Faith, works and grace

[WhiteWings]

Often there seems some/a lot of tension between works and faith in the mind of many.
To me it looks like they are scared to consider works because they think that means rejecting or lessening the work of Jesus.
In this post I'll try to show that those without works never are saved. I'll try to do so in small steps as I see them. Don't start angry replies before you read all steps  :winkgrin:


Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

The first thing I want to say about that verse is that it's best to read Hebrews 5 and 6 as one chapter because Heb 6:1 seems make a little more sense that way.
Notice the verse warns against building doctrines on dead-works. It doesn't say all works are dead. Neither does it say they're also non dead works.
So let's not inject extra things into this verse and move on the next verse.


Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Faith without works is alone and dead. Dead faith is no faith. So a person without works never has faith.
Note that I did not write that works replace faith, are equal to faith. They a sign of faith. They are the fruit of faith.
So Jas 2:17 informs us that faith requires works and Heb 6:1 informs us dead-works should be avoided. Obviously that means means the works spoken of in Jas 2:17 aren't dead-works but life-works.

The following 2 verses just rephrase Jas 2:17
Jas 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Matt 25:1-46 (AKJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say to them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungered, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink?
38 When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you?
39 Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came to you?
40 And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me.
---> The people who did good works are rewarded.


41 Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungered, and you gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to you?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
---> The people who did no works get corrected


Please don't turn this in a hell thread. That's not my point. My point is that a quite lenghty passage is dedicated to works. If works never are of any importance no ink and paper would have been used on it.



Isa 29:13 Why the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Lip service. Believe something is right but not act according to it. Believe stealing is wrong but still steal. Believe feeding the poor is good but avoid helping them. A tree without fruit.


Eph 2:4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;)

2Tim 1:9 Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

I see works and faith as a package deal. Because everyone, except Jesus, fails/failed to have a 'perfect package' so only grace will save us.
A little note about grace. Grace is often to be thought to be God showing compassion etc. But that's possibly not exactly what it means.
When someone was in debt he was 'enslaved'. When his debt got paid he was a free man again. Sin=debt. Jesus paid our debt. When someone was bought free s/he was said to be under grace. So grace is a legal transaction paid by Jesus. But that understanding isn't really needed in this post. The point is that our faith and works never perfect enough to earn/deserve/receive/.... a spot in everlasting life. The missing bits are provided by Father through His Son.




So to summarize:
a] Faith can't be without good works.
b] We never fully succeed in point a, and that's where grace comes into view.

:2c:

[ded2daworld]

IMO, We don't have faith because we do good works.
We do good works because we have faith.
"Whatever is done (work) apart from the spirit (faith) is sin"

[irenic-inkwell]

imo a Scripture that stamps "approval" on both:
WW's many words
ded's few words

Eph 2:10 (AMP)
For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

1.  Paul knew/practiced the law of works ("dead works")
2.  Damascus experience
3.  Paul knew by revelation good works ("life works")

from Jamieson-Fausset-Brown

unto good works:  Good works cannot be performed until we are newly created unto them.  Paul never calls the works of the law "good works".  We are not saved by, but created unto, good works.

planned beforehand:  God marks out for each in His purposes beforehand, the particular good works, and the time and way which He sees best.  God both makes ready by His providence the opportunities for the works, and makes us ready for their performance.  see John 15:16; 2 Tim 2:21

[WhiteWings]

unto good works:  Good works cannot be performed until we are newly created unto them.

I never said otherwise. I said it's a package. If one or both is missing the person has no faith. Is 'lost'.

[irenic-inkwell]

unto good works:  Good works cannot be performed until we are newly created unto them.

I never said otherwise. I said it's a package. If one or both is missing the person has no faith. Is 'lost'.

Yes, I knew you said it's a package ... it's this "package" that seemed to me to be saying what Eph 2:10 states.  I quoted JFB for general information.

[Tom]

Often there seems some/a lot of tension between works and faith in the mind of many.
To me it looks like they are scared to consider works because they think that means rejecting or lessening the work of Jesus.
In this post I'll try to show that those without works never are saved. I'll try to do so in small steps as I see them. Don't start angry replies before you read all steps  :winkgrin:


Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

The first thing I want to say about that verse is that it's best to read Hebrews 5 and 6 as one chapter because Heb 6:1 seems make a little more sense that way.
Notice the verse warns against building doctrines on dead-works. It doesn't say all works are dead. Neither does it say they're also non dead works.
So let's not inject extra things into this verse and move on the next verse.


Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Faith without works is alone and dead. Dead faith is no faith. So a person without works never has faith.
Note that I did not write that works replace faith, are equal to faith. They a sign of faith. They are the fruit of faith.
So Jas 2:17 informs us that faith requires works and Heb 6:1 informs us dead-works should be avoided. Obviously that means means the works spoken of in Jas 2:17 aren't dead-works but life-works.

The following 2 verses just rephrase Jas 2:17
Jas 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Matt 25:1-46 (AKJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say to them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungered, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink?
38 When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you?
39 Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came to you?
40 And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me.
---> The people who did good works are rewarded.


41 Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungered, and you gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to you?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
---> The people who did no works get corrected


Please don't turn this in a hell thread. That's not my point. My point is that a quite lenghty passage is dedicated to works. If works never are of any importance no ink and paper would have been used on it.



Isa 29:13 Why the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Lip service. Believe something is right but not act according to it. Believe stealing is wrong but still steal. Believe feeding the poor is good but avoid helping them. A tree without fruit.


Eph 2:4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;)

2Tim 1:9 Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

I see works and faith as a package deal. Because everyone, except Jesus, fails/failed to have a 'perfect package' so only grace will save us.
A little note about grace. Grace is often to be thought to be God showing compassion etc. But that's possibly not exactly what it means.
When someone was in debt he was 'enslaved'. When his debt got paid he was a free man again. Sin=debt. Jesus paid our debt. When someone was bought free s/he was said to be under grace. So grace is a legal transaction paid by Jesus. But that understanding isn't really needed in this post. The point is that our faith and works never perfect enough to earn/deserve/receive/.... a spot in everlasting life. The missing bits are provided by Father through His Son.




So to summarize:
a] Faith can't be without good works.
b] We never fully succeed in point a, and that's where grace comes into view.

:2c:

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/StudiesInGalatians/index.html

[lomarah]

Here is how I see it. :)

True faith is believing what the Spirit reveals to you, personally, whether it be through the written word (scriptures), through a personal word (Him speaking to your heart), through a prophet (prophetic word), or whatever it may be. (Heck He even speaks through donkeys at times.  :laughing7: ) True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.

I wonder if the works is the fruit then is the seed the word, and faith the water that brings the seed (word) to fruition?  :dontknow:

[sheila]

 very good analogy!

[irenic-inkwell]

Here is how I see it. :)

True faith is believing what the Spirit reveals to you, personally, whether it be through the written word (scriptures), through a personal word (Him speaking to your heart), through a prophet (prophetic word), or whatever it may be. (Heck He even speaks through donkeys at times.  :laughing7: ) True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.

I wonder if the works is the fruit then is the seed the word, and faith the water that brings the seed (word) to fruition?  :dontknow:

Thanks Lomarah... sounds good to me... and has given me a whole new way to look at the story of Jesus healing the man born blind...

[WhiteWings]

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

The classic verse. But of no use if the words aren't understood.
Anyway it doesn't contradict what I wrote in the slightest.


(Btw if like the word approach in that verse)

[WhiteWings]

True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.

That supports my view/post. The blind man didn't just believe Jesus but acted upon it. He washed that area and didn't wash anything extra/different to improve things. Or didn't make up excuses to not wash at all.

[lomarah]

True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.

That supports my view/post. The blind man didn't just believe Jesus but acted upon it. He washed that area and didn't wash anything extra/different to improve things. Or didn't make up excuses to not wash at all.

Exactly!  :thumbsup:  :banana:

[rosered]

Thanks for this thread WW and all whom shared  amazing  Lo/Holly !!

  made me think of John 14 , its the Father revealing Himself    by good and perfect works   though Christ in YOU !!  Christ is the firstfruit and   chief  example   as Jesus explains in John 14 Jhn 14:7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. [fn] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!" 


Jhn 14:8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied." 


Jhn 14:9 Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you? 


Jhn 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me. 


Jhn 14:11 Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do. 
Jhn 14:12 "I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. 


Jhn 14:13 You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. 


Jhn 14:14 Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it! 

[irenic-inkwell]

Yes, thanks for this thread WW and with a little help from rosered and lomarah --

   I was blind, but now can see better your point of view of faith, works, grace

[rosered]

Yes, thanks for this thread WW and with a little help from rosered and lomarah --

   I was blind, but now can see better your point of view of faith, works, grace

  I loved what you shared too Irene , because  it''helped '' build a  wonderful thread !!
  the dead works and the Living Works ''so helpful''     I see these threads as trains of ''thought''  coming though  and out of , cities , tunnels and  and old places  , staying on track  but yet following the Holy Spirits lead    :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Something I can't really prove with verses.... at least not directly.

I gave the example that when someone believes stealing is wrong but still steals that person is dead in faith because the works are rotten fruit.
But it goes one step further. If that same person stops stealing because there is more police in the area or he can't bypass the new generation of alarm systems then that person still has bad fruit/dead faith.
Fear restrains him from stealing not the good fruit producing kind heart.

The same but opposite thing can be explained by helping out the poor. Someone believes it's good to help out the poor but is to stingy to give. But at full exposure that person gives.

Matt 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Trumpet is a trumpet shaped alms box that made a distinctive sound when a coin was dropped into it.

[JulieTang84]

WhiteWings I have only read your post and agree that faith foes indeed produce works. By their fruit or lack of, the measure of faith is revealed.

However, I would like to add that, faith produced work is not really work at all. Rather, they are acts of love, through and because of love. These acts are done with no thought of reward or compensation.They are done for the pure joy they bring. Love creates, fear destroys.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

I wrote such a thing is different words.
But the Bible calls them both the bad and good/heart works, works.
That can be a bit confusing. Especially when it's not known there are works God blesses and some He at best ignores.

[WhiteWings]

Yes, thanks for this thread WW and with a little help from rosered and lomarah --

   I was blind, but now can see better your point of view of faith, works, grace

That's good because in the past I was accused that I promoted bringing back the curse of the law. The works etc.
A few days ago the subject emerged again (it's linked to quite a few things) so I decided to give my view on the topic.

[WhiteWings]

Here is how I see it. :)

True faith is believing what the Spirit reveals to you, personally, whether it be through the written word (scriptures), through a personal word (Him speaking to your heart), through a prophet (prophetic word), or whatever it may be. (Heck He even speaks through donkeys at times.  :laughing7: ) True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.

I wonder if the works is the fruit then is the seed the word, and faith the water that brings the seed (word) to fruition?  :dontknow:

(http://dbcfaa79b34c8f5dfffa-7d3a62c63519b1618047ef2108473a39.r81.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/bethesda-416x312.jpg)

A picture of that pool. A mivah bath actually.
Read this article.
I want to add two little factoids to the article. The mikvah bath was considered the most important thing of all. Even more than the Temple itself.

The reason why they pool had two compartments.

Mikvah a ritual baptism. A stone wall divided two sections of the pool. The main pool contained rainwater which came from heaven. A secondary pool containing (at least) 200 gallons of well water, coming from earth, was build a little below the main pool. The separating wall had a little hole in it so rainwater spilled into the well-water pool. The heavenly water sanctified the earthly water. That way both earth and heaven witnessed the purifying bath.
They always faced upstream and bowed in the direction of God. When available natural streams like rivers were used as a Mikvah.

[jbertonbounds]

WhiteWings I have only read your post and agree that faith foes indeed produce works. By their fruit or lack of, the measure of faith is revealed.

However, I would like to add that, faith produced work is not really work at all. Rather, they are acts of love, through and because of love. These acts are done with no thought of reward or compensation.They are done for the pure joy they bring. Love creates, fear destroys.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

:thumbsup:

[rosered]

  Julie of course your right LOVE [God ] is the perfect bond of maturity !!  or growing up in Christ , Being grounded in love and  rooted in Christ  ,  He is Vine and we are the branches  , to be  lopped off or pruned  ,  or made to bring   /  bear fruit to the glory of God   , though the    Son

   I love it  what you Said, WW   , I just dug in a bit deeper and saw  in Hebrew  6   in  milk  and in meat  , the immature to the mature in Christ both being baptisms of sorts    , moving beyond the six basic teachings of Jewish   foundational  instruction     in understanding    of Christ and HIS    purpose    in Hebrews 7-1  10-25      fulfilling the royal Law in Christ  Jesus . getting to be partakers in CHRIST   all that goodness and   completness and  glory to God   as well as the same types of sufferings   of life and death   , both being baptisms  , there was two the Jordan and the Cross

   thanks for   bringing this all   up !  :HeartThrob:  it helps me today , lots to think upon 

[Tom]

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

The classic verse. But of no use if the words aren't understood.
Anyway it doesn't contradict what I wrote in the slightest.


(Btw if like the word approach in that verse)

My post was not meant to "contradict" what you wrote, but to clarify that it is "in grace, through faith, are you saved... not of works." When you say that "those without works never are saved," it needs to be clarified that the "works" being referred to are the effect of salvation not the cause. We are motivated to do good "works" by the love of God that inspires us to do so because we know God loves us and intends for us to share his love with others. Our salvation is a free gift from God that we don't earn. Nobody is worthy of it, but God is gracious. That's why eventually all mankind will be saved from death at the consummation of the eons, even those who seemed to be the worst of sinners. So "lest anyone should be boasting" about their "works," never forget that is only by the grace of God that any of us are saved.

[rosered]

 
  PS
  The dead works seems to be focusing on  repentance   of sin and not being able to get past that ???

   the six elemental teachings  , I only have5


  1  repentance 
2Faith in God  3 baptisms    4  laying on hands / healing    5 resurrection from the dead

  I am not sure what six /6  is
  do you  know ?   thanks

[WhiteWings]

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

The classic verse. But of no use if the words aren't understood.
Anyway it doesn't contradict what I wrote in the slightest.


(Btw if like the word approach in that verse)

My post was not meant to "contradict" what you wrote,

To be honest I can't even remember if I assumed you did (not).
It's just that certain verses often are used as the ulitimate proof to support a view.
When I see such a verse, I get on my  :soap: and start  :blahgreen: :blah:

but to clarify that it is "in grace, through faith, are you saved... not of works." When you say that "those without works never are saved," it needs to be clarified that the "works" being referred to are the effect of salvation not the cause.

I find that  a bit difficult Tom. It's a bit like the what came first. The chicken or the egg.
Good works can only come through faith. But faith can only be when the mentioned works are 'alive'.
That's not a debate. It's something I truly can't comprehend.
That's why I took the safe route and called it a package deal. Today on my way to work I thought about it and decided it's not complete.

My current view is:
When we get born we receive an empty box. When it's filled with works through faith at death we are saved. Only Jesus' box was completly full. Ours is not. Never. Father adds grace until the box is full.
Does that qualify as the happy thought of the day?

We are motivated to do good "works" by the love of God that inspires us to do so because we know God loves us and intends for us to share his love with others. Our salvation is a free gift from God that we don't earn. Nobody is worthy of it, but God is gracious. That's why eventually all mankind will be saved from death at the consummation of the eons, even those who seemed to be the worst of sinners. So "lest anyone should be boasting" about their "works," never forget that is only by the grace of God that any of us are saved.

Fully agree with that.