Prophecy

[Watch/Pray]

As always, I am so grateful to you Molly for the time, energy, enthusiasm you so graciously and generously share on this forum... the Scriptural support  of your convictions greatly edifies as well as provides me with Scriptures to study, to check out (Berean style)...to help me  connect dots in my own study of the end times...

I am interested... very interested in the "fire  that will come out of their mouths"...  since you are by your own admission a literalist... will there be actual fire?

[Molly]

As always, I am so grateful to you Molly for the time, energy, enthusiasm you so graciously and generously share on this forum... the Scriptural support  of your convictions greatly edifies as well as provides me with Scriptures to study, to check out (Berean style)...to help me  connect dots in my own study of the end times...

I am interested... very interested in the "fire  that will come out of their mouths"...  since you are by your own admission a literalist... will there be actual fire?

It will feel like fire to those hearing it.   You can see that happening on this very forum.

Will they see fire coming out of the mouths of the two witnesses?  I have no doubt all sorts of supernatural things will be happening.   This church will be very protected for the entire 3.5 years of the great Tribulation except as God may determine some need more purification through trials[Dan 11].

By the way, in my opinion it has already started, March 22, 2013.



29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

--Jer 23

[marie glen]

I've never understood what/who are the 2 witnesses.. not sure wat role believers will play. I go back and forth between Holy Ghost filled believers, gentile and natural Israel, and the final man of sin (singular & plural) making war with the saints and overcoming them.

I think the problem people have with the two witnesses is that everyone thinks they are only two people.  But they forget that Jesus sent his disciples out by twos because the Bible requires two witnesses for every matter.

:Chinscratch: Oh! that is very interesting to apply those verses! :mthumbsup

..about Rev 12 tho, i've come to see that as a whole history (one of four inserts which help hide the vision for a time).. Although, I often think Bible prophecy has many levels or fulfillments.. so I will definitely have to ponder the last 3 and 1/2 years scenario.. How I've seen it is after the crucifixion, the opposer and his angels were no longer allowed access to heaven, and in great wrath he again pursued the woman inquisitioning and persecuting her (1st time in 70a.d with the migration of the truth which occurred, largely to europe). But this time she is given the two wings of an eagle to migrate with.

I agree as I think the bowls are concurrent (I think the word is) as the 1st. Resurrection occurs, the going up, the bowls go down, like in 1?thess 5:7 (I think). He comes with His angels and fire.

Yes the 7th trumpet announces the day of the Lord.  As the trumpet begins to sound the resurrection and rapture happens, because we are not appointed to wrath,  followed by the day of the Lord, the beginning of the judgment on the world,  and the bowls of the wrath of God are poured out upon the world.  Take a look at this: the bowls of wrath are poured out during the ten days between the feast of Trumpets and the holiest day of the Jewish year, the day of Atonement.

I absolutely agree that the sounding of the trumpet (7th & last, otherwise there would be more than 7) is the return of Jesus, the 1st resurrection, and the catching away - Mt 24:29-31 "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. shall they see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven.. He shall send out His angels to gather His elect from all corners of the world"

And the verse I was thinking of (while texting via mobile) isn't 1 thess 5:7, but is 2 thess 1:7 and 8 "..when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire.." is one reason why I think the bowls which are in the 7th trump, occur pretty much simultaneously as likely (resumed) atomic warfare..

Why is it that you think the bowls of wrath are poured out during the ten days between the feast of Trumpets and the holiest day of the Jewish year, the day of Atonement? I do lean toward thinking things will occur during those Autumn Holy Days.. (and also think they prophecy and will be fulfilled by Jesus' (long) 2nd advent, with Day of 'Judgment' becoming (surprise!) Day of Atonement, when many will realize the truth of their salvation / reconciliation). Why you see the bowls of wrath as poured out during the ten days between Trumpets and Atonement, may be previous in the thread and I haven't read it yet  :ghaha: but I'm interested in the idea..

[Molly]

Why is it that you think the bowls of wrath are poured out during the ten days between the feast of Trumpets and the holiest day of the Jewish year, the day of Atonement?

