Faith, works and grace

[WhiteWings]

So it's possible that a loving satanist does saving works?
Doesn't that edge a teeny weenie towards the new age Universalism?

[redhotmagma]

Well here is where we get into some "sticky" theology.  :winkgrin:  First of all, many who reject Jesus are not actually rejecting JESUS, imo. They are rejecting the absurdity of "christian" theology and hypocrisy.

Christ is the WORD of God. Christ is the Light. He is the light that enlightens EVERY man that comes into the world. When He speaks to someone (whether they know it's Him or not) and they obey His word, are they not being faithful to Christ? Are "christians" who go by His name actually faithful to Christ if they are not following the light (Love)? No, because even the demons believe Jesus is the Son of God (and tremble).

:thumbsup:

WW:

He causes rain (the HS) to fall on the just and the unjust.  There is one fountainhead of love flowing over all men.  Many are still veiled to the reality that they have been raised to life in that river, but are still affected by the river, as it flows through the logos, the seed in men.

A satanists works that were done through love will not be burned up, that is the law to them.  That doesn't "get em in to heaven" cus we know thats not what salvation is really about.  Works to salvation re translated into Works unto healing.  The concept of salvation is so distorted that we think of being saved by works means not going to hell.

[jabcat]

Jeremy, your post contains several summary points contained (at least in part) in other various views that I wonder about;

isn't the scripture "God rains on the just and unjust" talking about His physical, temporal/earthly blessings (food, clothing, sunshine, etc.)? 

My understanding is that anyone not yet personally drawn by the Holy Spirit and given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, is not as yet spiritually reborn, rather than they just need to realize that they are.  I believe they need their personal encounter with the Savior, where their sins are washed away and their spirits renewed.

:2c:

[lomarah]

Well here is where we get into some "sticky" theology.  :winkgrin:  First of all, many who reject Jesus are not actually rejecting JESUS, imo. They are rejecting the absurdity of "christian" theology and hypocrisy.

Christ is the WORD of God. Christ is the Light. He is the light that enlightens EVERY man that comes into the world. When He speaks to someone (whether they know it's Him or not) and they obey His word, are they not being faithful to Christ? Are "christians" who go by His name actually faithful to Christ if they are not following the light (Love)? No, because even the demons believe Jesus is the Son of God (and tremble).

:thumbsup:

WW:

He causes rain (the HS) to fall on the just and the unjust.  There is one fountainhead of love flowing over all men.  Many are still veiled to the reality that they have been raised to life in that river, but are still affected by the river, as it flows through the logos, the seed in men.

A satanists works that were done through love will not be burned up, that is the law to them.  That doesn't "get em in to heaven" cus we know thats not what salvation is really about.  Works to salvation re translated into Works unto healing.  The concept of salvation is so distorted that we think of being saved by works means not going to hell.

:thumbsup:
Awesome stuff Jeremy, that's basically exactly what I was going to say. We are being saved from sin and death. (Not "hell", although being slaves to sin is certainly not fun.  :winkgrin: ) We are being set free from dead works (caused by sin), unto true faith works. When we hear His voice telling us to do something, setting us free (the voice of Truth), and we believe and obey that voice, whether we know His "name" (Jesus) or not, we are still being obedient to His voice.

CERTAINLY it is better to KNOW Him personally!!! There is no argument there. BUT He is the Saviour of ALL, especially of those who believe. So are there atheists hearing His voice and doing works of love? I would think definitely so.

[jabcat]

When we hear His voice telling us to do something, setting us free (the voice of Truth), and we believe and obey that voice, whether we know His "name" (Jesus) or not we are still being obedient to His voice. 

CERTAINLY it is better to KNOW Him personally!!! [Really?  Scripture says that's the ONLY way].    So are there atheists hearing His voice and doing works of love? I would think definitely so.

I'm from Missouri (the Show-Me state).   :laugh:   Can you show me scripturally your beliefs presented above, taking into account various related scriptures?  Because I see this;  "there's no other NAME under heaven by which we MUST be saved", and "call upon the NAME of the Lord".  Also "how can they believe in Him whom they have not heard?".

IMO, there's always a danger of either being too legalistic, or, watering things down into a "mush gospel" (Shamedly, I've done both).  But I believe the truth's in the middle, and it's not what we think - it's what do the scriptures say, rightly divided, Spirit revealed.  (disclaimer - there's MUCH I don't know and need revelation on - in fact, sometimes I think I "know"/understand little else besides Jesus and Him crucified and risen).  Anyway, thanks :).

[redhotmagma]

Christ died once for all therefore all have died. And have been reconciled before the foundation of the world. All are a part of that act. Those who haven't been called to life do not know that they have been included. They are still enemies in their minds not "saved" yes there is a distinction. And I disagree that the rain just means literal rain. As the spirit is repeatedly related to water.

[jabcat]

Christ died once for all therefore all have died. And have been reconciled before the foundation of the world. All are a part of that act. Those who haven't been called to life do not know that they have been included. They are still enemies in their minds not "saved" yes there is a distinction. And I disagree that the rain just means literal rain. As the spirit is repeatedly related to water.

I should know better than to say "I've said about all I want to say.."   :mblush:  We may just see some of this differently, but this can be a fruitful discussion.  It will force me to look at things more closely if nothing else, thanks.  :)

:2c:  My current understanding,  I believe the primary sense is that believers, the elect, are chosen before the foundation (though in a broader sense, God has us all in mind, as He "so loved the world..").    I believe most are still estranged from God - not just in mind, but are literally spiritually dead - until their rebirth.  I personally understand the body of relevant scripture to indicate that.

So do you believe it's just in their mind, that they just don't realize it yet?  I know there are various allusions to the mind being renewed, but I don't believe that's the whole, rightly divided, showing "everyone's already in Christ" -  as for one thing, it's often talking about those who already believe.     Maybe we're saying similar things differently, not sure.   :handshake:

I agree and didn't say rain [always] just means literal rain.  But in the specific context quoted, I believe it primarily does mean something more akin to blessings, so I personally can't use that to understand "everyone's saved, they just don't know it" (and again, maybe that's not what you're saying either).    I believe Jesus did everything necessary for everyone to be saved, all just haven't been called and given the faith to believe yet - which IMO means some are currently children of God and some are currently children of the devil  I John 3:10.   God is reconciled to mankind, but I don't believe all of mankind is as yet reconciled to God  (2 Cor. 5:20).     (And of course, it's by grace, the free gift, no one can boast.)

[sheila]

 the first  Adam..natural man is also a sonof God........manhas both good[only Godisgood]and evil

in him. those who love have been born of God...... now,itis true that Jesus said..wemust

be born again from above.. fo rwe have no life in us.[coz good/evil mix is death....]....

  we must be all God with no evil in us.  all of us.perfect..as our Father is perfect..

     God called i tgood....the creature..before it was subjected to vnity........

    Adam was a sonof God,also Jesus....... a little evi lspoils much good.....

[Tom]

Christ died once for all therefore all have died. And have been reconciled before the foundation of the world. All are a part of that act. Those who haven't been called to life do not know that they have been included. They are still enemies in their minds not "saved" yes there is a distinction. And I disagree that the rain just means literal rain. As the spirit is repeatedly related to water.

I should know better than to say "I've said about all I want to say.."   :mblush:  We may just see some of this differently, but this can be a fruitful discussion.  It will force me to look at things more closely if nothing else, thanks.  :)

:2c:  My current understanding,  I believe the primary sense is that believers, the elect, are chosen before the foundation (though in a broader sense, God has us all in mind, as He "so loved the world..").    I believe most are still estranged from God - not just in mind, but are literally spiritually dead - until their rebirth.  I personally understand the body of relevant scripture to indicate that.

So do you believe it's just in their mind, that they just don't realize it yet?  I know there are various allusions to the mind being renewed, but I don't believe that's the whole, rightly divided, showing "everyone's already in Christ" -  as for one thing, it's often talking about those who already believe.   :2c:  Maybe we're saying similar things differently, not sure.   :handshake:

I agree and didn't say rain [always] just means literal rain.  But in the specific context quoted, I believe it primarily does mean something more akin to blessings, so I personally can't use that to understand "everyone's saved, they just don't know it".    I believe Jesus did everything necessary for everyone to be saved, all just haven't been called and given the faith to believe yet - which IMO means some are currently children of God and some are currently children of the devil  I John 3:10.   God is reconciled to mankind, but I don't believe all of mankind is as yet reconciled to God  (2 Cor. 5:20).     (And of course, it's by grace, the free gift, no one can boast.)

It is my understanding that the "rebirth" Christ spoke to Nicodemus about referred to Israel in the coming millenium while we in the body of Christ are a "new creation."

