Again, everybody I am new here, and am trying to figure out where I stand on the issue of UR. Many of the articles I have read on this website I have found to be well thought out and provoking (in a good way). A few questions I would like to throw out there too see what everybody's thoughts/beliefs are.
1. What is the fate of the unbeliever after death?
2. What is your thought on the belief of the "age of accountability"?
3. Lastly what is your take on these NDE's where people say that Jesus showed them Hell? Particularly those that have shown up recently on various websites that have not published their accounts? I am trying to put them behind me, however they keep resurfacing in my mind.
There are several different views about what happens at a believers death- among UR believers as with others. My personal opinion is that everyone awakens at the judgment throne of Christ. Overcomers at the first resurrection. Everyone else at the second resurrection/Great White Throne judgment. As to whether they sleep or cease to exist inbetween as time passes- I do not want to get into my opinion on that- it always engenders an unnecessary debate over something that is not all that clear in the first place.
As to the age of accountability, I think it varies, depending on many factors such as the environment in which a child is raised, the rate at which a person matures. IMO by adolescence (13-17) most people are accountable to God for their attitudes and actions.
On this web-site, we all agree that the consummation of God's plan is the reconciliation and restoration of all. We have some lively disagreements on some other aspects of theology :o)
I haven't been shown a whole lot regarding what happens at death but I do know that believers and unbelievers alike will be freed from sin. (How this whole process will pan out is yet to be seen for me but I don't need to know because I know my Father well enough to know that I have nothing to fear... for myself or for my loved ones.)
The age of accountability is based off of the false belief of "hell". That believers go to "heaven" and unbelievers go to "hell" and that those who are not old enough to "choose God" will automatically be sent to "heaven". However we know that God chose us and He is the Father of spirits. And that even as in Adam all die so shall in Christ shall all be made alive.
As for crazy hellish experiences, have you ever had a nightmare? They can seem quite real can't they? Rather than the reality of what happens after death these are showing the reality of the person's soul. There are many many nde's that completely blow these hellish experience (and the christians take of "heaven and hell") right out of the water. ("Pagans" who see Jesus and have a wonderful experience, "unbelievers" walking around in peaceful serenity, etc.) What helped me overcome all of these questions was going back to my own experiences with God and reconnecting with Him like I did when I first turned to Him years ago. Once all of the lies about our Abba are beginning to shatter it makes it much easier to go to Him and have Him reveal Himself to us directly. :HeartThrob:
Huge blessings to you as you continue in your quest for truth!
hi! When I discovered or realized that the first advent of Jesus was prophesied (and fulfilled by) ancient Israel's Spring Holy Days, it seemed like the next step in logic was that Autumn Holy Days prophesied (and will be fulfilled by) His long second advent. It would seem logical that the three Holy Days would coincide with three major peaks of this second advent, from Jesus' return to when the very Throne of Father Almighty comes to the earth. [Of course all this would also depend upon confirmation by His Spirit and also in His Word.]
The three peaks i would think, would be - (#1)His return - (#2)what is commonly called Judgment Day - and (#3)God's Throne now upon Earth, and God will now "tabernacle" with man..
The Fall Holy Days are (#1)Trumpets - (#2)Day of Atonement (biggest Holy Day to Israel?) - and (#3)Tabernacles. There are 10 days between (#1)Trumpets and (#2)Atonement, and there are 5 days between Atonement and (#3)Tabernacles.
In this line of reasoning, "Trumpets" isn't difficult for we know there are seven trumps and He returns with a trumpet blast (& fire) and with angels which He sends out to gather His elect from the four corners (directions) of the world (Mt 24:29-31).
Next, we know, for we are told (Rev 20:1-6) that there is a 1000 year kingdom of Christ upon Earth.
And the next peak of Jesus' second advent surely would be the 2nd resurrection and the Great White Throne Judgment ('day'), which resurrection of course is of all those who have not (yet) believed and been joined to Jesus.
{Now really, there is only one verse which could seem to suggest that one MUST believe before death, this being when Jesus told the Pharisees unless they repented, they would "die in their sins". But! Surely to be resurrected "in your sins" cannot be as joyful and glorious an experience as to be resurrected (or lifted away) at His (glorious:) return.}
Now, I hate to sound totally ridiculous, but it seems to me iF, there are 10 days between Holy Days (#1) and (#2) and 1000 years between (#1) and (#2)advent peaks, then perhaps the 3rd advent peak would coincide with the "5 days" between (#2)Atonement and (#3)Tabernacles, as 500 years between peaks (#2) and (#3).. And surely the 3rd peak is when God comes to the planet, makes "all things new", "wipes all tears" and there is now "no more death" etc, and coincides with "Tabernacles". The peak of all peaks! :dsunny:
I'm assuming it's at the end of peak (#2) which includes, or is(?) Judgment Day, "the Great White Throne Judgment" (Rev 20;11-14) - i'm assuming it's at the end of this 'day' when "those not written in the Book of Life will go to the Lake of Fire". What does it require to be written in the Book of Life? (To be ALIVE?) Isn't it to "believe"...? How many, after having experienced being resurrected from their grave, and having lived through and witnessed an intense day of the judgment and review of all things.. all human history, etc. Who after all that isn't going to "believe"?
The age of accountability, I've never yet seen in the Bible.. so :dontknow: i leave that up to God..
The 'hell' visions? :eyebrow: :Chinscratch: I guess I don't know.. I simply don't believe them.. sometimes I've wondered if 'ghosts' might not be dreaming dead.. sort of sleepwalking? as they do seem by all accounts to be rather out of it.. But mostly I think visions of hell (and ghosts) are 'phantoms' :laughing7: of human imagination, aided perhaps by dark entities (spirits/fallen angels). As it IS so deeply engrained in the human psyche that first (or one of the first) lies - "surely.. you won't.. ..die?" [To me resurrection is a bringing back from non life. And Life is God Himself, and He's also Perfection and we are all deeeply learning that one cannot wander from God, to do so would be to self destruct in a puff of smoke.. so to speak. Can't be done as im-perfection is the opposite of Life. I.e. we're learning the aLL imporTant message of good from evil, which is also life from death and true from untrue.] :smile:
Quote from: jbavry on April 06, 2013, 04:15:49 AM
Again, everybody I am new here, and am trying to figure out where I stand on the issue of UR. Many of the articles I have read on this website I have found to be well thought out and provoking (in a good way). A few questions I would like to throw out there too see what everybody's thoughts/beliefs are.
