our entire place with God. John says that if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we sin without remorse though then I think we're just sociopaths right? I think Hebrews 10 is clear that we become adversaries of the cross.

Quote from: Seth on January 13, 2014, 09:47:01 PM
Dajomaco says: WE have been given a righteousness that
gives us the ability to talk to and hear from God our Father.

Here is where I disagree: We have been given a FAITH to talk and hear from God. The righteousness comes when we DO what we hear from him.

Which is why I disagree with: When ever I add works with faith it weakens my ability to stand in the throneroom

I'm sorry, Micah, but Paul said that it is not HEARERS only, but DOERS who are justified before God. I do not, therefore, see the scriptural foundation for NOT adding works with faith. James is clear that incomplete faith justifies nobody. Works added to faith make the faith complete. Only complete faith justifies anyone.

I know these aren't popular words, but I believe they are scripturally sound.

I am saying I have come full circle on this issue.

To prepare myself to enter the throne room of God

My mind with all the battling that goes on .

I have come to the conclusion that to take any of my works
in the throne room with me. Leaves just a smidgen of doubt that whatever work I bring to mind .
I know I could have done better.
I resolved that no matter how pure a work I thought I may have done
I would not bring that work to cloth myself in .
It was always exposed as a filthy rag.
So now when I go into the throne room of God.
I go wearing the garment of faith in Jesus.
The Father and I discuss what I am wearing .
He is  pleased that I wear the garment that he provided and that I do not accessorize it.

Quote from: DajomacoI have come to the conclusion that to take any of my works
in the throne room with me. Leaves just a smidgen of doubt that whatever work I bring to mind .
I know I could have done better.
I resolved that no matter how pure a work I thought I may have done
I would not bring that work to cloth myself in .
It was always exposed as a filthy rag.
So now when I go into the throne room of God.
I go wearing the garment of faith in Jesus.
The Father and I discuss what I am wearing .
He is  pleased that I wear the garment that he provided and that I do not accessorize it.

Hi dajomaco  :friendstu:

You might be surprised that I agree with what you are saying inso far as my understanding of garments in the Bible. The Bible does not say that our BAD acts are as dirty rags. In other words, if I try and fail, that's a dirty rag. But that our own RIGHTEOUSNESS is as dirty rags (ie the GOOD things we do).

What's really interesting about that is HOW we have our own righteousness (I am really not trying to throw scriptures out there, but it's just amazing what you find):

Philipians 3
7But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

You see, when we do good things because the LETTER says so, we have our OWN righteousness. But what Paul is saying is that he wants the righteousness that comes by faith. But see what he says right after that?

"Yes, to know the POWER of his resurrection...."

This is what I have been saying this whole time. The righteousness that comes by faith is through the power of his LIFE, by the Spirit, and that is what makes us conformable to Christ's death. And when Paul says things like : "I labored more...yet not I but the Grace of God with me..." He is living out his words that everything is a loss to him so as to gain Christ. Christ is doing the works through the power of his resurrection. Paul did not consider his works to be his own.

Here is proof (staying within Philippians):

Philippians 2
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God does not consider pure works to be like dirty rags. He considers OUR OWN righteousness to be as dirty rags. Phil 2:13 is "the power of his resurrection through faith," to become like him and be made conformable to his death. To sacrifice ones SELF and live for God.

When we go into the sacred place, the pure works of the Lord go with us because they belong to him.

There you go Dajomaco(with humility in as I mention you)!
Amen and Glory :dsunny:
And that is tough my brother, in fact the garments hang on, as a shadow, despite all the shrugging and undressing. My given understanding, so Glory! I stand, for correction, should it not be so.

And, you know I like to boil it down to the most simple. So I will put it this way:

Here is the righteousness of God by faith: "For it is God who works in you both to will and to act of his good pleasure."

Obedience by faith, not by Law, that's the righteousness by faith. Jesus said in John 15 that the branches in him which do not produce fruit will be cut off from the tree, that they wither and are fit for burning.

I am not completely sure where accredited righteousness is supposed to do for someone in a case like that. I dunno, but it seems that Jesus is giving his disciples some pretty explicit warning about not producing fruit. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord...."

To know him, is to know the power of his resurrection.

Oh my Gosh, brothers REALLY!!!!  :dontknow:

Let go of the letter and see yourselves as mere toddlers in Fathers eyes. (See your own toddlers if you have them and the works of their hands) DO you see dirty rags? Do you see their works fit for the dump, or do you see wonderful works of Art that likely hang on the refrigerator or your office wall at work.

DO NOT be ashamed of yourselves and what you did or didn't do; could or could've done. There isn't a child alive that could not have scrawled a few lines on a piece of paper, better. But they could not have done it MORE PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many children commit suicide everyday because they could not live up to "expectations?" What could have they gained had they been praised for their hard work, forgiven for their mistakes and encouraged with Love ALWAYS.

I have just one last thing to say and then I will step aside. Do you really believe the Father that Loves you more than you could possibly know, is a monster? He's not guys.

Dajomaco, if you could have done better you would have. We all would have; we are not perfect and Father does not expect it.

Love you guys, Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 15, 2014, 02:28:50 AM
Oh my Gosh, brothers REALLY!!!!  :dontknow:

Let go of the letter and see yourselves as mere toddlers in Fathers eyes. (See your own toddlers if you have them and the works of their hands) DO you see dirty rags? Do you see their works fit for the dump, or do you see wonderful works of Art that likely hang on the refrigerator or your office wall at work.

DO NOT be ashamed of yourselves and what you did or didn't do; could or could've done. There isn't a child alive that could not have scrawled a few lines on a piece of paper, better. But they could not have done it MORE PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many children commit suicide everyday because they could not live up to "expectations?" What could have they gained had they been praised for their hard work, forgiven for their mistakes and encouraged with Love ALWAYS.

I have just one last thing to say and then I will step aside. Do you really believe the Father that Loves you more than you could possibly know, is a monster? He's not guys.

Dajomaco, if you could have done better you would have. We all would have; we are not perfect and Father does not expect it.

Love you guys, Julie  :HeartThrob:

Julie NO, God is not a monster, he is one who disciplines his children so as to convert them and mold them into the image of his beloved Son. He does this because he is merciful and knows we are in slavery, so he is a deliverer. Just as the Jews were delivered from the Egyptian slavemasters , so God also delivers his children from the bonds of slavery and the yoke of darkness. No, he is not a monster, but a father.

Do you think for one minute I would allow my own child to persist in mockery, whining, violence etc? No way. I LOVE her, so I COMMAND her to do as she is told, and if not there is consequences.

Not a monster. A father. Can you please stop admonishing us as though we believe to the contrary and let us discuss these matters? Nobody is fighting. We are talking...

Quote from: Seth on January 15, 2014, 02:49:02 AM
Do you think for one minute I would allow my own child to persist in mockery, whining, violence etc? No way. I LOVE her, so I COMMAND her to do as she is told, and if not there is consequences.

Not a monster. A father.

Not for a single moment Seth. Not ever. You command out of and through LOVE i would expect, gently at first and as time goes on you likely reprimand with increasing force. Children are no different to us with Father. We push boundaries to the breaking point and if boundaries are no firmly established and enforced..... we know what happens then.


But I was talking about the "good" things she does in HER eyes. Do you see those things through eyes like hers. DO you see all the struggles she went through, all the things holding her back? I guess not because we are not so well equipped. That was my point. Father is. He knows EVERYTHING. He knows what you are good at and what things cause you to stumble. All I am saying, is to not concentrate on the stumbling, but rather when you dance gracefully with Spirit (you know the times)


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

When she does something good in her eyes that IS good, then I am proud and happy for her growth. If she does things that are good in her eyes that are actually BAD, then I correct her. She doesn't need to think that everything she does is a dirty rag. I beleive God wants us to take off our dirty garment and put on his garment, not stay naked.

Quote from: Seth on January 15, 2014, 03:10:50 AM
When she does something good in her eyes that IS good, then I am proud and happy for her growth. If she does things that are good in her eyes that are actually BAD, then I correct her. She doesn't need to think that everything she does is a dirty rag. I beleive God wants us to take off our dirty garment and put on his garment, not stay naked.

You are absolutely correct. I will just offer one more thing for anyone reading this. Children live for praise they NEED it. If praise is not present then the child will either do everything in their power to please whilst dying inside because they can't. Others will seek praise another way. There measure of worth is how many buttons they push and how quick. If they rile a parent / teacher, etc then they will have succeeded as they would have made a difference.

Not the difference the parent wants and certainly not the one the child would prefer to give. I have noticed that there are many broken children of Father, fear of displeasing him. Afraid of always falling short of the mark. Hating where they have come from and many ashamed of who they are. This is why the "church" is doing such a disservice to those such as these. Where words of encouragement and a shoulder to cry on if needed; they are often judged harshly and told to give their life to Jesus. These broken people cannot even accept their own life; the Jesus they devote their life to is just an illusion, a paper doll and it matters not if Jesus's Father is going to torture millions forever, just so long as it is not them.

People of all ages and all creeds need to hear what is good about this world, they need hope through something to hope for. Many churches make their money by keeping the flock dependent. Most of the friends I have won't leave their ET church, even though they don't agree with the teachings. They always ask: What if I am wrong? I always respond with, what if you are? Their faith is just an illusion and will always be until Father steps in and draws them to the real Jesus. This journey can be rough.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 15, 2014, 04:04:01 AM
I hear bitterness :sigh:

from who :Chinscratch:

Ay yay yay   :laughing7:

Dajomaco, if you could have done better you would have. We all would have; we are not perfect and Father does not expect it.

My Father is Love and love is perfect and Love perfects.
Jesus my brother loves my Father.
I am being perfected by love .
Jesus  in a real and practical way has shown me how through his holy spirit .
By faith I can participate in knowing the Love of the Father for his Son (children.)

I am not concerned about doing anything better.
Love requires perfection.
God loves perfectly .
I am a product of a Love relationship between Father and Son.
Perfected.

Glory! Well said :dsunny:

Love in deed is love indeed.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: dajomaco on January 15, 2014, 06:25:14 AM
Dajomaco, if you could have done better you would have. We all would have; we are not perfect and Father does not expect it.

My Father is Love and love is perfect and Love perfects.
Jesus my brother loves my Father.
I am being perfected by love .
Jesus  in a real and practical way has shown me how through his holy spirit .
By faith I can participate in knowing the Love of the Father for his Son (children.)

I am not concerned about doing anything better.
Love requires perfection.
God loves perfectly .
I am a product of a Love relationship between Father and Son.
Perfected.

Love Loves Perfectly


Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.. 1 Peter 4:8


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

BTW, if you ever come into a conversation with an ETer who is in pain from their doctrines and in darkness but has Biblical knowledge, and they test you on points, these points will explain everything. One thing ETers object to about UR is the idea that morality does not matter to Christ, and if that were true, they would have every right to object.

You see, ETers with Biblical knowledge know better than to assume that the Gospel allows people to abide in sin and stay justified. Their own doctrine confuses the matter because of the Hell and Heaven hell issue, misunderstanding of Gehenna etc. I can explain to them what salvation is truly about and why, not only is morality an issue in UR, it's the ENTIRE point of salvation and justification. I can start with the misunderstanding of Gehenna, and talk about all the scriptures which discuss Life and Death and what it all means.

UR is not liberal theology. I don't mean "liberal" as a political term. In fact, I have found that the true Gospel of Christ is even more centered on growth in morality than anything I learned in church. Understanding these points has helped me explain the Gospel clearly and with focus.

Often times people email me and mostly what I get is "Thank you! I suspected Christ could save all, but now I think I really understand it." For those who object, when I explain these things, if they disagree, I don't know, because they go silent and cannot refute it.

Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.. 1 Peter 4:8


Now that is the kind of work I am up for.

 :thumbsup:

1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

We must not stay in word or tongue, but must move on....

A good tree does not stay a seedling.

 

Quote from: dajomaco on January 15, 2014, 08:22:58 PM
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.. 1 Peter 4:8


Now that is the kind of work I am up for.

:iagree:  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on January 15, 2014, 08:24:36 PM
:thumbsup:

1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

We must not stay in word or tongue, but must move on....

A good tree does not stay a seedling.

:iagree:  :HeartThrob:
Yes we must grow always in the light of love.

I read somewhere that everything God does he does for his own good pleasure.

It is a pleasure to me to be part of this online community.
It is a pleasure for me to look for Love with the people I interact with in my day to day live .
Sometimes the simplest niceties  either to me or from me become  the most pleasurable
moments of the day.
Work is a pleasure.

Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 15, 2014, 03:41:35 AM

People of all ages and all creeds need to hear what is good about this world, they need hope through something to hope for. Many churches make their money by keeping the flock dependent.
Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

I can say I am apostate, but i can not stand to watch the sectarian theology lord over Christ's church.  I love the message of UR because it is all about love.  A guy called me two faced for proclaiming UR because of my obvious apostate state.  I told him even I can care about those held in bondage to doctrine.  Getting back on this site has woke me up to some things.

.

The wind blows where it wills. You hear the sound but you don't kno where it is coming from or where it is going. So it is with evryone who is born of the spirit.(Jesus- Jn 3:8)

Sometimes underneath the ashes there is a small coal, just a little spark really. It was kept warm by all that looked like death that laid upon it and kept it from the open air that might have robbed it of its  last light.

Then, a sudden breeze, a light wind out of nowhere, blew away the ashes, picked up that lone dying spark, fanned it once agin to life- and proceeded to start a great big ol fire with it.

Who knows? :o)

I never really saw this before.

Here's how it is with anyone born of the Spirit: you year the sound but you don't know where it is coming from. What's the sound? I think it's the Gospel. They heard Jesus speaking but they didn't know where it was coming from.

Quote from: Seth on January 16, 2014, 02:37:54 AM
I never really saw this before.

Here's how it is with anyone born of the Spirit: you hear the sound but you don't know where it is coming from. What's the sound? I think it's the Gospel. They heard Jesus speaking but they didn't know where it was coming from.

Thank you EW your post was wonderful yet again  :dsunny:

Seth, I am going to offer something that I cannot prove. I call it intuition, for want of a better word. Ideas, thoughts, the need to do or say something that are filled with Love are now very much of my life. I like what EW posted of Jesus: I certainly do not know where it is coming from, yet I am learning to trust them. My quantifier is Love and Peace. I would say most of what I say on this forum is from Spirit, but you know as well as I when Julie get's in the way. But are we not like little children who hear just enough to set them in eager motion. Please know that I am full of exuberance which sometimes gets the better of me. I am sure you would be one of my best friends.  :friendstu:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on January 16, 2014, 02:37:54 AM
I never really saw this before.

Here's how it is with anyone born of the Spirit: you year the sound but you don't know where it is coming from. What's the sound? I think it's the Gospel. They heard Jesus speaking but they didn't know where it was coming from.

And I am sure Jesus knew they would be thinking of Ezekiel, "Son of man, can these bones live?" To which Ezekiel replied, "Only you know Lord". To which God said, "Prophecy to the wind". And Ezekiel did, and the wind came and the bones stood up and came together bone on bone sinew to sinew and stood together, a great army.

This gospel is the word of prophecy that will raise up an army of God.

"For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and He has entrusted us with the word of reconciliation".

Amen