Because, long story short, the ten days between the Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement [when the high priest comes out of the holy of holies and declares the people have been forgiven their sins for the past year] are called the days of Awe, and during this time we are supposed to be judging ourselves in preparation for the day of Atonement.

We see the saints in heaven at this time standing on the sea of glass, which is the sea of brass that the priests would stand before [the laver] and look at their reflection to see if anything is out of place, not perfect, judge their appearance,  before they go before the LORD.   So this is symbolic of judging ourselves to make ourselves worthy.   While the saints in heaven are judging themselves, the 7 angels are pouring judgment upon the earth in the form of the 7 bowls of the wrath of God.  Finally, on the day of Atonement the High Priest [Jesus] comes out of the holy of holies and announces, It is finished.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

--Rev 16

[Molly]

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

--Mat 28




And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; [Mark 6:7




And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. (Revelation 11:3-4)

[Deena]

Molly, why do you think the 3.5 years began on March 22?

[Molly]

Deena,


I have been putting studies on this thread, in particular two youtubes recently, which I feel, out of all the things that I have looked at, most accurately describe the timing of Bible prophecy using the many parameters that are at our fingertips today.  These agree with each other, although worked out by different people, on a date for the return of Christ that is supported by signs in the sky, by feasts,  by a Jewish jubilee, by scripture describing the Jewish state, by the book of Daniel, and the book of Revelation.  These are long studies, but I decided well worth watching. so I put them up here.  Just counting backwards from that date, using the days given in Daniel, they arrived at Mar 22, 2013 as the beginning of the last 3.5 years before the return of Christ.  Now, I realize that it seems not much happened that day or that week, but on the contrary, many remarkable things happened, imo, many of them unnoticed by the world.  Some have already been mentioned in this thread.  All of the scriptures in play right now have been discussed at length in this thread:

Psalm 83
Zechariah 12
1Thess 5:2
Isa 17:1
Eze 38
Isa 19
Daniel 9:27

If this is true, what is surprising to me is how quietly it all is playing out--so quietly that if I weren't looking for it, I would miss it.  Of course, some would argue that it is quiet because the timing is wrong, and nothing is happening lol, and that's ok, too.   But, for me, God has told us to watch for a reason--these things might only be revealed, at least at first, to those who are watching and reading scripture, and looking to compare the world with the description in prophecy.   It is going to be all about Israel and the middle east.  Watch Israel.

Here is an interesting youtube where a pastor is discussing the events of that week and how they fit into prophecy.   I do not agree with his 'timing' conclusions at the end, obviously, but he touches on many of the important highlights relevant to scripture that are now upon us.  Also, if you are really interested, go back and spend some time watching those long youtube studies



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFknR0GTciE

[Deena]

Thanks for your reply. I read this prophecy thread from time to time, but most of it is beyond my understanding. I hope you are correct and the countdown is short. Come Jesus, quickly.

[Watch/Pray]

As always, I am so grateful to you Molly for the time, energy, enthusiasm you so graciously and generously share on this forum... the Scriptural support  of your convictions greatly edifies as well as provides me with Scriptures to study, to check out (Berean style)...to help me  connect dots in my own study of the end times...

I am interested... very interested in the "fire  that will come out of their mouths"...  since you are by your own admission a literalist... will there be actual fire?

It will feel like fire to those hearing it.   You can see that happening on this very forum.

Will they see fire coming out of the mouths of the two witnesses?  I have no doubt all sorts of supernatural things will be happening.   This church will be very protected for the entire 3.5 years of the great Tribulation except as God may determine some need more purification through trials[Dan 11].

By the way, in my opinion it has already started, March 22, 2013.