1. What is the fate of the unbeliever after death?
2. What is your thought on the belief of the "age of accountability"?
3. Lastly what is your take on these NDE's where people say that Jesus showed them Hell? Particularly those that have shown up recently on various websites that have not published their accounts? I am trying to put them behind me, however they keep resurfacing in my mind.
1. The fate of unbeliever will eventually be the same as the believer because everyone will be restored.
2. Age of accountability will be the age that judgement takes place. Ages are time cycles like the age before the flood or the age until Jesus or the age since Jesus. Then there is the age of the millennium to come and is followed by the white throne judgement. Since the judgement follows the millennium it may be part of the same age or it may be the start of a new age.
3. People who have had dreams of hell simply had a bad dream and confused it with reality.
It is also possible that some NDE's involving fire were visionary experiences communicating the present spiritual actuality of the lost as they live in this world of trouble, sin and turmoil. The assumption that it is a vision of the future is just that- an assumption.
The fire depicted in some NDE's may simply be a parable of the torment of the lost in their various sufferings of the consequences of separation from God.
Way to go JBAVRY! You are searching for truth. :dsunny: Seek and you will find. Ask and it will be given you. Knock and the doors will be opened.
I don't know of any scripture that teaches the common view that a person goes straight to heaven or the mythical hell as soon as they die. L Ray Smith had an interesting teaching on this topic at bible-truths.com.
Recently there were some interesting replies to the post entitled "Are babies and retarded people saved by default?" here on this forum. You will find that post in the Lounge.
IMO, To believe that NDE's are anything but bad dreams would be unscriptural. I believe that they are just some special rare form of dream that occurs in the brain as it begins to shut down in the near death state, where, if the person pulls through, they can sometimes remember it later - but that's just my own uneducated guess.
Keep searching for truth, and may God bless you beyond your imagination! :thumbsup:
Hello jbavry,
Simply put, there are two resurrection periods. Those chosen by God to be in the first resurrection and the Kingdom of God will be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ.
All others, believers or unbelievers, will be resurrected at the second resurrection.
More information is available in this article:
http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm (http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm)
Ken
(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)
Ken thanks for this post. From the links on this page I was able to locate the individual who patiently walked me through understanding UR. I went back and looked at the emails I exchanged with him and was able to see some very big changes in my attitude in the past year. I wrote him a quick update letter on finding Tentmaker and embracing UR with my whole heart and mind. I am grateful that he took the time to correspond with me long enough to change my stubborn mind.
I was a "card-carrying" Seventh-Day Adventist for a few years, and they have a heavy emphasis on the State of the Dead. I'm not in line with their theology anymore, but this is how I see it. You must go to Genesis, where God made man:
dust + God's action = a body (dead)
dead body + God's Spirit = a living soul (Adam).
When we die, the process is reversed:
living soul - God's Spirit = dead body.
So on death it's like this:
the living soul (living, thinking person) goes "poof"
the Spirit returns to God who gave It
the body returns to dust.
There is no component any longer to be active or conscious, so death is non-existence.
The Resurrection must be very similar to the making of Adam, and we again become living and active and conscious.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 02, 2013, 06:30:05 PM
I was a "card-carrying" Seventh-Day Adventist for a few years, and they have a heavy emphasis on the State of the Dead. I'm not in line with their theology anymore, but this is how I see it. You must go to Genesis, where God made man:
dust + God's action = a body (dead)
dead body + God's Spirit = a living soul (Adam).
When we die, the process is reversed:
living soul - God's Spirit = dead body.
So on death it's like this:
the living soul (living, thinking person) goes "poof"
the Spirit returns to God who gave It
the body returns to dust.
There is no component any longer to be active or conscious, so death is non-existence.
The Resurrection must be very similar to the making of Adam, and we again become living and active and conscious.
This is a very interesting point-of-view.
jberton, I should add to my assertion that there is, after death, no component of the former living person to be active, or conscious, this:
there is also, after death, no component of the former living person, that can be cast into Hell, as the Spirit/Breath has returned to God who gave It, the body returns to dust, and the soul IS NO LONGER.
That is only one reason I call Hell a 404.
I agree with that. Dead means dead! Period! Until the resurrection. IMO.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 02, 2013, 09:01:27 PM
I agree with that. Dead means dead! Period! Until the resurrection. IMO.
Put 'er there! :gimmefive:
Just one more area of doctrine where people get into trouble trying to take it all too literally.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
So if dead means dead how you gona wake up :o)
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
So if you was dead how you walkin round?
Quote from: eaglesway on May 06, 2013, 07:24:24 AM
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
So if dead means dead how you gona wake up :o)
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
So if you was dead how you walkin round?
With God, all things are possible, even the salvation of the Lost.
I believe that the word "dead" is used in two ways in the scriptures:
(1) referring to those that are dead in sin, but still physically alive, dead spiritually.
(2) referring to those that have literally died the physical death.
So when I say dead means dead, I am referring to the state of being expired, croaked, kicked to bucket, gone, dead as a door nail, dead. :laugh:
But Laz took the words right out of my mouth, "With God, all things are possible, even the salvation of the Lost."
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 06, 2013, 05:35:48 PM
I believe that the word "dead" is used in two ways in the scriptures:
(1) referring to those that are dead in sin, but still physically alive, dead spiritually.
(2) referring to those that have literally died the physical death.
So when I say dead means dead, I am referring to the state of being expired, croaked, kicked to bucket, gone, dead as a door nail, dead. :laugh:
But Laz took the words right out of my mouth, "With God, all things are possible, even the salvation of the Lost."
