Faith, works and grace

[WhiteWings]

  PS
  The dead works seems to be focusing on  repentance   of sin and not being able to get past that ???

Plz read reply #15.
Giving alms never is a sin. The reason why make sit dead works.  :2c:

the six elemental teachings  , I only have5


  1  repentance 
2Faith in God  3 baptisms    4  laying on hands / healing    5 resurrection from the dead

  I am not sure what six /6  is
  do you  know ?   thanks

That's way above my pay rate dear Rosey  :winkgrin:

I do have a few "groups of 7"  and more "groups of 4"
I do know all the groups of 4 end with marriage.
Perhaps that's what you are looking for?

[ded2daworld]

Is giving an elemental teaching? :dontknow:

[Tom]

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

The classic verse. But of no use if the words aren't understood.
Anyway it doesn't contradict what I wrote in the slightest.


(Btw if like the word approach in that verse)

My post was not meant to "contradict" what you wrote,

To be honest I can't even remember if I assumed you did (not).
It's just that certain verses often are used as the ulitimate proof to support a view.
When I see such a verse, I get on my  :soap: and start  :blahgreen: :blah:

but to clarify that it is "in grace, through faith, are you saved... not of works." When you say that "those without works never are saved," it needs to be clarified that the "works" being referred to are the effect of salvation not the cause.

I find that  a bit difficult Tom. It's a bit like the what came first. The chicken or the egg.
Good works can only come through faith. But faith can only be when the mentioned works are 'alive'.
That's not a debate. It's something I truly can't comprehend.
That's why I took the safe route and called it a package deal. Today on my way to work I thought about it and decided it's not complete.

My current view is:
When we get born we receive an empty box. When it's filled with works through faith at death we are saved. Only Jesus' box was completly full. Ours is not. Never. Father adds grace until the box is full.
Does that qualify as the happy thought of the day?

We are motivated to do good "works" by the love of God that inspires us to do so because we know God loves us and intends for us to share his love with others. Our salvation is a free gift from God that we don't earn. Nobody is worthy of it, but God is gracious. That's why eventually all mankind will be saved from death at the consummation of the eons, even those who seemed to be the worst of sinners. So "lest anyone should be boasting" about their "works," never forget that is only by the grace of God that any of us are saved.

Fully agree with that.

I used to wonder about the chicken and egg too until I decided to quit believing in evolution and believe the word of God. Now I know Yahweh Elohim created the chicken from which the egg came.

The distinction of Paul's evangel is salvation in grace through faith. We of the nations have been saved according to Paul's evangel. That's why it's important not to mix the two evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision which is exactly what church doctrine has done. That's why folks get confused about things like "works." Belief that Christ died for our sins and was roused from the dead is how we are saved, and we believe that because God has given us faith to believe it not because we deserved it any more than unbelievers. It is simply God's will that we have been chosen for eonian life.

"according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will" (Ephesians 1:4,5)

None of us is worthy. We all have sinned, but we have been justified by the blood of Christ. Those who have not been chosen for eonian life will be justified not through faith but through judgment before the great white throne. So, at the consummation of the eons, all will be justified, reconciled, vivified, and subjected to God so "that God may be all in all." That is the ultimate goal of God that church doctrine refuses to acknowledge because it propagates salvation through works that is simply an offer of salvation which must be accepted according to church doctrine and tradition. Christ did not die so that salvation could be offered and earned. Christ died so that all mankind would be saved according to God's will, some when Christ returns, and the rest at the consummation of the eons.

"He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also." (1 John 2:2)

"for this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

[eaglesway]

Here is how I see it. :)

True faith is believing what the Spirit reveals to you, personally, whether it be through the written word (scriptures), through a personal word (Him speaking to your heart), through a prophet (prophetic word), or whatever it may be. (Heck He even speaks through donkeys at times.  :laughing7: ) True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.

I wonder if the works is the fruit then is the seed the word, and faith the water that brings the seed (word) to fruition?  :dontknow:

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

By faith we know the worlds were framed by the word of God.

and that(faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

faith which works by love.


I think that your analogy is perfect. God gives the seed. God gives the rain. God gives the fruit. The works that are pleasing to God arise out of love. "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart....and your neighbor as yourself....on these two hang all the law and the prophets."

Whatever we do that is not out of love for God and love for our neighbor is dead.

Only God knows the secrets of our hearts.

[Tom]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement017.html

[Graph1159]

From my experiences, there have been times in my life in which I became aware that if I did not do something, I would be consciously forfeiting my faith. Likewise, I feel that if I were to commit certain acts, I could not also be believing in Christ as my Savior from sin at the same time. Of course, there are times when I yield to temptations without my mind being fully conscious of the implications of the act. And I'm sure there are times when I don't do things that I should do because I am not fully aware of God's will in a particular situation. I don't think that these instances put my salvation in jeopardy because salvation is by grace through faith.  But having faith does put some constraints upon my life.

[rosered]

  PS
  The dead works seems to be focusing on  repentance   of sin and not being able to get past that ???

Plz read reply #15.
Giving alms never is a sin. The reason why make sit dead works.  :2c:

the six elemental teachings  , I only have5


  1  repentance 
2Faith in God  3 baptisms    4  laying on hands / healing    5 resurrection from the dead

  I am not sure what six /6  is
  do you  know ?   thanks

That's way above my pay rate dear Rosey  :winkgrin:

I do have a few "groups of 7"  and more "groups of 4"
I do know all the groups of 4 end with marriage.
Perhaps that's what you are looking for?

Thanks for your reply WW

  Well dead works is a     result of staying in the  law of Moses / or  teaching of religious law  to me because its the  ministration of death  and letter of the law  , being'' the knowledge of sin ''  aware of it , yet   they do not do this themselves , 
  what good is law keeping if you  make others do  what your not willing to do yourself ?

  I can eat an applewood Bacon lettuce and tomato   sandwich and not feel guilty of it  or consider it sinning  , only because   I have  faith  that Jesus taught  what defiles us is not what goes in to us , but what comes out of us , namely our hearts ,  you can eat  all things   if its with thanksgiving to God for it [Romans 14]

for the the elemental teaching of giving alms is in the same catagory of '' showing mercy ''   
or just judging what is right   to me

  I really believe the changes are  done from being  changed   from  a carnal creature to a spiritual creature   , as God    births     these new creatures in Christ  , with a new heart and name ,  the laws are  different in the sense 
of  natures      to me   Love being the main   expression to all   life universally in and though Christ / annoiting
  because the carnal in nature struggles with  love   and self

   I was only  looking into Hebrews 6  for those named elemental   teachings    :gimmefive:
lots I just dont  understand admittedly     :doh:


 

[WhiteWings]

Well dead works is a result of staying in the  law of Moses / or  teaching of religious law  to me because its the  ministration of death  and letter of the law  , being" the knowledge of sin "  aware of it , yet   they do not do this themselves , what good is law keeping if you  make others do  what your not willing to do yourself ?

I think by keeping the law you enter the servant-covenant, which doesn't save.
I think salvation is only found in the higher covenants.
Note that I'm not talking about being lost forever or similar ET teachings.
The covenants determine in which resurrection someone is resurrected.

:2c:

[rosered]

Well dead works is a result of staying in the  law of Moses / or  teaching of religious law  to me because its the  ministration of death  and letter of the law  , being" the knowledge of sin "  aware of it , yet   they do not do this themselves , what good is law keeping if you  make others do  what your not willing to do yourself ?

I think by keeping the law you enter the servant-covenant, which doesn't save.
I think salvation is only found in the higher covenants.
Note that I'm talking about being lost forever or similar ET teachings.
The covenants determine in which resurrection someone is resurrected.

:2c:

:iagree:   I agree  WW , you are right about that ,     yes the servant to a son  status , TWO  covenants and two types of sons [bond and free ]

[WhiteWings]

I think there are 4 Rosey
Blood = Servant
Salt = Friendship
Sandal = Inheritance
Bride

[eaglesway]

IMO, Any works not done out of love are dead.

[WhiteWings]

IMO, Any works not done out of love are dead.

:Chinscratch:
Not sure about that EW.
If I help a person that person benefits from that no matter if it are works coming straight from the heart or if I'm somehow forced to do it. From the pov of that person I did a good work when I painted the house for free.

Faith without works from the heart is dead.
But that doesn't mean there can't be good works outside of Christ.

At least I don't see a difference in:
a] A saintly Christian taking very good care of his sick parents out of pure love.
b] A heretic taking very good care of his sick parents out of pure love.

They are all works out of love. I think the whole good/bad works thing can't explained with a single simple rule.
A bit like a horse is an animal but not all animals are horses.
Good works are part of faith but not all good works are because of faith.

[redhotmagma]

All good works are because of the seed.  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Can an unbeliever perform according to that seed?

[lomarah]

Can an unbeliever perform according to that seed?

My answer is, of course, YES. :)

[eaglesway]

IMO, Any works not done out of love are dead.

:Chinscratch:
Not sure about that EW.
If I help a person that person benefits from that no matter if it are works coming straight from the heart or if I'm somehow forced to do it. From the pov of that person I did a good work when I painted the house for free.

Faith without works from the heart is dead.
But that doesn't mean there can't be good works outside of Christ.

At least I don't see a difference in:
a] A saintly Christian taking very good care of his sick parents out of pure love.
b] A heretic taking very good care of his sick parents out of pure love.

They are all works out of love. I think the whole good/bad works thing can't explained with a single simple rule.
A bit like a horse is an animal but not all animals are horses.
Good works are part of faith but not all good works are because of faith.

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

I was just stating my opinion, but I believe the scriptures support my opinion that anything that does  not come from love(God is love) is dead works.

Faith works through love. Love is the seed.

Since "the word", or "logos" is the "radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His nature"(Heb 1) and "God is love"- love is the seed. "No greater love has a man than this than to lay down his life for his friends."

Logos means the "expressed thought" or "inner being expressed outwardly"- the Logos is the expression of God's love embodied in Jesus Christ, "the fulness of deity in bodily form". This simply means "All of who and what God is expressed in a way you can see it".(And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth).

IMO true love exceeds all our categorizations and is seen in the heart by God who discerns everything in everyone. It is what Jesus meant by "believe"- "If any man would be my disciple let him take up his cross(lay down his life for his friends) and Come, Follow me."

Jesus clearly defined another kind of believing as worthless- "I was hungry but you gave me no food, I was thirsty but you gave me no water, I was naked but you passed me by"....

But then Paul says, in his soliloque about love.(1 Cor 13)..."If I bestow all my goods so as to feed the poor, if I give my body to be burned..... and have not love, it profits me nothing."

So we see that the works are dead unless they come from love. Love is not religious or religiously defined- it is real or it is not and only God knows and that should keep us all humble and seeking :o)

[lomarah]

If Love is telling a person to take care of their sick parents then WHO is it prompting them to do so? Are they not then acting in faith? (Many will say to me in that day, Lord when did we see you hungry, etc...)

[lomarah]

There you go Eaglesway, we just wrote those at the sane time. Double witness. :)

[eaglesway]

yup :o)

[eaglesway]

yup :o)

Altho I hav to add that someone could take care of their ailing parents out of duty, pride, etc- not really loving them, and it would profit them nothing. Love is the connection through which beings exchange their essence(sounds new age but true anyway)- in full contact with one another. Full forgiveness, tolerance, accounting no wrongs, pouring out good will and kindness.

Wood hay and stubble, imo, is "good" works done for other motivations than  true(agape)love- they will be burned in the fire. The fire is the light that will bring every hidden thing to light. Jesus' eyes are as flames of fire and he says, "I am he that tries the reins and the hearts(secret motivations)".

Thats why when Paul says ,"When those who do not have the law, do the law, they are a law unto themselves.....their consciences either excusing or accusing them on the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ" (Rom 2)

Jesus will decide who was a believer by the love He demonstrated when He laid down His life for His friends - ALL MANKIND - becuase of His genuine love for them all (Father forgive them for they dont know what they are doing)    :o)

[lomarah]

 :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

If Love is telling a person to take care of their sick parents then WHO is it prompting them to do so? Are they not then acting in faith?

So you think atheist, muslims, etc never take care of sick parents.
The atheist obviously has no faith and the faith of the muslim equals nothing too.

[lomarah]

No sir, on the contrary. When Love (aka God) prompts the atheist or muslim to take care of their sick parents are they not being faithful to Love? That's what I meant.

[WhiteWings]

But not faithful to Jesus.
Just as believing in Jesus without good works doesn't save, so does good works without believing in Jesus save either.

Aren't both examples "dead" from a religious, saving pov? I think so.

[lomarah]

Well here is where we get into some "sticky" theology.  :winkgrin:  First of all, many who reject Jesus are not actually rejecting JESUS, imo. They are rejecting the absurdity of "christian" theology and hypocrisy.

Christ is the WORD of God. Christ is the Light. He is the light that enlightens EVERY man that comes into the world. When He speaks to someone (whether they know it's Him or not) and they obey His word, are they not being faithful to Christ? Are "christians" who go by His name actually faithful to Christ if they are not following the light (Love)? No, because even the demons believe Jesus is the Son of God (and tremble).