29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

--Jer 23

Thanks Molly for the quick reply.  I needed some time to consider your BTW  March 22, 2013 especially as it was such a great day for me...  God delivered me of one of my "besetting" sins...one that I have tried to overcome, prayed about for almost eight years... finally, I just simply told God "I can't stand this deep, deep anger anymore, please take it."  He did!  I have a huge calendar on the wall beside my desk, computer, etc., on which I scribble important reminders  "Water all the plants, check the freezer for out of date items, email Vi (my youngest sister)" etc., etc.,  when I read your reply and saw March 22...  I immediately looked at my calendar and saw scribbled in huge letters FREE!  This morning I was reminded through Deena's question that I should share the importance of March 22, 2013 to me personally...   I'm so grateful that you continue to keep end times before us...
reminds me of Eph 5:16  Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.  I'm also reminded that I fall short of what the Lord has called me to do during these days of evil-->  Intercessory prayer.

[Molly]

Thanks Molly for the quick reply.  I needed some time to consider your BTW  March 22, 2013 especially as it was such a great day for me...  God delivered me of one of my "besetting" sins...one that I have tried to overcome, prayed about for almost eight years... finally, I just simply told God "I can't stand this deep, deep anger anymore, please take it."  He did!  I have a huge calendar on the wall beside my desk, computer, etc., on which I scribble important reminders  "Water all the plants, check the freezer for out of date items, email Vi (my youngest sister)" etc., etc.,  when I read your reply and saw March 22...  I immediately looked at my calendar and saw scribbled in huge letters FREE! This morning I was reminded through Deena's question that I should share the importance of March 22, 2013 to me personally...   I'm so grateful that you continue to keep end times before us...
reminds me of Eph 5:16  Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.  I'm also reminded that I fall short of what the Lord has called me to do during these days of evil-->  Intercessory prayer.

I have been thinking about your post since I read it, Anna, and I've realized why it has shaken me so.  As you know, I have been thinking about the two witnesses being a troop of people, maybe in every country of the world,  who will witness as forerunners to the return of Christ the way John the Baptist did the first time around.  The more I think about it, the more I can see them having a similar ministry to Jesus 3 years,-- healing, performing miracles, feeding the multitude, announcing the return of the Lord, calling to the last chosen ones to enter the ark, convicting the world of sin.

They will be given the spirit without measure, the way Jesus was, an unending supply of it through the olive branches  which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves[Zech 4].  This is the tree of God with the sap running high.  Anyway, their ministry is supposed to be during the great Tribulation, and therefore preparations for it, at least, would also have had to begin on March 22, so when I saw your word, FREE!, I just about flipped out because these will be the first to enter into the glorious freedom of the sons of God.






For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

--Mal 4





19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:  [2 Peter 1]




26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

--Rev 2

[Molly]

The Book of Daniel mentions the 'Rapture'


And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

--Dan 12




The great tribulation, or Jacob's trouble:   



and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time  --Dan 12:1



Jesus quotes this:   



21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24


The rapture:

and at that time thy people shall be delivered,every one that shall be found written in the book.  [Dan 12:1]



"delivered"

H4422
מלט
mâlaṭ
maw-lat'
A primitive root; properly to be smooth, that is, (by implication) to escape (as if by slipperiness); causativelyto release or rescue; specifically to bring forth young, emit sparks: - deliver (self), escape, lay, leap out, let alone, let go, preserve, save, X speedily, X surely.


The Jews will also be part of the first resurrection:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.  Dan 12:2

The word everlasting is, of course, olam.

I wonder about that word, 'contempt.'    I am thinking that these will not receive glorified bodies, but will enter the Millenium  among the very long lived humans who will live on earth at that time.  I am also thinking there might be some Christians among this group, as well as good people from other cultures and religions.  [Why Christians?  This verse: But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!  Rev 3:16]


The word, shame in Dan 12:2, seems likewise to be a reference to human nakedness.  We see this concept also in the New Testament [perhaps likewise referring to a carnal or physical, but long lived, body].


15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.  Rev 16


These will have another Age to 'get it right.'

He is the God of second chances!

http://bible.org/seriespage/god-second-chances-joshua-101-28

[Molly]

By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter.  [Heb 11:24]


[Acts 7:23 "When Moses was forty years old, he decided to visit his own people, the Israelites.]


He chose to share the oppression of God's people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. [Heb 11:25]


[Acts 7:34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.']



He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. [Heb 11:26]



[1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.]

[eaglesway]

The Book of Daniel mentions the 'Rapture'


And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

--Dan 12




The great tribulation, or Jacob's trouble:   



and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time  --Dan 12:1



Jesus quotes this:   



21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24


The rapture:

and at that time thy people shall be delivered,every one that shall be found written in the book.  [Dan 12:1]



"delivered"

H4422
מלט
mâlaṭ
maw-lat'
A primitive root; properly to be smooth, that is, (by implication) to escape (as if by slipperiness); causativelyto release or rescue; specifically to bring forth young, emit sparks: - deliver (self), escape, lay, leap out, let alone, let go, preserve, save, X speedily, X surely.


The Jews will also be part of the first resurrection:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.  Dan 12:2

The word everlasting is, of course, olam.

I wonder about that word, 'contempt.'    I am thinking that these will not receive glorified bodies, but will enter the Millenium  among the very long lived humans who will live on earth at that time.  I am also thinking there might be some Christians among this group, as well as good people from other cultures and religions.  [Why Christians?  This verse: But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!  Rev 3:16]


The word, shame in Dan 12:2, seems likewise to be a reference to human nakedness.  We see this concept also in the New Testament [perhaps likewise referring to a carnal or physical, but long lived, body].


15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.  Rev 16


These will have another Age to 'get it right.'

He is the God of second chances!

http://bible.org/seriespage/god-second-chances-joshua-101-28

Another viewpoint

The resurrection referred to in Daniel is not (imo) the first resurrection because it involves both those resurrected to glory and those resurrected to shame. This is the second resurrection, which involves judgment. The first resurrection is for the overcomers of all the ages and only involves reward.

That their will be a time of great tribulation is certain. That the people of God will be rescued out of it I believe as well, but not by a "rapture"- because "the dead in Christ rise first, at the last trumpet, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye".

Paul says not to be fooled. We will by no means precede the dead- they will precede us.

Jesus says, "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" He will send forth His angels to gather His elect with the archangel shout and the trumpet sound.

There can only be ONE  first resurrection, or it isnt the first- and Paul tells us it occurs at the second coming of Christ. There is only ONE second coming of Christ, or there would have to be a third and a fourth(spoken of nowhere).

The dead in Christ rise first and we who remain alive will be caught up to meet them in the clouds and thus shall we ever be with the Lord. This catching away, which has become known as the rapture, occurs at the second coming of Christ, along with the first resurrection.

I think the Lord has another rescue in mind.

He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the LORD, "My refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust!" For it is He who delivers you from the snare of the trapper And from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with His pinions, And under His wings you may seek refuge; His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark. You will not be afraid of the terror by night, Or of the arrow that flies by day; Of the pestilence that stalks in darkness, Or of the destruction that lays waste at noon. A thousand may fall at your side And ten thousand at your right hand, But it shall not approach you. You will only look on with your eyes And see the recompense of the wicked. For you have made the LORD, my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place. No evil will befall you, Nor will any plague come near your tent. For He will give His angels charge concerning you, To guard you in all your ways. They will bear you up in their hands, That you do not strike your foot against a stone. You will tread upon the lion and cobra, The young lion and the serpent you will trample down. "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him; I will set him securely on high, because he has known My name. "He will call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will rescue him and honor him. "With a long life I will satisfy him And let him see My salvation."
(Psa 91:1-16)

Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
(Rev 12:6)

Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course. For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.
(Isa 26:20-21)


These are the days when we ought to listen....

Today if you hear His voice....

Let the one who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches....

Like I said, just another viewpoint :o)

"But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.' "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
(Mat 25:6-10)

"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
(Luk 17:26-27)

The ark is the secret place of the most high.

Behold, we heard of it in Ephrathah, We found it in the field of Jaar. Let us go into His dwelling place; Let us worship at His footstool. Arise, O LORD, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. Let Your priests be clothed with righteousness, And let Your godly ones sing for joy. For the sake of David Your servant, Do not turn away the face of Your anointed. The LORD has sworn to David A truth from which He will not turn back: "Of the fruit of your body I will set upon your throne. "If your sons will keep My covenant And My testimony which I will teach them, Their sons also shall sit upon your throne forever." For the LORD has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His habitation. "This is My dwelling place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
(Psa 132:6-14)

[Molly]

Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
(Rev 12:6)

Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course. For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.
(Isa 26:20-21)

This is Jews [the woman] and Christians during the great tribulation and before the return of Christ, imo.    It says the LORD is about to come out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth--it hasn't happened yet.  During the great tribulation, 2/3's of the Jews will die, and a remnant will be protected through the tribulation in a place prepared for her in the wilderness.  But, Daniel is talking about the dead rising and the Jews who are written in the book being 'delivered' on the return of Christ [Michael]--that sounds to me like the same rapture the Christians will be experiencing.

The great Tribulation is also known as Jacob's trouble and will be a very difficult time for the Jews.

The resurrection referred to in Daniel is not (imo) the first resurrection because it involves both those resurrected to glory and those resurrected to shame. This is the second resurrection, which involves judgment. The first resurrection is for the overcomers of all the ages and only involves reward.

I'm arguing this is not the case.  The parable of the ten virgins, only 5 go into the marriage room with Christ.  He says to the rest, I do not know you.  In Revelation, we are told Christ will spit the lukewarm out of his mouth.  We are also told some Christians will be found 'naked.'   These do not receive glorified bodies, imo.  The same is true of some Jews who are resurrected in the first resurrection to contempt and shame.  So, with both the Jews and the Christians, it is saying many will receive a glorified body and some will not.  Since we know the millenium will contain very long lived humans, those who are not glorified at the return of Christ will join these long lived humans going into the 1000 year reign of Christ.

What this is doing is equalizing the Jews and the Christians in terms of their fate, since Jews, even today, but particularly before the last 2000 years, can know Christ through the Old Testament alone.  He is the Holy One of Israel, their Redeemer.   Jews and Christians are both God's chosen people.

[Molly]

And then the sign of The Son of Man in Heaven will appear and then all the families of the earth will mourn, and they will see The Son of Man who comes on the clouds of Heaven with miracles and many praises.  Mat 24:30


This says all the families on earth will mourn.   We know that we won't mourn.  If we were on earth, we would be jumping for joy.  But, we won't be on earth, we will be going up to meet him in the air.



Revelation 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

Again, all the peoples on the earth will mourn, even those who pierced him.   But, those who pierced him are long dead.   This means these Jews will be on earth at the first resurrection seeing just what he told them they would see--him coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory.

[lomarah]

We have all pierced Him.

[Molly]

We have all pierced Him.

will you mourn when you see him coming in the clouds?

It says, 'even those who pierced him.'   So that is not everyone.  That's referring to a specific group.

[Molly]

60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.

--Mark 14

[marie glen]

I think God sees and sometimes describes things as a whole, or as its main peaks.. to God, I'm not sure He sees the 2 resurrections as having a 'long' gap between, or describes.. like with the 2 advents of Jesus, so often prophesied in one breath, and also like prophecy with its 'immediate' fulfillment and it's 'end' days or climax fulfillment. Just my  :2c:

[lomarah]

We have all pierced Him.

will you mourn when you see him coming in the clouds?

It says, 'even those who pierced him.'   So that is not everyone.  That's referring to a specific group.

Yes, I have already and have much more to mourn. I have pierced Him many many times. I know that we differ on these things Molly and I am not trying to argue and I certainly don't know much. But I am sure that whatever happens literally, these things are happening and have been happening in the Spirit for thousands of years. Note that Jesus told His disciples they would not pass away before they saw Him coming on the clouds.

As an interesting aside, Cardinal told me that one of the words for dust is also the same for clouds. Kinda cool!

[Molly]

We have all pierced Him.

will you mourn when you see him coming in the clouds?

It says, 'even those who pierced him.'   So that is not everyone.  That's referring to a specific group.

