The Meaning Of Christ's Atonement For Sin Without Hell

[jabcat]

I won't argue about it, folks can believe how they're led to believe on it.  I'm not arguing for Reformed, Catholic, or ET doctrine.  As said earlier, I also believe in obedience, surrender, and empowerment by God that leads to His works of righteousness through a believer.   :thumbsup:  However, I definitely do believe the initial things described here -John 1:12  "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God", and Eph. 2:8  "by grace you HAVE BEEN saved, not of works..",   have nothing to do with our works.  It's a gift of God.  Then good works are a result of the renewed, surrendered life - Christ working through the person He has miraculously made His child.

Michael Houdman addresses some of the details better than me...I've edited it for brevity and clarity for this discussion, pardon the paste.  But again, he says what I believe better than I can.  Again, no ongoing argument, just stating how I personally see it.  Blessings. 


"The context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

James and Paul seem to be using the word "justified" in different context/meaning. In Romans 3:28  Paul is using the word justified to mean "declared righteous by God." Paul is speaking of God's legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ's righteousness is applied to our account.   On the other hand, James is using the word justified to mean "being demonstrated and proven."

The NLT translation of James 2:24 reads, "So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone". The entire James 2:14-26 passage is about proving the genuineness of your faith by what you do. A genuine salvation experience by faith in Jesus Christ will inevitably result in good works (Ephesians 2:10). The works are the demonstration and proof of faith (James 2:18). A faith without works is useless (James 2:20) and dead (James 2:17); in other words, it is not true faith at all. Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith will never be alone.

Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone. John 3:16 declares that salvation is given to "whoever believes in Him." Acts 16:31 proclaims, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith." See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other scriptures could be referenced in addition to these.


Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works." - M. Houdman


P.S.  I also do believe that things either standing or burning in His prescence have to do with surrender, obedience, and resultant "good works" (making choices in accord with His will and looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith).   Also rewards and positions of kingdom service enter in.  But I believe our own righteousness and efforts, without God working them through us (empowering us, much of it miraculous because we can't do it ourselves) will never measure up.  That's why we need His righteousness applied to us.  He PURCHASED us.  That means something.  Blessings again.

[micah7:9]

The argument is nullified, "This thread is all about whether or not the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is relevant if Hell does not exist...." hell, as the basis for argument does not exist. :dsunny:

[jabcat]

The argument is nullified, "This thread is all about whether or not the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is relevant if Hell does not exist...." hell, as the basis for argument does not exist. :dsunny:

True micah  lol...i'm not even POSITIVE we're actually on topic - YET of Seth's OP intentions... :punish:     :bigGrin:

I've said my main piece...how 'bout somebody new jumping in?   :dsunny:

[jabcat]

The argument is nullified, "This thread is all about whether or not the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is relevant if Hell does not exist...." hell, as the basis for argument does not exist. :dsunny:

True micah  lol...i'm not even POSITIVE we're actually on topic - YET of Seth's OP intentions... :punish:     :bigGrin:

I've said my main piece...how 'bout somebody new jumping in?   :dsunny:

You know, to me, main things;  Jesus, Son of God, Savior of the world.  The Lamb that was slain to save us.  His Spirit abiding within.  He saves and sustains me because I can't.  God becoming All in All...  Amen?   :handshake:      :msealed:

[micah7:9]

Wow Jab, you are awesome, only cause He gave you the awesomeness......still....
If the rest, who ever they maybe, who believe, who truly believe can or will except your words here, " He saves and sustains me because I can't." BECAUSE I CAN'T there it is, from the blackest of humans to the thought pure human who has no habits or addictions or vices, HE, JESUS SAVES(MAKES WHOLE/HEALS) AND SUSTAINS EACH INDIVIDUAL(me) for His time, BECAUSE I CAN'T!!!!
Man I'm in love and over flowing all over again! :dsunny:

[anna274]

The argument is nullified, "This thread is all about whether or not the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is relevant if Hell does not exist...." hell, as the basis for argument does not exist. :dsunny:

True micah  lol...i'm not even POSITIVE we're actually on topic - YET of Seth's OP intentions... :punish:     :bigGrin:

I've said my main piece...how 'bout somebody new jumping in?   :dsunny:

You know, to me, main things;  Jesus, Son of God, Savior of the world.  The Lamb that was slain to save us.  His Spirit abiding within.  He saves and sustains me because I can't.  God becoming All in All...  Amen?   :handshake:      :msealed:

Re: ..how 'bout somebody NEW jumping in?

I'm not New, I'm OLD -- will not change my thoughts, my prayers, my hopes about the main things that you listed. 

[micah7:9]

And what is your point? The Atonement of Jesus Christ is real but the fabled hell has no basis. There can be no debate or discussion if half of the argument does not exist. :dsunny:

[jabcat]

Amen anna (not amen you're old, but amen believing in those basics of the faith :).   

(micah I think she's just saying she is solid in her beliefs about the "main things" listed   :2c: ... also,, thanks for your kind words, and it blessed me that you were blessed :)

[micah7:9]

Anna, old is not bad, I'm old in the human realm, but with the youth of knowing Jesus loves me, for what ever His reasons, I will age by His will. Should I have cast a shadow about your youth I apologize I meant no offence.
Believe me there is always somebody "new" jumping in, not to worry. :dsunny:

[Seth]

hi James, I totally agree on all the basic points that you just raised. No problem there. I am not in a position to reply to your above post in greater detail but I will try it later on maybe on Sunday night. I do want to observe that James literally said that man is "saved by works and not by faith alone". Martin Luther was the one who said that man is saved by faith alone but that faith is never alone. I believe we are not saved by faith alone but by his LIFE.

you and I have spoken in the past about how salvation is about the miracle not the mental realization or the mental belief. It has to be by his life, by the Spirit, not by faith alone. The Spirit comes to us by faith alone but it's the spirit that actually does the saving work, not "faith alone". in fact the term faith alone does not appear in the Bible except once by James  to say that "we are saved by works and not by faith alone".. we did not earn that spirit by works of the law which I believe is Paul's point in Romans 4. But after we do have the spirit we are to work obedience to save us from trespasses and sin which I believe is James's point. They are both talking about different kinds of works. Paul is talking about works of the law which do not save. James is talking about works of obedience according to the Holy Spirit which does save us from the "moral filth" of "this wicked generation". I am not sure where credited righteousness, or as I have put it proxy righteousness fits in with all that.

Paul literally says also we are saved not by faith alone but "by grace through faith."I have observed in the past that Titus 2 Scripture which says that grace chastises unto good works and James says that good works save us from trespasses because when we are doing good works we are not doing the trespasses. Which I believe is common sense if you really think about it. If we are doing acts of love then we are not doing acts of hate. If we see a brother who is cold and we say we have faith but do not give him a blanket then we are not saved by faith alone because that withholding is essentially a work of iniquity against our brother by keeping him in the cold. Therefore we have not been saved from trespasses in that case, since we are still trespassing against love. I feel like this really does make common sense.

More later when I get a chance

[Seth]

if I were to simplify the difference between Paul and James I would put it this way:

a) We cannot work for the Holy Spirit as a wage earned via the law (Paul's point)
b) when the Spirit does come by faith, works follow unto salvation from transgressions and sin (James' point)


What I am wondering is how does the idea of righteousness credited to our account help anything towards salvation from sin and transgression? What good does it do? What place does it have the above paradigm?

I don't think credited righteousness to our account is necessary for God to forgive us. I think John Calvin thought it was in order to reconcile what he saw was a seemingly irreconcilable contrast between grace and wrath. I believe all that is needed to bring forgiveness for sins committed in the Old Covenant was a lamb and Jesus was that lamb. But the idea of credited righteousness to an account seems to work against the idea of being saved from sins and transgressions themselves.

if Jesus Christ has credited His righteousness to our account then what need do we have of being saved from transgressions? That is what I cannot reconcile.

[eaglesway]

I think forgiveness and faith are separate issues. All were forgiven at the cross (Father forgive them they don't know what they are doing). Some have been given a measure of faith with which to experience the benefit of that forgiveness, fellowship in the love of God, and extend it to others. The evidence of that faith is the consciousness of forgiveness bearing the fruits of restored fellowship with God, among which are manifestations of "faith working through love". Thes are the works of which James spoke, not the dead works of the law, or self-righteousness, concerning which Paul was speaking(as Seth pointed out).

I think that Christians often forget, in their theology, that Paul said, "These three abide, faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love."

Love works as a freely given gift for the recipient of its generosity with no consideration of reward or righteousness.

Grace is God's love poured upon us and working in us.
Faith is the medium within which grace is received and love is expressed in our ways and our works.
The works of faith that God regards are the works "prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them"- expressions of love received by grace and manifesting in faith, which is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast.

IMO, The secret of gold, silver and precious stone....works that will stand the fire and remain upon the foundation(love) and be carried through with the worker for a reward, are the works that sprang forth from a heart of love, without regard for the reward. Works that were given freely and spontaneously, even as the Father gives.

Love is the evidence of faith, not vice versa.

According to Paul it is possible to have great faith, but not walk in love AT ALL.

Is it possible someone could have great love but be lacking in faith?

Only God knows the answer to that question. I think yes, but who am I?

"Who has known the mind of the Lord (nobody :)
Who has been His counselor (nobody :)
Who has given to Him that He should repay (nobody :)
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things(faith working thru love) to whom be the glory(alone) through the ages and beyond, Amen" :o)

We were prepared as a kind of firstfruits of His (new)creation(James), that we might be to "the praise of the glory of His grace"(Paul), a pure lump of dough leavened not with the leaven of the Pharisees(Beware!), but with the leaven of His love......that is the kingdom of God coming near! (Jesus) :o) peace.

[micah7:9]

"The Meaning Of Christ's Atonement For Sin Without Hell" the whole question is an oxymoron, do you,  who ask the question believe in hell? If not, why do you pursue the line of questioning? You have based your query on the idea there is such a thing as hell. Finding debate, discussion, and debate on denominational offerings of a belief of what "they"have established, is but a whirlwind. :dsunny:

[Seth]

no I do not believe in hell.this in itself leads to the question of how well my former doctrine fits in what the scriptures teach about the atonement. I used to believe that Jesus died to credit my account with his righteousness when I have none so that he could get me into heaven. Since I no longer believe in hell I need to reexamine that. What I now believe is consistent with Scripture is not the Christ has credited righteousness into my account, but rather he died as a lamb to put away the law so that he could save people from their own transgressions and sin. If Christ credited my account with his own righteousness this becomes an impossibility because I would have no transgression in the eyes of the Lord therefore he would see nothing to save me from. Since I know that's not true, I am seeking to reconcile the idea of Atonement with the fact that there is no hell and that Christ came to save people from sin itself and transgression itself.

The righteousnessness credit to our account idea usually takes the idea of works out of the equation regarding salvation but that cannot be reconciled with the book of James it just simply cannot.

Our own works cannot earn us the Holy Spirit but the spirit can give us his good works to save us from sin and transgression and that is what I believe James is talking about

[micah7:9]

HE is doing the reconciling, not me or you.
"Since I no longer believe in hell I need to reexamine that. " Why? Just what are you re-examinating if there was nothing there anyway, man's doctrine?
Jesus died to take away the sin of the world(John 1:29) There is the atonement, why do we complicate it.
If hell is man's doctrine and not scripture why do you even care?

[Seth]

HE is doing the reconciling, not me or you.
"Since I no longer believe in hell I need to reexamine that. " Why? Just what are you re-examinating if there was nothing there anyway, man's doctrine?

I am re-examining the concept/doctrine of Penal Substitution insofar as it has created the idea that works cannot save people, or have nothing to do with salvation, and how it created the "faith alone" doctrine.

For example, I want to address Ephesians 2:8-9 by examining some context.

Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But look at the next verse...

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

That last verse is very telling, because Paul first says that Grace is a gift of God not of works. What he means is that we did not work to ATTAIN grace, but we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works which save us from our former darkness.

James is saying that THOSE good works save Christ's faithful from abiding in sin and transgressions.

My point in this thread is that I am challenging the notion that works cannot save people, and that we are saved by "faith alone." The good works created by the Holy Spirit and worked through his faithful save them from the death in sin and transgressions to which they were formerly in servitude.

To me, and I say this will all due humility and respect to anyone who disagrees, that proxy righteousness seems like it would only be a hindrance to that.

[micah7:9]

My  reply from Jan. 11..."The entire doctrine of Jesus being a substitute is from hell[if there were such a thing/place]. But of course this is just an opinion :Peace2: I find that man's theologies take words from man's understanding and then use those words[and man's definition] to then create doctrines which give birth to denominations[which separate] then he is persuaded to join the one that gives him the most peace to his thinking.
The word substitute, like rapture, and trinity are not found in the Bible, for research,(we could ad the words hell and eternity as well) and so without man's speculation, assumption, definition, and his interpretation, we find that we miss the mark. Again  :Peace2:

[jabcat]

So it seems there's actually quite a bit of agreement between several of us, while some variations on details.  How important are those variations?  Not sure.  Maybe not much, as long as the basics of the faith are believed.  For the sake of discussion, iron sharpening iron, thinking out loud, etc., I'll share a few thoughts.

Seth, I shared with you by PM how the precept of "saved in three stages" has helped bring some things together for me personally.  Honestly, with what you've said within your last couple of posts to me, you're pretty much describing that, in my view!

**These are some THOUGHTS for consideration.  I'm NOT declaring all this is perfect doctrine, some of it are things I lean towards, wonder about, seems to "make some sense" to me.  I think there are "gaps" in some of it, but there seems to be some internal bridge-building here for me.  We'll see, and see what you think...

"And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body". Rm. 8:23    I Thes. 5:23  "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

1)   It seems you're saying the initial work ("saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves, not of works, gift of God") is indeed all a work of God through the Holy Spirit.  I agree, and for what I'm sort of understanding, fits with the "first stage", i.e., the spirit saved "simply" and strictly by being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  Done deal.  Child of God.  John 1:12  "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name"... as our President said, "period".  :)   * further connected thoughts below about imputed righteousness

2)  Then when you go on to describe your belief of how that initial faith is given and grace applied, works come into play.  Overcoming.  Faithfulness.  Surrender.  Making choices that fit His will, dying to our will, as He empowers and helps us.  That fits "stage 2" in the "saved in three stages" precept.  The salvation of the soul, or who we are (what will be left and not burned.  What we will keep, be rewarded for, commended for ("well done, good and faithful servant..crown of righteousness laid up for you").

3)  Then finally (though you really didn't address it, but I believe you believe it),  the saving/redemption of the body.    Mortality swallowed up by immortality.  Present with the Lord, new spiritual [for ever] body.  "Stage three" of salvation.


*   There are about 60-70 scriptures that say a believer on Jesus through faith given to believe, is imputed the righteousness of Christ.  I'll list a few, but comment first.  Seth, you asked the question (AND IT ACTUALLY FITS YOUR OP! :), in essence [paraphrasing] why would there be imputed righteousness, where would it fit, if there's no hell?  To my belief, first of all, the scriptures say it is (unless one might make the distinction between imputed and "GIVEN", which might be a better word?).  Secondly, I believe that especially fits with 1 and 3 above - that we CANNOT become children of God without His righteousness given to us.  We in no way have that ability on our own, and it's not done by works.  It's a gift (#1).  For for us to come into His family, become His child, His brother, His blood has to be involved.  And it is, and that's where He gives (imputes?) His righteousness to us.  He then sees us as all those things, considers us as a child "and not a bastard" as Paul said.  Then the way I see it fitting with #3 is, our glorified/spiritual body ["to wit, the redemption of our bodies" - Paul] is only through His righteousness applied to us.



There are many others specific, but here are just a few verses about God GIVING us HIS righteousness;

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 4:3 - For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

1 Corinthians 1:30 - But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 1:17 - For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ephesians 2:9 - Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Romans 4:24 - But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

IMO, NONE of these do away with the idea of overcoming, being faithful, dying to His will, etc.  However, on the other hand, IMO without this free gift noted in the scriptures above, none of the rest of it matters, because our sonship has never begun - and won't until the next age.

(Adapted from Gregory Dickow)  "God saves us in three ways according to 1 Thessalonians chapter 5. God saves us spirit, soul and body. It starts with our spirit. Our spirit is born again, renewed the moment we are given faith to believe on Jesus, "receive Him" as Paul said. Our soul consists of our mind, our will and our emotions. So, our emotions don't get born again. Our spirit gets born again. Our soul has to be renewed, changed, reprogrammed, retaught and retrained from life's influences.  We need to look to Jesus, and teach our soul to obey God and to think and act (with His help) in agreement with the Word of God.

Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and can improve while we're on this earth by taking care of our body and doing God's will.  But our body isn't completely changed until in His presence, when mortality is swallowed up by immortality."



These are thoughts, some of them perhaps tentative beliefs, that are in process for me.  Things I've been given to see to this point.  I know there's a lot more, this just scratches the surface of the results of the cross.

[jabcat]

I am re-examining the concept/doctrine of Penal Substitution insofar as it has created the idea that works cannot save people, or have nothing to do with salvation, and how it created the "faith alone" doctrine...[paraphrase;  "His righteousness imputed hindrance rather than help.."]

Now may I offer a simple answer, after working on that post over an hour?   :laughing7:

because that's how we become a child of God - then, the rest begins... :2c:

Even still though, when "the rest begins", i.e., "walking the walk", I believe micah makes a good point, i.e., He's the one doing the reconciling, sustaining us, etc.   He gives faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God.  Seems to me that even in our struggling to please Him, be obedient, etc., it's still Him giving us what we need  :mshock:   

"It does not depend on the one who wills or runs, but on God who shows mercy";  "He who began a good work in you will complete it", "looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith".... I think of Paul "struggling", fighting flesh/sin...he said he failed..then he said, however, that even so, even though he fell short and he couldn't "measure up", God's grace was sufficient (I see that as he was still a child, God still saw Him that way - he may lose some things, but His spiritual rebirth and being God's child was a sealed deal - the gift was sufficient  ...  blessings. 

[WhiteWings]

I think forgiveness and faith are separate issues.

Forgiveness is part of faith. It's the works of faith. Faith without works is dead/non existant.

[Seth]

*   There are about 60-70 scriptures that say a believer on Jesus through faith given to believe, is imputed the righteousness of Christ.  I'll list a few, but comment first.  Seth, you asked the question (AND IT ACTUALLY FITS YOUR OP! :), in essence [paraphrasing] why would there be imputed righteousness, where would it fit, if there's no hell?

Hi James,
It's good to know we agree on quite a bit. For example, the process is really important.

1. We cannot work to gain the Holy Spirit
2. When the Holy Spirit comes, good works follow to save us from death in transgressions and sin.
3. The Holy Spirit is given to whoever God has chosen, not of him who runs, but God who shows mercy.

As to the above question, I want to clarify because I am not disputing the concept of imputed righteousness. But I want to clarify what "imputed" means. It comes from the Greek "logizomai" which means to "conclude" or "count as."

Let's take Romans 4 as an example, a chapter that I believe is one of the most misunderstood in all the Bible.

Romans 4
11 And he (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also

I do not see, here, in this verse that Christ's righteousness is being imputed in place of our own lack thereof as a legal transaction. What it's saying is that the Gentiles are being counted righteous who have the faith that Abraham had, rather than being under the Law (like the Jews).

But what does it mean to have the faith of Abraham? Check out the next verse:

Romans 4
12 And (Abraham is) the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

This is what Paul is saying makes someone a child of God, not Christ's proxy righteousness, but WALKING in steps of faith of Abraham.

This is where James and Paul are in agreement: WALKING in steps OF faith, not just HAVING faith. That's the difference between works of the Law and works which come by Grace through Faith. The converse of what Paul is saying is that those who do not WALK in steps of faith are not the seed of Abraham, because he didn't just SAY he had faith, he walked in obedience and THAT is why he was righteous before God.

In that way, Romans 4 reconciles with James:

James 2
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

Paul would say "yes" but that Abraham was not justified by works OF THE LAW.

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You see, James is still talking about righteousness by faith. He is just explaining what that means.
A man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Just not by the works of the Law. This is why faith is counted for righteousness. BOTH Paul and James understood the Hebrew concept of faith as being faithful, obedient, loyal, not simply believing a proposition intellectually.

This is why it says Philippians 3:9 "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"

Our OWN righteousness is by the LAW. But the righteousness that is by faith in Christ is God's own righteousness. Here is what Paul said in the previous chapter.

Philippians 2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So, it's not a matter of crediting an account with Christ's righteousness, it's a matter of transfered righteousness: God who works in you. That's the righteousness by faith. That's why it says "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

That's the Holy Spirit MAKING us, forming us like clay in to the righteousness of God. For it is God in you both to will and to work of his good pleasure. This is why Jesus laid upon himself the iniquities of us all. He became the Lamb to forgive all old sins, so that we could be made the righteousness of God through faith.

[jabcat]

So, it's not a matter of crediting an account with Christ's righteousness, it's a matter of transfered righteousness: God who works in you. That's the righteousness by faith. That's why it says "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

That's the Holy Spirit MAKING us, forming us like clay in to the righteousness of God. For it is God in you both to will and to work of his good pleasure. This is why Jesus laid upon himself the iniquities of us all. He became the Lamb to forgive all old sins, so that we could be made the righteousness of God through faith.

There may be more hairs to split here, but I personally don't have a big problem with the above at all, as it sounds like we're either saying the same thing, or something real close in this regard..i.e., I see it as Christ giving us his righteousness, which I certainly agree could be called "transferred" into us...No problem at all with the idea that He makes us a new creature..or, that true new birth brings about change and the evidence (His works of righteousness in and through us) of His faith placed within us...  blessings.

[micah7:9]

I think forgiveness and faith are separate issues.

Forgiveness is part of faith. It's the works of faith. Faith without works is dead/non existant.

True. And it is my reasoning that Grace is the engine that ignites the knowledge of forgiveness which results in faith and that is certainly a first work.

[WhiteWings]

HE is doing the reconciling, not me or you.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/conciliation-and-reconciliation/msg67180/#msg67180

[dajomaco]

Christ had a righteousness that
left him the ability to talk to and hear from God his father.

WE have been given a righteousness that
gives us the ability to talk to and hear from God our Father.

You have to have a clear conscience to go boldly in to the throne room of God
looking for your Father.

You can have a clear conscience through faith in Jesus.
You can go into the throne room thinking and believing the only reason,
That the Father would entertain any of your request was because of his satisfaction
with his son .

When ever I add works with faith it weakens my ability to stand in the thronroom