Yes, and if all things are possible with God, it is also possible that God can raise whom He will whenever He wills. While some seek to establish the rules by which they think God must conduct Himself and strict defintions of how He defines Himself and things like death and where and what it is- I see many exceptions to those rules and an"eon-flux" between time and eternity that is far less dependable than we would like, intellectually. God doesnt care about our consternation or attempts at systemized theology, He is first a spirit-
For who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counsleor and who has given Him anything that He should repay?
If God wanted to allow Samuel to be awakened and speak a shocking word to Saul- So Be It! If God left David in the grave but decided to keep Enoch or Elijah alive in His presence, or reject Sattan's claim to Moses- SO WHAT :o) Where is it written that God said, "If I did this at that time then I must do that all the time so man can box my works and sell them in books of learning" :o)
"The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound thereof but you do not know from whence it comes or to where it goes- So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
:2c:
Laz, if nothing of the former person remains then why do we go through various trials in this life? Are all lessons lost? That takes the futility of this life to a whole new despairing level.
Quote from: Deena on May 08, 2013, 12:22:32 PM
Laz, if nothing of the former person remains then why do we go through various trials in this life? Are all lessons lost? That takes the futility of this life to a whole new despairing level.
Nothing good is lost, only our wood, hay, and stubble will be burnt up. That is why we need to strive to be Christ-like, so that more that is good will be left after that which is burnt away is burnt away. The Bible tells us that if our works are not good, we will suffer loss, but still be saved as by fire.
What is outer darkness?
Quote from: Deena on May 08, 2013, 12:22:32 PM
Laz, if nothing of the former person remains then why do we go through various trials in this life? Are all lessons lost? That takes the futility of this life to a whole new despairing level.
The spirit that returns to God preserves the consciousness until the resurrection.
Quote1. What is the fate of the unbeliever after death?
To be regenerated right ? because without faith it is impossile to please God
That being born again is of faith correct ?
Death is described as the last enemy because of Jesus Christ work on the Cross
Many and I do believe many, dont even understand the Power of the Cross of Jesus Christ
Col 2 is a powerful meassge to believers born again of faith and the seed of Christ in their hearts
that to me is the determining factor of what is born of God /Spirit and what is born of natural man /flesh and blood
those not given that now in death of self will be given at natural death , because God is that ALMIGHTY
Gods plan of salvation , is perfect , complete and entire without flaw
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col 2:10 And
ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: Col 2:11 ¶ In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh
by the circumcision of Christ: Col 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
The reason so many believe that or that is because every experience is different , but its done in an order by the Lords own plan that no man could ever understand
Our own flesh is a heavy weight and covering that keeps the Spirit of God in such a holy place we cannot even touch it , no matter how much we try
the Holy of Holies that Rev speaks of is so deep within the Spirit of God inside you , it takes a doing away completly of our flesh [man of sin ] before we can even enter it fully, but DONE by the Lord God Himself !!!!!
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come;
[ Our own flesh and blood is a dark shadow and covering :eek:]
but the substance belongs to Christ. !!!
18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship
of the angels, [messengers ]
taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments,
grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world,
why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" we are not to hold , handle or even touch anything but the HEAD being Christ Jesus HOLDING AND LIFTING HIM UP IN PLACE !!! HIGHEST HONOR AND POSITION , being the body of believers that are held together in LOVE and love only , not the other crazy notions and fear of being tainted by the false , but if Love rules and reigns in your heart , you are pure , pure are all things to those whom are pure [Titus 1 ;15 ]
ONLY LOVE WILL REMAIN ! every other work that is not done in God will perish with use
22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence
Babylon is the confusion by mixing flesh and spirit the false and true , the literal and spiritual ....... etc
its Babylon that all those judgments of God are sent against to be destroyed in all of mankind
Jock this was in response to your question about outer darkness.
Matthew 22
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Outer darkness is not being at the wedding party. The wedding party will be grand and those not welcome to it will be very sad. Sad people gnash their teeth and wail. :banana:
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 15, 2013, 12:49:19 AM
Jock this was in response to your question about outer darkness.
Matthew 22
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Outer darkness is not being at the wedding party. The wedding party will be grand and those not welcome to it will be very sad. Sad people gnash their teeth and wail. :banana:
beautimous :o)
Thanks Eaglesway. I reckon those that are at the feast are the ones who WANT to be there. They have accepted the invitation.
Jock not only do they want to be at the wedding party they also are wearing their wedding garments. Everyone will want to be there but most will not be wearing the proper wedding garments. This is where ET believes that if you are not invited to the wedding party then you go to hell. UR says that no one goes to a fake place that does not exist but not all will be at the wedding party.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 15, 2013, 12:49:19 AM
Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Outer darkness is not being at the wedding party. The wedding party will be grand and those not welcome to it will be very sad. Sad people gnash their teeth and wail.
Right on, fitter. I have for some time believed that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" described deep sorrow, not the reaction of someone being burned by fire (as taught by ET's - that would be screaming and thrashing about).
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 15, 2013, 12:49:19 AM
Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Outer darkness is not being at the wedding party. The wedding party will be grand and those not welcome to it will be very sad. Sad people gnash their teeth and wail.
Excellent point!
:thumbsup:
Some are already enjoying the wedding party.
Some are already weeping and gnashing their teeth.
:o)
Quote from: eaglesway on May 15, 2013, 11:32:54 PM
Some are already enjoying the wedding party.
Some are already weeping and gnashing their teeth.
:o)
How do you mean?
Many are called but few are chosen? I don't get it. :dontknow:
Jock
Jock,
Many could mean more like all are called but few are chosen. Like Martin Zender says everyone gets tickets to the rock concert but only a few get back stage passes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnzRBj9_Yc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnzRBj9_Yc) :banana:
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 16, 2013, 01:40:52 PM
Jock,
Many could mean more like all are called but few are chosen. Like Martin Zender says everyone gets tickets to the rock concert but only a few get back stage passes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnzRBj9_Yc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnzRBj9_Yc) :banana:
:iagree:
Sounds right to me.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 16, 2013, 12:38:21 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 15, 2013, 11:32:54 PM
Some are already enjoying the wedding party.
Some are already weeping and gnashing their teeth.
:o)
How do you mean?
the wedding party has begun. It is the union of the Bride and the Lamb. The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come". Jesus said, "Ther will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see the Gentiles in the kingdom and you yourselves shut out"...or something close to that. When the Spirit in us says "Come" we are at the feast inviting others......GATHERING. When we hear a voice, "The Bridegroom Comes!"- we run out into the night(hopefully with extra oil gathered in the day) to FIND HIM -prophetically, "That where I AM there you may be also", This I pray, that you may BE ONE(united, gathered in Him) that YOUR JOY MAY BE FULL."
Whenever two or more of you gather i my name, THER I AM(dwelling/tabernacling) IN YOUR MIDST.
Of course, the consummation of the wedding feast will be at the first resurrection gathering at the end of this age, but it will only be for those WHO WErE GATHERED ALREADY, who HEARD THE CALL AND WENT OUT, leaving there quiet rest and sleep behind to BE WHERE HE IS and to celebrate THE MARRIAGE-
AWAKE O SLEEPER, ARISE FROM THE DEAD and THE LIGHT OF CHRIST WILL SHINE ON YOU
Lord remove my veil, Kiss me with the kisses of your lips.
My beloved came for me(behold I stand at the door and knock), I heard his hand upon the door knob(if any man hear me and open up the door), but I said- my feet are clean, i do not want rise from my comfortable bed, (not counting all as loss). Then He LEFT- and I rose up in haste and I went out and I cried, "HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BELOVED", but He was nowhere to be found. I asked the watchmen and they mocked me. I asked the shepherds and they misled me, "HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BELOVED"- I wept, until He came to me. (weeping opens the door, a broken and a contrite heart I will ot cast out)
What will we do if our little sister has no breasts?(immaturity) "Call to the wind, COME O NORTH WIND(sufferring, trial)"
Son 8:8-14 "We have a little sister, And she has no breasts; What shall we do for our sister On the day when she is spoken for? "If she is a wall, We will build on her a battlement of silver; But if she is a door, We will barricade her with planks of cedar." "I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; Then I became in his eyes as one who finds peace. "Solomon had a vineyard at Baal-hamon; He entrusted the vineyard to caretakers. Each one was to bring a thousand shekels of silver for its fruit. "My very own vineyard is at my disposal; The thousand shekels are for you, Solomon, And two hundred are for those who take care of its fruit." "O you who sit in the gardens, My companions are listening for your voice-- Let me hear it!" (14) "Hurry, my beloved, And be like a gazelle or a young stag On the mountains of spices."
Isa 27:1-9 In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea(Let there be light). In that day, "A vineyard of wine, sing of it! "I, the LORD, am its keeper; I water it every moment. So that no one will damage it, I guard it night and day.
"I have no wrath(ministry of reconciliation/gathering/wedding feast). Should someone give Me briars and thorns in battle, Then I would step on them, I would burn them completely(ministry of condemnation/separating/shut outside). "Or let him rely on My protection, Let him make peace with Me, Let him make peace with Me."(repenting of the hardness of our hearts/yielding/brokenness) In the days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will blossom and sprout, And they will fill the whole world with fruit.(Psalm 51, James 3:15-17) Like the striking of Him who has struck them, has He struck them? Or like the slaughter of His slain, have they been slain? You contended with them by banishing them, by driving them away(therefore they weep and gnash their teeth). With His fierce wind He has expelled them on the day of the east wind(thoroughly purging the threshing floor). Therefore through this Jacob's iniquity will be forgiven; And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin: When he makes all the altar stones like pulverized chalk stones; When Asherim and incense altars will not stand(no more idolizing the works of his own hands and his appetites.
The wicked man hates the righteous and gnashes his teeth on him, but the righteous does not resist him.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 16, 2013, 01:40:52 PM
Jock,
Many could mean more like all are called but few are chosen. Like Martin Zender says everyone gets tickets to the rock concert but only a few get back stage passes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnzRBj9_Yc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnzRBj9_Yc) :banana:
Love those 3 verses:
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men,
especially unto them who are of the household of faith. [Gal 6:10]
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe. [1Tim 4:10]
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross,
by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. [Col 1:20}
After that, Zender's theology becomes a bit of a mishmash. But, fun! :laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Srr5KetBCI
Quote from: eaglesway on May 20, 2013, 02:59:15 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 16, 2013, 12:38:21 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 15, 2013, 11:32:54 PM
Some are already enjoying the wedding party.
Some are already weeping and gnashing their teeth.
:o)
How do you mean?
the wedding party has begun. It is the union of the Bride and the Lamb. The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come". Jesus said, "Ther will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see the Gentiles in the kingdom and you yourselves shut out"...or something close to that. When the Spirit in us says "Come" we are at the feast inviting others......GATHERING. When we hear a voice, "The Bridegroom Comes!"- we run out into the night(hopefully with extra oil gathered in the day) to FIND HIM -prophetically, "That where I AM there you may be also", This I pray, that you may BE ONE(united, gathered in Him) that YOUR JOY MAY BE FULL."
Whenever two or more of you gather i my name, THER I AM(dwelling/tabernacling) IN YOUR MIDST.
Of course, the consummation of the wedding feast will be at the first resurrection gathering at the end of this age, but it will only be for those WHO WErE GATHERED ALREADY, who HEARD THE CALL AND WENT OUT, leaving there quiet rest and sleep behind to BE WHERE HE IS and to celebrate THE MARRIAGE-
AWAKE O SLEEPER, ARISE FROM THE DEAD and THE LIGHT OF CHRIST WILL SHINE ON YOU
Lord remove my veil, Kiss me with the kisses of your lips.
My beloved came for me(behold I stand at the door and knock), I heard his hand upon the door knob(if any man hear me and open up the door), but I said- my feet are clean, i do not want rise from my comfortable bed, (not counting all as loss). Then He LEFT- and I rose up in haste and I went out and I cried, "HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BELOVED", but He was nowhere to be found. I asked the watchmen and they mocked me. I asked the shepherds and they misled me, "HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BELOVED"- I wept, until He came to me. (weeping opens the door, a broken and a contrite heart I will ot cast out)
What will we do if our little sister has no breasts?(immaturity) "Call to the wind, COME O NORTH WIND(sufferring, trial)"
Son 8:8-14 "We have a little sister, And she has no breasts; What shall we do for our sister On the day when she is spoken for? "If she is a wall, We will build on her a battlement of silver; But if she is a door, We will barricade her with planks of cedar." "I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; Then I became in his eyes as one who finds peace. "Solomon had a vineyard at Baal-hamon; He entrusted the vineyard to caretakers. Each one was to bring a thousand shekels of silver for its fruit. "My very own vineyard is at my disposal; The thousand shekels are for you, Solomon, And two hundred are for those who take care of its fruit." "O you who sit in the gardens, My companions are listening for your voice-- Let me hear it!" (14) "Hurry, my beloved, And be like a gazelle or a young stag On the mountains of spices."
Isa 27:1-9 In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea(Let there be light). In that day, "A vineyard of wine, sing of it! "I, the LORD, am its keeper; I water it every moment. So that no one will damage it, I guard it night and day.
"I have no wrath(ministry of reconciliation/gathering/wedding feast). Should someone give Me briars and thorns in battle, Then I would step on them, I would burn them completely(ministry of condemnation/separating/shut outside). "Or let him rely on My protection, Let him make peace with Me, Let him make peace with Me."(repenting of the hardness of our hearts/yielding/brokenness) In the days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will blossom and sprout, And they will fill the whole world with fruit.(Psalm 51, James 3:15-17) Like the striking of Him who has struck them, has He struck them? Or like the slaughter of His slain, have they been slain? You contended with them by banishing them, by driving them away(therefore they weep and gnash their teeth). With His fierce wind He has expelled them on the day of the east wind(thoroughly purging the threshing floor). Therefore through this Jacob's iniquity will be forgiven; And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin: When he makes all the altar stones like pulverized chalk stones; When Asherim and incense altars will not stand(no more idolizing the works of his own hands and his appetites.
The wicked man hates the righteous and gnashes his teeth on him, but the righteous does not resist him.
Thank you.
This is beautiful.
These passages mean so much more when we see the light of the symbology in them.
Literalists only see the Song of Solomon as a love story of Solomon and his lover.
They only see the history books of the bible as simply historical information.
They only see the Law books as obsolete rules.
They only see the Revelation as an agenda, a program of scheduled events.
They only see heaven versus hell.
Let he who has an ear hear, and he who has eyes see.
May God bless you all with hearing ears and seeing eyes.
Let there be light! :dsunny:
Eph 5:31 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
I never saw this before until this morning. WOW. Too often people overlook this in their teachings, and only teach that it pertains to human marriage, without bringing out what Paul is saying here (in bold). The Christ and his ekklesia will become one flesh - His flesh! This is huge! :banana:
It is, in my opinion, the OVERRIDING purpose of God in this age.
"And the Spirit and the Bride say COME, let everyone who thirst drink freely of the water of life."
"You have not come unto a mountain that cannot be touched, burning with fire.......but you have come to Zion, and the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect and unto the general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven and unto the blood that speaks better than able."
In the "administration working out through the completion of the times", the ages- God is working in this age to complete the mother of all who will be born of Him in the future- the Bride, the Body, the First fruits from among His creatures. She is gestating sons, who will be caught up to His throne and share in the ministry of reconciliation through out the ages to come.
"Our mother is Jerusalem from above, who is free"
"And I saw the holy city coming down from out of heaven like a Bride adorned for the Bridegroom in white linen, the righteous acts of the saints"
Jesus said, "I am the true bread that comes down out of heaven"
For something to "come down out of heaven" means for something that has been hidden and forming in the heavenly realms to manifest openly among men on the earth......"THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN"
WHat is happening is that all that is in heaven(the presence, power, love of God) is pouring through the tear in the veil that divides heaven and earth- that tear initiated in the body of our Lord and being completed in those who are as Paul put it, "filling up in their bodies the sufferings of Christ"
Rom 12:1-5 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Liked that! Indeed,of Zion[Jerusalem Above] it will be said...'This one and that one were born in her....
AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL ESTABLISH HER. To me, this is a fulfillment of bringing in all the fruit....
so that a blessing is poured out until their is no more want..the floodgates of the Heavens being opened........
and this is all the fruit...when I take away all their sins.........Jesus Christ..takes away all the sins of the people....
so there may be bread in His house..communion with God,and His house be a house of prayer for all men....
No more a den of theives and robbers...that would seperate us from God, our inheritance..or rob God of His inheritance
His people-mankind..of whom He created for His spirit to dwell in.
Jesus Christ...as a sign spoken against....of the goodness of God Psalms 86;17
the Lord will write in the register of the peoples[book of life] this one was born in Zion" as they make music
they will sing........'ALL MY FOUNTAINS ARE IN YOU"
I,Jesus haave sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches, 'I am the root and the offspring of David"
[stump of Jesse/sprout] and the bright morning star.
The spirit and the bride say come! And let who hears say ,Come!! Whoever is thirsty let him come!! and
whoever wishes,let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 20, 2013, 05:22:10 PM
Eph 5:31 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
I never saw this before until this morning. WOW. Too often people overlook this in their teachings, and only teach that it pertains to human marriage, without bringing out what Paul is saying here (in bold). The Christ and his ekklesia will become one flesh - His flesh! This is huge! :banana:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
:banana: :banana:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.--Eph 5:30
Quote from: sheila on May 20, 2013, 08:42:30 PM
Liked that! Indeed,of Zion[Jerusalem Above] it will be said...'This one and that one were born in her....
AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL ESTABLISH HER. To me, this is a fulfillment of bringing in all the fruit....
so that a blessing is poured out until their is no more want..the floodgates of the Heavens being opened........
and this is all the fruit...when I take away all their sins.........Jesus Christ..takes away all the sins of the people....
so there may be bread in His house..communion with God,and His house be a house of prayer for all men....
No more a den of theives and robbers...that would seperate us from God, our inheritance..or rob God of His inheritance
His people-mankind..of whom He created for His spirit to dwell in.
Jesus Christ...as a sign spoken against....of the goodness of God Psalms 86;17
the Lord will write in the register of the peoples[book of life] this one was born in Zion" as they make music
they will sing........'ALL MY FOUNTAINS ARE IN YOU"
I,Jesus haave sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches, 'I am the root and the offspring of David"
[stump of Jesse/sprout] and the bright morning star.
The spirit and the bride say come! And let who hears say ,Come!! Whoever is thirsty let him come!! and
whoever wishes,let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Yes, Yes -a thousand times, Yes~
Quote from: sheila on May 20, 2013, 08:42:30 PM
Liked that! Indeed,of Zion[Jerusalem Above] it will be said...'This one and that one were born in her....
AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL ESTABLISH HER. To me, this is a fulfillment of bringing in all the fruit....
so that a blessing is poured out until their is no more want..the floodgates of the Heavens being opened........
and this is all the fruit...when I take away all their sins.........Jesus Christ..takes away all the sins of the people....
so there may be bread in His house..communion with God,and His house be a house of prayer for all men....
No more a den of theives and robbers...that would seperate us from God, our inheritance..or rob God of His inheritance
His people-mankind..of whom He created for His spirit to dwell in.
Jesus Christ...as a sign spoken against....of the goodness of God Psalms 86;17
the Lord will write in the register of the peoples[book of life] this one was born in Zion" as they make music
they will sing........'ALL MY FOUNTAINS ARE IN YOU"
I,Jesus haave sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches, 'I am the root and the offspring of David"
[stump of Jesse/sprout] and the bright morning star.
The spirit and the bride say come! And let who hears say ,Come!! Whoever is thirsty let him come!! and
whoever wishes,let him take the free gift of the water of life.
WOW!
Hello Eaglesway,
The answer to your question can be found in this article. Be sure and read all of the hyperlinked articles, too:
http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm (http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm)
Thanks for the good question.
Ken
(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)
The way I understand Jesus' teaching about this is in comparison to his teachings about Gehenna. I'm not convinced (while I acknowledge it could be) that Jesus is talking about the afterlife at all. I believe weeping=depression, gnashing of teeth=anxiety. Isn't that what awaits anyone who is dying outside the city gates...where the worm dieth not? Those of us wearing our wedding garment (faith in Christ) are part of the party, inside the gates.
Yea Shawn, altho I think it is both most likely, i have no problem with the idea you present for surely I have wept and gashed my teeth and wrestled with the undying worm as the flames of light peeled back the veils of darkness that covered the secrets of my heart.......... "Nothing is hidden that shall not be brought to the light"....... "Every person will be salted with fire and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt" ......"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword dividing asunder soul and spirit and making manifest the thoughts and motivations of the heart, For all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"..... "And His eyes were as flames of fire and out of His mouth came a sharp two edged sword "
:o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 04, 2013, 12:38:25 AM
Yea Shawn, altho I think it is both most likely, i have no problem with the idea you present for surely I have wept and gashed my teeth and wrestled with the undying worm as the flames of light peeled back the veils of darkness that covered the secrets of my heart.......... "Nothing is hidden that shall not be brought to the light"....... "Every person will be salted with fire and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt" ......"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword dividing asunder soul and spirit and making manifest the thoughts and motivations of the heart, For all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"..... "And His eyes were as flames of fire and out of His mouth came a sharp two edged sword "
:o)
And you very well could be correct. I tend to see certain things which relate to the here and now. I have a hard time picturing life beyond this age. That's why I love reading the posts of many of my brothers and sisters here, as many see things I can't (at least yet).
wheels within wheels with eyes all around, and the spirit of the creatures was in the whirling wheels and they went wherever they would go like lightning, without turning as they went.
Sounds like a gyroscope to me. Balance from the multitude of counselors. All eyes looking out in different directions but all connected at the heart.
And the were all as one soul, and great grace was upon them all, and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied, and the Lord added daily to their number such as should be saved.
Quote from: jbavry on April 06, 2013, 04:15:49 AM
Again, everybody I am new here, and am trying to figure out where I stand on the issue of UR. Many of the articles I have read on this website I have found to be well thought out and provoking (in a good way). A few questions I would like to throw out there too see what everybody's thoughts/beliefs are.
1. What is the fate of the unbeliever after death?
2. What is your thought on the belief of the "age of accountability"?
3. Lastly what is your take on these NDE's where people say that Jesus showed them Hell? Particularly those that have shown up recently on various websites that have not published their accounts? I am trying to put them behind me, however they keep resurfacing in my mind.
Here is a good link with information to answer your first two questions.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/JudgmentAndDeath.html
Regarding your third question, my experience was nothing like the mythical hell of church doctrine. I left my body and looked down at myself in the hospital bed. Then I perceived myself falling or rushing through darkness until it was suddenly overcome by very bright light with a sense of total peace and unconditional love that was conveyed telepathically.
My opinion is that some folks misinterpret what they experience. I recently saw a video of a lady who decided to believe in reincarnation as a result of her NDE. I think her encounter with other life forms could better be explained as the realization that we are all one in the sense of having spirit in common. I also think our preconceived ideas due to religious training about the afterlife and the spirit world can affect an OBE/NDE.
Mystical experiences are profound, but I think we need to use caution about how we interpret them. The one thing that seems to be common to most is the realization of the importance of love in life. I think anybody who has had one has to be changed for life. But it's not necessary to have one to know that God is love because scripture tells us that. Christ's message was always about love.
Even the fate of unbelievers after death that you asked about is dealt with by a loving God who has no intention of torturing people forever in fire. They will simply be dead, unconscious of anything, until they are eventually immortalized at the consummation of the eons, and that is only because they were not given faith for eonian life. We may not always understand God's ways, but ultimately everything is a display of God's love for all his creatures. That's why scripture says God is love, all will be reconciled, and God will be all in all.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 06, 2013, 06:11:53 AM
There are several different views about what happens at a believers death- among UR believers as with others. My personal opinion is that everyone awakens at the judgment throne of Christ. Overcomers at the first resurrection. Everyone else at the second resurrection/Great White Throne judgment. As to whether they sleep or cease to exist inbetween as time passes- I do not want to get into my opinion on that- it always engenders an unnecessary debate over something that is not all that clear in the first place.
As to the age of accountability, I think it varies, depending on many factors such as the environment in which a child is raised, the rate at which a person matures. IMO by adolescence (13-17) most people are accountable to God for their attitudes and actions.
On this web-site, we all agree that the consummation of God's plan is the reconciliation and restoration of all. We have some lively disagreements on some other aspects of theology :o)
Jesus knows his sheep. We are awoken and translated into new bodies if dead or translated if alive at his coming.
The rest don't wake until the Judgment. Christ's sheep don't get Judged. We get gifts according to our works while works alone can't save us. Because of this timeline it seems that life goes on after Christ returns for 1000 years on earth where the remaining goats get schooled by Christ and his people. Revelation is tough to pin down but that's how I read it.
Revelation is tough to pin down :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on October 24, 2013, 08:39:45 PM
Revelation is tough to pin down :o)
Maybe reading TAS' booklet The Unveiling of Jesus Christ will give you some "aid" in pinning down -- :)
I'll be off the internet for about six weeks... but decided to do a final read before my internet services are put on hold beginning tomorrow Friday, Oct 25...
I've been enjoying a small booklet (29 pages) THE UNVEILING OF JESUS CHRIST by T. Austin-Sparks who believes that "the book is the revelation of final restoration and recovery in Christ Jesus" .... "I am alive for evermore." The Life of the Ages. Life Triumphant; Life Immortal! TAS maintains because of the conditions of the time when revelation was given to John, much of the book of necessity had to be symbolic... and so much more. The booklet can be read online at
http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/unveiling_of_jesus_christ_the.html
I'm not so much looking for a discussion on this booklet ... it challenged me to do even more study on the comparison of Deut/recap of first five books of OT (Law) with Revelation/recap of first five books of NT (grace and truth) and so I offer this booklet as a possible different perspective on the Book of Revelation.
Revelation is an oracle. A living word, quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword. First we see Jesus, eyes flaming fire, two-edged sword coming out of His mouth, stars in His hands and walking among the Lampstands. Many mysteries all finding their resolution in the revelation of the Logos, the "radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation(express image, icon) of His nature". Everything else flows from and returns to that revelation of Jesus....."for from Him and thru Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory forever".
And no one can pin down the mind of the Lord, but these verses really encourage me
I love Revelations 5:13, The Goal.... And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, to the ages of ages.
I love Revelations 21:5, The Guarantee....And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he says to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful.
I love Revelations 22:17, The Gift.... The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come;' and whoever hears, let him say, 'Come;' and let those who are thirsty come. Whoever will, let him take the Water of Life, without payment.
MAYBE: unbelievers will be destroyed.Temporary destroyed
they will Be destroyed after the judgment, after the last sins of humankind , it is a sign:it's the sign of having no glory in the eons, the NATURE of the eons is absence of glory
believers(all which believed and only them) will not be destroyed after the last sins of humanity: it's the sign that they are heirs of the glory of eons, they are heirs of the glory that christ got at the cross , they have an atome or more of glory in the eons: eons NATURE glory
why not ?
I think definitely the house of God are heirs to Christ's glory. And I do believe that unbelievers are to be destroyed, but I don't think physically so. Just as Jesus drank from a cup of man's wrath upon his flesh, he handed that cup to his disciples and they drank. And the world will drink of the full measure of God's wrath. The act of drinking signifies the actual target of God's wrath: not our outer flesh, but the flesh that resides within us. God is attacking the carnal mind, to bring it into a state of smoking rubble and thereby save us from it.
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (aionios zoe - the life of the age). 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned (krino - judged) already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation (krisis - judgment), (he is about to explain it to us in clear language) that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jesus Christ IS the Life. He IS the bread of life. Those who do not believe are already judged, and THIS is the judgment: "that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."
This....is...the...judgment (krisis): Men not coming to the light, hating the light, with evil works. The light, the WORD exposes it. The term "krisis" is the same word Jesus used to say to the Jews: "How will you escape the judgment (krisis) of Gehenna?" And James explains to us that Gehenna is the fire of our evil works. The TONGUE is a fire a world of iniquity which steers the ship into a furnace.
Men hating the light, doing evil: that IS the "krisis" (that is where we get the word "crisis") of Gehenna. It is not a physical destruction. It is a Prodigal Son, spiritual destruction so that they may find their cities burned and fall upon their knees for a savior to find strength him alone.
This is why we can speak in such plain, clear language as to what the judgment of the world is, and the Eternal Torment crowd WILL NOT accept it. Because they love their doctrines. They don't want their works to be rebuked, so they would rather stay in the darkness than come into the light...
That is why some of them actually do believe it, but will not come out and say it. They don't want everyone to see the nakedness in their works.
If UR is correct, what is the fate of the unbeliever upon death?
Father Instructed:
Deu 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
Rom 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Let us be honest, who would willingly choose to be blind?
Jesus told us:
Jhn 9:41
Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
The $69 question. Who has Spiritual eyes enough even now? We see but a glimmer of what is to come.
Luk 12:48
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
It is not about how much one cannot hear or see; nor is it about how much can be seen and heard, but the condition of ones heart. Of how bright our spiritual light is shining.
Paul said:
Eph 2:8, 9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.
There is NOTHING we have regarding Spiritual Understanding that is not a GIFT :HeartThrob: from Father. Like many gifts, they are not fully cherished because what possibly could we ever do to justify such a gift. Are we any "better" than any of those spiritually blinded by Father? No we are not, in fact, should we not be first in line to bare the punishment (whatever it is) on any who were deaf and blind right to the end?
Are we really ahead of anyone? Did Jesus put himself a head of the lowest person?
Mar 9:35
Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all."
Mar 10:31
But many who are first will be last, and the last first."
Luk 13:30
Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
In whose eyes are the last, first and the first last. It makes a huge difference, if one look through Fathers eyes.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Julie: :dsunny:
And I think the point Jesus is making is about the condition of those who don't believe. It's not so much what happens to the unbeliever AT death, but that the unbeliever IS dead. "Let the dead bury the dead, but you go and proclaim the Kingdom of God."
Quote from: Seth on November 15, 2013, 02:07:20 AM
And I think the point Jesus is making is about the condition of those who don't believe. It's not so much what happens to the unbeliever AT death, but that the unbeliever IS dead. "Let the dead bury the dead, but you go and proclaim the Kingdom of God."
The light of truth and love :HeartThrob: is life. A light that burns darkness is light in search of a spark.
Christianity as a whole will learn what the light of truth really is and it will be blinding in its brilliance. :dsunny:
Father will bring all into the light and all will see in time.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
If UR is correct, what is the fate of the unbeliever upon death?
I believe the Bible says they are awakened in the 2nd resurrection..
Where does it say no one can come to faith after resurrection?
Backing up a little, there will be folks who survive the 'end' of man's system of things and live on into the millennium.. I believe the Bible says as it talks of a person living to a very ripe age.. etc.. and many things about the milennium..
I don't find it that much of a stretch that the Day of Judgment is an age, during which those of the 2nd resurrection will come to faith.. will "believe".. which is what is required to have one's name written in the Book of Life..
As a matter of fact, if the first advent of Jesus fulfilled the ancient Hebrew Spring Holy Days.. why won't the (long) 2nd advent fulfill the Fall Holy Days? (The ancient ones of Lev 23, that is.)
Fall Holy Days - trumpets - day of atonement (doa) - tabernacles (rev 21)
Trumpets - 10 days later - day of atonement (doa) - 5 days later - tabernacles
trumpets-Jesus' return - 1000 yrs later - Day of review/Atonement - 500 yrs later - tabernacles (rev 21(6?)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Where are the verse which say after death, no more hope of believing?
Who can thwart God's will?
If the elect are simply elect through no reason or doing of their own.. then why would it take more stringent measures to bring the non elect to faith? if it's not dependent upon humans, in any way, but dependent only upon the will of God? Who can thwart God's will?
I believe the only reason there is the two 'classes' - 1st and 2nd resurrection, is because in a drama (truth proving drama) like in a movie, you need more than one character.
Jesus told the pharisees, unless you repent, you will die in your sins.. this is the only verse I can think of (besides all the erroneous 'hell' translations) where one might think no hope of coming to the faith/being saved, after death.
Of course, initially, to rise still in your sins is not as joyous an occasion as the 1st resurrection.. that's bad enough.. but why should the LOF they go through, be any different than the one we go through? of convincing, convicting and repentance.. and then transformation and purification..
To me, anyone being cast into the LOF is worst case scenario..
I recently realized the judgment day Daniel saw, and the one in Revelation is two separate ones.. check it out.. in Daniel it says "the books were opened"
also in rev.. what sort of judgment day is it when the stone (the builders rejected) not cut out by human hands smashes the ten toes and the whole statue/edifice of mankind's empires fall..
it's fiery judgment upon nations in the valley of armegeddon (same valley as gehenna? jerusalems' dump where criminals bodies were disposed?)
I've blabbered on enough.. night all.. and anyone.. have a great weekend, God bless! :smile:
oh, one more point.. the verse "anyone not believing" (name not written in the book of life) "will go to the LOF" is the very last verse of the chapter.. even following death and the grave are cast into the LOF-the second death/nonlife.. hooray, death and the grave.. nevermore.. nevermore..
:dsunny:
the 2nd ressurrection is the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked[tokogae/mix/death]
the first resurrection is of the spirit/Holy pure/sanctified...no mix of good/evil]
the camp of the Holy city God loves is the free spirit life/Holy spirit gift...which is given to
all men...the tokogae is of satan/sin's law death...the accusor of the brethern gets his power of
death from men partaking of the tokogae[natural/sin in flesh man/corrupt image]
those born of the spirit/holy/sanctified with new celestial body....2nd death has no hold
lof only harms satan and his demons...vessels fitted for destruction.......for God has
sanctified all men through His son...for the resurrection of all men are after His likeness
God created man for His holy spirit and likeness to dwell in..even to receive a new celestial
body. sanctification is set aside for God's purpose[Holy/pure] It has always been the
Father's will..to make man in our image and likeness[Holy pure sacred]
the camp f the Holy city is His Holiness/ sacred spirit..surrounded by sinful[evil spirit] sin's
law dwelling in men.
the resurrection of the righteous[men] and wicked[evil spirits] is the releasing of satan from
the abyss to go forth to his doom...as he plans to fight against the purposes and will of God
that man be raised up in His son's image...but God is with us, His favour and grace
to man will accomplish what is impossible with men..for by His spirit He shall raise up
man and clothe him in the best robe[immortal body] and God shall be ALL[no satan in man
dwelling as son of perdition/man of sin, to cut man off from God] in ALL[men]
God's heart,God's mind and God's body likeness will be the new creature..the immortal
new creature.man in God's likeness.
the milleneal reign is the Sabbath....rest for man....if a man fall in the ditch/abyss,satan
demons/legions.....take him over a precipice to drown in the sea....the sea will give
up their dead[men killed by satan/demons possessing their bodies/sins law]
the free gift of righteousness will welcome such prodigals home..and Holy/pure image
of Christ is the pattern of their resurrection....however the evil spirits shall come
up from the abyss to go forth[little leaven ferments whole lump] and possess other men
who still dwell in the flesh[camp] and though man die once in the appearance of sinful flesh
condemned..and appointed unto death...He shall bear the image and Likeness of Jesus Christ
...and the last enemy death be placed under his feet.......
for it is appointed unto men to die once.....but appointed unto satan and demons the LOF
....the twice dead...are evil spirits[bound in Noah's day under earth..til released to go forth
from their abyss to their eternal destruction]
whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven[satan bound to tthis earth] whatever you
loose on earth[man] is loosed in heaven....[freedom for the captives who through fear of death
where held captive to sin all their lives]