Lust - sin? or mere admiration?

[jbertonbounds]

Martin Zender published an essay on lust- "The Fatal Twisting of Matthew 5:28," Clanging Gong News, Volume 3, Issue 15.  In short, he was saying that any desire for anything is essentially lust, be it a lust for food, money, or a lust for sex.  In Mat 5.28 [ESV], Jesus said, "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."  Zender said that lust in general was only sinless admiration unless one actually makes plans to commit adultery.  I don't fully agree with Zender.  I have always drawn that line further back - where a person fantasizes about the act of adultery (actually does the act in his mind) - whether he actually makes plans or not.  The only version in Blueletter that uses the words "with lustful intent" is the ESV.  None of the rest of the versions in Blueletter use the word "intent."  IMO, intent indicates the making of plans to commit adultery.  I like the Rotherham Emphasized bible.  Rotherham translated the verse, "But, I, say unto you, that, Every one who looketh on a woman so as to covet her, already, hath committed adultery with her, in his heart."  I notice here the phrase "so as to covet."  This seems to me to also indicate something stronger than mere admiration, but not so strong as making plans.  To covet is to burn for, strongly desire, want really bad - to the point of being motivate to act.  The word covet seems to indicate an obsessive yearning for something.  Maybe that is where the line should be drawn.  Perhaps that is what Jesus meant in Mat 5.28.  When the admiration grows to level of coveting desire, it becomes sin.

What do you think?

[sheila]

  God fulfills the desiresof therighteous..........take nothought..as to what shall we eat,

what shaaall wewear..the Lord knows ye needthem...seek first the Kingdom..and all these

things shall be addedunto you.

   we cananddohave 'righteous' desires.  ajob to provide..a wife[Gift from God]  I think the

   crux ofit is..covet anything that is yourneighbors..andtrusting God togive you whatis yours.

    He has told us,Heknows what we need.

  as related toahusband andwife....Christ and His church...awife does not demandwhat her

husbandis unableorunwilling to provide...so showydisplaysof ones mean's oflife..Heis

unwilling to provide.  Few things are necessary.....

  I have seen rich men..satisfied with the workoftheir own haands..andnot alover of money

  andI have seen poor coveting a rich man's possessions. It can be .either way...thething is

finding 'contentment' whether rich or poor. Whether  with your own wife/hudband.

   I've seen many a beautiful woman..treated shoddily in marriage..I have seenother women

  have happy marriages,truly lovedof their husbands..a love not based on mere appearances.

   thyankful appreciation for what He has given us........and righteous desires will be granted.


        the daughter of the leach..says give! give!  never saitisfied always wanting more..

  nothing is ever enough!  if I had toidentify it..I would reckon it as the spirit ofcovetnous


          good topic  :thumbsup:

[Tom]

Martin Zender published an essay on lust- "The Fatal Twisting of Matthew 5:28," Clanging Gong News, Volume 3, Issue 15.  In short, he was saying that any desire for anything is essentially lust, be it a lust for food, money, or a lust for sex.  In Mat 5.28 [ESV], Jesus said, "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."  Zender said that lust in general was only sinless admiration unless one actually makes plans to commit adultery.  I don't fully agree with Zender.  I have always drawn that line further back - where a person fantasizes about the act of adultery (actually does the act in his mind) - whether he actually makes plans or not.  The only version in Blueletter that uses the words "with lustful intent" is the ESV.  None of the rest of the versions in Blueletter use the word "intent."  IMO, intent indicates the making of plans to commit adultery.  I like the Rotherham Emphasized bible.  Rotherham translated the verse, "But, I, say unto you, that, Every one who looketh on a woman so as to covet her, already, hath committed adultery with her, in his heart."  I notice here the phrase "so as to covet."  This seems to me to also indicate something stronger than mere admiration, but not so strong as making plans.  To covet is to burn for, strongly desire, want really bad - to the point of being motivate to act.  The word covet seems to indicate an obsessive yearning for something.  Maybe that is where the line should be drawn.  Perhaps that is what Jesus meant in Mat 5.28.  When the admiration grows to level of coveting desire, it becomes sin.

What do you think?

The Greek "epithumio," literally "on-feel," and "epithumia," literally "on-feeling," are used for both "desire" and "lust." I think what Martin was saying is desire is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact it's natural. It is evil desire that is sin. In Luke 22:15 the word is used by Christ when he expresses his yearning to eat the passover with his apostles.