Yes, I have already and have much more to mourn. I have pierced Him many many times. I know that we differ on these things Molly and I am not trying to argue and I certainly don't know much. But I am sure that whatever happens literally, these things are happening and have been happening in the Spirit for thousands of years. Note that Jesus told His disciples they would not pass away before they saw Him coming on the clouds.

As an interesting aside, Cardinal told me that one of the words for dust is also the same for clouds. Kinda cool!

Ok.  I'm not really trying to elicit your feelings about it I guess.  I'm trying to read the text and fit it all together in a consistent way.  Jesus tells the high priest that he will see Jesus coming on the clouds in power and great glory.   How will that happen unless the high priest is resurrected in the first resurrection and standing on earth when he returns?   Also, at that time, we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, but if there is any time before that, I know I will be rejoicing, not mourning.   

Mind you, the High priest understood what Jesus was saying there.  Jesus was saying he was the cloud rider of the Old Testament who is the Son of God.  That's why he accused him of blasphemy.  Jesus was telling him that he was God.

I do not see where Jesus tells his disciples they would not pass away before they saw him coming on the clouds.  That means he would be mistaken or he would be lying to them, because that did not happen.   I see Jesus in Mathew 24 and Luke 21 giving them signs of the end, and telling them the generation that is alive when these signs happen will not pass away before they see him coming on clouds--and that's us!

  These signs are birth pangs.  At what other time in history would we be aware of earthquakes, famine, war, rumors of war, and so on other than this time in history where we have world wide news instantly communicated to us?

But, anyway....the meaning of scripture can turn on one word, it's worth it to keep reading it until it all makes sense to us.

[lomarah]

He wasn't lying or mistaken! These things are happening in the Spirit!! It's incredibly exciting... the kingdom is within! 

[Molly]

He wasn't lying or mistaken! These things are happening in the Spirit!! It's incredibly exciting... the kingdom is within!

You mean he is coming on the clouds only in spirit?  Not in real life?

Then how does every eye of every non believer see him in spirit?

[eaglesway]

IMO, Every eye from the lowest in Sheol to the highest heaven will see Him because the veil will be rent.

The sign of the son of man will appear in the heavens and the veil of the heavens will be rent.

"Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the people."

IMO, We are that mountain.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN." This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(Heb 12:22-27)

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
(2Pe 3:7-12)

To me, As marie glen alluded too also, There is a sense of time transcendent events that occur when we die- the THIEF IS DEATH. No man knows the day or the hour. WE WILL ALL AWAKE IN THE MOMENT IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE. We are children of light, THE DAY DOeS NOT TAKe US LIKe A THief- if we are on the alert, that is, oil in vessels and the wick trimmed within our lamp.

Historically, it will occur for the overcomers of all the ages at the second coming. For everyone else, at the great white throne, at the end of the millenial age(imo).


The shaking and the fire are the same, when it is done there will be nothing left that can be shaken, death will be dead, God will be all in all, and all will be in the love of God. THe DAY IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS. Peter is giving us a clue, imo.

The foolish virgins are being shut out now. They do not have enough oil in their lamps to follow the path out(come out of her my people) and enter the wedding supper(union of the Bride and the Lamb).

The Bride, the city of God, heavenly Jerusalem and Zion are "coming down out of the heavens" (being revealed among men as the instrument of deliverance for the world- and the dwelling place of God),but only those who are "watching"and "on the alert" can here the word of the Lord.......

"THE BRIDEGROOM IS COMING"

The woman in rev 12 is "clothed with the sun"(the Spirit and the Bride say Come)- she is standing on the moon(reflected glory of law/Israel). She is giving birth to a manchild....

Until we all attain to a unity of faith(gestation), unto a mature man(manchild), unto the measure of the stature of the son of God, so that we will no longer be like children, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by the deceitful scheming of men(dragon)



IMO, All consciousness will see the coming of the Son of God. It will be the beginning of a thousand year DAY,at the end of which every thing that can be shaken will have been shaken- only that which cannot be shaken will remain.

[Molly]

wow!  Beautiful, Eaglesway!   :banana: :banana: