If UR is correct, what is the fate of the unbeliever upon death?

[jbavry]

Again, everybody I am new here, and am trying to figure out where I stand on the issue of UR. Many of the articles I have read on this website I have found to be well thought out and provoking (in a good way). A few questions I would like to throw out there too see what everybody's thoughts/beliefs are.

1. What is the fate of the unbeliever after death?

2. What is your thought on the belief of the "age of accountability"?

3. Lastly what is your take on these NDE's where people say that Jesus showed them Hell? Particularly those that have shown up recently on various websites that have not published their accounts? I am trying to put them behind me, however they keep resurfacing in my mind.

[eaglesway]

There are several different views about what happens at a believers death- among UR believers as with others. My personal opinion is that everyone awakens at the judgment throne of Christ. Overcomers at the first resurrection. Everyone else at the second resurrection/Great White Throne judgment. As to whether they sleep or cease to exist inbetween as time passes- I do not want to get into my opinion on that- it always engenders an unnecessary debate over something that is not all that clear in the first place.

As to the age of accountability, I think it varies, depending on many factors such as the environment in which a child is raised, the rate at which a person matures. IMO by adolescence (13-17) most people are accountable to God for their attitudes and actions.

On this web-site, we all agree that the consummation of God's plan is the reconciliation and restoration of all. We have some lively disagreements on some other aspects of theology :o)

[lomarah]

I haven't been shown a whole lot regarding what happens at death but I do know that believers and unbelievers alike will be freed from sin. (How this whole process will pan out is yet to be seen for me but I don't need to know because I know my Father well enough to know that I have nothing to fear... for myself or for my loved ones.)

The age of accountability is based off of the false belief of "hell". That believers go to "heaven" and unbelievers go to "hell" and that those who are not old enough to "choose God" will automatically be sent to "heaven". However we know that God chose us and He is the Father of spirits. And that even as in Adam all die so shall in Christ shall all be made alive.

As for crazy hellish experiences, have you ever had a nightmare? They can seem quite real can't they? Rather than the reality of what happens after death these are showing the reality of the person's soul. There are many many nde's that completely blow these hellish experience (and the christians take of "heaven and hell") right out of the water. ("Pagans" who see Jesus and have a wonderful experience, "unbelievers" walking around in peaceful serenity, etc.) What helped me overcome all of these questions was going back to my own experiences with God and reconnecting with Him like I did when I first turned to Him years ago. Once all of the lies about our Abba are beginning to shatter it makes it much easier to go to Him and have Him reveal Himself to us directly.  :HeartThrob:

Huge blessings to you as you continue in your quest for truth!

[marie glen]

hi! When I discovered or realized that the first advent of Jesus was prophesied (and fulfilled by) ancient Israel's Spring Holy Days, it seemed like the next step in logic was that Autumn Holy Days prophesied (and will be fulfilled by) His long second advent. It would seem logical that the three Holy Days would coincide with three major peaks of this second advent, from Jesus' return to when the very Throne of Father Almighty comes to the earth. [Of course all this would also depend upon confirmation by His Spirit and also in His Word.]

The three peaks i would think, would be - (#1)His return - (#2)what is commonly called Judgment Day - and (#3)God's Throne now upon Earth, and God will now "tabernacle" with man..

The Fall Holy Days are (#1)Trumpets - (#2)Day of Atonement (biggest Holy Day to Israel?) - and (#3)Tabernacles. There are 10 days between (#1)Trumpets and (#2)Atonement, and there are 5 days between Atonement and (#3)Tabernacles.

In this line of reasoning, "Trumpets" isn't difficult for we know there are seven trumps and He returns with a trumpet blast (& fire) and with angels which He sends out to gather His elect from the four corners (directions) of the world (Mt 24:29-31).

Next, we know, for we are told (Rev 20:1-6) that there is a 1000 year kingdom of Christ upon Earth.

And the next peak of Jesus' second advent surely would be the 2nd resurrection and the Great White Throne Judgment ('day'), which resurrection of course is of all those who have not (yet) believed and been joined to Jesus.

{Now really, there is only one verse which could seem to suggest that one MUST believe before death, this being when Jesus told the Pharisees unless they repented, they would "die in their sins". But! Surely to be resurrected "in your sins" cannot be as joyful and glorious an experience as to be resurrected (or lifted away) at His (glorious:) return.}

Now, I hate to sound totally ridiculous, but it seems to me iF, there are 10 days between Holy Days (#1) and (#2) and 1000 years between (#1) and (#2)advent peaks, then perhaps the 3rd advent peak would coincide with the "5 days" between (#2)Atonement and (#3)Tabernacles, as 500 years between peaks (#2) and (#3).. And surely the 3rd peak is when God comes to the planet, makes "all things new", "wipes all tears" and there is now "no more death" etc, and coincides with "Tabernacles". The peak of all peaks! :dsunny:

I'm assuming it's at the end of peak (#2) which includes, or is(?) Judgment Day, "the Great White Throne Judgment" (Rev 20;11-14) - i'm assuming it's at the end of this 'day' when "those not written in the Book of Life will go to the Lake of Fire". What does it require to be written in the Book of Life? (To be ALIVE?) Isn't it to "believe"...? How many, after having experienced being resurrected from their grave, and having lived through and witnessed an intense day of the judgment and review of all things.. all human history, etc. Who after all that isn't going to "believe"?

The age of accountability, I've never yet seen in the Bible.. so :dontknow: i leave that up to God..

The 'hell' visions? :eyebrow: :Chinscratch: I guess I don't know.. I simply don't believe them.. sometimes I've wondered if 'ghosts' might not be dreaming dead.. sort of sleepwalking? as they do seem by all accounts to be rather out of it.. But mostly I think visions of hell (and ghosts) are 'phantoms' :laughing7: of human imagination, aided perhaps by dark entities (spirits/fallen angels). As it IS so deeply engrained in the human psyche that first (or one of the first) lies - "surely.. you won't.. ..die?" [To me resurrection is a bringing back from non life. And Life is God Himself, and He's also Perfection and we are all deeeply learning that one cannot wander from God, to do so would be to self destruct in a puff of smoke.. so to speak. Can't be done as im-perfection is the opposite of Life. I.e. we're learning the aLL imporTant message of good from evil, which is also life from death and true from untrue.] :smile:

[mplsfitter539]

Again, everybody I am new here, and am trying to figure out where I stand on the issue of UR. Many of the articles I have read on this website I have found to be well thought out and provoking (in a good way). A few questions I would like to throw out there too see what everybody's thoughts/beliefs are.

1. What is the fate of the unbeliever after death?

2. What is your thought on the belief of the "age of accountability"?

3. Lastly what is your take on these NDE's where people say that Jesus showed them Hell? Particularly those that have shown up recently on various websites that have not published their accounts? I am trying to put them behind me, however they keep resurfacing in my mind.

1. The fate of unbeliever will eventually be the same as the believer because everyone will be restored.

2. Age of accountability will be the age that judgement takes place. Ages are time cycles like the age before the flood or the age until Jesus or the age since Jesus. Then there is the age of the millennium to come and is followed by the white throne judgement. Since the judgement follows the millennium it may be part of the same age or it may be the start of a new age.

3. People who have had dreams of hell simply had a bad dream and confused it with reality.   

[eaglesway]

It is also possible that some NDE's involving fire were visionary experiences communicating the present spiritual actuality of the lost as they live in this world of trouble, sin and turmoil. The assumption that it is a vision of the future is just that- an assumption.
The fire depicted in some NDE's may simply be a parable of the torment of the lost in their various sufferings of the consequences of separation from God.

[jbertonbounds]

Way to go JBAVRY!  You are searching for truth.  :dsunny: Seek and you will find.  Ask and it will be given you.  Knock and the doors will be opened.

I don't know of any scripture that teaches the common view that a person goes straight to heaven or the mythical hell as soon as they die.  L Ray Smith had an interesting teaching on this topic at bible-truths.com. 

Recently there were some interesting replies to the post entitled "Are babies and retarded people saved by default?" here on this forum.  You will find that post in the Lounge.

IMO, To believe that NDE's are anything but bad dreams would be unscriptural.  I believe that they are just some special rare form of dream that occurs in the brain as it begins to shut down in the near death state, where, if the person pulls through, they can sometimes remember it later - but that's just my own uneducated guess.

Keep searching for truth, and may God bless you beyond your imagination! :thumbsup:

[Ken]

Hello jbavry,

Simply put, there are two resurrection periods. Those chosen by God to be in the first resurrection and the Kingdom of God will be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ.

All others, believers or unbelievers, will be resurrected at the second resurrection.

More information is available in this article:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Ken

(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)

[mplsfitter539]

Ken thanks for this post. From the links on this page I was able to locate the individual who patiently walked me through understanding UR. I went back and looked at the emails I exchanged with him and was able to see some very big changes in my attitude in the past year. I wrote him a quick update letter on finding Tentmaker and embracing UR with my whole heart and mind. I am grateful that he took the time to correspond with me long enough to change my stubborn mind.

[Lazarus Short]

I was a "card-carrying" Seventh-Day Adventist for a few years, and they have a heavy emphasis on the State of the Dead.  I'm not in line with their theology anymore, but this is how I see it.  You must go to Genesis, where God made man:

dust + God's action = a body (dead)

dead body + God's Spirit = a living soul (Adam).

When we die, the process is reversed:

living soul - God's Spirit = dead body.

So on death it's like this:

the living soul (living, thinking person) goes "poof"

the Spirit returns to God who gave It

the body returns to dust.

There is no component any longer to be active or conscious, so death is non-existence.

The Resurrection must be very similar to the making of Adam, and we again become living and active and conscious.

[jbertonbounds]

I was a "card-carrying" Seventh-Day Adventist for a few years, and they have a heavy emphasis on the State of the Dead.  I'm not in line with their theology anymore, but this is how I see it.  You must go to Genesis, where God made man:

dust + God's action = a body (dead)

dead body + God's Spirit = a living soul (Adam).

When we die, the process is reversed:

living soul - God's Spirit = dead body.

So on death it's like this:

the living soul (living, thinking person) goes "poof"

the Spirit returns to God who gave It

the body returns to dust.

There is no component any longer to be active or conscious, so death is non-existence.

The Resurrection must be very similar to the making of Adam, and we again become living and active and conscious.

This is a very interesting point-of-view.

[Lazarus Short]

jberton, I should add to my assertion that there is, after death, no component of the former living person to be active, or conscious, this:

there is also, after death, no component of the former living person, that can be cast into Hell, as the Spirit/Breath has returned to God who gave It, the body returns to dust, and the soul IS NO LONGER.

That is only one reason I call Hell a 404.

[jbertonbounds]

I agree with that.  Dead means dead!  Period!  Until the resurrection.  IMO.

[Lazarus Short]

I agree with that.  Dead means dead!  Period!  Until the resurrection.  IMO.

Put 'er there!   :gimmefive:

[jbertonbounds]

Just one more area of doctrine where people get into trouble trying to take it all too literally.

[eaglesway]

Eph 5:14  Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

So if dead means dead how you gona wake up :o)

Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)


So if you was dead how you walkin round?

[Lazarus Short]

Eph 5:14  Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

So if dead means dead how you gona wake up :o)

Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)


So if you was dead how you walkin round?

With God, all things are possible, even the salvation of the Lost.

[jbertonbounds]

I believe that the word "dead" is used in two ways in the scriptures:
(1) referring to those that are dead in sin, but still physically alive, dead spiritually.
(2) referring to those that have literally died the physical death.

So when I say dead means dead, I am referring to the state of being expired, croaked, kicked to bucket, gone, dead as a door nail, dead. :laugh:

But Laz took the words right out of my mouth, "With God, all things are possible, even the salvation of the Lost."

[eaglesway]

I believe that the word "dead" is used in two ways in the scriptures:
(1) referring to those that are dead in sin, but still physically alive, dead spiritually.
(2) referring to those that have literally died the physical death.

So when I say dead means dead, I am referring to the state of being expired, croaked, kicked to bucket, gone, dead as a door nail, dead. :laugh:

But Laz took the words right out of my mouth, "With God, all things are possible, even the salvation of the Lost."

Yes, and if all things are possible with God, it is also possible that God can raise whom He will whenever He wills. While some seek to establish the rules by which they think God must conduct Himself and strict defintions of how He defines Himself and things like death and where and what it is- I see many exceptions to those rules and an"eon-flux" between time and eternity that is far less dependable than we would like, intellectually. God doesnt care about our consternation or attempts at systemized theology, He is first a spirit-

For who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counsleor and who has given Him anything that He should repay?

If God wanted to allow Samuel to be awakened and speak a shocking word to Saul- So Be It! If God left David in the grave but decided to keep Enoch  or Elijah alive in His presence, or reject Sattan's claim to Moses- SO WHAT :o) Where is it written that God said, "If I did this at that time then I must do that all the time so man can box my works and sell them in books of learning" :o)



"The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound thereof but you do not know from whence it comes or to where it goes- So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

:2c:

[Deena]

Laz, if nothing of the former person remains then why do we go through various trials in this life? Are all lessons lost? That takes the futility of this life to a whole new despairing level.

[Lazarus Short]

Laz, if nothing of the former person remains then why do we go through various trials in this life? Are all lessons lost? That takes the futility of this life to a whole new despairing level.

Nothing good is lost, only our wood, hay, and stubble will be burnt up.  That is why we need to strive to be Christ-like, so that more that is good will be left after that which is burnt away is burnt away.  The Bible tells us that if our works are not good, we will suffer loss, but still be saved as by fire.

[Jock]

What is outer darkness?

[mplsfitter539]

Laz, if nothing of the former person remains then why do we go through various trials in this life? Are all lessons lost? That takes the futility of this life to a whole new despairing level.

The spirit that returns to God preserves the consciousness until the resurrection.

[rosered]

1. What is the fate of the unbeliever after death?

To be regenerated  right ?  because without faith it is impossile to please  God

  That being born again is of faith correct ?
Death  is described as the last enemy because of Jesus Christ work on  the Cross


  Many and I do believe many, dont even understand the Power of the Cross of Jesus Christ 

Col 2 is a powerful meassge to believers born again of faith  and the seed of Christ in their hearts

that to me is the determining factor  of what is born of God /Spirit and what is born of  natural  man /flesh and blood

  those not given that now in death of self  will  be given at natural death , because God is that  ALMIGHTY
Gods plan  of salvation  , is perfect , complete and entire without  flaw
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 


Col 2:9   For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 


Col 2:10   And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 

Col 2:11 ¶ In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 


Col 2:12   Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 
Col 2:13   And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 


Col 2:14   Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 


Col 2:15   [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 


Col 2:16   Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: 


Col 2:17   Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. 


The reason  so many believe that or that is because every experience is different  , but its done in an order  by the Lords own plan   that no man could ever understand

Our own flesh is a heavy  weight and covering that keeps the Spirit of God in such a holy place we cannot even touch it  , no matter how much we try   
  the Holy of Holies  that  Rev speaks of is so deep within the Spirit of God  inside you ,  it takes a doing away  completly of our flesh [man of sin ]   before we can even enter it fully,  but DONE by the Lord God Himself !!!!!


17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come;

[ Our own flesh and blood is a dark shadow  and covering  :eek:]


but the substance belongs to Christ. !!!

18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, [messengers ]


taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,


19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world,


why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"

we are not to hold , handle or even touch  anything but the HEAD being Christ Jesus HOLDING AND LIFTING HIM UP IN PLACE !!! HIGHEST HONOR  AND POSITION  , being the body of believers  that are held together in LOVE  and love only , not the other  crazy  notions and fear of  being tainted by the false  , but if Love rules and reigns  in your heart  , you are pure  , pure  are all  things to those  whom are pure [Titus 1 ;15 ]

ONLY LOVE WILL REMAIN ! every other work that is not done in God will perish with use



22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence

Babylon is the confusion by mixing   flesh and spirit     the false and true  , the literal and  spiritual ....... etc
  its Babylon that all those judgments of God  are sent against to be destroyed  in all of mankind
 

[mplsfitter539]

 Jock this was in response to your question about outer darkness.

Matthew 22

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


Outer darkness is not being at the wedding party. The wedding party will be grand and those not welcome to it will be very sad. Sad people gnash their teeth and wail.  :banana: