The Meaning Of Christ's Atonement For Sin Without Hell

[Seth]

Edit: changing the title of the thread to avoid misconceptions of my intention.

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I thought I would create a new topic from this, as an offshoot from another thread based on the Hebrew meaning of faith.

I believe the Substitutionary Atonement Doctrine (aka the Penal Substitution Doctrine) is in error and causes a confusion in understanding the scripture. Many people attempt to explain the doctrine of UR to their preachers but are met with a plethora of scriptures which can be easily explained by understanding that the Substitutionary Atonement paradigm is at the heart of the confusion.

Here is what the doctrine says in so many words:
"Man is sinful since Adam, and therefore bound for Hell. God gave the Law and told the Jews to "choose life" so that by following the Law they could be saved from Hell. Since man cannot do the Law, Jesus came as a ransom for us, so that by dying for our sins, we could be saved from Hell by simply believing in Jesus, because when we believe in Jesus God takes Christ's righteousness for our own, and we can get into Heaven without works, but with faith alone."

That's Substitutionary Atonement Doctrine in a nutshell. Now, what I used to do as a UR believer is remove "Hell" from the above doctrine while keeping the rest. Yet, I wondered if Hell does not exist, then what did Jesus ransom me from? What am I to be saved from? Not going to Heaven? That led me into Annihilationism, as though it were salvation from not getting into heaven by way of a big ball of literal fire to wipe the unbelievers out.

However, I now have a view that is a total paradigm shift from the SA doctrine. Here it is in a nutshell.

What I Now Believe
"Man has a carnal mind, and to be carnally minded is death and results in carnal works of sin. God brought the Law and told them to "choose life" by following it. However, the Law kept them in bondage to death in transgressions because it could not bring spiritual freedom from the carnal mind. The goal of the New Covenant was to bring spiritual freedom, and therefore Christ died to be reborn three days later as a life giving Spirit. This was the ransom (the price required to free the prisoners). The Law, which counted men's sins against him only, was removed, reconciling man. Then, God gives the faith of Christ and the Spirit, so that salvation is not by works of the Law, but by God's choice. Once the Spirit comes, the bond of carnality is broken from the mind, and the works follow suit resulting in righteousness inside and out, and salvation from sin. In the next life, we are also promised immortality together with God and along with indwelling Life."

I am not sure what I would call that doctrine, but it's much different from the SA one in a key point: works and salvation. Works lead to salvation from transgressions in the sense that they cause a shift in the direction of a person's life. An example I tend to give is heroin abuse.

To be saved from heroin abuse requires the active ceasing of abusing heroin. Common sense. But that's a work. Jesus came to save us from sin and transgression by causing a shift in our minds, and therefore a shift in our actions, thereby saving us from, as Peter put it, "this untoward generation."

[Lazarus Short]

What you have said above is very good, but I think there are several reasons for Jesus the Christ dying on the cross.  I don't care to dismiss Substitutionary Atonement, but I would delete the Hell part of it.  Nor would I dismiss your, as yet unnamed, slant on it. 

What I would do is to add that Jesus died so that we could become heirs of the Kingdom along with Him, in the sense that no one inherits except by the death of the testator. 

Another thing coming to my mind is that YHWH/Jesus, having taken corporate Israel as His Bride at Sinai (wherever that was), rightly considered Israel and Judah (two sisters, as per Jacob) as His wives.  In fact, He said as much, and portraying Himself as a Bigamist in the process.  When these sisters went after other gods, YHWH/Jesus rightly considered it to be adultery, and sent them packing out of the house/promised land.  What to do?  Being divorced from their Husband, the wives cannot remarry Him.  Only by Him dying, for God's Own Law states that a divorced woman is only free upon the death of her Husband, are they free to remarry.  Having died, YHWH/Jesus is now, at this very time, free to take His Wives back, but this time as a single entity, the Bride of Christ. 