"Jesus answered and said to him, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten anew, he can not perceive the kingdom of God."" (John 3:3)

"1 We have found an unholy temple, an unspiritual priesthood, and now we are introduced to an ignorant teacher! Intense application to a single text book for a whole life had not taught him the elements of the truth! Nicodemus, however, was impressed with the Lord's works, little as he understood His words. Like the rest, he takes literally what is figurative. He should have known from Ezekiel, the prophet, that Israel could not enter the kingdom without a new spirit (Eze.36:26).
     Spiritual regeneration, the one imperative condition, apart from which the kingdom cannot be entered, is utterly beyond his erudition. All that he considered vital was physical relationship with the favored nation.
     The Lord did not give out regeneration as good news, but as bad news. This is not the gospel, even for the Circumcision. The evangel is always concerned with God and His Christ, never with man and his needs or efforts. Of the latter nothing good can be said, no evangel can be formulated. The new birth is not an evangel in any sense. It makes a demand he has no means of meeting.
     For one like Nicodemus, expecting to enter the kingdom by physical generation, it would be quite a blow to demand spiritual regeneration. Men are utterly helpless in regard to their physical generation. They can do no more to accomplish their spiritual regeneration. It is the sovereign work of God's spirit.
     Searching as the figure is, it does not probe nearly so deeply into human helplessness as the truth for the present economy of God's grace. Now, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation (2 Co.5:17). In spirit, we skip the era of the kingdom, the renascence, and enter the new creation, over a thousand years later. A new birth will fit them for a life on earth during the millennial eon. The new creation fits us for our celestial destiny. They will receive a rejuvenation of the faculties, we will be changed at the resurrection and receive powers and capacities far beyond our present possibilities. Regeneration keeps company with repentance and baptism. The new creation accompanies the dispensation of the conciliation (2Co.5:18)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 143)

"So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!" (2 Corinthians 5:17)

"16 Paul had been proclaiming the kingdom, with Christ and the nation which is related to Him by physical ties at its head. Entrance into that kingdom was by a birth from above. But now the figure of birth is not radical enough to denote the great change. Just as, after the day of the Lord, heaven and earth will be re-created so is the spiritual change which took place at this juncture. There is a new creation. Paul never connects the new birth with his teaching to the nations. It suffices to figure the change necessary for the sons of Israel and their proselytes, fitting them for the earthly millennial sphere. For us, far more is needed. Like Adam, we are not a mere renewal in kind, but an entirely new creation." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 271)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/newbirth.html

I hear folks talk about being "spiritually dead," but I don't remember ever reading about it in scripture. I think folks can have a spirit of stupor, but I don't think they can be spiritually dead because spirit is the power of life that returns to God when the body dies.

"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

"What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. (Romans 11:7,8)

"But, according as it is written, That which the eye did not perceive, and the ear did not hear, and to which the heart of man did not ascend --
whatever God makes ready for those who are loving Him. Yet to us God reveals them through His spirit, for the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God. For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God. Now we obtained, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we may be perceiving that which is being graciously given to us by God, which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words. Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined." (1 Corinthians 2:9-14)

[jabcat]

I hear you about Christ's SPECIFIC statement to Nico, its context, etc....however, I believe there are also other references/issues, that have their own context and meaning, and I believe it's that if we're not made alive (through the gift of faith to believe on the Savior), we're still spiritually dead.

To the believers in  Colossae ("probably" a mixture of Jews and Gentiles)      "12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross...."

[Tom]

I hear you about Christ's SPECIFIC statement to Nico, its context, etc....however, I believe there are also other references/issues, that have their own context and meaning, and I believe it's that if we're not made alive (through the gift of faith to believe on the Savior), we're still spiritually dead.

To the believers in  Colossae       "12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross...."

I believe we were "dead" and are "roused" "through faith" figuratively speaking, but I don't say "spiritually dead." I don't believe spirit dies because it is the power of life. I believe death is a return. The body returns to the soil; the soul returns to the unseen; and the spirit returns to God.

"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:  It is an interesting discussion and something to think about.  I do ponder it, the whole spirit aspect of it...at some point it's too big for me at current levels.   :laugh:

[Tom]

:thumbsup:  It is an interesting discussion and something to think about.  I do ponder it, the whole spirit aspect of it...at some point it's too big for me at current levels.   :laugh:

We're all just students, bro, trying to be perfected. The word of God is an amazing thing to study.

[eaglesway]

To be saved means to be delivered. "Be saved from this perverse generation."(Acts 3) IMO, To be saved now is a different issue than the judgment of the great Day. One can only be saved(delivered) now through the name of Jesus(There is only one name given under heaven by which a person may be saved, the name of Jesus Christ(acts 4:12).

However, one of the foundations of ET doctrine is that if you are not saved now you will go to hell on "the Day". I think this is an error- whether it is held by ET or UR believers.

Those who are saved(delivered) now hav passed from death unto life.

Everyone else will be judged in the Day, as it is written in Romans 2, "Their conscience will either excuse them or accuse them on the DAY God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ."

What does this mean, we do not need Jesus to be saved? Or does it mean a Muslim can be saved on "the DAY" without Christ?

No.

IMO it means that God judges all men by the secrets of the hearts- NOW for those who hav already entered the Day, (we are judged/discerned by the love of Christ every day we live) everyone else will be judged before the Great White Throne- which we are given very little information about.

As I read it, those who did not hav the law of God will be judged by the law that is written on every heart, "the light that lights everyone who comes into the world".
According to Romans 2 they are a law unto themselves.

Some of them will rejoice to see Jesus(they walked as a law unto themselves). Some will recoil at his sight(they did not walk in the light they had).

Their are Muslims who take care of their parents because it is their law- not because they love their parents. Ther are Christians, Jews, Hindus, atheists, etc- that do the same. Only God knows the secrets motivations of the hearts, and when the love is real or just duty or religion.

It is clear from the scriptures that good works can be done for dead reasons- the only benefit is to the person receiving such works- the person giving receives no benefit if their motives are dead. "If you give alms to be seen, you have received your reward. Let not your right hand kno what your left hand is doing.When you giv, giv in secret, God who sees in secret will reward you openly."(Now and in the Day)

We cannot sort it out here- that is an affront to Christ in my opinion.

Say not, "I will ascend into heaven"- that is to bring Christ down. Say not, "I will descend into the pit, "That is to bring Christ up from the dead". But the word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, that word of faith which we preach- that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be delivered/healed/saved(saved NOW.)

I personally believe that the teaching that everyone who is not saved now will face kolassis is an ET based doctrine that denies the scriptures. For me Romans 2 is clear. The parable of the Good Samaritan is also clear. Some who think they hav salvation based in what they "know" and "believe" will face kolassis(the Pharisee & the Levite)- this is clear as well. Some who do not know but live as if they believe because in their hearts they have the witness that Romans 1 and John 1 plainly declare is given to everyone who comes into the world -and they lived by it(the Samaritan).

There is no place in the scriptures that I kno of that says we are to separate the sheep from the goats or the wheat from the chaff by our knowledge or beliefs. WHile we can declare that the Muslim gospel is false and that the Muslim faith is demonic- IMO, we can not judge every Muslim by that knowledge. Only God knows the secrets of each persons heart.

:2c:

That kind of judgment is reserved for Jesus Christ alone on the Day.

[WhiteWings]

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

I was just stating my opinion, but I believe the scriptures support my opinion that anything that does  not come from love(God is love) is dead works.

I think it's not that simple. Maybe there are 2 sets of good works?
Let's say one set which is about entering heaven is Christ based.
The other set is not.

In other words all good works are good works but not all are getting you in heaven.
Just like all faith is faith but not all gets you in heaven.
Living-faith vs dead-faith
Living-good-works vs dead-good-works

:2c:

[jabcat]

First of all John, I agree with a lot of what you say here, some of it I think might be true but I'm just not quite pulling it all together right now, and some of it I have questions about.

To be saved means to be delivered.   "Be saved from this perverse generation."(Acts 3)

I believe it has other meanings/applications as well.  "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".  Acts 16:31

One can only be saved(delivered) now through the name of Jesus(There is only one name given under heaven by which a person may be saved, the name of Jesus Christ(acts 4:12).

Yes, agreed.  I believe that's scriptural.  I also believe it's scriptural that's the only way ANYONE can be saved - whether this age or the next - by being given faith to believe on Jesus (every tongue confess Jesus is Lord). 

Some of these things I just think about myself, wonder about, and haven't reached definitive "satisfaction" on, are things others have intimated (or I've perceived that way) along the way, so I'll lump it all in here together and maybe some light can be shed, some things clarified, and blanks filled in.        John said no one can be saved without Jesus, and I agree.  But I wonder if some might look at Romans 2 (or for whatever reason decide they think it's just the way it is), and say many might be saved by somehow reacting to their conscience, to some light they have - because they unknowingly knew Him?  And so they'll just be "accepted in" based on their good conscience and good deeds.     Or this one, which may have some merit?;  many with a good conscience and kind heart, etc., will be more ready and in a closer position of acknowleding Him as Savior..  Not that their works has "earned" them a "pass" (given them spiritual new birth, i.e., passed from death unto life) but they're "rewarded" ("excused") for following an "inner voice", in that faith and belief for them is more easily attained?  EDIT/ADDITION [few stripes/many stripes?  But then why would a reborn believer, raised to life, seated in the heavenlies with Christ receive any stripes?  Are we sure Jesus' words about rewards, works, and stripes didn't at least have something specifically   to do with the end of that age of LAW, since all those words were spoken to Jews prior to the cross??  Or maybe "in that day" really did mean in that Day, i.e., the consummation).    :Chinscratch: 

John, you said believing that someone goes to "hell" (or even kolasin aionian, temporary corrective discipline) on the day of judgment is an ET concept and error.  You also said someone saved (spiritually reborn - my interpretation) in this life has passed from life unto death.  So do you (or anyone) believe then there is no correction at all for those folks?  (yet as far as I know, all who live in this flesh of clay still carry sin with them).  I've seen that view, that basically death and the loss of the literal flesh = "judgment over, salvation accomplished".  I don't believe you believe that John, but how do you see it?      Do you/we/anyone think it's just quickly burned away/falls away without consequence?    :dunno2:     

Bottom line for me, if there's no clear-cut "way to tell" if myself (or anyone) is a believer, spiritually reborn, a child of God through Jesus Christ, then it all gets pretty murky and nebulous.  What's the Good News?  Is it Jesus Christ and Him crucified and risen, and that's the only name by which we must be saved and "how can they believe in whom they have not heard, and how can they hear unless someone tells them"?   I thought and think so.   "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?  Believe on the Lord Jesus...".  It's an urgent matter.  "Be ye reconciled to God"!      I just can't believe at this time that it's a mish-mash of works, conscience, no way to tell until that Day.  If it's all so gray and we can only wait and see, why is "believe in JESUS, call on the NAME of the Lord and you will be saved" even in the scriptures?     And why is this in there?  "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the  1 children of God and the 2 children of the devil are obvious".   

Do you/I/we/anyone believe God judging us on the secrets of our hearts means that Jesus and faith on Him as Savior has nothing to do with that?  That there might be secret believers, who don't even know they're believers, because they have no idea who Jesus is (despite "how can they call on whom they have not heard, and how can they hear unless someone tells them" Rom. 10:14,15?), but they don't have a guilty conscience so ....what exactly?   Will God say to a nice unbelieving pagan who helped little ladies cross the street and never stole anybody's milk money, "well done good and faithful servant, you were a law unto yourself.  Enter in to the joy prepared for you"?   

I'm gonna go study on this, because I believe it's "believe and confess the Lord Jesus", and "there's no other name", and "I am the way..no one comes through the Father but by Me".  But I'll admit, Romans 2 fits in there somewhere.  I just believe it and all the other scriptures about belief in Jesus and grace not works etc. must reconcile. 

[jabcat]

1 I believe the scriptures support my opinion that anything that does  not come from love(God is love) is dead works.

Maybe there are 2 sets of good works?
Let's say one set which is about entering heaven is Christ based.
The other set is not.

In other words all good works are good works but not all are getting you in heaven.
Just like all faith is faith but not all gets you in heaven.
Living-faith vs dead-faith
Living-good-works vs dead-good-works

I think these 2 statements are cutting into the heart of the matter of all that I posted above.

[WhiteWings]

To be saved means to be delivered.   "Be saved from this perverse generation."(Acts 3)

I believe it has other meanings/applications as well.  "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".  Acts 16:31

No. It's exactly the same thing. That's one of the implications of my 1st post.

[jabcat]

I'm really mainly saying I don't think it just means "saved or delivered from trouble".  I believe it also has to do with "once dead in trespasses and sins, now made alive" - regeneration, not "just" deliverance/healing.  I believe - and maybe you're saying - it's all of that.

[WhiteWings]

It's all of that because:

Belief if Jesus IS required. But that's dead faith if the good works are lacking.
Belief in Jesus is required to wash away sins but it requires some sort of repentance in this life/stage. Repentance without at least trying to improve is dead-repentance is no repentance at all.
Jesus was preaching the laws of the Father. All Father does equals life so His laws are life giving. So it all fits in what I said earlier. A package deal.
It's not about believing in Jesus.
It's not about about giving to charity.
It's not about repenting.
It's not about improving.
It's about all that combined.
And then just one component is lacking... grace.

Quoting myself about the package:

I see works and faith as a package deal. Because everyone, except Jesus, fails/failed to have a 'perfect package' so only grace will save us.
A little note about grace. Grace is often to be thought to be God showing compassion etc. But that's possibly not exactly what it means.
When someone was in debt he was 'enslaved'. When his debt got paid he was a free man again. Sin=debt. Jesus paid our debt. When someone was bought free s/he was said to be under grace. So grace is a legal transaction paid by Jesus. But that understanding isn't really needed in this post. The point is that our faith and works never perfect enough to earn/deserve/receive/.... a spot in everlasting life. The missing bits are provided by Father through His Son.

[redhotmagma]

EW  :thumbsup:

[Tom]

God is the savior of all mankind.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

There are three classes to be "saved" from death. Christ has already been immortalized. We in "the body of Christ" are next when he meets us in the air, and the rest of mankind will be "saved" from death at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.

"20 Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:20-26)

We are "saved" because of God's grace not our works.

"8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

God chose some of us to be in Christ before the disruption of the world.

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,
4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
5 in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will" (Ephesians 1:3-5)

We are not justified by our works but through Christ.

"18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)

The value of our works will be determined at the Dais, but that is not about our salvation.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil023.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement017.html

[jabcat]

God is the savior of all mankind.

We are "saved" because of God's grace not our works.

We are not justified by our works but through Christ.

The value of our works will be determined at the Dais, but that is not about our salvation.

Thanks for that Tom.  I've had a bit to say in the 2 recent threads, but truth is, some things I believe and hold fast to ("I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but through me" - Jesus,  and "by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves..not works but the gift of God").  The truth is that there are things about the 2 topics I'm really not clear on/sure of, and am questioning, seeking, and wishing to understand.  On the other hand, I believe all that we know or think we know boils down to this;  the Person, Jesus, Savior of the world.  Amen. 

[Tom]

God is the savior of all mankind.

We are "saved" because of God's grace not our works.

We are not justified by our works but through Christ.

The value of our works will be determined at the Dais, but that is not about our salvation.

Thanks for that Tom.  I've had a bit to say in the 2 recent threads, but truth is, some things I believe and hold fast to ("I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but through me" - Jesus,  and "by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves..not works but the gift of God").  The truth is that there are things about the 2 topics I'm really not clear on/sure of, and am questioning, seeking, and wishing to understand.  On the other hand, I believe all that we know or think we know boils down to this;  the Person, Jesus, Savior of the world.  Amen.

I think any suggestion that we somehow earn our salvation just dishonors Christ's sacrifice on the cross. That is what determined our salvation. That is why God is conciliated to mankind. It is our responsibility to share that fact with those who have not been conciliated to God.

[jabcat]

Thanks Tom.  In the meantime, I was typing this.  (Your name's in it.  :).

First of all John, I agree with a lot of what you say here,So let me see if I'm anywhere close to understanding your view on this, IMO, quite complicated subject

I'm gonna go study on this, because I believe it's "believe and confess the Lord Jesus", and "there's no other name", and "I am the way..no one comes through the Father but by Me".  But I'll admit, Romans 2 fits in there somewhere.  I just believe it and all the other scriptures about belief in Jesus and grace not works etc. must reconcile.

Well John, after sleeping on this, I recall a conversation you and I had where we found some agreement/understanding about Romans 2.  That even though good works cannot save/redeem/give anyone the spiritual new birth resultant of bowing and confessing Jesus when they're drawn and given faith to do so, that it has to do with "few stripes/many stripes".  Which again brings up the whole judgment aspect, i.e., who gets what...and that's up to God.  He knows.            Related questions then might be;   what's the [general] difference between judgment of unbelievers and believers (Tom?), and what are the benefits of the Good News now in this age, and having been called into the ecclesia vs. living for the devil as one's father?   A thought that occurs - it's as God wills.  According to His plan.  And He knows why some are used one way and one another.   Yet we are told to share the Good News, and Paul said "be reconciled to God", and the jailer had a desparate need to be saved;  "gentleman, what must I do to be saved"...           As I've thought about all this, I do know the main focus needs to be on HIM.  Blessings.