Martin Zender published an essay on lust- "The Fatal Twisting of Matthew 5:28," Clanging Gong News, Volume 3, Issue 15. In short, he was saying that any desire for anything is essentially lust, be it a lust for food, money, or a lust for sex. In Mat 5.28 [ESV], Jesus said, "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Zender said that lust in general was only sinless admiration unless one actually makes plans to commit adultery. I don't fully agree with Zender. I have always drawn that line further back - where a person fantasizes about the act of adultery (actually does the act in his mind) - whether he actually makes plans or not. The only version in Blueletter that uses the words "with lustful intent" is the ESV. None of the rest of the versions in Blueletter use the word "intent." IMO, intent indicates the making of plans to commit adultery. I like the Rotherham Emphasized bible. Rotherham translated the verse, "But, I, say unto you, that, Every one who looketh on a woman so as to covet her, already, hath committed adultery with her, in his heart." I notice here the phrase "so as to covet." This seems to me to also indicate something stronger than mere admiration, but not so strong as making plans. To covet is to burn for, strongly desire, want really bad - to the point of being motivate to act. The word covet seems to indicate an obsessive yearning for something. Maybe that is where the line should be drawn. Perhaps that is what Jesus meant in Mat 5.28. When the admiration grows to level of coveting desire, it becomes sin.
What do you think?
God fulfills the desiresof therighteous..........take nothought..as to what shall we eat,
what shaaall wewear..the Lord knows ye needthem...seek first the Kingdom..and all these
things shall be addedunto you.
we cananddohave 'righteous' desires. ajob to provide..a wife[Gift from God] I think the
crux ofit is..covet anything that is yourneighbors..andtrusting God togive you whatis yours.
He has told us,Heknows what we need.
as related toahusband andwife....Christ and His church...awife does not demandwhat her
husbandis unableorunwilling to provide...so showydisplaysof ones mean's oflife..Heis
unwilling to provide. Few things are necessary.....
I have seen rich men..satisfied with the workoftheir own haands..andnot alover of money
andI have seen poor coveting a rich man's possessions. It can be .either way...thething is
finding 'contentment' whether rich or poor. Whether with your own wife/hudband.
I've seen many a beautiful woman..treated shoddily in marriage..I have seenother women
have happy marriages,truly lovedof their husbands..a love not based on mere appearances.
thyankful appreciation for what He has given us........and righteous desires will be granted.
the daughter of the leach..says give! give! never saitisfied always wanting more..
nothing is ever enough! if I had toidentify it..I would reckon it as the spirit ofcovetnous
good topic :thumbsup:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 12, 2013, 10:50:08 PM
Martin Zender published an essay on lust- "The Fatal Twisting of Matthew 5:28," Clanging Gong News, Volume 3, Issue 15. In short, he was saying that any desire for anything is essentially lust, be it a lust for food, money, or a lust for sex. In Mat 5.28 [ESV], Jesus said, "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Zender said that lust in general was only sinless admiration unless one actually makes plans to commit adultery. I don't fully agree with Zender. I have always drawn that line further back - where a person fantasizes about the act of adultery (actually does the act in his mind) - whether he actually makes plans or not. The only version in Blueletter that uses the words "with lustful intent" is the ESV. None of the rest of the versions in Blueletter use the word "intent." IMO, intent indicates the making of plans to commit adultery. I like the Rotherham Emphasized bible. Rotherham translated the verse, "But, I, say unto you, that, Every one who looketh on a woman so as to covet her, already, hath committed adultery with her, in his heart." I notice here the phrase "so as to covet." This seems to me to also indicate something stronger than mere admiration, but not so strong as making plans. To covet is to burn for, strongly desire, want really bad - to the point of being motivate to act. The word covet seems to indicate an obsessive yearning for something. Maybe that is where the line should be drawn. Perhaps that is what Jesus meant in Mat 5.28. When the admiration grows to level of coveting desire, it becomes sin.
What do you think?
The Greek "epithumio," literally "on-feel," and "epithumia," literally "on-feeling," are used for both "desire" and "lust." I think what Martin was saying is desire is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact it's natural. It is evil desire that is sin. In Luke 22:15 the word is used by Christ when he expresses his yearning to eat the passover with his apostles.
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Quote from: sheila on September 12, 2013, 11:29:41 PM
God fulfills the desiresof therighteous..........take nothought..as to what shall we eat,
what shaaall wewear..the Lord knows ye needthem...seek first the Kingdom..and all these
things shall be addedunto you.
we cananddohave 'righteous' desires. ajob to provide..a wife[Gift from God] I think the
crux ofit is..covet anything that is yourneighbors..andtrusting God togive you whatis yours.
He has told us,Heknows what we need.
as related toahusband andwife....Christ and His church...awife does not demandwhat her
husbandis unableorunwilling to provide...so showydisplaysof ones mean's oflife..Heis
unwilling to provide. Few things are necessary.....
I have seen rich men..satisfied with the workoftheir own haands..andnot alover of money
andI have seen poor coveting a rich man's possessions. It can be .either way...thething is
finding 'contentment' whether rich or poor. Whether with your own wife/hudband.
I've seen many a beautiful woman..treated shoddily in marriage..I have seenother women
have happy marriages,truly lovedof their husbands..a love not based on mere appearances.
thyankful appreciation for what He has given us........and righteous desires will be granted.
good topic :thumbsup:
Thank you Sheila--your post is a great personal blessing. I'm in great need of refocusing some of my thought patterns... instead of thinking about how long it would take for admiring to turn into planning/coveting, your post encourages me...
keep my eyes on Jesus... single eye Matt 6:22
seek first the kingdom... Matt 6:33
and mostly-- remember/believe God fulfills the desires of the righteous...does He not put those desires into our minds and hearts?
Cardinal told me once that Father gave her the definition of lust as desiring anything apart from His good and perfect will for your life. Makes sense to me!
And yeah Irene... I do believe He puts those righteous desires in our hearts... He told me once! :HeartThrob:
:2c:I can look at a mountain or lake or stream and admire the beauty. I cannot desire it for my own personal possession.
Coveting, is wanting what someone else has or something that you want for your own possession (even if just for a few minutes. :2c:
Thanks for some great posts everyone! As a male college student, there are a lot of temptations out there. I do think what Zender says is mostly true though. I think it's ok for me to look at a woman on campus though and think, "Wow she's beautiful." I think of that as simply admiring God's creation. If that girl was with another guy though, and I pictured having sex with her, I would be guilty of committing adultery in my heart. Believe me, I have definitely stumbled in this area, and I have to say thank God for his amazing grace!
I have a question though. What if I meet a single girl and go away from meeting her thinking, "Wow she is beautiful and such a sweetheart! I want her to be mine!" I think that is perfectly fine because in that situation, I would ask her on a date and make her my girlfriend and hope she is the one. If I desired nothing but sex with her and didn't want an intimate relationship, I know that would be wrong. Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?
Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control. It is an automated response when you come under pressures of life. It is the desire that fuels addictions.
At it's heart, it comes from offences against us...undealt with pain or moments of great fear that have never been healed. These are strongholds. Sometimes from personal experience, sometimes passed down as generational iniquities.
If you have little or no control, it is a lust. Why is it a sin? Because it has become a god to us and we serve it and not God.
To overcome, you need to be emotionally ready to face up to it. You pray for God to reveal how the offense came into your life. Usually he will quicken a thought immediately. Sometimes you have to seek more. The answer may not make sense at first, but meditate on it and God will reveal more. Then it is a matter of taking responsibility (atone) for the offense. This may involve forgiving others, releasing others from our judgement, forgiveness for our own words against ourselves or believing the cursing words of others? Then ask God to come into that area and bring cleansing and healing. To be God in that high place.
Then as the healing presence of God's spirit cleanses you, it will feel like cool water from a mountain stream moving through and refreshing you. I have been through it myself.
These lusts come from raw need for comfort from real pain, guilt and shame.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.
God isn't interested in tricking us into sin. He's not waiting with baited breath for us to trip up with our eyes and what we see? That isn't his nature. Why do people think that it is? He made everything for us to become like him. To succeed. Not to fail.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Isn't that wonderful news?
:banana: :banana: :banana: Love these bananas
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 03:01:32 AM
Thanks for some great posts everyone! As a male college student, there are a lot of temptations out there. I do think what Zender says is mostly true though. I think it's ok for me to look at a woman on campus though and think, "Wow she's beautiful." I think of that as simply admiring God's creation. If that girl was with another guy though, and I pictured having sex with her, I would be guilty of committing adultery in my heart. Believe me, I have definitely stumbled in this area, and I have to say thank God for his amazing grace!
I have a question though. What if I meet a single girl and go away from meeting her thinking, "Wow she is beautiful and such a sweetheart! I want her to be mine!" I think that is perfectly fine because in that situation, I would ask her on a date and make her my girlfriend and hope she is the one. If I desired nothing but sex with her and didn't want an intimate relationship, I know that would be wrong. Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?
I think sex is "an intimate relationship," bro. The Concordant Version calls what you're referring to "prostitution," but other versions use the word "fornication." It seems that God intends sex for marriage. Marriage is a spiritual and fleshly union that is a lifelong commitment blessed by God.
"Therefore a man shall forsake his father and his mother and cling to his wife, and they two become one flesh." (Genesis 2:24)
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Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 03:01:32 AM
Thanks for some great posts everyone! As a male college student, there are a lot of temptations out there. I do think what Zender says is mostly true though. I think it's ok for me to look at a woman on campus though and think, "Wow she's beautiful." I think of that as simply admiring God's creation. If that girl was with another guy though, and I pictured having sex with her, I would be guilty of committing adultery in my heart. Believe me, I have definitely stumbled in this area, and I have to say thank God for his amazing grace!
I have a question though. What if I meet a single girl and go away from meeting her thinking, "Wow she is beautiful and such a sweetheart! I want her to be mine!" I think that is perfectly fine because in that situation, I would ask her on a date and make her my girlfriend and hope she is the one. If I desired nothing but sex with her and didn't want an intimate relationship, I know that would be wrong. Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?
Good question, and glad you asked. This is a pet subject of mine. This is all MY OPINION.
What we in our culture call marriage is usually the legal arrangement of marriage, which many states are now fighting to define. Does God recognize this as marriage? Don't think so. Don't think he cares about marriage liscenses. Then there is the wedding ceremony most people, especially Christians, think is necessary to perform in order to be married. Does God respect the ceremony, hear the preacher's elegant word's, and call it marriage, and say, "It is good."? Don't think so. Don't think he cares about ceremonies. Marriage is a commitment to a person of the opposite sex to do the things that are "said" in the ceremony - but the commitment is not what is done in the church or in the judge's chamber, it is what is lived out through the rest of your life. Anyone can say a commitment, but it's only good if it is lived out. Did the men of old have marriage liscenses? Maybe, but probably mostly not. Did they have ceremonies? Probably some did, but not most.
In the bible, it is commonly said that So-n-so "took her to be his wife..." There are mentions of wedding feasts and such, but their customs were so different from ours that we probably would not recognize it as a "wedding." You see, the wedding takes place after the ceremony, in the bedroom (or where ever :laughing7:). The marriage continues for life. Marriage is a life arrangement, not what takes place at the church "wedding."
Now to attempt to answer your question. I believe it is all about your intentions of commitment. When a man meets a special lady, or a woman meets a special man, it is good and right in God's sight to desire that person. Here is where is gets tricky. IMO, to enter into a sexual relationship at this point IS marriage. To marry, or wed, is to unite. Sexual union, IMO, is the most basic part of marriage, because you become one with that person. Of course, to keep from falling into sin, one must be committed. And a marriage commitment is a lifetime commitment, and not to be taken lightly.
Make no mistake. I am not saying that to have sex with another person is the same thing as marriage. It's not, IMO. Sex outside of marriage commitment is sin. I believe God intends for us to mate for life. To have sex with your dates on Saturday nights is sin. To unite, and as the bible says, "become one" with a prostitute is sin. Promiscuity is sin.
So when is it NOT a sin? Consider this ideal scenario:
A man and a woman meet. They begin to date. They grow into a deep friendship, and love results, as they strive to help each other grow spiritually. They decide they want to be together for the rest of their lives, so they decide to marry, or unite. They make their plans, make a lifetime commitment to each other, and then begin their journey together. Was a liscense necessary? Was a church ceremony necessary? Was saying the right words necessary? Was a preacher or probate judge necessary?
Case in point: Enter one Ben, a nice young man whom I knew many years ago. Ben met his wife in high school, and they began their journey together right after high school. His father was a deacon in the church, and was grieved over Ben's decision to "shack up" with his "girlfriend." Ben and his wife are still together today and are raising a beautiful family. They never had a ceremony, so most people think Ben is a hell-bound sinner. Ben and his wife obviously
did have commitment. Marriage partners cannot live together without commitment. Won't work. But is not Ben only doing what God intended for him to do all along? Is that not a part of God's plan for us? Now if that is not marriage, then what is?
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 03:01:32 AM
Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?
YES.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 13, 2013, 04:01:30 AM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 03:01:32 AM
Thanks for some great posts everyone! As a male college student, there are a lot of temptations out there. I do think what Zender says is mostly true though. I think it's ok for me to look at a woman on campus though and think, "Wow she's beautiful." I think of that as simply admiring God's creation. If that girl was with another guy though, and I pictured having sex with her, I would be guilty of committing adultery in my heart. Believe me, I have definitely stumbled in this area, and I have to say thank God for his amazing grace!
I have a question though. What if I meet a single girl and go away from meeting her thinking, "Wow she is beautiful and such a sweetheart! I want her to be mine!" I think that is perfectly fine because in that situation, I would ask her on a date and make her my girlfriend and hope she is the one. If I desired nothing but sex with her and didn't want an intimate relationship, I know that would be wrong. Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?
Good question, and glad you asked. This is a pet subject of mine. This is all MY OPINION.
What we in our culture call marriage is usually the legal arrangement of marriage, which many states are now fighting to define. Does God recognize this as marriage? Don't think so. Don't think he cares about marriage liscenses. Then there is the wedding ceremony most people, especially Christians, think is necessary to perform in order to be married. Does God respect the ceremony, hear the preacher's elegant word's, and call it marriage, and say, "It is good."? Don't think so. Don't think he cares about ceremonies. Marriage is a commitment to a person of the opposite sex to do the things that are "said" in the ceremony - but the commitment is not what is done in the church or in the judge's chamber, it is what is lived out through the rest of your life. Anyone can say a commitment, but it's only good if it is lived out. Did the men of old have marriage liscenses? Maybe, but probably mostly not. Did they have ceremonies? Probably some did, but not most.
In the bible, it is commonly said that So-n-so "took her to be his wife..." There are mentions of wedding feasts and such, but their customs were so different from ours that we probably would not recognize it as a "wedding." You see, the wedding takes place after the ceremony, in the bedroom (or where ever :laughing7:). The marriage continues for life. Marriage is a life arrangement, not what takes place at the church "wedding."
Now to attempt to answer your question. I believe it is all about your intentions of commitment. When a man meets a special lady, or a woman meets a special man, it is good and right in God's sight to desire that person. Here is where is gets tricky. IMO, to enter into a sexual relationship at this point IS marriage. To marry, or wed, is to unite. Sexual union, IMO, is the most basic part of marriage, because you become one with that person. Of course, to keep from falling into sin, one must be committed. And a marriage commitment is a lifetime commitment, and not to be taken lightly.
Make no mistake. I am not saying that to have sex with another person is the same thing as marriage. It's not, IMO. Sex outside of marriage commitment is sin. I believe God intends for us to mate for life. To have sex with your dates on Saturday nights is sin. To unite, and as the bible says, "become one" with a prostitute is sin. Promiscuity is sin.
So when is it NOT a sin? Consider this ideal scenario:
A man and a woman meet. They begin to date. They grow into a deep friendship, and love results, as they strive to help each other grow spiritually. They decide they want to be together for the rest of their lives, so they decide to marry, or unite. They make their plans, make a lifetime commitment to each other, and then begin their journey together. Was a liscense necessary? Was a church ceremony necessary? Was saying the right words necessary? Was a preacher or probate judge necessary?
Case in point: Enter one Ben, a nice young man whom I knew many years ago. Ben met his wife in high school, and they began their journey together right after high school. His father was a deacon in the church, and was grieved over Ben's decision to "shack up" with his "girlfriend." Ben and his wife are still together today and are raising a beautiful family. They never had a ceremony, so most people think Ben is a hell-bound sinner. Ben and his wife obviously did have commitment. Marriage partners cannot live together without commitment. Won't work. But is not Ben only doing what God intended for him to do all along? Is that not a part of God's plan for us? Now if that is not marriage, then what is?
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 03:01:32 AM
Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?
YES.
I think you said it well, bro.
Quote from: watchman1706 on September 13, 2013, 03:17:30 AM
Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.
Personally, I believe lust is, as you said, a deep-seated desire. When we allow it to get out of control, sin occurs. James 1:14-15 [ESV], "
14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." So sin begins at the point where desire conceives.
You have a good point about knowing just where to "draw the line" between natural desire and sin. I think many people do have a problem with that and carry unnecessary quilt over things that are not sin. I have been dealing with that to some extent lately - trying to draw those lines in the right places. The Spirit helps us determine what is sin.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 13, 2013, 04:23:21 AM
Quote from: watchman1706 on September 13, 2013, 03:17:30 AM
Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.
Personally, I believe lust is, as you said, a deep-seated desire. When we allow it to get out of control, sin occurs. James 1:14-15 [ESV], "14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." So sin begins at the point where desire conceives.
You have a good point about knowing just where to "draw the line" between natural desire and sin. I think many people do have a problem with that and carry unnecessary quilt over things that are not sin. I have been dealing with that to some extent lately - trying to draw those lines in the right places. The Spirit helps us determine what is sin.
I like everything you have said. :thumbsup: Remember, I have a Catholic background, and pretty much my whole life I was taught to feel guilty about my human nature so changing my ideas about this is taking a little bit of time. It is nice to have a lot less guilt and worry when it comes to these things. I just pray that God joins me with the right woman sooner or later. I'm in no rush to get married, but it would be nice to have a woman by my side.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 13, 2013, 04:01:30 AM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 03:01:32 AM
Thanks for some great posts everyone! As a male college student, there are a lot of temptations out there. I do think what Zender says is mostly true though. I think it's ok for me to look at a woman on campus though and think, "Wow she's beautiful." I think of that as simply admiring God's creation. If that girl was with another guy though, and I pictured having sex with her, I would be guilty of committing adultery in my heart. Believe me, I have definitely stumbled in this area, and I have to say thank God for his amazing grace!
I have a question though. What if I meet a single girl and go away from meeting her thinking, "Wow she is beautiful and such a sweetheart! I want her to be mine!" I think that is perfectly fine because in that situation, I would ask her on a date and make her my girlfriend and hope she is the one. If I desired nothing but sex with her and didn't want an intimate relationship, I know that would be wrong. Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?
Good question, and glad you asked. This is a pet subject of mine. This is all MY OPINION.
What we in our culture call marriage is usually the legal arrangement of marriage, which many states are now fighting to define. Does God recognize this as marriage? Don't think so. Don't think he cares about marriage liscenses. Then there is the wedding ceremony most people, especially Christians, think is necessary to perform in order to be married. Does God respect the ceremony, hear the preacher's elegant word's, and call it marriage, and say, "It is good."? Don't think so. Don't think he cares about ceremonies. Marriage is a commitment to a person of the opposite sex to do the things that are "said" in the ceremony - but the commitment is not what is done in the church or in the judge's chamber, it is what is lived out through the rest of your life. Anyone can say a commitment, but it's only good if it is lived out. Did the men of old have marriage liscenses? Maybe, but probably mostly not. Did they have ceremonies? Probably some did, but not most.
In the bible, it is commonly said that So-n-so "took her to be his wife..." There are mentions of wedding feasts and such, but their customs were so different from ours that we probably would not recognize it as a "wedding." You see, the wedding takes place after the ceremony, in the bedroom (or where ever :laughing7:). The marriage continues for life. Marriage is a life arrangement, not what takes place at the church "wedding."
Now to attempt to answer your question. I believe it is all about your intentions of commitment. When a man meets a special lady, or a woman meets a special man, it is good and right in God's sight to desire that person. Here is where is gets tricky. IMO, to enter into a sexual relationship at this point IS marriage. To marry, or wed, is to unite. Sexual union, IMO, is the most basic part of marriage, because you become one with that person. Of course, to keep from falling into sin, one must be committed. And a marriage commitment is a lifetime commitment, and not to be taken lightly.
Make no mistake. I am not saying that to have sex with another person is the same thing as marriage. It's not, IMO. Sex outside of marriage commitment is sin. I believe God intends for us to mate for life. To have sex with your dates on Saturday nights is sin. To unite, and as the bible says, "become one" with a prostitute is sin. Promiscuity is sin.
So when is it NOT a sin? Consider this ideal scenario:
A man and a woman meet. They begin to date. They grow into a deep friendship, and love results, as they strive to help each other grow spiritually. They decide they want to be together for the rest of their lives, so they decide to marry, or unite. They make their plans, make a lifetime commitment to each other, and then begin their journey together. Was a liscense necessary? Was a church ceremony necessary? Was saying the right words necessary? Was a preacher or probate judge necessary?
Case in point: Enter one Ben, a nice young man whom I knew many years ago. Ben met his wife in high school, and they began their journey together right after high school. His father was a deacon in the church, and was grieved over Ben's decision to "shack up" with his "girlfriend." Ben and his wife are still together today and are raising a beautiful family. They never had a ceremony, so most people think Ben is a hell-bound sinner. Ben and his wife obviously did have commitment. Marriage partners cannot live together without commitment. Won't work. But is not Ben only doing what God intended for him to do all along? Is that not a part of God's plan for us? Now if that is not marriage, then what is?
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 03:01:32 AM
Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?
YES.
I think you're pretty bang on jbb. The only thing I would add (and a VERY important detail) is to MAKE SURE you are marrying who FATHER tells you to marry. And NOT to marry ANYONE He tells you not to. PLEASE listen to me here... if you listen to these words it can save you years (and even a lifetime) of heartache, and ensure you a lifetime of blessing.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 13, 2013, 04:01:30 AM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 03:01:32 AM
Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?
YES.
:Chinscratch:
Sex with a woman married to another man is strictly forbidden. Sex with unmarried women is not.
Jacob had 4. http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/sons-of-jacob/msg137879/#msg137879
Solomon had 300 women.
In this verse sex often equals marriage:
Exodus 22:16-17
"If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins.
Solomon and his wife Abishag/Shunammite didn't want a long betrothal period and suggested immediate consummation to seal the marriage.
:2c:
Wow so many good points.
But only Father knows the hearts of men and of course women. We are dealing with a classic bell curve here.
If one has little knowledge (a small light of truth) and sleeps with someone they are not married to, is that a great as sin as anyone here doing the same?
Only Father can judge the intent of ones mind. Sometimes the need to feel "whole" can only be acheived in an intimate way with another of the opposite sex. Sadly, this happens all to often. Why? because each one of Father's children know that they are lacking something. Most fully realize that it is LOVE.
They are so correct. Love is indeed lacking but the love the seek in the arms of another will not fullfil the need or complete the desire. Only Father through His Love :HeartThrob: and Spirit can do this. Only He can fulfill the void.
Does this mean that when this happens one should not even look at another person and appreciate them for whatever qualities that we are attracted to. I do not believe so, for we are all brothers and sisters and it surely cannot be wrong to do so. However, as brothers and sisters, do we really want to undress them in our mind and have sex with them.
Sounds kind of sick to me, yet this should not stop any from loving and or admiring with the fullness of Love that Father has blessed us with.
Now for a final question. Is it any different when I go into a jewelers and admire the fine rings, watches, etc and picture myself wearing them. I think not as this is life. Yet if I devise ways to steal what I see, then this is when admiration and appreciation becomes LUST. The line has been crossed.
Just my thoughts,
Love Julie :HeartThrob: [size=78%] [/size]
Quote from: lomarah on September 13, 2013, 01:20:06 AM
Cardinal told me once that Father gave her the definition of lust as desiring anything apart from His good and perfect will for your life. Makes sense to me!
And yeah Irene... I do believe He puts those righteous desires in our hearts... He told me once! :HeartThrob:
A very thought-provoking definition of lust... noteworthy and so it goes into my notebook for further study. It explains Eve's behavior in the garden... she "knew" that she shouldn't eat the fruit lest she die ... yet she did...saw that is was good for food; pleasant to the eyes; desired to be wise.
Quote from: irenic-inkwell on September 13, 2013, 05:57:29 PM
Quote from: lomarah on September 13, 2013, 01:20:06 AM
Cardinal told me once that Father gave her the definition of lust as desiring anything apart from His good and perfect will for your life. Makes sense to me!
And yeah Irene... I do believe He puts those righteous desires in our hearts... He told me once! :HeartThrob:
A very thought-provoking definition of lust... noteworthy and so it goes into my notebook for further study. It explains Eve's behavior in the garden... she "knew" that she shouldn't eat the fruit lest she die ... yet she did...saw that is was good for food; pleasant to the eyes; desired to be wise.
AMEN to this ,
I know that when we consider the Lord God in all our ways and ask Him for help in our choices and struggles , we are blessed , when before we didnt not even think nor know the Lord personally ,
but went about as trees of knowledge of good and evil being burned up in the fires and trials of this life that does not know God
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 05:25:58 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 13, 2013, 04:23:21 AM
Quote from: watchman1706 on September 13, 2013, 03:17:30 AM
Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.
Personally, I believe lust is, as you said, a deep-seated desire. When we allow it to get out of control, sin occurs. James 1:14-15 [ESV], "14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." So sin begins at the point where desire conceives.
You have a good point about knowing just where to "draw the line" between natural desire and sin. I think many people do have a problem with that and carry unnecessary quilt over things that are not sin. I have been dealing with that to some extent lately - trying to draw those lines in the right places. The Spirit helps us determine what is sin.
I like everything you have said. :thumbsup: Remember, I have a Catholic background, and pretty much my whole life I was taught to feel guilty about my human nature so changing my ideas about this is taking a little bit of time. It is nice to have a lot less guilt and worry when it comes to these things. I just pray that God joins me with the right woman sooner or later. I'm in no rush to get married, but it would be nice to have a woman by my side.
I'm an ex-Catholic from way back, bro. Try to forget about what the church taught you, and get into the word of God. God gave us desire and sex to enjoy. You just need to enjoy sex in the proper context like everything else. Don't get on a guilt trip about your desire. Just choose a woman who is a believer; provide for her and protect her; stay focused on God's will; and God will bless your relationship.
Quote from: Tom on September 13, 2013, 07:32:31 PM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 05:25:58 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 13, 2013, 04:23:21 AM
Quote from: watchman1706 on September 13, 2013, 03:17:30 AM
Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.
Personally, I believe lust is, as you said, a deep-seated desire. When we allow it to get out of control, sin occurs. James 1:14-15 [ESV], "14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." So sin begins at the point where desire conceives.
You have a good point about knowing just where to "draw the line" between natural desire and sin. I think many people do have a problem with that and carry unnecessary quilt over things that are not sin. I have been dealing with that to some extent lately - trying to draw those lines in the right places. The Spirit helps us determine what is sin.
I like everything you have said. :thumbsup: Remember, I have a Catholic background, and pretty much my whole life I was taught to feel guilty about my human nature so changing my ideas about this is taking a little bit of time. It is nice to have a lot less guilt and worry when it comes to these things. I just pray that God joins me with the right woman sooner or later. I'm in no rush to get married, but it would be nice to have a woman by my side.
I'm an ex-Catholic from way back, bro. Try to forget about what the church taught you, and get into the word of God. God gave us desire and sex to enjoy. You just need to enjoy sex in the proper context like everything else. Don't get on a guilt trip about your desire. Just choose a woman who is a believer; provide for her and protect her; stay focused on God's will; and God will bless your relationship.
Thank you! :thumbsup: It's so great how everyone here is so helpful and not condemning. I feel much freer than I did before! :banana: :banana: :banana:
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 14, 2013, 02:00:30 AM
Quote from: Tom on September 13, 2013, 07:32:31 PM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 05:25:58 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 13, 2013, 04:23:21 AM
Quote from: watchman1706 on September 13, 2013, 03:17:30 AM
Wow...a real lack of knowledge here. Lust is not a momentary desire, a moment of arousal. That's a biological response and not a sin.
When the bible is talking about 'lust', it is talking about a deep seated desire that comes from a place where you have little or no control.
So don't feel guilty for momentary flashes of arousal. That doesn't mean licence to sin. But it is important to know what really IS sinful and not to have needless guilt for a lack of knowledge.
Personally, I believe lust is, as you said, a deep-seated desire. When we allow it to get out of control, sin occurs. James 1:14-15 [ESV], "14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." So sin begins at the point where desire conceives.
You have a good point about knowing just where to "draw the line" between natural desire and sin. I think many people do have a problem with that and carry unnecessary quilt over things that are not sin. I have been dealing with that to some extent lately - trying to draw those lines in the right places. The Spirit helps us determine what is sin.
I like everything you have said. :thumbsup: Remember, I have a Catholic background, and pretty much my whole life I was taught to feel guilty about my human nature so changing my ideas about this is taking a little bit of time. It is nice to have a lot less guilt and worry when it comes to these things. I just pray that God joins me with the right woman sooner or later. I'm in no rush to get married, but it would be nice to have a woman by my side.
I'm an ex-Catholic from way back, bro. Try to forget about what the church taught you, and get into the word of God. God gave us desire and sex to enjoy. You just need to enjoy sex in the proper context like everything else. Don't get on a guilt trip about your desire. Just choose a woman who is a believer; provide for her and protect her; stay focused on God's will; and God will bless your relationship.
Thank you! :thumbsup: It's so great how everyone here is so helpful and not condemning. I feel much freer than I did before! :banana: :banana: :banana:
"you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free." (John 8:32)
"Case in point: Enter one Ben, a nice young man whom I knew many years ago. Ben met his wife in high school, and they began their journey together right after high school. His father was a deacon in the church, and was grieved over Ben's decision to "shack up" with his "girlfriend." Ben and his wife are still together today and are raising a beautiful family. They never had a ceremony, so most people think Ben is a hell-bound sinner. Ben and his wife obviously did have commitment. Marriage partners cannot live together without commitment. Won't work. But is not Ben only doing what God intended for him to do all along? Is that not a part of God's plan for us? Now if that is not marriage, then what is?"
Jberton I think I overlooked this part of your post when I first read it, but I am really glad you touched on this subject. One of my best friends is from a Lutheran family, and his older sister recently got married. They had been living together for the last year or so which upset both of their parents at first, but eventually they resigned to it as they already had committed to get married. However, their pastor found out they had been living together before the ceremony, and he declined to do the wedding, presumably because he would be in trouble if his higher ups found out about it.
It's ridiculous how it's not seen as official until the two are wed in some ceremony. It also shows how self righteous some pastors are. They think they are so important that they get to decide if a couple can be married or not. No ceremony, it doesn't count, and you're going to hell if you decide to get together and have a family anyway.
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 14, 2013, 02:19:55 AM
"Case in point: Enter one Ben, a nice young man whom I knew many years ago. Ben met his wife in high school, and they began their journey together right after high school. His father was a deacon in the church, and was grieved over Ben's decision to "shack up" with his "girlfriend." Ben and his wife are still together today and are raising a beautiful family. They never had a ceremony, so most people think Ben is a hell-bound sinner. Ben and his wife obviously did have commitment. Marriage partners cannot live together without commitment. Won't work. But is not Ben only doing what God intended for him to do all along? Is that not a part of God's plan for us? Now if that is not marriage, then what is?"
Jberton I think I overlooked this part of your post when I first read it, but I am really glad you touched on this subject. One of my best friends is from a Lutheran family, and his older sister recently got married. They had been living together for the last year or so which upset both of their parents at first, but eventually they resigned to it as they already had committed to get married. However, their pastor found out they had been living together before the ceremony, and he declined to do the wedding, presumably because he would be in trouble if his higher ups found out about it.
It's ridiculous how it's not seen as official until the two are wed in some ceremony. It also shows how self righteous some pastors are. They think they are so important that they get to decide if a couple can be married or not. No ceremony, it doesn't count, and you're going to hell if you decide to get together and have a family anyway.
I say it's a commitment to God and each other despite what anybody else thinks. The only thing is that there are some benefits to being "legally" married like health insurance coverage for the spouse, and then you've got to think of the kids.
Well, we got back around to marriage :). I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV or even local theatre. All the following information is a layman's opinion and should not be considered legal advice. :)
I agree with whatever else it is or isn't, it's
Quote from: Tom on September 14, 2013, 02:34:59 AM
a commitment to God and each other
Maybe the Lutheran preacher was too strict one direction, when maybe he could have talked with them, encouraged to confess any sin if it were present, restore them, then perform the ceremony. Being humans still in flesh though, I also believe we can assume license to sin the other direction too, by not really being serious and scriptural about it.
As I've said before, even if not done "legally" for whatever reason [although any truly pertinent laws of the land should be fully considered], I personally very much prefer some type of comittment "cermony"/promise/observance, even if those 2 people were on a deserted island and it was "only" between them and God. Because I believe the other side of it, which could be spiritually dangerous is, if someone "plays games with it" by not really making a holy, spiritual, honest comittment before God. So in essence are really just "shacking up" - maybe even going from one "wife" to another with little regard to "I truly take you as my wife, I give myself to you for life [considering all related scriptural issues re: adultary, perhaps abandonment, etc.] forsaking all others, cleaving only to you", etc. Again, with
all the scriptural things that apply. God knows what's truly in our heart, and we can't fool Him. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2013, 03:49:10 AM
Well, we got back around to marriage :). I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV or even local theatre. All the following information is a layman's opinion and should not be considered legal advice. :)
I agree with whatever else it is or isn't, it's Quote from: Tom on September 14, 2013, 02:34:59 AM
a commitment to God and each other
Maybe the Lutheran preacher was too strict one direction, when maybe he could have talked with them, encouraged to confess any sin if it were present, restore them, then perform the ceremony. Being humans still in flesh though, I also believe we can assume license to sin the other direction too, by not really being serious and scriptural about it.
As I've said before, even if not done "legally" for whatever reason [although any truly pertinent laws of the land should be fully considered], I personally very much prefer some type of comittment "cermony"/promise/observance, even if those 2 people were on a deserted island and it was "only" between them and God. Because I believe the other side of it, which could be spiritually dangerous is, if someone "plays games with it" by not really making a holy, spiritual, honest comittment before God. So in essence are really just "shacking up" - maybe even going from one "wife" to another with little regard to "I truly take you as my wife, I give myself to you for life [considering all related scriptural issues re: adultary, perhaps abandonment, etc.] forsaking all others, cleaving only to you", etc. Again, with all the scriptural things that apply. God knows what's truly in our heart, and we can't fool Him. :2c:
That's why folks usually have a "ceremony" in front of witnesses, but it doesn't have to be conducted by a clergyman who preaches God will torture most of mankind forever in fire. It could just be some close friends sharing some verses from the inspired written word of God about love and marriage and praying together asking God to bless the couple. And if it really is a lifelong commitment, it is easier to function legally as a family in society if the marriage is legal.
It's not easy to be celibate in today's world with the continuous bombardment of sexuality in the media, but one of the fruits of the spirit is "self-control."
"the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22,23)
A believer needs to make a personal decision to be celibate or married. Speaking from experience, I say both are a blessing, but you need to be honest with God and yourself. If you're not willing to commit yourself to somebody, you should remain celibate. God's love is sufficient when you stay focused on the spirit. The best way to do that is through the word of God.
"1 Now, concerning what you write to me: It is ideal for a man not to be touching a woman.
2 Yet, because of prostitutions, let each man have a wife for himself and each woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render to the wife her due, yet likewise the wife also to the husband.
4 The wife has not the jurisdiction of her own body, but the husband, yet likewise the husband also has not the jurisdiction of his own body, but the wife.
5 Do not deprive one another, except sometime it should be by agreement for a period, that you should have leisure for prayer, and you may be the same again, lest Satan may be trying you because of your incontinence.
6 Now this I am saying as a concession, not as an injunction.
7 For I want all men to be as I myself also, but each has his own gracious gift from God, one indeed, thus, yet one thus.
8 Now I am saying to the unmarried and the widows, that it is ideal for them if ever they should be remaining even as I.
9 Yet if they are not controlling themselves, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.
10 Now to the married I am charging, not I, but the Lord: A wife is not to be separated from her husband.
11 Yet if she should be separated also, let her remain unmarried or be conciliated to her husband. And a husband is not to leave his wife.
12 Now to the rest am I speaking, not the Lord. If any brother has an unbelieving wife, and she approves of making a home with him, let him not leave her.
13 And a wife who has an unbelieving husband, and he approves of making a home with her, let her not leave her husband.
14 For the unbelieving husband is hallowed by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is hallowed by the brother, else, consequently, your children are unclean. Yet now they are holy.
15 Yet if the unbeliever is separating, let him separate. A brother or a sister is not enslaved in such a case. Now God has called us in peace.
16 For of what are you aware, O wife -- will you be saving your husband -- or of what are you aware, O husband -- will you be saving your wife --
17 except as the Lord parts it to each? Each as God has called him, thus let him be walking. And thus am I prescribing in all the ecclesias.
18 Was anyone called having been circumcised? Let him not be de-circumcised. Is anyone called in uncircumcision? Let him not circumcise.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the precepts of God.
20 Each one in the calling in which he was called, in this let him be remaining.
21 Were you called a slave? Let it not be causing you care. But if you are able to become free also, use it rather.
22 For, in the Lord, he who is being called a slave, is the Lord's freedman. Likewise, he who is being called, being free, is a slave of Christ.
23 With a price are you bought. Do not become the slaves of men.
24 Each one, in what he was called, brethren, in this let him remain with God.
25 Now concerning the celibates or virgins, I have no injunction of the Lord. Yet an opinion am I giving, as one who has enjoyed mercy by the Lord to be faithful.
26 I am inferring, then, this ideal to be inherent, because of the present necessity, for it is ideal for humanity to be thus.
27 You are bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. You have been loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife.
28 Yet if you ever should be marrying, also, you did not sin. And if the virgin should be marrying, she did not sin. Yet affliction in the flesh will such be having. Yet I am sparing you.
29 Now this I am averring, brethren, the era is limited; that, furthermore, those also having wives may be as not having them,
30 and those lamenting as not lamenting, and those rejoicing as not rejoicing, and those buying as not retaining,
31 and those using this world as not using it up. For the fashion of this world is passing by.
32 Now I want you to be without worry. The unmarried one is solicitous about the things of the Lord, how he should be pleasing the Lord.
33 Yet he who marries is solicitous about the things of the world, how he should be pleasing his wife,
34 and is parted. The unmarried woman as well as the virgin: the unmarried one is solicitous about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy in body as well as in spirit, yet she who marries is solicitous about the things of the world, how she should be pleasing her husband.
35 Now this I am saying for your own expedience, not that I should be casting a noose over you, but for that which is respectable and assiduous -- to be undistractedly for the Lord.
36 Now if anyone is inferring it to be indecent for his virgin, if she should be over her meridian, and thus it ought to occur, what he will, let him do. He is not sinning. Let them marry.
37 Yet he who stands settled in his heart, having no necessity, yet has authority as to his own will, and has decided this in his own heart (to be keeping his virgin) ideally will be doing.
38 So that he also who is taking his virgin in marriage, ideally will be doing, yet he who is not taking out in marriage will be doing better.
39 A wife is bound by law for whatever time her husband is living. Yet if the husband should be reposing, she is free to be married to whom she will, only in the Lord.
40 Yet happier is she if ever she should be remaining thus, according to my opinion. Now I presume that I also have God's spirit." (1 Corinthians 7:1-40)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2013, 03:49:10 AM
Well, we got back around to marriage :). I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV or even local theatre. All the following information is a layman's opinion and should not be considered legal advice. :)
I agree with whatever else it is or isn't, it's Quote from: Tom on September 14, 2013, 02:34:59 AM
a commitment to God and each other
Maybe the Lutheran preacher was too strict one direction, when maybe he could have talked with them, encouraged to confess any sin if it were present, restore them, then perform the ceremony. Being humans still in flesh though, I also believe we can assume license to sin the other direction too, by not really being serious and scriptural about it.
As I've said before, even if not done "legally" for whatever reason [although any truly pertinent laws of the land should be fully considered], I personally very much prefer some type of comittment "cermony"/promise/observance, even if those 2 people were on a deserted island and it was "only" between them and God. Because I believe the other side of it, which could be spiritually dangerous is, if someone "plays games with it" by not really making a holy, spiritual, honest comittment before God. So in essence are really just "shacking up" - maybe even going from one "wife" to another with little regard to "I truly take you as my wife, I give myself to you for life [considering all related scriptural issues re: adultary, perhaps abandonment, etc.] forsaking all others, cleaving only to you", etc. Again, with all the scriptural things that apply. God knows what's truly in our heart, and we can't fool Him. :2c:
Absolutely Jabcat! :iagree: I've seen lives ruined from couples deciding to "shack up" and not really take their relationship seriously. A friend of mine a couple years older than me is living with his girlfriend now, and I pray that they are both taking the commitment seriously, and another friend of mine and his girlfriend are trying to do that next year. From a college student's perspective, it makes sense as a way to cut costs, but if it doesn't work out, there could be far more serious consequences. And from my friend's perspective, the pastor wanted to still do the ceremony but was just reluctant because he was worried about receiving backlash from his higher ups if they found out.
And if I made it sound like I'm completely against marriage ceremonies, I'm not. I personally think they're joyous occasions and a lot of fun to attend (especially when I get out on the dance floor :banana:). Plus it is nice to have family and friends there to celebrate with you. But I just don't believe it's not official in God's eyes until the ceremony is actually completed. I believe the legal benefits are a good incentive too.
Check out the attachment for some interesting information about the building of woman.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Iwould love to read that Tom, but Iclicked onit anddidn't get it. Is getting an
attachment different than alink? TY
Quote from: sheila on September 15, 2013, 03:33:18 AM
Iwould love to read that Tom, but Iclicked onit anddidn't get it. Is getting an
attachment different than alink? TY
When you click on it, it should download to your computer. It automatically downloads with the Chrome browser, and Explorer gives you a pop up at the bottom of your screen asking you if you want to download or open it. It is a PDF file. So you will need Adobe Reader which is free to download here. http://www.adobe.com/products/reader.html
Quote from: sheila on September 15, 2013, 03:33:18 AM
Iwould love to read that Tom, but Iclicked onit anddidn't get it. Is getting an
attachment different than alink? TY
Let me know if you can't get it Sheila. I'll copy and paste the text for you.
Quote from: sheila on September 15, 2013, 03:33:18 AM
Iwould love to read that Tom, but Iclicked onit anddidn't get it. Is getting an
attachment different than alink? TY
This is kind of long, but here's the text from the PDF file.
"UR_V11P2 pages 271-274
THE BUILDING OF WOMAN
ONE of the stories which have excited the ridicule of the critics of the
Bible is the account of the creation of woman. If a rib was taken out of
man to form a woman, why, we are asked, is not one still missing?
Foolish as such an objection seems on the surface (for the loss of more
important members of the body are not transmitted by generation) it
challenges us to a look into the scripture more carefully. It is difficult to
see any particular reason why a rib should be chosen for this purpose.
Was it really a rib, or may the word be understood of some other part of
Adam's body!
The Hebrew word here rendered "rib," though it occurs over forty
times, is nowhere else so translated. It is not the Hebrew equivalent of
the Chaldee galag (Dan.7:5), the only other word which may be rendered
"rib."
Our translators have sometimes given it as side or side chamber, as
well as corner, board, plank, leaves, halting. Many of these, it must be
conceded, have some semblance to a rib.
The word is almost always used in connection with the temple or the
tabernacle. A knowledge of the structure of these buildings will help us
to discover its true meaning.
Ezekiel describes the millennial temple as having side chambers in
the walls (Ezek.41:5-26). Their size, and how they increase in width as
the walls of the building decreased, their number and how they were
connected—all these architectural details leave us in no doubt that the
word here means a cell, or vault, an enclosed space.
When we transfer this meaning to the tabernacle structure, it seems to
fail utterly. But this is because the tabernacle walls themselves are not
correctly described.
Of the four Hebrew words translated board, one is used exclusively
of the "boards" of the tabernacle except a single occurrence, where it is
rendered "benches" (Ezek.27:6). It is not at all likely, however, that
benches were made of ivory. Rather the prow of the ship was made of
this precious substance. The word has the meaning of a taper, and the
"boards" of the tabernacle were in shape like an inverted V. Every detail
of measurement and design confirms this fact. The walls of the
tabernacle were hollow.
Coming back to the Hebrew word tzehlag, which is here found to
mean a cell or vault, we now have no difficulty in applying it to the
"sides" of the tabernacle, for these enclosed a tapered vault. The bars
which ran through from end to end were inside of this tapered vault, as
well as the rings through which they passed.
These two examples are sufficient to establish the basic signification
of the word. It is a hollow cell. There is no reason for calling it a rib,
unless we slavishly follow the Septuagint, which is not consistent in its
renderings.
Having arrived at the conclusion that it was not a rib, but a cell of
some kind it behooves us to inquire from the Scriptures themselves what
its nature was and also to seek corroboration for our position in the facts
found in our physical frames. We need not fear any disagreement
between Scriptural truth and physical fact. They must and do agree. If
they do not we are wrong. If they coincide in our interpretation of their
testimony we are probably in possession of the truth.
It is a notable fact which is usually overlooked that humanity was
created male and female (Gen.1:27). The sexes were combined in one
individual. Adam was first formed, then Eve. There was an interval
between the creation of the man and the building of the woman. After the
creation of Adam God planted a garden eastward in Eden. He put the
man in the garden to dress it and keep it. He commanded the man as to
what he was and was not to eat, and He brought every animal of the field
to Adam, who gave them their names.
Let us press the fact, which is repeated in the fifth chapter that "In the
day that God created man...male and female created He them...and called
their name Adam in the day when they were created." It is evident that
the Scriptures are true in a much stricter sense than many suppose, that
the woman was taken out of man. Nothing new was created when the
woman was built. The man permanently lost part of his structure which
God removed when He created his helpmeet. In other words, the sexes
were separated and Adam retained only masculine functions and Eve
was builded from the feminine. And do not the facts of the physical
world perfectly confirm this interpretation? How could the removal of a
rib change Adam from an hermaphrodite to the exclusively masculine
structure of his descendants? Such a combination of the sexes is true
today of most plants and some worms and mollusks.
It seems most reasonable then, to believe, on the evidence of
Scripture as well as nature, that woman was not a separate creation from
man, but was built from that part of his original structure which he now
lacks.
This is fraught with much beautiful material for reflection. Man, once
complete in himself, is now but a part of his original self. The primal
perfection can only be attained by the union of the two. They are in very
deed one flesh. The One who severed them from one another in that deep
sleep which fell upon Adam is the One who yokes them together in holy
wedlock. And is not this the key to our Lord's discourse against divorce?
He is very emphatic. "From the beginning of creation He makes them
male and female." This can refer only to the time when both were
included in the one human being Adam. Hence, "On this account a man
will be leaving his father and mother and will be joined to his wife, and
the two will be for one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one
flesh. Then that which God yokes together let no man be severing."
And here, indeed, we have the divine illustration of our union with
Christ. Though it seems beyond belief, He is incomplete without us. We
were chosen in Him before the disruption and now we become one with
Him in redemption. Here there is no divorce possible. The ecclesia is His
complement or fullness. It takes both to make a perfect body for the
Christ. The transcendent nature of this grace can only be absorbed by
mature meditation. May we have grace to enjoy it fully!"
WW and the rest of you who are especially interested in the Hebrew culture should appreciate this information. I'm posting it in this thread about desire, love, and marriage because it refers to Yahweh's overwhelming love for his chosen people and the ultimate marriage ceremony.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling049.htm
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Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2013, 03:49:10 AM
Well, we got back around to marriage :). I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV or even local theatre. All the following information is a layman's opinion and should not be considered legal advice. :)
I agree with whatever else it is or isn't, it's Quote from: Tom on September 14, 2013, 02:34:59 AM
a commitment to God and each other
Maybe the Lutheran preacher was too strict one direction, when maybe he could have talked with them, encouraged to confess any sin if it were present, restore them, then perform the ceremony. Being humans still in flesh though, I also believe we can assume license to sin the other direction too, by not really being serious and scriptural about it.
As I've said before, even if not done "legally" for whatever reason [although any truly pertinent laws of the land should be fully considered], I personally very much prefer some type of comittment "cermony"/promise/observance, even if those 2 people were on a deserted island and it was "only" between them and God. Because I believe the other side of it, which could be spiritually dangerous is, if someone "plays games with it" by not really making a holy, spiritual, honest comittment before God. So in essence are really just "shacking up" - maybe even going from one "wife" to another with little regard to "I truly take you as my wife, I give myself to you for life [considering all related scriptural issues re: adultary, perhaps abandonment, etc.] forsaking all others, cleaving only to you", etc. Again, with all the scriptural things that apply. God knows what's truly in our heart, and we can't fool Him. :2c:
:thumbsup: There is certainly a
psychological benefit in marking the occasion with ceremony, celebration, spoken vows, and other harmless traditions.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2013, 05:19:46 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 13, 2013, 04:01:30 AM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 03:01:32 AM
Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?
YES.
:Chinscratch:
Sex with a woman married to another man is strictly forbidden. Sex with unmarried women is not.
Jacob had 4. http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/sons-of-jacob/msg137879/#msg137879
Solomon had 300 women.
In this verse sex often equals marriage:
Exodus 22:16-17
"If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins.
Solomon and his wife Abishag/Shunammite didn't want a long betrothal period and suggested immediate consummation to seal the marriage.
:2c:
I think it's a bit vague to simply state that the scriptures do not forbit a man to have "sex with unmarried women."
I want to emphasize the part of Exodus 22.16 that instructs the man to "make her his wife." I believe it is certainly sin for an unmarried man to have sex with an unmarried woman, and then just move on to the next one.
I notice some of you seem to believe that it's not a sin to fantasize about having sex with another person of the opposite sex, regardless of marital status.
IMO, to carry it to the level of fantasizing IS the lust Jesus was talking about in the OP.
Would not fantasizing be equal to a strong, desiring type of lust that indicates a willingness to carry out the fantasy - thus sin?
Am I reading this right? :dontknow:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 16, 2013, 06:56:56 PM
:thumbsup: There is certainly a psychological benefit in marking the occasion with ceremony, celebration, spoken vows, and other harmless traditions.
Sure they are harmless but I
think not the way you mean.
Jesus, in fact huge parts of the Bible follow those traditions and vows.
Few things to back up that claim....
The wedding contract was worked out during a meal and written by a Scribe/Rabbi.
The contract consisted of 5 main parts.
1. Family history of both bride and groom containing a detailed family tree and anecdotes.
a. Genesis.
2. Personal family history of the bride. Again with a detailed family tree and anecdotes.
a. Exodus. Israel is God's bride.
3. Personal family history of the groom. Again with a detailed family tree and anecdotes.
a. Leviticus. God's family
4. A story filled with anecdotes how the couple met.
a. Numbers. The love affair, joy and sorrow about of God and Israel in the wilderness.
5. Details about responsibilities of both groom and bride before and after the wedding. Payment, rights, etc.
a. Deuteronomy lists all that's expected from God and Israel.
The contact was signed (=sealed) 7 times.
1. Bride - David, God's beloved.
2. Groom – Jesus.
3. Father of the bride – Jacob (Israel)
4. Father of the groom – Abraham (father of nations)
5. Scribe – Moses wrote the 5 "Ketubah books"
6. Two witnesses. Adam and Noah.
:2c:
Back to the OP:
When desire grows to the point where it becomes a willingness to do a sinful act, is that when it becomes the sin of lust Jesus was talking about?
Quoting myself from another thread:
In the ancient Jewish mind was not believing what we find in a dictionary.
Believing is 'our' definition plus actually doing it.
Believing and following the law of the was required.
When the law wasn't followed from the heart but because of regulations it was already broken.
In relation to your question I think the answer is yes.
Maybe not the act of adultery itself but by having such thoughts 'rejecting' the law.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 16, 2013, 07:13:47 PM
Would not fantasizing be equal to a strong, desiring type of lust ?
I believe so. The definition of lust I'm familiar with is, "strong, intense desire".
Ihave been reminded of Job....who made a 'covenant with his eyes' to not even look at
another woman.
if you do unto other's as ye would have them do unto you....you realize that jealousy
and feeling undesired or un-appreciated or lacking in some area. in comparison to another.is
hurtful. Wisdom scriptures in Proverbs ch 5 invites her sons to pay attention;
drink water from your owncistern[if you keep looking about with adulterous eyes at other
women, your wife may start looking about too]
......Prvrbs 6;25 do not lust in your heart after her beauty,orlet her captivate you
with her eyes[eyes...desire of...covet]
can a man scoop fire in his lap andnot be burned?
Prvrbs 7;7Isaw amongthesimple,I noticed amongthe young men,a youth wholacked
judgement.
God told Israel He would notpunish the adulterous wife due to the men of Israel
themselves consorting with temple prostitutes. they had hypocritically expected
a differnt standard for the women..then themselves.
when you are looking about,remember sometimes just one glance is all it takes
SOS 4;9 You have stolen my heart,my sister,my bride; you have stolen my heart
with one glance of your eyes,with onejewel of your necklace