Now, if you wonder at my YHWH = Jesus, just plug the very ancient pictographic meanings of the letters into the tetragrammaton:

He = a window, or "behold"

Wav/Vav = a tent peg, or a nail

He = a window, or "behold"

Yod = a hand, the right hand

So, there were layers of meaning to the Name God gave to Moses, and one layer can be read as:

Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand.

[Seth]

I want to clarify that I am not disagreeing with the idea of a substitution itself. Jesus is the Lamb. So he is a substitute in that way. I am talking about the idea of Christ dying to satisfy a Divine wrath as a sort of legal exchange. I don't think that plays out in the scripture, particularly since Romans 1 shows that man is already under God's wrath by being turned over to a carnal mind. Justification is not so we can escape a whipping in hell, but that we may be saved from "alienation from God in the mind through wicked works."

If the ET view is correct, Jesus would need to spend an eternity in Hell in my place if it's truly a legal exchange.

I agree, many things happened on the cross. So I don't mean to oversimplify.

[dajomaco]

I want to clarify that I am not disagreeing with the idea of a substitution itself. Jesus is the Lamb. So he is a substitute in that way. I am talking about the idea of Christ dying to satisfy a Divine wrath as a sort of legal exchange. I don't think that plays out in the scripture, particularly since Romans 1 shows that man is already under God's wrath by being turned over to a carnal mind. Justification is not so we can escape a whipping in hell, but that we may be saved from "alienation from God in the mind through wicked works."

If the ET view is correct, Jesus would need to spend an eternity in Hell in my place if it's truly a legal exchange.

I agree, many things happened on the cross. So I don't mean to oversimplify.

Only your mind knows the wicked works that causes your mind to acknowledge
an alienation from God.
The battle is for your mind.
Can you believe that you are saved from the alienation from God ,
while still being involved in your wicked works.?

Thank God yes we can have faith that nothing in this world
can separate us from God .

Heroin is not a sin .
The sin is how the law abuses those involved in addiction.   

[Seth]

Can you believe that you are saved from the alienation from God ,
while still being involved in your wicked works.?

You left out a key term.

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Yes, we can be alienated from God IN OUR MINDS, not that he is alienated from US.

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The point is that heroin abuse is something that people need salvation from. Ask any family member of a heroin addict and they will tell you the same.

[gregoryfl]

I have shared this with the believers I gather with, that ties together with your thoughts. Adam and Eve, when they sinned, suffered from thinking they were alienated from God, and also were filled with shame at their nakedness, so they hid from him. I see this as the death they brought into the world, a death like a sheet covering the minds and hearts of all after him, as Isaiah 25 plainly says by means of parallelism.

I think it is important to see that Yeshua said 'it is accomplished' BEFORE he physically died, which tells me that what he came to accomplish with regard to Adam, he finished it then...
He died naked, despising the shame, taking that on and conquering it.
He experienced a mind of alienation from God, which is why he cried out 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' This is the only time he ever recorded to not say 'Father' in his prayers.
Just as with Adam, and as you noted, God never abandoned man, or alienated himself from him, it was the other way around.
I see it in that sense only that there was a substitution going on, Yeshua experiencing what Adam and Eve did, and because sin paid wages to a man who did not work for it (Yeshua never gave in to temptation) sin was thus condemned in his flesh, and so he could die physically and thus take all mankind with him into that death, and thus justify all mankind, which would be the basis for being resurrected, since the debt is justified, or paid in full, upon death.
(Rom 6:7)  For he who has died has been freed from sin.
(Rom 4:5) Who was delivered up because of our sins, and was raised because of our justification.

Ronen

[Seth]

I have shared this with the believers I gather with, that ties together with your thoughts. Adam and Eve, when they sinned, suffered from thinking they were alienated from God, and also were filled with shame at their nakedness, so they hid from him. I see this as the death they brought into the world, a death like a sheet covering the minds and hearts of all after him, as Isaiah 25 plainly says by means of parallelism.

I think it is important to see that Yeshua said 'it is accomplished' BEFORE he physically died, which tells me that what he came to accomplish with regard to Adam, he finished it then...
He died naked, despising the shame, taking that on and conquering it.
He experienced a mind of alienation from God, which is why he cried out 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' This is the only time he ever recorded to not say 'Father' in his prayers.
Just as with Adam, and as you noted, God never abandoned man, or alienated himself from him, it was the other way around.
I see it in that sense only that there was a substitution going on, Yeshua experiencing what Adam and Eve did, and because sin paid wages to a man who did not work for it (Yeshua never gave in to temptation) sin was thus condemned in his flesh, and so he could die physically and thus take all mankind with him into that death, and thus justify all mankind, which would be the basis for being resurrected, since the debt is justified, or paid in full, upon death.
(Rom 6:7)  For he who has died has been freed from sin.
(Rom 4:5) Who was delivered up because of our sins, and was raised because of our justification.

I'm not sure how well this ties into what you are saying Ronen, but I believe there is a type/shadow vs reality at work here which resolves much of what scripture says about justification. I see that Christ substituted himself for the lambs, satisfying the debt owed in the Law which was to offer a self sacrifice of a lamb which was, as it turned out, for the remembrance of sin.

The type/shadow is that Jesus died on the cross (something the Law itself did not specifically demand) putting to death the flesh in a physical way, so that man can die in a spiritual way to sin (which is the reality).

This is much different than saying that God is so angry with mankind that is is going to kick some butt, but Jesus stepped in and "paid a debt" so we wouldn't get our butts kicked. Justification is often used as a legal term to say that God cannot now kick our butt because Jesus makes us righteous by proxy, even when we are unregenerate and our works do not follow.

This contradicts much of scripture.

We see something very interesting when we look closer at the term "justification."

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed (daikioo) from sin.

That term "daikioo" is the same root word for "justified," and is actually the same term for "righteous." Paul is defining his meaning of justification here, as being baptized into his death (by the Spirit), walking in newness of life, having the body of sin destroyed so as to serve sin no more, and being dead to sin, and in the context he is using it, freed from sin by the Spirit.

So when I go back to Romans 4:5 I see:

Romans 4:5
Who was delivered up because of our sins, and was raised because of our justification.

You see, he died for our sins so that we may receive forgiveness by way of putting away the Law, but was RAISED for our justification (righteousness, newness of life). The justification therefore occurs by his LIFE, which Paul is revealing in Romans 6, through baptism of the Spirit.

This justification comes through faith because by faith the resurrection of Christ (the Spirit) comes to be an indwelling.

In these terms, I do not see "justification" as a way out of a royal butt whooping by God, but a way out of the wrath of the carnal mind that man is already under, which is why Jesus said that those who do not believe are "condemned (judged) already because they have not believed."

[Seth]

To boil it down: I don't believe the scriptures are meaning to say that Jesus Christ is righteous for us by proxy (ie in our place), but that his own justification/righteousness is worked THROUGH his believers because they have faith, and he does this through the Spirit. And that is what it means to be "righteous" or "justified" by faith, in how Paul defines it as "walking in newness of life."

I believe the Bible is saying that because we were not able to be righteous ourselves, Jesus died (because we were sinful), and was RAISED to make us righteous by himself, through us, to be the author of our salvation from sin through the Spirit.

[gregoryfl]

Yes, no more than anyone should think that Adam was a sinner in our place. The consequencess of his actions were worked through all mankind. Man truly was a sinner from Adam on. Yeshua restored man to the original innocence that Adam had, free of a consciousness of sin, and we have the privilege to tell everyone what he has done for them.

Ronen

[ed]

Hey Seth, great thread.

I had issues with God requiring blood.  In the end I was fine with not calling myself a Christian.  The odd thing is that the relationship that I had with God did not change when I renounced certain Christian doctrine.  I came to the conclusion that God does not care what doctrine we hold, the Spirit is still able to work with us to will and do of it's good pleasure.  I'm oddly not Christian now, but oddly still Christian.  Really just tagging this thread because it is a bold statement to make.  Times they are a changing.

.

[Seth]

Yes, no more than anyone should think that Adam was a sinner in our place.

:thumbsup:

Yeshua restored man to the original innocence that Adam had, free of a consciousness of sin, and we have the privilege to tell everyone what he has done for them.

The way I see it, Jesus is restoring (present tense) man. Freedom from consciousness of sin is accomplished through being free from sin in actuality. In other words, man is not restored to original innocence if still unregenerate in wicked works.

[jabcat]

 A couple of thoughts - not extensive conclusive explanations - thoughts to consider;

without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin;

there's a clear pattern in the OT carried over into the New, of sacrifice, the shedding of blood;

Jesus' death in the NT is called sacrificial;

I don't believe just any man can always just stop using heroin (or any other sin) without the power of the Holy Spirit working within a regenerated spirit.  I don't believe it's "all" in the mind and people just need to "realize" it...it takes a miracle - the new birth.   Just turning over a new leaf won't cut it.  Still just works of the flesh. 

[jabcat]

I'm like Laz in that I'm not ready to say "I don't believe in the substionary atonement".  If so, I think one must be extremely careful (as you've been careful to explain what it is you do believe Seth, in detail); it can be a slippery slope, and without clear explanation, people can get a very wrong idea and wander into things like "the cross wasn't necessary", "Jesus really didn't have to die", etc.  Paul talked of folks "denying the very Lord who bought them".

As Laz, I am willing to take the hell part out of it, EXCEPT, I do believe Jesus' death and resurrection, and then Him Personally applying that to my life through giving me faith to believe/trust in Him as Savior, does 1) make me His child now (miracle, grace, all Him, I can't boast) and 2) gives me the undeserved privilege of sitting with Him in heavenly places, and absolving me from a long period of kolasis anonian (not to say there won't be judgment and I won't lose unrighteous/carnal works - I will - they'll be burned)...but I don't believe anyone spiritually reborn in this life is "reserved for wrath".

So AT LEAST in those regards, I'm very willing still to say Jesus was/is my Sacrifice and Atonement - because He did and does for me things I couldn't, can't, and never will be able to do for myself.  Yes, I believe He took the sins of the whole world upon Him.  There are many nuances I don't understand, and much room for discussion and revelation.  However, spoken on the cross, was "it is finished", tetelestai, an accounting term meaning "paid in full".  He gives me HIS righteousness through the washing of His blood - my righteousness is as filthy rags.

[Seth]

without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin;

Hebrews 9:22
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Yes, remission is definitely the reason for shedding of blood. However, the question at the heart of this is, does Jesus give us his righteousness by PROXY, or THROUGH US?

By proxy suggests that God considers the unregenerate to be righteous because Christ was righteous, but that does cause some Biblical contradictions. For as John said, "be not deceived, those that doeth righteousness are righteous, even as he (God) is righteous."

To clear the conscience, he cleared away the sins committed in the past. A few scriptures come to mind, one that is a few verses back from Hebrews 9:22:

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

2 Peter 1
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Romans 3
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

When we confess our sins, they are blotted out and remembered no more. Justification has gotten confused with forgiveness. When Jesus said "it is finished" that of course does not include his resurrection, days later. Jesus was RAISED because of justification.

I don't really even like the term "justified" that the translators use because people think of it as a legalistic term. Righteousness is what the term means, and Paul is talking about it in terms of being raised with Christ.

Justified = present day walking in newness of life
Forgiveness = blotting out sins which are passed through his faithfulness to forgive when we confess.

The shedding of blood was necessary for Christ to be raised again to make righteous his believers through a walking in steps of faith of father Abraham.

a man cannot always just stop using heroin (or any other sin) without the power of the Holy Spirit working within a regenerated spirit.  I don't believe it's all in the mind and people just need to "realize" it...

Amen. A man abusing heroin is alienated in his mind from God. But, the inner cause of that abuse is the carnal mind itself. Even if getting of drugs by himself, we are all stuck with a carnal mind, which cannot know the things of God, until the Lord chooses to free us.

[Seth]

So AT LEAST in those regards, I'm very willing still to say Jesus was/is my Sacrifice and Atonement

Yes me too. Jesus was treated as a criminal to take the place of the lambs that were required to atone for sin. He did this to forgive sins past, but also to save us from the wrath that is in the carnal mind. It's in God turning man over to a carnal mind to "receive in themselves the due recompense for their error " (Romans 1). That's the wrath revealed from heaven. So mankind was already under that. Jesus saves mankind by changing their minds and takes them out of the wrath they were already under. Jesus did not take upon himself the wrath of a carnal mind and death in sin. He was without sin. What he took upon himself was physical death so that he could be raised because of our justification, thereby putting away the ordinances which were against us (continually exposing our death by sin which Adam brought into the world.)

[jabcat]

Yes, remission is definitely the reason for shedding of blood. However, the question at the heart of this is, does Jesus give us his righteousness by PROXY, or THROUGH US?

By proxy suggests that God considers the unregenerate to be righteous because Christ was righteous, but that does cause some Biblical contradictions. For as John said, "be not deceived, those that doeth righteousness are righteous, even as he (God) is righteous."

I think we believe a lot of the same things, with some possible other things mixed in here and there.   :handshake:

I'll share some thoughts I have on it now, with some of this I'm still searching through and may move a little on yet :).   

It's funny.  I believe strongly in grace (unmerited favor, free gift).  I also believe strongly in obedience and works of surrender.  In fact, to my shame, I've probably spent more time focusing and struggling with works than I have recognizing grace. I DO spend time wondering exactly how it all fits together - even in my own mind - one reason I may move a little on some of it yet.    So "by proxy", no, I don't believe God just looks at the whole world, and only sees His children, "they just don't know it yet".  I believe one must have the experience of being personally given the gift of faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  HIS work in us.  I don't believe most will experience that in this lifetime, for reasons known only to God (I don't understand it).  I believe there are those reserved for wrath, there are haters of God, there are those following other pagan and/or occultic religions that are NOT saved/spiritually reborn yet (they will be) and God does not just look at them and say "oh, they're righteous already because of what Jesus did" (by proxy).  I believe some version of Acts 16:30, 31 must occur first - but here's where we may differ a little.  AT THAT POINT I believe Jesus' righteousness IS imparted, as in, the spiritual new birth occurs.  And that makes one His child, SEALED by the Holy Spirit unto that Day, and that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable".     But then another THEN   :bigGrin: - I DO believe He works His works of righteousness THROUGH us, as you said. 

One thing that puzzles me though is, why some who are given faith to believe on Him as Savior seem to grow in grace and knowledge more or less than others.  Some true believers seem to remain more carnal.  I'm reminded of Paul talking to the Corinthians, who were involved in various types of debauchery within the ecclesia.  He condemned their behavior, gave them a dressing down, said they should remove the one from their midst, not put up with it/take pleasure in it, etc...yet..he..still..called..them...saints.   

Soooo...I think it's possible some just have a "head knowledge" and profess some sort of belief, but haven't really been given the new spiritual birth, are just sort of tagging along, so then their actions and attitudes really wouldn't reveal a true inner change.

Again though, nuances, places here and there for discussion, exploration, revelation...that's just a sort of overview of some things I believe.   I won't go terribly deeply into it right now, but I've really considered the whole salvation in 3 stages;  1)of the spirit (spiritual new birth, being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior  2) of the soul ["who we are"]  ("sanctification", aka growing in grace and knowledge, walking by the Spirit rather than flesh.  Things that stay part of us rather than burned away as chaff at judgment, and we're "rewarded" for)  and 3) the body (mortal swallowed up in immortality)...

Anyway...I'll be quiet and let others talk   :happygrin:

[Seth]

It's funny.  I believe strongly in grace (unmerited favor, free gift).  I also believe strongly in obedience and works of surrender.  I DO spend time wondering exactly how it all fits together - even in my own mind - one reason I may move a little on some of it yet.

Yeah, Peter outright said that Paul's teachings could be difficult to understand. Still working it out myself. But I think talking this stuff out over the past years at Tentmaker and other places has really helped clear some of it up, not everything, but some.  I actually found a verse reconciles Grace with works of Surrender. When I saw it it just blew my MIND. It totally squared away every question I had about the Law and Grace and Works and Grace. Here it is:

Titus 2
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing (paiduo - chastening) us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

WOW! That blew my mind, especially when I found out that "instructing" us is from "paiduo" meaning to chasten. So by Grace...God chastens! He does this unto salvation, from ungodliness.

Why isn't the church teaching this? Rather, they teach this strange amalgamation of grace and Law because there is no teaching of the place that chastening unto good works Grace has. Grace is truly sufficient for all things!

AT THAT POINT I believe Jesus' righteousness IS imparted, as in, the spiritual new birth occurs.  And that makes one His child, SEALED by the Holy Spirit unto that Day, and that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". 

Actually, I do believe this too  :laughing7:. The Calvinists call it the "Perserverance of the Saints" and I actually believe it's true, without the hell doctrine etc.

Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

So, it's all of God and the gifts and calling of God are without revocation. But Peter urges us to make our calling and election sure. Why? I believe because we don't know who the sons of God are (Romans 8 talks about how all creation is waiting to have it revealed). We don't have perfect knowledge of each other or ourselves....so we run the race. We make our election sure.

That creates dependance on God. I say, I am part of the elect....LORD WILLING. No way am I going to make blanket statements like Peter. That's hard medicine he got for trusting himself too much.

One thing that puzzles me though is, why some who are given faith to believe on Him as Savior seem to grow in grace and knowledge more or less than others.  Some true believers seem to remain more carnal.  I'm reminded of Paul talking to the Corinthians, who were involved in various types of debauchery within the ecclesia.  He condemned their behavior, gave them a dressing down, said they should remove the one from their midst, not put up with it/take pleasure in it, etc...yet..he..still..called..them...saints.   

Jesus said many false prophets will deceive many and, if it were possible, the very elect. That's an interesting term: the VERY elect. I think we just don't know who they are yet. If we did, we wouldn't need to run the race, but we very much do. Paul said he had a crown waiting for him because he had been faithful. But he also taught God's sovereignty. I think where the rubber meets the road is in our lack of perfect knowledge compared to God's total sovereignty

Anyway...I'll be quiet and let others talk   

I always love talking to you.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:   :gimmefive:

[Seth]

I read a line that made me laugh and it made the Grace teaching really stick

Here is what God does by Grace: A spiritual spanking whenever you need it, free of charge, unmerited favor, come back for more....

:laugh:

[ed]

Anyway...I'll be quiet and let others talk   :happygrin:

Nice.  I found Christ through Christianity.  I developed, and maintained a relationship with Christ for over two decades.  My faith changed in many ways as I learned more.  Christ led me away from some doctrines and into others.  The relationship deepened through the years, and I eventually found Tentmaker.org several years ago.  UR blew my mind.  Loved it.  Use to be a guy/girl here named Pennrod I think.  Is Pennrod still around?

Anyhows eventually I started questioning blood atonement among other things.  I questioned it to the point that I became willing to deny it as anything that God would have anything to do with.  I knew full well that this was apostasy but still felt compelled in that direction. I am now agnostic about things concerning the person of Jesus Christ.  I still maintain my relationship with God.  It has not changed.  My conclusion is that Christianity is a way to God.  God does not care about the doctrines that we hold or don't hold.  Paul cared......God does not.

.

[dajomaco]

 Freedom from consciousness of sin is accomplished through being free from sin in actuality. In other words, man is not restored to original innocence if still unregenerate in wicked works.

To say you are without sin, means you have already died.
Yet you get up every morning.

There is nothing that you do less today (sin) than you did the day before.
By which you can truly convince yourself, that you are innocent.

The battle is for your mind.
The battle to ignore, the observations of your mind as it battles sin and keeps score..
The battle is  to believe that the battle with sin is an illusion.

God no longer relates to you through your sin score (good or bad ).
Jesus declares us innocent the spirit invading or mind with a vision of our new innocence l 

May God grant this vision so the blind may see.

[Seth]

To say you are without sin, means you have already died.
Yet you get up every morning.

I didn't say being "without" sin. I said, freedom FROM sin. Those are two different concepts. Sin is in the flesh and wars against LOVE.

Freedom from sin is freedom to love the way Christ loves without interruption of the flesh.

God no longer relates to you through your sin score (good or bad ).

I didn't say God is keeping score. God is not accepting the old pot.


Jeremiah 18
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The score keeping of the Law did not make new pots, only revealed the marred condition of the old pot. God makes new vessels by breaking the bond of sin in the mind, making us free to Love the way Christ loves, not of ourselves, but of God.

The battle is  to believe that the battle with sin is an illusion.

Hebrews 12
4You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
           
"MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
            NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

      6FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
            AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

[eaglesway]

Man is carnally minded ad to be carnally minded is death.

Be ye therefore renewed in the Spirit of your mind.

God gave the law to make sin manifest, so man could see it, and chose Life.

While in my mind I agree with the law, that it is good, another law is working in my members. Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

God gave His Son to die, so that all who die with Him, could be raised to walk in newness of life by the Spirit of resurrection.

I have died, and the life I live i the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God who died for me, that I might live in Him


As the serpent was raised up in the wilderness so that all who look upon it might be healed of the poisonous bite of the serpent(to be carnally minded is death)

So also Christ was lifted up so that all who look upon Him, Christ crucified, can be set free from the law of sin and death, having their minds captured by the love of God and transformed by the Spirit.

Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

[Seth]

Amen Eaglesway. And in that above description, I don't see any necessity for the idea of penal substitution and proxy righteousness. Those things serve the Hell doctrine very well, but don't seem to really fit much into the concept of salvation from "dead in Adam" unto salvation through "alive in Christ."

Not to say I don't think Christ literally died on the cross, I very much do. Only to say, it does not seem to fit the paradigm that Jesus took a punishment in our place so that we would not have to experience the punishment. If the judgment is death via the carnal mind, Jesus did not experience that punishment so that we would not have to. See what I mean? He experienced a physical death so that we, through faith, could be rescued from our spiritual death.

True Penal Substitution in this case would be: Jesus Christ became dead in Adam so that would not be dead in Adam. But death in Adam is to be sinful in the mind and dark in the heart which I don't attribute to Christ.

It seems to me, Christ took the place of the lambs (that's the substitution) for our sake and for our sins, so that he could satisfy the Law (one sacrifice of all time), take it down as the barrier between God and man, and then give man spiritual life through faith by his resurrected Life.

Do you see what I mean? I think the proxy righteousness that I see in UR is a holdover from a Penal Substitution doctrine that I don't think holds water anymore, at least with me.

[jabcat]

I'm in the process of praying about this and studying it out, but briefly, IMO, if we don't have Christ's righteousness (right standing) "by proxy", then we don't have it.  Because none of our works, goodness, righteousness etc. are adequate, nor can our right standing be earned - no matter how much we take up our cross, die to ourselves, etc., etc.  Because although those things are about obedience, sonship, overcoming, growing in Him, etc., I don't believe those things give us righteousness.  I believe the atonement of Jesus' death on the cross and that being applied to our lives through the gift of faith to believe on His name is what brings us righteousness, according to scripture.  So how that exactly fits or not with what's being discussed as "substitutionary atonement", I'm not sure.  I do think it's something to not be approached lightly (actually, with fear and trembling).   :2c: