If UR is correct, what is the fate of the unbeliever upon death?

[eaglesway]

Jock this was in response to your question about outer darkness.

Matthew 22

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


Outer darkness is not being at the wedding party. The wedding party will be grand and those not welcome to it will be very sad. Sad people gnash their teeth and wail.  :banana:

beautimous :o)

[Jock]

Thanks Eaglesway. I reckon those that are at the feast are the ones who WANT to be there. They have accepted the invitation.

[mplsfitter539]

Jock not only do they want to be at the wedding party they also are wearing their wedding garments. Everyone will want to be there but most will not be wearing the proper wedding garments. This is where ET believes that if you are not invited to the wedding party then you go to hell. UR says that no one goes to a fake place that does not exist but not all will be at the wedding party.

[jbertonbounds]

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Outer darkness is not being at the wedding party. The wedding party will be grand and those not welcome to it will be very sad. Sad people gnash their teeth and wail. 

Right on, fitter.  I have for some time believed that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" described deep sorrow, not the reaction of someone being burned by fire (as taught by ET's - that would be screaming and thrashing about).

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Outer darkness is not being at the wedding party. The wedding party will be grand and those not welcome to it will be very sad. Sad people gnash their teeth and wail. 

Excellent point!
:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Some are already enjoying the wedding party.

Some are already weeping and gnashing their teeth.

:o)

[jbertonbounds]

Some are already enjoying the wedding party.

Some are already weeping and gnashing their teeth.

:o)

How do you mean?

[Jock]

Many are called but few are chosen? I don't get it.  :dontknow:

Jock

[mplsfitter539]

Jock,

Many could mean more like all are called but few are chosen. Like Martin Zender says everyone gets tickets to the rock concert but only a few get back stage passes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnzRBj9_Yc :banana:

[jbertonbounds]

Jock,

Many could mean more like all are called but few are chosen. Like Martin Zender says everyone gets tickets to the rock concert but only a few get back stage passes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnzRBj9_Yc :banana:

:iagree:

[Jock]

Sounds right to me.

[eaglesway]

Some are already enjoying the wedding party.

Some are already weeping and gnashing their teeth.

:o)

How do you mean?

the wedding party has begun. It is the union of the Bride and the Lamb. The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come".  Jesus said, "Ther will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see the Gentiles in the kingdom and you yourselves shut out"...or something close to that. When the Spirit in us says "Come" we are at the feast inviting others......GATHERING. When we hear a voice, "The Bridegroom Comes!"- we run out into the night(hopefully with extra oil gathered in the day) to FIND HIM -prophetically, "That where I AM there you may be also", This I pray, that you may BE ONE(united, gathered in Him) that YOUR JOY MAY BE FULL."

Whenever two or more of you gather i my name, THER I AM(dwelling/tabernacling) IN YOUR MIDST.

Of course, the consummation of the wedding feast will be at the first resurrection gathering at the end of this age, but it will only be for those WHO WErE GATHERED ALREADY, who HEARD THE CALL AND WENT OUT, leaving there quiet rest and sleep behind to BE WHERE HE IS and to celebrate THE MARRIAGE-

AWAKE O SLEEPER, ARISE FROM THE DEAD and THE LIGHT OF CHRIST WILL SHINE ON YOU

Lord remove my veil, Kiss me with the kisses of your lips.

My beloved came for me(behold I stand at the door and knock), I heard his hand upon the door knob(if any man hear me and open up the door), but I said- my feet are clean, i do not want rise from my comfortable bed, (not counting all as loss). Then He LEFT- and I rose up in haste and I went out and I cried, "HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BELOVED", but He was nowhere to be found. I asked the watchmen and they mocked me. I asked the shepherds and they misled me, "HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BELOVED"- I wept, until He came to me. (weeping opens the door, a broken and a contrite heart I will ot cast out)

What will we do if our little sister has no breasts?(immaturity) "Call to the wind, COME O NORTH WIND(sufferring, trial)"


Son 8:8-14  "We have a little sister, And she has no breasts; What shall we do for our sister On the day when she is spoken for?  "If she is a wall, We will build on her a battlement of silver; But if she is a door, We will barricade her with planks of cedar."  "I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; Then I became in his eyes as one who finds peace.  "Solomon had a vineyard at Baal-hamon; He entrusted the vineyard to caretakers. Each one was to bring a thousand shekels of silver for its fruit.   "My very own vineyard is at my disposal; The thousand shekels are for you, Solomon, And two hundred are for those who take care of its fruit."   "O you who sit in the gardens, My companions are listening for your voice-- Let me hear it!"  (14)  "Hurry, my beloved, And be like a gazelle or a young stag On the mountains of spices."

Isa 27:1-9  In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea(Let there be light).  In that day, "A vineyard of wine, sing of it!   "I, the LORD, am its keeper; I water it every moment. So that no one will damage it, I guard it night and day. 

"I have no wrath(ministry of reconciliation/gathering/wedding feast). Should someone give Me briars and thorns in battle, Then I would step on them, I would burn them completely(ministry of condemnation/separating/shut outside).  "Or let him rely on My protection, Let him make peace with Me, Let him make peace with Me."(repenting of the hardness of our hearts/yielding/brokenness)   In the days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will blossom and sprout, And they will fill the whole world with fruit.(Psalm 51, James 3:15-17) Like the striking of Him who has struck them, has He struck them? Or like the slaughter of His slain, have they been slain?  You contended with them by banishing them, by driving them away(therefore they weep and gnash their teeth). With His fierce wind He has expelled them on the day of the east wind(thoroughly purging the threshing floor). Therefore through this Jacob's iniquity will be forgiven; And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin: When he makes all the altar stones like pulverized chalk stones; When Asherim and incense altars will not stand(no more idolizing the works of his own hands and his appetites.

The wicked man hates the righteous and gnashes his teeth on him, but the righteous does not resist him.

[Molly]

Jock,

Many could mean more like all are called but few are chosen. Like Martin Zender says everyone gets tickets to the rock concert but only a few get back stage passes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnzRBj9_Yc :banana:

Love those 3 verses:


10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.  [Gal 6:10]



10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  [1Tim 4:10]



20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. [Col 1:20}



After that, Zender's theology becomes a bit of a mishmash.  But, fun!   :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Srr5KetBCI

[jbertonbounds]

Some are already enjoying the wedding party.

Some are already weeping and gnashing their teeth.

:o)

How do you mean?

the wedding party has begun. It is the union of the Bride and the Lamb. The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come".  Jesus said, "Ther will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see the Gentiles in the kingdom and you yourselves shut out"...or something close to that. When the Spirit in us says "Come" we are at the feast inviting others......GATHERING. When we hear a voice, "The Bridegroom Comes!"- we run out into the night(hopefully with extra oil gathered in the day) to FIND HIM -prophetically, "That where I AM there you may be also", This I pray, that you may BE ONE(united, gathered in Him) that YOUR JOY MAY BE FULL."

Whenever two or more of you gather i my name, THER I AM(dwelling/tabernacling) IN YOUR MIDST.

Of course, the consummation of the wedding feast will be at the first resurrection gathering at the end of this age, but it will only be for those WHO WErE GATHERED ALREADY, who HEARD THE CALL AND WENT OUT, leaving there quiet rest and sleep behind to BE WHERE HE IS and to celebrate THE MARRIAGE-

AWAKE O SLEEPER, ARISE FROM THE DEAD and THE LIGHT OF CHRIST WILL SHINE ON YOU

Lord remove my veil, Kiss me with the kisses of your lips.

My beloved came for me(behold I stand at the door and knock), I heard his hand upon the door knob(if any man hear me and open up the door), but I said- my feet are clean, i do not want rise from my comfortable bed, (not counting all as loss). Then He LEFT- and I rose up in haste and I went out and I cried, "HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BELOVED", but He was nowhere to be found. I asked the watchmen and they mocked me. I asked the shepherds and they misled me, "HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BELOVED"- I wept, until He came to me. (weeping opens the door, a broken and a contrite heart I will ot cast out)

What will we do if our little sister has no breasts?(immaturity) "Call to the wind, COME O NORTH WIND(sufferring, trial)"


Son 8:8-14  "We have a little sister, And she has no breasts; What shall we do for our sister On the day when she is spoken for?  "If she is a wall, We will build on her a battlement of silver; But if she is a door, We will barricade her with planks of cedar."  "I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; Then I became in his eyes as one who finds peace.  "Solomon had a vineyard at Baal-hamon; He entrusted the vineyard to caretakers. Each one was to bring a thousand shekels of silver for its fruit.   "My very own vineyard is at my disposal; The thousand shekels are for you, Solomon, And two hundred are for those who take care of its fruit."   "O you who sit in the gardens, My companions are listening for your voice-- Let me hear it!"  (14)  "Hurry, my beloved, And be like a gazelle or a young stag On the mountains of spices."

Isa 27:1-9  In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea(Let there be light).  In that day, "A vineyard of wine, sing of it!   "I, the LORD, am its keeper; I water it every moment. So that no one will damage it, I guard it night and day. 

"I have no wrath(ministry of reconciliation/gathering/wedding feast). Should someone give Me briars and thorns in battle, Then I would step on them, I would burn them completely(ministry of condemnation/separating/shut outside).  "Or let him rely on My protection, Let him make peace with Me, Let him make peace with Me."(repenting of the hardness of our hearts/yielding/brokenness)   In the days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will blossom and sprout, And they will fill the whole world with fruit.(Psalm 51, James 3:15-17) Like the striking of Him who has struck them, has He struck them? Or like the slaughter of His slain, have they been slain?  You contended with them by banishing them, by driving them away(therefore they weep and gnash their teeth). With His fierce wind He has expelled them on the day of the east wind(thoroughly purging the threshing floor). Therefore through this Jacob's iniquity will be forgiven; And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin: When he makes all the altar stones like pulverized chalk stones; When Asherim and incense altars will not stand(no more idolizing the works of his own hands and his appetites.

The wicked man hates the righteous and gnashes his teeth on him, but the righteous does not resist him.

Thank you.
This is beautiful.
These passages mean so much more when we see the light of the symbology in them.
Literalists only see the Song of Solomon as a love story of Solomon and his lover.
They only see the history books of the bible as simply historical information.
They only see the Law books as obsolete rules.
They only see the Revelation as an agenda, a program of scheduled events.
They only see heaven versus hell.

Let he who has an ear hear, and he who has eyes see.
May God bless you all with hearing ears and seeing eyes.
Let there be light! :dsunny:

[jbertonbounds]

Eph 5:31    Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
Eph 5:32    This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

I never saw this before until this morning. WOW. Too often people overlook this in their teachings, and only teach that it pertains to human marriage, without bringing out what Paul is saying here (in bold). The Christ and his ekklesia will become one flesh - His flesh! This is huge! :banana:

[eaglesway]

It is, in my opinion, the OVERRIDING purpose of God in this age.


"And the Spirit and the Bride say COME, let everyone who thirst drink freely of the water of life."

"You have not come unto a mountain that cannot be touched, burning with fire.......but you have come to Zion, and the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect and unto the general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven and unto the blood that speaks better than able."


In the "administration working out through the completion of the times", the ages- God is working in this age to complete the mother of all who will be born of Him in the future- the Bride, the Body, the First fruits from among His creatures. She is gestating sons, who will be caught up to His throne and share in the ministry of reconciliation through out the ages to come.

"Our mother is Jerusalem from above, who is free"

"And I saw the holy city coming down from out of heaven like a Bride adorned for the Bridegroom in white linen, the righteous acts of the saints"

Jesus said, "I am the true bread that comes down out of heaven"

For something to "come down out of heaven" means for something that has been hidden and forming in the heavenly realms to manifest openly among men on the earth......"THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN"

WHat is happening is that all that is in heaven(the presence, power, love of God) is pouring through the tear in the veil that divides heaven and earth- that tear initiated in the body of our Lord and being completed in those who are as Paul put it, "filling up in their bodies the sufferings of Christ"

Rom 12:1-5  Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.   And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.  For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.   For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

[sheila]

Liked that!      Indeed,of Zion[Jerusalem Above] it will be said...'This one and that one were born in her....

   AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL ESTABLISH HER.   To me, this  is a fulfillment of bringing in all the fruit....

so that a blessing is poured out until their is no more want..the floodgates of the Heavens being opened........


     and this is all the fruit...when I take away all their sins.........Jesus Christ..takes away all the sins of the people....

              so there may be bread in His house..communion with God,and His house be a house of prayer for all men....

    No more a den of theives and robbers...that would seperate us from God, our inheritance..or rob God of His inheritance

   His people-mankind..of whom He created for His spirit to dwell in.

   Jesus Christ...as a sign spoken against....of the goodness of God Psalms 86;17

          the Lord will write in the register of the peoples[book of life] this one was born in Zion"    as they make music

they will sing........'ALL MY FOUNTAINS ARE IN YOU"

     I,Jesus haave sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches, 'I am the root and the offspring of David"

   [stump of Jesse/sprout]  and the bright morning star.

   The spirit and the bride say come! And let who hears say ,Come!!  Whoever is thirsty let him come!! and

whoever wishes,let him take the free gift of the water of life.

         

[Molly]

Eph 5:31    Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
Eph 5:32    This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

I never saw this before until this morning. WOW. Too often people overlook this in their teachings, and only teach that it pertains to human marriage, without bringing out what Paul is saying here (in bold). The Christ and his ekklesia will become one flesh - His flesh! This is huge! :banana:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:banana: :banana:


For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

--Eph 5:30

[eaglesway]

Liked that!      Indeed,of Zion[Jerusalem Above] it will be said...'This one and that one were born in her....

   AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL ESTABLISH HER.   To me, this  is a fulfillment of bringing in all the fruit....

so that a blessing is poured out until their is no more want..the floodgates of the Heavens being opened........


     and this is all the fruit...when I take away all their sins.........Jesus Christ..takes away all the sins of the people....

              so there may be bread in His house..communion with God,and His house be a house of prayer for all men....

    No more a den of theives and robbers...that would seperate us from God, our inheritance..or rob God of His inheritance

   His people-mankind..of whom He created for His spirit to dwell in.

   Jesus Christ...as a sign spoken against....of the goodness of God Psalms 86;17

          the Lord will write in the register of the peoples[book of life] this one was born in Zion"    as they make music

they will sing........'ALL MY FOUNTAINS ARE IN YOU"

     I,Jesus haave sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches, 'I am the root and the offspring of David"

   [stump of Jesse/sprout]  and the bright morning star.

   The spirit and the bride say come! And let who hears say ,Come!!  Whoever is thirsty let him come!! and

whoever wishes,let him take the free gift of the water of life.

         

Yes, Yes -a thousand times, Yes~

[jbertonbounds]

Liked that!      Indeed,of Zion[Jerusalem Above] it will be said...'This one and that one were born in her....

   AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL ESTABLISH HER.   To me, this  is a fulfillment of bringing in all the fruit....

so that a blessing is poured out until their is no more want..the floodgates of the Heavens being opened........


     and this is all the fruit...when I take away all their sins.........Jesus Christ..takes away all the sins of the people....

              so there may be bread in His house..communion with God,and His house be a house of prayer for all men....

    No more a den of theives and robbers...that would seperate us from God, our inheritance..or rob God of His inheritance

   His people-mankind..of whom He created for His spirit to dwell in.

   Jesus Christ...as a sign spoken against....of the goodness of God Psalms 86;17

          the Lord will write in the register of the peoples[book of life] this one was born in Zion"    as they make music

they will sing........'ALL MY FOUNTAINS ARE IN YOU"

     I,Jesus haave sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches, 'I am the root and the offspring of David"

   [stump of Jesse/sprout]  and the bright morning star.

   The spirit and the bride say come! And let who hears say ,Come!!  Whoever is thirsty let him come!! and

whoever wishes,let him take the free gift of the water of life.

         

WOW!

[Ken]

Hello Eaglesway,

The answer to your question can be found in this article. Be sure and read all of the hyperlinked articles, too:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Thanks for the good question.

Ken

(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)

[shawn]

The way I understand Jesus' teaching about this is in comparison to his teachings about Gehenna.  I'm not convinced (while I acknowledge it could be) that Jesus is talking about the afterlife at all.  I believe weeping=depression, gnashing of teeth=anxiety.  Isn't that what awaits anyone who is dying outside the city gates...where the worm dieth not?  Those of us wearing our wedding garment (faith in Christ) are part of the party, inside the gates.

[eaglesway]

Yea Shawn, altho I think it is both most likely, i have no problem with the idea you present for surely I have wept and gashed my teeth and wrestled with the undying worm as the flames of light peeled back the veils of darkness that covered the secrets of my heart.......... "Nothing is hidden that shall not be brought to the light"....... "Every person will be salted with fire and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt" ......"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword dividing asunder soul and spirit and making manifest the thoughts and motivations of the heart, For all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"..... "And His eyes were as flames of fire and out of His mouth came a sharp two edged sword "

:o)

[shawn]

Yea Shawn, altho I think it is both most likely, i have no problem with the idea you present for surely I have wept and gashed my teeth and wrestled with the undying worm as the flames of light peeled back the veils of darkness that covered the secrets of my heart.......... "Nothing is hidden that shall not be brought to the light"....... "Every person will be salted with fire and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt" ......"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword dividing asunder soul and spirit and making manifest the thoughts and motivations of the heart, For all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"..... "And His eyes were as flames of fire and out of His mouth came a sharp two edged sword "

:o)

And you very well could be correct.  I tend to see certain things which relate to the here and now.  I have a hard time picturing life beyond this age.  That's why I love reading the posts of many of my brothers and sisters here, as many see things I can't (at least yet).

[eaglesway]

wheels within wheels with eyes all around, and the spirit of the creatures was in the whirling wheels and they went wherever they would go like lightning, without turning as they went.

Sounds like a gyroscope to me. Balance from the multitude of counselors. All eyes looking out in different directions but all connected at the heart.

And the were all as one soul, and great grace was upon them all, and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied, and the Lord added daily to their number such as should be saved.

[Tom]

Again, everybody I am new here, and am trying to figure out where I stand on the issue of UR. Many of the articles I have read on this website I have found to be well thought out and provoking (in a good way). A few questions I would like to throw out there too see what everybody's thoughts/beliefs are.

1. What is the fate of the unbeliever after death?

2. What is your thought on the belief of the "age of accountability"?

3. Lastly what is your take on these NDE's where people say that Jesus showed them Hell? Particularly those that have shown up recently on various websites that have not published their accounts? I am trying to put them behind me, however they keep resurfacing in my mind.

Here is a good link with information to answer your first two questions.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/JudgmentAndDeath.html

Regarding your third question, my experience was nothing like the mythical hell of church doctrine. I left my body and looked down at myself in the hospital bed. Then I perceived myself falling or rushing through darkness until it was suddenly overcome by very bright light with a sense of total peace and unconditional love that was conveyed telepathically.

My opinion is that some folks misinterpret what they experience. I recently saw a video of a lady who decided to believe in reincarnation as a result of her NDE. I think her encounter with other life forms could better be explained as the realization that we are all one in the sense of having spirit in common. I also think our preconceived ideas due to religious training about the afterlife and the spirit world can affect an OBE/NDE. 

Mystical experiences are profound, but I think we need to use caution about how we interpret them. The one thing that seems to be common to most is the realization of the importance of love in life. I think anybody who has had one has to be changed for life. But it's not necessary to have one to know that God is love because scripture tells us that. Christ's message was always about love.

Even the fate of unbelievers after death that you asked about is dealt with by a loving God who has no intention of torturing people forever in fire. They will simply be dead, unconscious of anything, until they are eventually immortalized at the consummation of the eons, and that is only because they were not given faith for eonian life. We may not always understand God's ways, but ultimately everything is a display of God's love for all his creatures. That's why scripture says God is love, all will be reconciled, and God will be all in all.