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[irenic-inkwell]

  God fulfills the desiresof therighteous..........take nothought..as to what shall we eat,

what shaaall wewear..the Lord knows ye needthem...seek first the Kingdom..and all these

things shall be addedunto you.

   we cananddohave 'righteous' desires.  ajob to provide..a wife[Gift from God]  I think the

   crux ofit is..covet anything that is yourneighbors..andtrusting God togive you whatis yours.

    He has told us,Heknows what we need.

  as related toahusband andwife....Christ and His church...awife does not demandwhat her

husbandis unableorunwilling to provide...so showydisplaysof ones mean's oflife..Heis

unwilling to provide.  Few things are necessary.....

  I have seen rich men..satisfied with the workoftheir own haands..andnot alover of money

  andI have seen poor coveting a rich man's possessions. It can be .either way...thething is

finding 'contentment' whether rich or poor. Whether  with your own wife/hudband.

   I've seen many a beautiful woman..treated shoddily in marriage..I have seenother women

  have happy marriages,truly lovedof their husbands..a love not based on mere appearances.

   thyankful appreciation for what He has given us........and righteous desires will be granted.




          good topic  :thumbsup:

Thank you Sheila--your post is a great personal blessing.  I'm in great need of refocusing some of my thought patterns...  instead of thinking about how long it would take for admiring to turn into planning/coveting, your post encourages me...

keep my eyes on Jesus...  single eye Matt 6:22
seek first the kingdom... Matt 6:33

and mostly-- remember/believe  God fulfills the desires of the righteous...does He not put those desires into our minds and hearts?

[lomarah]

Cardinal told me once that Father gave her the definition of lust as desiring anything apart from His good and perfect will for your life. Makes sense to me!

And yeah Irene... I do believe He puts those righteous desires in our hearts... He told me once!  :HeartThrob:

[ded2daworld]

 :2c:I can look at a mountain or lake or stream and admire the beauty. I cannot desire it for my own personal possession.
Coveting, is wanting what someone else has or something that you want for your own possession (even if just for a few minutes. :2c:

[Warhawk17]

Thanks for some great posts everyone! As a male college student, there are a lot of temptations out there. I do think what Zender says is mostly true though. I think it's ok for me to look at a woman on campus though and think, "Wow she's beautiful." I think of that as simply admiring God's creation. If that girl was with another guy though, and I pictured having sex with her, I would be guilty of committing adultery in my heart. Believe me, I have definitely stumbled in this area, and I have to say thank God for his amazing grace!

I have a question though. What if I meet a single girl and go away from meeting her thinking, "Wow she is beautiful and such a sweetheart! I want her to be mine!" I think that is perfectly fine because in that situation, I would ask her on a date and make her my girlfriend and hope she is the one. If I desired nothing but sex with her and didn't want an intimate relationship, I know that would be wrong. Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?

[watchman1706]

Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control. It is an automated response when you come under pressures of life. It is the desire that fuels addictions.
At it's heart, it comes from offences against us...undealt with pain or moments of great fear that have never been healed. These are strongholds. Sometimes from personal experience, sometimes passed down as generational iniquities.
If you have little or no control, it is a lust. Why is it a sin? Because it has become a god to us and we serve it and not God.
To overcome, you need to be emotionally ready to face up to it. You pray for God to reveal how the offense came into your life. Usually he will quicken a thought immediately. Sometimes you have to seek more. The answer may not make sense at first, but meditate on it and God will reveal more. Then it is a matter of taking responsibility (atone) for the offense. This may involve forgiving others, releasing others from our judgement, forgiveness for our own words against ourselves or believing the cursing words of others? Then ask God to come into that area and bring cleansing and healing. To be God in that high place.
Then as the healing presence of God's spirit cleanses you, it will feel like cool water from a mountain stream moving through and refreshing you. I have been through it myself.
These lusts come from raw need for comfort from real pain, guilt and shame.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.

God isn't interested in tricking us into sin. He's not waiting with baited breath for us to trip up with our eyes and what we see? That isn't his nature. Why do people think that it is? He made everything for us to become like him. To succeed. Not to fail.

Jas 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jas 1:6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Isn't that wonderful news?

:banana: :banana: :banana: Love these bananas

[Tom]

Thanks for some great posts everyone! As a male college student, there are a lot of temptations out there. I do think what Zender says is mostly true though. I think it's ok for me to look at a woman on campus though and think, "Wow she's beautiful." I think of that as simply admiring God's creation. If that girl was with another guy though, and I pictured having sex with her, I would be guilty of committing adultery in my heart. Believe me, I have definitely stumbled in this area, and I have to say thank God for his amazing grace!

I have a question though. What if I meet a single girl and go away from meeting her thinking, "Wow she is beautiful and such a sweetheart! I want her to be mine!" I think that is perfectly fine because in that situation, I would ask her on a date and make her my girlfriend and hope she is the one. If I desired nothing but sex with her and didn't want an intimate relationship, I know that would be wrong. Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?

I think sex is "an intimate relationship," bro. The Concordant Version calls what you're referring to "prostitution," but other versions use the word "fornication." It seems that God intends sex for marriage. Marriage is a spiritual and fleshly union that is a lifelong commitment blessed by God.

"Therefore a man shall forsake his father and his mother and cling to his wife, and they two become one flesh." (Genesis 2:24)


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[jbertonbounds]

Thanks for some great posts everyone! As a male college student, there are a lot of temptations out there. I do think what Zender says is mostly true though. I think it's ok for me to look at a woman on campus though and think, "Wow she's beautiful." I think of that as simply admiring God's creation. If that girl was with another guy though, and I pictured having sex with her, I would be guilty of committing adultery in my heart. Believe me, I have definitely stumbled in this area, and I have to say thank God for his amazing grace!

I have a question though. What if I meet a single girl and go away from meeting her thinking, "Wow she is beautiful and such a sweetheart! I want her to be mine!" I think that is perfectly fine because in that situation, I would ask her on a date and make her my girlfriend and hope she is the one. If I desired nothing but sex with her and didn't want an intimate relationship, I know that would be wrong. Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?

Good question, and glad you asked.  This is a pet subject of mine.  This is all MY OPINION.

What we in our culture call marriage is usually the legal arrangement of marriage, which many states are now fighting to define.  Does God recognize this as marriage?  Don't think so.  Don't think he cares about marriage liscenses.  Then there is the wedding ceremony most people, especially Christians, think is necessary to perform in order to be married.  Does God respect the ceremony, hear the preacher's elegant word's, and call it marriage, and say, "It is good."?  Don't think so.  Don't think he cares about ceremonies.  Marriage is a commitment to a person of the opposite sex to do the things that are "said" in the ceremony - but the commitment is not what is done in the church or in the judge's chamber, it is what is lived out through the rest of your life.  Anyone can say a commitment, but it's only good if it is lived out.  Did the men of old have marriage liscenses?  Maybe, but probably mostly not.  Did they have ceremonies?  Probably some did, but not most. 

In the bible, it is commonly said that So-n-so "took her to be his wife..."  There are mentions of wedding feasts and such, but their customs were so different from ours that we probably would not recognize it as a "wedding."  You see, the wedding takes place after the ceremony, in the bedroom (or where ever :laughing7:).  The marriage continues for life.  Marriage is a life arrangement, not what takes place at the church "wedding."

Now to attempt to answer your question.  I believe it is all about your intentions of commitment.  When a man meets a special lady, or a woman meets a special man, it is good and right in God's sight to desire that person.  Here is where is gets tricky.  IMO, to enter into a sexual relationship at this point IS marriage.  To marry, or wed, is to unite.  Sexual union, IMO, is the most basic part of marriage, because you become one with that person.  Of course, to keep from falling into sin, one must be committed.  And a marriage commitment is a lifetime commitment, and not to be taken lightly. 

Make no mistake.  I am not saying that to have sex with another person is the same thing as marriage.  It's not, IMO.  Sex outside of marriage commitment is sin.  I believe God intends for us to mate for life.  To have sex with your dates on Saturday nights is sin.  To unite, and as the bible says, "become one" with a prostitute is sin.  Promiscuity is sin.

So when is it NOT a sin?  Consider this ideal scenario:
A man and a woman meet.  They begin to date.  They grow into a deep friendship, and love results, as they strive to help each other grow spiritually.  They decide they want to be together for the rest of their lives, so they decide to marry, or unite.  They make their plans, make a lifetime commitment to each other, and then begin their journey together.  Was a liscense necessary?  Was a church ceremony necessary?  Was saying the right words necessary?  Was a preacher or probate judge necessary? 

Case in point:  Enter one Ben, a nice young man whom I knew many years ago.  Ben met his wife in high school, and they began their journey together right after high school.  His father was a deacon in the church, and was grieved over Ben's decision to "shack up" with his "girlfriend."  Ben and his wife are still together today and are raising a beautiful family.  They never had a ceremony, so most people think Ben is a hell-bound sinner.  Ben and his wife obviously did have commitment.  Marriage partners cannot live together without commitment.  Won't work.  But is not Ben only doing what God intended for him to do all along?  Is that not a part of God's plan for us?  Now if that is not marriage, then what is?

Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?

YES.

[Tom]

Thanks for some great posts everyone! As a male college student, there are a lot of temptations out there. I do think what Zender says is mostly true though. I think it's ok for me to look at a woman on campus though and think, "Wow she's beautiful." I think of that as simply admiring God's creation. If that girl was with another guy though, and I pictured having sex with her, I would be guilty of committing adultery in my heart. Believe me, I have definitely stumbled in this area, and I have to say thank God for his amazing grace!

I have a question though. What if I meet a single girl and go away from meeting her thinking, "Wow she is beautiful and such a sweetheart! I want her to be mine!" I think that is perfectly fine because in that situation, I would ask her on a date and make her my girlfriend and hope she is the one. If I desired nothing but sex with her and didn't want an intimate relationship, I know that would be wrong. Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?

Good question, and glad you asked.  This is a pet subject of mine.  This is all MY OPINION.

What we in our culture call marriage is usually the legal arrangement of marriage, which many states are now fighting to define.  Does God recognize this as marriage?  Don't think so.  Don't think he cares about marriage liscenses.  Then there is the wedding ceremony most people, especially Christians, think is necessary to perform in order to be married.  Does God respect the ceremony, hear the preacher's elegant word's, and call it marriage, and say, "It is good."?  Don't think so.  Don't think he cares about ceremonies.  Marriage is a commitment to a person of the opposite sex to do the things that are "said" in the ceremony - but the commitment is not what is done in the church or in the judge's chamber, it is what is lived out through the rest of your life.  Anyone can say a commitment, but it's only good if it is lived out.  Did the men of old have marriage liscenses?  Maybe, but probably mostly not.  Did they have ceremonies?  Probably some did, but not most. 

In the bible, it is commonly said that So-n-so "took her to be his wife..."  There are mentions of wedding feasts and such, but their customs were so different from ours that we probably would not recognize it as a "wedding."  You see, the wedding takes place after the ceremony, in the bedroom (or where ever :laughing7:).  The marriage continues for life.  Marriage is a life arrangement, not what takes place at the church "wedding."

Now to attempt to answer your question.  I believe it is all about your intentions of commitment.  When a man meets a special lady, or a woman meets a special man, it is good and right in God's sight to desire that person.  Here is where is gets tricky.  IMO, to enter into a sexual relationship at this point IS marriage.  To marry, or wed, is to unite.  Sexual union, IMO, is the most basic part of marriage, because you become one with that person.  Of course, to keep from falling into sin, one must be committed.  And a marriage commitment is a lifetime commitment, and not to be taken lightly. 

Make no mistake.  I am not saying that to have sex with another person is the same thing as marriage.  It's not, IMO.  Sex outside of marriage commitment is sin.  I believe God intends for us to mate for life.  To have sex with your dates on Saturday nights is sin.  To unite, and as the bible says, "become one" with a prostitute is sin.  Promiscuity is sin.

So when is it NOT a sin?  Consider this ideal scenario:
A man and a woman meet.  They begin to date.  They grow into a deep friendship, and love results, as they strive to help each other grow spiritually.  They decide they want to be together for the rest of their lives, so they decide to marry, or unite.  They make their plans, make a lifetime commitment to each other, and then begin their journey together.  Was a liscense necessary?  Was a church ceremony necessary?  Was saying the right words necessary?  Was a preacher or probate judge necessary? 

Case in point:  Enter one Ben, a nice young man whom I knew many years ago.  Ben met his wife in high school, and they began their journey together right after high school.  His father was a deacon in the church, and was grieved over Ben's decision to "shack up" with his "girlfriend."  Ben and his wife are still together today and are raising a beautiful family.  They never had a ceremony, so most people think Ben is a hell-bound sinner.  Ben and his wife obviously did have commitment.  Marriage partners cannot live together without commitment.  Won't work.  But is not Ben only doing what God intended for him to do all along?  Is that not a part of God's plan for us?  Now if that is not marriage, then what is?

Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?

YES.

I think you said it well, bro.

[jbertonbounds]

Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.

Personally, I believe lust is, as you said, a deep-seated desire.  When we allow it to get out of control, sin occurs.  James 1:14-15 [ESV], "¹⁴ But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. ¹⁵ Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."  So sin begins at the point where desire conceives. 

You have a good point about knowing just where to "draw the line" between natural desire and sin.  I think many people do have a problem with that and carry unnecessary quilt over things that are not sin.  I have been dealing with that to some extent lately - trying to draw those lines in the right places.  The Spirit helps us determine what is sin.

[jabcat]

Wow...a real lack of knowledge here.

:Chinscratch:

[Warhawk17]

Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.

Personally, I believe lust is, as you said, a deep-seated desire.  When we allow it to get out of control, sin occurs.  James 1:14-15 [ESV], "¹⁴ But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. ¹⁵ Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."  So sin begins at the point where desire conceives. 

You have a good point about knowing just where to "draw the line" between natural desire and sin.  I think many people do have a problem with that and carry unnecessary quilt over things that are not sin.  I have been dealing with that to some extent lately - trying to draw those lines in the right places.  The Spirit helps us determine what is sin.

I like everything you have said.  :thumbsup: Remember, I have a Catholic background, and pretty much my whole life I was taught to feel guilty about my human nature so changing my ideas about this is taking a little bit of time. It is nice to have a lot less guilt and worry when it comes to these things. I just pray that God joins me with the right woman sooner or later. I'm in no rush to get married, but it would be nice to have a woman by my side.

[lomarah]

Thanks for some great posts everyone! As a male college student, there are a lot of temptations out there. I do think what Zender says is mostly true though. I think it's ok for me to look at a woman on campus though and think, "Wow she's beautiful." I think of that as simply admiring God's creation. If that girl was with another guy though, and I pictured having sex with her, I would be guilty of committing adultery in my heart. Believe me, I have definitely stumbled in this area, and I have to say thank God for his amazing grace!

I have a question though. What if I meet a single girl and go away from meeting her thinking, "Wow she is beautiful and such a sweetheart! I want her to be mine!" I think that is perfectly fine because in that situation, I would ask her on a date and make her my girlfriend and hope she is the one. If I desired nothing but sex with her and didn't want an intimate relationship, I know that would be wrong. Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?

Good question, and glad you asked.  This is a pet subject of mine.  This is all MY OPINION.

What we in our culture call marriage is usually the legal arrangement of marriage, which many states are now fighting to define.  Does God recognize this as marriage?  Don't think so.  Don't think he cares about marriage liscenses.  Then there is the wedding ceremony most people, especially Christians, think is necessary to perform in order to be married.  Does God respect the ceremony, hear the preacher's elegant word's, and call it marriage, and say, "It is good."?  Don't think so.  Don't think he cares about ceremonies.  Marriage is a commitment to a person of the opposite sex to do the things that are "said" in the ceremony - but the commitment is not what is done in the church or in the judge's chamber, it is what is lived out through the rest of your life.  Anyone can say a commitment, but it's only good if it is lived out.  Did the men of old have marriage liscenses?  Maybe, but probably mostly not.  Did they have ceremonies?  Probably some did, but not most. 

In the bible, it is commonly said that So-n-so "took her to be his wife..."  There are mentions of wedding feasts and such, but their customs were so different from ours that we probably would not recognize it as a "wedding."  You see, the wedding takes place after the ceremony, in the bedroom (or where ever :laughing7:).  The marriage continues for life.  Marriage is a life arrangement, not what takes place at the church "wedding."

Now to attempt to answer your question.  I believe it is all about your intentions of commitment.  When a man meets a special lady, or a woman meets a special man, it is good and right in God's sight to desire that person.  Here is where is gets tricky.  IMO, to enter into a sexual relationship at this point IS marriage.  To marry, or wed, is to unite.  Sexual union, IMO, is the most basic part of marriage, because you become one with that person.  Of course, to keep from falling into sin, one must be committed.  And a marriage commitment is a lifetime commitment, and not to be taken lightly. 

Make no mistake.  I am not saying that to have sex with another person is the same thing as marriage.  It's not, IMO.  Sex outside of marriage commitment is sin.  I believe God intends for us to mate for life.  To have sex with your dates on Saturday nights is sin.  To unite, and as the bible says, "become one" with a prostitute is sin.  Promiscuity is sin.

So when is it NOT a sin?  Consider this ideal scenario:
A man and a woman meet.  They begin to date.  They grow into a deep friendship, and love results, as they strive to help each other grow spiritually.  They decide they want to be together for the rest of their lives, so they decide to marry, or unite.  They make their plans, make a lifetime commitment to each other, and then begin their journey together.  Was a liscense necessary?  Was a church ceremony necessary?  Was saying the right words necessary?  Was a preacher or probate judge necessary? 

Case in point:  Enter one Ben, a nice young man whom I knew many years ago.  Ben met his wife in high school, and they began their journey together right after high school.  His father was a deacon in the church, and was grieved over Ben's decision to "shack up" with his "girlfriend."  Ben and his wife are still together today and are raising a beautiful family.  They never had a ceremony, so most people think Ben is a hell-bound sinner.  Ben and his wife obviously did have commitment.  Marriage partners cannot live together without commitment.  Won't work.  But is not Ben only doing what God intended for him to do all along?  Is that not a part of God's plan for us?  Now if that is not marriage, then what is?

Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?

YES.

I think you're pretty bang on jbb. The only thing I would add (and a VERY important detail) is to MAKE SURE you are marrying who FATHER tells you to marry. And NOT to marry ANYONE He tells you not to. PLEASE listen to me here... if you listen to these words it can save you years (and even a lifetime) of heartache, and ensure you a lifetime of blessing.

[WhiteWings]

Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?

YES.

:Chinscratch:
Sex with a woman married to another man is strictly forbidden. Sex with unmarried women is not.
Jacob had 4. http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/sons-of-jacob/msg137879/#msg137879
Solomon had 300 women.

In this verse sex often equals marriage:
Exodus 22:16-17
"If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins.

Solomon and his wife Abishag/Shunammite didn't want a long betrothal period and suggested immediate consummation to seal the marriage.

:2c:

[JulieTang84]

Wow so many good points.


But only Father knows the hearts of men and of course women. We are dealing with a classic bell curve here.


If one has little knowledge (a small light of truth) and sleeps with someone they are not married to, is that a great as sin as anyone here doing the same?


Only Father can judge the intent of ones mind. Sometimes the need to feel "whole" can only be acheived in an intimate way with another of the opposite sex. Sadly, this happens all to often. Why? because each one of Father's children know that they are lacking something. Most fully realize that it is LOVE.


They are so correct. Love is indeed lacking but the love the seek in the arms of another will not fullfil the need or complete the desire. Only Father through His Love  :HeartThrob:  and Spirit can do this. Only He can fulfill  the void.


Does this mean that when this happens one should not even look at another person and appreciate them for whatever qualities that we are attracted to. I do not believe so, for we are all brothers and sisters and it surely cannot be wrong to do so. However, as brothers and sisters, do we really want to undress them in our mind and have sex with them.


Sounds kind of sick to me, yet this should not stop any from loving and or admiring with the fullness of Love that Father has blessed us with.


Now for a final question. Is it any different when I go into a jewelers and admire the fine rings, watches, etc and picture myself wearing them. I think not as this is life. Yet if I devise ways to steal what I see, then this is when admiration and appreciation becomes LUST. The line has been crossed.


Just my thoughts,


Love Julie  :HeartThrob: [size=78%]  [/size]

[irenic-inkwell]

Cardinal told me once that Father gave her the definition of lust as desiring anything apart from His good and perfect will for your life. Makes sense to me!

And yeah Irene... I do believe He puts those righteous desires in our hearts... He told me once!  :HeartThrob:

A very thought-provoking definition of lust... noteworthy and so it goes into my notebook for further study.  It explains Eve's behavior in the garden... she "knew" that she shouldn't eat the fruit lest she die ... yet she did...saw that is was good for food; pleasant to the eyes; desired to be wise.

[rosered]

Cardinal told me once that Father gave her the definition of lust as desiring anything apart from His good and perfect will for your life. Makes sense to me!

And yeah Irene... I do believe He puts those righteous desires in our hearts... He told me once!  :HeartThrob:

A very thought-provoking definition of lust... noteworthy and so it goes into my notebook for further study.  It explains Eve's behavior in the garden... she "knew" that she shouldn't eat the fruit lest she die ... yet she did...saw that is was good for food; pleasant to the eyes; desired to be wise.

AMEN   to this ,   
I know that when we consider the Lord God  in all our ways and ask Him for help in  our choices and struggles , we are blessed  , when before we didnt not even think  nor know the Lord personally , 
but went about as  trees of knowledge of good and evil   being burned up in the fires and trials of   this life   that does not know God

[Tom]

Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.

Personally, I believe lust is, as you said, a deep-seated desire.  When we allow it to get out of control, sin occurs.  James 1:14-15 [ESV], "¹⁴ But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. ¹⁵ Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."  So sin begins at the point where desire conceives. 

You have a good point about knowing just where to "draw the line" between natural desire and sin.  I think many people do have a problem with that and carry unnecessary quilt over things that are not sin.  I have been dealing with that to some extent lately - trying to draw those lines in the right places.  The Spirit helps us determine what is sin.

I like everything you have said.  :thumbsup: Remember, I have a Catholic background, and pretty much my whole life I was taught to feel guilty about my human nature so changing my ideas about this is taking a little bit of time. It is nice to have a lot less guilt and worry when it comes to these things. I just pray that God joins me with the right woman sooner or later. I'm in no rush to get married, but it would be nice to have a woman by my side.

I'm an ex-Catholic from way back, bro. Try to forget about what the church taught you, and get into the word of God. God gave us desire and sex to enjoy. You just need to enjoy sex in the proper context like everything else. Don't get on a guilt trip about your desire. Just choose a woman who is a believer; provide for her and protect her; stay focused on God's will; and God will bless your relationship.

[Warhawk17]

Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.

Personally, I believe lust is, as you said, a deep-seated desire.  When we allow it to get out of control, sin occurs.  James 1:14-15 [ESV], "¹⁴ But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. ¹⁵ Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."  So sin begins at the point where desire conceives. 

You have a good point about knowing just where to "draw the line" between natural desire and sin.  I think many people do have a problem with that and carry unnecessary quilt over things that are not sin.  I have been dealing with that to some extent lately - trying to draw those lines in the right places.  The Spirit helps us determine what is sin.

I like everything you have said.  :thumbsup: Remember, I have a Catholic background, and pretty much my whole life I was taught to feel guilty about my human nature so changing my ideas about this is taking a little bit of time. It is nice to have a lot less guilt and worry when it comes to these things. I just pray that God joins me with the right woman sooner or later. I'm in no rush to get married, but it would be nice to have a woman by my side.

I'm an ex-Catholic from way back, bro. Try to forget about what the church taught you, and get into the word of God. God gave us desire and sex to enjoy. You just need to enjoy sex in the proper context like everything else. Don't get on a guilt trip about your desire. Just choose a woman who is a believer; provide for her and protect her; stay focused on God's will; and God will bless your relationship.

Thank you! :thumbsup: It's so great how everyone here is so helpful and not condemning. I feel much freer than I did before!  :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Tom]

Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.

Personally, I believe lust is, as you said, a deep-seated desire.  When we allow it to get out of control, sin occurs.  James 1:14-15 [ESV], "¹⁴ But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. ¹⁵ Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."  So sin begins at the point where desire conceives. 

You have a good point about knowing just where to "draw the line" between natural desire and sin.  I think many people do have a problem with that and carry unnecessary quilt over things that are not sin.  I have been dealing with that to some extent lately - trying to draw those lines in the right places.  The Spirit helps us determine what is sin.

I like everything you have said.  :thumbsup: Remember, I have a Catholic background, and pretty much my whole life I was taught to feel guilty about my human nature so changing my ideas about this is taking a little bit of time. It is nice to have a lot less guilt and worry when it comes to these things. I just pray that God joins me with the right woman sooner or later. I'm in no rush to get married, but it would be nice to have a woman by my side.

I'm an ex-Catholic from way back, bro. Try to forget about what the church taught you, and get into the word of God. God gave us desire and sex to enjoy. You just need to enjoy sex in the proper context like everything else. Don't get on a guilt trip about your desire. Just choose a woman who is a believer; provide for her and protect her; stay focused on God's will; and God will bless your relationship.

Thank you! :thumbsup: It's so great how everyone here is so helpful and not condemning. I feel much freer than I did before!  :banana: :banana: :banana:

"you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free." (John 8:32)

[Warhawk17]

"Case in point:  Enter one Ben, a nice young man whom I knew many years ago.  Ben met his wife in high school, and they began their journey together right after high school.  His father was a deacon in the church, and was grieved over Ben's decision to "shack up" with his "girlfriend."  Ben and his wife are still together today and are raising a beautiful family.  They never had a ceremony, so most people think Ben is a hell-bound sinner.  Ben and his wife obviously did have commitment.  Marriage partners cannot live together without commitment.  Won't work.  But is not Ben only doing what God intended for him to do all along?  Is that not a part of God's plan for us?  Now if that is not marriage, then what is?"

Jberton I think I overlooked this part of your post when I first read it, but I am really glad you touched on this subject. One of my best friends is from a Lutheran family, and his older sister recently got married. They had been living together for the last year or so which upset both of their parents at first, but eventually they resigned to it as they already had committed to get married. However, their pastor found out they had been living together before the ceremony, and he declined to do the wedding, presumably because he would be in trouble if his higher ups found out about it.

It's ridiculous how it's not seen as official until the two are wed in some ceremony. It also shows how self righteous some pastors are. They think they are so important that they get to decide if a couple can be married or not. No ceremony, it doesn't count, and you're going to hell if you decide to get together and have a family anyway.

[Tom]

"Case in point:  Enter one Ben, a nice young man whom I knew many years ago.  Ben met his wife in high school, and they began their journey together right after high school.  His father was a deacon in the church, and was grieved over Ben's decision to "shack up" with his "girlfriend."  Ben and his wife are still together today and are raising a beautiful family.  They never had a ceremony, so most people think Ben is a hell-bound sinner.  Ben and his wife obviously did have commitment.  Marriage partners cannot live together without commitment.  Won't work.  But is not Ben only doing what God intended for him to do all along?  Is that not a part of God's plan for us?  Now if that is not marriage, then what is?"

Jberton I think I overlooked this part of your post when I first read it, but I am really glad you touched on this subject. One of my best friends is from a Lutheran family, and his older sister recently got married. They had been living together for the last year or so which upset both of their parents at first, but eventually they resigned to it as they already had committed to get married. However, their pastor found out they had been living together before the ceremony, and he declined to do the wedding, presumably because he would be in trouble if his higher ups found out about it.

It's ridiculous how it's not seen as official until the two are wed in some ceremony. It also shows how self righteous some pastors are. They think they are so important that they get to decide if a couple can be married or not. No ceremony, it doesn't count, and you're going to hell if you decide to get together and have a family anyway.

I say it's a commitment to God and each other despite what anybody else thinks. The only thing is that there are some benefits to being "legally" married like health insurance coverage for the spouse, and then you've got to think of the kids.

[jabcat]

Well, we got back around to marriage :).  I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV or even local theatre.  All the following information is a layman's opinion and should not be considered legal advice.  :)


I agree with whatever else it is or isn't, it's

a commitment to God and each other

Maybe the Lutheran preacher was too strict one direction, when maybe he could have talked with them, encouraged to confess any sin if it were present, restore them, then perform the ceremony.  Being humans still in flesh though, I also believe we can assume license to sin the other direction too, by not really being serious and scriptural about it.

As I've said before, even if not done "legally" for whatever reason [although any truly pertinent laws of the land should be fully considered], I personally very much prefer some type of comittment "cermony"/promise/observance, even if those 2 people were on a deserted island and it was "only" between them and God.  Because I believe the other side of it, which could be spiritually dangerous is, if someone "plays games with it" by not really making a holy, spiritual, honest comittment before God.  So in essence are really just "shacking up" - maybe even going from one "wife" to another with little regard to "I truly take you as my wife, I give myself to you for life [considering all related scriptural issues re: adultary, perhaps abandonment, etc.] forsaking all others, cleaving only to you", etc.   Again, with all the scriptural things that apply.   God knows what's truly in our heart, and we can't fool Him.   :2c: