Egypt [king of the south] fell into the hands of the Muslim brotherhood today. Rally for new President: Our capital shall be... Jerusalem, Allah willing. Our cry shall be 'Millions of martyrs march toward Jerusalem.'
http://rabbilive.com/RabbiLIVE/Home.html
Where's my prophecy thread?
Egypt under Rome and Byzantium, 30 B.C.-A.D. 640
With the establishment of Roman rule by Emperor Augustus in 30 B.C., more than six centuries of Roman and Byzantine control began. Egypt again became the province of an empire, as it had been under the Persians and briefly under Alexander. As the principal source of the grain supply for Rome, it came under the direct control of the emperor in his capacity as supreme military chief, and a strong force was garrisoned there. Gradually, Latin replaced Greek as the language of higher administration. In 212 Rome gave the Egyptians citizenship in the empire.
The emperor ruled as successor to the Ptolemies with the title of "Pharaoh, Lord of the Two Lands," and the conventional divine attributes assigned to Egyptian kings were attributed to him. Rome was careful, however, to bring the native priesthood under its control, although guaranteeing traditional priestly rights and privileges.
Augustus and his successors continued the tradition of building temples to the local gods on which the rulers and the gods were depicted in the Egyptian manner. The Romans completed the construction of an architectural jewel, the Temple of Isis on Philae Island (Jazirat Filah), which was begun under the Ptolemies. A new artistic development during this period was the painting of portraits on wood, an art that originated in the Fayyum region. These portraits were placed on the coffins of mummies.
The general pattern of Roman Egypt included a strong, centralized administration supported by a military force large enough to guarantee internal order and to provide security against marauding nomads. There was an elaborate bureaucracy with an extended system of registers and controls, and a social hierarchy based on caste and privilege with preferred treatment for the Hellenized population of the towns over the rural and native Egyptian population. The best land continued to form the royal domain.
The empire that Rome established was wider, more enduring, and better administered than any the Mediterranean world had known. For centuries, it provided an ease of communication and a unity of culture throughout the empire that would not be seen again until modern times. In Western Europe, Rome founded a tradition of public order and municipal government that outlasted the empire itself. In the East, however, where Rome came into contact with older and more advanced civilizations, Roman rule was less successful.
The story of Roman Egypt is a sad record of shortsighted exploitation leading to economic and social decline. Like the Ptolemies, Rome treated Egypt as a mere estate to be exploited for the benefit of the rulers. But however incompetently some of the later Ptolemies managed their estate, much of the wealth they derived from it remained in the country itself. Rome, however, was an absentee landlord, and a large part of the grain delivered as rent by the royal tenants or as tax by the landowners as well as the numerous money-taxes were sent to Rome and represented a complete loss to Egypt.
The history of Egypt in this period cannot be separated from the history of the Roman Empire. Thus, Egypt was affected by the spread of Christianity in the empire in the first century A.D. and by the decline of the empire during the third century A.D. Christianity arrived early in Egypt, and the new religion quickly spread from Alexandria into the hinterland, reaching Upper Egypt by the second century. According to some Christian traditions, St. Mark brought Christianity to Egypt in A.D. 37, and the church in Alexandria was founded in A.D. 40. The Egyptian Christians are called Copts, a word derived from the Greek word for the country, Aegyptos. In the Coptic language, the Copts also called themselves "people of Egypt." Thus the word Copt originally implied nationality rather than religion.
In the third century A.D., the decay of the empire gradually affected the Roman administration of Egypt. Roman bureaucracy became overcentralized and poorly managed. The number of qualified applicants for administrative positions was seriously reduced by Roman civil war, pestilence, and conflict among claimants to imperial power.
A renaissance of imperial authority and effectiveness took place under Emperor Diocletian. During his reign (284-305), the partition of the Roman Empire into eastern and western segments began. Diocletian inaugurated drastic political and fiscal reforms and sought to simplify imperial administration. Under Diocletian, the administrative unity of Egypt was destroyed by transforming Egypt from one province into three. Seeing Christianity as a threat to Roman state religion and thus to the unity of the empire, Diocletian launched a violent persecution of Christians.
The Egyptian church was particularly affected by the Roman persecutions, beginning with Septimius Severus's edict of 202 dissolving the influential Christian School of Alexandria and forbidding future conversions to Christianity. In 303 Emperor Diocletian issued a decree ordering all churches demolished, all sacred books burned, and all Christians who were not officials made slaves. The decree was carried out for three years, a period known as the "Era of Martyrs." The lives of many Egyptian Christians were spared only because more workers were needed in the porphyry quarries and emerald mines that were worked by Egyptian Christians as "convict labor."
Emperor Constantine I (324-337) ruled both the eastern and western parts of the empire. In 330 he established his capital at Byzantium, which he renamed Constantinople (present-day Istanbul). Egypt was governed from Constantinople as part of the Byzantine Empire. In 312 Constantine established Christianity as the official religion of the empire, and his Edict of Milan of 313 established freedom of worship.
By the middle of the fourth century, Egypt was largely a Christian country. In 324 the ecumenical Council of Nicea established the patriarchate of Alexandria as second only to that of Rome; its jurisdiction extended over Egypt and Libya. The patriarchate had a profound influence on the early development of the Christian church because it helped to clarify belief and to formulate dogmas. In 333 the number of Egyptian bishops was estimated at nearly 100.
After the fall of Rome, the Byzantine Empire became the center of both political and religious power. The political and religious conflict between the Copts of Egypt and the rulers of Byzantium began when the patriarchate of Constantinople began to rival that of Alexandria. The Council of Chalcedon in 451 initiated the great schism that separated the Egyptian Church from Catholic Christendom. The schism had momentous consequences for the future of Christianity in the East and for Byzantine power. Ostensibly, the council was called to decide on the nature of Christ. If Christ were both God and man, had he two natures? The Arians had already been declared heretics for denying or minimizing the divinity of Christ; the opposite was to ignore or minimize his humanity. Coptic Christians were Monophysites who believed that after the incarnation Christ had but one nature with dual aspects. The council, however, declared that Christ had two natures and that he was equally human and equally divine. The Coptic Church refused to accept the council's decree and rejected the bishop sent to Egypt. Henceforth, the Coptic Church was in schism from the Catholic Church as represented by the Byzantine Empire and the Byzantine Church.
For nearly two centuries, Monophysitism in Egypt became the symbol of national and religious resistance to Byzantium's political and religious authority. The Egyptian Church was severely persecuted by Byzantium. Churches were closed, and Coptic Christians were killed, tortured, and exiled in an effort to force the Egyptian Church to accept Byzantine orthodoxy. The Coptic Church continued to appoint its own patriarchs, refusing to accept those chosen by Constantinople and attempting to depose them. The break with Catholicism in the fifth century converted the Coptic Church to a national church with deeply rooted traditions that have remained unchanged to this day.
By the seventh century, the religious persecutions and the growing pressure of taxation had engendered great hatred of the Byzantines. As a result, the Egyptians offered little resistance to the conquering armies of Islam.
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Source: U.S. Library of Congress
http://countrystudies.us/egypt/14.htm
Ankara says Damascus 'should pay' for attack
ANKARA - Hürriyet Daily News
Damascus needs to 'pay' for an attack on a Turkish military jet in international waters amid growing world pressure for action against Syria
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ankara-says-damascus-should-pay-for-attack.aspx?pageID=238&nID=23953&NewsCatID=338
Isaiah 17
The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
Firebombing is a bombing technique designed to damage a target, generally an urban area, through the use of fire, caused by incendiary devices, rather than from the blast effect of large bombs.
--wiki
The firebombing of Dresden in 1945 targeted civilians in a genocidal attack on German civilians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqukS2ClMs0&feature=related
A firestorm is a conflagration which attains such intensity that it creates and sustains its own wind system.
A firestorm is created as a result of the stack effect as the heat of the original fire draws in more and more of the surrounding air. This draft can be quickly increased if a low level jet stream exists over or near the fire. As the updraft mushrooms, strong gusty winds develop around the fire, directed inward which supply the fire with additional air. This would seem to prevent the firestorm from spreading on the wind, but the tremendous turbulence also created causes the strong surface inflow winds to change direction erratically. This wind shear is capable of producing small tornado- or dust devil-like circulations called fire whirls which can also dart around erratically, damage or destroy houses and buildings, and quickly spread the fire to areas outside the central area of the fire. A firestorm may also develop into a mesocyclone and induce true tornadoes.[1]
The greater draft of a firestorm draws in greater quantities of oxygen, which significantly increases combustion, thereby also substantially increasing the production of heat. The intense heat of a firestorm manifests largely as radiated heat (infrared radiation) which ignites flammable material at a distance ahead of the fire itself. This also serves to expand the area and the intensity of the firestorm. Violent, erratic wind drafts suck movables into the fire, while people and animals caught close or under the fire die for lack of available oxygen. Radiated heat from the fire can melt asphalt, metal, and glass, and turn street tarmac into flammable hot liquid. The very high temperatures replicate the conditions of a smelting furnace, where anything that might possibly burn does so readily, until the firestorm runs out of fuel.
--wiki
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
--Micah 6:8
Here is a list of some of the major Biblical last days' trends – all of which are in place
today:
1) Wide-spread deception in Christ's name (Matthew 24:4-5; 11; 24-26; 2
Thessalonians 2; 2 Peter 2:1-3; etc.)
2) Global communications foreseen (Revelation 11:9-10; 17:8).
3) A global cry for peace (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
4) Chaotic weather prevalent (Luke 21:25-26).
5) A move toward a global government (Daniel 2:40-44; 7:23; Revelation 13:7-8).
6) Technology capable of tracking the world's population (Revelation 13:16-17).
7) Israel regathered into their nation after being dispersed for nearly two millennia
(Isaiah 11:11-12; 43:5-6; 66:8; Jeremiah 31:7-10; Ezekiel 37:21-22; 38:8).
8) Jerusalem a burdensome stone to all nations (Zechariah 12:2-3).
9) Israel prospering economically (Ezekiel 38:12-13).
10) Preparations to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 9:27; 12:11; Mark 13:14;
Revelation 11:1-2).
11) Russia, Iran and other countries rising as military powers and preparing a
surprise attack on Israel (Ezekiel 38).
12) Anti-Semitism worldwide increasing (Deuteronomy 28:37; Jeremiah 29:18; 44:8).
13) Homosexuality flaunted (Luke 17:28-30; Genesis 19; Jude 1:7).
14) A move toward a global religion (Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17).
15) Lawlessness abounding (Matthew 24:12; Revelation 9:21).
16) Babylon reemerging on the world scene (Zechariah 5:11; Isaiah 13; Revelation
17-19).
17) Increased interest in the occult, witchcraft, and sorceries (Revelation 9:21; 18:23;
21:8; Isaiah 47:9-15; Micah 5:10-15).
18) The kings of the East rising (Revelation 9:14-16; 16:12).
http://www.eternal-productions.org/PDFS/The%20Quickening.pdf
Perilous Times
2 Timothy 3 —
1A. The Crisis In The Last Days, 2 Tim 3:1-9
1B. Abandonment of LOVE for God
1C. Love self
2C. Love money
3C. Love pleasure
2B. Abandonment of SUBMISSION to God
1C. Boastful
2C. Overbearing
3C. Blasphemous
4C. Disobedient
3B. Abandonment of RESPECT for God
1C. Unthankful
2C. Unholy
3C. Unloving
4C. Unforgiving
4B. Abandonment of RESTRAINT of evil
1 C.Undisciplined
2C. Violent
3C. Defiant
4C. Traitors
5C. Headstrong
6C. Haughty
5B. Abandonment of genuine SPIRITUALITY
1C. Immoral, Verse 6
2C. Unteachable, Verses 7-9
2A. The Opportunity In The Last Days
1B. Stay the COURSE, 3:10-17
2B. PREACH the Word, 4:1-8
3B. Stick TOGETHER, 4:9-18
http://www.thesermonexchange.org/downloads/New%20Testament%20Sermons/II%20Timothy/07%20Perilous%20Times.pdf
This website argues that the fourth kingdom in Nebuchadnezzar's dream [Daniel 2] is not Rome but the Ottoman Empire. This is the empire the Lord will smash [the stone cut without hands] when he returns.
http://endtime.ichthus.info/04/chap02.html
Zech 14: 1 The day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
--Rev 17
At the end of the war, the Allies occupied İstanbul and the Ottoman government collapsed. The Treaty of Sèvres, a plan designed by the Allies to dismember the remaining Ottoman territories, was signed on August 10, 1920, though never ratified by the Sultan.
The Lausanne Treaty formally acknowledged the new League of Nations mandates in the Middle East, the cession of their territories on the Arabian Peninsula, and British sovereignty over Cyprus. The League of Nations granted Class A mandates for the French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon and British Mandate of Mesopotamia and Palestine, the later comprising two autonomous regions: Mandate Palestine and Transjordan). Parts of the Ottoman Empire on the Arabian Peninsula became part of what is today Saudi Arabia and Yemen. The dissolution of the Ottoman Empire became a pivotal milestone in the creation of the modern Middle East, the result of which bore witness to the creation of new conflicts and hostilities in the region.--Wikipedia
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition
--Rev 17
Five are fallen--Egyptian, Assyria, Babylonian, Persian, Greece
One is, the sixth--Roman
The other is not yet come, the seventh--Ottoman
This one is the beast that was [the seventh], and is not, and is the eighth--Ottoman
'Revival of the Ottoman Empire and Bible Prophecy'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGi3h50JLdE
Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
"pale"
G5515
χλωρός
chlōros
khlo-ros'
From the same as G5514; greenish, that is, verdant, dun-colored: - green, pale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kba7Qv5oAKU
The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.
--Luke 19:43
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
--Luke 21:20
There is just something about the spirit relating to Rapture doctrine that reminds me of a horror movie. Its adherents seem to be obsessed with evil. The words over and over are of terror and torment, Satanic influences, wickedness and evil events. This world is not the devil's world. It has never belonged to him and it never will. The saints are going to take over, not the wicked. The saints are going to stay. The wicked will be removed. I have a strong desire that you would read Bill Britton's booklet, "A Closer Look at the Rapture." http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/bill-britton/closer-look-at-rapture/
(http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/bill-britton/closer-look-at-rapture/)
Quote from: ReformerThe saints are going to take over, not the wicked. The saints are going to stay. The wicked will be removed
I agree!
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
--Dan 2
Muslim Against Muslim: Syria's Secret Civil War
By Chris Mitchell
CBN News Middle East Bureau Chief
Saturday, July 14, 2012
JERUSALEM, Israel -- The conflict between Muslims in Syria is a civil war you aren't hearing about and the most brutal battle in the world right now.
Grainy cell phone video, brutal fighting, Islamic shouts, and failed negotiations mark the 17-month long Syrian uprising.
"What is happening in Syria is that [President] Bashar Assad and his Alawite elite are fighting a war of self-survival, self-preservation against what is essentially a Sunni revolt against them," Dore Gold, director of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, told CBN News.
This revolt pits Sunni against Shiite.
"The strategic fault line of conflict in the region [is] between the Iran-led regional block on the one hand and, I would say, the Sunni block -- the Sunni group of states, including Saudi Arabia," Gold said.
Jonathan Spyer, a senior research fellow at the Global Research in International Affairs Center, told CBN News "that fault line right now is running through Syria."
The line splits the Middle East into two large Islamic camps. The larger one includes the Sunni nations of Egypt, Turkey, the Gulf States -- and the epicenter of Sunni Islam, Saudi Arabia.
Iran leads the Shiite Islam group, which includes its proxy, Hezbollah, in Lebanon and Syria.
While Assad and much of his regime technically belong to a sect called Alawite, they align themselves with Shiite Islam.
So with both groups calling themselves Muslims, why do they fight each other? The answer goes back to the beginning of Islam.
"The Shiites believe that Islam should have been led from the very beginning by a caliph who came from the family of the prophet himself, in fact from the family of the cousin of the prophet called Ali," Hebrew University Prof. Moshe Sharon, a world-renowned expert on Islam, explained.
"The Sunnis believe that the caliph, namely the leader of the Islamic community, the 'Commander of the Faithful,' should be elected from the community," he said.
This theological disagreement led to the great Islamic divide.
"Of course [it] developed during the years and there was tremendous enmity and tremendous hatred between the two parts," Sharon said.
That hatred is now being fought on Syrian soil.
"It's a very dramatic development, and it's a reflection of this main struggle in the Middle East today," Gold explained.
In this struggle Iran funds and arms the Assad regime, while the Saudis and other Sunni powers back the opposition, which includes elements of the Muslim Brotherhood. The United States is lining up behind the opposition groups.
"There's growing evidence that on the ground and away from the public eye there are American personnel who are helping to direct resources and weaponry to the rebels," Spyer said.
Spyer said the United States and the West have, in effect, given the job of building up the Syrian opposition to the Saudis. Unfortunately, that opposition is becoming more radical and Islamist.
"To put it simply, if you give the Saudis the job of creating an insurgency for you, well don't be surprised if you get a Sunni Islamist insurgency," Spyer said.
The outcome of this struggle between these two Middle East titans will greatly determine the future and fate of the Middle East. It's a conflict Israeli leaders are watching closely.
If the Syrian opposition topples Assad, it's possible Israel could have a second radical Islamic regime on its borders.
Originally aired on Friday, July 13.
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2012/July/Muslim-Against-Muslim-Syrias-Secret-War-/
29 Oh, Ariel, Ariel,
town where David encamped!
Year by year, let the festivals come around—
2 but I will oppress Ariel.
There will be mourning and lamentation;
she will be like an Ariel to me.
3 I will surround you like a wall,
and I will lay a siege against you with assault towers,
and I will raise up siegeworks against you.
4 You will be brought down;
from the ground you will speak;
from low in the dust your speech will come.
Your voice will be like a ghost's from the earth;
from the dust your words will whisper.
5 But your many enemies will be like fine dust,
the terrible horde like passing chaff.
Suddenly, in an instant, 6 the Lord of heavenly forces will come to you with thunder, earthquake, and a mighty voice,
with whirlwind, tempest, and flames of devouring fire.
7 The horde of nations fighting against Ariel,
and all who make war on her and her fortress and besiege her,
will be like a dream, a vision of the night.
8 It will be like when a hungry person dreams of eating
but wakes up and the mouth is empty.
Or when a thirsty person dreams of drinking
but wakes up and has a dry throat.
So will it be for all the horde of nations
who fight against Mount Zion.
9 Be shocked and stunned;
blind yourselves; be blind!
Be drunk, but not on wine;
stagger, but not on account of beer!
10 The Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep sleep,
and has shut your eyes, you prophets,
and covered your heads, you seers.
11 This entire vision has become for you like the words of a sealed scroll. When they give it to one who can read, saying, "Read this," that one will say, "I can't, because it's sealed." 12 And when the scroll is given to one who can't read, saying, "Read this," that one will say, "I can't read."
--Isa 29
For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;
6 Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee.
7 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.
--Eze 3
And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
--Rev 10
When nations deny God's natural law there are
No countries
No nationalism
The State becomes God
The individual becomes nothing
The State becomes everything
And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
--Gen 11
'For God or for Tyranny'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8Kjvyqjbm0
The Antichrist
Daniel 11:23 After coming to an agreement with him, he will act deceitfully, and with only a few people he will rise to power.
When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot, and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses--but only for a time.
--Dan 11:24
Nehemiah 9:25 They captured fortified cities and fertile land; they took possession of houses filled
with all kinds of good things, wells already dug, vineyards, olive groves and fruit trees in abundance. They ate to the full and were well-nourished; they reveled in your great goodness.
Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 17:25
What Is the Difference Between Sunni and Shiite Muslims--and Why Does It Matter?
HNN Staff
The Islam religion was founded by Mohammed in the seventh century. In 622 he founded the first Islamic state, a theocracy in Medina, a city in western Saudi Arabia located north of Mecca. There are two branches of the religion he founded.
The Sunni branch believes that the first four caliphs--Mohammed's successors--rightfully took his place as the leaders of Muslims. They recognize the heirs of the four caliphs as legitimate religious leaders. These heirs ruled continuously in the Arab world until the break-up of the Ottoman Empire following the end of the First World War.
Shiites, in contrast, believe that only the heirs of the fourth caliph, Ali, are the legitimate successors of Mohammed. In 931 the Twelfth Imam disappeared. This was a seminal event in the history of Shiite Muslims. According to R. Scott Appleby, a professor of history at the University of Notre Dame,"Shiite Muslims, who are concentrated in Iran, Iraq, and Lebanon, [believe they] had suffered the loss of divinely guided political leadership" at the time of the Imam's disappearance. Not"until the ascendancy of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1978" did they believe that they had once again begun to live under the authority of a legitimate religious figure.
Another difference between Sunnis and Shiites has to do with the Mahdi, "the rightly-guided one" whose role is to bring a just global caliphate into being. As historian Timothy Furnish has written,"The major difference is that for Shi`is he has already been here, and will return from hiding; for Sunnis he has yet to emerge into history: a comeback v. a coming out, if you will."
In a special 9-11 edition of the Journal of American History, Appleby explained that the Shiite outlook is far different from the Sunni's, a difference that is highly significant:
... for Sunni Muslims, approximately 90 percent of the Muslim world, the loss of the caliphate after World War I was devastating in light of the hitherto continuous historic presence of the caliph, the guardian of Islamic law and the Islamic state. Sunni fundamentalist leaders thereafter emerged in nations such as Egypt and India, where contact with Western political structures provided them with a model awkwardly to imitate ... as they struggled after 1924 to provide a viable alternative to the caliphate.
In 1928, four years after the abolishment of the caliphate, the Egyptian schoolteacher Hasan al-Banna founded the first Islamic fundamentalist movement in the Sunni world, the Muslim Brotherhood (al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun). Al-Banna was appalled by"the wave of atheism and lewdness [that] engulfed Egypt" following World War I. The victorious Europeans had"imported their half-naked women into these regions, together with their liquors, their theatres, their dance halls, their amusements, their stories, their newspapers, their novels, their whims, their silly games, and their vices." Suddenly the very heart of the Islamic world was penetrated by European"schools and scientific and cultural institutes" that" cast doubt and heresy into the souls of its sons and taught them how to demean themselves, disparage their religion and their fatherland, divest themselves of their traditions and beliefs, and to regard as sacred anything Western."14 Most distressing to al-Banna and his followers was what they saw as the rapid moral decline of the religious establishment, including the leading sheikhs, or religious scholars, at Al-Azhar, the grand mosque and center of Islamic learning in Cairo. The clerical leaders had become compromised and corrupted by their alliance with the indigenous ruling elites who had succeeded the European colonial masters.
Osama bin Laden is a Sunni Muslim. To him the end of the reign of the caliphs in the 1920s was catastrophic, as he made clear in a videotape made after 9-11. On the tape, broadcast by Al-Jazeera on October 7, 2001, he proclaimed:"What America is tasting now is only a copy of what we have tasted. ... Our Islamic nation has been tasting the same for more [than] eighty years, of humiliation and disgrace, its sons killed and their blood spilled, its sanctities desecrated."
Juan Cole, a well-known historian of the Middle East, has pointed out on his blog, Informed Comment, that the split between Sunni and Shiites in Iraq is of relatively recent origin:
I see a lot of pundits and politicians saying that Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq have been fighting for a millennium. We need better history than that. The Shiite tribes of the south probably only converted to Shiism in the past 200 year s. And, Sunni-Shiite riots per se were rare in 20th century Iraq. Sunnis and Shiites cooperated in the 1920 rebellion against the British. If you read the newspapers in the 1950s and 1960s, you don't see anything about Sunni-Shiite riots. There were peasant/landlord struggles or communists versus Baathists. The kind of sectarian fighting we're seeing now in Iraq is new in its scale and ferocity, and it was the Americans who unleashed it.
In December 2006 the New York Times reported that it is not just ordinary Americans who find it difficult to remember the difference between Sunnis and Shiites:
SURPRISE quiz: Is Al Qaeda Sunni or Shiite? Which sect dominates Hezbollah?
Silvestre Reyes, the Democratic nominee to head the House Intelligence Committee, failed to answer both questions correctly last week when put to the test by Congressional Quarterly. He mislabeled Al Qaeda as predominantly Shiite, and on Hezbollah, which is mostly Shiite, he drew a blank.
"Speaking only for myself," he told reporters, "it's hard to keep things in perspective and in the categories."
Not that he's alone. Other members of Congress from both parties have also flunked on-the-spot inquiries. Indeed, some of the smartest Western statesmen of the last century have found themselves flummoxed by Islam. Winston Churchill — in 1921, while busy drawing razor-straight borders across a mercurial Middle East — asked an aide for a three-line note explaining the "religious character" of the Hashemite leader he planned to install in Baghdad.
"Is he a Sunni with Shaih sympathies or a Shaih with Sunni sympathies?" Mr. Churchill wrote, using an antiquated spelling. ("I always get mixed up between these two," he added.)
And maybe religious memorization should not be required for policymaking. Gen. William Odom, who directed the National Security Agency under President Ronald Reagan, said that Mr. Reyes mainly needs to know "how the intelligence community works."
Yet, improving American intelligence, according to General Odom and others with close ties to the Middle East and the American intelligence community, requires more than just a organization chart.
A cheat sheet is in order.
The Review asked nearly a dozen experts, from William R. Polk, author of "Understanding Iraq," to Paul R. Pillar, the C.I.A. official who coordinated intelligence on the Middle East until he retired last year, to explain the region. Here, a quick distillation.
What caused the original divide?
The groups first diverged after the Prophet Muhammad died in 632, and his followers could not agree on whether to choose bloodline successors or leaders most likely to follow the tenets of the faith.
The group now known as Sunnis chose Abu Bakr, the prophet's adviser, to become the first successor, or caliph, to lead the Muslim state. Shiites favored Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law. Ali and his successors are called imams, who not only lead the Shiites but are considered to be descendants of Muhammad. After the 11th imam died in 874, and his young son was said to have disappeared from the funeral, Shiites in particular came to see the child as a Messiah who had been hidden from the public by God.
The largest sect of Shiites, known as "twelvers," have been preparing for his return ever since.
How did the violence start?
In 656, Ali's supporters killed the third caliph. Soon after, the Sunnis killed Ali's son Husain.
Fighting continued but Sunnis emerged victorious over the Shiites and came to revere the caliphate for its strength and piety.
Shiites focused on developing their religious beliefs, through their imams.
http://hnn.us/articles/934.html
Could America become "Islamized" by 2016 with the immigration of 100 million Muslims? How and why could this happen? Could immigration policies be put into effect that would prevent this from happening?
"..the US is solidly behind the rise to power of the Sunni Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, and Syria." Why this is dangerous to the Christians in the middle east, to Israel, the US, and the Christian West. How it will lead to massive Moslem immigration to the US.
http://www.vicmord.com/Newsletter_July_2011.html
Turkey, the final seat of the Islamic Caliphate and Ottoman Empire, is Sunni. Saudi Arabia is Sunni.
Syria and Iran are currently Shi'a. Sunni rebels are fighting against the Shi'a government in Syria.
Sunni Moslem brotherhood has now taken over the countries of Egypt, Libya, and is in the process of trying to topple the Shi'a government of Syria. The US gov't is standing behind them. Why is the US gov't supporting Sunni over Shi'a?
"we are no longer a Christian Nation"
--Barack Hussein Soetoro-O'bama
"if you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world."
--BHS-O
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2012, 05:12:48 AM
.......website argues that the fourth kingdom in Nebuchadnezzar's dream [Daniel 2] is not Rome but the Ottoman Empire. This is the empire the Lord will smash [the stone cut without hands] when he returns.
The 4 world empires in the statue with the head of God culminated with the Roman Empire which was when, " a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet." Then the entire image was, "...broken in pieces together...that became like the chaff." It was blown away with no place found for them. What has been happening for the last 2 thousand years and is prophesied to continue until fulfilled is, "The stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." (Dn 2
35)
The 4 beasts of Daniel are Great Brittain, Russia, Germany and the United Nations. The prophetic teachings of the 1800's had them as reiterations of the statue's 4 world empires. An examination of the Word concerning the placement in these empires of the scattering of Israel after the feet and a parallel place for the gathering of Israel after the birth of the 4th beast reveals this 4th beast, the U.N., to have been born after the defeat of the 3rd "panzer" beast with Hitler's death in 1945 and before the formation of Israel in 1948.
The Roman Empire [pagan] morphed into the Byzantine Empire [Christian] which morphed into the Ottoman Empire [Muslim]. The Ottoman Empire is rising again today [after being fatally wounded in WWI].
So we could see a direct 1 to 1 correlation between Roman and Ottoman. All of the middle east was Christian after Christ--from Turkey to northern Africa and into Asia--from the time of Constantine to the fall of Constantinople in 1453 at the hands of the Ottoman Turks.
The stone is not breaking other kingdoms yet--quite the opposite. This is still a prophecy yet to happen with the return of Christ.
Quote from: Molly on July 21, 2012, 05:42:23 AM
The stone is not breaking other kingdoms yet--quite the opposite. This is still a prophecy yet to happen with the return of Christ.
How can you say that after you just described the following, the disapation of the Roman Empire by Christ, the Stone cut out without hands. The pieces of the empire were blown away by the Spirit of God. He changed it from within.
Quote from: Molly on July 21, 2012, 05:42:23 AM
The Roman Empire [pagan] morphed into the Byzantine Empire [Christian] which morphed into the Ottoman Empire [Muslim].
All of the middle east was Christian after Christ--from Turkey to northern Africa and into Asia--from the time of Constantine to the fall of Constantinople in 1453 at the hands of the Ottoman Turks.
Though evidence is there was an early incursion of Christ into China, it has been observed that the whole world was at one point Christian, except for China which would have become Christian if the Mass could have been said in Chinese.
Quote from: Molly on July 21, 2012, 05:42:23 AM
The stone is not breaking other kingdoms yet--quite the opposite. This is still a prophecy yet to happen with the return of Christ.
You just described how Christ is in us usurped the kingdoms. "We are members of His body; of His flesh and of His bones." (Ephesians5
30) The reign of His kingdom has seen some setbacks in the half a Milennia of years coming into our present. Much that has been Christian in the West seems asleep in apostasy; yet, millions in South America, Africa and parts of Asia have been powerfully transformed by the outpouring of God's fire in the last several decades. It is a more spiritual reign than in the times of the Roman and Orthodox ascendency. The mountain is still in the process of filling all the earth and it seems possible that a tipping point, an entrance into the Age of Tabernacles, could come quickly with a confrontation of the Beast, the kings of the earth and their armies gathered to war against "the Word of God" (Revelation 19
13) and His army.
I can say it by looking at the world today.
The entire Middle East is Muslim and getting more dangerous to the tiny Christian minority left there by the day.
Am I missing something?
It was Christian once--Roman and Byzantine Empire. It is no longer.
Satan is still god of this world [aion].
You've pointed out again (in reply #22) what I've just said and will repeat with some differences. We are in period of loss of ground in a more institutional, worldly and carnal kingdom; but, there are millions being swept into the kingdom of God in several parts of the globe. This "revival," if you want to call it that, is not retreating. It is going to become a vast hurricane of fire. The kingdom of God is coming into rule with a much more spiritual source than that from, say, 500 AD -- 1500 AD.
And, an entrance into the Age of Tabernacles, could come quickly with a confrontation of the Beast, the kings of the earth and their armies gathered to war against "the Word of God" (Revelation 1913) and His army. It is very possible that the Muslim Mahdi could be the Beast. "The Word of God" could be seen as the many-membered body of Christ (1 Corinthians 1212.) Rapture doctrine people would probably say this "Word" is Messiah Jesus, in the guise of the limited flesh of His first coming before He died and rose again. At any rate, Mahdi vs. Messiah!? We'll have to wait and see.
Quote from: ReformerWe are in period of loss of ground in a more institutional, worldly and carnal kingdom; but, there are millions being swept into the kingdom of God in several parts of the globe
I am watching the disintegration of Christianity in my own country and it's small consolation to me what revivals might be going on in Africa or China.
In a similar fashion, Israel is facing a rising Sunni caliphate in the Middle East and they are finding themselves needing more than ever a Christian America to lean on which is no longer there.
As I turn these things over in my mind, I know what Nazism is, I know what it means to be a minority ruled by Islam--the two systems are very similar to each other and natural allies--and we see them acting as natural allies on the world stage today, instead of on a national stage. What played out in Germany under Hitler and in the Middle East under Islamic fundamentalism is shaping up to play out over nations instead of within them, because there is no other way Satan can bring in his NWO.
And, Israel and Christian America are two of the biggest impediments to Satan so both must go.
Not to be gloomy or anything [ok maybe I am gloomy tonight], but Jesus said it himself--
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:21
Quote from: Molly on July 22, 2012, 10:57:43 AM
Israel is...finding themselves needing more than ever a Christian America to lean on which is no longer there.
That's really sad. And half of America and much of the world has little idea what's going on with that every day here in America.
"...we are going to fundamentally transform America". The crowd cheers.
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2012, 09:10:40 AM
Quote from: ReformerThe saints are going to take over, not the wicked. The saints are going to stay. The wicked will be removed
I agree!
IMO, it is not the wicked man who will be removed, it is the wickedness in the man that will be removed and that will be done when God pours out His Spirit upon the world.
We are seeing the beginning of this pouring out, the beginning of the rain. As the world was completely flooded by water ( the water baptism of the world) so will the world be baptized with the Holy Spirit and it will come as a downpour upon this world, changing the hearts and minds of men. A changing from within.
Quote from: Molly on July 22, 2012, 10:57:43 AM
Not to be gloomy or anything [ok maybe I am gloomy tonight], but Jesus said it himself--
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:21
That statement by Jesus referred to what happened a little less than 40 years later. Many of those who heard His prophecy lived to see it come to pass, just as He said. Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed. The people of temple Judaism were driven from the land and scattered among the gentiles.
I don't believe we can understand what is in the process of coming to pass when our minds are full of failed theories of Scripture interpretation from previous days. All the more so when those teachings are not supported by any direct quotation from Scripture.
I will think this way if you can give me actual
Scriptural statements that say any of the following:
1.) The sudden
2.) disappearance
3.) of racially gentile believers
4.) before (or mid or post)
5.) 7 years great tribulation
6.) Jesus coming "for" His people
7.) followed by a gap (however long) before
8.) a 2nd Second coming
Quote from: jugghead on July 22, 2012, 03:39:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2012, 09:10:40 AM
Quote from: ReformerThe saints are going to take over, not the wicked. The saints are going to stay. The wicked will be removed
I agree!
IMO, it is not the wicked man who will be removed, it is the wickedness in the man that will be removed and that will be done when God pours out His Spirit upon the world.
We are seeing the beginning of this pouring out, the beginning of the rain. As the world was completely flooded by water ( the water baptism of the world) so will the world be baptized with the Holy Spirit and it will come as a downpour upon this world, changing the hearts and minds of men. A changing from within.
I think it will possibly be both the removal of wickedness from mankind and the removal of stubbornly wicked men through Divine judgements. I'm open to that "fire" of the Holy Spirit doing more completely the transformation through the purifying fire of His Love nature rather than the destroying nature of another order of fire. It certainly is going to be much more that many times over than the popular report has it.
Like His slaying them with the sword of His mouth. That is what happened to me in being regenerated by His Spirit. The old Adam man has been being slain by what He is speaking to me. That word is activating the new man to take over.
James, I have many preteristic leanings as well. I've had the thought that Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled in 70 AD, but sometimes I wonder - at least about parts of it. As you know, it's a very big chapter used to describe "end times events".
One of those things that has given me pause is this statement; "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning...nor ever shall be". Sometimes it's hard to imagine that there will never be a greater tribulational cataclysm than the Jews experienced at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD - you know, "that was it" - when there seems to be a) so much technological potential today and b) so much teaching along the lines of LaHaye's Left Behind. Those things have a definite influence.
So you personally don't see any future "showdown" as being as "great" [bad] as it was in 70 AD?
I don't know for sure. It seems there have been years of "tribulation" and persecution of Christians in our times: The Nazis (killing 7 million Christians and 6 million Jews,) under Maoism in Red China, under Lenin and those Communist leaders following him in the Soviet Union, and now under Moslems world wide.
The possibility I see is described in Revelation 12. Our being brought into complete victory, a resurrection people described as a man child that the enemy cannot prevent, defeat or remove. It seems (also from Rev 12) that the dragon will go after those remaining in the earth who are serving God and obeying His word. That could be the final big trouble as we, that is, all mankind are about cross over into the age of Tabernacles, what is called the Millennium.
Quote from: jabcat on July 23, 2012, 08:06:15 AM
James, I have many preteristic leanings as well. I've had the thought that Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled in 70 AD, but sometimes I wonder - at least about parts of it. As you know, it's a very big chapter used to describe "end times events".
Everybody seems to agree there Jesus comes twice. Some sort of double prophesy?
QuoteOne of those things that has given me pause is this statement; "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning...nor ever shall be".
What if I would take this (http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/harvests-of-god/msg119963/#msg119963) 'literally'?
What if it means the greatest harvest of souls?
1)The sudden
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye 1 Cor 15
2)disappearance
17 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1 Thess 4
3) of racially gentile believers [some Jews are believers also]
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- Eph 1:5
4)before or mid or post
Before the Great Tribulation [last 3.5 years]
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thess 5:9
)7 years of great tribulation
The great tribulation is 3.5 years
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
Dan 9:26
The prince that shall come= the Antichrist
midst of the week=3.5 days=3.5 years
those in Jerusalem/Israel will be utterly destroyed to the point decreed
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 9:27
At this time the prince of Israel will stand up for the Jews [the 144,000 sealed tribes of Israel]--the Gentile believers have already been removed because they return with Christ at the 'second coming.'
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book
This is the second coming of Christ which is different from the 'rapture of the church'
The elect [gentile church] is already in heaven because we see them summoned by the angels to accompany Christ when he returns
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24:31
These saints will return with Christ at the 'second coming'
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
--Jude 1
All those left on earth will mourn when they see him coming with clouds [of saints/witnesses]
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
--Mat 24:30
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
--2 Thess 2:7
This tells us that something is restraining the evil mystery religions [the whore of Babylon, spirit of Satan] and will continue to restrain this evil until it is taken out of the way.
When it is taken out of the way, the Antichrist [described by Daniel] will be revealed with nothing to restrain him. I see this as a man with the indwelt Satan. He will be destroyed when Jesus returns. Satan himself will be locked in the pit for 1000 years.
Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming.
--2 Thess 2:8
This man is further defined as Lucifer. We are told that there will be a departure [falling away in KJV] before this man of perdition is revealed. Once that departure happens, there is no longer anything left to restrain him. I take this to mean the Spirit filled believers are holding back Satan and when they leave at the 'rapture,' they will take the Holy Spirit with them.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
--2 Thess 2
English Bibles before the 1611 King James call the 'falling away' the 'departure.'
So the departure happens first and then the man of sin is revealed who is the Antichist of Daniel's prophecy--because there is nothing left to restrain him.
If this departure is not the rapture, the only other alternative is that the Holy Spirit departs the world and leaves us all bereft with the Antichrist.
Another alternative reading is that the church becomes so heretical that there is no longer any indwelt with the Holy Spirit to restrain the Antichrist, but I just don't believe that could happen.
It seems to me you don't understand what a quotation of actual words from the Scripture saying what this Rapture doctrine says involves. You only came up with one sample of actual Bible words saying what has been taught and that involves # 1, "suddenly." Only look at (the short version of) what we find when we bother to look it up using concordances and Greek reference works. . .
Quote from: Molly on July 23, 2012, 08:35:12 AM
1)The sudden
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye 1 Cor 15
In "a moment" (1 Corinthians 15
52) in Greek is
atomos Strong's #G823. It means "negative-division" or, "un-cut."
Atomos was used from Plato's day to refer to what we call elements, as are in the table of elements, such as gold, sulfur, hydrogen, carbon, and the like. This means His coming to be present is in the physical elements that make up our bodies. "We shall be changed" into incorruptible immortal beings born of God in our physical nature as well as being spiritually regenerated by the Spirit of God.Illustrating its positive use is (2 Timothy 2
15), "...
rightly dividing the word of truth."
Here "rightly dividing," (Strong's #G3718,)
orthotomeō (Greek:) means:
1) to cut straight, to cut straight ways
a) to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right
2) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly
This aspect of atomos suggests to me He is coming to be present peaceably, with no disruption. It is a smooth transition, just the next step in the journey.(The short version of) the next phrase,
"In the twinkling of an eye," (1 Corinthians 15
52) occurs only here in KJV. "Twinkling" (Strong's #G4493)
rhipē primarily means "to cast ones view from one place to another," or, "to look into another realm." It can mean to "to glance."
Thayers indicates the meaning "a moment of time" is not found in ancient Greek authors but is a invention of Bible translators. The ancient Greeks also use it to mean: "down, inclination downwards," as of the turning of the scale. This suggests to me
Scripture here refers to an inward sphere of perception.Finally, "
In the last trump" (1Corinthians 15
52) which indicates
His coming to be present is in a (silver) vessel of redemption prepared for the moving of the wind of the Holy Spirit within it to produce a certain sound which causes irreversible changes among the sons of men.
The Mahdi [Islam Messiah] is prophesied by the followers of Islam to ride on a white horse when he arrives. Islam foretells the Mahdi will lead his conquering army into Jerusalem at the end times.
They believe that the rider of the white horse of revelation 6 is describing their Mahdi.
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Rev 6:2
"a crown"
G4735
στέφανος
stephanos
stef'-an-os
From an apparently primary "stepho" (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, G1238), literally or figuratively: - crown.
Although the two riders of the white horse look similar in a superficial reading, the crown on the rider in Rev 6 is different from the crown that the real Messiah, who is also riding a white horse, will wear.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
--Rev 19
[many] "crowns"
G1238
διάδημα
diadēma
dee-ad'-ay-mah
From a compound of G1223 and G1210; a "diadem" (as bound about the head): - crown. Compare G4735.
"diadem"
A jeweled crown or headband worn as a symbol of sovereignty
The Muslim Messiah is wearing the crown of a conqueror, that one might wear as a winner of a battle or of the Olympic games.
Our Lord Jesus is wearing the crown of a King, or more specifically, the crowns of many Kings.
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Rev 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q
Quote from: ReformerFinally, "In the last trump" (1Corinthians 1552) which indicates His coming to be present is in a (silver) vessel of redemption prepared for the moving of the wind of the Holy Spirit within it to produce a certain sound which causes irreversible changes among the sons of .men.
I like this because sound is vibration, and vibration causes matter to change from one state to another.
We will 'sing a new song,' that is, have a different vibration.
But, also, the trump is the voice of God
and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1:10
The first trumpet was the voice of God to Moses at Mt Sinai in Ex 19.
The last trumpet, the command of Jesus, will change us from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortal, from one state to another--
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.
Quote from: Molly on July 24, 2012, 09:24:55 AM
Quote from: ReformerFinally, "In the last trump" (1Corinthians 1552) which indicates His coming to be present is in a (silver) vessel of redemption prepared for the moving of the wind of the Holy Spirit within it to produce a certain sound which causes irreversible changes among the sons of .men.
I like this because sound is vibration, and vibration causes matter to change from one state to another.
We will 'sing a new song,' that is, have a different vibration.
But, also, the trump is the voice of God
and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1:10
The first trumpet was the voice of God to Moses at Mt Sinai in Ex 19.
The last trumpet, the command of Jesus, will change us from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortal, from one state to another--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.
If you look at the original trumpets they were what? Actual horns on rams. They were attached to the head. Like God would come to us and blow His breath into our head.
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 24, 2012, 01:53:22 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 24, 2012, 09:24:55 AM
Quote from: ReformerFinally, "In the last trump" (1Corinthians 1552) which indicates His coming to be present is in a (silver) vessel of redemption prepared for the moving of the wind of the Holy Spirit within it to produce a certain sound which causes irreversible changes among the sons of .men.
I like this because sound is vibration, and vibration causes matter to change from one state to another.
We will 'sing a new song,' that is, have a different vibration.
But, also, the trump is the voice of God
and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1:10
The first trumpet was the voice of God to Moses at Mt Sinai in Ex 19.
The last trumpet, the command of Jesus, will change us from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortal, from one state to another--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.
If you look at the original trumpets they were what? Actual horns on rams. They were attached to the head. Like God would come to us and blow His breath into our head.
Nice thought Red.
:dsunny:
Air Are these (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109068/) guys inspired?
:laugh2: took me a second there :rocker
Proof that Jesus will come for his bride on Tabernacles?
2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.
3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.
--John 7
The trumpets for Feast of Tabernacles are not shofar, that is, rams' horns. They are silver. In Revelation these are seven succesive trumpets that sound. The seventh trumpet would be called the last in the series. The climax occurs in the sound of the seventh angel or trumpet as described by Revelation 107 and 1115 seems the same thing described in 1 Corinthians 1551-53 (focusing on verse 52) where "the last trump" is specified. From this I have long wondered how those upholding the Rapture doctrine could insist that the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 is yet another "last" trumpet which many place after the last one in Revelation. When these two "last" trumpets are drawn to their attention it doesn't seem to alert them to their need for some adjustment anymore than the Biblically non-existent two "2nd" comings they believe in.
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 107 KJV)
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 1115 KJV)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 1551-53)
What is the last trump of 1 Cor 15:52?
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Cor 15:52)
The question of what exactly is the last trump has puzzled many. Some have concluded that it is the seventh trumpet spoken of in Revelation 8:2, 10:7 and 11:15. Others believe that the last trump is the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. However, these explanations cannot be right for a number of reasons.
First, the last trump of 1Corinthians 15 plainly refers to the Rapture of the body of Christ. If the last trump corresponds to the seventh trumpet of Revelation or the trumpet of Matthew 24:31, then the body of Christ must endure through the majority of the tribulation. However, the body of Christ cannot be subject to the tribulation because God has not appointed the body of Christ to wrath.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (1Thess 5:9-10)
Second, since the body of Christ is a mystery hid from ages and generations (Col 1:25-27, Romans 16:25-26), its ultimate fulfillment cannot be found in the prophetic program that has been spoken of since the world began (Acts 3:20-21). Moreover, Paul specifically says in the verse immediately prior to the discussion of the last trump that he is referring to a mystery (1Cor 15:51).
Third, for those who believe in a literal interpretation of the scriptures, it cannot be ignored that a "trump" is not the same thing as a "trumpet." The difference is not simply one of spelling but of meaning. While the word "trump" can be a variant of trumpet, it can also be used in an archaic sense to refer to the blast of a trump (Compact Oxford English Dictionary).
It should not be overlooked that scripture uses the word "trump" only twice. Both uses are in Paul's epistles (1Cor 15:52, 1Thess 4:16), and both contexts refer to the catching away of the body of Christ in the air, commonly called the Rapture. Therefore, to understand how the word trump is used in 1Corinthians 15:52, a careful study of the parallel passage in 1Thessalonians 4 is helpful.
1Thessalonians 4:16 indicates that the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1Th 4:16)
When the Lord descends, he brings with him the deceased saints who were saved during the dispensation of grace.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (1Th 4:14)
In 1Thessalonians 4, Paul divides the body of Christ into two categories: (1) saints who are deceased at the time of the Rapture and (2) saints who are alive and remain. It is clear that the first category, those saints who are dead in Christ, shall rise before the second category, those saints who are alive on the earth at the time of the Rapture.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1Th 4:16)
After the dead in Christ are risen, then the saints who are alive are caught up together with the deceased saints in the clouds.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)
This order of events is entirely consistent with the use of the word "prevent" in 1Thess 4:15.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1Th 4:15)
Paul uses the word "prevent" in its original sense of meaning "to come before." 1Thessalonians 4:15 indicates that those who are alive shall not come before them which are asleep, which is consistent with the passage's indication that the dead in Christ shall rise first and then those which are alive and remain.
In short, 1Thessalonians 4 clearly establishes the following order of events:
1. The Lord descends with the trump of God bringing with him those who sleep
2. The dead in Christ rise first
3. Those which are alive and remain are caught up
With this chronology in mind, let us review 1Corinthians 15:52:
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Cor 15:52)
One way to read this verse is that at the time of the last trump, three things occur: (1) the trumpet shall sound, (2) the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and (3) we shall be changed. However, it is clear from 1Thessalonians 4 that these three events do not occur simultaneously. The proper way to read this verse is that it follows and confirms the exact order of events set forth in 1Thessalonians 4:
1Corinthians 15
1Thessalonians 4
the trumpet shall sound
The Lord descends with the trump of God
the dead shall be raised incorruptible
the dead in Christ shall rise first
we shall be changed
those which are alive and remain are caught up
With this understanding of the proper order, 1Corinthians 15:51-52 becomes clear:
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Cor 15:52-52)
When Paul says "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," he is plainly referring to the category of saints which are alive and remain. Since it is clear from the order of both 1Corinthians 15 and 1Thessalonians 4 that the last event to take place is the catching up of those who are alive, it naturally follows that such event would correspond with the "last trump," i.e. the last sounding of the trumpet that begins to blow when Christ descends to Rapture the body of Christ. Thus, the last trump is simply the last sounding of the trumpet that blows when Christ returns for his church.
http://www.columbusbiblechurch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52:1-corinthians-1552&catid=37:articles&Itemid=59
Quote from: reFORMer on July 25, 2012, 02:30:25 AM
The trumpets for Feast of Tabernacles are not shofar, that is, rams' horns. They are silver.
Trumpets are for calling the leaders/people.
Shofar is about redemption.
Lev 25:9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land.
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,
7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
--Isa 62
Watchmen sit on the wall and stare at the horizon. They just stare and stare and stare, until they see something on the horizon, and then they announce to the people what is coming.
The time of Jacob's trouble is still in the future, and will happen before the Lord returns.
The Gentile church will save Israel out of this time.
In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved! Jer 30:7
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
--Rom 11
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
--Rom 11
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
--Rom 11
For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain. Acts 28:20
By the way, we see the election by grace operating in the Old Testament here:
A remnant is saved by grace:
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11
And, here Paul tells us at the present time there is also a remnant of Jews saved by the election of grace [among them the writers of the NT]:
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11
The national ethnic group is hardened ['a partial hardening'] into unbelief, but at the end of the age, this elect remnant will explode to include the whole nation of Israel:
No longer will each person teach his neighbors or his relatives by saying, 'Know the LORD.' All of them, from the least important to the most important, will know me," declares the LORD, "because I will forgive their wickedness and I will no longer hold their sins against them." Jer 31:34
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
Rom 11:28
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11
FOR THE GIFTS AND CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2012, 04:01:03 PM
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,
7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
--Isa 62
Watchmen sit on the wall and stare at the horizon. They just stare and stare and stare, until they see something on the horizon, and then they announce to the people what is coming.
Being (spiritually) a Watchman is a foundational precursor to being a prophet.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
--Zech 12
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11
Who is this Deliverer and where is it written?
15 But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of hosts is his name.
16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.
--Isa 51
8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
--Heb 8
--Jeremiah 31:31-34
20 "And a Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression," declares the Lord.
21 "And as for me, this is my covenant with them," says the Lord: "My Spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children's offspring," says the Lord, "from this time forth and forevermore."
--Isa 59
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
--Zech 12
And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.
--Eze 36:26
In perusing through some of these postings particularly about the current conflict going on between Syria & Turkey by Molly, it caused a spark in my imagination that took me to the opening of Revelation & the 7 letters to those ecclesias & the fact they are located in Turkey during the time spoken of by Daniel as the 70th week.
Presently only a couple sites of those cities have a significant human population, so how do 7 ecclesias show up there during the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy?
In Dan 12:1 it is made very clear to Daniel that the 70th week is a prophecy to Daniel's people Israel. Now fast forward to Rev 1 & the letters to the seven congregations in the named cities in present day Turkey. It must follow that if the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy deals with the redemption of Israel as is stated in the 12th chapter of Daniel, then these seven congregations in Turkey are Jewish synagogues & these letters are now the unsealing of the prophecies to his people that Daniel was told to seal up.
Turkey is a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism as is it's now hated neighbor Syria. How do Jews establish such a foothold in modern day Turkey that they can build synagogues in those 7 cities? The only answer is a restructuring of boundaries of those two nations caused by intensive warfare that we may now viewing the seeds of. Syria may be about to fall & Turks will shed no tears over its' demise. Are these two countries about to go at it only to cause the demise of both nations to the point it will be easy pickings for the Jews in Israel to simply walk over their present day borders & take over any geographical location they like?
Somehow there needs to be a radical restructuring of Middle Eastern boundaries of Syria & Turkey with Israel in control for those 7 synagogues to be established with any kind of security. I'm really looking for this conflict in Syria to blow up into something so big that we will be stunned by the shock of how fast it may happen & the breadth of it reshaping a lot of national boundaries to Israel's favor.
Or it rather simply is chapter 2 and 3 of Revelation are to the seven churches of Asia in the days of the writing of Revelation.
Interesting theory, Paul. I agree that Israel will eventually expand her borders to the original huge tract of land granted to her by God, between the Nile and the Euphrates.
But, first, I think, will be the time of Jacob's trouble, and it will look like Israel is losing.
France Is Preparing A Plan To Evacuate Its Citizens From Israel
Adam Taylor|Aug. 9, 2012, 11:16 AM
French newspaper La Tribune reports that an evacuation plan for 200,000 French citizens currently living in Israel has been devised.
French diplomatic sources told the newspaper that the plan was launched due to the rising risk of a conflict with Iran. The aim is to not be caught "off guard" if Israel is attacked by missiles launched by Iranian forces or Hezbollah.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/france-is-preparing-a-plan-to-evacuate-its-citizens-from-israel-2012-8#ixzz23I0Wm0JG
Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
Well Molly, here's some additional background on this to add to my hypotheses.
Some days ago I was looking at a map showing the locations of Mesech, Tubal, & Gomer in the times of the Old Testament prior to the Assyrian/Babylonian captivities of the northern & southern tribes of Israel. We know these three areas are prominent in prophecy & in other places of the Bible & have been referred to as the "north" parts which in the past have come upon Israel & will do so again in the future. What is interesting about the locations of those 7 ecclesias is their location, right smack dab in the middle of Mesech, Tubal, & Gomer also once a part of the ancient Assyrian empire just before Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar took over.
In Dan 11 are several references to the King of the North. The Bible identifies Mesech, Tubal, & Gomer as the area of the north parts, also the location of Assyria which came from the north to take captive the northern 10 tribes of Israel. It can't possibly be coincidental these "north parts" are also the locations of the 7 ecclesias in Revelation 1.
The so-called Anti-Christ will be accepted by Israel as their messiah, therefore he being a Jew himself who is also King of the North, is the one (or his father) who establishes boundaries along the present northern Israeli border for creation of a northern security zone for Israel to stop the rocket attacks they have been threatened with by Islamic ideologues who want to wipe them out.
Here's the scenario I'm imagining for a map of Mideast boundaries of the 70 week, that Israel via military intervention has forced the fall of present Islamic leaders in Syria & Turkey & forced the present day leadership of Iran (Persia) to abandon plans to create Shiite fundamentalism in the area.
With these areas of the North firmly in the control of Israel's powerful military forces, the Israeliis will forcefully set up governments over which they will initially dictate the terms of leadership of the area, thus the establishment of 7 synagogues of Rev 1 by dictate of the now Jewish controlled leadership. I just don't see any other way possible this could happen.
Also there seem to be hints in Rev 2 that the so-called Anti-christ actually comes out of one of these seven ecclesias, that he is one of those Nicolaitanes who is of the synagogue of Satan in verse 9.
Paul, again a fascinating theory. I would like to see the map that places Mesach, Tubal, and Gomer in modern day Turkey at the location of these churches. As you know, some disagree with that, although all agree that Turkey figures prominently in the end times.
Even at the times of those churches, we see Jesus identifying their location as within Satan's realm. He identifies the synagogue of Satan in Smyrna, Pergamos as the seat of Satan [where seat=throne] and the place where Satan dwells. There are some at Thyatira and Pergamos churches who are worshipping Satan. In Sardis they have defiled their garments, and the works of Laodicea are lukewarm at best. Ephesus is the location of the temple of Artemis and a central location for the pagans of the ancient world.
That these churches could thrive at all in this environment is a miracle. But we know even that didn't last, as Turkey fell to the Muslims and became the seat of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey's last act before it was dismantled was the genocide of some 2 million Armenian Christians in WW1.
Today, we see the Caliphate rising again, a revived Ottoman Empire, and a Muslim civil war of sorts occurring, where it looks as if Turkey might rise victorious if Syria falls, and then Iran. A Caliphate of united Muslim countries surrounding Israel would be disastrous to Israel, imo, but I don't see many discussing this.
So, assuming these churches were beachheads in the dwelling place of Satan to begin with, it makes perfect sense to me that at the end times, beachheads would again be established that would be this time successful. But, I would like to see more scripture supporting this thesis.
http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/churchhistory/pergamon/
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2012, 04:26:58 AM
Paul, again a fascinating theory. I would like to see the map that places Mesach, Tubal, and Gomer in modern day Turkey at the location of these churches. As you know, some disagree with that, although all agree that Turkey figures prominently in the end times. /quote]
In the back of my old KJ Bible I have several maps of the holy land area down through the bible ages. The very first map is that of the Near East in the time of the Assyrian empire & it shows even the city of Sardis was in existence at that time in which would correspond to the area of Meshech or Mushki, then advance a few centuries to the time of Apostle Paul's travels and there is a map showing the routes of his travels with the seven cities of those ecclesias noted by star indicators.
Maybe if you type into a search engine for a map of the Assyrian Empire you can come up with a similar map as I have in my Bible that will give you the locations of Meshech, Tubal, & Gomer. Meshech is located in the very most Eastern part of present day Turkey, Gomer in the central part, & Tubal in the extreme southeastern part. All seven ecclesias are located in the Meshech part which is true north of Israel. Let me know how you make out, if not I can scan & then email the two maps to you.
Quote from: Paul L on August 13, 2012, 05:28:49 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2012, 04:26:58 AM
Paul, again a fascinating theory. I would like to see the map that places Mesach, Tubal, and Gomer in modern day Turkey at the location of these churches. As you know, some disagree with that, although all agree that Turkey figures prominently in the end times. /quote]
In the back of my old KJ Bible I have several maps of the holy land area down through the bible ages. The very first map is that of the Near East in the time of the Assyrian empire & it shows even the city of Sardis was in existence at that time in which would correspond to the area of Meshech or Mushki, then advance a few centuries to the time of Apostle Paul's travels and there is a map showing the routes of his travels with the seven cities of those ecclesias noted by star indicators.
Maybe if you type into a search engine for a map of the Assyrian Empire you can come up with a similar map as I have in my Bible that will give you the locations of Meshech, Tubal, & Gomer. Meshech is located in the very most Eastern part of present day Turkey, Gomer in the central part, & Tubal in the extreme southeastern part. All seven ecclesias are located in the Meshech part which is true north of Israel. Let me know how you make out, if not I can scan & then email the two maps to you.
Sorry Molly, somehow I messed up the quote immediately above, I guess I erased a bracket off the bottom
& my response ended up as part of your quote, but you seem good at this sort thing so I'm sure you'll get the message of the point I was making about the maps.
Turkey as the antichrist nation
http://schnellmann.org/Turkey_As_The_Antichrist_Nation.pdf
Paul, check out this article. It looks like Yavan/Ionia is in the part of Turkey where the churches are. From this verse in Zech 9:
Zechariah 9 clearly lists Yavan/Ionia (Turkey) the primary player in the Last-Days attack
against Israel. Many will have missed this prophecy due to a commonly used yet misleading
translation: "I will rouse your sons, 0 Zion, against your sons, 0 Greece (Yavan, Ionia)."
The key aspect of this passage is the reference to the sons of a place called Zion (Jews)
fighting against the sons of a place called Yavan (Turks). Yavan was a descendant of Noah
who came to live on the western coast of Asia Minor, or modern day Turkey, in the area that
came to be known as Ionia. See also Joel 3:6. Zechariah 9 is clearly speaking in terms that
only can be applicable to the Last-Days, and the return of Jesus the Messiah "Jehovah will
appear over them." After this time, the Messiah will rule Israel and her land will be far
greater than it is today:
Molly, I linked to the article & read it. Big problem is where he is asserting that the so-called Anti-Christ, who will be the false messiah to the Jews of Israel, will be Muslim. The Jews will never allow a Muslim to spend 3 1/2 years offering sacrifices inside the Holy of Holies of their temple, it is for precisely this reason I am presenting the concept of a future Israeli takeover of borders to its' north extending even into Turkey.
The Christian powers of the west are presently in a struggle with the Islamists of the middle east, a struggle the Islamists have no hope of winning because of the West's overwhelming military superiority. There is not even the remotest posiibilty that the 7 ecclesias can be re-established in the same cities, as in the time of Paul, with Muslims in control of the country, their religious beliefs do not allow them to live side by side with Jews or Christians.
I've seen this hypotheses before of an individual trying to sell a very expensive book about an Islamic Anti-Christ. I believe it was on the WND, WorldNetDaily, could be the same guy, I poo pooed it immediately as I saw he was proposing the Muslim Anti-Christ thing.
The borders of almost all the countries of the middle east have been drawn & redrawn many times in the 20th century, and this 21st century will be no different due to the rise of militant Islamists. I think what we see going on in Syria will stir the Israelis to action to protect their own northern border, and they may just go so far as to lend a hand in toppling Assad, the only question in my mind is at what border do the Israelis stop, and it looks to me like all the way to Turkey.
Quote from: PaulThe Jews will never allow a Muslim to spend 3 1/2 years offering sacrifices inside the Holy of Holies of their temple, it is for precisely this reason I am presenting the concept of a future Israeli takeover of borders to its' north extending even into Turkey.
Not sure the Jews would have much to say about it. It's interesting that the Muslim Mahdi ['Messiah'] so closely resembles our Antichrist. Some think the Temple will be rebuilt before this happens. I don't.
But, also, one event doesn't preclude the other. Have you given some thought to the time of Jacob's trouble? Why use the name Jacob? Because Jacob has not yet become Israel, even though he lives in a country he has named Israel.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
--Jer 30
(Other than it isn't prophecy) one of the biggest problems of cooking up "end-time" scenarios by explaining "Bible prophecies" is using re-tread from already fulfilled passages. I know multiple fulfillment is the popular recent tradition we evangelicals have grown up on and are surrounded with. It has come about by having so many trying to be authorities on what is written without studying it. They didn't know it had already happened.
It's not only rare to see an attempted defense of double-duty prophecy, I've never seen a succesful proof from the words of God that prophecies once fulfilled are going to be fulfilled yet again in our future. Since this theory unapoligetically riddles the strange march of Scripture snippetts spouting from most prominent "teachers of Bible prophecy" (see, these people are not prophecying) I have no confidence that I'll hear anything else reliable. I don't expect people like this to get much help from God to find new truths since they refuse to do their homework, verifying or invalidating the old "truths" they've been indoctrinated to believe. God likes a humble and repentant soul.
Like earlier on this thread, and other times in the past, I posted a thing studying out what little Scripture exists to give us the idea the change coming to us at the appearing of the lord is, "...in a moment, in a twinckle of an eye." The facts dont seem to support those words of instantaneous change as good translations. I still lack absolute certainty, but feel better with what seems a more accurate view of what is written there. Who looked at it and didn't change, just went on with what was believed before? How can we reject His help and expect God to grant us grace in our search, granting us words of wisdom and knowledge that honor those devoted to Him, those seeking His face and hungry to understand His word?
Quote(Other than it isn't prophecy) one of the biggest problems of cooking up "end-time" scenarios by explaining "Bible prophecies" is using re-tread from already fulfilled passages. I know multiple fulfillment is the present popular recent tradition we evangelicals have grown up on and are surrounded with. It has come about by having so many trying to be authorities on what
is written without studying it. They didn't know it had already happened.
'cooking up' is kind of a pejorative term, but what tells you that something is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages? These passages will often have characteristics that might conform to what has already happened, but then you see an element that has not yet happened, and how do you explain that?
For instance, the city of Damascus has never been destroyed in all its ancient history, but we see it described as utterly destroyed, 'taken away from being a city, a fallen ruin.' We know this has not happened yet. So, when we see a civil war promulgated by outside interests and heavy bombing in Damascus, do you think maybe we should perk up our ears?
Nobody is trying to be a prophet. A prophet has to live out the word he speaks. He has to marry a whore and experience infidelity himself so that he can speak God's word to God's people who are being unfaithful to him. A watchman doesn't have to be a prophet, just be what he is, someone who watches and describes what he sees coming on the horizon.
The Sheep of Bozrah
http://endtimepilgrim.org/bozflight.htm
At the time of Jacob's trouble [the Great Tribulation], God will preserve a remnant of Jacob, the sheep of Bozrah.
Isaiah 46:3-4
3 Listen to me, O House of Jacob,
And all the remnant of the House of Israel,
Who have been carried by me from the belly,
Whom I carried from the womb.
4 Until you grow old I AM the One.
And until you turn gray I will carry you.
I have done this from your beginning, and I will continue to bear you until the end;
I will rescue you, and carry you to safety.
Micah 2
12. I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee;
I will surely gather the remnant of Israel;
I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah,
As the flock in the midst of their fold:
they shall make great noise
by reason of the multitude of men.
Quote'cooking up' is kind of a pejorative term, but what tells you that something is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages? These passages will often have characteristics that might conform to what has already happened, but then you see an element that has not yet happened, and how do you explain that?
So there you have the question: "What tells you that somethig is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages?" The only answer I know is hard and expensive-to-somebody work of searching Bible Commentaries and theological journals. Maybe you live near a Seminary library or a wealthy Pastor. I know of a work by B. or D. Barton-Payne called
Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy that professes to lists all the prophecies of the Bible and when, where and by whom fulfilled.
Quote from: reFORMer on August 14, 2012, 05:18:20 AM
Quote'cooking up' is kind of a pejorative term, but what tells you that something is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages? These passages will often have characteristics that might conform to what has already happened, but then you see an element that has not yet happened, and how do you explain that?
So there you have the question: "What tells you that somethig is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages?" The only answer I know is hard and expensive-to-somebody work of searching Bible Commentaries and theological journals. Maybe you live near a Seminary library or a wealthy Pastor. I know of a work by B. or D. Barton-Payne called Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy that professes to lists all the prophecies of the Bible and when, where and by whom fulfilled.
Are you saying this is something impossible to do ourselves? We have the Bible, and pretty much have access to history.
What about the prophecy about Damascus? for instance.
I don't need a seminary to study theology. Why prophecy?
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2012, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: PaulThe Jews will never allow a Muslim to spend 3 1/2 years offering sacrifices inside the Holy of Holies of their temple, it is for precisely this reason I am presenting the concept of a future Israeli takeover of borders to its' north extending even into Turkey.
Not sure the Jews would have much to say about it.
Initially the Jews in Israel will have a lot to say about it, as I pointed out they are the most dominant military power in the Middle East & there is no hint they are about to go through a demise any time soon. They could topple Iran right now if they wanted to, Turkey being a member of NATO would be a more troublesome situation, but presently Israel doesn't have the kind of animosity stemming from Turkey as from Iran or Syria.
It won't surprise me at all to see some kind of NATO action co-ordinated with Israel that causes Syria to tumble & possibly fulfill that long standing prophecy about Damascus that has yet to be fulfilled.
Quote from: reFORMer on August 14, 2012, 05:18:20 AM
Quote'cooking up' is kind of a pejorative term, but what tells you that something is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages? These passages will often have characteristics that might conform to what has already happened, but then you see an element that has not yet happened, and how do you explain that?
So there you have the question: "What tells you that somethig is re-tread or not from already fulfilled passages?" The only answer I know is hard and expensive-to-somebody work of searching Bible Commentaries and theological journals. Maybe you live near a Seminary library or a wealthy Pastor. I know of a work by B. or D. Barton-Payne called Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy that professes to lists all the prophecies of the Bible and when, where and by whom fulfilled.
Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2012, 07:35:57 AM
Are you saying this is something impossible to do ourselves? We have the Bible, and pretty much have access to history.
"No Scripture is of private interpretation;" so, I would assume it isn't something we do all on our own. All this "access" is due to other people's work. Most don't exercise their right of access to knowledge, relying on what has been handed down to them by those who surround them. If there is a specific root to the problem, it is the people who made up dispensational eschatology for
The Scofield Reference Bible, Arno Gaebelein in particular, who borrowed a lot from Jewish apocalyptic expectations which avoid the Christian view of fulfilled prophecy. As well, a lot of the preachers of the late 1800's 'til now are not very well read. You remember Peter warning about those who are, "Unlearned and unstable?" Peter was referring to Paul's letters, "...in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3
16 CLT)
Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2012, 07:35:57 AM
What about the prophecy about Damascus? for instance.
If there's something future to Damascus prophecies, fine. You know the ancient nations Israel displaced were something like our cities and towns. Our mayors are something like what they called a king. I would check on the underlying language to find out what's being said before gettin' up a hooten-nanny over finding something in a lax translation.
Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2012, 07:35:57 AM
I don't need a seminary to study theology. Why prophecy?
I referred to a Seminary LIBRARY. It is to access books that record connections between historical events and Biblical prophecy. Ordinary public libraries seem to have pretty slim pickin's when it comes to Biblical studies, though you could try some kind of historical search, particularly after finding the prophecy connection. It seems the Barton-Payne book and its references would be the best key to fulfilled prophecy I know of. A lot of Seminaries would have few, if any, works deemed preterist. They seem to be extra expensive anyway. Particular Seminary libraries you could expect to be expunged of certain materials. The book
Rapture by Valvrud has quotes, referenced in the back, to books not in Dallas Theological Seminary library at the time Valvrud was the head of the Seminary and writing his book.
I know people who brag that they don't read these "other" books. God will give them the true interpretation. They don't go to man to find out what God is talking about. Of course, they forget the man of their own heart.
Quote from: ReformerIf there's something future to Damascus prophecies, fine. You know the ancient nations Israel displaced were something like our cities and towns. Our mayors are something like what they called a king. I would check on the underlying language to find out what's being said before gettin' up a hooten-nanny over finding something in a lax translation.
Any translation you pick seems pretty clear to me.
A prophecy against Damascus:
"See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
and left to flocks, which will lie down,
with no one to make them afraid.
3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim,
and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the Israelites,"
declares the Lord Almighty.
12 Woe to the many nations that rage —
they rage like the raging sea!
Woe to the peoples who roar —
they roar like the roaring of great waters!
13 Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters,
when he rebukes them they flee far away,
driven before the wind like chaff on the hills,
like tumbleweed before a gale.
14 In the evening, sudden terror!
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us.
--Isa 17
In the evening, sudden terror. Before the morning, they are gone!
Does it get any clearer than that?
Arno Gaebelein and Jewish expectations.
Does it get any clearer than that?
Psalm 83 end time confederacy
O God, do not remain silent;
do not turn a deaf ear,
do not stand aloof, O God.
2 See how your enemies growl,
how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
4 "Come," they say, "let us destroy them as a nation,
so that Israel's name is remembered no more."
5 With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot's descendants.
--Psa 93
The Psalm 83 war.
http://www.bibleprophecywatchmen.com/index.php/prophecies/89-upcoming-psalms-83-war-by-bill-salus
Tents of Edom = Palestinians and So. Jordanians
Ismaelites = Saudis
Moab = Palestinians and Central Jordanians
Hagrites = Hagarenes-Egyptians
Gebal = Hezbollah and No. Lebanese
Ammon = Palestinians and No. Jordanians
Amelek = Arabs of the Sinai Area
Philistia = Hamas of the Gaza Strip
Tyre = Hezbollah and S. Lebanese
Assyria = Syrians and No. Iraqi's
Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Gaza, Palestinians
Quote from: reFORMer on August 14, 2012, 12:18:35 PM
Arno Gabelein and Jewish expectations.
Does it get any clearer than that?
Maybe you could clarify.
Quote from: reFORMer on August 14, 2012, 11:24:09 AM
If there is a specific root to the problem, it is the people who made up dispensational eschatology for The Scofield Reference Bible, Arno Gabelein in particular, who borrowed a lot from Jewish apocalyptic expectations which avoid the Christian view of fulfilled prophecy. As well, a lot of the preachers of the late 1800's 'til now are not very well read. You remember Peter warning about those who are, "Unlearned and unstable?" Peter was referring to Paul's letters, "...in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 316 CLT)
The above brief explanation (about dispensational eschatology) surrounding Arno Gaebelein is from only a few posts back, #67.
Since you won't elaborate beyond this:
who borrowed a lot from Jewish apocalyptic expectations which avoid the Christian view of fulfilled prophecy
and, since I don't know if these Jewish expectations are based on the OT or not, I'll just say that for the Jews, the story is not over, not because they are misreading their Bible, or because they missed their Messiah, but because it was intended by God that they do so in order to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles, at which time, those Jews intended to be brought into the kingdom, will be.
So, it appears to me that they didn't miss anything. It has not been fulfilled for them, yet. And, why should I, as a Christian, ignore this fact? If the story is not over for them, it's not over for us, either.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11
I'll attempt to share a little more about Gaebelein, other than correcting the spelling of his name, when I am able. Forgive me, but I'm also reconsidering my use of time here. I don't have to go down the rabbit trails everybody else wants me to, studying for their convenience, at their whim (which seems to be happening not just here, but all over the place elsewhere in my life when I'm not at tentmaker.) Forgive me please if I seem to be requiring the same from you.
You certainly don't have to think like me to have God love and accept you, nor for me to accept you either. But, as for working for others casual interests, as an example: if you can't respond on what I wrote about the use of the concept "instantaneous" in the rapture doctrine, does that mean you're going to continue thinking that way regardless of so little evidence, rather than consider the possibility God is saying something else? I'm open to it. It does seem the body of Christ eventually comes to a synchronicity: those who've already entered, the raised dead and those that remain. However, our coming into total victory seems to happen across a generation (forty years) with a couple of prior days (each twenty years long) of preparation, making the third day be the commencement of Jesus' Generation. And, with no direct statements of scripture to quote for any of the other points I enumerated, you just posting some lengthy passages...well, why beat a dead horse?!
I think God made us to amount to something. Even if, for the entire human race, it isn't much from one perspective, "They all go up in the balance," it is of great value from another point of view. Any one of us, our words are meant to be purified and anointed so they make a difference for having been spoken. Being, "...imitators of God as dear children," means I should come to where, if I say, "Light, be!" then, "Light is." If it ain't happenin' maybe I should find some other darkness into which to speak. Or, am I being just too serious? Life's too short to unnecessarily drag out distress, anguishing to no avail over what others disregard. Rather than a state of prolonged misery, I seek to be filled with the glory of God. That is wherein we change, "From glory to glory." That is being full of the Holy Spirit. That is a state of bliss.
Reformer, of course you don't have to go down 'the rabbit hole' at another's whim. Since you are the one who brought up the rabbit hole to begin with, I assumed maybe you would want to develop it more. But, if you don't, that's fine with me.
I don't understand why we have to agree on anything in this thread. Prophecy is a topic that has fostered many historical disagreements in the church. So why should we suddenly have to agree or even be able to talk to each other about it? We clearly are not communicating, and I am having trouble even understanding what you are saying at any given time. I think I have answered you and it turns out I have not in your regard. So what can we do? Why can't we just co-exist and parallel play. We seem to agree on other threads about things, but I never feel compelled to agree just for the sake of being agreeable. On the other hand, neither do I want to foster an environment that you are somehow feeling hostile towards, either. From what you've said, I am assuming you believe all prophecy has been fulfilled--but you really aren't required to set me straight on that, either.
The bottom line for me is that prophecy is suddenly opening up for me. I'm realizing that it's all about Israel and the middle east from this time forward. I feel like I am seeing it play out in front of my eyes, and very quickly. All of a sudden, all sorts of passages in the Bible [it is 25 percent prophecy] are making sense that never made sense to me before. Christians read these passages in the Old Testament, and often have no idea where these places are in the modern world, or what peoples are being talked about. Once you are able to place ancient names on modern places, these prophetic passages start to light up.
So, now I am reading Daniel and Isaiah and Zechariah and a picture is forming in my mind of what they are saying about events that will occur at the end of the age. The invasion of Israel by Muslim armies is something I never before connected with, the destruction of certain Muslim countries like Egypt, Arabia, and parts of Syria--this is what these prophets are describing. They are describing coalitions of countries that will come against other countries, and telling us the outcome.
We're all familiar how three great religions are fighting over Jerusalem for the last 2000 years, but what will be the outcome? It is described in detail by God's prophets.
God has picked a people, as well as a territory, to make himself known to the world. I am reading it completely literally, as you know. I believe we will see these things play out the way they are described by the Prophets. That doesn't make me a prophet myself. Nor does it make me correct in my interpretation of what they are saying.
To have a dialogue about that you have to think it is real and it is happening now, and I appreciate that many do not agree or even understand enough to take a position one way or another.
But, my feeling now is that the end of the age will be all about Israel, the Middle East, and the Jews, our brothers who were blinded for our sake, and who will now be brought into the family of Christ through the Great Tribulation, as the mystery of the fullness of the Gentiles is completed.
Does anyone else have to agree with that? Nope. I know there are plenty of people outside of the board who do.
So why can't we just agree to disagree, and you can represent your interpretation and I can represent mine? I have no problem with that. Any meeting of minds on prophecy is a huge bonus that I rarely expect to find. But, once it has played itself out, hindsight will be 20/20.
"Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. Mat 24:32
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Isaiah 528-10 (KJV)
[8] Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. [9] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. [10] The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God
I agree we should share without requiring one another to agree if that is the best we can do. It is certainly way ahead of needing to keep silent because our disagreement becomes disgruntlement.
I don't see any basis for laying a modern map over ancient places named as in Psalm 83 and then claiming this is a revelation of a last days confederacy. If Scripture stated something like that it would validate it, but nothing of the sort is said there from what I can find. There are certain parallels, but to publish those as verifying such a practice is not promoted by any teaching in the Word that I've found or been shown. To futureize ancient prophecies, most of which have been fulfilled, is not being faithfull to God's Word.
I thought I should mention I'm not a full preterist when I previously referred to preterist books. My intent in that was how to find what Bible prophecies have credibly been fufilled, how, by whom and when. After some years and various authors I'm convinced Matthew 24 happened in 70 AD. "This generation shall not pass until all these signs taken together shall be fulfilled, " is what Jesus says.
Who the chosen people are is proved by God giving them the Holy Spirit. His "eklessia" is at the center of His work in the soon expected to occur transition into the Millenium, the Age of Tabernacles. For the near at hand future (eschatology) I believe in what has been called "The Manifestation of the Sons of God," rather than, "The Rapture." For the distant future (teliology) I believe in the salvation of all, rather than eternal torment.
This is an overview of middle east prophecy by Bill Salas given in Nov, 2011.
His conclusion is that the Psalm 83 war will happen first, during which Israel will expand her borders, dwelling safely until the outbreak of the Ezekiel 38 war. He indicates that the Arab spring events in the countries surrounding Israel are leading up to this first war mentioned in Psa 83.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ7J_IC-3tg
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21
I believe many things have already been fulfilled ("partial preterist").
I also believe there are many things yet to occur. My problem is, I think it's hard to know exactly which is which;
"The latest threats by Iran's Ahmadinejad — and Hezbollah's vow to turn Israel into 'a real hell' — come as Israeli officials weigh the risks of launching pre-emptive strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities." - Fox News :dontknow:
\
I do believe this all ends in the Prince of Peace's righteousness coving the earth, as the waters cover the sea.
Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2012, 09:27:32 AM
I believe many things have already been fulfilled ("partial preterist").
I also believe there are many things yet to occur. My problem is, I think it's hard to know exactly which is which;
"The latest threats by Iran's Ahmadinejad — and Hezbollah's vow to turn Israel into 'a real hell' — come as Israeli officials weigh the risks of launching pre-emptive strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities." - Fox News :dontknow:
\
I do believe this all ends in the Prince of Peace's righteousness coving the earth, as the waters cover the sea.
I believe the whole of prophecy has been fulfilled. The only things we are awaiting are the resurrection and the restitution of all things.
It has taken over a decade to move from partial preterist to where I am now. Long journey. I embraced UR must faster, as it made complete sense to me (especially with growing up with parents in the ministry, attending Seminary, and, most of all, being raised in the SBC). Hell never made sense to me, but the prophetic books of the bible made less sense. I found it easy enough to come to terms with the knowledge that there is no hell, but I struggled mightily to understand preterism (it still, to this day, sounds a tad bit heretical to my Soutern Baptist roots).
Regardless of how one views eschatology, we all know who wins in the end (and was already the winner in the beginning ).
Some things I'm sorting out...
If the 'Great Tribulation' [last 3 1/2 years] is also the time of Jacob's trouble, and if the 'Rapture' happens right before this time which will end with the Ezekiel 38 war, that means that the Jews would be alone without their Christian [allies] brothers to face the Muslim opposition. I could maybe see them building the Temple at that time, once the church is gone, in a [misguided] attempt to restore their OT religion and lean more heavily on God.
I think it's more likely, though, that they would see that the Christians were right all along, and that Jesus was their Messiah, and convert, thereby becoming the sheep of Bozrah--the sheep from another pen.
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. John 10:16
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Eze 37:19
The 'rapture' of the church [and manifestation of the sons of God] .
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12
Satan cast to earth and is revealed as the Antichrist--attacks Israel and Jews everywhere.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Rev 12
end time flight [last 3.5 years] of the elect remnant from Israel to Bozrah--"the woman":
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12
Jesus will deliver his sheep of another pen from Bozrah--at the second coming--the endtime remnant from Jacob.
I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah,
As the flock in the midst of their fold:
they shall make great noise
by reason of the multitude of men.
13. The breaker is come up before them:
they have broken up,
and have passed through the gate,
and are gone out by it:
and their king shall pass before them,
and the LORD on the head of them.
-Mic. 2:12-13
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11
This morning, the pleasures of viewing he rising mists winding their way up from the valley floor on a cool summer morning just before the sunrise, is God telling me "welcome to my morning".
The biggest problem I see with viewpoints on how prophecy will be fulfilled is often a "generational thing". This is to say, all of us want it fulfilled in our lifetimes no matter what our age, so we shoehorn fit an interpretation that best fits into what is left of our expected lifetime. If you're 70 it is different than if you are 40.
All the above I have seen discussed at various mileposts in my life. I've learned to be careful on the kinds of emphasis that have been ascribed to certain passages of scripture where it is not particularly clear what the intent & focus really is all about.
I have seen expository synopses that secret revelations can be garnered form certain verses if we would just look at them a "certain way". Ps 83 being one of them in an attempt to identify the ten horns of the beast. The actual portent of this scripture are David's reminisces of his past in which he makes no allusions to the future. So one should start with what a passage clearly states, not with what some ambiguous interpretation wants it to be an explanation thereof because they can sell books about the latest fad in Bible prophecy.
My point being that we are not that close to the start of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy that we can clearly see how powers in the Middle East will restructure national boundaries. To me it is a complete mystery how 7 Jewish ecclesias in present day Islamic Turkey will come into existence & be the focal point of the messages of Revelation, but it will happen. For it to happen, Turkey as a nation must undergo a radical transformation of its' religion, that may be a lengthy process we won't see in our lifetimes, could be at least 50- 100 years from now at a minimum.
Events now occurring in the Middle East are only vaguely hinting at a transformational process that will lead up to the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, but as things stand today, we're not even close to that point. And because we're not that close is the reason there are so many different ideas on the process by which these prophecies will be fulfilled, & this is precisely the reason of the differences of opinions y'all are having above.
I obviously think we are close to the end of the age or I would have no interest in prophecy. It is sealed until the end, as Daniel is told by the angel Gabriel. So, like you said, we would be wasting our time.
You bring up a good point about those churches in Turkey. Do we have to wait for those same churches to be revived in those same places, which are currently ruins? Not necessarily. The churches are gone but we are given important information about that part of the world. It is the seat of Satan, and therefore we could expect it will remain so at the end of the age. We could also expect any Christians in that part of the world to be suffering the same pressures as the original churches. "Come out of her, my people." There are two women in Revelation, one who is the harlot and rides the beast, and the other who is clothed with sun and gives birth to the manchild.
Paul tells us specifically who these two women are, and we can also relate them directly to populations and religions in the present time using the OT.
For those of us who read it literally, it is a story about family.
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
---Gal 4
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
--Gal 4
Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2012, 12:36:41 AM
I obviously think we are close to the end of the age or I would have no interest in prophecy. It is sealed until the end, as Daniel is told by the angel Gabriel. So, like you said, we would be wasting our time.
And I understand your thinking that we are close to the end of the age. My point in my previous post being that we need to keep a more carefully scrutinizing eye on that "fig tree" that is Israel & the Jews living there. In all of Bible prophecy, one of the most perplexing issues revolve around those 7 Jewish ecclesias & how they are literally resurrected from the ashes in which they were founded during the Roman era of rule in the 1st century AD.
Daniel having been told to "seal up" his prophecies and hundreds of years later John the Revelator is unsealing those prophecies to seven Jewish ecclesias in a country which today is Muslim. This tells me dramatic events must yet happen in the Mid-east to create an environment for creation Jewish synagogues in that country. If there are no Jewish synagogues in those cities in the end time, then how does the message of the "sealed book" in Daniel become an "unsealed book" at the end times?
The message of Revelation is written solely to the seven ecclesias, the Christian church age is completely finished because by the time the message is delivered & received by the 7 ecclesias the rapture spoken of by the Apostle Paul has occurred just a very short time prior to their receiving the messages. But even though Christians are gone at the time the 7 ecclesias receive the messages, they can still observe the "fig tree" to discern how close the time of their rapture may be. It is for this reason I've been suggesting in previous postings that the figs on the tree are a long way from ripening, in fact I feel they have barely even begun to sprout.
Quote from: PaulThe message of Revelation is written solely to the seven ecclesias, the Christian church age is completely finished because by the time the message is delivered & received by the 7 ecclesias the rapture spoken of by the Apostle Paul has occurred just a very short time prior to their receiving the messages. But even though Christians are gone at the time the 7 ecclesias receive the messages, they can still observe the "fig tree" to discern how close the time of their rapture may be. It is for this reason I've been suggesting in previous postings that the figs on the tree are a long way from ripening, in fact I feel they have barely even begun to sprout.
Can you develop this for me a little bit more? You're looking at this in a way I've never looked at it before.
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2012, 12:39:57 AM
Quote from: PaulThe message of Revelation is written solely to the seven ecclesias, the Christian church age is completely finished because by the time the message is delivered & received by the 7 ecclesias the rapture spoken of by the Apostle Paul has occurred just a very short time prior to their receiving the messages. But even though Christians are gone at the time the 7 ecclesias receive the messages, they can still observe the "fig tree" to discern how close the time of their rapture may be. It is for this reason I've been suggesting in previous postings that the figs on the tree are a long way from ripening, in fact I feel they have barely even begun to sprout.
Can you develop this for me a little bit more? You're looking at this in a way I've never looked at it before.
In Thess 2-10 there is a persistent overt theme in Paul's message about the revealing of the man of sin & that he cannot make his appearance until something is removed & taken out of the way. This man of sin who will sit in the Jewish temple has a 7 year reign that cannot commence until the Body of Christ (Christians) is removed from the earth because it is the presence of those spirit filled people of the Body of Christ which is preventing Satan from taking over the world up to this point in human history.
The Body of Christ acts as the floodgates of a dam that for so long as that dam's floodgates remain closed Satan's forces cannot overwhelm the world. When the Body of Christ is removed the floodgates open & Satan's forces can flood the world & the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy commences its' fulfillment.
Probably within 24 hours of the removal of the Body of Christ from the Earth, the opening (unveiling) of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy is read inside the 7 Jewish ecclesias, probably occurs on a Sabbath day. Don't forget, the entirety of the message is to whom?
To the 7 ecclesias only, not to anyone else! The contents of the letters are
not intended to warn the world of coming events,
only to warn the 7 Jewish ecclesias of the events about to come upon the world.
Do you see my point above? If the Christian church (Body of Christ) is no longer present on the earth, the message cannot possibly include them as recipients of the message of Daniel's 70th week of prophecy because they are not here. The book of Daniel today is rejected by Judaism & never referenced to in their synagogue services, but suddenly the veil hiding the meaning of Daniel's prophecy will be lifted from the eyes of all Jews & Israel, and it begins in these 7 synagogues the day after Christians of the Body of Christ are removed from planet Earth, then the message will spread through all of Judaism around the world within a short period of time.
But prior to the time all the above described occurs, we must see radical transformation in Turkey before there can be an environment conducive for the construction of the 7 synagogues. Presently, for Jews to build new synagogues inside an established Muslim nation is unheard of, sure there are a few tiny ones inside Morocco, and two or three other places of Islamic culture & even a few presently in Turkey, but they are not new ones, they are old & on the verge of dissolution.
Am I addressing what you were asking me to expand on?
Yes, thank you, but I'm still having difficulties. I agree with you completely about the man of sin [Antichrist] being held back until the church of Christ is removed [the 'rapture,']. But, I see this as happening 3.5 years or more into the 7 year reign of the Antichrist. In other words, he is reigning but no one sees the depths of his perversion until the last 3.5 years, which is called the 'Great Tribulation.' So, right now, I'm seeing that happening well into the sounding of the trumpets, and as late as the sixth trumpet.
Whereas you are saying the trumpets don't even sound while the Christian church is on the earth, or, in other words, the whole book of Revelation is written to the Jews. But, we don't see the two witnesses witnessing to the Jews until the sixth trumpet.
I can't say that I have an argument against what you are saying at the moment, except that, if you are right, I should fold up this tent of the prophecy thread and silently steal away. lol
And, I'm not about to do that yet.
So for now I'll just go on considering that the 7 churches are each a type of church that exist right now rather than actual churches in the actual locations in Turkey.
I do know of Christian churches where the laity also worships Satan, for instance.
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2012, 11:26:04 AM
So for now I'll just go on considering that the 7 churches are each a type of church that exist right now rather than actual churches in the actual locations in Turkey.
I do know of Christian churches where the laity also worships Satan, for instance.
You see, I am using only the Bible to discover explanations of any of other of its' written words. There is nothing in Revelation that expresses that these "are each a type of church that exist right now" within Christendom. If you think so, then point to the scripture that explains these 7 ecclesias are somehow a "type" of Christian church. Don't forget, these 7 ecclesias are not in existence until just a short time before the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy commences.
I'll be the first to agree with that there are Christian churches where the laity worships Satan, and now we have it here in the last 7 years of human history God is finally beginning to deal with it inside these 7 Jewish ecclesias......and then it spreads to the rest of the world's religions ......about time if you ask me!!!
Turkey: Christians Despised
Four years after the brutal murders of three Christians at a publishing house in Malatya, Turkey, attitudes toward Christians in Turkey have become even less favorable. According to a new report from the Turkish Association of Protestant Christians, the Christian minority in Turkey suffer discrimination, slander, personal attacks and attacks against churches on a daily basis.
Legal changes that followed Turkey's bid to become a full member of the European Union made it possible for non-Muslims to found places of worship in Turkey. In practice, however,"negative attitudes of civil servants" pose substantial barriers to non-Muslims, especially Protestants, who want to establish places of worship. Local officials often refuse to issue licenses to new churches; last year, three churches faced legal problems relating to their buildings.
Missionary activities are still considered a national threat, despite the existence of Turkish laws that guarantee citizens the freedom to teach and propagate their faith. In addition, Christian parents have reported that schools are not allowing them to withdraw their children from Islamic teaching, even though authorities, in principle, permit them to do so.
Christians had hoped that national outrage at the murders of the three Christians in Malatya would prompt officials to take a stronger stand against religious intolerance. Necati Aydin, Ugur Yuksel and Tilmann Geske were tortured and murdered in April 2007. The trial for their killers drags on as prosecutors try to tie the case to a larger conspiracy against the Turkish government. Twenty people were arrested in connection with the case in simultaneous raids on March 17, according to Christian Solidarity Worldwide.
The threat of violence against Christians remains. Last week, Turkish media reported that police had detained two teenagers on suspicion of plotting to murder a church leader in Istanbul, according to Compass Direct News.
Sources: Release International, Compass Direct News, Christian Solidarity International.
Posted: March 28, 2011
http://www.persecution.com/public/newsroom.aspx?story_ID=MzU2
Turkey has experienced political turmoil from the struggle between secular proponents, urban moderates and rural Islamist forces vying for government control. The country has been officially secular since 1924, but 97 percent of the population is Muslim. Questions about the role of religion in society dominate public discourse. The current president is a proponent of political Islam, and there are few signs that Turkey will soon embrace true religious freedom. Thirty-seven of the 60 people groups in Turkey are unreached by the gospel.
Category: Hostile Nation
Religion: Muslim 96.6%, Christian 0.2%
Ideology: Islam
Head of State: President Abdullah Gul
Despite government claims and a constitutional guarantee of religious freedom, Christians do not enjoy freedom of religion in many areas. Politicians, police, Islamic secularists and the growing Islamist movement are hostile to Christianity, and foreign missionaries are seen as a threat and denied visas. Local officials often refuse to issue licenses to new churches. Recently, persecution has increased. Christians frequently experience discrimination, slander, personal attacks and attacks against churches. In 2010, police detained two teenagers suspected of planning to murder a church leader in Istanbul. In March 2010, 20 people were arrested in connection with the 2007 murders of three men, including one German missionary, at a Christian publishing house in Malatya. Five other suspects are being tried in the Malatya murder case.
FACTBOX: Christians in Turkey
Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:46pm EST
(Reuters) - Turkey is overwhelmingly Muslim but hosts several ancient Christian communities -- dwindling remnants of sizeable populations that prospered for centuries in the Muslim-led but multi-ethnic, multi-faith Ottoman Empire.
They include Syriac Christians, Greek Orthodox, Armenians and Catholics. Modern Turkey was founded as a secular republic by Kemal Mustafa Ataturk on the empire's ashes in 1923.
Here are some details about Christians in Turkey:
* SOME HISTORY:
-- At the beginning of World War One, Christians still made up 20 percent of the population. However in May 1915, Ottoman commanders began mass deportation of Armenians from eastern Turkey thinking they might assist Russian invaders.
-- Thousands were marched from the Anatolian borders toward Syria and Mesopotamia (now Iraq) and Armenians say some 1.5 million died either in massacres or from starvation or deprivation as they were marched through the desert. There are some 70,000 Armenians left in Turkey. Turkey says large numbers of both Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks were killed during the violent and chaotic break-up of the Ottoman Empire. The number of Christians has now fallen to around 100,000 in a total population of more than 70 million.
OTHER POPULATIONS:
-- Syriacs number 20,000, the majority living in Istanbul. Syriacs migrated throughout the 20th century to Europe, fleeing first from persecution by the new secular republic, and later, from violence between Kurdish separatists rebels and the Turkish military in the southeast. Syriac Christians speak a form of Aramaic, the language of Jesus. They are not an officially designated minority in Turkey like the Greeks or Armenians, so have no special protection for rights such as private education under the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne's provisions for non-Muslim minorities.
-- Istanbul is the ancient seat of Orthodox Christianity but Greek Orthodox, who make up 20,000 of the population, often complain of discrimination and prejudice. Istanbul, the former Constantinople, was capital of the Greek-speaking Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire for centuries until it fell to Muslim Ottoman Turks in 1453.
-- Turkey's 30,000 Catholics hope the government will return the St. Paul church, which was confiscated by the state in 1943, to Christian worshippers. It is used now as a museum.
-- St. Paul, the great evangelizer of the early Christian Church, was born in Tarsus in modern-day Turkey and Pope Benedict proclaimed 12 months of events to honor him in June 2008.
-- Pope Benedict made a sensitive, fence-mending visit to Turkey in November 2006 after he had sparked protests from the Muslim world with a speech that Muslims said portrayed Islam as a religion tainted by violence and irrationality.
-- He was praised for visiting Istanbul's famed Blue Mosque and praying there facing toward Mecca "like Muslims."
PROPERTY AND THEOLOGICAL DISPUTES
-- Under a reform long sought by the European Union that Ankara hopes to join, Turkey's parliament approved last year a law aimed at boosting the property rights of non-Muslim minorities. Turkish authorities have expropriated millions of dollars worth of property belonging to Christians or their churches, especially the Greek Orthodox, over the decades. The law would allow foundations to re-acquire some confiscated properties but not those sold on to third parties -- something that is unlikely to satisfy Christian communities. The EU has urged Turkey to create a comprehensive legal framework that allows all religious groups unrestricted freedom to operate. By law, Syriacs must attend state schools where teaching is in Turkish, but they can be taught about their own language and religion outside school hours. Brussels has raised concerns over restrictions on the training of Christian clergy in Turkey.
ATTACKS ON CHRISTIANS:
-- Turkey's Christian community has been targeted in a spate of attacks over several years, prompting concern among human rights groups and the European Union.
-- The stabbing of an Italian Catholic priest in 2007 highlighted the attacks. Also in 2007, three Christians were killed at a Bible-publishing house at the Zirve publishing house in Malatya, a city in the country's southeast region.
-- Andrea Santoro, another Italian Catholic priest, was shot dead in the Turkish Black Sea city of Trabzon in 2006.
-- Prominent Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was killed in January 2007 in Istanbul by a young nationalist gunman. A prosecutor last month indicted a colonel for failing to provide protection for Dink, who had received death threats.
Sources: Reuters/World Christian Encyclopaedia/britannica
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/01/22/us-religion-turkey-christians-factbox-idUSTRE50L08O20090122
Biblical Prophecy - Turkey (Gomer) Rising from a dormant sleep
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4QqrvSEDJg
Uploaded by TheMaverickChristian on Oct 9, 2011
Over 2,600 years ago, the prophet Ezekiel foretold of a day when a coalition of nations would gather together to invade the nation of Israel. Known as Gog and his hordes, this coalition will attack at a time when Israel is recovering from a recent war and residing in a relatively peaceful state.
Notice that this attack occurs "after the return of her people from many lands," an indication that this attack will be directed toward the modern state of Israel (whose people have been re-gathered in just such a way), and is not a reference to a past war or a war in the distant future.
The details of this future battle are found in the Book of Ezekiel, Chapters 38 and 39:
"And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts [of armour, even] a great company [with] bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: [and] many people with thee."
Ezekiel 38:1-6
The nations cited by Ezekiel are each referenced here by the names of their Old Testament predecessors, yet they all represent nations which exist today.
The other nations referenced in Ezekiel 38 are identified below, with the original Hebrew translation listed first, followed by its modern day equivalent:
Magog, Meshech, and Tubal = Caucasus Area
Persia = Iran
Cush = Sudan and Somalia
Put = Libya
Gomer = Turkey
Beth-togarmah = Turkey, Armenia, and the Turkish-speaking people of Asia Minor
After all, a significant number of Islamic radicals reside in each one of these countries, but while Russia, (Caucasus Area) Iran, and Libya have a recent track record of antagonizing the West - and Israel in particular - the modern nation of Turkey does not. In fact, Turkey is a member of NATO, a candidate for inclusion in the European Union, and is considered by many to be the world's most successful Islamic democracy. Its past relationship with Israel has been one of friendly cooperation. Recent history simply does not indicate that Turkey has cause to attack Israel.
As a result, the question of Turkey?s complicity in the Gog/Magog invasion has baffled prophecy scholars until recent years, as many have had little reason to believe Turkey would join such a coalition.
Yet today's headlines indicate a marked increase in friction between the nation of Turkey and its supposed ally Israel. As Islamic radicalism has enjoyed political success in recent years, Turkey is becoming more and more anti-Western in its foreign policy. And its hardline Islamic leadership's shared disdain for Israel may well be the deciding factor which drives it into the arms of the Gog/Magog alliance.
I don't think we have different Bibles. I am unaware of anything written in scripture saying that the 7 Eklessias in (pro-consular) Asia in the days "Revelation" was written are to be understood as Jewish Synagogues yet in our future. This again is one of the more difficult things to proove: that something is NOT written. NO EVIDENCE, that nothing is said to this effect in The Word of God, means if you put it in His mouth, you've put a lie in His mouth, feigning that He says it when He doesn't. You are puting yourself in a dangerous place.
Similar objections concerning Psalm 83 seem unavailing. Alexander the Great (around 300+ yrs. before Christ) destroyed Tyre in detailed fulfillment of Bible prophecy from about 500 yrs. previous. That Tyre would after be only a place for fishermen to dry their nets is present reality. However anybody turns Psalm 83's reference from hundreds of yrs. prior to those prophecies concerning Tyre into our present day Hezbollah and the S. Lebanese, it apparently is not with the Bible's help.
You do realize dipsinsationalists have said that the word "Rosh" used by scripture's Hebrew prophets stands for "Russia" to prove they are to invade Israel in our future? That would make "Rosh Shoshana" the Russian New Year.
The Region: Turkey trots toward Islamism – Barry Rubin – www.jpost.com
The spending, restrictions and anti-intellectual policies might undermine Turkish democracy, stability and economic progress.
The Turkish regime is gradually suppressing freedom as its society moves steadily toward a more hardline Islamic identity. Keep in mind that Turkey has been a very self-consciously modern and secular country. While there were always restrictions on freedom – especially regarding the expression of Kurdish nationalism – it was miles ahead of the usual Middle Eastern standards in that regard. And Istanbul was the ultimate expression of modern, secular Turkey.
Thus, a minor incident is of immense psychological importance. Here's one of many. A woman wearing sweatpants sought to board a public bus and a dozen or more passengers blocked her way. One man said, "Look at her. Her head is not covered, shame!" Nobody on the bus came to her defense and the driver did nothing.
Why is this especially significant? Because the implication is that head covering for women should be mandatory in public and that those who advocate such measures will use intimidation to achieve this goal, unafraid of any possible consequences. On the contrary, it is those who would advocate freedom of choice who are intimidated.
Then there's the new law requiring that every shopping mall, movie theater and indeed every public facility in the country have a Muslim prayer room. One newspaper columnist who ridiculed this idea wrote, "Have you ever heard any conservative or religious person in this country complaining: 'I can't live my religion if there are no [mosques] in opera or ballet houses?'"
In other words, such legislation is not happening because there is a burning need for such things but because the government is Islamizing the country. It should be pointed out that anyone who wants to pray could easily find an existing mosque not far away and, indeed, a dedicated room isn't even a requirement for Muslim prayer.
OF COURSE, it should be understood that the government is offering a lot of incentives for becoming not just a practicing Muslim but an Islamist. Consider. You want a high-level career, especially in government. Do you go to an academic high school with a tough curriculum or to an Islamic school which focuses not only on religion but on an Islamist interpretation?
The number of students attending such religious (imam-hatip) schools has tripled in 10 years, rising to seven percent. The gap is narrowing, especially true for "regular" students since enrollment at open admissions schools fell from 50% to about 25 percent. The rest go to selective schools (21%) or vocational schools (50%).
The government has now decreed that Islamic schools be accorded equal status with academic schools for purposes of admission to university and also that Islamic junior high schools will be established. These decisions will accelerate the relative growth of education that indoctrinates students with the regime's ideology.
THEN THERE'S Prime Minister Recep Erdogan's announcement that virtually all abortions will be banned, even if the woman was raped.
The court-authorized prosecution of a famous Turkish concert pianist, Fazil Say, for sending tweets critical of Islam is another sign of the times. So is the sentencing of a student to eight years' imprisonment solely for the crime of holding up a sign demanding free education at an Erdogan rally. So is the sentencing of a former top general to one year in prison for telling a villager in a personal conversation that the regime had sold out the country.
Most recently, the government has decreed that it will choose two-thirds of the Turkish Academy of Sciences' members. Until now, the existing members chose the new ones, and one-third of them resigned in protest.
Then there's the foreign policy realm, where there are also dozens of examples of the regime's Islamist orientation. The basic trend is anti-American, ferociously anti-Israel, and supporting Iran and radical Islamist movements. Despite differences with Tehran over Syria – the Turkish regime wants a Sunni Islamist government there; Iran wants to keep its allied incumbents in power – the two countries are constantly expanding their trade to hitherto unprecedented levels.
When a US airstrike against terrorists went astray and 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed, Erdogan quickly demanded a US apology and called the dead "our martyrs." It symbolized his eagerness to take the side of any Islamic country or movement against the United States. The Turkish regime has ignored, with US permission, the sanctions on Iran and the media in both countries is full of reports about their ever-tightening relations. The large portion of the Turkish media controlled by the regime systematically spreads anti- Americanism and public opinion polls show ever-rising hostility to the United States.
Toward Israel, the regime is so unrelentingly hostile that the leader of the opposition asked whether Erdogan intended to go to war against that country. It has now decided to file criminal charges against Israeli officials involved in the attempt to stop the ship Mavi Marmara from running the blockade on the Gaza Strip, a situation in which Turkish jihadists were killed after assaulting Israeli soldiers. It should be noted that the Turkish government was directly involved in working with a terrorist group – defined as such by the United States and Germany – in mounting that deliberate provocation.
Since then, Erdogan has had three non-negotiable demands: that Israel apologize, admitting it committed a crime; that reparations be paid to the families of the dead extremists on the basis of Israeli guilt; and that Israel stop all sanctions on the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip. In response, Israel offered to express regrets and pay compensation on a humanitarian basis. Erdogan has refused all compromise – as indicated especially by his third demand – and has no desire to settle the issue.
Erdogan's anti-Israel campaign has continued with such actions as insisting that NATO installations in Turkey not provide information to Israel, that Israel be excluded from joint maneuvers in which it formerly participated, and that Israel not be permitted to attend a NATO meeting and an international counter-terrorism conference. (The real problem with the counter-terrorism group is that the Obama administration made Turkey the co-director and didn't even include Israel as a member when it launched the project last September 11.)
I have no problem if individual Turks want to be more pious in their religious observance. The problem is that this quickly slides over into intolerance, repression, extremism and a radical foreign policy. Moreover, in the long run the spending, restrictions and anti-intellectual policies might undermine Turkish democracy, stability and economic progress.
This prophecy describes a coalition of named countries and peoples coming against the nation of Israel. There was no nation of Israel until 1948. It describes the countries in the coalition being destroyed by God. This also has not yet happened.
Psalm 83
A song. A psalm of Asaph.
1 O God, do not remain silent;
do not turn a deaf ear,
do not stand aloof, O God.
2 See how your enemies growl,
how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
4 "Come," they say, "let us destroy them as a nation,
so that Israel's name is remembered no more."
5 With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot's descendants.
9 Do to them as you did to Midian,
as you did to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon,
10 who perished at Endor
and became like dung on the ground.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb,
all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
12 who said, "Let us take possession
of the pasturelands of God."
13 Make them like tumbleweed, my God,
like chaff before the wind.
14 As fire consumes the forest
or a flame sets the mountains ablaze,
15 so pursue them with your tempest
and terrify them with your storm.
16 Cover their faces with shame, Lord,
so that they will seek your name.
17 May they ever be ashamed and dismayed;
may they perish in disgrace.
18 Let them know that you, whose name is the Lord —
that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.
Tyre can't come against Israel because it hasn't existed since the days of Alexander the Great. This is in accordance with God saying it would never again exist as a city/state. You're saying it still exists, only under another name?
Quote from: reFORMer on August 20, 2012, 04:00:54 PM
Tyre can't come against Israel because it hasn't existed since the days of Alexander the Great. This is in accordance with God saying it would never again exist as a city/state. You're saying it still exists, only under another name?
Tyre (Arabic: صور, Ṣūr; Phoenician: , Ṣur; Hebrew: צוֹר, Tzor; Tiberian Hebrew צר, Ṣōr; Akkadian: Ṣurru; Greek: Τύρος, Týros; Turkish: Sur; Latin: Tyrus)
is a city in the South Governorate of Lebanon. There were approximately 117,000 inhabitants in 2003,[1] however, the government of Lebanon has released only rough estimates of population numbers since 1932, so an accurate statistical accounting is not possible.[2]
Tyre is an ancient Phoenician city and the legendary birthplace of Europa and Elissa (Dido).
it is the fourth largest city in Lebanon[4] and houses one of the nation's major ports. Tourism is a major industry. The city has a number of ancient sites, including its Roman Hippodrome which was added to UNESCO's list of World Heritage Sites in 1979.[5]
Tyre was badly damaged in the late 1970s (Operation Litani) and early 1980s (1982 Lebanon War) during the war between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). The city was used as a base by the PLO, and was nearly destroyed by Israeli artillery.[23] After Israel's 1982 invasion of southern Lebanon, the city was the site of an Israeli military post. In late 1982, and again on November 1983, buildings housing Israeli headquarters were destroyed by bombs, causing dozens of deaths in both cases and known in Israel as the First and Second Tyre Catastrophes. The 1983 explosion, by a suicide truck, happened only 10 days after similar car bombs exploded in the US Marines and French paratroop barracks in Beirut. Israel and the US blame Iran and Hezbollah for all explosions, but they have denied any involvement.
During the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, several rocket-launching sites used by Hezbollah to attack Israel were located in rural areas around the city.[24] At least one village near the city was bombed by Israel, as well as several sites within the city, causing civilian deaths, and adding to the food shortage problem inside Tyre.[25] Israeli naval commandos also raided Hezbollah targets within the city.[26]
--Wikipedia
One word---HEZBOLLAH!
Psalms 83 references Edom.
Edom was completely absorbed into "Israel", even though "Israel" is not Israel. It mentions the son of the bondwoman too. Who is that? Jerusalem below.
So we have a country called Edom thats not actually Edom, attacking literal Edom aka "israel", which by the way was never the name of a country, the kingdom of Israel was where the king resided, and that included in the wilderness. But that was all a shadow of the reality which is now which is Christ in YOU.
Then we have a people Ishmael, which never had a region or country IIRC they were nomads. These people have been explicitly identified as a type of the natural man warring with the spiritual man. And that man is the son of the bondwoman, literal Jerusalem. Meaning that Edomites calling themselves Jews,( yet is a jew one outwardly?) are spiritually called Ishmaelites. These are going to be attacked by literal Ishmaelites or arabs?
:Chinscratch:
Edom was a country right below Israel to the South, which is now part of the country called Jordan, RHM.
Edom ( /ˈiː.dʌm/[1]; Hebrew: אֱדוֹם, Modern Edom Tiberian ʼĔḏôm ; "red"; Assyrian: Udumi; Syriac: ܐܕܘܡ) or Idumea (Greek: Ἰδουμαία, Idoumaía; Latin: Idūmaea) was a Semitic inhabited historical region of the Southern Levant located south of Judea and the Dead Sea. It is mentioned in biblical records as a 1st millennium BCE Iron Age kingdom of Edom,[2] and in classical antiquity the cognate name Idumea was used to refer to a smaller area in the same region. The name Edom means "red" in Hebrew, and was given to Esau once he ate the "red pottage", which the Bible used in irony at the fact he was born "red all over".[citation needed] (Genesis 25:30 KJV)
The Holy Bible and The Torah describe the Edomites as descendants of Esau, the eldest son of the Hebrew patriarch Isaac.
Biblical Edom
The Edomites' original country, according to the Tanakh, stretched from the Sinai peninsula as far as Kadesh Barnea. Southward it reached as far as Eilat, which was the seaport of Edom.[7] On the north of Edom was the territory of Moab.[8] The boundary between Moab and Edom was the Wadi Zered.[9] The ancient capital of Edom was Bozrah.[10] According to Genesis, Esau's descendants settled in this land after displacing the Horites. It was also called the land of Seir; Mount Seir appears to have been strongly identified with them and may have been a cultic site. In the time of Amaziah (838 BCE), Selah (Petra) was its principal stronghold,[11] Eilat and Ezion-geber its seaports.[12]
Genesis 36 lists the kings of Edom
--Wikipedia
Quote from: reFORMer on August 20, 2012, 03:37:58 PM
I don't think we have different Bibles. I am unaware of anything written in scripture saying that the 7 Eklessias in (pro-consular) Asia in the days "Revelation" was written are to be understood as Jewish Synagogues yet in our future. This again is one of the more difficult things to proove: that something is NOT written. NO EVIDENCE, that nothing is said to this effect in The Word of God, means if you put it in His mouth,
And in all the versions of the Bible I've seen, the Rev 2:9 message to the ecclesia at Smyrna is a warning of those within their congregation "who say they are Jews" but are actually of the "synagogue of Satan". How do you place the Christian church into that context?
Quote from: Paul L on August 20, 2012, 11:51:01 PM
And in all the versions of the Bible I've seen, the Rev 2:9 message to the ecclesia at Smyrna is a warning of those within their congregation "who say they are Jews" but are actually of the "synagogue of Satan". How do you place the Christian church into that context?
A jew is not one who is a jew outwardly is he? And circumcision is not of the flesh is it?
They were among the lampstands, perhaps as a Jewish
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 20, 2012, 10:38:03 PM
Psalms 83 references Edom.
Edom was completely absorbed into "Israel", even though "Israel" is not Israel. It mentions the son of the bondwoman too. Who is that? Jerusalem below.
So we have a country called Edom thats not actually Edom, attacking literal Edom aka "israel", which by the way was never the name of a country, the kingdom of Israel was where the king resided, and that included in the wilderness. But that was all a shadow of the reality which is now which is Christ in YOU.
Then we have a people Ishmael, which never had a region or country IIRC they were nomads. These people have been explicitly identified as a type of the natural man warring with the spiritual man. And that man is the son of the bondwoman, literal Jerusalem. Meaning that Edomites calling themselves Jews,( yet is a jew one outwardly?) are spiritually called Ishmaelites. These are going to be attacked by literal Ishmaelites or arabs?
:Chinscratch:
:2c:
The son of the bondwoman is Ishmael, also characterized by Paul in Galatians as a type of the law, seed sown into flesh(Hagar, earthly Jerusalem), then cast out to make room for the son of the free woman, Isaac from Sarah, seed sown in spirit according to promise - characterizing our mother, Jerusalem from above who is free. "Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples", upon Zion, the joy of the whole earth, the city of the Great King.
To me Tyre, Babylon, Sodom, earthly Jerusalem all fold in into "MYSTERY BABYLON, Sodom and Egypt, the mother of Harlots, WHEREIN OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED"- all just tines on the crown of her, the "city in whom righteousness once dwelt-but has now become a harlot"(Isaiah 1:21)
To me it all ties into earthly Jerusalem(masquerade) vs heavenly Jerusalem(reality)
There are churches in earthly Jerusalem(Mystery Babylon), and there are churches in heavenly Jerusalem (MYSTERY JERUSALEM).
Heavenly Jerusalem is "coming down out of heaven adorned as a Bride(revealed unto men)"
Thy kingdom come, your will be done, one earth AS IT IS in heaven
"The King's daughter is all glorious within"
As Jesus saying I am the bread of life "coming down out of heaven(revealed unto men)"
The churches in heavenly Jerusalem have Lampstands, "seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, wherein are all spiritual blessings"
The churches in earthly Jerusalem are gates to Sheol, open graves in the night and swallow men alive into there depths(of confusion/chaos/futility/carnality/obscuring the truth), they are passing away per 1 Corinthians 3:13-17- wood hay and stubble being CONSUMED BY THE DAY
The churches that are set upon Lampstand all have letters standing open for them, from the one who "walks among the Lampstands and holds the seven stars in His hands", If the spirit if the presbytery is listening, "Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirits saying to the churches".
I don't think there are many western churches on Lampstand, many never were, many get removed, many are "synagogues of Satan" :2c:
IMO, Little houses of love and soup kitchens are much more likely to bear His signet, than all the advertisers, batting their eyes at the world, posing as virgins while eating the unwary through the blinders of their systematic theologies, based on elementary principles and the rudiments of the world.
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (Col 2:8-10)
They are "losing hold upon the head".
Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. (Col 2:18-19)
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 21, 2012, 01:15:55 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 20, 2012, 11:51:01 PM
And in all the versions of the Bible I've seen, the Rev 2:9 message to the ecclesia at Smyrna is a warning of those within their congregation "who say they are Jews" but are actually of the "synagogue of Satan". How do you place the Christian church into that context?
A jew is not one who is a jew outwardly is he? And circumcision is not of the flesh is it?
Exactly :)
we know by scriptures that the Jews that were of the circumcision
Law of moses , but lacked the love for the bretheren , which is the royal law
Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised,
that they may glory in your flesh.
love is the greatest thing and is NEVER offended , knowing that those who offend and are still offended are still lacking the love of Christ in them to the full yet ! more work though suffering for the good because of evil is needed though faith and experiences , sifting process
1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so,
that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
treat others like you desire to be treated by doing good to them and judging what is right in the sight of God
Jer 5:28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.
Luk 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? 54 Then Jesus turned to the crowd and said, "When you see clouds beginning to form in the west, you say, 'Here comes a shower.' And you are right. 55 When the south wind blows, you say, 'Today will be a scorcher.' And it is. 56 You fools! You know how to interpret the weather signs of the earth and sky,
but you don't know how to interpret the present times.
57 "
Why can't you decide for yourselves what is right? 58 When you are on the way to court with your accuser, try to settle the matter before you get there. Otherwise, your accuser may drag you before the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, who will throw you into prison. 59 And if that happens, you won't be free again until you have paid the very last penny.
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
we are to praise God and be of a thankful heart always declaring the name of the Lord and His works
Good word Rose! I look forward to that day when His love is complete in me and there is no more offense in me. :) He is faithful, PTL!
Molly,
I know where literal Idumea was. But back then there were not really boundary markers for countries like we have today. The people of that tribe were Edomites. They were the sons of Esau. The hairy one, kind of like a beast. Edom just happens to be the exact same word as Adam. Spiritually they are the old man, just as Ishmael, and moab, and Egypt, and babylon, and Jerusalem.
But literally they are not a distinct people anymore. The so-called jews in Israel now are edomites. Edom was swallowed up by Israel back around the Mccabbees IIRC. Those people are assyrians, samaritans, edomites, and a small mix of actual Jewish blood, but that brings me back to the original point that those who consider themselves Israel according to the flesh are not, because Israel is not flesh. Jerusalem is not stone and grass and dirt.
p.s. I typed this out before I read Eaglesways post (moab,egypt,babylon)
Quote from: eaglesway on August 21, 2012, 02:09:36 AM
They were among the lampstands, perhaps as a JewishQuote from: redhotmagma on August 20, 2012, 10:38:03 PM
I don't think there are many western churches on Lampstand, many never were, many get removed, many are "synagogues of Satan"
Where can you find an example in this world, or Bible, of a Christian Church referred to as a "synagogue"?
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 21, 2012, 03:00:59 AM
Molly,
I know where literal Idumea was. But back then there were not really boundary markers for countries like we have today. The people of that tribe were Edomites. They were the sons of Esau. The hairy one, kind of like a beast. Edom just happens to be the exact same word as Adam. Spiritually they are the old man, just as Ishmael, and moab, and Egypt, and babylon, and Jerusalem.
But literally they are not a distinct people anymore. The so-called jews in Israel now are edomites. Edom was swallowed up by Israel back around the Mccabbees IIRC. Those people are assyrians, samaritans, edomites, and a small mix of actual Jewish blood, but that brings me back to the original point that those who consider themselves Israel according to the flesh are not, because Israel is not flesh. Jerusalem is not stone and grass and dirt.
p.s. I typed this out before I read Eaglesways post (moab,egypt,babylon)
Of course I understand your wish to spiritually interpret these things--although I don't think it's completely possible with prophecy because prophecy will play out literally in the end times just as it did in the time of Jesus.
But the prophet is writing thousands of years ago about a place called Jordan today, and the only way he has to describe it is by calling it Edom because that is what it is in the time he is writing about it. So he is shown it's location and shown events playing out and he describes it for us.
When OT prophecy told us that a son will be born to us and he will be the prince of peace was that just spiritual? No. A real flesh and blood man fulfilled that prophecy, although we all know it has also a spiritual component.
So if the prophet is talking about a coalition of countries, and one he names is Edom, and we ask where is that? The answer would be modern day Jordan which overlays the boundaries of ancient Edom.
I've read all kinds of things about Edomites themselves but I don't think it's necessary to go any further than this--Jordan will be one of the countries in confederacy against Israel during the Psalm 83 war.
Quote from: Paul L on August 21, 2012, 03:19:47 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 21, 2012, 02:09:36 AM
They were among the lampstands, perhaps as a JewishQuote from: redhotmagma on August 20, 2012, 10:38:03 PM
I don't think there are many western churches on Lampstand, many never were, many get removed, many are "synagogues of Satan"
Where can you find an example in this world, or Bible, of a Christian Church referred to as a "synagogue"?
To Smyrna
9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich!
I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor's crown. Rev 2
To Philadephia
I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. Rev 3
Paul I am getting the impression reading these passages that the synagogue of Satan is a separate entity from the churches which is persecuting the churches.
Over 100 replies---> diverse "opinions". I found all very interesting, very informative, some complex, some heartfelt (Rosered, thank you!)
I'm thinking that much of the diversity is based on whether one believes in physical or in spiritual fulfillment of the prophecies. I think there's enough evidence in the Scriptures to confirm both... in their own order. Please note, I didn't use the word "literal", I don't see it as a "literal vs spiritual" issue.
Another problem that I see is that within each camp (physical fulfillment or spiritual fulfillment) there can be misinterpretations of the Scriptures...
I take the Word of God literally... I don't always understand it fully-- but I believe...
Some of the lyrics from I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED are very meaningful to me:
I know not how this saving faith
To me He did impart,
Nor how believing in His Word
Wrought peace within my heart
I know not how the Spirit moves,
Convincing us of sin,
Revealing Jesus through the Word,
Creating faith in Him.
I think as well the scriptures have layers. In the end there is "the god of this age" and our God.
There is the "spirit that now moves in the sons of disobedience"
And there is the Spirit of God.
These underlie, as foundations, many other statements about gods, spirits, etc.
In Revelation, we see Babylon as the Mother of Harlots. And "in her is found ALL the blood of ALL the prophets and the saints martyred throughout the ages"- therefore, she includes the entire matrix/kosmos of false revelation and murder beginning with the religion of Cain.
Father of lies
Author of Confusion
God Of This World, "blinding the eyes of them who disbelieve".
I definitely think the "synagogue of Satan" reference in Rev 2 was, historically, the Jews who were persecuting the ecclesia of Christ. We know Paul was of that synagogue for awhile.
I don't think that in any way LIMITS what that says about THAT SPIRIT be it in a church, which is a synagogue as well- an assembly. You have "a name that lives but you are dead" also sounds like a parrallel statement to me.
"You tolerate that woman who calls herself a prophetess Jezebel to teach my people to eat meats sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication".
So, since the "synagogue of Satan" ("A synagogue of Satan"not "THE synagogue of Satan being referred to here was (imo) historically a sect of Jew- It definitely is a part of Mystery Babylon, which includes EVERY PERSECUTOR THAT HAS SHED INNOCENT BLOOD. As Jesus said to them "You are of your father(one father) the devil, who was a murderer from the beginning. You are guilty of all the blood of all the prophets from righteous Abel to Zecharia, who you slew between the porch and the altar(in the holy place)".
Then Jude says likewise- OF TEACHERS RISEN AMONG CHRISTIANS- "they have sinned the sin of Cain(hated and murdered the innocent), erred after Balaam's error(seducing the assembly into immorality for profit), and rebelled in the rebellion of Korah(despised the calling, choosing of God)"- all things we have seen in the Catholic Church, things committed by also Calvin, Knox and Luther IN THAT SAME SPIRIT. Persecutions murders over doctrine veiling ambitions and restraining the gospel by unrighteousness in the name of righteousness. Martyring children of Jesus IN THE NAME OF JESUS.
He compares them to principalities that LEFT THEIR PROPER ABODE. Became Arrogant And Forsook SERVICE in order to ACHIEVE DOMINION.
Truly, synagogues of Satan.
I think God is impartial and no respecter of persons and applies these same discerning principles at the foundational level to every assembly that departs from the way of Christ, persecutes the truth and puts blinders on men, serving the "god of this age" in order to serve themselves.
I'm beginning to understand something about most of the above commentary concerning the 7 so-called "churches" in Revelation. Most of the perspectives seem to center around their being Christian. Am I not correct?
The word "church" in the most commonly read versions is not derived from any word in the Greek language in which Revelation was written. The King James popularized this erroneous word "church" from the Latin Vulgate which uses the Latin language root word circ from which the English language derives its' words for circle & church, & circus. The Latin word circ does not even have the same definition as the the original Greek word ekklesia which is often anglicized to ecclesia. In Greek it means assembly or congregation, it is for this reason I always use the Greek derivative & not the Latin because the Latin does not accurately define the Greek word ekklesia (ecclesia).
With the above stated we can move on to the opening statements made by Christ himself in verse Rev1:1 "...to shew to his servants things which must shortly come to pass..." KJ, and most other versions read similarly. So, Christ himself is clearly stating everything he instructs John to write down is yet future, everything, no exceptions. But future to what point in time? Future to the time of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, which must include the 7 ecclesias because it is to them the message of the book is written. "John to the seven ecclesias which are in Asia..." vs 4, then following in vs10 John was propelled forward in time and "was in the spirit on the Lord's day", and in vs 11 was instructed to whom to write the messages "..write in a book & send it unto the seven ecclesias". No one else gets this message, only the 7 ecclesias.
When you read the word "church" in English, just automatically think the Greek word "ecclesia" to get the proper perspective of this word. The word "church" automatically insinuates a Christian perspective, but "ecclesia" suggests only a neutral perspective carrying no religious affiliation as does the word "church".
The message of Revelation to the 7 ecclesias occurs on the opening of the Lord's Day which is the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy which is now being unsealed after God told Daniel to "close it up" centuries before.
We know the 70th week is a prophecy to Daniel's people because it is so stated as a recurring theme in Daniel chapter 12. Then there is an unsealing of these words to Daniel's people at the "time of the end", vs 4 & 9. Now move forward to the opening of the Lord's day in Rev 1:10 at which time the 7 ecclesias receive an unveiling of the messages about the 70th week. How does the context of these prophecies to Daniel fast forwarded to the "day of the lord", have anything to do with the Christian church? The context is all about the Jewish people, there is absolutely no Christian church context to any of Daniel's prophecy, all context is only about Israel & Jews.
Because the contexts of Daniel's prophecy is written only to Israel & Jews of the endtime, why in the world would we expect Christ to send the unveiling messages written down by John then give them to Christian organizations that are not Jewish, makes no sense. If three of the four ecclesias are warned about congregants not being Jews all the while claiming the opposite, what religious culture is the focal point of discussion here? Certainly not Christian culture! How many Christian churches have you ever heard of who are concerned about non-Jews in their midst? Yet Christ is warning these ecclesias of just that problem.
I guess I've always assumed I was Daniel's 'people.'
And, that the only prophecies that would not directly relate to me are made to 'Jacob.' [i.e. the time of Jacob's trouble]
I do see a difference between the Christians and the end time Jews, but only until the Jews are converted--then both will become one--two sticks in one hand.
I was thinking the other day, the Christians know the Jews are their brothers, but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around.
The thing about Tyre...I don't have the time at the moment to pursue. I kinda don't like goin' after things that for some reason have come to bore me. It's not just to apply self-control and study the matter anyway. There are other more profitable interests I need to address.
It was something like 40 yrs. ago maybe that I read something about its destruction. The prophecy concerning it I heard or read a couple times before that. I remember a picture of the fishermen drying their nets on rock slabs there. It is in Isaiah 23 that this message resides. When I reviewed Is. 23 it doesn't seem like I remember. Maybe I'll look it up later. It was considered a very noteworthy fulfillment, what Alexander did in detail. So, I doubly don't feel very secure trusting wiki to provide reliable facts. I certainly won't use this unproven fulfillment until
I've covered the ground again.
So much of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled it doesn't seem I missing what's important when I understand God using these words to minister to my inner man. I'm certainly still retaining the text, which is what's important. God can draw my attention to some feature He wants me to understand in some certain way. It's His Word. I really find edification and the warmth of fellowship in what a few have been explaining of a more spiritual application in the last several posts. Good to hear the river of the water of life flowing forth from rosered as she tells of the goodness of God in her life.
Rightly understood, there is no warfare between an outer court, carnal, what they call literal interpretation and a more inward, spiritual and symbolic interpretation. They both have their place.
Personally, I'm just getting backed up with things undone. I need to share more about Gaebelein and another several points I intend to get to here, besides what I need to engage with here at home.
(Just a tid-bit from history...)
"Clarence Bass (Backgrounds, p.150) correctly argues that Scofield's 'synthesis of Darby's principles forms the core of continuing dipsinsational hermeneutics.' (cited on p.40 of Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth by John H. Gerstner, Ph.D. continuing...) One sub-editor who clearly did have a marked influence on Scofield was Arno C. Gaebelein. Indeed, it appears that the Scofield Bible's prophetic teachings were mainly those of Gaebelein."
(...to be picked up where I let off.)
Obama Administration's War on Persecuted Christians
by Raymond Ibrahim
Investigative Project on Terrorism
August 2, 2012
The Obama administration's support for its Islamist allies means lack of U.S. support for their enemies, or, more properly, victims—the Christian and other non-Muslim minorities of the Muslim world. Consider the many recent proofs:
According to Pete Winn of CNS:
The U.S. State Department removed the sections covering religious freedom from the Country Reports on Human Rights that it released on May 24, three months past the statutory deadline Congress set for the release of these reports. The new human rights reports—purged of the sections that discuss the status of religious freedom in each of the countries covered—are also the human rights reports that include the period that covered the Arab Spring and its aftermath. Thus, the reports do not provide in-depth coverage of what has happened to Christians and other religious minorities in predominantly Muslim countries in the Middle East that saw the rise of revolutionary movements in 2011 in which Islamist forces played an instrumental role. For the first time ever, the State Department simply eliminated the section of religious freedom in its reports covering 2011... (emphasis added).
The CNS report goes on to quote several U.S. officials questioning the motives of the Obama administration. Former U.S. diplomat Thomas Farr said that he has "observed during the three-and-a-half years of the Obama administration that the issue of religious freedom has been distinctly downplayed." Leonard Leo, former chairman of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, said "to have pulled religious freedom out of it [the report] means that fewer people will obtain information," so that "you don't have the whole picture."
Of course, censoring information is a regular theme under Obama: if the administration is suppressing knowledge concerning the sufferings of religious minorities under Islam, earlier it suppressed knowledge concerning Islam itself (see here for a surreal example of the effects of such censorship).
In "Obama Overlooks Christian Persecution," James Walsh gives more examples of State Department indifference "regarding the New Years' murders of Coptic Christians in Egypt and the ravaging of a cathedral," including how the State Department "refused to list Egypt as 'a country of particular concern,' even as Christians and others were being murdered, churches destroyed, and girls kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam. "
And the evidence keeps mounting. Legislation to create a special envoy for religious minorities in the Near East and South Central Asia—legislation that, in the words of the Washington Post, "passed the House by a huge margin," has been stalled by Sen. James Webb (D-Va):
In a letter sent to Webb Wednesday night, Rep. Frank Wolf [R-Va, who introduced the envoy bill] said he "cannot understand why" the hold had been placed on a bill that might help Coptic Christians and other groups "who face daily persecution, hardship, violence, instability and even death."
Yet the ultimate source of opposition is the State Department. The Post continues:
Webb spokesman Will Jenkins explained the hold by saying that "after considering the legislation, Senator Webb asked the State Department for its analysis." In a position paper issued in response, State Department officials said "we oppose the bill as it infringes on the Secretary's [Hillary Clinton's] flexibility to make appropriate staffing decisions," and suggested the duties of Wolf's proposed envoy would overlap with several existing positions. "The new special envoy position is unnecessary, duplicative, and likely counterproductive," the State Department said (emphasis added).
But as Wolf explained in his letter: "If I believed that religious minorities, especially in these strategic regions, were getting the attention warranted at the State Department, I would cease in pressing for passage of this legislation. Sadly, that is far from being the case. We must act now.... Time is running out."
Much of this was discussed during Coptic Solidarity's third annual conference in Washington D.C. last month, which I participated in, and which featured many politicians and lawmakers—including the U.K.'s Lord Alton, Senator Roy Blunt, Congressman Trent Frank, Congressman Joseph Pitts, and Frank Wolf himself. As Coptic Solidarity's summary report puts it, "All policy makers voiced strong support to the Copts.... Some policy makers raised concerns about the current U.S. Administration's overtures towards religious extremists."
There was little doubt among the speakers that, while Webb is the front man, Hillary Clinton—who was named often—is ultimately behind the opposition to the bill. (Videos of all speakers can be accessed here; for information on the envoy bill and how to contact Webb's office, click here).
Even those invited to speak about matters outside of Egypt, such as Nigerian lawyer and activist Emmanuel Ogebe, after describing the sheer carnage of thousands of Christians at the hands of Muslim militants, lamented that Obama's response was to pressure the Nigerian president to make more concessions, including by creating more mosques (the very places that "radicalize" Muslims against "infidel" Christians). This, of course, is consistent with the administration's position that the ongoing massacres of Christians have nothing to do with religion.
Indeed, while the administration vocally condemned vandal attacks on mosques in the West Bank (where no Muslims died), it had nothing to say when Islamic terrorists bombed Nigerian churches on Easter Sunday, killing some 50 Christians and wounding hundreds. And when the Egyptian military indiscriminately massacred dozens of unarmed Christians for protesting the nonstop attacks on their churches, all the White House could say is, "Now is a time for restraint on all sides"—as if Egypt's beleaguered Christian minority needs to "restrain" itself against the nation's military, a military that intentionally ran armored-vehicles over them at Maspero.
In light of all this, naturally the Obama administration, in the guise of the State Department, would oppose a bill to create an envoy who will only expose more religious persecution for the administration to suppress or obfuscate.
Such is the current state of affairs. In its attempts to empower its Islamist allies, the current U.S. administration has taken up their cause by waging a war of silence on their despised minorities—the Christians and other non-Muslims of the Islamic world.
Raymond Ibrahim is a Shillman Fellow at the David Horowitz Freedom Center and an Associate Fellow at the Middle East Forum.
Related Topics: Anti-Christianism, US policy | Raymond Ibrahimreceive the latest by email: subscribe to the free mef mailing listThis text may be reposted or forwarded so long as it is presented as an integral whole with complete information provided about its author, date, place of publication, and original URL.
http://www.meforum.org/3300/obama-administration-persecuted-christians
Egypt Reportedly Moves Anti-Aircraft and Anti-Tank Missiles into Sinai in Violation of Israel Peace Treaty
Posted on August 21, 2012
Israel Radio – Voice of Israel – is reporting that Egypt has moved anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles into the Sinai Peninsula, which if true would be a violation of the 1979 Camp David peace accords it signed with Israel which limits the forces Egypt is allowed to position in the Sinai.
Just last week, Israeli officials said they were concerned by the movement of tanks and armored vehicles into the Sinai – ostensibly to aid Egyptian forces in their battle with the growing jihadi terrorist threat growing in the area bordering Israel. But the addition of more sophisticated weaponry and the fact that terrorists in the Sinai are not armed with aircraft or tanks is raising alarm bells in Israel. Arab Affairs Correspondent Eran Zinger reports:
.....
Zinger says Israel's eyes should be open to all the threats near and far, not just to Iran." Israel National News is interpreting the move as threatening to Israel and reminiscent of a grave past experience:
If the report is true, the move is an overtly hostile one toward Israel and can only mean that Egypt is preparing for hostilities with the Jewish state. Ostensibly, Egyptian forces moved into Sinai only in order to crush terrorist activity there. However, the terrorists possess no aircraft. Therefore anti-aircraft missiles can only be intended against Israel's air force.
In the prelude to the Yom Kippur War of 1973, Egypt moved anti-aircraft missiles close to the Suez Canal, despite a commitment not to do so. Israel chose to ignore the move, and the result was catastrophic, when the missiles shot down numerous IAF jets after war broke out
......
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/egypt-reportedly-moves-anti-aircraft-and-anti-tank-missiles-into-sinai-in-violation-of-israel-peace-treaty/
Russia warns West over Syria after Obama threats
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/21/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE8610SH20120821?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=71
Confederacy, anyone? :coffee2:
12 A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.
The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the Lord. "I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.'
6 "On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 "The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
--Zech 12
WRAPUP 3-U.N. monitors leave Syria, battles hit Damascus suburb
By Dominic Evans
BEIRUT, Aug 20 (Reuters) - United Nations military observers left Damascus on Monday after a four-month mission in which they became helpless spectators of Syria's spiralling conflict, instead of monitoring a ceasefire between President Bashar al-Assad's forces and rebels.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/08/20/syria-crisis-idINL6E8JK9BY20120820
:coffee2:
"Our mission failed because the two sides did not abide by their commitments," said one uniformed observer, who declined to be named, before seven U.N. cars left a Damascus hotel carrying some of the last members of a mission once 300 strong.
Quote from: Paul L on August 21, 2012, 08:07:43 AM
The message of Revelation to the 7 ecclesias occurs on the opening of the Lord's Day which is the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy which is now being unsealed after God told Daniel to "close it up" centuries before.
Let's not forget what the apostle Peter said about a "day" when it is used in prophecy: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [2 Peter 3:8] It would apply especially, it seems, to the phrase "the day of the Lord," because he goes on to say, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night." [vs. 10]
Dan. 12:9-10 indicates that the prophecies of Daniel (especially the time prophecies, it seems) are sealed to some, but the "wise" will understand them. The wise, I suggest, would have to be those who are "enlightened" by the Spirit of Christ, who understand what is the hope of his calling, and "the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints." [Eph. 1:17-18]
Quote from: Paul L on August 21, 2012, 08:07:43 AM
We know the 70th week is a prophecy to Daniel's people because it is so stated as a recurring theme in Daniel chapter 12.
Daniel 12:1 describes a resurrection, and a deliverance for those whose names are found written in the book. The book of life includes the names of all the saints, as Paul refers to the "women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life." [Phil. 4:3] It includes all the 'elect.'
John said that those whose names are
not in the book of life, worship the beast. "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." [Rev. 13:8]
There is a powerful warning addressed to all those who worship the beast, in Rev. 14:9-10.
Quote from: Paul L on August 21, 2012, 08:07:43 AM
Then there is an unsealing of these words to Daniel's people at the "time of the end", vs 4 & 9. Now move forward to the opening of the Lord's day in Rev 1:10 at which time the 7 ecclesias receive an unveiling of the messages about the 70th week. How does the context of these prophecies to Daniel fast forwarded to the "day of the lord", have anything to do with the Christian church? The context is all about the Jewish people, there is absolutely no Christian church context to any of Daniel's prophecy, all context is only about Israel & Jews.
Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks concerns "thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain" as mentioned in Dan. 9:16. He identifies Jerusalem with the "holy mountain," mount Zion. He said "O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name." [vs. 10] Now this must be the same mountain that he described in the prophecy in chapter 2, which is about the remarkable dream of Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel said, "Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces." [Dan. 2:34] And he added, "...and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." This stone which becomes a mountain is Christ, and his kingdom. "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed." [vs. 44]
The New Testament identifies Christ as the stone, and the foundation foretold by the prophets. Isaiah said, "Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." [Isa. 28:16] For example, Paul said, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." [1 Cor. 3:11]
Christ's kingdom was established when he ascended to his Father's throne in heaven. The apostle Peter said, on Pentecost, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." [Acts 2:36] Being "made Christ" means he fulfills all the promises about Christ, including receiving an eternal throne, the throne of David, over all Israel. Those who are part of his kingdom are the true Israel, and the Jerusalem above, while Jews who did not believe were cut off, and became "branches broken off from their tree," as Paul says in Romans 11. That means, they are no longer Israel. See Acts 3:21-24, where Peter quotes the law of Moses as saying they have been "destroyed from among the people" meaning the people of Israel. This means they have been destroyed in a spiritual sense; they are not the people of the promises, but Paul says, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Phil. 3:3] But many, it seems, do not believe this. They want to remain Gentiles.
The significance of all this, for understanding Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks, is that when the first 69 weeks were fulfilled, Christ began his ministry, and his ministry was the first part of the 70th week; when he was crucified, there was another half week yet to be fulfilled. Notice that all of the sixty-nine and a half previous weeks, up to then, applied to the earthly Jerusalem, and the times of the prophecy till then are in earthly units, of weeks of years, and weeks of leap years, etc. But when Jesus ascended to heaven, Jerusalem, and the mountain of the Lord's house, were raised up too, as foretold by Isaiah.
Isa. 2:1-2
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it
This was fulfilled; Jesus was raised up to his Father's throne, "the top of the mountains" and exulted above the hills, and Jerusalem was raised up too; this was understood by the apostles, who afterwards spoke of Jerusalem as "heavenly" and "Jerusalem above." The earthly city was cast aside, and identified with Hagar, the bondwoman, who was cast out of Abraham's house.
So after Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, the times of Daniel's prophecy apply to the heavenly city, not the earthly one. And we see that in the last half of the 70th week, earthly units of time no longer apply; God's time does not depend on the earth's revolutions, or its orbit around the sun. The units of the final half-week are spiritual, and figurative. It is represented by 1,335 days, and by the phrase "a time, times and a half." These represent the whole age of the church when Christ continues to confirm his covenant. The numbers used to represent this period do not correspond to a literal three and a half years. [42 literal months is about 1,240 days; 1,260 days is short of a literal three and a half years, which is about 1,278 days, or about 1,272 days, counting 3 solar years and 6 lunar months; 1,290 days is too long; also 1,335 days is way too long]
The numbers in each case do not fit a real three and a half years in any calendar.
Quote from: Paul L on August 21, 2012, 08:07:43 AM
Because the contexts of Daniel's prophecy is written only to Israel & Jews of the endtime, why in the world would we expect Christ to send the unveiling messages written down by John then give them to Christian organizations that are not Jewish, makes no sense. If three of the four ecclesias are warned about congregants not being Jews all the while claiming the opposite, what religious culture is the focal point of discussion here? Certainly not Christian culture! How many Christian churches have you ever heard of who are concerned about non-Jews in their midst? Yet Christ is warning these ecclesias of just that problem.
Christians are those who are "sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." [Eph. 1:13] They are called the "Israel of God." [Gal. 6:16]
Doug
Hey Doug,
:welcome: BACK!
Here is the scripture used to imply the Temple will be rebuilt in the end times:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." Dan 9:27
Here's the NIV
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]"[e] Dan 9:27
There's only one problem. That word "Temple" is not there. It was added by the translators.
Let's look, at the KJV
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirmH1396 the covenantH1285 with manyH7227 for oneH259 week:H7620 and in the midstH2677 of the weekH7620 he shall cause the sacrificeH2077 and the oblationH4503 to cease,H7673 and forH5921 the overspreadingH3671 of abominationsH8251 he shall make it desolate,H8074 even untilH5704 the consummation,H3617 and that determinedH2782 shall be pouredH5413 uponH5921 the desolate.H8076
No Temple!
So what might this be saying? What is "the overspreading of abominations" that he[the Antichrist] uses to make the city desolate?
"overspreading"
H3671
כּנף
kânâph
kaw-nawf'
From H3670; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle: - + bird, border, corner, end, feather [-ed], X flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).
"abominations"
H8251
שׁקּץ שׁקּוּץ
shiqqûts shiqqûts
shik-koots', shik-koots'
From H8262; disgusting, that is, filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol: - abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).
The overspreading of abominations that causes desolation is the wing of a filthy and idolatrous army[Muslim?] that invades the holy city and remains there for 3.5 years.
20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Luke 21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21
This prophecy does not apply to 70 ad because:
there was no time to flee to the mountains, the city was besieged during Passover
the city was locked down by the Romans, and people allowed to enter but prevented from leaving
everyone was held inside until the Romans entered the city
the army did not stand in the holy place, it destroyed it, every last stone as predicted by Jesus
the Roman generals forbade and tried to prevent the destruction of the Temple by their troops, but were unsuccessful
The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 was the decisive event of the First Jewish-Roman War. The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66.
The siege ended with the sacking of the city and the destruction of its famous Second Temple.
Titus surrounded the city, with three legions (V Macedonica, XII Fulminata, XV Apollinaris) on the western side and a fourth (X Fretensis) on the Mount of Olives to the east.[1] He put pressure on the food and water supplies of the inhabitants by allowing pilgrims to enter the city to celebrate Passover, and then refusing to allow them to back out. After Jewish sallies killed a number of Roman soldiers, Titus sent Josephus, the Jewish historian, to negotiate with the defenders; this ended with Jews wounding the negotiator with an arrow, and another sally was launched shortly after. Titus was almost captured during this sudden attack, but escaped.
In mid-May Titus set to destroying the newly built Third Wall with a ram, breaching it as well as the Second Wall, and turning his attention to the Fortress of Antonia just north of the Temple Mount. The Romans were then drawn into street fighting with the Zealots, who were then ordered to retreat to the temple to avoid heavy losses. Josephus failed in another attempt at negotiations, and Jewish attacks prevented the construction of siege towers at the Fortress of Antonia. Food, water, and other provisions were dwindling inside the city, but small foraging parties managed to sneak supplies into the city, harrying Roman forces in the process. To put an end to the foragers, orders were issued to build a new wall, and siege tower construction was restarted as well.
After several failed attempts to breach or scale the walls of the Antonia Fortress, the Romans finally launched a secret attack, overwhelming the sleeping Zealots and taking the fortress. Overlooking the Temple compound, the fortress provided a perfect point from which to attack the Temple itself. Battering rams made little progress, but the fighting itself eventually set the walls on fire; a Roman soldier threw a burning stick onto one of the Temple's walls. Destroying the Temple was not among Titus' goals, possibly due in large part to the massive expansions done by Herod the Great mere decades earlier. Titus had wanted to seize it and transform it into a temple dedicated to the Roman Emperor and the Roman pantheon. The fire spread quickly and was soon out of control. The Temple was destroyed on Tisha B'Av, in the beginning of August, and the flames spread into the residential sections of the city.[1]
--Wikipedia
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2012, 03:37:25 AM
Here is the scripture used to imply the Temple will be rebuilt in the end times:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." Dan 9:27
Here's the NIV
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]"[e] Dan 9:27
There's only one problem. That word "Temple" is not there. It was added by the translators.
The first two sections of the 70 weeks, the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks, apply to the earthly Jerusalem, and half of the 70th week too, and the units of this part of the prophecy are given in natural units of time, such as weeks of years, and weeks of leap years, but the last half week, which is the "time, times and a half" or one half of seven times, applies to Christ and the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the great King, to which Christians have come. [Heb. 12:22]
The time units that apply to the heavenly city are no longer earthly units, but figurative and spiritual, as can be shown by comparing the numbers used to represent the last half week with a natural three and a half years, as in each case they do not correspond, either with one another, or with the number of days in a natural three and a half years. This leads to the conclusion that they do not represent a
natural three and a half years, but are
figurative.
Since the last half-week in the 70th week applies to the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly city, the prophecy in Dan. 9:27 must apply to the
heavenly city and temple as well. That is, the abomination of desolation spoken of in the prophecies of Daniel applies to the
church, which is the true temple of God, and the holy city.
The apostle John said, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." [1 John 2:18] This refers to Daniel's prophecies, in chapter 7, and 9:27, and 11:45 etc. The "little horn" in chapter 7 represents an antichrist spirit, and its "eyes like the eyes of a man" suggest that it represents a human point of view, which is opposed to the divine one. This was already present, John said, in the first century. In the same epistle he wrote, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." [1 John 4:3] This shows clearly that the Antichrist is a spirit, not a particular human individual; it has remained ever since the first century. And it is the cause for tens of thousands of denominations, where Christians are scattered, which fulfills Daniel 12:7.
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2012, 03:37:25 AM
The overspreading of abominations that causes desolation is the wing of a filthy and idolatrous army[Muslim?] that invades the holy city and remains there for 3.5 years.
The temple of God and the Jerusalem to which the prophecy of Dan. 9:27 applies is the church. The Reformers all knew this. The time, times and a half is not a literal three and a half years, but a symbol of the whole age of the church.
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2012, 03:37:25 AM
20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Luke 21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21
Flee to the mountains, Jesus said, but he did not mean
literal ones. He said,
"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." [Luke 17:33] The mountains he meant are the promises of God, as mountains are symbolic of God's promises. In Genesis 49:26, when Jacob blessed Joseph, he said, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." These blessings were high and lofty, as they were spiritual, and so were compared to mountains. They were also eternal, so he refers to "everlasting hills." These promises of the gospel are what Jesus meant we should flee to.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: DougThe temple of God and the Jerusalem to which the prophecy of Dan. 9:27 applies is the church. The Reformers all knew this. The time, times and a half is not a literal three and a half years, but a symbol of the whole age of the church.
The word for Temple in Hebrew is hêykâl and in Greek is hieron.
That word is not in these passages. It is not talking about a 'Temple.'
It is talking about Jerusalem, the holy city.
It seems to me if the Spirit wanted to talk about the Temple, He would use the word for Temple.
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2012, 05:03:21 AM
Quote from: DougThe temple of God and the Jerusalem to which the prophecy of Dan. 9:27 applies is the church. The Reformers all knew this. The time, times and a half is not a literal three and a half years, but a symbol of the whole age of the church.
The word for Temple in Hebrew is hêykâl and in Greek is hieron.
That word is not in these passages. It is not talking about a 'Temple.'
It is talking about Jerusalem, the holy city.
It seems to me if the Spirit wanted to talk about the Temple, He would use the word for Temple.
Daniel's prophecy was about the holy city Jerusalem, and "thy holy mountain," which is otherwise known as mount Zion, a name for the temple. The temple, and the city of Jerusalem were both symbolic of the church, and of Christ's kingdom.
Daniel 9:16
O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
In the New Testament the saints have come to both mount Zion (or Sion) and the heavenly Jerusalem
Hebrews 12:22-24
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
It is obvious that after Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, the earthly city was no longer the holy city, to which OT prophecy applied, or else he would not have allowed it to be destroyed by the Romans as happened in 70 AD. Jerusalem was raised up, and established in the top of the mountains, when Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, as Isaiah foretold. [Isa. 2:2]
Doug
Creation Concept
Quote from: eaglesway on August 21, 2012, 05:47:05 AM
I definitely think the "synagogue of Satan" reference in Rev 2 was, historically, the Jews who were persecuting the ecclesia of Christ. We know Paul was of that synagogue for awhile.
But the biggest problem with this historic modeling of "synagogue of Satan" is Rev 1:10-11 which states these messages to the 7 ecclesias are delivered to them all on the same day which is the "day of the Lord", the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. There is no other reference in the Bible to "synagogue of Satan", only in this prophecy.
This "synagogue of Satan" is not even yet in existence because these ecclesias do not yet exist. However, when the 7 ecclesias do come into existence the synagogue of satan will soon follow, you can be sure of that, every jot & tittle of prophecy will be fulfilled, it's how God proves to man that He is the one at the controls of the universe & not Satan or some other created being.
Some very interesting videos here regarding the two wars, Psa 83 and Eze 38/39 [Gog and Magog]. They postulate that Iran will redirect Israel's energies away from itself by causing Israel to fight wars with those states that border it. That would be the Psa 83 war. The Bible says that Israel will win this war with its bordering enemies and thus expand itself greatly into their territories, creating the state that 'dwells in safety' in the midst of its territory described in Eze 38. At that point the bigger coalition of states will come against Israel in the Gog and Magog war. They also postulate that between these two wars, the rapture will take place
IMPORTANT: A Signal To Christians
The judgment to befall Edom will serve as a precursor to the judgment that will come in "the day of the Lord upon all the nations." Zephaniah 2 [Amplified Bible] makes clear that this judgment against Edom, which also extends to the other confederate member nations, is to serve as an example to the other nations but more importantly it is a call to the "meek of the Earth" to get right before "the day of the Lord" and the Rapture of the Church occurs.
Zephaniah 2:3-5
3 Seek the Lord [inquire for Him, inquire of Him, and require Him as the foremost necessity of your life], all you humble of the land who have acted in compliance with His revealed will and have kept His commandments; seek righteousness, seek humility [inquire for them, require them as vital]. It may be you will be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger.
4 For [hear the fate of the Philistines:] Gaza shall be forsaken and Ashkelon shall become a desolation; the people of Ashdod shall be driven out at noonday and Ekron shall be uprooted.
5 Woe to the inhabitants of the seacoast, the nation of the Cherethites [in Philistia]! The word of the Lord is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines; I will destroy you until no inhabitant is left.
:[it may be] "you will be hidden"
H5641
סתר
aŝthar
saw-thar'
A primitive root; to hide (by covering), literally or figuratively: - be absent, keep close, conceal, hide (self), (keep) secret, X surely.
www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/road/mewar.html
I'm hearing some really messed up stuff you're getting from Wikipedia. One brother who was here pretty often a while back used to go there everyday to straighten out what was written under Universal Salvation, Universal Reconciliation, and the like. I've found it to be very off sometimes.
I've several times read that the majority of believers escaped when they saw the Roman army initially gathering against Jerusalem. When the Roman Army withdrew after about 3 1/2 yrs. siege to re-group under Titus, the Jewish Zealots, who were guarding the Christians from escaping the city, took off after the retreating army shouting such things as, "Attack the heathen," "Go forth unto victory," "The Lord goes before us as of old," and, "Destroy the army of the uncircumcised!" At that time, remembering what Jesus had, the remaining Christians escaped to Petra (a city of as many as 60,000 to 80,000 at the time.) When Titus and his soldiers came into the city he found no Christians there.
This account I believe is attributable to Josephus, (who was there, and) who is surely online. I'm certain the commentaries of John Gill are online having visited them. Gill was in the 1700's and before the dipsinsationalists infestation. Possibly Commentary on the Old Testament by Keil and Delitzsch are also online. They're ubiquitous in Bible software probably in the public domain. Delitzsch is one of the greatest Hebraists the church has ever known. His writings are also before that "form of doctrine" was popular. May of my links to other helpful sources are not available to me at this time. To get knowledge from these aforementioned sources is more difficult but also more trustworthy. The older scholars were more careful not to bring derision upon themselves for outlandish distortion of known facts as Wikipedia seems keen to do.
Yeah, Keil and Delitz is great. http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/22_historical_books.htm (also esword modules IIRC)
Anchor Bible Commentary is good too.
Gill here (http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/#13456133197721&0%7C3/18/2013%209:28:39%20AM%7Cz-index:%201002;%20width:%20619px;%20height:%20533px;%20margin-left:%20-309.5px;%20left:%2050%;%20top:%2070px;%20position:fixed;%7Cnlst)
Josephus here (http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/)
But maybe the question is, were those prophecies written to the Christians or to the Jews?
The Jews ['those in Judea'] are told to flee. The Christians are told to start looking up, because your redemption is nigh.
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2012, 04:31:17 PM
But maybe the question is, were those prophecies written to the Christians or to the Jews?
The Jews ['those in Judea'] are told to flee. The Christians are told to start looking up, because your redemption is nigh.
This is one of the peculiarities of opinion which is crucial to dipsinsationalists: the rebuilding of the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile, the partition that was torn down in Jesus death making one new man. The distinction between Jew and Gentile (male and female, bond and free, etc.) is no longer a way to perceive those inheriting the kingdom. These are no longer valid categories for us.
In the days of the destruction of Jerusalem, if the Christians did not know what prophecies pertained to their time they died. I'm concerned the same culminating severity is at hand in our time. I hear so many rattling on about persons, things, issues, and such that are in the same dimension our fleshy skin suit occupies. Their mind is on carnal things. They aren't searching for what can build up their character to be more aligned with Christ's personality. At best, their enthusiasm is for the Party going on in the outer court, while our attention should be on the increasing Glory of His Presence. This is the perception that the Holy Spirit uses to transform us into the same image.
(Hebrews 96-9 Concordant Literal...)
6 Now these having been constructed thus, the priests, indeed, are passing continually into the front tabernacle, performing the divine service;
7 yet into the second, the chief priest only, once a year, not apart from blood, which he is offering for himself and the errors of the people,
8 by this the holy spirit making it evident that the way of the holy places is not as yet manifest while the front tabernacle still has a standing:
9 which is a parable for the present period,
This from vs. 8 in what I want you to notice: "...the way of the holy places is not as yet manifest while the front tabernacle still has a standing." The word "standing" here can mean, "a popular uprising, a boisterous party." "The front tent" refers to what has a roof covering, not the outer court. This front tabernacle is full of the activity and works of men. In the feasts it represents Pentecost, while The outer court corresponds to Passover. The Holiest is Tabernacles. When your stomach is filled with the loaves of Pentecost you aren't hungry for Tabernacles' supper. Here it says when all the attention is on the noise and activity in the Holy Place, the way into the Holy of Holies is not made manifest.
Yet this is the very thing that is at hand prophetically. The Barley Harvest is first of what is next on the prophetic calendar. Harvest means to be gathered into God. We are going to be born of the resurrection in this Tabernacles Feast. When the last members of the body, the feet, are born, the whole body will walk into the Holy of Holies.
To not know what is going on, where we now are prophetically, can endanger your life.
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2012, 04:31:17 PM
But maybe the question is, were those prophecies written to the Christians or to the Jews?
There is a way to disprove it was written for that age. But still very problematic.....
Last week suddenly a a thought about 3.5 years popped into my head. 1260 days and 1290 days. How can they both be 3.5 years?
God is bad at math? It occured to me it's more like God being good at timekeeping (calendar)
Jews used a 12 month lunar calendar and inserted a leap month one in a while.
A leap year is referred to in Hebrew as Shanah Me'uberet, or a pregnant year. A Jewish leap year occurs 7 times in a 19-year cycle. The 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th years are leap years in this cycle.The leap month was inserted just befor Nisan the Passover month. During Jesus time it was totally based on the state op the crops not on the formula shown above. It's accurate but drifts a little. All those warnings set aside....
I think the 1260 and 1290 are a reference to a leap month.
Meaning the "Tribulation" must be synced to that 19 year cycle. I did a quick check and it's very clear not just any years fit.
I also think it's synced to a Sabbath cycle. When both align the possible years are narrowed down a lot.
If the possible years do no align with the years before the destruction of the the Temple it's not about that time.
I have done just a few checks. I pinpointed the Sabbath cycle quite accurately but not the 19 year cycle (or the 3 year Torah reading cycle)
Seems something Doug might have already done...
Seems like a nice study ahead. Days with 4 hours sleep and forgetting to eat all day. Those were the times... :-)
3, 7 and 19 year cycles... sounds like very reaonble approach to gain extra support for either view (past, future or both)
Quote from: reFORMer on August 22, 2012, 03:57:57 PM
I've several times read that the majority of believers escaped when they saw the Roman army initially gathering against Jerusalem. When the Roman Army withdrew after about 3 1/2 yrs. siege to re-group under Titus, the Jewish Zealots, who were guarding the Christians from escaping the city, took off after the retreating army shouting such things as, "Attack the heathen," "Go forth unto victory," "The Lord goes before us as of old," and, "Destroy the army of the uncircumcised!" At that time, remembering what Jesus had, the remaining Christians escaped to Petra (a city of as many as 60,000 to 80,000 at the time.) When Titus and his soldiers came into the city he found no Christians there.
That sounds like the Christians were 'raptured'..... :winkgrin:
Quote from: ReformerThis is one of the peculiarities of opinion which is crucial to dipsinsationalists: the rebuilding of the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile, the partition that was torn down in Jesus death making one new man. The distinction between Jew and Gentile (male and female, bond and free, etc.) is no longer a way to perceive those inheriting the kingdom. These are no longer valid categories for us
Just to review: Paul tells us that the Jews have been partially blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and then their eyes will be opened. Lots of prophecy tells us the same from the OT, as well. I've been trying to point that out. If we are really at the end of the age, this will be the time the Jews will start coming into Christ. But, I'm thinking the bulk of it will happen after the Christians leave the planet. There is none to very little that can be recognized as the Christian west in any of the OT prophecies about the latter days. It's all about the middle east and the country of Israel.
Quote from: ReformerThis from vs. 8 in what I want you to notice: "...the way of the holy places is not as yet manifest while the front tabernacle still has a standing." The word "standing" here can mean, "a popular uprising, a boisterous party." "The front tent" refers to what has a roof covering, not the outer court. This front tabernacle is full of the activity and works of men. In the feasts it represents Pentecost, while The outer court corresponds to Passover. The Holiest is Tabernacles. When your stomach is filled with the loaves of Pentecost you aren't hungry for Tabernacles' supper. Here it says when all the attention is on the noise and activity in the Holy Place, the way into the Holy of Holies is not made manifest.
Yet this is the very thing that is at hand prophetically. The Barley Harvest is first of what is next on the prophetic calendar. Harvest means to be gathered into God. We are going to be born of the resurrection in this Tabernacles Feast. When the last members of the body, the feet, are born, the whole body will walk into the Holy of Holies.
I'll definitely think about this. Thanks!
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2012, 06:00:10 PM
But, I'm thinking the bulk of it will happen after the Christians leave the planet. There is none to very little that can be recognized as the Christian west in any of the OT prophecies about the latter days. It's all about the middle east and the country of Israel.
Spot on Molly. Every Bible topic of a prophetic nature deals only with how other nations interact with Israel. There are no specific prophecies concerning how the United States deals with Russia, or how England deals with China, only chains of events concerning how those countries are engaged with Israel in years leading up to the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy & on into the 7 years of the 70th week.
Presently as I look at the Middle East, I do not see enough chains of events that indicate we are right on the cusp of the start of the 70th week. Maybe if Syria falls soon, then the pace of things may pick up if the Jews in Israel take out Iran's nuclear production facilities. If Iran comes under attack by Israel, you can be sure that will be the end of Assad & that regime because they are just basically Iranian surrogates. I think that once certain fundamentalist Islamic forces in Syria & Iran are neutralized, then the way could be paved for construction of the Jewish Temple & the 7 synagogues in Turkey, but first the threats of Islamic fundamentalism must be removed, & those threats are mostly stemming from Shiite fundamentalism out of Iran.
Quote from: Paul L on August 22, 2012, 11:02:44 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2012, 06:00:10 PM
But, I'm thinking the bulk of it will happen after the Christians leave the planet. There is none to very little that can be recognized as the Christian west in any of the OT prophecies about the latter days. It's all about the middle east and the country of Israel.
Spot on Molly. Every Bible topic of a prophetic nature deals only with how other nations interact with Israel. There are no specific prophecies concerning how the United States deals with Russia, or how England deals with China, only chains of events concerning how those countries are engaged with Israel in years leading up to the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy & on into the 7 years of the 70th week.
Presently as I look at the Middle East, I do not see enough chains of events that indicate we are right on the cusp of the start of the 70th week. Maybe if Syria falls soon, then the pace of things may pick up if the Jews in Israel take out Iran's nuclear production facilities. If Iran comes under attack by Israel, you can be sure that will be the end of Assad & that regime because they are just basically Iranian surrogates. I think that once certain fundamentalist Islamic forces in Syria & Iran are neutralized, then the way could be paved for construction of the Jewish Temple & the 7 synagogues in Turkey, but first the threats of Islamic fundamentalism must be removed, & those threats are mostly stemming from Shiite fundamentalism out of Iran.
The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 were about the duration of the desolation of the city of Jerusalem, and the mountain of the Lord's house. But Isaiah said, the mountain of the Lord's house would be established
in the top of the mountains. [Isa. 2:2] When Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, after his resurrection, this was fulfilled. What mountain is
higher than God's throne? He was "exulted above the hills." He was "the only begotten Son" of the Father. [John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Heb. 11:17; 1 John 4:9]
Peter said, on the Day of Pentecost when the Spirit was given,
Acts 2:32-36
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Being "made Christ" meant he had
inherited the throne of his ancestor David, and was ruling over all Israel in Jerusalem. This is how Jerusalem was
exulted above the hills, and
established in the top of the mountains. But those Jews who rejected the gospel, were
cut off from Israel. They were no longer Israel, in a spiritual sense, but were
branches broken off from their tree. This was how Paul explained it in Romans 11. And the apostle Peter said,
Acts 3:22-24
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that
every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
By these teachings, the earthly Jerusalem and the Jews of that generation who did not believe the gospel received a
deadly wound. The "sword" in scripture is scripture itself, as we read in Hebrews:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The ministry of the apostles continued to spread this word, and so the unbelieving part of the Jewish nation was
cut off from the promises of God. In the events of 70 A.D. there was no divine protection for them. There were armies surrounding Jerusalem, a condition which to them probably seemed very much what was foretold in Zechariah 14:1-2, but the promise in verse 3, "Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle" did not come to pass; neither did the mount of Olives cleave in the midst, and half of it move north and half move south; and neither did any plague smite the attackers, or their horses, or mules, or camels, or asses, in those days, as far as we know. The Jews were bitterly disappointed. To this day, those Jews who deny that Jesus is the Christ have been
cut off from the promises, and from
Israel. Thus, they received a "deadly wound" from the
sword of God's word. But John said, in Rev. 13, that one of the heads of the beast, in which there were the
names of blasphemy, that had received a deadly wound, would be healed. Is this what happened in 1948?
Let's remember, the "beast" with 7 heads and 10 horns in ch. 13 has the characteristics of the four beasts in Daniel 7, and the same number of heads and horns. The kingdom of Herod was a Roman province. It was incorporated in the fourth beast of Dan. 7. Jesus acknowledged this, when the Jews questioned him about paying tribute.
Luke 20:21-26
And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:
Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's.
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.
And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.
So, even though a Jewish state has emerged, which calls itself "Israel," let's not be deceived. Paul wrote:
Romans 9:6-8
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The "children of the promise" are the true Israel, not the children of the flesh. The saints are the Israel of God
by faith, not by the flesh, or because of physical circumcision, but by the circumcision
made without hands. Colossians 2:10-12
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision
made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: DougThe ministry of the apostles continued to spread this word, and so the unbelieving part of the Jewish nation was cut off from the promises of God. In the events of 70 A.D. there was no divine protection for them. There were armies surrounding Jerusalem, a condition which to them probably seemed very much what was foretold in Zechariah 14:1-2, but the promise in verse 3, "Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle" did not come to pass; neither did the mount of Olives cleave in the midst, and half of it move north and half move south; and neither did any plague smite the attackers, or their horses, or mules, or camels, or asses, in those days, as far as we know. The Jews were bitterly disappointed. To this day, those Jews who deny that Jesus is the Christ have been cut off from the promises, and from Israel. Thus, they received a "deadly wound" from the sword of God's word. But John said, in Rev. 13, that one of the heads of the beast, in which there were the names of blasphemy, that had received a deadly wound, would be healed. Is this what happened in 1948?
So we agree that the Jews received no divine protection in 70 ad, and thus none of these prophecies about the Jews being saved by God from their enemies and being great warriors themselves apply to 70 ad. Neither did Jesus show up to defend them or protect them. 70 ad was a rout and a bust.
Jesus had said to them 40 years earlier:
I leave your house desolate...But the Jews do not qualify either for the beast kingdom that was wounded and came alive. First, they were not a kingdom then and are not a kingdom now in the sense of Assyria, Babylon, Greek, or Roman. Neither are they a system in the sense of Babylon. They may be part of a beast kingdom or system, but they are not one themselves. Right now they are a little country about the size of New Jersey.
I think the Muslim Caliphate is the best candidate for the beast who receives a deadly wound--1928 -- and which comes back to life--hasn't happened yet, but looks like it is close to happening.
As for the Jews, Paul twists himself into a pretzel in Rom 11 to show us that all [the elect] of Israel will be saved, and that includes the endtime Jews.
Hezbollah holds massive military drill to simulate raids into northern Israel, border clashes
10,000 gunmen participate in war games reportedly supervised by Iran's Revolutionary Guard; 2,000 Hezbollah fighters said to be undergoing training in Iran
By Gabe FisherAugust 23, 2012, 2:21 pm
Hezbollah conducted a massive military exercise in southern Lebanon this week, reportedly deploying 10,000 gunmen over three days in a war-game scenario and simulating the Shiite group's role as an Iranian proxy in a potential war between Israel and Iran.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/nasrallah-reportedly-leads-massive-hezbollah-military-drill/
Psalm 83?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 22, 2012, 05:33:29 PM
Last week suddenly a a thought about 3.5 years popped into my head. 1260 days and 1290 days. How can they both be 3.5 years?
God is bad at math? It occured to me it's more like God being good at timekeeping (calendar)
Jews used a 12 month lunar calendar and inserted a leap month one in a while.
A leap year is referred to in Hebrew as Shanah Me'uberet, or a pregnant year. A Jewish leap year occurs 7 times in a 19-year cycle. The 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th years are leap years in this cycle.
The leap month was inserted just befor Nisan the Passover month. During Jesus time it was totally based on the state op the crops not on the formula shown above. It's accurate but drifts a little. All those warnings set aside....
I think the 1260 and 1290 are a reference to a leap month.
Meaning the "Tribulation" must be synced to that 19 year cycle. I did a quick check and it's very clear not just any years fit.
The 1,290 days are mentioned together with 1,335 days, and they are related to the "time, times and a half" mentioned in the same chapter.
Daniel 12:4-7
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
The swearing person here who stands on the water is thought by some scholars to be Christ, who walked on water in view of the disciples. There are only a few examples in scripture of a divine being or an angel swearing. The most prominent by far is the promise God made to Abraham, that his seed would possess the land of Canaan, in Genesis 15:17-18. There are references to it in Genesis 24:7; 26:1-4; 50:24; Exodus 13:5; 32:13; 33:1; Numbers 11:12; 14:16, 23, 30; 32:11; Deuteronomy 1:8, 35; 4:31; 6:10, 18, 23; 7:13; 8:1, 18; 10:11; 11:9; 26:3, 15; 28:11; 30:20; 31:20-21, 23, and many more in Joshua, and other scriptures. In the New Testament this promise is referred to in Luke 1:73, "The oath which he sware to our father Abraham," and Hebrews 6:13.
Another example of God swearing is when he refused to allow the faithless Israelites to enter the promised land, of whom it is said, "Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest." [Psalm 95:11]
Another example is God's covenant with Israel, in Ezekiel 16:8, "Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine."
Another is the promise to David.
Psalm 89:49
Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
These are all most significant components of the gospel, and the swearing described in Daniel 12:7 is equally so. It is the promise that all the things included in Daniel's prophecies are to be finished, within the "time, times and a half."
We find another account with many similarities to the account of the swearing person in Daniel's prophecy, in Revelation 10. The two swearing figures are compared in the table below.
| | Daniel 10:5-6; 12:7 | | Revelation 10:1-7 |
his clothing |
| a man clothed in linen |
| an angel clothed with a cloud |
his face |
| his face as the appearance of lightning |
| his face was as it were the sun |
his feet |
| his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass |
| his feet as pillars of fire |
he stood upon the water |
| upon the waters of the river |
| his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, |
his hands
|
| he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven |
| he lifted up his hand to heaven |
swearing |
| he swore by him that liveth for ever |
| he swore by him that liveth for ever and ever |
the time of the fulfilment of prophecy ends |
| it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. |
| in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets |
The idea that the "time, times and a half" is a literal three and a half years does not appear to fit the emphasis that is given to this time period in prophecy; it must have far greater significance than that. And the numbers associated with it, as I pointed out earlier, do not fit a literal three years and a half. Suggesting that God was poor at math is impious. And Daniel was put over all the wise men of Babylon. In his time the knowledge of the calendar and of the astronomical periods was quite advanced. They discovered the 235 month cycle. Here is what James Evans wrote about its significance: [James Evans. History and practice of ancient astronomy (http://books.google.com/books?id=nS51_7qbEWsC). Oxford University Press, 1998. p. 185.]
The tropical year is longer than twelve synodic months by 0.3693 month. We search for an integer n such that n × 0.3683 is a whole number. A very satisfactory solution is n = 19.
19 × 0.3683 = 6.9977, which is very nearly 7.
Thus, we may construct a nineteen-year luni-solar cycle. In nineteen calendar years, we insert seven additional months. Of the nineteen years, twelve will consist of twelve months and seven will consist of thirteen months.
Nineteen-year cycle
12 years of 12 months = 144 months
7 years of 13 months = 91 months
so, 19 calendar years = 235 months
The average length of the calendar year in this system is 235 months/19 = 12.3684 months, which agrees very well with the length of the solar years (12.3683 months)
Nineteen tropical years therefore contain 235 synodic months, almost exactly. The astronomical meaning of this statement is that after nineteen tropical years, both the Sun and the Moon return to the same positions on the ecliptic. The sun returns to the same longitude after any interval containing a whole number of tropical years. The special feature of the nineteen-year period is that it also contains a whole number of synodic months. Thus, the Moon will be in the same phase on two dates that are nineteen years apart.
The explanation of the eight-and nineteen-year cycles given above is not meant to reflect the actual process of discovery: the ancient Greeks and Babylonians did not begin with a knowledge of the lengths of the year and the month. Rather, a knowledge of these cycles emerged after several generations of keeping track of the Moon.
Evans said that in Babylon, "There is some evidence that an eight-year cycle was used for the brief period from 529 to 503 B.C. From 499, the nineteen-year cycle was probably in use (seven intercalary months inserted every nineteen years)." The period he refers to was some decades after the time of Daniel. So Daniel would probably have been aware of the advances in the knowledge of the calendar and lunar solar cycles.
The number 1,335 days in Daniel 12:12 incorporates ideal months of 30 days, not natural months. The number corresponds to three and a half years where one year has 12 months, and the rest 13. The number 1,290 days in Daniel 12:11 corresponds to three and a half years where one year has 13 months, and the rest 12. So they both represent
unnatural time periods, or in other words
symbolic periods of three and a half years, or a time, times and a half. This is also true of the 42 months and 1,260 days in Revelation. There is a sequence of progressively smaller numbers, as the time, times and a half is
a diminishing period, and represents the whole age of the church, that eventually comes to an end, which is when all that was revealed to the prophets comes to pass.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2012, 04:06:40 AM
Hezbollah holds massive military drill to simulate raids into northern Israel, border clashes
10,000 gunmen participate in war games reportedly supervised by Iran's Revolutionary Guard; 2,000 Hezbollah fighters said to be undergoing training in Iran
By Gabe FisherAugust 23, 2012, 2:21 pm
Hezbollah conducted a massive military exercise in southern Lebanon this week, reportedly deploying 10,000 gunmen over three days in a war-game scenario and simulating the Shiite group's role as an Iranian proxy in a potential war between Israel and Iran.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/nasrallah-reportedly-leads-massive-hezbollah-military-drill/
Psalm 83?
I've heard many a speculation that Ps 83 is a reference to the future of the endtime. I've never really studied the reasoning for it carefully enough to give it any credence. What I've seen is that some teachers use Ps 83 to identify ten countries that are the ten horns of the endtime beast, & when I see that I just merrily move along my way, after all the ten horns of the beast will rule the entire world not just a sliver of land in the Middle East. Sure the geographical location is about right, but how do you know this Psalm is simply not a reminiscing of David's previous struggles during the time he was consolidating the kingdom?
Quote from: Paul L on August 24, 2012, 06:01:26 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2012, 04:06:40 AM
Hezbollah holds massive military drill to simulate raids into northern Israel, border clashes
10,000 gunmen participate in war games reportedly supervised by Iran's Revolutionary Guard; 2,000 Hezbollah fighters said to be undergoing training in Iran
By Gabe FisherAugust 23, 2012, 2:21 pm
Hezbollah conducted a massive military exercise in southern Lebanon this week, reportedly deploying 10,000 gunmen over three days in a war-game scenario and simulating the Shiite group's role as an Iranian proxy in a potential war between Israel and Iran.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/nasrallah-reportedly-leads-massive-hezbollah-military-drill/
Psalm 83?
I've heard many a speculation that Ps 83 is a reference to the future of the endtime. I've never really studied the reasoning for it carefully enough to give it any credence. What I've seen is that some teachers use Ps 83 to identify ten countries that are the ten horns of the endtime beast, & when I see that I just merrily move along my way, after all the ten horns of the beast will rule the entire world not just a sliver of land in the Middle East. Sure the geographical location is about right, but how do you know this Psalm is simply not a reminiscing of David's previous struggles during the time he was consolidating the kingdom?
I'm just trying to fit together all the pieces of the big jigsaw puzzle that is end time prophecy. There are many pieces scattered throughout the Bible, OT and NT, and they all have to fit together and be accounted for. When I started looking at this, I realized that many prophecy experts had overlooked the elephant in the room, Islam.
I also realized that end time prophecy is all about Jerusalem, the country of Israel, and the Jews. We return to the place that God has picked as his capital city of the world, and that is where all the action will be.
I wish I could just list all the pieces of prophecy on cards and then try to order them. Doing it in my head is not so easy. If you find something that contradicts other scripture, or is contradicted by current events, you have to readjust your thesis. But, so far the two things mentioned above are accounting for all the prophecy I can keep in my head at one time.
If you are on the right track, you can begin to predict the future. Imagine that!
Just a few days ago, I said that Iran would try to use the countries that border Israel to fight a proxy war and thus take the heat off themselves. I saw this a few days ago as making absolute sense in terms of good war strategy. It is what I would do if I were the generals in charge. But, this came out of wondering how Psa 83 could happen before Eze 38, and why. It came out of knowing the prophecy.
So then here we have this article saying just that--Iran is training Hezbollah to fight a proxy war with Israel and take the heat off itself. If Israel is busy messing with enemies on its border, it won't have much time to wage war with a more distant enemy.
Also, you, Paul, said something that helped me a lot. You said Israel would expand her borders as a result of war. This also helped me see why Psa 83 war would happen first, because at the time of Eze 38 war, Israel is dwelling in safety within her [expanded] borders.
Even though we know the beast system is Satan's system which tries to copy and mock everything God says He will do, I do believe that in the final battles, the beast system will be represented by Islam. Just take a look at a map. Israel sits alone in a sea of Muslim countries which are getting more radical by the day. The 'entire world,' you say. The 'entire world' for end time prophecy is the Middle East.
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2012, 10:44:17 PM
Quote from: Paul L on August 24, 2012, 06:01:26 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2012, 04:06:40 AM
Hezbollah holds massive military drill to simulate raids into northern Israel, border clashes
You said Israel would expand her borders as a result of war. This also helped me see why Psa 83 war would happen first, because at the time of Eze 38 war, Israel is dwelling in safety within her [expanded] borders.
Molly, since my last post, I've more carefully read Ps 83, & I know there are those who embrace the concept that the Psalms are prophetic, but I'm just not seeing it, maybe prophetic in the sense of a nation dwelling safely inside its' borders during the Millenium with its Temple & their Messiah sitting in it.
If Ps 83 is a prophetic message of our time, the peoples spoken of do seem to be those around Israel's borders whom the Jews must subjugate in order to create a security zone to make Israel safe from rocket attacks. Don't forget Israel already has a piece of Syria within its' security zone, the Golan Heights & I think will soon take a bigger chunk of that country as well as the entirety of Lebanon. The biggest mystery to me is yet to happen in Turkey, somehow that country will be turned inside out & pulled away from Islam for those 7 ecclesias (Jewish synagogues) to come into existence.
Three key things I look for in the Middle east as guideposts to how close we are to the opening of the 70yh week: 1- Building of the Temple in Jerusalem 2- The site of ancient Babylon as the world's foremost center of commerce 3- The establishment of the 7 ecclesias. To date none of these three things are imminent, therefore I do not expect to see the start of the 70th week in my lifetime, I believe it is many decades away.
Islam will be a major player just as you suggest, right now Iran is the big bully in Middle eastern affairs & may very well be the source of the rockets that level Babylon in the middle of the 70th week. But between now & the start of the 70th week a lot of jockeying for position will be going on and it's how the demise of Islamic nation of Turkey occurs that has my keenest interest.
Notes on the salvation of all Israel--Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--rom 11
four questions about "all Israel will be saved"
Who is 'Israel'?
What does 'all' mean?
When are they saved?
How are they saved?
Who is Israel in this passage?
Ans. Ethnic Jews
A 'mystery"-- partial hardening has come upon [ethnic, Jewish] Israel UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
rom 9--Israel doesn't just mean ethnic Israel alone. Israel of the flesh vs Israel of the promise [spirit]--two Israels
After the gentiles are brought in, we have the climax of the covenant when all of ethnic Israel will be brought into the covenant at the end of the age, that is the Jews who have been hardened until the appointed time..
Paul makes a distinction between Israel of the flesh that rejected Jesus --stumbled, transgressed, cast away and hardened, disobedient, in unbelief--Paul is talking about ethnic Jews here-versus Israel of the spirit, the elect church of Jews and Gentiles.
Israel of the flesh will be saved at the end time after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Paul calls them enemies of the gospel and beloved because of the fathers--"Jacob"--upon whom the gifts of God are irrevocable. This is not about the church.
Ans. the Israel being saved in verse 26 is ethnic Israel.
What does all mean?
ans. Every Jew who survives the tribulation of Jacob's trouble at the end of the age, at the moment they see Jesus.
Paul calls this life from the dead.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness [their full inclusion]?
--Rom 11
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
--Rom 11
Prophecy speaks of a sweeping salvation of the Jews at the end of the age:
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
--Isa 54
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever. Isa 59
13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come. Psa 102
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer 31
37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
--Jer 32
When are they saved?
Ans: at the time of Jacob's trouble
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jer 30
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12
2/3 of Jews will perish during the time of Jacob's trouble--
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
--Zech 13
How are they saved?
.
By grace, by faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit, when ethnic Jews look upon Jesus whom they have pierced and mourn for him. The revelation that they have pierced their Messiah moves them to mourn collectively on one day.
God is going to Judge the nations that come against Israel and save Israel
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning Isa 4
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. Zech 12:10
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time. Isa 60
Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. Isa 66
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2012, 12:58:27 AM
Notes on the salvation of all Israel--Rom 11
-
Who is Israel in this passage?
Ans. Ethnic Jews
A 'mystery"-- partial hardening has come upon [ethnic, Jewish] Israel UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Paul makes a distinction between Israel of the flesh that rejected Jesus --stumbled, transgressed, cast away and hardened, disobedient, in unbelief--Paul is talking about ethnic Jews here-versus Israel of the spirit, the elect church of Jews and Gentiles.
Israel of the flesh will be saved at the end time after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Paul calls them enemies of the gospel and beloved because of the fathers--"Jacob"--upon whom the gifts of God are irrevocable. This is not about the church.
What does all mean?
ans. Every Jew who survives the tribulation of Jacob's trouble at the end of the age, at the moment they see Jesus.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time. Isa 60
Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. Isa 66
:2thumbs:
wow..you agree, Jab? It's beautiful, isn't it?
Even more beautiful if you could only agree that the Gentile church is the lost tribes of Israel, for the promise was given to Abraham before he was circumcised, while he was still a Gentile. The children of the promise are the Gentiles, and always were. And, so, ALL Israel will be saved. :dsunny:
But, I can wait. :coffee2:
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. Rom 4:11
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2012, 12:58:27 AM
...
Prophecy speaks of a sweeping salvation of the Jews at the end of the age:
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
--Isa 54
This chapter of Isaiah begins with a verse that Paul quotes in his epistle to the Galatians and applies to the church.
Isaiah 54:1
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
Galatians 4:27
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
In the above verse, Sarah was the one who was barren, and she is the one who represents the church while Hagar and her offspring represent the earthly Jerusalem, and the Jews, who Paul said were in bondage. Isaiah 54 applies to the church, so if one accepts the authority of Paul, the idea that anything in the chapter refers to ethnic Jews who deny that Jesus is the Christ seems spurious.
And, I noticed that you omit verses 11 & 12 in your quote above.
Isa. 54:11-12
O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
Hmm..
The only foundation this can be referring to is that of the church, the holy city.
1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
At least one of the stones named in the verses is the same as those John described in foundations of the holy city, which represents the church.
Rev 21:19-21
And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl:
Many other prophecies of Isaiah apply to the church, under the figures of Israel, Jerusalem and Zion. From the point of view of scripture, the name "Israel" belongs, not to ethnic Jews and emigrants from Russia to the Jewish state in Palestine, but to the church. Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews," and Paul explained that "he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." [Romans 2:29]
The reason is that when Jesus ascended to heaven, after his resurrection, Jerusalem and mount Zion were also raised up, which fulfilled Isa. 2:1-2, and Zech. 14:10. These prophecies were not about literal tectonic movements that elevate the earthly Jerusalem, but they describe spiritual concepts; Jerusalem is the city of the great King, Jesus, and those "in Christ" are raised up with him, hence they are included in the holy city, and "the mountain of the Lord's house."
Doug
Creation Concept (http://tionconcept.wordpress.com)
This is a great place to hang out to learn about Israel and Judaism, many educated, faith and smart people here.
I have high hopes for Israel and their future, it will be great to see God move like in the old times, bringing unusual miracles.
I just read about Samson's adventures, I had no idea that the had super combat skills to slay thousands of men and also drank water out of a skull.
Super!
Quote from: Doug on August 26, 2012, 06:13:17 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2012, 12:58:27 AM
...
Prophecy speaks of a sweeping salvation of the Jews at the end of the age:
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
--Isa 54
This chapter of Isaiah begins with a verse that Paul quotes in his epistle to the Galatians and applies to the church.
Isaiah 54:1
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
Galatians 4:27
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
In the above verse, Sarah was the one who was barren, and she is the one who represents the church while Hagar and her offspring represent the earthly Jerusalem, and the Jews, who Paul said were in bondage. Isaiah 54 applies to the church, so if one accepts the authority of Paul, the idea that anything in the chapter refers to ethnic Jews who deny that Jesus is the Christ seems spurious.
And, I noticed that you omit verses 11 & 12 in your quote above.
Isa. 54:11-12
O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
Hmm..
The only foundation this can be referring to is that of the church, the holy city.
1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
At least one of the stones named in the verses is the same as those John described in foundations of the holy city, which represents the church.
Rev 21:19-21
And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl:
Many other prophecies of Isaiah apply to the church, under the figures of Israel, Jerusalem and Zion. From the point of view of scripture, the name "Israel" belongs, not to ethnic Jews and emigrants from Russia to the Jewish state in Palestine, but to the church. Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews," and Paul explained that "he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." [Romans 2:29]
The reason is that when Jesus ascended to heaven, after his resurrection, Jerusalem and mount Zion were also raised up, which fulfilled Isa. 2:1-2, and Zech. 14:10. These prophecies were not about literal tectonic movements that elevate the earthly Jerusalem, but they describe spiritual concepts; Jerusalem is the city of the great King, Jesus, and those "in Christ" are raised up with him, hence they are included in the holy city, and "the mountain of the Lord's house."
Doug
Creation Concept (http://tionconcept.wordpress.com)
Isaiah 54 is prophesying about either the house of Israel [northern ten tribes] or the house of Judah [southern two tribes, 'Jews'] because that is to whom the New Covenant was made. The house of Israel was divorced by God and lost to history some 800 years before Jesus was born. The house of Judah was not divorced, but exiled and brought back by God, and then left desolate by Jesus UNTIL...
Which house is Isaiah 54 talking about? I think both.
It starts by telling the barren woman without a husband to sing because she will have more children than the married woman.
This barren woman doesn't have a husband. This is not talking about Sarah. Sarah was the married woman. This woman is not married. Yet she will have more children than the married woman.
"Sing, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
burst into song, shout for joy,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband, "
says the Lord.
This is talking about the house of Israel [northern ten tribes],and, as you know I believe, of Christian church with its two billion members. She was divorced and barren and lost, yet she will sing because she will have more children than the married woman [house of Judah].
Then in verse 4 the subject changes to a woman who is married and widowed [not divorced], a deserted wife, a rejected young wife, who will be called back by her husband, the Holy One of Israel. She was abandoned for a brief moment and He hid His face from her yet, he will have compassion on her and bring her back. This sounds like the house of Judah.
Then in verse 11, he goes on to talk about an afflicted city, lashed by storms and not comforted. He will rebuild her with beautiful stones and the children of this city will be taught by the LORD, and peace and righteousness established in her forever. This is talking about the city of Jerusalem.
I could say more, but I'll leave it here for now.
I will say this, though, somewhere in Isaiah 54 is a love letter to every one of us.
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2012, 03:12:00 AM
wow..you agree, Jab? It's beautiful, isn't it?
Even more beautiful if you could only agree that the Gentile church is the lost tribes of Israel, for the promise was given to Abraham before he was circumcised, while he was still a Gentile. The children of the promise are the Gentiles, and always were. And, so, ALL Israel will be saved. :dsunny:
But, I can wait. :coffee2:
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. Rom 4:11
:) yeah, I agree with my thumbs-upped quotes.
Now, about the lost tribes. RIGHT NOW, I could really entertain the thought that perhaps the 10 lost tribes were/are the Gentiles. BUT, here's where I think RIGHT NOW we diverge..I still doubt when Jesus said He came only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel, that's who He was talking about, i.e., the ten lost tribes of the Gentiles. Here's one of the main sticking points for me - the Samaritan woman. A Gentile, who Jesus initially "ignored", then finally said (as I understand) that He did not "come for her" [at that time/moment]. Which leads me to believe much of His earthly ministry was to the Jews, pointing to their impending rejection of Him and their judgment in 70 AD. So if you see the 10 lost tribes as Gentiles, and the lost sheep of the House of Israel as 2 different groups, maybe you won't have to wait any longer. :laugh2: If not, please briefly explain His response to the Gentile woman and how that fits with your view, and enjoy that cup of coffee. I'll have tea. :dsunny:
I'm not sure I understand, but he has to offer salvation to the Jews first because salvation is from the Jews. The Jews must reject him in order that salvation can be brought to the Gentiles.
Look at it this way, if the Jews had accepted Jesus as their Messiah [which he was], that would be the end of it. No Gentiles. We would still be talking about Judaism, with no Christians, and no Gentiles allowed.
That's why Paul says that their blindness led to the reconciliation of the world. [Rom 11]
Remember that parable where the Master invites all his guests to the dinner but they refuse, so he tells his servants, go out to the street and pick up every stranger you find and invite them in.
"A certain man gave a great supper and invited many; sending his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, 'Come, for all things are now ready.' But they all with one accord began to make excuses. The first said to him, 'I have bought a piece of ground, I must go and see it; I ask you to have me excused.' And another said, 'I bought five yoke of oxen and I am going to test them; I ask you to have me excused too.' Another said, 'I have married a wife and therefore I cannot come.' So the servant came and reported these things to his master and the master of the house being angry, said to his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and the lanes of the city and bring here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.' And the servant said, 'Master, it is done as you have commanded and still there is room.' The master said to the servant, 'Go out in the highways and the hedges and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say to you, that none of those men, who were invited, shall taste my supper." (Luke 14:15-24)
Until the fulfillment of the Gentiles he will still send his servants out to the streets to invite everyone they can find. But, the Jews have to reject him first, and crucify him, for this to occur. Remember he says to the Samaritan woman, as to all the Gentiles that throw themselves at him, 'Your faith has saved you." This is the faith of their father Abraham.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. <--[tribe of Judah]
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. <---[children of the promise]
---John 1
Yes, I'm pretty good with that.
Make this will make sense;
do you believe (and can show) the 10 lost tribes (Gentiles) are the same or different than the group in "I came not except for the lost sheep of the House of Israel"?
Quote from: jabcat on August 26, 2012, 02:25:14 PM
Yes, I'm pretty good with that.
Make this will make sense;
do you believe (and can show) the 10 lost tribes (Gentiles) are the same or different than the group in "I came not except for the lost sheep of the House of Israel"?
Obviously I think they are the same group.
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman,
great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
--Mat 15
His disciples say to him, Send that annoying [Gentile] woman away. But, instead he says to them, I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So, in other words, no, he won't send her away because she might be one of the lost sheep.
The 'house of Israel' is the title of the ten northern tribes. It is in the text this way, in the Greek, 'house of Israel'. In the Old Testament, the New Covenant promises were made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. I don't know how else to 'prove' it to you.
But, consider this, even though he has to offer salvation to the Jews first, and even though he is the Jewish Messiah, who was he sent to? If he was sent to the Jews, house of Judah, he failed miserably. [Same argument used for UR].
The longest quotation in the Greek Scripture (Hebrews 88-12) from the Hebrew language Scripture is from Jeremiah. It is the description of the New Covenant. From what it says I can see clearly by reverse engineering that I am of the House of Israel and the House of Judah. I am blessed with faithful Abraham, following the footsteps he made while as yet uncircumcised.
Quote from: reFORMer on August 26, 2012, 03:16:20 PM
The longest quotation in the Greek Scripture (Hebrews 88-12) from the Hebrew language Scripture is from Jeremiah. It is the description of the New Covenant. From what it says I can see clearly by reverse engineering that I am of the House of Israel and the House of Judah. I am blessed with faithful Abraham, following the footsteps he made while as yet uncircumcised.
Not sure what you mean by both. Abraham had faith before he was circumcised, while he was still a Gentile, hence he is the father of those who are not of the house of Judah but are justified by faith alone.
The Jews will believe when they see him coming in glory at the end of the age.
But blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes.
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2012, 02:58:26 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 26, 2012, 02:25:14 PM
Yes, I'm pretty good with that.
Make this will make sense;
do you believe (and can show) the 10 lost tribes (Gentiles) are the same or different than the group in "I came not except for the lost sheep of the House of Israel"?
Obviously I think they are the same group.
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
--Mat 15
His disciples say to him, Send that annoying [Gentile] woman away. But, instead he says to them, I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So, in other words, no, he won't send her away because she might be one of the lost sheep.
The 'house of Israel' is the title of the ten northern tribes. It is in the text this way, in the Greek, 'house of Israel'. In the Old Testament, the New Covenant promises were made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. I don't know how else to 'prove' it to you.
But, consider this, even though he has to offer salvation to the Jews first, and even though he is the Jewish Messiah, who was he sent to? If he was sent to the Jews, house of Judah, he failed miserably. [Same argument used for UR].
Yeah, that's where I thought we started seeing it differently. I'm understanding that scenario differently. I see Him not responding to her, saying instead He was sent to someone else. Then when she continued, He responded to her, but it was not His first response. She also admitted she was a "dog" and only would get the crumbs (which I believe was only temporary, until the gospel did go to the Gentiles, after the cross) while in that current time period, the Jews got the "good stuff", i.e., His offer and attention (which they would refuse- BY DESIGN).
As far as this "But, consider this, even though he has to offer salvation to the Jews first, and even though he is the Jewish Messiah, who was he sent to? If he was sent to the Jews, house of Judah, he failed miserably. [Same argument used for UR]." I look at it this way; He had to come and bring the "official offer" to the Jews first, that's why He was sent to them...it had to be that way, so they'd "officially" and "finally" deny Him (until they're finally brought in at the end of the age or beginning of the next), then the gospel was "free" to go to the Gentiles. So that wouldn't make Him a failure, that would make it "mission accomplished", that part of the plan fulfilled - so the next steps could occur (crucifixion, gospel to Gentiles). So I present it as that POV, with the caveat that I'm certainly willing to look at other possibilities. But if what I just presented isn't accurate, then what do we do with Jesus' earthly ministry? It appears to me it was obviously mostly directed at the Jews, actively engaging them in rejecting Him, leading to His crucifixion and the fulfillment of that age at 70 AD. So with still much of His teachings about the culmination of that age, what they were facing (rich man and Lazarus which was about Israel), etc.
I guess I could see this as a possibility; if Him saying He came for the Gentiles who would believe in Him (lost tribes/lost sheep), then what He meant by that was primarily about the upcoming cross and the gospel then going to them who would believe on Him as Savior, and by saying that wasn't addressing much at all the majority of His earthly ministry pre-cross, which again, seems very primarily directed at the Jews in that age and their impending judgment. So I'm not sure if all that can fit together that way. Maybe so :)
But doesn't this present a little need for further thought about it? :scratchhead:
"Do not go among the Gentiles, or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6).
Ok Let's look at it from the point of view of his sheep. What identifies them? They know his voice and they follow him because they know he is their Shepherd.
Doesn't this describe the 2 billion Gentile Christian church?
So is he saying these are the lost sheep of the house of Israel?
He is not a 'stranger' to them:
John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." John 10:5
They are the called out ones:
John 10:3 The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
They are his followers:
John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
They know him and they know who he is:
John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--
If the Gentile church is not the lost sheep of the house of Israel,
what sheep are they?
perhaps the "sheep of another fold"? I really don't know for sure. There may be even other options. :dontknow:
But notice the distinction He makes in the Matthew 10:5,6 passage, between the Gentiles and the lost sheep of the House of Israel. That looks to me like 2 different groups?
And really, my own personal main issue with this is, what the focus of His earthly ministry was, leading up to and prior to the cross; as I think that's important for context of scriptures that I believe often gets mixed together in many teachings. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on August 26, 2012, 03:54:25 PM
But doesn't this present a little need for further thought about it? :scratchhead:
"Do not go among the Gentiles, or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6).
He is sending them to Jewish cities first because he must offer salvation to the Jews first. But, then he says this to the Jews:
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
--John 10
So the definition of a sheep is one who believes. One who knows his voice. One who follows him. And, who believes in him? The Christian Gentile church.
Jesus is born a Jew. He is the Jewish Messiah. The Jews reject him. Therefore, they are not his sheep.
But, look who believes him: millions of people who have historically been at odds with the Jews, people that the Jews would have nothing to do with because they are 'unclean,' --How does that happen? Is it just out of the blue? Wouldn't scripture prophesy about this incredible event?
It does!
10 Yet
the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
--Hos 1
Today in the world, there are 2 billion Christians and 15 million Jews.
Which ones qualify for that verse describing the children of Israel?
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2012, 03:19:54 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on August 26, 2012, 03:16:20 PM
The longest quotation in the Greek Scripture (Hebrews 88-12) from the Hebrew language Scripture is from Jeremiah. It is the description of the New Covenant. From what it says I can see clearly by reverse engineering that I am of the House of Israel and the House of Judah. I am blessed with faithful Abraham, following the footsteps he made while as yet uncircumcised.
Not sure what you mean by both. Abraham had faith before he was circumcised, while he was still a Gentile, hence he is the father of those who are not of the house of Judah but are justified by faith alone.
The Jews will believe when they see him coming in glory at the end of the age.
But blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes.
While I didn't intend to go there, I presume the reason you say, "Not sure what you mean by both" is it doesn't maintain the rebuilding of the wall between Jew and Gentile that was torn down by Jesus' death. Keeping the distinction as a principle defining "spiritual" substance is an idea pounded into a dipsinsationalist's head. John Hagee goes so far as to teach Jews do not need to come to faith in Jesus because they are saved by another covenant than the New Covenant in Christ.
However, there is only the new man now. Even before Jesus, people not carnally born to it could join themselves (as the Law provided) to the commonwealth of Israel. A religious, cultural, or carnal and racial distinction of Jew and Gentile are identities that count for nothing before God, only faith in Christ matters. The only kinds of human are Adam or Christ.
27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.
29 Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment according to the promise. (Galatians 3
27-29, Concordant Literal)
Quote from: reFORMer on August 26, 2012, 05:38:44 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2012, 03:19:54 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on August 26, 2012, 03:16:20 PM
The longest quotation in the Greek Scripture (Hebrews 88-12) from the Hebrew language Scripture is from Jeremiah. It is the description of the New Covenant. From what it says I can see clearly by reverse engineering that I am of the House of Israel and the House of Judah. I am blessed with faithful Abraham, following the footsteps he made while as yet uncircumcised.
Not sure what you mean by both. Abraham had faith before he was circumcised, while he was still a Gentile, hence he is the father of those who are not of the house of Judah but are justified by faith alone.
The Jews will believe when they see him coming in glory at the end of the age.
But blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes.
While I didn't intend to go there, I presume the reason you say, "Not sure what you mean by both" is it doesn't maintain the rebuilding of the wall between Jew and Gentile that was torn down by Jesus' death. Keeping the distinction as a principle defining "spiritual" substance is an idea pounded into a dipsinsationalist's head. John Hagee goes so far as to teach Jews do not need to come to faith in Jesus because they are saved by another covenant than the New Covenant in Christ.
However, there is only the new man now. Even before Jesus, people not carnally born to it could join themselves (as the Law provided) to the commonwealth of Israel. A religious, cultural, or carnal and racial distinction of Jew and Gentile are identities that count for nothing before God, only faith in Christ matters. The only kinds of human are Adam or Christ.
27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.
29 Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment according to the promise. (Galatians 327-29, Concordant Literal)
Abraham himself was both. But he's kind of a unique figure. That's why he's called Abraham, 'father of a multitude.'
There is the new man. There are also still Jews and Gentiles. There is a lot of prophecy about the Jews, i.e. tribe of Judah, in both the OT and the NT. I don't see anything wrong with discussing it, as Paul does extensively in Romans and elsewhere. Certainly no one here is saying they will be saved apart from Jesus.
For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says, 'The stone that you builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
--Acts 4
But neither do I think that God will go back on his promises to the house of Judah, just as I do not think he went back on his promises to the house of Israel, [for those who are thinking the house of Israel just disappeared forever off the face of the earth.] This is not about who we are. It is about who God is.
He will not say he is going to do something and then not do it.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
In reading over speculations that Gentiles are the "lost ten tribes", it leaves me puzzled about a few things in Revelation & the 144,000.
The Greek word for "lost" as used in the old King James English is much different than the Greek word which means "punishment". When Christ is referring to the so-called "lost ten tribes" his literal meaning is the "punished ten tribes", it is not a reference of their identity being obscured but rather their relationship to God being as a people in a state of punishment for their past deeds of idolatry which was the reason God had the Assyrians take them captive back to Assyria to the region of Babylon where they were joined a few decades later by the southern tribes. Judah & Israel joined each other in captivity in the region of Babylon, remixed with one another & all 12 tribes from that time forward are commonly identified as Jews.
All those who are identified as Jews today are not all of the southern tribe of Judah, many Jews use the names of all the northern 10 tribes, eg; Reuben, Ephraim, etc. This came about as the southern & northern tribes mixed with one another after Nebuchadnezzar took the southern tribes captive & held them in the same region of Babylon that 100 years before was Assyria.
Today it is not all that difficult to identify where the progeny of the northern tribes are today, go to any synagogue outside of Israel & you can meet them, they call themselves Jews but most are really of the so-called lost ten tribes who in actuality are not lost but under banishment (Gr: punishment) from the land of promise. But with the gathering of the 144,000 of all the 12 tribes (except for Dan) during the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy this will end, and eventually all the 12 will be settled into the land from which they were banished.
Presently only those of the southern tribe of Judah have returned to the land of promise, the remaining 10 tribes remain scattered (banished) & living throughout the Western world of Christendom & while technically calling themselves Jews (they practice the religion of Judaism) many are aware they are actually progeny of the northern 10 tribes. God knows those who are his, he alone can separate who among world Jewry are of which tribe & he has stated in Revelation that he will do exactly that, he just hides from us exactly how he will do it.
Too many in the world of Christendom have attempted to abscond with promises & prophecies that are intended only for Israel, & I feel this line of thought, that Gentiles of the present day Christian Church are now the so-called "lost" ten tribes, falls into the same category. It doesn't fit into the prophecy of Revelation to make such a stretch of the imagination.
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2012, 07:22:07 PM
...
Abraham himself was both. But he's kind of a unique figure. That's why he's called Abraham, 'father of a multitude.'
There is the new man. There are also still Jews and Gentiles. There is a lot of prophecy about the Jews, i.e. tribe of Judah, in both the OT and the NT. I don't see anything wrong with discussing it, as Paul does extensively in Romans and elsewhere. Certainly no one here is saying they will be saved apart from Jesus.
For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says, 'The stone that you builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
--Acts 4
But neither do I think that God will go back on his promises to the house of Judah, just as I do not think he went back on his promises to the house of Israel, [for those who are thinking the house of Israel just disappeared forever off the face of the earth.] This is not about who we are. It is about who God is.
He will not say he is going to do something and then not do it.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Many of the Jews living in 70 A.D. probably thought along similar lines. "God cannot ignore his promises to the house of Judah." "God promised in Jeremiah that 'In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely.'"
When the Roman armies were camped on the hills around the city, it must have looked like this might be Zechariah's prophecy coming true:
Zechariah 14:1-3
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
What Jew in Jerusalem could have read this prophecy, and not expected that the Lord would soon go forth and fight against their enemies, and give them a great victory? And cleave the mount of Olives? Even Zechariah said "Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited." But, that is not what happened. They misread the prophecies, and they ignored the warnings of the apostles, who said Jerusalem was now
heavenly.Isaiah had said that Jerusalem and mount Zion would be
established in the top of the mountains, and shall be
exalted above the hills, and that was fulfilled when Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, where he was "made Christ," receiving an eternal throne in Jerusalem, over all of the house of Israel, as David had also reigned over all Israel at Jerusalem.
Isaiah 2:1-3
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
After Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, Jerusalem was in heaven, and was called "Jerusalem which is above," and "the mother of us all." [Gal. 4:26] The earthly city, "Jerusalem which now is," was cast aside, and identified with Hagar. All believers have come "unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem." [Heb. 12:22]
Paul viewed the history of Old Testament Israel as a type and a figure, intended for "our examples." He wrote, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.... Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." [1 Corinthians 10:6, 11]
Peter said the prophets "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you." [1 Peter 1:10] They wrote of the gospel, and the future blessings and grace to come upon those who believe in Christ. Often, the nations of Israel, Judah, and the city of Jerusalem, and other nations, were figures and metaphors, and these need to be interpreted, as the apostles often did, in the NT. For example, see Acts 15:16.
Peter said, "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." [1 Peter 1:12]
Circumcision of the flesh now counted for nothing.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
The true circumcision was that "without hands," and of the heart. Paul said,
Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
The promises to Israel now applied to the Israel that was by faith in Christ, not ethnic Jews. This Israel included Gentile believers, who were grafted in, and Jews who did not believe in Christ were branches broken off from their tree. Any who rejected Christ was cut off, and was no longer in Israel, as the law had said.
Acts 3:18-23
But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be
destroyed from among the people.
The gospel makes all the racial theories
void.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Notes on the time of Jacob's trouble, also known as the Great Tribulation.
This is the time leading up to the day of the Lord, or the second coming of Jesus.
Jesus will return to cut that time short and deliver his holy people.
The time of Jacob's trouble is described as unprecedented in human history.
Jer 30
THAT DAY IS GREAT, NONE IS LIKE IT
Dan 12
A TIME OF TROUBLE SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION
THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES
Mat 24
Jesus himself says,
FOR THEN THERE SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE.
These statements alone are sufficient to prove that the prophecy about Jacob's trouble was not fulfilled in 70 ad or even to this day.
more notes
The time of Jacob's trouble is end time, not 70 ad.
the shattering of the Jewish people at the time of the end.
Dan 11 and 12 11:21--12:13
Dan 12:7 How long? When the power of the holy people has been shattered then these things will be done.
Mat 24
an age ending assault which begins with the abomination that causes desolation
This age ends with a gentile expression of rage against the holy covenant
The disciples ask Jesus in Matthew 24, what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?
Jesus quotes verbatim selections from Dan 11 and 12
birth pangs, social pressure, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet daniel standing in the holy place --you need to understand the passage I'm quoting. It is a command to go read it--
Let those who are in Judea flee--run--don't take anything--urgency--run for your lives--
This is talking about an invasion of Jerusalem. This is the event that kicks off the end time storm. When you see the siege beginning get out of Judea. It will last 42 months. The inhabitants of Judea are biblically commanded to leave. Mat 24:15 is a biblical command. Zech and Isa tell us the city will be blockaded. That's why the sense of urgency. GET OUT NOW.
Isa 28--those of a foreign stammering tongue will be quoting the Hebrew scripture to the people of Israel. and the people will scoff at them.
This is decreed desolation for the city of Jerusalem.
Jesus quotes Dan 12 ---then there will be great time of trouble as there has never been and never will be again. If those days had not been cut short no human flesh would remain.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days, which last 42 months, sun and moon will be darkened, then Jesus will return and resurrection of the dead, the elect will be caught up in the air.
This takes us to the very time of the second coming and the gathering of the elect.
The desolation of Jerusalem is the pre-eminent sign of the end of the age and the return of Jesus.
Dan 12:7--this is the shattering of the holy people.
The closer we get to the end, the more revelation we will receive--book of Daniel tells us it is sealed unto the time of the end.
Daniel 11
verse 21-22 Rise of the Antichrist. The desolator. A vile person. He will come in without warning and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. He immediately commands an army.
verse 23-31 The time between his rise and his abomination. He leads three military campaigns against Egypt. The third time he will enter Jerusalem and the tribulation will begin. His military forces will set up the abomination of desolation. Jesus quotes verse 31 in Mat 24.:15
Verse 32--onwards Describes the tribulation
Dan:12 " 1 At that time---when the abomination that causes desolation is set up--Michael will stand up and the trouble begins--Mat 24: 22-24
Dan 12:7 this will last for 3 1/2 years and the shattering of the holy people will come to an end
12:11 1290 days after A of D is set up the tribulation will cease
Dan 12
Daniel is told that this trouble culminates in the salvation of Israel. "your people shall be delivered.' It ends in salvation of the Jews. The dark night of tribulation will end in salvation and the resurrection of the dead.
Jesus teaches this right out of Dan 11 and 12. He says these things are fulfilled right before the second coming. It's about the time of the end of the age.
This time of trouble is started by a single cruel man, who sets up the abomination that causes desolation in the holy place. You will watch his emergence and his campaign against Egypt and recognize him. The first time he succeeds against Egypt. The second time naval forces oppose him and make him afraid. And then he gets mad at Israel, and with rage against the holy covenant invades Jerusalem. He will come to his end with none to help him.
In second thess 2 Paul quotes Daniel--Jesus will come and destroy the Antichrist.
We who are living in the end times are finishing the great commission started by the Apostles and like them, living under the same shadow as they did, of the invasion and destruction of Jerusalem. 70ad was a foreshadowing of what is to come. We are finishing the great commission.
Jerusalem will be the eye of the storm. At the heart of this is 'rage against the holy covenant.' It is mentioned four times by Daniel. It has to do with the Gentile conflict over the everlasting promise of the land to Israel. The Antichrist's heart is set against the holy covenant. The Gentiles are offended at the covenant that God made with the Israelites about the land. The Antichrist will seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant. But the people who know their God will stand firm against him.
He hates the very concept of the promised land and the election of the Jewish people.
It is an everlasting covenant. God will not break his promise. God's nature is at stake here. God gives the land to the Israelites because of the grace shown to Abraham. This is all about covenant and grace. It's about a God of grace who makes an everlasting covenant and will not back out on it. It's not about Israel. It's about God's grace and that grace will stand by covenant. It's about a God who made a covenant that he will not break.
This enrages the Antichrist. Israel is an object lesson to expose the hatred in the human heart about grace. "They don't deserve it." Precisely, --that is what grace is---unmerited favor.
Quote from: Paul L on August 26, 2012, 11:19:44 PM
In reading over speculations that Gentiles are the "lost ten tribes", it leaves me puzzled about a few things in Revelation & the 144,000.
The Greek word for "lost" as used in the old King James English is much different than the Greek word which means "punishment". When Christ is referring to the so-called "lost ten tribes" his literal meaning is the "punished ten tribes", it is not a reference of their identity being obscured but rather their relationship to God being as a people in a state of punishment for their past deeds of idolatry which was the reason God had the Assyrians take them captive back to Assyria to the region of Babylon where they were joined a few decades later by the southern tribes. Judah & Israel joined each other in captivity in the region of Babylon, remixed with one another & all 12 tribes from that time forward are commonly identified as Jews.
I cannot remember any place Christ referred to the "lost ten tribes" as you say. I trust we all will have much better mental function in the not so distant future. You could utter a little prayer that I would be surmounting any challenges of this sort.
Quote from: Paul L on August 26, 2012, 11:19:44 PM
All those who are identified as Jews today are not all of the southern tribe of Judah, many Jews use the names of all the northern 10 tribes, eg; Reuben, Ephraim, etc. This came about as the southern & northern tribes mixed with one another after Nebuchadnezzar took the southern tribes captive & held them in the same region of Babylon that 100 years before was Assyria.
Today it is not all that difficult to identify where the progeny of the northern tribes are today, go to any synagogue outside of Israel & you can meet them, they call themselves Jews but most are really of the so-called lost ten tribes who in actuality are not lost but under banishment (Gr: punishment) from the land of promise. But with the gathering of the 144,000 of all the 12 tribes (except for Dan) during the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy this will end, and eventually all the 12 will be settled into the land from which they were banished.
The other mention of a 144,00 in Revelation has no tribal connection. Many think it may be a Gentile other half. In (I think it was) 4th Esdras is the idea these are a corporate "two witnesses." Britton suggested it's those on the other side of death's veil coming into a manifest victory simultaneously, "The dead shall rise first," with the tribal 144,000. I tend to think the "Jewish" 144,000 rose from the dead as complete Overcomers when Jesus raised from the dead. They are following Him where ever He goes. The other 144,000 are the Overcomers of our generation (40 years) who must manifest as we transition into the Millennium or, "Age of Tabernacles," as it may be called. These may be even now beginning to enter into incorruptible immortality.
Quote from: Paul L on August 26, 2012, 11:19:44 PM
Presently only those of the southern tribe of Judah have returned to the land of promise, the remaining 10 tribes remain scattered (banished) & living throughout the Western world of Christendom & while technically calling themselves Jews (they practice the religion of Judaism) many are aware they are actually progeny of the northern 10 tribes. God knows those who are his, he alone can separate who among world Jewry are of which tribe & he has stated in Revelation that he will do exactly that, he just hides from us exactly how he will do it.
What you're saying here has a practical similarity to what seemed the best explanation I've found concerning the other 10 tribes. I've tried to re-locate it several times, but Keil and Delitzsch in probably Jeremiah, possibly Ezekiel (and failing all else, remotely Isaiah,) in a number of pages discuss the primarily Biblical evidence as well as history that makes it plain these 10 tribes were subsumed into there rest of those returning from the Babylonian captivity. Nowhere else have I encountered so very much scripture that goes unnoticed by most that vent on the topic
Quote from: Paul L on August 26, 2012, 11:19:44 PM
Too many in the world of Christendom have attempted to abscond with promises & prophecies that are intended only for Israel, & I feel this line of thought, that Gentiles of the present day Christian Church are now the so-called "lost" ten tribes, falls into the same category. It doesn't fit into the prophecy of Revelation to make such a stretch of the imagination.
It appears the underlying mistake is requiring a carnal category, a certain racial group identity to qualify those receiving the Word of God; like, this tribe, those descendants through the flesh from certain ones racially identified, or, Gentiles' racially profiled. I seem to have missed whatever prophecy from Revelation your are referring to there at the last.
Quote from: ReformerI cannot remember any place Christ referred to the "lost ten tribes" as you say
But, he does refer to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal . House of Israel is the title the Bible gives to the northern ten tribes. I may be wrong, but I"m not aware of the 12 tribes of Israel ever being called the house of Israel. I've always seen house of Israel in juxtaposition to house of Judah, referring to the splitting of the kingdom.
Quotein probably Jeremiah, possibly Ezekiel (and failing all else, remotely Isaiah,) in a number of pages discuss the primarily Biblical evidence as well as history that makes it plain these 10 tribes were subsumed into there rest of those returning from the Babylonian captivity. Nowhere else have I encountered so very much scripture that goes unnoticed by most that vent on the topic
I'm sure that some of the tribes mixed and mingled with those who returned. Whether all did is open to speculation. But, don't forget, the northern kingdom was huge. It was five times bigger in population than the southern kingdom, and most of those were lost to history. Also, if you look at the Jews and count them, they don't seem to meet the level of sand of the sea. In fact, it's kind of shocking how small their group is in number, 15 million worldwide.
QuoteIt appears the underlying mistake is requiring a carnal category, a certain racial group identity to qualify those receiving the Word of God; like, this tribe, those descendants through the flesh from certain ones racially identified, or, Gentiles' racially profiled. I seem to have missed whatever prophecy from Revelation your are referring to there at the last.
It's not about race or racial identity at all. No one could possibly know the identity today of tribes lost 3000 years ago. It's about a story that has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and about promises made to a people that were fulfilled, not by another people, but by that same people. But it's not worth upsetting people over it. If such a thing were true, God would know, so we don't have to worry ourselves about it anyway.
Quote from: reFORMer on August 27, 2012, 04:04:42 PM
Quote from: Paul L on August 26, 2012, 11:19:44 PM
In reading over speculations that Gentiles are the "lost ten tribes", it leaves me puzzled about a few things in Revelation & the 144,000.
I cannot remember any place Christ referred to the "lost ten tribes" as you say. I trust we all will have much better mental function in the not so distant future. You could utter a little prayer that I would be surmounting any challenges of this sort.
Quote from: Paul L on August 26, 2012, 11:19:44 PM
Matt 10:6 & Matt 15:24
The other mention of a 144,00 in Revelation has no tribal connection.
It appears the underlying mistake is requiring a carnal category, a certain racial group identity to qualify those receiving the Word of God; like, this tribe, those descendants through the flesh from certain ones racially identified, or, Gentiles' racially profiled. I seem to have missed whatever prophecy from Revelation your are referring to there at the last.
[/quote]
How about Rev 7:4-14 These all came "out of the great tribulation", the 144000 of the 12 sons of Israel with each of the 12 tribes listed except for Dan but with Joseph's two sons listed to bring the total to 12. This is most certainly an unmistakable "tribal connection" .
Molly, reFormer,
What I see going on here is the continuing debate between Dispensationalism & Preterism. Dispensationalists believe there is room for the endtime nationalism of endtime Israel as described in Revelation, but Preterists believe Revelation has been fulfilled in historical accounts of the Christian church.
Preterism had its' rise in Catholic theology whereas Dispensationalism began its' rise in the 1800's as many Protestants began to see the obvious problems of the substitution of the Christian church in absconding with the promises clearly given only to Israel (all 12 tribes, not just Jews).
Much of the present day interpretation of Revelation is a mix of Preterism & Dispensationalism, but among non-Catholic groups is strongly trending away from Preterism (the Catholic interpretation) to literal fulfillment as espoused in Dispensationalism. But even among many Dispensationalists there are disagreements with regard how far to go in "literally": interpreting the entirety of the book of Revelation & this basically descibes the discussion several of us are having here with our postings.
My view of Revelation is that there is no message here to the Christian Church, the Body of Christ has been removed from the scene & on the first Day of the Lord the messages to the 7 ecclesias are delivered and the time of "Jacob's trouble" moves into high gear. Holdover Preterists do not see things this way & many Dispensationalists are not willing to go all the way with this either, they want to hold onto their " 7 Christian churches" which distorts the point made by Christ himself in Rev 1:10-11 that the messages to these 7 ecclesias are all made on the same day of the opening of the Day of the Lord, "Jacob's trouble" if you will & are delivered to seven Jewish synagogues in a country we today call Turkey. The 7 ecclesias are not a history of the Christian church, but there remains most Dispensationalists who do not see it this way, well, so be it, but time will change their minds as we get closer to the Day of the Lord, we're just not yet close enough for them to see it any differently.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn, that he has done it.
--Psalm 22
"to a people yet unborn" I love that. And, it even implies he knows who they are.
"to a people yet unborn" I love that. And, it even implies he knows who they are.
There are 350,000. New babies born each day.
350,000 new souls.
Kind of makes the Fields are ripe an understatement
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 01:06:02 AM
Molly, reFormer,
What I see going on here is the continuing debate between Dispensationalism & Preterism. Dispensationalists believe there is room for the endtime nationalism of endtime Israel as described in Revelation, but Preterists believe Revelation has been fulfilled in historical accounts of the Christian church.
Preterism had its' rise in Catholic theology whereas Dispensationalism began its' rise in the 1800's as many Protestants began to see the obvious problems of the substitution of the Christian church in absconding with the promises clearly given only to Israel (all 12 tribes, not just Jews).
Much of the present day interpretation of Revelation is a mix of Preterism & Dispensationalism, but among non-Catholic groups is strongly trending away from Preterism (the Catholic interpretation) to literal fulfillment as espoused in Dispensationalism. But even among many Dispensationalists there are disagreements with regard how far to go in "literally": interpreting the entirety of the book of Revelation & this basically descibes the discussion several of us are having here with our postings.
It is probably even more complex than you have depicted here. Preterism and dispensationalism are like two sides of the same coin; they each insist that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are 490 years. For dispensationalists, the 70 weeks prophecy, and their interpretation of it, is viewed as the key to understanding all prophecy.
OTOH, for preterists, the key verse is probably Matthew 24:34: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." They take this to mean all prophecy would be fulfilled in that generation. But they exclude Jesus. He is alive, and he remains part of that generation, so it has not yet passed away!
One can view both preterism and dispensationalism as two different ways of explaining how the 490 years of the 70 weeks work out, in the overall prophetic plan. Basically, their interpretations of the first 69 weeks are quite similar. It is the 70th week that causes contention. But both groups insist the 70th week is seven literal years. Preterists say it was fulfilled in the first century. Some deny any gap between the 69th and 70th week; others allow a gap, and put the last half-week in the period before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Dispensationalists say the 70th week is yet future. The dispensationalist/preterist premises thus have much in common. They vie with each other over which is the more "literal."
Each group publishes lots of books. There are well informed scholars on each side of the debate. Within each group, there are factions that do battle with one another. Preterists are divided between the full or hyper preterists on the one hand, and the partial preterists on the other. Dispensationalists are more diverse. They are split between the classical, revised, progressive, utradispensationalism, mid-Acts dispensationalism, and several other camps. The Watchtower or JW organization seems to be a form of dispensationalism. There is often more intense debate between members of the internal divisions, than between people on opposite sides. An example is the discourse by H. Ironside against Bullingerism, or ultradispensationalism, which he condemned.
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 01:06:02 AM
My view of Revelation is that there is no message here to the Christian Church, the Body of Christ has been removed from the scene & on the first Day of the Lord the messages to the 7 ecclesias are delivered and the time of "Jacob's trouble" moves into high gear. Holdover Preterists do not see things this way & many Dispensationalists are not willing to go all the way with this either, they want to hold onto their " 7 Christian churches" which distorts the point made by Christ himself in Rev 1:10-11 that the messages to these 7 ecclesias are all made on the same day of the opening of the Day of the Lord, "Jacob's trouble" if you will & are delivered to seven Jewish synagogues in a country we today call Turkey. The 7 ecclesias are not a history of the Christian church, but there remains most Dispensationalists who do not see it this way, well, so be it, but time will change their minds as we get closer to the Day of the Lord, we're just not yet close enough for them to see it any differently.
A way of reconciling Christians of each group would be if both were to come to the realization that Christ reigns throughout the present age, and continues to confirm his covenant with his saints, as stated in Daniel 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." The week includes his earthly ministry, and
all the time since. The present age is the "time, times and a half" of prophecy. But they would then have to abandon the idea that the 70th week consists of a literal 7 years. But there is abundant evidence it is not. For example, the 1,260 days, and 42 months, are not equal to three and a half years. The 1,290 days and 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12 do not equal three and a half years. Neither are any of these numbers equal to each other. In the Jewish calendar, the number of days in three and a half years could vary, but none of these numbers fit. Therefore, concluding the numbers represent not a literal, but a symbolic period of time, is well founded. The dispensationalist/preterist mantra that the years are literal is mere chatter, noise without substance, clouds blown by wind, etc.
The times that apply to Christ and his heavenly city are not
earth days,
earth months, or
earth years, as those are physical, earthly units, and for God, the times in which he accomplishes things are not determined by the motions of physical things like the earth and the moon. Peter expressed the principle as, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [2 Pet. 3:8] For God,
time is something other than what it is for us. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." [Isa. 55:8-9] We can see this principle holds for the events of creation too.
So the last half-week in Daniel's 70 weeks is not a
literal three years and a half. The premises of the dispensationalists and preterists are flawed, IMO. The last half of the 70th week is figurative, since it applies to the
heavenly city, which Christ is building, the church. All the previous sixty nine and a half weeks, however, apply to the earthly city, and they are fulfilled by weeks of natural years and weeks of leap years. They predict the time of Christ's ministry quite accurately, if counted from the decree of Cyrus, 7 weeks of leap years = 133 years, and then 62 weeks of regular sabbatical cycles, 434 years, all of which works out to the beginning of the ministry of Jesus in 28 AD.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Doug,
Sure 1260 days fits 3 1/2 years: 1260/360= 3.5 (Jewish calendar, not Georgian)
The other days of 1290 & 1335 are in reference to reconstruction after the 1260 days of the Tribulation have expired.
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 12:05:19 AM
Doug,
Sure 1260 days fits 3 1/2 years: 1260/360= 3.5 (Jewish calendar, not Georgian)
The other days of 1290 & 1335 are in reference to reconstruction after the 1260 days of the Tribulation have expired.
In the Jewish Calendar, months began with the observation of the new moon. The months varied in length as a result. 30 days is only an approximation.
The Jewish calendar, like the Babylonian one, is a lunisolar calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunisolar_calendar). Years were either 12 or 13 months.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 12:15:20 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 12:05:19 AM
Doug,
Sure 1260 days fits 3 1/2 years: 1260/360= 3.5 (Jewish calendar, not Georgian)
The other days of 1290 & 1335 are in reference to reconstruction after the 1260 days of the Tribulation have expired.
In the Jewish Calendar, months began with the observation of the new moon. The months varied in length as a result. 30 days is only an approximation.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Sure the physical duration of the "length" of a month had a variability associated with it as is created by the wobble of the Earth as it spins on its' axis & some days are longer & shorter than others for the same reason, but that is not the issue here. The issue is the hard
number of those days & months as stated in the scripture disassociated from Earth's wobble. I frankly still do not get your point there is not an exact fit here.
Daniel puts a lot of effort into giving us all these numbers. To just brush them off as not being real seems a bit harsh.
Start counting from the day that daniel starts counting and you will get your numbers working out accurately. For instance, if Daniel says start counting when you see the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy city, and he tells you what will happen at the end of the count, he's giving you a template, an overview, for how this is going to all play out. Isn't that what prophecy does? Not use random obscure meaningless numbers that are not applicable to anything...
If this is prophecy written for the current days, then surely they would use the same calendars that we use, otherwise it would be useless to us. So, yes, 42 months does equal 3 1/2 years. And, I suspect, if Daniel is talling us something will last for 3 1/2 years, you can take it to the bank.
Lest anyone miss it, he says 3 1/2 years in 3 different ways.
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 01:10:07 AM
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 12:15:20 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 12:05:19 AM
Doug,
Sure 1260 days fits 3 1/2 years: 1260/360= 3.5 (Jewish calendar, not Georgian)
The other days of 1290 & 1335 are in reference to reconstruction after the 1260 days of the Tribulation have expired.
In the Jewish Calendar, months began with the observation of the new moon. The months varied in length as a result. 30 days is only an approximation.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Sure the physical duration of the "length" of a month had a variability associated with it as is created by the wobble of the Earth as it spins on its' axis & some days are longer & shorter than others for the same reason, but that is not the issue here. The issue is the hard number of those days & months as stated in the scripture disassociated from Earth's wobble. I frankly still do not get your point there is not an exact fit here.
The beginnings of the months and the new year in the Jewish calendar was determined by observation of the new crescent Moon. The period between the Moons phases is called the synodic month. It works out on average to about 29.53058 days. So if one were to take months as 30 days, in about 6 months he would be about 3 days out of sync with the new moon. So some months of 29 days have to be included in order to keep in sync with the phases of the moon. It is simply incorrect to say that "the Jewish year was 360 days" or that the months of the Jewish calendar were 30 days. Now we know better. They actually had years of 12 months, and years of 13 months, as an extra month was included roughly every third year, which are called leap years.
When Daniel used numbers that imply months were 30 days, he was no doubt showing that these were not meant to be natural. But this was a cryptic revelation, and the wicked were not meant to understand. Only the wise would understand. And that is what has happened; the wicked do not understand his prophecies. There is much confusion concerning their interpretation, which fulfills the prophecy. The same applies to the related numbers in Revelation. They are not natural periods, but symbolic.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Symbolic of what?
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 01:23:08 AM
Daniel puts a lot of effort into giving us all these numbers. To just brush them off as not being real seems a bit harsh.
Start counting from the day that daniel starts counting and you will get your numbers working out accurately. For instance, if Daniel says start counting when you see the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy city, and he tells you what will happen at the end of the count, he's giving you a template...
Lest anyone miss it, he says 3 1/2 years in 3 different ways.
.......and over the course of one year each diurnal cycle of day & night will be different, then the diurnal cycles repeats two & half times more until 3 1/2 years on the Jewish calendar are completed. Doug I believe is using 365 1/4 days of Earth's orbit around the sun as his base reference, but that is not the way the Jewish or Georgian calendars are constructed, there are no fractional parts of a day, so both the Jewish & Georgian calendars make up the fractional parts of a day by creating "leap years". The Jewish calendar leap year is different than the Georgian calendar leap year, but it is
only the Jewish calendar we care about here, scrap the Georgian, it will never fit.
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 01:23:08 AM
Daniel puts a lot of effort into giving us all these numbers. To just brush them off as not being real seems a bit harsh.
I do not say the periods of prophecy are not
real; what I wrote was, the prophetic periods are not a
natural three and a half years. And I think I can demonstrate that this is true. A year in the Hebrew calendar was either 12 or 13 months. This works out to either about 354 days, or about 384 days, and three years of 12 months each is about 1,063 days, add 6 months, gives 1,240 days. (These being synodic months.) If one adds an embolismic month (i.e. if one of the years was 13 months) then the total is about 1,270 days. Daniel nowhere mentioned 1,270 days, but he mentioned 1,290 days and 1,335 days. Neither did John mention 1,270 days, but 1,260 days. The prophetic periods, then, cannot be referring to a
natural three and a half years. And in three and a half
natural years, there would likely be 43 months, or, perhaps, 44 months, not 42 months. So the reality is that the numbers don't support the idea that they refer to a natural three and a half years. But the evidence is strong, that they are
symbolic.
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 01:23:08 AM
Start counting from the day that daniel starts counting and you will get your numbers working out accurately. For instance, if Daniel says start counting when you see the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy city, and he tells you what will happen at the end of the count, he's giving you a template, an overview, for how this is going to all play out. Isn't that what prophecy does? Not use random obscure meaningless numbers that are not applicable to anything...
If this is prophecy written for the current days, then surely they would use the same calendars that we use, otherwise it would be useless to us. So, yes, 42 months does equal 3 1/2 years. And, I suspect, if Daniel is talling us something will last for 3 1/2 years, you can take it to the bank.
Lest anyone miss it, he says 3 1/2 years in 3 different ways.
Daniel's numbers show that the time periods of prophecy are not a natural three and a half years, as I showed above from the Hebrew calendar. But even when the Julian calendar is used, they do not support the idea that natural periods are meant. In the Julian calendar there are 365 days in a year, and 366 in leap years. So three and a half of these years is about 1,278 days. Take three years, and add six months of 30 days, it is 1,275 days. No help there!
The truth is, I think, that the numbers in Daniel's prophecies, that fit the pattern of a time, times and a half, are symbolic of the age of the church, and the whole time of the "little horn" of chapter 7, that dominates the saints, and "scatters the power of the holy people," by flawed interpretations of prophecy. The little horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man," which suggests it represents a human viewpoint, that is opposed to the divine p.o.v.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 02:09:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 01:23:08 AM
Daniel puts a lot of effort into giving us all these numbers. To just brush them off as not being real seems a bit harsh.
Start counting from the day that daniel starts counting and you will get your numbers working out accurately. For instance, if Daniel says start counting when you see the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy city, and he tells you what will happen at the end of the count, he's giving you a template...
Lest anyone miss it, he says 3 1/2 years in 3 different ways.
.......and over the course of one year each diurnal cycle of day & night will be different, then the diurnal cycles repeats two & half times more until 3 1/2 years on the Jewish calendar are completed. Doug I believe is using 365 1/4 days of Earth's orbit around the sun as his base reference, but that is not the way the Jewish or Georgian calendars are constructed, there are no fractional parts of a day, so both the Jewish & Georgian calendars make up the fractional parts of a day by creating "leap years". The Jewish calendar leap year is different than the Georgian calendar leap year, but it is only the Jewish calendar we care about here, scrap the Georgian, it will never fit.
As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "
Georgian calendar." Do you mean "
Gregorian calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar)"?
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 01:53:11 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 01:10:07 AM
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 12:15:20 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 12:05:19 AM
When Daniel used numbers that imply months were 30 days, he was no doubt showing that these were not meant to be natural. But this was a cryptic revelation, and the wicked were not meant to understand. Only the wise would understand. And that is what has happened; the wicked do not understand his prophecies. There is much confusion concerning their interpretation, which fulfills the prophecy. The same applies to the related numbers in Revelation. They are not natural periods, but symbolic.
All I can add to this is that the discussion we've had about the using the Jewish calendar & what I've pointed out thus far is all that is necessary to count the total days & months of the 3 1/2 year period. I'll give you the point that small & specific anomalies occur therein, but clouds which obscure sunlight do not detract from the total duration of a day, the only variable in such a case being the quantity of sunlight received during the daytime period which in no way affects the measured amount of time that has passed.
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 01:56:22 AM
Symbolic of what?
IMO, the numbers represent the present church age from the ascension of Christ to his return at the end of the age, or portions of the same;
the remaining time of the church.Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 02:32:20 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 01:56:22 AM
Symbolic of what?
IMO, the numbers represent the present church age from the ascension of Christ to his return at the end of the age, or portions of the same; the remaining time of the church.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
In what way?
What does 3 1/2 years mean?
But what you are describing doesn't sound symbolic.
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 02:29:01 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 02:09:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 01:23:08 AM
Daniel puts a lot of effort into giving us all these numbers. To just brush them off as not being real seems a bit harsh.
As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "Georgian calendar." Do you mean "Gregorian calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar)"?
Doug
I'll give you that too.......the rest is Preterism so far as I can see.
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 02:36:16 AM
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 02:32:20 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 01:56:22 AM
Symbolic of what?
IMO, the numbers represent the present church age from the ascension of Christ to his return at the end of the age, or portions of the same; the remaining time of the church.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
In what way?
What does 3 1/2 years mean?
But what you are describing doesn't sound symbolic.
Many scholars have suggested that it is the biblical symbol of the inter-advent age.
For example, Gregory K. Beale, professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary, considers the time, times and a half of Daniel, and the forty two months of Revelation 11:2, and the 1,260 days when the two witnesses prophesy as representing the inter-advent age beginning from Christ's resurrection and leading up to the final judgment. In his book, John's Use of the Old Testament in Revelation [Sheffield Academic Press. 1999. p. 263.] he wrote:
John views the 'time, times and half a time' of Dan. 12:7 as the interadvent age beginning from the time of Christ's resurrection and leading up to the final judgment. The identification of the threefold time formula from Daniel is deducible especially from 12:4-6, where the period begins from the time of Christ's ascension and refers to the church's time of suffering (so also 12.14). The same meaning is apparent for the equivalent phrase 'forty-two months' in 13.5, which describes the time of the beast's blasphemous and persecuting activities.
In his Revelation commentary Beale remarks on the two witnesses:
The two witnesses prophesy for three and a half years, the same length of time that "the holy city," "the woman," and "those that tabernacle in heaven" are to be oppressed (11:2; 12:6, 14; 13:6). If these texts speak of the persecution of a community, then it is plausible to identify the witnesses likewise. If the image of an individual woman signifies the community of faith existing during the three and a half years, then the image of two individual prophets might also represent the same reality during the same time period (similarly an individual harlot represents the ungodly community in ch. 17). If it is correct to see 11:3 continuing what is in the preceding two verses, then the two witnesses are another depiction of the true Israel, "the holy city," during its time of distress. As already noted, the period of three and a half years is based on Dan. 7:25; 12:7, 11 (and perhaps Dan. 9:27), which prophesies a time of tribulation for Israel as a community. The number represents a concept rather than a literal enumeration, as with other numbers throughout the Apocalypse. ... Here the figurative emphasis is on the true covenant community experiencing tribulation, irrespective of how long the tribulation lasts in literal time.
[Beale, G. K. The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text. New International Greek Testament Commentary. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdsmans Publishing, 1999. p. 574.]
Further on he adds: [Ibid., p. 646.]
The "three and a half years" have been established as the time of tribulation predicted by Daniel 7, 9 and 12, which commences at Christ's ascension and continues until his return. Of all John's references to this time period, Rev. 12:6 is the clearest in identifying the temporal boundaries of the period (cf. 11:2-3; 13:5). Undoubtedly, here the limited age extends from the resurrection of Christ (v 5) until his final appearance (14:14-20). This is a conclusion similar to that of Rissi, who also argues that Christ's death, cited in 11:8, is the beginning point of the period in 11:2 (for Christ's death as commencing the same period in 13:5 see on 13:3). We have also seen that this period is a time of harm to believers in the earthly sphere but protection for them in the invisible realm of the divine sanctuary.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
On the 1,260 days in Revelation 12:6, the Venerable Bede (672-735), an English monk at the Northumbrian monastery of Saint Peter at Monkwearmouth wrote:
In this number of days, which makes three years and a half, he comprehends all the times of Christianity, because Christ, Whose body the Church is, preached the same length of time in the flesh.
There is a reason why the 1,260 days are not literal; they apply to the body of Christ, the spiritual temple, and the bride of the Lamb, all of which are spiritual concepts. How could earth days, and earth months, and earth years apply to them? Of course, they don't; Peter tells us this: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [2 Peter 3:8] Just as a day is as a thousand years, the 1,260 days when the two witnesses prophesy is also a non-literal time period, as the Venerable Bede understood and expressed so concisely and eloquently.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
What about 1290 days and 1335 days. What are they symbolic of?
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 03:23:09 AM
What about 1290 days and 1335 days. What are they symbolic of?
The various numbers can be arranged in sequence, from largest to smallest.
1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days
Here we have a picture of a diminishing period, the inter-advent age. The largest number spans the whole period. The next smallest is 1,290 days, which is the remaining time after the daily sacrifices end, and the abomination of desolation is set up. That must have happened about the time the temple was destroyed in the first century. John says that the antichrist spirit was already present in his time. The next smallest number, 1,260 days, is the time of the ministry of the two witnesses, and when the woman flees to the wilderness. This, I think, is symbolic of the remaining time after the canon was completed, and the book of Revelation was written. The scriptures were then completed, and the ministry of the two witnesses began. The smallest number, 3.5 days, is symbolic of a short span of time near the end of the age.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
But why 1335 days instead of 1340 days or 15173 days?
What is the significance of that number?
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 03:23:09 AM
What about 1290 days and 1335 days. What are they symbolic of?
Not symbolic of anything, they are a counting of lengths of individual days from the first day of the Day of the Lord as it begins in Rev 1:10-11. Preterism would have us believe the Millenium started almost two thousand years ago if you go by the way they reconstruct Bible prophecy, that means the Millenium (1000) is already past us & I guess presently we are supposed to be in some kind paradise or whatever the teachings of their post-millenium concept is, at least this is what a Catholic theologian told me one time many years ago.
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 03:40:11 AM
But why 1335 days instead of 1340 days or 15173 days?
What is the significance of that number?
The two numbers, 1,290 days and 1,335 days, are associated with
the time, times and a half, mentioned in the same chapter. [Dan 12:7] They help us to interpret the expression,
a time, times and a half, as they both fit the
pattern present in that expression.
1,335 days is three and a half years where one year has 12 months, and the rest 13, taking the months as 30 days.
1,290 days is three and a half years where one year has 13 months, and the rest 12, taking the months as 30 days.
Of course, no
natural three years and a half could possibly equal 1,335 days, or 1,290 days, so they must be
symbolic. The largest number represents the whole of the time that Christ waits, for his church to make herself ready for his return. The 1,290 days represents a shorter period, the remaining time after the abomination was set up, the antichrist spirit that John said was already in the church. It "shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." [Dan 7:25] This has happened throughout all the history of the church since the days of the apostles.
Below is another scholarly discussion on the meaning of the "time, times and a half" and related time periods in Revelation.
Patrick Fairbairn (1805-1874) was a notable Scottish Presbyterian pastor and scholar. He was divinity professor and principal of the Free Church College, Glasgow. The following is part of his discussion of the time periods of chapters 11, 12, and 13 of the Apocalypse, from Prophecy viewed in respect to its distinctive nature, its special function, and proper interpretation. [T. and T. Clark, Edinburgh. 1865]
[Begin quote]
It remains only to notice the indications of time contained in the portion of the Apocalypse we have been surveying. These appear to be simply three, though one of them is expressed in a threefold manner. It is the period of the church's tried and oppressed condition--denoted first in chap. xi. 2, as a period of forty-two months, during which "the holy city is trodden down of the Gentiles," during which also the beast was to continue in its power to blaspheme and injure (chap. xiii. 5); then as consisting of 1260 days (forty-two months multiplied by 30 days), during which the witnesses, representatives of a faithful, but oppressed and persecuted church, were to prophecy, chap. xi. 3, and the church was to abide in the wilderness, chap. xii. 6, having a place and food prepared for her by God; and finally, as a time, times and a half (corresponding to one year of twelve months, two of the same, and a half-year of six, or to forty-two months, or again to 1260 days), during which the church was to remain and be fed in the wilderness, chap. xii. 14. In Dan. vii. 25, where the expression first occurs, it is the time during which the saints of God were to be given into the hand of the power that was to speak great words against the Most High. These are manifestly but different modes of expressing one and the same period, as the state of things also to which they are applied is substantially identical, though variously represented. For the sojourn in the wilderness on the part of the faithful and proper spouse, the treading down of the holy city by those who belonged only to the court of the Gentiles, and the testifying for the truth of God by a faithful remnant clothed in sackcloth, and wrestling against error and corruption; these are obviously but different symbolical representations of the same abnormal and dislocated state of things. The other two periods mentioned are both very brief, as compared with the one just noticed. The shortest is that during which the bodies of the faithful witnesses are represented as lying dead, though unburied, three and a half days, chap. xi. 12; and the other is the five months during which the scorpion-locusts were to have power to torment the followers of the beast, chap. ix. 5.
Now, it is scarcely possible to avoid being struck even on the most cursory inspection of these periods, with a peculiarity that is common to them all--the broken and incomplete aspect they present. A certain whole was evidently in respect to each of them in the mind of the Divine author of the vision, as that toward which the parties spoken of were aiming, but were arrested midway in their career. This is particularly observable in the largest and by much the most important number, which in every form--whether as time, times and a half, or as the months and days that make up three and a half years--is most expressive of an unfinished course, a period somehow cut off in the middle. In like manner, the three and a half days of rejoicing over the unburied corpses of the slain witnesses, betokens the same violent and abrupt termination of the course indicated; in their ungodly triumph, the adversaries could not complete more than half of one of the briefest revolutions of time--one of the smallest cycles of the whole period allotted to the ascendency of evil. The incompleteness may appear less palpable in the five months specified for the plague of scorpion-locusts; but it will scarcely do so to those who have attended to the use made in Scripture of ten with reference to certain kinds of totality. The five is simply the broken ten.
So marked a peculiarity in the use of all these numbers is itself a strong presumption in favour of their symbolical import It seems to stamp their value as indications of relative, rather than of absolute periods of duration--relative both as regards each other, and also as regards an ideal whole. And it will appear to do so the more convincingly the more the periods are viewed in reference to the parties mentioned, which are the entire spiritual church throughout the world, on the one side, and the whole antichristian power on the other; for in regard to such vast bodies, and their wide-reaching interests, what could such periods avail in their natural sense! They could obviously afford but a mere fraction of the time necessary for the accomplishment of the results connected with them; nor could such results in actual history be shut up into any periods consisting of such exact and definite measures. Another, and very powerful consideration in favour of the same view is the place of these historical numbers--surrounded on every hand, not with the literal, but with the symbolical. The woman that is persecuted, and the dragon who persecutes; the wilderness into which she flees, and the floods sent after her; the beast that rages against the truth, and the two witnesses who testify for it to the death; the holy city that is trodden down, and the Egypt or Babylon by whom the treading is effected; all are symbolically used, and shall the periods of working be otherwise than symbolical? In that case there would be the violation of one of the plainest laws of symbolical writing, and confusion and arbitrariness, as a matter of necessity, would be brought into the interpretation. It is true, the number seven, as applied to the heads of the beast, and the number ten spoken of its ultimate forms of separate organization, have already been found by us to possess a kind of historical verification. But this, when more closely considered, manifests an evident striving after the symbolical. For, it is to make out the number seven, that St John diverges so strikingly here from the representation of Daniel, taking in the two earlier worldly kingdoms, which Daniel had omitted, and making of the divided state of Daniel's fourth empire a separate kingdom--the seventh. Nay, even this seventh he calls in a sense also the eighth--chap. xvii. 11--although seven still is taken as the proper number, because it alone has the proper symbolical import. The beast comes into view mainly as the rival of God, and seven being the common symbol of completeness for the Divine manifestations in the world (Isa. xxx. 26; Zech. iii. 9, iv. 2; Prov. ix. 1; Rev. i. 4, iii. 1, etc.)--originating, no doubt, in the sevenfold acts of God at creation--the worldly rival of God's power and glory in the world is, in token of its God-defying character, presented under the same number of manifestations. For a like reason the divided state of the last manifestation is distributed into the number ten. This also is often used as a symbol of completeness, on which account the ancients called it the perfect number, which comprehends all others in itself. But it commonly denotes completeness in respect to human interests and relations--as in the tithes or tenths (ten being regarded as comprising the entire property, from which one was selected to do homage to him who gave the whole), and the ten commandments, the sum of man's dutiful obedience. When, therefore, the divided state into which the modern Roman world fell, is represented under ten horns or kingdoms, it may well be doubted whether this should be pressed farther than as indicating, by a round number, the totality of the new states--the diversity in the unity--whether or not it might admit of being exactly and definitely applied to so many historical kingdoms. There is always some difficulty in making out an exact correspondence; and we should the less hold such a correspondence to be necessary, since even in the case of the tribes of Israel, when taken to represent the company of an elect people (chap. vii.), one tribe is totally omitted to preserve the symbolism of the historical twelve. This shows very strikingly the stress laid on the symbolical element, and strengthens the conclusion, that both in the seven and ten, as applied to the beast, and in the broken periods now under consideration, that element is primarily respected. Lastly, there is to be added on the same side the obviously loose setting of the periods; neither their starting-point, nor their termination is sharply defined. Viewed historically, indeed, one does not see how it could have been otherwise. The flight of the church into the wilderness, or the treading down of the holy city by the Gentiles, came on gradually; and appeared in different places at different times. It cannot be linked to definite historical epochs, as if at one or other of these it commenced for the first time, and for the whole church; and from the very nature of things, the termination must have a like diversity and gradation in its accomplishment. This draws a plain line of demarcation between the periods before us, and Daniel's seventy weeks, which are definitely bounded both in respect to their commencement and their close. The narrower field, and more outward character of the things they referred to, easily admitted of such a limitation; but here the world is the field, and the cause of vital Christianity throughout its borders the great interest at stake.
Giving all these considerations their due weight, we cannot avoid arriving at the conclusion, that the periods mentioned, in accordance with the general character of the book, are to be chiefly, if not exclusively, understood in a symbolical manner, as serving to indicate the times of relative length or brevity which the operations described were destined to occupy. If anything further is implied, it should only, we conceive, be looked for in some general correspondence, as to form, between the symbol and the reality, such as might be sufficient to guide thoughtful and inquiring minds to a more firm assurance of the realisation of the vision. But all precise and definite calculations respecting the periods, as they necessarily proceed upon a disregard of the symbolical character of the book, and upon a too external and political contemplation of the events to which it points, so they must inevitably be defeated of their aim in the future, as they have continually been in the past. The prophecy was not written to give men to know after such a fashion, the times and the seasons, which the Father has put in His own power.
[end quote]
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Doug,
You're a Preterist right? Maybe not a strict one, but close?
So this way of looking at end times prophecy has nothing to do with the Jews or the country of Israel? It is only about the church? And the time of Jacob's trouble somehow refers to the church? Why call it Jacob's trouble, then?
I guess this makes sense of the Left Behind Series. They make it all about the church, too. But, I'm not sure what the point is of putting a mature church through the great tribulation. [Left behind series doesn't, the church is gone by the time of the tribulation]. Plus,maybe this is heaven on earth to the Catholic church, but...I can't see where this is the millenium reign of Christ. He rules in the hearts and minds of his servants, but the rest of the world bows to Satan.
The numbers will never make sense to me under this interpretation. They only make sense to me if you are counting real days between one event and another.
But, thanks, Doug for the lengthy explanation.
Fairbairn's Prophecy is, among other things, an example of prophetic interpretation before the overbearing rise of dipsinsationalism. I've wandered around in it and looked up some things, but not thoroughly read it. It's to be commended, not as the easiest to read, but for the rewards in searching after Fairbairn's opening up scripture. The quote from Prophecy in Doug's reply #194 concerning the 3 1/2 years (seasons) days (solar, radiant) the months (lunar, feminine, reflective) etc., reliably unfolds the prophetic symbolism of these times, these numbers. Words, letters and numbers are all symbols. The things of creation are symbols the key to which is in Scripture. In God's communication there is a wealth of spiritual application as these symbols are revealed when we are faithfully keeping His Word. Nevertheless, for me, Fairbairn certainly doesn't dissolve the expectation that when all is said and done we will discover what is written will have proven to be numerically exact in fulfillment.
Just as we exist simultaneously in several dimensions, spirit, soul and body, I believe it is important to be open to Preterist, Historicist, Idealist (or, Symbolic,) and Futurist testimonies of what they view. Corrected, they all have contributions to make. As we enter the Age of Tabernacles in which the saints reign, they are going to be increasingly revealed in the power of the Spirit. After the future Millennium I expect a greater coming of us with the Lord in such glory that space and matter won't even appear for the glory of it. While I see Matthew 24 as fulfilled in 70 AD, I see the Book of Revelation as something else, even beyond strictly prophecy. For one thing, it is a kind of software that conditions the mind to better perceive in accordance with the Spirit of God. If you want to understand what is happening as the kingdom of God collides with and swallows up the kingdoms of men, repeatedly read the Book of the Revelation.
It is extremely unlikely you can study enough to begin to prophecy what is just about to take place as one here seemed to assume; but, you can through prayer, obedience and searching scripture seek the Lord's face, and so enter into an intimate walk with Him. Prophecy is not a result of Scripture knowledge. It is a result of the inworked character of Christ and the Holy Spirit pleased to settle down in you. God loves to reveal Himself. He delights to be seen and admired. He desires our worship. While revelation breaks through from the beginning, the last seen at the first, as we mature, continuing in His presence, we will undoubtedly prophecy.
Quote from: ReformerIt is extremely unlikely you can study enough to begin to prophecy what is just about to take place as one here seemed to assume
That would be me. :laugh2:
Maybe not, but I'm going to keep trying. Daniel says his book is sealed until the end times. So, if we are in the end times, it should start to make sense to us as we see it unfold in the world.
Quotebut, you can through prayer, obedience and searching scripture seek the Lord's face, and so enter into an intimate walk with Him. Prophecy is not a result of Scripture knowledge. It is a result of the inworked character of Christ and the Holy Spirit pleased to settle down in you. God loves to reveal Himself. He delights to be seen and admired. He desires our worship. While revelation breaks through from the beginning, the last seen at the first, as we mature, continuing in His presence, we will undoubtedly prophecy.
I agree with this, too. But, if he has written down a blueprint of end times events, I might as well try to read it and understand it, if possible. I'll just keep doing it, for now. It's not like I am receiving any personal revelation that contradicts what [I think] I'm reading. But, these books are hard to read. One has to keep working at them.
It seems we shouldn't equate modern Israeli's with ancient Israelites. Where is there something in Scripture stating "Jacob" means the modern day Jews? Jacob was called at least three names: Jacob, Israel, and Jeshurun. (I wish you'd help me remember his other name.) When I seek the meaning of "Jacob" I understand it is what Israel was called before the transfiguration brought by God when He wrestled with him all the night through. I consider it (Jacob) to be the man of God in his incarnated human (born of Adam) nature.
(I wanted to post earlier that Edom is spelled the same as Adam. Edom represent the nation according to the flesh as Adam is the man of flesh.)
But...how am I to accept the ubiquitous "Jacob's Trouble" to mean the about to be arriving, "Modern Jewry's Tribulation?" The verse isn't forthcoming.
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 07:58:39 AM
So this way of looking at end times prophecy has nothing to do with the Jews or the country of Israel? It is only about the church? And the time of Jacob's trouble somehow refers to the church? Why call it Jacob's trouble, then?
I guess this makes sense of the Left Behind Series. They make it all about the church, too. But, I'm not sure what the point is of putting a mature church through the great tribulation. [Left behind series doesn't, the church is gone by the time of the tribulation]. Plus,maybe this is heaven on earth to the Catholic church, but...I can't see where this is the millenium reign of Christ. He rules in the hearts and minds of his servants, but the rest of the world bows to Satan.
The numbers will never make sense to me under this interpretation. They only make sense to me if you are counting real days between one event and another.
But, thanks, Doug for the lengthy explanation.
Molly, I share your sentiments. You ask yourself: Did God really intend for us to come up with such complicated explanations for something in his word that should be simply understood? You wonder who dreams this stuff up.
It is simple to understand the church age as the Apostle Paul explained it, that for a time God's promises to Israel are put on hold until the "full complement" of Christians of the Christian church age is finished, Rom 11:25-30 makes this very clear that a hardening has come in part upon Israel until the full number of Gentiles have been saved, after this unspecified period of time the church is removed & Israel comes back into His favor again & the 70th week of Daniel begins at a time we cannot calculate from any numbers found in the Bible. Christ says only His father knows the length of those days, but for some reason that doesn't stop men from trying to do it anyway.
Quote from: ReformerWhen I seek the meaning of "Jacob" I understand it is what Israel was called before the transfiguration brought by God when He wrestled with him all the night through. I consider it (Jacob) to be the man of God in his incarnated human (born of Adam) nature.
Yes, exactly. He is Jacob before he becomes Israel. If you read Romans 9, 10, and 11, and try to get to the heart of what Paul is saying there, he is beating his breast about Jacob, his brothers the Jews, who are not yet the Israel of God because they have rejected the Messiah.
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
--Rom 9
But, we see by Romans 11, he is telling us, they have been blinded for a while so that the Gentiles can be brought into the family of God. After that, they will be grafted back into their own tree. And, so, all Israel will be saved. This is an end time prophecy Paul is making here. It is in the time of Jacob's trouble that they are grafted back in [in my opinion] because the Way is tribulation ['narrow']
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--Rom 11
Verses 26 and 27 of Rom 11 is a direct reference to the prophecy made in the Old Testament about the house of Judah in the end times and how they will be brought into the New Covenant. Paul tells us the house of Judah will remain Jacob until they are grafted back in at the end of the age [when the fulness of the Gentiles has been achieved].
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.
-- Isa 59
5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Rom 9:5
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
--Rom 11
It's all about covenant, covenant, covenant.
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 03:37:07 AM
1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days
Few thougths.
In the flood account years are 360 days. (there are even indications ancient calendars changed ~700BC)
OR
The duration of year varies depending on were they are placed on the 19 year cycle. Because the leap years aren't evenly spread over the 19 years the difference between 1260 and 1290 is just a leap month.
OR
When did the secular new year start?
Strictly speaking Tishri 1. But in a way Tishri 10 on the day if Atonement.
When did the religious year start?
Strictly speaking Nisan 1. But in a way Nissan 14/15 on Passover.
Also consider.
The jews mourned 30 days (1290-1260=30) days because Moses died.
A harsh winter could cause a leap mont be inserted. But not after a Sabbath or Jubilee year or a period of famine.
So while I totally agree on what you wrote about the synodic month, the observed cresent I think simple math will never work.
All Jewish customs must be applied.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Does something like this have any interest?
The Fall Feasts of Israel
The Feast of Trumpets will mark
day one of the 70th Week of Daniel;
Seven years later the Day of Atonement
will usher in the last day of this age.
Tishrei 1 <- - - - - - - - 7 years - - - - - - - - > Tishrei 10
Tishrei 1 <- - - - 86 moons + 10 days - - - > Tishrei 10
Tishrei 1 <- - 7 Biblical yrs. + 30 days - - > Tishrei 10
Tishrei 1 < - - - (7 x 360) + 30 days - - - - > Tishrei 10
Tishrei 1 <- - - - - 2520 + 30 days - - - - - > Tishrei 10
Tishrei 1 <- - The 70th Week + 30 days - > Tishrei 10
Tishrei 1 <- - - 1260 + 1260 + 30 days - - > Tishrei 10
Tishrei 1 <- - - - - 1260 + 1290 days - - - - > Tishrei 10
Tishrei 1 <- - - - - - - - 2550 days - - - - - - > Tishrei 10
http://endtimepilgrim.org/fallfeasts.htm
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 04:16:36 AM
Doug,
You're a Preterist right? Maybe not a strict one, but close?
No, not even close.
The arguments I gave about the three and a half years of prophecy not being a natural three and a half years discredit the preterist approach just as much as the futurist one, as both views assume these are a literal three and a half years. some preterists claim that the 42 months when the holy city is trampled by Gentiles [Rev. 11:2] means the years 66-70 A.D. but that does not work, because it was only at the end of that time, when the siege ended and the temple was destroyed, that the Romans gained entry to the city; before that they were camped on the hills round about. Their dates would only be plausible if the city was trampled by Gentiles for the whole period 66-70 A.D. and if that ceased to be the case at the end of the period. But the city was occupied by Gentiles for much of the past 19 centuries.
The 42 months, 1,260 days, and three and a half days mentioned in Revelation 11 are all periods that fit the pattern "a time, times and a half." Similarly the numbers given by Daniel fit the same pattern.
1,290 days = 13 × 30 + 2 × 12 × 30 + ½ × 12 × 30
1,335 days = 12 × 30 + 2 × 13 × 30 + ½ × 13 × 30Richard Bauckham wrote, referring to the time periods in Revelation:
Just as Daniel 12:7 answers the question, 'How long?' (12:6), so the angel in Revelation implicitly responds to the question 'How long?' which has been in the reader's mind since it was raised by the martyrs in 6:10. The answer is that there is now to be no more delay before the final period which will bring in the Kingdom, the Danielic 'time, times and half a time.' Probably, in chapter 10 we are at John's and his first readers' present: the final period is about to begin in the immediate future. Thus the content of the scroll is 'what must soon take place.' (1:1; 22:6). But the scroll will give no more information about the length of the final period than was already given by Daniel. John clearly uses the period of three and a half years indicated by Daniel as
a symbolic, not literal, expression for the final period.[The Climax of Prophecy: Studies on the Book of Revelation. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark. Continuum International Publishing Group, 1998. p. 262.]
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2012, 11:06:57 AM
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 03:37:07 AM
1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days
Few thougths.
In the flood account years are 360 days. (there are even indications ancient calendars changed ~700BC)
OR
The duration of year varies depending on were they are placed on the 19 year cycle. Because the leap years aren't evenly spread over the 19 years the difference between 1260 and 1290 is just a leap month.
OR
When did the secular new year start?
Strictly speaking Tishri 1. But in a way Tishri 10 on the day if Atonement.
When did the religious year start?
Strictly speaking Nisan 1. But in a way Nissan 14/15 on Passover.
Also consider.
The jews mourned 30 days (1290-1260=30) days because Moses died.
A harsh winter could cause a leap mont be inserted. But not after a Sabbath or Jubilee year or a period of famine.
So while I totally agree on what you wrote about the synodic month, the observed cresent I think simple math will never work.
All Jewish customs must be applied.
Another possibility is that the use of 30 day months in Genesis signifies a time period that is non-literal, but has some symbolic meaning. There are some anachronisms in the flood story, for example the distinction between clean and unclean animals taken on board the ark.
Here is a graphic illustrating the symbolic significance of the numbers that represent the
time, times and a half. (http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/D70/fourcups1.jpg)
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Doug,
OK, because you have stated your position is not that of Preterism, one thing I am really curious about: What is your viewpoint about the the "message" sent to the seven ecclesias at the opening of the Day of the Lord as it is written in Rev 1:10-11?
Do you have a definition for "Day of the Lord" & when it occurs? I understand the Preterist position on this, I just want to see if you differ from their viewpoint in any significant or meaningful way.
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 03:03:50 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2012, 11:06:57 AM
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 03:37:07 AM
1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days
Few thougths.
In the flood account years are 360 days. (there are even indications ancient calendars changed ~700BC)
OR
The duration of year varies depending on were they are placed on the 19 year cycle. Because the leap years aren't evenly spread over the 19 years the difference between 1260 and 1290 is just a leap month.
OR
When did the secular new year start?
Strictly speaking Tishri 1. But in a way Tishri 10 on the day if Atonement.
When did the religious year start?
Strictly speaking Nisan 1. But in a way Nissan 14/15 on Passover.
Also consider.
The jews mourned 30 days (1290-1260=30) days because Moses died.
A harsh winter could cause a leap mont be inserted. But not after a Sabbath or Jubilee year or a period of famine.
So while I totally agree on what you wrote about the synodic month, the observed cresent I think simple math will never work.
All Jewish customs must be applied.
Another possibility is that the use of 30 day months in Genesis signifies a time period that is non-literal, but has some symbolic meaning. There are some anachronisms in the flood story, for example the distinction between clean and unclean animals taken on board the ark.
Here is a graphic illustrating the symbolic significance of the numbers that represent the time, times and a half.
(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/D70/fourcups1.jpg)
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
If symbolic we still need to find what it's symblic of. It's a prophesy so it will happen in a literal or symbolic way. So if it's symbolic for the number of trees on mt. Olives we need to prove that. A prophesy can always in some way be verified.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2012, 04:30:16 PM
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 03:03:50 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2012, 11:06:57 AM
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 03:37:07 AM
1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days
Few thougths.
In the flood account years are 360 days. (there are even indications ancient calendars changed ~700BC)
OR
The duration of year varies depending on were they are placed on the 19 year cycle. Because the leap years aren't evenly spread over the 19 years the difference between 1260 and 1290 is just a leap month.
OR
When did the secular new year start?
Strictly speaking Tishri 1. But in a way Tishri 10 on the day if Atonement.
When did the religious year start?
Strictly speaking Nisan 1. But in a way Nissan 14/15 on Passover.
Also consider.
The jews mourned 30 days (1290-1260=30) days because Moses died.
A harsh winter could cause a leap mont be inserted. But not after a Sabbath or Jubilee year or a period of famine.
So while I totally agree on what you wrote about the synodic month, the observed cresent I think simple math will never work.
All Jewish customs must be applied.
Another possibility is that the use of 30 day months in Genesis signifies a time period that is non-literal, but has some symbolic meaning. There are some anachronisms in the flood story, for example the distinction between clean and unclean animals taken on board the ark.
Here is a graphic illustrating the symbolic significance of the numbers that represent the time, times and a half.
(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/D70/fourcups1.jpg)
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
If symbolic we still need to find what it's symblic of. It's a prophesy so it will happen in a literal or symbolic way. So if it's symbolic for the number of trees on mt. Olives we need to prove that. A prophesy can always in some way be verified.
Those who doubt whether the numbers are symbolic, are like the children who are not in the picture below.
(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/girltree.jpg)
They have not begun to get off the ground.
The girls in the tree are all at different levels. There are different levels in understanding prophecy too. Just as, in the river Ezekiel described, there are variations in depth. Some only venture ankle-deep. Others up to the knees. Others up to the loins. But there are also places he could not cross, waters for swimming. And in yet other places, the miry and marshy areas, the waters were given to salt, and those places were not healed.
All these are metaphors that IMO, can apply to our investigations of prophecy. Some are in those miry places, where there is not much flow in the river. This is a spiritual river, and yet, some have claimed it is a literal one; they are certainly among the people mired in literalism, stuck in salty places that are not healed.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: wwIf symbolic we still need to find what it's symblic of. It's a prophesy so it will happen in a literal or symbolic way. So if it's symbolic for the number of trees on mt. Olives we need to prove that. A prophesy can always in some way be verified.
Prove it? We have to prove our theories? I don't know how we're ever gonna do that.
:rolleye:
Official: Egypt tells Israel tanks needed in SinaiThe Associated Press
Tuesday, Aug. 28, 2012 | 12:09 a.m.
In the first direct contact with his Israeli counterpart since taking office, Egypt's new defense minister defended his country's increased military presence in the Sinai Peninsula, saying it is needed to fight terrorism and is temporary, Egyptian officials said Saturday.
Syria crisis: Fighting rages around Damascus – Tuesday 28 August 2012
• Leaflets dropped over Damascus warn of 'inevitable death'
Iran will never stop uranium enrichment: envoy(AFP)–6 hours ago
TEHRAN — Iran "will never stop" its controversial uranium enrichment, the country's envoy to the IAEA said on Tuesday, on the sidelines of a Non-Aligned Movement ministerial meeting in Tehran.
"Our enrichment activities will never stop and we are justified in carrying them out, and we will continue to do so under IAEA supervision," Ali Asghar Soltanieh told reporters.
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 05:28:20 PM
The girls in the tree are all at different levels. There are different levels in understanding prophecy too. Just as, in the river Ezekiel described, there are variations in depth. Some only venture ankle-deep. Others up to the knees. Others up to the loins. But there are also places he could not cross, waters for swimming. And in yet other places, the miry and marshy areas, the waters were given to salt, and those places were not healed.
All these are metaphors that IMO, can apply to our investigations of prophecy. Some are in those miry places, where there is not much flow in the river. This is a spiritual river, and yet, some have claimed it is a literal one; they are certainly among the people mired in literalism, stuck in salty places that are not healed.
Doug
So far as I can tell Preterism is the epitome of metaphors. This concept of men thinking they are smart enough to create explanations for matters that have already been explained by the Bible itself is blatant vanity. Followers of the concept of "literalism" have been under attack by the Catholic church ever since the pope assumed its' headship & declared it to be the one true church. The tides of time are however swinging strongly in the other direction, away from the teachings that the Catholic Church inherited the promises given to Israel, even many Catholics don't believe this anymore, thankfully.
***MOD NOTE - APPARENT SYSTEM ERROR - THIS POST IS ACTUALLY
reFORMer's, NOT DOUG'S
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 06:35:39 PM
The claims that the prophetic 42 months of Revelation 11:2, when the holy city is trampled by Gentiles, refers to a literal three and a half years, and that the 1,260 days of Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 are literal days, were promoted by the Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) in his commentary on Revelation, called In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij. He proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest apply to a yet future period of three and a half literal years, immediately prior to the second coming of Christ. Thus, he said, none of the book of Revelation applies to the church in the present age. He was followed by another Jesuit, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine. Some of their doctrines were picked up by J. N. Darby and Wm. Kelly and others, and incorporated into the theory known as dispensationalism. They all claimed the antichrist is a single individual human yet to appear.
About a hundred years after the Reformation the Roman Church studied, counciled, and tried to counteract the effect of the Reformation. Ribera (or, Ribiera) was a counter-reformation propagandist writing to take incendiary nature of the reformers use of Revelation's symbology off the Papacy. Gene Edwards has pointed out what they decided had been done wrong and must be corrected. There were too many naked statues in Churches, so they went around attaching fig leaves to all the statuary. The other thing was to little education for those in the orders. So they created seminaries. Hopefully you will remember the connection between fig leaves and Seminaries.
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 09:14:35 PM
The holy city in Revelation 11:2 is not the earthly Jerusalem, which John would not have referred to as holy; he was clearly thinking of the church, the heavenly city. The Jerusalem to which prophecy applies has rivers of living water flowing from it,
To say that the literal city is meant, and that it will be literally raised up tectonically "above the hills" leads to contradictions, and absurd conclusions.
The Jerusalem to which Isaiah's prophecies apply, after Jesus ascended to heaven, is the church, not the earthly city.
Doug
So, in Rev 11:2 is described a city whose outside perimeter is given to the Gentiles to trample under for 42 months. During this time two witnesses make their prophecies for 1260 days & then are killed inside that city (vs.8). Then after 3 1/2 days their bodies are raised up & they ascend into heaven. So, why are they being raised up inside a city that you claim is the heavenly city & upon their resurrection after laying in the streets of that city for 3 1/2 days they are transported to heaven (vs. 12). The scriptural context is clearly stating the opposite of your claims concerning where this city is located. If this were the heavenly city how is it the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend to a place where they already are? And all this mayhem is occurring inside a heavenly place? That's Preterism I guess, nothing is real.
Doug, when did the Millenium end? When did it start?
***MOD NOTE - APPARENT SYSTEM ERROR - THIS POST IS ACTUALLY
reFORMer's, NOT DOUG'S
Some quotes referring to the 2 witnesses. . .
Quote
The holy city in Revelation 11:2 is not the earthly Jerusalem, which John would not have referred to as holy; he was clearly thinking of the church, the heavenly city. The Jerusalem to which prophecy applies has rivers of living water flowing from it,
_________________________________________
So, in Rev 11:2 is described a city whose outside perimeter is given to the Gentiles to trample under for 42 months. During this time two witnesses make their prophecies for 1260 days & then
_________________________________________
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
_________________________________________
God is the glory of the holy city, not of Sodom, or of Egypt, or of the great city of vs. 8 where the dead bodies of the two witnesses lie unburied. I suggest that these two witnesses are symbolic of the Word of God, and the Spirit, or Comforter, which are two things Jesus said will "testify" of him.
_________________________________________
Again, the city where the witnesses lie unburied for three days and a half is not the holy city, which represents salvation, but the world, mystical Babylon. They witness, even when dead. Then they come to life. This could have something to do with a fresh, non-literal interpretation, that gives them new meaning, and inspires confidence in God's people.
_________________________________________
So often Moses and Elijah are presumed to be the 2 witnesses. As a youngster I wondered why we weren't thought to have enough billions of people, we had to re-run a couple of old ones. I tend to think it is some completely new men of God whose ministries have areas in accordance with others, like the two I'm about to mention.
Think though about these popular two. Moses, for instance, had another who was raised up under him and was his replacement. Moses brought the people out; but, Joshua brought the people in. Elijah had a protege that obtained a double of the anointing on Elijah. Elysha had twice as many miracles recorded as happening in his ministry. Elysha's greatness is also demonstrated by his ability to delegate authority. Elijah basically had to do everything himself. Elysha involved others in the work of the Holy Spirit with him.
Elijah and Moses were for their day. Perhaps for the day of the transition into the Millennium there will be many even planet wide men of God to make the nations believe and be obedient to the Lord. Possibly they will reflect the ministries of Joshua and Elysha rather than their precursors.
All I can say further to you Doug is that you are a willing & capable debater. I'm an engineer, and if I were to follow your blueprint to understanding 1/3 of the Bible & juxtapose the same methodology of reasoning about words & contexts in following blueprints for construction of a building, there is no doubt in my mind such a building could not be constructed. And this is the problem with Preterism, it renders 1/3 of the Bible meaningless as a guide to the future of Israel & to some extent even as a guide for those who compose the Body of Christ.
Notes from book of Daniel
The Maskilim
found four times in dan 11 and 12
their role is decisive in the end times
Maskilim is a Hebrew word that literally means "enlightened ones" (Hebrew plural of Maskil). "Strong's Concordance" shows:
7919 sakal saw-kal' a primitive root; to be (causatively, make or act) circumspect and hence, intelligent:–consider, expert, instruct, prosper, (deal) prudent(-ly), (give) skill(-ful), have good success, teach, (have, make to) understand(-ing), wisdom, (be, behave self, consider, make) wise(- ly), guide wittingly.
Our use of the word stems from Daniel's use of it in these passages (Dan 11:33; 12:3, 10). In these verses it is translated "They that understand," "They that be wise," etc.
Mat 24:15 Jesus commands us to read chapter 11 of daniel
Maskilim are prophetic witnesses of the gospel to Jewish people in the end times
they are sovereignly ordained watchmen on the walls
Isa 62
They see what's on the horizon that the others don't see and announce it
maskilim have a clear role in their watchman function
They give man and God no rest
Disciples ask, What are the signs of the end of the age and your return?
Jesus quotes Daniel 11 and tells them to go read and understand
Israel's final suffering and salvation gets more airtime in the major and minor prophets than any other prophecy
dan 11:21-22 the emergence of the antichrist. a sinistre, vile, despicable man. He comes to his end in verses 44, 45, 46
This is about the generation of Jesus' return.
This has not been fulfilled.
Jesus tells us all the signs of the end of the age in Mat 24, and he quotes Dan 11 and commands us to go read it
the rage against the holy covenant is mentioned four times in dan 11 and we are told this is in the final generation before Jesus returns. This man who emerges will be moved with rage against the holy covenant. He sets up the abomination that causes desolation and goes out to destroy and annihilate many.
Dan 12 we are told these things will end when the power of the holy people is completely shattered.
Jesus--when you see Dan 11:31 then there will be a time of great trouble
Dan 12:11-- from the time the abomination of desolation is set up there will be 1290 days until it ends. We are told here this is the end of the age.
The abomination of desolation continues until the end of the age--this is the last 3.5 years. This tribulation ends with the salvation of Israel and the resurrection of the dead in dan 12:1,2
Dan 11 tells us the signs that lead up to the abomination. The same man that emerges in verse 21 is the man who sets up the abomination in verse 31.
This is the desolation of Jerusalem at the hand of foreign armies. Jesus himself indicated this invasion to be the primary sign of his return--Let the reader understand
this includes the expulsion of the Jewish people from Jerusalem and Judea
This is the time of the end
When Jerusalem is desolate you can start counting down the days to the end
all the nations of the earth will gather against it
Joel 3--I will gather all the nations and bring them down to Judea
Nations descending upon Judea
the land is being divided, the Jewish people scattered, and children sold into slavery
Rev 16
water of Euphrates is dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the east
this is the sixth judgment
demonic spirits performing signs go abroad to the kings of the earth to assemble them at the place called Armageddon. from here they will march into Jerusalem. From Iraq, Iran, Syria to the plain of Meggido where they will gather to march into Jerusalem
Zech 12
all nations gathering against the city of Jerusalem
Dan 12
this age ends with the desolation of Jerusalem
Rage against the holy covenant
the desolation of Jerusalem in Dan 11:21 is the result of Gentile rage against the covenant that God made with Abraham.
But the people who know their God will stand firm against the antichrist.
The central role of the maskilim is
mentioned four times in Daniel 11 and 12
a Hebrew word that refers to the wise in the land and out of the land
Most will be out of the land
They will be led by two witnesses
The world literally means: the enlightened ones
One who has understanding, wisdom, one who is able to guide, the anointed discerning ones who instruct many. A prophetic company of anointed teachers.
Maskilim mentioned in
Dan 11:33, 35
Dan 12:3, and Dan 12:10
The antichrist will seduce with flatteries those who do violence against the land
The maskilim among the people will make many understand. They are instructing the masses before and after the abomination is set up and minister to people about what is taking place.
For some days they will stumble by sword and by flame and by captivity and by plunder. The final prophetic witnesses before the return of Jesus is in context of unprecedented violence and falling in martyrdom.
Some of the maskilim shall stumble so that they may be refined, purified, and made white until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed consummation. This is referred to in Rev 6: how long until you avenge our blood?
Jesus will not come until the fulness of the martyrs have come in --Rev 6. Martyrdom is a central reality in the time before Jesus return. The church will refuse to stand idle in the time of Jacob's trouble. They will stand against the antichrist.
After the resurrection, the maskilim shall shine like the brightness of the sky above, and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
The words of Daniel are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly, none of the wicked will understand, but the maskilim will understand.
Maskilim is a company of believers who are anointed at this end time hour to primarily minister to Israel.
Isa 28 speaks of those with a stammering tongue and a foreign accent declaring rest to those under the scourge in Jerusalem. A Gentile people speaking rest to a suffering Jewish people. To be a witness to the Gentiles and the Jews during Jacob's trouble will be a last day's martyr testimony which will say the word of God says this to the nations, the witness will be so powerful that to deny it would be to embrace delusion. If people do not believe it, it will be because of the rage in their heart to resist the prophetic word which is being fullfilled right before their very eyes.
The church has a function at the end of the age in context to the desolation of Jerusalem and rage against the holy covenant, and at this time the Maskilim will instruct many and turn many to righteousness.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
--Rom 11
Isaiah 49:16 See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.
Isaiah 60:18 No longer will violence be heard in your land, nor ruin or destruction within your borders, but you will call your walls Salvation and your gates Praise.
Jeremiah 33:9 Then this city will bring me renown, joy, praise and honor before all nations on earth that hear of all the good things I do for it; and they will be in awe and will tremble at the abundant prosperity and peace I provide for it.'
Zephaniah 3:19 At that time I will deal with all who oppressed you; I will rescue the lame and gather those who have been scattered. I will give them praise and honor in every land where they were put to shame.
Quote from: Molly on August 28, 2012, 06:21:11 PM
Quote from: wwIf symbolic we still need to find what it's symblic of. It's a prophesy so it will happen in a literal or symbolic way. So if it's symbolic for the number of trees on mt. Olives we need to prove that. A prophesy can always in some way be verified.
Prove it? We have to prove our theories? I don't know how we're ever gonna do that.
That's not my problem :P
What I see in this thread is people unable to solve a puzzle. Instead of admitting the puzzle is to hard for them they resort to excuses like "it's symbolic".
For some it may give a certain peace having 'solved' the puzzle. For me the solution is equal to claiming it's about the next elections. Based on nothing. Useless.
While I don't reject symbolic meanings, on the contrary there are many in the Bible, they can only be used if they are backed up by some proof, a pattern, etc.
Theories are good. They are a starting point for proof. Not an end point.
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 05:28:20 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2012, 04:30:16 PM
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 03:03:50 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2012, 11:06:57 AM
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 03:37:07 AM
1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
3.5 days
Few thougths.
In the flood account years are 360 days. (there are even indications ancient calendars changed ~700BC)
OR
The duration of year varies depending on were they are placed on the 19 year cycle. Because the leap years aren't evenly spread over the 19 years the difference between 1260 and 1290 is just a leap month.
OR
When did the secular new year start?
Strictly speaking Tishri 1. But in a way Tishri 10 on the day if Atonement.
When did the religious year start?
Strictly speaking Nisan 1. But in a way Nissan 14/15 on Passover.
Also consider.
The jews mourned 30 days (1290-1260=30) days because Moses died.
A harsh winter could cause a leap mont be inserted. But not after a Sabbath or Jubilee year or a period of famine.
So while I totally agree on what you wrote about the synodic month, the observed cresent I think simple math will never work.
All Jewish customs must be applied.
Another possibility is that the use of 30 day months in Genesis signifies a time period that is non-literal, but has some symbolic meaning. There are some anachronisms in the flood story, for example the distinction between clean and unclean animals taken on board the ark.
Here is a graphic illustrating the symbolic significance of the numbers that represent the time, times and a half.
(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/D70/fourcups1.jpg)
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
If symbolic we still need to find what it's symblic of. It's a prophesy so it will happen in a literal or symbolic way. So if it's symbolic for the number of trees on mt. Olives we need to prove that. A prophesy can always in some way be verified.
Those who doubt whether the numbers are symbolic, are like the children who are not in the picture below.
(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/girltree.jpg)
They have not begun to get off the ground.
The girls in the tree are all at different levels. There are different levels in understanding prophecy too. Just as, in the river Ezekiel described, there are variations in depth. Some only venture ankle-deep. Others up to the knees. Others up to the loins. But there are also places he could not cross, waters for swimming. And in yet other places, the miry and marshy areas, the waters were given to salt, and those places were not healed.
All these are metaphors that IMO, can apply to our investigations of prophecy. Some are in those miry places, where there is not much flow in the river. This is a spiritual river, and yet, some have claimed it is a literal one; they are certainly among the people mired in literalism, stuck in salty places that are not healed.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Children who see the above as an answer to this thread are not in the tree. They are way below the roots of the tree. Unknowing. Blinded. Easily led of track by false docrtrines.
When Molly started this thread before the forum crash she stated she her aim was outlines and not drilling down deep into each verse.
That was a red flag for me. I stayed out of this thread. Unfortunately I couldn't resist participating.
This, imo, is exactly why Christiananity has become a zillion denomination mess.
People didn't have the guts to admit they don't know. So they come up with unproven theories.
Again nothing wrong with theories, but passing them of as proof I strongly reject. I guess I'm the girl way up in the tree. I at least know I don't know. But I would rather be the girl with her feet on the ground.
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 06:35:39 PM
So far as I can tell Preterism is the epitome of metaphors. This concept of men thinking they are smart enough to create explanations for matters that have already been explained by the Bible itself is blatant vanity.
An even more portentous vanity, IMO, is the claim by some that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week in Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. What a monstrous idea that is! There can be no gap, as claimed by the dispensationalists, as time has no gaps!
Time has no gaps. But clocks can be stopped. I think we see that in the OT wher at places mentioned years don't add up.
I'm
not saying it's the same for the topic of this thread. I just keep the possibility open.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 29, 2012, 07:24:31 AM
Quote from: Doug on August 28, 2012, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: Paul L on August 28, 2012, 06:35:39 PM
So far as I can tell Preterism is the epitome of metaphors. This concept of men thinking they are smart enough to create explanations for matters that have already been explained by the Bible itself is blatant vanity.
An even more portentous vanity, IMO, is the claim by some that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week in Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. What a monstrous idea that is! There can be no gap, as claimed by the dispensationalists, as time has no gaps!
Time has no gaps. But clocks can be stopped. I think we see that in the OT wher at places mentioned years don't add up.
I'm not saying it's the same for the topic of this thread. I just keep the possibility open.
Clocks made by men can be stopped, but the 70th weeks prophecy is not a clock made by men. God made the heavens, and the motions of planets, the sun and moon, the period of the earth's rotation, are things by which we measure time. There are many periodic events, independent of each other, that we can use. We can be confident that time has no gaps. Men's theories have gaps. Dispensationalism asserts that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week, but that is a
theory. It is not rock solid. It is just clouds and mists, mere
opinion.
There is no scripture that says God "stopped the clock" in the 70 weeks. And the prophet Amos said,
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." [Amos 3:7]
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: Doug on August 29, 2012, 01:28:06 PM
Clocks made by men can be stopped, but the 70th weeks prophecy is not a clock made by men.
Doug
And clocks made by God in heaven can be stopped as well. If men are capable of creating & starting & stopping clocks, there is little doubt in my mind God has the same capability & that is exactly what he did at the end of the 69th week when he told Daniel to close the books until a future prophet unknown to Daniel would reopen them on the Day of the Lord (Rev 1-10-11), when John's letter to the 7 endtime ecclesias are read inside their synagogues on the opening day of the 70th week.
'I beleive" that 1945 the establishement of the nation of Israel was a 'sign in the earth" I beleive little Israel surrounded by enemy nations
is a portent of gog's surroundment[4 quarters of earth] of the restored spiritual camp city. the wicked encompass the righteous..and therefore justice does not
go forth.. the signs in the heavens..signify spiritual Isreal/Christ..birth of the manchild snatched up to the throne....
the saints werte overcome and trampled...a house divided can not stand..thus the many denominations of Christianity..the devouring of one another
the parting of His garments to the 4 quarters of heaven
there is a seamless gaarment of one...an inner garment...an inner man renewed day by6 day..though the outward man perish
it renders 1/3 of the Bible meaningless as a guide to the future of Israel & to some extent even as a guide for those who compose the Body of Christ.
This is a logical conclusion.
I will make a bold statement. This statement is not meant to offend any body.
I do not have any poster in mind when I make this statement.
IMO
The bible is meaningless as a guide to the future
of Israel, Spain, New Zealand and the USA.
To Love one another is our final command and the bible can be used,
to prove that to fellow believers.
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
"The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more. "[c]
The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things,
but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,
"Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones"
by John A.L. Riley, 1853-1945
1. Ye watchers and ye holy ones,
Bright seraphs, cherubim, and thrones,
Raise the glad strain, Alleluia!
Cry out, dominions, princedoms, powers,
Virtues, archangels, angels' choirs,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
2. O higher than the cherubim,
More glorious than the seraphim,
Lead their praises, Alleluia!
Thou Bearer of the eternal Word,
Most gracious, magnify the Lord,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
3.Respond, ye souls in endless rest,
Ye patriarchs and prophets blest,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Ye holy Twelve, ye martyrs strong,
All saints triumphant, raise the song,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
4. O friend, in gladness let us sing,
Supernal anthems echoing,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
To God the Father, God the Son,
And God the Spirit, Three in One,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
The Lutheran Hymnal
Hymn #475
Text: Ps. 148
Author: John A.L. Riley, 1906
Tune: "Lasst uns erfreuen"
1st Published in: Geistliche Kirchengesaeng
Town: Cologne, 1623
MUSIC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6SHaa2hE7c
Quote from: dajomaco on August 29, 2012, 08:00:32 PM
The bible is meaningless as a guide to the future
of Israel, Spain, New Zealand and the USA.
With all due respect, I realize you feel Christians should not contend with one another over holy writ, but that is not in accord with what Apostle Paul commanded us to do, recall he commanded us the search the scriptures daily to see whether anything be true. It is when we brush aside Paul's advice that the Body of Christ runs into problems with polluting doctrines & teachings that result in weird oddball groups to rise up who think that by committing suicide, at the time appointed by their leader, that they will ascend to the surface of the Hale-Bob comet & take a ride around the sun & end up at Heaven's Gate at the end of the ride (when was that? Mid 90's as I recall).
It is never wrong to press another member of the Body of Christ about a teaching, theory, etc. But I could agree with you that there is a point of "backing off", but only after a reasonable time of honest debate, don't forget the Apostles had many of those among themselves, it even caused Paul & Barnabas to part company over the intenseness of their differences.
God indeed is love, but he also gave us a brain for use as a tool to reason with. Everyday I look at blueprints by which I must discern if a building can be engineered & constructed in the manner proposed by the architect, I almost always find problems which if not corrected in the final design, would result in bodily harm or even death to occupants. Throughout the period of the European Dark Ages the Body of Christ was in death throes because so many allowed a dictator in Rome guide their lifestyles & culture, then they learned to read, now the Body can't be dictated to anymore, but now there are those complaining about that.
Quote from: dajoThe bible is meaningless as a guide to the future
of Israel, Spain, New Zealand and the USA.
To Love one another is our final command and the bible can be used,
to prove that to fellow believers.
These are some of the great Christian Nations.
I would say they are the inheritors of the birthright passed down from Abraham through Ephraim [house of Israel] which we see here as Jacob prophesies over his grandsons:
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and
his seed shall become a multitude of nations.--Gen 48:19
"HIS SEED"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.--Gal 3:16
SHALL BECOME
"A MULTITUDE"H4393
מלו מלוא מלא
melô' melô' melô
mel-o', mel-o', mel-o'
From H4390; fulness (literally or figuratively): - X all along, X all that is (there-) in, fill, (X that whereof . . . was) full,
fulness, [hand-] full, multitude.
"OF NATIONS"H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: -
Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
a multitude of nations= the fulness of the Gentiles
It is this birthright that Paul is revealing to the Gentiles as a mystery:
Even the mystery which has been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory--Col 1:26-27
And it is this prophesy over Ephraim [house of Israel] that Paul refers to in Romans 11 when he tells us that the Jews [house of Judah] will receive salvation
after THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES be brought into the New Covenant.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.--Rom 11:25
The book of Daniel. and Jesus himself, tells us that the invasion of Jerusalem by foreign armies will kick off the last three and a half years before the return of Christ.
It is during this time that "the enlightened ones" of the church [the Maskilim] will minister to and evangelize the Jews [house of Judah] who are to be brought into the New Covenant before the Age ends [and after the fulness of the Gentiles has been achieved]--so that God can hold both sticks in one hand, another OT prophesy.
So there is still a lot going on with the church in the end times.
I've been thinking quite a bit over this christian nation thing. There has never been a nation that is governed by the head, Christ. There have been nations that set out to serve and honor God, but yet had human headship. Just like the body of Christ suffers under human headship, as there can only be one head. Remember there wasn't supposed to be a king in Israel, and they got Saul. Or Abimelech, the thorn bush, kind of like a crown of thorns on the head.
I don't think there has ever been a "christian nation".
Actually there was one "nation". "And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;"
Quote from: RHMActually there was one "nation". ..
One nation under God with Liberty and Justice for all?
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2012, 07:27:29 AM
Quote from: dajoThe bible is meaningless as a guide to the future
of Israel, Spain, New Zealand and the USA.
To Love one another is our final command and the bible can be used,
to prove that to fellow believers.
These are some of the great Christian Nations.
I would say they are the inheritors of the birthright passed down from Abraham through Ephraim [house of Israel] which we see here as Jacob prophesies over his grandsons:
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
--Gen 48:19
The general beliefs that you outline here seem a lot like the beliefs of the Christian Identity movement. They believe that whites of European descent can be traced back to the "Lost Tribes of Israel." They say that Jesus Christ will return to the Earth following a period of "tribulation." They view the apocalypse as a racial battle.
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2012, 07:27:29 AM
The book of Daniel. and Jesus himself, tells us that the invasion of Jerusalem by foreign armies will kick off the last three and a half years before the return of Christ.
It is during this time that "the enlightened ones" of the church [the Maskilim] will minister to and evangelize the Jews [house of Judah] who are to be brought into the New Covenant before the Age ends [and after the fulness of the Gentiles has been achieved]--so that God can hold both sticks in one hand, another OT prophesy.
So there is still a lot going on with the church in the end times.
The church, in Rev. 12, is represented by the woman clothed with the sun, who is seen in heaven. Paul said believers "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" which explains why she is in heaven.
Ephesians 2:4-7
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
The believer is in heaven, as Christ's Spirit is given to them; they are called temples of God.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
See also 1 Cor. 6:19. Those who do not have the Spirit are not of Christ. This is what makes one a "Christian." Not race. Not whether one is white, of Caucasian descent, lives in the USA, or New Zealand, or Spain, or the UK, or Germany, or Russia.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
In Rev. 12:6, the woman flees to the wilderness.
Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
The 1,260 days are not literal days or years, but symbolic, and represent the whole of the remaining time of the church since the Apocalypse was written. In the wilderness there is a place for her that has been prepared by God. In John 14:2, Jesus said, "I go and prepare a place for you." I suggest the "place" of the woman, and the "place" Jesus is preparing for each of us, are the same.
In the wilderness the woman is nourished. Her nourishment is spiritual, and this refers to teachings from the word of God, corresponding to the manna that the Israelites received in the wilderness. Jesus said, "I am the living bread which came down from heaven." [John 6:41, 51]
The wilderness is church's spiritual environment, not a literal wilderness. The meaning of the wilderness of Rev. 12:6 becomes clear, when the significance of the great city in Rev. 11:8 is understood. The concept of the wilderness in Rev. 12:6, 14 contrasts with the great city called Sodom and Egypt, which were both places from which the people of God escaped. Lot and his daughters came out of Sodom, into a wilderness. And the people of Israel came out of Egypt, into a wilderness. The saints are separate from the worldly system in a spiritual sense. The woman fleeing to the wilderness does not mean that the church goes to a literal desert, but the meaning is spiritual.
Paul said the saints have been delivered from the
power of darkness, and are
translated into Christ's kingdom. No change in location is involved.
Colossians 1:12-14
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Peter said the saints have escaped the corruption that is in the world. [2 Pet. 1:4] James said, "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." [Ja. 1:27]
The wilderness in Rev. 12:6 represents the spiritual place where believers come when they depart from the great city, mystical Babylon, and enter into the light of the gospel and Christ's kingdom. When Jesus prayed for his church he said,
John 17:14-16
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because
they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
In Rev. 12:13, after the war in heaven, where Satan is cast to the earth, he persecutes the woman.
The nations you refer to as "great Christian Nations" are not the "wilderness" where those who are truly Christians flee. How can great nations flee to the wilderness? Neither is the "wilderness" the USA, or other places that were colonized by Western European countries. It is a spiritual state of
separation from the world, which John identifies with Babylon, and Egypt, and Sodom.
Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
John said,
1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
James said,
James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Doug
Creation Concept
Quote from: DougThe general beliefs that you outline here seem a lot like the beliefs of the Christian Identity movement. They believe that whites of European descent can be traced back to the "Lost Tribes of Israel."
The beauty of the lost tribes is that they were lost. We can play games around who they might be today, but lost is lost. I believe they are the Christians, his sheep, of any race. If we are hid in Christ, who is anyone to say who we are?
Abraham is told, all the nations of the earth shall be blessed through you.
QuoteThe believer is in heaven, as Christ's Spirit is given to them; they are called temples of God.
Maybe so but an interesting thing happens at the end of the age. The New Jerusalem comes down to earth in fulfillment of the New Covenant.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
--Rev 21
on earth as it is in heaven
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2012, 02:54:39 PM
Quote from: RHMActually there was one "nation". ..
One nation under God with Liberty and Justice for all?
The Christian Identity movement in America developed out of an earlier nineteenth century doctrine known as British Israelism. The following is from an essay about the development of this kind of thinking, by
Michael Barkun:
In retrospect, we can see in British-Israelism a bizarre religious manifestation of British imperial aspirations, for if the British were indeed descendants of the Israelites, then they were God's chosen people, ruling not simply by power but by divine plan. Yet Anglo-Israelism never developed as a separate religious denomination. Its members remained within their original churches, often the Church of England. By the 1870s and 1880s, the movement had begun to take organized form and branches spread to present and former outposts of the empire, notably to Canada and the United States. Although eventually an umbrella organization formed — the British-Israel World Federation — it was in truth a movement without a head, and as it spread, its doctrines began to shift in some of the distant venues. It was these doctrinal mutations that set the stage for Christian Identity.
Once British-Israelism began to grow outside Great Britain itself, two major doctrinal deviations occurred that had major implications for the subsequent development of Christian Identity. One concerned the place of Britain; the other concerned the place of the Jewish people. As far as the significance of Britain was concerned, British-Israel writers had deduced it from a variety of highly questionable sources, including spurious etymologies (e.g., deriving "Saxons" from "Isaac's sons"), variant readings of biblical passages, and interpretations of historical and archaeological evidence. American Anglo-Israelites were not necessarily disposed to criticize this kind of argumentation on methodological grounds, but they were anxious to place America at the center of God's plan, for American British-Israelites, like many other Americans in the late 19th century, bought into concepts of Manifest Destiny. There was also a well-entrenched belief, harking back to the Puritans, that America was "the new Israel." Why, then, should it not be linked to Israel by biology as well?
Beyond considerations of America's special place in the world, when British-Israelism crossed the Atlantic, it became enmeshed in radical American political currents. This became evident in the early 1920s, when a major Anglo-Israelite in Oregon turned out to be a leader in the Ku Klux Klan at a time the Klan was a major power on the West Coast. The high tide of British-Israelism in America was reached in the next decade, for the Great Depression was a boon to all manner of fringe groups that would otherwise not have gotten a hearing. British-Israelism in America during the 1930s took the form of the Anglo-Saxon Federation of America, led by a tireless Massachusetts lawyer, Howard Rand, who crisscrossed the country organizing branches. Rand was joined in the Federation's leadership by William J. Cameron, an executive of the Ford Motor Co. Cameron was not only Henry Ford's public relations man; he had also edited Ford's weekly newspaper, the Dearborn Independent. In the early 1920s, the Independent had published an infamous set of articles, "The International Jew," which popularized the Czarist forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, probably the most influential anti-Semitic tract of the 20th century. Cameron almost certainly wrote many of these articles himself. Although Ford closed the Independent in 1927, Cameron's presence in the Anglo-Saxon Federation provided a conduit for anti-Semitism in the inner circle of American British-Israelism. Most of the nations of Europe, and north Africa, and the Middle East, were part of the Roman Empire, represented by the fourth beast in Dan. 7. It would certainly have included England. And in Rev. 13, John includes all four beasts in his composite beast, and says of this beast:
Revelation 13:6-9
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
In ch. 14 there is a powerful warning from an angel against those who worship the beast.
Revelation 14:8-11
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Doug
Creation Concept
The Roman Empire is long gone, Doug.
It was conquered by the Ottoman Empire.
The Ottoman Empire was one of the longest lasting empires in history; such that the Ottoman State, its politics, conflicts, and cultural heritage in a vast geography provide one of the longest continuous narratives. During the 16th and 17th centuries, in particular at the height of its power under the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent, the empire was one of the most powerful states in the world – a multinational, multilingual empire that stretched from the southern borders of the Holy Roman Empire to the outskirts of Vienna, Royal Hungary (modern Slovakia) and the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in the north to Yemen and Eritrea in the south; from Algeria in the west to Azerbaijan in the east;[8] controlling much of southeast Europe, Western Asia and North Africa.[9] At the beginning of the 17th century the empire contained 32 provinces and numerous vassal states, some of which were later absorbed into the empire, while others were granted various types of autonomy during the course of centuries.[dn 4]
--Wikipedia
The Ottoman Empire received a fatal wound after World War I [the head that was wounded and comes alive again] and today is looking to rise again as nation after nation falls to the Muslim brotherhood and the Sunni Muslims.
It's all about the Middle East, Doug. Keep your eye on ground zero, the city of Jerusalem.
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2012, 04:37:12 PM
The Roman Empire is long gone, Doug.
It was conquered by the Ottoman Empire.
The Ottoman Empire was one of the longest lasting empires in history; such that the Ottoman State, its politics, conflicts, and cultural heritage in a vast geography provide one of the longest continuous narratives. During the 16th and 17th centuries, in particular at the height of its power under the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent, the empire was one of the most powerful states in the world – a multinational, multilingual empire that stretched from the southern borders of the Holy Roman Empire to the outskirts of Vienna, Royal Hungary (modern Slovakia) and the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in the north to Yemen and Eritrea in the south; from Algeria in the west to Azerbaijan in the east;[8] controlling much of southeast Europe, Western Asia and North Africa.[9] At the beginning of the 17th century the empire contained 32 provinces and numerous vassal states, some of which were later absorbed into the empire, while others were granted various types of autonomy during the course of centuries.[dn 4]
--Wikipedia
The Ottoman Empire received a fatal wound after World War I [the head that was wounded and comes alive again] and today is looking to rise again as nation after nation falls to the Muslim brotherhood and the Sunni Muslims.
It's all about the Middle East, Doug. Keep your eye on ground zero, the city of Jerusalem.
The beast has seven heads. What are they? The nations of NW Europe were never conquered by the Muslims. The whole world does not worship Islam, or any particular Muslim nation, and it is not likely it ever will. But, Western Civilization has spread its influence around the whole world, in economics, religion, philosophy, politics, science, technology etc.
And, the formation of the Jewish state in 1948 healed a "deadly wound" of one of the heads of the beast, the Roman province of Judea, that was inflicted in 70 AD.
Doug
Creation Concept (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: Doug
The beast has seven heads. What are they?
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
--Rev 17
At the end of the war, the Allies occupied İstanbul and the Ottoman government collapsed. The Treaty of Sèvres, a plan designed by the Allies to dismember the remaining Ottoman territories, was signed on August 10, 1920, though never ratified by the Sultan.
The Lausanne Treaty formally acknowledged the new League of Nations mandates in the Middle East, the cession of their territories on the Arabian Peninsula, and British sovereignty over Cyprus. The League of Nations granted Class A mandates for the French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon and British Mandate of Mesopotamia and Palestine, the later comprising two autonomous regions: Mandate Palestine and Transjordan). Parts of the Ottoman Empire on the Arabian Peninsula became part of what is today Saudi Arabia and Yemen. The dissolution of the Ottoman Empire became a pivotal milestone in the creation of the modern Middle East, the result of which bore witness to the creation of new conflicts and hostilities in the region.--Wikipedia10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition
--Rev 17
Five are fallen--Egyptian, Assyria, Babylonian, Persian, Greece
One is, the sixth--Roman
The other is not yet come, the seventh--Ottoman
This one is the beast that was [the seventh], and is not, and is the eighth--Ottoman
'Revival of the Ottoman Empire and Bible Prophecy'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGi3h50JLdE
Quote from: DougAnd, the formation of the Jewish state in 1948 healed a "deadly wound" of one of the heads of the beast, the Roman province of Judea, that was inflicted in 70 AD.
Judea was never an empire, so it does not fit into the beast prophecy of Rev 17 or Daniel, either.
Judea [house of Judah] was then and is now about the size of New Jersey.
and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
--Rev 17
The ones whose names are written in the book of life will not worship the beast. They worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Holy One of Israel.
Everyone else will be amazed [wonder] when the beast kingdom that was dealt the mortal head wound comes back to life. Many will be worshipping the beast. What or who will they be worshipping? Bar codes on groceries? The Pope? The head of a secular one world government?
Or, Satan, himself?
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. Gen 3
when something is an eternal truth...it is perpetuated time and again..in scripture...take for instance the enmity between the seed of the serpent and the woman...
Cain and Abel Jacob and Ishmael. Pharisees and sadducees and Jesus
...the Kingdom of Heaven is like a woman who hid a measure of leavening in a bowl of flour...until the whole amount was leavened..
different groups/nations/societies and individuals have served in creation to testify to His word...to show plainly in a 'seen' way what transpires in the unseen realm.
Pharoah served as an evil example of the oppression of Israel..as did Assyria etc.
it is always GOD'S CHOSEN and the adversary pitted against them..that resists the will of God
Our spirit is in a clay vessel..a human body surrounds thye Holy spirit in us all.....Gog's crowd can be likened to the multitude of sin in our flesh..that fights against
the camp'token of Holy spirit'" in us[Holy city]........because the wicked encompass the righteous justice does not go forth....the sin in our flesh can and has,caused us to
miss the mark or fall short of God's Glory.
Beast has seven heads can also be the seven continents or land masses that the harlot sits on..encompassing the entire earth...some can see this as the truth leavens out to fill
the all. Some can't see the forest for the tree's. Truth is truth...let truth increase! Truth is also the prince of Persia that Gabriel and Michael dealt with. and we are told the
Prince of Greece was coming. Being sold to the Greeks can symbolize vain philospy of men instead of truth of Holy spirit
Now the scriptures say Michael will stand up.. Michael's name means 'WHO IS LIKE GOD"? which of course no-one compares..
and NOTHING can stand in the way of His express will
...and wars and desolations shall continue until the end...and ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars.....it's all about the enmity of the seeds
Wow, very cool!
It's a spiritual war which is being fought in the heavens but played out on earth in a very real way.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
--Eph 6
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2012, 04:17:08 PM
Maybe so but an interesting thing happens at the end of the age. The New Jerusalem comes down to earth in fulfillment of the New Covenant.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
--Rev 21
on earth as it is in heaven
And what is the bride? How many brides does God have?
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 30, 2012, 07:24:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2012, 04:17:08 PM
Maybe so but an interesting thing happens at the end of the age. The New Jerusalem comes down to earth in fulfillment of the New Covenant.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
--Rev 21
on earth as it is in heaven
And what is the bride? How many brides does God have?
The bride are the ones who will commune with God inside the New Jerusalem, also known as the sons of God.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--Rev 21
Quote from: Molly on August 29, 2012, 09:32:18 PM
"Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones"
by John A.L. Riley, 1853-1945
1. Ye watchers and ye holy ones,
Bright seraphs, cherubim, and thrones,
Raise the glad strain, Alleluia!
Cry out, dominions, princedoms, powers,
Virtues, archangels, angels' choirs,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
2. O higher than the cherubim,
More glorious than the seraphim,
Lead their praises, Alleluia!
Thou Bearer of the eternal Word,
Most gracious, magnify the Lord,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
3.Respond, ye souls in endless rest,
Ye patriarchs and prophets blest,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Ye holy Twelve, ye martyrs strong,
All saints triumphant, raise the song,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
4. O friend, in gladness let us sing,
Supernal anthems echoing,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
To God the Father, God the Son,
And God the Spirit, Three in One,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
The Lutheran Hymnal
Hymn #475
Text: Ps. 148
Author: John A.L. Riley, 1906
Tune: "Lasst uns erfreuen"
1st Published in: Geistliche Kirchengesaeng
Town: Cologne, 1623
MUSIC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6SHaa2hE7c
Molly I asked the spirit a very specific question, before I posted.
My Israel, Spain, New Zealand and USA post
The fact that you answered made me giggle.
The fact that you answered not quoting scriptures made the
hair on the back of my neck stand up.
I would like to ask you a few questions.
Is this the right venue?
YEAH...AND THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND IS THE GLORY AND HONOUR OF GOD.
THE BRIDE IS THE SEAMLESS INNER GARMENT...THE INNER MAN THAT IS RENEWED DAILY
IF WE BE SEATED IN HEAVENLY PLACES..AND HAVE OUR CONVERSATIONS IN HEAVEN WHILE IN THE SPIRIT.....
WHEN WE SPEAK AND WITTNESS TO THESE THINGS WE SEE AND HEAR..IT IS THAT 1000 YEAR REIGN/OR JUDGEMENT DAY/SABBATH OF WHICH IT IS REST
HE IS SHAKING THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH..AS WITTNESSED BY EARTHQUAKES IN DIVERSE PLACES AND SPACEQUAKES
THE EARTHQUAKES IS NOTHING BUT THE EARTH HELPING THE WOMAN AND OPENING IT'S MOUTH AND SWALLOWING THE FLOODWATERS..FOR THERE
ARE THREE THINGS EVEN FOUR THAT THE EARTH CAN NOT BEAR...A WOMAN THAT IS MARRIED BUT UNLOVED ,IS ONE OF THEM
THE SPACE QUAKES AND STELLAR CLOUDS TESTIFY OF HIS RETURN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN..THE THUNDERS [7] SHAKE THE HEAVENS
WITH HIS JUDGEMENTS
ALL THROUGH-OUT THE BOOK OF THE REVELATION OF CHRIST WE SEE THE BANNEROF HIS LOVE DISPLAYED FOR HER. SUCH THINGS AS
GIVE HER DOUBLE FOR THE WAY SHE TREATED YOU. ARMIES OF HEAVEN RIDING ON WHITE HORSES..WAGING WAR IN RIGHTEOUSNESS AND TRUTH
THE FIRE THAT COMES DOWN AND CONSUMES GOG'S CROWD IS THE ANGELS BUNDLING AND BURNING TARES
IT'S SO AWESOME
Quote from: dajomaco on August 30, 2012, 08:08:23 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 29, 2012, 09:32:18 PM
"Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones"
by John A.L. Riley, 1853-1945
1. Ye watchers and ye holy ones,
Bright seraphs, cherubim, and thrones,
Raise the glad strain, Alleluia!
Cry out, dominions, princedoms, powers,
Virtues, archangels, angels' choirs,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
2. O higher than the cherubim,
More glorious than the seraphim,
Lead their praises, Alleluia!
Thou Bearer of the eternal Word,
Most gracious, magnify the Lord,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
3.Respond, ye souls in endless rest,
Ye patriarchs and prophets blest,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Ye holy Twelve, ye martyrs strong,
All saints triumphant, raise the song,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
4. O friend, in gladness let us sing,
Supernal anthems echoing,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
To God the Father, God the Son,
And God the Spirit, Three in One,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
The Lutheran Hymnal
Hymn #475
Text: Ps. 148
Author: John A.L. Riley, 1906
Tune: "Lasst uns erfreuen"
1st Published in: Geistliche Kirchengesaeng
Town: Cologne, 1623
MUSIC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6SHaa2hE7c
Molly I asked the spirit a very specific question, before I posted.
My Israel, Spain, New Zealand and USA post
The fact that you answered made me giggle.
The fact that you answered not quoting scriptures made the
hair on the back of my neck stand up.
I would like to ask you a few questions.
Is this the right venue?
I quoted scripture all through my answer to you.
Sure.
Re: "lost sheep of the house of Israel..."
"lost"
Strong's Concordance #622 - apollimi, from 575 & the base of 3639; to destroy fully.
#3639- ruin, death, punishment.
The English word "lost" is an erroneous translation holdover from the Latin Vulgate by the King James translators. The "punishment" of the northern ten tribes was banishment from their homeland via being taken into captivity by the Assyrians, it is no more complicated than that, it is not in losing their identity.
A lot of Christian cultic activity has its' roots in numerous mistranslations of the Bible, and this is one of them.
I can tell you with absolute certainty where you can find all of the progeny of the punished northern ten tribes, they are not hard to find, just go to any synagogue outside the land of present day Israel. Why outside of Israel? Because most of the tiny land mass we call Israel today was also the realm of the southern three tribes, Judah, Benjamin, & Levi; these are Jews in the strictest use of the term.
I will repeat it again from the Greek, punished not "lost". You do not have to be lost to be punished. I punished my 10 year old the other day by banishing him to his for the weekend, but I always knew where he was & so did he.
Lost can mean Lost which is why it was translated 'lost'
"lost" [sheep of the house of Israel]
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2012, 04:17:08 PM
Quote from: DougThe general beliefs that you outline here seem a lot like the beliefs of the Christian Identity movement. They believe that whites of European descent can be traced back to the "Lost Tribes of Israel."
The beauty of the lost tribes is that they were lost. We can play games around who they might be today, but lost is lost. I believe they are the Christians, his sheep, of any race. If we are hid in Christ, who is anyone to say who we are?
Those who apply the sayings of Jesus about "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" to the ten northern tribes taken into captivity to Assyria, seem to misuse those scriptures, IMO.
Jesus gave three parables about things that were lost, in Luke 15. The first was about a lost sheep. [vs. 3-7] Then he told a parable about a lost penny. [vs. 8-10] His third parable was about a lost son. [vs. 11-32]
The "lost sheep of the house of Israel" ought to be understood along the lines of these three parables, as the saying is related to the gospel. It is
not a cryptic reference to where the Israelite tribes might be found today.
Jesus said to the Samaritan woman who he met at the well, "salvation is of the Jews." Then he went on to say, "true worshippers shall worship the Father in
spirit and in
truth." [John 4:22-24]
For Jesus, an Israelite was expected to be without guile. He said of Nathaniel, "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" [John 1:47] This is also said of the 144,000 seen on mount Zion in Rev. 14. "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." [vs. 5]
Paul said that being a Jew meant to be circumcised in heart; he discounted the importance of descent from Abraham in the flesh. [Rom. 2:28-29] Paul said that Jesus was "a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers," [Rom. 15:8-9] and also said that "For
we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Phil. 3:3]
Worship in the spirit is contrasted with the letter in Rom. 2:29, and Rom 7:6, where Paul says that we "should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
So in the light of all these things I conclude that the saints are the "lost sheep" that Christ came for. Also consider:
John 9:39
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Jews who did not believe in Jesus were blinded; Paul said of them,
2 Corinthians 3:14-16
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Jesus also said to the Jews, "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." [Luke 5:31-32]
These sayings indicate he did not come for the "righteous" in Israel, but for the "sinners." Not for those who are "whole" in Israel, but the "sick." He did not come for those sheep who were "safe" in the sheepfold but those who are "lost." It has a spiritual meaning. It is not about race, or their ethnic background.
Doug
Creation Concept
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2012, 07:30:21 PM
The bride are the ones who will commune with God inside the New Jerusalem, also known as the sons of God.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--Rev 21
New Jerusalem is the bride adorned for her husband. Who is the husband? Does He marry a literal city? Or is it the bride that goes back to Ezekiel 16. This is why I ask, how many brides does God have? I don't mean to put words into your mouth Molly, but it seems you would say at least 3.
1) ethnic Israel
2) spiritual Israel (christians)
3)The literal city new Jerusalem
My answer is there is only one bride, and 3=2. The New Jerusalem is the body of people. It is where God dwells, which is where? Yes in you, that is the hope of glory, that is the great mystery concerning Christ and the church, His bride. Now this doesn't discount 1) ethnic israel, because as the wealth comes in from the nations they become part of the city. There is no need for the temple in the city, because it is the temple. What is the temple? YOU, don't you know you are the temple of the living God. We are a living temple jointly fitted together.
Paul tells us what the gospel is.
Galatians 3:8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
"All nations." Does that sound like racism to you? To me it sounds like God loves all the nations. It sounds like God has a plan to bless all the nations. And, that plan revolves around a blessing to a people within the nations. With God, it's not about groups, but about individuals. It's not about generalities, it's personal. And, the intensely personal nature of our relationship with him is based on his love for his Son.
Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
We are talking about prophecy in this thread, and it is through the prophecy of the New Covenant that God intends to fulfill his promise to Abraham, "All nations will be blessed through you."
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
--Jeremiah 31
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 31, 2012, 06:29:14 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2012, 07:30:21 PM
The bride are the ones who will commune with God inside the New Jerusalem, also known as the sons of God.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--Rev 21
New Jerusalem is the bride adorned for her husband. Who is the husband? Does He marry a literal city? Or is it the bride that goes back to Ezekiel 16. This is why I ask, how many brides does God have? I don't mean to put words into your mouth Molly, but it seems you would say at least 3.
1) ethnic Israel
2) spiritual Israel (christians)
3)The literal city new Jerusalem
My answer is there is only one bride, and 3=2. The New Jerusalem is the body of people. It is where God dwells, which is where? Yes in you, that is the hope of glory, that is the great mystery concerning Christ and the church, His bride. Now this doesn't discount 1) ethnic israel, because as the wealth comes in from the nations they become part of the city. There is no need for the temple in the city, because it is the temple. What is the temple? YOU, don't you know you are the temple of the living God. We are a living temple jointly fitted together.
well, don't put words in my mouth, RHM. I have more words than I can handle already.
God calls you, the Gentile believer, 'the wild olive tree,' and he calls the Jews, 'the cultivated olive tree.' One is wild and one is cultivated but both are olive trees.
Revelation 11
"3 And I will give power to my two witnesses,
and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands
standing before the God of the earth."
Sounds to me like you are one of the two witnesses. And, yes, there are two.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--Rom 11
Jesus will not return to the earth until the remnant of Israel [house of Judah] repents and petitions him at the end of the age.
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Mat 23
(15) I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. (1) Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. (2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. [Hosea 5:15–6:2]
This will happen in the time of the Latter Rain.
3 Yes, let us know (recognize, be acquainted with, and understand) Him; let us be zealous to know the Lord [to appreciate, give heed to, and cherish Him]. His going forth is prepared and certain as the dawn, and He will come to us as the [heavy] rain, as the latter rain that waters the earth. Hosea 6
At this time God will pour his Spirit on the remnant.
9 And it shall be in that day that I will make it My aim to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.
--Zech 12
Jerusalem will become the praise of the earth.
I have posted watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem; they will never be silent day or night. You who call on the LORD, give yourselves no rest,
and give him no rest till he establishes Jerusalem and makes her the praise of the earth.
--Isa 62:6,7
Molly, in your view, how many brides are there??? I'm not completely opposed to God being a polygamist, but the way I see it is there is only one bride, just like one new man, the dividing wall having been broken down. I really am just curious to know, I'm trying to understand your POV.
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 03:17:07 AM
Lost can mean Lost which is why it was translated 'lost'
"lost" [sheep of the house of Israel]
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
You're selectively focusing on how you want the Greek word to be defined so as to buttress a case for loss of national & ethnic identify. I'll repeat it again, the word "lost" was carried over from the Latin Vulgate by the King James translators, just as they similarly carried over the Latin word "circ" for which the KJ translators inserted the word "church" throughout the new testament, this also does not have the same definition in Greek as it does in Latin. Your focus on "lose" is the reflex Greek which is not the base definition of the word. These are attempts to "christianize" everything that appears in Bible prophecy.
The way you are presenting "lose" carries the tone of trying to completely toss out the word "punish" so as to generate total focus on "lose" which is not part of the base definition of the Greek word. The punishment incurred by the northern ten tribes was to be banished from the land of promise, they
lost their right to live in the land and are banished from it until Christ himself forcibly regathers all of worldwide Jewry back to the land of promise.
Right now most of worldwide Jewry (the 10 northern tribes) do not want to go back to a war torn country of fenced in cities with threats from a nuclear Iran to wipe them all out, therefore only Judah, Benjamin & Levites are presently in the country, the rest of Israel remains scattered throughout the western world, self imposed "banishment" from the land of promise if you will, but it is actually an imposed punishment by God until the time is ripe for fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy when he regathers all of Israel even as it presently is against their will to do so.
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 31, 2012, 01:29:48 PM
Molly, in your view, how many brides are there??? I'm not completely opposed to God being a polygamist, but the way I see it is there is only one bride, just like one new man, the dividing wall having been broken down. I really am just curious to know, I'm trying to understand your POV.
Just one bride.
Quote from: PaulRight now most of worldwide Jewry (the 10 northern tribes) do not want to go back to a war torn country of fenced in cities with threats from a nuclear Iran to wipe them all out, therefore only Judah, Benjamin & Levites are presently in the country, the rest of Israel remains scattered throughout the western world, self imposed "banishment" from the land of promise if you will, but it is actually an imposed punishment by God until the time is ripe for fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy when he regathers all of Israel even as it presently is against their will to do so
The ten northern tribes never called themselves 'Jews.' Judah is one tribe. The tribe of Benjamin and some Levites who returned from Babylon with Judah and rebuilt the Temple would call themselves 'Jews' because they lived in Judea. But, the other ten tribes were Hebrews, and Israel, and Israelites, and Ephraim, and Joseph, never 'Jews.'
I can't imagine them ever calling themselves 'Jews.' That is, if they knew who they were. That is, if they weren't lost to history.
1 Kings 12:16
16 So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying,
What portion have we in David?
Neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse:
To your tents, O Israel:
Now see to thine own house, David.
So Israel departed unto their tents.
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 11:08:29 AM
Jesus will not return to the earth until the remnant of Israel [house of Judah] repents and petitions him at the end of the age.
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Mat 23
In the photo below, the children in the tree are at different heights. Depending on their position in the tree, they have a different view of their surroundings. In a similar way, there are several different levels of understanding the words of Jesus, and prophecy. We are each at different levels, and perhaps, some are in different trees.
(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/girltree.jpg)
Jesus often spoke of sight, and blindness, as a metaphor for understanding spiritual things, or not. He said to his disciples, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." [John 14:7]
But this has a spiritual meaning. Philip questioned him further, and Jesus went on to explain that he was referring to the works that he had performed that they had all seen.
John 14:8-10
Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
When Jesus said to the Jews, "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord," I suggest that the meaning he attached to "see" is spiritual. Lots of Jews observed him on his way to the cross, but they did not "see" him in such a way that it lead to repentance, and understanding of what was occurring, and just how momentous an event for man's destiny his crucifixion would be.
They had eyes, but saw not.At Pentecost, when the apostles preached the gospel and thousands of Jews believed, then they "saw" in a spiritual way, because God opened their eyes, and they repented, and then they said of the apostles, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." They realized Christ was in
them. And Jesus is still in his church today.
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 11:08:29 AM
9 And it shall be in that day that I will make it My aim to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.
--Zech 12
I have seen this quoted several times, as a proof text that ethnic Jews will eventually convert. No doubt they will, but that, I think, is
not what the verse is about. When the prophet says "they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced" he is not referring to ethnic Jews at all. Because it was probably a Roman, not a Jew, who pierced Jesus with a spear.
John 19
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Similarly, it was probably Romans who pierced his hands and feet with the nails, not Jews.
But the nationality of the persons involved is beside the point; the meaning of the prophecy is far more profound, as the words "look upon Me Whom they have pierced" have a higher
spiritual meaning, that involves obtaining a knowledge of God, and believing the gospel.
Isaiah 53:5 NIV
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
It is
our transgressions that pierced Christ, as he died on our behalf, to take away our sins.
Doug
Quote from: DougBecause it was probably a Roman, not a Jew, who pierced Jesus with a spear.
You do understand that conspiracy to commit murder is murder. If a wife hires a hitman to kill her husband, she is just as guilty, maybe more so, of his murder as the hitman. He might have pulled the trigger on the gun but he pulls it by proxy.
But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.--Mat 12:14
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 04:51:45 PM
Quote from: DougBecause it was probably a Roman, not a Jew, who pierced Jesus with a spear.
You do understand that conspiracy to commit murder is murder. If a wife hires a hitman to kill her husband, she is just as guilty, maybe more so, of his murder as the hitman. He might have pulled the trigger on the gun but he pulls it by proxy.
But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
--Mat 12:14
To fulfil the promises to Abraham, and the purpose of God, Jesus was killed like the passover lamb was killed before the Exodus from Egypt. It was prefigured by Abraham's offering of Isaac. Judas was one who had a part in it, as he betrayed Jesus with a kiss; the Pharisees, the priests, the Roman soldiers, Herod, and Pilate all had a part in it. But every one of us also has a part in it, as it was for us he died.
Below are some comments on Zech. 12:10 from Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary.
1. On whom these blessings are poured out. (1.) On the house of David ... The house of David is all summed up in Jesus Christ, the Son of David; and upon him, as the head, the Spirit of grace is poured out, from him to be diffused to all his members; from his fulness we receive, and grace for grace. (2.) On the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the common people; for the operations of the Spirit are the same upon the mean and weak Christians that they are upon the strong and more grown. The inhabitants of Jerusalem cannot influence public affairs by their powers and policies, as the great men of the house of David may, yet they may do good service by their prayers, and therefore upon them the Spirit shall be poured out. The church is Jerusalem, the heavenly Jerusalem; all true believers, that have their conversation in the heaven, are inhabitants of this Jerusalem, and to them this promise belongs. God will pour his Spirit upon them. This is the earnest which all that believe in Christ shall receive; thus they are sanctified; thus they are sealed.
They shall look on me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for him. Here,
[1.] It is foretold that Christ should be pierced, and this scripture is quoted as that which was fulfilled when Christ's side was pierced upon the cross; see Jn. 19:37.
[2.] He is spoken of as one whom we have pierced; it is spoken primarily of the Jews, who persecuted him to death (and we find that those who pierced him are distinguished from the other kindreds of the earth that shall wail because of him, Rev. 1:7); yet it is true of us all as sinners, we have pierced Christ, inasmuch as our sins were the cause of his death, for he was wounded for our transgressions, and they are the grief of his soul; he is broken with the whorish heart of sinners, who therefore are said to crucify him afresh and put him to open shame.
[3.] Those that truly repent of sin look upon Christ as one whom they have pierced, who was pierced for their sins and is pierced by them; and this engages them to look unto him, as those that are deeply concerned for him.Doug
Doug, I don't technically disagree with what you are saying, but I quoted an end time prophecy about the Jews, and you are muddying the waters trying to pretend it's about anyone else except the Jews.
How do I know it is about the Jews? Because the Bible tells us it is--house of David, house of David, house of David....and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
9 And it shall be in that day that I will make it My aim to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.
--Zech 12
mARK 12;35
hOW IS
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 05:28:49 PM
Doug, I don't technically disagree with what you are saying, but I quoted an end time prophecy about the Jews, and you are muddying the waters trying to pretend it's about anyone else except the Jews.
IMO, the claim that Zech. 12:10 applies to ethnic Jews, and the assertion that the
Jerusalem in this chapter is the earthly city, both tend to pollute the
streams of living waters of the gospel, that flow from the holy city as foretold in Zech 14:8.
Isaiah said mount Zion and Jerusalem would be "established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills," [Isa. 2:2] and his prophecy was fulfilled, when Jesus ascended to his Father's throne. He represented the "mountain of the Lord's house," and the "house of David." He was established upon the throne of David, as Peter said that he was "made Christ," which means he fulfilled the promises about a future king on David's throne who would reign forever. John said, "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." [1 John 2:22]
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 05:28:49 PM
How do I know it is about the Jews? Because the Bible tells us it is--house of David, house of David, house of David....and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
The "tabernacle of David" must be the same as the "house of David," and in the New Testament, James identified the tabernacle of David with the church, quoting Amos 9.
Acts 15
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
So, the promise of the spirit of grace and of supplications in Zech. 12:10 applies to the house of David, but this is the church, the heavenly Jerusalem, and the bride of Christ, those who are "without guile," not to ethnic Jews, not to those who deny that Jesus is the Christ, and that he reigns upon the throne of David in Jerusalem, over the twelve tribes of Israel.
According to the law of Moses, those who did not hear Jesus Christ, and who do not believe he was the promised Messiah, are cut off from Israel; they are "destroyed from among the people." [Acts 3:23] They are branches broken off from their tree. [Rom. 11:17-21]
Dispensationalists may not believe this; they continue to insist that unbelieving Jews remain Israel, and so are deceived, IMO. Those who believe in Christ are "made nigh" to the promises and covenants of Israel by faith.
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 05:28:49 PM
9 And it shall be in that day that I will make it My aim to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.
--Zech 12
IMO, the "nations that come against Jerusalem" include worldly governments, political parties, churches, tens of thousands of sects and denominations, and movements such as dispensationalism and preterism; Paul said "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [Eph. 6:12] The Spirit of grace and of supplications is the Holy Spirit that is promised to those who have faith in Christ. Misinterpreting the prophecy robs the church of this promise. The house of David, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the prophecy must be understood in the light of the gospel, and the things revealed in the New Testament and in other prophecies. Since Jesus ascended to heaven, Jerusalem is raised up, and has become "Jerusalem which is above" and the "heavenly Jerusalem." The promise of the Spirit applies to the saints who are part of the "heavenly Jerusalem," not to a particular national or racial group.
Doug
well, I don't know what to say, Doug. You are redefining everything to have to do with the church. If you want to write your own definitions, not much I can do about that. No the house of David is not the same thing as the tabernacle of David. The church age will come to an end when the fulfillment of the Gentiles is achieved. Paul tells us this, and that then, it becomes all about the Jews and that little country, Israel, at the end of the age. Let me remind you again--
28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
29 For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]
--Rom 11
WHEN dAVID WANTED TO BUILD A HOUSE FOR gOD...HE WAS TOLD THAT GOD WOULD BUILD HIM A HOUSE INSTEAD.
THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD...HOW IS HE DAVID'S SON THEN
THE KING PART5 OF KING-PREIST COME THROUGH THE LINEAGE OF DAVID...THE PREIST PART COME THROUGH FATHER IN NAMING CHRIST
HIGH PREIST AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHEZEDEK...
IT IS FOR THIS REASON..THE LORD SAID UNTO MY LORD
CHRIST JESUS IS SON OF GOD/SON OF DAVID..AND HE IS THE SON OF DAVID THAT BUILDS A HOUSE FOR GOD AND DAVID
KING/PREIST
HOUSE OF DAVID IS jESUS cHRIST SON OF DAVID....JESUS CHRIST,SON OF GOD IS HIGH PREIST FOREVER AFTER THE MANNER OF MELCHEZEDEK
Quote from: sheila on August 31, 2012, 06:54:27 PM
WHEN dAVID WANTED TO BUILD A HOUSE FOR gOD...HE WAS TOLD THAT GOD WOULD BUILD HIM A HOUSE INSTEAD.
THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD...HOW IS HE DAVID'S SON THEN
THE KING PART5 OF KING-PREIST COME THROUGH THE LINEAGE OF DAVID...THE PREIST PART COME THROUGH FATHER IN NAMING CHRIST
HIGH PREIST AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHEZEDEK...
IT IS FOR THIS REASON..THE LORD SAID UNTO MY LORD
CHRIST JESUS IS SON OF GOD/SON OF DAVID..AND HE IS THE SON OF DAVID THAT BUILDS A HOUSE FOR GOD AND DAVID
KING/PREIST
HOUSE OF DAVID IS jESUS cHRIST SON OF DAVID....JESUS CHRIST,SON OF GOD IS HIGH PREIST FOREVER AFTER THE MANNER OF MELCHEZEDEK
Yes! That's a very beautiful way to look at it.
Jesus is house of Judah. He came to his own and his own received him not. But their refusal of him meant the reconciliation of the world.
And, this, all because the birthright was split by Jacob--the sceptre went to Judah, and the promises to Ephraim.
And at the end of the age, he will hold them together as two sticks in one hand!
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 06:53:37 PM
well, I don't know what to say, Doug. You are redefining everything to have to do with the church. If you want to write your own definitions, not much I can do about that. No the house of David is not the same thing as the tabernacle of David.
Perhaps you could explain how they are different. Comments below on Acts 15:16 are from Christopher Wordsworth's (http://archive.org/details/thenewtestament02unknuoft) commentary, p. 113.
τὴν σκηνὴν ...
tugurium, tabernaculum, domum. The word is not
palace, but
tent, to show the low estate to which the house of David had been reduced, when raised up into the Universal Church by Christ: cf. Isa. liv. 2. The
Tabernacle of David is the Church of God, to be raised up in the Seed of David, which is Christ, the Eternal Word, Who
pitched His tent in our Nature (John i. 14) in the house of David, and so raised up for ever the tabernacle of our fallen humanity (
OEcumen. p. 123, and compare
Hengstenberg, Christol. iii. 227), and in Whom all Nations are blessed.
This is a remarkable interpretation of Hebrew Prophecies; an interpretation delivered at Jerusalem itself, by the Apostle St. James, the first Bishop of Jerusalem. And it declares that the true Restoration of the Tabernacle of David is to be found in the reception of the residue of the human family, and in the flowing-in of
all Nations, whether Jew or Gentile, into the Church of Christ. Is not this a divine declaration on the true "Restoration of the Jews?"
I suppose the line of the kings of the dynasty of David, in the ancient kingdom of Judah was a "tent," as it was temporal, and fell into decay after the Jews were taken into captivity in Babylon, but God had promised to build David a "house," which was the more lasting structure, built on the foundation of Christ, which is the church. So if there is any difference in the terms, the "house" of David is the eternal kingdom of Christ, and the "tabernacle" was the temporal dynasty of kings from David to Zedekiah, whose sons were slain before his eyes, and his eyes were put out, and he was bound and carried to Babylon. [2 Kings 25:7]
The tabernacle was fallen down, and it was raised up by Christ, who ascended to heaven, and was given the throne of David, an eternal throne, reigning over the 12 tribes of Israel, in Jerusalem, which is the heavenly Jerusalem.
The saints are called "kings and priests," and "a royal priesthood," as they are included in the Jerusalem above, and reign with Christ, and offer up spiritual sacrifices. Peter said, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." [1 Peter 2:9-10]
Doug
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2012, 08:57:36 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on August 30, 2012, 08:08:23 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 29, 2012, 09:32:18 PM
"Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones"
by John A.L. Riley, 1853-1945
1. Ye watchers and ye holy ones,
Bright seraphs, cherubim, and thrones,
Raise the glad strain, Alleluia!
Cry out, dominions, princedoms, powers,
Virtues, archangels, angels' choirs,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
2. O higher than the cherubim,
More glorious than the seraphim,
Lead their praises, Alleluia!
Thou Bearer of the eternal Word,
Most gracious, magnify the Lord,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
3.Respond, ye souls in endless rest,
Ye patriarchs and prophets blest,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Ye holy Twelve, ye martyrs strong,
All saints triumphant, raise the song,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
4. O friend, in gladness let us sing,
Supernal anthems echoing,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
To God the Father, God the Son,
And God the Spirit, Three in One,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
The Lutheran Hymnal
Hymn #475
Text: Ps. 148
Author: John A.L. Riley, 1906
Tune: "Lasst uns erfreuen"
1st Published in: Geistliche Kirchengesaeng
Town: Cologne, 1623
MUSIC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6SHaa2hE7c
Molly I asked the spirit a very specific question, before I posted.
My Israel, Spain, New Zealand and USA post
The fact that you answered made me giggle.
The fact that you answered not quoting scriptures made the
hair on the back of my neck stand up.
I would like to ask you a few questions.
Is this the right venue?
I quoted scripture all through my answer to you.
Sure.
In a traditional wedding ceremony (i.e. where Jesus turns the water into wine)
Who's responsibility was it to provide the music?
An article that addresses the topic in the current discussion:
Two-House built on sand: Apostles did not believe that Gentiles were the "Lost Tribes of Israel" (http://dailyminyan.com/2012/08/06/two-house-built-on-sand-apostles-did-not-believe-that-gentiles-were-the-lost-tribes-of-israel/)
Quote
This theology, in its most popular interpretation, makes a bold claim that most if not all of the Gentiles/Christians who believe in Yeshua (Jesus) are actually flesh and blood Israelites, i.e. literal relatives of the Jewish people and are in fact members of the so called "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel".
Doug
I found this Messianic Jewish Site at your link Doug that argues the Gentiles are
the lost tribes of Israel.
Gentiles as the People Called by His Name (Acts 15)
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15
Gentiles (along with Jews) are Israel (1 Peter2: 9-10)
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2
These are the words applied to Israel by God in Ex. 19:5,6; Deut. 7:6; Hosea 1:10 and 2:23, and were first applied to the nation of Israel, who were chosen at the time to be a special possession, a holy people, a kingdom of priests, etc
The Gentile Corinthians Celebrated Passover: 1 Cor. 5:7-8
PROPHETICAL:
Isaiah 2:2-3; 56:6
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations [Gentiles] shall flow unto it.
3 And many people [a flock] shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Isa 2
Jeremiah 31:33
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; [ten tribes] After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Micah 4:2
2 And many nations [Gentiles] shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Zech 2; 8:22-23
Zech 2
10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord.
11 And many nations [;Gentiles] shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
12 And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zech 8
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
O.T.: There is a group of Old Testament texts which contain a prophecy regarding the lost House of Israel (the Northern Kingdom of Israel composed of the Northern tribes) that indicates that the House of Israel will suffer exile, identity loss, dispersion, but will eventually find restoration through the out-working of the New Covenant [some of the primary texts include but are not limited to Hosea 1:2-11; 14:5-6; Jeremiah 11:16-17; Amos 9:8-15 (LXX); Ezekiel 37:15-28; Jeremiah 31:31-37; Genesis 46:17-20].
N.T.: Peter, Paul, and James (of the Jerusalem Council) applied this Two House prophecy to the gentile Believers in Yeshua, apparently viewing the first-century gentile Believers as evidence that G-d was beginning to restore the lost House of Israel through the out-working of the New Covenant [Romans 9:23-26; Romans 11:13-27; Acts 15:13-18; 1 Peter 2:9].
[People] would try to argue that Torah differentiates between citizens and non-citizens and that gentiles are non-citizens. But then you just show them Ephesians 2 where it says gentiles are now politeia (citizens) in Israel. Still, many do not believe what seems to be so simple.
http://orthodoxmessianic.blogspot.com/2012/08/ffoz-and-divine-invitation-part-ii.html
This one:
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. Zech 8
Ten men --ten tribes?--out of all the nations shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew [Jesus]....
Excerpts from Zechariah 8.
2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury.
3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain. --Zechariah 8
8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.--Zechariah 8
"And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, 0 house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong."--Zechariah 8:13
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.--Zechariah 8
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you." - Zechariah 8:23.
I've repeatedly tried to insert enough information here that you should be improved by understanding Daniels image with the head of gold and the world empires revealed by it was ended by the coming of the stone cut out without hands: Jesus and His body; and, it is not re-imaged in the four beasts. I'm convinced you're missing it by trying to imagine the rebirth of the Roman Empire which ended just as Daniel prophesied. These four beasts in Daniel represent Great Britain, Russia, Germany and, the actual world government born between Hitler's death and the rebirth of Israel, The United Nations. This rebirth of modern Israel parallels the location of the destruction of Ancient Israel amidst the Empires of the Image. I feel bad for so many that seem enslaved to the recent, only about 100 year old traditions of dipsinsationalism. We can grow, and change, "a little here and a little there..."
Maybe someone can relocate the short article on the topic that I posted a link to previously. (Was it in A.S.K. ?)
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 03:17:07 AM
Lost can mean Lost which is why it was translated 'lost'
"lost" [sheep of the house of Israel]
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
destroy- about 30 times in KJ
perish-about 30 times in KJ
lost (lose) about 26 times in KJ
Even the King James writers translating from the Latin Vulgate were having a difficult time with this rendering. They at least got it right more times than they got it wrong by about 2 1/2 times. Incorrectly understanding reflexive forms also created a problem for them as it is for your selective use of it. Selective translating of this word is what Mormons & other British-Israelism groups do to justify rewriting scripture in an attempt to abscond with the covenant God gave only to Israel.
Quote from: Paul L on September 01, 2012, 02:38:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 03:17:07 AM
Lost can mean Lost which is why it was translated 'lost'
"lost" [sheep of the house of Israel]
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
destroy- about 30 times in KJ
perish-about 30 times in KJ
lost (lose) about 26 times in KJ
Even the King James writers translating from the Latin Vulgate were having a difficult time with this rendering. They at least got it right more times than they got it wrong by about 2 1/2 times. Incorrectly understanding reflexive forms also created a problem for them as it is for your selective use of it. Selective translating of this word is what Mormons & other British-Israelism groups do to justify rewriting scripture in an attempt to abscond with the covenant God gave only to Israel.
I am not sent but unto
the destroyed sheep
the perished sheep
the dead sheep
the lost sheep
of the house of Israel.
Take your pick. I don't care. Every translator I can find picks 'lost.'
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
--John 10
Ezekiel 34:11-13
11 "For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his sheep that have been scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, and I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land. And I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the ravines, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
1 Peter 2:25
25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Acts 28:28
28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.
John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me
Eze 37
24 "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes.
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. Eze 37
Quote from: Molly on September 01, 2012, 03:21:27 PM
Quote from: Paul L on September 01, 2012, 02:38:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2012, 03:17:07 AM
Lost can mean Lost which is why it was translated 'lost'
"lost" [sheep of the house of Israel]
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
destroy- about 30 times in KJ
perish-about 30 times in KJ
lost (lose) about 26 times in KJ
Even the King James writers translating from the Latin Vulgate were having a difficult time with this rendering. They at least got it right more times than they got it wrong by about 2 1/2 times. Incorrectly understanding reflexive forms also created a problem for them as it is for your selective use of it. Selective translating of this word is what Mormons & other British-Israelism groups do to justify rewriting scripture in an attempt to abscond with the covenant God gave only to Israel.
I am not sent but unto
the destroyed sheep
the perished sheep
the dead sheep
the lost sheep
of the house of Israel.
Take your pick. I don't care. Every translator I can find picks 'lost.'
Hanging onto to "lost" & not using it reflexively as the Greek intends, gives only 50% of meaning to the word
appollumi. If Strong's Concordance is correct that this Greek word is used in the reflexive form, then the translators you speak of should have written "destroy-lose" in all their Greek to English translations, but unfortunately they didn't have the foresight to see that their sloppy translating could become so badly corrupted that a lot of readers would interpret "lost" to mean loss of identity.
What happened to the Northern 10 tribes happened also to the Southern three, they
lost their right to live in the land for their idolatry, but nowhere is there a scripture you can point that says they
lost their identity. But that however doesn't stop the grandest strategy in history that ever been mounted to rob an entire nation of its' identity, and of God's covenant promises given only to the 12 tribes of Israel.
By the 4th century AD the Catholic church started the insidious process of Preterism whereby the Pope claimed the Catholic Church replaced Israel in all of God's promises & became the "true church". This is what you & Doug are presently bantering back & forth on. Doug has absolutely no leg to stand on in his arguments, you've definitely outclassed him on the issue & you've left him struggling to keep his head above water, good job. The remaining challenge for you is ridding of the rest of the influences of Preterism in your thinking & getting the Christian church out of the parts of the Bible not written to it, principally in the area of prophecy.
Almost none of Bible prophecy is written to the Christian Church (body of Christ) except for a few references by the Apostle Paul. All of endtime prophecy is written to whom? Christ tells John
when &
where to deliver the message of the prophecies of Revelation, and to do it on the opening day of the Day of the Lord (Rev 1:10-11) as is clearly stated even by the King James translators as encumbered as they were with the Latin Vulgate.
The crux of the problem is that most Christian churches want to hang onto to their "churches" no matter where it appears in the Bible even if the context does not support it & they want to diminish Israel, they even go so far as to say that the opening day of the last seven years of this age should be interpreted as being 2000 years long (church ages). Huh? That's a real stretch of the clearly worded math given by none other than Christ himself. If I as an engineer were to design a bridge or construct a building using that kind of math, trust me, you would never want to cross that bridge or take up residence in that building.
Paul L
With all due respect, I realize you feel Christians should not contend with one another over holy writ, but that is not in accord with what Apostle Paul commanded us to do, recall he commanded us the search the scriptures daily to see whether anything be true. It is when we brush aside Paul's advice that the Body of Christ runs into problems with polluting doctrines & teachings that result in weird oddball groups to rise up.
As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
If I am to read the above literally the Jewish Bereans read and understood the Old Testament.
That any thing Paul said about Jesus could be read in the Old Testament.
It is never wrong to press another member of the Body of Christ about a teaching, theory, etc. But I could agree with you that there is a point of "backing off", but only after a reasonable time of honest debate, don't forget the Apostles had many of those among themselves, it even caused Paul & Barnabas to part company over the intenseness of their differences.
Paul and Barnabas had a difference over simple human needs and frailties.
Not over a different interpretations of scriptures.
Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God
Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥasan al-Mahdī (Arabic:محمد بن الحسن المهدي) (born c. July 29, 869 (15 Sha'bān 255 AH), in Occultation since 941) is believed by Twelver Shī'a Muslims to be the Mahdī, an ultimate savior of humankind and the final Imām of the Twelve Imams. Twelver Shī'a believe that al-Mahdī was born in 869 and did not die but rather was hidden by God in 941 (this is referred to as the Occultation) and will later emerge with Isa (Jesus Christ) in order to fulfill their mission of bringing peace and justice to the world. He assumed the Imamate at 5 years of age. Some Shi'īte schools do not consider ibn-al-Hasan to be the Mahdī, although the majority sect Twelvers do.
Sunnis and other Shi'ites believe that the Mahdi has not yet been born, and therefore his exact identity is only known to Allah. Aside from the Mahdi's precise genealogy, Sunnis accept many of the same hadiths Shias accept about the predictions regarding the Mahdi's emergence, his acts, and his universal Khilafat. Sunnis also have a few more Mahdi hadiths which are not present in Shia collections.
--Wikipedia
Three times in Mat 24 Jesus warns of false prophets and Messiahs.
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
--Mat 24
Twelver Shi'as cite various references from the Qur'an and reports, or Hadith, from Imam Mahdi and the Twelve Imams with regard to the reappearance of al-Mahdi who would, in accordance with Allah's command, bring justice and peace to the world by establishing Islam throughout the world.
Mahdi is reported to have said:
Shi'as believe that Imam al-Mahdi will reappear when the world has fallen into chaos and civil war emerges between the human race for no reason. At this time, it is believed, half of the true believers will ride from Yemen carrying white flags to Makkah, while the other half will ride from Karbala, in Iraq, carrying black flags to Makkah. At this time, Imam al-Mahdi will come wielding Allah's Sword, the Blade of Evil's Bane, Zulfiqar (Arabic: ذو الفقار, ðū l-fiqār), the Double-Bladed Sword. He will also come and reveal the texts in his possession, such as al-Jafr and al-Jamia.
Shi'as believe that Jesus will also come (after Imam Mahdi's re-appearance) and follow the Imam Mahdi to destroy tyranny and falsehood and to bring justice and peace to the world.[15
--Wikipedia
In Ahmadiyya Islam, the terms "Messiah" and "Mahdi" are synonymous terms for one and the same person.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24
Why did Jesus say 'desert'? What desert will the Mahdi appear in first?
[I already told you.]
Pay attention to your Lord, children.
Wow Molly, your knowledge of Islam is impressive and very enlightening, thanks for that.
Hindus and Budhists, B'hai's and many other religions ascribe to various forms of "avatarism"- the idea that God, or the Universe, occasionally Incarnates in an individual. This is where the dalai-lamas get their authority, as teachers of those who believe they are avatars, or incarnations of God. As such, some of them(Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims Bhai's etc.) are willing to accept Jesus as an avatar of God, but not the avatar of God.
True Christians believe Jesus, as the only begotten Son, is the "radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature"(Hebrews 1:1-3). Our gospel is the "light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ"
(2Co 4:3-6)
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
The god of this world, has many images, constructed to come along side the gospel, accepting the name of Jesus but NOT EXALTING IT ABOVE EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED, or according Him His proper honor as THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, the LOGOS MADE FLESH.
So, it is my opinion that as these days of deception grow darker there will be a manifestation of this spirit of anti-Christ (latin, vicar Christ against by being in place of). This manifestation will be embraced by the whole world as a MESSIAH, a MAHDI, an AVATAR of GOD. He will satisfy the RELIGIOUS & PROPHETIC REQUIREMENTS OF MANY FAITHS, and will so deceive many, empowered to do many sorcerys and deceiving works so that even the very elect might be deceived. He will not however, bow to ANY NAME OTHER THAN HIS OWN. Exalting himself above every god and so-called god and exalting himself as god and causing the whole world to ACKNOWLEDGE HIM AS GOD. I would expect this to be a quasi-universalist ideology, an "all roads lead to liberty" figure uniquely tailored to fit these many different religious requirements, and the people will be so tired of wars and conflicts based in EXTREME FUNDAMENTALISM OF ALL TYPES, including American right wing fundamentalist Christianity(one of the greatest war-mongering deceptions in the history of the world) that they will receive gladly this NEW AVATAR. Perhaps a Pope or a Mahdi as prophet and a Jewish Jesuit Arab as THE ONE. Who knows :o) would make a good novel. Oh yeah, Tim Lahaye already did that didnt he?
Nevertheless, my point is, avatarism is a common thread that makes such a thing possible, if enough people believe it. Here in NYC I see shops devoted to the concept where the books and the icons of new age religion are sold to the growing market for these concepts that are being popularized from many different sources. the crowd awaiting a deliverer who will come "in their own image" is growing exponentially. The cartoon of American Christianity is helping them paint Christ as irrelevant, and as portrayed by American Christianity, He mostly is.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 04, 2012, 06:17:22 AM
. . . and the people will be so tired of wars and conflicts based in EXTREME FUNDAMENTALISM OF ALL TYPES, including American right wing fundamentalist Christianity (one of the greatest war-mongering deceptions in the history of the world) . . .
Originally "fundamentalists" were so called because many across various demoninations felt a threat to basic Christianity with the flooding in of German higher criticism and their unbelieving theories. Not that I'm naming all the fundamentals, but they are things like the virgin birth, inspiration and innerancy of scripture in the original documents, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Christ, etc.
Being a Christian Universalist is just one of several major reasons I'm not acceptable to people who call themselves "fundamentalists." That term was so taken over by the very fissiparious "dipsinsationalists" (nick named the "fussin' fundies") that the mainstream, separated themselves from them and took up "evangelicalism" as their identifying label. Many are now concerned "evangelicalism" is losing its ability to represent a unified and single front since it tries to cover "the emergent church" groups, conservative demoninationals, the home church movement and the most of independent churches that are charismatic. To speak of fundamentalists today, know there's a geater weight of dipsinsationalists in the term proportionally than there is for those in the "evangelical" label.
What I don't understand is why you say, "American right wing fundamentalist Christianity [
is](one of the greatest war-mongering deceptions in the history of the world)" when, for one thing, they are probably as much as one third radical pacifists, with another twenty percent who are very inclined to pacifisim. The idea you express is hammered over and over at us here in the United States through television, movies, magazines and papers, as well as books. It is perhaps being pushed for several reasons. We as a nation are being prepared for possible changes certain elements want to bring about. They are seen as easy prey for a totalitarian gesture to subdue the rest. Also, those taking over despise being revealed by Bible people as the moral sinkholes they are.
If the fussin' fundies are "war mongering," at all (much less the greatest war mongering deception in history) then give me some examples. I'm open to having my understanding changed; but, I understand them to be despised by the world and slandered more seriously and systematically than they or many others realize.
For now, rather than search and search some more to get the quotations, I'll just answer them.
There has been stated the assumption that the King James Bible is translated from Latin. This is not so. It is based primarily on the work of William Tyndale in the N. T. and Miles Coverdale in the O.T. They both worked from the original languages as did the King James translators who consulted also many other sources.
The English Bible's from the time, based on the Latin, had become very corrupted and inconsistent with one another. So there was an English Bible from Jerome's Latin that was prepared under John Wycliffe who died in 1384. I believe that was by Hereford. That was revised by Purvey and released complete in 1395.
There is really no comparison between the avatars of the other religions and the Mahdi of Islam. The Mahdi [also known as the Twelfth Imam] will be a warlike political figure who will lead Islam to world wide caliphate [through conquest] where Jews and Christians will convert or die.
There is a frightening parallel between the Mahdi and the Christian Antichrist. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims that believe that the Mahdi will come at the end of the age.
"He will be a descendant of Mohammed who will come on a white horse. He will deliver the world from the reign of the Dajjal. In the process he will conquer Israel and slaughter the Jews. He will establish a new Islamic world headquarters in Jerusalem, and he will rule for 7 years (and possibly 8 or 9 years, depending upon differing Hadith passages). His rule will end with his death.12"
The Mahdi will ride a white horse and many Muslims consider that the white horse of Rev 6 is describing the rise of the Mahdi:
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
--Rev 6
The Mahdi: Islam's Awaited Messiah
Among the Major Signs, the most anticipated and central sign that Muslims are awaiting is the coming of a man known as, "The Mahdi." In Arabic, al-Mahdi means, "The Guided One" 1 He is also sometimes referred to by Shi'a Muslims as Sahib Al-Zaman or Al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar which translated mean "The Lord of the Age" and "The Guided/Awaited One." The Mahdi is the first of the Major Signs. This is confirmed by Ibn Kathir, the renowned Muslim scholar from the eighth century:
After the lesser signs of the Hour appear and increase, mankind will have reached a stage of great suffering. Then the awaited Mahdi will appear; He is the first of the greater clear, signs of the Hour.2
The coming of the Mahdi is the central crowning element of all Islamic end-time narratives. So central to Islamic eschatological expectations is the coming of the Mahdi, that some Muslim scholars do not even refer to "the Minor Signs" as such, but instead, refer to them as, "The signs accompanying the Mahdi". 3 While there are some variations of belief between the Sunni and Shia' sects of Islam and while certain quarters of Sunnis reject him altogether, general belief in the Mahdi is not a sectarian issue within Islam, but is universal among most Muslims. According to Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America:
The coming of the Mahdi is established doctrine for both Sunni and Shi'a Muslims, and indeed for all humanity 4
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch04_the_mahdi.htm
"Lord of the Age" is a title for the Mahdi.
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Cor 4:4
Coincidence?
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thess 2:4
Quote from: reFORMer on September 04, 2012, 08:36:18 AM
For now, rather than search and search some more to get the quotations, I'll just answer them.
There has been stated the assumption that the King James Bible is translated from Latin. This is not so. It is based primarily on the work of William Tyndale in the N. T. and Miles Coverdale in the O.T. They both worked from the original languages as did the King James translators who consulted also many other sources.
The English Bible's from the time, based on the Latin, had become very corrupted and inconsistent with one another. So there was an English Bible from Jerome's Latin that was prepared under John Wycliffe who died in 1384. I believe that was by Hereford. That was revised by Purvey and released complete in 1395.
Translators of the King James used the 1590's Greek language (not manuscripts) editions of Theodore Beza which included his Latin version of the Greek& Stephanus's edition of the Latin Vulgate. Beza made no use of 5th century Greek manuscripts even though they were available to him. It was the 1870's before 2nd, 3rd & 4th century Greek manuscipts were discovered & became the basis for the Revised Std Version in 1901.
Iranian Spiritual Leader: Prepare For Environment That Will Bring Mahdi/End Times
http://www.thetrumpet.com
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Tension is rising in the Middle East again. The civil war in Syria is worsening, Western sanctions on Iran are intensifying, large-scale military exercises by both Tehran and the West are on the cards. This is all worrying and cause for alarm.
Yet, it is an unprecedented, largely ignored national address by Iran's supreme leader that is most alarming. On Friday, a number of Iranian state-run media outlets ran stories highlighting remarks by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. In his address, Khamenei warned his people all over the world that Iran must prepare for war, and that we are now living in "the end of times."
More specifically, Khamenei warned of the imminent return of the Mahdi, or the 12th imam. "The issue of Imam Mahdi is of utmost importance, and his reappearance has been clearly stated in our holy religion of Islam," he said. "We must study and remind ourselves of the end of times and Imam Mahdi's era. ... We must prepare the environment for the coming so that the great leader will come."
The belief of a returning Mahdi, or 12th imam, is a defining doctrine within the most populous group of Shiites known as Ithna Ashari, or "Twelvers." In addition to Iran's supreme leader, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also belongs to this influential group. According to Twelver theology, the Mahdi's return will be precipitated by planet-engulfing wars, the likes of which will destroy one third of the world's population, and another third as a result of widespread hunger, disease and social unrest. Finally, the destruction will be capped with the annihilation of the Jewish state and the killing of all infidels, after which the seed of Islam will be planted in the four corners of the Earth.
Here in the West, most people mistakenly ignore this theology and the depth of commitment Khamenei, Ahmadinejad and their followers have to it. This is to our own peril. Twelvers don't just believe the Mahdi will soon return: They consider it a personal responsibility to create the apocalyptic conditions that will surround his return.
Frankly, ushering in the Mahdi is the guiding principle of Iran's foreign policy!
As Joel Rosenburg, former aide to Benjamin Netanyahu, put it, "In order to bring about this Islamic messiah, the Mahdi, the 12th imam, Islamic leaders need to hasten his coming by destroying little Satan, Israel, and the great Satan, the United States. The leaders actually believe they need to create bloody carnage, the death of millions of people in order to create the conditions for the Mahdi to bring peace".
Indeed, as Khamenei recently told his people: "We must prepare for the coming. Since we consider ourselves the warriors of the 12th imam, we must fight."
Khamenei has created several centers in Iran devoted to the research of the coming of the Mahdi, and there's even an annual conference on Mahdiism. In 2004, during his tenure as mayor of Tehran, Ahmadinejad constructed a "grand avenue" in preparation for the Mahdi's return. When he became president in 2005, he allocated $17 million for a blue-tiled mosque in Jamkaran (south of the capital), closely associated with mahdaviat. Inside Iran, both Khamenei and Ahmadinejad have been quite literally preparing the place to which they believe the Mahdi will return.
Ahmadinejad's conviction is so strong, he even stood in front of a room full of United Nations leaders in New York and prayed for Allah to help him hasten the Mahdi's return—which he could only do by precipitating a holocaust-type event!
Citing Iranian news media, the Journal of Turkish Weekly last week reported that the regime in Tehran is even distributing a booklet titled The Last Six Months. According to Reza Kahlili (a pseudonym for a former cia operative in Iran's Revolutionary Guards), "the material admonishes the Revolutionary Guards and the Basij paramilitary forces that they must be prepared to do their duties during the expected war."
One can hardly overstate the influence of Twelver theology on Iranian national and foreign policy. "From redressing the gulf between rich and poor in Iran, to challenging the United States and Israel and enhancing Iran's power with nuclear programs, every issue is designed to lay the foundation for the Mahdi's return," wrote Scott Peterson.
Amir Mohebian, political editor of the Islamic Resalat newspaper, noted the effect of Ahmadinejad's religion on his leadership: "This kind of mentality makes you very strong. ... If you think these are the last days of the world, and the Mahdi will come again, this idea will change all your relations." Putting himself in Ahmadinejad's shoes, Mohebian stated, "If I think the Mahdi will come in two, three or four years, why should I be soft? Now is the time to stand strong, to be hard."
Here's how Charles Krauthammer summed up Iran under Ahmadinejad not long after he was elected in 2005: "A Holocaust-denying, virulently anti-Semitic, aspiring genocidist, on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons of the apocalypse, believes that the end is not only near but nearer than the next American presidential election. ... This kind of man would have, to put it gently, less inhibition about starting Armageddon than a normal person."
When you read these statements, you begin to grasp exactly what is at stake right now in the Middle East!
Problem is, too few are paying any attention to these facts.
Hi Reformer
The fundamentalist movement may have started in reaction against liberalism and secularization, but it has become a support bed for another gospel that mixes American culture with the faith of Jesus Christ (this is only my opinion). The fact that is that America has been exporting war and pillaging the economies of developing nations through corporations while espousing a propagandist message through the right that we are still a "Christian" nation and the "God and family" are at the core of our values. I think this is obvious to anyone who lifts the lid a little, and I love America- I am just not willing to stick my head in the sand.
I understand that my perspective is controversial but I really don't think it is far- fetched at all. The Pharisees were, in my opinion, exactly what fundamentalism has become(by and large) in the U.S. today. They were sold out to Rome even as they maintained a mask of piety. They collaborated in the crucifixion of Jesus because they did not know the Father.
Anyone who carefully reads the prophets of Israel and the words of Jesus will understand that financial integrity, fairness, social justice and fair distribution of resources were FUNDAMENTAL tenets of the law, the prophets and the gospel. In My Opinion the majority of fundamentalists and Pentecostals have bought into a corrupt vision that ignores the pleas of Christ and the prophets as they build bigger churches and strive against one another theologically and organizationally rather than reaching out with a helping hand to the world around them.
I do apologize for stepping on anyones toes if I have- but this is what I think is happening.
Hi Molly,
I am sure the Mahdi is unique to Islam, and certainly unique in a different way to extremist Muslims. My opinion is that, even as the scripture says that the spirit of anti-christ will rise on a tide of promises of "peace and safety"- that there will be a figure who will arise as an icon of peace, and at some point claim to be an avatar of God, who will of course actually be a ravenous beast- and that he will appeal in a VERY BROAD WAY to may of the main religions of the world. I don't happen to believe that a polarizing figure such as a jihadist style Muslim could fill that role. I feel like it will be something that will appeal to East, West and Middle East alike. Something that transcends anything we are currently seeing. Again, that's just my opinion.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2012, 05:41:07 AM
Hi Molly,
I am sure the Mahdi is unique to Islam, and certainly unique in a different way to extremist Muslims. My opinion is that, even as the scripture says that the spirit of anti-christ will rise on a tide of promises of "peace and safety"- that there will be a figure who will arise as an icon of peace, and at some point claim to be an avatar of God, who will of course actually be a ravenous beast- and that he will appeal in a VERY BROAD WAY to may of the main religions of the world. I don't happen to believe that a polarizing figure such as a jihadist style Muslim could fill that role. I feel like it will be something that will appeal to East, West and Middle East alike. Something that transcends anything we are currently seeing. Again, that's just my opinion.
No, of course, he won't look like a jihadist. As a condition of his caliphate, for instance, he might promise the world a peaceful Islam, and, also, make a peace treaty with Israel. This is what the Bible implies. It also says that he is lying when he does this, because he breaks the treaty.
While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.1 Thess 5:3
Islam is not just a religion, it is a political movement, a government, and an insistence on its way of life in a great many particulars that are distasteful to the west, [not to mention the convert or die mentality].
The jury is still out for me as to whether the West will adopt its own brand of totalitarian one world gov't. But, I am becoming more and more convinced that end times scripture is all about the Middle East and that country, Israel, and that this man described in Dan 11, and in Isaiah as the 'Assyrian,' will be a Muslim. But, I'll put more evidence on here about that in the days to come.
eaglesway,
In your post#285 you open so many cans of worms. When it's not so late and I'm not so tired, let me get back to you and whoever else reads this... I want the Presence of God manifesting in power so much, sometimes to just sit on His lap, embraced by Him, that I have difficulty continuing in words, however correct. Doctrine will never satisfy hunger for the substance of Spirit. "The blanket is to short to cover and the bed to short to rest on."
Reformer, all tho I get up in arms from time to time, I would much rather spend an hour in His arms than ten days in "enlightening discussion" :o)
The bed is indeed too short to stretch out on and the blankets indeed too short to cover our feet.
May your desire for His presence be manifestly fulfilled in an overflow of grace and peace.
"Oh that I had the wings of a dove, I would fly into His bosom and be at rest."
And he took them in His hands, and He blessed them and He broke them and after the multitude had eaten their fill, there were seven baskets left over.
Come Quickly, Lord Jesus.
Quote from: Molly on September 05, 2012, 05:53:16 AM
The jury is still out for me as to whether the West will adopt its own brand of totalitarian one world gov't. But, I am becoming more and more convinced that end times scripture is all about the Middle East and that country, Israel, and that this man described in Dan 11, and in Isaiah as the 'Assyrian,' will be a Muslim. But, I'll put more evidence on here about that in the days to come.
Dan 8:19-23 makes it very clear that the so-called Anti-Christ arises from inside the environs of Alexander's Greco-Macedonian empire. Verse 22 points out that it will be divided up by Alexander's four Generals Ptolemy took Egypt, Seleucus, took most of the old Persian Empire, Antigonus took Macedonia, & Greece united with the Kingdom of Pergamum in Asia Minor. Verse 23 discusses the rise of the "king of fierce countenance" who arises "in the latter time of their kingdoms". It was Seleucus who took the area of Assyria from which the "Assyrian" arises as discussed in Is 10:5, 10:24, 14:25, 19:23, etc. & Hosea & Micah. Therefore we look for the rise of Anti-christ from inside the environs of one of the divisions of Alexander's Greco-Macedonian empire.
Present day Syria draws its' borders from inside the environs of the old Assyrian empire, hence the name & it later came under control of Alexander's General Seleucus to the immediate north of Israel. It is from this area the King of the North in Dan 11:6 "end of years", launches his attacks on the king of the south which is the old Ptolemaic division of Alexander's empire. Israel is caught in the middle. The old divisions of the ancient Greco-Macedonian empire is at war with itself. Religious intolerance in the "end of years" seems to be an almost certain source of the battles between the Northern & Southern kings.
The best clue with regard to the religious practices of the King of the North is given in Dan 11:38 "In his estate he shall he honor the God of forces and a god whom his fathers knew not..." . The clue here: "...a god whom his fathers knew not..". This terminology has its' source from directly within the Bible, an example is Deut 28:64, and many other places where the God of Israel admonishes them for abandoning the God of their fathers, the three patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. If he is worshipping a "god" that his "fathers" (Abraham Isaac & Jacob) knew not", he must be an Israelite taken to idolatry.
Draw your own conclusions further as to the religious nature of this man's origins, but it is clear he must not be Muslim because has pitted himself against a Muslim nation (Egypt), beats them & is accepted by Jews in Israel as Messiah. He cannot be Muslim for Jews to accept him as Messiah. The reopening of the scroll of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy in Rev 1:10-11 occurs inside seven ecclesias that were once part of Alexander's empire called the Kingdom of Pergamum, from which Pergamos draws it's name and is the seat of Satan. Rev 2:14 points to the context of the religious nature of this ecclesia with the discussion of "children of Israel" forced "to eat things sacrificed unto idols". It appears as if the so-called Anti-Christ has his origins in Pergamos (it is the seat of Satan), it is within an area of Alexander's empire and he is accepted as the substitute Messiah for Jews living in Jerusalem who allow him to create sacrifices in their rebuilt temple after he has beaten the Muslim king of the South (Egypt).
Paul, take a look at this article: This gives a good overview of the Muslim civil war going on in the Middle East.
The Growing Iran-Turkey Rivalry
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Posted GMT 6-27-2012 18:35:39
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In a recent interview with RT (Russian TV) Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, while in Beijing, called on Iran and Turkey to be included in the upcoming international meeting dedicated to ending the Syrian crisis. It is obviously clear to Lavrov, as it is to others, that Iran and Turkey have conflicting interests not only in Syria but elsewhere in the region.
In 2009 Turkey showed support for the regime of Iranian President Ahmadinejad despite the controversial reelection, and in 2010 Turkey voted against sanctions on Iran in the UN Security Council. But, Ankara has recently agreed to deploy a NATO missile early-warning system in south-eastern Turkey, which has infuriated the Islamic Republic of Iran.
The crisis in Syria has helped to expose the growing rivalry between these two nations and it is becoming apparent that whatever "honeymoon" that existed between the two nations in recent years is over. Between the 15th and 20th centuries, the sultans of Ottoman (Turkish) Empire and the shahs of the Persian (Safavid) Empire battled over territory and dominance in the Greater Middle East region. The Turkish-Persian rivalry is, in fact, the oldest power game in the Middle East. It now appears that this historical conflict (with relatively same-sized populations of 80 million) has taken on an added dimension: a clash between the Sunnis and Shias.
The decline of American influence in the Middle East under President Obama has intensified the power struggle between Iran and Turkey with both attempting to fill the vacuum created by the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq. Following the demise of the Ottoman Empire, Ataturk's modern Turkey abandoned the Middle East in favor of the West, and it appeared as if this rivalry was over. Iran's Shah Mohamed Reza also sought to modernize and "westernize" a decaying Iran. Turkey's Prime Minister Erdogan, who seemed to be bringing Ankara closer to Tehran has become increasingly resentful of EU posturing and has turned Turkey's foreign policy trust towards the Middle East. By becoming a Middle Eastern player once again, a resurgent Ankara has emerged as the natural challenger to the other key Middle Eastern actor: nuclear-power and hegemony-seeking Iran.
In the wake of the Iranian Islamic revolution, the Sunni-Shiite conflict intensified and with Iran's attempts to destabilize Sunni Gulf leaders and other pro-Western Arab states, Turkey has emerged as a counterweight to Shiite Iran revolutionary and hegemonic ambitions. The "Arab Spring," which brought the Muslim Brotherhood affiliates in Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya to power, and might do the same in Syria, is also in many ways a Sunni-Muslim revolution, and Turkey's Islamist Prime Minister Erdogan seeks to hitch a ride on it as the champion of Sunni-Islam. What we're seeing is an attempt by both Erdogan and Ahmadinejad to win over the Arab world.
Yahya Rahim Safavi, top military aide to the supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei charged, according to Fars News agency that, "The Americans, Israelis, and some European and Persian Gulf nations, in particular Qatar and Saudi Arabia, have delegated Turkey the task of achieving their goal to weaken or topple Bashar al-Assad's government or make it surrender."
In Syria, a proxy war is being conducted between Iran and Turkey, with Iran arming its Alawite client state headed up by Bashar Assad of Syria, and Turkey aiding the opposition Syrian Free Army, comprised largely of Sunni-Muslim defectors from the Syrian army. Turkey serves as the key regional opponent of the Assad regime while Iran stands with the Assad regime and provides it with funds, arms, and military personal. It is also reasonable to assume that Hezbollah, Iran's Lebanese proxy, has played a supportive role in Assad's bloody crackdown against the largely Sunni-Muslim opposition.
If in Syria the conflicting interests of Tehran and Ankara are more glaring, in Iraq they are no less intense, albeit, through political if not military proxies. Although both Turkey and Iran opposed the Iraq war, they have supported opposing camps in successive Iraqi elections. Iran's dominance in Baghdad with the help of the Shiite-Muslim Nouri al-Maliki is countered by Turkey's ever closer relationship with the Kurdistan Regional Government in Erbil (Northern Iraq).
In the parliamentary elections of 2010, Turkey supported the seemingly secular Sunni dominated Iraqiya party led by former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, while the Islamic Republic of Iran backed the State of Law Coalition, which included Maliki's Islamic Da'wa Party, and other Shiite Islamist groups that came under the umbrella of the National Iraqi Alliance Bloc. Maliki, however, managed to stay Prime Minister despite coming up short by two seats (less than the Iraqiya Bloc) and by including the radical pro-Iranian Shiite Sadrists and the Supreme Iraqi Islamic Council.
The Sunni-Shiite fault lines are clearly visible in Iraq. Baghdad is allied with Iran in support of the Alawite regime of Bashar Assad in Syria, and has blocked the Arab League attempt to impose harsh sanctions against the Assad regime. Maliki has in fact labeled Turkey "a hostile state." Erdogan, for his part, has accused Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki of acting "self-centered" and inciting tensions between Iraq's Shiite majority and the Sunnis and Kurds.
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu inaugurated his policy of "Zero Problems" with Turkey's neighbors. It has led to a short lived rapprochement with Iran and Syria that included a pact to prevent Kurdish demands for cultural and political self-determination.
In Lebanon, another area of contest between Shia and Sunni Islam for dominance, FM Davutoglu had this to say, "Lebanon is like a small Middle East, with many communities like Christian, Sunni, Shia, and Druze. Therefore, the survival of Lebanon as a stable, prosperous state is a reflection, indicator of regional peace." Iran however, has provided its Shiite co-religionists and especially the Hezbollah with major financial and military resources, helping Hezbollah to become the dominant party in Lebanon at the expense of the other communities including the Sunnis, Druse, and Christians.
Iran and Turkey compete for influence in Central Asia and the Caucuses, particularly in the bordering states of Armenia and Azerbaijan. The presence of 20 million ethnic Azeris in Iran, considered Southern Azerbaijan by the Baku (Azerbaijan's capital) government has caused a great deal of friction between Tehran and Baku. Iran has tried to stem secessionist tendencies encouraged by the pro-western Baku government. Since the 1990's, Iran has sided with "infidel" Christian Armenia in its conflict with majority Shiite Muslim Azerbaijan. Turkey on the other hand, has a close cultural and linguistic association with Azerbaijan, and a painful past with Armenia. Turkey has backed Azerbaijan politically, and has strong commercial ties with it.
Turkey's subtle appeals to pan-Turkism in Central Asia, supposedly in Iran's backyard has angered the Iranians who like Turks, seek to be the center and leader of the Muslim world. Both Turkey and Iran are pushing their model of an Islamic republic, and central Asia has become a focal point in this contest.
Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov's attempt to bring Iran and Turkey together on Syria and other issues clashes with the ambitions of the two Middle Eastern behemoths. Iran and Turkey are vying for leadership in the greater Middle East just like in past times, and it is unlikely that their interests will converge. One mustn't forget history -- it tends to repeat itself.
By Joseph Puder
Frontpage Magazine
http://www.aina.org/news/20120627133539.htm
So, if we look at that overview, who is most likely to attack Egypt?
The likely suspects would be Iran, Syria, [Russia or Israel].
If Egypt is the king of the south, my guess is the king of the north will be Syria or Iran, or Syria as proxy for Iran and Russia.
I agree that it looks like Israel will be caught in the middle.
QuoteDan 11:38 "In his estate he shall he honor the God of forces and a god whom his fathers knew not..." . The clue here: "...a god whom his fathers knew not..".
The other clue in this is that the god of forces is allah. Antichrist may be a crypto-Jew but he presents to the world as a Muslim, and since he comes against Egypt, a Shia Muslim--that means he comes out of either Iran or Syria, which makes sense since he is called, 'the Assyrian.'
Yes, Israel will accept the peace treaty which he will then break and invade Israel.
Where do you see the Antichrist is accepted by the Jews in Israel as the Messiah? I don't see that in scripture. What I see is that he compares point for point with the Muslim Mahdi, who is the Muslim Messiah.
Turkey will undoubtedly be a big player, especially if the Ottoman Empire is resurrected. Any caliphate would undoubtedly have its head kaliph in Istanbul, Turkey. But, if that happens, Turkey will no longer be an ally to the West.
I still haven't figured out how your churches might fit into this equation.
JERUSALEM
Reading: Psalm 48 and 122
Jerusalem is looked upon by most people as a holy city. It is certainly a religious centre, and has been for centuries. Three great religious groups; Christians, Jews and Moslems; honour it; yet they all miss the true reasons for its importance. Their interest derives from a sentimental regard for the past, whilst the Bible reveals that the cities real importance still lies in the future.
Not that the past history of Jerusalem can be ignored. It is frequently mentioned in the Bible and many important events recorded in the Bible occurred there. Jerusalem became prominent when David, the most illustrious king of God*s chosen people, Israel, established it as his capital city. In the reign of David's son, Solomon, God declared that He had chosen Jerusalem to place his name there as we read:
"...I have chosen Jerusalem for my Name to be there...." 2 Chronicles 6:6
Israel were the people chosen by God and through them God declared that He would work out His purpose as revealed in the Bible. Jerusalem means 'City of Peace', yet throughout it's history it has experienced more war than peace. The city that is destined to be the capitol of the Kingdom of God was to suffer great calamity because of the disobedience of Israel. Jesus spoke of Jerusalem saying:
'O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee ...... Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'' Luke 13:34-35
Because the Israelites turned away from God they were to be scattered among the nations. Their kingdom was destroyed when the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem and carried the Jews into captivity in the days of king Zedekiah. God revealed through the prophet Ezekiel that this was a punishment to the nation for its disobedience to Him, but the kingdom was to be overturned only until one came who had the right to rule over it.
O profane and wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Take off the turban, remove the crown....... A ruin! A ruin! I will make it a ruin! It will not be restored until he comes to whom it rightfully belongs; to him I will give it.' Ezekiel 21:25-27
The one who has the right to the throne of the kingdom of Israel is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is a direct descendant of David and therefore rightful heir to his throne. Furthermore, the angel promised Mary, his mother, prior to his birth:
'the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David*. Luke 1:32
Jesus has never yet sat upon the throne of David, thus the fulfillment of this promise must still lie in the future. This means that the ancient kingdom of Israel, with its capital and throne in Jerusalem, must be restored.
This is exactly what the apostles of Jesus believed and looked for. Shortly after his resurrection they asked Jesus:
'Wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?* Acts 1:16
However Jesus was taken up into heaven, but immediately two angels stood by them and gave them the assurance that Jesus would return again, saying:
'Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.' Acts 1:11
So we are clearly shown that Jesus will return to the earth. However Jerusalem was to be in Gentile hands until the time came for Jesus to return. Jesus himself prophesied saying:
'Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles [non Jews] until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.' Luke 21:24
Note the word 'until', this treading down of Jerusalem was not to last forever and the Jews will completely posses the city once again. Throughout the last century we have seen Jews going back to Israel in increasing numbers. In 1844 there were only 7,120 Jews in Jerusalem, in 1967 there were 195,700 and now Jerusalem is back in Jewish hands. Yet not entirely so for the centuries old Moslem mosque still stands on the temple site. Jerusalem must go through a time of trouble once again before true and lasting peace will come. Jerusalem will be the centre of an international crisis:
'For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.' Zechariah 14:2
It is at this time that salvation will come and Jerusalem will be saved:
'Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east,' Zechariah 14:3-4
It is at this time that Jesus will restore the kingdom to Israel and sit upon David*s throne in Jerusalem. From Jerusalem, Jesus will reign over all the earth: 'The Lord shall be King over all the earth' Zechariah 14:9 and 'out of Zion shall go forth the law and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem'. Isaiah 2:3
That this is a true interpretation of what Scripture teaches is proved by many references in the prophetic Scriptures concerning this famous city. Jesus himself said 'Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God*s throne: nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.* Matt 5:34-35
In view of what has already been discussed, it is obvious that the great king is Jesus himself. The Psalmist speaks of the future glory of Jerusalem saying:
'The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. Glorious things are spoken of thee, city of God'. Psalm 87:2-3
and
'Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is Mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King*. Psalm 48:2
The prophets of Israel, when referring to the glorious future which God has in store for the earth, speak of the important position which Jerusalem will occupy, as the following passage shows:
'For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy'. Isaiah 65:17-18
It is evident from the context of this passage that the expression 'a new heaven and a new earth* is used metaphorically to designate the order of things to be established in the Kingdom of God, in the same way as the apostle Peter uses the expression: 'Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness' 2Peter 3:13
Jeremiah, speaking of this same time declares:
'At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord: and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem; neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart*,* Jeremiah 3:17
Other prophets speaking of Jerusalem write:
'Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever'. Micah 4:7
'So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God, dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain; then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more ' Joel 3:17
Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in Mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously*. Isaiah 24:23
'And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles*. Zechariah 14:16
All these passages clearly indicate that Jerusalem is to be the capital, the seat of government and the centre of worship, when the kingdom of God is set up on the earth. Jerusalem is more than a city of sentimental associations whose future is of a mystical nature. It has a very real and glorious future:
'Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come. For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof*. Psalm 102:13-14
Jerusalem is also to be the centre for worship, the place where all peoples will come to seek and worship God. For this reason, all those who hold the true Bible hope will echo the words of the Psalmist:
'Pray for the peace of Jerusalem; they shall prosper that love thee. Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces*. Psalm 122:6-7
Summary
For many centuries Jerusalem has been trodden down by other nations. This situation came about because of the disobedience of God's people, Israel. God punished His people yet foretold of the time when He would restore them once again. The fact that Israel is once again back in their own land and Jerusalem is also in Israeli hands is a sign that Jesus will soon return to set up the Kingdom of God. Jesus will return in power and great glory, the nations will resist Jesus, but in vain. They will be overcome and the law will go forth from Jerusalem, then at last Jerusalem will indeed be the 'City of Peace', a peace then will extend to fill the whole world. A true and lasting peace that the world has never known before.
http://www.biblelight.org/bs19.htm
Quote from: Molly on September 05, 2012, 06:23:53 PM
So, if we look at that overview, who is most likely to attack Egypt?
The likely suspects would be Iran, Syria, [Russia or Israel].
If Egypt is the king of the south, my guess is the king of the north will be Syria or Iran, or Syria as proxy for Iran and Russia.
I agree that it looks like Israel will be caught in the middle.
QuoteDan 11:38 "In his estate he shall he honor the God of forces and a god whom his fathers knew not..." . The clue here: "...a god whom his fathers knew not..".
The other clue in this is that the god of forces is allah. Antichrist may be a crypto-Jew but he presents to the world as a Muslim, and since he comes against Egypt, a Shia Muslim--that means he comes out of either Iran or Syria, which makes sense since he is called, 'the Assyrian.'
Yes, Israel will accept the peace treaty which he will then break and invade Israel.
Where do you see the Antichrist is accepted by the Jews in Israel as the Messiah? I don't see that in scripture. What I see is that he compares point for point with the Muslim Mahdi, who is the Muslim Messiah.
Turkey will undoubtedly be a big player, especially if the Ottoman Empire is resurrected. Any caliphate would undoubtedly have its head kaliph in Istanbul, Turkey. But, if that happens, Turkey will no longer be an ally to the West.
I still haven't figured out how your churches might fit into this equation.
Antichrist is derived from the Greek word #500 in Strong's Conc. The Greek word for
anti is #473 which in various applications approximates the English word
substitute, instead, contrast and various other applications intended to draw a contrast between two subjects. The two subjects in this case being the real Christ & a false Christ. We understand Christ comes as the long awaited Messiah to Israel, therefore the Antichrist must present himself as Messiah to the Jews but he is in fact a substitute Messiah falsely presenting himself as the true Messiah. He has access to the Holy of Holies in the temple, Dan 11:31 & 11:45 where he tabernacles in a palace in the glorious holy mountain.
Throughout Dan 11 in verses 24, 37 & 38 the endtime king of the north is presented with ancestry terminology "fathers' fathers" which I have previously pointed out in Deut 28:64 being in reference to one of Jewish ancestry. Therefore he must not be Muslim.
I'm being careful to avoid accounts about what Muslims have to say about their Mahdi, their 12th Mahdi is a pipe dream probably designed by Satan to throw off endtime Muslim populations of the true origin of the King of the North who subdues Egypt & in so doing appears to have saved Israel from certain destruction by neighboring Muslim populations in Egypt. AntiChrist in effect becomes the Savior of the Israeli nation, they accept him as Messiah, allow him access to their holy temple as stated in Dan 11:45.
I don't have any "churches" in this equation. The 7 ecclesias of Revelation are Jewish synagogues situated in those seven cities of present-day Turkey. None of the messages of Rev 1:10-11 is sent to any Christian churches. Today there are no synagogues there, that is why the present make-up of the political affairs in Turkey must change dramatically, to allow for a friendly environment for the construction of those Jewish congregations in those synagogues.
Isaiah 19 - The Burden Against Egypt
A. God strikes Egypt.
1. (1-4) The Lord strikes Egypt by giving them over to civil war and submission to a cruel master.
The burden against Egypt. Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; the idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst. "I will set Egyptians against Egyptians; everyone will fight against his brother, and everyone against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom. The spirit of Egypt will fail in its midst; I will destroy their counsel, and they will consult the idols and the charmers, the mediums and the sorcerers. And the Egyptians I will give into the hand of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them," says the Lord, the Lord of hosts.
a. The Lord rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt: Egypt was one of the great powers of the ancient world, and being situated immediately to the south of Israel, it was an empire that Israel constantly had to reckon with. Many times Egypt had been the enemy of Israel, at times Egypt had been a refuge for Israel, and sometimes Egypt offered a tempting but ungodly alliance to Israel. In this chapter, the Lord presents both a prophecy against and for Egypt.
b. The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence: Egypt was known for its worship of many, many different gods. Through His hand of judgment, the Lord will "knock over" these many different gods.
i. "In Isaiah's day there was no other nation on earth that was so much in the grip of superstition and filthy idolatry as Egypt. Apes, cats, frogs, crocodiles, lizards - everything was venerated by them." (Bultema)
ii. At the time of the Exodus, when the Pharaoh of Egypt would not release the children of Israel from their captivity, the Lord also made the idols of Egypt to totter at His presence. He directed each of the plagues against a particular idol of Egypt. He knocked over the god Khnum, the guardian of the Nile, the god Hapi, the spirit of the Nile, and the god Osiris (who had the Nile as his bloodstream), when the waters were turned to blood. He knocked over the goddess Heqt, the frog-goddess of fertility, with the plague of frogs. He knocked over the goddess Hathor, a cow-like mother goddess, with the plague on livestock. He knocked over the god Imhotep, the god of medicine, with the plague of boils. He knocked over the god Nut, the sky goddess, with the plague of hail. He knocked over the whole system of Egyptian worship of their gods with loathsome lice and swarms of insects. He knocked over the god Seth, thought to be the protector of crops, with the plague of locusts. He knocked over the god Ra, thought to be the sun god, with the plague of darkness. He knocked over Osiris, the Egyptian god thought to be the giver of life, and the supposed deity of Pharaoh himself, with the plague against the firstborn. God made all the idols of Egypt to totter at His presence before, and Isaiah tells us He will do it again!
c. I will set Egyptians against Egyptians: Isaiah prophesies a coming civil war in Egypt, which was indirectly the hand of God's judgment against them. "Not many years after this time it was divided into twelve several kingdoms, between whom there were many and cruel wars, as is related by the historians of those times." (Poole)
d. I will destroy their counsel, and they will consult the idols and the charmers: When a nation is under the judgment of God, He often seems to "remove" sound counsel and wisdom from their leaders, and they turn to vain, pagan things for wisdom instead (idols and the charmers).
i. "Egypt was renowned for her class of wise men (1 Kings 4:30), but they would not be able to cope with this judgment from the Lord." (Wolf)
e. The Egyptians I will give into the hand of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them: God may judge a nation through their leadership in two ways. First, by removing competent leadership (I will destroy their counsel). Second, by giving them cruel and oppressive rulers. This is a curse and a judgment to any people!
2. (5-10) The Lord strikes Egypt by drying up the Nile, thus wrecking their economy.
The waters will fail from the sea, and the river will be wasted and dried up. The rivers will turn foul; the brooks of defense will be emptied and dried up; the reeds and rushes will wither. The papyrus reeds by the River, by the mouth of the River, and everything sown by the River, will wither, be driven away, and be no more. The fishermen also will mourn; all those will lament who cast hooks into the River, and they will languish who spread nets on the waters. Moreover those who work in fine flax and those who weave fine fabric will be ashamed; and its foundations will be broken. All who make wages will be troubled of soul.
a. The river will be wasted and dried up: The Nile River was the key to Egypt's agriculture and economy. For it to suffer a severe drought or lowering would have a devastating effect on the lives of Egyptians. God promises this will happen as a judgment against Egypt.
b. Therefore, the workers cry out: the fishermen also will mourn . . . they will languish who spread nets on the waters . . . those who weave fine fabric will be ashamed . . . all who make wages will be troubled of soul.
3. (11-15) The Lord strikes Egypt by sending them with foolish counsel.
Surely the princes of Zoan are fools; Pharaoh's wise counselors give foolish counsel. How do you say to Pharaoh, "I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings?" Where are they? Where are your wise men? Let them tell you now, and let them know what the Lord of hosts has purposed against Egypt. The princes of Zoan have become fools; the princes of Noph are deceived; they have also deluded Egypt, those who are the mainstay of its tribes. The Lord has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst; and they have caused Egypt to err in all her work, as a drunken man staggers in his vomit. Neither will there be any work for Egypt, which the head or tail, palm branch or bulrush, may do.
a. Surely the princes of Zoan are fools; Pharaoh's wise counselors give foolish counsel: As the Lord strikes Egypt, not only does He give them cruel rulers, but He also gives those cruel rulers foolish counsel.
b. Where are your wise men? Let them tell you now, and let them know what the Lord of hosts has purposed against Egypt: Here, the Lord reminds us of what true wisdom is. It is knowing what the Lord of hosts has purposed. True wisdom isn't knowing all kind of facts and plans and strategies. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. (Proverbs 9:10).
4. (16-17) When God strikes Egypt, there will be terror among the people.
In that day Egypt will be like women, and will be afraid and fear because of the waving of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which He waves over it. And the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt; everyone who makes mention of it will be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the Lord of hosts which He has determined against it.
a. Because of the waving of the hand of the Lord of hosts: All the Lord will need to do is to wave His hand, and the people of Egypt will respond in terror, they will be afraid and fear.
b. The land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt: This is a switch! For thousands of years, the land of Judah lay submissively in the shadow of the great Egyptian Empire. The Lord prophesies a day when Judah will be more mighty than Egypt, and the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt. Of course, this is fulfilled today, when Israel has military superiority over Egypt.
B. God saves Egypt
1. (18-22) Egypt turns to the Lord.
In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the Lord of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction. In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its border. And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the Lord because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them. Then the Lord will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering; yes, they will make a vow to the Lord and perform it. And the Lord will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the Lord, and He will be entreated by them and heal them.
a. Five cities in the land of Egypt will become more identified with the Lord than with Egypt. A better translation of the phrase City of Destruction may be, City of the Sun, which was a well known Egyptian city known as Heliopolis.
b. Egypt will worship the Lord, with an altar to the Lord, and will memorialize God's great works with a pillar to the Lord. When Egypt is brought under this oppression, they will cry to the Lord because of the oppressors, and then He will send them a Savior and a Mighty one, and He will deliver them.
i. "In the time of the Maccabees, the high priest Onias IV was forced to flee to Egypt, and there he built a temple that was similar to the one in Jerusalem. Some commentators relate the 'altar' of verse 19 to this structure." (Wolf) This may relate to the City of the Sun prophecy, because the temple Onias IV built was in the province of Heliopolis.
ii. He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One: "The text says the Savior is a great one. Oh! I wanted a great Savior. A little Savior would not have answered my turn, for great sin wanted a great atonement, and my hard heart wanted great grace to soften it down." (Spurgeon)
c. The Egyptians will know the Lord in that day: There did come to be a widespread knowledge of the Lord in Egypt. In the days of Jesus, more than a million Jews lived in Egypt. In the early days of Christianity, there was a strong, vital church in Egypt for more than 600 years.
i. This prophecy may have additional fulfillment during the Millennium, but it certainly has been fulfilled in history. In the fourth century, the great theologian Athanasius, wrote this from Egypt: "The thing is happening before our very eyes, here in Egypt; and thereby another prophecy is fulfilled, for at no other time have the Egyptians ceased from their false worship save when the Lord of all, riding as on a cloud, came down here in the body and brought the error of idols to nothing and won over everybody to Himself and through Himself to the Father." (From On the Incarnation, cited by Grogan)
ii. The altar and sacrifice described most likely are fulfilled during the Millennium, when sacrifice will be allowed as a memorial of Jesus' great work, but never as atonement. "For just as restored Israel will bring blood sacrifices unto the Lord to keep in remembrance of the all-sufficient blood sacrifice of Christ, so this may also take place in Egypt on that memorable day." (Bultema)
d. He will strike and heal it: Whatever judgment God allowed, His desire was that people would repent and return to Him so they could be healed.
2. (23-25) An amazing peace between three formerly hostile enemies.
In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians. In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria; a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance."
a. Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria: God promises the day will come when there will be peace between Israel, Egypt, and Assyria. There will be trade and travel between the three nations (a highway from Egypt to Assyria). In that day, the Lord will bless all three nations.
b. Blessed is Egypt, My people, and Assyria, the work of My hands, and Israel is My inheritance: What an amazing work of redemption! This shows that God's salvation will extend to the nations, and He will call forth His own even from Egypt and Assyria, not only from Israel.
i. It was powerful to say this of Egypt; it was almost unbelievable to say it about Assyria, the nation Jonah hated so much. "In Isaiah's day, Assyria was the one power feared by every little nation in the Fertile Crescent. The calculated brutality of the Assyrians probably made them more of an object of general hatred than any other nation of antiquity. The Egyptians, Babylonians, and Persians were all capable of inhuman acts, but the Assyrian record for callous cruelty is difficult to parallel." (Grogan)
ii. "Who, standing amid the terrors of the plagues, could ever have supposed that Egypt would be addressed as 'my people'? Who could have thought that Assyria, the tyrant persecutor, would ever be called 'the work of my hands'? Yet these are the trophies and triumphs of divine grace." (Meyer)
iii. "But Israel is always his inheritance. There he finds rest and home, for the Lord's portion is his people. Oh to know the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints!" (Meyer) We are also the Lord's inheritance; in Ephesians 1:18, Paul prayed that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints. God's people are His riches and inheritance and glory!
c. From this passage regarding the conversion of Egypt, Spurgeon draws these points: 1. God's grace often comes to the very worst of men. 2. God's grace sends a Savior. 3. Grace changes men's language. 4. God's grace sets men on holy service. 5. God's grace teaches men to pray. 6. God's grace instructs men. 7. Grace makes even trouble a blessing to a man. 8. God's grace changes the relations of men to each other. 9. God's grace makes men to be blessed, and to be a blessing to others. (The Fruits of Grace)
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/2319.htm
Quote from: PaulAntichrist is derived from the Greek word #500 in Strong's Conc. The Greek word for anti is #473 which in various applications approximates the English word substitute, instead, contrast and various other applications intended to draw a contrast between two subjects.
The Bible gives a very specific definitinon for antichrist.
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
--1 John 2:22
This makes Islam itself an antichrist religion.
1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
2 John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist
QuoteHe has access to the Holy of Holies in the temple, Dan 11:31 & 11:45 where he tabernacles in a palace in the glorious holy mountain.
He has access to Jerusalem because he marches into it with armies, and takes the city by force, also known as the abomination that causes desolation.
Not because the Jews think he is the Messiah. The people being judged at the end time are the Muslims and the Jews.
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 12:24:27 AM
Quote from: PaulAntichrist is derived from the Greek word #500 in Strong's Conc. The Greek word for anti is #473 which in various applications approximates the English word substitute, instead, contrast and various other applications intended to draw a contrast between two subjects.
The Bible gives a very specific definitinon for antichrist.
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
--1 John 2:22
This makes Islam itself an antichrist religion.
1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
2 John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist
QuoteHe has access to the Holy of Holies in the temple, Dan 11:31 & 11:45 where he tabernacles in a palace in the glorious holy mountain.
He has access to Jerusalem because he marches into it with armies, and takes the city by force, also known as the abomination that causes desolation.
Not because the Jews think he is the Messiah. The people being judged at the end time are the Muslims and the Jews.
What makes you think the Bible is making a case for a Muslim Anti-Christ? Forget what the Koran states, quotes from the Koran are not found in the Bible, and their 12th Mahdi is nothing but a pipedream, this being the case the endtime king of the North must be something else, but can't be Muslim or the Jews wouldn't allow him to tabernacle in the holy mountain of their Holy of Holies during the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week.
And sure the king of the North brings armies with him, he brings them into the city to prevent the Jewish population from being decimated by Egyptian armies of the king of the South, and at the moment this happens Israel accepts him as Messiah and allows him to sit inside their temple as Savior & Messiah. He doesn't enter the rebuilt Jewish temple by an act of warfare, he does it by presenting himself as their Messiah, clinging to them with "flatteries" as is explained in Dan 11:32-34. What are these "flatteries"? "See what I saved you from, now make me your God", or some such line of bohunk.
After The king of the North has fooled Israel into thinking he is their Messiah, he turns on them after the middle of the 70th week now using his armies to subjugate the population after previously using them to prevent Israel's subjugation to the Muslim king of the South. Do you see it here? Already Israel had been struggling to prevent a Muslim from the south (Egypt) from overrunning their country which is why they turned to the king of the North to become their protector, and he is their protector
precisely because he is not a Muslim.
Quote from: Paul
What makes you think the Bible is making a case for a Muslim Anti-Christ?
Because when we compare the eschatalogical writings about the Muslim Mahdi and the Antichrist figure in the Bible, we see a lot of similarities. You will have to take my word for the description of the Mahdi because I won't quote from Muslim sources here.
Both are called the deceiver. 2John 1:7
Both are going to do signs and wonders 2 Thess 2:9,10, Mat 24:24
Both attempt to deceive Christians and Jews Mat 24:24, Mat 24:3,4, Mat 24:11, 2 Thess 2:1-3
Both claim to be Messiah Mat 24:24,25,
The Empire of the antichrist is an Empire that has suffered a head wound Rev 13:2-4
Both work false miracles 2 Thess 2:8,9
Both give away wealth
Both will ride a white horse Rev 6:2
Both attempt to change set times and law [Sharia, Constitution of the Caliphate]Dan 7:25
Both deny women's rights Dan 11:37,
Both rule over ten entities Rev 17, 12-13 [Plan for return of Caliphate, ten member council]
Both are the source of death and war Heb 2:4, Rev 9:11,
Both use military force Rev 13:4, Dan 7:23,
Both honor their god with gold and silver Dan 11:38
Both honor a god of war and advance his glory through war Dan 11:39, Hab 1:11, Hab 2:3,4
Both enter in a 7 year peace treaty Dan 9:27
Both deceive and destroy by peace Dan 8:25
Both break treaties after 3.5 years Dan 9:27, Isa 10:20,21
Both love war for booty: Isa 59:2-8, Prov 1:11-16, Dan 11:24, Eze 38:12, Isa 10:5-7
Both desire world domination Rev 13:7, Micah 5, Rev 13:16, Rev 13:7,
Both lead a Turkish-Iranian invasion of Jerusalem Zech 9:13Eze 38, Eze 39
Both exalted as god, Isa 14:14, 2Thess 2:4,
Both are beings of light, Luke 10:18, 2Cor 11:14, Rev 8:10
Both are pride filled Isa 10:12, Eze 28:2,
Both are Lords of this world and the underworld John 12:31, 2Cor 4:4,
Both are called the son of the dawn Isa 14:12,
Both are afflictersDan 9:27
Both are Lord of demons Mat 12:24, Eph 6:12
"
Both desire Israel's destruction Dan 7:21 Rev 13:7 Re 11:7 Dan 11:37
Both occupy the Temple mount. 2 Thess 2:4,
Quote from: PaulAfter The king of the North has fooled Israel into thinking he is their Messiah, he turns on them after the middle of the 70th week now using his armies to subjugate the population after previously using them to prevent Israel's subjugation to the Muslim king of the South. Do you see it here? Already Israel had been struggling to prevent a Muslim from the south (Egypt) from overrunning their country which is why they turned to the king of the North to become their protector, and he is their protector precisely because he is not a Muslim.
I think we have to be realistic about this. Israel is surrounded by a sea of Muslims. If they are going to get any help in the region, it will be from a Muslim country. It will have to be a Muslim that makes a peace treaty with them by definition, because it is the Muslims that they are at war with.
We do see these things unfolding before our eyes. When God talks about the 'nations' coming against Israel, he is talking about the Muslim nations, otherwise known as the Gentiles, not about us because we are spiritual Israel, we are not the heathen any more. The conspiracy of nations forming against Israel in Psalm 83 are all Muslim nations. When God says all those not written in the book of life will wonder/marvel at the beast that comes back to life [the Ottoman Empire] he isn't talking about atheists, he's talking about Muslims.
Psalm 2 is talking about the Muslim nations who do not believe in the Son of God.
2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
--Psalm 2
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 04:27:33 AM
I think we have to be realistic about this. Israel is surrounded by a sea of Muslims. If they are going to get any help in the region, it will be from a Muslim country. It will have to be a Muslim that makes a peace treaty with them by definition, because it is the Muslims that they are at war with.
We do see these things unfolding before our eyes.
What we need is to be Biblical not "realistic". The things we see unfolding before our eyes today is only good for so long as the day itself is long, in the middle east the unfolding of events can take a dramatic change in as little as a few days.
I've shown you how to trace the ancestry of the Northern King, it proves he is not Muslim, you reject it because for some reason you want him to be Muslim, I guess that is because that is the way you see the events of the present day news cycle unfolding.
Every generation in the Christian Church that has come & gone, has presumed the end of the age would be in their generation & they would be the generation to see the 2nd coming of Christ, even the Apostles may have thought that. The eschatological landscape is littered with the failed predictions of the coming of Christ & who the so-called Anti-Christ will be, all this litter because every generation wants Christ to come in their lifetime so they won't need to plan for their end of life funeral. I'm more realistic, I look at the failed predictions of the past & examine the key components of the reasons for them.
The reason the Christian Church fails to comprehend the prophecies of Daniel & Revelation are twofold: 1- We are not close enough to that time to accurately understand the events as they will unfold 2- The prophecies are not written to the Christian Church, they are written to the 7 Jewish ecclesias in presnt day Turkey. These two reasons are why every generation to date has failed to see their viewpoint of prophetic events never come to fruition. It appears to me that there is at least another 100 years to go, maybe more.
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Luke 21:20
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28
So this is written to the Christians about the return of Jesus. Look up!
And, certainly Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies of Muslims and Crusaders and 20th Century Christians, and Jesus didn't return, because a condition of his return is that the city is occupied with Jews when this happens. The next time we see Jerusalem surrounded by hostile armies, it will be occupied by Jews. Christ will return to save the Jews from these armies. And, you can bet that day is near and those armies will be Muslim.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
--Luke 21
The generation that sees these things start to come to pass will be the generation that sees it all fulfilled because it will all happen within a generation.
Two conditions which must be met that were not met in 70 ad--the fulfillment of the Gentiles AND Jerusalem and Judah occupied by Jews. Only one of those conditions was met in 70ad.
Quote from: Paul L on September 05, 2012, 05:12:53 PM
Draw your own conclusions further as to the religious nature of this man's origins, but it is clear he must not be Muslim because has pitted himself against a Muslim nation (Egypt), beats them & is accepted by Jews in Israel as Messiah. He cannot be Muslim for Jews to accept him as Messiah. The reopening of the scroll of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy in Rev 1:10-11 occurs inside seven ecclesias that were once part of Alexander's empire called the Kingdom of Pergamum, from which Pergamos draws it's name and is the seat of Satan. Rev 2:14 points to the context of the religious nature of this ecclesia with the discussion of "children of Israel" forced "to eat things sacrificed unto idols". It appears as if the so-called Anti-Christ has his origins in Pergamos (it is the seat of Satan), it is within an area of Alexander's empire and he is accepted as the substitute Messiah for Jews living in Jerusalem who allow him to create sacrifices in their rebuilt temple after he has beaten the Muslim king of the South (Egypt).
Above I've emboldened your phrase concerning the antichrist being: "accepted by Jews in Israel as Messiah." Upon this you continue to add another assumption: "He cannot be Muslim for Jews to accept him as Messiah." I think the idea the antichrist will be accepted by the Jews is abased on the following statement of Jesus: "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (John 5:
43,KJV)
Here is another example of things that haven't even slowed down a number of people with whom I've shared knowledge concerning. Before setting a fulfillment of prophecy future to our time now it should be searched out if it has been fulfilled somewhere in the past. Fleeing for protection to Petra, which happened in the days Rome attacked Jerusalem, a friend of mine ignores, believing it is yet in our future again, because Jesus says, "Many first shall be last..." (Mt 19
30 Mk 10
31.)
Jesus statement above was fulfilled by Simon bar Kochba. Nine months before the destruction of Jerusalem the Sanhedrin officially recognized Simon bar Kochba as the promised Messiah. The Sanhedrin also struck coins with his likeness that had written on them that he was the Messiah. More recent sources say it happened around 120 A.D. which change has possibly been done to assuage Jewish embarrassment. (I don't use B.C.E. and C.E. either. It is obvious error and bigotry in the light of 2 thousand years of C.R. [Common Reference.] )
I don't study this topic enough to deal with many things that are said. I doubt I would have the time and stamina to answer very many issues even if I had the knowledge. But I do have adequate knowledge to recognize most of the main assumptions of dipsinsational eschatology are irretrievably unbiblical. That is, there is no Biblical quote directly stating in the same words what The Rapture Doctrine states. The one exception to the best of my knowledge exists only in English translation. "...in a moment" (1 Co 15
52) was the first point seized upon by my opponent in an 8 point list of major components of Rapture deception I previously posted in this thread. This indicates to me there is some glimmer of recognition of what I'm talking about.
How hard is it to understand that interpretations and inferences are not the same as direct quotes? As A. E. Knoch commended, "Confine our confession of faith to the actual words God chose to make His revelation known." As a conscientious Christian I don't have to believe doctrines that don't conform to this rule. I previously commended the use of such books as (J., or,) D. Barton-Payne's
Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy to discover at least some of what has been fulfilled. Why keep riffin' on what a community of liars keeps repeating?
There are many books, even excellent free material that are more advanced in understanding. Bill Britton is one of the best for dipsinsationalists, Richard Eby http://sigler.org/eby/ (http://sigler.org/eby/) or Dr. Stephen E. Jones's
The Laws of the Second Coming and other titles http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/ (http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/) to just name three. The links were posted earlier on this thread. Until you examine them you just don't know, do you? What does it mean to believe a lie?
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 06:54:40 AM
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Luke 21:20
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28
So this is written to the Christians about the return of Jesus. Look up!
And, certainly Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies of Muslims and Crusaders and 20th Century Christians, and Jesus didn't return, because a condition of his return is that the city is occupied with Jews when this happens. The next time we see Jerusalem surrounded by hostile armies, it will be occupied by Jews. Christ will return to save the Jews from these armies. And, you can bet that day is near and those armies will be Muslim.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
--Luke 21
The generation that sees these things start to come to pass will be the generation that sees it all fulfilled because it will all happen within a generation.
Two conditions which must be met that were not met in 70 ad--the fulfillment of the Gentiles AND Jerusalem and Judah occupied by Jews. Only one of those conditions was met in 70ad.
It was the sign that the Son of Man was present in the heavens, having received a kingdom from His Father. If the destruction of Jerusalem had not of happened Jesus would have been a liar, a false prophet, a false Messiah. That it did means He is enthroned. Scripture did not say the sign was in the heavens, as a recent translation (?) has stated. Scripture also did not say Jerusalem surrounded with armies, "the abomination of desolation," was the sign of the coming (again, or a second time) of Jesus. The word
parousia means, "to be, to be present," rather than "coming." Perhaps it could be sometimes said, "coming to be present;" but, that blurs it a bit. The one like unto the son of man in Daniel, Who goes up to the one on the throne to recieve a kingdom is what this in the gospels refers. Hence, "Goes to be present" would be more appropriate. This displays "coming" or "going" hides more than reveals "the presence."
Quote from: reFORMer on September 06, 2012, 08:40:18 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 06:54:40 AM
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Luke 21:20
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28
So this is written to the Christians about the return of Jesus. Look up!
And, certainly Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies of Muslims and Crusaders and 20th Century Christians, and Jesus didn't return, because a condition of his return is that the city is occupied with Jews when this happens. The next time we see Jerusalem surrounded by hostile armies, it will be occupied by Jews. Christ will return to save the Jews from these armies. And, you can bet that day is near and those armies will be Muslim.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
--Luke 21
The generation that sees these things start to come to pass will be the generation that sees it all fulfilled because it will all happen within a generation.
Two conditions which must be met that were not met in 70 ad--the fulfillment of the Gentiles AND Jerusalem and Judah occupied by Jews. Only one of those conditions was met in 70ad.
It was the sign that the Son of Man was present in the heavens, having received a kingdom from His Father. If the destruction of Jerusalem had not of happened Jesus would have been a liar, a false prophet, a false cMessiah. That it did means He is enthroned. Scripture did not say the sign was in the heavens, as a recent translation (?) has stated. Scripture also did not say Jerusalem surrounded with armies, "the abomination of desolation," was the sign of the coming (again, or a second time) of Jesus.
Luke 21:20 most certainly does say Jerusalem surrounded by armies means its desolation is near. In Dan 9:27 the Hebrew is referring to armies that will cause the desolation. The 'abomination of desolation" is a foreign army that invades Jerusalem.
As far as looking up in 70 ad, what would they see? Nothing. Just like if I looked up right now. Nothing. To say otherwise is really getting a bit too esoteric. This Look up passage refers to the Son of Man coming in clouds spoken of in Luke 21:27, the sentence just before the Look up sentence.
Nobody saw this in 70 ad because the conditions were not met for the return of Christ, namely the fulfillment of the Gentiles, after which, as Paul tells us, the Jews will be saved by the appearance of Christ himself.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
--Luke 21
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
--1 Thess 4
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 09:09:02 AMNobody saw this in 70 ad because the conditions were not met for the return of Christ, namely the fulfillment of the Gentiles, after which, as Paul tells us, the Jews will be saved by the appearance of Christ himself.
Is it different for anybody else.
Only, ONLY, Jews will be saved. Ever. Isn't that exactly what the the whole OT and NT is about?
Israel and Judah. Two sticks. Two flocks. etc etc
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 06:54:40 AM
And, certainly Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies of Muslims and Crusaders and 20th Century Christians, and Jesus didn't return, because a condition of his return is that the city is occupied with Jews when this happens. The next time we see Jerusalem surrounded by hostile armies, it will be occupied by Jews. Christ will return to save the Jews from these armies. And, you can bet that day is near and those armies will be Muslim.
And so I'll ask you again: What is your Biblical evidence those armies will be Muslim? And that the so-called Anti-Christ will also be? If you point to the present day news cycle, and this time next year you see most of Lebanon in Israeli hands, and the year after that even more Syrian real estate in Israeli hands than they already have today, what will your position be?
I'll point out something else that you may want to consider about whether you will even want to be living in this world as we get closer to fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. The entire world will be in so much turmoil long before the 70th week starts that all countries in the world will be living with severely depressed economies because their political leadership has become so morally corrupt, this condition will lead to food shortages everywhere long before the 70th week begins and warfare throughout the world will be mindboggling.
I don't want to see my family relatives live a day to day subsistence lifestyle, because I knowthere will be those who will look back & see my picture in their family albums who will be reminiscing for the good old days when I was able to own a nice piece of property but they will be denied that privilege.
The world that is going to exist just before the rapture of the Christian church will be very unlike what you see today, there will be almost no freedoms of any kind, debasement of currencies will be so bad even payments in gold & silver will be almost worthless. In short, you really don't want to be in the generation that sees the rapture of the Body of Christ as spoken of by the Apostle Paul, even many within Christ's own Body may wished they had died a generation before, that's how miserable the world will become.
As for me, I'm giving God thanks for allowing me to live in a generation whereby I'm not living a day to day subsistence wondering when I will eat my next meal or if I can fill up my gas tank & take a pleasant drive through the hills & mountains where I live.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2012, 12:36:29 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 09:09:02 AMNobody saw this in 70 ad because the conditions were not met for the return of Christ, namely the fulfillment of the Gentiles, after which, as Paul tells us, the Jews will be saved by the appearance of Christ himself.
Is it different for anybody else.
Only, ONLY, Jews will be saved. Ever. Isn't that exactly what the the whole OT and NT is about?
Israel and Judah. Two sticks. Two flocks. etc etc
And, their companions. Story of Ruth, remember?
The other 11 tribes aren't 'Jews.'
Good thing we are 'no longer a Christian country.'
:umnick:
Wednesday, 05 September 2012 11:50
Obama Prepares Huge Bailout for Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt
Written by Alex Newman
The Obama administration is close to finalizing a massive $1-billion bailout for the increasingly totalitarian Muslim Brotherhood regime ruling over Egypt, according to U.S. government officials cited in news reports. The move is already drawing fierce criticism from opponents arguing that bailing out the new Islamist ruler, who is already working to bolster Egyptian ties with the communist Chinese dictatorship while becoming increasingly despotic at home, would be a mistake on multiple levels.
In addition to forgiving the $1 billion in Egyptian government debt, almost a third of its total burden, the administration is also working with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) — largely funded by American taxpayers — to secure a $5-billion loan for the regime. On top of that, U.S. officials are in the process of creating multiple funds and programs worth almost $500 million to help politically connected U.S. and Egyptian businesses.
http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/12720-obama-prepares-huge-bailout-for-muslim-brotherhood-in-egypt
Quote from: PaulAnd so I'll ask you again: What is your Biblical evidence those armies will be Muslim?
guessing, as all our predecessors. But, God has placed watchmen on the wall who are obligated to announce what they see. In past times, they thought others might be the antichrist, such as the Catholic church of the Inquisition. Were they wrong that this was an antichrist spirit? But, there is a man indwelt by Satan specifically cited in the scriptures who will usher in the end. And, his description just happens to line up in the most specific ways, including a 7 year peace treaty which is broken half way through, with the Muslim Mahdi. And, the country of Israel just happens to be surrounded by Muslim countries that are 1)growing increasingly hostile to Israel and 2) trending increasingly toward a revival of the Ottoman caliphate. I think we would do well in such an environment to keep our eyes open and know the prophetic scriptures.
For you, brothers, are not in the darkness, in order that the Day of the Lord might surprise you like a thief. 1 Thess 5:4
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 04:56:58 PM
Good thing we are 'no longer a Christian country.'
:umnick:
Wednesday, 05 September 2012 11:50
Obama Prepares Huge Bailout for Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt
Written by Alex Newman
The Obama administration is close to finalizing a massive $1-billion bailout for the increasingly totalitarian Muslim Brotherhood regime ruling over Egypt, according to U.S. government officials cited in news reports. The move is already drawing fierce criticism from opponents arguing that bailing out the new Islamist ruler, who is already working to bolster Egyptian ties with the communist Chinese dictatorship while becoming increasingly despotic at home, would be a mistake on multiple levels.
In addition to forgiving the $1 billion in Egyptian government debt, almost a third of its total burden, the administration is also working with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) — largely funded by American taxpayers — to secure a $5-billion loan for the regime. On top of that, U.S. officials are in the process of creating multiple funds and programs worth almost $500 million to help politically connected U.S. and Egyptian businesses.
http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/12720-obama-prepares-huge-bailout-for-muslim-brotherhood-in-egypt
And this Molly, what you just posted above is exactly what I'm talking about when I mentioned in my last post that you do not want to be living in the generation that will see the rapture of the true Christian Church. It will be only the politically connected, the political proletariats, political elites, or whatever other terminology you care to tag them with, these are the only ones who will own anything of value. It will be governments who will dole out rights & privileges to their favorite constituency groups who will own anything of intrinsic value.
Just as bad as I described lifestyle in the previous paragraph, will be control of the flow of information through the media that will be extant in the generation that sees the rapture of the true Christian church. The media environment will be so "politically correct" that it may even be against the law for large sections of the Bible to be read in public, things in the Bible deemed offensive these days will be against the law in generations to come. Because so much of this PC stuff today is now being enacted into law, future generations may never get to read large portions of scripture inside our churches because of its' offensive nature to politically connected groups, it may be that this is the reason only 7 ecclessias get the message concerning the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.
The manner of media communications in the generation that sees the rapture of the Body of Christ will be dramatically different than the one we presently exchange information back & forth on. Governments will have the means to almost instantly discover the identity of those who make statements deemed offensive & against the law, this includes use of the Bible for disseminating information between Christians & others. Possession of the Bible itself will not be against the law, but how it is interpreted will carry legal ramifications. The generation that sees the rapture of the Christian church will also see a revolution in how the visual media is presented to the public, today we have big screen HDTV's which will be replaced by technology presently on the drawing boards that will be mind boggling if our generation could see forward only 30 - 40 years. Things like three dimensional HDTV in geo-syncronous orbit 22,000 miles above the earth whereby the entire world's population can view the two witnesses proclaim their messages to the world. Yeah, you think big screen HDTV in your living room today is a big deal, wait'll you see the ones they have 50 years from now.
Quote from: reFORMer on September 06, 2012, 08:29:58 AM
I don't study this topic enough to deal with many things that are said. I doubt I would have the time and stamina to answer very many issues even if I had the knowledge. But I do have adequate knowledge to recognize most of the main assumptions of dipsinsational eschatology are irretrievably unbiblical. That is, there is no Biblical quote directly stating in the same words what The Rapture Doctrine states. The one exception to the best of my knowledge exists only in English translation. "...in a moment" (1 Co 1552) was the first point seized upon by my opponent in an 8 point list of major components of Rapture deception I previously posted in this thread. This indicates to me there is some glimmer of recognition of what I'm talking about.
Fair points about the "rapture", same ones non-dispensationalists have been making for 150 years.
Just one question however: Do you believe in the concept that the seven ecclessias in Revelation are ages of the Christian church? Most dispensationalists believe this......just curious about your position on it.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2012, 05:33:59 AM
Hi Reformer
The fundamentalist movement may have started in reaction against liberalism and secularization, but it has become a support bed for another gospel that mixes American culture with the faith of Jesus Christ (this is only my opinion). The fact that is that America has been exporting war and pillaging the economies of developing nations through corporations while espousing a propagandist message through the right that we are still a "Christian" nation and the "God and family" are at the core of our values. I think this is obvious to anyone who lifts the lid a little, and I love America- I am just not willing to stick my head in the sand.
I understand that my perspective is controversial but I really don't think it is far- fetched at all. The Pharisees were, in my opinion, exactly what fundamentalism has become(by and large) in the U.S. today. They were sold out to Rome even as they maintained a mask of piety. They collaborated in the crucifixion of Jesus because they did not know the Father.
Anyone who carefully reads the prophets of Israel and the words of Jesus will understand that financial integrity, fairness, social justice and fair distribution of resources were FUNDAMENTAL tenets of the law, the prophets and the gospel. In My Opinion the majority of fundamentalists and Pentecostals have bought into a corrupt vision that ignores the pleas of Christ and the prophets as they build bigger churches and strive against one another theologically and organizationally rather than reaching out with a helping hand to the world around them.
I do apologize for stepping on anyones toes if I have- but this is what I think is happening.
Rather than fundamentalists being duplicitous, I think they've been duped by generalized God talk, a cultural gesture depleted of specific faith content and used by those who want to get elected. Possibly many of these politicians are also sincere, though not theologians; but, once elected they discover the inertia of government is determined by a non-elected bureaucracy they can do little to change. The suicide of the U.S. by a hedonist populace copying Christian celebration of ignorance and by globalist politicians wearing a culture appeasing God face cannot be prevented unless there is sufficient change in the people who bear the name of Christ. We must come down off our self congratulatory closed mindedness and become lowly, needy seekers, turning from our sins to seek the knowledge of God.
The fundamentalists particularly had departed involvement in politics for more than a generation until some re-engagement since around 1980 along with the evangelicals. The reason for their absence was the dipsinsational doctrine being repeated over and over in many of the posts in this "Prophecy" thread (which is really not about prophecy, only interpretations of scripture.) Unaware of the trajectory scripture sets for transition into the Millennium, they have their own horror story factory cranking out men's evil imaginings. After their terrifying musings they're so glad they won't be here. They fatalistically believe the world belongs to the devil and things are getting worse and worse until what little influence they've had disappears with them in The Rupture. Then the devil takes over completely. I've actually encountered the comment sincerely made, "Why polish brass on a sinking ship?"
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2012, 12:36:29 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 09:09:02 AMNobody saw this in 70 ad because the conditions were not met for the return of Christ, namely the fulfillment of the Gentiles, after which, as Paul tells us, the Jews will be saved by the appearance of Christ himself.
Is it different for anybody else.
Only, ONLY, Jews will be saved. Ever. Isn't that exactly what the the whole OT and NT is about?
Israel and Judah. Two sticks. Two flocks. etc etc
And, their companions. Story of Ruth, remember?
The other 11 tribes aren't 'Jews.'
They are.
I'll show you when I'mbackhome
Egypt's Jihad Organizations Call for Christian Genocide
by Raymond Ibrahim • Aug 14, 2012 at 2:56 pm
According to today's issue of El Fegr, "Elements of terrorist, jihadi organizations distributed leaflets today inciting for the killing of Copts in Suez, Ismailia, and Upper Egypt, promising them [Copts] a tragic end if they do not return to the truth.
An image of a copy of the letter appears on El Fegr's website. Titled "An Urgent and Important Notice," it begins by calling on "all brothers and sisters" to "kill or physically attack the enemies of the religion of Allah—the Christians in all of Egypt's provinces, the slaves of the Cross, Allah's curse upon them..." It proceeds to promise a monetary reward for whoever helps "achieve Allah's rights against his enemies."
As a testimony to how safe the jihadi organizations of today's Egypt feel under the new president, the Muslim Brotherhood's Muhammad Morsi, the usual cryptic language is dropped, as the letter names contact points and even a mosque, Sheikh Ahmed Mosque in Kasfrit, where those interested should rally "after Friday prayers where new members to the organization will be welcomed."
This genocide has been called until Egypt's Christians "return to the truth," a reference apparently meaning that Egypt's Christians must either embrace "the truth"—that is, Islam, which they must convert to—or else return to the truths of the religion, which holds that Christians must embrace their subhuman dhimmi status (Koran 9:29).
Both forced conversions and dhimmi status for Christians are a regular feature of Egypt's landscape, past and present.
Subsequent news reports cite the growing fear and terror among Egypt's Christian population.
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/2012/08/egypt-jihad-organizations-call-for-christian
Prophecy of Jesus' return to save the Jews [country of Israel] from the 'nations'=heathen=Gentiles who are invading. Jesus will stand upon the mount of Olives and the Jews will accept him as their Messiah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
--Zech 12
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
--Zech 14
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--Rom 11
Who are the jews?
It's quite simple. The original 12 tribes split up in 2 groups.
The 10 northern ones never returned from exile. THey are "not my flock"
The other 2 is what we today call Jews. Levites+Benjaminites
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 09:09:02 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on September 06, 2012, 08:40:18 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2012, 06:54:40 AM
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Luke 21:20
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28
So this is written to the Christians about the return of Jesus. Look up!
And, certainly Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies of Muslims and Crusaders and 20th Century Christians, and Jesus didn't return, because a condition of his return is that the city is occupied with Jews when this happens. The next time we see Jerusalem surrounded by hostile armies, it will be occupied by Jews. Christ will return to save the Jews from these armies. And, you can bet that day is near and those armies will be Muslim.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
--Luke 21
The generation that sees these things start to come to pass will be the generation that sees it all fulfilled because it will all happen within a generation.
Two conditions which must be met that were not met in 70 ad--the fulfillment of the Gentiles AND Jerusalem and Judah occupied by Jews. Only one of those conditions was met in 70ad.
It was the sign that the Son of Man was present in the heavens, having received a kingdom from His Father. If the destruction of Jerusalem had not of happened Jesus would have been a liar, a false prophet, a false cMessiah. That it did means He is enthroned. Scripture did not say the sign was in the heavens, as a recent translation (?) has stated. Scripture also did not say Jerusalem surrounded with armies, "the abomination of desolation," was the sign of the coming (again, or a second time) of Jesus.
Luke 21:20 most certainly does say Jerusalem surrounded by armies means its desolation is near. In Dan 9:27 the Hebrew is referring to armies that will cause the desolation. The 'abomination of desolation" is a foreign army that invades Jerusalem.
As far as looking up in 70 ad, what would they see? Nothing. Just like if I looked up right now. Nothing. To say otherwise is really getting a bit too esoteric. This Look up passage refers to the Son of Man coming in clouds spoken of in Luke 21:27, the sentence just before the Look up sentence.
Nobody saw this in 70 ad because the conditions were not met for the return of Christ, namely the fulfillment of the Gentiles, after which, as Paul tells us, the Jews will be saved by the appearance of Christ himself.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
--Luke 21
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
--1 Thess 4
You just didn't understand what I wrote. I was still adding to it when you wrote a response, so it wasn't all there when you posted an answer. I have a habit of adding to and changing what I wrote shortly after I first post it. It just keeps coming.
I'm quoting my post of p.13, #303 below here again and then commenting to clarify . . .
Quote from: reFORMer on September 06, 2012, 08:40:18 AM
It was the sign that the Son of Man was present in the heavens, having received a kingdom from His Father. If the destruction of Jerusalem had not of happened Jesus would have been a liar, a false prophet, a false Messiah. That it did means He is enthroned. Scripture did not say the sign was in the heavens, as a recent translation (?) has stated. Scripture also did not say Jerusalem surrounded with armies, "the abomination of desolation," was the sign of the coming (again, or a second time) of Jesus. The word parousia means, "to be, to be present," rather than "coming." Perhaps it could be sometimes said, "coming to be present;" but, that blurs it a bit. The one like unto the son of man in Daniel, Who goes up to the one on the throne to recieve a kingdom is what this in the gospels refers. Hence, "Goes to be present" would be more appropriate. This displays "coming" or "going" hides more than reveals "the presence."
Let me rearrange that a little . . .
Scripture did not say the sign was in the heavens, as a recent translation (?) has stated. It was the sign that the Son of Man was "present" not, "coming," but, present in the heavens, having received a kingdom from His Father. Jesus would have been a liar, a false prophet, a false Messiah if the destruction of Jerusalem had not of happened; but, because it did happen it means He sits enthroned. Jesus' prophecies concerning this are recorded in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
Scripture also did not say, "Jerusalem surrounded with armies," which is, "the abomination of desolation," was the sign of the "coming" (again, or a second time) of Jesus. Though the KJV wrongly renders it "coming" 34 or 35 times, the Greek word
parousia means, "to be, to be present." The one like unto the son of man in Daniel, Who goes up to the one on the throne to receive a kingdom is what this in the gospels refers. Jesus was going up to be present, not coming down or back from some place else to here. It was not a heavenly sign; but, a heavenly presence. It was not an earthly coming; but an earthly sign: Jerusalem surrounded with armies.
Is that more understandable?
Quote from: ReformerIs that more understandable?
Not really. lol.
I understand you are trying to make it spiritual instead of literal, [or maybe happening in heaven instead of on earth?] but I am reading it literally.
If the Lord says, when these conditions are present, Look Up, I will look up when those conditions are present, if they ever are. I don't see anything wrong with the translations, and the Greek is quoting the Hebrew, Old and New Testament bearing witness to the same thing.
I read armies as armies. I'm just about to write a post on the armies of Gog.
And, when you see Jerusalem compassed about with
"armies"G4760
στρατόπεδον
stratopedon
strat-op'-ed-on
From the base of G4756 and the same as G3977; a camping ground, that is, (by implication)
body of troops: - army.then you know the desolation thereof is nigh.
The following versions have the sign in heaven:
Matthew 2430 (New King James Version) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven
Matthew 2430 (New American Standard Bible) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky...
Matthew 2430 (English Standard Version) Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man
The following versions have the Son of Man in heaven:
Matthew 2430 (Revised Standard Version) then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven
Matthew 2430 (1901 American Standard Version) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven
Matthew 2430 (New International Version) At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky...
Matthew 2430 (Young's Literal Translation) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven;
Matthew 2430 (Concordant Literal Translation) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
Matthew 2430 (King James Version) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
In bold above what does YLT, CLT and KJV say the sign is? It is the sign "of the Son of man." It is not, the sign in heaven. It is the sign of the Son of man in heaven. Not, the sign in heaven of the Son of man. There are variants in the translations consulted, so I have to grant the possibility it could be the sign in heaven; yet, the most literal versions for which I have more respect do have the Son in heaven. This is what I've discovered so far. Until now I'd never consulted multiple versions on this phrase. If the sign is in heaven we lose the connection with Daniel. Then too, what is this sign? I understand that the sign that Jesus was the real thing is His reigning from heaven.
Jesus' words are in reference to Daniel 713-14. Jesus' ascension is in view, both in Daniel and Matthew. The fact that His prophecies in Matthew 24 were fulfilled proved He was the Son of man to which Daniel referred. Nobody could destroy God's Israel that He had created, disciplined and protected. The one that had prophesied it said they would see Him, the Son of man present in clouds and glory. His presence was before the throne of God, receiving dominion, glory, and a kingdom. The people of Israel found out He was right and He was indeed the Messiah, the Son of man and the Son of God when His words were fulfilled.
Daniel 713-14 King James Version [13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
I don't see any difference between those translations. They all look the same to me.
Jesus himself is spoken of as a sign--
Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against,
--Luke 2:34
When the disciples ask him what will the sign of the end of the age be, he answers them that his appearance in the heavens riding the clouds will be a sign of the end of the Age.
3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Mat 24
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Jesus refers to himself more than once as the Rider of the Clouds spoken of in the Old Testament. The Pharisees, and disciples, --because they know the OT-- understand what he is saying, that he is God, that he is YHWH.
Sing to God,
set his name to music!
Pave the way for the Rider of the Clouds,
set up for the sake of Yah,
exult before his face.
--Psa 68:4
It's important, also, to remember that before this he has warned them that false Christs will come, and if anyone tells them he is in the desert, don't believe it, or in the chamber, don't go there. The sign of his coming will be in the heavens.
This is very important because the Antichrist will fool many that he is the Christ, using signs and wonders that would even fool the elect, if that were possible.
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Mat 24:27
The difference is like punctation.
The sign of Jesus who lives in heaven.
Visible in the sky is a sign (made) by Jesus.
Is that what you mean Ref?
VERY carefull reading is required....
I still don't get the difference.
But, when in doubt use the Dick and Jane Bible:
The title of this passage is SIGNS OF THE END
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. All the nations on earth will be sad. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky. He will come with power and great glory. 31 He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call. They will gather his chosen people from all four directions. They will bring them from one end of the heavens to the other. Mat 24
The appearance of Jesus in the sky is one of the signs of the end of the age.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Everyone has trouble with these verses.
Dick and Jane Bible:
32 "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all those things happening, you know that the end is near. It is right at the door. 34 What I'm about to tell you is true. The people living at that time will certainly not pass away until all those things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away. But my words will never pass away.
The generation that sees these signs will live to see the end of the Age. That means it will all happen very fast.
Israel [founded in 1948] is the fig tree whose branches are now tender and putting out leaves.
Isee 1948 Israel as sign in earth[flesh and blood can not please God] Isreal,true Isreal is not about circumcision of flesh..but heart..in spirit.
the seeing Christ returning on the clouds of heaven is the spirit being poured out on beleivers of Christ..latter rains..that cause the branch..fig tree to sprout
and put forth leaves for the healing of the nations[all nations blessed]
signs in heavens and earth..is just that
the fruit is when He takes away ALL THEiR SIN[law was fulfilled by Christ] cast it far away..as far as the east from the west..it is Jesus return in the power and glory of the Father[coming on the clouds of heaven like lightening]
to the saints that had been trampled on and overcome[gospel of salvation of all mankind] unregenerated flesh and blood Isreal will not inherit[see 40 years perish in
wilderness] It is the generation of Christ/tree of life sprout that put5's out tender shoots and leaves[leaves cover and shade nakedness of sin from feiry displeasure
of judgement
the city divided into 3 parts from earthquake[once again shake heaven and earth] jews,christian and muslims....christ=holy of holies..jews holy[law] Ishmeal's
role as outer court nations...this is a sign in the earth/or flesh
that stone ofthe revelation of Christ declared by the Holy spirit that grows is the mountain of blessing that fills the earth..reign/rain of Christ comes on the clouds
of heaven and causes the tree with oil in itself[spirit/truth/life] to grow tender and put forth leaves..healing of the great wound of sin...a fig poultice..
of which a sign was asked....how will I know I will go up to Temple of the Lord[Tabernacles]
these are signposts to help you walk in the way[spirit]
It is all Him..He does it all by His spirit
The Antichrist's empire described in Eze 38 and 39 is all muslim today. There are no signs of any of these nations abandoning their Islamic foundations, instead they are becoming more radical.
Eze 38 lists the nations of this final beast empire. The antichrist here is referred to as Gog.
And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
--Eze 38
Ezekiel describes how Gog will come against and invade a land that sounds very much like the modern country of Israel.
Get ready. Be prepared. Take command of the huge armies that are gathered around you. 8 After many years you will be called together to fight. Later, you will march into a land that has not had war for a while. Its people were gathered together from many nations. They came to the mountains of Israel. No one had lived in those mountains for a long time. So the people had been brought back from other nations. Now all of the people live in safety. 9 You, all of your troops and the many nations with you will march up to attack them. All of you will advance like a storm. You will be like a cloud covering their land." Eze 38
Ezekiel gives us the specific names of countries that will invade Israel. Gog is identified as the one spoken of by the prophets in ancient times.
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
--Eze 38
Eight nations are mentioned as part of Gog's empire. All except for Persia [Iran] are named after sons [grandsons] of Noah.
Where did Noah's sons and grandsons settle? Mishech and Tubal traded with ancient Tyre, concluding that they are in modern Turkey, northern Iran, and Southern Russia. Today this region is Islamic. Magog is today the Islamic soviet republics and parts of afghanistan. Some say Magog is Syria. Persia is easy, that's Iran. Cush borders Egypt, the nation of the Islamic Republic of Sudan. Put is the nation of Libya. Gomer is known as ghimorrei, central Turkey. Togarmah is also Turkey, SE Turkey near Syrian border.
Five of the 8 nations occupy modern Turkey and some southern Russian Islamic republics. Israel is surrounded on all four sides by nations of Islam.
Revelation 17 describes the final beast kingdom, the eighth, that will invade Israel before the return of Jesus.
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
--Rev 17
There are seven beast kingdoms. These are kingdoms of Satan. John gives us a way to identify the last beast kingdom before the return of Jesus.
Five are fallen when John is writing:-- Egyptian, Assyria, Babylon, Medea-Persia, Greece,
One is-- Roman
The other is not yet come-- Ottoman Empire
This last one, the seventh, will be mortally wounded [1923] and revive at the end times [has not happened yet] as the eighth.
The ten horns are ten kings of countries that the Antichrist will rule over as an Empire [caliphate].
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2012, 07:20:24 PM
The Antichrist's empire described in Eze 38 and 39 is all muslim today. There are no signs of any of these nations abandoning their Islamic foundations, instead they are becoming more radical.
Eze 38 lists the nations of this final beast empire. The antichrist here is referred to as Gog.
And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
--Eze 38
Ezekiel describes how Gog will come against and invade a land that sounds very much like the modern country of Israel.
Except, Ezekiel described the land that the armies of Gog and Magog attack as "the land of unwalled villages."
Ezekiel 38:11-12
And thou shalt say, I will go up to
the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
The modern Jewish state in Palestine can't be in view, as there is a prominent wall there, the Israeli West Bank barrier, 760 km long, up to 8 m high, made of concrete slabs and sniper towers in populous areas and barbed wire fences in other places.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier)
Besides, the invaders are "all riding horses." They are armed with spears, swords, bows and arrows, shields, bucklers, etc. In the end, if all this is taken
literally, they are
eaten by birds.(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/ezek-39.jpg)
From a Jack Chick tract
Doug
Quote from: DougAnd thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages;
Once you get inside Israel, it's unwalled and you can move freely from village to village. As compared to medieval Europe, for instance, which had a wall around every village that could be defended by those living inside.
So I think it still fits the prophecy in its current state.
Quoteif all this is taken literally, they are eaten by birds.
Ever hear of vultures and crows?
QuoteBesides, the invaders are "all riding horses."
Interesting, the Muslim eschatology describes two armies riding horses to Mecca from the north and the south. One army carries black flags and one carries white flags. They are announcing the return of the Mahdi [muslim Messiah; our Antichrist].
This happens before they attack Israel.
PS eschatology is much more important and central to Islam than it is to Christianity. As usual, we will be the last to know due to ignorance of God's word.
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2012, 09:42:07 PM
Quote from: DougAnd thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages;
Once you get inside Israel, it's unwalled and you can move freely from village to village. As compared to medieval Europe, for instance, which had a wall around every village that could be defended by those living inside.
Do you mean the wall becomes invisible, when one is "inside"?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YtfXWnJzJqY/Soh6LMiCP4I/AAAAAAAAAao/uLAe3bUdd10/s320/banksy_palestine.jpg)
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2012, 09:42:07 PM
So I think it still fits the prophecy in its current state.
Sure it does, but, maybe not the one you are thinking of.
Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
The "beast" is a composite of Daniel's four beasts. They represented Babylon, Persia, the hellenistic Greek empires, and Rome. The Roman province of Judea was given a deadly wound in 70 A.D. This was healed, in the formation of the Jewish state in 1948.
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2012, 09:42:07 PM
Quoteif all this is taken literally, they are eaten by birds.
Ever hear of vultures and crows?
Umm.. do they consume the chariots too?
Ezek. 39:20
Thus ye shall be filled at my table with
horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.
Strange crows.
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2012, 09:42:07 PM
QuoteBesides, the invaders are "all riding horses."
Interesting, the Muslim eschatology describes two armies riding horses to Mecca from the north and the south. One army carries black flags and one carries white flags. They are announcing the return of the Mahdi [muslim Messiah; our Antichrist].
This happens before they attack Israel.
PS eschatology is much more important and central to Islam than it is to Christianity. As usual, we will be the last to know due to ignorance of God's word.
Literalism often leads to interpretations that contradict other scriptures and offend common sense.
Doug
IMO that unwalled land is the seperation wall between jew and gentile being put away. that one new man in Christ...
a jew is a jew in the spirit..as a spiriualt man..with a circumcized heart of flesh[christ] not stone[law/ministry of death].
pouring His spirit out on all flesh is the fall of the wall of seperation....face it..are not all the little children partakers of flesh and blood?
and what little children? the children of the kingdom of light.
when He lumped all sin in the flesh as condemned..and gave free gift of eternal life to all....He pulled down the wall of seperation...so that no flesh could boast.
Quote from: sheila on September 08, 2012, 10:25:25 PM
IMO that unwalled land is the seperation wall between jew and gentile being put away. that one new man in Christ...
I agree. Ezekiel's "land of unwalled villages" is the place of "them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates." This is the "rest" of Hebrews 4:9, promised to those in Christ. And "neither bars nor gates" means that they are free.
John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
It is the "better land" of Hebrews 11:16. No walls there.
Doug
Love it sheila!
And this post got me really excited:
Quote from: sheila on September 08, 2012, 07:13:59 PM
Isee 1948 Israel as sign in earth[flesh and blood can not please God] Isreal,true Isreal is not about circumcision of flesh..but heart..in spirit.
the seeing Christ returning on the clouds of heaven is the spirit being poured out on beleivers of Christ..latter rains..that cause the branch..fig tree to sprout
and put forth leaves for the healing of the nations[all nations blessed]
signs in heavens and earth..is just that
the fruit is when He takes away ALL THEiR SIN[law was fulfilled by Christ] cast it far away..as far as the east from the west..it is Jesus return in the power and glory of the Father[coming on the clouds of heaven like lightening]
to the saints that had been trampled on and overcome[gospel of salvation of all mankind] unregenerated flesh and blood Isreal will not inherit[see 40 years perish in
wilderness] It is the generation of Christ/tree of life sprout that put5's out tender shoots and leaves[leaves cover and shade nakedness of sin from feiry displeasure
of judgement
the city divided into 3 parts from earthquake[once again shake heaven and earth] jews,christian and muslims....christ=holy of holies..jews holy[law] Ishmeal's
role as outer court nations...this is a sign in the earth/or flesh
that stone ofthe revelation of Christ declared by the Holy spirit that grows is the mountain of blessing that fills the earth..reign/rain of Christ comes on the clouds
of heaven and causes the tree with oil in itself[spirit/truth/life] to grow tender and put forth leaves..healing of the great wound of sin...a fig poultice..
of which a sign was asked....how will I know I will go up to Temple of the Lord[Tabernacles]
these are signposts to help you walk in the way[spirit]
It is all Him..He does it all by His spirit
I love thinking about these things. And those who can hear say it's coming soon. :myahoo:
Quote from: Doug on September 08, 2012, 11:38:36 PM
Quote from: sheila on September 08, 2012, 10:25:25 PM
IMO that unwalled land is the seperation wall between jew and gentile being put away. that one new man in Christ...
I agree. Ezekiel's "land of unwalled villages" is the place of "them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates." This is the "rest" of Hebrews 4:9, promised to those in Christ. And "neither bars nor gates" means that they are free.
John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
It is the "better land" of Hebrews 11:16. No walls there.
Doug
well, then you're about to get attacked according to Eze38. :teaching:
The Bible is very specific that once the fulness of the Gentiles is reached, then, the Jews will be brought in and Jesus will return because the Jews will be calling on him for help.
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth,
until ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord
--Mat 23
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2012, 11:53:24 PM
Quote from: Doug on September 08, 2012, 11:38:36 PM
Quote from: sheila on September 08, 2012, 10:25:25 PM
IMO that unwalled land is the seperation wall between jew and gentile being put away. that one new man in Christ...
I agree. Ezekiel's "land of unwalled villages" is the place of "them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates." This is the "rest" of Hebrews 4:9, promised to those in Christ. And "neither bars nor gates" means that they are free.
John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
It is the "better land" of Hebrews 11:16. No walls there.
Doug
well, then you're about to get attacked according to Eze38. :teaching:
The "better land" is invaded, and attacked by the armies of Gog and Mgog, and their horses. They come against "the land that is brought back from the sword" [Ezek. 38:8] and "the mountains of Israel," which are symbols of God's promises to the saints. And they come against "the prophets of Israel."
Ezekiel 38:17
Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
The invaders are people who misinterpret the words of the prophets. They are also described in Rev. 20:8-9. The "land of unwalled villages" in Ezek. 38 is not the earthly Palestine. There have been walled towns and cities there for thousands of years, and today the walls there are more prominent than ever before.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/Restricted_Access.jpg)
Photo by Dr. Stephen Sizer
The prophet Zechariah wrote, "In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with
blindness." [Zech. 12:4] Horses are likely symbolic of those who lack understanding. [Psa. 32:9]
IMHO, anyone who fails to notice the walls that characterize the present day Jewish state must be... blind!
Doug
ahhh..yes....He will save the jews from their sin,too....when they realize they have no righteousness of their own..under the law..
so...I see no temple there[where sacrifices of red heifers..rams,lambs..purified material temple furnishings[some are of the opinion
the temple must be rebuilt in Jerusalem,before His return]
but this is the temple that must be rebuilt..first the cheif cornerstone must be accepted...the revelation that Jesus Christ, the Son of God
is their Messiah...for I say..that thou art Peter..and on this stone[revelation of God] I will build my church..Blessed art thou,Peter
for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you..BUT THE FATHER IN HEAVEN
Song of Songs.....I opened for my lover,but my lover had left;he was gone.My heart sank at his departure.I looked for him..but did not find him
I called him but he did not answer....
...before I relized it my desire set me among the royal chariots of my people
yes,Doug...their horses are but flesh....the horses and chariot's of Israel are not.....armies of heaven with Him riding white horses/spirit..conducting
spiritual warfare in rightousness and truth
I have nothing against interpreting end times eschatology this way [that is, church centered], but what worries me is the country of Israel is going to come under more and more danger in end times, and Christians who feel this way are not likely to support her.
The church has to make provision for the Jews because God does.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
--Rom 11
"The Redeemer will come to Jerusalem to buy back those in Israel who have turned from their sins," says the LORD.
--Isa 59:20
Go on up to a high mountain,
O Zion, herald of good news;
lift up your voice with strength,
O Jerusalem, herald of good news;
lift it up, fear not;
say to the cities of Judah,
"Behold your God!"
--Isa 40:9
32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.
--Joel 2:32
I bring near my righteousness; it is not far off,
and my salvation will not delay;
I will put salvation in Zion,
for Israel my glory."
--Is 46:13
17 But in Mount Zion there shall be those who escape,
and it shall be holy,
and the house of Jacob shall possess their own possessions.
--Obe 1
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.
--Psa 14:7, --Psa 53:6
"Thus says the Lord:
Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob
and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city shall be rebuilt on its mound,
and the palace shall stand where it used to be.
--Jer 30:18
25 "Therefore thus says the Lord God: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name.
--Eze 39:25
11 For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed,
when I restore the fortunes of my people.
--Hos 6:11
"For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, Joel 3:1
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--Rom 11
I know Molly....but we must not war against flesh and blood..lest we become a bloody man...
Someone in the crowd said to him,"Teacher,tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me" Jesus replied,'Man,who appointed me judge and arbiter
between you?" Then he said 'watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions"
[or in how much land a nation may possess]
Now,this can also apply to the muslim's nations around little Israel..and to any and all of us.
the Most I can do..is pray in the spirit...'Lord,open their eyes"
Ok, Sheila--You pray for them and I'll send them Patriot missiles and F-18 fighter jets.
:icon_jokercolor:
:Pray: :Pray: :Pray: :Pray: :Pray:
For further reading with regard to the futures of Gog & Magog, read Rev 20:7-9, this is the fulfillment of Ezek 38 & 39. It is what explains why there are "unwalled cities" in the land of Israel, and "them that are at rest", and "that dwell safely with no gates".
There has been no warfare in the land & its' vicinity for a thousand years, Israel has been dwelling in peace. After the millenium Satan is once again loosed for a season & inspires Israel's old antagonists to descend upon them. For some reason Israel's old enemies still have not learned their lesson, but Ezek 38 & 39 is the prophecy that explains in great detail how Rev 20:7-9 will be fulfilled. The entirety of the Book of Revelation is mostly a summation (condensed version) of all the prophecies of the Old Testament.
Of course we read about horses & chariots in these prophecies, at the start of the Millenium Christ will brutally crack down on present day mechanized warfare & enforce civil obedience in which life on Earth will once again be a throwback to pre-industrial revolution lifestyles, horse & buggy if you please.
For a while I also believed that Islam was the 8th beast ottaman empire. But now I do not, because it is just another religion, that forbids worship of a man.
I think though that it might play a part in Gogs army. The problem however is that the passages speak of Gog as a mighty army of alliance nations that will attack unwalled villages in order to take a spoil.
1. Israel is not dwelling in peace, but rather in constant war, rocket attacks, etc and a massive walled defence.
2. Islamists are seperated, with different ideolgies. There are islamic type dictators, there are those who want to destroy Israel, there are those who wish to make Jerusalem their capital and save the mosque.
In fact that is an interesting thought. Will the Islam sit back and let Iran threaten the dome of the rock and destroy it?
Maybe Islam will rally to save Israel from Iran, for this time and season, for it is the season of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the demonstration of his holy revival and not of world war 3.
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 01:05:40 AM
I have nothing against interpreting end times eschatology this way [that is, church centered], but what worries me is the country of Israel is going to come under more and more danger in end times, and Christians who feel this way are not likely to support her.
The church has to make provision for the Jews because God does.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
--Rom 11
Yes and the time will come when the church will need the Jew, that the Jew will finally help the gentile, that he will hold on to the skirt of a Jew as he has heard that God is with the Jew as Israel becomes Gods kingdom on earth, the mightiest nation upon the earth, fulfilling scripture.
Joel Richardson on the new movie released by Iran -- the coming of the Mahdi is upon us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yURM70Ly-Us&feature=related
The movie recently made by Iran: The coming of the Mahdi is upon us [and, yes, he's riding a white horse]--with subtitles in English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwiadYT-N9k
Watch these two videos and Israel won't seem so paranoid anymore.
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2012, 05:20:05 PM
I still don't get the difference.
I don't believe that. It's extremely obvious.
Mmmm, offlibne time now. My internet cafe counter is close to 0 $
Quote from: thinktank on September 09, 2012, 04:52:51 AM
Yes, and the time will come when the (
gentile) church will need the Jew, that the Jew will finally help the gentile, that he will hold on to the skirt of a Jew as he has heard that God is with the Jew as Israel becomes Gods kingdom on earth, the mightiest nation upon the earth, fulfilling scripture.
[/quote]
And you have just written exactly what Rev 20:7-9 is all about, except for your use of the word "church" where I have inserted "gentile" alongside of it. Most Christians simply do not understand what the 1000 years of the Millenium is about. It is about Christ only beginning to restructure the order of the world's ruling elite, the prelude to this is the more ominous task of first doing away with the armies of the false messiah to Israel (so-called AntiChrist) by the end of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.
The biggest share of time consumed during the 1000 years of the Millenium, is rebuilding Israel and returning the 12 tribes of Israel from the lands of the Gentiles in order that it will become Christ's proclamation to the world for dissemination of the gospel. After the 1000 years are over & Gog & Magog & all the remainder of men's governments are finally dispatched to the ashbin of human history, then the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to find it's place on Earth, it will be
only then there will be no more war on Earth.
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
"The Redeemer will come to Jerusalem to buy back those in Israel who have turned from their sins," says the LORD.
--Isa 59:20
Didn't Jesus already do that?
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
Go on up to a high mountain,
O Zion, herald of good news;
lift up your voice with strength,
O Jerusalem, herald of good news;
lift it up, fear not;
say to the cities of Judah,
"Behold your God!"
--Isa 40:9
The "high mountain" is the "mountain of the Lord's house," the was raised up to the "top of the mountains," the throne of God in heaven, when Jesus ascended to his Father. Jerusalem was raised up, and became the heavenly Jerusalem, and those who believe in Christ are raised up with him. The earthly Jerusalem was a mere type and shadow of the heavenly one. The gospel flows from the church, the heavenly city, not the earthly one.
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.
--Joel 2:32
That would be the heavenly mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem.
Hebrews 12:22-24
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
I bring near my righteousness; it is not far off,
and my salvation will not delay;
I will put salvation in Zion,
for Israel my glory."
--Is 46:13
Again, this is the heavenly city.
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
17 But in Mount Zion there shall be those who escape,
and it shall be holy,
and the house of Jacob shall possess their own possessions.
--Obe 1
Those who escape from the world, become the Israel of God.
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.
--Psa 14:7, --Psa 53:6
Paul said, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3]
According to the law, Jews who did not believe in Christ are not Israel; [Acts 3:23] they are branches broken off from their tree. [Romans 11:17]
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
25 "Therefore thus says the Lord God: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name.
--Eze 39:25
Not all who call themselves "Israel" are Israel, Paul said.
Romans 9:6-8
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
11 For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed,
when I restore the fortunes of my people.
--Hos 6:11
Not Jews after the flesh, but after the spirit.
Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
"For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, Joel 3:1
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--Rom 11
In the judgment, all nations will learn of God, and will be taught the gospel, including Jews who until now have remained in unbelief.
Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Doug
Quote from: Doug32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.
--Joel 2:32
That would be the heavenly mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem
You are missing this so badly that you aren't even bothering to read the scripture. Why would someone want to escape from the heavenly mount Zion? Why would there be survivors of the heavenly Jerusalem? Why would they be sounding the alarm in heavenly Zion? Why would they be fasting and trembling and calling on God?
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the Lord your God?
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18 Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19 Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
--Joel 2
Where is America in Bible Prophecy?
By Walid Shoebat
For many years, it has been taught that in the Last-Days literally every nation of the earth – including the United States – will be utterly dominated by the Antichrist; there will be no place to escape from the dreaded Mark of the Beast; every last nation of the world will come against Jerusalem. Zechariah 12 is usually used to validate the theory, as is the Apostle John. After all, the Antichrist will be given "authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation," (Revelation 13:7).
This would seem like an ironclad case for the Antichrist ruling the globe, including the United States, which he uses in his march against Jerusalem. It is this dilemma that caused many to believe that the United States will be taken over by Antichrist.
Before we attempt to solve this issue, it is necessary to clarify the dilemma. For this, we can ask a Jesus-style question: does the usage of the phrase, "the whole earth" and "every tribe, tongue and nation" in the Bible mean "the entire globe"? If so, then did Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4:1 send his letter to every nation, tribe and tongue in the "entire globe"?
"Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you." (Daniel 4:1)
"O king, the Most High God gave your father Nebuchadnezzar sovereignty and greatness and glory and splendor. Because of the high position he gave him, all the peoples and nations and men of every language dreaded and feared him," (Daniel 5:18, 19).
How about...
"Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon's wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom," (I Kings 4:34)
Did anyone visit Solomon from China?
How about...
"Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt," (2 Kings 17:29).
Did the inhabitants of every last nation of the earth have Samaritan gods in their homes?
How about...
"the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries." Isaiah 37:18
Did King Sennacherib of Assyria actually destroy all nations on the face of the earth?
How about...
"As I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth," (Daniel 8:5).
Did Alexander the Great occupy the whole earth?
So then, let us offer a new perspective regarding the end-times verses:
Zechariah 14:2 "For I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem for battle"
Matthew 25:32 "I will also gather all nations"
Joel 3:2 "I will gather all nations"
Such verses should not be isolated. In context, Zechariah 12 only encompasses the surrounding nations:
"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves," (Zechariah 12:2-3).
In Joel 3:12 we find the same:
"Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations."
"The surrounding peoples" and "all the nations of the earth" are two references pertaining to the same people; "all the nations" and "the earth" is not the entire globe, though the translation may seem to allude to it as such. The problem is that the translation at times makes it difficult since – in English – "the earth" tends to mean "the entire globe" and in Hebrew the word "Eretz" commonly means "the land" and not "the entire globe."
Then we have the culture. In ancient Hebrew, we find a grammatical construct that makes emphatic statements in order to convey a point, whereas using hyperbole is extremely common in eastern cultures. Elaborating on the exceptions would entirely blunt the impact of the statement. For instance, imagine a speed limit sign that listed the exceptions painted on it, "speed limit 55—except ambulances, fire trucks, police giving chase, etc." Thus, exceptions cannot be ruled out on the basis of exclusive language. This type of language is actually found quite frequently in the Bible. Throughout the prophecies of end-times the Bible is speaking of a regional war and not global (Ezekiel 36:4, 5, Psalm 79:12, Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 28-32).
One common argument I always get is an objection that "the earth" is meant to be "the known world," that today's "known world" must then encompass the entire globe. This assumption is false since all "Four Beasts" in Daniel chapter 7 arise out of "the Great Sea" (Daniel 7:2). "The Great Sea" is the Mediterranean region, not the entire globe. That with all the literal nations of end-times encompasses only the Middle East and Asia Minor. If the first beast (Babylon), second beast (Medo-Persia) and third beast (Greece) all were out within the "Great Sea" (Mediterranean) then the fourth beast of Daniel 7 could only pertain to the Mediterranean Sea as well.
To make the Antichrist rule a global one, many western interpreters today allegorize "The Great Sea" as "the sea of humanity." In so doing, we lose the meaning and the intent of the prophecy. This reference to "The Great Sea" cannot be an allegory pertaining to the "sea of humanity" since every verse in the Bible refers to "The Great Sea" as the Mediterranean Sea (see Num 34:6-7, Jos 1:4, Jos 9:1, Jos 15:12, Jos 15:47, Jos 23:4, Ezek 47:10, 15, 19, 20, Ezek 48: 28).
The Bible makes every effort to clarify that the nations surrounding Israel are the ones to which it is referring:
"And render unto our neighbors sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord," (Psalm 79:12).
Do Israel's "neighbors" include The United States? No. This is confirmed in many places in the Bible:
"Thus Says Jehovah against all mine evil neighbors that touch the inheritance which I have caused my people Israel to inherit," (Jeremiah 12:14). The neighbors are all Muslim.
In the Bible, Antichrist "will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it" (Daniel 7: 23), yet several prophecies state that Antichrist will be confronted and will not take over the globe (Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel 11:30, Ezekiel 28:7-8).
So where is the United States in the Bible? How many ever think about this, that perhaps in the end, the United States is mentioned fighting against the Antichrist. Daniel 11 tells us that Antichrist "acts against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory" (Daniel 11:39).
Who are these "strongest fortresses" [the strongest military might]"? How could the Antichrist rule the entire globe if we have strongest fortresses that fight against him? Does he truly defeat these strongest fortresses? Does he defeat the United States? Does he rule the entire globe?
The answer to this is "No."
Why then do so many modern Western prophecy analysts insist that Antichrist hold the most powerful military might in the world? Which nations hold the strongest military might? Is it not the United States?
The text regarding end-times is clearly portraying what we see in Islam today. Even when we read that he declares war "against the strongest fortresses." What could that mean except what it plainly says—to declare war against the most powerful nations on earth? Jihadists already declared war on Europe and the U.S. And now with the Arab Spring clearly becoming an Islamic storm, we see that what we have said to you years ago in advance; everything is happening in accordance to a plan.
However, the West today seems oblivious to this fact. Who else could be as maniacal as Muslim fundamentalists to declare war on the powerful West? Who else is deceiving the West with false peace saying that 'Islam is a peaceful religion'? And it is all for the purpose of advancing their god, Allah.
This is exactly what we see today.
The position that every nation will fall to Antichrist is impossible since the Bible clearly states that some will even resist the Antichrist and even defeat him. The verses are rarely discussed. In Ezekiel 28, it even confirms that the most powerful nations (strongest fortresses) on earth will annihilate the Antichrist:
"Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas." (Ezekiel 28:7-8)
"They" pertains to these powerful nations and the term "terrible" implies to being "terrible in battle," "most powerful," "strongest fortresses." God will rise up several nations who will carry out His judgment and attack the Antichrist in the end. Therefore, it cannot be true that every nation of the globe will fall to the Antichrist and attack Israel. There have always been attempts to establish a One-World Government, yet they have never succeeded; far too many in the West fail to remember that God divided the nations after the Tower of Babel to never allow them to be one; even in the Millennium we will still have nations separated. This promise is as the rainbow for Noah.
Too many today read the Bible narcissistically. Many books have been written that place the West at the center of prophecy and interpret history through a Western-centric lens. Far too many Westerners have missed the obvious fact that the Bible is thoroughly Middle Eastern. In the Biblical worldview, Jerusalem is the center of the earth, not Europe or America. The biblical prophecies about the End-Times are no different.
End-Times Today is a complete study of Bible Prophecy that will ensure a proper perspective on end-times.
http://www.shoebat.com/2012/04/18/where-is-america-in-bible-prophecy/
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 04:13:59 PM
Quote from: Doug32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.
--Joel 2:32
That would be the heavenly mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem
You are missing this so badly that you aren't even bothering to read the scripture. Why would someone want to escape from the heavenly mount Zion? Why would there be survivors of the heavenly Jerusalem? Why would they be sounding the alarm in heavenly Zion? Why would they be fasting and trembling and calling on God?
Why misrepresent what I said? Those who escape from the
world, and the
great city called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, a.k.a.
Babylon, come to the heavenly mount Zion, and the heavenly Jerusalem, mentioned in Hebrews 12:22.
The first part of Joel 2:32 was included in the scriptures from Joel that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost, after Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, where he was "made Christ."
Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So according to Peter, the events on that day, when Jesus sent the Spirit to his disciples, and thousands of Jews believed, was a fulfilment of Joel's prophecy. The mount Zion and Jerusalem where deliverance is available is the
heavenly mount Zion and the
heavenly Jerusalem, because the earthly city and temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. in a great conflagration.
As Isaiah foretold, mount Zion and Jerusalem were raised up to heaven, when Jesus ascended to his Father.
Isaiah 2:1-3
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
John said, in Rev. 21, that God and the Lamb are the temple of the heavenly Jerusalem. The promise of deliverance and safety is to those who are "in Christ." Not those in the earthly city.
Doug
So now you are saying the day of the LORD has already happened?
God often juxtaposes passages from different time periods and different events together, which is why people speak of double prophecy.
Have we already seen Joel's army of Joel 2?
I suppose you'll say we have.
Remember in Rev 21, the holy city Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 05:18:47 PM
So now you are saying the day of the LORD has already happened?
I think it is upon us; it comes "as a thief in the night." This age is called "night." [John 9:4; 2 Peter 1:19]
"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." The sun represents the gospel. It is turned into darkness by false teachings, such as the idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers, introduced in the early centuries of the church.
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 05:18:47 PM
God often juxtaposes passages from different time periods and different events together, which is why people speak of double prophecy.
Have we already seen Joel's army of Joel 2?
I suppose you'll say we have.
I think the prophecy describes a vast army, which possibly represents many varieties of Christians, scattered in tens of thousands of sects and denominations.
"A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness..." I suggest this refers to spiritual darkness, the confusion about God's word.
"The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses..." Horses represent people with no understanding. [Psa. 32:9]
"And when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded..." The "sword" does not wound them; it is the spiritual sword of God's word; perhaps they have become immune to it.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 04:36:35 PM
Where is America in Bible Prophecy?
By Walid Shoebat
For many years, it has been taught that in the Last-Days literally every nation of the earth – including the United States – will be utterly dominated by the Antichrist; there will be no place to escape from the dreaded Mark of the Beast; every last nation of the world will come against Jerusalem. Zechariah 12 is usually used to validate the theory, as is the Apostle John. After all, the Antichrist will be given "authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation," (Revelation 13:7).
This would seem like an ironclad case for the Antichrist ruling the globe, including the United States, which he uses in his march against Jerusalem. It is this dilemma that caused many to believe that the United States will be taken over by Antichrist.
Before we attempt to solve this issue, it is necessary to clarify the dilemma. For this, we can ask a Jesus-style question: does the usage of the phrase, "the whole earth" and "every tribe, tongue and nation" in the Bible mean "the entire globe"? If so, then did Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4:1 send his letter to every nation, tribe and tongue in the "entire globe"?
"Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you." (Daniel 4:1)
"O king, the Most High God gave your father Nebuchadnezzar sovereignty and greatness and glory and splendor. Because of the high position he gave him, all the peoples and nations and men of every language dreaded and feared him," (Daniel 5:18, 19).
How about...
"Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon's wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom," (I Kings 4:34)
Did anyone visit Solomon from China?
How about...
"Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt," (2 Kings 17:29).
Did the inhabitants of every last nation of the earth have Samaritan gods in their homes?
How about...
"the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries." Isaiah 37:18
Did King Sennacherib of Assyria actually destroy all nations on the face of the earth?
How about...
"As I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth," (Daniel 8:5).
Did Alexander the Great occupy the whole earth?
So then, let us offer a new perspective regarding the end-times verses:
Zechariah 14:2 "For I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem for battle"
Matthew 25:32 "I will also gather all nations"
Joel 3:2 "I will gather all nations"
Such verses should not be isolated. In context, Zechariah 12 only encompasses the surrounding nations:
"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves," (Zechariah 12:2-3).
In Joel 3:12 we find the same:
"Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations."
"The surrounding peoples" and "all the nations of the earth" are two references pertaining to the same people; "all the nations" and "the earth" is not the entire globe, though the translation may seem to allude to it as such. The problem is that the translation at times makes it difficult since – in English – "the earth" tends to mean "the entire globe" and in Hebrew the word "Eretz" commonly means "the land" and not "the entire globe."
Then we have the culture. In ancient Hebrew, we find a grammatical construct that makes emphatic statements in order to convey a point, whereas using hyperbole is extremely common in eastern cultures. Elaborating on the exceptions would entirely blunt the impact of the statement. For instance, imagine a speed limit sign that listed the exceptions painted on it, "speed limit 55—except ambulances, fire trucks, police giving chase, etc." Thus, exceptions cannot be ruled out on the basis of exclusive language. This type of language is actually found quite frequently in the Bible. Throughout the prophecies of end-times the Bible is speaking of a regional war and not global (Ezekiel 36:4, 5, Psalm 79:12, Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 28-32).
One common argument I always get is an objection that "the earth" is meant to be "the known world," that today's "known world" must then encompass the entire globe. This assumption is false since all "Four Beasts" in Daniel chapter 7 arise out of "the Great Sea" (Daniel 7:2). "The Great Sea" is the Mediterranean region, not the entire globe. That with all the literal nations of end-times encompasses only the Middle East and Asia Minor. If the first beast (Babylon), second beast (Medo-Persia) and third beast (Greece) all were out within the "Great Sea" (Mediterranean) then the fourth beast of Daniel 7 could only pertain to the Mediterranean Sea as well.
To make the Antichrist rule a global one, many western interpreters today allegorize "The Great Sea" as "the sea of humanity." In so doing, we lose the meaning and the intent of the prophecy. This reference to "The Great Sea" cannot be an allegory pertaining to the "sea of humanity" since every verse in the Bible refers to "The Great Sea" as the Mediterranean Sea (see Num 34:6-7, Jos 1:4, Jos 9:1, Jos 15:12, Jos 15:47, Jos 23:4, Ezek 47:10, 15, 19, 20, Ezek 48: 28).
The Bible makes every effort to clarify that the nations surrounding Israel are the ones to which it is referring:
"And render unto our neighbors sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord," (Psalm 79:12).
Do Israel's "neighbors" include The United States? No. This is confirmed in many places in the Bible:
"Thus Says Jehovah against all mine evil neighbors that touch the inheritance which I have caused my people Israel to inherit," (Jeremiah 12:14). The neighbors are all Muslim.
In the Bible, Antichrist "will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it" (Daniel 7: 23), yet several prophecies state that Antichrist will be confronted and will not take over the globe (Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel 11:30, Ezekiel 28:7-8).
So where is the United States in the Bible? How many ever think about this, that perhaps in the end, the United States is mentioned fighting against the Antichrist. Daniel 11 tells us that Antichrist "acts against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory" (Daniel 11:39).
Who are these "strongest fortresses" [the strongest military might]"? How could the Antichrist rule the entire globe if we have strongest fortresses that fight against him? Does he truly defeat these strongest fortresses? Does he defeat the United States? Does he rule the entire globe?
The answer to this is "No."
Why then do so many modern Western prophecy analysts insist that Antichrist hold the most powerful military might in the world? Which nations hold the strongest military might? Is it not the United States?
The text regarding end-times is clearly portraying what we see in Islam today. Even when we read that he declares war "against the strongest fortresses." What could that mean except what it plainly says—to declare war against the most powerful nations on earth? Jihadists already declared war on Europe and the U.S. And now with the Arab Spring clearly becoming an Islamic storm, we see that what we have said to you years ago in advance; everything is happening in accordance to a plan.
However, the West today seems oblivious to this fact. Who else could be as maniacal as Muslim fundamentalists to declare war on the powerful West? Who else is deceiving the West with false peace saying that 'Islam is a peaceful religion'? And it is all for the purpose of advancing their god, Allah.
This is exactly what we see today.
The position that every nation will fall to Antichrist is impossible since the Bible clearly states that some will even resist the Antichrist and even defeat him. The verses are rarely discussed. In Ezekiel 28, it even confirms that the most powerful nations (strongest fortresses) on earth will annihilate the Antichrist:
"Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas." (Ezekiel 28:7-8)
"They" pertains to these powerful nations and the term "terrible" implies to being "terrible in battle," "most powerful," "strongest fortresses." God will rise up several nations who will carry out His judgment and attack the Antichrist in the end. Therefore, it cannot be true that every nation of the globe will fall to the Antichrist and attack Israel. There have always been attempts to establish a One-World Government, yet they have never succeeded; far too many in the West fail to remember that God divided the nations after the Tower of Babel to never allow them to be one; even in the Millennium we will still have nations separated. This promise is as the rainbow for Noah.
Too many today read the Bible narcissistically. Many books have been written that place the West at the center of prophecy and interpret history through a Western-centric lens. Far too many Westerners have missed the obvious fact that the Bible is thoroughly Middle Eastern. In the Biblical worldview, Jerusalem is the center of the earth, not Europe or America. The biblical prophecies about the End-Times are no different.
End-Times Today is a complete study of Bible Prophecy that will ensure a proper perspective on end-times.
http://www.shoebat.com/2012/04/18/where-is-america-in-bible-prophecy/
The first half of this post argues that the
usa is not -in-bible-prophecy/
The last part of the post argues that it is, -in-bible-prophecy/
:Chinscratch:
Quote from: DajoThe first half of this post argues that the usa is not -in-bible-prophecy/
The last part of the post argues that it is, -in-bible-prophecy/
Not really. He is saying that prophecy is all about the Middle East with Jerusalem at the epicenter. He is saying prophecy is Middle East - Centric. So therefore the Antichrist of Daniel 11 is not going to rule over the West. His rule will happen among the nations of the Middle East, and most of the action will happen there.
Then he says, this Antichrist will come against the strongest fortresses.
39 And he shall deal with the strongest fortresses by the help of a foreign god. Those who acknowledge him he shall magnify with glory and honor, and he shall cause them to rule over many and shall divide the land for a price. Dan 11:39
He says, the strongest of the strongest fortresses here is America.
Who are these "strongest fortresses" [the strongest military might]"? How could the Antichrist rule the entire globe if we have strongest fortresses that fight against him? Does he truly defeat these strongest fortresses? Does he defeat the United States? Does he rule the entire globe?
The answer to this is "No."The position that every nation will fall to Antichrist is impossible since the Bible clearly states that some will even resist the Antichrist and even defeat him. The verses are rarely discussed. In Ezekiel 28, it even confirms that the most powerful nations (strongest fortresses) on earth will annihilate the Antichrist:
"Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas." (Ezekiel 28:7-8)
"They" pertains to these powerful nations and the term "terrible" implies to being "terrible in battle," "most powerful," "strongest fortresses." God will rise up several nations who will carry out His judgment and attack the Antichrist in the end. Therefore, it cannot be true that every nation of the globe will fall to the Antichrist and attack Israel.He then points out that the Nations still exist at the end of Revelation. We will see later that all the nations surrounding Jerusalem [which today are all muslim] will come into Jerusalem to inquire of God and celebrate Tabernacles after these great battles are done. Tabernacles seems to be the one feast that survives the end times.
So, he's saying, that although most of the action will be in the Middle East, including the 'one world gov't', the USA will be instrumental in defeating the Antichrist there.
You have to understand that although there is no caliphate today, muslim loyalties are always to Islam, above any country they might reside in, and once the caliphate is re-established, it will be the seat of gov't for muslims all over the world, no matter what country they reside in. Islam is not just a religion, it is a law [Sharia], and a government.
Quote from: DougI think it is upon us; it comes "as a thief in the night." This age is called "night." [John 9:4; 2 Peter 1:19]
"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." The sun represents the gospel. It is turned into darkness by false teachings, such as the idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers, introduced in the early centuries of the church.
But, wait a minute, now you are moving around in time. First you say it all pertains to Peter preaching the gospel in Jerusalem, and, at that time, Jerusalem being raised up by Christ ascending to heaven.
Now you are talking about today. Make up your mind. Did it all happen already or not? Did it all happen with Peter's speech, or not?
And you still didn't answer me why the Jews are sounding the alarm in Jerusalem, and weeping, fasting, trembling, and calling on God to help them in Joel 2, if that is referring to the 'heavenly Jerusalem.'
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
I am curious as to when anyone thinks this will happen and will we know when it does? Just what is "the fulness of the Gentiles"?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on September 09, 2012, 07:23:32 PM
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
I am curious as to when anyone thinks this will happen and will we know when it does? Just what is "the fulness of the Gentiles"?
CHB
I answered this in a post a while back, CHB. I'll go looking for it. But, the point Paul is making there, I believe, is that there is an appointed time for the Gentiles, and, after that, an appointed time for the Jews [otherwise known as the Great Tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble.]
Paul plays games with the name 'Israel,' so when he says, therefore 'all Israel' will be saved, I believe he means all 12 tribes. He's telling us, in their appointed time, the Jews will be saved.
PS CHB, you are the one who taught me about the lottery--chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. So once all the names on the lottery are brought in, the time of the Gentiles is over.
Paul tells us these Jews who will be brought in during Jacob's trouble at the end times are beloved because of their fathers [even though they may not be the elect themselves].
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. Rom 11
So, he's saying, that although most of the action will be in the Middle East, including the 'one world gov't', the USA will be instrumental in defeating the Antichrist there.
When I read the whole of chapter 11 and try to imagine or even wish that any part of this chapter could refer to the usa.
I just can't do those kinds of mental gymnastics.
:trampoline:
Quote from: dajomaco on September 09, 2012, 07:43:12 PM
So, he's saying, that although most of the action will be in the Middle East, including the 'one world gov't', the USA will be instrumental in defeating the Antichrist there.
When I read the whole of chapter 11 and try to imagine or even wish that any part of this chapter could refer to the usa.
I just can't do those kinds of mental gymnastics.
:trampoline:
I don't know what you mean. Chapter 11 of what? You mean Daniel?
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 07:51:06 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on September 09, 2012, 07:43:12 PM
So, he's saying, that although most of the action will be in the Middle East, including the 'one world gov't', the USA will be instrumental in defeating the Antichrist there.
When I read the whole of chapter 11 and try to imagine or even wish that any part of this chapter could refer to the usa.
I just can't do those kinds of mental gymnastics.
:trampoline:
I don't know what you mean. Chapter 11 of what? You mean Daniel?
yes
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.
3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.
4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts.
5 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.
6 And they shall turn the rivers far away; and the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither.
7 The paper reeds by the brooks, by the mouth of the brooks, and every thing sown by the brooks, shall wither, be driven away, and be no more.
8 The fishers also shall mourn, and all they that cast angle into the brooks shall lament, and they that spread nets upon the waters shall languish.
9 Moreover they that work in fine flax, and they that weave networks, shall be confounded.
10 And they shall be broken in the purposes thereof, all that make sluices and ponds for fish.
16 In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which he shaketh over it.
17 And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the Lord of hosts, which he hath determined against it.
18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the Lord of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
19 In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord.
20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it.
22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
--Isa 19
Walid Shoebat
He's been raised up by God to be a friend of America [my opinion] at this very critical time in our history. Listen to him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_hdPjFlU5I&feature=related
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2012, 07:12:10 PM
Quote from: DajoThe first half of this post argues that the usa is not -in-bible-prophecy/
The last part of the post argues that it is, -in-bible-prophecy/
Not really. He is saying that prophecy is all about the Middle East with Jerusalem at the epicenter. He is saying prophecy is Middle East - Centric. So therefore the Antichrist of Daniel 11 is not going to rule over the West. His rule will happen among the nations of the Middle East, and most of the action will happen there.
In that case, IMO, he is mistaken. Peter said the prophets wrote about the gospel, "the grace that should come unto you;" they wrote by "the Spirit of Christ which was in them;" and they ministered "unto us," that is, the saints who believe in Christ. Therefore, prophecy is gospel-centered. It is not primarily about national and political events of this world. Contrary to the dispensationalists, the prophets did not write for ethnic Jews in a future seven year tribulation, or for people in a future millennium. However there are many who unwisely reject or ignore these basic principles for understanding prophecy, which may be among the "keys of the kingdom" that Jesus promised to give to Peter.
Walid Shoebat's comments reveal his ignorance of the fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy (in Isa. 2:2) about Jerusalem, and mount Zion, which said that they would be raised up to the top of the mountains, above the hills.
Zechariah said,
Zechariah 12:2-3
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Since the time that Jesus ascended to heaven, to the throne of his Father, the Jerusalem to which prophecy refers is the heavenly one, not the earthly city. The above verses apply to the heavenly city, the church, the "stone" mentioned in Daniel 2:35, that grows into a mountain, and fills the earth. This is why the prophet said "all the people of the earth" gather against it, Walid Shoebat included. He wrote:
So then, let us offer a new perspective regarding the end-times verses:
Zechariah 14:2 "For I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem for battle"
Matthew 25:32 "I will also gather all nations"
Joel 3:2 "I will gather all nations"
Such verses should not be isolated. In context, Zechariah 12 only encompasses the surrounding nations:
"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves," (Zechariah 12:2-3).
In Joel 3:12 we find the same:
"Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations."
"The surrounding peoples" and "all the nations of the earth" are two references pertaining to the same people; "all the nations" and "the earth" is not the entire globe, though the translation may seem to allude to it as such. The problem is that the translation at times makes it difficult since - in English - "the earth" tends to mean "the entire globe" and in Hebrew the word "Eretz" commonly means "the land" and not "the entire globe." He wants to limit the scope of Zechariah's prophecy to the area around the earthly Jerusalem. Bad idea! He wrote:
One common argument I always get is an objection that "the earth" is meant to be "the known world," that today's "known world" must then encompass the entire globe. This assumption is false since all "Four Beasts" in Daniel chapter 7 arise out of "the Great Sea" (Daniel 7:2). "The Great Sea" is the Mediterranean region, not the entire globe. That with all the literal nations of end-times encompasses only the Middle East and Asia Minor. If the first beast (Babylon), second beast (Medo-Persia) and third beast (Greece) all were out within the "Great Sea" (Mediterranean) then the fourth beast of Daniel 7 could only pertain to the Mediterranean Sea as well.
To make the Antichrist rule a global one, many western interpreters today allegorize "The Great Sea" as "the sea of humanity." In so doing, we lose the meaning and the intent of the prophecy. This reference to "The Great Sea" cannot be an allegory pertaining to the "sea of humanity" since every verse in the Bible refers to "The Great Sea" as the Mediterranean Sea (see Num 34:6-7, Jos 1:4, Jos 9:1, Jos 15:12, Jos 15:47, Jos 23:4, Ezek 47:10, 15, 19, 20, Ezek 48: 28).He seems to want to deny what Zechariah said, which of course is unwise. Those who mistake the Jerusalem to which prophecy applies and ignore the prophecy of Isaiah 2:2, that said it would be raised up to the top of the mountains, which happened when Jesus was made Christ, make a gross error. The unfortunate Jews in the first century who rejected the teachings and warnings of the apostles, and became victims of the siege when the Romans compassed the city and destroyed it, when tens of thousands of Jews died, and many were taken captive as slaves, made a similar error. But Zechariah said, "all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces." All the theories that oppose the truth of the gospel will be cut in pieces by the sword of God's word!
He wrote, "In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness." [Zechariah 12:4] God blinds the minds of people who come against his prophets, and unfortunately, Walid Shoebat is one. The horses Zechariah refers to are people with no understanding. "Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee." [Psalm 32:9]
Doug
Quote from: DougZechariah 12:2-3
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
This prophecy exactly fits what is going on in the middle east today. What were they shouting in Egypt after the elections? Something about marching to Jerusalem to retake the city.
That movie I posted from Iran is calling for a million martyrs to retake Jerusalem and free Palestine.
You know, Doug, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
What kind of spiritual thing do you want to read into Isaiah 19? It's describing exactly what is going on in Egypt today.
QuoteHe wants to limit the scope of Zechariah's prophecy to the area around the earthly Jerusalem.
Exactly. In other words, those very nations which want Israel wiped off the face of the map. Those very nations which are becoming more radical by the day. As Walid says, do they have to kill 8 million coptic Christians before you people see it?
He's not denying Zechariah. Zechariah is describing what is happening there today to a T. It is the perfect setup for all these prophecies to come true. And, if you don't think Israel is feeling the heat, think again!
Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2012, 01:00:07 AM
Quote from: DougZechariah 12:2-3
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
This prophecy exactly fits what is going on in the middle east today. What were they shouting in Egypt after the elections? Something about marching to Jerusalem to retake the city.
That movie I posted from Iran is calling for a million martyrs to retake Jerusalem and free Palestine.
You know, Doug, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Zechariah 12 has many connections to the New Testament and the gospel. It is not about political events in Iran, or Egypt, or any other country.
Zechariah 12:1-2
The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
There is a
siege against the camp of the saints and the beloved city in Revelation too:
Revelation 20:7-9
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
This prophecy and Zechariah's prophecy are about the same events, IMO. But the warfare of the saints is spiritual.
Zechariah 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
The "burdensome stone" is the kingdom of Christ and his saints. The "burdensome stone" already fell on the Pharisees, and other Jewish leaders, in the first century.
Matthew 21
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Luke 20:17-19
And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
Zechariah 12:4
In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
I commented on this in my previous post, but I will add that 2 Peter 2:12 compares false teachers to "natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed."
"And I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah" may be compared with Acts 17:30, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"
On horses being smitten with blindness, this was also the fate of unbelieving Jews in the days of the apostles. Speaking of them, Paul said, "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." [Romans 11:7] Paul himself was physically blinded on his way to Damascas to persecute the church. The Lord said to him, "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." This could imply that he was behaving like a horse!
Zechariah 12:5-6
And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
I interpret "the governors of Judah" to mean the apostles, as Jesus identified Judah with salvation, and the saints when he said, "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]
Jesus said, "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" [Luke 12:49] It was the apostles who spread the fire to all nations. Jerusalem is inhabited, in her place in heaven. These verses could not very well apply to the earthly city, which was destroyed in 70 A.D.
Zechariah 12:7
The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Interpreting this in the light of the New Testament, the "tents of Judah" refers to the church, the "camp of the saints." They are the firstfruits; James said, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." [James 1:18]
James also identified the tabernacle of David with the church, quoting a prophecy in Amos 9:11.
Acts 15:15-17
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Zechariah 12:8
In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
There is no way this could describe Jews who reject Jesus as the Messiah; it refers to faithful Christians. Paul said, "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" [Romans 8:31-32]
Zechariah 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
This did not happen in 70 A.D. It does not apply to the earthly Jerusalem; there is no promise of God's protection for it. This promise applies to the saints, the heavenly Jerusalem. Here is a New Testament promise for the church:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
This corresponds to the prophecy in Revelation.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
The ones who pierced Jesus does not refer to Jews, especially, as it was probably a Roman who pierced his side with a spear. It refers to all Christians, as Isaiah spoke of Christ when he said:
Isaiah 53:6-8
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Every one of us, I think, is meant by "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced." Isaiah wrote,
Isaiah 53:12
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Zechariah 12:11-14
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
This describes the effects when God's Spirit is poured out on the church. It happened in the first century in the days of the apostles, but it is also foretold to occur at the end our age. It is what Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse:
Matthew 24:30-31
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Doug you are totally into what is called 'replacement theology,' that the church replaces Israel. I get it. But I disagree.
As Paul tells us in Romans 11, the calling and gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE.
Does Psalm 83 describe next Mideast war?
Exclusive: Joel Richardson identifies line of prophecy thinking that's 'a total fantasy'
Published: 01/27/2012 at 7:39 PM
By Joel Richardson
Throughout the Christian church, an idea that has gained much traction in recent years holds that the next major Middle Eastern war is described in Psalm 83. According to this view, a contingent of Arab nations that immediately surround Israel will soon make an attempt to invade her, only to be utterly defeated by the Israeli Defense Forces. Many even believe that as a result of this great victory over her neighbors, Israel will literally come to occupy the nations of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. This growing view also holds that after this period of victory and peace, another massive war, this time described in Ezekiel 38 and 39, will follow. If one peruses several of the larger online Bible prophecy discussion forums, it will quickly become apparent just how widespread this view truly is among prophecy students.
But few of these students of prophecy are aware of the many problems with this view. For the past few years, I've been highlighting several of these problems, but recently, both Dr. Thomas Ice, the executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, and Pastor Mark Hitchcock, another very well-accomplished prophecy teacher and author, have also articulated several of the problems with the popular interpretation of Psalm 83.
The first problem is that most scholars reject the idea that Psalm 83 is even an actual prophecy, but is simply, "a national prayer of lament." Such a Psalm would not be considered a prophecy in the sense of that which was uttered by the biblical prophets.
Second, even if one does consider Psalm 83 to be a prophecy in the proper sense, the primary reason many have come to accept this two-war scenario is because of the differences between the nations listed in Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 and 39. While Psalm 83 lists what are often referred to as the "inner circle" of nations that immediately border Israel, Ezekiel 38 and 39 lists a series of nations that form a larger "outer ring" around Israel including Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Libya and, many argue, Russia. But a closer examination of both texts reveals that it is far more likely that these two passages speak of the same war.
If one examines the list of nations in Psalm 83, few analysts include the nation of Turkey. Yet Asaph, the writer of this Psalm, mentions that "Assyria" (v.8) will join this coalition. When this Psalm was written during the reign of King David, the Kingdom of Assyria included portions of modern-day Iraq, Syria and Turkey. Analysts of Psalm 83 have included both Iraq and Syria in their coming invasion scenario, but never Turkey. Yet the reality is that the Assyrian Kingdom during the time the Psalm was written included quite a bit more of modern Turkey than Syria. This is significant, of course, because Turkey features so prominently in the Ezekiel 38 & 39 prophecy.
Another name mentioned in Psalm 83 are the Ishmaelites. Many analysts of Psalm 83 use this name to point exclusively to the nation of Saudi Arabia. However, many Arabs today trace their lineage back to Ishmael. Muhammad himself, the founder of Islam, believed himself to be a direct descendant of Ishmael. Depending on how one interprets the term "Ishmaelites," then, the inclusion of this term could point us to much of the Islamic Middle East and North Africa, including Libya and Sudan. These nations also feature prominently in the Ezekiel 38 and 39 prophecy.
Another problem with looking to seeming surface differences between these two texts is that many scholars and prophecy analysts believe that Ezekiel 38 and 39′s list of nations is anything but comprehensive. In fact, as Mark Hitchcock points out, the prophet concludes his list of nations by adding the phrase, "and many nations with you." In other words, Ezekiel only listed one major modern nation from each of the four corners of the compass so as to highlight the massive scale of this coming regional invasion. The following map represents the nations specified by Ezekiel revealing the likelihood of this interpretation.
The invading nations of the Ezekiel 38 and 39 Prophecy. Turkey: north, Iran: east, Sudan: south, and Libya: West.
In the end, if one understands Ezekiel 38 and 39 more accurately, it would seem to be pointing to a massive regional war against Israel including "many nations" not necessarily specified or mentioned within the text. And if we consider the nations mentioned in Psalm 83, if it is an actual prophecy, then it is also far more likely to be speaking of a much larger invasion than most students of prophecy have understood it.
Beyond this, Mark Hitchcock also lists several more similarities between these two texts, further suggesting that they are ultimately pointing to a singular war:
Both texts speak of a plan coming into the minds of the participants or the leader to invade Israel (Psalm 83:4,5; Ezekiel 38:10).
Both texts speak of the purpose of the invasion to wipe Israel out as a nation (Psalm 83:4; Ezekiel 38:9).
Both texts speak of the armies actually turning on each other and attacking one another while in the land (Psalm 83:9; Judges 7; Ezekiel 38:21).
Both texts speak of the judgment of God on the armies through fire (Psalm 83:14; Ezekiel 38:22).
Both texts speak of the result of these wars being that the invaders come to know the Lord in their defeat (Psalm 83:18; Ezekiel 39:7).
In the end, it is clear that tensions in the Middle East are very high. War could be just around the corner. We must pray that this is averted! The day will surely come when all of the prophecies of the Bible will be completely fulfilled. But for now, I am of the opinion that the scenario many students of prophecy are looking for, namely the soon victory of Israel over her neighbors and the subsequent occupation of those lands is a total fantasy. When Jesus returns, only then will genuine justice fill the region. But until then, we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/01/does-psalm-83-describe-next-mideast-war/
Isreal IS MY FIRSTBORN SON...all mankind raised up into eternal life in Christ is ISREAL.MY FIRSTBORN SON
The testimony of Jesu7s Christ is the spirit of prophecy.
All Isreal will be saved through the salvation of ALL mankind which was bought with the blood of the Lamb. It is HIS LIFE THAT WILL NOT SEE CORRUPTION
DO NOT BE AFRAID,I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST.I AM THE LIVING ONE,I WAS DEAD,AND BEHOLD I AM ALIVE FOR EVER AND EVER!
THE ONLY BEGOTTON OF THE FATHER...BORN OF THE WILL OF GOD
AND THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME THAT I SHALL LOSE NONE OF ALL THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME
BUT RAISE THEM UP AT THE LAST DAY
FOR MY FATHER'S WILL IS THAT EVERYONE WHO LOOKS TO THE SON AND BELEIVES IN HIM SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY
THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel:
Write in a book all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of it."
4 These are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah:
5 "Thus says the Lord:
We have heard a cry of panic,
of terror, and no peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
can a man bear a child?
Why then do I see every man
with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor?
Why has every face turned pale?
7 Alas! That day is so great
there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
yet he shall be saved out of it.
8 "And it shall come to pass in that day, declares the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off your neck, and I will burst your bonds, and foreigners shall no more make a servant of him. 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.
10 "Then fear not, O Jacob my servant, declares the Lord,
nor be dismayed, O Israel;
for behold, I will save you from far away,
and your offspring from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease,
and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you to save you,
declares the Lord;
I will make a full end of all the nations
among whom I scattered you,
but of you I will not make a full end.
I will discipline you in just measure,
and I will by no means leave you unpunished.
12 "For thus says the Lord:
Your hurt is incurable,
and your wound is grievous.
13 There is none to uphold your cause,
no medicine for your wound,
no healing for you.
14 All your lovers have forgotten you;
they care nothing for you;
for I have dealt you the blow of an enemy,
the punishment of a merciless foe,
because your guilt is great,
because your sins are flagrant.
15 Why do you cry out over your hurt?
Your pain is incurable.
Because your guilt is great,
because your sins are flagrant,
I have done these things to you.
16 Therefore all who devour you shall be devoured,
and all your foes, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
those who plunder you shall be plundered,
and all who prey on you I will make a prey.
17 For I will restore health to you,
and your wounds I will heal,
declares the Lord,
because they have called you an outcast:
'It is Zion, for whom no one cares!'
18 "Thus says the Lord:
Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob
and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city shall be rebuilt on its mound,
and the palace shall stand where it used to be.
19 Out of them shall come songs of thanksgiving,
and the voices of those who celebrate.
I will multiply them, and they shall not be few;
I will make them honored, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children shall be as they were of old,
and their congregation shall be established before me,
and I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their prince shall be one of themselves;
their ruler shall come out from their midst;
I will make him draw near, and he shall approach me,
for who would dare of himself to approach me?
declares the Lord.
22 And you shall be my people,
and I will be your God."
23 Behold the storm of the Lord!
Wrath has gone forth,
a whirling tempest;
it will burst upon the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he has executed and accomplished
the intentions of his mind.
In the latter days you will understand this.
--Jer 30
bEFORE THE CREATURE WAS SUBJECTED TO VANITY[ALL THE STARS FELL FROM HEAVEN] THE CREATURE HELD DOMINION OVER
THE FISH OF THE SEA THE BIRDS OF THE AIR,OVER THE LIVESTOCK OVER ALL THE EARTH OVER ALL THE CREATURES THAT MOVE ALONG THE
GROUND.
THE FOREIGNERS THAT MAKE A SERVANT OF FALLEN ADAM IS THE SIN OUR FLESH SERVES AS MASTER
ALL WHO DEVOUR YOU ..BESPEAKS OF THE SERPENT'S SENTENCE TO CRAWL ON BELLY AND EAT DUST ALL IT'S LIFE...
FOR 1 pETER 5;8 DECLARES YOUR ENEMIES PROWLING AROUND LIKE A ROARING LION,LOOKING FOR4 SOMEONE TO DEVOUR
THE ADVERSARY WAS BADLY MIS-TAKEN WHEN HE THOUGHT GOD NO LONGER CARED FOR FALLEN ADAM...IT IS WRITTEN..
YOU SHALL BE CALLED SERCHED FOR..YOUR LAND MARRIED[LIKE A SHEPHERD THAT SEARCHES FOR HIS SHEEP ON A DARK AND CLOUDY DAY]
"Therefore, behold, I will allure her, Bring her into the wilderness And speak kindly to her. "Then I will give her her vineyards from there, And the valley of Achor as a door of hope. And she will sing there as in the days of her youth, As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt. "It will come about in that day," declares the LORD, "That you will call Me Ishi And will no longer call Me Baali. "For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, So that they will be mentioned by their names no more. "In that day I will also make a covenant for them With the beasts of the field, The birds of the sky And the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword and war from the land, And will make them lie down in safety. "I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice, In lovingkindness and in compassion, And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know the LORD. "It will come about in that day that I will respond," declares the LORD. "I will respond to the heavens, and they will respond to the earth, And the earth will respond to the grain, to the new wine and to the oil, And they will respond to Jezreel. "I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, 'You are my God!'"
(Hos 2:14-23)
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us. "He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him. "So let us know, let us press on to know the LORD. His going forth is as certain as the dawn; And He will come to us like the rain, Like the spring rain watering the earth."
(Hos 6:1-3)
Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2012, 03:51:52 AM
Does Psalm 83 describe next Mideast war?
Exclusive: Joel Richardson identifies line of prophecy thinking that's 'a total fantasy'
Published: 01/27/2012 at 7:39 PM
In the end, it is clear that tensions in the Middle East are very high. War could be just around the corner. We must pray that this is averted! The day will surely come when all of the prophecies of the Bible will be completely fulfilled. But for now, I am of the opinion that the scenario many students of prophecy are looking for, namely the soon victory of Israel over her neighbors and the subsequent occupation of those lands is a total fantasy. When Jesus returns, only then will genuine justice fill the region. But until then, we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/01/does-psalm-83-describe-next-mideast-war/
So many differences of opinion by those reading the same words of Holy Writ means just one thing, that we are not yet close enough to the "latter days" to fully understand how all these issues will culminate in events yet to come. The complicating factor in all this is the fact every Christian in the church wants Christ to come within their lifetime, this is why we see such inconsistency in interpretations of prophecy.
Jer 30:24 tells us very clearly when prophecies will be clearly understood, until then we are as we always have been, on a wandering pathway with no clear end in sight. The Christian Church often thinks it sees the end of the pathway only to discover it is just a rise to the top of the next hill over which it could not previously view the continuing pathway on the other side of the hill, and this pathway will continue to leave most all of us meandering until such a time is imminent for its' fulfillment, which almost certainly appears to not be in the generations of our lifetimes. It will occur in the generation that sees the messages delivered to the seven Jewish ecclesias of Revelation, the generation that sees real synagogues in those cities will be the generation that sees the "latter days", we are not that generation.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 10, 2012, 05:45:11 PM
"Therefore, behold, I will allure her, Bring her into the wilderness And speak kindly to her. "Then I will give her her vineyards from there, And the valley of Achor as a door of hope. And she will sing there as in the days of her youth, As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt. "It will come about in that day," declares the LORD, "That you will call Me Ishi And will no longer call Me Baali. "For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, So that they will be mentioned by their names no more. "In that day I will also make a covenant for them With the beasts of the field, The birds of the sky And the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword and war from the land, And will make them lie down in safety. "I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice, In lovingkindness and in compassion, And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know the LORD. "It will come about in that day that I will respond," declares the LORD. "I will respond to the heavens, and they will respond to the earth, And the earth will respond to the grain, to the new wine and to the oil, And they will respond to Jezreel. "I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, 'You are my God!'"
(Hos 2:14-23)
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us. "He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him. "So let us know, let us press on to know the LORD. His going forth is as certain as the dawn; And He will come to us like the rain, Like the spring rain watering the earth."
(Hos 6:1-3)
That sounds like the muslims, doesn't it? He puts her in the desert. She will call him ISHI--[ISSA]. ISHI is husband. Baali is master. No more will she call him Baali. Muslims worship Baal/Satan [Allah] according to Walid Shoebat who was a muslim--he gives a long list of reasons to prove this.
All these muslim countries turn to God after the final battle and end of the Age.
22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
--Isa 19
Ezekiel 38, 39 The Battle of Gog and Magog
May 19, 2009
by Joel Richardson
I. PASSAGE OVERVIEW:
A. Ezekiel 38-39 is one of the most critical and most essential end time passages to grasp. Yet it is one of the most significantly misunderstood and misinterpreted of all of the significant end time passages.
B. While several other passages use historical types or foreshadows (Antiochus Epiphanes, Assyrian, etc.), to give us information about the Antichrist, in this passage God addresses the Antichrist directly. It is a straight forward futuristic prophecy without any historical partial fulfillment. Where the Antichrist comes from as well as the primary nations that will make up his ten nation coalition are all named quite clearly.
C. Portrayed in this passage is a large end time coalition of nations primarily from the Middle East and northern Africa joining together to invade the land of Israel. The leader of this coalition is called Gog. The invasion concludes with a series of both natural and supernatural events that leave the invading armies shattered in the land of Israel.
II. ALL PROPHETS ESSENTIALLY SPOKE OF THE SAME THING, TOLD THE SAME GENERAL STORY, ALBEIT USING VARIOUS LENSES AND SHARING VARIOUS EMPHASISҍ
A. The general story told by all of the prophets is fairly simple. Each one of the elements of the following story are repeated numerous times throughout the prophets.
B. Today, by and large, the Church is generally very Old Testament / Tanakh illiterate. If we simply understand the commonly repeated themes throughout the prophets, then we recognize that this is simply the same story that has been told over and over again.
1. In the last days,
2. A large coalition of nations from the Middle East (neighbors of Israel),
3. Will gather together and invade Israel.
4. They will be led by an evil world leader (The Antichrist).
5. They will kill a majority of the inhabitants of the land.
6. Many of the Jews that survive will be taken captive.
7. In the midst of this darkest time in Israel's history, God Himself, through the Messiah will intervene, appear and deliver His people, the Jewish nation.
8. He will physically defeat all of the enemies of Israel (who He calls His enemies).
9. He will deliver the captives.
10. He will march up from Egypt, as the greater Moses and ascend to Jerusalem.
11. He will re-establish the throne of David on Mt Zion.
12. He will lead Israel in plundering the nations that plundered them.
13. Israel's borders will be greatly expanded.
14. The children of Israel's enemies will come and repent before them.
15. He will restructure the authority structure and leadership of the whole earth.
16. He will rule the world with an iron scepter for an extended period of time (a thousand years.)
17. The earth will be filled with the knowledge of God.
18. All of the promises made to Israel will be fulfilled.
19. Jews and Gentiles will live as one new people under His leadership.
III. PROOFS THAT GOG IS THE ANTICHRIST
A. REASON #1: THE NUMEROUS SHARED COMMONALITIES BETWEEN GOG AND THE ANTICHRIST
1. THE DEFEAT OF BOTH GOG AND ANTICHRIST ARE FOLLOWED BY THE FEAST OF GOD
Gog:
Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: 'Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth... At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,' declares Yahweh the Sovereign. Ezekiel 39:17-20
Antichrist:
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." (Revelation 19:17)
2. BOTH ARMIES ATTACK TURN ON EACH OTHER.
Gog
I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man's sword will be against his brother. I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed. -Ezekiel 38:21-22
Antichrist
On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other. -Zechariah 14:12-13
3. BOTH COALITIONS CONSIST OF THE SAME NATIONS:
Antichrist:
and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his (Antichrist's) steps.
Daniel 11:43
Gog:
Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet.
Ezekiel 38:5
4. BOTH GOG AND THE ANTICHRIST TAKE SPOIL, LOOT AND PLUNDER:
Antichrist:
Woe to the Assyrian (the Antichrist), the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation; I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets. But this is not what he intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations. (Isaiah 10:5-7)
When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them. He will distribute plunder, loot, and wealth among his followers. (Daniel 11:24)
Gog:
On that day you will make an evil plan: You will say, I will go up against a land of unwalled villages to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land. (Ezekiel 38:10-13)
SIDE NOTE:
When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them. He will distribute plunder, loot, and wealth among his followers. (Daniel 11:24)
A. The Antichrist will be a populist, wealth spreader. He will want to spread the wealth around among his followers. Every dictator in history uses the concept of spreading the wealth to the poor, pseudo justice issues to curry favor with the peoples. Hugo Chavez, Communism, Fidel Castro, etc etc etc.
B. The Early Church Understood this: the Antichrist pretends that he vindicates the poor. Ireneaus (c. 202)
C. Muslims Await a Populist Messiah:
1. In the last-days of the Islamic community, the Mahdi will appear... He will give away wealth profusely, flocks will be in abundance, and the Muslim community will be large and honored – Sahih Hakim Mustadrak
2. In those years my community will enjoy a time of happiness such as they have never experienced before. A man will stand and say, give to me Mahdi! and he will say, Take. At-Tabarani
5. BOTH GOG AND ANTICHRIST ARE KINGS THAT COME FROM THE NORTH.
Antichrist:
At the time of the end the king of the South (Egypt) will engage him in battle, and the king of the North (Antichrist) will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He (Antichrist) will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. (Daniel 11:40-42)
" And I will never again make you a reproach among the nations. I will drive the northern army far from you, pushing it into a parched and barren land, with its front columns going into the eastern sea and those in the rear into the western sea. And its stench will go up; its smell will rise." (Joel 2:19-20)
Gog:
In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. (Ezekiel 38:14-16; 39:1-3)
6. BOTH ARMAGEDDON AND THE BATTLE OF GOG END WITH A GREAT EARTHQUAKE
The destruction of both Gog and the Antichrist is accompanied by an earthquake of unparalleled proportions. This is not a small event. Every creature on the Earth, all men will shake at the presence of Jesus. This same event is described in the Book of Revelation as occurring when the armies of Antichrist are gathered together in and against Israel:
7. BOTH ALSO EXPERIENCE GREAT HAILSTONES
Antichrist:
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Then there came from the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. (Revelation 16:16-21)
Gog:
I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Ezekiel 38:22)
8. BOTH GOG AND ANTICHRIST COME AT A TIME OF PEACE AND UNSUSPECTINGNESS
Antichrist:
When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them (Daniel 11:24)
This is also in accordance with the false peace that Israel will experience as a result of the AC's bogus peace treaty with Israel. While Ezekiel 38,39 portrays the final battle in very general and broad terms (wide angle lense) , Revelation 19 portrays it in very specific and focused terms. This is common throughout the prophets. It is the prophetic perspective / mountain peak principle that Clarence Larkin spoke so eloquently about long ago.
Gog:
You will say, I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people,all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. (Ezekiel 38:12, 13)
D. REASON # 4: ISRAEL AND THE NATIONS COME TO FAITH: AFTER THIS EVENT, GOD's NAME WILL NO LONGER BE PROFANED.
1. God Himself says that after the defeat of Gog and his armies, all of the Gentile Nations as well as Israel will be convicted of their unbelief and will know that He (Yahweh) is God:
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. (Ezekiel 39:22)
2. This can only happen after they accept their Messiah Jesus. Jesus told them that they would not see him again until they recognized Him as being from God.
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Luke 13:35, Matthew 23:39)
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem... And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:9-10)
3. Not Only Israel, but all nations will come to faith. God will NO LONGER allow his name to be blasphemed.
And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am Yahweh.' I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am Yahweh." 'I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I Yahweh am the Holy One in Israel. It is coming! It will surely take place, declares Yahweh the Sovereign. This is the day I have spoken of. (Ezekiel 38:23-39:7-8)
4. Everything about the events and Scriptural language in this passage indicate that this war is no mere opening act to the Great Tribulation, but is rather the magnificent capstone of that period that will have a decisive effect on all nations worldwide.
6. The description of what will take place after Gog's destruction is one that can only be applied to that period after Christ returns and has utterly destroyed all of His enemies.
http://archives.joelstrumpet.com/?p=1973
Molly,
in Ezek 38 & 39 there is absolutely no mention of AntiChrist or any semblance of such a personality. Why is this?
If you would kindly read Rev 20:7-9, you will read about this invasion when it occurs at the end of the Millenium, not before it begins. You will please read : And when the thousand years are expitred, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and shall go out & deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog & Magogto gather them together to battle: the number of whom is the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the camp of the saints and the beloved city......."
Why must you insist this invasion occurs with the AntiChrist in charge of Gog's & Magog's forces when verse 10 clearly states that after Satan (not AntiChrist) fails to use these forces to crush Israel after the Millenium, he is then cast into "the lake of fire & brimstone where the beast & false prophet are....." Do you follow me here? The scripture cannot be more clear that AntiChrist is not leading these armies, he has already been dispatched to the lake of fire over 1000 years before this attempted invasion occurs.
Hi Paul, there are two battles of Armaggedon--one before the 1000 year rule of Christ
and one after. You can see in Rev 17, a lot of references to Daniel regarding the Antichrist and the battle and who is fighting it. Then in Revelation 20, Satan is thrown into the Pit. Then he is released and the battle is fought again after 1000 years. So--the same battle led by Gog [Satan/Antichrist] is fought twice.
Paul, the implication is that during the next Age, or the 1000 year millenium reign, there will be nations that will not be following Christ, even though he will be ruling and reigning on earth. The nations that are following Christ will bring their glory into Jerusalem, the holy city. The rest will not be allowed inside.
Paul, the New Testament is very clear that this evil leader in the Old Testament is Satan. The Old Testament is a little more circumspect, calling him Gog, the little horn, Lucifer, etc.
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
--Rev 17
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
--Rev 20
8. BOTH GOG AND ANTICHRIST COME AT A TIME OF PEACE AND UNSUSPECTINGNESS.
:When I hear that there is complete peace in the Middle East.
When there is an absence of speculation about the antichrist.
That's when I should look out? :popout
Quote from: Paul L on September 09, 2012, 03:31:55 PM
Quote from: thinktank on September 09, 2012, 04:52:51 AM
Yes, and the time will come when the (gentile) church will need the Jew, that the Jew will finally help the gentile, that he will hold on to the skirt of a Jew as he has heard that God is with the Jew as Israel becomes Gods kingdom on earth, the mightiest nation upon the earth, fulfilling scripture.
And you have just written exactly what Rev 20:7-9 is all about, except for your use of the word "church" where I have inserted "gentile" alongside of it. Most Christians simply do not understand what the 1000 years of the Millenium is about. It is about Christ only beginning to restructure the order of the world's ruling elite, the prelude to this is the more ominous task of first doing away with the armies of the false messiah to Israel (so-called AntiChrist) by the end of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.
The biggest share of time consumed during the 1000 years of the Millenium, is rebuilding Israel and returning the 12 tribes of Israel from the lands of the Gentiles in order that it will become Christ's proclamation to the world for dissemination of the gospel. After the 1000 years are over & Gog & Magog & all the remainder of men's governments are finally dispatched to the ashbin of human history, then the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to find it's place on Earth, it will be
only then there will be no more war on Earth.
[/quote]I am kind of confused
about the order of events.
The common theory is that Israel gets saved AFTER armageddon.
However my theory or revelation is that Israel gets saved Before Armageddon.
Which splits Israel into 2
1st piece are the Virgin bride who follow the Lamb wherever he goes 144,00 from the tribes. The other part goes into the wilderness to be fed for a season[innumerable folks], the exact time space needed to survive during antichrists reign. (inn)umerable. rev12 rev6 These are all faithfull Messianic Israelites, possibly the church or amongst them (forget about church for now)
The second pieces of Israel are slaves and sinners who live in the kingdom of the antichrist.
God says at the end to come out of her my people lest you become partakes of her plagues ,VIA an angel of GOD NOT via tv.
God will destroy Babylon again and Israel must escape slavery from Babylon and escape the king of Babylon just like Daniel.
However just before Babylonia is a great kingdom, Israel becomes a mighty nation.
I am certain that the 4 horsmen have something to do with Israel becoming Gods hammer of the whole Earth, before antichrist appears.
So I think Israel will hammer a few nations and maybe Gogs defeat has something to do with it, just before antichrist comes in to play, to war with Israel. But antichrist cannot defeat Israels army, until he infiltrates and defiles the Holy temple of their GOd.
Gog and Magog post millenium, sounds like a possible rematch as this time Gog joins with magog, perhaps it means mad-gog! because he lost pre millenium
Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2012, 11:51:40 PM
Hi Paul, there are two battles of Armaggedon--one before the 1000 year rule of Christ and one after. You can see in Rev 17, a lot of references to Daniel regarding the Antichrist and the battle and who is fighting it.
Two battles of Armageddon? Where do I find this?
I know what you are trying to say but that is an ad hoc explanation because you continue to overlook the fact that Rev 20:10 clearly states Satan will join AntiChrist in the lake of fire "where the beast and false prophet are". Satan follows AntiChrist into the lake of fire a thousand years after he (AntiChrist) was cast into it. Satan was never put into the fiery lake at the beginning of the Millenium, he was bound with chains & placed into a bottomless pit, not the same place where the false prophet & beast went.
What scripture states Gog & Antichrist are the same individuals? Gog is a country, a geographical place, not a person. One is a person who murders people, the other a country
intending to do so, but doesn't get away with it as AntiChrist did, so for that reason alone they cannot be the same two entities.
It is necessary to understand
timelines here, for Satan & AntiChrist they are the same only during the 70th week, but not after it, that is what Rev 20:10 explains to us, the timeline of the careers of Satan & AntiChrist diverge totally at the start of the Millenium.
I thought gog was the prince of Meshel and Tubal
Quote from: thinktank on September 11, 2012, 12:53:01 AM
Quote from: Paul L on September 09, 2012, 03:31:55 PM
Quote from: thinktank on September 09, 2012, 04:52:51 AM
Yes, and the time will come when the (gentile) church will need the Jew, that the Jew will finally help the gentile, that he will hold on to the skirt of a Jew as he has heard that God is with the Jew as Israel becomes Gods kingdom on earth, the mightiest nation upon the earth, fulfilling scripture.
And you have just written exactly what Rev 20:7-9 is all about, except for your use of the word "church" where I have inserted "gentile" alongside of it. Most Christians simply do not understand what the 1000 years of the Millenium is about. It is about Christ only beginning to restructure the order of the world's ruling elite, the prelude to this is the more ominous task of first doing away with the armies of the false messiah to Israel (so-called AntiChrist) by the end of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.
The biggest share of time consumed during the 1000 years of the Millenium, is rebuilding Israel and returning the 12 tribes of Israel from the lands of the Gentiles in order that it will become Christ's proclamation to the world for dissemination of the gospel. After the 1000 years are over & Gog & Magog & all the remainder of men's governments are finally dispatched to the ashbin of human history, then the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to find it's place on Earth, it will be only then there will be no more war on Earth.
I am kind of confused
about the order of events.
QuoteThe common theory is that Israel gets saved AFTER armageddon.
There are the 144000 & the faithful woman of Rev 12 before Armageddon that are saved, but the majority of Israelites are saved after Armageddon.
QuoteHowever my theory or revelation is that Israel gets saved Before Armageddon.
The 144000 & the woman's company of Israelites who flee the city of Jerusalem to a place of safety
QuoteWhich splits Israel into 2
1st piece are the Virgin bride who follow the Lamb wherever he goes 144,00 from the tribes. The other part goes into the wilderness to be fed for a season[innumerable folks], the exact time space needed to survive during antichrists reign. (inn)umerable. rev12 rev6 These are all faithfull Messianic Israelites, possibly the church or amongst them (forget about church for now)
The second pieces of Israel are slaves and sinners who live in the kingdom of the antichrist.
144000 Israelites are saved before Armageddon as well as the woman who flees to the wilderness, we're not given their number. The 144000 came out of the faithful woman who later flees to the wilderness with her additional numbers of faithful Israelites who saved before Armageddon occurs.
QuoteSo I think Israel will hammer a few nations and maybe Gogs defeat has something to do with it, just before antichrist comes in to play, to war with Israel. But antichrist cannot defeat Israels army, until he infiltrates and defiles the Holy temple of their GOd.
Gog's defeat does not occur until after the Millenium is finished, Rev 20:7-9, details of this defeat are given in Ezek 38 & 39.
QuoteGog and Magog post millenium, sounds like a possible rematch as this time Gog joins with magog, perhaps it means mad-gog! because he lost pre millenium
No rematch, it's a one time event at the conclusion of the Millenium as I pointed out above
Quote from: thinktank on September 11, 2012, 01:30:15 AM
I thought gog was the prince of Meshel and Tubal
He is, and a supernatural Prince, at that. Like Daniel's Prince of Persia who held up the angel Gabriel for 21 days and so, delayed him from reaching Daniel sooner. The Antichrist will be an indwelt man, Satan mimicing God.
Remember Meshech and Tubal are in Turkey which is called the seat of Satan.
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
--Daniel 10
Quote from: TTAnd you have just written exactly what Rev 20:7-9 is all about, except for your use of the word "church" where I have inserted "gentile" alongside of it. Most Christians simply do not understand what the 1000 years of the Millenium is about. It is about Christ only beginning to restructure the order of the world's ruling elite, the prelude to this is the more ominous task of first doing away with the armies of the false messiah to Israel (so-called AntiChrist) by the end of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.
This is something that I am just beginning to understand, myself, and it explains why people are still outside the city at the end of the book.
Quote from: PaulNo rematch, it's a one time event at the conclusion of the Millenium as I pointed out above
Go look more closely and you will see. There are two battles equal in scope, one at the end of this age, one at the end of the next age.
The Battle of Gog of Magog & the Return of Jesus
September 10, 2012
Joel Richardson
The Book of Revelation, chapter 19, contains what is perhaps the most famous Biblical passage concerning the return of Jesus. There, Jesus the Messiah is seen to burst forth from heaven, riding on a white horse with the armies of heaven following Him. But as powerful and as well known as this prophetic portrayal of the return of Jesus is, few are aware of the fact that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39, most often known as the Battle of Gog of Magog, also concludes with the return of Jesus. In fact, it can be said that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is in fact, the Armageddon of the Old Testament.
Although many popular interpreters have wrongly understood this passage to conclude several years before the return of Jesus, any honest assessment of the text simply does not allow for this. But among the many reasons to reject a pre-Day of the LORD conclusion of this prophecy, one of the simplest, is because it concludes with the LORD actually physically present in the land of Israel.
That's right, Ezekiel reveals that at the conclusion of Gog's invasion, Jesus the Messiah is physically present on the ground, in the land. Consider the following passage:
"For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, on that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence" —Ezekiel 38:19–20
According to this text, the Lord Himself says that throughout the earth, both people and animals will "quake at [His] presence." The word used for presence here is the Hebrew word paneh. Paneh is a reference to the actual face of someone or something. When God says that the people of the earth will quake at His paneh, He is saying that they will be terrified because of His actual physical presence, on the ground, in the land of Israel.
Concerning the word paneh, The New Unger's Bible Dictionary says, "The presence (face) of Jehovah is Jehovah in his own personal presence." The New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words says, "In the OT, being in God's or another's presence is indicated by a preposition (l) prefixed to the Hebrew word panim ('face'). The thought is to be 'before the face of the person."
Paneh is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the actual presence of God. Jacob, for instance, after wrestling with the Angel of the Lord, referred to seeing God face-to-face: "So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, 'For I have seen God face [paneh] to face [paneh], and yet my life has been delivered'" (Genesis 32:30).
It is also interesting to note that in place of the Hebrew paneh, the Septuagint used the Greek word prosopon. Prosopon is one of two words commonly used in the New Testament to refer to actual presence. The other word is parousia, which is commonly associated with the Second Coming. To convey actual presence, between parousia and prosopon, prosopon is the more powerful term. While parousia most often implies coming, prosopon implies actual face-to-face presence. As Jesus is coming on the clouds, this is His parousia, but once He has actually arrived, then the word prosopon is used.
An excellent example of the New Testament usage of prosopon is a scene where the righteous are actually looking upon the face of God in the eternal city:
"No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face [prosopon], and his name will be on their foreheads" —Revelation 22:4
Ezekiel's description of people quaking in fear of God's face reveals that at the conclusion of the Battle of Gog and Magog, Jesus the Messiah, God incarnate, is physically present on the earth, in the land of Israel.
The Holy One in Israel
Further evidence for the physical presence of Jesus at the conclusion of this battle is seen in Ezekiel 39:7:
"And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel."
This is the only time that the phrase "the LORD, the Holy One in Israel" is used in the whole Bible. It is the Hebrew YHVH qadowsh baYisra'el. A similar phrase, "the Holy One of Israel" (qadowsh Yisra'el), is used thirty-one times in Scripture (e.g., Isaiah 12:6; 43:3; 55:5; 60:9, etc.). But here in Ezekiel, the Lord is not merely the Holy One of Israel; He is actually present in the land and on the ground! While the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.
Other biblical commentators have also taken special note of God's presence in Ezekiel's oracle as evidence that it is a parallel to the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19. Apologist Dave Hunt for instance has stated:
"There is no doubt, from both Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1 and 19, that this personal coming of Yahweh to rescue His people and to destroy Antichrist and his armies takes place at Armageddon. It is significant, then, that similar language concerning the personal presence of God is found in Ezekiel 38 and 39, thus identifying the event described there as Armageddon also."
Hunt's observations are correct. But while most conservative, premillennialist, futurist interpreters who take Scripture at face value and use a literalist method of interpretation will interpret the entirety of this passage in a literal fashion, when it comes to these two texts which show that God is actually present and in the land, many suddenly switch to an allegorical and non-literalist interpretation, without any justification for doing so.
If one uses a consistent literal method to interpret Ezekiel 38 and 39, then one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah. And as I have said before, if this is the case, within the world of Biblical prophecy, this absolutely changes everything. It is high time for the Church to begin wrestling with the implications.
http://archives.joelstrumpet.com/?p=4042
Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2012, 03:18:12 AM
Quote from: PaulNo rematch, it's a one time event at the conclusion of the Millenium as I pointed out above
Go look more closely and you will see. There are two battles equal in scope, one at the end of this age, one at the end of the next age.
True, there are two battles, different armies. The first battle of Armegeddon is the one in which AntiChrist & his armies are subdued, resulting in the AntiChrist going to the lake of fire at the start of the Millenium.
At the conclusion of the Millenium the second battle is enjoined. After Israel has dwelt safely in the land for a thousand years, Satan has dispensed with the use of human surrogates to do his bidding, so he personally takes charge because he thinks he can do a better job. He finds willing dupes in and around the area of present day Turkey to join his army (Gog & Magog). He personally takes charge & marches them into Israel, loses the battle then he gets pitched into the lake of fire to join his failed human surrogates of 1000 years earlier.
I might add in each of the above two cases it was Christ who fought the battles for Israel. Christ does not fight just one battle, while both are exactly the same as far as intent goes on the part of the antagonists, they are two different antagonists. War is war, all battles are fought about the same way, it's just that the ground they are fought on have different locations, as is the case here.
Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2012, 03:39:04 AM
The Battle of Gog of Magog & the Return of Jesus
September 10, 2012
Joel Richardson
Quote...... few are aware of the fact that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39, most often known as the Battle of Gog of Magog, also concludes with the return of Jesus. In fact, it can be said that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is in fact, the Armageddon of the Old Testament.
Where does Ezek 38 & 39 state that? Armegeddon is inside of Israel where Antichrist's armies are defeated. Satan's armies of Gog & Magog don't seem to be so accurately pinpointed, all we can surmise is the ruling Christ now inside Jerusalem doesn't allow the battle lines to be drawn inside Israel's borders.
QuoteAlthough many popular interpreters have wrongly understood this passage to conclude several years before the return of Jesus, any honest assessment of the text simply does not allow for this. But among the many reasons to reject a pre-Day of the LORD conclusion of this prophecy, one of the simplest, is because it concludes with the LORD actually physically present in the land of Israel.
He's got this 100% correct, except he himself doesn't fully understand why, he thinks the reason the Lord is physically present in the land is because he just came from heaven a short time before, when he'd actually already been there for a thousand years.
QuoteThat's right, Ezekiel reveals that at the conclusion of Gog's invasion, Jesus the Messiah is physically present on the ground, in the land.
Yep, he's right, he'd been there for a thousand years by the time of Ezekiel 38:19–20.
QuoteAccording to this text, the Lord Himself says that throughout the earth, both people and animals will "quake at [His] presence." The word used for presence here is the Hebrew word paneh. Paneh is a reference to the actual face of someone or something. When God says that the people of the earth will quake at His paneh, He is saying that they will be terrified because of His actual physical presence, on the ground, in the land of Israel.
You bet the people of the earth are terrified of his presence in Israel, they see what Messiah has been doing there, & they're terrified he's going to bust out of Israel's borders & come after them next, which is the reason Gog & Magog put together an army led by Satan himself to put an end to this upstart Israelite messiah.
QuoteConcerning the word paneh, The New Unger's Bible Dictionary says, "The presence (face) of Jehovah is Jehovah in his own personal presence." The New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words says, "In the OT, being in God's or another's presence is indicated by a preposition (l) prefixed to the Hebrew word panim ('face'). The thought is to be 'before the face of the person."
Paneh is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the actual presence of God. Jacob, for instance, after wrestling with the Angel of the Lord, referred to seeing God face-to-face: "So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, 'For I have seen God face [paneh] to face [paneh], and yet my life has been delivered'" (Genesis 32:30).
Yep again, they have been looking at the actual presence of Israel's Messiah for a 1000 years, they don't like it, he terrifies them as they see he never loses a battle.
Quoteand I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel."
And this is what terrifies Gog & Magog, that they will be made to submit to the rule of Israel's messiah after watching for a 1000 years what he's been doing inside of Israel.
QuoteOther biblical commentators have also taken special note of God's presence in Ezekiel's oracle as evidence that it is a parallel to the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19. Apologist Dave Hunt for instance has stated:
"There is no doubt, from both Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1 and 19, that this personal coming of Yahweh to rescue His people and to destroy Antichrist and his armies takes place at Armageddon. It is significant, then, that similar language concerning the personal presence of God is found in Ezekiel 38 and 39, thus identifying the event described there as Armageddon also."
To call two battles separated by a 1000 years as "parallel" is a real stretch if you ask me.
QuoteHunt's observations are correct. But while most conservative, premillennialist, futurist interpreters who take Scripture at face value and use a literalist method of interpretation will interpret the entirety of this passage in a literal fashion, when it comes to these two texts which show that God is actually present and in the land, many suddenly switch to an allegorical and non-literalist interpretation, without any justification for doing so.
Well then take the most accurate & literal approach possible & place it where Christ's own words in Rev 20: 7-10 place the battle with Gog & Magog, at the end of the Millenium. Why are Christ's own words so hard for these commentators to understand?
QuoteIt is high time for the Church to begin wrestling with the implications.
I'll say so too, but even this individual doesn't understand the implications of what he is saying.
Quote from: PaulYep, he's right, he'd been there for a thousand years by the time of Ezekiel 38:19–20.
Where do you get this from?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around Jesus being on earth and the whole world not yet believing in who he is--or whatever you say is happening. Isn't he ruling the world at that point?
This is said right before his return. Are there passages with deal with the millenium rule and reign of Christ that give more detail? [other than some in Rev 21]
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
--Rev 22
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.
(Heb 12:22-25)
Are you inside or out? Are you a sorcerer? A dog? A fornicator? If so, you are outside the city. Unshielded by the walls.
"There is a river that makes glad the city of God"
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever. And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book."
(Rev 22:1-7)
Blessed is the man whose delight is in the law off the Lord and in it he meditates day and night. He shall be like a tree planted by the streams of water bearing fruit in season........Psalm 2
Come Quickly Lord Jesus
Rev 2:16 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
This picture of is a three dimensional revelation of spiritual reality that is inclusive of far more than a future prophecy of some supernatural heaven. It is a picture of the church under the headship of Christ and like an onion peeling to the core it is a picture of the condition of those who have Christ enthroned upon their hearts
"He that believes in me, as the scripture says, 'Out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water'".
Let there be light. Thy word o Lord is a lamp to my feet and a light on my path. I have no need of sun or stars because the Lord is my lamp within.
We are the Lamp upon the Lampstand(the churches are characterized as lamps and lampstands as Revelations opens because that is who the revelation is for), shining light into the whole house(the kosmos and the ages)
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
(1Co 2:6-14)
The revelation of John, IMO, is in every place an accumulation of, and deeper expression of, the word pictures of the rest of the old and new testaments, or as I would prefer to put it, the whole fabric of the scriptures.
:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2012, 05:49:55 AM
Quote from: PaulYep, he's right, he'd been there for a thousand years by the time of Ezekiel 38:19–20.
QuoteWhere do you get this from?
Rev 20:7-9 where Christ tells John that the battle between Christ & Satan's forces of Gog & Magog occurs at the conclusion of the 1000 years.
QuoteI'm still trying to wrap my head around Jesus being on earth and the whole world not yet believing in who he is--or whatever you say is happening. Isn't he ruling the world at that point?
Christ is not ruling the world until Satan's forces of Gog & Magog have been subdued after the Millenium is over. The Millenium is the time of the regathering of all of Israel to the land promised by God to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. Only a small fraction of Israel has returned by the opening day of the Millenium, these are the 144000 & the faithful woman in Rev 12 and whatever the remaining population of Israel will be at Christ's return. The Millenium is not a time of peace & tranquility where everybody will love their neighbor, that there is a battle of Gog & Magog led by none other than Satan himself at its' conclusion is proof of that. If there is so much "love thy neighbor" stuff going on during the Millenium, where does all the hatred come from that so many people still want to wipe out Israel?
Quote from: Paul L on September 11, 2012, 09:10:44 AM
Christ is not ruling the world until Satan's forces of Gog & Magog have been subdued after the Millenium is over. The Millenium is the time of the regathering of all of Israel to the land promised by God to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. Only a small fraction of Israel has returned by the opening day of the Millenium, these are the 144000 & the faithful woman in Rev 12 and whatever the remaining population of Israel will be at Christ's return. The Millenium is not a time of peace & tranquility where everybody will love their neighbor, that there is a battle of Gog & Magog led by none other than Satan himself at its' conclusion is proof of that. If there is so much "love thy neighbor" stuff going on during the Millenium, where does all the hatred come from that so many people still want to wipe out Israel?
Jesus said, "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." [Matt. 24:23-24]
The
true Christ
reigns over all things, since the day he sat down in the throne of his Father, after his resurrection, as Peter said in Acts 2.
Acts 2:32-36
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
both Lord and Christ.
Being made "Christ" means that he fulfils
all the prophecies about the promised Messiah. What else could it mean?
Isaiah said,
Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
I believe Jesus Christ reigns in Jerusalem over the Israel of God, upon the throne of David, and there will be
no end to his kingdom. There is no scripture that says
Jesus reigns for a "thousand years," but that
expression represents the time that
individual saints (those who are "beheaded")
reign with him. His reign is
forever. And, he rules the nations with
a rod of iron.
Jesus has power over all things, in heaven and earth. He said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." [Matt. 28:18] And,
Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Paul said, Jesus sits at God's right hand in the heavenly places, and he is "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come." [Eph. 1:21]
According to many dispensationalists, Christ's kingdom was
postponed, because some Jews did not believe he was the Christ. But in that case, he would not really be "Christ," and he would not be
reigning over all. He would be an inferior Christ, not the real one. The Scripture shows that the Jews who deny that Jesus is the Christ are no longer Israel.
Acts 3:22-24
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be
destroyed from among the people.Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Paul said they are branches broken off from their tree. [Rom. 11:17]
John said,
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that
Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Doug
My thoughts on the order of events.
A large Gog-Magog battle that starts the "end-time"
1260 days of "peace" - Seals 1...4
Seal 5 starts the violent 1260 days
Rapture between seal 6 and 7.
Seal 7 starts wrath of God.
So the saints are saved from God's wrath. Not of the anti-christ's wrath
God's wrath lasts 7 trumpets and 7 bowls.
That's 360 days + 10 days = Duration of the flood
A year + 10 days because while the year started at 1 Tishri it's announcement was delayed because the 1st ten days was a time of deep praying.
10 days are Days of Awe.
(Rev 8:1) And when he opened the seventh seal, silence occurred in heaven, like half an hour.
Yom Kippur/Atonement day is a day of fasting and silence.
When the first 1260 days of the end-time end 3 timers start.
1260 days until the end of the trumpets.
1290 days until the end of the bowls.
1335 days until Hanukah.
Hanukah = Festival of lights = Feast of rededication
In about 167 BC Antiochus Epiphanes conquered Jerusalem and put a Zeus statue in the Holies of Holies and offered a swine on the altar of burned offering.
The Jews revolted (Maccabees) and won. Rededication of the Temple started and was completed at the end of the 1335 days
(Dan 12:11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(Dan 12:12) Blessed is he that waits, and comes to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
1000 year reign of Jesus.
Satan released for a short while.
Armageddon.
The end c.q. beginning :=)
QuoteA large Gog-Magog battle that starts the "end-time"
Does this go on for 3.5 years? Because Daniel starts counting from the time Jerusalem is invaded, and Jesus returns at the end of the Gog-Magog war.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2012, 12:15:27 PM
My thoughts on the order of events.
A large Gog-Magog battle that starts the "end-time"
The "end-time is generally considered to be the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. Is this what you mean?
QuoteRapture between seal 6 and 7.
What wording leads you to believe this? I fail to see it
QuoteHanukah = Festival of lights = Feast of rededication
What does this have to do with anything? This was never an ordained festival under the Old Covenant law.
Quote1000 year reign of Jesus.
Satan released for a short while.
Armageddon.
The end c.q. beginning :=)
Wrong timeline, you have Armageddon at the conclusion of the Millenium, it actually occurs at the conclusion of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy just before the 1000 year reign of Christ begins. It is Christ's battle with Gog & Magog that occurs at the conclusion of the Millenium.
Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2012, 04:27:23 PM
QuoteA large Gog-Magog battle that starts the "end-time"
Does this go on for 3.5 years? Because Daniel starts counting from the time Jerusalem is invaded, and Jesus returns at the end of the Gog-Magog war.
As I just pointed out to WhiteWings, the Gog-Magog war occurs at the conclusion of the Millenium. Please folks, just read Rev 20:7-9, it is crystal clear when this occurs, Armegeddon is by now over a thousand years in the past & AntiChrist has been dispatched into the pages of history never to return.
Armageddon is AntiChrist's war with Israel's messiah.
Gog-Magog War- is Satan's war with Israel's messiah.
By the time the Gog-Magog war begins, the false prophet & beast have already been enjoying the lake of fire for a thousand years. Satan no longer has capable human surrogates to do his bidding, so he personally must take charge of the the invasion forces as described in Ezek 38 & 39.
Quote from: Paul L on September 11, 2012, 04:34:59 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2012, 12:15:27 PM
My thoughts on the order of events.
A large Gog-Magog battle that starts the "end-time"
The "end-time is generally considered to be the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. Is this what you mean?
QuoteRapture between seal 6 and 7.
What wording leads you to believe this? I fail to see it
Rev 7
9 After these things I perceived, and lo! a vast throng which no one was able to number, out of every nation and out of the tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lambkin, clothed in white robes and with palm fronds in their hands."
10 And they are crying with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation be our God's, Who is sitting on the throne, And the Lambkin's!"
11 And all the messengers stood around the throne and the elders and the four animals. And they fall on their faces before the throne and worship God,
12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be our God's for the eons of the eons. Amen!"
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These clothed in white robes, who are they, and whence came they?
14 And I have declared to him: "My lord, you are aware.And he said to me, "
These are those coming out of the great affliction. And they rinse their robes, and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin."
Above people who were taken out of tribulation.
A few verses later the 7th seal is broken.
Rev 8:1 And when It opens the seventh seal, a hush occurred in heaven as it were half an hour."
QuoteQuoteHanukah = Festival of lights = Feast of rededication
What does this have to do with anything? This was never an ordained festival under the Old Covenant law.
It's a pattern set in the OT.
Jesus attended to the festival too. That makes it valid for me.
John 10:22 Now there came to be the Dedications in Jerusalem, and it was winter."
John 10:23 And Jesus walked in the sanctuary in the portico of Solomon.
Quote from: Paul L on September 11, 2012, 04:50:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2012, 04:27:23 PM
QuoteA large Gog-Magog battle that starts the "end-time"
Does this go on for 3.5 years? Because Daniel starts counting from the time Jerusalem is invaded, and Jesus returns at the end of the Gog-Magog war.
As I just pointed out to WhiteWings, the Gog-Magog war occurs at the conclusion of the Millenium. Please folks, just read Rev 20:7-9, it is crystal clear when this occurs, Armegeddon is by now over a thousand years in the past & AntiChrist has been dispatched into the pages of history never to return.
Why 1000 years in the past. Why not now or 1000 year into the future?
Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2012, 04:27:23 PM
QuoteA large Gog-Magog battle that starts the "end-time"
Does this go on for 3.5 years? Because Daniel starts counting from the time Jerusalem is invaded, and Jesus returns at the end of the Gog-Magog war.
I don't know the exact duration of the wars but imo they all are short. But as with most wars they cause shortage (food/water) and illness. So the effects last much longer.
In the past the duration of a war had relation to the severity and number of deaths.
Today that's far less so. NBC/ABC weapons can cause massive amounts of deaths in just a few hours.
Quote from: ww1335 days until Hanukah.
Hanukah = Festival of lights = Feast of rededication
In about 167 BC Antiochus Epiphanes conquered Jerusalem and put a Zeus statue in the Holies of Holies and offered a swine on the altar of burned offering.
The Jews revolted (Maccabees) and won. Rededication of the Temple started and was completed at the end of the 1335 days
On the 24th day of the ninth month [Kislev] of the Jewish calendar, the day before Hanukkah, two previous battles were won: defeat of the syrian army and recapture of the temple 165 bC, and british capture of Jerusalem from the turks 1917.
Haggai names this date as the day of God's victory over the invading endtimes army.
20 And again the word of the Lord came unto Haggai
in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying,
21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;
22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.
23 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the Lord, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the Lord of hosts.
--Haggi 2
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2012, 06:25:26 PM
Quote from: Paul L on September 11, 2012, 04:50:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2012, 04:27:23 PM
QuoteA large Gog-Magog battle that starts the "end-time"
Does this go on for 3.5 years? Because Daniel starts counting from the time Jerusalem is invaded, and Jesus returns at the end of the Gog-Magog war.
As I just pointed out to WhiteWings, the Gog-Magog war occurs at the conclusion of the Millenium. Please folks, just read Rev 20:7-9, it is crystal clear when this occurs, Armegeddon is by now over a thousand years in the past & AntiChrist has been dispatched into the pages of history never to return.
QuoteWhy 1000 years in the past. Why not now or 1000 year into the future?
I guess the best answer would because God says so. He picks the times & seasons to suit himself, not our personal conveniences. If God were to try & pick times & seasons to suit the personal conveniences of trillions of bickering human beings, I imagine even he would become a bit weary for the task at hand.
God has written down the chronology of Old Testament prophecy in Revelation, instructs John to deliver it to the seven ecclesias on the first day of the Day of the Lord & I have no desire to quibble with it. God is a little bigger & a little smarter than I am, but I figure I can at least be a little smarter than the people of House of Israel, listen to God & not be so stiff-necked & just accept the order of things.
THAT 1000 YR4 DAY OF THE lORD..WHAT DOES IT MEAN.....
EXODUS 20;6 AND DEUT 5;10 GIVES CLARIFICATION
...BUT SHOWING LOVE TO A THOUSAND GENERATIONS OF THOSE WHO LOVE ME AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS
Sheila does that mean the thousand year reign isn't a literal thousand years of reigning but rather symbolic in nature? I've been wondering about that for awhile.
Quote from: Paul L on September 11, 2012, 11:18:15 PM
QuoteWhy 1000 years in the past. Why not now or 1000 year into the future?
I guess the best answer would because God says so.
Where did God say so?
Some examples of the use of "a thousand" in scripture are:
Psalm 50:10
For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
1 Chronicles 16:15
Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Psalm 105:8
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Practically every time period mentioned in Revelation is figurative, and the thousand years is no exception, IMO.
According to several scholars, Johann Albrecht Bengel (1687-1752) was the person most responsible for reviving chiliasm amongst scholars in Germany in the 18th century. Bengel became famous for his edition of the Greek New Testament, and his commentaries. Franz Delitzsch wrote of him, "To whom else do we owe it, that the orthodox Church of the present time does not brand the Chiliastic view of the last times as a heterodoxy, as is done in almost all old manuals of dogmatics; but, on the contrary, has allowed it to enter into her innermost life, so that there is scarcely a believing Christian now, who does not take this view?"
Bengel insisted that the thousand years of Revelation 20 should be taken literally, and denounced those who disagreed with his interpretation. He wrote: "... he who embraces the Divine authority of the Apocalypse, must also of necessity admit the thousand years in some sense. ... But there are some who, compelled by this Text, acknowledge that there is to be a remarkable and long-continued tranquility of the Church, and maintain this with impunity. How with impunity? On account of this one thing, that they remove from their mouth the thousand years which have proceeded from the mouth of God. It is of no advantage thus to alarm good men. But these thousand years do not run on even a step simultaneously with the times of the beast, nor do they altogether precede those times, but totally follow them." [Johann Albrecht Bengel. Gnomon of the New Testament, Volume 5 (1858). pp. 364-365.]
Bengel struggled to overcome an odium that was connected with chiliasm, because of its condemnation in the Augsburg Confession of 1530, where it was referred to as a "Jewish opinion." The 17th article included the paragraph:
They condemn the Anabaptists who think that to condemned men and the devils shall be an end of torments. They condemn others also, who now scatter Jewish opinions, that, before the resurrection of the dead, the godly shall occupy the kingdom of the world, the wicked being every where suppressed [the saints alone, the pious, shall have a worldly kingdom, and shall exterminate all the godless].
Events in the years 1533-1535 only seemed to confirm the pernicious nature of the doctrine of chiliasm. During that period the city of Munster in Westphalia was declared to be "new Jerusalem" after a group of Annabaptists gained control of the city council. Owen Chadwick described how Dutch prophet and ex-innkeeper, John of Leyden, was "proclaimed King of New Zion, wore vestments as his royal robes, and held his court and throne in the market-place. Laws were decreed to establish community of goods, and the Old Testament was adduced to permit polygamy. Bernard Rothman, once a man of sense, once the friend of Melanchthon, took nine wives." Meanwhile, the Bishop of Munster collected an army and began the siege of the city. Chadwick described the events that followed: [Owen Chadwick, The Reformation (New York: Penguin Books, 1997) pp. 190-191.]
They now believed they had been given the duty and the power of exterminating the ungodly. The world would perish, and only Munster would be saved. Rothman issued a public incitement to world rebellion: 'Dear brethren, arm yourselves for the battle, not only with the humble weapons of the apostles for suffering, but also with the glorious armour of David for vengeance...in God's strength, and help annihilate the ungodly.' An ex-soldier named John of Geelen slipped out of the city, carrying copies of this proclamation into the Netherlands, and planned sudden coups in the Dutch cities.... At last, on 25 June 1535, the gates of Munster were opened by sane men within the walls, and the bishop's army entered the city. The cages where the corpses of Anabaptist leaders were hung are still hanging on the tower of St. Lambert's Church.
Bengel was a notorious date-setter, and he predicted the second coming and the start of the millennium in 1836. He had a considerable influence on John Wesley (1703–1791).
Doug
I think so..Lomorrah....I think it symbolizes the full sentence of death in the flesh of the corruptible image and 1000years/generations
raised up inChrist. OF ALL MEN into the incorruptible image.
Quote from: DougPractically every time period mentioned in Revelation is figurative, and the thousand years is no exception, IMO.
I don't think so. Otherwise, why would daniel say, when you see the armies standing in Jerusalem, start counting the days, 1260,1290, etc Daniel is very specific and the book of revelation just quotes Daniel.
Quote from: sheila on September 12, 2012, 01:26:50 AM
I think so..Lomorrah....I think it symbolizes the full sentence of death in the flesh of the corruptible image and 1000years/generations
raised up inChrist. OF ALL MEN into the incorruptible image.
Problem is, Sheila, you are looking thousands of years down the road, and I'm trying to look at the next 4 months.
another reason I think so. bride price for sarah 10000 peices of silver...that she was untouched. and in songs of songs the 1000 shekels of silver
each was to bring for the fruit of the vineyard. God says 'and this is all the fruit..when you take away6 all their sin. only Christ can do that for
his vineyard. in the law 1/5 of the value was to be added to anything redeemed...song states...and 200 are for those who tend it's fruit...
the Lord is all about increasing
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2012, 01:39:43 AM
Quote from: DougPractically every time period mentioned in Revelation is figurative, and the thousand years is no exception, IMO.
I don't think so. Otherwise, why would daniel say, when you see the armies standing in Jerusalem, start counting the days, 1260,1290, etc Daniel is very specific and the book of revelation just quotes Daniel.
Daniel also said none of the wicked would understand his prophecies. So it does not appear reasonable that these periods would be literal days, as in that case anyone could figure it out.
Each of these numbers refer to events of a spiritual nature, to which earth days, earth months, and earth years would not apply.
Doug
Yeah I have no problem believing the 1000 years are figurative. What of the next part then, "when the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth - Gog and Magog - to gather them for battle."?
when God said to not eat,lest the day ye eat of it ye die...I think that was the death sentence reigning...the corruptible 1000 oyears..of which Christ began ruling in the
midst as the tol promised seed of the woman. That is why Christ is Lord of the dead and living..and God is the God/Lord of the living[because all live unto Him]
Molly, my sister...I too..look for the grand finale and wrapping up of all things...I have read in the lost books about the dragons of Arabia prophesied
covering the earth like a hissing snake. and yes, they may very well serve3 as a typeology of the kingdom of darkness/gog's and magog's.
but there are many anti-christs..and throughout many generations of time they have done their will through thecorruptible flesh of fallen Adam.
Judus is a son of perdition..but so to the spirit of satan has been operative in many who associate with Christ[spirit] betray him to death in myriads of ways
for money,power prestige etc. It is a spiritual battle..and corruptible flesh of men are used in it
I am just trying to widen the scope of what is seen..what has been taking place since man was placed on the earth
Quote from: Doug on September 12, 2012, 01:57:44 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2012, 01:39:43 AM
Quote from: DougPractically every time period mentioned in Revelation is figurative, and the thousand years is no exception, IMO.
I don't think so. Otherwise, why would daniel say, when you see the armies standing in Jerusalem, start counting the days, 1260,1290, etc Daniel is very specific and the book of revelation just quotes Daniel.
Daniel also said none of the wicked would understand his prophecies. So it does not appear reasonable that these periods would be literal days, as in that case anyone could figure it out.
Each of these numbers refer to events of a spiritual nature, to which earth days, earth months, and earth years would not apply.
Doug
Anyone can figure it out. Just like anyone could figure out who Jesus was 2000 years ago.
But, they didn't, because their eyes were blinded.
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
--Dan 11
Obama White House ordered coverup of religious symbols for Georgetown speech
April 16, 2009 | 3:39pm
Surprising word today that President Barack Obama's White House asked Georgetown University to cover all religious symbols at the scene of the president's economic speech at the Roman Catholic institution Wednesday.
And the prestigious Jesuit university agreed.
This includes a mosaic of Jesus Christ covering the entire 14-story southern wall of the Hesburgh Library next door to the speech site in the Joyce Center, primarily used for athletic-related events such as basketball, hockey and raucous pre-game pep rallies. (See photo below.)
Turns out, the usual movable drapery barriers were not tall enough to hide the cross and IHS emblem, a traditional Catholic abbreviation for the name of Jesus Christ. So the school agreed to cloak the entire wall structure with the religious symbols.
An online petition asking Notre Dame to rescind its invitation to Obama has gathered several hundred thousand signatures.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/04/obama-notre-dame-georgetown.html
Notre Dame Faculty to Obama: 'This Is a Grave Violation of Religious Freedom and Cannot Stand'
CNS News ^ | 2/12/12 | Terence P. Jeffrey
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2012 12:15:11 PM by rhema
Twenty-five Notre Dame faculty members--led by the university's top ethics expert, and including some of the school's most eminent scholars--have signed a statement declaring that President Barack Obama's latest version of his administration's mandate that all health insurance plans in the United States must cover sterilizations and all FDA-approved contraceptives, including those that cause abortions, is "a grave violation of religious freedom and cannot stand."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2845939/posts
BETWEEN THE LINES
Dems denied God 3 times
Exclusive: Joseph Farah believes platform debacle will translate into shellacking at polls
Published: 4 days ago
http://www.wnd.com/2012/09/dems-denied-god-3-times/
U.S. President Barack Obama Avoids Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu Meeting
Reuters | Posted: 09/11/2012 2:36 pm Updated: 09/11/2012 6:30 pm
By Matt Spetalnick and Allyn Fisher-Ilan
WASHINGTON/JERUSALEM, Sept 11 (Reuters) - In a highly unusual rebuff to a close ally, the White House said on Tuesday that President Barack Obama would not meet Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu during a U.S. visit later this month, as tensions escalated over how to deal with Iran's nuclear program.
The apparent snub, coupled with Netanyahu's sharpened demands for a tougher U.S. line against Iran, threatened to plunge U.S.-Israeli relations into crisis and add pressure on Obama in the final stretch of a tight presidential election campaign.
Quote from: lomarah on September 12, 2012, 02:00:37 AM
Yeah I have no problem believing the 1000 years are figurative. What of the next part then, "when the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth - Gog and Magog - to gather them for battle."?
Peter said, "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [2 Peter 3:8] The saints are "the children of light" and "children of the day," not of the night, or darkness. [1 Thess. 5:5] And so, we could say that the saints are the "children of the thousand years;" as with God one day is as a thousand years.
Their lives are with God; the whole time of their reign with Christ is a "day." David said, "For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness." [Psa. 84:10]
Peter referred to the saints as a "royal priesthood." [1 Peter 2:9-10]
John said that the saints are "priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." [Rev. 20:6] The thousand years is a label John puts on the spiritual life of every saint. This could be called a
discrete Millennium, as it is personal, and individual. That is, for the individual Christian, Satan is bound in a bottomless pit, and that person reigns with Christ as a member of the "royal priesthood" of the saints. The thousand years applies to individual saints, not to Christ, as his reign is forever.
If the individual remains faithful, the "thousand years" or his Christian experience is a foretaste of eternal life in Christ's kingdom. If not, then he will become deceived, and will be one of those who come against the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. For such people, the thousand years ends, they cease to be what John depicts as "beheaded," which depicts those who are of a humble and contrite spirit.
Doug
as far as I can see,Lomorrah regarding the release of satan from the abyss to go forth and mislead..these are men that are not regenerated in Christ as yet.
the spirit of the adversary uses them to do their will. I think it no coincidnce that the spiritual regeneration that has occurred in these last few
decades of those called out and the MONUMENTOUS JUDGEMENT THAT ALL MEN SHALL BE SAVED AND RE#CEIVE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL
LIFE.....that at that very time violence both here and abroad..and kill every american is echoed..throughout many countries.
I beleive it is in that very thing they are being manipulated to fight against the camp of the Holy city. Herod went after all male children ....wher-ever the spirit
of Christ is or a manchild caught up to the throne of God..you shall see enmity...be it Go9g..a dragon..original serpent..anti-christ etc...and they use
corruptible flesh of deceived to accomplish it.
I most certainly do beleive the end of all the temporal is at hand...nation against nation..kingdom against kingdom.
the fire of God will burn the evil tares up on those who are not regenerated in Christ..they shall be seperated from their deceivers
any of you had a long time friend suddenly turn on you for no cause? think not that gog's crowd is only in the arabs muslims flesh..
any of you tempted to live a 'normal' life...he's in your flesh too..known as sin/corruption
Wow very interesting stuff here! Doug that was a really interesting take on it.
Sheila, I hear you about Gog, that annoying sin/corruption. Question, are you saying that the nations hate America because of the camp of the Holy city being in it? Or did I read that wrong?
In Revelation 12:1, the woman in heaven is adorned with a crown of twelve stars, which likely alludes to the throne of David. Christ inherited David's throne, and the saints who are "beheaded" reign with him. This is a metaphor depicting a contrite spirit. But in verse 4, some are described following the tail of the dragon. "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."
The stars cast to the earth are former saints, those who return to the world. Being drawn by the dragon's tail pictures being deceived.
This seems to be a parallel to the things John described in Revelation 20:8-9, where people who are deceived come against the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, which is the church.
Doug
The twelve stars refer to the twelve tribes of Israel which gives birth to Jesus/the church.
The child is snatched up to heaven so the dragon goes after the woman who is left behind.
This could refer to the rapture of the church, with the Jews being left behind to be persecuted. [Also, ascension of Jesus to heaven and saints sitting in heaven with him].
But this is an endtimes prophecy.
So we see the Jews being carried away into the desert on the wings of eagles, where they are protected and nurtured by God. One third of the Jews will be saved out of Jacob's Trouble [the Great Tribulation].
These Jews in revelation 12 are keeping the commandments of Jesus.
Quote from: DougThis seems to be a parallel to the things John described in Revelation 20:8-9, where people who are deceived come against the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, which is the church.
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
--Rev 20
These people are not christians, and never were. Their names are not written in the book of life. They worshipped the beast.
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. Rev 13:8
The word "Millennium" in Revelation is plural, literally "MillenniumS."
________________________________________
There is NO "Battle of Armageddon." The nations are only gathered to battle. The mounted presence of the the breathing Word of God stops it.
There is a description of blood flowing (not splattering) in the valley "to the horses bridles." That is approximately 5 1/2 feet deep. The valley averages about 5 miles wide by 200 miles long. To fill that volume means somewhat over 9 trillion people. That is more than 2,000 adult bodies for every one that now exists, assuming everyone is an adult and drained of about 8 quarts of blood. Where do these people come from? Where would the corpses go? It seems very unlikely to expect some kind of literal fulfillment here.
________________________________________
Have you ever looked up figs and fig trees to try and establish they represent Israel? It seemed to me a very shaky assumption, nothing to lean on. Is the fig tree Satan?
well, it could mean that in a certain part of the river, like in the center of the channel where the armies are trying to cross it after it is dammed up, it might not mean the WHOLE river from shore to shore :o) But still, that is a lotta blood.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand(chiloi- thousand) years,
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands(chilias-thousands) of thousands;
Looks like somebody insulted the Prophet, peace be on him, but don't you love the new democracy in Arab spring? oops, there goes two american embassies. Maybe we should give them more billions of dollars?
:umnick:
Protesters scale US embassy walls in Cairo over prophet 'insult' (+video)
Protesters reacted angrily to Egyptian media reports of a film produced in the US that mocks the prophet Muhammad.
By Kristen Chick, Correspondent / September 11, 2012
Hundreds of protesters gathered in front of the embassy, alternating religious slogans with chants against the US or President Obama. Some climbed over the wall and tore down the American flag, raising instead a black flag with an Islamic inscription that is often associated with Islamic extremists.
"Insulting [the prophet] is like insulting every Muslim citizen across the world," he says. "We cannot accept that this is a kind of freedom" in the US.
He says he demanded that Egypt withdraw citizenship from anyone who worked on the film. He also had demands for the US to "stop these actions, and understand that [insulting the prophet] is a special case."
"There is a new situation after the revolution in Egypt," he says. "We cannot accept this kind of insulting. The relationship between the US and Egypt could be affected by this kind of attitude."
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2012/0911/Protesters-scale-US-embassy-walls-in-Cairo-over-prophet-insult-video
In Egypt, Libya fierce clashes cause damage, death (+video)
Response to a U.S. film protestors say insulted the Prophet Mohammad lead to the death of one American and injured others in Benghazi, Libya. Protestors demanded the movie be banned and asked for an apology.
"One American staff member has died and a number have been injured in the clashes," Abdel-Monem Al-Hurr, spokesman for Libya's Supreme Security Committee, said, adding he did not know the exact number of injured or what the cause of death was.
The violence in Benghazi followed protests in neighboring Egypt where protesters scaled the walls of the Cairo embassy and tore down the American flag and burned it during protests over what demonstrators said was a U.S. film that insulted the Prophet Mohammad.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0911/In-Egypt-Libya-fierce-clashes-cause-damage-death-video
In Benghazi, Reuters reporters on the scene could see looters raiding the empty U.S. consulate's compound, walking off with desks, chairs and washing machines.
Unknown gunmen were shooting at the buildings, while others threw handmade bombs into the compound, setting off small explosions. Small fires were burning around the compound.
Passersby entered the unsecured compound to take pictures with their mobile phones and watch the looting.
CNN reporting
America's ambassador to Libya has been killed in that violence over some stupid movie.
arrrrgh! Thanks Hillary and Barry! You have SO made the world a safer place.
Let's close the embassy permenantly and use the money to make 10000 movies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SIIxholL4
rest in peace Chris Stevens, US Ambassador to Libya
rest in peace Freedom of Speech
CNN three other state dept workers have been killed as well
Islamic group fired rockets at them. Embassy seems to be burning to the ground from pictures.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 12, 2012, 06:41:13 AM
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand(chiloi- thousand) years,
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands(chilias-thousands) of thousands;
Most Greek texts have χίλια ἔτη, a thousand years, in Revelation 20:1-7.
But the Tischendorf 8th Edition (http://t8.biblos.com/revelation/20.htm) of the Greek New Testament, the expression χίλιοι ἔτος is used, thousands of years.
If
chilioi is the correct word, the idea that Christ will return to reign upon earth for one thousand years is undermined. But Revelation 20 does not say Christ reigns for one thousand years; it is saints who are
beheaded and who
do not worship the beast who reign with him for a thousand years. Many scriptures say Christ's reign is forever. The notion that his reign ends in general rebellion, is contrary to this prophecy of Isaiah: "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever." [Isa. 9:7]
Doug
QuoteMany scriptures say Christ's reign is forever.
Using the same word that are usually used to prove hell isn't everlasting.
Plus we are told Jesus hands over His Kingdom to Father. That sounds like the end of Jesus' reign.
QuoteThe notion that his reign ends in general rebellion, is contrary to this prophecy of Isaiah: "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever." [Isa. 9:7]
Interesting verse Doug. Unfortunately it add even more confusion...
Satan is locked up. Jesus rules. And then 'suddenly' satan is allowed messing up things.
The way I understand it satan doesn't escape but is released (on authority of Father/Son)
Again part of the Plan?
Jesus rules
until all enemies are under His feet. The word 'until' gives two pieces of information.
The rule ends when all enemies are defeated.
Enemies are defeated gradually. The 1000 years are not complete peace. But more like increasing peace.
QuoteThe notion that his reign ends in general rebellion
If there is total peace and people all are saints who are part of that final rebellion?
Quoteincrease of his government
This also shows His kingdom isn't 100% peacefull from the start.
So perhaps the final rebellion is just
part of the submitting process that went on for a 1000 year.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
QuoteMany scriptures say Christ's reign is forever.
Using the same word that are usually used to prove hell isn't everlasting.
Which word is that? Does it appear in the following scripture?
"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end"
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
Plus we are told Jesus hands over His Kingdom to Father. That sounds like the end of Jesus' reign.
Or maybe not.
1 Corinthians 15:24-26
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
QuoteThe notion that his reign ends in general rebellion, is contrary to this prophecy of Isaiah: "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever." [Isa. 9:7]
Interesting verse Doug. Unfortunately it add even more confusion...
Satan is locked up. Jesus rules. And then 'suddenly' satan is allowed messing up things.
The way I understand it satan doesn't escape but is released (on authority of Father/Son)
Again part of the Plan?
Satan is the "strong man" that was bound by Jesus. And Jesus said to his disciples,
Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
In the lives of the apostles, and saints, Satan was bound, but he was still active in the rest of the world. He had some influence upon Ananias.
Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
So Satan is bound, in respect to
individuals. Peter said, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" [1 Peter 5:8]
He is pictured ascending out of his pit, as saints become seduced by him. The apostles warned about this.
James wrote: "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." [James 4:7]
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
Jesus rules until all enemies are under His feet. The word 'until' gives two pieces of information.
The rule ends when all enemies are defeated.
Why? I would think that it is the
warfare that ends.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
Enemies are defeated gradually. The 1000 years are not complete peace. But more like increasing peace.
The Old Testament describes the reigns of the kings of Israel and of Judah, which are examples for the instruction of Christians. Some of those kings sought God, and followed his ways; some did not. IMO, the thousand years in Rev. 20 is a symbolic number that represents the reigns of individual believers. Like the reigns of those ancient kings, some are longer, some more illustrious, than others.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
QuoteThe notion that his reign ends in general rebellion
If there is total peace and people all are saints who are part of that final rebellion?
Some of the most active and influential opponents of the Christian faith and the Bible are ex-Christians. This has been true throughout the history of the church. They turn others against the church.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
Quoteincrease of his government
This also shows His kingdom isn't 100% peacefull from the start.
So perhaps the final rebellion is just part of the submitting process that went on for a 1000 year.
There have been rebels since the first century, and some are mentioned in the New Testament. Acts 8:18-24 describes the incident where Simon the sorcerer offered money, to receive the power given to Peter.
Peter described the false teachers in 2 Peter 2. He said there would be many.
2 Peter 2
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
John referred to power-seeking men who rejected the authority of the apostles.
3 John 1:9
I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
The antichrist spirit was already present in the church.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2012, 05:04:39 AM
Quote from: DougThis seems to be a parallel to the things John described in Revelation 20:8-9, where people who are deceived come against the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, which is the church.
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
--Rev 20
These people are not christians, and never were. Their names are not written in the book of life. They worshipped the beast.
In prophecy, human governments are represented by animals, usually predatory ones. The ancient kingdom of Babylon was represented by a lion, Persia by a bear, the hellenistic Greek kingdoms by a leopard with four heads, and Rome by a terrible beast with ten horns. In Revelation 13, John combines all these in a composite beast, that seems to represent human government. The total number of heads and horns in John's beast is equal to those of the four beasts of Daniel 7. And governments in all nations today incorporate elements derived from those ancient powers. Democracy, for example, is a word that comes from the Greek dēmokratía, popular government. The economic, philosophical, religious, legal, and military traditions of the nations of the world today are largely derived from those ancient world empires.
The governments of Britain, Canada, the USA, and other modern nations are likely included in the "beast" in Revelation 13. Where does the word "senate" originate? Rome. "The modern word senate is derived from the Latin word senātus (senate), which comes from senex, 'old man.' The members or legislators of a senate are called senators. The Latin word senator was adopted into English with no change in spelling.... The original senate was the Roman Senate, which lasted until 580 (various efforts to revive it were made in Medieval Rome). In the Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Senate continued until the Fourth Crusade, circa 1202–1204." - Wikipedia.
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
In WW1 and WW2, "Christians" fought against each other; German Protestants and Catholics fought against English and American Protestants and Catholics. Their armies no doubt included devout believers on each side. They were "overcome" by the beast!
Political parties in the USA employ animals as their emblems, or as their logos, the Republicans an elephant, and the Democrats a kicking donkey. The government is represented by either one of these, or both at the same time, as when the powers are divided.
In scripture all human governments are represented by a "beast."
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2012, 05:04:39 AM
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. Rev 13:8
Right.
Doug
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
Enemies are defeated gradually. The 1000 years are not complete peace. But more like increasing peace.
This also shows His kingdom isn't 100% peacefull from the start.
So perhaps the final rebellion is just part of the submitting process that went on for a 1000 year.
Your above synopsis about the Millenium is about right on the money. The entirety of the book of Ezekiel is critical to the understanding of the Millenium. The Millenium is the time of the regathering of the northern ten tribes to Israel, which most of these ten tribes are reluctant to do, this is what the entirety of the book of Ezekial is about (the Millenium) . The scattered ten tribes do not view Israel as a safe place to return to even after they've seen the defeat of Israel's false messiah at Armegeddon (Megiddo), they may even be thinking this new guy is also a false messiah, they need to be convinced.
The northern ten tribes have been scattered all throughout the nations, & after AntiChrist's system has been destroyed at Christ's coming, the world order of nations is thrown back into the stone age. Modern commerce as we know it today will cease completely, the world's population will be a fraction of what it was before the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.
You can bet there will be no electronic communications systems, weapons of battle will become sticks & stones because factories once producing today's weapons of mass destruction have been destroyed & the transportation system will be horse & buggy, and your feet. Realize the fact that many of those ten tribes returning to Israel will be carried on the backs of those who were once their Gentile hosts, that's quite a telling picture of the condition of the world during the Millenium.
For a thousand years the 12 tribes of Israel will rebuild their country, they become esconced safely in their land & wouldn't you know it but what Gog & Magog don't like what they see in a country now becoming much more prosperous than themselves. They see there are no armies defending the borders of Israel or within the nation itself, easy pickings so they think, so they conjure up an invasion force (Ezek 38 & 39). Just as Israel has had a thousand years to rebuild their country, the gentile nations have also had a thousand years to rebuild theirs, out of stone age materials. They come against the mountains of Israel with such great quantities of wooden built materials that northern Israelites don't need firewood for a long time.
Quote from: Doug on September 12, 2012, 03:50:25 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
QuoteMany scriptures say Christ's reign is forever.
Using the same word that are usually used to prove hell isn't everlasting.
Which word is that?
She bolded words.
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever/
olam. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this." Isaiah 9:6-7
(2Pet 1:11) For so the entrance will be furnished to you abundantly into the eternal/
aiōnios kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
(Rev 11:15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever/
aiōn and everever/
aiōn.
QuoteDoes it appear in the following scripture?
"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end"
(Isa 9:7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on even for ever/
olam. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
But obviously you are pointing to "no end". I can't explain that otherwise than the verse sounds impossible.
A kingdom without an end can exist.
"increase of .... peace there shall be no end"
How can peace keep increasing if there is already total peace?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
Plus we are told Jesus hands over His Kingdom to Father. That sounds like the end of Jesus' reign.
Or maybe not.
Can you explain why he verse you quoted below (maybe) shows Jesus' reign never ends?
Quote1 Corinthians 15:24-26
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
QuoteThe notion that his reign ends in general rebellion, is contrary to this prophecy of Isaiah: "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever." [Isa. 9:7]
Interesting verse Doug. Unfortunately it add even more confusion...
Satan is locked up. Jesus rules. And then 'suddenly' satan is allowed messing up things.
The way I understand it satan doesn't escape but is released (on authority of Father/Son)
Again part of the Plan?
Satan is the "strong man" that was bound by Jesus. And Jesus said to his disciples,
Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
In the lives of the apostles, and saints, Satan was bound, but he was still active in the rest of the world. He had some influence upon Ananias.
Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
So Satan is bound, in respect to individuals. Peter said, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" [1 Peter 5:8]
He is pictured ascending out of his pit, as saints become seduced by him. The apostles warned about this.
James wrote: "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." [James 4:7]
Do I correctly summarize your view as follows?
Saints are immume to the things of satan. Their holiness restrains/chains satan.
But not so for the unholy people. On them satan has the same effect he had since creation.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
Enemies are defeated gradually. The 1000 years are not complete peace. But more like increasing peace.
The Old Testament describes the reigns of the kings of Israel and of Judah, which are examples for the instruction of Christians. Some of those kings sought God, and followed his ways; some did not. IMO, the thousand years in Rev. 20 is a symbolic number that represents the reigns of individual believers. Like the reigns of those ancient kings, some are longer, some more illustrious, than others.
That's not far from my point.
No matter if it's about individuals, kingdoms or shome other group of people they are not yet submitted to Jesus for some reason. But Jesus keeps trying
until He succeeds to establish world peace.
That may take exactly a literal 1000 years, 1000 days or 1000 millenia. Let's not argue about that right now.
I deleted the last part of your reply because I either didn't understand it or it's just repeating previously made points. But if you want I'll reply anyway. But that would be just repeating what I wrote above :-)
man in the corrupt image is always a beast[you have no life in yourself]Nebuchaddnezer given mind of beast for seven times.
as we have all bore the image of the corruptible..so,too shall we all bear the image of the incorruptible.
until man be wetted with the dew of heaven[annointed with spirit] and claim...that it is God who rules
thus a new name that is recorded in the book of life...and death of the corrupt image
the seven trumpets are the seven 'times' that pass before the mind of the beast is wetted with the dew of heaven..and in contrition confesses it is God who reigns
also seven thunders is seven judgements of God..on prince of this world and wicked works...of which Jesus testified John 7;7 theworld can not hate you,
but it hates me BECAUSE I TESTIFY THAT WHAT IT DOES IS EVIL
be careful,less you devour one another[like beasts]
Quote from: Paul L on September 12, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
Enemies are defeated gradually. The 1000 years are not complete peace. But more like increasing peace.
This also shows His kingdom isn't 100% peacefull from the start.
So perhaps the final rebellion is just part of the submitting process that went on for a 1000 year.
Your above synopsis about the Millenium is about right on the money. The entirety of the book of Ezekiel is critical to the understanding of the Millenium. The Millenium is the time of the regathering of the northern ten tribes to Israel, which most of these ten tribes are reluctant to do, this is what the entirety of the book of Ezekial is about (the Millenium) .
Who are the 10 lost tribes is a very complex debate. By that I'm not meaning list with names from the OT, but which persons are part of those tribes. Say I have a few drops of Jewish blood. Perhaps even 20%. But if I truely don't know that why would I feel called to move to Israel?
Can't it "just" be becoming a believer in YHWH and follow His laws instead of moving to Israel.
A spiritual Israel. Besides of that Israel is to small. Assume 1 biljon Christians immigrate to Israel.
I think most children would be born in a stable :P
QuoteThe northern ten tribes have been scattered all throughout the nations, & after AntiChrist's system has been destroyed at Christ's coming, the world order of nations is thrown back into the stone age. Modern commerce as we know it today will cease completely, the world's population will be a fraction of what it was before the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.
You can bet there will be no electronic communications systems, weapons of battle will become sticks & stones because factories once producing today's weapons of mass destruction have been destroyed & the transportation system will be horse & buggy, and your feet. Realize the fact that many of those ten tribes returning to Israel will be carried on the backs of those who were once their Gentile hosts, that's quite a telling picture of the condition of the world during the Millenium.
For a thousand years the 12 tribes of Israel will rebuild their country, they become esconced safely in their land & wouldn't you know it but what Gog & Magog don't like what they see in a country now becoming much more prosperous than themselves. They see there are no armies defending the borders of Israel or within the nation itself, easy pickings so they think, so they conjure up an invasion force (Ezek 38 & 39). Just as Israel has had a thousand years to rebuild their country, the gentile nations have also had a thousand years to rebuild theirs, out of stone age materials. They come against the mountains of Israel with such great quantities of wooden built materials that northern Israelites don't need firewood for a long time.
It took far less than a thousand years to go from bow and arrow to all the stuff the army has today. Plus, even if each and every weapon and factory is destroyed the knowledge still exists.
QuoteThey see there are no armies defending the borders of Israel or within the nation itself, easy pickings so they think
Surely it takes them less than a 1000 years to notice that....?
Quote from: Doug1 Corinthians 15:24-26
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
I think Paul is finessing a few ages here. It's obvious this doesn't happen until after the 1000 years at least because that's when death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire, at the second resurrection.
Quote from: PaulRealize the fact that many of those ten tribes returning to Israel will be carried on the backs of those who were once their Gentile hosts, that's quite a telling picture of the condition of the world during the Millenium.
Where do you see this in scripture? And, also where do you see the rest of the world will be in the stone age?
Quote from: wwWho are the 10 lost tribes is a very complex debate. By that I'm not meaning list with names from the OT, but which persons are part of those tribes. Say I have a few drops of Jewish blood. Perhaps even 20%. But if I truely don't know that why would I feel called to move to Israel?
Can't it "just" be becoming a believer in YHWH and follow His laws instead of moving to Israel.
A spiritual Israel. Besides of that Israel is to small. Assume 1 biljon Christians immigrate to Israel.
I think most children would be born in a stable :P
God would know who his people are. I think they will re-establish the borders of Israel to the original tract of land given to Abraham, from the Nile to the Euphrates, and then God will turn it into the garden of Eden. I have to admit it doesn't really interest me, either, but Jesus will be there, so that changes the equation.
I keep forgetting that once we accept Christ, we are no longer Gentiles.
Zechariah 13;7 strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones. In the whole land 2/3 will be struck down
the third I will bring into the fire.I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. they will call on my name,and I will answer them
I will say..they are my people and they will say....the Lord is our God
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2012, 05:28:03 PM
Quote from: PaulRealize the fact that many of those ten tribes returning to Israel will be carried on the backs of those who were once their Gentile hosts, that's quite a telling picture of the condition of the world during the Millenium.
Where do you see this in scripture? And, also where do you see the rest of the world will be in the stone age?
Ezek 39:9-10 is a description of the materials of the weapons of war Gog & Magog used against Israel at the conclusion of the Millenium. There was enough wood to be burned for the kindling of fires by the saints of Israel that the people did not need to cut down a single tree in Israel for seven years. That's a lot of wood. These described weapons cannot be of the type used in present day warfare, metal does not burn & thus cannot be used for kindling. These are stone age weapons materials.
The technology, knowledge, skills & experienced tradesman required to craft weapons as we know them today have been with us for only 150 years. It took thousands of years of development in human history before we graduated from weapons described in verse 9, the end of AntiChrist's rule will create a knowledge gap that God will not allow humankind to recover from, thus we have Gog & Magog coming to Israel with the types of weapons described in verse 9.
Unable to locate the passage that states to the effect that the gentile nations will be found carrying Israelites back to Israel. I did read just the other day, thought it was in Ezekiel but I guess maybe not.
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2012, 05:31:33 PM
Quote from: wwWho are the 10 lost tribes is a very complex debate. By that I'm not meaning list with names from the OT, but which persons are part of those tribes. Say I have a few drops of Jewish blood. Perhaps even 20%. But if I truely don't know that why would I feel called to move to Israel?
Can't it "just" be becoming a believer in YHWH and follow His laws instead of moving to Israel.
A spiritual Israel. Besides of that Israel is to small. Assume 1 biljon Christians immigrate to Israel.
I think most children would be born in a stable :P
God would know who his people are. I think they will re-establish the borders of Israel to the original tract of land given to Abraham, from the Nile to the Euphrates, and then God will turn it into the garden of Eden. I have to admit it doesn't really interest me, either, but Jesus will be there, so that changes the equation.
I keep forgetting that once we accept Christ, we are no longer Gentiles.
That's where Gog and others come in folks. God annhilates the nations surrounding Israel BEFORE Armageddon, allowing the Israelites to come back to Israel.
MTH; says GO Ye out and meet the bridegroom, the bridegroom is in Jerusalem. The ones who refused to return had their lamps blown out and therefore did not make it to the promised land and were shut out, as Jesus said ye will se Abrahma but ye yourselfs shut out.
Quote from: Paul L on September 12, 2012, 11:54:21 PM
Ezek 39:9-10 is a description of the materials of the weapons of war Gog & Magog used against Israel at the conclusion of the Millenium. There was enough wood to be burned for the kindling of fires by the saints of Israel that the people did not need to cut down a single tree in Israel for seven years. That's a lot of wood. These described weapons cannot be of the type used in present day warfare, metal does not burn & thus cannot be used for kindling. These are stone age weapons materials.
The technology, knowledge, skills & experienced tradesman required to craft weapons as we know them today have been with us for only 150 years. It took thousands of years of development in human history before we graduated from weapons described in verse 9, the end of AntiChrist's rule will create a knowledge gap that God will not allow humankind to recover from, thus we have Gog & Magog coming to Israel with the types of weapons described in verse 9.
About 40 years ago there was a (Chick?) tract that explained this fulfillment of prophecy, in that Soviets had developed a material from super compressed wood that was lighter and more resilient than steel and burned better than coal.
Quote from: reFORMer on September 13, 2012, 06:12:12 AM
Quote from: Paul L on September 12, 2012, 11:54:21 PM
Ezek 39:9-10 is a description of the materials of the weapons of war Gog & Magog used against Israel at the conclusion of the Millenium. There was enough wood to be burned for the kindling of fires by the saints of Israel that the people did not need to cut down a single tree in Israel for seven years. That's a lot of wood. These described weapons cannot be of the type used in present day warfare, metal does not burn & thus cannot be used for kindling. These are stone age weapons materials.
The technology, knowledge, skills & experienced tradesman required to craft weapons as we know them today have been with us for only 150 years. It took thousands of years of development in human history before we graduated from weapons described in verse 9, the end of AntiChrist's rule will create a knowledge gap that God will not allow humankind to recover from, thus we have Gog & Magog coming to Israel with the types of weapons described in verse 9.
About 40 years ago there was a (Chick?) tract that explained this fulfillment of prophecy, in that Soviets had developed a material from super compressed wood that was lighter and more resilient than steel and burned better than coal.
It wouldn't matter, you can't make gun barrels from wood or any kind of composite materials. Gun barrels require "rifling" of the barrel to generate spinning action of the projectile to maintain accurate trajectory, can only do this with the high heat durability of steel which is readily machined for "rifling". The military in all countries have even ceased making gunstocks from wood because composite materials are lighter than wood and do not readily break down from heat generated by repeating action from the gun barrels onto which they are mounted. You can't build tanks from wood, nor rockets & missiles. Not much left you can make from wood in modern weapons technology is there?
Quote from: Paul L on September 13, 2012, 01:22:34 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on September 13, 2012, 06:12:12 AM
Quote from: Paul L on September 12, 2012, 11:54:21 PM
Ezek 39:9-10 is a description of the materials of the weapons of war Gog & Magog used against Israel at the conclusion of the Millenium. There was enough wood to be burned for the kindling of fires by the saints of Israel that the people did not need to cut down a single tree in Israel for seven years. That's a lot of wood. These described weapons cannot be of the type used in present day warfare, metal does not burn & thus cannot be used for kindling. These are stone age weapons materials.
The technology, knowledge, skills & experienced tradesman required to craft weapons as we know them today have been with us for only 150 years. It took thousands of years of development in human history before we graduated from weapons described in verse 9, the end of AntiChrist's rule will create a knowledge gap that God will not allow humankind to recover from, thus we have Gog & Magog coming to Israel with the types of weapons described in verse 9.
About 40 years ago there was a (Chick?) tract that explained this fulfillment of prophecy, in that Soviets had developed a material from super compressed wood that was lighter and more resilient than steel and burned better than coal.
It wouldn't matter, you can't make gun barrels from wood or any kind of composite materials. Gun barrels require "rifling" of the barrel to generate spinning action of the projectile to maintain accurate trajectory, can only do this with the high heat durability of steel which is readily machined for "rifling". The military in all countries have even ceased making gunstocks from wood because composite materials are lighter than wood and do not readily break down from heat generated by repeating action from the gun barrels onto which they are mounted. You can't build tanks from wood, nor rockets & missiles. Not much left you can make from wood in modern weapons technology is there?
Isaiah said,
Isaiah 2:2-4
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more.
If this prophecy describes the millennium, as the dispensationalists say, how can there be a rebellion at the end of it, where hordes of people come against the land of Israel, "horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: ... all of them with shield and helmet"? Also among the weapons are shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, handstaves, and spears. [Ezek. 39:11]
If the nations in the millennium do not learn war any more, how is it that after a thousand years of Christ's reign, they organize themselves into armies, and invade the promised land, looking for "silver and gold," and "cattle and goods," and a great spoil?
How come, if "nation shall not lift up sword against nation" in the millennium, these invaders from various nations at the end of the millennium are all equipped with
swords?
Doug
well, I don't know what to say, when you can read the news right out of the Bible before it even happens...
:umnick:
Smoke rising from US embassy compound in Yemen: Sky Arabia
By Gerry Davies || September 13, 2012 at 08:34 GMT
|| 1 comment || Add comment
Oh dear.....
UPDATE: Yemeni demonstrators storm the US embassy in Yemeni capital Sanaa, security forces open fire.
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 05:01:52 PM
well, I don't know what to say, when you can read the news right out of the Bible before it even happens...
:umnick:
Smoke rising from US embassy compound in Yemen: Sky Arabia
By Gerry Davies || September 13, 2012 at 08:34 GMT
|| 1 comment || Add comment
Oh dear.....
UPDATE: Yemeni demonstrators storm the US embassy in Yemeni capital Sanaa, security forces open fire.
Look at that smoke rising from the wreck of the theory of dispensationalism!
Doug
Quote from: Doug on September 13, 2012, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 05:01:52 PM
well, I don't know what to say, when you can read the news right out of the Bible before it even happens...
:umnick:
Smoke rising from US embassy compound in Yemen: Sky Arabia
By Gerry Davies || September 13, 2012 at 08:34 GMT
|| 1 comment || Add comment
Oh dear.....
UPDATE: Yemeni demonstrators storm the US embassy in Yemeni capital Sanaa, security forces open fire.
Look at that smoke rising from the wreck of the theory of dispensationalism!
Doug
I'm just a simple country girl.
I don't know what dispensationalism is so I don't understand your statement.
But, do you think God has put that hook into the mouth of Leviathan, yet?
:umnick:
CNN: Live shots being fired now, situation getting more and more tense
Strange how all hell breaks loose right after Mr. O. snubs Israel.
:umnick:
Obama 'snubs' Israeli leader on US visit
by Matt Spetalnick and Allyn Fisher-Ilan, September 13 2012
WASHINGTON — In a highly unusual rebuff to a close ally as tension increases over how to deal with Iran's nuclear program, the White House has said President Barack Obama would not meet Benjamin Netanyahu during the Israeli prime minister's US visit later this month.
http://www.bdlive.co.za/world/americas/2012/09/13/obama-snubs-israeli-leader-on-us-visit
There goes Tunisia
:umnick:
Anti-Islam film protests spread across Middle East
13 September 2012 Last updated at 10:46 ET
bbc.co.uk
Arab spring: an interactive timeline of Middle East protests
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2011/mar/22/middle-east-protest-interactive-timeline
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 05:22:08 PM
Quote from: Doug on September 13, 2012, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2012, 05:01:52 PM
well, I don't know what to say, when you can read the news right out of the Bible before it even happens...
:umnick:
Smoke rising from US embassy compound in Yemen: Sky Arabia
By Gerry Davies || September 13, 2012 at 08:34 GMT
|| 1 comment || Add comment
Oh dear.....
UPDATE: Yemeni demonstrators storm the US embassy in Yemeni capital Sanaa, security forces open fire.
Look at that smoke rising from the wreck of the theory of dispensationalism!
Doug
I'm just a simple country girl.
I don't know what dispensationalism is so I don't understand your statement.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism) says:
Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel (not necessarily the same as the state of Israel) is distinct from the Christian Church, and that God has yet to fulfill His promises to national Israel. These promises include the land promises, which in the future world to come result in a millennial kingdom and Third Temple where Christ, upon His return, will rule the world from Jerusalem for a thousand years.
They also promote a wooden literalist view of the prophecies of scripture which is equivalent to "dumbing down" bible prophecy. So, for example, they interpret Ezekiel's prophecy about Gog and Magog as a military invasion, in the territory of the ancient land of Canaan, or Palestine.
A wooden literal view insists that the horses the invaders ride are literal horses, their swords are literal swords, their bows and arrows are literal bows and arrows, their spears are literal spears, their shields are literal shields, and handstaves are literal handstaves. All these are said to be suitable for fuel, that supplies Israel's fuel for a literal seven years, so they have no need to cut down any trees, and so presumably all these weapons are made of wood. Some dispensationalists have broken ranks, and said the horses are not literal horses, but "attack helicopters," and bows and arrows are "missiles" and have made many other similar fantastic claims.
Obviously the theory is quite
flammable, metaphorically speaking, rather like wood, and so its claims can be used as fuel, instead of wood, and as it burns up, it produces lots of heat and smoke and noise, in a figurative sense of course.
Doug
Quote from: DougDispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel (not necessarily the same as the state of Israel) is distinct from the Christian Church, and that God has yet to fulfill His promises to national Israel. These promises include the land promises, which in the future world to come result in a millennial kingdom and Third Temple where Christ, upon His return, will rule the world from Jerusalem for a thousand years.
so how are current events sending this up in smoke?
Seems to me it is being played out right before our eyes.
Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah
--Psa 83
my, my...
:umnick:
There may be no anti-Islamic movie at all
Some interesting and convincing points are made.
By Dan Murphy, Staff writer / September 12, 2012
The online 14-minute clip of a purportedly anti-Islamic movie that sparked protests at the US embassy in Cairo and and the US consulate in Benghazi, Libya is now looking like it could have been ginned up by someone sitting in a basement with cheap dubbing software
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0912/There-may-be-no-anti-Islamic-movie-at-all
You wouldn't have to tell me twice. Uh, oh, Yemen is the gateway to Saudi Arabia. And, after all Mr. O did to help them out...go figure..
:umnick:
Americans told to leave Yemen amid anti-American protests
September 13, 2012
Following the protests in Egypt and the deadly attacks on the U.S. Embassy in Libya, hundreds of angry anti-American protesters in Yemen's capital are chanting "death to America" outside the U.S. Embassy compound there.
Amid the aggressive protests, Americans have been told to leave Yemen immediately for their own safety.
http://www.examiner.com/article/americans-told-to-leave-yemen-amid-anti-american-protests?
Tying modern events to revelations written in the Bible,
Is quite naughty.
:shakepoint:
Amazing how fast this has spread. Kind of like a ..virus...
:umnick:
Violent protests erupt at embassies as U.S. seeks killers
By Josh Levs and Tricia Escobedo, CNN
updated 12:46 PM EDT, Thu September 13, 2012
Since Tuesday's deadly assault in Libya -- and a protest the same day at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo -- demonstrations, both small and large, have been reported in Israel, Gaza, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco, Iraq, Iran and among Muslims in the Indian-controlled region of Kashmir. Security has been heightened at U.S. diplomatic missions worldwide.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/world/meast/embassy-attacks-main/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Quote from: Doug on September 13, 2012, 05:00:34 PM
Quote from: Paul L on September 13, 2012, 01:22:34 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on September 13, 2012, 06:12:12 AM
Quote from: Paul L on September 12, 2012, 11:54:21 PM
Ezek 39:9-10 is a description of the materials of the weapons of war Gog & Magog used against Israel at the conclusion of the Millenium. There was enough wood to be burned for the kindling of fires by the saints of Israel that the people did not need to cut down a single tree in Israel for seven years. That's a lot of wood. These described weapons cannot be of the type used in present day warfare, metal does not burn & thus cannot be used for kindling. These are stone age weapons materials.
The technology, knowledge, skills & experienced tradesman required to craft weapons as we know them today have been with us for only 150 years. It took thousands of years of development in human history before we graduated from weapons described in verse 9, the end of AntiChrist's rule will create a knowledge gap that God will not allow humankind to recover from, thus we have Gog & Magog coming to Israel with the types of weapons described in verse 9.
About 40 years ago there was a (Chick?) tract that explained this fulfillment of prophecy, in that Soviets had developed a material from super compressed wood that was lighter and more resilient than steel and burned better than coal.
It wouldn't matter, you can't make gun barrels from wood or any kind of composite materials. Gun barrels require "rifling" of the barrel to generate spinning action of the projectile to maintain accurate trajectory, can only do this with the high heat durability of steel which is readily machined for "rifling". The military in all countries have even ceased making gunstocks from wood because composite materials are lighter than wood and do not readily break down from heat generated by repeating action from the gun barrels onto which they are mounted. You can't build tanks from wood, nor rockets & missiles. Not much left you can make from wood in modern weapons technology is there?
If this prophecy describes the millennium, as the dispensationalists say, how can there be a rebellion at the end of it, where hordes of people come against the land of Israel, "horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: ... all of them with shield and helmet"? Also among the weapons are shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, handstaves, and spears. [Ezek. 39:11]
If the nations in the millennium do not learn war any more, how is it that after a thousand years of Christ's reign, they organize themselves into armies, and invade the promised land, looking for "silver and gold," and "cattle and goods," and a great spoil?
How come, if "nation shall not lift up sword against nation" in the millennium, these invaders from various nations at the end of the millennium are all equipped with swords?
Doug
Well Doug, I don't actually know everything "dispensationalists" believe about the Millenium. Many seem to think it will be a time of world peace & a loving thy neighbor sort of existence, but that is not the picture in Ezek 38 & 39. You are so steeped in Catholic Preterist theology that the present existence of a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital is nothing more to you than a product of a bunch of conspiracy theorists conspiring to make your church look bad. Consequently every sentence you produce here is steeped in so much replacement theology that nothing about the Bible is real unless it has approval of the Pontiff. Do you even believe there are nonCatholic Christians?
How do ten countries act like one mind with violent attacks on American embassies in each one? How do they organize one mind within 24 hours? Why is this happening now and not last year or the year before?
Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, and Libya have just gone through their so called 'arab spring' where they are supposedly embracing 'self governance and freedom and democracy' courtesy of Mr. O and Mrs. C. Has this past week's of out of the blue violence in any way resembled our idea of democracy and freedom?
To date, rulers have been forced from power in Tunisia,[1] Egypt,[2] Libya,[3] and Yemen;[4] civil uprisings have erupted in Bahrain[5] and Syria;[6] major protests have broken out in Algeria,[7] Iraq,[8] Jordan,[9] Kuwait,[10] Morocco,[11] and Sudan;[12] and minor protests have occurred in Lebanon,[13] Mauritania,[14] Oman,[15] Saudi Arabia,[16] Djibouti,[17] and Western Sahara.[18] Clashes at the borders of Israel in May 2011,[19] and the protests in by the Arab minority in Iranian Khuzestan erupted in 2011 as well.[20] Weapons and Tuareg fighters returning from the Libyan civil war stoked a simmering rebellion in Mali, and the consequent Malian coup d'état has been described as "fallout" from the Arab Spring in North Africa.[21] The sectarian clashes in Lebanon were described as a spillover violence of the Syrian uprising and hence the regional Arab Spring.[22] Most recently, in September 2012 a wave of social protests swept Palestinian Authority, demanding lower consumer prices and resignation of the Palestinian Prime Minister Fayyad.
What does the Psalmist prophesy about these middle east countries?
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: Psa 83
"confederate" [against thee]
H1285
בּרית
berı̂yth
ber-eeth'
From H1262 (in the sense of cutting (like H1254)); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh): - confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.
They are forming a caliphate with our help, one mind, one goal. wake up wake up wake
(This maybe "off topic". . .)
What has been on radio and TV news, the little I've heard from our government officials responding to the Moslem's murdering rampages of hatred and anger is very frustrating to me. How inexcusable, we absolutely do not align ourselves in any way with the video they say. Mrs. Clinton calls the video, "Completely unjustifiable." Nobody in the government remembers to mention there is freedom of speech in America, and we're struggling to keep it. Things in the media are not given the same value here as is given by those in societies where knowledge and books, and the popular media is state controlled with a religious agenda. Many of us tend to see right through contrived rants against something. We have freedom of religion here too, something else we are struggling to maintain. We can own a Koran, or a Bible, as well as other religious and philosophical literature; but, they cannot have Bibles. Has freedom of speech and religion here been passed by for something else?
Quote from: ReformerNobody in the government remembers to mention there is freedom of speech in America, and we're struggling to keep it.
Romney remembered and said it and has been beaten up by the press for two days because of it. He's the only one who said, look, these are our values and our laws and our Constitution and we support them.
But, I think you are absolutely right--if they can use this as a way to inhibit free speech, they will most certainly do it.
There wasn't even a movie, just a poorly made movie trailer, which is so amateurish and puerile that it is pretty much impossible to watch. Nor did the actors know what they were participating in, according to interviews, because the movie was dubbed after the fact.
Who made the movie trailer? Nobody seems to know, yet, but CNN is now suggesting an Egyptian Christian made it [after suggesting a Jew made it two days ago], so you get the drift. It must be the Jews and the Christians!
Meanwhile, I read that Sharia law calls slander anything that makes a muslim feel uncomfortable, and they would love to have this made a world wide law. I would guess that pretty much stifles the rest of the world who is not muslim from saying just about anything at all.
I saw an ambassador to the US being interviewed by Greta tonight (one of the rational-thinking ones, right? an ambassador). He said if someone makes a movie like that they should be investigated, that they're a terrorist like any other. Nice.
I think there's a disconnect somewhere. Probably goes back a few thousand years, don't you think?
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 05:10:12 AM
What does the Psalmist prophesy about these middle east countries?
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: Psa 83
For sure "the times they are a'changing". Rising prosperity inspires diverse cultures to impose their values on their neighbors. This is true whether you live in the Hamptons or in the Middle East. In the Hamptons where the 1% live, they look down on those who live in Nashville; in the middle east you are looked down on if you are not Muslim. If you live in Italy, you are looked down on if you are not Catholic, everybody imagines they are somehow superior to most of the rest of the world's populations & cultures. We are now coming upon the times when all these diverse cultures are violently clashing, and it's only just beginning.
Amidst all this Israel will not be found to be complacent in defending its right to exist even as most the rest of the world could care less that it does. Ps 83 certainly can be poignant to the extent that so many in the world want to see the country disappear, and sadly a lot of those living in the western world of so-called Christendom feel the same way. Uh........Preterists, Replacement Theologists, Muslims.......you have never been invested with with authority to rewrite the words of Holy Writ, God has merely allowed you a short season to display your pompous demeanor before he brings about your humility by the literal fulfillment of his Word.
Quote from: Paul L on September 14, 2012, 01:58:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2012, 05:10:12 AM
What does the Psalmist prophesy about these middle east countries?
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: Psa 83
The people listed in Psalm 83 include some that have disappeared from the earth, although some dispensationalists have linked them with modern nations in the mid-east. The attempts are misguided; for example Bill Saulus thinks that Edom refers to Palestinians. IMO he is uninformed, and his claims have no merit.
The people of Edom became Jews, when they were forced to convert by Johanan Hyrcanus about 130 BC. The dynasty of Herod was of Edomite ancestry.
Amalek, and Assur are also people mentioned in Psalm 83 who have disappeared. So clearly that psalm does not apply to particular modern nations in the Middle East. The list includes people who were enemies of Israel in ancient times. Perhaps the psalm is figurative of all the enemies of the saints.
Quote from: Paul L on September 14, 2012, 01:58:36 PM
For sure "the times they are a'changing". Rising prosperity inspires diverse cultures to impose their values on their neighbors. This is true whether you live in the Hamptons or in the Middle East. In the Hamptons where the 1% live, they look down on those who live in Nashville; in the middle east you are looked down on if you are not Muslim. If you live in Italy, you are looked down on if you are not Catholic, everybody imagines they are somehow superior to most of the rest of the world's populations & cultures. We are now coming upon the times when all these diverse cultures are violently clashing, and it's only just beginning.
Amidst all this Israel will not be found to be complacent in defending its right to exist even as most the rest of the world could care less that it does. Ps 83 certainly can be poignant to the extent that so many in the world want to see the country disappear, and sadly a lot of those living in the western world of so-called Christendom feel the same way. Uh........Preterists, Replacement Theologists, Muslims.......you have never been invested with with authority to rewrite the words of Holy Writ, God has merely allowed you a short season to display your pompous demeanor before he brings about your humility by the literal fulfillment of his Word.
The literalism advocated by dispensationalists is a "dumbing down" of the prophecies of scripture. Their approach often leads to absurd conclusions, and contradictions. And the dispensationalists can't agree on their interpretations. Classical dispensationalism, progressive dispensationalism, revised dispensationalism, ultradispensationalism, are some of the rival, competing varieties. For example, dispensationalist H. A. Ironside is noted for his blistering attack upon ultradispensationalism or Bullingerism. Perhaps their disputes fulfill Ezekiel 38:21, "And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother."
A "sword" in scripture can refer to a nasty style of speech.
Psalm 64:3
Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even
bitter words:
Doug
Quote from: Doug on September 14, 2012, 02:58:07 PM
The literalism advocated by dispensationalists is a "dumbing down" of the prophecies of scripture. Their approach often leads to absurd conclusions, and contradictions. And the dispensationalists can't agree on their interpretations. Classical dispensationalism, progressive dispensationalism, revised dispensationalism, ultradispensationalism, are some of the rival, competing varieties. Doug
It takes a Preterist to get this backwards Doug. Dispensationalists started their movement in the 1800's after the discoveries of Greek manuscripts written between 200 & 400 AD. Now the Catholic Church could no longer falsely declare itself as the safe harbor of Holy Writ by claiming it held the only documents inside the Vatican upon which Holy Writ is transcribed to an illiterate populace. With Christendom outside the Catholic church now in possession of much older documents, the Vatican could no longer keep its monopolistic stranglehold on the accuracy of the written script, so they pervert it with "replacement theology".
The only thing you point out with any reasonable degree of accuracy are points in detail where Dispensationalists disagree with one another, good thing they do, or I too would still be mired in their confusions about a few things. At least they're on the right track which is more than I can say about the Vatican which once wanted to execute Galileo for his declaration that the Sun is the center of the solar system & not the Earth.
In general, it would be reasonable to say, all apples are fruit. An old tradition says that the fruit Eve ate in the garden of Eden, and offered to Adam, was an apple. This gave rise to the association of apples with something that was desirable, but forbidden.
The city of New York is sometimes referred to as "the Big Apple," alluding to the carnal temptations there. Apparently this term was popularized in the 1920s by John J. Fitz Gerald, a sports writer for the New York Morning Telegraph, in a column about horse racing.
Corporations have also picked up on this imagery and made use of it for advertising purposes. Today, in the technological age, some apples are not fruit, but computers, or mobile phones, or similar devices. The name "apple" has been employed for its mythical associations, and now is used for things that have nothing to do with literal apples.
The ambiguous use of "apple" described above is parallel to the use of the term "Israel" in the New Testament.
Paul makes use of the contradictory meanings of the word Israel, already revealed in the Old Testament prophecies, in his epistle to the Romans.
Romans 9:6-8
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
His statement "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" may be compared with: "not all are apples, which are of apple."
This may seem to contradict, but obviously, the statement is meaningful, because of the different meanings and associations that may be attached to the word apple. It can mean a fruit, or a tree, or it may be understood as referring to a city, or to the name of a US corporation, or a device produced by that company. Perhaps this could be made more explicit: "not all are apples, which are of Apple."
Dispensationalists "dumb down" prophecy, when they say that there can only be one meaning for "Israel," and they declare that it applies only to those who are ethnic descendants of Jacob, along with those who by circumcision of the flesh, become Jews according to the law of Moses.
They deny that in the New Testament, "Israel" can take a spiritual meaning. Their denial is as silly and simplistic as if one were to deny that an "apple" can be anything other than a fruit.
Doug
Just reading the news
:umnick:
2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. Isa 19
Quote from: Paul L on September 14, 2012, 01:58:36 PM
Amidst all this Israel will not be found to be complacent in defending its right to exist even as most the rest of the world could care less that it does. Ps 83 certainly can be poignant to the extent that so many in the world want to see the country disappear, and sadly a lot of those living in the western world of so-called Christendom feel the same way. Uh........Preterists, Replacement Theologists, Muslims.......you have never been invested with with authority to rewrite the words of Holy Writ, God has merely allowed you a short season to display your pompous demeanor before he brings about your humility by the literal fulfillment of his Word.
I generally love the modern nation of Israel. A person doesn't even have to believe in the Bible to respect it as the only freedom loving republic in that area of the world. They're also the only modern country there. But, in questioning some of the dipSINsationalist doctrines about that country, I've found a lack of foundation; that is, no direct Biblical quotations saying the identical things as important assumptions they make. They use an interpretive process rather than quotations. They learn it from each other, without healthy cross checking with other approaches to understanding. If the modern "alyhah" is so important to interpret Biblical writings --which is what is being done, it's not prophesying-- then, why is there no prophesy of returning after the return from Babylon in Hebrew Scripture? There certainly is no mention of it in what men have called the New Testament.
Recently it has been popular to call "Replacement Theology" what history reveals was the theological position in so many churches for hundreds of years. I tend to consider the people united with and representing Institutional Christianity as that Mystery Babylon to which John refers. I certainly am under no obligation to believe or behave in line with what they promote as orthodoxy or orthopraxy.
What does it sound like to you when Jesus says, "The kingdom will be taken away from you and given to another people who will bear the fruit thereof." "They are being replaced" naturally comes to mind. The truth for most of us it is not a replacement, but a doctrine of God unfolding an advanced meaning that was in His original though. It is the next step up fom what went before, a continuum where the ancient root sustains our more recent grafting in. It is the mockers lie to call it replacement. The substance casting the shadows throughout the Hebrew Scriptures came in the person of Jesus, the Messiah, and His many-membered body, the Eclessia. While this superseded the religion of the ancient saints upon which it was built, nothing can supersede the revelation of the sons of God.
I take a bit here and a little there. I dearly love and consider the most profitable interpretations of Scripture to be symbolic. There are Literalist considerations, and Historicist too. I'm a partial Preterit because I can clearly see many fulfillments to prophecies. When I show those to some DipSINsationalists I get nowhere. They profess a belief in double fulfillment. I have certain pre-millennial ideas, the revealing of the sons of God and their taking charge of things that brings in the millennium. I'm a post-millennialist because I believe in a further coming of the Lord, His head and body, on a great white Throne. Heavens and earth fled and there was no place found for them due to the glory of this many-membered countenance.
Back to what I started with, modern Israel, what is it? What if "the great working of deception God sends to lead astray the nations that they may be judged that received not a love of the truth that they would be saved" proves to be something coming forth from Israel? Whether or not it was the real thing or a modern reconstruction, the world would go after the ark of the Covenant it it was found. Where would we find prophets coming in Jesus' name, calling fire down from heaven, using lazer holographic fire, maybe strong enough to consume from space someone who won't bow...
Quote from: ReformerThere certainly is no mention of it in what men have called the New Testament
Go back and read Romans 9, 10, and especially 11 four or five times.
Quote"The kingdom will be taken away from you and given to another people who will bear the fruit thereof
until until until
For the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2012, 08:31:13 AM
Quote from: ReformerThere certainly is no mention of it in what men have called the New Testament
Go back and read Romans 9, 10, and especially 11 four or five times.
Quote"The kingdom will be taken away from you and given to another people who will bear the fruit thereof
until until until
For the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.
"Until, until, until " is not a quotation of Scripture. And, there is NO mention of "alyhah," the return to the land, in Romans. I don't need to read page after page til I'm bamboozled about what my original question was. Quote it if the statement exists. It only requires a phrase, only just one in the Authors own Words.
Quote from: reFORMer on September 15, 2012, 08:45:48 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2012, 08:31:13 AM
Quote from: ReformerThere certainly is no mention of it in what men have called the New Testament
Go back and read Romans 9, 10, and especially 11 four or five times.
Quote"The kingdom will be taken away from you and given to another people who will bear the fruit thereof
until until until
For the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.
"Until, until, until " is not a quotation of Scripture. And, there is NO mention of "alyhah," the return to the land, in Romans. I don't need to read page after page til I'm bamboozled about what my original question was. Quote it if the statement exists. It only requires a phrase, only just one in the Authors own Words.
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me
until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"
Mat 23
Paul tells us when that 'until' happens--after we reach the fulness of the Gentiles [at the end of the age].
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2012, 08:58:32 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on September 15, 2012, 08:45:48 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2012, 08:31:13 AM
until until until
For the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.
"Until, until, until " is not a quotation of Scripture. And, there is NO mention of "alyhah," the return to the land, in Romans. I don't need to read page after page til I'm bamboozled about what my original question was. Quote it if the statement exists. It only requires a phrase, only just one in the Authors own Words.
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"
Mat 23
Paul tells us when that 'until' happens--after we reach the fulness of the Gentiles [at the end of the age].
Jesus did not mean they would not "see" him in a physical way, observing his flesh, because many of the Jews saw him after he said this, as he made his way to the cross. He must have meant to "see" him in the sense of understanding with their hearts and realizing who he was, their Saviour. He said to his disciples:
Luke 10:22-24
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
God has to open our minds, in order that we can
see Jesus.
John 14:6-10
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
How did those disciples see the Father? Not with eyes of flesh. The same applies to his words in Matthew 23:39, "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
On Pentecost, when many thousands of Jews believed, they said, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord," about the apostles who preached the gospel.
Jesus illustrated this same principle when he said,
Matthew 25:31-40
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2012, 04:30:40 AM
Just reading the news
:umnick:
2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. Isa 19
The prophets say that the devil wants to bring the end on his time schedule, but God has other plans, to prosper the nations, resurrect USA and bring the gospel to the middle east.
But also warn about political correctness and how FEAR can bring irrational laws in response to violent intimidation, stifling Gods people and the good of Christianity.
Quote from: DougGod has to open our minds, in order that we can see Jesus.
So true. Amen! And, they have been blinded. But, they will see Jesus in person when he returns at the end of the age to save them. And, Paul confirms to us when that 'until' will happen.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this
mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
--Romans 11
mOLLY I WISH YOU WOULD START A NEW THREAD ABOUT THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES. I HAVE HEARD TWO INTERPRETATIONS
ON IT,WHAT IT MEANS ETC.
Well sheila, don't you just start it on your own, without the help of Molly? You have that privilege, go for it! :banana:
I don't know what these people are complaining about. Twenty one countries simultaneously attacking American embassies looks like a great job of community organizing to me. Why, it's almost a....caliphate.
:umnick:
State Department to press: Stop asking us about the sacking of Benghazi consulate
posted at 11:31 am on September 15, 2012 by Ed Morrissey
The US insists that the death of an American ambassador and three others in Benghazi resulted from a riot spinning out of control over a cheesy YouTube video. The Libyan government insists that the operation that sacked the consulate and assassinated the four diplomatic personnel was a well-planned plot that exploited the rioting. Who to believe? Whatever you think, don't bother asking the State Department, because they have told the media they're done discussing it:
The State Department told reporters Friday afternoon that it won't answer any more questions about the Sept. 11 attack on the consulate in Benghazi that killed four Americans until the investigation into the incident is complete.
"I'm going to frustrate all of you, infinitely, by telling you that now that we have an open FBI investigation on the death of these four Americans, we are not going to be in a position to talk at all about what the U.S. government may or may not be learning about how any of this this happened — not who they were, not how it happened, not what happened to Ambassador Stevens, not any of it — until the Justice Department is ready to talk about the investigation that's its got," State Department spokeswoman Victorian Nuland told reporters late Friday afternoon.
"So I'm going to send to the FBI for those kinds of questions and they're probably not going to talk to you about it," she said.
They won't answer any questions at all while the investigation continues? That seems awfully convenient, especially since State had the responsibility for securing that mission in Benghazi in the first place — and on the anniversary of 9/11, a time when one might expect some kind of attack attempt. Fox News military analyst Col. David Hunt told Breitbart's Michael Patrick Leahy that the security policy for all Libyan diplomatic missions was determined last year after the fall of Moammar Qaddafi, and signed by Hillary Clinton — and that it "severely compromised" the safety of the diplomatic staff:
Hunt told Breitbart News that the new State Department Rules of Engagement for Libya, approved and signed by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton since the 2011 fall of Khadafi's regime, severely compromised the safety and security of murdered Ambassador Stevens and all American diplomatic staff in Libya.
He also stated that the decision not to staff Benghazi with Marines was made by Secretary of State Clinton when she attached her signature to the State Department Rules of Engagement for Libya document. Breitbart News has subsequently learned that under those rules of engagement, Secretary Clinton prohibited Marines from providing security at any American diplomatic installation in Libya.
Hunt told Breitbart News that "the rules of engagement have been changing drastically over the last 10 years. . . The reason the surge in Iraq worked was we had another 40,000 soldiers and the rules of engagement were changed to allow our guys to shoot. What's happened in Libya is the final straw of political correctness. We allowed a contractor to hire local nationals as security guards, but said they can't have bullets. This was all part of the point of not having a high profile in Libya."
According to Hunt, the debacle at the American mission in Benghazi is directly the result of Obama's new policies. "The policy of the Obama administration led to this," he said.
The building in Benghazi lacked even the basic security amenities, like bulletproof glass, Hunt claimed, and the building itself as insubstantial as "an outhouse." If these indeed were the security arrangements, it reminds me of the UN's mission in Baghdad after the fall of Saddam Hussein. The UN refused to use troops from the US and UK to secure the facility, instead placing themselves outside of the American "Green Zone" in Baghdad and hiring local security forces. Shortly afterward in August 2003, terrorists attacked the UN facility and killed the mission's leader, Sergio Viera de Mello, 21 others, and wounded more than 100. After a second attack just a month later, the UN withdrew its mission entirely.
Not only should we have learned a lesson from that attack, we should also have learned a lesson from the map. While Tripoli remains fairly secure in the western part of Libya, Benghazi is located on the other side of the country — where radical Islamist groups have percolated for years. Al-Qaeda in Iraq recruited heavily from that part of the country while fighting the US in western Iraq particularly, and the fall of Qaddafi has allowed these groups — including AQ — to operate more openly. That was one of the big concerns when Obama pushed NATO into a war against Qaddafi; deposing him would leave a power vacuum into which radical Islamists could seize control of at least parts of a fractured Libya. If no one at State understood that well enough to know that diplomatic missions in Libya and especially in Benghazi would need stronger rather than lighter security, one has to wonder what exactly they were thinking.
Of course, we can't ask them now, because they're refusing to answer any questions. That led to this interesting question from a reporter at the presser:
Reporters at the briefing pointed out that the officials on that conference call noted that they were giving out preliminary information that might have been wrong and if the State Department doesn't talk about the night's events ever again, that wrong information would remain uncorrected in the public sphere.
"The U.S. government is going to be happy to let incorrect information stand?" one reporter asked.
Perhaps incorrect information serves their interests better than the truth, eh?
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/09/15/state-department-to-press-stop-asking-us-about-the-sacking-of-benghazi-consulate/
Hey, are we prophesying or is it biblical speculation, from current events.... as we see it? In other words, just how some find the Bible to be understood perhaps for panic or peace. I mean there are some folks who have regretted standing on a mountain in the south west waiting for (a) [the] rapture, that just never happened.
For me it is just sad, sad.. that folks who believe and I mean really believe.. sad that they just refuse to WAIT on the Lord and that they need to have it all figured out for Him, and doing so, they just hype the population[of believers] into hyperbole. Sad.
QuoteHey, are we prophesying or is it biblical speculation, from current events
Since these current events were already predicted on this thread [and the lost thread] before they happened, based on Bible passages, I guess it could pass for prophecy. God must want us to have some idea what he is doing before he does it--Especially since at least 25 percent of the Bible is prophecy-.
The question really is---Do current events accurately fulfill the prophetic passages we are looking at? That is, if one wishes to take them literally.
There's a big difference, on the one hand, between Bible provoked speculations and interpretations, even attempting to read the daily news and Scripture as interacting aspects of the same thing and, on the other hand, actual prophecy. God wants us all to prophecy. It is an aspect of the new man in promise, a foretaste of what being born of God will mean. Prophecy is not Bible interpretation. Scripture says of itself that what is put on stone, what is ink on paper, that is the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is written on the fleshy tables of our hearts and minds by the Holy Ghost. So the Books explained or the Spirit's quickening, this is the choice. I know there's sort of a false dichotomy here; but, the high road needs to be recognized and committed to, not to the exclusion of the other, but to the determination of what will mark our lives.
Quote from: reFORMer on September 16, 2012, 08:04:37 AM
There's a big difference, on the one hand, between Bible provoked speculations and interpretations, even attempting to read the daily news and Scripture as interacting aspects of the same thing and, on the other hand, actual prophecy. God wants us all to prophecy. It is an aspect of the new man in promise, a foretaste of what being born of God will mean. Prophecy is not Bible interpretation. Scripture says of itself that what is put on stone, what is ink on paper, that is the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is written on the fleshy tables of our hearts and minds by the Holy Ghost. So the Books explained or the Spirit's quickening, this is the choice. I know there's sort of a false dichotomy here; but, the high road needs to be recognized and committed to, not to the exclusion of the other, but to the determination of what will mark our lives.
I agrre that we are becoming the prophets of God, I believe we are to see that the ten commandments were not just laws to be obeyed, but were the promises (prophecy) of God, that in the end, when He completes everything, we shall have no other Gods before Him; we shall not make any graven images; we shall remember the Sabbath and to keep it Holy and so on.
Here is a bit of prophecy from what I believe is of the Spirit through me; the flood is coming, not with water, but of the Spirit, this world is reserved for fire and that fire being the refining fire of the Father through His Spirit. We are going to start seeing more and more of what the Father is doing in all of us through Christ and His Spirit, we will see the flood of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit throughout mankind.
The example of Noah taking the animals upon the ark, two by two, is what I believe is us bringing others unto the ark of understanding, giving both viewpoints at once, each pair of understanding one set at a time. What is righteous and unrighteous, what is good and what is evil, what God is doing and what men are doing.
We are called to present both sides of the story at once to those who will hunger for the truth, the famine that is to come upon this world is one of; people are not going to know where to turn in order to understand what happened to them when they are doused with the Spirit, they will thirst and the water of the Spirit will be hard to come by, it is this we are to recognize and bring them alongside to help them understand and quench their thirst.
People can believe what they want, that is our free will, but it is this understanding that I believe in and am waiting upon so that I may become a servant to serve the water of the Spirit to those who are thirsty and my hope rests in that I will hear the words, "well done good and faithful servant".
Iran Warns Israel, U.S. Against Attack
By ALI AKBAR DAREINI 09/16/12 06:04 AM
TEHRAN -- The top commander in Iran's powerful Revolutionary Guard warned Sunday that "nothing will remain" of Israel if it takes military action against Tehran over its controversial nuclear program.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/16/iran-warns-israel-us-against-attack_n_1887863.html
The article reports that Iran has 'close ties' to Gaza and Lebanon [Hezbollah and Hamas], implying that Israel will be attacked on her borders should she attack Iran.
3 The voice of the Lord is heard over the waters.
The God of glory thunders.
The Lord thunders over the mighty waters.
4 The voice of the Lord is powerful.
The voice of the Lord is majestic.
5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedar trees.
The Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon into pieces.
6 He makes the mountains of Lebanon skip like a calf.
He makes Mount Hermon jump like a young wild ox.
7 The voice of the Lord strikes
with flashes of lightning.
8 The voice of the Lord shakes the desert.
The Lord shakes the Desert of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the Lord twists the oak trees.
It strips the forests bare.
And in his temple everyone cries out, "Glory!"
--Psa 29
Mount Hermon (Arabic: جبل الشيخ / ALA-LC: Jabal al-Shaykh / "Mountain of the Chief"; Hebrew: הר חרמון, Har Hermon, "Mount Hermon") is a mountain cluster in the Anti-Lebanon mountain range. Its summit straddles the border between Syria and Lebanon[1] and, at 2,814 m (9,232 ft) above sea level, is the highest point in Syria.
--Wikipedia
However, since 1905 modern Ain el-Qudeirat in the Wadi el-Ain of the northern Sinai has been widely accepted as the location of biblical Kadesh Barnea
--Wikipedia
He makes the mountains of Lebanon skip like a calf--earthquake!
I decided it was time to pay Israel's enemies back.
The year for me to set my people free had come. Isa 63
It seems Molly and the Islamic leaders are on the same page.(or pages)
Quote from: dajomaco on September 16, 2012, 07:16:40 PM
It seems Molly and the Islamic leaders are on the same page.(or pages)
Not really. They think Jesus is going to return and kill all the Christians and Jews.
Their page is my page upsidedown.
Sam Harris: Islam is not a religion of peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LfKLV6rmLxE
Muslim Leader Admits Islam Not a Religion of Peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64V09tTIjR4&feature=related
i WILL TELL YOU THIS. OVER A YEAR AGO I READ ON A SITE..THAT HAD SOME WRITINGS OF MUHAMMED'S FIRST WIFE. SUPPOSEDLY
IT WAS THIS BOOK/EXPOSE THAT REVEALED HOMOSEXUALITY AND CHILD MOLESTATION. I CAN NOT RECALL THE NAME OF THE SITE
BUT I BELEIVE IT WAS HEADED BY A FORMER MUSLIM WOMAN. IT IS THESE VERY THINGS THAT ARE SUPPOSEDLY IN THE FILM
Quote from: Molly on September 16, 2012, 06:01:52 PM
...
3 The voice of the Lord is heard over the waters.
The God of glory thunders.
The Lord thunders over the mighty waters.
4 The voice of the Lord is powerful.
The voice of the Lord is majestic.
5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedar trees.
The Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon into pieces.
6 He makes the mountains of Lebanon skip like a calf.
He makes Mount Hermon jump like a young wild ox.
7 The voice of the Lord strikes
with flashes of lightning.
8 The voice of the Lord shakes the desert.
The Lord shakes the Desert of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the Lord twists the oak trees.
It strips the forests bare.
And in his temple everyone cries out, "Glory!"
--Psa 29
Mount Hermon (Arabic: جبل الشيخ / ALA-LC: Jabal al-Shaykh / "Mountain of the Chief"; Hebrew: הר חרמון, Har Hermon, "Mount Hermon") is a mountain cluster in the Anti-Lebanon mountain range. Its summit straddles the border between Syria and Lebanon[1] and, at 2,814 m (9,232 ft) above sea level, is the highest point in Syria.
--Wikipedia
...
He makes the mountains of Lebanon skip like a calf--earthquake!
The psalm quoted probably has nothing to do with earthquakes. Mount Hermon was originally called Zion.
Deuteronomy 3:8-9
And we took at that time out of the hand of the two kings of the Amorites the land that was on this side Jordan, from the river of Arnon unto mount Hermon;
(Which Hermon the Sidonians call Sirion; and the Amorites call it Shenir;)
Deuteronomy 4:48
From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,
Psalm 133:1-3
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.
The name
Zion was applied to a hill in Jerusalem, where the temple was built, in David's time. So perhaps it was the label "Zion" that "skipped" all the way from the Lebanon area to Jerusalem. No earthquake was involved.
Psalm 125:1
They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.
Jesus identified himself with the temple. The Jerusalem temple was a type of the true temple, which is the church, of which Jesus is the chief corner stone, and the apostles and prophets the foundation. [Eph. 2:20] This is the Zion which cannot be removed. Jesus ascended to heaven, to his Father's throne. The true temple is "built without hands." The earthly temple was destroyed by the Romans, so that one cannot be the one referred to in Psa. 125:1. Paul said to the Athenians, "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands." [Acts 17:24]
All believers have come to "mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem." [Heb. 12:22]
David said, mountains "skipped like rams" when Israel left Egypt.
Psalm 114
1 When Israel went out of Egypt, the house of Jacob from a people of strange language;
2 Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.
3 The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back.
4 The mountains skipped like rams, and the little hills like lambs.
5 What ailed thee, O thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou wast driven back?
6 Ye mountains, that ye skipped like rams; and ye little hills, like lambs?
7 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob;
8 Which turned the rock into a standing water, the flint into a fountain of waters.
When lambs and rams
skip, they become airborne.
These mountains are clearly metaphorical. The nation of Israel possessed the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and these are the "mountains" that skipped like rams, as Israel went from campsite to campsite in the wilderness, till they reached the promised land. The nation of Israel is referred to as a mountain by Ezekiel. For example,
Ezekiel 20:40
For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
The oracles of God, committed to Israel, were among their chief possessions, according to Paul.
Romans 3:1-2
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
They are represented metaphorically by "mountains" in several prophecies. Peter said,
2 Peter 1:3-4
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust
Perhaps when he said the promises of God are "exceeding great and precious" he was alluding to their identification with mountains, which can be traced back to Genesis 49:26.
Doug
Here you go, Doug, work on these lines, you forgot about them:
5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedar trees.
The Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon into pieces.
7 The voice of the Lord strikes
with flashes of lightning.
8 The voice of the Lord shakes the desert.
The Lord shakes the Desert of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the Lord twists the oak trees.
It strips the forests bare.
I decided it was time to pay Israel's enemies back.
The year for me to set my people free had come.
Quote from: Molly on September 16, 2012, 08:33:41 PM
Here you go, Doug, work on these lines, you forgot about them:
5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedar trees.
The Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon into pieces.
7 The voice of the Lord strikes
with flashes of lightning.
8 The voice of the Lord shakes the desert.
The Lord shakes the Desert of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the Lord twists the oak trees.
It strips the forests bare.
I decided it was time to pay Israel's enemies back.
The year for me to set my people free had come.
A commentary on this psalm, The Psalms, tr. and explained by J. A. Alexander (http://books.google.ca/books?pg=PA235&id=Wz8HAAAAQAAJ) says:
[begin quote: pp. 230-236]
PSALM XXIX.
The essential idea in this psalm is the same as in the twenty-eighth, to wit, that God is the strength of his people, but clothed in a different costume, the divine power being proved or exemplified by its exertion in the elements, and then applied, in the close, to the believer's consolation. The Psalmist first invokes the heavenly host to celebrate their sovereign's honour, vs. 1, 2. He then describes Jehovah's voice as producing the most striking physical effects, vs. 3--9, and represents it as belonging to the same God who presided at the deluge and who now protects and will continue to protect his people, vs. 10, 11. The superficial notion that this psalm is merely a description of a thunderstorm, or of Jehovah as the God of thunder, may be corrected by observing that the last verse gives the key-note of the whole composition.
...
2.
Give to Jehovah the honour of his name; bow to Jehovah in beauty of holiness. The honour of his name is that belonging to it. His name is manifested in nature. See above, on Ps. v. 12. The verb in the last clause strictly means, bow down or prostrate yourselves in worship.--
The beauty of holiness is by many understood to mean holy or consecrated garments, such as were put on in the place of ordinary dress, as a token of reverence, by the priests when they approached into the presence of Jehovah. See 2 Chr. xx. 21. But neither here nor in Ps. xcvi. 9. ex. 3, is there any valid objection to the obvious but spiritual sense of ornament produced by or consisting in holiness, such decoration as became the peculiar people of Jehovah. Compare 1 Peter iii. 3--5.
3.
The voice of Jehovah on the waters! The God of glory thundered. The voice of Jehovah (was)
on many waters. The invocation to the heavenly host in the two preceding verses is now justified by an appeal to one particular manifestation of God's majesty, to wit, that afforded by the tempestuous strife of elements.--The first clause may be construed as an exclamation, or the substantive verb may be supplied, either in the past or present tense. The preterite form of the original does not relate to any specific point of past time, but merely shows that the phenomena described have been heretofore witnessed, and though grand are nothing new. Our present tense gives the sense correctly, but with a departure from the idiomatic form of the original.--
The God of Glory contains an allusion to vs. 1, 2. Compare Ps. xxiv. 7--10.--
On (or
above)
the waters, i. e. the clouds charged with rain. See above, on Ps. xviii. 12 (11), and compare Jer. x. 13.
4.
The voice of Jehovah in power! The voice of Jehovah in majesty! The exclamations, as in v. 3, may be converted into propositions by supplying either the past or present tense of the verb
to be. 'The voice of Jehovah is (or was) in power. In power, in majesty, i. e. invested with these attributes, a stronger expression than the corresponding adjectives,
strong and
majestic, would be, and certainly more natural and consonant to usage than the construction which makes
in a mere sign of that in which something else consists. It is indeed little short of nonsense to affirm that the voice of God consists in power, consists in majesty, whereas there is truth as well as beauty in describing it as clothed or invested with those qualities.
5.
The voice of Jehovah (is) breaking cedars, and Jehovah has broken the cedars of Lebanon. In the powerful working of the elements the Psalmist hears the voice of God. That this expression always denotes thunder (Ex. ix. 28), is a perfectly gratuitous assumption.--Cedars are mentioned as the loftiest forest trees, and those of Lebanon as the loftiest of the species. Between the verbs of the two clauses there is a twofold variation which appears to be significant. The first is the primitive verb which simply means to break; the other an intensive form, implying an extraordinary violence. See above, Ps. iii. 8 (7.) This distinction can be reproduced in English only by a change of verb (break and crush), or by some qualifying addition (break and break in pieces.) But besides this variation, the first word is an active participle (breaking) and the second a finite tense denoting past time (broke or has broken), which together may indicate progression (it is breaking and now he has broken) or express the same idea, namely, that he habitually breaks, or has often broken, the cedars of Lebanon.
6.
And made them skip like a calf, Lebanon and Sirion like the young of the unicorns (
antelopes or wild bulls.) The pronoun in the first clause may refer to
cedars, or by anticipation to
Lebanon and Sirion. This last is the Sidonian name of Hermon (Deut. iii. 9), the principal summit in the range of Anti-libanus, here mentioned simply as a parallel to
Lebanon, without any special local reference. By a similar rhetorical specification, the natural vivacity of young animals is specially ascribed to a particular species, well known to the writer and his readers as remarkable for wildness and agility. See above, on Ps. xxii. 22 (21.)
7.
The voice of Jehovah (
is)
hewing flames (or
with flames)
of fire. The reference to lightning in this verse is universally admitted, some even seeing an allusion to the brief and sudden flash in the single clause of which the sentence is composed. Interpreters are not agreed, however, with respect to the specific image here presented. Some understand the act described to be that of
cleaving or
dividing, in allusion to the forked appearance of a flash of lightning; others that of
hewing out, extracting, flames; and others that of
hewing with them, i. e. using them as weapons of warfare or instruments of vengeance. This last construction is a common one in Hebrew, and is favoured here by the analogy of Isai. li. 9. Hos. vi. 5, where the same verb is applied to God's penal judgments.--The voice of God must here mean his authority or order, as it could not be said without absurdity, that the thunder either hews the lightning or hews with it.
8.
The voice of Jehovah is about to shake the wilderness; Jehovah will shake wilderness of Kadesh. This is equivalent to saying that he can do so, the Hebrew verb having no distinct potential form. The verb translated
shake is stronger, meaning properly to
cause to tremble. Having spoken of God's power as exerted on the mountains, he now says the same thing of the desert; and as the mountains which he specified were on the northern frontier, so the wilderness which he selects is that which bounded Palestine upon the south, the northern portion of the great Arabian desert, with which the Israelites had many strong associations, founded partly in their personal experience, but still more in their national history. See Deut. i. 19. viii. 15. xxxii. 10. It is in this point of view, and not simply as a plain, which it is not in its whole extent, that the wilderness of Kadesh is here added to Mount Lebanon.
9.
The voice of Jehovah can make hinds bring forth, and strip forests; and in his temple, all of it says, Glory! The use of the futures is the same as in the foregoing verse. As if to show that the divine control extends to things both small and great, the Psalmist passes suddenly from lofty mountains and vast deserts to the weakest animals, in whom the terror of his presence hastens the throes of parturition. See Job xxxix. 1--3, and compare 1 Sam. iv. 19. He then returns to more imposing natural phenomena, such as the stripping of the leaves and branches from whole forests by a mighty wind, which, no less than the thunder, is to be regarded as the voice of God.--The temple or palace mentioned in the last clause is not the temple at Jerusalem, nor any earthly structure, but heaven, or the whole frame of nature, considered as God's royal residence. See above, on Ps. v. 8 (7.) Throughout this palace,
all of it, i. e. all its parts, its contents, or its inhabitants--with special reference perhaps to the angelic hosts invoked in v. 1, who are then described as doing what he there invites them to do--not merely
speaks of his glory, as the English version has it, but
says "glory!" as their constant and involuntary exclamation. As to the true sense of the verb ..., see above, on Ps. iv. 5(4.)
10.
Jehovah at the flood sat (
enthroned),
and Jehovah sits (as)
King to eternity. There are only two ways in which this verse can be understood. It must either be explained as introducing a new trait in the description of a tempest, namely, that of a flood or inundation--or referred to the universal deluge, as the grandest instance of the natural changes which had been described. In favour of the latter explanation may be urged the intrinsic grandeur of the image which it calls up, its better agreement with the solemn declaration in the last clause, the peculiar fitness of a great historical example just in this place, and the invariable usage of ... to mean Noah's flood. The sense of the whole verse may be thus expressed in paraphrase. The God whose voice now produces these effects is the God who sat enthroned upon the deluge, and this same God is still reigning over nature and the elements, and will be able to control them forever.
11.
Jehovah strength to his people will give; Jehovah will bless his people (
with)
peace. This is the application of the whole psalm, clearly showing that the description of external changes was not given for its own sake, or for mere poetical effect, but as a source of consolation and a ground of hope to true believers, who are here assured, in a pregnant summary of all that goes before, that the God who is thus visible and audible in nature, who presided at the flood and is to reign forever, is pledged to exercise the power thus displayed for the protection and well-being of his people.
[/quote]
Doug
Here is what Israel should say.
Many times my enemies have beaten me down ever since I was a young nation.
2 Many times my enemies have beaten me down ever since I was a young nation,
but they haven't won the battle.
3 They have made deep wounds in my back.
It looks like a field a farmer has plowed.
4 The Lord does what is right.
Sinners had tied me up with ropes. But the Lord has set me free.
5 May all those who hate Zion
be driven back in shame.
6 May they be like grass that grows on the roof of a house.
It dries up before it can grow.
7 There isn't enough of it to fill a person's hand.
There isn't enough to tie up and carry away.
8 May no one who passes by say to those who hate Zion,
"May the blessing of the Lord be on you.
We bless you in the name of the Lord."
---Psa 129
Try this link to an opening up of the 29th Psalm by Elwin Roach
The Seven Voices of the Son of God
http://www.godfire.net/Seven.html (http://www.godfire.net/Seven.html)
A Jewish man's testimony of Christ
Through reading Old Testament prophecy he realized Jesus was the Messiah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgizTuBVudQ&feature=related
Jews for Jesus in Israel
"Jesus will not return until the Jews say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord'."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2q_3sktQBY&feature=related
Quote from: reFORMer on September 17, 2012, 07:49:04 AM
Try this link to an opening up of the 29th Psalm by Elwin Roach
The Seven Voices of the Son of God
http://www.godfire.net/Seven.html (http://www.godfire.net/Seven.html)
Wow, Thanks.... I read a few paragraphs and this is gonna be fun :gimmefive:
:sigh: :umnick:
WND EXCLUSIVE
Iran: Jerusalem will be Israeli 'graveyard'
'If Jews do not leave, there will be no other way but to bury all of its inhabitants'
http://www.wnd.com/2012/09/iran-jerusalem-will-be-israeli-graveyard/
Those of you familiar with Jewish holidays, [ww,etc] can you think of a good reason why Israel would attack Iran on Yom Kippur? [evening of sept 25 to sunset of sept 26]
What is Yom Kippur?
The holiest day of the year. Fasting and atonement, solemnity and joy...
Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the year--the day on which we are closest to G‑d and to the quintessence of our own souls. It is the Day of Atonement--"For on this day He will forgive you, to purify you, that you be cleansed from all your sins before G‑d" (Leviticus 16:30).
For nearly twenty-six hours--from several minutes before sunset on Tishrei 9 to after nightfall on Tishrei 10--we "afflict our souls": we abstain from food and drink, do not wash or anoint our bodies, do not wear leather footwear, and abstain from marital relations.
Before Yom Kippur we perform the Kaparot atonement service; we request and receive honey cake, in acknowledgement that we are all recipients in G-d's world and in prayerful hope for a sweet and abundant year; eat a festive meal; immerse in a mikvah; and give extra charity. Late afternoon we eat the pre-fast meal, following which we bless our children, light a memorial candle as well as the holiday candles, and go to the synagogue for Kol Nidrei services.
In the course of Yom Kippur we hold five prayer services: Maariv, with its solemn Kol Nidrei service, on the eve of Yom Kippur; Shacharit--the morning prayer, which includes the reading from Leviticus followed by the yizkor memorial service; Musaf, which includes a detailed account of the Yom Kippur Temple service; Minchah, which includes the reading of the Book of Jonah; and Neilah, the "closing of the gates" service at sunset. We say the Al Chet confession of sins eight times in the course of Yom Kippur, and recite Psalms every available moment.
The day is the most solemn of the year, yet an undertone of joy suffuses it: a joy that revels in the spirituality of the day and expresses the confidence that G-d will accept our repentance, forgive our sins, and seal our verdict for a year of life, health and happiness. The closing Neilah service climaxes in the resounding cries of "Hear O Israel... G-d is one." Then joy erupts in song and dance (a Chabad custom is to sing the lively "Napoleon's March"), followed by a single blast of the shofar, followed by the proclamation, "Next year in Jerusalem." We then partake of a festive after-fast meal, making the evening after Yom Kippur a Yom Tov (festival) in its own right.
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/JewishNewYear/template_cdo/aid/177886/jewish/What-is-Yom-Kippur.htm
8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.
--Isa 41
shana tovah u'metukah
A history lesson on Islam, Christianity, and the Middle East
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y
2 ESDRAS 15; 28 WHAT A TERIFYING SIGHT APPEARING FROM THE EAST. THE NATIONS OF THE DRAGONS OF ARABIA
SHALL COME OUT WITH MANY CHARIOTS, AND FROM THE DAY THAT THEY SET OUT, THEIR HISSING SHALL SPREAD OVER THE EARTH,
SO THAT ALL WHO HEAR THEM SHALL FEAR AND TREMBLE.
ALSO THE CARMONIANS[PARTHIAN EMPIRE] RAGING IN WRATH SHALL GO FORTH LIKE WILD BOARS FROM THE FOREST
AND WITH GREAT POWER THEY SHALL COME AN ENGAGE THEM IN BATTLE, AND WITH THEIR TUSKS THEY SHALL DEVISTATE A
PORTION OF THE LAND OF THE ASSYRIANS WITH THEIR TEETH
AND THEN THE DRAGONS REMEMBERING THEIR ORIGIN SHALL BECOME STILL STRONGER; AND IF THEY COMBINE IN GREAT POWER
AND TURN TO PURSUE THEM, THEN THESE SHALL BE DISORGANIZED AND SILENCED BY THEIR POWER,AND SHALL TURN AND FLEE
SEE THE CLOUDS FROM THE EAST AND FROM THE NORTH TO THE SOUTH THEIR APPEARANCE IS EXCEEDINGLY THREATENING,
FULL OF WRATH AND STORM. THEY SHALL CLASH AGAINST ONE ANOTHER AND POUR OUT A HEAVY TEMPEST UPON THE EARTH,
AND THEIR OWN TEMPEST. AND THERE SHALL BE BLOOD FROM THE SWORD AS HIGH AS A HORSES BELLY AND A MAN'S THIGH
AND A CAMELS HOCK.........
CH 16;18 THE BEGINNING OF SORROWS WHEN THERE SHALL BE MUCH LAMENTATION THE BEGINNING OF FAMINE, WHEN
MANY SHALL PERISH THE BEGINNING OF WARS WHEN THE POWERS SHALL BE TERRIFIED THE BEGINNING OF CALAMATIES.
FAMINE PLAGUE TRIBULATION ANGUISH ARE SENT OF SCOURGES FOR THE CORRECTION OF HUMANKIND...
21 INDEED PROVISIONS WILL BE SO CHEAP UPON EARTH THAT PEOPLE WILL IMAGINE THAT PEACE IS ASSURED FOR THEM........
V 40 HEAR MY WORDS OMY PEOPLE PREPARE FOR BATTLE,AND IN THE MIDST OF THE CALAMITIES BE LIKE STRANGERS ON THE EARTH
V 68 THE BURNING WRATH OF A GREAT MULTITUDE IS KINDLED OVER YOU..THEY SHALL DRAG SOME OF YOU AWAY
AND FORCE YOU TO EAT WHAT IS OFFERED TO IDOLS........FOR IN MANY PLACES AND IN NEIGHBORING CITIES
THERE SHALL BE A GREAT UPRISING OF THOSE WHO FEAR THE LORD
THEY SHALL BE LIKE MANIACS SPARING NO-ONE BUT PLUNDERING AND DESTROYING THOSE WHO FEAR THE LORD
THEN THE TESTED QUALITY OF MY ELECT SHALL BE LIKE GOLD THAT IS TESTED BY FIRE
LISTEN MY ELECT ONES THE DAYS OF TRIBULATION ARE AT HAND BUT I WILL DELIVER YOU FROM THEM
:umnick:
Armada of international naval power massing in the Gulf as Israel prepares an Iran strike
An armada of US and British naval power is massing in the Persian Gulf in the belief that Israel is considering a pre-emptive strike against Iran's suspected nuclear weapons programme.
Cruisers, aircraft carriers and minesweepers from 25 nations are converging on the strategically important Strait of Hormuz in an unprecedented show of force as Israel and Iran move towards the brink of war.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-international-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html
Quote from: Molly on September 20, 2012, 10:35:37 AM
:umnick:
Armada of international naval power massing in the Gulf as Israel prepares an Iran strike
An armada of US and British naval power is massing in the Persian Gulf in the belief that Israel is considering a pre-emptive strike against Iran's suspected nuclear weapons programme.
Cruisers, aircraft carriers and minesweepers from 25 nations are converging on the strategically important Strait of Hormuz in an unprecedented show of force as Israel and Iran move towards the brink of war.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-international-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html
The ships of "Chittum" (coastlands), Dan 11:30. You can bet that between now & the appearance of the False Messiah (Anti-Christ) that this whole area will be a staging point for world navies. Just as we see a dry run of those events occurring right now, it will be an even bigger event during the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. The ships of Chittum are all the world's navies as they gather just off the coast of Israel to support the False Messiah in his battle against Israel's true messiah.
36 "A certain king will do as he pleases. He will honor himself. He will put himself above every god. He will say things that have never been heard before against the greatest God of all. He will have success until God is not angry anymore. What God has decided to do must take place.
37 "The king will not show any respect for the gods his people have always worshiped. He will not respect the one women long for. He will not have respect for any god. Instead, he will put himself above all of them. 38 In place of them, he will worship a god of war. He will honor a god his people have not had anything to do with before. He will give gold and silver to that god. He will bring jewels and expensive gifts to it.
39 "He will attack the strongest forts. A new god will help him do it. He will greatly honor those who recognize him as their leader. He will make them rulers over many people. And he will give them land as a reward.
40 "A king in the south will go to war against him. It will happen at the time of the end. The king who will honor himself will rush out against him. He will come with chariots and horsemen. He will attack with a lot of ships. He will lead his army into many countries. He will sweep through them like a flood.
41 "He will also march into the beautiful land of Israel. Many countries will fall. But Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be saved from his mighty hand. 42 His power will reach out into many countries. Even Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of all of Egypt's riches. He will take their gold and silver treasures. The people of Libya and Cush will be under his control.
44 "But reports from the east and the north will terrify him. He will burn with anger and march out to destroy many people and wipe them out. 45 He will set up his royal tents. He will put them between the Mediterranean Sea and the beautiful holy mountain of Zion. But his end will come. And no one will help him.
"At that time Michael will appear. He is the great leader of the angels who guards your people. There will be a time of terrible suffering. Things will be worse than at any time since nations began. But at that time of suffering your people will be saved. Their names are written in the Book of Life.
2 "Huge numbers of people who lie dead in their graves will wake up. Some will rise up to life that will never end. Others will rise up to shame that will never end. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the sky. Those who lead many others to do what is right will be like the stars for ever and ever.
4 "But I want you to roll up the scroll, Daniel. Seal it until the time of the end. Many people will go here and there to increase their knowledge."
5 Then I looked up and saw two other angels. One was on this side of the Tigris River. And one was on the other side. 6 The man who was dressed in linen was above the waters of the river. One of the angels said to him, "How long will it be before these amazing things come true?"
7 The man raised both hands toward heaven. I heard him take an oath in the name of the One who lives forever. He answered me, "Three and a half years. Then the power of the holy people will be broken at last. And all of those things will come true."
8 I heard what he said. But I didn't understand it. So I asked, "My master, what will come of all of this?"
9 He answered, "Go on your way, Daniel. The scroll is rolled up. It is sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many people will be made pure in the fire. They will be made spotless. But sinful people will continue to be evil. Not one sinful person will understand. But those who are wise will.
11 "The daily sacrifices will be stopped. And the hated thing that destroys will be set up. After that, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed are those who wait for the 1,335 days and reach the end of them.
13 "Daniel, go on your way until the end. Your body will rest in the grave. Then at the end of the days you will rise from the dead. And you will receive what God has appointed for you."
Dan11 and 12
Molly are you saying it is time to sing the Song.
wake up and smell the coffee :coffee2:
Israel to Obama: Publicly declare that you will use force against Iran by the opening of the UN General Assembly... or else
The Hebrew newspaper Maariv is reporting that Israel has given an ultimatum to President Obama: Either he must be publicly declare by the opening of the United Nations General Assembly (on the eve of Yom Kippur) that he will use force to stop Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, or Israel will attack Iran.
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2012/08/israel-to-obama-publicly-declare-that.html
David Blair
David Blair is the Chief Foreign Correspondent of the Daily Telegraph.
Israel hints that it has already decided to bomb Iran
An extraordinary interview with an anonymous subject has appeared in Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper. In over 3,200 words of prose, the man answering the questions is referred to only as "the decision-maker". But the piece is filled with hints about his identity, to the point where anyone with the slightest grasp of Israeli politics can work out that the anonymous interviewee must be Ehud Barak, the defence minister. (To take one example, the "decision-maker" is interviewed in a room that boasts a "black grand piano". Barak is a concert pianist – there cannot be many others in the Israeli hierarchy).
The significance of the interview is that the "decision-maker" says quite plainly that Israel cannot rely on America to take whatever action is necessary to prevent Iran from achieving nuclear weapons capability. And Israel's own window for launching a preventive strike is closing more rapidly than Washington's.
"As the Iranians continue to fortify their nuclear sites and disperse them and accumulate uranium, the moment is approaching when Israel will not be able to do anything. For the Americans, the Iranians are not yet approaching the immunity zone − because the Americans have much larger bombers and bombs, and the ability to repeat the operation a whole number of times. But for us, Iran could soon enter the immunity zone."
Then the "decision-maker" reaches the crux of his argument: "And when that happens, it means putting a matter that is vital to our survival in the hands of the United States. Israel cannot allow this to happen. It cannot place the responsibility for its security and future in the hands of even its best and most loyal friend."
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidblair/100176498/israel-hints-that-it-has-already-decided-to-bomb-iran/
This should put an end to the discussion. The Jews are written in the book of life. Who knew the book of life was mentioned in Daniel?
Quote"At that time Michael will appear. He is the great leader of the angels who guards your people. There will be a time of terrible suffering. Things will be worse than at any time since nations began. But at that time of suffering your people will be saved. Their names are written in the Book of Life. Dan 12
ALL MANKIND RAISED UP IN CHRIST HAVE THEIR NAMES WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE. IT IS A NEW NAME WRITTEN ON A WHITE STONE
THERE IS NOTHING WRITTEN AGAAINST THEM...THEY ARE ALIVE IN cHRIST AND SPOTLESS.
THE DEAD ARE JUDGED ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAVE DONE OUT OF THE BOOKS[SIN CONDEMNED IN ALL FLESH]
THEIRNEW NAMES ARE 'HIDDEN' IN CHRIST..THE BOOK OF LIFE[FATHER HAS GRANTED ME TO HAVE LIFE IN MYSELF]A FREE GIFT
DEATH HAS TO GIVE UP ALL THAT IT CLAIMED..FOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH..
IT BURNS LIKE A BLAZING FIRE[[FIRST COLLE3CT THE WEEDS AND TIE THEM INTO BUNDLES TO BE BURNED] THE WEEDS ARE THE SONS OF THE
EVIL ONE
THE ARABS AS PART OF ALL ARE DUE TO RECEIVE THE FREE GIFT ALSO..JUST LIKE ALL OF US WHO RECEIVE IT UNDESERVABLY
ISREAL IS MY FIRSTBORN SON[ALL RAISED IN CHRIST ARE ISREAL] THE KINGDOM OF THE LOVE OF THE SON
AM I SURPRISED THAT AT THIS VERY TIME..WHEN THE REVELATION OF WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE FOR ALL MEN....
THAT SATAN WOULD BE INCITING THEM ALL TO SLAUGHTER ONE ANOTHER? NO........FOR THE SCRIPTURES BEAR WITTNESS
THAT ALL KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD THAT SATAN PARCELED OUT WILL FALL.......
I AM NOT ANTI-JEWISH, NOR ANTI-GREEK ..I AM PRO-CHRIST AND HIS KINGDOM
THE SAINTS WERE OVERCOME..WHEN THERE IS A FINISHING OF THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE..THEN THE COURT SITS...
AND WHAT LIKE A SON OF MAN COMES..AND THE KINGDOM IS GIVEN UNTO THE SAINTS[FREE GIFT UNDESERVEDLY]
JESUS TOLD HIS DISCIPLES TO NOT REJOICE BECAUSE THE DEMONS ARE SUBJECT TO THEM..BUT TO REJOICE BECAUSE
THEIR NAMES WERE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN[BOOK OF LIFE]
COLOSSIANS 3 HERE THIS IS NO GREEK OR JEW CIRCUMCIZED OR UNCIRCUMCIZED BARBARIAN SYCTHIAN SLAVE OR FREE
BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL
LET THE PEACE OF CHRIST RULE IN YOUR HEARTS SINCE AS MEMBERS OF ONE BODY YOU WERE CALLED TO PEACE
SURELY NOW IS A TIME TO LOOK UP
Quote from: Molly on September 20, 2012, 07:55:24 PM
This should put an end to the discussion. The Jews are written in the book of life. Who knew the book of life was mentioned in Daniel?
Quote"At that time Michael will appear. He is the great leader of the angels who guards your people. There will be a time of terrible suffering. Things will be worse than at any time since nations began. But at that time of suffering your people will be saved. Their names are written in the Book of Life. Dan 12
That's the New International Reader's Version, where precision seems to have been abandoned for readability. Other translations give a rather different view; see below for a list.
In Daniel, "thy people" refers to the saints, and one must remember that Paul said, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." [Rom. 9:6]
And, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." [Rom. 2:28-29]
Those who are in Christ, are written in the book of life, whether Jew or Gentile. But not those who deny Jesus is the Christ, whatever their ethnic heritage. Every ethnic Jew or ethnic Israelite who denies Jesus is the Christ is cut off from Israel, and from the promises; they are branches broken off from their tree. They are those of whom Peter said, "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." [Acts 3:23]
OTOH, those who believe in Christ are the true circumcision. [Phil. 3:3]
Doug
NIV (©1984)
"But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered."
ESV (©2001)
"But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book."
NASB (©1995)
"and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."
KJV
"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
"and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."
American King James Version
"and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."
American Standard Version
"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."
Douay-Rheims Bible
"And at that time shall thy people be saved, every one that shall be found written in the book."
Darby Bible Translation
"And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that is found written in the book."
English Revised Version
"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."
Webster's Bible Translation
"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."
World English Bible
"and at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the book."
Young's Literal Translation
"and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book."
Quote from: Molly on September 20, 2012, 07:31:47 PM
wake up and smell the coffee :coffee2:
Israel to Obama: Publicly declare that you will use force against Iran by the opening of the UN General Assembly... or else
Israel :high5: Obama
Remember it's election time. The political machine of deceit and propaganda is put in high gear.
Election day the day the flesh can imagine four years of good and bad in 24hrs
When the Lord gives you rest from your pain, torment,
and the hard labor you were forced to do,
4 you will sing this song of contempt about the king of Babylon and say:
How the oppressor has quieted down,
and how the raging[a] has become quiet!
5 The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers.
6 It struck the peoples in anger
with unceasing blows.
It subdued the nations in rage
with relentless persecution.
7 All the earth is calm and at rest;
people shout with a ringing cry.
8 Even the cypresses and the cedars of Lebanon
rejoice over you:
"Since you have been laid low,
no woodcutter has come against us."
9 Sheol below is eager to greet your coming.
He stirs up the spirits of the departed for you—
all the rulers of the earth.
He makes all the kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
10 They all respond to you, saying:
"You too have become as weak as we are;
you have become like us!
11 Your splendor has been brought down to Sheol,
along with the music of your harps.
Maggots are spread out under you,
and worms cover you."
12 Shining morning star,[c]
how you have fallen from the heavens!
You destroyer of nations,
you have been cut down to the ground.
13 You said to yourself:
"I will ascend to the heavens;
I will set up my throne
above the stars of God.
I will sit on the mount of the gods' assembly,
in the remotest parts of the North.[d]
14 I will ascend above the highest clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you will be brought down to Sheol
into the deepest regions of the Pit.
16 Those who see you will stare at you;
they will look closely at you:
"Is this the man who caused the earth to tremble,
who shook the kingdoms,
17 who turned the world into a wilderness,
who destroyed its cities
and would not release the prisoners to return home?"
18 All the kings of the nations
lie in splendor, each in his own tomb.
19 But you are thrown out without a grave,
like a worthless branch,
covered by those slain with the sword
and dumped into a rocky pit like a trampled corpse.
20 You will not join them in burial,
because you destroyed your land
and slaughtered your own people.
The offspring of evildoers
will never be remembered.
21 Prepare a place of slaughter for his sons,
because of the iniquity of their fathers.
They will never rise up to possess a land
or fill the surface of the earth with cities.
Quote from: DougThat's the New International Reader's Version,
That's what I call the Dick and Jane Bible. It cuts to the chase. If we look at the Hebrew we see:
and at that time, thy people shall be delivered, kol matsa kathab sepher
"they all are found written in the book"
H3605
כּול כּלo
kôl kôl
kole, kole
From H3634; properly
the whole; hence all, any or every (in the singular only, but often in a plural sense): - (in) all (manner, [ye]), altogether, any (manner), enough, every (one, place, thing), howsoever, as many as, [no-] thing, ought, whatsoever, (the) whole, whoso (-ever).
H4672
מצא
mâtsâ'
maw-tsaw'
A primitive root; properly to come forth to, that is,
appear or exist; transitively
to attain, that is,
find or acquire; figuratively to occur, meet or be present: - + be able, befall, being, catch, X certainly (cause to) come (on, to, to hand), deliver, be enough (cause to) find (-ing, occasion, out), get (hold upon), X have (here), be here, hit, be left, light (up-) on, meet (with), X occasion serve, (be) present, ready, speed, suffice, take hold on.
H3789
כּתב
kâthab
kaw-thab'
A primitive root; to grave; by implication
to write (describe, inscribe, prescribe, subscribe): - describe, record, prescribe, subscribe, write (-ing, -ten).
H5612
ספרה ספר
sêpher siphrâh
say'-fer, sif-raw'
From H5608; properly writing (the art or a document); by implication
a book: - bill, book, evidence, X learn [-ed] (-ing), letter,
register, scroll.Notice, though, that some arise to everlasting shame.
Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2012, 01:02:56 AM
Quote from: DougThat's the New International Reader's Version,
That's what I call the Dick and Jane Bible. It cuts to the chase. If we look at the Hebrew we see:
and at that time, thy people shall be delivered,
kol matsa kathab sepher
"they all are found written in the book"
H3605
כּול כּלo
kôl kôl
kole, kole
From H3634; properly the whole; hence all, any or every (in the singular only, but often in a plural sense): - (in) all (manner, [ye]), altogether, any (manner), enough, every (one, place, thing), howsoever, as many as, [no-] thing, ought, whatsoever, (the) whole, whoso (-ever).
H4672
מצא
mâtsâ'
maw-tsaw'
A primitive root; properly to come forth to, that is, appear or exist; transitively to attain, that is, find or acquire; figuratively to occur, meet or be present: - + be able, befall, being, catch, X certainly (cause to) come (on, to, to hand), deliver, be enough (cause to) find (-ing, occasion, out), get (hold upon), X have (here), be here, hit, be left, light (up-) on, meet (with), X occasion serve, (be) present, ready, speed, suffice, take hold on.
H3789
כּתב
kâthab
kaw-thab'
A primitive root; to grave; by implication to write (describe, inscribe, prescribe, subscribe): - describe, record, prescribe, subscribe, write (-ing, -ten).
H5612
ספרה ספר
sêpher siphrâh
say'-fer, sif-raw'
From H5608; properly writing (the art or a document); by implication a book: - bill, book, evidence, X learn [-ed] (-ing), letter, register, scroll.
Notice, though, that some arise to everlasting shame.
I think you're getting at something very interesting Molly. Good find on the Hebrew. Interesting most translations (all besides the one you quote?) veer off the literal Hebrew.. :Chinscratch:
OTOH, I'd guess "everlasting shame" would be "of the age or olam", etc.? Which would leave the door open to restoration?
Yes. I'm not even sure what that means [everlasting shame].
We all stand around and say,
:mock: You missed the Messiah!
They all seem to be in the first resurrection, too.
It would be interesting to see how the Christian Bible treats it.
Speaking of the beast in Revelation 13, John wrote:
Revelation 13:7-8
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
In John's time this beast would probably have been identified with the Roman empire. The province of Judaea was part of it. And in the early days of the church the Jews persecuted those who believed Jesus was the Christ. It seems quite a stretch to me, to say any of those who rejected the gospel had their names in the book of life.
John wrote:
Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
All whose names are not in the book of life, wonder at the beast, and worship him. It seems to me that the beast represents human society, government, philosophy, economic systems, religions, etc., in contrast to Christ's kingdom. Maybe John said that it "is not" because in John's lifetime, one of the seven heads of the beast suffered a deadly wound, when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. The beast "was," but when the Apocalypse was written, that particular head of the beast no longer existed. Today it does; the deadly wound inflicted in 70 AD was healed in 1948.
IMO, to say anyone who was Jewish by birth was in the book of life degrades the significance of the book of life, which Paul refers to, for example in Philippians 4:3; "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life."
The prophets and apostles and those who laboured for the gospel are in the book of life. [Eph. 2:20] Those who are of the faith of Abraham are in the book of life; "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." [Gal. 3:7-9]
On the other hand, those who only Jews after the flesh, who do not have faith in Christ, are identified with Hagar the "bondwoman" and her son.
Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Jesus gave a description of the status of unbelieving Jews, when he sent out his disciples. He said they would be in the judgment along with the people of Sodom, and Tyre and Sidon.
Luke 10
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hades.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Doug
,
Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2012, 01:22:01 AM
Yes. I'm not even sure what that means [everlasting shame].
We all stand around and say,
:mock: You missed the Messiah!
They all seem to be in the first resurrection, too.
It would be interesting to see how the Christian Bible treats it.
:)
Yeah, no TCB OT yet - "work in progress", per their response.
Young may have "missed" the first part, but likely got this one right, as he translates it quite consistently throughout - i.e., "abhorrence
age-during" - which I would interpret as shame/disgrace for an age/time period. :2c:
Quote from: DougIn John's time this beast would probably have been identified with the Roman empire. The province of Judaea was part of it. And in the early days of the church the Jews persecuted those who believed Jesus was the Christ. It seems quite a stretch to me, to say any of those who rejected the gospel had their names in the book of life
Remember, the beast kingdom at the end of the age will be number 8. Number 8 is a revived number 7. Since rome was number 6, it cannot be number 7 or number 8.
Which is the reason some say the final beast kingdom will be the revived Ottoman Empire [otherwise known as the muslim Caliphate].
Also, don't forget, God divorced the house of Israel, but he never divorced the house of Judah. Therefore, the house of Judah is not the bride of Christ, she is already married to God. It is God himself who blinded her until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. At the end of the age he will hold both houses, two sticks, all 12 tribes, in one hand.
It is all there in Romans 11.
The Gentiles are "wild olive branches" according to Paul, not bloodstock of the ten tribes. The Gentiles who are "grafted in" are partakers of the same root as the 12 tribes, all in one olive tree. They can be cut off as well, removed from their grafting so to speak, for "unbelief". Does this mean because they "intellectually no longer believe Jesus is Messiah?" Or (more likely) does it mean they are PRACTICING THEIR FAITH IN CHRIST AS THE JEWS PRACTICED THEIR FAITH IN YHWH, seeking to establish their own righteousness, hypocrites, teaching godliness as a means of gain.
In Christ there is and will be no Jew or Gentile or Scythian or male or female. When God is all in all, all demarcations(rule power and authority) will have been abolished(1 Cor 15). The need for it will have been removed, because all will be in the spirit, all will be in the river of love.
The stages of the reconciliation of all, in the "administration of the completion of time" and the "gathering together of all things in Christ" have been(IMO), to this point
Abraham(patriarchs), Israel(priestly nation), the body of Christ(inclusive of all who have submitted to the Lordship of Christ, Jew and Gentile- the One New Man). In the ages to come the whole creation will be grafted in, set free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God. All God's children will be ONE, FREE, IN LOVE :banana: Nyah nah ne nyah nah NO MORE US AND THEM HAHAHAHAHAHAH!
QuoteThe Gentiles are "wild olive branches" according to Paul, not bloodstock of the ten tribes.
Where does Paul say "not the bloodstock' of the ten tribes?
He calls them both olive trees, the only difference is one is cultivated, the other is not.
We know what that means from the point of view of a farmer. But, no farmer would mistake a wild olive tree for a cherry tree.
Cultivated or not, they are still both 'olive trees.'
16 The Lord called thy name, A thriving olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.Jer 11
This is your name:
ra‛ănân zayith
Romans 11:16 - If the Root is Holy So Are The Branches
I am very worried for Israel.
Be worried for the world.
yeah, that, too.
Israel has its problems so too the children around her.
The new city of Jerusalem has its problems too.
It has 00.00 % unemployment there are no where near
enough workers available.
The city is hiring now.
The city is having a huge celebration bigger than any Olympics or worlds fair.
They are now hiring.
Dancers.
Singers.
Musicians.
Designers.
Artist.
Also a very vast array of hosts and Hostesses.
No experience is required.
To apply you just say out loud .
"Holy Spirit of God I would like to work for the new city of Jerusalem."
He will start training you immediately after he sends you
confirmation that you have been hired.
You will have first hand behind the scene access ,
with your back stage pass.
Transportation, uniforms, and all other materials supplied by the city.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 21, 2012, 07:25:20 PM
Israel has its problems so too the children around her.
The new city of Jerusalem has its problems too.
It has 00.00 % unemployment there are no where near
enough workers available.
The city is hiring now.
The city is having a huge celebration bigger than any Olympics or worlds fair.
They are now hiring.
Dancers.
Singers.
Musicians.
Designers.
Artist.
Also a very vast array of hosts and Hostesses.
No experience is required.
To apply you just say out loud .
"Holy Spirit of God I would like to work for the new city of Jerusalem."
He will start training you immediately after he sends you
confirmation that you have been hired.
You will have first hand behind the scene access ,
with your back stage pass.
Transportation, uniforms, and all other materials supplied by the city.
:banana: :violin: :skittles: :trampoline:
Is this going to be a showdown between the executive and legislative branches?
:umnick:
The US Senate on Saturday passed by a 90-1 vote a non-binding resolution insisting that the United States prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons and ruling out any strategy aimed at dealing with a nuclear-armed Iran.
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=285853
It doesn't matter whether you are rooting for the executive branch
or you root for the legislative branch.
They both belong to the same tree rooted in the
non organic soul of America full of toxic pesticides.
These pesticides kill the nutrients of truth,
before they reach any of the branches.
The information these branches receive are lies.
The information they give out are lies.
When lying becomes the main dialect of a nation.
A person armed with the truth becomes the strongest in the land.
The lie is that God is concerned about the middle East.
The truth is that Jesus sacrificed equally for every one.
Blessed is he that readeth, and he that heareth the words of this prophecy, and keepeth those things that be written in it; for the time is nigh.
"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
A chilling video on voter fraud. :mshock:
It seems the media is particularly good at prophecy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OynCgwmD-HM
In American political jargon, an October surprise is a news event with the potential to influence the outcome of an election, particularly one for the U.S. presidency. The reference to the month of October is because the date for national elections (as well as many state and local elections) occurs between November 2 and 8, and therefore events that take place in late October have greater potential to influence the decisions of prospective voters.
The term came into use shortly after the 1972 presidential election between Republican incumbent Richard Nixon and Democrat George McGovern, when the United States was in the fourth year of negotiations to end the very long and domestically divisive Vietnam War. Twelve days before the election day of November 7, on October 26, 1972, the United States' chief negotiator, the presidential National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger, appeared at a press conference held at the White House and announced, "We believe that peace is at hand".[1] Nixon, despite having vowed to end the unpopular war during his presidential election campaign four years earlier, had failed to either cease hostilities or gradually bring about an end to the war. Nixon was nevertheless already widely considered to be assured of an easy reelection victory against McGovern, but Kissinger's "peace is at hand" declaration may have increased Nixon's already high standing with the electorate. In the event, Nixon outpolled McGovern in every state except Massachusetts and achieved a 20 point lead in the nationwide popular vote. The fighting ended in 1973, but soldiers remained in Vietnam until 1975.
Since that election, the term "October surprise" has been used preemptively during campaign season by partisans of one side to discredit late-campaign news by the other side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise
Sometimes the October surprise comes in September.
Quote from: Molly on September 23, 2012, 09:52:21 AM
A chilling video on voter fraud. :mshock:
It seems the media is particularly good at prophecy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OynCgwmD-HM
This video is a joke.
I was laughing so much it was hard to stay focused.
They should use this video as a,(How not to start a conspiracy theory.)
Molly you really can't be series about this being chilling.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 23, 2012, 08:06:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 23, 2012, 09:52:21 AM
A chilling video on voter fraud. :mshock:
It seems the media is particularly good at prophecy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OynCgwmD-HM
This video is a joke.
I was laughing so much it was hard to stay focused.
They should use this video as a,(How not to start a conspiracy theory.)
Molly you really can't be series about this being chilling.
Why were you laughing? Do you think a vote can be called from a sampling of 1/3 of 1 percent [exit polls] plus 1 percent of the actual vote? How would that work?
The guy says that the media is rigging the vote.
That the media knows well before the election who has won
because they (the media) picks the winner before hand.
First to start a good conspiracy theory you need and evil THEM.
His evil them is the media.
He asks us to believe that they, the media have made a plan.
To have there chosen ones to rule the country. They rig the elections
so they can appoint whom ever they desire.
The leader of the media must be a great man(maybe the anti Christ)
All the other members of the media (and there are hundreds of thousands of members)
Secretly get told by this leader who he wants elected .
The obedient members who now have no loyalty to family church or country.
Go about there daily lives trying to deceive the American people.
The members of the media are so loyal that they do not let any one know about there secret agenda. So far no one in the media has reported about these meetings.
Of coarse the media won't report it they are the media.
As far the rest of the video goes this guy thinks that statistical analyses is like some kind of voodoo.
Molly watch Money Ball the movie with Brad Pitt.
A lot of companies headed by a lot of smart people pay a lot of money for
information in regard to product sampling.
I think the even have a course at University about statistics and poleing.
While I exist here as an Adamic creature pressing toward incorruptible immortality I cannot foresee anything except a revelation from God that will convince me the U.S. election process reliably reflects the vote cast by the citizens here. We have electronic machines with NO paper trail to check out how we voted. A microsecond online and it is completely compromised without any means of verifying. If you want something ominous to think about it's "We'll deliver the vote!" Diebold's slogan when we went electronic.
As I see it, The whole premise is flawed anyway because IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO GETS ELECTED. Both parties are completely compromised and corrupted by corporate money and the control of the oligarch's behind the scenes. We sit beneath the tree of knowledge of good and evil and my good is your evil if I am a Republican and your good is my evil if I am a Democrat. The two have NO DESIRE TO INSTILL JUSTICE AND EQUITY IN AMERICA - they are just fighting over who will control the machine. The corporations HEDGE THEIR BETS BY CONTRIBUTING TO BOTH SIDES. The mega-banks and their officers and share holders tell both the POLITICIANS AND THE BUREAUCRATS what to do. The media is the propaganda arm of the system....just like Pravda used t be in the Soviet Union. To get anywhere near the truth you have to watch your news from somewhere else, like the BBC or some of the small independent news sources in the US. If you read the paper or watch network news and think you are getting anything like the real truth you are just another lemming being led off the cliff.
No matter who wins, healthcare will continue to spiral out of control, wages will continue to fall, jobs will continue to flow overseas, the banks will continue to manipulate the money markets, etc, etc.
IMO, It's ridiculous to think that such a conspiracy is even necessary. The truth is more likely that it is just the networks are COMPETING FOR THE EARLIEST PROJECTION and rolling the dice.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 24, 2012, 09:17:01 AM
As I see it, The whole premise is flawed anyway because IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO GETS ELECTED. Both parties are completely compromised and corrupted by corporate money and the control of the oligarch's behind the scenes.
:thumbsup:
And likely the same ones.
the kids have discovered that the corruption takes place at the beginning of the process, at the level of the primaries. and, that if you take those jobs that no one wants, county chairman, state chairman, the person who counts the votes, the person who receives the counted votes and certifies them, all the way up to the top, THOSE are the jobs that matter, because those are the jobs that pick one of two candidates. They've finally figured it out, and things might begin to change if they stick with it. americans have to take back their country, one baby step at a time.
Obama Refers to Israel Concern Over Iran as 'Noise'
In an interview to air tonight on CBS's 60 Minutes, President Barack Obama will refer to Israel's concern over Iran's march toward a nuclear program as "noise."
"When it comes to our national security decisions -- any pressure that I feel is simply to do what's right for the American people. And I am going to block out -- any noise that's out there," Obama says,
UPDATE: Here's the video and transcript
UPDATE III: Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad used the same word to describe Israel in an interview with the Washington Post, as Andrea Saul notes:
AHMADINEJAD: "I have spoken about this topic at length, previously. We generally speaking do not take very seriously the issue of the Zionists and the possible dangers emanating from them. Of course they would love to find a way for their own salvation by making a lot of noise and to raise stakes in order to save themselves. But I do not believe they will succeed. Iran is also a very well recognized country and her defensive powers are very clear."
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-refers-israel-concern-over-iran-noise_652967.html
End of Days: Who knows? Do you understand the Muslim Caliphate and return of the 12th Imam?
The 12th Imam is the Mahdi, the muslim Messiah, and he fits the definition of the man in Daniel 11 whom we know as the Antichrist.
The muslims believe that the rider of the white horse in Rev 6 is their Mahdi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mqk4MxghIQ
God, don't keep silent.
God, don't keep quiet. Don't be still.
2 See how your enemies are getting ready for action.
See how they are rising up against you.
3 They make clever plans against your people.
They make evil plans against those you love.
4 "Come," they say. "Let's destroy that whole nation.
Then the name of Israel won't be remembered anymore."
5 All of them agree on the evil plans they have made.
They join forces against you.
6 Their forces include the people of Edom,
Ishmael, Moab and Hagar.
7 They also include the people of Byblos, Ammon, Amalek,
Philistia and Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to give strength to the people of Moab and Ammon.
--Psa 83
I watched as the Lamb broke open the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice that sounded like thunder, "Come!" 2 I looked, and there in front of me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow in his hands. He was given a crown. He rode out like a hero on his way to victory.
3 The Lamb broke open the second seal. Then I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 Another horse came out. It was flaming red. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. He was given a large sword.
5 The Lamb broke open the third seal. Then I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there in front of me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Next, I heard what sounded like a voice coming from among the four living creatures. It said, "A quart of wheat for a day's pay. And three quarts of barley for a day's pay. But don't spoil the olive oil and the wine!"
7 The Lamb broke open the fourth seal. Then I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 I looked, and there in front of me was a pale horse! Its rider's name was Death. Following close behind him was Hell. They were given power over a fourth of the earth. They were given power to kill people with the sword, hunger, and sickness. They could also use the earth's wild animals to kill.
--Rev 6
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 24, 2012, 09:29:42 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on September 24, 2012, 09:17:01 AM
As I see it, The whole premise is flawed anyway because IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO GETS ELECTED. Both parties are completely compromised and corrupted by corporate money and the control of the oligarch's behind the scenes.
:thumbsup:
And likely the same ones.
I agree.
To think that if we have a paper trail from the voter to the candidate.
That if we had this trail, there would be no money influencing the out come.
A person would have to be ignorant about American elections and it's history.
As an out side observer I would say that the more the media or any other source of information portrays the election whether local or national as false.
Allows those with a pharisaic spirit wash their hands before they throw stones.
ie;
Bush was not my legitimate president when we declared war in the middle east.
So I can with clean hands throw stones at those who were part of his illegitimate
regime.
Obama Was not my legitimate president when he changed health care.
So I can throw stones with clean hands at those who are part of this illegitimate
regime.
Now we have the preemptive strike who ever is elected president that I did not vote for
is illegitimate, and I can start throwing stone with clean hands.
The medias #1 job is to report who threw what stone when.
The ratings are threw the roof for this kind of reporting.
The organized churches of America provide the water
for all those who wash before and after they throw stones.
The Spirit of God was told to go away with his water of Life.
They wanted the Pharisee's water of washings.
All of you Americans who wash in the water of religious out rage.
Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone
"Everyone who drinks this water will get thirsty again. 14 But no one who drinks the water I give will ever be thirsty again. The water I give is like a flowing fountain that gives eternal life."
May God bless America.
Quote from: Sheilapresumptousness is the same as witch CRAFT[babylon's spell] which sits atop the beastly kingdoms/fornicate with kings of the earth. O'presumptous one
I sit a queen[heavenly rule]...by 'peace' shall destroy many=compromise in lying covenant? three unclean inspired expressions= three 'kings"
from the east[christian muslims and jews who do not obey Christ..the KING OF KINGS
the abomination that causes desolation is the refusal of the annointed one....they will not 'SEE" HIM again until they say....
Blessed is He who comes in the NAME OF THE LORD...same for professing christians that are christians in name only..and seed of Abraham
Ishmael...that claim Jesus Christ as prophet of Isreal.....that devour one another in their carnality
right now there are three unclean inspired expressions in Jerusalem...devouring one another..what an abomination leading to desolation....
until the GLORY RETURNS.... it's been nothing but an abomination and desolation[struggle] til the name/nature change....
struggle=until you BLESS ME
Sheila, not that I disagree with you, but I think Daniel's phrase is referring to something very specific--a vile army that worships idols that will invade Jerusalem.
We will see this played out in our time because we are seeing it played out before our very eyes.
He has made Jerusalem the geographical center of the earth. This is the city he loves.
It is now populated by the people he loves, a people who have forgotten him.
Bible prophecy is very specific for those who wish to read it literally.
When he separates the sheep nations from the goat nations it will be based on how they treated his people.
THIS IS TALKING ABOUT NATIONS
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
--Mat 25
What does the Antichrist do? He destroys many by peace. He destroys the mighty and the holy people.
How does that happen? Isn't peace a good thing? How is he destroying by peace?
He speaks dark sentences. He is a liar. He stands up against the Prince of peace.
What is this talking about. Someone preaching peace in order to destroy God's people?
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
--Dan 8
their false images[corrupt] of God is their idols..and they have invaded her...the fight over the quarters in her..have you not seen how they market and sell
their relics and wares in her?. when Isreal refused Christ..they have not the Father..when Muslims refuse Christ..they have not the Father..
when christendom refuses teachings of Christ for doctrines of men..they have not the Christ nor the Father.......
never-the-less there shall be no more gloom..for unto us a son is given.....and in the last days I shall pour out my spirit on ALL FLESH.
that vile army is satan going forth and misleading all of them into killing one another...it is an army of lawless unclean demons[see satan out of the abyss]
that vile army of the kingdom of darkness misleads christians[Jude/falling away] Muslims and Jews]
He loves the city..but He doesnt love the abominations in it..........it is to be a HOUSE OF PRAYER...but you have made it a den of robbers............
Glory To GOD IN THE HIGHEST AND ON EARTH PEACE TO MEN ON WHOM HIS FAVOUR RESTS
join our religion or we'll kill you you infidel.....compromise or war...........
if satan casts out satan then his house shall fall....do not think I came to bring peace,but divison...that is How Christ is doing it
and by peace shall destroy many= 'IF" WE LET hIM GO ON LIKE THIS,EVERYONE WILL BELEIVE IN HIM, AND THEN THE ROMANS WILL COME
AND TAKE AWAY BOTH OUR PLACE AND OUR NATION. THEN ONE OF THEM NAMED CAIPHAS WHO WAS HIGH PREIST THAT YEAR
SPOKE UP, YOU KNOW NOTHING AT ALL YOU DO NOT REALIZE IT IS BETTER FOR YOU THAT ONE MAN DIE FOR THE PEOPLE
THAN THAT THE WHOLE NATION PERISH
HE DID NOT SAY THAT ON HIS OWN BUT AS HIGH PREIST THAT YEAR HE PROPHESIED THAT JESUS WOULD DIE FOR THE JEWISH NATION
AND NOT ONLY FOR THAT NATION BUT FOR ALSO THE SCATTERED CHILDREN OF GOD TO BRING THEM TOGATHER AND MAKE THEM ONE.
PUT YOUR SWORD BACK IN IT'S PLACE FOR ALL WHO DRAW THE SWORD WILL DIE BY THE SWORD...
THINK YE NOT I CAN CALL ON THE FATHER AND HE NOT AT ONCE SEND TWELVE LEGION OF ANGELS?
Quote from: Sheilawhen Isreal refused Christ..they have not the Father..when Muslims refuse Christ..they have not the Father..
There is a difference Sheila. The muslims can decide to join the bride of Christ but God never divorced the house of Judah. That's why the high priest prophesies that one man will die for the nation.
Paul thinks like a lawyer, which is why he is often so hard to read. He is talking about a contract, a covenant, an everlasting covenant that will not be broken by God no matter what his people do. He talks about the beneficiaries of that covenant, about an inheritance, about the conditions present that will bring this to fulfillment.
This is an irrevocable document. That is why he says the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.
If my earthly father writes me into his will and makes it an irrevocable trust, then there is nothing I can do to lose it. And, once signed, there is nothing he can do to change it. I can be good, bad, or a total maniac and I will still inherit under the conditions of the trust.
A LIVING WIDOWHOOD IS STILL A DESOLATE CONDITION
...IT IS HE WHO MUST 'CALL HER BACK"...A WIFE IS KEPT SAFE THROUGH CHILD-BEARING 'PROVIDED SHE REMAINS A WORKER AT HOME"
Yes, it is. They are not widows, although they live like it. They are not widows because HE LIVES. It is they who will call him back. That is when he will return, when the Jews are so broken in their own power that they call on him to return.
They are our brothers in Christ. They just don't know it, yet. But we know it. And, it's up to us to treat them as brothers. This is not coming from me, Sheila. He has turned my heart around 180 degrees about this.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me again, until ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
--Mat 23
i SEE WHAT YOUR'E SAYING NOW, MOLLY.....HAVING EXPIERECED THAT WANDERING IN MY SEEKING HIM..AND CALLING OUT TO HIM.
BUT I STILL DON'T BELEIVE THAT DISOBEYING JESUS COMMANDS[WARRING WITH ARM OF FLESH] WILL IN ANY WAY BE OF BENEFIT
TO THEM OR US.
You see things ages and ages into the future, Sheila.
I am just trying to see to the end of the age [or even the next day, if truth be told].
Prosor storms out of Ahmadinejad speech at UN meeting
Published: 09.24.12, 17:33
Israeli Ambassador Ron Prosor has stormed out of a high-level meeting on the rule of law at the United Nations during Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's speech.
"A leader of a lawbreaking nation that repeatedly violates the basic principles of the rule of law does not have a place in this hall," Prosor said on his way out. "It's an absolute disgrace that a person like him is allowed to express himself on such an important issue. To allow Ahmadinejad to speak at the UN about the rule of law is like appointing a pyromaniac to be a fire chief."
Ahmadinejad said Iran has been around for thousands of years, but Israel has existed for only 60 or 70 years. He said that for a certain "historical phase" Israel represents a disturbance for Iran and "they are then eliminated."
"They (Israel) have no roots there in history. They do not even enter the equation for Iran."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4285579,00.html
Sheila, not that I disagree with you, but I think Daniel's phrase is referring to something very specific--a vile army that worships idols that will invade Jerusalem.
We will see this played out in our time because we are seeing it played out before our very eyes.
It happens every time some one predicts and embarrasses them selves
when their prediction doesn't' come true.
They all say see it is already starting to happen and then they give some vague
event as that which they were predicting.
Then you roll your eyes as someone else steps up to embarass them selves
and predicts a very specific event will happen in their live time.
Molly don't embarrass your self by saying these things
will happen during your life time.
As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]
And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
Quote from: DajoMolly don't embarrass your self by saying these things
will happen during your life time.
As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]
Not to worry, Dajo. You've just pointed out how that is impossible.
PM heads to UN from region in turmoil, with a US president 'failing to put Israel at ease'
A top Israeli official explained to The Times of Israel that Netanyahu feels it is he, not Obama, who is under pressure.
"The prime minister looks around him and sees what's on his plate. Lebanon and Syria, the situation in Sinai and Egypt. Jordan looks stable, but it's not at all. Iran and Gaza and Hezbollah. And he says to the Americans, 'the greatest danger by far is Iran. Will you take care of Iran?'"
That Israeli sense that the region is becoming more dangerous with each passing day is driving the prime minister's actions, the official, who asked to remain anonymous, said last week.
And while Israelis peer fearfully around at a region in turmoil, Obama is failing to put them at ease, the official added.
"President Clinton made us feel like he had our back [at Camp David]. When we made concessions that were greater than anything an Israeli government had ever offered, we felt he'd be there if things went bad. Would he have been there? I don't know. But it felt that way, and it put us in a different frame of mind. President Obama doesn't give us the same sense that he'd be there."
This official does not believe Obama is uniquely unfriendly toward Israel, noting, "He just doesn't seem to make friends. Not with anyone. He isn't friendly with David Cameron either."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-heads-to-the-un-from-a-region-in-turmoil-with-a-us-president-failing-to-put-israel-at-ease/
Lebanon, Syria, Sinai, Jordan, Egypt, and Gaza---when do we declare Jerusalem emcompassed by armies?
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Luke 21:20
Sid Roth and Wallid Shoebat discuss end time prophecy. "It's all about the middle east."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8b9QFsgHfo
How it ends.
Just like reading a newspaper, says Wallid.
:umnick:
The Antichrist will attack [by flatteries and deceit] the strongest country.
He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price. Dan 11:39
God will raise up seven shepherds and eight principal men to fight him and he will be expelled.
5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
--Micah 5
God rises up the mightiest nations of the world [USA + allies] to fight the Antichrist and he is defeated and thrown into the pit.
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. Eze 28
The ships of Chittim ["the West"] are already in the Persian Gulf
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: Dan 11:39
:umnick:
Iran test-fires anti-warship missiles near the Strait of Hormuz
While U.S.-led joint naval exercises continue in the Persian Gulf, Iran unveils missile capable of sinking targets as large as warships in 50 seconds, according to Iranian general.
By The Associated Press | Sep.25, 2012 | 11:54 AM | 2
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/iran-test-fires-anti-warship-missiles-near-the-strait-of-hormuz-1.466804
The Gospel the TRUE Gospel must be preached.
Through out all the lands East and west and then the ends come.
Molly how many Muslims do you know whom have
had a gospel of inclusion preached to them.
How many people have had the option to choose Jesus with out the threat
of being eternally tormented if they don't?
So many American Christians have their head up their
Apocalyptic Short Sightedness
That they are willing to let the rest of the world
go through a man made hell of war nuclear fire storms.
Molly time is of the essence you have been given a gift.
Please help us, who want to share the GOD news.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 25, 2012, 07:28:12 PM
Molly how many Muslims do you know whom have
had a gospel of inclusion preached to them.
Slightly less than "Christians".
(most only know the Gospel of exclusion)
Quote from: DajoThe Gospel the TRUE Gospel must be preached.
Through out all the lands East and west and then the ends come.
Molly how many Muslims do you know whom have
had a gospel of inclusion preached to them.
How many people have had the option to choose Jesus with out the threat
of being eternally tormented if they don't?
Dajo, every muslim country was originally a Christian country. There is a remnant of Christians in each of these countries who somehow survived getting their heads cut off, their tongues cut out, their children murdered, their daughters taken into slavery--Does this sound harsh to you? I have more than a passing acquaintance with the methods of this 'religion/government/political movement/system of law'. Even so, this Christian remnant would happily risk their lives to give the gospel to any muslim that asked, even though they would probably risk jail or their lives by doing so.
The gospel has been preached in every muslim country. Mostly, they don't want to hear it. Do not ask me why. You see, they do not have a Savior in their religion. So torment is not a particular concern that they feel they can do much about. Oh wait, I think they get good points for killing Christians and Jews and praying five times a day.
If by 'gospel of inclusion' we mean "you're loved, Jesus loves you, He will save you, call on Him", then I'm on board. If it's the 'gospel of inclusion' of "I'm OK, you're OK, doesn't matter if you're Muslim or ____", then I hope no one is preaching a gospel of inclusion to them. I hope instead it would be a gospel of repentance and belief on Jesus for true righteousness - His.
Did he really just say that?
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6uZFSj_ueM
The man is a pitiful shame and an embarrassment. IMO, a great spiritual blindness has occurred.
I don't think there's anyone available right now that's a "perfect' answer. But I'd take Mickey Mouse.
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2012, 08:42:46 PM
The gospel has been preached in every muslim country. Mostly, they don't want to hear it. Do not ask me why.
Something to do with demonic activity, the works of darkness, and God's timing. :2c:
Quote from: dajomaco on September 25, 2012, 07:28:12 PM
So many American Christians have their head up their
Apocalyptic Short Sightedness
That they are willing to let the rest of the world
go through a man made hell of war nuclear fire storms.
Molly time is of the essence you have been given a gift.
Please help us, who want to share the GOD news.
daj, I appreciate a lot of what you have to say. IMO, the red letters above and the insinuation of them border on the edge of inappropriateness.
Also, I don't know how many times you've been to the states, or how many thousands of Americans you've personally known, but I see several things from non-Americans. Before I go there, I'll admit we have many problems, there is much blindness, apathy, self-centerdness in our society, and IMO, it's getting worse. However, I believe at least SOME non-Americans assume that everyone in real life is walking around breathing fire and screaming about hell. That's just not true. Do most American Christians believe in it? I'd say certainly. They believe in it because that's what they've been taught and because they think the Bible truly teaches it - and they want to be faithful to the scriptures and to God by being obedient. In my 54 years (next month) of being an American, I've come to see many things wrong with this country, for sure - although most of it is on a governmental level. The people? I've known thousands, tens of thousands. Been in services since I was a year old. I did grow up in an extraordinarily "backwoods" situation - small towns/villages, country people, much ignorance, on an educational and spiritual/Biblical level. There was more talk and preaching of hell and fear there, for sure. Still, it was mostly based on fear and attempts made to "talk people out of going there", with SOME threatening. Later on in my teen and adult life - 35-40 years, I still knew thousands of people who believed in hell, but By FAR that was not their focus. Neither was their focus threatening people with torture or retribution. They preached the love of God, salvation, His ability to keep those who believe in Him safe and secure. Was there enough of the "hell" stuff there to bother me? Sure. God took me out of it. But still, by FAR the majority of these folks were loving, caring people, just doing the best they could with what they had. They loved the Lord, served Him as they knew how, helped the sick, visited the shut-ins. They were already living in the Kingdom through their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior, His blood and mercy applied to their lives - not through a revelation of deeper doctrine such as UR or any other ancillary doctrine. Most of those thousands of people I interacted were of 2 main denominations, so maybe I "chose" groups that weren't all hell-fire and brimstone. I know those folks exist. Unfortunately, many of them are on the internet, which I believe, can give a skewed appearance that "everyone's like that".
As far as letting the rest of the world burn in a nuclear firestorm - from what I see of the American people, there's a real sense of "what in the world can I do about this - it looks destined to happen". I think many, such as Molly for instance, don't want it to happen. I believe Molly prays for God's Kingdom to come, for the time when God's righteousness covers the earth. But IMO, there's a realistic side too. I believe many in the Arab world have come from a lineage of spiritual blindness and rebellion, that dates back thousands of years. The works of darkness are present and deeply ingrained. Although I believe it's true we certainly should share the love of Jesus with them any way we can, I believe a reality is, for the most part, they will not hear, they will reject, and in fact, I believe the satan in them hates the gospel. And only God Himself, in his perfect timing, as HE works out the events on the world stage, will one day turn their hearts to Him in repentance and belief. It will be a miracle on a large scale, leading up to and including when God becomes All in All, when EVERY knee bows and every tongue confesses. IMO, bringing the Muslim countries (and many others) to a saving faith in Jesus the Messiah will be a miraculous move of the Holy Spirit, with God making Himself directly known in a miraculous way.
Though I KNOW there are exceptions, there are crazy people, evil people, mean people shouting slanders and falsehoods, what I see someone like Molly doing is just trying to discern and warn. Although I personally have little idea about how prophecy fits together, when what happened and will happen, and I personally believe in being careful about forecasting etc., because I - I, just don't know, I believe there is a place for a "watchmen at the wall", sounding the call to be aware, eyes open, heads up, redemption draws nigh. I personally am cautious about someone proclaiming things/predictions as absolute certainties.
But someone raising awareness, asking questions, exploring, IMO, is not having one's head, uh, in the sand.
These of course are my opinions, and I've been wrong many time and will likely be again. So a whole row of :2c: can go here.
Blessings, James.
Jabcat, as I was reading your very long post, my mind and heart immediately went to Prov 15:4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life.... v. 30 The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart; and good news nourishes/strengthens the bones." And, of course, thought about the good report given by Joshua and Caleb .... Blessings
Quote from: goodreport on September 25, 2012, 11:50:14 PM
Jabcat, as I was reading your very long post, my mind and heart immediately went to Prov 15:4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life.... v. 30 The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart; and good news nourishes/strengthens the bones." And, of course, thought about the good report given by Joshua and Caleb .... Blessings
"Very long" is right. :flowerred:
Amen. I believe it's true, we should share Good News anywhere He leads us to proclaim it and if He does, then He makes the way! Blessings.
Jabcat
Thank you for a respectful and thoughtful response.
Some questions come to mind because of it.
1# If a person Is asked to believe and worship Jesus Christ.
and is told that if he does not worship Jesus that they
and their families children will be tortured for ever.
Would you say the Gospel had been preached to them?
2#If a person is asked to believe and worship Jesus Christ.
and that person says "no never will I worship or serve a God
who would sent people to hell"
Has that person rejected the Gospel?
I agree that the Red letters border on the edge of inappropriateness.
I guess I was being Cheeky
Quote from: dajomaco on September 26, 2012, 12:19:36 AM
Jabcat
Thank you for a respectful and thoughtful response.
Some questions come to mind because of it.
1# If a person Is asked to believe and worship Jesus Christ.
and is told that if he does not worship Jesus that they
and their families children will be tortured for ever.
Would you say the Gospel had been preached to them?
2#If a person is asked to believe and worship Jesus Christ.
and that person says "no never will I worship or serve a God
who would sent people to hell"
Has that person rejected the Gospel?
I agree that the Red letters border on the edge of inappropriateness.
I guess I was being Cheeky
:handshake:
Well, I'll answer your pertinent questions, along with a question of my own that IMO, is also pertinent and intertwined in the issue.
Your questions may not have an easy, yes/no answer, in a broad actual context. I've sat through literally thousands of what's called here, "Invitations [to come to the Lord]" or "Altar Calls". They're at the end of a service, when the sermon's done, and the preacher encourages/exhorts people to believe on and confess Jesus as their Savior. In my pre-teen years (in the "backwoods/country" churches), there was quite a bit of hell-fire scare tactics during those Invitations. I PROBABLY (I can't judge) saw some folks "convert" [and maybe they did] in an at least partial response to those threats and fears. In those churches, I often saw people do what's called here "backsliding", i.e., making a confession of faith, then shortly turning back into their old ways, believing they were no longer saved, not even attempting to "live for the Lord". Then they'd do it all over again. Were some of them not really spiritually reborn because they were just responding to fear of hell, trying to escape it? I'm not the judge, but possibly, it might seem reasonable to assume that
could be the case in some instances. Only God knows their hearts.
Later, in the more mainstream churches, of those thousands of invitations, 90%+ of the time, hell was never mentioned. It was a declaration of "God loves you, He sent His Son to die on the cross for your sins, please come forward and accept Him today/tonight". A related thought; of the folks I've known and know that believe in ET/"hell", I almost NEVER EVER hear it even mentioned. I BELIEVE, the concept is so awful to them, and that it deep-down makes so little sense to them, that even though they've been taught it all their life, believe it, believe the Bible teahes it, they push it back as something they don't want to think about or talk about with other people. Certainly in not all but in many circles, it's generally not used to "evangelize". Again, there are glaring exceptions and pockets of people who "MAJOR" in hell, are hate-filled, "damn" people there, etc...but I honestly believe that's a loud minority that gets attention. And the reason they get attention is, it's disturbing!
So take those folks above in the mainstream churches, who are given this; "God loves you, He sent His Son to die on the cross for your sins, please come forward and accept Him today/tonight". Even if somewhere back in the crevaces of their subconscious mind there's a "hell" belief lingering, then here's my pertinent question. If someone feels the conviction of the Holy Spirit, bows their heart before God and asks Jesus to save them and forgive them of their sins, and confess Him as Lord of their life - can one truthfully and scripturally say "they're not saved/spiritually reborn"? What do the scriptures say?
1# If a person Is asked to believe and worship Jesus Christ.
and is told that if he does not worship Jesus that they
and their families children will be tortured for ever.
Would you say the Gospel had been preached to them? NO
2#If a person is asked to believe and worship Jesus Christ.
and that person says "no never will I worship or serve a God
who would sent people to hell"
Has that person rejected the Gospel? NO
If someone feels the conviction of the Holy Spirit, bows their heart before God and asks Jesus to save them and forgive them of their sins, and confess Him as Lord of their life - can one truthfully and scripturally say "they're not saved/spiritually reborn"? What do the scriptures say?
There are no formulas that an outside observer could use to see
and thus determine that some one else is in a right relationship with God
We can however determine whether the Gospel is being preached or not.
I do not think the Gospel the Good News has been preached to the Four
corners. Which leads back to Mollies prediction the end is near?
I believe the true Gospel is yet to be preached to all nations.
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2012, 08:42:46 PM
Quote from: DajoThe Gospel the TRUE Gospel must be preached.
Through out all the lands East and west and then the ends come.
Molly how many Muslims do you know whom have
had a gospel of inclusion preached to them.
How many people have had the option to choose Jesus with out the threat
of being eternally tormented if they don't?
Dajo, every muslim country was originally a Christian country. There is a remnant of Christians in each of these countries who somehow survived getting their heads cut off, their tongues cut out, their children murdered, their daughters taken into slavery--Does this sound harsh to you? I have more than a passing acquaintance with the methods of this 'religion/government/political movement/system of law'. Even so, this Christian remnant would happily risk their lives to give the gospel to any muslim that asked, even though they would probably risk jail or their lives by doing so.
The gospel has been preached in every muslim country. Mostly, they don't want to hear it. Do not ask me why. You see, they do not have a Savior in their religion. So torment is not a particular concern that they feel they can do much about. Oh wait, I think they get good points for killing Christians and Jews and praying five times a day.
The Christian community in the Middle East wants to promote peace and live in peace. It is essential to protect and preserve the Christian community there. I share the view of these Christians to promote peace and I believe they have a right to live in peace. Christians in the Middle East have become more and more a minority. There are reasons why this has happened.
This is just one example but the same thing is true with what has happened in other Middle East countries and for the same reasons.
Monday, October 18, 2004-Compass Direct
Excerpt: "Christians in Iraq are becoming more and more of a minority, and they are being sacrificed for the sake of the war against terrorism taking place on the battlefield of Iraq," he said. "We feel depressed, because we are considered like a 'playing card' that outside forces can manipulate for their own aims.
"We Iraqis of various religious and ethnic backgrounds
are used to living together and enjoying good relationships, but now these relations are being exploited," ....Without a strong Christian presence in Iraq, or candidates in the upcoming elections who insist on a separation between religion and the state, the country could move precariously toward becoming a theocracy dominated by Islamic parties and clerics. Iraqi Christians said they do not want to leave their country, but without the needed recognition and support of their rights, staying there is becoming a more difficult proposition.
http://www.crosswalk.com/1289972/?ps=0It has been decided that Christians in the Middle East are acceptable collateral damage. The rise of political Islam is a threat to not only Christians but also Muslims. Middle Eastern countries often identity Christianity with the West and this also is a reason and the views and beliefs of many Christians in the West has fanned the flames of Islamic fundalmentalism. This has made Middle East Christians even more a target with increased persecution and violence.
Middle East Christians say that the number one thing they would ask for from other Christians throughout the world is prayer but they also ask for help to promote peace and for recognition of their rights.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 26, 2012, 01:07:48 AM
1# If a person Is asked to believe and worship Jesus Christ.
and is told that if he does not worship Jesus that they
and their families children will be tortured for ever.
Would you say the Gospel had been preached to them? NO
2#If a person is asked to believe and worship Jesus Christ.
and that person says "no never will I worship or serve a God
who would sent people to hell"
Has that person rejected the Gospel? NO
If someone feels the conviction of the Holy Spirit, bows their heart before God and asks Jesus to save them and forgive them of their sins, and confess Him as Lord of their life - can one truthfully and scripturally say "they're not saved/spiritually reborn"? What do the scriptures say?
There are no formulas that an outside observer could use to see
and thus determine that some one else is in a right relationship with God
We can however determine whether the Gospel is being preached or not.
I do not think the Gospel the Good News has been preached to the Four
corners. Which leads back to Mollies prediction the end is near?
I believe the true Gospel is yet to be preached to all nations.
I disgree with your answers. I believe an intensive study of the relevant scriptures about what it means to be spiritually reborn indicate otherwise than what you've stated as "requirement" and "exclusions" to salvation. I prefer not to go gather all that information and present it, because I've already done searching on it, but the scriptures in summary say "believe on Jesus as Savior, confess your sins, trust the sufficiency of His sacrifice and resurrection", i.e., "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved". OTOH, I don't believe there's any scriptural backing for "believe and understand UR and you will be saved". I don't believe it's Biblical, and to me, a disturbing trend I've noticed in some UR circles.
To my understanding, when someone is spiritually reborn, they are responding to a specific, personal call of the Holy Spirit to them. I believe the scriptures teach the minimum they need to know is Jesus is the Messiah/Savior. And by calling on Him in belief, they are spiritually reborn (saved). It's a change of heart, a miracle, not based on advanced theological knowledge or revelation of deeper truths (UR for instance).
One more note, and then if you continue to believe as you currently do about it, I'll just agree to amicably disagree with you on this, and we can focus on Jesus, Savior. But using the line of thinking of "if they believe in hell or hell is part of the equation, then they can't be saved", brings this harshly into the spotlight - UR often uses a "better to believe now than face the purifying of the Lake of Fire" component. It's a very ingrained part of most of UR teaching. In fact, what did Jesus teach? Kolasin aionion - a cutting off, pruning, punishment/correction for a period of time - not pleasant, a warning, something to be avoided.
Well, thanks for the discussion. If you have follow-up, within a few post hopefully we can get back to the prophecy thread, and/or we can split this off into its own thread. Blessings.
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 01:09:12 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2012, 08:42:46 PM
Quote from: DajoThe Gospel the TRUE Gospel must be preached.
Through out all the lands East and west and then the ends come.
Molly how many Muslims do you know whom have
had a gospel of inclusion preached to them.
How many people have had the option to choose Jesus with out the threat
of being eternally tormented if they don't?
Dajo, every muslim country was originally a Christian country. There is a remnant of Christians in each of these countries who somehow survived getting their heads cut off, their tongues cut out, their children murdered, their daughters taken into slavery--Does this sound harsh to you? I have more than a passing acquaintance with the methods of this 'religion/government/political movement/system of law'. Even so, this Christian remnant would happily risk their lives to give the gospel to any muslim that asked, even though they would probably risk jail or their lives by doing so.
The gospel has been preached in every muslim country. Mostly, they don't want to hear it. Do not ask me why. You see, they do not have a Savior in their religion. So torment is not a particular concern that they feel they can do much about. Oh wait, I think they get good points for killing Christians and Jews and praying five times a day.
The Christian community in the Middle East wants to promote peace and live in peace. It is essential to protect and preserve the Christian community there. I share the view of these Christians to promote peace and I believe they have a right to live in peace. Christians in the Middle East have become more and more a minority. There are reasons why this has happened.
This is just one example but the same thing is true with what has happened in other Middle East countries and for the same reasons.
Monday, October 18, 2004-Compass Direct
Excerpt: "Christians in Iraq are becoming more and more of a minority, and they are being sacrificed for the sake of the war against terrorism taking place on the battlefield of Iraq," he said. "We feel depressed, because we are considered like a 'playing card' that outside forces can manipulate for their own aims.
"We Iraqis of various religious and ethnic backgrounds are used to living together and enjoying good relationships, but now these relations are being exploited," ....Without a strong Christian presence in Iraq, or candidates in the upcoming elections who insist on a separation between religion and the state, the country could move precariously toward becoming a theocracy dominated by Islamic parties and clerics. Iraqi Christians said they do not want to leave their country, but without the needed recognition and support of their rights, staying there is becoming a more difficult proposition.
http://www.crosswalk.com/1289972/?ps=0
It has been decided that Christians in the Middle East are acceptable collateral damage. The rise of political Islam is a threat to not only Christians but also Muslims. Middle Eastern countries often identity Christianity with the West and this also is a reason and the views and beliefs of many Christians in the West has fanned the flames of Islamic fundalmentalism. This has made Middle East Christians even more a target with increased persecution and violence.
Middle East Christians say that the number one thing they would ask for from other Christians throughout the world is prayer but they also ask for help to promote peace and for recognition of their rights.
Sometimes people think that if someone has this label or that label
they must believe a certain way.
Lets say a Muslim and a Christian were working side by side.
They asked honest questions and they
gave honest answers.
Christian;
Do all Muslim believe that their God would will,
that any one who does not bow down to Allah.
That it is the duty of Muslim adherents, to behead that person.
Muslim answer;
Some Muslims do but not the Majority.
Muslim:
Do all Christians believe that their God would will
that any one you does not bow down to Jesus
That God will torture and torment that person for ever and keep alive this
person for ever so he can keep on tormenting him.
Christian answer,
Some do but only the Majority.
The doctrine of Hell is the biggest source of unrest and peace in the Middle east.
There is no moderate Islam
"I compare Islam to a ladder, and the first rung of that ladder starts with that traditional muslim, and the highest rung of that ladder is Jihad. This is the highest and the most holy duty you can do for the God of the Koran. The God of the Koran hates Jews...
This is what every muslim believes..if you die for the glory of the God of the Koran [as a suicide bomber] you go to heaven. This is a big mistake: comparing between moderate muslims and the fanatics. This is not how we compare it. All muslims to me are the same. At the end of the day, they believe in the God of the Koran, and they believe that this Koran is from that God. [Moderate Islam] doesn't exist."
He goes on to say that individual muslims might have a higher morality than their God--if that makes sense to anyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnmNBbOuOsY
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 04:25:56 AM
There is no moderate Islam
"I compare Islam to a ladder, and the first rung of that ladder starts with that traditional muslim, and the highest rung of that ladder is Jihad. This is the highest and the most holy duty you can do for the God of the Koran. The God of the Koran hates Jews...
This is what every muslim believes..if you die for the glory of the God of the Koran [as a suicide bomber] you go to heaven. This is a big mistake: comparing between moderate muslims and the fanatics. This is not how we compare it. All muslims to me are the same. At the end of the day, they believe in the God of the Koran, and they believe that this Koran is from that God. [Moderate Islam] doesn't exist."
He goes on to say that individual muslims might have a higher morality than their God--if that makes sense to anyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnmNBbOuOsY
Well I will have to disagree with him. I don't believe that
all Muslims hate and are the same. Christians in the Middle East would disagree with him and they should know. :2c:
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 04:33:40 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 04:25:56 AM
There is no moderate Islam
"I compare Islam to a ladder, and the first rung of that ladder starts with that traditional muslim, and the highest rung of that ladder is Jihad. This is the highest and the most holy duty you can do for the God of the Koran. The God of the Koran hates Jews...
This is what every muslim believes..if you die for the glory of the God of the Koran [as a suicide bomber] you go to heaven. This is a big mistake: comparing between moderate muslims and the fanatics. This is not how we compare it. All muslims to me are the same. At the end of the day, they believe in the God of the Koran, and they believe that this Koran is from that God. [Moderate Islam] doesn't exist."
He goes on to say that individual muslims might have a higher morality than their God--if that makes sense to anyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnmNBbOuOsY
Well I will have to disagree with him. I don't believe that all Muslims hate and are the same. Christians in the Middle East would disagree with him and they should know. :2c:
Sorry, you are very wrong about that. The Armenians lived with the muslims 'peacefully,' in Turkey and then every once in a while the muslims would go on Jihad and kill a few and then things would settle down again, until one day they rounded up all 2 million of them and carried out a full blown genocide--99 percent gone. That genocide was always built into the equation, it was not a matter of 'if' but 'when.'
What do you expect the Christians living there to say? That is their home. They have to do their best to get along. You have no idea what is happening to Christians over there.
Have you noticed that once Christian countries have hardly any Christians left? Do you think that is an accident? The entire middle east was Christian when Islam was invented. It was called the Byzantine empire.
I will say one thing for the Christians there, they are real Christians. You would have to really be a believer to put up what they put up with for their faith.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 25, 2012, 03:26:45 AM
Molly don't embarrass your self by saying these things
will happen during your life time.
They happened from 3 1/2 years prior and on up to 70 AD. This is not a product of someone's imagination or wishful thinking. Just what is happening in the Near East evaluated by very confused minds is part of the whole problem. Religious indoctrination is often far from the truth. What actually happen in history is the truth and Jesus called Himself The Truth.
The 7 signs of Matthew 24 that Jesus said not all the generation hearing Him would pass 'til all were fulfilled (which culminated 38 years later,) to say they will all 7 happen again is simply not truth.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 25, 2012, 03:26:45 AM
As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]
Believe The Truth.
The Harlot of Babylon, Rev 17 and 18 by Walid Shoebat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1NkprOrLgeA
Who is The Harlot?
Mat 24 has to fit together with all the other prophecy in Revelation, in Isaiah, in Joel, in Ezekiel, in Daniel, and so forth. It all has to fit together. And, the book is sealed until the end times. What Walid Shoebat is describing in this video did not even happen until the mid 20th Century, right around the time the new country of Israel was established.
None of this can be understood unless you are exposed to all of the prophecy passages, which no one ever takes the time to do. How can you know the truth if you don't know the Bible?
Quote from: ReformerThe 7 signs of Matthew 24 that Jesus said not all the generation hearing Him would pass 'til all were fulfilled (which culminated 38 years later,) to say they will all 7 happen again is simply not truth.
Where does Jesus say not all the generation HEARING him would pass till all were fulfilled?
That is not what he says.
This is what he says:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye,
when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
--Mat 24
It is the generation that "sees all these things" who shall not pass until they all have been fulfilled.
It's about SEEING, not hearing.
So scroll back, and tell me which of those things were not fulfilled in 70ad.
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2012, 10:27:21 AM
Lebanon, Syria, Sinai, Jordan, Egypt, and Gaza---when do we declare Jerusalem emcompassed by armies?
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Luke 21:20
Who can't see Jerusalem surrounded with armies culminating in its destruction in 70 AD? What does historical fact mean? I find it difficult to reconcile what studying the subject of fulfilled prophecy reveals about Mt 24 and the people I assume are followers of the Lord who seem unable to recognize facts, or not be deterred by them. Don't roll out the "double fulfillment" slight of hand. Jesus indicated otherwise in what he said there with no hint of it all happening again.
Possibly the lack of a good presentation of an alternative view is part of why people don't want to leave the human tradition they've been taught. Time for change may play a role. It took me many years of hit and miss, here a little, there a little. Way back when, I didn't see the importance and didn't know where to search for corrective teaching on eschatology. Until we examine at least basic evidence, and it doesn't take that much reading (a little rebuttal, some pamphlet size teachings,) we really aren't very much scholars.
A few years ago, because I had the time, and both experienced revelation and had read a shelf of books on the topic of Universal Salvation, I decided to test just how good the knowledge I congratulated myself for having really was. Let me confront those who can challenge me. Let me see if I can answer them. Can they neither gainsay or resist? that is, are they able to best my knowledge and study or resist the Spirit working with the words I share? This is how I ended up in tentmaker.
Reformer, Jesus puts together a whole constellation of things that must occur, not just one thing. This is substantiated by all the prophets. You don't want to hear about partial fulfillment or double prophecy, then you prove to me that the whole contellation happened in 70ad, because I think it is obvious even to the casual observer that it did not.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
--Mat 24
This happened in 70ad? Really? No flesh saved except the days be shortened?
Forget the Holocaust. That was nothing compared to 70ad.
Forget the 100 million or so killed in World War 2. Again, nothing compared to 70ad.
It's just been a walk in the park since 70ad.
Or maybe you think it's all spiritual? spiritual flesh, spiritual tribulation, spiritual elect, spiritual days?
Consider how the days of creation were evening and morning. It wasn't until sometime during the evening and morning of the 6th period that the Image of God was made, male and female. The evening of the 6th day was before the time of brightness. There is no record of an evening between the emergence of the Image of God and the 7th day of rest, the time after the finishing of God's works, corresponding perhaps to the Millennial Age.
Yet the dipSINsationalists preach the worst and darkest night ever known is right before the Millennium. Then, they say, the devil will take over. They also miss the truth that God deserves and will have a victorious people upon whom His name is written. God will rise up as in the days He delivered His people from Egypt. He will restore His great name in the eyes of the nations, much as He did in days of yore.
In these days The Messiah has distributed Himself into billions of people living all over the Earth through whom He is present and breathing. Out of our mouths, each of which is His mouth, there proceeds a sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.
Quote from: ReformerYet the dipSINsationalists preach the worst and darkest night ever known is right before the Millennium. Then, they say, the devil will take over. They also miss the truth that God deserves and will have a victorious people upon whom His name is written. God will rise up as in the days He delivered His people from Egypt. He will restore His great name in the eyes of the nations, much as He did in days of yore.
Jesus is the one saying the worst and darkest night ever known is right before the Millenium.
The prophets say the same thing.
Am I missing something here?
21 For then shall be
great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
--Mat 24
It's Satan's [second to last] stand, Reformer. Satan will be giving it his best shot. You don't think that will be dark days?
And, yes, Jesus will rise up--he talks about the anger rising up in his face--and he will avenge and restore his people as he did in the days of yore.
Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore." Eze 37:28
I don't remember reading they cooked and ate their own children since the days of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. It happened. There's much more, like the killing of the priests for sport in the days leading up to Jerusalem's siege by the very mercenaries they hired to stabilize the breakdown of their society. This was not the world. This was God's Church. They went nuts, robbing, mutilating, killing...They'd've all died except God shortened the time. Read Josephus' account. There's no stretch in understanding all 7 signs, which must occur together, have already happened.
When you quote something (Mt 24) that has already happened 2,000 years ago as proof it's supposed to happen again in our future, something largely a made up theory about our future which is without unambiguous Scripture support, surely you can understand why I am justified in my skepticism. All the more because I see another scenario for the "end times." Though there may be some parallels, "The Rapture Doctrine" is in many ways opposite to "The Manifestation of the Sons of God."
Quote from: reFORMer on September 26, 2012, 10:08:24 AM
I don't remember reading they cooked and ate their own children since the days of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. It happened. There's much more, like the killing of the priests for sport in the days leading up to Jerusalem's siege by the very mercenaries they hired to stabilize the breakdown of their society. This was not the world. This was God's Church. They went nuts, robbing, mutilating, killing...They'd've all died except God shortened the time. Read Josephus' account. There's no stretch in understanding all 7 signs, which must occur together, have already happened.
When you quote something (Mt 24) that has already happened 2,000 years ago as proof it's supposed to happen again in our future, something largely a made up theory about our future which is without unambiguous Scripture support, surely you can understand why I am justified in my skepticism. All the more because I see another scenario for the "end times." Though there may be some parallels, "The Rapture Doctrine" is in many ways opposite to "The Manifestation of the Sons of God."
This thread is 58 pages long. You think I've just been repeating Mat 24? There is a ton of prophecy all over the Bible about the end of the age. You've made up your mind, and you are somehow justifying that whatever happened in 70ad is worse than anything that has happened since--because it would have to be, this is what Jesus tells us--the worse thing that will ever happen is going to happen one time and never again will anything that bad happen--wow--I can think of things in my lifetime alone that were much much worse than anything you can come up with for 70ad.
If you give me the whole 20th century, I win hands down.
Quote from: reFORMer on September 26, 2012, 09:08:04 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2012, 10:27:21 AM
Lebanon, Syria, Sinai, Jordan, Egypt, and Gaza---when do we declare Jerusalem emcompassed by armies?
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Luke 21:20
Who can't see Jerusalem surrounded with armies culminating in its destruction in 70 AD? What does historical fact mean? I find it difficult to reconcile what studying the subject of fulfilled prophecy reveals about Mt 24 and the people I assume are followers of the Lord who seem unable to recognize facts, or not be deterred by them. Don't roll out the "double fulfillment" slight of hand. Jesus indicated otherwise in what he said there with no hint of it all happening again.
In Luke 21:20, Jesus likely alludes to Zechariah's prophecies.
Zechariah 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
This could hardly apply to 70 A.D. as the "invaders," the Roman armies, were not "cut in pieces." The burdensome stone must be the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one. See Daniel 2:35, where Christ's kingdom is represented by a "stone cut out without hands."
Zechariah 14:3
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
This could not apply to the events of 70 A.D. either. Jesus did not fight against the Romans, or send awful plagues on them, and on their horses, mules, asses, and camels. Neither did these armies fight against each other.
Zechariah 14:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
On the other hand these prophecies do not apply to armies in the modern era. Horses, mules, asses, and camels would not be employed in any modern invasion of Palestine. They are very vulnerable to modern weapons. And what would be the point of "all the people of the earth" gathering against the earthly Jerusalem? Think of the problems involved in feeding them, and the sanitation problems it would cause--water is already scarce in that country.
Aside from all this, there is the question of the mount of Olives, being cleaved in the midst, and half of it moving north, and half of it moving south. This did not happen in 70 A.D. The dispensationalists say it will happen when Jesus returns. But what would be the point?
I suggest that one of the reasons for prophecy, is to reveal how Jesus is reigning, and fulfilling all the things that he foretold, and has been doing so since he ascended to heaven in the first century. This is partly what is meant by his feet standing upon the mount of Olives. The things he foretold in the Olivet Discourse outline the future, from that time to the present.
The
Jerusalem to which the prophecies apply (including Luke 21:20) is not the earthly city, but the heavenly one, the church. The invasion he spoke of was already evident in the time of the apostles. "Gentiles" have trampled the holy city in all ages of the church. Paul said, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [Eph. 6:12]
Christ fights against those who come against his holy city, by smiting his enemies with spiritual plagues. "In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness." [Zech. 12:4]
"Madness" and "blindness" alludes to plagues of a spiritual kind. Those who mistake the Jerusalem of prophecy for the earthly city, are examples of this blindness; they don't "see" or understand that Isa. 2:2 was fulfilled, when Jesus ascended to heaven, and to the throne of his Father, and since then, the Jerusalem to which prophecy applies is the heavenly one. The apostles understood this. When Peter said Jesus had been "made Christ," he knew that this meant that Jesus had received an eternal throne, the throne of David, and it meant ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel from Jerusalem. All that was implied by saying he had been "made Christ." And those Jews who did not believe in him were
cut off from Israel, and from the promises. [Acts 3:23] Paul said they were branches broken off their tree. [Rom. 11:17] Both preterists and dispensationalists are
blind to this.
Horses in Zechariah's prophecy probably mean people with no understanding. [Psa. 32:9] When Saul was travelling to Damascus to attack the church, Christ spoke to him from heaven and said to him, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." [Acts 9:5] He implied that Saul was behaving like a horse or a mule. He was
made blind for three days. There is an obvious fulfilment of Zech. 12:4 here. The "horses" in Zechariah's prophecy are not literal horses. The "Jerusalem" is not the earthly city. Christ fought to defend his saints, the heavenly Jerusalem.
But in 70 A.D. Jesus did not fight to defend the Jews in the earthly Jerusalem. The New Testament shows that "Jerusalem" is the heavenly city where Christ is king.
Preterism and dispensationalism deny that the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24-25 applies to the church in the present age. They misinterpret the Jerusalem to which prophecy applies. Both say it applies to the earthly city. They deny that prophecy, for the most part, applies to the church in the present age. They remove it to either the past, or the future. But that is obviously a distorted, biased position. They apply the prophecies that apply to the saints to ethnic Jews who deny that Jesus is the Christ.
IMO, Zechariah's prophecy in Zech. 14:4 depicts those flawed interpretations as the two halves of the mount of Olives moving apart in opposite directions. Preterism, perhaps, is the half that moves north, and dispensationalism is the half that is displaced to the south, and there is a valley between, which represents the present age.
Zechariah said, flee to the "valley of the mountains," an invisible valley between the two displaced portions of the mountain. The phrase "valley of the mountains" seems to conflate a valley with mountains. Mountains represent promises, and a great promise is given to those who follow Zechariah's advice, and abandon preterism and dispensationalism: "the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee." The valley between the two displaced sections of the mount of Olives is a place where Christians are brought together in unity. They are united with Christ, and not among his enemies.
Zechariah 14:4-5 points to a middle course, between those two extremes: apply the Olivet Discourse to the present age, not Jews in the first century, and not to Jews in a future seven year tribulation.
Zechariah 14:6-7
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
The spiritual gloominess and darkness described in these verses is characteristic of the present age.
Zechariah 14:8-9
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
The living waters of the gospel flow from the heavenly Jerusalem, the church. Jesus reigns as king over his saints, on the throne of David, and he also rules over all things in heaven and earth. He said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." [Matt. 28:18] The Jerusalem where he reigns is in heaven. Paul said those who believe in Christ are raised up together, and "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Eph. 2:6]
When Jesus ascended to heaven, and to the throne of his Father, Jerusalem was raised up, and was "established in the top of the mountains," and was "exalted above the hills" as foretold in Isa. 2:2. That is when it became the heavenly city, the Jerusalem above. [Gal. 4:26]
The earthly Jerusalem was identified with Hagar the bondwoman who was cast out. [Gal. 4:26, 30] After Jesus ascended to heaven, prophecies about Jerusalem apply to the heavenly city, where Christ is king. So in Zechariah 14:16, the nations who come up to Jerusalem to worship Christ have to come to the heavenly city, not the earthly one.
Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This is also what Jesus said in John 4:21-23. People will no longer go to the earthly city, but will worship God in spirit and in truth.
The feast of tabernacles has a spiritual significance, and pictures God dwelling with man as the tabernacle of God was with the Israelites in the wilderness. This prophecy also applies in the present age.
Zechariah 14:17-18
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Egypt normally has very little rain. Taken literally, it would be quite meaningless, to say Egypt would have no rain. This is speaking of rain in a metaphorical sense; it represents God's word. [Isa. 55:10-11]
Paul said, "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." [2 Cor. 3:6]
Doug
Amen..Jerusalem above shall never be moved...the Lord Himself shall establish her...indeed of Zion it will
be said 'this one and that one were born in her. As they make music they will sing.
the camp of the Holy city is in the th when He walks and dwells in them
SOS 6;12 before I realized it, my desire set me among the royal chariots of my people.......this is Jesus
going forth in spiritual warfare to deliver His church from being overcome of the dragon..by doctrines of
devils'to wash her away'..the light we enjoy of truth and our deliverance that called us out of bABYLON
IS DUE TO hIS WARRING TO DELIVER US.....COME BACK COME BACK o'sHULAMITE IS THE VOICE OF THE
'FREINDS' BROTHERS THAT KEPT WATCH AS LONG AS SHE WAS A CHILD..BUT WITH MATURITY
SHE LEAVES TO BE JOINED TO HER HUSBAND.... OF bABYLON IT IS SAID WHEN SHE LEAVES..
THAT YOU WILL NO MORE HEAR THE VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM OF BRIDE IN YOU
WHY WOULD YOU GAZE ON THE sHULAMITE AS ON THE DANCE OF mAHANAIM?
gENESIS 32;2 jACOB ALSO WENT ON hIS WAY AND THE ANGELS OF GOD MET HIM...
WHEN JACOB SAW THEM HE SAID "THIS IS THE CAMP OF GOD'..SO HE NAMED THAT PLACE
MAHANAIM.
THIS IS ALL ABOUT CHRIST DELIVERING HIS CHURCH UNTO HIMSELF BLAMELESS AND SPOTLESS AND
RADIANT........HIS FIERY JEALOUSY COME DOWN AND BURNS UP ALL THE POWER OF THE ENEMY
SO THAT SHE MAY BE THE NEW JERUSALEM ESTABLISHED IN THE EARTH.....
I AM MAKING EVERYTHING NEW
Quote from: reFORMer on September 26, 2012, 09:30:39 AM
Consider how the days of creation were evening and morning. It wasn't until sometime during the evening and morning of the 6th period that the Image of God was made, male and female. The evening of the 6th day was before the time of brightness. There is no record of an evening between the emergence of the Image of God and the 7th day of rest, the time after the finishing of God's works, corresponding perhaps to the Millennial Age.
Yet the dipSINsationalists preach the worst and darkest night ever known is right before the Millennium. Then, they say, the devil will take over. They also miss the truth that God deserves and will have a victorious people upon whom His name is written. God will rise up as in the days He delivered His people from Egypt. He will restore His great name in the eyes of the nations, much as He did in days of yore.
In these days The Messiah has distributed Himself into billions of people living all over the Earth through whom He is present and breathing. Out of our mouths, each of which is His mouth, there proceeds a sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.
Hi reFORMer,
Am very interested in what you are saying. I am curious as to how you see the time frame from here on? Do you believe that Jesus will return in the future? If not what will happen as far as the resurrection, will there be one? If not, will everything continue as it is without end?
I do believe that a lot of prophecy has been fulfilled. I use to didn't see things as I do now. I thought most of prophecy was still in the future but have changed my mind.
I believe in Matt. 24 Jesus was addressing the generation at that time and not far into the future. I think he would have said "that generation" not "this generation" if he had been talking about the future.
CHB
Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Which Jerusalem is meant? Perhaps the destruction of the earthly city was a sign for the saints; those events signified that the spiritual desolation of the heavenly city was near. The apostle John said that there were already "many antichrists."
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
In Daniel, the time when the abomination of desolation is set up, is related to the time when the daily sacrifice is taken away, which was one of the effects of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." [Dan. 12:11]
The thousand two hundred and ninety days are not literal days, but it is a figure representing the remaining time of the church, after the abomination of desolation is set up. The desolation of the heavenly Jerusalem is spiritual, and is due to the proliferation of false teachers, as Peter foretold in 2 Peter 2. It has continued since the time of the apostles, though unrecognized by most.
Doug
EXACTLY DOUG! THAT IS WHY I SEE IT AS A SIGN IN THE EARTH .
So--when the real Jerusalem on earth is invaded --it will mean nothing to you folks, right?
Quote from: sheila on September 26, 2012, 07:24:35 PM
EXACTLY DOUG! THAT IS WHY I SEE IT AS A SIGN IN THE EARTH .
Good for you. :thumbsup:
Here is a chart showing how the various numbers in Daniel and Revelation relate to the age of the church. The 1,290 is intermediate between the 1,335 days, and 1,260 days. It marks the abomination of desolation being set up. The 1,260 days extends from the writing of Revelation, probably about 95 A.D., and the completion of the canon of the NT, and the beginning of the ministry of the two witnesses, and the time the woman is nourished in the wilderness.
Doug
(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/D70/timeline1.png)
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 07:37:01 PM
So--when the real Jerusalem on earth is invaded --it will mean nothing to you folks, right?
Revelation 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Those who dwell in heaven are told to rejoice. But there is "woe" for them that dwell in the earth and in the sea!
Doug
Quote from: Doug on September 26, 2012, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 07:37:01 PM
So--when the real Jerusalem on earth is invaded --it will mean nothing to you folks, right?
Revelation 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Those who dwell in heaven are told to rejoice. But there is "woe" for them that dwell in the earth and in the sea!
Doug
And, what do you think that is supposed to mean, practically speaking?
Because I'm talking about a real event. I'm not sure what you are talking about.
If I'm dead and in heaven, I will be happy?
I was watching a couple of Reuters news videos. These videos showed a protest in Egypt against the regime there where Christians were protecting Muslims who were praying and then the Muslims were protecting the Christians from the pro-regime vigilantes. In another news video, a Muslim came to the aide of three Jewish subway riders who were attacked by a group of people who were also calling them names. I doubt very much that a Muslim would risk his life that way if he hates Jews. There are so many stories like this. But we just don't hear about them.
Speech of Ahmedinijad [Iran] to the UN in New York today. The US and Israel left the room. Those who have been paying attention to this thread will understand what and who he is talking about. The rest, not so much.
"There is no doubt that the world is in need of a New Order and a fresh way of thinking, an order in which man is recognized as God's supreme creature...."
He goes on to describe a wonderful world of peace and justice and equality.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, Is it possible to have such an order...?"
He tells us how to achieve this order.
He wants to restructure the United Nations.
AND ARE YOU READY FOR IT?
"God has promised us a man of kindness, a man who loves people, who loves absolute justice, a man who is a perfect human being and his name [ ...] Mahdi a man who will come in the company of Jesus Christ and the righteous. He will lead humanity into achieving its glorious and eternal ideals. The arrival of the ultimate Savior [Mahdi] will mark a new beginning, a rebirth, and a resurrection. It will be the beginning of peace, lasting security, and genuine life. His arrival will be the end of oppression, immorality, poverty, and discrimination, and the beginning of justice, love, and empathy. He will come and he will cut through ignorance, superstition, prejudice, by opening the gates of science and knowledge. He will establish a world brimfull of prudence and he will prepare the ground for the collective, active and constructive participation of all in the global management. He will come to grant kindness, hope, freedom, and dignity to all humanity as a gift. He will come so mankind will taste the pleasure of being human and being in the company of other humans. He will come so that hands will be joined, hearts will be filled with love, and thoughts will be purified to be at the service of security, welfare, happiness, well-being, and peace for all. He will come to return all children of Adam ... linking them to eternal happiness and joy.
The arrival of the Ultimate Savior [Mahdi], Jesus Christ and the Righteous, will bring about an eternally bright future for mankind, not by force or waging wars, but through thought ..and developing kindness in everyone. Their arrival will breed a new life in the cold and frozen hearts and body of the world. He will bless humanity with a spring that puts an end to our winter of ignorance, poverty, and war...He puts an end to the winter of ignorance for humanity
Now we can see and we can sense the sweet scent and soulful breeze of the spring, a spring that has just begun and doesn't belong to a specific race, ethnicity, nation, or region, a spring that will soon reach all the territories in Asia, Europe, Africa, and America. He will be the spring of all the justice seekers, freedom lovers, and followers of heavenly thinkers, the spring of humanity and the greenery of all ages. Let us join hands and clear the way for his eventual arrival ...in harmony and unity. Let us march on this path to salvation....Long live this spring!"
http://webtv.un.org/watch/iran-general-debate-67th-session/1862691592001/
COME ON MOLLY..YOU KNOW OUR HEARTS ARE NOT HARD....IV'E MOURNED FOR THE WHOLE WORLD
FOR DECADES NOW...FOR WHAT IS DONE IN HER.......WHY ELSE WOULD ANY OF US HAD BEEN
MARKED IN THE FOREHEAD WITH THE MAN WITH THE INKHORN[HOLY SPIRIT] IF GOD HAD NOT
SEEN THE GREAT SORROW IN OUR HEART FOR THE SUFFERING THAT SATAN MISLEADING PEOPLE BRINGS.
I TRUST IN HIM AND IN HIS COMMAND TO NOT WAR WITH THE ARM OF FLESH....
AND ANYTHING THAT SATAN DOES IN THE WAY OF EVIL. THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE EARTH
.GOD WILL WORK TO THE GOOD OF THOSE WHO LOVE= ENDURANCE OF SUFFERING EVIL,
NOT AGREEING WITH IT
MAYBE THE CHRISTIAN BELEIVERS SHOULD HAVE NOT RUN TO THE MOUNTAINS AND GOT OUT OF
JERUSALEM BACK IN 70 AD BUT STAYED AND FOUGHT IN THE FLESH? IT IS THE SAME THING YOU
ASK OF US.
WHO KNOWS..WW 3 COULD COME OF IT..AND WE MAY BE REQUIRED TO LAY OUR OWN LIVES DOWN
BUT THIS WE KNOW..THAT ALL WILL RECEIVE THE FREEGIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE...AND THIS COMFORTS ME
THE GREAT ACCUSOR STANDS IN THE EARTH IN THIS BATTLE.....POINTING THE FINGERS AT EACH OTHER
ALL DAY LONG...WILL SATAN CAST OUT SATAN? THAT HIS HOUSE NOT STAND...SHALL THE THREE
KINGS OF THE EARTH THAT COMMITS FORNICATION WITH BABYLON[CHRISTIAN MUSLIMS JEWS CARNALITY]]
THREE GREAT RELIGIONS THAT FORNICATE WITH KINGS OF THE EARTH[NATIONS WARRING]
I COME NOT TO BRING PEACE TO THE EARTH BUT DIVISION
ALL THE GREAT WARS AND BLLODSHED SPILLED IN THE EARTH [THE CUP OF ABOMINATION IN HER HAND]
THE TIME HAS COME TO DESTROY THOSE WHO DESTROY THE EARTH..DEMONIC DOCTRINES/LIES
.THOSE WHO SAY THEY ARE JEWS AND ARE NOT..BUT ARE OF THE SYN OF GOG UE OF SATAN[ALL OF
THEM SAY..WE RULE/KINGDOM OF GOD AS GOD]
HE SAYS ' I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE- WHERE SATAN HAS HIS THRONE....
NEVERTHELESS I HAVE A FEW THING AGAINST YOU; YOU HAVE PEOPLE THERE WHO HOLD TO THE
TEACHING OF BALAAM WHO TAUGHT BALAK TO ENTICE THE ISREALITES TO SIN BY EATING FOOD
SACRIFICED TO IDOLS AND BY COMMITING SEXUAL IMMORALITY
THEY ARE EATING FOOD SACRIFICED TO IDOLS[WAR BY ARM OF FLESH] THEY ARE COMMITING SPIRITUAL
FORNICATION WITH KINGS OF THE EARTH[JOINED TO THEM AS A HUSBANDLY OWNER
INSTEAD OF THE LORD AND DOING THEIR WILL[KINGS]
LIKEWISE YOU HAVE THOSE WHO HOLD TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE NICOLAITINS[COMPROMISE WITH
PAGAN SOCIETY]
REPENT THEREFORE! OTHERWISE I WILL COME TO YOU AND WILL FIGHT WITH YOU WITH THE SWORD OF
MY MOUTH
THEY ARE DECEIVED EVEN AS WE WERE........HE HAS DLIVERED US FROM SUCH WORKS OF DARKNESS
AND HE SHALL DELIVER THEM IN THEIR ORDER
EVERY ENEMY SHALL BE BROUGHT INTOSUBJECTION BY HIM...HE SHALL RULE!!!
WE ARE TO REJOICE BECAUSE HE IS SHORTLY GOING TO CRUSH THE HEAD[MIND] OF THAT SPIRIT
THAT IS MISLEADING THE ENTIRE INHABITED EARTH...SATAN'S TIME IS 'SHORT' AS IN
IF HE HAD NOT CUT THOSE DAYS SHORT
PEOPLE ARE SICK TO DEATH OVER ALL THE FIGHTING WARRING AND KILLING DONE IN THE NAME
OF GOD..THAT KILL YOU AND THINK THEY DO GOD A SERVICE.
CAN YOU IMAGINE A NEW EARTH WHERE RIGHTEOUSNESS TRULY DWELLS? WHERE SOME IMPOSTER
SPIRIT IS NOT 'TAKING THE KINGDOM WITH VIOLENCE'
IF YOU COUNT YOUR BODY AS GOOD AS DEAD AND SIT IN HEAVENLY PLACES..YOU SHOULD BE
REJOICING THAT THE SAVIOUR IS COMEING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN....TO DELIVER ALL
FROM THIS BODY UNDERGOING THIS DEATH
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:42:20 PM
I was watching a couple of Reuters news videos. These videos showed a protest in Egypt against the regime there where Christians were protecting Muslims who were praying and then the Muslims were protecting the Christians from the pro-regime vigilantes. In another news video, a Muslim came to the aide of three Jewish subway riders who were attacked by a group of people who were also calling them names. I doubt very much that a Muslim would risk his life that way if he hates Jews. There are so many stories like this. But we just don't hear about them.
So what? You think a few good people of all races, creeds, and faiths are going to change the beast system spoken of in Revelation? Do you understand that Christians and Jews are Dhimmi's in muslim nations? That is, Slaves, second class citizens. Do you want to go live in the middle east as a Christian and be a slave and at the whim and mercy of Allah, a god who resembles satan in every way?
Have you watched the videos I have posted on here to educate yourself about this system? I watch all your videos. Will you return the favor? [Of course, yours tend to be more pleasant, but even so...]
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 08:51:25 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:42:20 PM
I was watching a couple of Reuters news videos. These videos showed a protest in Egypt against the regime there where Christians were protecting Muslims who were praying and then the Muslims were protecting the Christians from the pro-regime vigilantes. In another news video, a Muslim came to the aide of three Jewish subway riders who were attacked by a group of people who were also calling them names. I doubt very much that a Muslim would risk his life that way if he hates Jews. There are so many stories like this. But we just don't hear about them.
So what? You think a few good people of all races, creeds, and faiths are going to change the beast system spoken of in Revelation? Do you understand that Christians and Jews are Dhimmi's in muslim nations? That is, Slaves, second class citizens. Do you want to go live in the middle east as a Christian and be a slave and at the whim and mercy of Allah, a god who resembles satan in every way?
Have you watched the videos I have posted on here to educate yourself about this system? I watch all your videos. Will you return the favor? [Of course, yours tend to be more pleasant, but even so...]
The point is all Muslims are not the same. All Muslims do not hate.
QuoteCOME ON MOLLY..YOU KNOW OUR HEARTS ARE NOT HARD
Why would God tell us about the Antichrist, the Beast, the False Prophet, the Harlot and so forth, if he didn't want us to understand what is happening when we see it with our own eyes unfolding in the world?
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:57:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 08:51:25 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:42:20 PM
I was watching a couple of Reuters news videos. These videos showed a protest in Egypt against the regime there where Christians were protecting Muslims who were praying and then the Muslims were protecting the Christians from the pro-regime vigilantes. In another news video, a Muslim came to the aide of three Jewish subway riders who were attacked by a group of people who were also calling them names. I doubt very much that a Muslim would risk his life that way if he hates Jews. There are so many stories like this. But we just don't hear about them.
So what? You think a few good people of all races, creeds, and faiths are going to change the beast system spoken of in Revelation? Do you understand that Christians and Jews are Dhimmi's in muslim nations? That is, Slaves, second class citizens. Do you want to go live in the middle east as a Christian and be a slave and at the whim and mercy of Allah, a god who resembles satan in every way?
Have you watched the videos I have posted on here to educate yourself about this system? I watch all your videos. Will you return the favor? [Of course, yours tend to be more pleasant, but even so...]
The point is all Muslims are not the same. All Muslims do not hate.
But their religion, the book they read, the god they follow, the Koran and the Hadith tells them to lie to, cheat, steal from, and to kill Christians and Jews.
So they are either following their religion or not.
If we follow Jesus Christ, do we only follow some of his teachings and discard the rest?
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 07:55:52 PM
Quote from: Doug on September 26, 2012, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 07:37:01 PM
So--when the real Jerusalem on earth is invaded --it will mean nothing to you folks, right?
Revelation 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Those who dwell in heaven are told to rejoice. But there is "woe" for them that dwell in the earth and in the sea!
Doug
And, what do you think that is supposed to mean, practically speaking?
Because I'm talking about a real event. I'm not sure what you are talking about.
If I'm dead and in heaven, I will be happy?
To those that dwell in the earth, the earthly Jerusalem is "real," the heavenly one is not. The earthly country called "Israel" is the "real" one, the Israel of God is not. TV news announcers, newspaper reporters, politicians recognize only the earthly things. John said that dragon "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan," "deceiveth the whole world."
Those that dwell in heaven are those who are "in Christ," who teaches us that the earthly Jerusalem and its temple were among the things called "an example and shadow of heavenly things." [Heb. 8:5]
Doug
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 09:06:09 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:57:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 08:51:25 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:42:20 PM
I was watching a couple of Reuters news videos. These videos showed a protest in Egypt against the regime there where Christians were protecting Muslims who were praying and then the Muslims were protecting the Christians from the pro-regime vigilantes. In another news video, a Muslim came to the aide of three Jewish subway riders who were attacked by a group of people who were also calling them names. I doubt very much that a Muslim would risk his life that way if he hates Jews. There are so many stories like this. But we just don't hear about them.
So what? You think a few good people of all races, creeds, and faiths are going to change the beast system spoken of in Revelation? Do you understand that Christians and Jews are Dhimmi's in muslim nations? That is, Slaves, second class citizens. Do you want to go live in the middle east as a Christian and be a slave and at the whim and mercy of Allah, a god who resembles satan in every way?
Have you watched the videos I have posted on here to educate yourself about this system? I watch all your videos. Will you return the favor? [Of course, yours tend to be more pleasant, but even so...]
The point is all Muslims are not the same. All Muslims do not hate.
But their religion, the book they read, the god they follow, the Koran and the Hadith tells them to lie to, cheat, steal from, and to kill Christians and Jews.
So they are either following their religion or not.
If we follow Jesus Christ, do we only follow some of his teachings and discard the rest?
Well, I guess there are those who claim to follow Jesus who follow only some of his teachings and discard the rest. Because this group that attacked the Jews on the subway claimed to be Christians, followers of Jesus. But that doesn't mean that all Christians act this way and would do this to Jews.
Quote from: Doug on September 26, 2012, 09:06:46 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 07:55:52 PM
Quote from: Doug on September 26, 2012, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 07:37:01 PM
So--when the real Jerusalem on earth is invaded --it will mean nothing to you folks, right?
Revelation 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Those who dwell in heaven are told to rejoice. But there is "woe" for them that dwell in the earth and in the sea!
Doug
And, what do you think that is supposed to mean, practically speaking?
Because I'm talking about a real event. I'm not sure what you are talking about.
If I'm dead and in heaven, I will be happy?
To those that dwell in the earth, the earthly Jerusalem is "real," the heavenly one is not. The earthly country called "Israel" is the "real" one, the Israel of God is not. TV news announcers, newspaper reporters, politicians recognize only the earthly things. John said that dragon "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan," "deceiveth the whole world."
Those that dwell in heaven are those who are "in Christ," who teaches us that the earthly Jerusalem and its temple were among the things called "an example and shadow of heavenly things." [Heb. 8:5]
Doug
Oh, in that case, since I'm not real to you, I guess you're not real to me, either. lol
Since I'm still walking around on earth, my temple is not in heaven. This body is the temple of the Lord. My feet are still touching the ground. And, I will do what I can to help my brothers, as God has instructed me.
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 09:10:11 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 09:06:09 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:57:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 08:51:25 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:42:20 PM
I was watching a couple of Reuters news videos. These videos showed a protest in Egypt against the regime there where Christians were protecting Muslims who were praying and then the Muslims were protecting the Christians from the pro-regime vigilantes. In another news video, a Muslim came to the aide of three Jewish subway riders who were attacked by a group of people who were also calling them names. I doubt very much that a Muslim would risk his life that way if he hates Jews. There are so many stories like this. But we just don't hear about them.
So what? You think a few good people of all races, creeds, and faiths are going to change the beast system spoken of in Revelation? Do you understand that Christians and Jews are Dhimmi's in muslim nations? That is, Slaves, second class citizens. Do you want to go live in the middle east as a Christian and be a slave and at the whim and mercy of Allah, a god who resembles satan in every way?
Have you watched the videos I have posted on here to educate yourself about this system? I watch all your videos. Will you return the favor? [Of course, yours tend to be more pleasant, but even so...]
The point is all Muslims are not the same. All Muslims do not hate.
But their religion, the book they read, the god they follow, the Koran and the Hadith tells them to lie to, cheat, steal from, and to kill Christians and Jews.
So they are either following their religion or not.
If we follow Jesus Christ, do we only follow some of his teachings and discard the rest?
Well, I guess there are those who claim to follow Jesus who follow only some of his teachings and discard the rest. Because this group that attacked the Jews on the subway claimed to be Christians, followers of Jesus. But that doesn't mean that all Christians act this way and would do this to Jews.
You are saying that Christians attacked Jews on a subway in Egypt? Do you have a link to that?
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 09:14:56 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 09:10:11 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 09:06:09 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:57:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 08:51:25 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:42:20 PM
I was watching a couple of Reuters news videos. These videos showed a protest in Egypt against the regime there where Christians were protecting Muslims who were praying and then the Muslims were protecting the Christians from the pro-regime vigilantes. In another news video, a Muslim came to the aide of three Jewish subway riders who were attacked by a group of people who were also calling them names. I doubt very much that a Muslim would risk his life that way if he hates Jews. There are so many stories like this. But we just don't hear about them.
So what? You think a few good people of all races, creeds, and faiths are going to change the beast system spoken of in Revelation? Do you understand that Christians and Jews are Dhimmi's in muslim nations? That is, Slaves, second class citizens. Do you want to go live in the middle east as a Christian and be a slave and at the whim and mercy of Allah, a god who resembles satan in every way?
Have you watched the videos I have posted on here to educate yourself about this system? I watch all your videos. Will you return the favor? [Of course, yours tend to be more pleasant, but even so...]
The point is all Muslims are not the same. All Muslims do not hate.
But their religion, the book they read, the god they follow, the Koran and the Hadith tells them to lie to, cheat, steal from, and to kill Christians and Jews.
So they are either following their religion or not.
If we follow Jesus Christ, do we only follow some of his teachings and discard the rest?
Well, I guess there are those who claim to follow Jesus who follow only some of his teachings and discard the rest. Because this group that attacked the Jews on the subway claimed to be Christians, followers of Jesus. But that doesn't mean that all Christians act this way and would do this to Jews.
You are saying that Christians attacked Jews on a subway in Egypt? Do you have a link to that?
I said they apparently claimed to be Christians. No this didn't happen in Egypt. It happened in NY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlwc0mE0lCU
oH I'M WATCHING ALRIGHT! YES! THERE IS A DRAGON READY TO DEVOUR THE MANCHILD AS
SOON AS HE IS BORN. AND YES, SATAN HAS HIS READY TO WAR AGAINST THE CAMP OF THE HOLY ONES
BUT IT ALSO SAYS..AND FIRE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DEVOURED ALL THEIR ENEMIES...
AND FOR ME..THIS IS MY BREAD TODAY! AND I LIVE BY IT NOW AND WILL LIVE BY IT FOREVER AND I WILL
NEVER DIE BY IT.........NEVER ONCE HAS JESUS INSTRUCTED HIS TO PICK UP A LITERAL SWORD
HE SAID THOSE WHO LIVE BY THE SWORD DIE BY THE SWORD......
DAVID COULD NOT BUILD THE HOUSE OF THE LORD[RAISE IT UP] BECAUSE HE WAS A BLOODY MAN
WE CAN DO NOTHING IN OURSELVES..WE MUST REMAIN IN THE VINE THAT HE MAY WALK IN US
THAT HIS GARMENTS BE STAINED WITH BLOOD OF HIS GRAPES......iSAAIH 34;6......FOR THE LORD
HAS A SACRIFICE IN BOZRAH[JUDGEMENT AGAINST THE NATIONS] AND A GREAT SLAUGHTER IN
EDOM.
LET THE EARTH HEAR AND ALL THAT IS IN IT, THE WORLD AND ALL THAT COME OUT OF IT
THE LORD IS ANGRY WITH ALL THE NATIONS
HIS WRATH IS UPON ALL THEIR ARMIES
FOR THE LORD HAS A DAY OF VENEGEANCE A YEAR OF RETRIBUTION TO UPHOLD ZION'S CAUSE...
GOD WILL STRETCH OUT OVER EDOM THE MEASURING LINE OF CHOAS AND THE PLUMB LINE
OF DESOLATION. HER NOBLES WILL HAVE NOTHING THERE TO CALL A KINGDOM
AMEN SHEILA!!!!
Amen indeed. No army of earth can stand against the voice of the Lord. Tho the vision tarry, wait for it, it shall yet come to pass at the appointed time. He will cast forth a measuring line over the earth and it will be gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
(2Co 4:3-4)
So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
(2Pe 1:19-21)
sos 1;7 ........why should i be like a veiled woman by the flocks of your friends?
IF YOU DO NOT KNOW, MOST BEAUTIFUL OF WOMEN..FOLLOW THE TRACKS OF THE SHEEP
AND GRAZE YOUR YOUNG GOATS BY THE TENTS OF THE SHEPHERDS
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 09:21:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 09:14:56 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 09:10:11 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 09:06:09 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:57:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2012, 08:51:25 PM
Quote from: truthquest on September 26, 2012, 08:42:20 PM
I was watching a couple of Reuters news videos. These videos showed a protest in Egypt against the regime there where Christians were protecting Muslims who were praying and then the Muslims were protecting the Christians from the pro-regime vigilantes. In another news video, a Muslim came to the aide of three Jewish subway riders who were attacked by a group of people who were also calling them names. I doubt very much that a Muslim would risk his life that way if he hates Jews. There are so many stories like this. But we just don't hear about them.
So what? You think a few good people of all races, creeds, and faiths are going to change the beast system spoken of in Revelation? Do you understand that Christians and Jews are Dhimmi's in muslim nations? That is, Slaves, second class citizens. Do you want to go live in the middle east as a Christian and be a slave and at the whim and mercy of Allah, a god who resembles satan in every way?
Have you watched the videos I have posted on here to educate yourself about this system? I watch all your videos. Will you return the favor? [Of course, yours tend to be more pleasant, but even so...]
The point is all Muslims are not the same. All Muslims do not hate.
But their religion, the book they read, the god they follow, the Koran and the Hadith tells them to lie to, cheat, steal from, and to kill Christians and Jews.
So they are either following their religion or not.
If we follow Jesus Christ, do we only follow some of his teachings and discard the rest?
Well, I guess there are those who claim to follow Jesus who follow only some of his teachings and discard the rest. Because this group that attacked the Jews on the subway claimed to be Christians, followers of Jesus. But that doesn't mean that all Christians act this way and would do this to Jews.
You are saying that Christians attacked Jews on a subway in Egypt? Do you have a link to that?
I said they apparently claimed to be Christians. No this didn't happen in Egypt. It happened in NY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlwc0mE0lCU
psyop
grade B acting, too.
Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on September 26, 2012, 09:30:39 AM
Consider how the days of creation were evening and morning. It wasn't until sometime during the evening and morning of the 6th period that the Image of God was made, male and female. The evening of the 6th day was before the time of brightness. There is no record of an evening between the emergence of the Image of God and the 7th day of rest, the time after the finishing of God's works, corresponding perhaps to the Millennial Age.
Yet the dipSINsationalists preach the worst and darkest night ever known is right before the Millennium. Then, they say, the devil will take over. They also miss the truth that God deserves and will have a victorious people upon whom His name is written. God will rise up as in the days He delivered His people from Egypt. He will restore His great name in the eyes of the nations, much as He did in days of yore.
In these days The Messiah has distributed Himself into billions of people living all over the Earth through whom He is present and breathing. Out of our mouths, each of which is His mouth, there proceeds a sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.
Hi reFORMer,
Am very interested in what you are saying. I am curious as to how you see the time frame from here on? Do you believe that Jesus will return in the future? If not what will happen as far as the resurrection, will there be one? If not, will everything continue as it is without end?
Scripture speaks not of "days," but, of "a day" of resurrection:
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
How do we reconcile that with the common idea there are two? Do they happen at the same time?
Something I lean to is the 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel were those who went into the city and showed themselves that Matthew says were raised when Jesus raised from the dead. Is the other mention of 144,000 in Revelation mean they are a separate group? Could they be "from every tribe and tongue and people and nation who are victorious, "The Overcomers" of the days transitioning into the Millennial Age of Tabernacles? Bill Britton thought the second reference were those from the other side of the veil, the dead who rise first. I wonder if there are degrees of entrance into the incorruptible life (which must accompany immortality.)
As for Jesus "returning," how many comings can we number after He left? Steven, Paul, were there others He appeared to? Across the last couple of millennia He has come to many. Where do we put the place of what is popularly called a 2nd coming? Is that the advent of the Holy Spirit, something He said is better than His Adamic presence with us. He did say He would return even as He left. I wonder if leaving by ascension parallels His coming to be present with us in our ascension. After raising from the dead He didn't appear to the rest of the world, neither to Israel. He appeared to those He chose. Is there a parallel in these days? Who walks in the heavenlies to know of those coming into immortality in our times?
As I understand it there is a greater manifestation of the Lord after the Millennium. We are part of what is sitting on the great white throne. Jesus said so to The Overcomers.
What is next in God's plan according to our partaking of Him in the Feasts is The Barley Harvest. The word for barley in Hebrew means "beard." The wisps that stand up over the head of grain are called "whiskers" in English. You don't have beards or whiskers unless you are mature. Barley was two or three handfuls for a handful of wheat. It was considered animal food, or food for the poor. The harvest of it began the three parts of Tabernacles. It's not a specific day on the calendar. When it reacts to fire something like popcorn, not just being burnt up, but with enough substance to be parched, or roasted, then it is proclaimed from the temple as begun.
A lowly people, those in Christ's finishing work, the mature: these begin to enter into things pertaining to immortality. They will grow in influence, deciding the course of things among the sons of men and none can stop them by any means. As in the days of the manifestation of the son of man, these many sons will stun the world with the love of God as they come into manifestation. Those trying to oppose this from happening will probably cause trouble, a tribulation of sorts. But this change must occur and it cannot be prevented. Things are certainly not going to continue as is without end.
Will there be billions of years as present day scientists tend to propose? Will one, or as is more likely, two or more of us arriving be the temple of God for innumerable beings in innumerable worlds throughout the Universe? Is it possible God will wrap it all up quickly, soon after the week of thousands of years? Or maybe there's an end after another 35 or 36 thousand years, what's left of the promise of a thousand generations (40 years each) which was made to Abraham? We will probably be for ever developing in the form and similitude of God.
Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
I do believe that a lot of prophecy has been fulfilled. I use to didn't see things as I do now. I thought most of prophecy was still in the future but have changed my mind.
I believe in Matt. 24 Jesus was addressing the generation at that time and not far into the future. I think he would have said "that generation" not "this generation" if he had been talking about the future.
CHB
"This" or "that" is in English. It is just "generation" or, "the generation" in Greek. With (articular) or without an article (anarthous) or both? I don't want to go look for now. These bits, as well as bigger bites are the kind of things I think it would be great to search out together rather than pompous swellings we can be guilty of, as if we really knew what is the course of future events. God has made known some things. I don't mean this fatalistically, but it's up to the Lord if we enter into a fuller understanding ahead of time. Those who seek shall find, who asks receives and who knocks, it shall be opened unto them. However, I don't think stirring in things that've already happened, pronouncing it as revealing the future clarifies anybody's understanding of the future or current events.
Like the destruction of the Great Whore in Revelation 18, that's what Isaiah calls Jerusalem. Was it destroyed in 70 AD? Is it to more completely happen in the future, possibly in the days coming upon us? What is the use of these words to symbolize things in our spiritual life?
Are you acquainted with
Revelation: Four Views: A Parallel Commentary by Steven Gregg? He puts Preterist, Historicist, Futurists, and Symbolist (or, Ideal) side by side in four columns. It's a start; but, much greater detail would be appreciated. I understand that in
The Episcopalian Commentary series from around the beginning of the 20th Century the one on Revelation by Lee also includes other views. I'm not saying any or all the views are what God may want us to understand; but we can at least try to do our homework. I know certain portions He seems to have opened to me.
Mat 24:34 interlinear
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat24.pdf
AMEN I-AM-sayING to-YOU NOT NO MAY-BE-BESIDE-COMING THE generation this TILL EVER ALL these MAY-BE-BECOMING
Quote from: reFORMer on September 27, 2012, 08:15:13 AM
Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on September 26, 2012, 09:30:39 AM
Consider how the days of creation were evening and morning. It wasn't until sometime during the evening and morning of the 6th period that the Image of God was made, male and female. The evening of the 6th day was before the time of brightness. There is no record of an evening between the emergence of the Image of God and the 7th day of rest, the time after the finishing of God's works, corresponding perhaps to the Millennial Age.
Yet the dipSINsationalists preach the worst and darkest night ever known is right before the Millennium. Then, they say, the devil will take over. They also miss the truth that God deserves and will have a victorious people upon whom His name is written. God will rise up as in the days He delivered His people from Egypt. He will restore His great name in the eyes of the nations, much as He did in days of yore.
In these days The Messiah has distributed Himself into billions of people living all over the Earth through whom He is present and breathing. Out of our mouths, each of which is His mouth, there proceeds a sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.
Hi reFORMer,
Am very interested in what you are saying. I am curious as to how you see the time frame from here on? Do you believe that Jesus will return in the future? If not what will happen as far as the resurrection, will there be one? If not, will everything continue as it is without end?
Scripture speaks not of "days," but, of "a day" of resurrection:
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
How do we reconcile that with the common idea there are two? Do they happen at the same time?
Something I lean to is the 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel were those who went into the city and showed themselves that Matthew says were raised when Jesus raised from the dead. Is the other mention of 144,000 in Revelation mean they are a separate group? Could they be "from every tribe and tongue and people and nation who are victorious, "The Overcomers" of the days transitioning into the Millennial Age of Tabernacles? Bill Britton thought the second reference were those from the other side of the veil, the dead who rise first. I wonder if there are degrees of entrance into the incorruptible life (which must accompany immortality.)
As for Jesus "returning," how many comings can we number after He left? Steven, Paul, were there others He appeared to? Across the last couple of millennia He has come to many. Where do we put the place of what is popularly called a 2nd coming? Is that the advent of the Holy Spirit, something He said is better than His Adamic presence with us. He did say He would return even as He left. I wonder if leaving by ascension parallels His coming to be present with us in our ascension. After raising from the dead He didn't appear to the rest of the world, neither to Israel. He appeared to those He chose. Is there a parallel in these days? Who walks in the heavenlies to know of those coming into immortality in our times?
As I understand it there is a greater manifestation of the Lord after the Millennium. We are part of what is sitting on the great white throne. Jesus said so to The Overcomers.
What is next in God's plan according to our partaking of Him in the Feasts is The Barley Harvest. The word for barley in Hebrew means "beard." The wisps that stand up over the head of grain are called "whiskers" in English. You don't have beards or whiskers unless you are mature. Barley was two or three handfuls for a handful of wheat. It was considered animal food, or food for the poor. The harvest of it began the three parts of Tabernacles. It's not a specific day on the calendar. When it reacts to fire something like popcorn, not just being burnt up, but with enough substance to be parched, or roasted, then it is proclaimed from the temple as begun.
A lowly people, those in Christ's finishing work, the mature: these begin to enter into things pertaining to immortality. They will grow in influence, deciding the course of things among the sons of men and none can stop them by any means. As in the days of the manifestation of the son of man, these many sons will stun the world with the love of God as they come into manifestation. Those trying to oppose this from happening will probably cause trouble, a tribulation of sorts. But this change must occur and it cannot be prevented. Things are certainly not going to continue as is without end.
Will there be billions of years as present day scientists tend to propose? Will one, or as is more likely, two or more of us arriving be the temple of God for innumerable beings in innumerable worlds throughout the Universe? Is it possible God will wrap it all up quickly, soon after the week of thousands of years? Or maybe there's an end after another 35 or 36 thousand years, what's left of the promise of a thousand generations (40 years each) which was made to Abraham? We will probably be for ever developing in the form and similitude of God.
Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
I do believe that a lot of prophecy has been fulfilled. I use to didn't see things as I do now. I thought most of prophecy was still in the future but have changed my mind.
I believe in Matt. 24 Jesus was addressing the generation at that time and not far into the future. I think he would have said "that generation" not "this generation" if he had been talking about the future.
CHB
"This" or "that" is in English. It is just "generation" or, "the generation" in Greek. With (articular) or without an article (anarthous) or both? I don't want to go look for now. These bits, as well as bigger bites are the kind of things I think it would be great to search out together rather than pompous swellings we can be guilty of, as if we really knew what is the course of future events. God has made known some things. I don't mean this fatalistically, but it's up to the Lord if we enter into a fuller understanding ahead of time. Those who seek shall find, who asks receives and who knocks, it shall be opened unto them. However, I don't think stirring in things that've already happened, pronouncing it as revealing the future clarifies anybody's understanding of the future or current events.
Like the destruction of the Great Whore in Revelation 18, that's what Isaiah calls Jerusalem. Was it destroyed in 70 AD? Is it to more completely happen in the future, possibly in the days coming upon us? What is the use of these words to symbolize things in our spiritual life?
Are you acquainted with Revelation: Four Views: A Parallel Commentary by Steven Gregg? He puts Preterist, Historicist, Futurists, and Symbolist (or, Ideal) side by side in four columns. It's a start; but, much greater detail would be appreciated. I understand that in The Episcopalian Commentary series from around the beginning of the 20th Century the one on Revelation by Lee also includes other views. I'm not saying any or all the views are what God may want us to understand; but we can at least try to do our homework. I know certain portions He seems to have opened to me.
Thank you so much reFORMer, I appreciate your response.
There are so many different views of things that people think will happen in the future and most try to apply the things that have already happened to the future or themselves.
I pray that God would give us all a better understanding of these things.
I will check out the information you gave me.
CHB
The Shi'ite Crescent=Lebanon [Hezbollah], Syria, Iran, and Iraq [60% Shi'ite]
Muslim Brotherhood [Sunni]=Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, fighting in Syria [all from Arab Spring]
Muslim Brotherhood is preparing to overthrow Jordan.
Turkey = Sunni
The Christians of Egypt are being terribly persecuted. He calls it a 'holocaust'. Ten million Coptic Christians being terminated under muslim brotherhood.
Same thing will happen in Syria if the Muslim Brotherhood take over there.
If the Christians leave Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon, the economies will collapse, and then the muslims will come here because they will be starving. [In an earlier show, he said if Obama is re-elected, he will allow immigration here of 100 million muslims.]
The Russians seem to be leaving Syria. They are pulling out of the region.
He thinks a deal is being made to divide up Iran among the super powers.
The god of One World Government is mammon [money].
Deut 11:24
The borders of Israel will go from Lebanon to the desert they walked through for 40 years [Arabia].
24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.
He predicts the Arab Spring will come to Saudi Arabia. Muslim Brotherhood and Al Queda will start blowing up the oil wells. West will take over oil wells and Israel will be told to move into Saudi Arabia to manage them.
http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/videos/tv-program/
I submit....to all the modern day seers.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but a Jew is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 2:28 For the true Jew is not the man who is simply a Jew outwardly, and true circumcision is not that which is outward and bodily.
Rom 2:29 But the true Jew is one inwardly, and true circumcision is heart-circumcision--not literal, but spiritual; and such people receive praise not from men, but from God.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, the pleasure indeed of my heart, and my supplication that is to God for Israel, is--for salvation;
Rom 10:2 for I bear them testimony that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge,
Rom 10:3 for not knowing the righteousness of God, and their own righteousness seeking to establish, to the righteousness of God they did not submit.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, the longing of my heart, and my prayer to God, on behalf of my countrymen is for their salvation.
Rom 10:2 For I bear witness that they possess an enthusiasm for God, but it is an unenlightened enthusiasm.
Rom 10:3 Ignorant of the righteousness which God provides and building their hopes upon a righteousness of their own, they have refused submission to God's righteousness.
Gal 3:28 there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;
Gal 3:29 and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise--heirs.
Gal.328 In Him the distinctions between Jew and Gentile, slave and free man, male and female, disappear; you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are indeed true descendants of Abraham, and are heirs in fulfilment of the promise.
Col 3:10 and having put on the new, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the image of Him who did create him;
Col 3:11 where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, servant, freeman--but the all and in all--Christ.
Col 3:10 and have clothed yourselves with the new self which is being remoulded into full knowledge so as to become like Him who created it.
Col 3:11 In that new creation there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free man, but Christ is everything and is in all of us.
With this witness, please tell me how all this "prophecy" that is offered, taken from TV and Internet news, and religious Bible interpretation, as to what is happening over in Israel and the middle east, can be taken seriously? Within Sound doctrine.
It all "seems" to be spliced together with what is writen in the Revelation of Jesus Christ and biblical theory's, speculation, assumption, and guessing.
Yes, it is written, Israel are the chosen people, but GOD did a NEW thing. Do the Jews in Israel believe in Jesus Christ? NO. From what I gather the "chosen people" are of THE SEED...those who are born of the spirit and are In Christ Jesus. That was the Gospel Jesus preached...the kingdom of God.
A long time ago I realizes that God does not watch the news. The Bible is a spiritual book, believers-true worshipers are working in/worship in Spirit and Truth.
Gen 26:24 and Jehovah appeareth unto him during that night, and saith, `I am the God of Abraham thy father, fear not, for I am with thee, and have blessed thee, and have multiplied thy seed, because of Abraham My servant;'
Gal 3:16 (Now the promises were given to Abraham and to his seed. God did not say "and to seeds," as if speaking of many, but "and to your seed," since He spoke of only one--and this is Christ.)
Gal 3:17 I mean that the Covenant which God had already formally made is not abrogated by the Law which was given four hundred and thirty years later--so as to annul the promise.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes through obedience to Law, it no longer comes because of a promise. But, as a matter of fact, God has granted it to Abraham in fulfilment of a promise.
Gal 3:28 In Him the distinctions between Jew and Gentile, slave and free man, male and female, disappear; you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are indeed true descendants of Abraham, and are heirs in fulfilment of the promise.
Is this not OUR warfare...2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Eph 6:12 For ours is not a conflict with mere flesh and blood, but with the despotisms, the empires, the forces that control and govern this dark world--the spiritual hosts of evil arrayed against us in the heavenly warfare.
Eph 6:13 Therefore put on the complete armour of God, so that you may be able to stand your ground on the day of battle, and, having fought to the end, to remain victors on the field.
The disciples go privately to Jesus and ask him--what will be the sign of your return and of the end of the age?
Jesus points them to Daniel 11 and commands them to read and understand it.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Mat 24
So we go to Daniel 11. We see in Dan 11:21 the rise to power of a vile man.
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
And, in Dan 11:31, we see that this man will lead an invading army into Jerusalem. And, it's here that we see the phrase that Jesus pointed us to.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
If we go to Dan 12:1, we see the words Jesus used about a great tribulation.
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
Jesus, in fact, tells us in Mat 24, there will never be such a tribulation again in all of human history. So this is a one time event in its severity, so severe that were it not cut short no flesh would survive.
In Daniel 12, we are told that the minute that army enters Jerusalem, start counting.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
The abominable army will hold the city for 3.5 years, and those who survive for 45 more days will be blessed.
And, again, in Dan 12 we see that this time of the great tribulation will end with a resurrection.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt
"To say this has already been fulfilled is dangerous. It robs the church of the only compass she has in the darkest storm she will ever go through. It robs urgency from our spirit."
The primary sign of the end of the age and the beginning of Jacob's trouble is the invasion of Judea and the destruction of Jerusalem. This is prophecy. It hasn't happened yet. There will be those in the church who will turn their backs on Israel. We see it happening now. Peter says there will be many scoffers. Paul tells us there will be a falling away and love will grow cold. But, Daniel also tells us that God will raise up a remnant of the church who will stand with the Jews and against the Antichrist during this last 3.5 years of the age.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. Dan 11
As a PARTIAL Preterist, that's the best I've ever seen this "The disciples go privately to Jesus and ask him--what will be the sign of your return and of the end of the age?" and Daniel pulled together. No matter what one's perspective, IMO, this is a very good discussion point. :thumbsup:
Daniel is done. Nada. Fini. Nothing to do with today, over
Know one here seems able to make the leap of understanding that all your work is being done from a book that IS THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, in you or us, or all who will overcome and hear. Not a futuristic time. He is working all this out in YOU, can you hear?The middle east and Israel with it's turmoil, is being worked out for the benefit of those, in the world, not for those who are of the world. There is a great difference.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches
After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
"Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
(Act 1:3-8)
Get the anointing. Be witnesses. It is not for you to kno the times. If you are filled with the Holy Spirit you will be useful, and ready for WHATEVER comes, WHENEVER it comes.
If anyone knows God and is strong, it will be because they have been "strengthened with might by His spirit in their inner man"(Eph)- only then can they do exploits.
The kingdom of God is coming in the power of the Spirit and it will be the manifestation of it in the house of God that will provoke the end times, as the dragon sends forth the flood to consume the man-child who comes forth from the woman clothed with the sun. She is the sign of the end times as surely as anything else.
Get in the womb, travail as if awaiting birth, In the secret place of the most high the overcomers wrestle like Jacob for the blessing- the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
"Forgetting those things that are behind I press on toward the mark of the prize of the High call fo God in CHrist Jesus.
Jerusalem may be destroyed in 10 years or in 110 years, but "Today, if you hear His voice harden not your hearts....."
He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
(Luk 24:46-49)
Yield.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
--Rom 11
Pulitzer or Nobel?
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
(Mat 25:1-13)
Come Quickly Lord Jesus.
Oil for sale! Get it while its is yet day! Oil for sale! The night comes when no virgin can buy oil for their lamp! Oil for sale!
DON'T FORGET ESTER,MOLLY...LET A SEARCH BE MADE FOR BEAUTIFUL YOUNG VIRGINS
FOR THE KING.....
IF I HAVE FOUND FAVOUR WITH YOU O'KING AND IF IT PLEASES YOUR MAJESTY
GRANT ME MY LIFE..THIS IS MY PETITION, AND SPARE MY PEOPLE THIS IS MY REQUEST
FOR I AND MY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SOLD FOR DESTRUCTION AND SLAUGHTER AND
ANNHILATION........IF WE HAD MERELY BEEN SOLD AS SLAVES I WOULD HAVE KEPT QUIET
WHO IS HE..WHERE IS THE MAN WHO HAS DARED DO SUCH THING
IF YOU DO NOT KNOW MOST BEAUTIFUL OF WOMEN FOLLOW THE TRACKS OF THE SHEEP
AND GRAZE YOUR YOUNG GOATS BY THE TENT OF THE SHEPHERD
ESTER IS A PICTURE OF THE BRIDE OF THE kING OF kINGS...THE MOST BEAUTIFUL
OF WOMEN IS THE CHURCH HE HAS BEEN MAKING SPOTLESS..THE FIVE WISE VIRGINS
THE ONLY DAUGHTER OF HER MOTHER[JERUSALEM ABOVE]
rEV 16;18 ..
OUR GOD IS A SHAKER AND A MOVER
Quote from: sheila on September 28, 2012, 08:13:33 AM
DON'T FORGET ESTER,MOLLY...LET A SEARCH BE MADE FOR BEAUTIFUL YOUNG VIRGINS
FOR THE KING.....
IF I HAVE FOUND FAVOUR WITH YOU O'KING AND IF IT PLEASES YOUR MAJESTY
GRANT ME MY LIFE..THIS IS MY PETITION, AND SPARE MY PEOPLE THIS IS MY REQUEST
FOR I AND MY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SOLD FOR DESTRUCTION AND SLAUGHTER AND
ANNHILATION........IF WE HAD MERELY BEEN SOLD AS SLAVES I WOULD HAVE KEPT QUIET
WHO IS HE..WHERE IS THE MAN WHO HAS DARED DO SUCH THING
IF YOU DO NOT KNOW MOST BEAUTIFUL OF WOMEN FOLLOW THE TRACKS OF THE SHEEP
AND GRAZE YOUR YOUNG GOATS BY THE TENT OF THE SHEPHERD
ESTER IS A PICTURE OF THE BRIDE OF THE kING OF kINGS...THE MOST BEAUTIFUL
OF WOMEN IS THE CHURCH HE HAS BEEN MAKING SPOTLESS..THE FIVE WISE VIRGINS
THE ONLY DAUGHTER OF HER MOTHER[JERUSALEM ABOVE]
rEV 16;18 ..
OUR GOD IS A SHAKER AND A MOVER
Vashti made her own feast (the Rapture,) not coming when the king called for her. She thought she'd disappear to her own chambers rather than be on display as the king wanted. Haddasah (as Ishtar to the Gentiles) celebrated Tabernacles with the king.
:iagree:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 28, 2012, 07:36:07 AM
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
(Mat 25:1-13)
Come Quickly Lord Jesus.
Oil for sale! Get it while its is yet day! Oil for sale! The night comes when no virgin can buy oil for their lamp! Oil for sale!
There are ten virgins, the oil, the voice in the middle of the night, and the bridegroom.
"And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him."
Who will be this prophetic voice? Those who see and grant others to see the bridegroom coming to be present.
10 is the number of witness. 10 make up a minyam. There are carnal witness in the world and there are spiritual witnesses of God. For those who are born of Adam into the world there are 5 carnal senses. For those born of God into the realm that is God, where His way is all, there are 5 spiritual or extended senses that function by the Holy Spirit. This is the extra oil. More life, life beyond Adam who is mortal. Enter in.
AWESOME POST......THANK YOU!!
Amen, and ALL the virgins could hear the cry. All of them were awakened by it. But only half of them could follow all the way to the feast. "The Bridegroom Cometh!"
Come Quickly Lord Jesus!
We speak a wisdom among the mature....
God has revealed them to us by the Spirit.....
The carnal man does not receive the deep things of God for it is foolishness to him, he is still under the heavens, under the elemental principles, needing to be taught again the foundations of the oracles of God.
The carnal man is unable to follow when the prophetic word speaks, COME, when the Spirit and the Bride say COME...... Come to the feast, the wedding feast where the BRIDE is UNITED TO THE LAMB OF GOD...... He is calling us to His footstool, to be one at His table, in His house, but who can hear it? And of those who hear, who has the oil to carry them outside the camp, through the night to where there is no need of sun or moon because the God is the light and the Lamb is the Lamp in the midst of it?
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2012, 06:40:36 AM
The disciples go privately to Jesus and ask him--what will be the sign of your return and of the end of the age?
Jesus points them to Daniel 11 and commands them to read and understand it.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Mat 24
So we go to Daniel 11. We see in Dan 11:21 the rise to power of a vile man.
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
The person described here is easily identified with Antiochus IV Epiphanes, king of Syria and Mesopotamia in the second century BC. He also ruled over the area of Jerusalem. He tried to impose the hellenistic culture and pagan worship by force, and made it illegal to practice the Mosaic law, or keep the sabbath day, practice circumcision, observe holy days, etc. In his days the Jerusalem temple was dedicated to Zeus.
In Daniel's prophecies, Antiochus IV and the events during his reign were not a type of a future human who would do similar things in the earthly Jerusalem, but they were typical of the spiritual assault on the church, the heavenly Jerusalem, which occurs in the present age.
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2012, 06:40:36 AM
And, in Dan 11:31, we see that this man will lead an invading army into Jerusalem. And, it's here that we see the phrase that Jesus pointed us to.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
If we go to Dan 12:1, we see the words Jesus used about a great tribulation.
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
Jesus, in fact, tells us in Mat 24, there will never be such a tribulation again in all of human history. So this is a one time event in its severity, so severe that were it not cut short no flesh would survive.
In Matt. 24:15-16 Jesus says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"
No one can "see" the abomination that Antiochus IV set up, which has long disappeared. It is thought to be an image of Zeus. But Jesus is referring to another kind of abomination, IMO. It is the spiritual abomination that has been present in the church since the first century, represented in various ways in several prophecies of Daniel. There are allusions to it in chapters 7, 8, 9, 11, and 12. One has to take all these prophecies into account, as well as the words of Jesus, and prophecies in Revelation, to "see" the abomination, and understand it. In Daniel 7 it is the "little horn" of the fourth beast which makes war against the saints and overcomes them. Its "eyes like the eyes of a man" seem to represent a human viewpoint, as opposed to the divine one. In Daniel 8 it is represented by a "king of fierce countenance" who fights against Christ. But in John's epistles it is called the spirit of antichrist. It is not a human individual.
Jesus also said, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." [Matt. 16:25] Therefore he was not telling people to "flee into the mountains" to save their own lives in a physical sense, when he referred to "seeing" the abomination of desolation. The mountains he meant are symbols of the promises of God. The kingdom of God is called a "mountain." The blessings Jacob received were compared to the "everlasting hills." [Gen. 49:26] David said, "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains." [Psa. 36:6] These are the mountains we should flee to,
i.e. God's
promises.Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2012, 06:40:36 AM
In Daniel 12, we are told that the minute that army enters Jerusalem, start counting.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
The abominable army will hold the city for 3.5 years, and those who survive for 45 more days will be blessed.
1,335 days is not 3.5 years. Neither is 1,290 days. In 3.5 years there are about 1,278 days, or, if counting by lunar months, 1,270 days. That includes one year of 13 months. It is impossible to get 1,290 days to fit three and a half years in any calendar. They must therefore be understood as representing not a natural three and a half years, but a symbolic period. The same applies to 1,335 days.
William Hendriksen wrote: "The expression 'a time, and times, and half a time' occurs first in the book of Daniel 7:25; 12:7. It is the period of the antichrist. John emphasizes the fact that the spirit of the antichrist is in the world already. (I Jn. 4:3). In the Apocalypse this period of three years and a half refers to the entire gospel age. It is followed by the 'three days and a half' during which 'the beast that comes up out of the abyss'–the antichristian world in its final phase–will kill the witnesses and will silence the voice of the gospel (cf. Rev. 11:7 ff.)." [William Hendriksen. More Than Conquerors: An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation. Baker Books, 1998. p. 144.]
This is the right approach to the time, and times, and a half in Daniel, IMO. It is a symbol representing the whole age of the church, or a portion of it. It is not three and a half literal years. Everything in Daniel's prophecies is finished, when it ends. [Dan. 12:7] Therefore it could not have occurred in the first century as preterists claim. The following chart illustrates the various numbers associated with the time, and times, and a half.
(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/D70/timeline1.png)
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2012, 06:40:36 AM
And, again, in Dan 12 we see that this time of the great tribulation will end with a resurrection.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt
"To say this has already been fulfilled is dangerous. It robs the church of the only compass she has in the darkest storm she will ever go through. It robs urgency from our spirit."
The primary sign of the end of the age and the beginning of Jacob's trouble is the invasion of Judea and the destruction of Jerusalem. This is prophecy. It hasn't happened yet. There will be those in the church who will turn their backs on Israel. We see it happening now. Peter says there will be many scoffers. Paul tells us there will be a falling away and love will grow cold. But, Daniel also tells us that God will raise up a remnant of the church who will stand with the Jews and against the Antichrist during this last 3.5 years of the age.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. Dan 11
Applying the prophecies discussed above to the earthly Jerusalem is spurious. It disregards the New Testament scriptures that refer to Jerusalem as "the Jerusalem which is above" and "heavenly Jerusalem." [Gal. 4:26; Heb. 12:22] When Jesus ascended to the throne of his Father, Jerusalem was raised up too, as foretold in Isa. 2:2. It is now "the city of the great king." [Matt. 5:35] In the present age, the nations flow into the church, not the earthly Jerusalem.
The earthly Jerusalem is no longer in view in the prophecies, as Jesus told the Samaritan woman.
John 4
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Doug
Indeed, Daniel 11 not only tells us that Jerusalem will be invaded, we are told why: rage against God for creating a covenant with a group of people and rage against God's covenant people for receiving that unmerited grace. Four times this is mentioned by the last two books of Daniel.
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. Dan 11
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. Dan 11
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: Dan 11
and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Dan 12
We see this rage and jealousy, against God's chosen people and against God himself for choosing them, from the beginning, when God favored Abel over Cain. The result was murder.
And, when Jesus addresses the Pharisees in Mat 23, he accuses them of the same rage and jealousy as Cain, and tells them its source is their father, Satan. This rage always seeks the same end, murder. Satan hates God's people from the beginning and seeks to destroy them.
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Mat 23
It is Satan himself who rages against God's chosen, as the covenant is announced for the first time in Genesis 3--.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3
It is this same rage against God that murdered Jesus.
In the same way, we will see this same rage at the end of the story, the final indignation against God for giving his people land through an everlasting covenant. How dare they possess this land? What did they do to deserve it? Why did God favor them and not us? And, they seek with the same blood vendetta that Cain exhibited to even the score, an age old battle between brothers, one who receives unmerited grace and one who seeks to take it for his own.
But, this is a battle between God and Satan, a battle in the heavenlies, spilling over onto the earth.
That which none of the Rulers of this world understood, for if they had known it, they would not have crucified The Lord of Glory. 1 Cor 2:8
Quote from: DougThe person described here is easily identified with Antiochus IV Epiphanes, king of Syria and Mesopotamia in the second century BC. He also ruled over the area of Jerusalem. He tried to impose the hellenistic culture and pagan worship by force, and made it illegal to practice the Mosaic law, or keep the sabbath day, practice circumcision, observe holy days, etc. In his days the Jerusalem temple was dedicated to Zeus.
Really? Where was the resurrection at the end of the story?
1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
--Daniel 12
Daniel tells us repeatedly, and Jesus confirms, that all these things are happening at the end of the age.
Quote from: reFORMer on September 28, 2012, 08:23:26 AM
Quote from: sheila on September 28, 2012, 08:13:33 AM
DON'T FORGET ESTER,MOLLY...LET A SEARCH BE MADE FOR BEAUTIFUL YOUNG VIRGINS
FOR THE KING.....
IF I HAVE FOUND FAVOUR WITH YOU O'KING AND IF IT PLEASES YOUR MAJESTY
GRANT ME MY LIFE..THIS IS MY PETITION, AND SPARE MY PEOPLE THIS IS MY REQUEST
FOR I AND MY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SOLD FOR DESTRUCTION AND SLAUGHTER AND
ANNHILATION........IF WE HAD MERELY BEEN SOLD AS SLAVES I WOULD HAVE KEPT QUIET
WHO IS HE..WHERE IS THE MAN WHO HAS DARED DO SUCH THING
IF YOU DO NOT KNOW MOST BEAUTIFUL OF WOMEN FOLLOW THE TRACKS OF THE SHEEP
AND GRAZE YOUR YOUNG GOATS BY THE TENT OF THE SHEPHERD
ESTER IS A PICTURE OF THE BRIDE OF THE kING OF kINGS...THE MOST BEAUTIFUL
OF WOMEN IS THE CHURCH HE HAS BEEN MAKING SPOTLESS..THE FIVE WISE VIRGINS
THE ONLY DAUGHTER OF HER MOTHER[JERUSALEM ABOVE]
rEV 16;18 ..
OUR GOD IS A SHAKER AND A MOVER
Vashti made her own feast (the Rapture,) not coming when the king called for her. She thought she'd disappear to her own chambers rather than be on display as the king wanted. Haddasah (as Ishtar to the Gentiles) celebrated Tabernacles with the king.
Wow guys... thank you! Never saw that before, beautiful!!
Quote from: Doug1,335 days is not 3.5 years. Neither is 1,290 days.
Close enough 1290/365=3.5342
But, since he gives you days, just count them.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year - Similar
In the Julian calendar, the average length of a year is 365.25 days.
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2012, 02:05:41 PM
Quote from: DougThe person described here is easily identified with Antiochus IV Epiphanes, king of Syria and Mesopotamia in the second century BC. He also ruled over the area of Jerusalem. He tried to impose the hellenistic culture and pagan worship by force, and made it illegal to practice the Mosaic law, or keep the sabbath day, practice circumcision, observe holy days, etc. In his days the Jerusalem temple was dedicated to Zeus.
Really? Where was the resurrection at the end of the story?
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
--Daniel 12
Daniel tells us repeatedly, and Jesus confirms, that all these things are happening at the end of the age.
The prophecy describes events in the future from Daniel's time, that were accurately fulfilled, up to the days of Antiochus IV. The last section of the prophecy including chapter 12 applies to events of a spiritual nature in the church age. The resurrection is at the end of the age.
Charles H. H. Wright (1836-1909) provided the following commentary. [Charles H. H. Wright,
Daniel and his prophecies. Williams and Norgate, London. 1906.]
[begin quote]
p. 279
Modern critics are right in interpreting in some way or other the entire chapter, from ver. 21 to the end, as having more or less distinct reference to Antiochus and the times following. It is absurd to interpret these verses, with Jerome (after Hippolytus and other Church Fathers), of the imaginary Antichrist of the latter days. Jerome is, indeed, positive on that point. So far as ver. 20 inclusive he states that he is in accord in the main with Porphyry as to the interpretation of the chapter. But of the following twenty-four verses, as well as of portions of ch. xii., he says: "Nostri autem haec omnia de Antichristo prophetari arbitrantur, qui ultimo tempore futurus est." Jerome is, however, not consistent. For in the after verses he explains many events as fulfilled in the history of Antiochus Epiphanes. Pusey agrees in the main with Jerome's interpretation. It is extraordinary to maintain that so much should be told in the chapter of Alexander the Great and the kings of Syria who followed him, and that just at the very point when the prophecy begins really to touch the interests of the holy nation, it should break off and pass over to the days immediately preceding the Second Advent of Christ. Such an interpretation will never satisfy real Biblical students. Nor is the theory of a double interpretation of prophecy satisfactory. It is incongruous to regard a prophecy first as predicting in detail events which were to occur prior to the beginning of Messianic days, and then as predicting a second set of events to take place at the end of the world. Such a theory may have been excusable in the loose interpretations of bygone days; it is indefensible in the present age of critical interpretation.
It will be remembered that peace was concluded between Antiochus the Great, king of Syria, and Ptolemy V. Epiphanes, of Egypt, on the basis that the Egyptian monarch should marry Cleopatra, daughter of Antiochus, and that the provinces of Ccelo-Syria and Palestine should be assigned to Cleopatra as her dowry. The Syrian troops never actually evacuated those provinces, although the tribute of those lands was for a time divided between the kings of Syria and Egypt. Ptolemy V., however, was not willing permanently to put up with such a state of affairs, and had commenced preparations for another war with Syria to recover those lost provinces, when he was carried off by poison, B.C. 181. His son, Ptolemy VI. Philometor, then a mere child, succeeded to the throne of Egypt, and Cleopatra acted as the regent of the kingdom. That able woman contrived to keep peace with Syria for nearly eight years. But after her death in B.C. 173, the ministers and guardians of the child-king, namely, Eulaeus and Lenaeus, declared war against Antiochus Epiphanes in order to recover the much-coveted territories.
This led to Antiochus Epiphanes first campaign against Egypt, which proved a brilliant success. The Egyptian forces were overthrown in B.C. 170 in the decisive battle of Pelusium. The Syrian armies overran Egypt, and penetrated as far as Memphis. The youthful Egyptian monarch was either taken captive by Antiochus, or surrendered up to that king from motives of policy. Antiochus, actuated by similar motives, treated the boy-king ostensibly with great kindness, and won him over for a season to his side.
Such are the events, in the opinion of the majority of critics, detailed in Dan. xi. 22, 23: "And the arms of a flood shall be swept away from before him, and they shall be shivered in pieces, and also a prince of covenant (i.e. a prince confederate with him). And from the time of entering into alliance with him he shall work craftily, and shall go up, and become strong with a small nation."
There is here the ring of genuine prophetic language. In Isa. viii. 7, 8, the invading army of Assyria is described as a mighty river overflowing its banks, and sweeping away everything by the force of its mighty waters. The phrase is employed earlier in this chapter of Daniel (ver. 10) in the same signification, and again recurs in ver. 25. The expression cannot be used of an army acting on the defensive, and borne down in flight, like the Egyptian army at the battle of Pelusium. Antiochus, having mobilised his army with great rapidity, was able to invade Egypt before the Egyptian forces were able to cross the frontiers. The Syrian forces might well be compared to an overwhelming deluge, although such a comparison does not suit the armies of Egypt.
...
p. 283
Verse 24 continues the general narrative of the doings of Antiochus Epiphanes in Egypt. "Suddenly he shall even come into the fattest places of a province, and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor the fathers of his fathers; spoil and plunder and riches shall he scatter among them, and against fortresses shall he devise machinations; and for a time" (ver. 24). Ewald explains "the fattest places of a province" to mean Galilee or Lower Egypt. The expression is peculiar, whether interpreted of one or the other.
The way in which Antiochus acted differently from all his predecessors was in plundering the province in order to lavish gifts upon his friends. That feature of his character is expressly noticed in i Macc. iii. 20. It is also alluded to by Polybius, while Livy, who had a mean opinion of Antiochus character and abilities in general, confesses: "In two great and honourable points his disposition was truly that becoming a king, namely, in the gifts he bestowed upon cities, and in his worship of the gods" (lib. xli. 20).
In the closing words of ver. 24 we light again upon a genuinely Danielic sentence, "and that for a season" The phrase is of peculiar interest, not only as indicating an upward glance of the prophet heavenwards, while predicting the days of darkness, but also as bringing the paragraph (consisting of verses 22, 23, and 24) to a close. The history of the invasion of Egypt by Antiochus in those verses is set forth in general terms, the same history being repeated a second time in the verses following in more detailed language. Hence it is probable that in this portion of the chapter two distinct paraphrases have been united, which would account for the peculiar character of some of the expressions employed, and serve to explain the use of phraseology not in harmony with other parts of the prophetic narrative.
Verses 25 and 26 form an excellent continuation of the history from the close of ver. 21, which seems broken in upon by the insertion of verses 22-24: "And he shall stir up his might and his courage against the king of the south [note here the resumption of the ordinary phraseology] with a great army [no mention is here made of "a small nation"], and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a great army and strong exceedingly; but he shall not stand, for they shall devise devices against him. And they that eat of his dainties shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow, and many shall fall down slain."
After the battle at Pelusium (which was the only engagement which corresponds with the descriptions in Daniel and i Macc.), Antiochus Epiphanes overran the most fertile provinces of Egypt, and got possession by fraud or force of the person of its king. The Egyptians, under the idea that Ptolemy Philometor had acted in a cowardly manner, placed his brother Physcon on the throne. Physcon, with his sister Cleopatra, retreated to the fortified city of Alexandria, the siege of which was commenced by Antiochus. The inter vention of the Romans obliged Antiochus to abandon the siege; and, troubles having broken out in Cilicia, he returned to his own dominions, not, however, before he had set up Ptolemy VII. Philometor as king over the larger part of Egypt. Philometor soon made peace with his brother Physcon. The two brothers reigned for a while as joint-kings of Egypt, and sought the help of Rome against Antiochus. Antiochus, having settled matters in Cilicia, marched once more against Egypt. His fleet was successful at Cyprus, but no allusion to that success occurs in the Book of Daniel. The kings of Egypt were unable to stem the advance of the invader, and were compelled to retire within the walls of Alexandria. There is, then, a similarity between the description given in Daniel and the first campaign of Antiochus in Egypt. The mighty armies arrayed on both sides correspond satisfactorily, the defeat of the king of Egypt, and the inundating stream of the Syrian army overwhelming the provinces of Egypt. But historians of the period do not record the treachery on the part of the Egyptian nobles alluded to in the Book of Daniel, namely, on the part of the courtiers who fed at the royal table and partook of the dainties of the king. It is possible, however, that such details might have been known to the Jewish writer, whether prophet, paraphrast, or historian. Jerome is honest enough to confess that no mention is made in history of the two kings sitting at one table, each devising mischief against the other, which is so vividly pictured in ver. 27. The LXX. and Theodotion, led probably by the want of correspondence between the prediction and the history, modified ver. 26. See Critical Commentary.
[end quote]
Doug
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2012, 02:19:57 PM
Quote from: Doug1,335 days is not 3.5 years. Neither is 1,290 days.
Close enough 1290/365=3.5342
But, since he gives you days, just count them.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year - Similar
In the Julian calendar, the average length of a year is 365.25 days.
Daniel's calendar was not the Julian one. In a Jewish year of 12 months there were about 354 days, and in a year of 13 months there were about 384 days.
Daniel's numbers make fools of those who say they refer to a
literal three and a half years. Isaiah wrote, "But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." [Isa. 28:13] This applies to them; they are snared, and fall backward, because their claims and interpretations based upon flawed assumptions are false. This applies to futurists, and preterists, IMO.
Doug
Quote from: DougThe prophecy describes events in the future from Daniel's time, that were accurately fulfilled, up to the days of Antiochus IV. The last section of the prophecy including chapter 12 applies to events of a spiritual nature in the church age. The resurrection is at the end of the age.
Daniel 12 is a continuation of Daniel 11. The events are related and sequential, just like those in Mat 24. Remember it says, AT THAT TIME.
Are you saying the resurrection referred to at the end of these events is a spiritual resurrection? some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt?
'Jesus Not Allowed': Anti-Faith Sentiment Sweeps US
By Paul Strand
CBN News Washington Sr. Correspondent
Tuesday, September 25, 2012
Could you imagine going to jail for your faith? A recent report warns that it could happen.
CBN News investigated the growing wave of hostility to Christianity in America that's led to hundreds of court cases.
No Religion Allowed
Angela Hildenbrand faced the very real possibility of going to jail for her faith. The trouble began when a federal judge ruled that no one at her Texas high school could pray or even use words like "prayer" or "amen" during the 2011 graduation ceremonies.
As class valedictorian, Hildenbrand felt God deserved the praise, even if it meant jail for her.
"I was definitely preparing myself to have to make that sort of tough decision and mentally prepare myself for what well could be coming next," she told CBN News.
Hildenbrand's case is just one of more than 640 cases of religious hostility cited in a new report by the Liberty Institute. General Counsel Jeff Mateer, who takes on many of these cases, helped put the survey together.
"The atheists and the secularists are well-organized and they're well-funded," the Liberty Institute attorney told CBN News.
"The rate of hostility to people of faith is overwhelming," he said. "It's increasing. Every day, we're getting calls."
One call involved the Veterans Administration demanding to preview Scott Rainey's prayer for a Memorial Day ceremony at Houston National Cemetery.
They told Rainey, who pastors the Living Word Church of the Nazarene in Houston, he couldn't pray "in Jesus' name."
"I have never said a prayer in my life where I didn't end it saying 'in the name of Jesus Christ I pray, amen,'" Pastor Rainey said.
Contending for the Faith
Mateer is also working to save this veteran's memorial cross in San Diego, one of several cases that could have serious national consequences if courts order their removal.
"Are we going to bulldoze all those crosses?" Mateer asked. "We're going to sandblast God from the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier?"
But Mateer says the good news is, when believers fight back, they usually win.
"You need to stand up and fight," he said. "And that's exactly what Angela did."
Just one day before Hildenbrand's graduation, an appeals court ruled she could pray and say whatever she wanted.
"I thank You for Your great love for us and for our great nation, where we are free," she prayed at her graduation. "And it's in Jesus' name I pray, amen."
Courts eventually ruled that Pastor Rainey -- and all veterans at burials -- are allowed to freely express their faith.
But there is an across-the-board assault of religious hostility, and Americans' religious liberty hangs in the balance.
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2012/September/Jesus-Not-Allowed-Anti-Faith-Sentiment-Sweeps-US/?utm_sou
And because of the abundance of evil, the love of many will grow cold.
--Mat 24:12
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2012, 03:47:12 PM
Quote from: DougThe prophecy describes events in the future from Daniel's time, that were accurately fulfilled, up to the days of Antiochus IV. The last section of the prophecy including chapter 12 applies to events of a spiritual nature in the church age. The resurrection is at the end of the age.
Daniel 12 is a continuation of Daniel 11. The events are related and sequential, just like those in Mat 24. Remember it says, AT THAT TIME.
Are you saying the resurrection referred to at the end of these events is a spiritual resurrection? some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt?
Daniel 11
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
As I understand it, the above applies mainly to the Christian church. In the prophecy, events in the time of Antiochus IV were a figure and a
type of the spiritual warfare in the future, in the Christian church, during the entire age of the church. For example, "they that understand among the people shall instruct many" refers to those who preach the gospel. And "some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end," brings the time span of the prophecy right to the end of the age, and events yet in the future, such as the resurrection mentioned in Dan 12:1.
Many Christians have "fallen" into error, and the intent is to "purge, and to make them white," similar to what we read in Revelation: "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy." [Rev. 3:4] And, speaking of the bride, John wrote, "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." [Rev. 19:8]
Daniel 11:45
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
The "glorious holy mountain" is none other than the church, the heavenly Jerusalem, and the true temple. It was "raised up" to heaven when Jesus ascended to his Father's throne after his resurrection, which fulfils Isa. 2:2. This is probably what Paul alludes to in 2 Thess. 2:3-5. It is not referring to a human individual, but a seducing spirit.
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
This is speaking of the resurrection, discussed at length in 1 Cor. 15. It corresponds also to the things described in Rev. 11:15-18.
Doug
Quote from: DougDaniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
This is speaking of the resurrection, discussed at length in 1 Cor. 15. It corresponds also to the things described in Rev. 11:15-18.
well this is also speaking of the great tribulation which Jesus talks of in Mat. 24.
So we have
1)the abomination that causes desolation standing in Jerusalem
2)Jesus cites this prophecy in Daniel, and says run for the hills when you see it
3)Then, start counting the days of the great tribulation, which both Jesus and Daniel cite, such as never was before and never will be again
4)Then at that time Michael will stand up for his people and deliver them
5)Then there will be a resurrection of the dead
There is no implied distance of thousands of years between these events. In fact, the angel tells Daniel how to count the days.
Daniel asks again, when will these things happen?
And, again, He is told, at the end of the age.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
--Dan 12
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near.--Luke 21:28
:iagree:
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2012, 04:41:30 PM
Quote from: DougDaniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
This is speaking of the resurrection, discussed at length in 1 Cor. 15. It corresponds also to the things described in Rev. 11:15-18.
well this is also speaking of the great tribulation which Jesus talks of in Mat. 24.
So we have
1)the abomination that causes desolation standing in Jerusalem
2)Jesus cites this prophecy in Daniel, and says run for the hills when you see it
3)Then, start counting the days of the great tribulation, which both Jesus and Daniel cite, such as never was before and never will be again
4)Then at that time Michael will stand up for his people and deliver them
5)Then there will be a resurrection of the dead
There is no implied distance of thousands of years between these events. In fact, the angel tells Daniel how to count the days.
Daniel asks again, when will these things happen?
And, again, He is told, at the end of the age.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
--Dan 12
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near.
--Luke 21:28
:iagree:
"1)the abomination that causes desolation standing in Jerusalem"Daniel 12:1 says, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people..." and Revelation 12:7 says, "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon."
The warfare of the saints is spiritual. Paul said, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [Eph. 6:12]
The "desolation" Daniel's prophecies allude to is about
spiritual desolation, the confusion in the church, apostasy, general lack of faith, lack of conviction, false interpretations, and the proliferation of false prophets, etc.
"2)Jesus cites this prophecy in Daniel, and says run for the hills when you see it"Luke 9:23-24
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Jesus was not saying flee to save your own life. He said "flee to the mountains" meaning seek God's promises, as mountains represent the lofty, spiritual, everlasting promises of God. This is shown in Genesis 47:26, where Jacob said, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." The blessings he received were spiritual, and everlasting, like lofty mountains.
"3)Then, start counting the days of the great tribulation, which both Jesus and Daniel cite, such as never was before and never will be again"No scripture puts a time or a number on the duration of "the great tribulation." Deceived dispensationalists say it is seven years, but they mistake Christ for Antichrist, and they say the "covenant" in Dan. 9:27 is one that Antichrist makes with the Jews. In fact, it refers to the holy covenant Christ makes with the saints, which is like a betrothal, and promises eternal life to those who believe in him.
IMO, when Jesus said, "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" [Matt. 24:20-21] he alluded to the judgment, and the fate of those "left behind" when the resurrection occurs. This is "winter" in a spiritual sense, as it follows the harvest of the saints, those who are in his heavenly kingdom. The "sabbath day" is a shadow and type of the "rest" promised to the saints. To flee on the sabbath, would mean one had to seek God's salvation, when the church was already enjoying the benefits of the glorious kingdom. By all means, "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day" and that one may be ready and prepared when the day comes. Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." [Luke 21:36] The "winter" and "sabbath day" in Matt. 24:20 are both figures of the judgment, IMO.
"4)Then at that time Michael will stand up for his people and deliver them"Many believe Michael refers to Jesus. He is our shepherd, and he is already seeking his sheep. "For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country." [Ezek. 34:11-13] The "sheep" represent Christians, and the "mountains of Israel" represent the promises of God, which includes the promise that the Spirit will guide us into the truth. This is a wonderful promise, a spiritual "mountain." Peter said, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." [2 Peter 1:3-4]
"5)Then there will be a resurrection of the dead"This is another promise to the saints, one of the "mountains" Jesus encouraged us to flee to.
"There is no implied distance of thousands of years between these events."Peter said, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [2 Peter 3:8] In prophecy, events that are widely separated in terms of human time are often concatenated. God's time is not our time. When the resurrection occurs, it will seem to Daniel as if it was just a moment from the time of his death in the 6th century BC. "And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." [Dan. 12:8-11]
Doug
Quote from: eaglesway on September 28, 2012, 09:22:46 AM
Amen, and ALL the virgins could hear the cry. All of them were awakened by it. But only half of them could follow all the way to the feast. "The Bridegroom Cometh!"
Come Quickly Lord Jesus!
We speak a wisdom among the mature....
God has revealed them to us by the Spirit.....
The carnal man does not receive the deep things of God for it is foolishness to him, he is still under the heavens, under the elemental principles, needing to be taught again the foundations of the oracles of God.
The carnal man is unable to follow when the prophetic word speaks, COME, when the Spirit and the Bride say COME...... Come to the feast, the wedding feast where the BRIDE is UNITED TO THE LAMB OF GOD...... He is calling us to His footstool, to be one at His table, in His house, but who can hear it? And of those who hear, who has the oil to carry them outside the camp, through the night to where there is no need of sun or moon because the God is the light and the Lamb is the Lamp in the midst of it?
Eaglesway
I hope you do not mind when I read your post I thought that if I changed a few words in your post it would be closer to how I see things.
I am not saying I disagree with your post or that you would agree with the changes I made to your post.
Amen, and ALL the virgins could hear the cry. All of them were awakened by it. But only half of them could follow all the way to the feast. "The Bridegroom Cometh!"
Come Quickly Lord Jesus!
We speak a wisdom among the mature....
Those that eat meat and no longer drink milkGod has revealed them to us by the Spirit.....
The carnal
( the person who still believes that Jesus will torture other people for ever) man does not receive the deep things of God for it is foolishness to him, he is still under the heavens, under the elemental (
elementary) principles, needing to be taught again the foundations of( pure everlasting LOVE) the oracles of God.
The carnal
( the person who still believes that Jesus will torture other people for ever) man is unable to follow when the prophetic word speaks, COME, when the Spirit and the Bride say COME...... Come to the feast, the wedding feast where the BRIDE is UNITED TO THE LAMB OF GOD...... He is calling us to His footstool, to be one at His table, in His house, but who can hear it? And of those who hear, who has the oil to carry them outside the camp, through the night to where there is no need of sun or moon because the God is the light and the Lamb is the Lamp in the midst of it?
People who believe in ET have to make sure that the way they were saved was the right way before they follow. In other words they go back to the first time they believed and recall whether it was done properly.
THIS CAN HAPPEN
THINKING HE WAS IN THEIR COMPANY THEY TRAVELED ON FOR A DAY. THEN THEY BEGAN
LOOKING FOR HIM AMONG THEIR RELATIVES AND FRIENDS.. WHEN THEY DID NOT FIND HIM THEY
WENT BACK TO JERUSALEM TO FIND HIM.
AFTER THREE DAYS THEY FOUND HIM IN THE TEMPLE COURTS
WHY WERE YOU SEARCHING FOR ME? HE ASKED DIDN'T YOU KNOW I HAD TO BE IN MY FATHER'S HOUSE?
The promise of the Holy Spirit is that he has and will
directly lead and grow and nurture your spirit.
Once you set out to preach the TRUE Gospel.
If we were to think of,
and categorize all the different nations and dialects.
The category list would be long.
Each category would have millions of people in them.
To then say the true gospel must be preached to each one.
and then the end comes.
Means the end is no where near.
It is just another distraction.
(IMO it is a satanic distraction that people can see
the end of every one else's time on earth but not their own)
This is the true gospel, and I would say, yes, it has been preached to the ends of the earth by now.
3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear."
--Mat 13
The gospel; Jesus Christ crucified for our sins and risen again.
I Corinthians 15
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures
Did Jesus preach this gospel?
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 29, 2012, 02:07:42 AM
Did Jesus preach this gospel?
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but yes, He said He would destroy the temple and raise it again in 3 days. Which was a parable, right?
So did He want them all to understand at that point? Or was there more to the plan?
Jesus preached it later after the cross "more clearly" (no parables) - through the Apostle Paul. :Peace2:
This is my favorite gospel--
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
--Gal 3:8
Yes, that's good alright. Seems to me there's a lot of gospel in the scriptures, aka Good News.
My personal belief is that the cross and what was accomplished there is the center of it, where it all hinges - the foundational part.
The Bible says Paul preached the whole gospel, the "whole counsel of God". But it seems to me that when he boiled it all down to his very core message, this was it - "..I decided not to know any thing among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.. I Cor. 2:2
Blessings.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on September 29, 2012, 02:33:21 AM
Jesus preached it later after the cross "more clearly" (no parables) - through the Apostle Paul. :Peace2:
Perhaps no parables, but many mysteries.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 29, 2012, 06:33:45 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 29, 2012, 02:33:21 AM
Jesus preached it later after the cross "more clearly" (no parables) - through the Apostle Paul. :Peace2:
many mysteries.
For sure, many mysteries in the "whole counsel". Reminds me of "the logos is complete but not completely understood". :nod:
By more clearly I mean specifically what Paul said with these things (to which Jesus had earlier alluded/signified); "the gospel .. by which also you are saved... that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.. I decided not to know any thing among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified".
Quote from: jabcat on September 29, 2012, 02:17:39 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 29, 2012, 02:07:42 AM
Did Jesus preach this gospel?
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but yes, He said He would destroy the temple and raise it again in 3 days. Which was a parable, right?
So did He want them all to understand at that point? Or was there more to the plan?
That is a side step...why? What was the gospel that Jesus preached? Seems, the gospel is the cross and after. Jesus came preaching the kingdom. And what has that to do with destroying the temple in 3 days?
The understanding, is in understanding of the parables. The parables were not given for simplicity, but for the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to discern to those with ears to hear.
As well, if you did not "see and hear" the words of the parables taught by Jesus, then the words of Paul, in his epistles still sound as the tinkle of brass, which we see through out religion and all the harlot denominations expressed today in Christendom.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 29, 2012, 07:50:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 29, 2012, 02:17:39 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 29, 2012, 02:07:42 AM
Did Jesus preach this gospel?
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but yes, He said He would destroy the temple and raise it again in 3 days. Which was a parable, right?
So did He want them all to understand at that point? Or was there more to the plan?
That is a side step...why? What was the gospel that Jesus preached? Seems, the gospel is the cross and after. Jesus came preaching the kingdom. And what has that to do with destroying the temple in 3 days?
The understanding, is in understanding of the parables. The parables were not given for simplicity, but for the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to discern to those with ears to hear.
As well, if you did not "see and hear" the words of the parables taught by Jesus, then the words of Paul, in his epistles still sound as the tinkle of brass, which we see through out religion and all the harlot denominations expressed today in Christendom.
What do you perceive as a side-step?
That's what I meant by the parable piece. Most didn't understand at the time although Jesus talked about it with the temple parable .
I agree Jesus preached about the kingdom. As for how it's connected, I see it as all tying together like a thread running through the whole gospel. The Lamb slain from the foundation. I believe His parable of the temple was predicting His death and resurrection, portending what Paul then preached post-cross.
Well we know that from Gen. 2:17.
Side step= getting away from the confrontation, whatever that may be.
"Most didn't understand at the time although Jesus talked about it with the temple parable ." Jab
NO ONE understood, that's why He spoke in parables. The parables are to be understood through wisdom, and that wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit, not from MY or YOUR understanding.
"I agree Jesus preached about the kingdom."
No Jesus came preaching the kingdom.
Mat_4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Jesus preached the kingdom.
Actually, he speaks in parables so that they won't understand.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
--Mat 13
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
--Mark 4
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. Jn 15:16
I agree that was the purpose for parables. Thus my earlier question "did He want them all to understand at that point? Or was there more to the plan?".
As far as Jesus' preaching - "the Kingdom is like unto..."
Blessings.
Right. That really threw me for a loop back in the day.
He doesn't want them to understand, lest they turn and be healed?
Which brings us back to Romans 11...
It also partially fulfills this prophecy [the rest to be fulfilled at the end of the age]
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof
--Isaiah 6
But when oak trees and terebinth trees
are cut down, stumps are left.
And my holy people will be like stumps
that begin to grow again."
Yes, one thing leads to another, fitting together perfectly in His plan. All the while, the thread of the Lamb runs throughout. Molly, that was one thing that really strenthened UR for me; since Jesus basically "hid" Himself and His purpose from most (He explained to His disciples in private, and did choose some in that age), if there wasn't "more to the plan", then He would have been purposefully "sending most to hell". Which then brings up something that I think was important for you - God's plan for the Ages. Starting at the beginning, the Lamb slain from, ending with all nations blessed and God All in All. Real big.
Quote from: jabcat on September 29, 2012, 10:05:02 AM
Yes, one thing leads to another, fitting together perfectly in His plan. All the while, the thread of the Lamb runs throughout. Molly, that was one thing that really strenthened UR for me; since Jesus basically "hid" Himself and His purpose from most (He explained to His disciples in private, and did choose some in that age), if there wasn't "more to the plan", then He would have been purposefully "sending most to hell". Which then brings up something that I think was important for you - God's plan for the Ages. Starting at the beginning, the Lamb slain from, ending with all nations blessed and God All in All. Real big.
:iagree:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 29, 2012, 08:58:52 AM
Well we know that from Gen. 2:17.
Side step= getting away from the confrontation, whatever that may be.
"Most didn't understand at the time although Jesus talked about it with the temple parable ." Jab
NO ONE understood, that's why He spoke in parables. The parables are to be understood through wisdom, and that wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit, not from MY or YOUR understanding.
"I agree Jesus preached about the kingdom."
No Jesus came preaching the kingdom.
Mat_4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Jesus preached the kingdom.
I believe the book of revelation is about Jesus Christ and him crucified.
There are in my opinion so many children of God waxing falsely their
so called wisdom and spiritual insights regarding this one book.
If you are looking for something more wise and more spiritual than the cross
of my Lord and Savior you won't find it.
In your life time this generation will see those you carry the cross.
Those who carry the cross only will lead this church age as it finds it way
back to the cross and into the kingdom of God
That is here now and can only be entered through the cross.
You will either enter led by the HOLY SPIRIT.
or you will be put in by the HOLYSpirit
The kingdom of God is the manifested glory of God. It transforms(restoration) and translates(revelation) things. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven".
It is not, "Please let me get to heaven".
The meek shall "inherit the earth".
The holy city is "coming down out of heaven".
The mustard seed becomes a tree that "fills the whole earth".
Quote from: jabcat on September 29, 2012, 09:29:50 AM
I agree that was the purpose for parables. Thus my earlier question "did He want them all to understand at that point?
Depends on the Trinity view....
My answer: Father/HS didn't want it. Jesus had no control over it.
(Luke 8:10) And he said, To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might
not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 29, 2012, 08:58:52 AM
NO ONE understood, that's why He spoke in parables. The parables are to be understood through wisdom, and that wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit, not from MY or YOUR understanding.
All teachers used parables.
First a rather complex/deep parable. Then immediately followed by an example everyone understood. Jesus never gave the explanations in public.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 30, 2012, 03:23:43 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 29, 2012, 08:58:52 AM
NO ONE understood, that's why He spoke in parables. The parables are to be understood through wisdom, and that wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit, not from MY or YOUR understanding.
All teachers used parables.
First a rather complex/deep parable. Then immediately followed by an example everyone understood. Jesus never gave the explanations in public.
Should that be true, then why did the disciples, go a fishing(Jo. 21:3)? If they understood the parables, I would think they would be teaching what they had understood of the explanations Jesus gave.?
If Jesus gave you personally a very clear explanation of a parable would that mean you understand all parables?
YOU BROUGHT UP A VERY GOOD POINT,MICAH
MARK 16;7 BUT GO TELL HIS DISCIPLES AND PETER,'HE IS GOING AHEAD OF YOU
INTO GALILEE.THERE YOU WILL SEE HIM,JUST AS HE TOLD YOU.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 30, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Should that be true, then why did the disciples, go a fishing(Jo. 21:3)? If they understood the parables, I would think they would be teaching what they had understood of the explanations Jesus gave.?
:thumbsup:
They may have partly understood some of the parables but
I don't believe they fully understood things till after Christ was crucified and resurrected. (John 2:22) (Acts 11:16)
(John 14:26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, AND BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU.
CHB
Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
MAYBE THEY WERE TOLD TO GO THERE.
Yeah maybe.
:flamebreath: the disciples went a fishing in Gailee..because Jesus told that that he would
go ahead of them into Galilee after he was raised. the angel told them women to tell them
that he was not in the grave..but had went ahead of them into Galilee as he had told them.
they went there waiting for Him..and went fishing there while they waited for the angel told them
they would see him there..and also Jesus told them women don't be afraid and tell my brothers to go
to Galilee,there they will see me.
granted the disciples did not understand fully..for Jesus said that 'I yet have many things to say to you..
but at present you can not bear them" but the above is why they went to Lake Tiberius/sea of Galilee
they were told to go there
I'm concerned about our entering into practicing the prophetic, by words and visions, and not be limited to the pale substitute of interpreting the written record of what others heard and said and saw. God says He wants everybody to speak in tongues, and even more, that we should all prophecy. "Now I want you all to be speaking in languages, yet rather that you may be prophesying..." (1 Co 145, CLT) Look at verse one here in 1 Co 14 "1 Be pursuing love. Yet be zealous for spiritual endowments, yet rather that you may be prophesying." Again in 1429-31, "Now, as to prophets, let two or three speak, and let the others discriminate. Yet if it should be revealed to another sitting by, let the first hush, for you can all be prophesying one by one, that all may be learning and all be consoled." Consider vs. 31, "You can all be prophesying . . ."
Perhaps the biggest barrier to people of God entering into prophesying is they and their gifts have been replaced with a performance, usually a sermon, by the same paid man whose authority is names of honor given by other men. Where, if not when together will we cultivate this that is clearly God's will for us? "The spirit of prophecy is the testimony to Jesus." Just begin to tell someone, or a group, what the council of God is toward them. Speak what is God's will for them. While saying these things God may take it on up. In the midst of doing this I've had a vision interrupt, and when I told the vision to the brother I was speaking to in front of the congregation, the people there began to shout and clap. The became very boisterous. The vision was a prophecy that come to him at least three times previously. The people there knew what it meant, but I had to have it explained to me.
Without appreciating what it means to have the spirit of the resurrected and ascended Jesus in us, that all He is and does is in us as a potential to partake of and grow into, how will we come into the Perfect Man, the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ? Without meeting in a way that is conducive for each of us to exercise to our own spiritual development, how will we come into "the image and likeness of God?" Prophesying is essential and at the heart of our being like the Lord. Are we only to enter in outside the meeting of the brethren? How can we get free to meet under the Headship of Jesus Christ?
Noun 1. prophecy - knowledge of the future (usually said to be obtained from a divine source)
2. prophecy - a prediction uttered under divine inspiration
How does that saying go?
"You can't handle the truth."
But, what does it say of God's people that the truth must be watered down and delivered to them only in pleasantries?
Yet, we look at the prophets of old, and what pleasantries came out of their mouths?
And, to skip over all the bad stuff, also known as judgment on a people who will not change its ways, shows a lack of courage and character, an unwillingness to see the problem, and repent.
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
--Isa 30
Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2012, 08:30:39 AM
Noun 1. prophecy - knowledge of the future (usually said to be obtained from a divine source)
2. prophecy - a prediction uttered under divine inspiration
How does that saying go?
"You can't handle the truth."
But, what does it say of God's people that the truth must be watered down and delivered to them only in pleasantries?
Yet, we look at the prophets of old, and what pleasantries came out of their mouths?
And, to skip over all the bad stuff, also known as judgment on a people who will not change its ways, shows a lack of courage and character, an unwillingness to see the problem, and repent.
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
--Isa 30
Molly, sometimes we just "get to" proclaim. We're not the Holy Spirit; we can't change hearts.
Absolutely Uncertain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgvMGLdc908
A video about the ominous implications of our changing relationship with Israel
All The President's Wars: How Foreign Policy Became One Man's Prerogative
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bOSOFKM5tE
Could it be the other side of the same coin with false prophets.
They realize that the people of the church want Jesus to return during their live time.
Lately we have had a huge market place to sell the end times prophecies.
People you do not trust in the lord for today.
Want to hear that the end of everything is near and unspirit filled people will tell them exactly what their Itching ears want to hear.
This generation will be judge by the next two generations.
As the generation who buried their COIN so that they did not have to risk.
The next two generations will spend their Coins and help bring in bumper crops
Isaiah 30:10 They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.
For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. 2 Tim 4:3
2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
The key here is LAST DAYS.
In the beginning of the 19th century and the beginning 20th century and the beginning of the 21st century.
Those you were miss led by a contrary spirit predicted that the LAST DAYS were upon them.
When the 22nd century starts there will a throng of people following a contrary spirit predicting that they are in the LAST DAYS.
Following or being a false prophet in no way profits the Kingdom of GOD
Quote from: dajo
In the beginning of the 19th century and the beginning 20th century and the beginning of the 21st century.
Those you were miss led by a contrary spirit predicted that the LAST DAYS were upon them.
The Bible contains tons of descriptions of the last days, of the beast system that will drive it, of particular players like Antichrist and False Prophet, of specific nations that will be involved in specific ways. And, always in the center of it, are God's covenant people.
I've noticed that people who have predicted the last days in times past have done that detached from events happening in the world at the time. They more seem to depend on a counting strategy like the man who predicted a specific date and put it on billboards. I think the reason the book of Daniel is sealed until the end is because it will simply not be understandable until the set up is in place for certain events to unfold.
Given that, I don't think you can go wrong by paying attention to what is going on in the world and looking at how it relates to Bible prophecy. What I think we have to remember is that it is not only one event but many simultaneous and consecutive events that will exhibit the birth pangs of the LAST DAYS.
As ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.
Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
These certainly are "terrible times". I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques. I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is. It would be interesting to see the #'s on whether faith in YHWH through His Son is on the increase or decrease in the world, and what that might mean. IF on the dramatic decrease, for those who think it just gets better and better from here, what's the perspective in light of that possible event (dramatic decrease in the faith)? Thanks, blessings.
p.s. I certainly believe God is going to set things right. But i don't know how dark things may get in the meantime, and I think there must be a combination of awareness/warning and hope/faith/trust. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on October 04, 2012, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
These certainly are "terrible times". I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques. I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is. It would be interesting to see the #'s on whether faith in YHWH through His Son is on the increase or decrease in the world, and what that might mean. IF on the dramatic decrease, for those who think it just gets better and better from here, what's the perspective in light of that possible event (dramatic decrease in the faith)? Thanks, blessings.
I've read the same thing, and there are lots of warnings about Europe and the death of the culture if things continue in this vein, which they show every evidence of continuing.
We've already read how the Ottoman empire and its precursor brought us the dark ages, and brought it in waves, as first the Byzantine and then the European countries were dominated by Islam. Whole libraries were burned, and the leaders, priests, and common people wiped out. Today, the same thing can be brought about by a more 'peaceful' transition, just as a matter of a numbers game. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Even in our own country, there have been recent muslim protests against freedom of speech, and one would think no one would take it seriously, but our own President has said, 'The future does not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.'
Would calling that religion satanic be considered slander?
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 07:35:46 AM
I've noticed that people who have predicted the last days in times past have done that detached from events happening in the world at the time. They more seem to depend on a counting strategy like the man who predicted a specific date and put it on billboards.
The counting strategy is
also part of the prophesy.
And yes the events are
also a very important part of that prophesy.
The problem with those events is that they aren't described in such a way it's impossible to be wrong about what they really are. Another problem is that only
after all events took place it's sure they were the prophesied events.
Same with Jesus. When was it Biblically proven He was the person the whole OT pointed to?
At birth? After fulfilling 10% of all prophesies about him? 40%? 80%? 99%?
No. Only when the 100% was reached it was a fact.
Quote from: MollyAs ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.
I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:09:51 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 07:35:46 AM
I've noticed that people who have predicted the last days in times past have done that detached from events happening in the world at the time. They more seem to depend on a counting strategy like the man who predicted a specific date and put it on billboards.
The counting strategy is also part of the prophesy.
And yes the events are also a very important part of that prophesy.
The problem with those events is that they aren't described in such a way it's impossible to be wrong about what they really are. Another problem is that only after all events took place it's sure they were the prophesied events.
Same with Jesus. When was it Biblically proven He was the person the whole OT pointed to?
At birth? After fulfilling 10% of all prophesies about him? 40%? 80%? 99%?
No. Only when the 100% was reached it was a fact.
It's interesting that when the Magi came to Herod and asked where will the king of the Jews be born, Herod called the priests and they said Bethlehem. Then Herod takes on killing all the baby boys.
Then, 30 years later when John the Baptist is down at the river in the wilderness, they come to him from Jerusalem and ask him, who are you?
They knew the Messiah was there, and they were looking for him. They knew who he was.
What they didn't know was how he was going to win.
Meanwhile, many who met him for the first time knew.
I think it is possible to know before there is 100 percent verification.
Quote from: jabcat on October 04, 2012, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
These certainly are "terrible times". I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques. I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.
It's a fact.
But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started to replace UR? Or when islam started? Or when Christians started to purge Jewishness out of their lives? Or when the Protestants split of RCC?
Etc. Etc
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:13:31 AM
Quote from: MollyAs ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.
I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?
I think the problem for the Jews was a combination of things. There are two Messiahs described in OT prophecy--the suffering servant, lamb to the slaughter, and the lion of the tribe of Judah. That is because Christ functions in two different roles--first Messiah ben Joseph, then Messiah ben David. In fact, I believe the second time he comes, it will be to deliver the Jews.
They were expecting a warrior deliverer the first time because they were oppressed and that is what they desired. They weren't exactly wrong, just their timing.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:20:15 AM
Quote from: jabcat on October 04, 2012, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
These certainly are "terrible times". I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques. I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.
It's a fact.
But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started to replace UR? Or when islam started? Or when Christians started to purge Jewishness out of their lives? Or when the Protestants split of RCC?
Etc. Etc
Because it is a total turning away from Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:17:12 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:09:51 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 07:35:46 AM
I've noticed that people who have predicted the last days in times past have done that detached from events happening in the world at the time. They more seem to depend on a counting strategy like the man who predicted a specific date and put it on billboards.
The counting strategy is also part of the prophesy.
And yes the events are also a very important part of that prophesy.
The problem with those events is that they aren't described in such a way it's impossible to be wrong about what they really are. Another problem is that only after all events took place it's sure they were the prophesied events.
Same with Jesus. When was it Biblically proven He was the person the whole OT pointed to?
At birth? After fulfilling 10% of all prophesies about him? 40%? 80%? 99%?
No. Only when the 100% was reached it was a fact.
It's interesting that when the Magi came to Herod and asked where will the king of the Jews be born, Herod called the priests and they said Bethlehem. Then Herod takes on killing all the baby boys.
Then, 30 years later when John the Baptist is down at the river in the wilderness, they come to him from Jerusalem and ask him, who are you?
They knew the Messiah was there, and they were looking for him. They knew who he was.
What they didn't know was how he was going to win.
Meanwhile, many who met him for the first time knew.
I think it is possible to know before there is 100 percent verification.
Let's assume Jesus got scared and ran away before He got crucified. Or He died when He fell of a cliff. Yes all prophesies would still be right. Except the most important one. "Saviour".
Without crucifixion no salvation.
Sure after watching 50 miracles it all becomes quite obvious. But the Bible is kinda strickt in it's rules regarding true/false prophesies and prophets.
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:25:00 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:20:15 AM
Quote from: jabcat on October 04, 2012, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
These certainly are "terrible times". I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques. I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.
It's a fact.
But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started to replace UR? Or when islam started? Or when Christians started to purge Jewishness out of their lives? Or when the Protestants split of RCC?
Etc. Etc
Because it is a total turning away from Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
What exactly are you answering Molly?
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:23:24 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:13:31 AM
Quote from: MollyAs ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.
I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?
I think the problem for the Jews was a combination of things. There are two Messiahs described in OT prophecy--the suffering servant, lamb to the slaughter, and the lion of the tribe of Judah. That is because Christ functions in two different roles--first Messiah ben Joseph, then Messiah ben David. In fact, I believe the second time he comes, it will be to deliver the Jews.
They were expecting a warrior deliverer the first time because they were oppressed and that is what they desired. They weren't exactly wrong, just their timing.
If they expected the Warrior they must have writings that the Servant was among them in the past. Because the Servant obviously is a
huge event in their history I would think the Jews would have whole libraries filled with books describing that Servant. But afaik they have none.
So why would they have expected a Warrior?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:29:33 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:25:00 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:20:15 AM
Quote from: jabcat on October 04, 2012, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
These certainly are "terrible times". I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques. I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.
It's a fact.
But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started to replace UR? Or when islam started? Or when Christians started to purge Jewishness out of their lives? Or when the Protestants split of RCC?
Etc. Etc
Because it is a total turning away from Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
What exactly are you answering Molly?
I think the great falling away that is described could be a transition to another religion altogether, especially one where Jesus is not the Son of God but a minor prophet who will kill Jews and Christians when he returns.
As opposed, to another sect, denomination, or flavor of Christianity that some would consider heresy, like Protestant vs Roman Catholic.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:34:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:23:24 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:13:31 AM
Quote from: MollyAs ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.
I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?
I think the problem for the Jews was a combination of things. There are two Messiahs described in OT prophecy--the suffering servant, lamb to the slaughter, and the lion of the tribe of Judah. That is because Christ functions in two different roles--first Messiah ben Joseph, then Messiah ben David. In fact, I believe the second time he comes, it will be to deliver the Jews.
They were expecting a warrior deliverer the first time because they were oppressed and that is what they desired. They weren't exactly wrong, just their timing.
If they expected the Warrior they must have writings that the Servant was among them in the past. Because the Servant obviously is a huge event in their history I would think the Jews would have whole libraries filled with books describing that Servant. But afaik they have none.
So why would they have expected a Warrior?
I'm not sure they really understood in what order these Messiahs might come or if, perhaps they would be one or two people. I've read all kinds of speculation. But, I've also heard that they do not currently read Isaiah 53 in the synogogue, either.
I just think they were oppressed, so they wanted the warrior. But, meanwhile, the ones he called vipers knew who he was. Satan knows who God is. So, the masses were probably also misled, as well.
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:37:08 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:29:33 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:25:00 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:20:15 AM
Quote from: jabcat on October 04, 2012, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
These certainly are "terrible times". I was just listening to how many have fallen away in Europe, houses of worship being replaced by mosques. I DON"T KNOW how true or accurate this is.
It's a fact.
But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started to replace UR? Or when islam started? Or when Christians started to purge Jewishness out of their lives? Or when the Protestants split of RCC?
Etc. Etc
Because it is a total turning away from Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
What exactly are you answering Molly?
I think the great falling away that is described could be a transition to another religion altogether, especially one where Jesus is not the Son of God but a minor prophet who will kill Jews and Christians when he returns.
As opposed, to another sect, denomination, or flavor of Christianity that some would consider heresy, like Protestant vs Roman Catholic.
Imo, the transition from Christianity to islam is far less worse than that from UR to ET.
Imo, denying Jesus is far less bad than turning Him into an ET monster.
Personally I would prefer daily reading I don't exist in all newspapers over reading I'm a child molestor once a month.
UR-->ET is a transition to another religion. Remember the Christmas thread? How many names the wife of Nimrod has? Same happened to Christianity when it got ETified. Take a pagan (Roman) religion change a few names and inject foreign doctrines (hell for example)
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:43:56 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:34:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:23:24 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:13:31 AM
Quote from: MollyAs ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.
I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?
I think the problem for the Jews was a combination of things. There are two Messiahs described in OT prophecy--the suffering servant, lamb to the slaughter, and the lion of the tribe of Judah. That is because Christ functions in two different roles--first Messiah ben Joseph, then Messiah ben David. In fact, I believe the second time he comes, it will be to deliver the Jews.
They were expecting a warrior deliverer the first time because they were oppressed and that is what they desired. They weren't exactly wrong, just their timing.
If they expected the Warrior they must have writings that the Servant was among them in the past. Because the Servant obviously is a huge event in their history I would think the Jews would have whole libraries filled with books describing that Servant. But afaik they have none.
So why would they have expected a Warrior?
I'm not sure they really understood in what order these Messiahs might come or if, perhaps they would be one or two people. I've read all kinds of speculation. But, I've also heard that they do not currently read Isaiah 53 in the synogogue, either.
I just think they were oppressed, so they wanted the warrior. But, meanwhile, the ones he called vipers knew who he was. Satan knows who God is. So, the masses were probably also misled, as well.
A Warrior King followed by a servant doesn't make sense.
The warrior will establish a everlasting kingdom but then gets replaced by a servant? Who will come after the servant to liberate the Jews again? Another warrior?
Maybe it was because Jesus spoke about His kingdom and setting captives free.
Only mighty kings have such powers. So the issue the Jews had with Jesus perhaps was that they thought He proclaimed Himself a warrior while they expected a servant to appear first.
Besides of all the above I think they (Jewish leaders) were so entangled in their own laws, applying patterns overly strickt nobody ever would be capable to fit their ideals....
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:56:00 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:43:56 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:34:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:23:24 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 09:13:31 AM
Quote from: MollyAs ww says, we are looking for a pattern--and one that fits the template given to us in the Bible.
I agree with that statement. But I have to add that defining the pattern is open for discussion. I'll explain that with an extreme example. All agree Jesus was a the sacrificial Lamb of God. OT predicted such a Lamb. Using a pattern I claim Jesus was fake because He looked human; not like a sheep. To be clear I'm not promoting such a pattern but it shows patterns can be taken the strict/far. And obviously also the the opposite. That's also a difficultly in this whole discussing. How strict are we going to apply the patterns?
I think the problem for the Jews was a combination of things. There are two Messiahs described in OT prophecy--the suffering servant, lamb to the slaughter, and the lion of the tribe of Judah. That is because Christ functions in two different roles--first Messiah ben Joseph, then Messiah ben David. In fact, I believe the second time he comes, it will be to deliver the Jews.
They were expecting a warrior deliverer the first time because they were oppressed and that is what they desired. They weren't exactly wrong, just their timing.
If they expected the Warrior they must have writings that the Servant was among them in the past. Because the Servant obviously is a huge event in their history I would think the Jews would have whole libraries filled with books describing that Servant. But afaik they have none.
So why would they have expected a Warrior?
I'm not sure they really understood in what order these Messiahs might come or if, perhaps they would be one or two people. I've read all kinds of speculation. But, I've also heard that they do not currently read Isaiah 53 in the synogogue, either.
I just think they were oppressed, so they wanted the warrior. But, meanwhile, the ones he called vipers knew who he was. Satan knows who God is. So, the masses were probably also misled, as well.
A Warrior King followed by a servant doesn't make sense.
The warrior will establish a everlasting kingdom but then gets replaced by a servant? Who will come after the servant to liberate the Jews again? Another warrior?
It could be one person, for instance a warrior who ends up dying [in battle] for the nation. I've heard that one described, too.
But, you can see the importance of knowing all the prophecies by heart, even if you don't understand them.
Ok, it's late and I'm tired, so I prolly shoudn't even go here, but you are always saying, ww, that the Jews don't believe in Hell. They believe in some type of corrective phase that doesn't last longer than one year. Obviously this would come out of what is called by Jesus, 'traditions of men,' because I don't see anything resembling that in the OT. However, if they did believe such a thing, why would they perceive a need for a Savior who dies for their sins at all? They might have understood the suffering servant in a totally different way, therefore.
QuoteBut, you can see the importance of knowing all the prophecies by heart, even if you don't understand them.
Often that's not true. Even the opposite. When people don't understand they just start to invent their own explanations. It quicly becomes such a mess a less learned, but very honest, seeker drowns in a swamp of fantasies.
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 10:11:03 AM
Ok, it's late and I'm tired, so I prolly shoudn't even go here, but you are always saying, ww, that the Jews don't believe in Hell. They believe in some type of corrective phase that doesn't last longer than one year.
Yes, that's what I've read on Jewish (orthodox) websites. But likely there are Jewish sects that have a different view.
QuoteObviously this would come out of what is called by Jesus, 'traditions of men,' because I don't see anything resembling that in the OT.
Assuming you are refering to the 12 months....
I think the OT is far from complete. Example, the whole life of Adam is described in a few verses. That however doesn't mean Adam didn't pass on knowledge that never was written down by Moses. But yes I too have wondered where the 12 months come from. Plus more detailed statements about 3 months. I never found an explanation. Maybe I should just write a Rabbi. The only
guess I can make is that it's related to the harvests. Or by reading Hebrew in a 'special way'.
:dontknow:
QuoteHowever, if they did believe such a thing, why would they perceive a need for a Savior who dies for their sins at all? They might have understood the suffering servant in a totally different way, therefore.
Depends greatly on when they believe those 12 months take place. The moment they die? Or after the servant/warrior arrived?
Back to our playing board...
We see the ships of chittim are already in place, warships from 25 countries in the Strait of Hormuz.
There are border skirmishes now between Turkey and Syria, which could trigger the NATO alliance at any time.
But, who is the king of the north?
:umnick:
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
--Daniel 11
Daniel referred to the Antichrist as "the leader who will come, the little horn, the beast and the stern faced king."
In Daniel 11, he also referred to the Antichrist as the king of the North. The king of the North and the land of the North is what Jeremiah called the territory of the Assyria and Babylon. The Assyrian Empire was conquered by the Babylonians in 626 B.C. Both the Assyrian capital of Asshur and the Babylonian capital of Babylon were located in present day Iraq, see map below.
These empires essentially comprised the same territory which included present day Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
In Ezekiel 38 and 39 the Antichrist's two campaigns against Israel are interwoven in the prophecy. Included are details of the Antichrist and his armies coming against Israel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. The prophecy also describes the Antichrist and his armies coming against Jerusalem at the end of the age.
Ezekiel refers to the Antichrist as Gog, the chief prince, from the land of Magog. The ancient land of Magog included some of the territory represented by present day Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbajan, and Russia near the Black Sea.
Isaiah referred to the Antichrist as the Assyrian and the king of Assyria. One of Isaiah's several prophecies on the topic tells how Israel will at first rely on the Assyrian until he beats them with the club. But, then finally they will turn to the Holy One of Israel. This description depicts the last 7 years of the Time of the End when the Antichrist will be Israel's protector (first 3.5 years) until he attempts to wipe them out in the Great Tribulation (last 3.5 years).
Isaiah's prophecy also says that a remnant of Israel will turn to Yahweh and be saved from the Antichrist. When Isaiah refers to the Antichrist as the Assyrian, he is indicating from where the Antichrist will come. Ancient Assyria included territories represented by present day Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Iran.
Jesus, John and Paul spoke about the Antichrist. Jesus called the Antichrist 'the abomination that causes desolation.' Paul called the Antichrist 'the man of lawlessness' and 'the lawless one.' However, neither Jesus nor Paul indicated from where the Antichrist would come.
In Revelation 13, John said that the Antichrist and his kingdom would be like a lion, a leopard and a bear. Daniel used these likenesses for the Babylonian, Media-Persian and Greek Empires.
The Bible again and again indicates that the Antichrist will come from the Middle East.
With biblical prophecy consistently pointing to the Middle East as the origin of the Antichrist, why do some people believe that the Antichrist will come from a revived Roman Empire like the European Common Market?
This deception is from a sentence in Daniel 9:26 which says, "The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary."
One subject of Daniel 9:26 above, is "the people", the other is "the ruler who will come".
The people will be of the same people as the ruler who will come. This means the people and the ruler will be of the same national origin. If the people are Greek then the leader in question will be Greek. So, when we know the national origin of the people we will also know the national origin of the leader.
Part of this prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish sanctuary. According Josephus, the people that destroyed the sanctuary were predominately Syrian.
Some people have incorrectly assumed that, because it was a Roman army, the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary were Romans. However, it was customary for Rome to conscript soldiers from territories they had conquered. In this campaign the Roman troops were predominately Syrians.
Therefore, the ruler who will come will be of Syrian origin. Syria, at that time, included some of the territory of present day Syria, Lebanon and Turkey.
The ruler who will come is the Antichrist which is confirmed in Daniel 9:27. Daniel identifies the ruler who will come this way.
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him"
Therefore, Daniel is indicating in this prophecy that the Antichrist will come from the Middle East.
http://www.lastdaysmystery.info/from_where_the_antichrist_comes.htm
there are many anti-christs....many members of the one body..just as we are many members and one...
many false prophets in the false prophet..many men as beasts in the beast.
I know my christian orthodox syrian doctor is devasted...and having great sorrow over the tribulation
his family in Syria is expierencing..pray for him and them....christians first received the name
christian in Antioch in Syria.....also Rachael and Leah were from Syria
:umnick:
US prepares to strike Libyan militia suspected in Benghazi attack
Published: 03 October, 2012, 19:56
But as the US contemplates administering drone strikes and raids, it may harm relations with Libya.
Strikes against the suspected attackers would require the US military to enter Libyan territory against the wishes of the national government. While Libyan Prime Minister Mustafa Abu Shagur called the assault on the US consulate "a cowardly, criminal and terrorist attack," he said extremists in the country were a small minority that does "not number more than 100 or 150." The prime minister expressed his opposition to having any foreign troops on Libyan soil.
"We will not accept anyone entering inside Libya," he said. "That would infringe on sovereignty and we will refuse."
http://rt.com/usa/news/us-attack-libya-military-583/
Quote from: sheila on October 04, 2012, 05:55:08 PM
there are many anti-christs....many members of the one body..just as we are many members and one...
many false prophets in the false prophet..many men as beasts in the beast.
I know my christian orthodox syrian doctor is devasted...and having great sorrow over the tribulation
his family in Syria is expierencing..pray for him and them....christians first received the name
christian in Antioch in Syria.....also Rachael and Leah were from Syria
What makes this more complicated and troubling, it appears that the attack on Turkey from Syria might have been caused by the rebels who are fighting the Syrian army. Why would Syria lob rockets across the Turkish border out of the blue? But, rebels looking to weaken Syria would have a motive--to involve Syria in a wider war. And, guess who is supplying those rebels with arms?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2012, 10:14:18 AM
QuoteBut, you can see the importance of knowing all the prophecies by heart, even if you don't understand them.
Often that's not true. Even the opposite. When people don't understand they just start to invent their own explanations. It quicly becomes such a mess a less learned, but very honest, seeker drowns in a swamp of fantasies.
I think the mass drowning stared in 1999-2000.
We were even bombarded from secular radio that the world.
was going to end or there was going be something catastrophic.
The main stream American Church was leading the way.
They missed, there dates were off (luckily most church goers don't
know there bibles or there would be a lot of prophesiers getting stoned right now.)
The secular have moved on to different dangerous scenarios as they think
will titillate there audience.
The prophesiers of the new group of end timers are just as wrong as the
OLD group.
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
It is not a strong exploit to cut and paste
any kind of bad stuff you find on the internet.
I would be more convinced (if I wasn't listening to the spirit )
If some one posted articles that didn't fit there end times scenarios.
Posted them and explained why (Even Though) this article doesn't support my view,
explain why they still believe in there end time scenarios.
exploits...stir up interest in...to make use of for ones own advantage...to make profit from the labour of others
root..explicare thus explicat=to unfold...explain fully..to make clear or explixit..something obscure
there are five senses to the carnal body and five senses for the spiritual body
when you see all these things...lift yourself erect your deliverance draws nigh
Quote from: sheila on October 04, 2012, 07:24:48 PM
exploits...stir up interest in...to make use of for ones own advantage...to make profit from the labour of others
root..explicare thus explicat=to unfold...explain fully..to make clear or explixit..something obscure
there are five senses to the carnal body and five senses for the spiritual body
when you see all these things...lift yourself erect your deliverance draws nigh
but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Molly what do you believe are the Five senses of the spirit
Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come writers and critics
Who prophesy with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.
The line it is drawn
And, The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.
Lyrics from Times They are a-Changin', by Bob Dylan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCWdCKPtnYE
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 09:37:08 AM
But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started
I think the great falling away that is described could be a transition to another religion altogether, especially one where Jesus is not the Son of God but a minor prophet who will kill Jews and Christians when he returns.
As opposed, to another sect, denomination, or flavor of Christianity that some would consider heresy, like Protestant vs Roman Catholic.
My understanding of "the great falling away" is that it is what happened as this "religion" that had no temples, no priests, and no objects of veneration (that is, "worship) for over 300 years was replaced with what Jesus called gentile authority, its bureaucracy, basilicas (or, temples,) a priesthood paid for with money that financed other religious of the Roman Empire, and objects for worship. This alternative to every member participation as the family of God was very soon killing those experiencing spiritual revivals and those who possessed copies of scripture in their own languages. This was poised in the world claiming itself to be the one and only "Church," the true and only Christianity. Without "it," more precisely, without "them," those who were in an intimate relationship with the institution with titles of blasphemy, without them, they say, there is no salvation.
What is "the great apostasy" (which is another way to translate, "the great falling away,") if this continuing abomination with her daughters is not? Don't misunderstand me. I'm not referring to the many saints of God who are part of those people in Mystical Babylon. Somehow they need to hear, "Come out of her, my beloved." What do you think was ruling to bring about "the dark ages?" Some say that period can be viewed in a positive light and that it was secular historians, antagonistic to religion and God, who provided the label "dark" ages as a slander. That discussion, one way or another, doesn't derail my assertion that we see a great falling away, a great apostasy early on in a Christian history mostly written by the minions of that apostasy.
Paul knows the details but he doesn't know when it will happen. He is talking about two events here, the appearance of a man on the world scene who is the Antichrist, the same man spoken about in the book of Daniel, and the return of the Lord Jesus. He tells us that this man will not be known to the world until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. Then the world will know who he is because of his vile deeds that are no longer held back. And, only after he has been revealed to the world will Jesus return. So, he is giving us an order of events. But, the very first thing that must happen is a major apostasy among men.
Paul tells us things must happen in this order.
The order Paul gives of these events:
1)men turn away from the most high God
2)Holy Spirit taken out of the way
3)Antichrist is released to do his evil deeds
4)He will do fake miracles and wonders
5)everyone will be fooled except the elect
6)Jesus returns
7)Antichrist destroyed
Brothers and sisters, we want to ask you something. It has to do with the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. It concerns the time when we will go to be with him.
2 What if you receive a prophecy, report or letter that is supposed to have come from us? What if it says that the day of the Lord has already come? If it does, we ask you not to become easily upset or alarmed.
3 Don't let anyone trick you in any way. That day will not come until people rise up against God. It will not come until the man of sin appears. He is a marked man. He is sentenced to be destroyed. 4 He will oppose everything that is called God. He will oppose everything that is worshiped. He will give himself power over everything. He will set himself up in God's temple. He will announce that he himself is God.
5 Don't you remember? When I was with you, I used to tell you those things.
6 Now you know what is holding the man of sin back. He is held back so that he can make his appearance at the right time. 7 The secret power of sin is already at work. But the one who now holds that power back will keep doing it until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then the man of sin will appear. The Lord Jesus will overthrow him with the breath of his mouth. The glorious brightness of Jesus' coming will destroy the man of sin.
9 The coming of the man of sin will be Satan's work. His work will be seen in all kinds of fake miracles, signs and wonders. 10 It will be seen in every kind of evil that fools people who are dying. They are dying because they refuse to love the truth. The truth would save them.
11 So God will fool them completely. Then they will believe the lie. 12 Many will not believe the truth. They will take pleasure in evil. They will be judged.
2 Thess 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
and by our gathering together unto him,
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
He shall speak words against the Most High
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2012, 07:03:20 AM
2)Holy Spirit taken out of the way
This is certainly no quotation of scripture; and, though I've heard that since childhood, it is one of the most foolish "interpretations" of scripture I've encountered. The passage used for such a puerile idea can be translated, "until he be revealed from the midst," if I have remembered it properly. Regardless, there is no removal of God. Not ever!
The purpose of our participation in this kind of discussion is so that we both learn and unlearn things. It has been said that the greater part of wisdom is in what to unlearn. We are supposed to discard those things that turn us out of the way of truth. It is such a thorn to me that so many people seem so stubbornly attached to a wrongheaded "cartoon Christianity" that they heard growing up or early in their life as a believer. I was there before I knew the Lord and for a while after. As things began to change for me I couldn't understand how people who stayed there for years have the same Bible as I did, unless it is that they don't read it; but, surprise! surprise!, some of them do read it. What makes us so stiffnecked? I know that so much of what I used to believe has been revised. I knew the person of the Lord somewhat when I believed the dipsinsationalist's line; but I didn't stay there. I sought earnestly to have more of God and to better understand His written Word.
QuoteIt has been said that the greater part of wisdom is in what to unlearn.
Wow I love that, and it's so true! I think I just found a new favorite quote. :)
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."
But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and ithe man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, times, and half a time.
And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.
Quote from: ReformerRegardless, there is no removal of God. Not ever!
Not from his saints. But, from the world? Yes, I think so.
Otherwise, you would not be the light of the world.
And, if you and all like you are removed, what then?
John 12:36 Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.
Matthew 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
"You are the light of the world--like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden. Mat 5:14
When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." Dan 12:7
Or possibly:
(Gen 6:3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Not all men are the light of the world.
Only those with Christ and the Holy Spirit.
the two wittness' es overcome that lay in the street for 31/2 days...is the testimony of Christ and the
Holy spirit[wittness of truth] for they give gifts to one another[bribes] instead of the gifts of the spirit
and the gift of eternal life. the true heavenly spiritual revelations were exchanged for this world..
it is only at this time they are standing up and 'come up here'..as Christ is cleansing His and
Holy spirit declaring all things.
the 'temple' is our body..so this is a spirit...a deceiving spirit that impersonates God.
the mysteries are being revealed..the mystery of God and godliness...the mystery of the man-of-lawlessness
or man of sin..
it is the 'carnal' man as a beast without understanding that is rules by the harlot evil spirit of Babylon
that claims to be God's wife but fornicates with the kings of the earth=majic spell/witchcraft and
sin of presumptousness..that takes rulership/dominion as God's kingdom on earth........
Daniel 8:24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
Daniel 11:13 For the king of the North will muster another army, larger than the first; and after several years, he will advance with a huge army fully equipped.
Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
:umnick:
Henry Kissinger:
"In 10 years, there will be no more Israel."
http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/cindy_adams/no_more_israel_h4kjPIab5EtBjAxsWoFYoO
Quote from: Molly on October 04, 2012, 05:32:40 PM
In Ezekiel 38 and 39 the Antichrist's two campaigns against Israel are interwoven in the prophecy. Included are details of the Antichrist and his armies coming against Israel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. The prophecy also describes the Antichrist and his armies coming against Jerusalem at the end of the age.
Ezekiel refers to the Antichrist as Gog, the chief prince, from the land of Magog. The ancient land of Magog included some of the territory represented by present day Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbajan, and Russia near the Black Sea.
No, none of this is found in the timeline of prophecy. Ezekiel does not refer to Antichrist as Gog, as the chief prince from the land of Magog. Nowhere in all of prophecy is AntiChrist ever referred to as a "prince", that is only inferred by yourself. The Bible describes exactly who this "Chief Prince of Meshech & Tubal" is.
I could go on & quote you at least eight different NT references for "prince" but I'll just give you the references instead & let you look them up: They are found in Matt 9:34, 12:24, Mk 3:22, Joh 12:31,14:30, 16:11, Eph 2:2, Rev 1:5.
None of these references are used in conjunction with the so-called Antichrist, only as a direct reference to Satan himself,
never ever Antichrist.
You are still failing to comprehend the timeline of prophecy with regard to the invasion of Israel by Gog & Magog led by the Chief prince of Meshech & Tubal in Ezek 38-39. It occurs at the
end of the Millenium, not just before the beginning of it. Just read Rev 20: 7-8, this is not complicated Molly, and the invasion is done by one described as a "prince"
not an Antichrist who has already been dead for over a thousand years.
Where have you ever seen a Biblical reference that Antichrist is the same individual as the Chief Prince of Meshech & Tubal? You should be able to see that if the two individuals are separated by one thousand years of human history, that they can't possibly be the same individuals.
yes, truth and Jesus Christ have lay as good as dead[31/2 days grave]in the street of the city.....
while men of sin have parceled out jurisdictions/kingdoms on the earth..warring and killing any
men that were bastions of truth......
there is a sign in the earth of restoration of Jerusalem..there is a sign in heaven of kingship/dominion
and a raising up the manchild. and just as in Jesus's birth..the kingdom of darkness and it's
principalities make it's move to destroy[prince of this world judged his works are wicked]
the Holy people..though appearing as dead in the streets of the city[will rise]
carnal men/understanding always puts to death High truth from above.......twists it.......
the two olive trees/lampstands are Jesus testimony and the testimony of the Holy spirit....
first He cleanses the inside...the outer court of the gentiles is not measured...but tramples
down the truth of the two olive trees...this is associated with the secound woe and precedes
the blowing of the seventh trumpet........the come up here of the two wittness' is associated with
the birth of the manchild/sons of God manifestation /being snatched up to the throne........
two beasts one from the sea one from the earth...th one from the earth is satan out of the abyss..
the manchild is part of the 1000 yr reign of Christ..when truth is elevated and men are called up here
the manchild is a child of light and part of the 1000yr day..
you have the wedding supper of the Lord and there is another great supper..where all the birds[unclean spirits]
gorge themselves on the flesh of kings generals mighty men/giving over flesh to satan for the destruction
of the flesh..so that the spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord
the seventh trumpet marks the beginning of execution of reward and wrath...it is Christ going forth...
the nations were angry[warring] and your wrath come...the time for destroying those who destroy
the elevating of the company of overcomers standing on Mt Zion[reward] has it's flip side[fall of Babylon]wrath
Father's wrath is never specifically aimed at men..but at the kingdom of darkness..the problem is
many men are joined to evil spirits and possessed of them[so,in that case if the righteous should strike me
it would even be a blessing.....for a sword blow/sickle or other such rod of iron, will seperate the wheat from the
tare[harvest time]
it is a spiritual war...the kingdom of darkness against the sons of light...
BEFORE I REALIZED IT MY DESIRE SET ME AMONG THE ROYAL CHARIOTS OF MY PEOPLE
WHY WOULD YOU GAZE ON THE SHULAMITE AS ON THE DANCE OF MAHANAIM?
TWO CAMPS..JACOB AND ESAU WERE TO MEET...THE BIRTHRIGHT COULD STILL BE AN ISSUE
THEY HAD PARTED IN HOSTILITY..AND WERE ABOUT TO MEET..WHEN THE CAMP OF GOD
AND JACOB'S WRESTLING WITH THE ANGEL OCCURED....
....
COME BACK COME BACK..IS THE CRY OF 'FRIENDS'
THE HOLY CITY EXPIERENCED AN EARTHQUAKE AND WAS DIVIDED INTO 3 PARTS........
JEWS,CHRISTIANS AND ISHMAEL/NATIONS SONS OF ABRAHAM...THE HOLY SEED OF CHRIST/BIRTHRIGHT
HAS BEEN GIVEN UNTO ALL MEN[ALL MEN SHALL BE BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE]....
HE WILL SETTLE DISPUTES AMONG STRONG NATIONS
AND THE DRAGON STOOD ON THE SHORE OF THE SEA= SANDS=NATIONS SEED OF ABRAHAM
LIKENED TO STARS OF HEAVEN AND SANDS.........DRAGON GIVE BEAST POWER AND AUTHORITY
HE OPENED HIS MOUTH AND BLASPHEMED GOD AND THOSE WHO LIVE IN HEAVEN[STARS]
BEAST OUT OF THE SEA
BEAST OUT OF THE EARTH=IN NUMBER THEY ARE LIKE THE SAND ON THE SEASHORE
YOU HAVE THOSE BORN AGAIN OF HEAVEN/STARS/MANCHILD SNATCHED UP TO THRONE....
AND YOU HAVE CARNAL/BEASTLY/FALLEN STARS/SANDS/THOSE FROM BELOW......NOW
THE SPIRITS IN OPERATION HAVE BEEN IN OPERATION ON MANY MEN THROUGHOUT THE BEGINNING
....BUT WHAT WE HAVE IN FRONT OF US IS THE END OF SUCH AN ARRANGEMENT......
WHERE THE OLD ORDER OF THINGS WILL PASS AWAY THAT THE NEW MAY ARRIVE....
AND IT IS DESCRIBED AS 'PANGS' AS OF CHILDBIRTH.........NOW WEKNOW THAT THEWOMAN
SHALL BE KEPT SAFE THROUGH THIS..PROVIDED SHE REMAIN A WORKER AT HOME
'DO NOT STARE AT ME BECAUSE I AM DARK, BECAUSE I AM DARKENED BY THE SUN..
MY MOTHERS SON'S WERE ANGRY WITH ME AND MADE ME TAKE CARE OF THE VINEYARDS;
MY OWN VINEYARD I HAVE NEGLECTED"
PLACE ME AS A SEAL OVER YOUR HEART AND ARM.......
MANY WATERS CAN NOT QUENCH LOVE[THEN FROM HIS MOUTH THE SERPENT SPEWED WATER LIKE A
RIVER]...........AND THE DRAGON STOOD ON THE SHORES OF THE SEA
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
-Rev 17
Let's pretend that this applies to a modern day city, what city would it be?
It's not Jerusalem. Jerusalem doesn't reign over the kings of the earth.
It's not Rome. The Catholic church doesn't reign over the kings of the earth.
It's probably not NYC which is just a proxy for the city of London.
It might be London. But, here there is another problem.
The city is in a desert.
Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness [desert]: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.--Rev 17
Why would a city in the desert rule over the kings of the world?
Ans: Oil
And, what desert does the world's oil come from?
Ans: Saudi Arabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:President_Nixon_shaking_hands_with_King_Faisal_of_Saudi_Arabia_following_talks_at_Riasa_Palace_,_07-15-1974.gif
YOU HAVE THOSE FROM ABOVE[CITY] WITH THE GOLDEN OIL AND RICHES OF HEAVEN..AND YOU HAVE THE
CITY BELOW WITH THE 'RICHES' OF THE EARTH...BUT THAT CITY ENCOMPASSES MUCH MORE
THAN JUST EARTHLY OIL[IF THE LIGHT THAT BE IN YOU BE DARKNESS HOW GREAT THAT DARKNESS]
THAT SAME DARK SPIRIT WAS OPERATIVE IN THE DARK AGES..AND INALL THAT KILL TRUTH
AND THINK THEY DO GOD A SERVICE[LIGHT IN YOU BE DARKNESS]
THERE ARE TWO WOMEN IN THE DESERT...I WILL WOO HER THERE..AND THERE I WILL GIVE HER BACK
HER VINYARDS..........
AND YOU WILL AGAIN SEE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED,BETWEEN
THOSE WHO SERVE GOD AND THOSE WHO DON'T MALAHI CH 3 DAY OF JUDGEMENT CH 4 DAY OF TH
E LORD
SURELY THE DAY IS COMING,IT WILL BURN LIKE A FURNACE. ALL THE ARROGANT AND
EVERY EVIL-DOER WILL BE STUBBLE, AND THT DAY THAT IS COMING WILL SET THEM ON FIRE
NOT A ROOT OR A BRANCH WILL BE LEFT TO THEM. BUT FOR YOU WHO REVERE MY NAME,
THE SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WILLRISE WITH HEALING IN IT'S WINGS,AND YOU WILL GO OUT LIKE
CALVES RELEASED FROM THE STALL. THEN YOU WILL TRAMPLE DOWN THE WICKED[TELL
THEM TO MAKE THEIR BACKS WIDE] THEY WILL BE ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET
ON THE DAY WHEN I DO THESE THINGS; SAYS THE LORD ALMIGHTY
Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2012, 05:43:50 PM
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The city is in a desert.
Why would a city in the desert rule over the kings of the world?
Ans: Oil
And, what desert does the world's oil come from?
Ans: Saudi Arabia
Iraq has many times more proven oil reserves than does Saudi Arabia, and it is "sweeter oil" not the heavy sulphur content of the kind found in Saudi Arabia. This places the city of question right where so much of the world's rebellious attitude towards God began, at the original location of Babylon about 50 miles to the south of present day Baghdad. Today it is a thriving & bustling tourist hot spot, in years to come it will become the "mother of harlots", she will be the madaam in command of her daughter harlot cities such as Tyre, and a few others, Jerusalem may be one of them as well, which is why the woman of Rev 12:6 needs to flee the city for its safety, yes, even Jerusalem appears to succumb to the harlotry of the head whore in Babylon, Iraq.
P.S. IT HAS BEEN OUR FATHER'S PRACTICE TO 'STACK THE DECK" AGAINST ALL ODDS....
AND THEN COME SHINING THROUGH...IT IS PART OF HIS WONDERFUL BEAUTIFUL NAME
TO ALWAYS NULLIFY THE WORKS OF THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS.......
DAVID AND GOLIATH...CAMP OF HOLY CITY SURROUNDED...EGYPT ISREAL DELIVERANCE...
THIS WAY THE GLORY IS ALL HIS..AND NOT ATRIBUTED TO STRENGTH OF FLESH OF MEN
BY MY SPIRIT REV 20;9
Quote from: sheila on October 06, 2012, 06:21:59 PM
P.S. IT HAS BEEN OUR FATHER'S PRACTICE TO 'STACK THE DECK" AGAINST ALL ODDS....
AND THEN COME SHINING THROUGH...IT IS PART OF HIS WONDERFUL BEAUTIFUL NAME
TO ALWAYS NULLIFY THE WORKS OF THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS.......
DAVID AND GOLIATH...CAMP OF HOLY CITY SURROUNDED...EGYPT ISREAL DELIVERANCE...
THIS WAY THE GLORY IS ALL HIS..AND NOT ATRIBUTED TO STRENGTH OF FLESH OF MEN
BY MY SPIRIT REV 20;9
:HeartThrob:
THE EARTH HELPED THE WOMAN BY OPENING IT'S MOUTH AND SWALLOWING THE FLOOD...
THE FLOOD IS A FLOOD OF ACCUSATIONS THAT SATAN SPEWS/SINS/LAW...THAT WERE SWALLOWED UP
IN VICTORY BY CHRIST'S FLESH/EARTH BODY...THE LITTLE CHILDREN WERE PARTAKERS OF FLESH
AND BLOOD..AND SO TOO HE PARTOOK.....HE BORE THE SINS AND TASTED DEATH FOR ALL MEN
THE EARTH CAN NOT BEAR A WOMAN THAT IS MARRIED BUT UNLOVED..AND HELPED IN THIS WAY..
CHRIST'S FLESH TOOK ON ALL THE SINS/ACCUSATION/DEATH...AND SWALLOWED UP DEATH
FOR ALL MEN
IN VICTORY...THE EARTH SHOOK AND THE ROCKS SPLIT..THE TOMB BROKE OPEN AND
THE BODIES OF MANY HOLY PEOPLE WERE RAISED TO LIFE.
THE SEVENTH ANGEL POURED OUT HIS BOWL INTO THE AIR AND OUT OF THE TEMPLE CAME
A LOUD VOICE FROM THE THRONE SAYING 'IT IS DONE![ FINISHED!]....A SEVERE EARTHQUAKE
HAPPENED AND THE GREAT CITY PLIT INTO THREE PARTS[ A HOUSE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF
CAN NOT STAND]..THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS COLLAPSED AND GOD REMEBERED BABYLON
THE GREAT....
BABYLON TELLS HERSELF I AM AND THERE IS NO-ONE ELSE..SHE DOES NOT REALIZE THE BRIDE/HIDDEN
ONE OF CHRIST EXISTS...A SPIRITUAL CITY DUE TO BE ESTABLISHED IN THE EARTH
THE VERY BEAST[CARNAL UNDERSTANDING] SHE RIDES WILL TURN ON HER AND DESTROY HER
THE BLOOD SHE SPILLED AS SHE SIT AND REIGNED OVER CARNAL UNDERSTANDING OF MEN
IN SPIRITUAL WARS BLOOD WILL CO ME UPON HER[SHE REFUSED THE TESTIMONY OF CHRIST THAT
TAKES AWAY ALL THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE. HER MAJIC SPELL/WITHCRAFT OF WHICH PRESUMPTOUSNESS
IS THE SAME[SO YOU HAVE ALL BEGUN RULING AS KINGS HAVE YOU? WITHOUT US?1 COR 4;8
ALREADY YOU HAVE ALL YOU WANT! ALREADY YOU HAVE BECOME RICH! YOU HAVE BECOME KINGS,AND
THAT WITHOUT US! HOW I WISH THAT YOU REALLY HAD BECOME KINGS THAT WE MAY BECOME KINGS WITH
YOU[SEE LAODECIA PRESUMPTOUSNESS] THAT IS SPEWED OUT OF HIS MOUTH....IT IS THE SAME
AS THE SPIRIT OF BABYLON IN OPERATION.
SEE DIVISONS IN THE CHURCH AND THE LETTERS TO THE CHURCH AS TO WHAT DIVIDES OFF FROM HIM
THE DIVIDED OFF IS SPEWED FROM HIS MOUTH AND IS PART OF BABYLON
'YOU SAY,I AM RICH,I HAVE ACQUIRED WEALTH AND DO NOT NEED A THING....REPENT
SEE PLAGUES WORKED TO BRING REPENTANCE
JUDE 1;8...SLANDER CELESTIAL BEINGS[STARS] THEY SPEAK ABUSIVELY OF WHAT THEY
DO NOT UNDERSTAND[CARNAL UNDERSTANDING FROM BELOW] BALAAM'S ERROR..
WITHOUT FRUIT[THE FRUIT YOU LONGED FOR IS GONE FROM YOU]
THEY SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE OF THOSE WHO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE[LOF]
FATHER GIVES OVER SOME MEN FOR IGNOBLE PURPOSE..THESE SPOKEN OF IN JUDE ARE
THOSE THAT BEAR AN IMAGE OF THE CORRUPT ONE/OFFSPRING OF VIPERS/TWICE DEAD
NOW PLEASE DISTINGUISH THE EVIL SPIRIT FROM THE MAN TAKEN CAPTIVE OF IT..AND KNOW
JESUS WILL SEPERATE THE TARE AND BURN IT AND DELIVER THE MAN TO BE RAISED UP
Yeah Sheila, magic/presumptousness/witchcraft and superstition too. It is incredible how plain as day it is to outsiders yet when you're in it you swear it's God's truth. If the light that is in you be darkness, wow yeah. Been hoping for my brethren who are still captive, that they will be set free from the lies as well. It is not a fun place to be. Truly they do not know what they are doing. :(
THEY WILL BE,LOMORRAH...BUT JESUS SAID 'BE CAREFUL THAT YE NOT DEVOUR ONE ANOTHER"
MAKES ME THINK ABOUT THE BIRDS[UNCLEAN SPIRITS] DEVOURING THE FLESH OF
GENERALS,ARMIES ETC.
AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THIS AGE YOU WILL SEE THE GOOD/EVIL CONTRAST
PROPHETS OF GOD/FALSE PROPHETS.. CHRISTS/ANTICHRISTS..........
HE IS SHOWING IN THE NATURAL WORLD THAT WHICH IS IN INVISIBLE/SPIRITUAL REALM
HE HAS HIS WITTNESSES IN HEAVEN AND EARTH
Quote from: Paul L on October 06, 2012, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2012, 05:43:50 PM
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The city is in a desert.
Why would a city in the desert rule over the kings of the world?
Ans: Oil
And, what desert does the world's oil come from?
Ans: Saudi Arabia
Iraq has many times more proven oil reserves than does Saudi Arabia, and it is "sweeter oil" not the heavy sulphur content of the kind found in Saudi Arabia. This places the city of question right where so much of the world's rebellious attitude towards God began, at the original location of Babylon about 50 miles to the south of present day Baghdad. Today it is a thriving & bustling tourist hot spot, in years to come it will become the "mother of harlots", she will be the madaam in command of her daughter harlot cities such as Tyre, and a few others, Jerusalem may be one of them as well, which is why the woman of Rev 12:6 needs to flee the city for its safety, yes, even Jerusalem appears to succumb to the harlotry of the head whore in Babylon, Iraq.
Yeah. That could be true if we have to wait a while, as you think. On the other hand, if not, I've named the most likely near term candidate. The woman in Rev 12:6 is a different woman.
What did you think of Kissinger's comment? Or are you one who considers physical Israel irrelevant, too?
THE WOMAN IN A BASKET.....A MEASURING BASKET.....A WOMAN SITS IN THE BAKET
'THIS IS WICKEDNESS" A LEAD LID OVER IT'S MOUTH.....TAKEN TO THE LAND OF SHINAR
BABYLON...TO BUILD A HOUSE FOR IT....FOLLOWED BY FOUR CHARIOTS COMING OUT FROM
TWO MOUNTAINS OF BRONZE[JUDGEMENT]
Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
What did you think of Kissinger's comment? Or are you one who considers physical Israel irrelevant, too?
Don't know anything about Kissinger's comment. What was that about?
But about Babylon in Iraq, as Rev 17:5 clearly states, she is the mother of harlot daughters, which can only mean there will be consorting cities in other nations whom she will seduce.
The city of Jerusalem will be as "Sodom & Egypt" (Rev 11:8) & will be so intolerant of faithful Jews, that the city fathers will have them killed, then they will make life so miserable to the followers of the two witnesses that the faithful remnant will need to flee the city to prevent receiving the same treatment, some say they will flee to Petra (Rev 12:6).
If you read through some of the Old Testament prophecies, many cities & peoples are counted as "playing the harlot", Isa 1:21, Isa 23:15, others are alluded to, all are daughters of the "head harlot" so to speak.
I would imagine many other cities of the world could be added to that list because harlot "daughters" is a plural word, meaning of course that Babylon must have more than one harlot daughter. So, with Tyre & Jerusalem explicitly enumerated in the list, we have a plural form of the word of at least two daughters, and if there are two, you can bet there will be more unspecified daughters. Use your imagination & it wouldn't be hard to come up with a few candidates.
Quote from: Paul L on October 06, 2012, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2012, 05:43:50 PM
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The city is in a desert.
Why would a city in the desert rule over the kings of the world?
Ans: Oil
And, what desert does the world's oil come from?
Ans: Saudi Arabia
Iraq has many times more proven oil reserves than does Saudi Arabia, and it is "sweeter oil" not the heavy sulphur content of the kind found in Saudi Arabia. This places the city of question right where so much of the world's rebellious attitude towards God began, at the original location of Babylon about 50 miles to the south of present day Baghdad. Today it is a thriving & bustling tourist hot spot, in years to come it will become the "mother of harlots", she will be the madaam in command of her daughter harlot cities such as Tyre, and a few others, Jerusalem may be one of them as well, which is why the woman of Rev 12:6 needs to flee the city for its safety, yes, even Jerusalem appears to succumb to the harlotry of the head whore in Babylon, Iraq.
Hey how did you know this, lol.
You said what I believe. When mystery babylon is rebuilt, she takes over and she conquers parts of Jerusalem, extending her empire, just like the old days.
No one would have believed the adversary entered Jerusalem, because of the strength of their God, but antichrist is crafty and comes in peaceably, by attacking the holy covenant and defiling the land, by peace he shall destroy many.
Quote from: thinktank on October 07, 2012, 12:54:38 AM
Quote from: Paul L on October 06, 2012, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2012, 05:43:50 PM
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The city is in a desert.
Why would a city in the desert rule over the kings of the world?
Ans: Oil
And, what desert does the world's oil come from?
Ans: Saudi Arabia
Iraq has many times more proven oil reserves than does Saudi Arabia, and it is "sweeter oil" not the heavy sulphur content of the kind found in Saudi Arabia. This places the city of question right where so much of the world's rebellious attitude towards God began, at the original location of Babylon about 50 miles to the south of present day Baghdad. Today it is a thriving & bustling tourist hot spot, in years to come it will become the "mother of harlots", she will be the madaam in command of her daughter harlot cities such as Tyre, and a few others, Jerusalem may be one of them as well, which is why the woman of Rev 12:6 needs to flee the city for its safety, yes, even Jerusalem appears to succumb to the harlotry of the head whore in Babylon, Iraq.
QuoteHey how did you know this, lol.
Read it in the Bible, stayed away from all the silly Bible Commentaries which do nothing more than confuse these issues.
QuoteYou said what I believe. When mystery babylon is rebuilt, she takes over and she conquers parts of Jerusalem, extending her empire, just like the old days.
No one would have believed the adversary entered Jerusalem, because of the strength of their God, but antichrist is crafty and comes in peaceably, by attacking the holy covenant and defiling the land, by peace he shall destroy many.
Your immediate above quote is 100% accurate, without a doubt we're on the same page. A lot more things need to change in the mid-east before we see the rebuilt Babylon which will become the world's financial center of commerce. A lot of present-day national boundaries & alliances in the mid-east will be in for sudden & lurching changes.
Quote from: sheila on October 06, 2012, 09:55:17 PM
THEY WILL BE,LOMORRAH...BUT JESUS SAID 'BE CAREFUL THAT YE NOT DEVOUR ONE ANOTHER"
MAKES ME THINK ABOUT THE BIRDS[UNCLEAN SPIRITS] DEVOURING THE FLESH OF
GENERALS,ARMIES ETC.
AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THIS AGE YOU WILL SEE THE GOOD/EVIL CONTRAST
PROPHETS OF GOD/FALSE PROPHETS.. CHRISTS/ANTICHRISTS..........
HE IS SHOWING IN THE NATURAL WORLD THAT WHICH IS IN INVISIBLE/SPIRITUAL REALM
HE HAS HIS WITTNESSES IN HEAVEN AND EARTH
:thumbsup:
:umnick:
Israel : Israeli Air Force shoots down unmanned Drone over Southern Airspace (Oct 6, 2012)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtPKKu2TSN8
Rev 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Rev 16:19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.
Rev 17:18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."
Rev 18:10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: "'Woe! Woe, O great city, O Babylon, city of power! In one hour your doom has come!'
and cry out: "'Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!' "Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: "'Woe! Woe, O great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin! Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.'" Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.
(Rev 18:16-21)
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
(Rev 19:2)
I am not sure that all these prophecies can be fulfilled by an Arab confederacy or caliphate, certainly not at this time. I think the "ruler of all the kings of the earth", "where our lord was crucified", who has "corrupted the earth with her fornication" is a mystical matrix of principalities that moves around ruling over the kingdoms of the earth through different kingdoms in different eras(see Rev 17:9-11). For over two thousand of years it was Rome. She(Babylon) sits upon seven hills. The hills represent kingdoms manifesting thoughout time. She is the "mother of all the harlots and abominations of the earth of the earth"- I don't think Islam qualifies for that title- evil as it is, it is only about 700 years old. The fact that the whole world mourns at her fall, "who will by our silks, our perfumes, etc....." and the references to her painted face and her fornications leads me to believe she situated over the western capitalist nations at the time of her fall, perhaps Rome again, or New York City, or perhaps, earthly Jerusalem, "where our Lord was crucified".
however, if you recall Psalms where the prophetic voice speaks of "Bashan"
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
(Psa 22:10-14)
The people of Bashan were the remnant of the giants(Joshua 12:4) who came with their king Og against the Israelites under Moses, and were utterly destroyed. "Strong bulls of Bashan" have surrounded me, IMO refers (figuratively) to the principalities and powers and the Cainites(Pharisees) that where watching as Jesus died on the cross displayed before all, "if they(principalities and powers) had understood(the hidden wisdom) they would not have crucified the Lord of glory". (1 Cor. 2)
These "principalities" acted through the Pharisees(you are of your father the devil, he was a murderer from the beginning).
Babylon (head of gold, ruled by man, ridden by the whore), is the evolutionary pinnacle of Cain, embodied by the devil(anti-Christ), in bed with the prostitute "religion of the day".
The hill of God(Zion) is described in scripture as a "high hill like Bashan"(Psalm 68:15)
Amos prophesied, "Hear this word, ye kin of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink". Likening the Israelites of unrighteous Samaria(another hill) to the Canaanites of Baashan who had once possessed the land.
Ezekiel prophesied,"Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan."
This is similar to Revelations, John's prophesy
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
(Rev 19:17-19)
The seven hills represent seven kings(kingdoms) upon which the woman sits, five had fallen already at the time of John's prophesy, one was currently in power as John's prophecy was given(Rome), the seventh was not yet and the beast was the eighth kingdom and was from the seven.(Revelations17:9) This, IMO supports Mystery Babylon as a more ubiquitous and aoinian figure of the "hill of Bashan", the "god of this age", and the "jezebel type" of religion that fornicates with the world and slays the saints and prophets. This type is PERFECTLY MANIFEST in the age as Herod(head of gold, beast) is ridden by Herodias(the harlot with a gold cup in her mouth drinking blood) and murders/martyrs John the Baptist at her request because of LUST FOR HERODIAS' DAUGHTER.
The city of god surrounded by the hordes of the nations(hills) is both a type and a historically recurring fact of the scriptures and the age.
As to whether there will be a final "great city" manifestation in Iran/Iraq- I am not saying that is not eventually possible, but it doesnt seem imminent or likely to me(but I aint nobody anyhow :o) :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
amen Eaglesway
Quote from: eaglesway on October 07, 2012, 05:04:58 AM
As to whether there will be a final "great city" manifestation in Iran/Iraq- I am not saying that is not eventually possible, but it doesnt seem imminent or likely to me(but I aint nobody anyhow :o) [/color]:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
It is not imminent, at least probably not within the lifetimes of the current posters at this site no matter what your age. Too many things with regard to national boundaries in the mid-east must change, for example, there must be two kings of the North in Daniel 11 who have careers in which the text suggests lasts for at least two generations of two Northern Kings who engage in combat with the southern King of Egypt. Today we don't see anything like that occurring.
When I read in the headlines of the tabloids that Dan 11:6 has been fulfilled at a time just a few short years prior to the 70th week of Damiel's prophecy commencing, then my interest will be piqued, not until then. You can be sure that wedding will be a well publicized event.
Daniel 11 and historical events
Much of the prophecy in Daniel 11 has already happened. Some of it is still in the future. This chart compares historical events with the prophecy so we can tell what are past, and what are future events.
FOR EXAMPLE
11:6, After some years they shall make an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north to make peace; but she shall not retain the strength of her arm, and he and his offspring shall not endure; but she shall be given up, and her attendants, her child, and he who got possession of her.
Ptolemy II's daughter, Berenice, married the north king Antiochus II Theos bringing a short lived alliance. Berenice's children were to be the new heirs to the throne. But Antiochus left later returned to his first wife and Berenice and her children were all killed.
What never happened (or is yet to happen)
The Verses following 36 cannot be linked with actual historical events. They tell of the last days(the time of the end) where the northern king will position himself as a god to be worshiped, and will be attacked by the Southern King.
After the attack, the Northern King will dominate and overtake many countries. Yet his time will also come to an end.
So now the question remains, why did this not happen? Why does it seem to be reserved for a future event?
The answer may be confusing at first, but Paul speaks of "the dispensation of the mystery" a time which was never prophesied. We are living in it now. It is an unforetold gap in prophetic history, put here by God to save the Gentiles until Israel is ready.
You can read more about this here.
http://www.christian-revolution.net/studyRender.php?studyID=29
We have established that we live in a dispensation/era of salvation through grace alone. Only Paul's message brings to light things about this dispensation. Not only are we free from the law of Moses, saved by grace alone, we also live in a "mystery."
Paul refers to this dispensation as the mystery because nothing about it has ever been to any prophet prior to Paul. Only with Paul do we find details about this grace era.
Ephesians 3:2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,
I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. Eph 3:9
Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
Colossians 1:26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.
To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Col 1:27
Ephesians 1:18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
and his incomparably great power for us who believe.
"mystery"
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
Hebrews 6:19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 6:20
Quote from: Molly on October 07, 2012, 08:31:39 PM
...
The answer may be confusing at first, but Paul speaks of "the dispensation of the mystery" a time which was never prophesied. We are living in it now. It is an unforetold gap in prophetic history, put here by God to save the Gentiles until Israel is ready.
You can read more about this here.
http://www.christian-revolution.net/studyRender.php?studyID=29
We have established that we live in a dispensation/era of salvation through grace alone. Only Paul's message brings to light things about this dispensation. Not only are we free from the law of Moses, saved by grace alone, we also live in a "mystery."
Paul refers to this dispensation as the mystery because nothing about it has ever been to any prophet prior to Paul. Only with Paul do we find details about this grace era.
Those who believe these things must believe Peter was wrong when he said:
Acts 3
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise
foretold of these days.
Peter said all the prophets had foretold
these days. This must refer to the present era of the church. Anyone who thinks there is an "unforetold gap in prophetic history" contradicts Peter. Not only that, but James as well. He said, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." [Acts 15:18]
IMO, there is no such thing as an "unforetold gap" except in the misty darkness of dispensationalist delusions.
Doug
Quote from: dougIMO, there is no such thing as an "unforetold gap" except in the misty darkness of dispensationalist delusions.
It was a mystery, that is, kept hidden, for eyes only, known only to the initiates--those who were personally told by God. Kept secret for ages and generations.
Is that so hard to understand?
This mystery is now being made known to the saints.
Quote from: Molly on October 07, 2012, 08:31:39 PM
Daniel 11 and historical events
Much of the prophecy in Daniel 11 has already happened. Some of it is still in the future. This chart compares historical events with the prophecy so we can tell what are past, and what are future events.
FOR EXAMPLE
11:6, After some years they shall make an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north to make peace; but she shall not retain the strength of her arm, and he and his offspring shall not endure; but she shall be given up, and her attendants, her child, and he who got possession of her.
Ptolemy II's daughter, Berenice, married the north king Antiochus II Theos bringing a short lived alliance. Berenice's children were to be the new heirs to the throne. But Antiochus left later returned to his first wife and Berenice and her children were all killed.
Sorry Mol, your trying to rewrite the writ of verse 6, so let me correct the record of what it actually states:
"And in the
end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north....." KJ
The context of the prophecy of this wedding is "end of years", not the end of the time of the very ancient Greek empire. You only need to read the actual words of the Bible, not the words of all those silly commentaries which are almost clueless about anything when it comes to most of prophecy.
Molly - Doug:
I've just gathered all my print-outs of posts by both of you (Prophecy and The Better Land threads).
I'm so grateful for the enormous amount of invaluable information (at least to me) re: Scriptures and history (religious and secular--past, current,---> and future(?) that you two have been sharing. THANK YOU!!!!!
You have saved me hours of research-- I'm old, time and energy mean a great deal to me. I've been able to connect many dots in one of my many ongoing studies: Natural first, then Spiritual (1 Cor 15:46)
May God richly bless all your efforts. Again, many thanks.
Quote from: Molly on October 07, 2012, 09:30:19 PM
Quote from: dougIMO, there is no such thing as an "unforetold gap" except in the misty darkness of dispensationalist delusions.
It was a mystery, that is, kept hidden, for eyes only, known only to the initiates--those who were personally told by God. Kept secret for ages and generations.
Is that so hard to understand?
This mystery is now being made known to the saints.
What's so hard to understand about: "all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days"? See Acts 3:24.
Peter said they spoke of "
these days," referring to the days of the apostles, and the whole church era, of which we are a part today. John said, "Little children, it is the
last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." [1 John 2:18] It was the "last time" then, and still is the "last time" today, and many more "antichrists" exist today. The whole church era is the "last time." There is no "time"
after the "last time." It is the final half of the 70th week; no "gap" exists between the 69th and 70th week as dispensationalism claims.
Paul explained what the "mystery" was. It has nothing to do with an alleged "gap." He wrote:
Ephesians 3:3-9
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The "mystery" is the revelation "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel."
Traditional Dispensationalism denies that Jews and Gentiles are "the same body." Some have even claimed they have different eternal destinies.
Paul explained the mystery in various ways. One could say there are several mysteries. In Colossians 1:27 he wrote, "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."
In 1 Corinthians 2:6-10 he wrote:
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
All these scriptures reveal bits of insight on the "mystery." There is nothing here that suggests or supports the idea of a "gap," or a "parenthesis" such as dispensationalism proposes, an "unforetold gap in prophetic history." That is just a "gap" in their understanding. They have been blinded, because they do not
believe what the apostles taught. They think Christ's kingdom is yet future. At Pentecost, Peter said Jesus was "made Christ." That means he fulfills the prophecies about a king of the line of David who reigns forever on the throne of David, over the twelve tribes of Israel. Peter said:
Acts 2
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both
Lord and
Christ.Dispensationalism has long denied that Jesus is reigning now upon the throne of David. But they were faced with a challenge upon this very point, with the development of "progressive dispensationalism." The authors of this modification of dispensationalism were Craig A. Blaising, Darrell L. Bock, and Robert L. Saucy.
This newer theory exposes some of the flaws in the doctrine of older varieties of dispensationalism.
Another aspect of the "mystery" is mentioned in Romans 11. It is about the "blindness" of Jews who reject the gospel. Actually this information was not specific to Paul because Peter said very similar things in Acts 3; those Jews who do not believe Jesus is the Christ, are cut off from Israel. Peter said this was stated in the law of Moses. He wrote, "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days." [Acts 3:22-24]
This is basically similar to what Paul wrote in Romans 11:25, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." But then, what happens? In the judgment, the "vail" of unbelief is taken away. Isaiah wrote: "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations." [Isaiah 25:7]
"All nations" includes Jews who were in unbelief. They will be raised up, with the people of Nineveh, and the queen of the south, as Jesus said. [Matthew 12:41-42]
Doug
Amen
Romans 16 and Romans 11 speak of the mystery, and Paul really fills this out for the Ephesians (and all believers)
In Ephesians we see...
1) The mystery of His kind intention, the gathering together of all things in Christ, God's kind intention for the ages.(Eph 1:9-11;Col.1:16-21;1 Cor 15:23-28;Romans 8:18-24)
2) The mystery of the ONE NEW MAN, a priesthood made of Jew and Gentile with NO DIVIDING WALL, having an inheritance with the Son of God- that inheritance being the ministry of delivering the WHOLE CREATION from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Eph 3:1-11; Romans chapters 9-11; Galatians Chapter 3)
3)The mystery of the Bride (Eph 5:32;Hebrews 12;Rev 12; Rev 21) IMO, a woman clothed in the sun, giving birth to a man-child, the fulfillment of Ephesian 4:7-16(until we all attain....)
4)The mystery of the gospel(Eph 6:19, Romans 16:25-27) inclusive of all of the above mysteries.
All of these mysteries are, in summation, the gospel, "euaggelion", eu-good/kind aggelion-announcement/news/message. They are the "mystery of the gospel"
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
(Eph 6:18-20)
Paul "made known" the mystery as an ambassador from the kingdom of heaven- as are we if we know what spirit we are of and are established in the basics and walking in the love of God.
the "restoration of the mysteries" is the "re-pouring" of the foundation doctrines of the apostles so that the temple of living stones can be rebuilt, "see to it that you make it according to the pattern", and the glory can settle once again upon the house of God- "the house of prayer for all peoples".
"If the foundations be removed, what shall the righteous do"(Psalm 11:3)
"And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in."
(Isa 58:10-12)
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
(Psa 51:17-18)
The mystery was made known to the apostles of Jesus. Through them and by the writings of the prophets, it was made known to the whole church,"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:" (Eph 1:9)
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(Joh 14:26)
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(Heb 5:12-14)
"first principles" is arche stoicheon arche- most important, primary stoicheon -foundation,elemental
The primary elements of, or the basic foundations of, or the "under-standing"- that which stands under, the foundation.
What is a mystery to the world is the basic foundation of our gospel, we just havent fully got the milk down yet is all :o)
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection(maturity/completion); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
(Heb 6:1-3)
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
(1Co 2:6-10)
everyone leaves out this one--
Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
everyone leaves out this one--
Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
:thumbsup:
I believe that's the part of the "process" we're in now.
A little to share here about the word "Mystery" as in "Mystery Babylon" (what I want to get to,) or as in "The Mystery of the Gospel." It has been used of things hidden and mysterious in the writings of the Hebrew prophets that are now understood since the coming of Jesus and the writings of the Greek scriptures. While some truth is in this, it doesn't do justice to the wealth of our spiritual life in union with God the Holy Spirit that He sends in Jesus' name. It is important to understand that not only is the true understanding of at least the 12 Mysteries in the New Testament dependent on the initiation into that understanding by the work of the Holy Spirit within us, we can only continue to perceive these mystical realities by the continuing work of the Holy Spirit. Detached from Him whatever we remember about them withers and dies.
I would point out it seems inconsistent to speak of a "Mystical Babylon" as being a literal city built or to be built with bricks and mortar, steel, stone, glass, and whatever other "literal" material goes into such a non-mystical city.
Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
everyone leaves out this one--
Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Actually, Doug's post included it and mine referred to it.
Quote from: reFORMer on October 08, 2012, 08:50:48 AM
A little to share here about the word "Mystery" as in "Mystery Babylon" (what I want to get to,) or as in "The Mystery of the Gospel." It has been used of things hidden and mysterious in the writings of the Hebrew prophets that are now understood since the coming of Jesus and the writings of the Greek scriptures.
I would point out it seems inconsistent to speak of a "Mystical Babylon" as being a literal city built or to be built with bricks and mortar, steel, stone, glass, and whatever other "literal" material goes into such a non-mystical city.
The operative Greek word here is
musterion which literally from the Greek means to "
shut (muo) the mouth" When the angel says to John the Revelator in Rev 17:7, "I will tell thee the mystery of the woman...", that simply means he is about to "open (unshut) his mouth and talk about it", that is
talk about the symbolism of the "woman" in question. So the angel opens his mouth & tells John what the "woman" is symbolic of and
that this is the complete explanation, no need to do that which so many Bible Commentaries do in a foolish endeavor to "interpret the interpretation".
Who are all these commentators who think they are so smart that they can interpret that which God has already clearly interpreted? God clearly unshuts his mouth & says the "woman" is the "city of Babylon", but foolish men in all their brilliance says God really means Rome or New York City, or some other wholly made up piece of fiction. What is this? Is God really so stupid that he doesn't even know what he means when he makes a statement? No wonder so many people don't believe in God, or the Bible, what with so many "Christians" running around saying that God does not really mean what he clearly states, they have a good excuse for their "unbelief" don't they? And we're supposed to be witnesses to an unbelieving world mired in Godlessness & we can't even get the facts straight about our own Holy Writ?
Or how about Dan 11:6? God clearly tells Daniel there will be a wedding in the "end of years" of the daughter of the King of the South to one of the Kings of the North, and what do Bible commentaries do? Foolishly they start ransacking the history of a decaying Greek empire in 300 BC for an interpretation that is in direct defiance of the plainly stated writ, "end of years".
No wonder so many will be caught up in absolute surprise when endtime prophecies start to be fulfilled, people's minds will be so filled with the pap of Replacement Theology (Preterism) instigated by "respected" theologians that there will be no quantity of clear statements of Holy Writ that will have any credibility.
as in the days of Noah..marrying and giving in marriage......those who marry will have tribulation
in the flesh....she Babylon is an adulteress and fornicates with the kings of the earth
but you are promised as a chaste virgin betrothed to Christ...I fear lest ye be seduced......away.....
marriages can be church and state unions.
now, i am not saying that I have a full understanding of this marriage spoken of.......
but I know there is a great evening meal where birds eat flesh of generals etc....and another
meal where the wedding supper of the Lord is and those who partake of it.
He said...I will make you jealous of a people who are NOT a nation...........
the Great multitude in white robes.
after this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count...
from every nation,tribe,people and language standing before the throne and in front of
the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands
and they cried out in a loud voice
salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne..and to the Lamb
these in white robes..who are they? and where did they come from?
these are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; they have washed their robes and made
them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Satan will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth[man is divided by race in the earth
into black,white,yellow and red] and further divided into nations etc...their is no such division
in Christ] nations deceived by Satan..into warring against the oneness of mankind in Christ
THEN I SAW A GREAT WHITE THRONE AND THE ONE WHO WAS SEATED ON IT
EARTH AND SKY FLED FROM HIS PRESENCE. [why would thee arth and sky flee from His presence?
old earth with it's divisions nation against nation has no place in Christ..old heavens/scattered
into four corners of heavens/prince of the air..who divides through differences of religions..
Look!!! The Holy city coming down from heaven!! New heavens! New earth!!! all four corners of what
was scattered in the heavens and on earth...ARE ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beautiful spiritual jeweled city of many colours...reflecting light as a rainbow...in it's
many and varied hueman. God and The Lamb are in the midst of the city..and are the light of it
The scroll of revelation is the apocalypse(apocalupsis), the opening/disclosure/unveiling of mysteries. It was disclosing them "to the churches" from the day it was written by John and distributed among the saints.
The writing says Babylon sits on seven hills. The the prophetic voice goes on to describe these seven hills and an eight as kingdoms distributed chronologically through time.
What hill is she sitting on today?
The Arab nations do not fulfill many of those prophesies- not even closely.
The prophecies of the book of revelation were written for the saints of 2000 years, not just the saints of the last 50 or 100 years.
I believe there is a literal fulfillment, I just believe we have to consider all the verses and what they say. I think the interpretation is incorrect, and that you are misidentifying Babylon as you fail to take into account the whole testimony of scripture(and of course, I am sure you feel the same way about my interpretation, I intend no offense)
Babylon has been a MYSTERY since time immemorial- she is not Iraq/Iran, when she falls the whole world will be AmAZEd AND TERRIFIED. BEHOLD IN ONE HOUR BABYLON IS FALLEN, IN HER IS FOUND ALL THE BLOOD OF THE SAINTS, she is the GREAT CITY known and feared by ALL.
Who could that be, Bagdad, Tehran..... I don't think so. The United States just bombed Bagdad into rubble and there are a half dozen nations that could bully the Iraqis and Iranians.
IMO, The whole world will never follow Islam. Not even the majority of it. I think we are on the precipice of major world changes and shifts and there are many possibilities on the horizon, but I think Babylon the Great is something MUCH MORE than the historical and geographical city.
One can't just cherry pick the few verses that fit one view or another, we have to consider all that is written of "her"- that "great city", the "harlot"- Mystery Babylon.
Do you really think that the revelation of John was written for the last few years of the age?
And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
(Rev 22:6-7)
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
(Rev 22:9-10)
I am just saying that perhaps the time transcendent truths hidden in the scroll of John's revelation are as important as any literal fulfillment, since according to the TESTIMONY OF the SCROLL ITSELF the "time is at hand" 2000 years ago when it came out. The fact that preterists reject the literal aspects and that fundamentalists throw out the figurative aspects is just a testament to the ambition, immaturity and blindness of both. If you want simple.....
Let the one who has ears to hear, hear WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCHES.
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
--Rev 1
You can read this whole book as occurring in the context of John being taken away in the Spirit and shown what will be at the end times, in the Lord's day, and leading up to it.
Many references are made in the book of Revelation to the book of Daniel. We are told the book of Daniel is sealed until the end times. So also would the book of Revelation be sealed.
Given the book is prophecy, when John is taken away in Spirit, he is told the time is at hand, when all these things shall be fulfilled. This is because he is taken to that time, the end of the age, in Spirit.
Write this to the churches now, he is instructed, about what shall be at the
end of times. --which he did and the book has survived to this day.
Again, the Lord's day is not Saturday or Sunday. It is the day of the LORD which occurs at the end of the age. This is a book of prophecy about THAT day, as the Bible refers to it, the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to rule and reign on earth with his saints.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
--Daniel 12
Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2012, 06:49:12 PM
Many references are made in the book of Revelation to the book of Daniel. We are told the book of Daniel is sealed until the end times. So also would the book of Revelation be sealed.
The book described in Revelation 5:1 is sealed with seven seals. The whole chapter is devoted to the question, who is worthy to open the seals?
For many, the person who unseals the book of Revelation is John N. Darby. Or one of his followers. Others suppose rationalist German critics unravelled its mysteries. Or, insert your favourite commentator. But in Revelation 5:12, Jesus Christ is the only one found worthy, in heaven and earth, to open the seals of the book. As I understand this, it teaches that to understand the book of Revelation, our minds need to be enlightened by Christ. He unlocks and unseals the book to us, not Mr. Darby, or any other person; only Jesus can open our minds to its meaning.
On the question about whether Babylon in chapters 17 and 18 is a literal city, Daniel's prophecies illuminate the significance of Babylon in Revelation. Daniel acknowledged that God is the one who reveals secrets.
Daniel 2:27-30
Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;
But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
Daniel was given the true interpretation of the king's dream. It reveals the meaning of Babylon in prophecy.
Daniel 2:31-35
Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Here is a great image, and as Daniel explains the vision, the image represents all the great human kingdoms, that are eventually broken, and reduced to chaff, and the kingdom of God takes their place.
Daniel 2:36
This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
The image's head represented Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom, called Babylon, implying that the whole image can be called "Babylon." This underlies John's use of the term Babylon in Revelation, IMO. It represents the world, human civilization. The image described in Daniel 2 includes all human governments and society.
In Revelation 11:8, John alludes to this "great city," as symbolic of the whole world, outside Jerusalem. Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem; he "suffered without the gate." [Heb. 13:12]
Jerusalem itself is the holy city of the saints, the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city," which represents the church, the heavenly Jerusalem.
This also leads to the proper interpretation of the wilderness, in Rev. 12:6, 14, and Rev. 17:3.
Those who have "escaped the corruption that is in the world," [2 Pet. 1:4] come out of Babylon, and go to a spiritual "wilderness."
The sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness before they came to the promised land is a metaphor and a figure of the church's present state. [1 Cor. 10:1-11; 2 Pet. 2:1]
Egypt and Sodom were places from which God's people escaped. They represent the bondage of sin, and the world. The world's social systems, governments, philosophies, and religions are represented by the great city Babylon, in Revelation 18:1-4. Verse 4 says, "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
In Rev. 12:6 and 14 the woman flees to the wilderness, and has a place prepared by God, and is nourished there. Jesus said to his disciples, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." [John 14:2-3] The place prepared for her by God represents the spiritual environment in which Christians dwell in all ages of the church. Like the Israelites who camped in many different places in the wilderness, the church has persevered through various spiritual and cultural environments, over the centuries, and today exists in all nations.
The "place" prepared for the woman in Rev. 12:6 and Rev. 12:14 is no doubt the same as the "place" Jesus prepares for the saints in John 14, which is called a wilderness, as it is separate and distinct from the world.
And in Rev. 17:3, John said he was taken to the wilderness, from where he saw the woman who sat on the beast. He said, "And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth." [Rev. 17:5]
From the wilderness, a place outside of, and separate from the world-system, John described the woman riding the beast. That is how we need to understand it too. The "fornication" of the woman refers to her involvement with the world, and its politics, governments, nations, and society.
James wrote: "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." [James 4:4]
Doug
Quote from: dougThe image's head represented Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom, called Babylon, implying that the whole image can be called "Babylon."
Yes, Babylon is the head [mind] of the system--but those who rule the world under this system [through this mind] change as we move through history,--the seven empires, and the eighth a revival of the seventh-- and Daniel is also telling us the history of Babylon-from the beginning to the end of this age.
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
The beast that was and is no longer is the eighth king, but it belongs with the seven kings and goes to its destruction.
--Rev 17: 10,11
Quote from: reFORMer on October 08, 2012, 08:50:48 AM
A little to share here about the word "Mystery" as in "Mystery Babylon" (what I want to get to,) or as in "The Mystery of the Gospel." It has been used of things hidden and mysterious in the writings of the Hebrew prophets that are now understood since the coming of Jesus and the writings of the Greek scriptures. While some truth is in this, it doesn't do justice to the wealth of our spiritual life in union with God the Holy Spirit that He sends in Jesus' name. It is important to understand that not only is the true understanding of at least the 12 Mysteries in the New Testament dependent on the initiation into that understanding by the work of the Holy Spirit within us, we can only continue to perceive these mystical realities by the continuing work of the Holy Spirit. Detached from Him whatever we remember about them withers and dies.
I would point out it seems inconsistent to speak of a "Mystical Babylon" as being a literal city built or to be built with bricks and mortar, steel, stone, glass, and whatever other "literal" material goes into such a non-mystical city.
I thought I'd share this. We do not come from the same perspective, but since you speak of the word "mystery"
That mystery babylon is a mystery.
The name of that city is Babylon. So what's the mystery?
It brings me back to Pauls words, behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep.
So to me mystery babylon is a resurrection of the city of Babylon, to coincide with the resurrection of the king of Babylon. So the 8th head, lives in mystery Babylon.
The 8th head beast makes war with the saints. So this fills up the beasts city, Babylon with lots of prophet and saint blood. So she sheds and drinks blood of all those upon the earth.
Because that great city has now engulfed and conquered Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified, then God in Zechariah splits up Jerusalem into 3 parts to save the city, also said in revelation about mystery babylon.
The bible uses great city to describe the city of Nineveh also. Which means great city is a capital city.
Since the king in Daniel has infiltrated and stolen the holy temple placing the abomination of desolation, there, then Jerusalem becomes the new headquaters of Babylon.
Jesus warns to flee Judea, when this happens.
Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2012, 06:49:12 PM
Many references are made in the book of Revelation to the book of Daniel. We are told the book of Daniel is sealed until the end times. So also would the book of Revelation be sealed.
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Except for the wedding of Dan 11:6?
Quote from: thinktank on October 08, 2012, 11:04:36 PM
The name of that city is Babylon. So what's the mystery?
It brings me back to Pauls words, behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep.
So to me mystery babylon is a resurrection of the city of Babylon, to coincide with the resurrection of the king of Babylon. So the 8th head, lives in mystery Babylon.
The 8th head beast makes war with the saints. So this fills up the beasts city, Babylon with lots of prophet and saint blood. So she sheds and drinks blood of all those upon the earth.
Because that great city has now engulfed and conquered Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified, then God in Zechariah splits up Jerusalem into 3 parts to save the city, also said in revelation about mystery babylon.
The bible uses great city to describe the city of Nineveh also. Which means great city is a capital city.
Since the king in Daniel has infiltrated and stolen the holy temple placing the abomination of desolation, there, then Jerusalem becomes the new headquaters of Babylon.
Jesus warns to flee Judea, when this happens.
You make very interesting points. Yes, so what does happen when apparently in the middle of the 70th week the city of Babylon is destroyed by the ten horned beast as pointed out in Rev 17:16. So now the False Prophet needs a new staging ground for 3 1/2 more years doesn't he? So he invades Jerusalem, murders the 2 Witnesses, chases their faithful followers out of the city of Jerusalem into the wilderness, and now has the entire city all to himself setting it up as his new capitol to replace the one he just firebombed in Iraq. Cool, I can dig that scenario.
Quote from: Paul L on October 08, 2012, 11:07:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2012, 06:49:12 PM
Many references are made in the book of Revelation to the book of Daniel. We are told the book of Daniel is sealed until the end times. So also would the book of Revelation be sealed.
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Except for the wedding of Dan 11:6?
haha That already happened. You are relying on a translator that you think is saying that is happening in the end times. It is not, nor do the Hebrew words say that. I will go into that in detail if you make me, but there is so much more to be concerned about.
Obviously, I think the Lord Jesus might be unsealing this scripture right now. But, let's continue with our dialogue. You see, when he unseals it, it happens. That's why we can understand it.
Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2012, 11:57:49 PM
Quote from: Paul L on October 08, 2012, 11:07:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2012, 06:49:12 PM
Many references are made in the book of Revelation to the book of Daniel. We are told the book of Daniel is sealed until the end times. So also would the book of Revelation be sealed.
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Except for the wedding of Dan 11:6?
haha That already happened. You are relying on a translator that you think is saying that is happening in the end times. It is not, nor do the Hebrew words say that. I will go into that in detail if you make me, but there is so much more to be concerned about.
Obviously, I think the Lord Jesus might be unsealing this scripture right now. But, let's continue with our dialogue. You see, when he unseals it, it happens. That's why we can understand it.
What translator is that of which you speak?
If I read it directly from the Bible & it clearly states this wedding occurs
in the end of years, what is there to translate? Or maybe you are suggesting God has spoken directly to you & informed you he's changed his mind about this wedding date? That he wrote those words intending to deliberately mislead all of us except yourself? Come on, you know that hasn't happened. So what really do you think? "Let's continue with our dialogue", my challenge, your counter......
Daniel 11:6 "After some years..."
New International Version (©1984)
After some years, they will become allies.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"Some years later an alliance will be formed between the king of the north and the king of the south.
English Standard Version (©2001)
After some years they shall make an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"After some years they will form an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the South will come to the king of the North
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
After a few years the southern and northern kings will make an alliance.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And at the end of some years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north
American King James Version
And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north
American Standard Version
And at the end of years they shall join themselves together; and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north to make
Douay-Rheims Bible
And after the end of years they shall be in league together: and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north
Quote from: eagleswayActually, Doug's post included it and mine referred to it.
This is what concerns me. Nobody here seems to be agreeing with me that as a part of God's plan the Jews have been blinded, for our benefit, and at the time of the end, when the fulfillment of the Gentiles has happened, the Jews will be brought back into the fold.
THIS is what Paul is talking about in Romans [9,10]11. In Romans 11 he is very clear, Jesus will return, and they will be saved. This is the promise God made to the tribe of Judah. Romans 11 is an end time prophecy. It is not yet happened.
And, for this reason, instead of boasting against them, we must honor them as our brothers, now, before the time of the end, because as He said,
I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt. All the families on earth will be blessed through you." Gen 12:3
And, They are going to really need the help of the church during the time of Jacob's trouble.
AN END TIME PROPHECY:
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed,
that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.--Rom 11
I totally accept and rejoice in God's mercy shown unto all. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess..
all I can do is pray for all mankind...and yes, God called out a special people for His name..the Isrealites..
but the kingdom is like leaven hidden in a basket..........the blindness of Isreal allowed mercy to the gentiles
and the blindness of the gentile saints[christendom] allows mercy to be shown to all mankind
the saints were overcome..and God planned it so...that no flesh should boast...the called out into
special relationship..fall flat on their faces..time and again..so that 'sinners' can be welcomed in.
it is the way of leaven...whether it be of sin or righteousness and mercy in Christ.
for God bound them all up in sin..to have mercy on all.
ALL MEN. WILL BE BROUGHT BACK INTO THE FOLD...EVEN THE ONE DOOMED TO CUTTING OFF....
IN ORDER THAT THE SCRIPTURES MAY BE FUFILLED. For his body possessed of the evil spirit....
was an example of the corrupt image[satan/man of sin/son of perdition] that all men have bore as the
corruptible image to lesser or greater extent...sin in the flesh.....
And so too, all men shall bear the incorruptible image of the son of God.
JESUS WILL RETURN AND ALL MEN SHALL BE SAVED.
.
.
Quote from: Molly on October 09, 2012, 02:07:13 AM
Daniel 11:6 "After some years..."
New International Version (©1984)
After some years, they will become allies.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"Some years later an alliance will be formed between the king of the north and the king of the south.
English Standard Version (©2001)
After some years they shall make an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"After some years they will form an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the South will come to the king of the North
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
After a few years the southern and northern kings will make an alliance.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And at the end of some years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north
American King James Version
And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north
American Standard Version
And at the end of years they shall join themselves together; and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north to make
Douay-Rheims Bible
And after the end of years they shall be in league together: and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north
Mol, I'd suggest you become proficient in the use of a good concordance if you want to try and hang a wedding date of 2300 BC on using half of the above translations. Stong's Concordance would be a good place to start, it's online. Look up word #'s 7093 & 8141. The Chaldee/Hebrew do not even remotely suggest "some" or "few" being placed before the word "
years", it is bogus translating, it is "
end". I understand you do not want this to be the case because of some other conflict this creates with your view of Dan 11, but God is not waiting on your approval, nor mine, God simply inspired the Chaldee/Hebrew 7093 for the English word "end", and I just take God at his word. I don't pick and choose my translations out of convenience, you shouldn't either.
Quote from: Molly on October 09, 2012, 02:34:56 AM
Quote from: eagleswayActually, Doug's post included it and mine referred to it.
as a part of God's plan the Jews have been blinded, for our benefit, and at the time of the end, when the fulfillment of the Gentiles has happened, the Jews will be brought back into the fold.
THIS is what Paul is talking about in Romans [9,10]11. In Romans 11 he is very clear, Jesus will return, and they will be saved. This is the promise God made to the tribe of Judah. Romans 11 is an end time prophecy. It is not yet happened.
I'm not real involved in this thread, but I totally agree. It's the Plan of the Ages. I don't care to explain it by labels or try to put it in some eschatological category, but according to my understanding of the scriptures.
First Israel (throughout the OT and beginning of the New, pre-cross).
After the cross, the elect of the Gentiles (plus a few Jews as part of the elect who are given eyes to see) while the rest are blinded; "..their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same vail at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn..". Only in Christ is that veil removed, and yet according to the Jewish religion, Yashua is not (as yet) seen as the Messiah.
Within that elect, those few given faith to believe in this age, there is neither Jew nor Gentile; both alive and having become one in Christ. His body.
Time of Gentiles fulfilled, all Israel saved.
Blessings.
Paul--
We see in the very next chapter of Daniel, the reference to "the time of the end." There is no controversy about this. Everyone agrees this is referring to the end of the age.
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Dan 12
TWO HEBREW WORDS
"the time of the end"
‛êth qêts
"time"
H6256
עת
‛êth
ayth
From H5703; time, especially (adverbially with preposition) now, when, etc.: - + after, [al-] ways, X certain, + continually, + evening, long, (due) season, so [long] as, [even-, evening-, noon-] tide, ([meal-], what) time, when.
[of the] "end"
H7093
קץ
qêts
kates
Contracted from H7112; an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix) after: - + after, (utmost) border, end, [in-] finite, X process.
No one disputes "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:9 refers to the end times, even though other translations are possible of these two words. Fourteen different translations all translate it with the same words: the time of the end, or the end times or the end time. All have the same meaning.
Why not use the same phrase, the same two words in Daniel 11, then, if the meaning was to be the end times? BECAUSE DANIEL 11:6 USES TWO DIFFERENT WORDS. This is why Daniel 11:6 is translated so differently [it might seem] by different translators. If Daniel 11:6 was talking about the end times, the same two words would have been used as used in Daniel 12:9.
After some years, they will become allies. Dan 11:6
TWO DIFFERENT HEBREW WORDS
"after some years"
qêts shâneh
"after"
H7093
קץ
qêts
kates
Contracted from H7112; an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix) after: - + after, (utmost) border, end, [in-] finite, X process
"some years"
H8141
שׁנה שׁנה
shâneh shânâh
shaw-neh', shaw-naw'
(The first form being in plural only, the second form being feminine); from H8138; a year (as a revolution of time): - + whole age, X long, + old, year (X -ly).
So here in Daniel 11:6 we see a bit of discretion used by the translators. They alternatively translate "after some years, " "some years later," "in the end of years," "after a few years,""at the end of some years," and "after the end of years."
You can see from the words used and the context why they use their discretion. But, it all means the same thing--after a period of years, the king and the daughter of the other king get together.
Nowhere does this refer to the end times.
Yes, but the time of the end stretches out over many years, as Doug demonstrated, Peter and Paul both referred to the the last times as being in their present. John spoke in revelation to the churches and the Spirit spoke to the churches, so that THE BRIDE WOULD BE PURE so that the SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE COULD SPEAK TOGETHER, "COME,DRINK FREELY OF THE WATER OF LIFE." And let the one who thirsts come. It is clear and UNDENIABLE that the scroll, in the very least, OPENS TO THE CHURCHES and ENDS TO THE CHURCHES. My point is not so much to disagree with any particular literal interpretation, it is to point out that revelation is PRIMARILY, an "aionian" message to the Bride, the Body, the Overcomers in Christ, the City of God, the Messengers of the Gospel, the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST, the "aionian gospel".
Personally, I do believe in literal fulfillment- I just believe it is primarily about the church manifesting in the end times. I believe in a literal anti christ, But only AS A MANIFESTATION OF THE SPIRIT OF ANTI_CHRIST which has been in the world since the gospel first began according to John- AND THERE WERE ALREADY MANY. I believe in a literal Babylon, but SHE HAS BEEN RIDING THE HILLS THROUGH SEVEN WORLD KINGDOMS ALREADY AND ONLY ONE OF THEM BORE THE ACTUAL NAME BABYLON.
If Babylon is the Arab caliphate then who is the beast? If the beast turns and eats her, as the prophesy details literally, who fills that role? Honest questions, really- I don't claim to know or forsee exactly who the final manifestation of Babylon will be in this age. It could be an as yet unforeseen confederation or kingdom.
What I do see clearly is that if we REALLY UNDERSTAND THE MESSAGE OF JOHN"S REVELATION we would be tearing up Ephesians, Philipians and Colosians getting understanding about how to become the Bride, how to ADORN OURSELVES and how to get our vessels full of oil.
Like I said before, WANT SIMPLE?
When it comes to understanding Revelation
"LET THE ONE WHO HAS EARS TO HEAR, HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCHES!"
Quote from: jabcat on October 09, 2012, 03:40:20 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 09, 2012, 02:34:56 AM
Quote from: eagleswayActually, Doug's post included it and mine referred to it.
as a part of God's plan the Jews have been blinded, for our benefit, and at the time of the end, when the fulfillment of the Gentiles has happened, the Jews will be brought back into the fold.
THIS is what Paul is talking about in Romans [9,10]11. In Romans 11 he is very clear, Jesus will return, and they will be saved. This is the promise God made to the tribe of Judah. Romans 11 is an end time prophecy. It is not yet happened.
I'm not real involved in this thread, but I totally agree. It's the Plan of the Ages. I don't care to explain it by labels or try to put it in some eschatological category, but according to my understanding of the scriptures.
First Israel (throughout the OT and beginning of the New, pre-cross).
After the cross, the elect of the Gentiles (plus a few Jews as part of the elect who are given eyes to see) while the rest are blinded; "..their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same vail at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn..". Only in Christ is that veil removed, and yet according to the Jewish religion, Yashua is not (as yet) seen as the Messiah.
Within that elect, those few given faith to believe in this age, there is neither Jew nor Gentile; both alive and having become one in Christ. His body.
Time of Gentiles fulfilled, all Israel saved.
Blessings.
I agree with Romans 11;25 entirely, and Romans 9 and Galatians 3 and 4. IT HAS BEGUN and IS HAPPENING- it is just not yet FULFILLED. ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED. Of course- eventually EVERYONE will be saved. The plan of the ages requires more stages and we all know that this is not the last age. IMO,The ONE NEW MAN(Eph 4, Rev 12, that will come out of the woman will be the priesthood that reconciles the rest of Israel and the rest of all mankind. However, it remains to be seen what that salvation entails and how it will transpire- we arent given the details.
In this age it is about this:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace,
who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for
to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might
reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For
through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are
built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(Eph 2:13-22)
There we see again Colossians "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. "
(Col 1:20)
Ephesians 2:16 .....that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross
STAGE ONE OF THE RECONCILIATION OF ALL THINGS IS THE CHURCH, which is the Body and the One New Man- Jew and Gentile. The remaining stages are seen through a glass darkly.
This also has ALREADY BEGUN but is NOT YET FULFILLED. If you want a prophetic time clock, another good one is WATCH The CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST. When she BEGINS TO GLOW and TRAVAIL then you know that the end is near so REJOICE, GO UP ON THE ROOF, LOOK UP! Ephesians 4 is just as prophetic as anything else as far as I am concerned.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
(Eph 4:11-16)
Notice to whom the promises Jesus makes in the book of revelations are made. "To Him who overcomes". Figuring out who the devil is or who the anti-Christ is is not overcoming. Understanding what the Bride of Christ is and getting CLEANED AND PRESSED, is overcoming (How else will we get to be "without spot wrinkle or blemish" :Pray:).
If you think about it, as you said Molly, Daniel and Revelation are about the "time of the end"- the end of this age, we have been in it for a while and will be in it for a while more. But also Daniel and Revelation are about the Bride and the Overcomers
Almost EVERY WORD JESUS SPEAKS TO JOHN IS FOR THE BRIDE AND THE OVERCOMERS. The rest of His words are to EXHORT THOSE WHO ARE FALLING AWAY TO REPENT. THE PRE-EMINENT PURPOSE OF THIS AGE IS THE PREISTHOOD, the ONE NEW MAN, the CITY OF GOD- ALL OF THESE ARE ABOUT THE RECONCILIATION OF THE REST OF THE CREATION(ROMANS 8).
We talk in heated tones about how people are back slid and not ready etc etc. I don't kno if we realize that the body of Christ is the ark of the Lord in these last days. What deliverance there is will be in the house of God for those who are in the secret place of the Most High. For others there will be grace to "do exploits"--- in that portion of Daniel it also says that people will join them(the people who kno their God) in hypocrisy, Why? Because of the power and presence of Gd in the midst. For others there will be grace to "lay down their lives" when the great purges of Christians begins again. The plan of the ages IS NOW for everyone and always has been. So- are we to debate what WILL BE? as we always do? (Tell us Lord, When cometh the kingdom to Israel?) or will we PRESS IN TO WHAT IS NOW, the glory of God in the tabernacle of the Spirit, living stones, fitly joined together in the bond of peace and the mortar of brotherly love- ah, there is the rub, for that to happen we must GET HOLD of what we need to be GOTTEN HOLD OF :o) (Draw nigh unto God and He will draw nigh unto you)
Think about it, where did the persecutions occur. WHERE THE CHURCH WAS WALKING IN VICTORY!
It will be the manifestation of the body of Christ in glory under the Headship of Jesus in the latter rain that will PROVOKE the prophecies we speak of as if it is all about the devil and the forces of Anti Christ, but IT IS NOT. It is a revelation of GOD, VICTORIOUS IN HIS PEOPLE, the MANFESTATION OF TRUTH ARISING TO MEET HIM IN CLOUDS OF GLORY.
You see this played out OVER AND OVER. The reign of Jehoshaphat.....AFTER the RESTORATION OF ISRAEL under his righteous reign, ALL THE ARMIES OF THE CANAANITES SURROUNDED JEruSALEM......... the reign of Hezekiah, AFTER THE RESTORATION OF ISRAEL under his righteous reign, the ASSYRIANS under BENHADAD came and surrounded the HOLY CITY and Rabshekah breathed out threats against the Lord and His people......
IMO, It will be AFTER THE GLORY RETURNS TO THE TEMPLE(of living stones) that we will see most of the final literal fulfillments of the prophecies concerning this age- WHICH IS ABOUT THE CHURCH :o)
Wallid Shoebat on the harlot with mystery Babylon on her forehead:
the beast is the governmental aspect of this antichrist empire. the beast therefore would be the caliphate.
the harlot woman city is the spiritual driver of this beast mechanism=mystery babylon
she is the spiritual source that influences these different ethnic peoples
In Isaiah 21 Babylon is described as the desert by the sea
she sits in a literal desert
the harlot is a provider of wine that intoxicates the nations [rev 17:2]
she holds this wine in a chalice
the kings of the earth commit adultery with her
she is drunk with the blood of the saints
this prostitute woman is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth [rev 17]
she exists geographically in a desert region
what wine intoxicates the earth? what desert nation is the geographical womb where this false harlot religion was birthed?
he proposes that the harlot uses both islam and oil as her wine through which she seduces the nations of the world into committing spiritual adultery with her and compromising Israel.
rev 18 she is judged because of her maddening influence on those who partake of her adulterous doctrines. the religion of the harlot has the same effect as the oil, the financial dimension--the world is addicted to oil.
the merchants of the earth have grown rich on the abundance of her delicacies [rev 18]
Isa 34 Its streams shall be turned into pitch and its dust into brimstone; its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall ascend forever.
Isaiah predicts the burning of pitch=crude oil. No simile. Its land becomes burning pitch.
the harlot city in rev 18--the kings of the earth shall lament for her when they see the smoke of her burning.
Jer 51:7 babylon was a golden cup in the LORD's hand that made all the earth drunk. The nations drank her wine; therefore, the nations are deranged.
God makes her drink from the very cup she used to establish her power. She will be burned in one hour. She will fall. The kings of the earth will weep for her oil.
This judgment extends from Teman to Dedan [Arabia]--Eze 25:12, 13
She will be consumed by fire. woe woe O great city, Babylon, in one hour your doom has come.=rev 18
The judment on the harlot is permanent. All signs of human habitation will be permanently eliminated. It will be a home for demons=rev 18
Jer 50:39 desert creatures and hyenas will live there
Isa 34:14 it will be a habitation of jackals.
The destruction of Babylon will be absolute. I will sweep it with the broom of destruction Isa 12:15--> sounds nuclear
Rev 18 tells us that the beast hates the harlot. It will ultimately turn on her, killing her, devouring her, and burning her body with fire.
The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. Rev 18
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth. Rev 17
Would muslims destroy Mecca? Yes, they have before. Turks and Persians resent Arab imperialism. The prophecy implies that a coalition of radical muslims will destroy Arabia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjHzBK7UtRg
Walliet makes some great points, but the wine the harlot drinks is the blood of the saints, I think he is definitely wrong on that point.
And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
(Rev 17:6)
Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2012, 07:22:16 AM
Walliet makes some great points, but the wine the harlot drinks is the blood of the saints, I think he is definitely wrong on that point.
And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
(Rev 17:6)
Yes, he says both--she controls both islam and oil--the wine is both the blood of the saints and literal crude oil.
I would say Rome(-vatican RC) is the harlot(or a primary historical manifestation of her), and that Europe is the beast(same). The harlot, the "queen of heaven", rode the beast for a millennium, while making herself drunk on the blood of the saints and the wine of her immorality(wealth and power), but for several hundred years now, the beast has been eating the harlot, who now no longer rides anyone, but has been "consumed" into the 666 system, as have all her daughter harlots, because she is the mother of harlots, under a head of gold(papal authority)
The only thing that makes me hold back on that is the prophecy that her fall will come in one hour before the whole world- that doesnt fit, so abide the possibility of a further manifestation of her to come, but she could still be Rome- events could yet swing THAT way, should a charismatic, dynamic, spiritually empowered pope arise I would be raising an eyebrow at that.
Europa is a name from Greek mythology:
http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/Zeus_s_Lovers/Europa_/europa_.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)
Europa was abducted by Zeus who had taken the form of a bull.
Bull=beast.....????
Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2012, 07:41:25 AM
I would say Rome(-vatican RC) is the harlot(or a primary historical manifestation of her), and that Europe is the beast(same). The harlot, the "queen of heaven", rode the beast for a millennium, while making herself drunk on the blood of the saints and the wine of her immorality(wealth and power), but for several hundred years now, the beast has been eating the harlot, who now no longer rides anyone, but has been "consumed" into the 666 system, as have all her daughter harlots, because she is the mother of harlots, under a head of gold(papal authority)
The only thing that makes me hold back on that is the prophecy that her fall will come in one hour before the whole world- that doesnt fit, so abide the possibility of a further manifestation of her to come, but she could still be Rome- events could yet swing THAT way, should a charismatic, dynamic, spiritually empowered pope arise I would be raising an eyebrow at that.
If Rome falls in one hour, it will not affect me in the slightest way--in terms of how my life or even my day will go on as usual. I would weep over her the way I would weep over any tragedy to my fellow humans, but not the way those in Rev 18 are weeping because their whole world is ending.
If oil were no longer available or 20 dollars a gallon, on the other hand, that would ruin my day and change my life forever.
A nice digression... :cloud9:
Heaven Is Real: A Doctor's Experience With the Afterlife
Oct 8, 2012 1:00 AM EDT
When a neurosurgeon found himself in a coma, he experienced things he never thought possible—a journey to the afterlife.
Although I considered myself a faithful Christian, I was so more in name than in actual belief. I didn't begrudge those who wanted to believe that Jesus was more than simply a good man who had suffered at the hands of the world. I sympathized deeply with those who wanted to believe that there was a God somewhere out there who loved us unconditionally. In fact, I envied such people the security that those beliefs no doubt provided. But as a scientist, I simply knew better than to believe them myself.
In the fall of 2008, however,...
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html
The 7 hills are on the other side of the Tiber from Rome. She doesn't sit on them unless by contrivance of maps; but, much of that used to indict Rome as Babylon indicts the Mother Jerusalem, and the old city does sit on 7 hills. (The 7 names I've posted here before.) The same thing happened to the Church as to Israel. They were meant to be God's Priesthood to the rest of humanity. Instead, they were taken captive by the head of gold, a political entity Jesus calls, "Gentile authority." The mother and daughters are Jerusalem and the Institutional churches. Rome and Eastern Orthodox are older daughters. Many are in intimacy with these institutions in ways we are only meant to be with God. Many do not allow being led of the Spirit, but follow ritual and they have other mediators. Their doctrines are the traditions of men, rather than the voice of the Living Jesus singing in the midst of His people.
________________________________________
I like all insights I can get on this marvelous "Unveiling." If I write something about some portion, don't assume that is all I know or believe, nor is it conclusive. I want more. I like preterism, historicism, futurism, and the several branches of symbolism. Because there are so many things never stated in scripture which are essential to dipSINsationalism, I particularly dislike it as a system of interpretation for anything. One of its cardinal points is racism which was abolished by Jesus death on the cross. Particularly evil is its view of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that they belong to those of a certain racial identity, and are not operative for other races in the Church. It is more insidious "modernism" than German higher criticism because it pretends to believe in scripture, just that is not for us. Those who believe in the workings of the Spirit in our present time enjoy His manifestation as surely as anytime in the past.
May I also mention that you should not get your clues from steeple houses whose manner of meeting refuses the directly communicated headship of Jesus Christ through each and every one of the members in particular and stops the gifts and blessings in the body of Christ from functioning, replacing them with a professional speaker. We must exercise to our own spiritual development and the edifying of the body gathered. Those who accept audience status, atrophy, falling far short of the corporate and individual "Perfect Man" the Holy Spirit is committed to produce. Many of us have to function outside such meetings in pursuit of "The measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."
________________________________________
As best as I am aware, nowhere does the Book of Revelation call itself sealed up or closed 'til the time of the end, unlike Daniel. There is a scroll the Lamb unseals which I understand as the Eclessia, His bride. As He unseals her, releases her, all creation begins to change. When He begins to read out loud what He has written there, a new creation begins to rise unveiled.
Then there is also a little scroll John ate. It really changes him. It is unlikely you'll want to chase it down to read it, if you even can. He'll tell you all about it though.
Quote from: reformerAs best as I am aware, nowhere does the Book of Revelation call itself sealed up or closed 'til the time of the end, unlike Daniel.
It's clear it is sealed, because it says it is sealed and because no one can open it.
And, since it is the Lord's day that John is experiencing in the Spirit, it is the time of the end when someone does finally open it.
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold,
the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
--Rev 5
Quote from: Molly on October 09, 2012, 09:29:30 AM
Quote from: reformerAs best as I am aware, nowhere does the Book of Revelation call itself sealed up or closed 'til the time of the end, unlike Daniel.
It's clear it is sealed, because it says it is sealed and because no one can open it.
And, since it is the Lord's day that John is experiencing in the Spirit, it is the time of the end when someone does finally open it.
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
--Rev 5
There is nothing said in the text about the scroll with the 7 seals being the Book of the Revelation or vice versa. It is an interesting thought; however, without Biblical warrant, a direct quotation stating it, I shouldn't hold to such an assumption. Without going into it any more right now, I just shared in my previous post what has stood for several decades as a good functional understanding of this mystery. There's a whole book in the Bible permeated with the premise that God's people in apostasy are exiled to Babylon: Zachariah, who married a daughter of whoredoms, seeks her when she is deported away from the prophet. Both Isaiah and John the Revelator called Jerusalem and Judea, Sodom and Egypt. Certainly "Babylon" is very important. Babylon occurs 294 times in 260 verses. After Christ, it has 3 times as many mentions in scripture as the next prophetic topic.
Molly,
QuoteWe see in the very next chapter of Daniel, the reference to "the time of the end." There is no controversy about this. Everyone agrees this is referring to the end of the age.
We're not talking about the next chapter, the point of discussion is your use of the bogus translations that use "some" & "few" in Dan 11:6.
QuoteAfter some years, they will become allies. Dan 11:6
Only if you like bogus translating.
QuoteSo here in Daniel 11:6 we see a bit of discretion used by the translators.
You mean deliberate mistranslations...... . From the original Chaldee/Hebrew "
end of
years" is the only intellectually viable translation.
QuoteThey alternatively translate "after some years, " "some years later," "in the end of years," "after a few years,""at the end of some years," and "after the end of years."
Doesn't matter what their opinions are about their bogus translating, it's all about what God states he inspired to be written.
QuoteYou can see from the words used and the context why they use their discretion. But, it all means the same thing--after a period of years, the king and the daughter of the other king get together.
Dead on wrong. Where does God state anywhere in his Holy Writ that he has given it unto men the latitude of using their "discretion" about what words to use in their translations? I actually know of a prophetic statement that condemns the practice you support, Rev 22:19. Does that scripture sound to you as if God allows men to have a wide latitude of "discretion" regarding God's own Holy Writ?
To come up with the translation you want, two Chaldee/Hebrew words need to be inserted into the text:
Strong's #310 achar: after(ward)
Strong's # 428 elleh: these or those
The fact neither one of these words appear in the text of Dan 11:6 is proof that your favored translators simply made up two or three different words with much different definitions in Hebrew & English & bogusly inserted them without warrant.
Quote from: Paul"end of years"
well if you are going to be like that, it doesn't say "end of years" either. It doesn't say "And in the end of years" as your preferred translation says. It is two words, so take your pick
"End years" [they joined themselves together]
or
"After years" [they joined themselves together].
Neither one of those meanings implies the end times or the end of the age. That's a different two words which doesn't include the word "years."
The translator always has total discretion over his translation, and will add words and pick meanings to smoothly translate from one language into another. No two languages have a direct one to one correlation, and the preservation of the meaning within the context is up to the translator.
2Ch 18:2
And after7093 [certain] years 8141 he went down 3381 to Ahab 256 to Samaria 8111. And Ahab 256 killed 2076 sheep 6629 and oxen 1241 for him in abundance 7230, and for the people 5971 that [he had] with him, and persuaded 5496 him to go up 5927 [with him] to Ramothgilead 7433 1568.
...Look to me and be saved....ALL YE ENDS OF THE EARTH......that day and hour no man knows...
neither the son....But only the Father.
at the END OF CHRIST'S REIGN= This is the end of the day of Christ and the perfecting of the saints...
when He turns the kingdom over unto the Father that the Father may be ALL IN ALL[now pay close attention
you that 'hear" the message of 'ALL SAVED".......for we are there........
He that has been restrained is let loose from the abyss to go forth= He that now restrains is taken out of the way
how so? when the angel comes down and binds him/ he is restraining him........ when satan released
Christ's kingdom/day taken out of way[churches overcome/ litte camp of Holy city remnant in earth
this is the 'end' of the Day of the Lord..and when darkness comes/satan...the hour of darkness or power of it
You see...the day of Christ is intnded to bring to perfection/manchild sons of maturity.......then the kingdom
is turned over to the Father...who then releases satan to go forth to fight against the camp of the Holy city
and completely wipeout all enemies at that time
the sixth trumpet is the releasing of the bound angels at the great river Euphrates...or he that now rstrains
taken out of the way........
now some of these things I'm saying may need to be 'refined somewhat" but am typing as receiving.......
The book is unsealed by the Lamb for John, and at the end of the book John is instructed NOT to seal it for the time is at hand
Revelation 22:10
Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.
Molly, read on:
Quotewell if you are going to be like that, it doesn't say "end of years" either. It doesn't say "And in the end of years" as your preferred translation says. It is two words, so take your pick
Quote"End years" [they joined themselves together]
And you are absolutely correct on this point, so go back & look at my previous post, it reads:
"end of
years", if you noticed, I did not place "of" in bold letter form. I did this for the express purpose of reminding myself that even the use for the word "of" is also not warranted in the translation.
Quoteor
Quote"After years" [they joined themselves together].
This is bogus translating
QuoteNeither one of those meanings implies the end times or the end of the age. That's a different two words which doesn't include the word "years."
And what are those two words?
QuoteThe translator always has total discretion over his translation, and will add words and pick meanings to smoothly translate from one language into another. No two languages have a direct one to one correlation, and the preservation of the meaning within the context is up to the translator.
Talk about a stretch..... using that kind of reasoning, you should have no problem translating John 3:16 : "God so
hated the world........"
Seriously for a moment. Are you aware of the various manuscripts that exist which counter your every word? The Septuagint & Dead Sea scrolls are in perfect accord with the Greek & Aramaic/Hebrew writ of the words which open Dan 11:6, and the literal translation of the text is inarguable, the most mechanical translation from the Septuagint that I've known about for a long time reads as follows:
"
Now at the
end of
years they shall join......."
The bold letters are direct transliteration from the Greek Septuagint text, confirmed in the Masoretic Text & the Dead sea scrolls, that the above as I have written in bold letters is an exact transliteration into English. This is to say, for each word as it appears in the original manuscripts there is an exact word for word translation and exact definition in the English language as I have placed in boldface above & previous post. The letters I left in light face were added by translators to smooth the flow from Greek to English.
Do you want to drop "of" that is between "
end" & "
years"? I have no problem with that, then you get: "
In the end years.....", which is a better translation as far as I'm concerned, use for the word "of" is completely pointless as far as I can see. Drop "of" and the case is further bolstered that the text is pointing the reader to a specific period in time that remains future to us, the "end years", the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.
Problem is, end times in Daniel, the word time or times is "ayth" and it is not year. It is used nearly 300 times in the OT for wide variety of specific periods, most of which IN NO WAY mean year.
Strong's Hebrew 6256,
294 Occurrences
Gen 21:22 : Now it came about at that time(ayth) that Abimelech
Ex 9:18 : Behold, about this time(ayth) tomorrow,
Deut 1:18 : And I commanded you at that time(ayth) all the things
Deut 28:12 : unto thy land in his season(ayth), and to bless
QuoteDo you want to drop "of" that is between "end" & "years"? I have no problem with that, then you get: "In the end years.....",
Paul, really, I have explained it as well as I can to you. This is now officially a waste of my time.
Two words. Do with them what you want. As far as I'm concerned, it is not referring to the end times. It already happened.
H7093
קץ
qêts
kates
Contracted from H7112; an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix)
after: - + after, (utmost) border, end, [in-] finite, X process.
H8141
שׁנה שׁנה
shâneh shânâh
shaw-neh', shaw-naw'
(The first form being in
plural only, the second form being feminine); from H8138;
a year (as a revolution of time): - + whole age, X long, + old, year (X -ly).
"After years"
Quote from: eaglesway on October 10, 2012, 02:58:04 AM
Problem is, end times in Daniel, the word time or times is "ayth" and it is not year. It is used nearly 300 times in the OT for wide variety of specific periods, most of which IN NO WAY mean year.
Strong's Hebrew 6256,
294 Occurrences
Gen 21:22 : Now it came about at that time(ayth) that Abimelech
Ex 9:18 : Behold, about this time(ayth) tomorrow,
Deut 1:18 : And I commanded you at that time(ayth) all the things
Deut 28:12 : unto thy land in his season(ayth), and to bless
This is all Hebrew text you are referring to. The book of Daniel was not written in Hebrew, it originally came from the Chaldee texts, thus carrying Chaldee definitions, not Hebrew definitions. Your point about "ayth" has no usefulness here.
Daniel was written in Hebrew and Chaldee. According to Scofield the Chaldean section is chapter 2:4 - 7:28, in which case the Hebrew would be in force for Daniel 11:35
"The language returns to Hebrew in the predictive portions which have to do with the future of Israel. 'The Hebrew of Daniel is closely related to that of Ezekiel.'"--Delitzsch.
http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/6256.html
http://bible.cc/daniel/2-4.htm
In which case, "years" would not apply
WND EXCLUSIVE
Obama's ring: 'There is no god but Allah'
He's worn it on his wedding-ring finger since before he met Michelle
Published: 2 hours ago
NEW YORK – As a student at Harvard Law School, then-bachelor Barack Obama's practice of wearing a gold band on his wedding-ring finger puzzled his colleagues.
Now, newly published photographs of Obama from the 1980s show that the ring Obama wore on his wedding-ring finger as an unmarried student is the same ring Michelle Robinson put on his finger at the couple's wedding ceremony in 1992.
Moreover, according to Arabic-language and Islamic experts, the ring Obama has been wearing for more than 30 years is adorned with the first part of the Islamic declaration of faith, the Shahada: "There is no God except Allah."
The Shahada is the first of the Five Pillars of Islam, expressing the two fundamental beliefs that make a person a Muslim: There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is Allah's prophet.
Sincere recitation of the Shahada is the sole requirement for becoming a Muslim, as it expresses a person's rejection of all other gods
http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/obamas-ring-there-is-no-god-but-allah/
So, both Isaiah and John (in Revelation) says Jerusalem is Sodom and Egypt. The Book of Zechariah is about Jerusalem being a whore. Both ancient Israel (of earthly Jerusalem) and early Christianity (God's heavenly Jerusalem) fell away into captivity to Babylon. What else is needed to understand this much about Mystical Babylon?
Is Jerusalem in a desert? Because Babylon is.
Does any of this describe Jerusalem, past or present?
Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. Rev 17:3
Revelation 17:5 This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Revelation 17:2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries."
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues
Jerusalem's Unique Climate
by Larry Vardiman, Ph.D.
Several years ago a Jewish meteorologist from Tel Aviv University, Pinhas Alpert, began to ponder Psalm 48:1,2 which describes Jerusalem. "Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised is the city of our God, in the mountain of His holiness. Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole Earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King." He found that the original word in Hebrew which was translated as "situation" is the word "nof." It appears only once in the whole Bible and its explanation is not straightforward. In modern Hebrew, nof, means environment, panorama, or landscape observed from a high elevation or from a distance. Alpert (1991) was surprised to find that one commentator suggested the word just means "climate," and that Jerusalem's climate is beautiful. This article is intended to show that Jerusalem indeed has a unique and beautiful climate—one which not only is a special blessing of the Lord on all who live there, but also to those who visit, whether for business or pleasure.
An Ideal Combination of Sun and Rain
Most people think of Israel as a desert. They have seen pictures and drawings of caravans of camels tramping through the sand of the Sahara Desert and translate that image to Israel. They have read Bible stories about Jesus and His disciples walking across Israel in their sandals and the need for foot washing, the lack of water, and famine. They have seen Hollywood movies depicting the time of Moses and the Exodus in the deserts of Egypt and the lower Sinai. All these images give an impression of extremely hot, sunny conditions and very little, if any, rain.
It is true that very dry conditions exist in southern Israel in the Negev and eastward of the Jordan River Valley. However, along the central and northern coast in northern Israel near the Sea of Galilee, and along the highlands on which Jerusalem sits, temperatures are much cooler and bountiful rainfall occurs. The average annual rainfall in northern Israel and along the highlands typically exceeds 15 inches. These portions of Israel produce plentiful crops of citrus, olives, figs, and grain. Far from being a desert, this part of Israel is highly productive.
What are the conditions which create an ideal climate? Most people would say that lots of sunshine would be preferable, but only if the temperatures don't become too high. Also, the sunshine should not be so prevalent that no clouds and rain ever occur. The climate of a desert would not be considered ideal by most people because it is too dry and hot. Neither would a tropical climate be considered ideal because it is too humid. So, a mix of lots of sun with a moderate amount of clouds and rain would seem to be the most desirable.
The amount of sunshine and rain that Jerusalem receives seems to meet these criteria exactly. Figure 1 shows the amount of sunshine received at 69 weather stations around the earth on the x-axis and the amount of precipitation in millimeters per year on the vertical axis. A vertical line at 3250 hours of annual sunshine and a horizontal line at 300 millimeters of annual rainfall divide the chart into quadrants. Notice that two stations in Jerusalem fall alone in the upper right-hand quadrant of this diagram with a large amount of sunshine and a moderate amount of rain occur. The only other station which approaches these ideal conditions is Flagstaff, Arizona, which is at a considerably higher, cooler elevation than Jerusalem.
The Climate of Israel in the Past
The climate of Israel may not have always been as warm and dry as it is today. Several references in Scripture would seem to imply that the land was wetter in the past and more suitable for agriculture without the need for irrigation than that which is prevalent in the Middle East now. For example,
And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar (Genesis 13:10).
And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey (Exodus 3:7,8).
.....
Today's Beautiful Climate
Jerusalem today, however, seems to have a generally uniform climate and is in a specially favored location to experience an ideal climate. It is not too hot, not too cold, not too dry, not too wet. The climate in Jerusalem truly bears out Scripture which says, "Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King" (Psalm 48:2).
http://www.icr.org/article/jerusalems-unique-climate/
(It seems as though I'm speaking in tongues without an interpreter)
You are speaking in the outer court.
Here, Babylon is called, 'the land of the Chaldeans."
Jer 50:1 The word which the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, the land of the Chaldeans, through Jeremiah the prophet...3 "For a nation has come up against her out of the north ; it will make her land an object of horror, and there will be no inhabitant in it.
again, sounds nuclear.
The Chaldeans were an Arabic tribe that migrated out of the Arabian peninsula in the eighth century BCE, to settle in the region just to the south of the city of Babylon at a time when it was under Assyrian domination. They eventually overthrew the Assyrian rulers, to establish the neo-Babylonian kingdom.
Additional information
The country of Chadea was an ancient land in southern Babylonia, on the Persian Gulf near the delta of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. In biblical times the name was applied to all of Babylonia. As far as can be traced, the Chaldeans themselves descend from Shem's son, Arphaxad, who is also an ancestor of Abraham and Israel.
The Chaldeans lived in the southern portion of the Babylon on the rich land by the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Ur, the hometown of Abraham, was it's most recognizable city in ancient times.(Genesis 11:28, 31; 15:7; Nehemiah 9:7; Acts 7:2-4) .
Eventually all Babylonia became known as "the land of the Chaldeans" and the Bible prophesied that it would rise to a World Power and fall again (Isaiah 13:19; 23:13; 47:1, 5; 48:14, 20, 2Kings 24:1, 2; 2Chronicles 36:17; Ezra 5:12; Jeremiah 21:4, 9; 25:12; 32:4; 43:3; 50:1; Ezekiel 1:3; Habakkuk 1:6) The cult of the Chaldeans was known for their practice of the occult arts in Babylon. Daniel was in exile in Babylon and interpreted a dream for the king when the "Chaldeans" (diviners) could not(Daniel 2:2, 5, 10; 4:7; 5:7, 11). It's government was destroyed when "Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed." (Daniel 5:30)
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_were_the_Chaldean_people_in_the_Bible
Quote from: reFORMer on October 10, 2012, 08:52:50 AM
So, both Isaiah and John (in Revelation) says Jerusalem is Sodom and Egypt. The Book of Zechariah is about Jerusalem being a whore. Both ancient Israel (of earthly Jerusalem) and early Christianity (God's heavenly Jerusalem) fell away into captivity to Babylon. What else is needed to understand this much about Mystical Babylon?
Isaiah compares Jerusalem to Sodom and Gomorrah. "Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah." [Isa. 1:9]
I don't think the idea of Jerusalem being a "whore" is what Zechariah is about. I think it is more of a book of comfort to Jerusalem. "Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem." [Zech. 1:17]
Zechariah 2:3-5
And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him,
And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
These are promises, and words of comfort.
"For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye." [Zech. 2:8]
What verses are you referring to?
The reference to Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8 refers to the world outside Jerusalem. For John, the city of Jerusalem represents the kingdom of Christ, the bride of the Lamb. The world outside is mystical Babylon. This is ideal of course; he alludes to the heavenly Jerusalem. There is a parallel in 21:27, "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." And in 22:14-15: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
These compare with 11:8-9: "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."
Each of the above contrasts the holy city with the world. Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem. Otherwise, how could the centurion standing nearby have seen the curtain of the temple? It was probably on the mount of Olives. See Hebrews 13:12.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on October 10, 2012, 03:51:19 AM
QuoteDo you want to drop "of" that is between "end" & "years"? I have no problem with that, then you get: "In the end years.....",
Paul, really, I have explained it as well as I can to you. This is now officially a waste of my time.
Two words. Do with them what you want. As far as I'm concerned, it is not referring to the end times. It already happened.
H7093
קץ
qêts
kates
Contracted from H7112; an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix) after: - + after, (utmost) border, end, [in-] finite, X process.
H8141
שׁנה שׁנה
shâneh shânâh
shaw-neh', shaw-naw'
(The first form being in plural only, the second form being feminine); from H8138; a year (as a revolution of time): - + whole age, X long, + old, year (X -ly).
"After years"
The word 7093 occurs 14 times in the book of Daniel, only one time is it translated in King James as "after" & that is Dan 11:13. In the entirety of the Old Testament it is translated "after" 5 times. The word 7093 appears about 50 times in the entirety of the Old Testament, only 5 times as "after".
Quoting Dan 11:35:
"And some of them understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the
end (7093): because it is yet for a time appointed."
Insert your favored word "after" in there & tell me how much sense such an insertion makes. None, is that not right? It doesn't make sense because the context demands the transliteration to the English word "end". Use of the English "after" never fits into the context for any of the uses of 7093 anywhere it appears, not only in Daniel but anywhere else in the Old Testament, go ahead, give it a try & see for yourself how nonsensically it fits.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 10, 2012, 04:51:46 AM
Daniel was written in Hebrew and Chaldee. According to Scofield the Chaldean section is chapter 2:4 - 7:28, in which case the Hebrew would be in force for Daniel 11:35
"The language returns to Hebrew in the predictive portions which have to do with the future of Israel. 'The Hebrew of Daniel is closely related to that of Ezekiel.'"--Delitzsch.
http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/6256.html
http://bible.cc/daniel/2-4.htm
In which case, "years" would not apply
True, what I really intended to say was that Daniel was partly written in Hebrew & partly in Chaldee, I was sidetracked from making that clear because I was focusing on your point your point about "ayeth" as a useless point for the the discussion at hand.
the little scroll John ate..is a letter[Paul spoke about a report of the 'letter" and said it had not come from them yet.]
for it was John's little scroll. the letter is also an epistle written on men's hearts...so it is God who writes
His laws in the minds and hearts.
Odes of Solomon 23...the refernce to the sealed document sent by God is one of the great mysteries
of the collection.
Joy is of the saints,and who shall put it on but they alone. Grace is of the elect! and who shall
receive it except they who trust in it from the beginning? Love is of the elect,and who shall put it
on except those who have possesed it from the beginning. Walk ye in the knowledge of the Most
High without begrudging; to His exultation and to the perfection of His knowledge....
AND HIS THOUGHT WAS LIKE A LETTER; HIS WILL DESCENDED FROM ON HIGH, AND IT
WAS SENT LIKE AN ARROW THAT IS VIOLENTLY SHOT FROM THE BOW...AND MANY HANDS
RUSHED TO THE LETTER TO SEIZE IT AND TO TAKE AND READ IT. AND IT ESCAPED
THIER FINGERS AND THEY WERE AFFRIGHTENED AT IT AND AT THE SEAL THAT WAS UPON IT.
BECAUSE IT WAS NOT PERMITTED TO THEM TO LOOSE ITS SEAL; FOR THE POWER THAT WAS OVER
THE SEAL WAS GREATER THAN THEY. BUT THOSE WHO SAW IT WENT AFTER THE LETTER THAT
THEY MIGHT KNOW WHERE IT WOULD ALIGHT. AND WHO SHOULD READ IT AND WHO SHOULD HEAR IT.
BUT A WHEEL RECEIVED IT ANDCAME OVER IT, AND THERE WAS WITH IT A SIGN OF THE
KINGDOM AND OF THE GOVERNMENT. AND EVERYTHING WHICH TRIED TO MOVE THE WHEEL
IT MOWED AND CUT DOWN.
AND IT GATHERED THE MULTITUDE OF ADVERSARIES, AND BRIDGED THE RIVERS AND CROSSED
OVER AND ROOTED UP MANY FORESTS AND MADE A BROAD PATH.
THE HEAD WENT DOWN TO THE FEET,FOR DOWN TO THE FEET RAN THE WHEEL, AND THAT
WHICH WAS A SIGN ON IT.
THE LETTER WAS ONE OF COMMAND, FOR THERE WERE INCLUDED IN IT ALL DISTRICTS.
AND THERE WAS SEEN AT IT'S HEAD, THE HEAD WHICH WAS REVEALED,EVEN THE SON OF TRUTH
FROM THE MOST HIGH FATHER. AND HE INHERITED AND TOOK POSSESION OF EVERYTHING
AND THE THOUGHT OF MANY WAS BROUGHT TO NOUGHT. AND ALL THE APOSTATES HASTED AND
FLED AWAY. AND THOSE WHO PERSECUTED AND WERE ENRAGED BECAME EXTINCT
AND THE LETTER WAS A GREAT VOLUME, WHICH WAS WHOLLY WRITTEN BY THE FINGER
OF GOD. AND THE NAME OF THE FATHER WAS ON IT, AND OF THE SON,AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
TO RULE FOR EVER AND EVER. HALLELUJAH
THE ABOVE IS THE BOOK OF LIFE..WHOLLY WRITTEN OF THE FINGER OF GOD.........
WHEN HE WRITES HIS LAWS IN HEARTS AND MINDS OF MEN. JOHN RECEIVED IT AS A 'LITTLE SCROLL
THE 'REVELATION' OF CHRIST
Quote from: Paul L on October 10, 2012, 04:33:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 10, 2012, 03:51:19 AM
QuoteDo you want to drop "of" that is between "end" & "years"? I have no problem with that, then you get: "In the end years.....",
Paul, really, I have explained it as well as I can to you. This is now officially a waste of my time.
Two words. Do with them what you want. As far as I'm concerned, it is not referring to the end times. It already happened.
H7093
קץ
qêts
kates
Contracted from H7112; an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix) after: - + after, (utmost) border, end, [in-] finite, X process.
H8141
שׁנה שׁנה
shâneh shânâh
shaw-neh', shaw-naw'
(The first form being in plural only, the second form being feminine); from H8138; a year (as a revolution of time): - + whole age, X long, + old, year (X -ly).
"After years"
The word 7093 occurs 14 times in the book of Daniel, only one time is it translated in King James as "after" & that is Dan 11:13. In the entirety of the Old Testament it is translated "after" 5 times. The word 7093 appears about 50 times in the entirety of the Old Testament, only 5 times as "after".
Quoting Dan 11:35:
"And some of them understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end (7093): because it is yet for a time appointed."
Insert your favored word "after" in there & tell me how much sense such an insertion makes. None, is that not right? It doesn't make sense because the context demands the transliteration to the English word "end". Use of the English "after" never fits into the context for any of the uses of 7093 anywhere it appears, not only in Daniel but anywhere else in the Old Testament, go ahead, give it a try & see for yourself how nonsensically it fits.
H7093 is all over the Bible.
Here is an example of it being translated as 'after' as it is by many translators of Daniel 11:6. This uses the same two words as Dan 11:6 and here it is translated "[and] after [certain] years."
2Ch 18:2
And after7093 [certain] years 8141 he went down 3381 to Ahab 256 to Samaria 8111. And Ahab 256 killed 2076 sheep 6629 and oxen 1241 for him in abundance 7230, and for the people 5971 that [he had] with him, and persuaded 5496 him to go up 5927 [with him] to Ramothgilead 7433 1568
Why can't we drop this and just agree to disagree? We don't have to agree with each other, you know. You can wait for the marriage to take place all during the Psalm 83 war for all I care--which is at the door, by the way.
It's not translated after in Dan 11:35 because 'after time' doesn't make a whole lot of sense in that context.
WITHOUT WOOD A FIRE GOES OUT, WITHOUT GOSSIP A QUARREL DIES DOWN..
GOSSIP= A RUMOUR
MATTHEW 24;6 YOU WILL HEAR OF WARS....AND 'RUMOURS' OF WARS...
BUT SEE TO IT THAT YOU ARE NOT ALARMED. SUCH THINGS MUST HAPPEN...
BUT THE END IS STILL TO COME
You mean if I stop talking about it, it won't happen?
Really, Sheila, he has given us signs of the end to watch for. And, when everything starts falling into place alarm bells go off in my head.
But, a prophet is not without honor except in his own home town. :HeartThrob:
NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEAN.....I MEAN YOU CAN GO ROUND AND ROUND..AND IT WON'T MAKE A
DIFFERNCE..COZ WHAT MUST HAPPEN..WILL
HE SAYS 'SEE TO IT THAT YOU AREN'T ALARMED"..I LOVE YOU AND DON'T WANT YOU PULLED TO THE SIDE
OVER IT. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
YOU ARE MY SISTER,MOLLY
QuoteH7093 is all over the Bible.
Yep, about 50 times as I've already pointed out to you, and only 5 times in all those 50 times is it translated "after", but you want to make it 6 times for some unbeknownst reason.
QuoteWhy can't we drop this and just agree to disagree? We don't have to agree with each other, you know. You can wait for the marriage to take place all during the Psalm 83 war for all I care--which is at the door, by the way.
No we don't necessarily need to agree with one another, but there is an educational process going on here that can be instructional for all the readers, not just yourself. So you see, I'm not necessarily trying to correct you, but rather intending to prevent others from flailing around in these kinds of pitfalls that prevent them from correctly discerning the context(s) of Holy Writ.
QuoteIt's not translated after in Dan 11:35 because 'after time' doesn't make a whole lot of sense in that context.
And how do you come to this conclusion? So let's just write Dan 11:6 with the word you want to insert, and we can just let the readers out there make up their own minds how much sense the insertion of
after makes in Dan 11:6:
"And in the
after years they shall join themselves together, for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of arm........"
Come on Mol, you know very well that the opening of this verse by inserting "after" in place of
end is complete nonsense.
REV 10 THE ANGEL AND THE LITTLE SCROLL....
THEN I SAW ANOTHER ANGEL COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN. HE WAS ROBED IN A CLOUD
WITH A RAINBOW ABOVE HIS HEAD,HIS FACE WAS LIKE THE SUN AND HIS LEGS WERE LIKE
FIERY PILLARS. HE WAS HOLDING A LITTLE SCROLL WHICH LAY OPEN IN HIS HAND
AND HE PLANTED HIS RIGHT FOOT ON THE SEA AND HIS LEFT FOOT ON THE LAND
[NOTICE THE DRAGON HAS HIS EVIL COUNTERPART STANDING ON THE SHORES OF THE SEA..AND A BEAST COMES OUT OF THE SEA AND THE LAND IN REV 13]
AND HE GAVE A LOUD SHOUT LIKE THE ROAR OF A LION. WHEN HE SHOUTED THE VOICES OF THE SEVEN
THUNDERS SPOKE . AND WHEN THE SEVEN THUNDERS SPOKE I WAS ABOUT TO WRITE,, BUT I HEARD A
VOICE FROM HEAVEN SAY 'SEAL UP WHAT THE SEVEN THUNDERS SAID AND DO NOT WRITE IT DOWN
....THERE WILL BE NO MORE DELAY BUT IN THE DAYS WHEN THE SEVENTH ANGEL IS ABOUT TO SOUND HI
S TRUMPET......THE MYSTERY OF GOD WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED[JOHN EATS THE SCROLL]
THE SEVENTH TRUMPET
THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED HIS TRUMPET AND THERE WAS LOUD VOICES IN HEAVEN
WHICH SAID........
THE KINGDOM OF THE WORLD HAS BECOME THE KINGDOM OF OUR LORD AND OF HIS CHRIST
AND HE WILL REIGN FOREVER AND EVER. 24 ELDERS SEATED ON THRONE FELL ON THEIR
FACES AND WORSHIPPED GOD.
WE GIVE THANKS TO YOU,LORD,FOR YOU HAVE TAKEN YOUR GREAT POWER AND BEGUN TO REIGN
THE NATIONS WERE ANGRY AND YOUR WRATH HAS COME. THE TIME HAS COME FOR JUDGING THE DEAD
AND FOR REWARDING YOUR SERVANTS THE PROPHETS, AND YOUR SAINTS AND
THOSE WHO REVERENCE YOUR NAME, BOTH SMALL AND GREAT-
AND FOR DESTROYING THOSE WHO DESTROY THE EARTH.
THEN GOD'S TEMPLE IN HEAVEN WAS OPENED AND WITHIN HIS TEMPLE WAS SEEN THE ARK
[CHRIST IN THE HOLY CITY] AND THERE CAME FLASHE OF LIGHTENING, RUMBLINGS
PEALS OF THUNDER AN EARTHQUAKE AN A GREAT HAILSTORM.
SHE WAS PREGNANT AND CRIED OUT IN PAIN AS SHE WAS ABOUT TO GIVE BIRTH.
QuoteAnd in the after years they shall join themselves together, for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of arm........"
Come on Mol, you know very well that the opening of this verse by inserting "after" in place of end is complete nonsense.
Many translators do just that, and it makes perfect sense. But, I've already said this.
FOR EXAMPLE
DANIEL 11:6
New International Version (©1984)
After some years, they will become allies.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"Some years later an alliance will be formed between the king of the north
English Standard Version (©2001)
After some years they shall make an alliance, and the daughter of the king
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"After some years they will form an alliance, and the daughter of the king
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
After a few years the southern and northern kings will make an alliance.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And after the end of years they shall be in league together: and the daughter
Darby Bible Translation
And after the course of years they shall join affinity; and the king's daughter
Quote from: Molly on October 10, 2012, 06:37:29 PM
You mean if I stop talking about it, it won't happen?
Really, Sheila, he has given us signs of the end to watch for. And, when everything starts falling into place alarm bells go off in my head.
But, a prophet is not without honor except in his own home town. :HeartThrob:
There are many here who believe the end times, maybe most. It seems your frustration is due to the fact that the spirit of preterism prevails here. This is because this is Garys forum and he believes in preterism.
QuoteQuote from: thinktank on October 11, 2012, 12:46:53 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 10, 2012, 06:37:29 PM
You mean if I stop talking about it, it won't happen?
Really, Sheila, he has given us signs of the end to watch for. And, when everything starts falling into place alarm bells go off in my head.
But, a prophet is not without honor except in his own home town. :HeartThrob:
There are many here who believe the end times, maybe most. It seems your frustration is due to the fact that the spirit of preterism prevails here. This is because this is Garys forum and he believes in preterism.
I think you're right....
Quote from: Molly on October 10, 2012, 09:09:56 PM
QuoteAnd in the after years they shall join themselves together, for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of arm........"
Come on Mol, you know very well that the opening of this verse by inserting "after" in place of end is complete nonsense.
Many translators do just that, and it makes perfect sense. But, I've already said this.
FOR EXAMPLE
DANIEL 11:6
New International Version (©1984)
After some years, they will become allies.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"Some years later an alliance will be formed between the king of the north
English Standard Version (©2001)
After some years they shall make an alliance, and the daughter of the king
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"After some years they will form an alliance, and the daughter of the king
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
After a few years the southern and northern kings will make an alliance.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And after the end of years they shall be in league together: and the daughter
Darby Bible Translation
And after the course of years they shall join affinity; and the king's daughter
Most of the above quoted translations use an added English word "some" or "a few". To warrant using those words you need the Hebrew word #4592 (maat), the problem is no such Hebrew word exists in the oldest manuscripts we have of Dan 11:6, these are the Septuagint, Masoretic, or Dead Sea Scrolls texts, so it's just bogus translating. These manuscripts are on-line, so you can check it for yourself.
The Darby uses "course" for "end" (7093). Using "course" is a different Hebrew word #4256 or 4794, neither of which is a close match for 7093, thereby classifying Darby as just one more bogus translation because it does not comport with the contents of any of the manuscripts.
Thursday, 11 October 2012 08:00
The United Nations: On the Brink of Becoming a World Government
Written by William F. Jasper
On October 14, 2009, Lord Christopher Monckton, former science advisor to British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, delivered a scathing refutation of the concept of human-caused global warming at Bethel University in St. Paul, Minnesota. During his presentation, Lord Monckton focused on the UN climate treaty that was being proposed for the United Nations Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen that December. He warned:
I read that treaty. And what it says is this: that a world government is going to be created. The word "government" actually appears as the first of three purposes of the new entity. The second purpose is the transfer of wealth from the countries of the West to third world countries.... And the third purpose of this new entity, this government, is enforcement.
Not just any government, mind you. "They are about to impose a communist world government on the world," warned Monckton.
At the UN's Rio+20 Earth Summit on Sustainable Development in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, in June 2012, the world government advocates were pushing even grander schemes. Lord Monckton, who heads the policy unit of the U.K. Independent Party and is chief policy advisor to the Washington, D.C.-based Science and Public Policy Institute, told The New American's Alex Newman, "They were still effectively talking about a mechanization for setting up a global government so that they could shut down the West, shut down democracy, and bring freedom to an end worldwide."
Is that merely the ranting of a madman? That's what the usual suspects at the Huffington Post, MSNBC, and other organs of the liberal-left corporate media would have us believe. He is a "climate-change denier," a "moonbat," a "conspiracy wacko." That is the same response that has greeted anyone and everyone who has dared not merely to criticize the United Nations' faults and abuses, but to point out the danger of a UN that is evolving into an actual world government — with real teeth and enforcement powers.
However, very influential Americans, as well as foreign leaders, in politics, media, and academe, have been advocating — blatantly and openly, as well as indirectly — for transforming the United Nations system into a full-blown world government. What's more, they have begun actual implementation. It is no longer hypothetical that the UN and its affiliated institutions will usurp legislative, executive, and judicial powers, including taxing, policing, and military powers. It has already begun; it is already happening. And it is happening with the acquiescence, approval, encouragement, and funding of globalists in our own government, both Republicans and Democrats.
More at:
http://thenewamerican.com/world-news/item/13126-the-united-nations-on-the-brink-of-becoming-a-world-government
:umnick:
US embassy's Yemeni security officer shot
by: By Ahmed Al Haj
From: AAP
October 11, 201211:17PM
A MASKED gunman has assassinated a Yemeni security official at the US embassy in a drive-by shooting in the capital Sanaa.
The Yemeni officials said Thursday's killing bore the hallmarks of an al-Qaeda attack, but it was too early to determine if the group was behind it.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news
:umnick:
'Holy Jihad' is the only way to deal with Israel, says Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood chief
Mohammed Badie declares that Zionists 'only understand force' and claims Jews want to supplant Al-Aqsa mosque with a third temple
By Elhanan MillerOctober 11, 2012, 6:02 pm30
Egypt's foremost Muslim Brotherhood official called on the Arab world Thursday to replace negotiations with Israel with "holy Jihad," claiming that if Jews are allowed to pray on the Temple Mount they will destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque and supplant it with the third temple.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/holy-jihad-is-the-only-way-to-deal-with-israel-says-egypts-muslim-brotherhood-chief/
I have access to the presence of God through Jesus Christ and
the Holy spirit...and it is not dependant on me fighting my way through all that .
My House is to be a house of prayer for all men..but ye have turned into a den of robbers...
it reminds me of the men struck with blindness that couldn't get through the door.
Abraham pleads for Sodom Gen 18.....
Genesis 19;7 and said 'no my friends don't do this wicked thing" Get out of our way they replied..
and they said..'this man came as an alien and now he wants to play the judge!" they kept putting
pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
But the men inside'angels' reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door...
then they struck the men young and old alike who were at the door of the house with blindness...
so that they could not find the door[Christ]
THESE ARE THE WORDS OF HIM WHO IS HOLY AND TRUE,WHO HOLDS THE KEY OF DAVID
WHAT HE OPENS NO-ONE CAN SHUT,AND WHAT HE CLOSES NO-ONE CAN OPEN....
I KNOW YOUR DEEDS.........................................................................
SEE, I HAVE PLACED BEFORE YOU AN OPENED DOOR THAT NO-ONE CAN SHUT.......
I KNOW YOU HAVE LITTLE STRENGTH,YET YOU HAVE KEPT MY WORD AND HAVE NOT DENIED
MY NAME. I WILL MAKE THOSE OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN,WHO SAY THEY ARE JEWS
AND ARE NOT..BUT ARE LIARS..I WILL MAKE THEM COME AND FALL DOWN AT YOUR FEET
AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I HAVE LOVED YOU.......I WILL ALSO KEEP YOU FROM TH
HOUR OF TRIAL THAT IS GOING TO COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD, TO
TEST THOSE WHO LIVE ON EARTH.........I WILL WRITE ON HIM THE NAME OF MY GOD..
AND THE CITY OF MY GOD..THE NEW JERUSALEM......................
WHICH IS COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD;
AND I WILL ALSO WRITE ON HIM MY NEW NAME.
HE WHO HAS AN EAR LET HIM HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS TO THE CHURCHES
The Determinators: Whoever Pays Holds the Power to Decide
http://www.teapartypatriots.org/thedeterminators/
GOD HELP US
Only a truly demonic mind could think up this health care bill.
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Hos 4:6
Molly, sometimes we just "get to" proclaim -- only the Holy Spirit can change hearts AND He doesn't always change hearts in the way the proclaimers wish He did.
You cannot know just how much the HS has used your very informative posts/Scripture references to arrange/unite my heart to get serious about intercessory prayer... so thank you so much. Be assured that you have a special spot in my heart, in my love, in my prayers as we both continue to seek the will of God in our individual lives. Peace, Mercy, Grace, Love in Christ.
:HeartThrob: thank you.
Some have said on this thread that armies don't fight on horseback anymore and that proves that the book of Revelation is only spiritual. So, imagine my surprise when I saw the new statue being dedicated to the horse soldier at ground zero. He's facing the trade center, keeping a watchful eye on it. These were the first soldiers to enter Afghanistan, due to the difficult terrain there, I assume, and the accessibility and versatility of horses. The horse soldier is dedicated to honor our troops and the special forces who were the first to enter Afghanistan on horseback, as well as the firemen and police who lost their lives at ground zero. He carries the motto of the Green Berets, De Oppresso Liber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:America%27s_Response_Monument-De_Oppresso_Liber.jpg
Quote from: Molly on October 10, 2012, 06:37:29 PM
You mean if I stop talking about it, it won't happen?
Really, Sheila, he has given us signs of the end to watch for. And, when everything starts falling into place alarm bells go off in my head.
But, a prophet is not without honor except in his own home town. :HeartThrob:
If you stop talking about it, it wouldn't Happen.
If you keep talking about it , wouldn't happen.
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Now that's what I'm talking ABOUT.!
Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2012, 09:41:45 AM
The Determinators: Whoever Pays Holds the Power to Decide
http://www.teapartypatriots.org/thedeterminators/
GOD HELP US
Only a truly demonic mind could think up this health care bill.
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Hos 4:6
It takes one to see one.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 19, 2012, 06:48:18 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2012, 09:41:45 AM
The Determinators: Whoever Pays Holds the Power to Decide
http://www.teapartypatriots.org/thedeterminators/
GOD HELP US
Only a truly demonic mind could think up this health care bill.
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Hos 4:6
It takes one to see one.
Is that how Jesus saw and talked to demons? Because he had a demonic mind?
What are you [ever] talking about? What does that mean? It takes one to see one?
It takes one what to see what?
Quote from: dajomaco on October 19, 2012, 06:48:18 PM
It takes one to see one.
If this is as it appears [personal insult, personal judgment] please remove. If not, please adequately explain. Thanks.
When Jesus saw or encountered some one with a truly demonic mind.
He cast it out he, did some thing .
The mind of Christ filled with the Holy Spirit.
The truly demonic mind controlled by the demonic spirit.
Two completely different minds.
The person controlled by the Holy spirit can and only when the Holy Spirit
leads DECLARE that some one else's mind is demonic and that what they say is demonic.
When a person not controlled and led by the holy spirit.
DECLARES that some one has a demonic mind.
It is usually a demonic DECLARATION, meant to cause confusion and strife.
I guess I was thinking about Paul's advice to be all things to all people.
When I posted ( It takes one to see one).
It is extremely immature and childish in political matters during an election
to start DECLARING one side to be full of demon possessed or people
literally being controlled and influenced by a truly demonic mind.
At the very best this tact is childish.
At the worst it is blasphemous.
No wonder the cause of Christ is ridiculed .
LOVE is round it has NO SIDES :dsunny:
QuoteI guess I was thinking about Paul's advice to be all things to all people.
When I posted ( It takes one to see one).
That still makes no sense. It takes one what to see what? What things were you being to all people when you said that?
QuoteWhen a person not controlled and led by the holy spirit.
DECLARES that some one has a demonic mind.
It is usually a demonic DECLARATION, meant to cause confusion and strife.
OK, so you are saying I made a 'demonic declaration'? And therefore I have a demonic mind? Or, wait, are you the one not controlled by the Holy Spirit and therefore, the one with the demonic mind who made the demonic declaration?
Did you even look at the video? No I didn't think so.
It doesn't concern you in any way unless you live in this country, so don't bother.
And, nothing you ever say to me makes any sense to me, so don't waste your time responding. I'm not in a mood to be insulted today.
Whoever wrote that bill has a demonic mind. The people who passed the bill did not even read it. I was not referring to them.
The following seems to make clear where obamacare comes from and where it is going. Hopefully this provision can be annulled...
As far as I've checked it out it seems those implementing obamacare intend to require everyone who has health care to have a Radio Frequency IDentification Chip implanted in the right hand by 2013 or 2014. Sorry I'm so sloppy with information sometimes. Maybe one of you all have something better about this. I got into it so late again I just want to get this over and go to bed, certainly not research it. I think I lost the info along with 10 months of email because my IP, well that's another story. I also don't remember why I went to the FEMA site about this, but the Drug Enforcement Agency at .gov says they're waving ordinary testing requirements for medical devices implanted under the skin because they need so very many of them so soon. They're requesting anyone making such devices to contact them.
It is difficult to see what the 80% of the US populace think being a Christian is. Are we being trounced by some sort of minority that wields the power here or are real Jesus' people actually far fewer than researchers indicate?
Right before a sociopath kills his victim, his mask comes off. I know this from reading about Ted Bundy. He wants to be seen in all his psychopathic glory by his victim before he kills her.
Natural predators, psychopaths use charm and deceit to entice their victims. They look mild mannered and unthreatening, even attractive. How did Ted get all those women to follow him to his car? Women are naturally suspicious of stranger men. But, Ted's technique worked like a charm and the women followed him naively and easily to their own destruction.
Watch closely past the charming smile and soothing words for hints of psychopathic rage. And, if he tells you he is going to push you over the fiscal cliff whether he wins or loses, believe him.
http://revelationnow.net/2012/07/08/obamacare-rfid-chips-for-everyone/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05lDOQgZmEI&feature=relmfu
Put your hand in the microwave for a second :winkgrin:
http://www.therightplanet.com/2012/07/obamacare-page-1004-you-must-have-rfid-chip-implanted-in-your-body/
http://whyamericansaredumb.com/obama-care-approves-rfid-chips/
Debunked:
http://whyamericansaredumb.com/category/debunked-obamacare-rfid-chip-implant-law-hoax/
http://care411.com/2012/04/23/obamacare-rfid-chip-implant-law-hoax-debunked/
Bills are easily repealed. All you need is the will of the people and a president who will sign the repeal when it is sent to him by the people.
The health care bill is a tax. The supreme court said so. And, you know if it says 'affordable' in the title, it won't be. The demonic mind thinks backwards and inside out, and always says the opposite of what it means.
I admit to being a Canadian who doesn't know/care much about political things, especially about countries that I don't live in. But after watching Sicko and seeing what Rebecca and Krissy have gone through, I can't imagine how anyone could not want change in the US healthcare system. I read something on Obamacare in a link that WW posted and one of the comments is from a nurse who stated how horrible the current system is, having to turn so many people away, and then many people get sicker and lose their jobs and subsequently any form of health insurance they may have had. I was in a state of shock watching Sicko, when the firefighters who helped during 9/11 couldn't even get treated for the respiratory illnesses they had contracted from it. Where did they eventually get treated? Cuba. SO SAD. As a Canadian it just completely blows my mind not being able to get healthcare when needed (for example a pregnant mother!!!) It's crazy to me.
People getting 'turned away'? I"ve never heard of anything like that. Why were they getting turned away? Sounds like propaganda to me.
But, whatever problems there are can be solved without plunging us into a communist-fascist country. It should be handled by the states, along with hospitals, and doctors, with the feds sending money and nothing else.
Where I live no one is ever turned away and the health care is excellent, but the system is slowly being overwhelmed by illegal aliens who get everything for free because no one is ever turned away.
I can't get into a healthcare argument. The point is this bill is not the solution. When all the doctors quit, what kind of healthcare system will we have then?
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2012, 04:44:56 PM
People getting 'turned away'? I"ve never heard of anything like that. Why were they getting turned away?
Because they had no insurance or couldn't pay cash.
QuoteSounds like propaganda to me.
Yep Card is all about propaganda.
Molly be aware propaganda works both ways.
QuoteBut, whatever problems there are can be solved without plunging us into a communist-fascist country.
Propaganda work great I see :laughing7:
QuoteIt should be handled by the states, along with hospitals, and doctors, with the feds sending money and nothing else.
That's just what it's all about. Money.
QuoteI can't get into a healthcare argument. The point is this bill is not the solution.
Solution for what? According to you everything is perfect. Perfect situations need no solutions.
Yeah I am certainly not into healthcare debates either Moll (or any political debates lol) but WW is right and that is what blows my mind, how a pregnant woman (Krissy) can't get care because she is no longer covered apparently because her abusive husband has left her and won't let her be covered under his insurance anymore, and there aren't many people who have the kind of cash it takes to pay for such care.
Likely there was lots of propaganda in that movie but there are many people who will vouch for the fact those who work for the insurance companies are paid to try and reject as many insurance claims as possible. It's money, money, money, it just completely blows me away is all. It's just that I've never known anything other than "free" healthcare (paid for by our taxes, yes they are much higher than yours but we are used to it and I would NEVER want it any other way!! To know that anyone can go to the hospital and get the care they need makes it very much worth it to me.).
Anyhow, not to hijack the thread, prophecy, carry on!
The problem is states differ, local gov'ts differ.
Has anybody seen what is happening to Card happen anywhere else? I haven't.
The problem isn't there's no healthcare there, the problem is there is no law, as far as I can see.
The solution for the country is not a top down solution. Watch the video, please. There are those who have been trying to turn us into the ussr-nazigermany for decades. And, there are those who have fought them their whole lives. This bill will not stand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5ju8IgaiGk
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2012, 07:06:55 PM
Has anybody seen what is happening to Card happen anywhere else? I haven't.
Please rephrase.
QuoteThe problem isn't there's no healthcare there, the problem is there is no law, as far as I can see.
The result is the same.
QuoteThe solution for the country is not a top down solution.
A law
is a top down solution Molly.
QuoteWatch the video, please. There are those who have been trying to turn us into the ussr-nazigermany for decades.
Maybe they already succeeded? But what do I know.... I'm living is a communist fascist country all my life.
I mean what is happening to Card is unlawful. I have seen unlawful things happen before but never something so simple turned so extreme. I've tried to express solutions but no one listens to me.
Centralized control of medicine works only for those who are not sick. If you don't need a doctor, you're fine. Otherwise, why would I meet Canadians who are coming here and paying for medical care out of their own pockets? Why do they do that? Because they are sick, that's why. And they have the money to do something about it.
You can't mandate a doctor to become a brilliant doctor with law. There are things that drive brilliant doctors to achieve but it isn't man's law.
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2012, 12:50:03 AM
QuoteI guess I was thinking about Paul's advice to be all things to all people.
When I posted ( It takes one to see one).
That still makes no sense. It takes one what to see what? What things were you being to all people when you said that?
It takes one too see one is a childish play ground retort.
It seemed. It seemed appropriate
QuoteWhen a person not controlled and led by the holy spirit.
DECLARES that some one has a demonic mind.
It is usually a demonic DECLARATION, meant to cause confusion and strife.
OK, so you are saying I made a 'demonic declaration'? And therefore I have a demonic mind? Or, wait, are you the one not controlled by the Holy Spirit and therefore, the one with the demonic mind who made the demonic declaration?
No I am saying if a person makes a demonic declaration the result will be confusion and strife
See your above post.
Did you even look at the video? No I didn't think so.
It doesn't concern you in any way unless you live in this country, so don't bother.
The demons Jesus cast out didn't live in my country.
And, nothing you ever say to me makes any sense to me, so don't waste your time responding. I'm not in a mood to be insulted today.
I did not insult you personally.
I cauterized the statements you posted.
On the other hand those post leave intelligentsia insulted.
Whoever wrote that bill has a demonic mind. The people who passed the bill did not even read it. I was not referring to them.
The person who wrote the Book of Mormon.
Was possessed by a Demon and wrote the word given to him from Satan.
. The person who wrote the Pearl of great Price.
Was possessed by a Demon and wrote the word given to him from Satan.
The person who wrote the Doctrines and Covenants of The Church of Jesus Christ
of the Latter- Day Saints
Was possessed by a Demon and wrote the word given to him from Satan.
These are not my declarations, but the declarations of the Holy Spirit
as found in the Word of God.
By the virtue of me not being an American .
Molly you are right that I don't understnd the pressure of the decsion you have to make soon.
On one hand you have a self proclaimed Elder with strong family roots
in a cult that denies the Deity of Jesus Christ.
On the other hand you have a man who acknowledges the Deity of Jesus Christ.
But if you look closely at a couple of the thousands of pages of a health care bill.
and especially if you don't like the bill .You will find demonic finger prints on it.
Molly, maybe this thing will be repealed and something passed that will indeed give people coverage without all the other trappings this current political machination holds. I have much more to say but probably best I not do so. It would probably offend.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 20, 2012, 08:17:25 PM
On the other hand you have a man who acknowledges the Deity of Jesus Christ.
Much more to it than that. Much of the U.S. and [I believe] most of the world gets their main picture of what's happening here from a distorted, biased, dishonest press, that is
apparently (per report) passed on as reality and the truth. Actually, I believe most of the press is biased one way or another. So one has to look closely. And, I believe it's much more likely to be able to look closely if one is actually here. You will know them by their fruit. I don't think there's a "perfect" candidate. At this point, there's one I moderately trust, and the other I distrust IMMENSELY, as I believe in many ways he is not what he seems. Some people are good at saying one thing and not only doing another, but actually having much different thoughts, values, and intent that they'd actually act on if given "free reign". I recall something about a wolf in sheep's clothing. That one is not discerned by a distant or casual/uninformed glance. (Not judging someone's spirit salvation, that's between them and God and only God know). But if I have a choice, I hope I'll at least choose between the least of 2 evils (as the saying goes). I am in Independent by the way, neither Republican or Democrat. I've only voted in one other Presidential election, but Lord willing, will be voting in this one.
Not for someone as much as against someone.OTOH, God's kingdom is not of this world, though much is playing out here leading up to the conclusion of His perfect will - His will
will be done on earth as it is in heaven. My limited view.
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2012, 11:25:09 AM
Right before a sociopath kills his victim, his mask comes off. I know this from reading about Ted Bundy. He wants to be seen in all his psychopathic glory by his victim before he kills her.
Natural predators, psychopaths use charm and deceit to entice their victims. They look mild mannered and unthreatening, even attractive. How did Ted get all those women to follow him to his car? Women are naturally suspicious of stranger men. But, Ted's technique worked like a charm and the women followed him naively and easily to their own destruction.
Watch closely past the charming smile and soothing words for hints of psychopathic rage. And, if he tells you he is going to push you over the fiscal cliff whether he wins or loses, believe him.
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2012, 08:27:03 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 20, 2012, 08:17:25 PM
On the other hand you have a man who acknowledges the Deity of Jesus Christ.
Much more to it than that. Much of the U.S. and [I believe] most of the world gets their main picture of what's happening here from a distorted, biased, dishonest press, that is apparently (per report) passed on as reality and the truth. Actually, I believe most of the press is biased one way or another. So one has to look closely. And, I believe it's much more likely to be able to look closely if one is actually here. You will know them by their fruit. I don't think there's a "perfect" candidate. At this point, there's one I moderately trust, and the other I distrust IMMENSELY, as I believe in many ways he is not what he seems. Some people are good at saying one thing and not only doing another, but actually having much different thoughts, values, and intent that they'd actually act on if given "free reign". I recall something about a wolf in sheep's clothing. That one is not discerned by a distant or casual/uninformed glance. (Not judging someone's spirit salvation, that's between them and God and only God know). But if I have a choice, I hope I'll at least choose between the least of 2 evils (as the saying goes). I am in Independent by the way, neither Republican or Democrat. I've only voted in one other Presidential election, but Lord willing, will be voting in this one. Not for someone as much as against someone.
OTOH, God's kingdom is not of this world, though much is playing out here leading up to the conclusion of His perfect will - His will will be done on earth as it is in heaven. My limited view.
Some people are good at saying one thing and not only doing another, but actually having much different thoughts, values, and intent that they'd actually act on if given "free reign".So are you Saying that if a person declares that Jesus is not God .
and was not born of the Virgin and the Word of God is not the final
arbitrator of all things.
He is just saying that so peoples don't realize that he actually is filled and led by the Holy Spirit? :dontknow:
In context of my statements, including what I quoted, I'm guessing you know what I meant. If truly not, please re-read. I think I was very careful in what I wrote. Still if not, I'll explain further and in more specific detail if you wish. :)
this world runs on money...Rev 13;17....economic boycott against all faithful believers....
anyone besides me..lost about everything materially? Ezekiel 38;12 I will plunder and loot and
turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations,rich in livestock
and goods,living in the center of the earth.
I will say this. Do you recall the demon possessed man following after the disciples yelling about Jesus being the Messiah? I also recall that the demons believe and tremble. Also Jesus' comments about those crying Lord, Lord. Again, I am NOT judging anyone's spirit salvation, whether they've had a saving experience with the Lord. But we can see peoples' fruit.
I read that during the Inquisition the Catholic soldiers would scream Jesus' name before they chopped off the heads of their victims. I'm all about people living for and proclaiming Jesus, but also very leery of the very real and present danger of false messiahs, wolves in sheep's clothing sneaking in to devour the sheep, and deceivers abounding.
All other things being equal, although I probably wouldn't really trust either one of them; if I perceive a man to be right upfront about who he really is, even if it's "bad"/not to my personal preference, vs. a slick, narcissistic person who has hidden most of his past (and paid millions of dollars to do it - including wiping many things off the internet) all the while claiming to be a "good" person - I'm more than likely going to have a lot more respect for the first individual.
Maybe it's even wrong to choose the least of 2 evils. Maybe one should just abstain. But I guess that's even another topic, and only loosely related to PROPHECY. :)
Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2012, 09:00:45 PM
In context of my statements, including what I quoted, I'm guessing you know what I meant. If truly not, please re-read. I think I was very careful in what I wrote. Still if not, I'll explain further and in more specific detail if you wish. :)
Yes please do.
I am perplexed on one hand as I see it we have some one who professes to be anti-christ
and is running to be the leader of the free world.
This goal of being the leader of the free world has been the goal of Joseph Smith,
since the first conversation he had with Satan,and past down to his adherents.
On the other hand we have some one who has already been the leader of the free world for
four years. He says Jesus is Lord, but he may be a sheep in lambs clothing.
Please use as much detail as you see fit.
Quote from: dajomaco
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
16 "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
--Mat 10:16
You are acting as if it's something new to us to be sheep amongst wolves. It's not, believe me.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 20, 2012, 09:30:38 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2012, 09:00:45 PM
In context of my statements, including what I quoted, I'm guessing you know what I meant. If truly not, please re-read. I think I was very careful in what I wrote. Still if not, I'll explain further and in more specific detail if you wish. :)
Yes please do.
I am perplexed on one hand as I see it we have some one who professes to be anti-christ
and is running to be the leader of the free world.
This goal of being the leader of the free world has been the goal of Joseph Smith,
since the first conversation he had with Satan,and past down to his adherents.
On the other hand we have some one who has already been the leader of the free world for
four years. He says Jesus is Lord, but he may be a sheep in lambs clothing.
Please use as much detail as you see fit.
I think my last post is as far as I'd like to go with it. Let the discerning discern, all seek God's guidance. And of course, those are just my opinions. Blessings.
And hey daj, if you don't like the Mormon, don't vote for him. :laughing7: :laugh:
:gimmefive:
(I do find your comments about "leader of the free world" and about Joseph Smith's ambitions interesting though. Thanks. More to consider.)
Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2012, 08:27:03 PM
Much more to it than that. Much of the U.S. and [I believe] most of the world gets their main picture of what's happening here from a distorted, biased, dishonest press, that is apparently (per report) passed on as reality and the truth. Actually, I believe most of the press is biased one way or another. So one has to look closely. And, I believe it's much more likely to be able to look closely if one is actually here. You will know them by their fruit.
Biased press isn't an US only thing. There was a time that people, especially living 'not here', were unable to get a full view. "Everything*" is on internet for everyone to see.
* Alternative and MSM, YouTube, forums, sites voicing opinions for all angles.
I have quite close look 'into' an American family and if what I learn from that I would spit on the flag instead of salute it.
BTW I'm not saying it's all sunshine here. It's rapidly spiraling down here too.
You can't judge everything by an outlier data point, ww.
I was thinking needed a larger sample size, but you used fancier language :laugh:
And don't spit on my flag. These colors don't run. :laugh: :laughing7: :Oops: :goodone: :hijacked:
Seriously, I believe there are many problems world-wide, and that CERTAINLY includes here. I believe many of us remaining "patriots" see this November as a possible crucial tipping point as to which way things go in this particular country - possibly the most important governmental decision in our lifetime. But who really knows besides God.
And as far as prophecy, "end times", great falling away, God's restoration, I'm just personally not sure what it all means.
What I THINK it means is however He does it and whatever happens first, God's going to step in soon and "fix" it. :2c:
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2012, 10:07:17 PM
You can't judge everything by an outlier data point, ww.
No but I've see quite a few data points and they seem to point to an unhealthy bell curve :sigh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2012, 10:14:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2012, 10:07:17 PM
You can't judge everything by an outlier data point, ww.
No but I've see quite a few data points and they seem to point to an unhealthy bell curve :sigh:
World-wide, friend, world-wide. So what does it mean in terms of God's timing and work?
Well, according to this man I saw on the Dr. Phill show the world will end in December. So none of this will matter any way. :eek:
CHB
Regarding prophecy, I think America is the young lions of Tarshish who will fight against the enemies of Israel, assuming we are not pushed off the fiscal cliff and our military budget cut by 600 billion on January 1, 2013. :laugh:
Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? Eze 38:13
The young lions will say to Gog and his allies,
'Do you really think the armies you have gathered can rob them of silver and gold? Do you think you can drive away their livestock and seize their goods and carry off plunder?' Eze 38
Even strong young lions sometimes go hungry, but those who trust in the LORD will lack no good thing. Psa 34:10
Quote from: CHB on October 20, 2012, 10:29:20 PM
Well, according to this man I saw on the Dr. Phill show the world will end in December. So none of this will matter any way. :eek:
CHB
Was he the last Mayan standing? :wink3:
Wow, don't think I'd ever seen that before Molly. Hmmm...
I'm for a strong military, USED APPROPRIATELY!!!!, actually making it unecessary to use. Maybe there'll actually be a righteous reason for it?
Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2012, 10:10:51 PM
I was thinking needed a larger sample size, but you used fancier language :laugh:
That's good. But keep in mind that bad stuff always happens elsewhere. Everyone lives elsewhere from the Pov of the other 7 billon people...
QuoteAnd don't spit on my flag. These colors don't run. :laugh: :laughing7: :Oops: :goodone: :hijacked:
I can't spit that far. Don't worry. Besides I need my spit for local affairs :winkgrin:
QuoteSeriously, I believe there are many problems world-wide, and that CERTAINLY includes here.
James, 'here' is existing less and less every day.
In a few weeks you can hand vote for a clown that's now handing out balloons. The next day that clown seems to be the Joker. And guess what. Every country has their own clowns. The Eurpean clowns start to act very similar to your clowns. And, ahum, purely coincidental, those clowns take orders from the same "ex" Banksters.
QuoteI believe many of us remaining "patriots" see this November as a possible crucial tipping point as to which way things go in this particular country - possibly the most important governmental decision in our lifetime. But who really knows besides God.
Is there really something to chose from. Electric chair or hanging.....
Politics (no matter what continent) isn't going to change anything. I'm sorry so say but only mass executions will put an end to this downward spiral. But that neither a likely nor a desirable option. But, unfortunately, history shows most huge changes cost huge amounts of lives.
QuoteAnd as far as prophecy, "end times", great falling away, God's restoration, I'm just personally not sure what it all means.
What I THINK it means is however He does it and whatever happens first, God's going to step in soon and "fix" it. :2c:
Even 1st century Jews believed that. Followed by countless others.
Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2012, 10:22:18 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2012, 10:14:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2012, 10:07:17 PM
You can't judge everything by an outlier data point, ww.
No but I've see quite a few data points and they seem to point to an unhealthy bell curve :sigh:
World-wide, friend, world-wide. So what does it mean in terms of God's timing and work?
I think God will stay on the sideline for few more years.
Quote from: CHB on October 20, 2012, 10:29:20 PM
Well, according to this man I saw on the Dr. Phill show the world will end in December. So none of this will matter any way. :eek:
CHB
(http://www.dailyfunnystuff.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Mayan-Calendar.jpg)
Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2012, 10:32:24 PM
Wow, don't think I'd ever seen that before Molly. Hmmm...
I'm for a strong military, USED APPROPRIATELY!!!!, actually making it unecessary to use. Maybe there'll actually be a righteous reason for it?
Do your own research but watch this.
An Urgent Message for America
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt44D6ZlFKI
And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power. Hab 3:4
Psalm 93:7 Fire goes before him and consumes his foes on every side
I'll check it out Molly. May have to be later on my personal computer where I can watch videos. Thanks.
Quote from: sheila on October 20, 2012, 09:07:21 PM
this world runs on money...Rev 13;17....economic boycott against all faithful believers....
anyone besides me..lost about everything materially? Ezekiel 38;12 I will plunder and loot and
turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations,rich in livestock
and goods,living in the center of the earth.
Let's remember to hold each other up in prayer. And God is holding us up in His Strong Hands.
Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2012, 10:30:32 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 20, 2012, 10:29:20 PM
Well, according to this man I saw on the Dr. Phill show the world will end in December. So none of this will matter any way. :eek:
CHB
Was he the last Mayan standing? :wink3:
AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that made me crack up so hard hahahaha thanks a bunch for the laugh, been needing a good one lately!!
QuoteQuote from: sheila on Today at 03:07:21 PM
this world runs on money...Rev 13;17....economic boycott against all faithful believers....
anyone besides me..lost about everything materially? Ezekiel 38;12 I will plunder and loot and
turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations,rich in livestock
and goods,living in the center of the earth.
Not yet but I have a feeling it's coming in the very near future... Meh, naked I came LOL! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2012, 09:40:52 PM
And hey daj, if you don't like the Mormon, don't vote for him. :laughing7: :laugh:
:gimmefive:
(I do find your comments about "leader of the free world" and about Joseph Smith's ambitions interesting though. Thanks. More to consider.)
I can't vote I don't have picture I.D. :ok:
If Mitt and I didn't have opposite spirits .
I think that he and I would hang together and be buds.
We both have the same moves in the same crowd.
:egyptdance: :beach: :Egyptdance2:
Are you kidding me? Does this mean we are officially a third world country now?
International monitors at US polling places draw criticism
By Alexander Bolton - 10/20/12 12:00 PM ET
United Nations-affiliated election monitors from Europe and central Asia will be at polling places around the U.S. looking for voter suppression activities by conservative groups, a concern raised by civil rights groups during a meeting this week. The intervention has drawn criticism from a prominent conservative-leaning group combating election fraud.
http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/263141-international-monitors-at-polling-places-draw-criticism-from-voter-fraud-group
Who Were the Merchants of Tarshish?
Who are the enigmatical "merchants of Tarshish" and the "young lions" mentioned by God's seer, Ezekiel, in his Time of the End vision contained in the 38th chapter of his amazing Book? This question has long been posed by students of the Bible, with a variety of answers being given. One of the sources of power and wealth of King Solomon of Israel was his control of a "navy of Tarshish", which worked in cooperation with that of Hiram, King of Tyre. This doubtless was the beginning of the extensive Tarshish trade with the nation of Israel. The record reads: "For the king had at sea a navy of Tarshish with the navy of Hiram : once in three years came the navy of Tarshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks." Many of these products came from Africa -- and even from the far East. But we know for certain that Palestinian produce, of various kinds, was traded, by sea, with the peoples of Europe, even as far distant as the British Isles.
Most important of these commodities was tin from south-west Britain, important for weapons of war, for tin was the alloy which was mixed with copper to form the much stronger metal, brass. This was used in the armour and weapons of Solomon's soldiers. It gave them a definite superiority over enemies not so equipped. The tin trade was also to figure dramatically at the time of Yeshua the Messiah. His great-uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, by firm tradition a wealthy merchant, owned a fleet of ships which brought tin and lead from Britain to his home ports in Palestine, as in the days of Solomon. Persistent Glastonbury and English West Country traditions maintain that the Messiah sailed with Joseph in one of his ships on a trading expedition to England, when He was yet a boy. According to the traditions, the church at Pilton, Somerset, is built upon the site of the wharf where Joseph landed, to load the ore which had been mined in the nearby Mendip Hills. The sea has since receded from this place, but at that time Joseph would sail by the island then called Avalon, which is now the location of the town of Glastonbury. It was to this hallowed place that Joseph fled, with his company, at the time of the persecution of the Christians in Jerusalem, soon after the death of the Messiah upon the tree. Together with twelve other devoted pioneers, he erected the first Christian meeting-place structure at Glastonbury, about A.D. 37-38.
Thus, links between Britain with the Holy Land were established by Solomon as early as 976 B.C. This was an economic factor which helped build and maintain his great kingdom: it was the zenith of Israel in Canaan. The spiritual link was to be forged a thousand years later when Joseph founded the Christian community at Glastonbury. The result of this was the comparatively unhindered growth of the Christian Ecclesia in the Isles of the West, free from the obstacles met by their comrades in Jerusalem and elsewhere in the Roman Empire of the day.
It is significant that the main home base for the "ships of Tarshish" was not Tyre, but a place just outside the pillars of Hercules, called by the Romans "Gades". This was on the Atlantic side of Gibraltar, near the mouth of the Guadalquivir River in south-western Spain. This port came later to be called Cadiz -- in about the 12th century. In more modern times it became the chief base for the navy of Spain under Philip Il. In Davis' The Dictionary of the Bible we find it definitely identified with Tarshish: "It is believed that Tarshish was Tartessus in the south of Spain, near Gibraltar . . . ships of Tarshish were originally ships trading to and from Tarshish; but ultimately ships of first-rate size to whatever place their voyages may have been made."
Thus, it is seen that large sea-going ships carried goods in trade from Tarshish to the four points of the compass. We know from Ezekiel's words that "ships out of Tarshish" traded in iron, tin and lead. Although there were mines in Spain producing tin, these became exhausted and the ships sailed elsewhere in quest of their much-prized tin and lead. They found it in Cornwall and Somerset, in England. They also traded in the much-prized North Sea amber.
In this way, the ships of Tarshish provided the metals so essential to the building up of the ancient Mediterranean empires and of the Middle East. From various authorities of the sixth century, the following description of Tarshish has emerged: "Tartessus is an illustrious city of lberia which takes its name from Baetis (Quadalquivir) formerly also called Tartessus. This river comes from the Celtic region and has its source in the 'silver mountain'; in its stream it carries, besides silver and tin, a great abundance of gold and bronze. The river Tartessus divides into two arms when it reaches the mouth. Tartessus, the city, stands between the two arms, as on an island."
We know that these trading vessels sailed east, south and north, trading their wares. One important port in the north was at the mouth of the River Thames. According to tradition, it was founded by the Trojan prince, Brutus, about 1150 B.C. and now known as the city of London. Other ports in north-west Europe were reached as the merchants of Tarshish built more and bigger ships. But what of trade with the American continent to the west? Were these people able to build ships large enough to span the Atlantic ocean?
There are recently discovered pointers to trade with both Celts and Indians who had by then established themselves in North America. Mysterious inscriptions have been discovered, deep in the interior of the United States showing that a thousand years of commerce was carried on between Tarshish in Spain and their Celtic colonies in what is now the United States. Their ships regularly traded with the northeastern coastland : inscriptions on rocks have been found with Tarshish lettering. Even more; these ancient mariners entered the Mississippi from the Gulf of Mexico, penetrating inland to Iowa and the Dakotas and westward along the Arkansas and Cimarron Rivers to leave behind inscribed records of their presence there. In 1975 an inscription was found at Union, New Hampshire with excellently preserved Tarshish letters: "Voyagers from Tarshish this Stone proclaims."
Recent archaeological finds inspired the book, America, B.C., by Professor Barry Fell of Harvard University. From page 100 we quote his words: "The script of itself cannot be accurately dated, but a likely estimate would be about 700 to 600 B.C. The voyagers were probably not explorers but rather merchants trading with the New England Celts who, by that dates, were already well established fur trappers and very likely also mining precious metals from those sites where ancient workings have been discovered." If the findings of Professor Fell are accurate, large colonies of Celts had been brought by ship from Tarshish, Spain, to mine for ore and trap for furs and thus to establish trading posts deep within the American continent. They must surely be recognized as belonging to Ezekiel's "merchants of Tarshish".
Thus, since there was such substantial trade with the continent known today as America, "the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof" must include the "young lions" of the United States, along with those of Britain and kindred folk in northern Europe. Today the population of the United States is made up basically of Celto-Saxon peoples. Although they had in 1776 been separated politically from the mass of Israel, then Britain, the "young lions" of America came storming back, across the Atlantic in 1917, to help defend Britain and the free world against tyranny. They came again in 1942 during World War II -- millions of them -- from America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa to fight in common cause against tyranny and aggression.
-- J.A.B. Haggart
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/tarshish.html
I think my last post is as far as I'd like to go with it. Let the discerning discern, all seek God's guidance. And of course, those are just my opinions. Blessings.
Thank you Jabcat.
We have one mind. We share the mind of Christ.
It seems because of the Globe we are in different lobes.
Seek and yee shall find .
Thank you for the encouragement to keep seeking.
:gimmefive:
Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2012, 04:41:33 PM
Some have said on this thread that armies don't fight on horseback anymore and that proves that the book of Revelation is only spiritual. So, imagine my surprise when I saw the new statue being dedicated to the horse soldier at ground zero. He's facing the trade center, keeping a watchful eye on it. These were the first soldiers to enter Afghanistan, due to the difficult terrain there, I assume, and the accessibility and versatility of horses. The horse soldier is dedicated to honor our troops and the special forces who were the first to enter Afghanistan on horseback, as well as the firemen and police who lost their lives at ground zero. He carries the motto of the Green Berets, De Oppresso Liber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:America%27s_Response_Monument-De_Oppresso_Liber.jpg
After the fourhorsemen are released and then the other seals, plus the trumpet judgments, tech would take a onslaught.
I personally see a kind of apocalyptic future of horseback and maybe a few vehicles and high tech weaponry available to the lucky few.
But I still think prayer can limit the damage and may only encompass the middle east area, where most of the battles will take place. The gog and magog war, the wars of the little horn against Egypt and the holy covenant and against the kings of the east and the battle of armageddon.
The current tensions taking place may not even be the gog and magog war.
So either that war takes place after armageddon the last war on earth.
Or could be after the war in the middle east, currently brewing. But yet that war brewing is not spoken in scripture therefore can be stopped and I believe it will be stopped and peace will prevail in Jesus name, as prophecied by Gods servants.
I think this is another reference to the young lions of Tarshish [America]
[Great Britain, the islands, is mentioned, too.]
"Who are these that fly along like clouds,
like doves to their nests?
9 Surely the islands look to me;
in the lead are the ships of Tarshish,
bringing your children from afar,
with their silver and gold,
to the honor of the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor.
10 "Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.
11 Your gates will always stand open,
they will never be shut, day or night,
so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations—
their kings led in triumphal procession.
12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined
--Isa 60
8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the Lord thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
--Isa 60
"the forces of the Gentiles" is an army but it is an army friendly to Israel.
mOLLY, WHEN YOU ARE BORN FROM ABOVE... THE DOVES ARE WISDOMS ARMY.......THE
WOMEN WHO DECLARE THE GOSPEL ARE A GREAT ARMY...jERUSALEM aBOVE NURTURES HER
OFFSPRING OF THEM[TAUGHT OF THE hOLY SPIRIT IN THE FORM OF THE DOVE.] A DOVE IS ALL
BREAST 'YE SHALL SUCK THE TEATS OF HER AMPLE BREASTS AND DELIGHT IN HER ABUNDANCE.
THAT IS OF THE SIGN IN HEAVEN...
AS FOR iSREAL[THE NATION] THAT IS NOW...i DO NOT SPEAK OF THE SIGN IN THE EARTH..BUT i TELL
YOU THIS...THE jERUSALEM ON EARTH DOES NEED BE BORN AGAIN FROM aBOVE.
GOD IN wISDOM FOUNDED THE EARTH....
THERE ARE THREE THINGS..EVEN FOUR..THAT THE EARTH CAN not BEAR...ONE OF THEM IS
A MAIDSERVANT WHO DISPLACES HER MISTRESS.......
IN SOS THE 'LITTLE' SISTER WITHOUT ANY BREASTS IS THE OLD LAW COVENANT.........THE
mOST bEAUTIFUL OF WOMEN HAS 'BREASTS LIKE TOWERS"
THERE ARE ALSO THREE THINGS EVEN FOUR THAT ARE TOO WONDERFUL....ONE OF THESE
IS THE WAY OF A SHIP ON THE HIGH SEAS.[WITH THEIR SAILS SKIMMING THE WATER THEY APPEAR
TO FLY[AS IF THEY HAVE WINGS]
ALSO WISDOM'S ARMY IS KNOWN AS LIONESSES OF THE TRIBE OF jUDAH
ThinkTank,
QuoteBut I still think prayer can limit the damage and may only encompass the middle east area, where most of the battles will take place. The gog and magog war, the wars of the little horn against Egypt and the holy covenant and against the kings of the east and the battle of armageddon.
The current tensions taking place may not even be the gog and magog war.
So either that war takes place after armageddon the last war on earth.
Or could be after the war in the middle east, currently brewing. But yet that war brewing is not spoken in scripture therefore can be stopped and I believe it will be stopped and peace will prevail in Jesus name, as prophecied by Gods servants.
I'll tell ya TT, I've often mused on just these issues, about whether through a vast quantity of prayer & supplication that all the things in the book of Revelation as you suggest cannot be dealt with in another way, prayer, our prayers.
It sometimes depresses me that there needs to be a "book of Revelation" in God's plan, what with all the heartache human creatures need to go through in just dealing with the everyday toil of just living life itself, only to have additional misery piled on us such that God needs to write a book of Revelation to inform us that the worst is yet to come. Why do things need to be so miserable? This is a question I ask of God every single day.
I suppose God needs a method by which he proves to his human creatures that he is in full control of everything, that there is no circumstance in the universe that is ever beyond his sovereignty. His witness of this being his written prophecies in the pages of Holy Writ that he can make all things come to pass exactly as he states it. But the flow of human blood & pain to make this point? It is flabbergasting to me to say the least. For example: What is the purpose of child molestation? How does God make something so hideous as a "part of his Plan"? Or for that matter just plain raw brutal torture by one human committed on another? What kind of a plan is that? Yet this is what the book of Revelation is replete with.
Innately, we as humans do not want all this turmoil, all of us only want a decent space of time on earth during which we can raise our families unmolested by exterior forces of evil, yet God does not afford most of us that small luxury, and most who do attain to it die an ignominious death anyway, almost as if our life's experiences were for naught. And then on top of this he promises endtime earthlings the miseries of the book of Revelation..........to prove what?
that the end times could surpass the atrocities of ages past is almost beyond imagination. Hitlers Germany, Stalins Russia, the killing fields of Cambodia, the persecution of Christians and Jews in Russia and China. The tortures of the Inquisition and the persecutions of the Ana-baptists and others by the Roman Catholic Church. Everywhere you look in history, somewhere people are living through their own "end times". Africa is covered with madness, disease and anarchy.
Really, we have lived in one of a few small windows of relative sanity in this country, because of the purpose for which we were raised up(to be a Cyrus to the budding fig tree of Israel, the provide an international platform for the growth of democracy and the gospel).
If the Father allowed His own Son to suffer at the hands of wicked men, and calls us as sons to share in that suffering (if we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him) what are we to but trust Him?
QuoteInnately, we as humans do not want all this turmoil, all of us only want a decent space of time on earth during which we can raise our families unmolested by exterior forces of evil
that's what you want, but it would be a mistake to project that onto the rest of the world.
there is a spirit in the world, a restlessness, a selfish desire for their own good, not a higher good, a thirst for power--the default position of the world is evil all the time.
It's going to be like in the days of Noah at the end of the age, Jesus tells us. One thing we know about those days--
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually Gen 6
There is no reason to expect any differently today.
Quote from: Molly on October 23, 2012, 05:31:44 AM
QuoteInnately, we as humans do not want all this turmoil, all of us only want a decent space of time on earth during which we can raise our families unmolested by exterior forces of evil
that's what you want, but it would be a mistake to project that onto the rest of the world.
there is a spirit in the world, a restlessness, a selfish desire for their own good, not a higher good, a thirst for power--the default position of the world is evil all the time.
It's going to be like in the days of Noah at the end of the age, Jesus tells us. One thing we know about those days--
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually Gen 6
There is no reason to expect any differently today.
This is why we are to go on shining as lamps upon the lampstand. The darkness is still enveloping the world, in this present evil age- but among us the day has dawned. Come quickly Lord Jesus.
"At that time I will destroy
your war horses," announces the Lord.
"I will smash your chariots.
11 I will destroy the cities in your land.
I will tear down all of your forts.
12 I will destroy your worship of evil powers.
You will no longer be able
to put a spell on anyone.
13 I will destroy the statues of your gods.
I will take your sacred stones away from you. <-----mecca?
You will no longer bow down
to the gods your hands have made.
14 I will pull down the poles you used
to worship the goddess Asherah.
And I will destroy your cities completely.
15 I will pay back the nations
that have not obeyed me.
My anger will burn against them."
--Micah 5
Asherah ( /ˈæʃərə/; Ugaritic: : 'ṯrt; Hebrew: אֲשֵׁרָה), in Semitic mythology, is a Semitic mother goddess, who appears in a number of ancient sources including Akkadian writings by the name of Ashratum/Ashratu and in Hittite as Asherdu(s) or Ashertu(s) or Aserdu(s) or Asertu(s). Asherah is generally considered identical with the Ugaritic goddess Athirat (more accurately transcribed as ʼAṯirat).
She is identified as the wife or consort of the Sumerian Anu or Ugaritic El, the oldest deities of their pantheons.[1][2] This role gave her a similarly high rank in the Ugaritic pantheon.[3] The name Allat (Elat, Ilat) in the Sanchuniathon is clearly associated with Asherah, because the same common epithet of "the goddess par excellence," is used to describe her.[4] The Book of Jeremiah written circa 628 BC possibly refers to Asherah when it uses the title "Queen of Heaven" (Hebrew: לִמְלֶכֶת הַשָּׁמַיִם) in Jer 7:18 and Jer 44:17–19, 25.[5] (For a discussion of "queen of heaven" in the Hebrew Bible, see Queen of heaven.)
--Wikipedia
Quote from: eaglesway on October 23, 2012, 04:42:15 AM
that the end times could surpass the atrocities of ages past is almost beyond imagination. Hitlers Germany, Stalins Russia, the killing fields of Cambodia, the persecution of Christians and Jews in Russia and China. The tortures of the Inquisition and the persecutions of the Ana-baptists and others by the Roman Catholic Church. Everywhere you look in history, somewhere people are living through their own "end times". Africa is covered with madness, disease and anarchy.
Really, we have lived in one of a few small windows of relative sanity in this country, because of the purpose for which we were raised up(to be a Cyrus to the budding fig tree of Israel, the provide an international platform for the growth of democracy and the gospel).
If the Father allowed His own Son to suffer at the hands of wicked men, and calls us as sons to share in that suffering (if we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him) what are we to but trust Him?
All right on the money Eagle. But I still have never liked it very much & maybe never will. Of course I'm sure I'm having tremendous hangover from my "hippie days" & still haven't done a good job of getting my mind wrapped around Ecc 3: 10-11 and especially 11, where God explicitly tells us there are a lot of things in his plan about which he purposely keeps us in total ignorance.
I can somewhat understand why he wants us in the dark about a lot of stuff, but even inside that small dimension of knowledge I don't like it, and yes, often resent and even resent God for bringing it on us, the only comfort being that as the Apostle Paul stated, that these "afflictions" are for only a short time compared to the eternity that follows our resurrection. My response to the Apostle Paul has long been that "short" can be interminably long when excruciating pain to the central nervous system has been encountered on a daily basis for thousands of "earth years" by so many generations of families who just want to live in peace, who just want the book of Revelation canceled & another plan put in place.
Quote from: PaulI can somewhat understand why he wants us in the dark about a lot of stuff, but even inside that small dimension of knowledge I don't like it
I don't think he wants us in the dark. I think it's more that we don't always want to hear what he has to say...
Indeed, the Sovereign LORD never does anything until he reveals his plans to his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7
John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
Quote from: Molly on October 23, 2012, 05:53:22 PM
Quote from: PaulI can somewhat understand why he wants us in the dark about a lot of stuff, but even inside that small dimension of knowledge I don't like it
I don't think he wants us in the dark. I think it's more that we don't always want to hear what he has to say...
Like so many Mol, I almost constantly look for that "still small voice", sometimes I think it's there when I'm alone & strumming a melody to the chords of my guitar, then just as quickly it seems to vanish like a disappearing shadow on a wall. I suppose it could be said that I, like a lot of us born in America, are just simply not as thankful as we should be, we take for granted our freedoms so many others down through history have been denied, just as Eagle suggested previously, or maybe I'm just too much of a romantic. In the long run it's all relative I suppose, even still, I want God to cancel the book of Revelation.
Good post though Mol, you always seem to have an encouraging spirit about you......
Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
I don't care what they may know
I don't care where they may go
I don't care what they may know
Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
Jesus, he's my friend; Jesus, he's my friendHe took me by the hand; Led me far from this land
Jesus, he's my friend
Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
I don't care what they may say, I don't care what they may do
I don't care what they may say, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
Doobie Bros
He knows what we can handle at any given time, too.
"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
--John 16:12
1 Corinthians 3:2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
Does Romney really think we are going to be successful in bringing freedom to the world?
Naw I don't think so.
Does Obama really think, with his intimate knowledge of Islam, that muslims will ever give respect and equality to women or enter into the goals of the West?
Naw I don't think so.
So we must read between the lines, as always.
Quote from: Molly on October 23, 2012, 07:43:08 PM
Does Romney really think we are going to be successful in bringing freedom to the world?
Naw I don't think so.
Does Obama really think, with his intimate knowledge of Islam, that muslims will ever give respect and equality to women or enter into the goals of the West?
Naw I don't think so.
So we must read between the lines, as always.
Thank you for insisting we read between the lines.
Does Romney really think we are going to be successful in bringing freedom to the world?Molly when you say
we what do you mean.
Does Romney really think
we ( people who are born again) .......
Does Romney really think
we( people who believe in Jesus).......
Does Romney really think
we( people who believe in Joseph Smith).....
Does Romney really think
we (Republicans) .......
Does Romney really think
we (Americans)........
Does Romney really think
we (Democrats).........
Naw I don't think so.Does Obama really think, with his intimate knowledge of Islam, that muslims will ever give respect and equality to women or enter into the goals of the West?[/i]
The goals of the west ? To spread the Love of Christ abroad?
I agree Obama doesn't really think Muslims will embrace this cause.
The goals of the west? To spread the cause of Mormonism abroad ?
I think Romney doesn't really think Muslims will embrace this cause.
Will ever give respect and equality to women.
Do you mean equality ( like equal pay for equal work?)
Look forward to your answers :Chinscratch:
Naw I don't think so.
Lets leave politics out of this discussion. Go back to the original prophecy question or statement please.
There are numerous political boards already out there.
Yeah. I was commenting on what was put before me. But, I'm afraid in this case, prophecy
is going to be only made clearer in retrospect. Although one would think one could predict what will happen from prophecy, and I probably could take a stab at it amongst people more willing to discuss it, it seems to be beyond me at this moment for this board.
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 23, 2012, 08:57:14 PM
Lets leave politics out of this discussion. Go back to the original prophecy question or statement please.
There are numerous political boards already out there.
I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
--2 Cor 3
...for the testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10
Truth has nothing to do with politics. (and politicians have nothing to do with the truth)
What's true is Gods prophecy 100% of the time.
I for one was beginning to think that the "Book of Revelation" was changing to " Guessing Current Events" or "Religion & Political Satire." :doh:
:laugh: :2c: :iagree:
If I didn't write this line my whole commentary could have been whatever those thingys are that I click on. :dontknow:
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 23, 2012, 11:34:46 PM
I for one was beginning to think that the "Book of Revelation" was changing to " Guessing Current Events" or "Religion & Political Satire." :doh:
It's just that we need to catch our breath from time to time before taking up another round........
CHAPTER FIVE. THE GENIUS AND CHARACTER OF THE ANTICHRIST.
For six thousand years Satan has had full opportunity afforded him to study fallen human nature to discover its weakest points and to learn how best to make men do his bidding. The Devil knows full well how to dazzle men by the attraction of power, and how to make them quail before its terrors. He knows how to gratify the craving for knowledge and how to satisfy the taste for refinement and culture, he can delight the ear with melodious music and the eye with entrancing beauty. If he could transport the Saviour from the wilderness to a mountain, in a moment of time, and show Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, he is no novice in the art of presenting alluring objects before his victims today. He knows how to stimulate energy and direct inquiry, and how to appease the craving for the occult. He knows how to exalt men to dizzy heights of worldly greatness and fame, and how to control that greatness when attained, so that it may be employed against God and his people.
It is true that up to now Satan's power has been restrained, and his activities have been checked and often counteracted by the Spirit of God. The brightest fires of the Devil's kindling can burn but dimly whilever God sheds around them the power of heavenly light. They require the full darkness of night in order to shine in the full strength of their deceiving brightness; and that time is coming. The Word of God reveals the fact that a day is not far distant when Divine restraint will be removed; the light of God will be withdrawn; and then shall "darkness cover the earth and gross darkness the people" (Isa. 60:2). Not only will that which has hindered the full development of the Mystery of Iniquity be removed, but God will "send them strong delusion that they should believe the Lie" (2 Thess. 2:13), and Satan will take advantage of this; he will then make full use of all the knowledge which he has acquired during the last six thousand years.
Satan will become incarnate and appear on earth in human form. As we have shown in previous chapters, the Antichrist will not only be the Man of Sin, but also "the Son of Perdition", the Seed of the Serpent. The Antichrist will be the Devil's masterpiece. In him shall dwell all the fulness of the Devil bodily. He will be the culmination and consummation of Satan's workings. The world is now talking of and looking for the Superman; and the Devil is soon to supply him. The Antichrist will be no ordinary person, but one possessed of extraordinary talents. He will be endowed with superhuman powers. With the one exception of the God-man he will be the most remarkable personage who has ever appeared upon the stage of human history. But to particularize:
1. He will be an intellectual genius.
He will be possessed of extraordinary intelligence. He will be the Devil's imitation of that blessed One "in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Col. 2:3). This Son of Perdition will surpass Solomon in wisdom. In Dan. 7:20 he is represented as "A horn that had eyes". It is a double symbol. The "horn" prefigures strength; "eyes" speak of intelligence. Again, in Dan. 8:23 he is referred to as "A King of fierce countenance". who shall "understand dark sentences". That which baffles others shall be simple to him. The Hebrew word here translated "dark sentences" is the same as the one rendered "hard questions" in 1 Kings 10:1, where we read of the Queen of Sheba coming to Solomon with her "hard questions" in order to test his wisdom. It is also the word that is used in Samson's riddle in Judges 14. It indicates that the Antichrist will be master of all the secrets of occult science. Ezek. 28:3 declares of him "Beholding, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee". This will be one of his most alluring attractions. His master mind will captivate the educated world. His marvelous store of knowledge, his acquaintance with the secrets of nature, his superhuman powers of perception, will stamp him as an intellectual genius of the first magnitude.
2. He will be an oratorical genius.
In Dan. 7:20 we are told that he has "a mouth that spake very great things". As a wizard of words he will surpass Demosthenes. Here also will the Devil imitate that One "who spake as never man spake". The people were "astonished" at Christ's doctrine (Matt. 7:28), and said "Whence hath this man this wisdom?" (Matt. 13:54). So will it be with this daring counterfeiter: he will have a mouth speaking very great things. He will have a perfect command and flow of language. His oratory will not only gain attention but command respect. Rev. 13:2 declares that his mouth is "as the mouth of a lion" which is a symbolic expression telling of the majesty and awe producing effects of his voice. The voice of the lion excels that of any other beast. So the Antichrist will out rival orators ancient and modern.
3. He will be a political genius.
He will emerge from obscurity, but by dint of his diplomatic skill he will win the admiration and compel the cooperation of the political world. In the early stages of his career he appears as "a little horn" (or power), but it is not long before he climbs the ladder of fame, and by means of brilliant statesmanship, ascends its topmost rung. Like the majority of politicians, he will not scruple to employ questionable methods; in fact it will be by diplomatic chicanery and intrigue that he will win his early successes. Dan. 11:21 tells us that at first they will not give to him the honor of the kingdom, but "he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries". Once he gains the ascendancy none will dare to challenge his authority. Kings will be his pawns and princes his playthings.
4. He will be a commercial genius.
"And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand" (Dan. 8:25). Under his regime everything will be nationalized, and none will be able to buy or sell without his permission (Rev. 13:17). All commerce will be under his personal control, and this will be used for his own aggrandizement. The wealth of the world will be at his disposal. There are several scriptures which call attention to this. For example in Psa. 52:7 we read, "Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches; and strengthened himself in his substance". Again, in Dan. 11:38 we are told, "But in his estate shall he honor the god of forces (Satan): and a god whom his fathers knew not shall be honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things". Even plainer is Dan. 11:43, "But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt". In the last verse of Dan. 11 mention is made of his "palace". He will be wealthier than Croesus. Ezak. 28:4,5 speaks of him thus, "With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: By thy great wisdom and by thy traffic hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches". Thus will he be able to wield the sceptre of financial power and outdo Solomon in all his glory.
5. He will be a military genius.
He will be endowed with the most extraordinary powers, so that "he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people" (Dan. 8:24). Before his exploits the fame of Alexander and Napoleon will be forgotten. None will be able to stand before him. He will go "forth conquering and to conquer" (Rev. 6:2). He will sweep everything before him so that the world will exclaim, "Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make war with him?" (Rev. 13:4). His military exploits will not be confined to a corner, but carried out on a vast scale. He is spoken of as the man who will "shake kingdoms" and "make the earth to tremble" (Isa. 14:16).
6. He will be a governmental genius.
He will weld together opposing forces. He will unify conflicting agencies. Under the compelling power of his skill the world Powers will be united. The dream of a League of Nations will then be realized. The Orient and the Occident shall no longer be divided. A marvelous symbolic picture of this is given us in Rev. 13:1,2: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a Beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the Beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the Dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority". Here we find the forces of the Roman, the Grecian, the Medo-Persian, and the Babylonian empires coalesced. He will be the personal embodiment of the world's political authority in its final form. So completely will the world be swayed by the hypnotic spell cast over it by the Beast that the ten kings of the Roman empire in its ultimate form shall "give their kingdoms unto him" (Rev. 17:17). He will be the last great Caesar.
7. He will be a religious genius.
He will proclaim himself God, demanding that Divine honors should be rendered to him and sitting in the Temple shall show himself forth that he is God (2 Thess. 2:4). Such wonders will he perform, such prodigious marvels will he work, the very elect would be deceived by him did not God directly protect them. The Man of Sin will combine in himself all the varied genius of the human race, and what is more, he will be invested with all the wisdom and power of Satan. He will be a master of science, acquainted with all of nature's forces, compelling her to give up for him her long held secrets. "In this master-piece of Satan", says one, "will be concentrated intellectual greatness, sovereign power and human glory, combined with every species of iniquity, pride, tyranny, wilfulness, deceit, and blasphemy, such as Antiochus Epiphanes, Mohammed, the whole line of popes, atheists, and deists of every age of the world have failed to unite in any individual person".
"All the world wondered after the Beast" (Rev. 13:3). His final triumph shall be that, wounded by a sword, he shall live again (Rev. 13:3). He shall raise himself from the dead, and so wonder-struck will men be at this stupendous marvel they will readily pay him Divine homage, yea, so great will be his dazzling power over men, they will worship his very image (Rev. 13:14,15).
Having contemplated something of the genius of Satan's prodigy, let us now consider his character. In doing so we shall view him in the light of the Character of the Lord Jesus. Christ is the Divine plumb-line and standard of measurement by which all character must be tested.
In our last chapter we pointed out how that the distinguishing title of the coming Super-man - the Antichrist - has a double significance, inasmuch as it points to him as the imitator of Christ and the opponent of Christ. Hence, in studying his character, we find a series of comparisons and a series of contrasts drawn between the false christ and the true Christ; and these we now propose to set before the reader.
Comparisons between Christ and the Antichrist.
Satan is the master-counterfeiter, and in nothing will this appear more conspicuously than in his next great move. He is now preparing the stage for his climactic production, which will issue in a blasphemous imitation of the Divine incarnation. When the Son of Perdition appears he will pose as the Christ of God, and so perfect will be his disguise, the very elect would be deceived, were it not that God will grant them special illumination. It is this disguise, this simulation of the true Christ which we shall now examine, pointing out the various parallelisms which Scripture furnishes:
1. Christ was the subject of Old Testament prophecy: so also is the Antichrist; many are the predictions which describe this coming one, see especially Dan. 11:21-45.
2. The Lord Jesus was typified by many Old Testament characters such as Abel, Joseph, Moses, David, etc. So also will the Antichrist be: such characters as Cain, Pharaoh, Absolom, Saul, etc., foreshadow the Man of Sin. We shall devote a separate chapter to this most fascinating and totally neglected branch of our subject.
3. Christ was revealed only at God's appointed time: such will also be the case with the Antichrist. Of the one we read, "But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth His Son" (Gal. 4:4); of the other it is said, "And now we know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time" (2 Thess. 2:6).
4. Christ was a Man, a real Man, "the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5); so also will the Antichrist be - "that Man of Sin" (2 Thess. 2:3).
5. But Christ was more than a man; He was the God-Man; so also will the Antichrist be more than a man: the Super-man.
6. Christ was, according to the flesh, a Jew (Rom. 1:3); so also will the Antichrist be - for proofs see chapter three, section one.
7. Christ will make a covenant with Israel (Heb. 8:8); so also will the Antichrist (Dan. 9:27).
8. Christ is our "Great High Priest"; so Antichrist will yet be Israel's great high priest (Ezek. 21:26).
9. Christ was and will be the King of the Jews (Matt. 2:1); so also will the Antichrist be (Dan. 11:36).
10. Christ will be the King of kings (Rev. 17:14); so also will the Antichrist be (Rev. 17:12,13).
11. Christ wrought miracles: of Him it is said "approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs" (Acts 2:22); so also will the Antichrist, concerning whom it is written, "whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thess. 2:9).
12. Christ's public ministry was limited to three years and a half; so also will the Antichrist's final ministry be (Rev. 13:5).
13. Christ is shown to us riding a "white horse" (Rev. 19:11); so also is the Antichrist (Rev. 6:2).
14. Christ will return to the earth as Prince of Peace (Isa. 9:6,7); so also will the Antichrist introduce an era of peace (Dan. 11:21); it is to this that 1 Thess. 5:3 directly refers.
15. Christ is entitled "the Morning Star" (Rev. 22:16); so also is the Antichrist (Isa. 14:12).
16. Christ is referred to as Him "which was, and is, and is to come" (Rev. 4:8); the Antichrist is referred to as him that "was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 17:8).
17. Christ died and rose again; so also will the Antichrist (Rev. 13:3).
18. Christ will be the object of universal worship (Phil. 2:10); so also will the Antichrist (Rev. 13:4).
19. The followers of the Lamb will be sealed in their foreheads (Rev. 7:3; 14:1); so also will the followers of the Beast (Rev. 13:16,17).
20. Christ has been followed by the Holy Spirit who causes men to worship Him; so the Antichrist will be followed by the Anti-spirit - the False Prophet - who will cause men to worship the Beast (Rev. 13:12).
There is no need for us to make any comments on these striking correspondences: they speak for themselves. They show the incredible lengths to which God will permit Satan to go in mimicking the Lord Jesus. We turn now to consider:
Contrasts between Christ and the Antichrist.
I. In their respective Designations.
1. One is called the Christ (Matt. 16:16); the other the Antichrist (1 John 4:3).
2. One is called the Man of Sorrows (Isa. 53:3); the other the Man of Sin (2 Thess. 2:3).
3. One is called the Son of God (John 1:34); the other the Son of Perdition (2 Thess. 2:3).
4. One is called the Seed of woman (Gen. 3:15); the other the seed of the Serpent (Gen. 3:15).
5. One is called the Lamb (Isa. 53:7); the other the Beast (Rev. 11:7).
6. One is called the Holy One (Mark 1:24); the other the Wicked One (2 Thess. 2:8).
7. One is called the Truth (John 14:6); the other the Lie (John 8:44).
8. One is called the Prince of Peace (Isa. 9:6); the other the wicked, profane Prince (Ezek. 21:25).
9. One is called the glorious Branch (Isa. 4:2); the other the abominable Branch (Isa. 14:19).
10. One is called the Mighty Angel (Rev. 10:1); the other is called the Angel of the Bottomless Pit (Rev. 9:11).
11. One is called the Good Shepherd (John 10:11); the other is called the Idol Shepherd (Zech. 11:17).
12. One has for the number of His name (the gematria of "Jesus") 888; the other has for the number of his name 666 (Rev. 13:18).
II. In their respective Careers.
1. Christ came down from heaven (John 3:13); Antichrist comes up out of the bottomless pit (Rev. 11:7).
2. Christ came in Another's Name (John 5:43); Antichrist will come in his own name (John 5:43).
3. Christ came to do the Father's will (John 6:38); Antichrist will do his own will (Dan. 11:36).
4. Christ was energized by the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:14); Antichrist will be energized by Satan (Rev. 13:4).
5. Christ submitted Himself to God (John 5:30); Antichrist defies God (2 Thess. 2:4).
6. Christ humbled Himself (Phil. 2:8); Antichrist exalts himself (Dan. 11:37).
7. Christ honored the God of His fathers (Luke 4:16); Antichrist refuses to (Dan 11:37).
8. Christ cleansed the temple (John 2:14,16); the Antichrist defiles the temple (Matt. 24:15).
9. Christ ministered to the needy (Isa. 53:7); Antichrist robs the poor (Psa. 10:8,9).
10. Christ was rejected of men (Isa. 53:7); Antichrist will be accepted by men (Rev. 13:4).
11. Christ leadeth the flock (John 10:3); Antichrist leaveth the flock (Zech. 11:17).
12. Christ was slain for the people (John 11:51); Antichrist slays the people (Isa. 14:20).
13. Christ glorified God on earth (John 17:4), Antichrist blasphemes the name of God in heaven (Rev. 13:6).
14. Christ was received up into heaven (Luke 24:51); Antichrist goes down into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 19:20).
http://www.biblebelievers.com/Pink/antichrist07.htm
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 23, 2012, 11:34:46 PM
I for one was beginning to think that the "Book of Revelation" was changing to " Guessing Current Events" or "Religion & Political Satire." :doh:
I thank you as a more established member,
for your gentle direction. :flowerred:
I am laughing so hard I'm crying... there are just too many hilarious things to even comment on. Ahhhhahahahaha I love Tent.
The Antichrist will certainly have the characteristics described by the Bible [assuming you believe the Antichrist will be an indwelt man, which I do], yet, I have come to believe that these qualities have become somewhat overblown in the minds of men.
Having observed how easily men are fooled, how readily they fall for what would seem to be transparent lies, how eager they are to follow a pied piper, how willingly they suspend their disbelief and reliance on rational thought, I have concluded that the Antichrist will succeed not through his genius [Satan is no genius], but, rather, his understanding and exploitation of the gulliblity and weakness of men.
God, who no doubt is fed up with this errancy of men, helps the cause of Antichrist by giving those men over to a strong delusion, which was, after all, the desire of their hearts all along.
Quote from: lomarah on October 24, 2012, 02:59:29 AM
I am laughing so hard I'm crying... there are just too many hilarious things to even comment on. Ahhhhahahahaha I love Tent.
How about commenting on just one hilarious thing, because I haven't seen one.
How about that hilarious blushing flower smilie daj sent micah? :flowerred:
I know you take these things very seriously Molly and I certainly don't mean to offend. Simple minds laugh at simple things. :Peace2:
Quote from: lomarah on October 24, 2012, 03:18:45 AM
How about that hilarious blushing flower smilie daj sent micah? :flowerred:
I know you take these things very seriously Molly and I certainly don't mean to offend. Simple minds laugh at simple things. :Peace2:
Ok. Thanks. :flowerred:
Glenn Beck covers Benghazi. Why is this important to a prophecy thread? If, as some postulate, the beast government of Revelation will be a ten member muslim Caliphate, we seem to see it being constructed here by our own government, as 30 and 40 year and 70 year leaders sympathetic to America are threatened and/or replaced by the muslim brotherhood and other jihadist elements not sympathetic to America, but desiring a Caliphate. Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Mali, Yemen, and others have experienced this rise of the muslim brotherhood with our help, whether directly or indirectly, and Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and others are now threatened. This is not about democracy. This is about a multi country alliance under the most extreme elements of Islam, all of which surround Israel, being supplied with weapons and/or military support by us. Strange? Or prophecy coming to fulfillment in the most surprising of ways?
What was the Ambassador's role in Benghazi? Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CrVUYOooRQ&feature=youtu.be
What is the big picture in the Middle East? Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjL-HH9HeEs&feature=youtu.be
under attack and no help sent, unprecedented, media silence Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_9j-PhgvIk&feature=youtu.be
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 23, 2012, 11:34:46 PM
I for one was beginning to think that the "Book of Revelation" was changing to " Guessing Current Events" or "Religion & Political Satire." :doh:
The connection is that after the election it's revealed the whole campaign was "forked tongue galore" :winkgrin:
Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2012, 06:57:29 AM
.......... some postulate, the beast government of Revelation will be a ten member muslim Caliphate,
No, it will be a ten member Christian military organization specifically set up for the purpose of defending the Western world of Christendom from the terrorist policies of militant Islam. It will be a spin off of the present NATO alliances of nations, AND NOT some silly concept of a "Resurrected Roman Empire" of European nations.
The United States will be one of those ten nations, others will include such nations as Russia, England, France, Brazil, and others who meet an "endtime" criteria who allow the "clay" people" of Dan 6:42 to live in their midst. The "clay" in this verse is clearly defined within the pages of Holy writ, just go to Jer 18:6 or Is 64:8 & God's own inspired writ will tell you what he defines as Biblical "clay".
Biblical "clay" is the House of Israel as they are dispersed among the nations of Christendom today, they are the "clay" of the image mixed with the iron of the ten toes. You only need to look for the ten nations outside of Israel that have the ten largest Jewish populations & there you will discover the ten nations that constitute the ten toes of the image of Dan 6. The Muslim thing you keep trying to push is total guesswork on your part with no foundation of Biblical support....
Please try to keep things (IMO or my two cents or telling other people they are wrong) as a forum not a debate.
All unfilled prophecy is subject of opinion not fact. We know the prophecy will come true but no one can be certain of the who, what, where, when, or how.
...And none of the famous speakers and writers on the subject know either - they are selling books and CD's because prophecy is so interesting to many people.
Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2012, 03:02:01 AM
The Antichrist will certainly have the characteristics described by the Bible [assuming you believe the Antichrist will be an indwelt man, which I do], yet, I have come to believe that these qualities have become somewhat overblown in the minds of men.
Having observed how easily men are fooled, how readily they fall for what would seem to be transparent lies, how eager they are to follow a pied piper, how willingly they suspend their disbelief and reliance on rational thought, I have concluded that the Antichrist will succeed not through his genius [Satan is no genius], but, rather, his understanding and exploitation of the gulliblity and weakness of men.
God, who no doubt is fed up with this errancy of men, helps the cause of Antichrist by giving those men over to a strong delusion, which was, after all, the desire of their hearts all along.
"God, who no doubt is fed up with this errancy of men, helps the cause of Antichrist by giving those men over to a strong delusion, which was, after all, the desire of their hearts all along."
If or should the Lord be "fed up with the errancy of men...." He would have put an end to the errancy of men long ago. ALL, is His plan and purpose. Psa 94:3 LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph?
Paul here are your ten nations today. Obviously this could change over time.
1
Israel
5,703,700
2
United States
5,275,000
3
France
483,500
4
Canada
375,000
5
United Kingdom
292,000
6
Russia
205,000
7
Argentina
182,300
8
Germany
119,000
9
Brazil
107,300
10
Australia
97,300
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 24, 2012, 03:57:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2012, 03:02:01 AM
The Antichrist will certainly have the characteristics described by the Bible [assuming you believe the Antichrist will be an indwelt man, which I do], yet, I have come to believe that these qualities have become somewhat overblown in the minds of men.
Having observed how easily men are fooled, how readily they fall for what would seem to be transparent lies, how eager they are to follow a pied piper, how willingly they suspend their disbelief and reliance on rational thought, I have concluded that the Antichrist will succeed not through his genius [Satan is no genius], but, rather, his understanding and exploitation of the gulliblity and weakness of men.
God, who no doubt is fed up with this errancy of men, helps the cause of Antichrist by giving those men over to a strong delusion, which was, after all, the desire of their hearts all along.
"God, who no doubt is fed up with this errancy of men, helps the cause of Antichrist by giving those men over to a strong delusion, which was, after all, the desire of their hearts all along."
If or should the Lord be "fed up with the errancy of men...." He would have put an end to the errancy of men long ago. ALL, is His plan and purpose. Psa 94:3 LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph?
God tells us why, so I"ll just let him speak for himself.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because
they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And
for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned
who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.--2 Thess 2
Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2012, 04:02:21 PM
Whitewings, could you please remove that picture of the tongue or just put a link to it? It is disgusting. Thank you.
Paul here are your ten nations today. Obviously this could change over time.
1
Israel
5,703,700
2
United States
5,275,000
3
France
483,500
4
Canada
375,000
5
United Kingdom
292,000
6
Russia
205,000
7
Argentina
182,300
8
Germany
119,000
9
Brazil
107,300
10
Australia
97,300
At least you're on the right track for locating the "clay" people in the ten toes, but you overlooked an important part of my previous post, I stated "outside Israel", you included Israel on your list. Dropping the Jews living in Israel changes your list & you need to go back to a country by country census & revise it for the top ten Jewish populations.
The reason Israel should not be on the list is because it is not a Christian nation, it is a Jewish nation(the three southern tribes) & the criteria in the count are ten nations outside Israel where the House of Israel is found, this does not include Israel because it is the southern three tribes.
Quote from: PaulAt least you're on the right track for locating the "clay" people in the ten toes, but you overlooked an important part of my previous post, I stated "outside Israel", you included Israel on your list. Dropping the Jews living in Israel changes your list & you need to go back to a country by country census & revise it for the top ten Jewish populations.
The reason Israel should not be on the list is because it is not a Christian nation, it is a Jewish nation(the three southern tribes) & the criteria in the count are ten nations outside Israel where the House of Israel is found, this does not include Israel because it is the southern three tribes.
Ok, drop Israel and add Ukraine.
I didn't say I agreed with you, lol, but it's an interesting theory.
iSN'T IT INTERESTING THAT THE BIGGEST JEWISH POPULATION IS FOUND IN THE LARGEST CHRISTIAN COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD.
whoops sorry about the caps.
There are as many Jews in the US as there are in Israel.
So are you saying the Jews are the clay people? and the christians are the iron people? or vice versa?
its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. Dan 2
Quote from: Paul L on October 24, 2012, 04:28:55 PM
Whitewings, could you please remove that picture of the tongue or just put a link to it? It is disgusting. Thank you.
Seems someone did it for me.
I'm going to follow that picture :mfrown:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 24, 2012, 05:10:50 PM
Quote from: Paul L on October 24, 2012, 04:28:55 PM
Whitewings, could you please remove that picture of the tongue or just put a link to it? It is disgusting. Thank you.
Seems someone did it for me.
I'm going to follow that picture :mfrown:
Oh and here I thought you were being so sweet to me. :girlheart:
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 24, 2012, 05:54:42 PM
I'm sure he would of, I just removed it first.
To me, disgusting is even worse than offensive
Thank you. :HeartThrob:
I just didn't want to have to look at it in order to read the other posts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwSzPtaK03M&feature=related
Glen Beck using the same spirit it to prove his prophecy.
Proves that Joseph Smith was talking to Jesus.
That Jesus through Joseph Smith .Jesus said he was discussed
with so called Christians of USA. Jesus gave Joseph Smith
the authority to be the intermediate between God and his new chosen
tribe . Jesus gave Joseph Smith the power to write new scripture and
this scripture was to be read as having the same authority of any scripture found
in the Bible as it existed at that time.
Now as far as end times prophecy is concerned we are at a disadvantage.
we only have the Bible as revealed to us by the spirit of God.
Were as Glen Beck has the advantage of understanding the teachings of
Jesus and Joseph Smith.
This kind of makes the discussion with people on end time scenarios,
confusing . Molly you have us at a disadvantage.
Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
QuoteiSN'T IT INTERESTING THAT THE BIGGEST JEWISH POPULATION IS FOUND IN THE LARGEST CHRISTIAN COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD.
Also, isn't it interesting that there are "ten toes" of the image. The same number of tribes that compose the House of Israel. This is not an accident. But to be very clear, this is not to say the Christian nations that have the largest Jewish populations are also the populations of people who themselves compose the House of Israel, I am not suggesting this or anything close to it, this is not the case.
QuoteSo are you saying the Jews are the clay people? and the christians are the iron people? or vice versa?
No, I am saying that the Bible is stating that to be the case. All I did was look at Strong's Concordance, searched the word "clay" & came up with a list of all its' occurances & noted it was always in reference to the House of Israel, the northern ten tribes that were scattered into the nations of the western world at the time of the Assyrian captivity.
Quoteits legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. Dan 2
In the Bible, "iron" is the element of which most of the weapons of war are made, just look at the history of the use the Christian west has made of this element to wage war against it's internal as well as external foes.
We deconstructed the Buddhist Empire of Japan with our weapons of "iron", and we can presently do it at will wherever we exercise the backbone to do it, and we will do it on the Moslems as well, it's just a matter of time till we get fed up with their use of AKA 47's & RPG's (rocket propelled grenades). How many Islamic nations do you know of that have aircraft carriers? The United States, England, France & Russia probably have as many aircraft carriers as there are total numbers of Muslim nations on the planet.
Right Dajomaco,
The only prophecy to be discussed here in this forum is biblical prophecy.
Joseph Smith indeed made many prophecies.
More than one proved untrue.
The Bible says that even one prophecy shall fail, the person making the prophecy is not from God
and we are not to listen to him.
Also, isn't it interesting that there are "ten toes"
I would find 9 toes or 11 toes moer interesting.
we can presently do it at will wherever we exercise the backbone to do it, and we will do it on the Moslems as well, it's just a matter of time till we get fed up
Is there any possibility that you could get fed up with killing?
Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 24, 2012, 03:57:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2012, 03:02:01 AM
The Antichrist will certainly have the characteristics described by the Bible [assuming you believe the Antichrist will be an indwelt man, which I do], yet, I have come to believe that these qualities have become somewhat overblown in the minds of men.
Having observed how easily men are fooled, how readily they fall for what would seem to be transparent lies, how eager they are to follow a pied piper, how willingly they suspend their disbelief and reliance on rational thought, I have concluded that the Antichrist will succeed not through his genius [Satan is no genius], but, rather, his understanding and exploitation of the gulliblity and weakness of men.
God, who no doubt is fed up with this errancy of men, helps the cause of Antichrist by giving those men over to a strong delusion, which was, after all, the desire of their hearts all along.
"God, who no doubt is fed up with this errancy of men, helps the cause of Antichrist by giving those men over to a strong delusion, which was, after all, the desire of their hearts all along."
If or should the Lord be "fed up with the errancy of men...." He would have put an end to the errancy of men long ago. ALL, is His plan and purpose. Psa 94:3 LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph?
God tells us why, so I"ll just let him speak for himself.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
--2 Thess 2
I'm just wondering who is Paul talking about here?
Quote from: PaulNo, I am saying that the Bible is stating that to be the case. All I did was look at Strong's Concordance, searched the word "clay" & came up with a list of all its' occurances & noted it was always in reference to the House of Israel, the northern ten tribes that were scattered into the nations of the western world at the time of the Assyrian captivity.
So then the Jews would be iron? It says they don't 'mingle.' I guess that could mean that even though they are joined together, they don't lose their identity as separate?
41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. Dan 2
QuoteIn the Bible, "iron" is the element of which most of the weapons of war are made, just look at the history of the use the Christian west has made of this element to wage war against it's internal as well as external foes
So could we conclude that the warlike elements are coming from the Jews [or maybe on behalf of the Jews], not the [fragile, claylike] Christians? I'm just wondering where you are going with this.
Anyway, it's a fascinating theory.
Quote from: micahI'm just wondering who is Paul talking about here?
Since he says--
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth,
that they might be saved.I assume he is distinguishing between the elect and everyone else. He sounds like Jesus here--
they cannot turn to me and have me heal them."
Quote from: dajomaco on October 24, 2012, 06:32:22 PM
Is there any possibility that you could get fed up with killing?
Wouldn't it be nice if they would......but if we're to believe the book of Revelation, then I guess we're just going to have to believe "killing" will be with us for a long time to come.
Thank God for Jesus and his Love being shed abroad.
It is here today and will be with us for ever and ever and then some.
aLL MEN ARE 'ELECTED' FOR SALVATION..SO IT'S NOT MANKIND..BUT A SPIRIT THAT ATTACHES ITSELF
TO MAN.........AND DECEIVES,BLINDS HIM...
THINK ORIGINAL LIER/MANKILLER...fATHER OF THE lIE[NO TRUTH IN HIM]
Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2012, 06:45:54 PM
Quote from: PaulNo, I am saying that the Bible is stating that to be the case. All I did was look at Strong's Concordance, searched the word "clay" & came up with a list of all its' occurances & noted it was always in reference to the House of Israel, the northern ten tribes that were scattered into the nations of the western world at the time of the Assyrian captivity.
So then the Jews would be iron? It says they don't 'mingle.' I guess that could mean that even though they are joined together, they don't lose their identity as separate?
41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. Dan 2
QuoteIn the Bible, "iron" is the element of which most of the weapons of war are made, just look at the history of the use the Christian west has made of this element to wage war against it's internal as well as external foes
So could we conclude that the warlike elements are coming from the Jews [or maybe on behalf of the Jews], not the [fragile, claylike] Christians? I'm just wondering where you are going with this.
Anyway, it's a fascinating theory.
No, the Jews are not "iron", there are Jews & House of Israel living among Christians who maintain their distinct identity apart from the Christian population among whom they live. Judaism is very distinct from Christianity, but Judaism gave birth to Christianity, which is the reason Jews usually live in relative peace with that segment of the world's religious organizations. If you've noticed there are few Jews living in Moslem, Buddhist, or Hindu cultures; Jews are not permitted to live in those cultures.
Where I'm going with this is very simple to follow: using the Biblical explanation to interpret the symbology of the "clay", you can at the same time understand who the legs & feet of "iron" are. So wherever you find Jews living outside of Israel at the "end time", that is where you discover who the "ten toes" are. And what did you discover? You discovered the world's most powerful Navies (ships of Chittum) & armies did you not?
When you allow the Bible to explain its' own symbols, this disallows wiggle room semantics by those who would seek to insert their own opinions about the interpretation of any of the symbols in the Bible, especially when it comes to Bible prophecy. However, it has been my experience that this only makes the "wiggle room semanticists" very peeved at me to suggest only the Bible can be used to explain the Bible.
The second most basic key to understanding anything in Bible prophecy, is to not "interpret the interpretation". One of the most outstanding examples being the 7 ecclesias of the opening chapters of Revelation. The messenger to John clearly states in Rev 1:9-11 that these are endtime congregations located in specific cities, and what do all the wizards of smarts with books to sell do but twist the clearly stated words of Holy Writ, & falsely declare them to be 2000 years of Christian church history.
The lion is about to rise up. He has been misjudged by the enemy who thought he was a sheep to the slaughter. The enemy has threatened the lamb and he will hear the lion roar. He has sown the wind and he will reap the whirlwind. :dsunny:
Like a lion they crouch and lie down, like a lioness--who dares to rouse them? "May those who bless you be blessed and those who curse you be cursed!" Num 24:9
Numbers 23:24 The people rise like a lioness; they rouse themselves like a lion that does not rest till he devours his prey and drinks the blood of his victims."
Exodus 23:22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you.
Isaiah 31:4 This is what the LORD says to me: "As a lion growls, a great lion over his prey--and though a whole band of shepherds is called together against him, he is not frightened by their shouts or disturbed by their clamor--so the LORD Almighty will come down to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.
It came to pass after this also, that the children of Moab, and the children of Ammon, and with them other beside the Ammonites, came against Jehoshaphat to battle. Then there came some that told Jehoshaphat, saying, There cometh a great multitude against thee from beyond the sea on this side Syria; and, behold, they be in Hazazontamar, which is Engedi. And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah. And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD. And Jehoshaphat stood in the congregation of Judah and Jerusalem, in the house of the LORD, before the new court, And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee? Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever? And they dwelt therein, and have built thee a sanctuary therein for thy name, saying, If, when evil cometh upon us, as the sword, judgment, or pestilence, or famine, we stand before this house, and in thy presence, (for thy name is in this house,) and cry unto thee in our affliction, then thou wilt hear and help. And now, behold, the children of Ammon and Moab and mount Seir, whom thou wouldest not let Israel invade, when they came out of the land of Egypt, but they turned from them, and destroyed them not; Behold, I say, how they reward us, to come to cast us out of thy possession, which thou hast given us to inherit. O our God, wilt thou not judge them? for we have no might against this great company that cometh against us; neither know we what to do: but our eyes are upon thee. And all Judah stood before the LORD, with their little ones, their wives, and their children. Then upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph, came the Spirit of the LORD in the midst of the congregation; And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the LORD unto you, Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God's. To morrow go ye down against them: behold, they come up by the cliff of Ziz; and ye shall find them at the end of the brook, before the wilderness of Jeruel. Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you. And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD. And the Levites, of the children of the Kohathites, and of the children of the Korhites, stood up to praise the LORD God of Israel with a loud voice on high. And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper. And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the LORD, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the LORD; for his mercy endureth for ever. And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten. For the children of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of mount Seir, utterly to slay and destroy them: and when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, every one helped to destroy another. And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped. And when Jehoshaphat and his people came to take away the spoil of them, they found among them in abundance both riches with the dead bodies, and precious jewels, which they stripped off for themselves, more than they could carry away: and they were three days in gathering of the spoil, it was so much. And on the fourth day they assembled themselves in the valley of Berachah; for there they blessed the LORD: therefore the name of the same place was called, The valley of Berachah, unto this day. Then they returned, every man of Judah and Jerusalem, and Jehoshaphat in the forefront of them, to go again to Jerusalem with joy; for the LORD had made them to rejoice over their enemies. And they came to Jerusalem with psalteries and harps and trumpets unto the house of the LORD. And the fear of God was on all the kingdoms of those countries, when they had heard that the LORD fought against the enemies of Israel. So the realm of Jehoshaphat was quiet: for his God gave him rest round about.
(2Ch 20:1-30)
We are watching supernatural forces in an epic battle. Enjoy!
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
SEE.....Father and Christ cast first stone.....
and if a beast should touch the mountain...he shall be stoned
Nebuchaddnezzers image...7 times pass over it...given mind of beast
for,whoever wants to save his life will lose it,but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
what good is it for a man to gain the whole world...and yet lose or forfeit his soul.
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words...the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He
comes in his glory and in the glory of His Father and of the holy angels
he was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast who was wounded by the sword
and lived[Jesus crushed the serpents head/Babylon...wetted with the dew of heaven until
he came into his right mind....his son took golden temple vessels of the Lord and drank from them...
Isaaih 9;13 but the people have not returned to Him whom struck them[wounded by sword]..so
the Lord will cut off from Isreal both head and tail..the elders and prominent men are the head...
the prophets who teach lies are the tail[feet/toes] those who guide this people mislead them.
mene mene tekel and parsen...wisdom required[from above] 666 calculated number of the beast..
the Lamb and 144,000 standing on Mt Zion...................he will pitch his royal tents between the seas
at the Beautiful Holy Mountain. Yet he will come to his end[tail] and no-one will help him.
as this king of Babylon has trampled and scattered those who belong to God to the four ends of
heaven and earth[Rev 7;1 I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth..RESTRAINING
[til he who restrains is taken out of the way] THE FOUR WINDS OF THE EARTH[wind gives breath to four beasts
Babylons image] til 144,000 sealed
God of heaven sets up KINGDOM...... it will crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end...
this is the meaning of the vision of the rock[revealation of God/Christ] cut out of a mountain,but
not by human hands- A ROCK THAT BROKE THE IRON<THE BRONZE THE CLAY THE SILVER
AND GOLD TO PIECES.........
THE DREAM IS TRUE AND THE INTERPRETATION IS TRUSTWORTHY
...so,too...this image shall be scatterd
Wow!!! Awesome!
Losing our Sons--a full length documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jJkxAtIdBY&feature=youtu.be
The road that led an American Islam jihadist to killing an American serviceman.
A searing true story from America's heartland, Losing Our Sons tells of two American families whose lives intersected through a shattering act of violence. Melvin Bledsoe, a small business owner in Memphis, watched with pride as his son Carlos went to Tennessee State University in Nashville to better his life through education. Daris Long, an ex-Marine, felt honored that his son, Andy, chose to follow in his footsteps by joining the military. But when Carlos Bledsoe murdered Andy Long in Little Rock, Arkansas, both fathers are forced to confront a new kind of American nightmare. As Melvin traced the trail that led Carlos from Nashville to Yemen and then to Little Rock, Daris confronted an American government that seems to be in denial about what happened to his son. This powerful documentary provides a moment of clarity for Americans who care about their families and their country's future.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
--Rev 12
Anyone who is wondering where that slogan, "FORWARD," comes from should be aware that it is a Communist slogan, used by the People's Republic of China, for their revolution in the last century, --you remember the one where they cut off the hands of talented musicians because we all must be equal. It seems we might be going forward again, which is what happens to people who don't know history, they go backwards.
Sometimes to know prophecy, you need to just look at history.
And, to know that Satan always says the opposite of what he means.
Great Leap Forward
The Great Leap Forward (simplified Chinese: 大跃进; traditional Chinese: 大躍進; pinyin: Dà yuè jìn) of the People's Republic of China (PRC) was an economic and social campaign of the Communist Party of China (CPC), reflected in planning decisions from 1958 to 1961, which aimed to use China's vast population to rapidly transform the country from an agrarian economy into a modern communist society through the process of rapid industrialization and collectivization. Mao Zedong led the campaign based on the Theory of Productive Forces, and intensified it after being informed of the impending disaster from grain shortages.
Chief changes in the lives of rural Chinese included the introduction of a mandatory process of agricultural collectivization, which was introduced incrementally. Private farming was prohibited, and those engaged in it were labeled as counter revolutionaries and persecuted. Restrictions on rural people were enforced through public struggle sessions, and social pressure, although people also experienced forced labor.[1] Rural industrialization, officially a priority of the campaign, saw "its development ... aborted by the mistakes of the Great Leap Forward."[2]
The Great Leap ended in catastrophe, resulting in tens of millions of excess deaths.[3] Estimates of the death toll range from 18 million[4] to 45 million,[5] with estimates by demographic specialists ranging from 18 million to 32.5 million.[4] Historian Frank Dikötter asserts that "coercion, terror, and systematic violence were the very foundation of the Great Leap Forward" and it "motivated one of the most deadly mass killings of human history."[6]
The years of the Great Leap Forward in fact saw economic regression, with 1958 through 1961 being the only years between 1953 and 1983 in which China's economy saw negative growth. Political economist Dwight Perkins argues, "enormous amounts of investment produced only modest increases in production or none at all. ... In short, the Great Leap was a very expensive disaster."[7]
In subsequent conferences in 1960 and 1962, the negative effects of the Great Leap Forward were studied by the CPC, and Mao was criticized in the party conferences. Moderate Party members like Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping rose to power, and Mao was marginalized within the party, leading him to initiate the Cultural Revolution in 1966.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Consequences
Secret Tsunami on Staten Island
A 20 to 24 foot high wall of water hit the island
The media is not reporting it
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/superstorm-sandy-puts-staten-island-underwater-17614036
Secret meeting with Billy Graham and Mitt Romney
Billy Graham declares Mormonism is no longer a cult and takes all
reverences to it being a cult off of his website.
I can't help but think this has a lot to do with Franklin Graham.
In the past Billy Graham Evangelical Association has never endorsed a candidate.
Now with Franklin at the helm.....
Just days before the U.S. presidential election, evangelist Franklin Graham, son of the Rev. Billy Graham, has suggested that "this could be America's last call" before the return of Christ, and has asked voters to pray for guidance.
He says to vote for Christian values and morality
IMO when Franklin was sensing that this would be the last election
before Christ's return.
What he was really sensing was the demise of B.G.E.A.
Years and years of the Fathers work thrown away by the son for political
aspirations. :pitiful:Sad
The Evangelicals are the secret weapon who didn't vote in 2008 and we ended up with 'fundamental transformation' and the Communist slogan, 'Forward.' This time they are coming out in the hundreds of thousands to vote, God willing.
If Christians are to have a cult of personality, it is only in the face of Jesus Christ.
For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
--2 Cor 3:17
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2012, 05:15:02 PM
Secret Tsunami on Staten Island
A 20 to 24 foot high wall of water hit the island
The media is not reporting it
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/superstorm-sandy-puts-staten-island-underwater-17614036
Most people don't realize that the population of Staten Island is 100,000(490,000) greater than that of New Orleans(380,000)
Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2012, 07:15:38 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2012, 05:15:02 PM
Secret Tsunami on Staten Island
A 20 to 24 foot high wall of water hit the island
The media is not reporting it
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/superstorm-sandy-puts-staten-island-underwater-17614036
Most people don't realize that the population of Staten Island is 100,000(490,000) greater than that of New Orleans(380,000)
Who ever heard of a Tsunami on the east coast? They name the storm 'Frankenstorm' after Frankenstein, I guess, a
man made monster. Then they make sure hundreds of thousands of people do not get any help as an aftermath.
How hard is it to figure out the logistics of getting help to people? Isn't the first thing you do stockpile supplies near to where the storm is happening? Instead, Fema is ordering water midweek to be delivered today. No gas. How hard is it to find 1000 generators and deliver them to all the gas stations? The problem is power, not lack of gas. Instead they fly in thousands of gallons from the strategic oil reserves to give out for free? Are you kidding me? If it's there yet, no one seems to be finding it. The lines are still 3 miles long with 7 hour waits. Some people have not seen one helper from anywhere yet. It's getting cold, but they turn away electric crews who have driven from Alabama and Texas to help because they are not union? What? Bloomberg wants to have a race? Let's make him run 25 miles in his underwear and only offer him drinks under 32 ounces along the way. That would cheer people up.
Now a nor'easter is coming and a million people still do not have power or heat.
It's not being reported. Do you have a way of getting there and report back to us?
As someone said, This is Armageddon.
*rant over*
(Psalm 3) O LORD, how many are my foes! Many are rising against me; 2 many are saying to me, "There is no help for you in God." Selah 3 But you, O LORD, are a shield around me, my glory, and the one who lifts up my head. 4 I cry aloud to the LORD, and he answers me from his holy hill. Selah 5 I lie down and sleep; I wake again, for the LORD sustains me. 6 I am not afraid of ten thousands of people who have set themselves against me all around. 7 Rise up, O LORD! Deliver me, O my God! For you strike all my enemies on the cheek; you break the teeth of the wicked. 8 Deliverance belongs to the LORD; may your blessing be on your people! Selah
Molly, we complain, But, if I were Satan, this is exactly the kind of world I want and would take delight in stopping others from expressing any kind of love.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 05, 2012, 02:32:36 PM
Molly, we complain, But, if I were Satan, this is exactly the kind of world I want and would take delight in stopping others from expressing any kind of love.
Yes. which is exactly why we must rise up and resist him, because he will flee when resisted by God's people.
I've seen it over and over again.
Over 100,000 homes and businesses were destroyed or seriously damaged on Long Island alone. The population of Long Island is somewhere around 7.5 million.
The area this disaster encompassed on the east coast affected a population of at least 25-30 million people.
Iconic sites going back 50-100 years no longer exist.
Some people will not be able to rebuild for over a year because the entire infrastructure is gone, water,sewer, power, roads- all gone or severely damaged.
As someone said, This is Armageddon.
*rant over
How long does Armageddon Last?
32 David said to Saul, "Let no one lose heart on account of this Philistine; your servant will go and fight him."
33 Saul replied, "You are not able to go out against this Philistine and fight him; you are only a young man, and he has been a warrior from his youth."
34 But David said to Saul, "Your servant has been keeping his father's sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, 35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it. 36 Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God. 37 The Lord who rescued me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine."
Saul said to David, "Go, and the Lord be with you."
--1 Sam 17
Armageddon
Ever since the word Armageddon has been.
Some kook will decalre that it has begun(armageddon)
as soon as something happens in his nieghborhood.
Interesting(to me at least) side note:
When I had been a christian for about 3 months, I found a book on the end times (my first one) in a used bookstore.
I was awed and amazed at how clearly the author had laid out prophecy and how armageddon was coming and no more was left to be done to fulfil all the Bible prophecies. The more I read, the more excited and convinced I became that I would be raptured any moment and the world as I knew it would be at end. Then the thought occurred to me, "this book proves any minute and yet, it looks kind of old. Let me check when this was published." I looked, and the publication date was 1888!!!
That was 43 years ago, a ton of end times books since and I admit, it has made me skeptical of anyone that says they have the slightest idea when it will happen.
I think he wants us always in that state of readiness.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
--Luke 21:36
:thumbsup: Not only ready for his return, but ready should we die.
Could anything be sweeter than to die and have the Lord say, "Well done, you are a good and faithful servant."
THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but "to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER," and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God.
Thomas Paine, 1776
Yea Molly! :thumbsup: :iagree:
Good timely post :gimmefive:
Quote from: Molly on November 07, 2012, 06:55:45 PM
THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but "to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER," and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God.
Thomas Paine, 1776
Tyranny oppressive power over the mind of man
the tyranny of a police state
the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant
Tyrant - an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution
Tyranny is like hell in the sense that neither actually exists
in reality .
Tyranny, like hell are words used by north American evangelicals
to control through fear.
They will show you how to avoid going to hell,
and they also offer weapons and the chance to fight against tyranny.
The whole them and us spirit.
The Holy Spirit abhors this them and us spirit.
The Holy Spirit rejects the idea that to truly motivate men you have to use fear.
I think if one looked, one could find thousands of examples of tyranny. Though to some degree they may have used parts of it, IMO, North American Evangelicals has practically nothing to do with that at its basest level. It's existed for thousands of years.
I also believe the scriptures are very clear. There is saved/unsaved. There are friends of God and enemies of God. There are those of faith, and those not of the faith. I see this whole "us/them" argument used by so many as a distracting red herring from those scriptural statements. YET, that's no excuse for hate. We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Hard saying, but it's part of the kingdom.
Blessings.
a few 'scriptural' examples...Psalms 119;134 Redeem me from the oppression of men...
v 150 those who devise wicked schemes are near..but they are far from your law
v 161 rulers persecute me without cause
I am a man of peace..but when they speak they are for war
Hebrews 2;15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2012, 12:55:26 AM
I think if one looked, one could find thousands of examples of tyranny. Though to some degree they may have used parts of it, IMO, North American Evangelicals has practically nothing to do with that at its basest level. It's existed for thousands of years.
I also believe the scriptures are very clear. There is saved/unsaved. There are friends of God and enemies of God. There are those of faith, and those not of the faith. I see this whole "us/them" argument used by so many as a distracting red herring from those scriptural statements. YET, that's no excuse for hate. We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Hard saying, but it's part of the kingdom.
Blessings.
Thank you... for thoughts to consider as I meditate on
Eph 5:15-16
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise.
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Col 4:5-6
5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how ye ought to answer every man.
1 Pet 3:15
15 sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2012, 12:55:26 AM
I think if one looked, one could find thousands of examples of tyranny. Though to some degree they may have used parts of it, IMO, North American Evangelicals has practically nothing to do with that at its basest level. It's existed for thousands of years.
I also believe the scriptures are very clear. There is saved/unsaved. There are friends of God and enemies of God. There are those of faith, and those not of the faith. I see this whole "us/them" argument used by so many as a distracting red herring from those scriptural statements. YET, that's no excuse for hate. We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Hard saying, but it's part of the kingdom.
Blessings.
Yes the saved and the unsaved
Me unsaved before I entered into the knowlegde that Jesus had saved me from the fountations
of the earth.
Yes There are friends of God and enemies of God.
Me an enemey of God. I was an enemy of God He made me his enemy before I even new he was God . It wasn't untill I knew I was his enemy,that I found out I was his friend he made me his friend.
Yes There are those of faith, and those not of the faith
Me without faith until God gave me faith.
Them/Us are one .They are you .
It not because your herring is red.
It's not hearing what you read.
Our Lord God is the responsible One for what is set in motion, He knows what is for our better and our learning. All is well, even If I may feel dismayed of the circumstances. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: dajomaco on November 08, 2012, 02:34:30 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2012, 12:55:26 AM
I think if one looked, one could find thousands of examples of tyranny. Though to some degree they may have used parts of it, IMO, North American Evangelicals has practically nothing to do with that at its basest level. It's existed for thousands of years.
I also believe the scriptures are very clear. There is saved/unsaved. There are friends of God and enemies of God. There are those of faith, and those not of the faith. I see this whole "us/them" argument used by so many as a distracting red herring from those scriptural statements. YET, that's no excuse for hate. We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Hard saying, but it's part of the kingdom.
Blessings.
Yes the saved and the unsaved
Me unsaved before I entered into the knowlegde that Jesus had saved me from the fountations
of the earth.
Yes There are friends of God and enemies of God.
Me an enemey of God. I was an enemy of God He made me his enemy before I even new he was God . It wasn't untill I knew I was his enemy,that I found out I was his friend he made me his friend.
Yes There are those of faith, and those not of the faith
Me without faith until God gave me faith.
Them/Us are one .They are you .
It not because your herring is red.
It's not hearing what you read.
I guess you think your insult is clever. Now why don't you take another shot at it, and this time try for accuracy.
Also, I've got a question for you. Did you just one day decide you were "saved", or was there more to it than that?
If so, what? From some of the things you've been saying lately, I'm curious.
Also, as far as your above post; disagreeing with you is not the same thing as not "hearing". By the grace of God, I am not "one" with the world. If you are, I'd suggest that's something to reconsider. "...such WERE some of you.."
Do you read the scriptures?
Blessings.
Hi James and Daj,
Hope I am not being presumptuous to chip in here :o)
I prefer saved and "not yet saved".
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
(Col 1:19-23)
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
(1Co 15:1-2)
Those are two really big IFS. I sure didnt put them there. "All scripture is God-breathed......Holy men moved of God, etc."
For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
(1Pe 4:17-19)
Are we saved with difficulty? How is this? On the one hand we are told we are saved by grace, entering rest, yet on the other hand we are told we are saved with difficulty. Paradoxical paradigms again HAHAHA!
We have to look at the word saved as carefully as we have looked at the word "aionios". It means "healed, delivered, made whole".
The enemies of God have not yet been healed, delivered, made whole. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do". And they are made up as much or more of religious people, as what we call sinners. "The harlots and the publicans will enter in before you".
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, it is for those who are "born not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh but are begotten of God" and we have His spirit whereby we cry ABBA FATHER! ( A term of childlike familiarity like, "Daddy!" or "Poppa"). You were born not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, the LIVING AND ABIDING word of God.
We ALL once walked among "them", the "not yet made whole", as enemies, because the carnal mind is enmity towards God, and "cannot please God"(1 Cor 2,3).
Once we are delivered, healed, made whole we are pleasing, acceptable sacrifices because of His blood shed for us and our faith in HIM- IF.
"If you continue in my word(abide, dwell in, walk in) you will kno the truth and the truth shall MAKE YOU FREE- healed, delivered, made whole."- This is the GLORIOUS FREEDOM of the children of God. THIS IS SALVATION.
Act 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"
Perverse is "SKOLIOS", from which we get "scoliosis"- warped spine. This WARPED generation. Repent(change your mind). Make straight paths for your feet. Prepare the way of the Lord.
Saved equals free, healed, made whole, delivered. Not all are yet. We who are can become a part of their experience of the grace of God IF we continue in the word. IF we walk after the Spirit. IF we continue in the faith grounded and settled. This is the inheritance of the children of God.
IF NOT, we may eventually fall back under the dominion of the flesh. We are no longer healed, delivered, made whole. We come again into kolassis(1 Cor 3:15), BUT EVEN SO, we will be "saved/healed/delivered" -altho "as through fire" and we will "lose our reward"(inheritance).
Even should we fall so far back into "enemy behavior" that we are "delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh"- it will be sfor the purpose that our spirit will be "saved-healed, delivered, made whole, set free" in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5)
In that day every adversary will be subjected, "as through fire", until every knee bows and every tongue confesses, until evryone in heaven and earth are gathered into one in Christ and Jesus delivers the kingdom over to the Father so that God may be ALL IN ALL- ALL saved-healed, delivered, made whole, set free....
The entire creation set free from futility- all authority, rule and power done away because all are in love and love needs no authority.
Only so long as there is one who is not "healed, delivered, made whole, set free" by the love of God will authority continue.
"And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. "Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' "And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. "It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.' "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."
(Act 3:17-26)
Therefore we see the progressive nature of salvation, being as it is, THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITHIN. Sown in the earth as a seed(Jesus the Logos), incorruptible and eternal, first to the Jews(where the word was first sown and the covenant first sealed) then on into the Gentiles through the seed of Abraham, the father of faith. Then the ecclesia "in the ages to come" setting the whole creation free into the "glorious freedom" that is restoration, salvation, for all. :2c:
Hi John. I agree with a sort of progressive nature of salvation. But I believe it begins with the spiritual new birth, being drawn and given faith to believe unto salvation, which is trusting Jesus as our Savior. Then progressively we grow in grace and knowledge, are brought into maturity from there. But the spirit is saved, born from above, by the free gift (which I believe, can't be lost) at the moment of "salvation"/spiritual new birth when given the faith to believe. "He who has begun a good work, complete it"..."keep that which I've committed..that day"..."Jesus, Author and Finisher (Beginner and Completer)"..."grace through faith, free gift, not of works.."
However, other parts of us can be lost - or preferably, surrendered in obedience in this lifetime. Without that new birth, IMO and I believe the scriptures teach, we have not reconciled to God, are destined for destruction [of the flesh/carnal nature] in the Lake of Fire, in what brings those as yet unsaved to kneel and confess Jesus as Lord. Until that happens, IMO, we're just whistlin' Dixie. :Whistle:
:gimmefive:
I agree with most of that, I just avoid defining it religiously, rather than by the scriptures alone. Fundamentalism, evangelicalism and pentecostalism have instituted some very narrowly defined parameters for the word "saved". Many of them do not align with the scriptures, and of course they can't because they don't understand "salvation" or the nature of it beyond the barest elemental perception.
The scriptures are the only words that speak to me.
Otherwise, What do we do with Paul's IFs :o)
If I speak of losing salvation, I am only speaking of DISCONTINUING of our own volition to walk in the healing and deliverance that salvation IS- and I don't mean that so much as stumbling or having failure, or even sin in our lives(unless it is a sin unto death).
I just don't think the scriptures teach salvation as an EVENT. I think the scriptures teach salvation as a STATE OF BEING. It is given freely by God as a gift, yet we must abide in it to experience the benefits of it. One must continue in the STATE OF BEING which of course, is fellowship with God in Christ, in order to experience the effect of that state of being, which is healing, wholeness, freedom, wisdom, love, etc.- all issues of the heart- only God knows.
In other words, to me salvation IS the healing, not the knowledge of it, and it is progressive- and as the olive branches that were cut off discovered, this life can be lost- altho they can be grafted in again at any time they wish to be so. Some were cut off because they MADE RELIGION OF IT. Some were cut off because they forgot God and engaed in the wickedness of the nations among whom they were pilgrims. Paul says in Romans we also, who have been grafted in, can be cut-off for arrogance.
What does this mean?
Whatever differences of understanding someone may have about that and how it happens intellectually, if their spirit is in union with God they will receive the benefits of it.
Whatever differences of understanding someone may have about that and how it happens intellectually, if their spirit is not in union with God they will not experience the benefits of it- regardless of what they kno. :2c: again :Peace2:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:07:05 AM
I just don't think the scriptures teach salvation as an EVENT.
Much of the rest I could see reasons for discussing it further, examining, perseverance of the saints (which I believe) vs. working to maintain one's salvation (which I don't believe). I don't think how any one group defines it, whether their belief includes hell, or not; but as for the quoted, I probably couldn't disagree more.
You don't believe someone is lost, then the Holy Spirit visits each person and calls them into belief and God gives the faith to trust and call on Jesus? I believe that's taught in numerous scriptures- and that's the spiritual new birth. In scripture it's called "being born from above".
:Peace2: to you too
P.S. IMO, the "barest elemental perception" is what's required to be saved. Believe, trust, come as a little child, etc.. Only initiated and empowered by the Holy Spirit.
And I believe saved is a perfectly good, scriptural word..that means being brought by the Holy Spirit into saving faith in Jesus and His work on the cross. I believe that's a miracle, not some ascending road. The road is obedience, growth, overcoming...not being spiritually reborn or "saved".
Perhaps I ought to have said, I do not believe salvation is MERELY an event. I had a powerful experience when I met Jesus. I was saved(healed, delivered, made whole) through a sovereign revelation of Jesus Christ that was made direct to my entire being without words from man or prayer on my part. I would say it was no less powerful than Paul's conversion experience.
Yet I have known people who could not remember, or point to a particular time or moment when they were, quote /unquote saved, but the TESTIMONY of HIS LIFE was there and I could clearly see it, and their works confirmed it as did their love for Him.
Reducing salvation to an event is the worst thing that ever happened to the gospel- it is a RESTORED LIFE, a REVOLUTIONIZED BEING, a PROFOUND EXCHANGE OF LIFE that bears witness to it, not the four spiritual laws or a prayer before some man in some building somewhere.
What I am saying is that salvation firstly and overwhelmingly IS AN EXPERIENCE OF ENTERING AND ABIDING IN A STATE OF BEING- NEWNESS OF LIFE. The STATE OF BEING DEFINES IT. Not the event or the method. I know many who think they had the event but I have never seen in them the STATE OF BEING- and Jesus bears witness to such as these Himself..........
Didnt we prophesy? Didnt we do many mighty works? Depart from me you lawless ones, I NEVER KNEW YOU. This has been perverted by evangelicals and fundamentalists to mean- "You never really got saved".
I disagree. They did these works in His name. They called Him Lord. They did not continue IN FELLOWSHIP with Him in His love. Their works testified to their STATE OF BEING that they did not understand salvation or what they were saved from. They never realized what they were leaving behind or what they were trying to find. This is the deadly leaven of religion.
I definitely believe in rebirth, I quoted all those scriptures in my post above. We can say, "This is salvation" as we look at a seed in out hand. We can say, "This is salvation as we plant that seed in the ground". If we do not water the seed or allow it sun and rain, our salvation will remain as a seed unseen beneath the ground.
I want us to see the tree, fully raised from the soil and bearing fruit for the healing of the nations and say, "This is salvation!"- without someone grabbing my hand and digging up that seed that is buried in the ground and saying, "NO- THIS IS SALVATION". I am not negating the seed.
P.S. If you think I am saying that salvation is a gradual ascension experience that does not require knowing Jesus Christ you are not reading my posts very thoroughly :o) It is all about knowing Jesus.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
Perhaps I ought to have said, I do not believe salvation is MERELY an event.
I see
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
Reducing salvation to an event is the worst thing that ever happened to the gospel-a prayer before some man in some building somewhere.
It doesn't have to be that, but I believe it can be. Many meet Jesus as our Savior in mainstream Christianity. He's not confined to the walls, but neither is He necessarily always absent.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
Didnt we prophesy? Didnt we do many mighty works? Depart from me you lawless ones, I NEVER KNEW YOU. This has been perverted by evangelicals and fundamentalists to mean- "You never really got saved".
I disagree. They did these works in His name. They called Him Lord. They did not continue IN FELLOWSHIP with Him in His love.
But notice the bolded and underlined. Just doing something and claiming it as a holy or religious activity, or even having a head knowledge/belief does not save/give the new birth. The devils believe and tremble. The demon possessed man followed the disciples mouthing a confession
about Jesus. But he didn't know Him. He had not as yet been visited by the Holy Spirit and given faith to believe on Jesus as His Savior. That's a miraculous event (as you experienced), brought by the grace of God. "Each in his own order." But again, that's probably a "secondary" doctrine as far as I'm concerned. Good people have disagreed about that for centuries - i.e., working to maintain salvation vs. it being sealed and guarded by the Holy Spirit. I personally believe Paul was addressing that when he talked about beginning by grace and then trying to maintain it by works. I don't think that one's going to be 100% agreed upon this side of the veil. :surrender:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
I definitely believe in rebirth
Then IMO, that's the main thing,
especially the starting point - and that we ALL experience it in God's timing and according to His will.
:dsunny:
jabcat/eaglesway posts
http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/saved/msg127787/#msg127787
http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/saved/msg127788/#msg127788
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if indeed I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
--Phil 3:12
I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me.
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Rev 19:10
great scrip Molly. Of course :laugh: I read it from my perspective - He captures us, then pushes us forward. We "run a race" and are expected to be faithful. Howevah..."I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Rm. 9:15,16
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2012, 08:20:26 AM
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Rev 19:10
John mentioned splitting this off. Any time you want (right now!? :rolllol:) and have something, bring us back on topic.
I did have some fella :wink3: send me this tonight;
"Peace brother, Jesus is Lord. Mitt Romney and Barack Obama are just the faces of two machines fighting to dominate our culture. Jesus is our only hope and maybe now we will all see it and get serious about praying for Him to awaken and empower us." :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2012, 08:03:59 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
Perhaps I ought to have said, I do not believe salvation is MERELY an event.
I see
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
Reducing salvation to an event is the worst thing that ever happened to the gospel-a prayer before some man in some building somewhere.
It doesn't have to be that, but I believe it can be. Many meet Jesus as our Savior in mainstream Christianity. He's not confined to the walls, but neither is He necessarily always absent.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
Didnt we prophesy? Didnt we do many mighty works? Depart from me you lawless ones, I NEVER KNEW YOU. This has been perverted by evangelicals and fundamentalists to mean- "You never really got saved".
I disagree. They did these works in His name. They called Him Lord. They did not continue IN FELLOWSHIP with Him in His love.
But notice the bolded and underlined. Just doing something and claiming it as a holy or religious activity, or even having a head knowledge/belief does not save/give the new birth. The devils believe and tremble. The demon possessed man followed the disciples mouthing a confession about Jesus. But he didn't know Him. He had not as yet been visited by the Holy Spirit and given faith to believe on Jesus as His Savior. That's a miraculous event (as you experienced), brought by the grace of God. "Each in his own order." But again, that's probably a "secondary" doctrine as far as I'm concerned. Good people have disagreed about that for centuries - i.e., working to maintain salvation vs. it being sealed and guarded by the Holy Spirit. I personally believe Paul was addressing that when he talked about beginning by grace and then trying to maintain it by works. I don't think that one's going to be 100% agreed upon this side of the veil. :surrender:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
I definitely believe in rebirth
Then IMO, that's the main thing, especially the starting point - and that we ALL experience it in God's timing and according to His will.
:dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2012, 08:03:59 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
Perhaps I ought to have said, I do not believe salvation is MERELY an event.
I see
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
Reducing salvation to an event is the worst thing that ever happened to the gospel-a prayer before some man in some building somewhere.
It doesn't have to be that, but I believe it can be. Many meet Jesus as our Savior in mainstream Christianity. He's not confined to the walls, but neither is He necessarily always absent.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
Didnt we prophesy? Didnt we do many mighty works? Depart from me you lawless ones, I NEVER KNEW YOU. This has been perverted by evangelicals and fundamentalists to mean- "You never really got saved".
I disagree. They did these works in His name. They called Him Lord. They did not continue IN FELLOWSHIP with Him in His love.
But notice the bolded and underlined. Just doing something and claiming it as a holy or religious activity, or even having a head knowledge/belief does not save/give the new birth. The devils believe and tremble. The demon possessed man followed the disciples mouthing a confession about Jesus. But he didn't know Him. He had not as yet been visited by the Holy Spirit and given faith to believe on Jesus as His Savior. That's a miraculous event (as you experienced), brought by the grace of God. "Each in his own order." But again, that's probably a "secondary" doctrine as far as I'm concerned. Good people have disagreed about that for centuries - i.e., working to maintain salvation vs. it being sealed and guarded by the Holy Spirit. I personally believe Paul was addressing that when he talked about beginning by grace and then trying to maintain it by works. I don't think that one's going to be 100% agreed upon this side of the veil. :surrender:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
I definitely believe in rebirth
Then IMO, that's the main thing, especially the starting point - and that we ALL experience it in God's timing and according to His will.
:dsunny:
Sure, it can be that, but where was it like that in the scriptures? In the scriptures, they proclaimed the gospel, believers followed, were baptized in water, then they were filled with the Holy Spirit according to the promise and became a part of a vibrant community of new creatures.
Not much of what we see today in churches looks even remotely like what we read in the scriptures, yet, we say we stand upon the word- but really we have just converted it all to religion(IMO).
We take a word, like "saved", we basicaly gut it of its ongoing daily reality and make it primarily a past tense event and comfort ourselves with it(not saying u r doing that James)- when all the while the scriptures have it in present AND future tense and all sorts of additional facets to it expressed in a variety of ways- which get ignored or even denied.
I take note your focus on the words NEVER KNEW YOU, but in any case THEY DID ALL THESE THINGS THINKING THEY HAD THE EXPERIENCED THE "BLESSED EVENT". My main point is that they CLEARLY THOUGHT THEY KNEW HIM. They probably defined themselves as "saved" because of something they did in a church somewhere. But their works declared that they did not know the Lord..... Jesus defined their spirituality
by their works in this place, as He had done also in the parable of the Good Samaritan- NOT because we are saved by works, but because true salvation produces certain works.
Works do not INITIATE or MAINTAIN our faith, they testify that it is REAL.
Love is the only thing that maintains our faith, and it is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost who is given us(Rom 5:5)
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind.....and love your neighbor as yourself.
Who is your neighbor?
I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me.......Depart from me you lawless ones, into the fire...... etc.
To me this is about wood hay and stubble, gold silver and precious stones, and not so much about the theology of whether not they were "saved". IMO it has to be because we know NO ONE GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE- it is for consuming the darkness and bringing the heart of man to the throne of Messiah so that he can see the love of God(standing before him as a Lamb slain) and repent, be converted, bow the knee, become a new creation, etc.
Pretty much the same page - with this addition. I do know and see many people who love the Lord, are growing in Him, having the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. And most of them have never heard of UR or participated on a Christian discussion forum. :grouppray:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 09:33:35 AM
Works do not INITIATE or MAINTAIN our faith, they testify that it is REAL.
:nod:
"I never knew you"
Doesn't that mean there was no personal relationship with Jesus? And, doesn't it tell us that a personal relationship with him is the most important thing of all?
That's how I understand it.
I had another little thought; He saved me, He saves me, He will save me. :Peace2:
Jabcat said.
"I had another little thought; He saved me, He saves me, He will save me. "
That's what I would say if someone asked me how salvation works.
t.thinking of Him saying to His church..you have a name that you are alive..but you are dead...........
I believe it is whether it is of His spirit or not..if you are called of Him..and baptized of Him....
I think men have alter calls of their own...that have nothing to do with God calling a man out........
I believe the wheat/tares parable teaches this......wheat being a genuine planting[spiritual] of the Lord
and tares being an imitation[religious observance]
Further evidenced with John the Baptist call.....'who showed you?"
I am the good shepherd...'I know my sheep..and my sheep 'know' me
He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out............
the adversary 'calls' it's own men...they don't 'know' the voice of the good shepherd...........
they are 'wolves' in sheep's clothing..men that have not the spirit=godless men
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 08, 2012, 02:24:14 PM
Jabcat said.
"I had another little thought; He saved me, He saves me, He will save me. "
That's what I would say if someone asked me how salvation works.
Absolutely :o) An ongoing process. Begun when we are born from above, but what are we born into?
2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord,
because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Chosen to a process of progressive sanctification, deliverance from the old nature as we walk in/abide in the new nature. Renewing f the mind. Transformation.
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
(Rom 8:28-30)
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2012, 09:37:59 AM
Pretty much the same page - with this addition. I do know and see many people who love the Lord, are growing in Him, having the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. And most of them have never heard of UR or participated on a Christian discussion forum. :grouppray:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 09:33:35 AM
Works do not INITIATE or MAINTAIN our faith, they testify that it is REAL.
:nod:
Of course. I don't think I said anything about the salvation of people - I was speaking about their knowledge of what full salvation is, and what the purposes of God are. Of course this impacts their understanding of His nature, but yes, I have met many people who love the Lord but their understanding is unfruitful in certain areas. I have been one of them myself- for many years :o)
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2012, 09:47:38 AM
"I never knew you"
Doesn't that mean there was no personal relationship with Jesus? And, doesn't it tell us that a personal relationship with him is the most important thing of all?
I think when Jesus said he never KNEW them I think it meant He never had intimate fellowship with them, never had full communion with them. I think this is the state of MANY people who think they are "saved" because of a prayer they prayed, or an event they experienced, or a church they go to, and
it is perpetuated by a view of the salvation of man that revolves around theology rather than a way of life- a road.
Joseph KNEW Mary, and they had another child- same word. I think it is more along those lines- but I'll grant that that is debatable.
But even if I give that point up and say OK- they never had a relationship with Jesus at all- THEY THOUGHT THEY DID! And why was that? What was it that perpetuated that blindness?
The traditions of men make the word of God of no effect.
This explanation of the judgment of God
by Jesus tells us
what God regards. It is a perfect parallel with the parable of the good Samaritan. It tells us their knowing/ or not knowing of Him was revealed- not by the works they did IN HIS NAME, but rather, the acts of kindness they did from the heart for those in need. Therefore, IMO
what that means is- many thought they knew Him but didn't, and God judged their works "as evidence" of it.
"Wide is the road that leads to destruction and many are on it." THIS IS NOT ABOUT HEAVEN AND HELL and never was. The narrow gate is about DELIVERANCE FROM THE RAVAGES OF DEATH and how we get FREE IN AIONIOS ZOE/LIFE. Many are on a road to death but think they are on a road to life.
1 Corinthians 3:15 clearly states there will be believers saved, "but as through fire". I think they are the ones of who Jesus speaks.
Like the parable of the servant who buried His talent. He RECEIVED the talent. But he revealed that He did not know(understand the divine nature of, commune with) the Lord, "I knew you were a hard man reaping where you did not sow, so I buried my talent in the ground. Here, have back what you gave me as it was when you gave it to me". Again the same answer, "Take the unprofitable servant and cast him into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
"To the one who has, more shall be given, to the one who has not, even that which he has shall be taken away"
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you
received, in which also you stand,
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you,
unless you believed in vain.
(1Co 15:1-2)
These words raise all kinds of questions with our systematic theology. But I don't mind questioning our traditions because we know that in the end, ALL ARE SAVED(healed, delivered, made whole). In this age God is
choosing a priesthood for the ages to come- that's why all the emphasis on GOOD AND BAD STEWARDS. PROFITABLE AND UNPROFITABLE SERVANTS. WORKS AND THE JUDGMENT OF GOD.
If any man does not pick up his cross daily and come follow me, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE. So, "to believe" means to PICK UP ONE'S CROSS? Can one "believe"(another religiously corrupted word along with "saved") and NOT PICK IT UP? Or would that person have RECEIVED, but BELIEVED IN VAIN? So,
if believing and picking up one's cross are the same- what IS picking up one's cross?
Sorry, I am not trying to be contentious- I am just trying to shake the tree of our RELIGIOUS PERCEPTIONS and THEOLOGICAL PRECONCEPTIONS in hopes that a deeper understanding falls out :o) Peace, John
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2012, 03:57:06 AM
Also, I've got a question for you. Did you just one day decide you were "saved", or was there more to it than that?
If so, what? From some of the things you've been saying lately, I'm curious.
Also, as far as your above post; disagreeing with you is not the same thing as not "hearing". By the grace of God, I am not "one" with the world. If you are, I'd suggest that's something to reconsider. "...such WERE some of you.."
Do you read the scriptures?
Blessings.
Also, I've got a question for you. Did you just one day decide you were "saved", or was there more to it than that? Yes I awoke one morning saved. The details are to intimate and precious
for me to share with you at this time If so, what? From some of the things you've been saying lately, I'm curious.
Also, as far as your above post; disagreeing with you is not the same thing as not "hearing". By the grace of God, I am not "one" with the world. If you are, I'd suggest that's something to reconsider. "...such WERE some of you.."God has written on my heart and in my mind that I will be
all in all with every person
I meet, talk to, or
post to .
There is only a them and us mentality if you look
back wards.
I read some where when you look back you turn to a pillar of salt.
Do you read the scriptures?I eat meat.You would only ask some one else if they read scriptures.
If you felt comfortable and may be a little pride in the fact that you read scriptures
at a verily deep level.
If that is the case answer me this from scriptures.
When Jesus said this
You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.
1) Was it a figure of speech ?
2) when to you suppose the devil became their father.
3) is every one a child of Satan until we are adopted by Jesus
4) were we Gods children and then he put us up for adoption and Satan adopted us
and then God rebirthed us.
"us and the mentality"
This is terminology, that doesnt actually communicate well.
Jesus used the words, "Father forgive THEM THEY don't know what they are doing". There was no "mentality" there but this....
"Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who thought equality with God not a thing to be manipulated to His own advantage but emptied Himself taking on the form of a servant, humbling Himself and becoming obedient to the point of death on a cross"
Let this attitude be in you that was in Messiah Jesus...........
You see, it is about attitude, not terminology.
Among them to you all were......UNTIL???????
Until the grace of God dawned within your heart and you saw Jesus through the eye of faith and said, to yourself and Father..."I want to be like HIM".
Father, I pray that they may be one, even as you and I are one.....
Little children, love one another.
I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be saved(healed,delivered,made whole,set free) through me.
If I see "them", it is through the eye of Messiah's love, and the desire that "they" would see Him and be healed.
"Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the nations"
If I see "us" it is so that "we" may lay down our lives, one for another, so that "they" can see Him in us and be healed, as we have been- if we ARE healed, let the oil roll down the head and even upon the beard of Aaron, that dew of brethren dwelling together in unity.
Have this mind/attitude which was in Messiah Jesus..........and if in anything you are "otherwise minded" God will also show that to you.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 08, 2012, 07:55:16 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2012, 03:57:06 AM
Also, I've got a question for you. Did you just one day decide you were "saved", or was there more to it than that?
If so, what? From some of the things you've been saying lately, I'm curious.
Also, as far as your above post; disagreeing with you is not the same thing as not "hearing". By the grace of God, I am not "one" with the world. If you are, I'd suggest that's something to reconsider. "...such WERE some of you.."
Do you read the scriptures?
Blessings.
Also, I've got a question for you. Did you just one day decide you were "saved", or was there more to it than that?
Yes I awoke one morning saved. The details are to intimate and precious
for me to share with you at this time
If so, what? From some of the things you've been saying lately, I'm curious.
Also, as far as your above post; disagreeing with you is not the same thing as not "hearing". By the grace of God, I am not "one" with the world. If you are, I'd suggest that's something to reconsider. "...such WERE some of you.."
God has written on my heart and in my mind that I will be all in all with every person
I meet, talk to, or post to .
There is only a them and us mentality if you look back wards.
I read some where when you look back you turn to a pillar of salt.
Do you read the scriptures?I eat meat.
You would only ask some one else if they read scriptures.
If you felt comfortable and may be a little pride in the fact that you read scriptures
at a verily deep level.
If that is the case answer me this from scriptures.
When Jesus said this
You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.
1) Was it a figure of speech ?
2) when to you suppose the devil became their father.
3) is every one a child of Satan until we are adopted by Jesus
4) were we Gods children and then he put us up for adoption and Satan adopted us
and then God rebirthed us.
Your judgment of me, once again, is incorrect. I ask you if you read the scriptures because I honestly can't tell from much of what you say, as much of it seems to contradict what they say. Maybe it's just your own interpretation that's often so apparent. We all have some of that, some more than others.
I also find that most people are more than glad to share their experience of being brought to the Savior. But that's obviously your choice if you keep it to yourself.
Have a wonderful day.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 08, 2012, 08:16:14 PM
"us and the mentality"
This is terminology, that doesnt actually communicate well.
Jesus used the words, "Father forgive THEM THEY don't know what they are doing". There was no "mentality" there but this....
Agreed John. It can be a poor choice of words. What I've most often found though, is people who use the term truly don't understand (or accept?) what the scriptures teach about it. Someone who's had a spiritual new birth by the grace and mercy of God are no longer one with the world. Though loving the world and the lost (as we once all were) and willing to be loving towards them, respectful, and spend time with them for the sake of sharing the Savior, light and darkness can no longer blend or "fellowship" (Jesus' words). Many scriptural references.
Yet Jesus ate and drank with sinners, was called a glutton and a drunkard for it, and was the friend of sinners.
We cannot have fellowship with darkness- we can have fellowship with the unenlightened. Simple friendship is often the best way to win souls :o)
Jesus was a 'holy man' and they knew it- but He loved them, and they knew that too.
He didnt judge them in it. I can find no place in the scriptures where Jesus declares judgment against anyone other than the judges.
My personal belief is that God has so written the word that anyone can hang themselves in it.
If people want to find a way to use the word of God to allow themselves to play with sin......they will.
If people want to use the word of God to bring judgment before the time, they will do that also- and that is sin.
It will all come out in the wash on the Day God judges the secrets of our hearts through Jesus Christ.
"I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts" you know, eyes like flames of fire, face shining like the sun in its strength LOL
Mat 11:19 "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children".
Wisdom is justified by her children. The wise know where the Lord is and abide therein. The unwise are always exceeding their parameters- making confident statements about things they barely understand,
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Who has been His counselor?
Who has given to Him that He should repay?
Not me :o)
Yep, yep, yep. :)
We can't just love them from a distance, amen. There is just a built-in sort of separation, I guess it's spiritual, the Holy Spirit working..God talks about a separate people. I certainly don't take that to mean haughty, or proud, or "better than", or "you're filthy/I'm clean". That's a wrong, Pharaseic (sp?) attitude. I'll admit it, I've had before, but that's not what I believe the scriptures are teaching. I believe they're teaching the "peculiarity" of being different from the world - HOWEVER the Holy Spirit works in each believer to separate them out for His bride. It can be misused and misunderstood - in either direction, IMO. One way, trying to maintain carnality and blending in with the world in every way, or on the other side, separating oneself in pride and arrogance to the point of avoiding the lost and basically becoming of little purpose (salt, light, all that). Each of us stands or falls before God. :2c: :icon_flower:
Quote from: sheila on November 08, 2012, 04:50:05 PM
t.thinking of Him saying to His church..you have a name that you are alive..but you are dead...........
I believe it is whether it is of His spirit or not..if you are called of Him..and baptized of Him....
I think men have alter calls of their own...that have nothing to do with God calling a man out........
I believe the wheat/tares parable teaches this......wheat being a genuine planting[spiritual] of the Lord
and tares being an imitation[religious observance]
Further evidenced with John the Baptist call.....'who showed you?"
:thumbsup:
and the angels said'Lord,should we pull up the tares...and He said 'Nay,lest ye uproot the wheat with the tare
let them both grow togather unto the harvests'
sometimes there are 8 tares surrounding a wheat..Luke 11;26[the wicked encompass the righteous...
therefore justice does not go forth].
I believe we all individually have our own 'tares'..and I believe all men are the wheat..the Love of God
for man being the 'seed' of it[wheat] the tares can be a spirit of pride rebelliousness,blindness deafness
hate,strife etc
I can't help but think of the jewish Chriians and the gentile christians....and their working out relations
with one another in worship...with what we are dealing with..I think there are similarities..we have
people hearingof the salvation of all..wh o do not have a familiar background with criptures..... they are
laying hold of salvation of all mankind through Christ...because they LOVE MUCH THEY ARE FORGIVEN
MUCH....
Some anoint His head..some His feet..some do not even give Him water for His feet...though they spread
a meal before Him......some beat him..crucify Him.
I am convinced of this though...that how I treat peopleis very very important...He has a way of coming
at an hour we do not expect :eek: I never want to beat a fellow servant..
what wouldI reply to Him? actually we who have 'more?" understanding are more accountable than those
who don't I keep hearing..whatever you do or not to one of these least ones you do or not to me....Matt 5;19
whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same is 'least'
in the kingdom of heaven...BUT how we treat these 'least' that are in error IS VERY IMPORTANT
Love compels us to instruct 'according to accurate knowledge' whether they receive it or not..but
at the very least we speak of it..reason if tolerated..but when they reject it..it is not to our account
God will save all mankind..from sin and death..but that does not mean sin is not sin with all it's
consequences..or that sin is right.
well I'm running on.......
:HeartThrob: Keep running Sheila! :)
Jesus used the words, "Father forgive THEM THEY don't know what they are doing". There was no "mentality" there but this....
Yes if we look backwards to before Jesus said it is finished there was an us and them.
Father, I pray that they may be one, even as you and I are one.....
God answered the prayer and made us all one.
The only way you can be one is if you believe you are one.
No us or them just one.
Just one on a journey with the one mind God gave each of us.
The one mind that can be trained to be one with them and us.
IMO there is no us and them.
there is just me and you on a journey sharing the mind of Christ.
If you are a tyrant that makes me tyrant.
If you are in relationship with Christ and have the mind of Christ so do I.
There just simply said is no them or us while looking forward.
There is only a them and us in the past.
Thank you for not carrying on the pettiness and insulting. It's much better to discuss the scriptures and their meanings and applications as best we can understand them and as it's revealed.
You may not believe it as I do, and that's not up to me. But I 'm trying to show what I think I see the scriptures say, attempting to rightly divide them. As I see it, the "looking back" thing would have to exclude Paul, after the cross. Because as sheila posted numerous scrips from Paul, he made very clear distinctions between believers and unbelievers, talked about separation of the two, although we are also certainly to interact with, to love, witness, and pray for them. :2c:
Re: "everyone is one", and the reference to Jesus' prayer; I believe Jesus was praying for the 12 who were in His presence at the time, and is the context of the verse - that they [the 12 He was sending forth] would be one. Then He prayed for those who would hear the 12 and believe, that they would be one. Then He went further and made a distinction between believers and unbelievers.
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 "I have revealed you to [Group 1] those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for [Group 2, believers] those who will believe in me through their [the 12] message, 21 that all of them may be one, Then [Group 3, unbelievers] the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me..though the world does not know you..."
I don't see anywhere here where Jesus combines believers and unbelievers as one.
Paul then says much about believers and the world/unbelievers, and how the ekklesia should approach that. Then of course, Paul talks about the reconciliation of ALL...in the next age, the age to come.
I'll pray for blessings upon you.
A list of companies projecting future layoffs because of Obamacare. A lot of them are high tech medical companies. Hospitals defense companies, manufacturing companies. I feel like crying. Would somebody please tell me why we just destroyed ourselves? Why? Why?
Mourning in America - Here's Those Layoffs We Voted For Last Night
http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/grusbf5/good-morning-america-heres-those-layoffs-you-voted
Please be honest
I ask you if you read the scriptures because I honestly can't tell from much of what you say, as much of it seems to contradict what they say.
Jabcat why can't we have an honest disscusion as a moderator I thought you be able to
with out getting your feelings hurt.
Instead you say you think I'm some kind of scriptural illiterate.
I have dedicated years to scriptural memory .
As paul was forced to brag about being a Jew .
I challenge you to go to a down town street corner in the afternoon
and quote the book of Isaiah and have some one put it on you tube.
For the sake of my scriptural well being could you please post the unscriptural
things I have said and the scriptures that prove what I said was unscriptural.
Also if there are any other moderators you believe we can have open and honest discussions about whether.
Is having a THEM or US mentality or attitude scripturally or spiritually sound ?
I seemed spiritual compelled to eliminate that which separates.
I asked Jabcat to comment on this verse
Jesus said this .
You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.
He was clearly describing a separation did he close that separation on the cross
1) Was it a figure of speech ?
2) when to you suppose the devil became their father.
3) is every one a child of Satan until we are adopted by Jesus
4) were we Gods children and then he put us up for adoption and Satan adopted us
and then God rebirthed us.
'I DON'T SEE ANYWHERE HERE WHERE JESUS COMBINES BELIEVERS AND UNBELIEVERS AS ONE
ROMANS 9;21 DOES NOT THE POTTER HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE OF THE SAME LUMP
OF CLAY[ALL HUMANITY AS CLAY VESSELS]
,SOME POTTERY FOR NOBLE PURPOSE AND SOME FOR COMMON USE
WHAT IF GOD,CHOOSING TO SHOW HIS WRATH AND MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN[FEET OF CLAY
MIXED WITH IRON] BORE WITH GREAT PATIENCE THE OBJECT OF HIS WRATH-PREPARED FOR
DESTRUCTION? wHAT IF HE DID THIS TO MAKE THE RICHES OF HIS GLORY KNOWN TO THE OBJECTS
OF HIS MERCY.....AS HE SAYS IN HOSEA I ILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT MY PEOPLE
[THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S PATIENCE IS TO BRING TO REPENTANCE..THE PURPOSE OF ANY WRATH OF
GOD IS TO DESTROY THAT WHICH DESTROYS/ABOMINATION..IN ORDER THAT HE MAY RESTORE/NOBLE USE
WE ARE ALL ONE IN THIS WAY...BOUND OVER TO SIN/DEATH SUBJECTED TO VANITY
TO BE SET FREE IN CHRIST FROM SUCH BINDING
Thank you for not carrying on the pettiness and insulting
These are words of provocation.
I do not believe you were grateful to me
Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor?
I believe I am that same lump of clay.
Part of me was made for dishonor ( my flesh carnal mind)
Part of me was made for honor ( soul, my spirit all the eternal parts of me)
I believe that each one of us is separated from them selves.
But we are all the same .
Just in different phases of God separating our selves from our selves.
I'm not going to continue trying to rebutt your assumptions and judgments of my intent, thoughts, and attitude. I thought I was discussing real issues, but I don't want to just keep going in circles. Maybe we just can't communicate with each other well. It happens. Take care.
i DO TOO. hOSEA CHAPTERS 1 2 AND 3 SHOW THIS PROCESS..HIS PEOPLE..UNFAITHFUL...NOT
MY PEOPLE[PUNISHED AND RESTORED] AND FINALLY RESTORED RECONCILIATION
JUST IN DIFFERNT PHASES OF SEPERATION...YES!!
Jabcat you made the accusation that most of what I post is unscriptural.
Either apologies for the accusation or show me my many post that are unscriptural.
As a moderator I would assume you would like debates carried on.
How can you accuse my posts as being unscriptural and then rather than
give proof of your accusation you run and hide and say I don't wana talk about it.
Not running and hiding bro. Just not much of a dancer. I prefer fruitful discussion.
I could take the time to go back post by post, but I have other things to do right now. I don't want to hammer on you anyway. If you're good with your beliefs, I'm sure you're right about many things, and anyway, at some point it's between you and God anyway. I never said I knew it all or had all the answers. I tried to share some things from the scriptures, if you don't see it that way or accept it, then I personally can move on. Can you?
Also, you must have read, this isn't a debate forum. It's a discussion forum - a sharing of ideas, not trying to keep hammering on each other and make someone see the other person's view. I've shared - yes, I have MUCH more I could share, but I choose not to right now. I have my own reasons. As I said, I don't enjoy just struggling with someone, especially if it gets into and stays in personal stuff. Don't need it, don't need to do it. We both probably have better things to spend our energy on.
Dajo,
You are demanding an apology from Jabcat?
Even tho' LOVE takes no offense and hardly ever notices when others do it wrong?
When you post, no one would question if it was scriptural or not if you would post the scripture you are using.
This isn't a debate forum - this is a discussion forum.
The mere fact that you are being contentious with Jabcat shows this "oneness" you're quoting is in your imagination.
Do you really believe we will are all one as the Father and Christ are one while here on earth in this body of sin?
IMO, That oneness will not be acheived until all are reconciled to Christ.
Please keep in mind we are here to discuss ideas, not to get upset if others disagree with us. :gimmefive:
Sorry Jab, I wrote mine while you wrote yours
Bitter cold inside a disaster shelter
'You could see your breath,' displaced resident says
5:46 AM, Nov 9, 2012 |
56 Comments
OCEANPORT — As he lights up a Marlboro and takes a slow drag before exhaling, Brian Sotelo is a man who has finally reached his breaking point.
Anger drips from every word as he peers out at the tops of the white tents rising over the trees in the distance. The depth of despair in his eyes is difficult to fathom.
And he makes it clear he's was not going down without a fight.
We stood and talked in the cool morning air a short distance up the
road after security at the front gate threatened to have our cars removed outside the entrance to what Sotelo's identification tag calls "Camp Freedom," even though it more closely resembles a prison camp.
A Seaside Heights resident who was at Pine Belt Arena in Toms River with his wife and three kids a half-hour before the shelter opened as superstorm Sandy approached last week, Sotelo was part of a contingent shifted on Wednesday to this makeshift tent city in the parking lot across Oceanport Avenue from Monmouth Park.
"Sitting there last night you could see your breath," said Sotelo. "At (Pine Belt) the Red Cross made an announcement that they were sending us to permanent structures up here that had just been redone, that had washing machines and hot showers and steady electric, and they sent us to tent city. We got (expletive).
"The elections are over and here we are. There were Blackhawk helicopters flying over all day and night. They have heavy equipment moving past the tents all night."
Welcome to the part of the disaster where people start falling through the cracks.
No media is allowed inside the fenced complex, which houses operations for JCP&L's army of workers from out of the area. The FEMA website indicated on Monday that there had been a shelter for first responders, utility and construction workers to take a break, although the compound now contains a full-time shelter operated by the state Department of Human Services.
Sotelo scrolls through the photos he took inside the facility as his wife, Renee, huddles for warmth inside a late-model Toyota Corolla stuffed with possessions, having to drive out through the snow and slush to tell their story. The images on the small screen include lines of outdoor portable toilets, of snow and ice breaching the bottom of the tent and an elderly woman sitting up, huddled in blankets.
All the while, a black car with tinted windows crests the hill and cruises by, as if to check on the proceedings.
As Sotelo tells it, when it became clear that the residents were less than enamored with their new accommodations Wednesday night and were letting the outside world know about it, officials tried to stop them from taking pictures, turned off the WiFi and said they couldn't charge their smart phones because there wasn't enough power.
"My 6-year-old daughter Angie was a premie and has a problem regulating her body temperature," Sotelo noted. "Until 11 (Wednesday) night they had no medical personnel at all here, not even a nurse. After everyone started complaining and they found out we were contacting the press, they brought people in. Every time we plugged in an iPhone or something, the cops would come and unplug them. Yet when they moved us in they laid out cable on the table and the electricians told us they were setting up charging stations. But suddenly there wasn't enough power."
All of this is merely the last straw for a 46-year-old on disability, with two rods and 22 staples in his back.
The staff at the micro-city are providing for the needs of all the evacuees," said Nicole Brossoie, spokeswoman for the Department of Human Services. "Each day there is transportation to the pharmacy for prescription medications, if needed. There are ADA (handicapped-accessible) toilets and showers on site.
"There were concerns with the heat when evacuees first arrived. Those issues were resolved within a couple of hours by adding more heaters."
Sotelo's seen the home he rents on Kearney Avenue even though residents have yet to be allowed back, having been enlisted as a driver for the Red Cross.
He was on the barrier islands the day after the storm, as a matter of fact. There had been a foot of water in his place. That's it. And now he's left to wonder why he's still not allowed back.
Even without gas or electric, he figures it has to be better than this place."Everybody is angry over here. It's like being prison," said Sotelo, who grew up in Wayne. "I've been working since I was 10. I've been on my own since I was 16. And for things to be so bad that it's pissing me off, that tells you something.
After a night of restless sleep in which his cot actually broke at one point, landing him on the floor, what Sotelo wants are answers and action. He wants to go home, and until that happens he wants a little respect.
Finally, he tosses his cigarette butt aside and sidles back into the driver's seat of his car, ready to head back through the gates of the encampment, as confused and frustrated as ever about his future.
http://www.app.com/viewart/20121109/NJNEWS/311090027/Oceanport-sandy-shelter
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 09, 2012, 08:11:04 PM
Dajo,
You are demanding an apology from Jabcat?
Even tho' LOVE takes no offense and hardly ever notices when others do it wrong?
I am not offended I proposed he apologies or show me my scriptural errors.
I would prefer that he show me my errors.
How can I grow if I am left with my errors and no one to show me those errors.
When you post, no one would question if it was scriptural or not if you would post the scripture you are using.
Yes I agree.
This isn't a debate forum - this is a discussion forum.
Yes I forget that some times.
The mere fact that you are being contentious with Jabcat shows this "oneness" you're quoting is in your imagination.
Yes there is a oness in my imagination. My imagination is where I believe.
As I let go of old thinking and grab on to new there is contention ,but it is not with Jabcat.
It is with in myself as the Spirit compells me to see past that which seperates
and see that which unites
Do you really believe we will are all one as the Father and Christ are one while here on earth in this body of sin?
Yes Yes Yes When I look with the mind of christ.I believe we are all one (I pray God help me with my unbelieve)IMO,
That oneness will not be acheived until all are reconciled to Christ.
Please keep in mind we are here to discuss ideas, not to get upset if others disagree with us. :gimmefive:
Yes I disagree with your opinion of oneness.
If one person can believe that we are one maybe two people can believe we are one....... Sorry Jab, I wrote mine while you wrote yours
QuoteYes Yes Yes When I look with the mind of christ.I believe we are all one (I pray God help me with my unbelieve)IMO,
If we are all one, please tell me what we can do for those people who were hit by a Tsunami that no one is mentioning and are now, having lost their homes, their possessions, and their freedom, are freezing to death in some tent city in the middle of a nor'easter. Obviously, sending money doesn't help if this is the best the Red Cross and Fema can do.
If we are all one, then we all feel their pain and wish to alleviate it. So what can we do?
Oh, and we are going to have to figure it out ourselves, because our fearless leader is off on another trip, to Asia this time, yukking it up with the Communists.
Prisons! Why didn't I think of that! :mblush:
The New York Post reports that state officials are considering the Arthur Kill Correctional Facility on Staten Island to feed and house as many as 900 victims with nowhere else to turn.
Read more: http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/20053522/new-york-officials-reportedly-consider-closed-prison-for-displaced-sandy-victims#ixzz2BlKg51aa
As many as 40,000 New Yorkers need shelter from extreme weather events, according to city estimates. On Staten Island alone, about 5,200 people applied for temporary FEMA housing, but only about two dozen people have been successfully placed, federal sources told the newspaper.
We had a major earth quake off of the west coast of the
Queen Charlotte Islands couple of days ago.
They issued a major tsunami warning.
Praise God there was no damage and the wave did not hit the west coast of
Canada and USA.
The best is to pray for those on the East coast.
People suffering need relief from there suffering.
I look forward to the end of suffering for all.
Me too daj. So badly. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2012, 11:44:25 PM
We had a major earth quake off of the west coast of the
Queen Charlotte Islands couple of days ago.
They issued a major tsunami warning.
Praise God there was no damage and the wave did not hit the west coast of
Canada and USA.
The best is to pray for those on the East coast.
People suffering need relief from there suffering.
I look forward to the end of suffering for all.
I too prayed prior to, during & after the hurricane hit and was gone; then shortly thereafter they got hit by the biggest snowstorm in almost 100 years. Was that an answer to our prayers? The people who suffered the most were those least able to afford it, already living paycheck to paycheck but who were the least served by their government, our prayers were about all they had left. I've wondered how many did not have homeowner's insurance, because they could not afford it.
they are all heavy on my heart too.Ihis i also know....I live in the new madred fault area.....and all the
things they are going through..we too..could expierence here,in a moment..with millions of people
affected just like them.Lord,I pray..send angels of mercy their way.
better a neighbor that is near..then a brother far away on the day of catastrophy..
Quote from: sheila on November 10, 2012, 01:20:49 AM
they are all heavy on my heart too.Ihis i also know....I live in the new madred fault area.....and all the
things they are going through..we too..could expierence here,in a moment..with millions of people
affected just like them.Lord,I pray..send angels of mercy their way.
better a neighbor that is near..then a brother far away on the day of catastrophy..
There are many heavy hearts... I've been looking for a verse or two to bring comfort to our hearts and minds... I'll keep looking... for now know that I join all who are in prayers for all the struggling people... whether the pain, the struggle is caused by other men or by weather conditions.
Economy: Post-Election Firings and Layoffs Surge
The victory by Barack Obama on election night has resulted in a huge wave of firings and layoffs all over America. A large number of businesses seem to have suddenly shifted into panic mode. The number of layoff announcements that we have seen in the last 48 hours has been absolutely shocking.
Read more at http://marketdailynews.com/2012/11/10/economy-post-election-firings-and-layoffs-surge/#u7up3XREW6ELmQkH.99
We might as well admit we are being systematically destroyed as a country, don't you think? Also known as "fundamental transformaton."
:"fundamental"
Adjective: Forming a necessary base or core; of central importance.
Noun: A central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.
"transformation"
A thorough or dramatic change in form or appearance
Do people have a problem with the foundation upon which our country was based--God and Constitution? Do they really want to change THAT? Or is it that they don't know the meaning of words and are too lazy to look them up in the dictionary? Or is it that they have succumbed to a strong delusion?
A large part of prophecy is just paying attention. But, most won't see until their own ox is gored.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKxDdxzX0kI
Strong delusion. I've been talking about this on facebook, some believers, some unbelievers. The lack of vision is absolutely incredible. It truly is as if a veil has been place over millions of peoples' eyes. I'm personally searching for some answers, what's God's plan in all this, where He's taking things/allowing them to go, what's going to happen before He brings all this full circle..Jesus remind me that You're still in control.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness..Is. 5:20
The fact that hundreds of thousands of military ballots may have been lost, compromised, or never collected really bothers me. Can't they do something about that?
http://www.westernjournalism.com/did-obama-steal-the-election/
Quote from: jabcat on November 11, 2012, 09:53:23 AM
Strong delusion. I've been talking about this on facebook, some believers, some unbelievers. The lack of vision is absolutely incredible. It truly is as if a veil has been place over millions of peoples' eyes. I'm personally searching for some answers, what's God's plan in all this, where He's taking things/allowing them to go, what's going to happen before He brings all this full circle..Jesus remind me that You're still in control.
Jabcat & Molly: I always appreciate reading your posts re: current events as they fit into prophecy
Molly: for keeping these events before us-reminds me to watch/pray as per Mark 13 and Luke 21
Jabcat: your thoughts/Scriptures remind me to praise and thank God; it's all in His ever loving and merciful hands.
Election Fraud? Obama Won More Than 99 Percent Of The Vote In More Than 100 Ohio Precincts
In this first set of Cuyahoga County [OHIO] precincts, Mitt Romney received exactly zero votes in each instance...
0154 CLEVELAND -02-Q: 542 - 0
0192 CLEVELAND -04-L: 388 - 0
0204 CLEVELAND -05-E: 597 - 0
0205 CLEVELAND -05-F: 483 - 0
0206 CLEVELAND -05-G: 257 - 0
0219 CLEVELAND -05-T: 386 - 0
0228 CLEVELAND -06-H: 405 - 0
0232 CLEVELAND -06-L: 70 - 0
0233 CLEVELAND -06-M: 419 - 0
0241 CLEVELAND -06-U: 118 - 0
0248 CLEVELAND -07-F: 361 - 0
0273 CLEVELAND -08-J: 472 - 0
0280 CLEVELAND -08-Q: 49 - 0
0285 CLEVELAND -09-B: 414 - 0
0288 CLEVELAND -09-E: 478 - 0
0523 EAST CLEVELAND -04-C: 486 - 0
Are we actually supposed to believe that not a single person wanted to vote for Mitt Romney in any of those precincts?
But wait, there's more.
In this next set of results we get to see many of the precincts where Mitt Romney received exactly one vote...
0118 CLEVELAND -01-A: 438 - 1
0144 CLEVELAND -02-G: 532 - 1
0183 CLEVELAND -04-C: 548 - 1
0185 CLEVELAND -04-E: 522 - 1
0190 CLEVELAND -04-J: 434 - 1
0200 CLEVELAND -05-A: 364 - 1
0217 CLEVELAND -05-R: 357 - 1
0240 CLEVELAND -06-T: 148 - 1
0272 CLEVELAND -08-I: 473 - 1
0274 CLEVELAND -08-K: 382 - 1
0276 CLEVELAND -08-M: 492 - 1
0279 CLEVELAND -08-P: 378 - 1
0284 CLEVELAND -09-A: 320 - 1
0287 CLEVELAND -09-D: 394 - 1
0289 CLEVELAND -09-F: 468 - 1
0290 CLEVELAND -09-G: 400 - 1
0303 CLEVELAND -10-C: 471 - 1
0312 CLEVELAND -10-L: 363 - 1
0314 CLEVELAND -10-N: 340 - 1
0315 CLEVELAND -10-O: 473 - 1
0512 EAST CLEVELAND -02-D: 437 - 1
0513 EAST CLEVELAND -02-E: 359 - 1
1040 WARRENSVILLE HTS -02-A: 523 - 1
1041 WARRENSVILLE HTS -02-B: 514 - 1
Do these numbers look believable to anyone out there?Now let's look at some of the Cuyahoga County precincts where Mitt Romney received exactly two votes...
0120 CLEVELAND -01-C: 531 - 2
0128 CLEVELAND -01-K: 470 - 2
0136 CLEVELAND -01-S: 635 - 2
0147 CLEVELAND -02-J: 541 - 2
0148 CLEVELAND -02-K: 632 - 2
0149 CLEVELAND -02-L: 531 - 2
0153 CLEVELAND -02-P: 564 - 2
0155 CLEVELAND -02-R: 509 - 2
0187 CLEVELAND -04-G: 491 - 2
0188 CLEVELAND -04-H: 508 - 2
0194 CLEVELAND -04-N: 520 - 2
0211 CLEVELAND -05-L: 461 - 2
0213 CLEVELAND -05-N: 324 - 2
0222 CLEVELAND -06-B: 637 - 2
0225 CLEVELAND -06-E: 505 - 2
0226 CLEVELAND -06-F: 342 - 2
0234 CLEVELAND -06-N: 244 - 2
0236 CLEVELAND -06-P: 438 - 2
0249 CLEVELAND -07-G: 446 - 2
0250 CLEVELAND -07-H: 358 - 2
0251 CLEVELAND -07-I: 445 - 2
0253 CLEVELAND -07-K: 429 - 2
0256 CLEVELAND -07-N: 433 - 2
0262 CLEVELAND -07-T: 363 - 2
0269 CLEVELAND -08-F: 463 - 2
0270 CLEVELAND -08-G: 516 - 2
0278 CLEVELAND -08-O: 405 - 2
0302 CLEVELAND -10-B: 452 - 2
0311 CLEVELAND -10-K: 476 - 2
0511 EAST CLEVELAND -02-C: 319 - 2
0515 EAST CLEVELAND -03-A: 359 - 2
0516 EAST CLEVELAND -03-B: 459 - 2
0519 EAST CLEVELAND -03-E: 293 - 2
0526 EAST CLEVELAND -04-F: 517 - 2
0625 HIGHLAND HILLS -00-A: 377 - 2
These numbers look even more bizarre when you start comparing them with the overall results from the rest of Cuyahoga County that you can find right here.The results from most of the precincts look very much like what you would expect from a competitive national election.But there are more than 100 precincts where the results look incredibly suspicious. Here are some more precincts where Barack Obama won more than 99% of the vote...
0119 CLEVELAND -01-B: 558 - 4
0121 CLEVELAND -01-D: 452 - 3
0122 CLEVELAND -01-E: 671 - 5
0123 CLEVELAND -01-F: 704 - 6
0124 CLEVELAND -01-G: 543 - 3
0126 CLEVELAND -01-I: 674 - 4
0127 CLEVELAND -01-J: 687 - 4
0130 CLEVELAND -01-M: 781 - 4
0132 CLEVELAND -01-O: 615 - 4
0133 CLEVELAND -01-P: 733 - 5
0134 CLEVELAND -01-Q: 753 - 6
0135 CLEVELAND -01-R: 697 - 5
0142 CLEVELAND -02-E: 434 - 3
0145 CLEVELAND -02-H: 571 - 3
0150 CLEVELAND -02-M: 503 - 4
0151 CLEVELAND -02-N: 601 - 3
0152 CLEVELAND -02-O: 621 - 3
0156 CLEVELAND -02-S: 471 - 4
0157 CLEVELAND -03-A: 489 - 3
0184 CLEVELAND -04-D: 576 - 3
0186 CLEVELAND -04-F: 572 - 3
0189 CLEVELAND -04-I: 503 - 3
0191 CLEVELAND -04-K: 508 - 4
0193 CLEVELAND -04-M: 497 - 4
0195 CLEVELAND -04-O: 599 - 3
0196 CLEVELAND -04-P: 443 - 3
0199 CLEVELAND -04-S: 686 - 5
0203 CLEVELAND -05-D: 569 - 4
0207 CLEVELAND -05-H: 341 - 3
0210 CLEVELAND -05-K: 427 - 3
0212 CLEVELAND -05-M: 340 - 3
0216 CLEVELAND -05-Q: 461 - 4
0218 CLEVELAND -05-S: 515 - 5
0221 CLEVELAND -06-A: 701 - 3
0223 CLEVELAND -06-C: 462 - 4
0227 CLEVELAND -06-G: 401 - 3
0230 CLEVELAND -06-J: 475 - 4
0254 CLEVELAND -07-L: 447 - 4
0261 CLEVELAND -07-S: 449 - 4
0271 CLEVELAND -08-H: 552 - 4
0275 CLEVELAND -08-L: 499 - 3
0282 CLEVELAND -08-S: 517 - 4
0292 CLEVELAND -09-I: 423 - 4
0294 CLEVELAND -09-K: 445 - 4
0307 CLEVELAND -10-G: 428 - 4
0317 CLEVELAND -10-Q: 446 - 3
0320 CLEVELAND -10-T: 654 - 5
0510 EAST CLEVELAND -02-B: 401 - 4
0518 EAST CLEVELAND -03-D: 374 - 3
0520 EAST CLEVELAND -03-F: 457 - 3
0521 EAST CLEVELAND -04-A: 453 - 4
1045 WARRENSVILLE HTS -04-B: 598 - 4
1049 WARRENSVILLE HTS -06-B: 480 - 4
Once again, perhaps there is a rational explanation for all of this.But I find it really hard to believe that one candidate would get more than 99% of the vote in more than 100 precincts in one of the most important counties in the most hotly contested swing state of the 2012 election.
Read more at http://investmentwatchblog.com/election-fraud-obama-won-more-than-99-percent-of-the-vote-in-more-than-100-ohio-precincts/#6xy9UksXpqyCwBmj.99
Quote from: goodreport on November 11, 2012, 02:41:02 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 11, 2012, 09:53:23 AM
Strong delusion. I've been talking about this on facebook, some believers, some unbelievers. The lack of vision is absolutely incredible. It truly is as if a veil has been place over millions of peoples' eyes. I'm personally searching for some answers, what's God's plan in all this, where He's taking things/allowing them to go, what's going to happen before He brings all this full circle..Jesus remind me that You're still in control.
Jabcat & Molly: I always appreciate reading your posts re: current events as they fit into prophecy
Molly: for keeping these events before us-reminds me to watch/pray as per Mark 13 and Luke 21
Jabcat: your thoughts/Scriptures remind me to praise and thank God; it's all in His ever loving and merciful hands.
Thank you, amen.
Yeah Molly, not very likely. Obviously "something's going on".
As I sort through this (or as God sorts me through this), God had a plan even in the Dark Ages. I guess we shouldn't be dismayed or lose hope.
IMO
While I believe we are to pray for our nation.....and I believe God raised up America, I believe that there is no "good side" in our government(for instance, Democrat or Republican). Corruption runs rampant in both parties, and the reformers from both parties are continually repressed by a bi-partisan elite in Congress that are working together on almost all of the seriously dysfunctional things that are ruining our country.
Democrats and Republicans passed GATT and NAFTA and now we have no manufacturing jobs.
Democrats and Republicans voted to remove barriers between big centralized banks and insurance companies and now our pensions are being destroyed and pocketed by the elite wealthy.
Democrats and Republicans created HMOs and put healthcare in the hands of corporations and now insurance costs are spiraling as care for the 'average" insuree is dwindling.
Democrats and Republicans are co-operating behind closed doors on most of the really messed up stuff that happens in this country.
Only the power of prayer and a national revival can save us now.
I just watched a well researched video on you tube called, The new world order - secret societies and biblical prophecies. It's almost 2 1/2 hours long so it took me a few days but it was well worth it with information I was wondering about and/or suspected but had neve really put together.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL6v8nzFiUk&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL6v8nzFiUk&feature=related)
I mentioned a 45 second clip within the video concerning a famous christian minister saying Jesus was not the messiah.
If you can't watch the whole video, that clip from 2:11:54 to 2:12:39 is a must see. :thumbsup:
Hmmm...PA now...19605 to 0
:umnick:
Poll watcher sees Romney ballots changed
Witness to voting says he monitored as software redirected choices
Published: 37 mins ago
Up to 10 percent of the ballots cast at a polling station in Pennsylvania reverted to a default, which gave Barack Obama a vote no matter who the voter had selected, according to a poll watcher who was a witness to the proceedings.
The incident took place in the state where officials claimed Obama got a total of 19,605 votes in 59 voting divisions to zero for Mitt Romney and not far from the 100 precincts in Ohio where Obama got 99 percent of the vote, a feat not even achieved by third-world dictators, according to Market Daily News.
It was in Upper Macungie Township, near Allentown, Pa., where an auditor, Robert Ashcroft, was dispatched by Republicans to monitor the vote on Election Day. He said the software he observed would "change the selection back to default – to Obama."
He said that happened in about 5 percent to 10 percent of the votes.
He said the changes appeared to have been made by a software program.
Ashcroft said the format for computer programming has a default status, and in this case it appeared to be designating a vote for Obama each time it went to default.
He found it suspicious that Romney and Obama were in a virtual tie in most polls, but Obama then suddenly surged ahead by a number of points on election night.
"How the heck does that happen?" he wondered.
more at...
http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/poll-watcher-sees-romney-ballots-changed/
#1 drives me up the wall
#2 for this to happen, even though it appears there's likely cheating, God must have a plan for it
#3 Allen West is requesting a total recount in Florida. Among other things, he said the fact that the official state statement was that there was 141% :wacko2: voter turnout indicates a problem
#4 we know He hates dishonesty. besides that, what are some opinions on where God stands in all this? what do you think He wants us to do? what do you think He is going to do?
Quotewhat do you think He wants us to do?
I think...He wants us to watch...watch what evil men do....watch what righteous men do...
Report it to others...
Try to do what righteous men do.
I'm thinking Allen West is a righteous man.
Do what is right.
11 In the Lord put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.
3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
4 The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Psa 11
I am not sure it really matters. If there was election fraud to the extent that it could have changed the outcome it will come out. However, I was following the polls myself- only a very few out of many had Romney in a dead heat. Most of the major legitimate polls had him behind in virtually all the battleground states and that is how it turned out. I was surprised he did as well as he did.
I am also surprised that people do not realize how fundamentally dishonest both campaigns were. I really don't see Mitt as having been any better an alternative than Barack. Both of them are bought and paid for by the power brokers above both parties that give money to both campaigns and control WHOEVER WINS :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on November 13, 2012, 05:31:57 AM
I am not sure it really matters. If there was election fraud to the extent that it could have changed the outcome it will come out. However, I was following the polls myself- only a very few out of many had Romney in a dead heat. Most of the major legitimate polls had him behind in virtually all the battleground states and that is how it turned out. I was surprised he did as well as he did.
I am also surprised that people do not realize how fundamentally dishonest both campaigns were. I really don't see Mitt as having been any better an alternative than Barack. Both of them are bought and paid for by the power brokers above both parties that give money to both campaigns and control WHOEVER WINS :o)
well, that's just not true about the polls. If you look at the internals on the polls, you will see they added between 5 and 7 points to the Democrat side. They did this because they made the assumption [for what reason I cannot understand] that the turnout would be the same in 2012 as it was in 2008. As we know, it was not. In fact 3 percent less Democrats voted in 2012 as in 2008. That fact alone means Romney was really ahead in these polls.
But, added to that is the fact that Independents were breaking for Romney in double digits, and they were not included in these polls. You will notice these polls never show 100 percent. Independents make up an average of 20 to 50 percent of the electorate today and when you add them into the mix, Romney wins by a landslide.
I understand your point about Mitt, but if we cannot even have an honest election in this country any more, then what do we do about it? Throw up our hands? Or try to fix it.
because without honest elections, there is just no hope at all.
The differences I see are official sanction of abortion and same sex marriage. Also, a monstrous albatros has been hung around our neck with "obamacare". People need care, but IMO, not this way. Potentially more damage than good.
I do see though that there are other powers at work ("the two machines", powers and principalities, etc).
Which brings me back to where God stands in all this, what He expects, and what He'll do/where things are headed. Some of us may have a tendency to think things are going to get really bad. They might. But they were even worse during the Dark Ages, and time marched on, people lived and died, God "reappeared". I know what you mean Molly by watching, reporting ("crying in the desert")..but what else? Where are things headed? Maybe we just can't know..but I sure do wonder........ I also know that our hope is in the Lord...sometimes I'm not sure how that actually gets "walked out"...maybe just simply trust, live in surrender and obedience looking to Him to lead us in all His ways, and live day to day hidden in Him..and He'll secure us in Him and reveal things over time...the longer I live, I realize there's so much I don't really know or deeply understand...
well, I'll tell you one thing it probably doesn't mean.
It doesn't mean do nothing.
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
--Mat 5
Quote from: jabcat on November 13, 2012, 05:47:25 AM
The differences I see are official sanction of abortion and same sex marriage. Also, a monstrous albatros has been hung around our neck with "obamacare". People need care, but IMO, not this way. Potentially more damage than good.
I do see though that there are other powers at work ("the two machines", powers and principalities, etc).
Which brings me back to where God stands in all this, what He expects, and what He'll do/where things are headed. Some of us may have a tendency to think things are going to get really bad. They might. But they were even worse during the Dark Ages, and time marched on, people lived and died, God "reappeared". I know what you mean Molly by watching, reporting ("crying in the desert")..but what else? Where are things headed? Maybe we just can't know..but I sure do wonder........ I also know that our hope is in the Lord...sometimes I'm not sure how that actually gets "walked out"...maybe just simply trust, live in surrender and obedience looking to Him to lead us in all His ways, and live day to day hidden in Him..and He'll secure us in Him and reveal things over time...the longer I live, I realize there's so much I don't really know or deeply understand...
No it doesn't mean do nothing. It is just that we are choosing between evils here. The Republicans sanction monstrous thefts, profiteering wars and have mounted no SERIOUS challenge of Roe vs Wade. It is all posturing in order to con the religious right. Romney was a hand puppet of the oligarchy that is taking over the world- AS IS OBAMA.
The something we should be doing is SEEKING GOD with our whole hearts- but we are to busy fighting religious wars to fill our new-built churches to see that we COULD BE THE MAJORITY- God forgives us.
Personally, I think there are a few honest politicians, but NONE OF THEM ARE CLOSE TO THE WHEELS OF POWER.
You have to sell your soul to get into that rarefied air now. Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Mitt Romney and his company Bain Ultra were among the worst of the violators of the bail-out. Bain Ultra was BAILED OUT. The company was going BANKRUPT- and it had bankrupted many other companies and a few banks on the way there.
HOW COME THAT WAS NOT PUBLICIZED?
My only point is this. DO YOU THINK YOU ARE LOOKING DEEPLY ENOUGH INTO WHERE OUR HOPE IS?
IF YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN TWO EVILS- SHOULD YOU CHOOSE ONE- OR PROCLAIM THE TRUTH ABOUT BOTH?
I think I know what the prophets and sages who went before me would have done.
The problem is that people think there is a conspiracy by one side or the other, when THE REAL CONSPIRACY IS WORLD-WIDE AND BIGGER THAN BOTH SIDES AND ALL MANKIND IS THE TARGET OF IT-
If we were going to fix anything I think we should be campaigning for states rights and DIS-EMPOWERING THE ENTIRE FEDERAL SYSTEM of government and banking- but that makes me a madman :o)
So I guess I just have to sit back and watch the fight under that tree of the knowledge of good and evil between people getting excited over which villain is going to rule the roost.
QuoteIf we were going to fix anything I think we should be campaigning for states rights and DIS-EMPOWERING THE ENTIRE FEDERAL SYSTEM of government and banking- but that makes me a madman :o)
Who says we're not doing that?
QuoteSo I guess I just have to sit back and watch the fight under that tree of the knowledge of good and evil between people getting excited over which villain is going to rule the roost
That is just so unfair. How about getting excited over election results that look like they are coming from a third world country? I'm really trying to avoid an argument about the candidates at this point, but we could at least agree to have an honest election.
It's only unfair if it's untrue :o)
I'm sorry if I offend, It's not my intention to do so- I just don't think the Republican party is any better than the Democrats. IMO, The conflict in this nations soul runs much deeper.
This is only my opinion......I hope we are not judging one another based on what political party we support- that would be really Babylonian, especially choosing between these two heads of gold.
I belong to neither party, I'm an Independent and would be happy if there was a viable third party. However, I don't believe politics is the answer. I guess a person can abstain, or choose between the least of 2 evils. I also guess a person's perspective determines for them individually, which is which.
For my view, one is very flawed, while the other is terminal - arms open to any and all legal perversions.
:dontknow: I've been looking for an unincorporated island where I can be :icon_king:
:laughing7:
Prophecy. Prophecy. What's God thinking when He looks down on this? What does He plan to do? Do you think our lifetimes will go on as thousands of years before us, or is He on the verge of doing something else? Does anybody know, or are we all just guessing?
As I said, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know... :pitiful:
For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
Heb. 11:10
Quote from: jabcat on November 13, 2012, 08:06:01 AM
Prophecy. Prophecy. What's God thinking when He looks down on this? What does He plan to do? Do you think our lifetimes will go on as thousands of years before us, or is He on the verge of doing something else? Does anybody know, or are we all just guessing?
As I said, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know... :pitiful:
At this point, I figure we either 1)work to make things better, 2)Jesus returns in 3 years, or
3)it's welcome to the gulag.
QuoteI've been looking for an unincorporated island where I can be :icon_king:
Need a subject? :happygrin:
PS The only time I've ever seen 0 votes for the other candidate is when there IS no other candidate. Someone like to calculate the odds of a vote count turning out 19,670 to 0?
What are the odds? In the trillions?
Haha, we could divide it up into separate but cooperating kingdoms. :thumbsup:
Well, that's what I'm getting at. I think myself, you, and many others are going "uh-oh, we're in serious trouble, we're headed for doomsday". But then I keep going back to the Dark Ages, or even Bible days - there were some awfully rough, violent, cruel times - and time marched on, and we're still here. :dontknow:
Or maybe we do go to the gulag, God is our refuge and strength, and time marches on..I just don't know.
However, "in an hour you think not...."
Alexander Solzehnitzin's way of enlightenment led through the gulag.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer's way of enlightenment led to a Nazi firing squad
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
(Rom 8:18-19)
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 13, 2012, 09:39:12 AM
Alexander Solzehnitzin's way of enlightenment led through the gulag.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer's way of enlightenment led to a Nazi firing squad
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
(Rom 8:18-19)
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
So we are to welcome the gulag because we might be the one who benefits spiritually instead of the tens of millions who suffer and die? You could just go spend a few nights in Tent City, New Jersey, instead. It would be easier and wouldn't involve the whole country.
Really, I'm just talking about elections now. If we do not investigate this election now, we will never have an honest election again.
If it can be proven that this election was stolen, it is not legitimate.
If we do not return to paper ballots, hand counting with lots of witnesses, and chain of custody, if we do not take a close look at what is going on in our election system, we will just fall further into corruption until we are beyond saving.
We also need voter identification, so that non citizens cannot vote. People need to be signed up for voting enough in advance so that they can be vetted as citizens. Dead voters and ones that have moved need to be purged from the roles.
And, we need to make sure the military vote is counted.
You know they could do all this if they wanted. They don't want to because it makes it easier to steal an election.
"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light.-Lk 16:8
"shrewdly"G5430
φρονίμως
phronimōs
fron-im'-oce
Adverb from G5429;
prudently: -
wisely.
IMO molly,
we have already had our last legitimate election.
I voted for the other guy and I'm upset too, but at the end of the day,
God puts who he will in that office. The president being a muslim does not mean that God will not use him just as he used Nebuchednezzar. We are an unrepentant(as a nation) Ninevah. :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 13, 2012, 07:47:37 AM
It's only unfair if it's untrue :o)
I'm sorry if I offend, It's not my intention to do so- I just don't think the Republican party is any better than the Democrats. IMO, The conflict in this nations soul runs much deeper.
This is only my opinion......I hope we are not judging one another based on what political party we support- that would be really Babylonian, especially choosing between these two heads of gold.
Amen!!!
CHB
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 13, 2012, 04:48:53 PM
IMO molly,
we have already had our last legitimate election.
I voted for the other guy and I'm upset too, but at the end of the day,
God puts who he will in that office. The president being a muslim does not mean that God will not use him just as he used Nebuchednezzar. We are an unrepentant(as a nation) Ninevah. :2c:
Not all of us are so, just many. Remember God stated to Lot he would spare Sodom & Gomorrah, even if each city had only 10 repentent citizens, only ten out of thousands of inhabitants is less than 1% of the total. Today the U.S. is not even close to that low a number, I'd say it is closer to 25-33%. Even if it is only 10% out of a nation of 300 million, that is 30 million people God is willing to spare the nation for, that's still a lot more than 10 people that God promised Lot.
God removed His 'lot' before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah...just as He has taken them out of the world..
and they are no part of the world. God's 'lot' is as the salt that makes more palatable.. we are taken
out of the world being 'no part' of it..in the spiritual sense..but looked after of God because of the evil
one
Father,I WANT THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME TO BE WITH ME WHERE I AM,AND TO SEE MY GLORY
Isaaih 57;1 The righteous perish,and no-one ponders it in his heart,devout men are taken away and
and no-one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk
uprightly enter into peace,they find rest as they lie in death.
BUT YOU!-COME HERE YOU SONS OF A SORCERESS!!YOU OFFSPRING OF ADULTERESS AND
PROSTITUTES. WHOM ARE YOU MOCKING? AT WHOM DO YOU SNEER AND STICK OUT YOUR
TONGUE? ARE YOU NOT A BROOD OF REBELS..THE OFFSPRING OF LIARS. YOU BURN WITH LUST
AMONG THE OAKS,AND UNDER EVERY SPREADING TREE.YOU SACRIFICE YOUR CHILDREN
IN THE RAVINES[Molech
No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in the concerns of civilian life; he seeks to please the recruiter.( the Holy Spirit)
Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
Quote from: jabcat on November 13, 2012, 08:06:01 AM
Prophecy. Prophecy. What's God thinking when He looks down on this? What does He plan to do? Do you think our lifetimes will go on as thousands of years before us, or is He on the verge of doing something else? Does anybody know, or are we all just guessing?
As I said, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know... :pitiful:
The best person to answer this question is my great great grandson.
Daj,
I don't think we can know prophecy exactly but I think some of us are seeing the writing on the wall concerning Babylon America
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2012, 04:29:28 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 13, 2012, 09:39:12 AM
Alexander Solzehnitzin's way of enlightenment led through the gulag.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer's way of enlightenment led to a Nazi firing squad
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
(Rom 8:18-19)
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
So we are to welcome the gulag because we might be the one who benefits spiritually instead of the tens of millions who suffer and die? You could just go spend a few nights in Tent City, New Jersey, instead. It would be easier and wouldn't involve the whole country.
Really, I'm just talking about elections now. If we do not investigate this election now, we will never have an honest election again.
If it can be proven that this election was stolen, it is not legitimate.
If we do not return to paper ballots, hand counting with lots of witnesses, and chain of custody, if we do not take a close look at what is going on in our election system, we will just fall further into corruption until we are beyond saving.
We also need voter identification, so that non citizens cannot vote. People need to be signed up for voting enough in advance so that they can be vetted as citizens. Dead voters and ones that have moved need to be purged from the roles.
And, we need to make sure the military vote is counted.
You know they could do all this if they wanted. They don't want to because it makes it easier to steal an election.
"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light.
-Lk 16:8
"shrewdly"
G5430
φρονίμως
phronimōs
fron-im'-oce
Adverb from G5429; prudently: - wisely.
In order to have an honest election you need to have an honest electoral process. The fix is in before the nominations are finalized. Gary Johnson was the best candidate in my opininon. He got a million votes as an independent. No TV time.
I live in NYC. I have seen the damage first hand. My perspective on that issue is probably much clearer than most. I spent my last day off as a volunteer spreading tarps on a roof torn up by the storm.
EW is right (as usual). A candidate that doesn't do what the party (rep or dem) wants won't get the nomination. Without the dem or rep nomination, non-election is a foregone conclusion. I haven't voted other than "the least worst" rep or dem since Ronald Reagan.
I am not saying any one shouldn't vote but personally I have never voted in my life and don't intend to. I don't believe we should become intangled with worldy affairs. I don't think Jesus or his disciples were concerned with government affairs. God choses who he wants to rule and we can not change one single thing.
CHB
I agree with you CHB. I would never volunteer my time or do fundraisers or even talk to people to "convert" them to a particular candidate. I only vote at presidential and sometimes then I just vote for whoever sent me the least amount of mailers or had the least amount of TV ads, etc. :laughing7:
It was something I prayed about(whether or not to vote) but since this is a republic and not a democracy my personal vote has never counted anyway. None of the people I'd like to see run for office always seem to or drop out early when they realize they have to lie and "play the game" to get the nomination.
Hey everyone...I just been watching a very interesting video on you tube. a messianic jew by the name of
Jonathan Kahn...9 harbingers of national judgement on the Isreal of God in Isaaih 9;10
gazet stone we will rebuild..a defiant unrepentant spirit[2o ton rock at ground zero]
sycamore cut down..sycamore at ground zero...araz tree..conifer tree/panisha planted as tree of hope
at ground zero.
way too many coincidences. writing on the wall for babylon usa
please look into it
I think that how a person chooses to exercise their citizen rights is highly individual and we should not judge over such issues. I am very active politically, using my citizenship rights to advance the cause of justice and equity when I can. The fact that I am a Christian and prophetic affects the way I do so, and opens many opportunities for me to bear witness to my "citizenship from above".
I do not think everyone should do as I do, or see what I see. It is an individually held freedom under the laws of our nation AND under the will of our God. Let each one walk by his own conscience and stand in freedom.
Paul used his Roman citizenship to advance the gospel and to protpect himself from persecution on at least one occasion.
The prophets of Israel and Jesus spoke out against social inequity as well as spiritual wickedness, so I do the same, as I am led of the Spirit to do so.
I would not presume to judge how anyone else chosses to walk in these things.
Quote from: CHB on November 13, 2012, 10:09:31 PM
I am not saying any one shouldn't vote but personally I have never voted in my life and don't intend to. I don't believe we should become intangled with worldy affairs. I don't think Jesus or his disciples were concerned with government affairs. God choses who he wants to rule and we can not change one single thing.
CHB
Is it a fair statement to make that in any culture, evil can only prevail when good men & women do nothing?
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2012, 12:02:03 AM
I think that how a person chooses to exercise their citizen rights is highly individual and we should not judge over such issues. I am very active politically, using my citizenship rights to advance the cause of justice and equity when I can. The fact that I am a Christian and prophetic affects the way I do so, and opens many opportunities for me to bear witness to my "citizenship from above".
I do not think everyone should do as I do, or see what I see. It is an individually held freedom under the laws of our nation AND under the will of our God. Let each one walk by his own conscience and stand in freedom.
Paul used his Roman citizenship to advance the gospel and to protpect himself from persecution on at least one occasion.
The prophets of Israel and Jesus spoke out against social inequity as well as spiritual wickedness, so I do the same, as I am led of the Spirit to do so.
I would not presume to judge how anyone else chosses to walk in these things.
I haven't voted for several years... but have developed a 3-step plan: Pray, Obey,Pay
all Scriptural-- Pray for all men, for those in authority Obey those over you, and Jesus gave us an example and reason for paying taxes.
Last week some of the tenants here asked me if I voted... I just smiled and said "Yes, I've done my duty." They ask "Absentee ballot?" I say "No, my duty according to the Bible", than I tell them about my three-step plan. One woman said "Oh, that's why you always seem so at peace, you never got hyper over either candidate". I do tell them that my greatest sorrow is that so many billions of dollars are used in the campaigning process... and I regret the many, many little tummies could be filled ... etc. etc. But, I also add "Man cannot fix man, on any level, whether it be government, the justice system, the medical industry, and especially not the religious system. Only God can fix man. Sometimes, this leads into a discussion of the really good news... which I carefully word... Yes, God has a glorious plan whereby He will bring ALL men to be with Him for all eternity. .... well this could get long... just wanted to share my three-step Scriptural plan.
Well done Goodreport.
You seem to be well reposed in the Spirit. :2thumbs:
Everything is right, HE has full knowledge of our NOW. Nothing is out of place. I have voted as an American citizen and a veteran, but I find that the more I walk in Christ that it is an error on my part, I find in my reasoning that obeying what is presented to me in this world is but my task and duty, part of my race for the prize of the high calling. To add my say, by vote is me acknowledging that I do not receive this word...Rom 13:1 Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God,
Rom 13:2 so that he who is setting himself against the authority, against God's ordinance hath resisted; and those resisting, to themselves shall receive judgment.
I do not believe I will vote again, I have said this for several years, but did not follow through, but in my heart, now, today as I saw a victory that I found to be very surprising, I must know that my Lord has His complete purpose and plan unfolding as He Will. I trust in Him, now absolutely.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2012, 04:07:58 AM
as I saw a victory that I found to be very surprising, I must know that my Lord has His complete purpose and plan unfolding as He Will.
My likely GUESS is, it's to bring our country to our knees. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on November 14, 2012, 04:17:24 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2012, 04:07:58 AM
as I saw a victory that I found to be very surprising, I must know that my Lord has His complete purpose and plan unfolding as He Will.
My likely GUESS is, it's to bring our country to our knees. :2c:
No longer bothers me "to bring our country to our knees. " My knees have been on the ground for some time, being made known, that "this country" has nothing to do with His order. The "ekklēsia" or those called out, those with an ear to hear, are the of great importance. That which is done in our country, has little to do with our walk. To be concerned about "our country" for me has become to show our double minded or as some may point out [double souled as per translation]
Joh 15:19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own property. But because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world--for that reason the world hates you.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I believe we need to truly understand our conversation(citizenship) and stand. Phi. 3:20
Quote from: Micahthe authorities existing are appointed by God,
Rom 13:2 so that he who is setting himself against the authority, against God's ordinance hath resisted;
For the 95th time....drumroll...
.we the people are the authority appointed by God in this country. We are the ones who appoint any other authorities.
:sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2012, 05:56:05 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 14, 2012, 04:17:24 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2012, 04:07:58 AM
as I saw a victory that I found to be very surprising, I must know that my Lord has His complete purpose and plan unfolding as He Will.
My likely GUESS is, it's to bring our country to our knees. :2c:
No longer bothers me "to bring our country to our knees. " My knees have been on the ground for some time, being made known, that "this country" has nothing to do with His order. The "ekklēsia" or those called out, those with an ear to hear, are the of great importance. That which is done in our country, has little to do with our walk. To be concerned about "our country" for me has become to show our double minded or as some may point out [double souled as per translation]
Joh 15:19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own property. But because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world--for that reason the world hates you.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I believe we need to truly understand our conversation(citizenship) and stand. Phi. 3:20
I'm talking about bringing people in our country to repentance, waking up, turning to God.
Quote from: jabcat on November 14, 2012, 07:15:43 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2012, 05:56:05 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 14, 2012, 04:17:24 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2012, 04:07:58 AM
as I saw a victory that I found to be very surprising, I must know that my Lord has His complete purpose and plan unfolding as He Will.
My likely GUESS is, it's to bring our country to our knees. :2c:
No longer bothers me "to bring our country to our knees. " My knees have been on the ground for some time, being made known, that "this country" has nothing to do with His order. The "ekklēsia" or those called out, those with an ear to hear, are the of great importance. That which is done in our country, has little to do with our walk. To be concerned about "our country" for me has become to show our double minded or as some may point out [double souled as per translation]
Joh 15:19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own property. But because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world--for that reason the world hates you.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I believe we need to truly understand our conversation(citizenship) and stand. Phi. 3:20
I'm talking about bringing people in our country to repentance, waking up, turning to God.
Just because you don't hear and see the Holy Spirit in your "current event offering," does not mean He is not working His plan and purpose. His, those chosen are hearing. The war is in heaven, it is a spiritual warfare, it is being fought. Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
The "called out" do not just abide in America, the American Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, just because the words in God we trust are used does not make America the bosom of true worshipers. Should America fall to socialism, communism would that mean that The Father turned His face from those who walk in the Way? Take away the straw AND MAKE MORE BRICK! Did God fail His people? I think not. :HeartThrob:
"For the 95th time....drumroll....we the people are the authority appointed by God in this country. We are the ones who appoint any other authorities." Molly someone must have a thumb on the roll.
Quote from: MicahMolly someone must have a thumb on the roll.
Yeah. The smooth criminals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFvENQBc-F8
Well said Micah7:9
The instruction of the Lord is perfect,
renewing one's life;
the testimony of the Lord is trustworthy,
making the inexperienced wise.
The precepts of the Lord are right,
making the heart glad;
the command of the Lord is radiant,
making the eyes light up.
The fear of the Lord is pure,
enduring forever;
the ordinances of the Lord are reliable
and altogether righteous.
They are more desirable than gold—
than an abundance of pure gold;
and sweeter than honey,
which comes from the honeycomb.
In addition, Your servant is warned by them;
there is great reward in keeping them.
No one said or indicated they weren't hearing or seeing wider spread issues. I live in America, we just had an election, so that's what I was referring to. I think that's pretty self-evident. I made a simple statement that I believe is true. Blessings, peace, contentment in the Lord.
Daj - you made me look it up (what you wrote)
Psalm 19:7-11
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 14, 2012, 08:22:00 PM
Daj - you made me look it up (what you wrote)
Psalm 19:7-11
Is that a good thing or a bad thing :Peace2:
It's all good. Whenever I "search the scriptures" looking for one thing, I always find treasure in something else that is there. :gimmefive:
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 14, 2012, 09:33:09 PM
It's all good. Whenever I "search the scriptures" looking for one thing, I always find treasure in something else that is there. :gimmefive:
Oh yes,,, always such lovely treasures.
Quote from: jabcat on November 14, 2012, 08:17:25 PM
No one said or indicated they weren't hearing or seeing wider spread issues. I live in America, we just had an election, so that's what I was referring to. I think that's pretty self-evident. I made a simple statement that I believe is true. Blessings, peace, contentment in the Lord.
Do you believe or think that the election was in order? Do you think or believe that the election is a reflection of godlessness in America? Do think or believe that the believers stand has been altered because of the election? Do believe that there needs to be a law put in place that allows a believe or his or her children to show their union with God? Are christians losing something because of this election? How important was the election for our walk in The Way? Peace with contentment in the Lord :HeartThrob: Love you my friend.
Do you believe or think that the election was in order?
--God's will. He works in our own stupidity and blindness.
Do you think or believe that the election is a reflection of godlessness in America?
--There are many indications, decisions made every day - individually and nationally - (sheep/goat judgment) that indicate a great falling away, IMO.
Do think or believe that the believers stand has been altered because of the election?
--I don't know how much it applies today, God was talking to the nation of Israel. But He did say if my people, will humble themselves and pray...our legal standing in Him is not affected, but our everyday lives may be. Thankfully His kingdom is not of this world, and the closer we draw to Him/trust in Him, the better. We are not of the world, but we are still in it..give unto Caesar. I think the Christians' lives were definitely affected when they were being fed to the lions by Nero. Families were separated, literally torn apart. Some tried to commit suicide to escape more quickly. Still, they just passed on from this temporariness to be forever with God - which is the believer's goal. I still doubt many of them enjoyed the process of getting there, but perhaps some of them were able to enter into a state of full trust in Him to where they were "removed" s/w from the event. I don't know.. Stephen seemed to be in another "state" of existence, but on the other hand, Jesus was in great pain and sorrow. Maybe He chose and the Father acted in such a way as for Him to feel and experience it all, as He bore our sins and transgressions. I believe there's a shield and shelter God takes us into, the cleft of the Rock, where we have peace, comfort, and protection in the storm. A very present help in time of trouble. Should we be aware, or ignore? I guess that's one of the pertinent questions. Maybe the answer is, getting more "taken away" into Him, no matter what happens. Seems to me being aware, "seeing the writing on the wall" can be a motivator to bring us closer to Him - and some to Him in the first place. :2c:
Do believe that there needs to be a law put in place that allows a believe or his or her children to show their union with God?
--I believe you already know that one, but it's a good reminder.
Are christians losing something because of this election?
--There's a point where many will lose their heads - not just from this election, from the continued direction and as things play out. I don't know if this is in our lifetime or not. I'm not that smart.
How important was the election for our walk in The Way?
--Well, I believe that was my initial, simple statement. Future results will likely bring us to our knees, turning peoples' hearts more to God. Sometimes we get what we ask for, and there are consequences. If you're personally exactly where you need to be with God, praying enough, humbled enough before Him, turned enough from your wicked ways, then it likely won't affect you personally. I (and probably some others) still have room to grow. Regardless, God's still in control. :thumbsup:
These things are only my opinion and current view.
Blessings and grace.
Oh, well, back to work.
:umnick:
Israel poised for ground assault as it calls up 6,500 troops
Israel called up 6,500 reservists today amid signs of an imminent ground assault on Gaza.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3999857/Israel-poised-for-ground-assault-as-it-calls-up-6500-troops.html
There was one point where I considered that the invading army called, the abomination which causes desolation, might be a UN army. But, at the time, I couldn't see how we could double cross Israel to allow that to happen. Needless to say, I've since changed my mind and see this as a possibiiity.
the article you posted says the UN, the EU, and the Pope(!) are calling on Israel to stop, all the while rockets are being fired into Israel. Yeah, I could see us definitely turning a blind eye now.
Definitely a possibility about the UN army... and I wouldn't be surprised at an Israeli double cross as this president has made it clear where he stands. "The sweetest sounds I've ever heard is the muslim call to prayer."
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 15, 2012, 05:07:44 AM
Definitely a possibility about the UN army... and I wouldn't be surprised at an Israeli double cross as this president has made it clear where he stands. "The sweetest sounds I've ever heard is the muslim call to prayer."
"the future does not belong to those who would slander the prophet Mohammed". B. Hussein Obama speech at the UN, 2012.
Yeah, I'll make a prophecy that we the people of America are going to have
one heckuva ride from this day forward. :Pray:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
--Mat 24
25 Behold, I have told you before.
--Mat 24
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 9
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
--Dan 11
:umnick:
Israel launched a series of blistering airstrikes Wednesday on what it says are terrorist targets in Gaza, killing the chief of Hamas' military wing and at least eight others, Israeli and Palestinian officials said.
As the tensions ratcheted up, the U.N. Security Council held an emergency meeting Wednesday evening.
Palestinian leaders immediately condemned the attacks as an escalation, with President Mahmoud Abbas calling for an emergency session of the Council of the League of Arab States to discuss what he called Israeli "aggression," the Egyptian state news agency MENA reported.
Hamas' military wing warned that Israelis had opened "the gates of hell on themselves" with the move.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/14/world/meast/gaza-israel-strike/index.html
To consider or accept the thinking that the Israel in our current news has any value in our thinking as the chosen people is quite immature. Israel: he will rule as God. This is TRUE. Whether the conflict in the middle east with the nation of Israel and say Iran grows to a war and conflict has little to do with our walk in/and with Christ. America is quite insignificant in the whole of things, but it is the believers, the called out, the ekklēsia, they are hearing and listening. Todays current events have little to do with the Kingdom of God/heaven that Jesus preached and passed on to his disciples and those who have ears to hear.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 15, 2012, 06:01:12 AM
To consider or accept the thinking that the Israel in our current news has any value in our thinking as the chosen people is quite immature. America is quite insignificant in the whole of things,
I guess that's
your opinion my brother? :wink3: (you might be right, thanks for the input - worth considering in the whole scheme of things :thumbsup:)
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 15, 2012, 05:20:02 AM
Yeah, I'll make a prophecy that we the people of America are going to have
one heckuva ride from this day forward. :Pray:
The people of America are going to experience progressively harder strokes from the Lord, but not because they voted Barack Obama into the presidency.
Only about 51 percent of the people did that.
Remember Abraham and God and their little negotiation?
"If there are 10 righteous I will save the city".
If America goes down, it will be because of the unrighteousness of the people and the lack of intercessors.
I refuse to yield to doomsayers (not calling you one of those Ded :o), They have been prophesying for the last century. Eventually God will crack this vessel in order to exalt His glory and whoever happens to be crowing at that moment will glorify themselves as prophets.
I pray for the righteous to rise.
If a vote for Mitt was a vote for righteousness(I don't believ that tho), 49 percent of the country got it right. The house of representatives is still Republican majority. The entire heartland of America was red states. America is not New York, Hollywood and Washington.
PEOPLE! Get your news from the Holy Spirit! Keep praying for revival. Keep praying that the Lord will raise up the righteous. Keep praying for those who are in authority, that we may live a peaceful life and share the gospel. If we fall, let it not be to fear, confusion and the politics of man.
Exo 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
Since the day that I brought forth my people out of the land of Egypt I chose no city among all the tribes of Israel to build an house in, that my name might be there; neither chose I any man to be a ruler over my people Israel: But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.
(2Ch 6:5-6)
Barack Obama rules at the pleasure of God Almighty. Let's pray for righteousness to arise in the people. For God to arise in His tabernacle of living stones.
:2c:
Even IF The Sky IS Falling
Your deadlines have all come and past
Will the prophet of doom repent at last?
I would not touch the Lord's anointed
I just don't see you so appointed
I know that God is judging sin
But we go forth weeping
Then come back in
Carrying our sheaves rejoicing
To edify is our great calling
Even IF the sky IS falling
Come trial or persecution
Or end time tribulation
We who wait upon the Lord
Are hovering to hear His word
A word in season to the weary one
Our work has really just begun
Though it be the eleventh hour
We work within the Spirit's power
Reconciling men to God
Good News! The beautiful feet are shod.
And knowing the hour indeed is late
Upon the roof we gladly wait
Not seeking to save our life below
Not hiding stores, afraid to show
Redemption draws near!
Lets be of good cheer!
Let not your hearts be troubled
Though trial and temptation soon be doubled
The fate of waiting husbandmen
Is ours and has always been
To share the cross our Savior bore
Loving all those Jesus died for
If we walk within the secret place
Beneath the shadow of His wings
Men will see His glory in our face
And wonder at our love and peace and joy
And grace
Even in our sufferings
Yea, sooner or later the towers fall
And the walls collapse as trumpets call
But as you run to announce your part
Be sure the horse is before the cart
Go, gather those who are suffering
And minister to them and bring
A glass of water to the ones who thirst
Returning love when by them cursed
Then great is your reward in heaven
But shed you now this grievous leaven
Your words went out for all to hear
And the things you spoke did not appear.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 15, 2012, 06:08:25 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 15, 2012, 05:20:02 AM
Yeah, I'll make a prophecy that we the people of America are going to have
one heckuva ride from this day forward. :Pray:
The people of America are going to experience progressively harder strokes from the Lord, but not because they voted Barack Obama into the presidency.
If America goes down, it will be because of the unrighteousness of the people and the lack of intercessors.
God is in control. As I posted earlier, there are many indicators - daily - with the election
IMO being just one of them. However, for certain things to happen (not saying I know all of God's plans at all) it seems certain pieces of the puzzle would be first put in place. Thus one of MY interests in the election. Click, click, click..dominoes falling? Must be, because God places the powers in authority that be. However, if this is just one more thing in a long line yet to come, I'll be glad to be proved wrong. :) I also have some resistance to doomsdaying, but I also believe we may need to be aware, see writing if it's on the wall. Maybe some people are hearing from God on this, and are watchmen at the wall? Or, maybe this current stuff is just little scribbles on the wall, I don't know. Time tells. In the meantime, trust and look to God - our very present help in times of trouble. He delivers, protects, and is victorious. :thumbsup:
Bottom line, WHATEVER happens, we can rest in Him. (shrugging shoulders) so should we be aware of our surroundings, or not? I think we should be, while not being controlled, frightened, or freaking about them. I do remember a proverb that says something like "a wise man sees trouble coming and makes provision for it". I also believe it has something to say about the converse. I'll need to look it up. Our TRUE provision though is in the Lord.
Here it is from Proverbs 23; A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.
Again, our refuge and protection is in the Lord. Does that mean for example, if we were to see a hostile army marching down the street, do we attempt to get out of the way of it, or choose to stand right in front of it quoting "the Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want..."? Seriously, what do you guys think about this? Does trusting the Lord mean throw all caution to the wind? I think of the anecdote, "the Lord will take care of me", while I'm standing with my eyes closed in the middle of the freeway. Obviously, it seems we're all to follow the Lord's leading, and as your song says John, rejoice and help along the way. But to all, are there thoughts on a sort of "balance" vs. "I don't know and I don't care"? (I just thought of a couple of examples; one, Paul let out of the city in a basket in secret because they were seeking to harm him. Also, Jesus slipping out of the midst of those wanting to harm Him..) Would Stephen have escaped if he could, but since he was caught, he stood firm and trusted in the Lord?
I don't have the answers to all this, it's things I wonder about...me, thank God I have some earthly means to protect my home and family - to an extent. I realize in the end it's up to God, and if it's His time to take us, then that's the way it will be. And all the while, we're to look to Him for the ultimate protection and peace. If anyone lives in a dangerous area, do you lock your doors at night, or leave them open? :dontknow: and :Peace2:
and so I just go to a friend's facebook page and the first thing i see posted is this;
Psalm 121:7-8 The LORD will keep you from all harm— he will watch over your life; the LORD will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.
What do you think that LITERALLY and fully means? Can it possibly mean that God's children will never be involved in heartache, loss, injury? Again, I think of the early Christians being eaten by lions. So that calls to me to be perhaps a deeper meaning..all the things we consider harm, are not really harm? Because it's all spiritual, i.e., even if this body is torn to bits, our spirit is in His hands and the temporal fades in comparison to the real and the "eternal"? Through it all, His peace that passes all understanding comforts us - peace that the world doesn't know nor can take away? Thoughts?
You know this is related to seatbelts and motorcycle helmets.
Do you buckle up in the car and not wear a helmet when riding or do you trust the Lord that only what he allows to happen to you will happen?
To me, it's like the devil telling Jesus to jump off the mountain cuz God would catch him.
Without protective devices, the results are vastly worse.
The childrens crusade in the middle ages was a perfect example of trusting in the Lord and getting slaughtered. The reason? God never told them to do such a thing.
When God miraculously intervenes for protection, it's either because of a direct order from him or the person is helpless.
The first would be like when Egypt was drowned in the red sea chasing the isrealites.
The second would be like Daniel thrown into the lions den or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego being thrown into the furnace.
All escaped unharmed.David would have been a fool to go up against Goliath without a weapon and he depended on God to guide his hand so the weapon was effective. Also, if he had worn Saul's armor he probably would have been unable to use his sling properly.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 15, 2012, 06:08:25 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 15, 2012, 05:20:02 AM
Yeah, I'll make a prophecy that we the people of America are going to have
one heckuva ride from this day forward. :Pray:
The people of America are going to experience progressively harder strokes from the Lord, but not because they voted Barack Obama into the presidency.
Only about 51 percent of the people did that.
Remember Abraham and God and their little negotiation?
"If there are 10 righteous I will save the city".
If America goes down, it will be because of the unrighteousness of the people and the lack of intercessors.
I refuse to yield to doomsayers (not calling you one of those Ded :o), They have been prophesying for the last century. Eventually God will crack this vessel in order to exalt His glory and whoever happens to be crowing at that moment will glorify themselves as prophets.
I pray for the righteous to rise.
If a vote for Mitt was a vote for righteousness(I don't believ that tho), 49 percent of the country got it right. The house of representatives is still Republican majority. The entire heartland of America was red states. America is not New York, Hollywood and Washington.
PEOPLE! Get your news from the Holy Spirit! Keep praying for revival. Keep praying that the Lord will raise up the righteous. Keep praying for those who are in authority, that we may live a peaceful life and share the gospel. If we fall, let it not be to fear, confusion and the politics of man.
Exo 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
Since the day that I brought forth my people out of the land of Egypt I chose no city among all the tribes of Israel to build an house in, that my name might be there; neither chose I any man to be a ruler over my people Israel: But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.
(2Ch 6:5-6)
Barack Obama rules at the pleasure of God Almighty. Let's pray for righteousness to arise in the people. For God to arise in His tabernacle of living stones.
:2c:
Even IF The Sky IS Falling
Your deadlines have all come and past
Will the prophet of doom repent at last?
I would not touch the Lord's anointed
I just don't see you so appointed
I know that God is judging sin
But we go forth weeping
Then come back in
Carrying our sheaves rejoicing
To edify is our great calling
Even IF the sky IS falling
Come trial or persecution
Or end time tribulation
We who wait upon the Lord
Are hovering to hear His word
A word in season to the weary one
Our work has really just begun
Though it be the eleventh hour
We work within the Spirit's power
Reconciling men to God
Good News! The beautiful feet are shod.
And knowing the hour indeed is late
Upon the roof we gladly wait
Not seeking to save our life below
Not hiding stores, afraid to show
Redemption draws near!
Lets be of good cheer!
Let not your hearts be troubled
Though trial and temptation soon be doubled
The fate of waiting husbandmen
Is ours and has always been
To share the cross our Savior bore
Loving all those Jesus died for
If we walk within the secret place
Beneath the shadow of His wings
Men will see His glory in our face
And wonder at our love and peace and joy
And grace
Even in our sufferings
Yea, sooner or later the towers fall
And the walls collapse as trumpets call
But as you run to announce your part
Be sure the horse is before the cart
Go, gather those who are suffering
And minister to them and bring
A glass of water to the ones who thirst
Returning love when by them cursed
Then great is your reward in heaven
But shed you now this grievous leaven
Your words went out for all to hear
And the things you spoke did not appear.
The sky is not falling ALL is in order. Fear not. Mat 10:31 be not therefore afraid, than many sparrows ye are better.
Too much prophecy by our conception, that is what is fearful.
I wasn't prophecying out of fear. I'm simply tired of the name of Jesus being mocked, cursed, and laughed at. You just don't hear that in "non-christian" countries... and you know what happens to someone that mocks, curses or laughs at the name of Allah. I guess because Christians are supposed to forgive and muslims are supposed to behead.
[attachment deleted by admin]
More Atlas Shrugging
How do you like that healthcare bill now?
You'd have great union healthcare, if only you had a job..
:umnick:
Hostess threatens to liquidate company if union strike continues
Workers have until 5 p.m. Thursday to return to job
The move would result in the layoffs of 18,000 workers from the bankrupt company.
Read more: http://www.wmtw.com/news/maine/York-County/Hostess-threatens-to-liquidate-company-if-union-strike-continues/-/9284124/17408772/-/yd9it1z/-/index.html#ixzz2CIEg14aj
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 15, 2012, 07:36:58 AM
I wasn't prophecying out of fear. I'm simply tired of the name of Jesus being mocked, cursed, and laughed at. You just don't hear that in "non-christian" countries... and you know what happens to someone that mocks, curses or laughs at the name of Allah. I guess because Christians are supposed to forgive and muslims are supposed to behead.
Joh 15:18 If the world hates you, remember that it has first had me as the fixed object of its hatred.
Joh 15:19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own property. But because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world--for that reason the world hates you.
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2012, 02:24:46 PM
More Atlas Shrugging
How do you like that healthcare bill now?
You'd have great union healthcare, if only you had a job..
:umnick:
Hostess threatens to liquidate company if union strike continues
Workers have until 5 p.m. Thursday to return to job
The move would result in the layoffs of 18,000 workers from the bankrupt company.
Read more: http://www.wmtw.com/news/maine/York-County/Hostess-threatens-to-liquidate-company-if-union-strike-continues/-/9284124/17408772/-/yd9it1z/-/index.html#ixzz2CIEg14aj
Isn't it all part of our Walk. I know and understand what you are saying Molly, but is it our place to change anything or are we to accept persecution and give Him the glory?
Php 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Php 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
I can't see standing idly by while someone takes a wrecking ball to my country, Micah.
I don't think Christ means us to be passive, but to be active in whatever way we can.
He was not passive. He healed, he preached, he castigated the Pharisees to their faces.
Why do you think they hated him? The masses loved him until they were brainwashed by the Pharisees. The masses will be coming to us for help soon. We better be prepared.
I was born the first time in the U.S.A. I was born the second time in the heavenlies. This is no longer my country, I am a foreigner, a stranger in a strange land, an alien that looks forward to the day I can go to my true home.
In the Garden, Peter slashed off the ear of Malthus and Jesus immediately told him to offer no resistance.
I only care about this country because of my fellow alien countrymen living here.
Israel's Iron Dome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djp_kdgppLo
Care about THIS.
Iron Dome at work today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bTjNRikioE
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2012, 02:53:42 PM
I can't see standing idly by while someone takes a wrecking ball to my country, Micah.
I can't see standing idly by means us to be passive, but to be active in whatever way we can.
He was not passive. He healed, he preached, he castigated the Pharisees to their faces.
Why do you think they hated him? The masses loved him until they were brainwashed by the Pharisees. The masses will be coming to us for help soon. We better be prepared.
Meaning no offence, I believe our largest obstacle in our walk is , "
I can't see standing idly by ...."
"
I can't see standing idly by ...." It's difficult for me to grasp the idea that "I" can't help, Jesus said He did nothing of his own, how am "I" supposed to be able to do anything? This a powerful strength should "I" rest in it's comfort. Psa 46:10 Desist, and know that I am God, I am exalted among nations, I am exalted in the earth.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 15, 2012, 03:48:22 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2012, 02:53:42 PM
I can't see standing idly by while someone takes a wrecking ball to my country, Micah.
I can't see standing idly by means us to be passive, but to be active in whatever way we can.
He was not passive. He healed, he preached, he castigated the Pharisees to their faces.
Why do you think they hated him? The masses loved him until they were brainwashed by the Pharisees. The masses will be coming to us for help soon. We better be prepared.
Meaning no offence, I believe our largest obstacle in our walk is , "I can't see standing idly by ...."
"I can't see standing idly by ...." It's difficult for me to grasp the idea that "I" can't help, Jesus said He did nothing of his own, how am "I" supposed to be able to do anything? This a powerful strength should "I" rest in it's comfort. Psa 46:10 Desist, and know that I am God, I am exalted among nations, I am exalted in the earth.
Micah you know what I mean. Don't pretend you don't. We are all given gifts by God. It is our place to use them profitably as servants of God.
Maybe your gift is to sit still and pray. Maybe my gift is to cook the best chili in the western world. Who knows? But we are to use whatever gifts we were given by the Master to His Glory.
Molly, Micah,
You're both right.
We are servants of the Lord high. "In him we live and move and breathe and have our being."
So the Holy Soirit tells one to be active and be political.
He tells another to be passive and pray.
In the end, the fix is in. God will have rule whom HE chooses and tells us that the rulers of men mean nothing when God is ruling in our hearts. :Peace2:
I like it!
In other words, Don't judge another man's servant.
:friendstu:
Sounds like scripture to me! :dsunny:
Just because we have the same master it doesn't mean we have all been given the same instructions
(except Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself - we all get those instructions) :laughing7:
Why is Psalm 83 ringing in my ears?
:umnick:
Report: Hamas rule out truce with Israel
By JPOST.COM STAFF
11/15/2012 17:10
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=292054
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 15, 2012, 05:20:02 AM
Yeah, I'll make a prophecy that we the people of America are going to have
one heckuva ride from this day forward. :Pray:
......resulting from the natural metamorphises of moving from a state of Capitalism>Socialism>Communism. I believe the generation that sees the opening week of Daniel's 70th week, as detailed in the book of Revelation, will not be a generation in which we will want to be living. All the symbols relating to despotic control of the world's economies in Revelation, will already have been in place & initiated many years before the 70th week begins. Death panels of the healthcare systems, food rationing, energy rationing, and control of monetary systems will be so systemic that those of us alive today would scarcely recognize the world system that will exist 50 years from now.
Quote from: jabcat on November 15, 2012, 06:49:34 AM
and so I just go to a friend's facebook page and the first thing i see posted is this;
Psalm 121:7-8 The LORD will keep you from all harm— he will watch over your life; the LORD will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.
What do you think that LITERALLY and fully means? Can it possibly mean that God's children will never be involved in heartache, loss, injury? Again, I think of the early Christians being eaten by lions. So that calls to me to be perhaps a deeper meaning..all the things we consider harm, are not really harm? Because it's all spiritual, i.e., even if this body is torn to bits, our spirit is in His hands and the temporal fades in comparison to the real and the "eternal"? Through it all, His peace that passes all understanding comforts us - peace that the world doesn't know nor can take away? Thoughts?
I began my day (6 am) by looking at the date 11/15/12 and in it I saw Psalm 111:5 AMP He has given food/provision to those who reverently/worshipfully fear Him...He will remember His covenant forever. Immediately thought of Seek first the kingdom and all else will be provided (Matt 6:33) and remembered your sharing Psalm 121:7-8 ...
I've been working on my annual letter to family, friends, fellowshippers (and 1-2 foes) and decided on the theme Seek first the kingdom of God and have been stalled a few times... now I realize God wanted me to check Psalm 121 ... oh my the word "keep" (Hebrew shamar is used over 400 times and has a wealth of Scriptural truths).
Ps 121 has shamar 5 x's and depending on the version used shamar is translated keep, preserve, guard... and shamar is translated in KJV "watchman" 8 times!!!!
well, this could get long. I just "love" the way in which the Spirit leads us, guides us into all truth through our brothers and sisters... thanks Jabcat for sharing.
I "love" the Psalms... and will be studying, meditating, praying, praising God for Ps 121
Psalm 121 assures me that God is 'PROVIDING for", watching all my coming and all my going
There was once a psychologist that was not very successful. He tried all the latest techniques but still had a "success rate of about 10%, just slightly less than average. He became despondent. Never much of a religious man he heard about a Rabbi that was having great success after just one visit. He went to the Rabbi and asked him what it was he told people.
The Rabbi replied, "I tell them to get an updated easy to read version of Psalms and proverbs and then to read 5 chapters of Psalms a day and one chapter of proverbs. This gets them through All of Psalms and Proverbs in one month. I've never had anyone come back for more help after 2 months of this program."
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 15, 2012, 09:14:25 PM
There was once a psychologist that was not very successful. He tried all the latest techniques but still had a "success rate of about 10%, just slightly less than average. He became despondent. Never much of a religious man he heard about a Rabbi that was having great success after just one visit. He went to the Rabbi and asked him what it was he told people.
The Rabbi replied, "I tell them to get an updated easy to read version of Psalms and proverbs and then to read 5 chapters of Psalms a day and one chapter of proverbs. This gets them through All of Psalms and Proverbs in one month. I've never had anyone come back for more help after 2 months of this program."
Oh my... and I thought I devised that plan whereby I could test/try "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" at a time (1980-81) when I was a full-time business instructor, plus other community projects and just did not have time to study indepth, etc. so I started a notebook and read 5 Psalms, 1 Prov a day, copied one verse that spoke to my hunger and thirst for truth. Perfect.... 150 Psalms, 31 Proverbs... I actually did this for almost 2 years and had accumulated at least 10 notebooks... I did read and meditate on other books When I had time, I read John's gospel.... over and over... and Isaiah....
Quote from: Paul L on November 15, 2012, 07:05:41 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 15, 2012, 05:20:02 AM
Yeah, I'll make a prophecy that we the people of America are going to have
one heckuva ride from this day forward. :Pray:
......resulting from the natural metamorphises of moving from a state of Capitalism>Socialism>Communism. I believe the generation that sees the opening week of Daniel's 70th week, as detailed in the book of Revelation, will not be a generation in which we will want to be living. All the symbols relating to despotic control of the world's economies in Revelation, will already have been in place & initiated many years before the 70th week begins. Death panels of the healthcare systems, food rationing, energy rationing, and control of monetary systems will be so systemic that those of us alive today would scarcely recognize the world system that will exist 50 years from now.
I'm afraid the time of Jacob's trouble may be upon us. The ME is a seething cauldron of muslim brotherhood now, thanks to O's foreign policy, and a match was just lit. :dunno2:
Good Report - I knew you didn't get your spiritual knowledge from watching Gilligans Island. :thumbsup: :Peace2: Amen.
:umnick:
Israeli Forces 'Move Toward Gaza Border'
Israel has reportedly begun moving troops toward the Gaza border and has authorised the call-up of up to 30,000 reservists.
http://news.sky.com/story/1011672/israeli-forces-move-toward-gaza-border
Air Raid Sirens Go Off In Tel Aviv As Missiles Fall On Outskirts Of The City
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/air-raid-sirens-going-off-in-tel-aviv-as-missiles-fall-just-south-of-the-city-2012-11#ixzz2CJjaejdk
Oh, Ariel, Ariel,
town where David encamped!
Year by year, let the festivals come around—
2 but I will oppress Ariel.
There will be mourning and lamentation;
she will be like an Ariel to me.
3 I will surround you like a wall,
and I will lay a siege against you with assault towers,
and I will raise up siegeworks against you.
4 You will be brought down;
from the ground you will speak;
from low in the dust your speech will come.
Your voice will be like a ghost's from the earth;
from the dust your words will whisper.
5 But your many enemies will be like fine dust,
the terrible horde like passing chaff.
Suddenly, in an instant, 6 the Lord of heavenly forces will come to you with thunder, earthquake, and a mighty voice,
with whirlwind, tempest, and flames of devouring fire.
7 The horde of nations fighting against Ariel,
and all who make war on her and her fortress and besiege her,
will be like a dream, a vision of the night.
8 It will be like when a hungry person dreams of eating
but wakes up and the mouth is empty.
Or when a thirsty person dreams of drinking
but wakes up and has a dry throat.
So will it be for all the horde of nations
who fight against Mount Zion.
9 Be shocked and stunned;
blind yourselves; be blind!
Be drunk, but not on wine;
stagger, but not on account of beer!
10 The Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep sleep,
and has shut your eyes, you prophets,
and covered your heads, you seers.
11 This entire vision has become for you like the words of a sealed scroll. When they give it to one who can read, saying, "Read this," that one will say, "I can't, because it's sealed." 12 And when the scroll is given to one who can't read, saying, "Read this," that one will say, "I can't read."
--Isa 29
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2012, 09:51:20 PM
:umnick:
Israeli Forces 'Move Toward Gaza Border'
Israel has reportedly begun moving troops toward the Gaza border and has authorised the call-up of up to 30,000 reservists.
This will be just a skirmish, wait till the day you see them move into Lebanon & Syria; maybe someday into Turkey as well, these coming conflicts will not be minor skirmishes, but Israel will win them as well.
Ariel- "Lioness of El", a name for Jerusalem(NASEC, Word Study Concordance, BDB)
They came out, they and all their armies with them, as many people as the sand that is on the seashore, with very many horses and chariots. So all of these kings having agreed to meet, came and encamped together at the waters of Merom, to fight against Israel. Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid because of them, for tomorrow at this time I will deliver all of them slain before Israel; you shall hamstring their horses and burn their chariots with fire."
(Jos 11:4-6)
Then there came some that told Jehoshaphat, saying, There cometh a great multitude against thee from beyond the sea on this side Syria; and, behold, they be in Hazazontamar, which is Engedi. And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah. And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.............. Then upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph, came the Spirit of the LORD in the midst of the congregation; And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the LORD unto you, Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God's. To morrow go ye down against them: behold, they come up by the cliff of Ziz; and ye shall find them at the end of the brook, before the wilderness of Jeruel. Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you.
(2Ch 20:2-4......14-17)
Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and spake, saying, Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria: Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you out of his hand: Neither let Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD, saying, The LORD will surely deliver us, and this city shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria. ........So the servants of king Hezekiah came to Isaiah. And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say to your master, Thus saith the LORD, Be not afraid of the words which thou hast heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me. Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land. (2Ki 18:28-30.....19:5-7)
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
(2Th 2:3-4)
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(Rev 13:4-8)
Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised, In the city of our God, His holy mountain. Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth, Is Mount Zion in the far north, The city of the great King. God, in her palaces, Has made Himself known as a stronghold. For, lo, the kings assembled themselves, They passed by together. They saw it, then they were amazed; They were terrified, they fled in alarm. Panic seized them there, Anguish, as of a woman in childbirth. With the east wind You break the ships of Tarshish. As we have heard, so have we seen In the city of the LORD of hosts, in the city of our God; God will establish her forever. Selah.
(Psa 48:1-8)
If I forget you, O Jerusalem, may my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth and my right hand lose its skill
:coffee2:
Iran, Egypt call each other 'strategic allies'
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/08/30/259050/iran-egypt-call-each-other-key-allies/
Muslim Brotherhood Mobilizes for Hamas
November 15, 2012 By Ryan Mauro
Israel has finally struck back against the terrorist enclave of Gaza after having 120 rockets fired at it since Saturday and over 700 this year alone. For now, the Obama administration is rhetorically supporting Israel, but the Muslim Brotherhood government in Egypt is doubling down on its support for Hamas, Gaza's ruling terrorist organization, and has withdrawn its ambassador to Israel.
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/ryan-mauro/muslim-brotherhood-mobilizes-for-hamas/
The muslim brotherhood has been sent several millions of dollars by our government.
:coffee2:
Commanders Prepare Troops for Ground Invasion
IDF troops gather outside Gaza, begin preparing for ground invasion.
By Maayana Miskin
First Publish: 11/16/2012, 11:38 AM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162158#.UKY3IOQ0WSo
This has to be supernatural.
Otherwise, why wouldn't all those huge Muslim countries, whose kings are richer than Croesus, find a way to take in their palestinian brothers and give them a home among their own and let Israel have the gaza and live in peace?
They've had 65 years to do it.
rockets hit on outskirts of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem [they never had the range of Jerusalem before].
Israeli tanks lining up on border with Gaza.
Israel is fed up. To the people doing this, 'we will hunt you down.'
Oil rig on fire in gulf off coast of LA.
8 Without having seen Him, you love Him; though you do not [even] now see Him, you believe in Him and exult and thrill with inexpressible and glorious (triumphant, heavenly) joy.
9 [At the same time] you receive the result (outcome, consummation) of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
10 The prophets, who prophesied of the grace (divine blessing) which was intended for you, searched and inquired earnestly about this salvation.
11 They sought [to find out] to whom or when this was to come which the Spirit of Christ working within them was indicating when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that should follow [them].
12 It was then disclosed to them that the services they were rendering were not meant for themselves and their period of time, but for you. [It is these very] things which have now already been made known plainly to you by those who preached the good news (the Gospel) to you by the [same] Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Into these things [the very] angels long to look!
13 So brace up your minds; be sober (circumspect, morally alert); set your hope wholly and unchangeably on the grace (divine favor) that is coming to you when Jesus Christ (the Messiah) is revealed.
--1 Peter 1
Daniel rises in the end of days to receive his 'all lot ted inheritance...Dan 12;13
Gabriel and Michael come to Daniel to make him understand. the saints were overcome[that
no flesh boast] thrones set in place... Court seated.......Daniels prayer Dan 9 Our sins and
the iniquities of our fathers have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn
[spiritual Jerusalem also/christians] we do not make request of you because of our righteousness..
BUT BECAUSE OF YOUR GREAT MERCY[70 yrs 1948-2018] anoint most holy..daniels vision
of Christ [Dan 10;5-12 see Rev 1;12-16]..........
He said.....Daniel,you who are highly esteemed,consider carefully the words I am about to speak
to you....AND STAND UP..........
Dan 12 AT THAT TIME MICHAEL WILL STAND UP..there will be a time of great distress........
BUT AT THAT TIME YOUR PEOPLE WILL BE DELIVERED[everyones whose name found written in book/
of mercy/life/Christ]
and then at the end of days you will rise/stand up to receive your all lot ted inheritance
Isreal and spiritual Isreal do not call on God because they are righteous or have done and obeyed Him
they Call on God because ofHis Great Mercy and the scorn the world has for Him and His Name.
Zechariah 9;6 and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines[uncircumcized] Philistine/Palestine
see note on Genesis 10;14 at one time the land of Canaan was called palestine
even now..rend your hearts and not your garments[circumcize your heart]
you see..the Lord God purposely chose the weak and foolish of this world..in order to put to shame
the strong and wise in their eyes....and does not despise the weak/foolish and lowly[the saints
were overcome]..then the court sit..and the saints were given the kingdom.....
sacrifice and offering I did not want..but in mercy was my delight
Hebrews 10;26 if we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of
the truth..no sacrifice for sins is left[sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire..but in Mercy was thou
delight v 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume
the enemies of God.[what I am saying is that when the kingdom of darkness overcomes the
saints[salt of earth] as testified in Dan ch 7 the Ancient of Days takes His seat..........
AND A RIVER OF FIRE WAS COMING OUT FROM BEFORE HIM[then I ontinued to watch becuz
of the boastful words the horn was speaking[satan overcoming the saints and boasting/not realizing
God chose the weak[flesh man] and foolish..to put to shame the strong[satn/demons]......then
one like a son of man[who had been put to death like all in Adam] was given authority/glory
sovereign power[mercy over judgement]
satan himself causes fire to come down from heaven...he thinks to cause God to judge man worthy
of eternal burning..bad mistake...the fire that comes down from heaven as God's judgement..
is mercy to the lowly despised and weak/all in Adam..but consumes all enemies/adversaries/tares
demons/satan/beast/false prophet[profit] of satan
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2012, 03:41:33 PM
Israel's Iron Dome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djp_kdgppLo
Care about THIS.
Iron Dome at work today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bTjNRikioE
I love that weapon, praise God. If that weapon did not exist the death toll for Israel would be higher than Palestines. So it can't be a numbers game.
I think these rumours of wars are spurred on by the false prophets, so that the devil can bring ww3 on his time table, thus giving glory to false prophets such as the Mayans. My hope is that this skirmish will end soon, because such a war can trigger the tensions that exist between several countries right now, that are brewing for war.
REPORT: Iran's Revolutionary Guards overseeing missile fire
Aiding jihadist groups as they launch projectiles into Jewish state
http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/report-irans-revolutionary-guards-overseeing-missile-fire/
General Petraeus questioned by Congress
by Molly
You have the General in the room with you for the day, and what do you ask?
We already know that we were lied to for two weeks about a stupid youtube video that had nothing to do with the attack even though we were told repeatedly that it did. We already know the attacks at both safe houses were planned and co-ordinated. We already know that the president lied about the attack not being a terrorist attack. That he lied on tv, that he lied at the UN, that he lied to the parents of the dead men, that he lied in the second debate. Romney had him on the ropes before he ran behind Candy Crowley's skirts.
So, again, you have the General at your disposal for hours and what do you ask?
You ask, what was the Ambassador doing at a safe house on 9/11 without any protection? You ask, what was the Ambassador doing in Benghazi at all? You ask, who was there? How did it unfold step by step? Were the navy seals at the other safe house told to stand down? By whom? Why? Who sent the unarmed drone? Why was it unarmed? Did the president and others watch the attack unfold on closed circuit tv for 7 hours and do nothing? What orders did he give? To whom? If he ordered them to send help, why was no help of any kind sent?
But, the media and the congress treat the American people as though they have an attention span of 10 minutes, worse, as though they have the cognitive development of an 8 month old child. When a baby of a certain age knocks his cup off the high chair, he forgets he had a cup. Out of sight, out of mind. So the drum beat is on one thing in the hopes that you will forget the rest: How early did they know it was a terrorist attack and had nothing to do with a silly video? Answer from any sane person: immediately. Answer from them: there was confusion, the fog of war. But they are the ones creating the fog, not war. And four Americans remain dead with no inquiry.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. Psa 82
ROUBINI: Perfect Storm Or Not, 2013 Looks Awful
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/roubini-perfect-2013-2012-11#ixzz2CT7R5JiV
Armenian Genocide of 1915: An Overview
By JOHN KIFNER
On the eve of World War I, there were two million Armenians in the declining Ottoman Empire. By 1922, there were fewer than 400,000. The others — some 1.5 million — were killed in what historians consider a genocide.
As David Fromkin put it in his widely praised history of World War I and its aftermath, "A Peace to End All Peace": "Rape and beating were commonplace. Those who were not killed at once were driven through mountains and deserts without food, drink or shelter. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians eventually succumbed or were killed ."
The man who invented the word "genocide"— Raphael Lemkin, a lawyer of Polish-Jewish origin — was moved to investigate the attempt to eliminate an entire people by accounts of the massacres of Armenians. He did not, however, coin the word until 1943, applying it to Nazi Germany and the Jews in a book published a year later, "Axis Rule in Occupied Europe."
But to Turks, what happened in 1915 was, at most, just one more messy piece of a very messy war that spelled the end of a once-powerful empire. They reject the conclusions of historians and the term genocide, saying there was no premeditation in the deaths, no systematic attempt to destroy a people. Indeed, in Turkey today it remains a crime — "insulting Turkishness" — to even raise the issue of what happened to the Armenians.
In the United States, a powerful Armenian community centered in Los Angeles has been pressing for years for Congress to condemn the Armenian genocide. Turkey, which cut military ties to France over a similar action, has reacted with angry threats. A bill to that effect nearly passed in the fall of 2007, gaining a majority of co-sponsors and passing a committee vote. But the Bush administration, noting that Turkey is a critical ally — more than 70 per cent of the military air supplies for Iraq go through the Incirlik airbase there — pressed for the bill to be withdrawn, and it was.
The roots of the genocide lie in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
The empire's ruler was also the caliph, or leader of the Islamic community. Minority religious communities, like the Christian Armenians, were allowed to maintain their religious, social and legal structures, but were often subject to extra taxes or other measures.
Concentrated largely in eastern Anatolia, many of them merchants and industrialists, Armenians, historians say, appeared markedly better off in many ways than their Turkish neighbors, largely small peasants or ill-paid government functionaries and soldiers.
At the turn of the 20th Century, the once far-flung Ottoman empire was crumbling at the edges, beset by revolts among Christian subjects to the north — vast swaths of territory were lost in the Balkan Wars of 1912-13 — and the subject of coffee house grumbling among Arab nationalist intellectuals in Damascus and elsewhere.
The Young Turk movement of ambitious, discontented junior army officers seized power in 1908, determined to modernize, strengthen and "Turkify" the empire. They were led by what became an all-powerful triumvirate sometimes referred to as the Three Pashas.
In March of 1914, the Young Turks entered World War I on the side of Germany. They attacked to the east, hoping to capture the city of Baku in what would be a disastrous campaign against Russian forces in the Caucuses. They were soundly defeated at the battle of Sarikemish.
Armenians in the area were blamed for siding with the Russians and the Young Turks began a campaign to portray the Armenians as a kind of fifth column, a threat to the state. Indeed, there were Armenian nationalists who acted as guerrillas and cooperated with the Russians. They briefly seized the city of Van in the spring of 1915.
Armenians mark the date April 24, 1915, when several hundred Armenian intellectuals were rounded up, arrested and later executed as the start of the Armenian genocide and it is generally said to have extended to 1917. However, there were also massacres of Armenians in 1894, 1895, 1896, 1909, and a reprise between 1920 and 1923.
The University of Minnesota's Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies has compiled figures by province and district that show there were 2,133,190 Armenians in the empire in 1914 and only about 387,800 by 1922.
Writing at the time of the early series of massacres, The New York Times suggested there was already a "policy of extermination directed against the Christians of Asia Minor."
The Young Turks, who called themselves the Committee of Unity and Progress, launched a set of measures against the Armenians, including a law authorizing the military and government to deport anyone they "sensed" was a security threat.
A later law allowed the confiscation of abandoned Armenian property. Armenians were ordered to turn in any weapons that they owned to the authorities. Those in the army were disarmed and transferred into labor battalions where they were either killed or worked to death.
There were executions into mass graves, and death marches of men, women and children across the Syrian desert to concentration camps with many dying along the way of exhaustion, exposure and starvation.
Much of this was quite well documented at the time by Western diplomats, missionaries and others, creating widespread wartime outrage against the Turks in the West. Although its ally, Germany, was silent at the time, in later years documents have surfaced from ranking German diplomats and military officers expressing horror at what was going on.
Some historians, however, while acknowledging the widespread deaths, say what happened does not technically fit the definition of genocide largely because they do not feel there is evidence that it was well-planned in advance.
The New York Times covered the issue extensively — 145 articles in 1915 alone by one count — with headlines like "Appeal to Turkey to Stop Massacres." The Times described the actions against the Armenians as "systematic," "authorized, and "organized by the government."
The American ambassador, Henry Morganthau Sr., was also outspoken. In his memoirs, the ambassador would write: "When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact."
Following the surrender of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, the Three Pashas fled to Germany, where they were given protection. But the Armenian underground formed a group called Operation Nemesis to hunt them down. On March 15, 1921, one of the pashas was shot dead on a street in Berlin in broad daylight in front of witnesses. The gunman pled temporary insanity brought on by the mass killings and a jury took only a little over an hour to acquit him. It was the defense evidence at this trial that drew the interest of Mr. Lemkin, the coiner of "genocide."
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/timestopics/topics_armeniangenocide.html
:coffee2:
Iran Says The Muslim World Must Strike Back At Israel For Gaza Attacks
Islamic countries must close ranks and respond to Israel's deadly attacks on the Gaza Strip, Iran's Defence Minister Ahmad Vahidi said on Saturday.
"Putting an end to the Zionist (Israeli) regime's crimes is only possible through a united, revolutionary retaliation by the Muslim world," Vahidi said in remarks carried by the official IRNA news agency.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/iran-calls-for-revolutionary-retaliation-by-the-muslim-world-on-israel-2012-11#ixzz2CU17O0ix
1 Keep not silence, O God; hold not Your peace or be still, O God.
2 For, behold, Your enemies are in tumult, and those who hate You have raised their heads.
3 They lay crafty schemes against Your people and consult together against Your hidden and precious ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be in remembrance no more.
5 For they have consulted together with one accord and one heart; against You they make a covenant—
--Psa 83
THE SONG OF MOSHEH AND THE SONG OF THE LAMB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv88ENKjAYE
My strength and my courage is YHWH,
And He has been my Savior.
He is my Elohim.
He is my Elohim, I praise Him,
The Elohim of my father,
I extol Him.
YHWH is a warrior.
YHWH is His name!
Your right hand, O YHWH,
Magnificent in power,
Your right hand, O YHWH,
Has shattered the enemy.
The enemy boasted,
I will pursue and overtake them;
I will divide the spoils and have my fill of them.
I will draw my sword, my hand shall despoil them.
When the wind blew, the sea covered them;
Like lead they sank in the mighty waters.
Who is like to you among the mighty ones, O YHWH?
Who is like to you, magnificent in set-apartness?
O terrible in renown.
worker of wonders,..
In your mercy, you led the people you redeemed;
In your strength, you guided them to your set-apart dwelling.
THE SONG OF MOSHEH AND THE SONG OF THE LAMB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv88ENKjAYE
And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and amazing are your deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the nations!
--Rev 15:3
Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to the Lord:
"I will sing to the Lord,
for he is highly exalted.
Both horse and driver
he has hurled into the sea.
2 "The Lord is my strength and my defense;
he has become my salvation.
He is my God, and I will praise him,
my father's God, and I will exalt him.
3 The Lord is a warrior;
the Lord is his name.
4 Pharaoh's chariots and his army
he has hurled into the sea.
The best of Pharaoh's officers
are drowned in the Red Sea.
5 The deep waters have covered them;
they sank to the depths like a stone.
6 Your right hand, Lord,
was majestic in power.
Your right hand, Lord,
shattered the enemy.
7 "In the greatness of your majesty
you threw down those who opposed you.
You unleashed your burning anger;
it consumed them like stubble.
8 By the blast of your nostrils
the waters piled up.
The surging waters stood up like a wall;
the deep waters congealed in the heart of the sea.
9 The enemy boasted,
'I will pursue, I will overtake them.
I will divide the spoils;
I will gorge myself on them.
I will draw my sword
and my hand will destroy them.'
10 But you blew with your breath,
and the sea covered them.
They sank like lead
in the mighty waters.
11 Who among the gods
is like you, Lord?
Who is like you—
majestic in holiness,
awesome in glory,
working wonders?
12 "You stretch out your right hand,
and the earth swallows your enemies.
13 In your unfailing love you will lead
the people you have redeemed.
In your strength you will guide them
to your holy dwelling.
14 The nations will hear and tremble;
anguish will grip the people of Philistia.
15 The chiefs of Edom will be terrified,
the leaders of Moab will be seized with trembling,
the people of Canaan will melt away;
16 terror and dread will fall on them.
By the power of your arm
they will be as still as a stone—
until your people pass by, Lord,
until the people you bought pass by.
17 You will bring them in and plant them
on the mountain of your inheritance—
the place, Lord, you made for your dwelling,
the sanctuary, Lord, your hands established.
18 "The Lord reigns
for ever and ever."
--Exodus 15
Rv 142-3 (CLT)
2 And I hear a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder, and the sound which I hear is as lyre singers playing on their lyres.
3 And they are singing a new song before the throne and before the four animals and before the elders. And no one was able to learn the song except the hundred forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.
Rv 152-4 (CLT)
2 And I perceived as it were a glassy sea, mixed with fire, and those who come off conquerors from the wild beast, and from its image, and from the number of its name, standing on the glassy sea, having the lyres of the Lord God.
3 And they are singing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lambkin, saying, "Great and marvelous are Thy acts, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Thy ways, King of the eons!
4 Who may by no means be afraid of Thee, Lord, And glorify Thy name? For Thou only art benign. For all the nations shall arrive And worship before Thee, For Thy just awards were made manifest."
These Overcomers expressing universal coming to God, universal yieldedness to God, and universal worship of God, sing the song of Moses (the slave of God) and the song of the the little Lamb, (both in Rev 153) These two songs and a third song "the new song" (which no one can learn except the 144,000) are related in the work to which they testify.
The Overcomer Moses arrived and through his ministry the people of God were corporately brought a significant step up into greater intimacy with God as well as a significantly increased identity and expression of it. The same was the result of the work of the lambkin Who Overcame death and hades. We were brought into greater intimacy with God and we received a higher identity from God. This also took on a greater expression in the world.
The new song (of the 144,000) cannot be learned by others in part because, Overcoming death and entering into immortality is not learned. It is similar to being born again in this regard. It is something God must preform. This is the third in a row of songs that concern a big change in the people of God wrought by Overcomers' ministries. The same changes are in view, only in an ultimate intensification this third time. We are to be brought closer to God by the transformation of our physical bodies into incorruptible bodies of glory. Our identity as being born of God will be revealed when the physical is born of resurrection. All creation will be set free.
Awesome, Thank You Jesus!
The new song (of the 144,00) is new because it is The Third Day song.
"After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight." (Hosea 62), KJV)
And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: (John 21, KJV)
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected." (Luke 1332, KJV)
And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (Isaiah 22, KJV) This is similar to Micah 41.
A Star of David in the sky made by #Hamas missiles and Iron Dome smoke trails
https://twitter.com/agcelotto/status/270327312640270336/photo/1
Great and marvelous are Thy works, YHWH,
Elohim El Shaddai.
Just and true are Thy ways,
Thou King of saints.
Who shall not fear Thee, O YHWH,
and glorify Thy Name?
For Thou only art set-apart,
For all nations shall come and worship before Thee,
For Thy judgments are made manifest.
--Rev 15
The High Priest Caiaphas prophesies that Jesus will die to gather together all 12 tribes of Israel--Ephraim [house of Israel] and Judah [house of Judah].
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
--John 11
Paul also preaches the gathering together of the scattered tribes of Israel. He talks about the promise made to Abraham which applies to all 12 tribes, the everlasting covenant.
6 "I'm on trial now because I expect God to keep the promise that he made to our ancestors. 7 Our twelve tribes expect this promise to be kept as they worship with intense devotion day and night. Your Majesty, the Jews are making accusations against me because I expect God to keep his promise.
This gathering together is an end time prophecy.
Jeremiah 50:4 "In those days, at that time," declares the LORD, "the people of Israel and the people of Judah together will go in tears to seek the LORD their God.
Jeremiah 50: 20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.
Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2012, 08:17:00 AM
The High Priest Caiaphas prophesies that Jesus will die to gather together all 12 tribes of Israel--Ephraim [house of Israel] and Judah [house of Judah].
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
--John 11
Paul also preaches the gathering together of the scattered tribes of Israel. He talks about the promise made to Abraham which applies to all 12 tribes, the everlasting covenant.
6 "I'm on trial now because I expect God to keep the promise that he made to our ancestors. 7 Our twelve tribes expect this promise to be kept as they worship with intense devotion day and night. Your Majesty, the Jews are making accusations against me because I expect God to keep his promise.
This gathering together is an end time prophecy.
Jeremiah 50:4 "In those days, at that time," declares the LORD, "the people of Israel and the people of Judah together will go in tears to seek the LORD their God.
Jeremiah 50: 20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.
"For I will pardon them whom I reserve"(the remnant)
IMO, In this age, those who are pardoned are those who have come, are coming, and will come, into the one new man, in Christ.
The holy seed of Abrahams faith is for Jew and Gentile now, in Christ....Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that
they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify
the heathen through faith,
preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
(Gal 3:6-9)
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now
to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that
the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(Gal 3:13-17)
The covenant of Abraham is ratified IN CHRIST and the covenant made 430 years later was the lesser covenant.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But
before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should
afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But
after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For
ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are
all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then
you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Gal 3:22-29)
The heirs are those who have come into Christ by faith.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that
you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called
Uncircumcision by that which is
called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That
at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world(as Gentiles): But
now in Christ Jesus you(Gentiles) who at one time
were far off are
(now)made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace,
who has made both(Jew & Gentile) one(the Body of Christ), and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (Jew & Gentile) one new man(the Body of Christ), so making peace; And that he might reconcile both(Jew & Gentile) unto God in one body(the Body of Christ) by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off(Gentile), and to them that were nigh(Jew). For through him
we both(Jew & Gentile) have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore
ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together is growing unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom you also are being built together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(Eph 2:10-22)
From these verses it looks to me like the gathering together is into the one
new man, neither Jew nor Gentile, in Christ, the seed of Abraham.
If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new creation, old things pass away, behold all things become new......Behold I am making all things new.
Yes, but nevertheless, the promise goes to whom it was made. Paul and Caiaphus claim it for the 12 tribes of Israel. Obviously the Jews didn't want to hear it then, and the Christians [Ephraim] don't want to hear it now. But, I only mention it because he will bring them "together in one" at the end times. I believe that the Christians must minister to the Jews at the end time because it will be the time of Jacob's trouble, preceding the return of Christ, bringing everything full circle.
For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the LORD will speak to this people,
to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"--but they would not listen.
--Isa 28:11,12
Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObyOYaGwv7g
don't fail to appreciate the law of the leavening of Christ and the Kingdom of Heaven...til the whole
lump becomes leavened with Christ...til the stone not cut out by human hands becomes a
mountain that fills the earth. til all the children of God[Adam a son of God] are brought into ONE...son of man
son of Adam/son of God
the promised seed of the woman[adam=God made them male/female]
Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2012, 11:08:05 AM
Yes, but nevertheless, the promise goes to whom it was made. Paul and Caiaphus claim it for the 12 tribes of Israel. Obviously the Jews didn't want to hear it then, and the Christians [Ephraim] don't want to hear it now. But, I only mention it because he will bring them "together in one" at the end times. I believe that the Christians must minister to the Jews at the end time because it will be the time of Jacob's trouble, preceding the return of Christ, bringing everything full circle.
Yes, and I understand that and agree with it. The promises of God are without repentence and all Israel shall be saved. My point is that IMO the joining together began at Pentecost and the "one new man" will be complete in this age. The rest of Israel will be saved, but in the age(s) to come(each in his own order).
In Galatians Paul explains that the promise that gathers the children of God is ratified FIRST in Abraham and his SEED, according to faith, and that
the promises to earthly Israel are secondary and do not annul the primary covenant which is to ALL who are of faith, Jew and Gentile.
"For
you are all children of God through faith in Jesus Christ"........"
If you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."The only reason I mentioned it is because IMO John 11:52 is not about the 12 tribes but about the children of God. A prophecy that Christ should die....
"Not for that nation only(Israel), but also that He should gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad(Gentiles)".--Isa 28:11,12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObyOYaGwv7g
[/quote]
Quote"For you are all children of God through faith in Jesus Christ"........"If you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."
This never comes out right, but, yes, we Christians [Gentiles] identify ourselves with faith because we are justified by faith.
The promise was given to Abraham when he was a Gentile [because there were only Gentiles then]. It is only fitting therefore that it is first received by the Gentiles [which is the whole world that are not Jewish]
Yet, at these last times, it might be hard to identify the Jews as our brothers when they mostly have no faith, but we must, because we will be [and we are] protecting them and bringing them into the faith now. The age will not be over until they realize who their Messiah is and call for his return.
In other words, We are Israel and so are they.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--Rom 11
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
--Rom 11
Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2012, 06:46:25 PM
Quote"For you are all children of God through faith in Jesus Christ"........"If you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."
This never comes out right, but, yes, we Christians [Gentiles] identify ourselves with faith because we are justified by faith.
The promise was given to Abraham when he was a Gentile [because there were only Gentiles then]. It is only fitting therefore that it is first received by the Gentiles [which is the whole world that are not Jewish]
Yet, at these last times, it might be hard to identify the Jews as our brothers when they mostly have no faith, but we must, because we will be [and we are] protecting them and bringing them into the faith now. The age will not be over until they realize who their Messiah is and call for his return.
In other words, We are Israel and so are they.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--Rom 11
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
--Rom 11
All of the above I agree with.
that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.As you quoted in your former post, " For by a people of strange lips and a foreign tongue I will speak to this people".
As Paul explained in Romans 9-11, some natural branches were cut-off. We, as wild olive branches were grafted in. We can also be cut-off, especially for boasting over the former branches, who will eventually all be grafted back in.
The Olive Tree now is made up of the original root, begun as a seed through Abraham, extended through the trunk of Israel , and now flourishing with branches both Hebrew and Gentile. Eventually every living being will be in that tree. :o) Praise God!
The revelation of God was presented to the world through the nation of Israel. Now it is presented through the church which is at present mostly made up of Gentile believers. I believe before the end of this age that the One New Man will manifest as never before, the eclessia of God, Jew and Gentile, sanctified and empowered with the message AND the manifestation of the kingdom of God.
I believe this prophecy in Revelation is a picture of this.
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
(Rev 10:1-11)
In another prophecy about olive trees, there is a prophecy that I believe refers to the manifestation of the one new man out of the eclessia/church/body of Christ...
Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts. 'What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain;
and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'" Also the word of the LORD came to me, saying, "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. "For who has despised the day of small things? But these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel--these are the eyes of the LORD which range to and fro throughout the earth."
(Zec 4:6-10)
The setting of a "topstone", "capstone",or "headstone" is the closing, or finishing of an arch. You build the two legs of an arch on supports and framing until you reach the top. The setting of the capstone suddenly unites the arch as one integral piece that stands alone and all the supports are knocked out- no longer necessary.
In any case, the finishing of the temple surely looks ahead beyond the temple Zerrubabel actually finished with Ezra and Nehemiah and Joshua and Haggai and Zechariah, to the temple that we are, built of living stones,fitly joined, Messiah being the chief cornerstone- a habitation of God in the Spirit.
For
through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom
the whole building fitly framed together grows into a holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit.
(Eph 2:18-22)
Glory!
Jesus is Head over all things to His body, the church, the fulness of Him who fills all in all. IMO, In order for the prophecies concerning the church and Messiah and Israel to be fulfilled- the manifestation of the One New Man, unto full stature(the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Son of God Eph 4), Jew and Gentile, has to be fulfilled.
Seven eyes, seven thunders, seven spirits of God, seven colors of light to make light(rainbow)....all of these things speak of fulness, completion, perfection, and the manifestation of god without lack.
Jesus, Head over all things to the ecclesia, His body, the FULNESS OF HIM WHO FILLS ALL IN ALL.(Eph 1)
So that you may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the height and depth and length and breadth; And to know the love of Christ which surpasses all knowledge, THAT YOU MAY BE FILLED UP TO ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD.(Eph 3)
Until we
all become one in faith, and in the knowledge of the Son of God, and become a perfect(complete,mature) man ACCORDING TO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULNESS OF MESSIAH:
(Eph 4:13)
I believe this corporate manifestation of the church is as sure a prophecy as any :o)
We already saw it once, from Pentecost and the first century AD(early rain). We have seen periodic glimpses in different places and times. I think we will see it in even greater glory(latter rain), for the ushering in of the next age in which Messiah will reign on earth. :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 19, 2012, 06:35:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2012, 11:08:05 AM
Yes, but nevertheless, the promise goes to whom it was made. Paul and Caiaphus claim it for the 12 tribes of Israel. Obviously the Jews didn't want to hear it then, and the Christians [Ephraim] don't want to hear it now. But, I only mention it because he will bring them "together in one" at the end times. I believe that the Christians must minister to the Jews at the end time because it will be the time of Jacob's trouble, preceding the return of Christ, bringing everything full circle.
Yes, and I understand that and agree with it. The promises of God are without repentence and all Israel shall be saved. My point is that IMO the joining together began at Pentecost and the "one new man" will be complete in this age. The rest of Israel will be saved, but in the age(s) to come(each in his own order).
In Galatians Paul explains that the promise that gathers the children of God is ratified FIRST in Abraham and his SEED, according to faith, and that the promises to earthly Israel are secondary and do not annul the primary covenant which is to ALL who are of faith, Jew and Gentile.
"For you are all children of God through faith in Jesus Christ"........"If you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."
The only reason I mentioned it is because IMO John 11:52 is not about the 12 tribes but about the children of God. A prophecy that Christ should die....
"Not for that nation only(Israel), but also that He should gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad(Gentiles)".--Isa 28:11,12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObyOYaGwv7g
[/quote]
Eaglesway... please expand on your "opinion": The joining together began at Pentecost... I have several "opinions" about the one new man and I know I will learn/grow from your "opinion" ... I just need a bit more of an explanation. Thanks.
Molly, I continue to appreciate your bringing these current events issues as they are related to the Scriptures to this forum.
When the LORD first spoke through Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea, "Go, take to yourself a wife of harlotry and have children of harlotry; for the land commits flagrant harlotry, forsaking the LORD." So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son. And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. "On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."
The sin of Jehu was the utter and terrible destruction of the enemy by fire(he gathered his enemies by a false proclamation into the temple of Baal, then closed the doors, locked them and burned them all to death).
Jezreel symbolizes judgment (cutting off) do to lack of mercy.
Then she conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And the LORD said to him, "Name her Lo-ruhamah, for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel, that I would ever forgive them. "But I will have compassion on the house of Judah and deliver them by the LORD their God, and will not deliver them by bow, sword, battle, horses or horsemen."
Lo-ruhamah symbolizes mercy triumphing over judgment, all Israel will be saved, but with a special note that it will be "not by might nor by power but BY MY SPIRIT".
When she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and gave birth to a son. And the LORD said, "Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people and I am not your God." Yet the number of the sons of Israel Will be like the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered; And in the place Where it is said to them, "You are not My people," It will be said to them, "You are the sons of the living God." And the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel will be gathered together, And they will appoint for themselves one head, And they will go up from the land, For great will be the day of Jezreel.
(Hos 1:2-11)
Loammi symbolizes what Paul stated in Romans,
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
(Rom 11:15)
Paul makes this clear by quoting this very verse from Hosea,
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
(Rom 9:23-26)
and,
For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:30-36)
The Jews in the old testament are Jezreel
The Jews in the new testament are Lo-ruhamah
The Jews in the kingdom of heaven are, with the Gentiles- Loammi
Quote
Eaglesway... please expand on your "opinion": The joining together began at Pentecost... I have several "opinions" about the one new man and I know I will learn/grow from your "opinion" ... I just need a bit more of an explanation. Thanks.
Molly, I continue to appreciate your bringing these current events issues as they are related to the Scriptures to this forum.
My view on the one new man would be hard to put in short form :o), but basically, I believe God has been revealing Himself to man over time through stages. Adam, Able, Enoch, Noah the anit-quarian fathers of man, then post-flood, Babel, Abraham Isaac and Jacob, the patriarchs into Israel(the land). Then comes David, kings and kingdoms and finally on into the Coming of Messiah. Israel was the Lampstand but that privilege was transferred to the church/body/ecclesia.
"Except you repent I will remove your Lampstand from its place" (to the Ephesian church in Revelation 2:5)
Interstingly enough, it is the Ephesians who, IMO, best tell the story of the ONE NEW MAN.
Begotten through the preaching of Paul, of Jews and Gentiles, Paul wrote the epistle to the Ephesians as unto Jews and Gentiles-expressing the One New Man-as the fulfilment of the purpose of the church.
"Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Messiah."
When Paul leaves for Rome, knowing he may never return he gathers the elders from Ephesus and leaves them with this exhortation.
"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. "
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. "I know that after my departure
savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears. "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
(Act 20:27-32)
Apparently they did so. Many years later, when Jesus speaks to them through John, He commends them for having tested them who called themselves apostles but were not.
Yet, even so He has something against them for which the privilege of being a "Lampstand church", one upon which the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit abides in love and power.
"and great grace was upon them all and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied and great signs and wonders to place at the hands of the apostles and they were all as one soul and no one among them had any need and the Lord added to the church daily such as were appointed to deliverance."
The above paraphrase combining a couple verses in Acts is a description of a Lampstand church, which, in my opinion, is the manifestation of the ONE NEW MAN. A fulfillment of the "mature man" of Ephesians 4 .
I also think this is the "man-child" of Revelations 12. The church as a bride is gestating from her pastoral womb sons(mature disciples) to go forth in prophetic and evangelistic maturity to carry the battle to the enemy...."and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it(the church).....redeeming men through the ministry of reconciliation.
I also think this is the great angel with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea in Revelations 10- clothed in the clouds(great cloud of witnesses) head in heaven(seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus), little book in hand(the prophetic thread runs through Daniels little book, to the little book opened by the Lamb for Joh to receive his revelation, then on into the hand of the ONE NEW MAN, manifesting in power and maturity as he prophecies to nations and kings.
These pictures of the ecclesia, and process of maturing into the sons of God walking in the fulness of God are also richly embedded into the letter Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling(ministry of reconciliation), what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints(the character of Jesus), and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe(the anointing). These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
(Eph 1:18-23)
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ, for by grace you have been saved, and
raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
(Eph 2:4-10)
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that
He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
(Eph 3:14-21)
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Eph 4:11-16)
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
(Eph 5:25-28)
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
(Eph 6:10-17)
In other words the one new man is the mature manifestation of the church, operating in the Spirit together as members of one another under the Headship of Jesus.
"And the Lord worked with them, confirming the word with signs and wonders following."
I wrote some more on this in two consecutive posts starting at
http://tentmaker.org/forum/book-of-revelation/the-body-of-christ-in-unity-in-john%27s-revelation/msg141562/#msg141562
Jezreel is literally "the seed of God."
The day of Jezreel is the day that all twelve tribes are once again reunited under one banner, Israel--through Christ.
Strictly speaking, Loammi in Hosea is referring to the ten tribes of the house of Israel who were divorced by God.
The house of Judah was never divorced by God--but left desolate by the Messiah.
The house of Judah stayed close to God in that they carried the OT back from exile in Babylon and rebuilt the Temple in Jerusalem. Because of them, we have the OT. They retained their identity.
But, the house of Israel, the northern ten tribes became Loammi--NOT A PEOPLE, NOT MY PEOPLE--until Jesus came 2000 years ago.
These are the Gentiles who accept Christ as their LORD and Savior, imo.
"Loammi"
H3818
לא עמּי
lô' ‛ammıy
lo am-mee'
From H3808 and H5971 with pronominal suffix, not my people; lo Ammi, the symbolical name of a son of Hosea: - Lo-ammi.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
--Hos 1
Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2012, 10:32:59 PM
Jezreel is literally "the seed of God."
The day of Jezreel is the day that all twelve tribes are once again reunited under one banner, Israel.
Strictly speaking, Loammi in Hosea is referring to the ten tribes of the house of Israel who were divorced by God.
The house of Judah was never divorced by God--but left desolate by the Messiah.
The house of Judah stayed close to God in that they carried the OT back from exile in Babylon and rebuilt the Temple in Jerusalem. Because of them, we have the OT. They retained their identity.
But, the house of Israel, the northern ten tribes became Loammi--NOT A PEOPLE, NOT MY PEOPLE--until Jesus came 2000 years ago.
These are the Gentiles who accept Christ as their LORD and Savior, imo.
"Loammi"
H3818
לא עמּי
lô' ‛ammıy
lo am-mee'
From H3808 and H5971 with pronominal suffix, not my people; lo Ammi, the symbolical name of a son of Hosea: - Lo-ammi.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
--Hos 1
And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel.
(Hos 1:4)
In the context within which I was writing, being the story of judgment and redemption told in Hosea as expressed in the names of the three children of Gomer-
the child/son Jezreel was named for exactly what the Lord spoke to Hosea, the bloodshed done by Jehu on that day. In essence, he struck the rock, and was struck in return. The narrative in Hosea shows this as not a good thing, but a manifestation of God's displeasure- but gladly, nevertheless to be followed by mercy :o)
As for Loammi, Paul clearly explains this(Romans chapters 9-11) as being Jews receiving mercy jointly with the Gentiles, quoting from the very verse in Hosea, his whole point being that they could not b be complete without us and we cannot be complete without them.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 19, 2012, 10:44:17 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2012, 10:32:59 PM
Jezreel is literally "the seed of God."
The day of Jezreel is the day that all twelve tribes are once again reunited under one banner, Israel.
Strictly speaking, Loammi in Hosea is referring to the ten tribes of the house of Israel who were divorced by God.
The house of Judah was never divorced by God--but left desolate by the Messiah.
The house of Judah stayed close to God in that they carried the OT back from exile in Babylon and rebuilt the Temple in Jerusalem. Because of them, we have the OT. They retained their identity.
But, the house of Israel, the northern ten tribes became Loammi--NOT A PEOPLE, NOT MY PEOPLE--until Jesus came 2000 years ago.
These are the Gentiles who accept Christ as their LORD and Savior, imo.
"Loammi"
H3818
לא עמּי
lô' ‛ammıy
lo am-mee'
From H3808 and H5971 with pronominal suffix, not my people; lo Ammi, the symbolical name of a son of Hosea: - Lo-ammi.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
--Hos 1
And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel.
(Hos 1:4)
In the context within which I was writing, being the story of judgment and redemption told in Hosea as expressed in the names of the three children of Gomer-
the child/son Jezreel was named for exactly what the Lord spoke to Hosea, the bloodshed done by Jehu on that day. In essence, he struck the rock, and was struck in return. The narrative in Hosea shows this as not a good thing, but a manifestation of God's displeasure- but gladly, nevertheless to be followed by mercy :o)
As for Loammi, Paul clearly explains this(Romans chapters 9-11) as being Jews receiving mercy jointly with the Gentiles, quoting from the very verse in Hosea, his whole point being that they could not b be complete without us and we cannot be complete without them.
I agree about the completeness part, but the Jews were never Lo-ammi. They were always and to this day identified and identifiable as the people of God, because God did not divorce them.
But, who are the Gentiles? They are the heathen, the nations, the non identifiable, the unwashed masses, NOT A PEOPLE< NOT MY PEOPLE. They are also the first to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. This is what identifies them as those in the Hosea prophecy as the ones called Lo-ammi, because it is those Lo-ammi [the divorced house of Israel] who later become the sons of the living God [Christians].
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be
gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be
the day of Jezreel.--Hos 1
Quote from: eaglesway on November 19, 2012, 10:31:32 PM
Quote
Eaglesway... please expand on your "opinion": The joining together began at Pentecost... I have several "opinions" about the one new man and I know I will learn/grow from your "opinion" ... I just need a bit more of an explanation. Thanks.
Molly, I continue to appreciate your bringing these current events issues as they are related to the Scriptures to this forum.
My view on the one new man would be hard to put in short form :o), but basically, I believe God has been revealing Himself to man over time through stages. Adam, Able, Enoch, Noah the anit-quarian fathers of man, then post-flood, Babel, Abraham Isaac and Jacob, the patriarchs into Israel(the land). Then comes David, kings and kingdoms and finally on into the Coming of Messiah. Israel was the Lampstand but that privilege was transferred to the church/body/ecclesia.
"Except you repent I will remove your Lampstand from its place" (to the Ephesian church in Revelation 2:5)
Interstingly enough, it is the Ephesians who, IMO, best tell the story of the ONE NEW MAN.
Begotten through the preaching of Paul, of Jews and Gentiles, Paul wrote the epistle to the Ephesians as unto Jews and Gentiles-expressing the One New Man-as the fulfilment of the purpose of the church.
"Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Messiah."
When Paul leaves for Rome, knowing he may never return he gathers the elders from Ephesus and leaves them with this exhortation.
"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears. "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
(Act 20:27-32)
Apparently they did so. Many years later, when Jesus speaks to them through John, He commends them for having tested them who called themselves apostles but were not.
Yet, even so He has something against them for which the privilege of being a "Lampstand church", one upon which the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit abides in love and power.
"and great grace was upon them all and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied and great signs and wonders to place at the hands of the apostles and they were all as one soul and no one among them had any need and the Lord added to the church daily such as were appointed to deliverance."
The above paraphrase combining a couple verses in Acts is a description of a Lampstand church, which, in my opinion, is the manifestation of the ONE NEW MAN. A fulfillment of the "mature man" of Ephesians 4 .
I also think this is the "man-child" of Revelations 12. The church as a bride is gestating from her pastoral womb sons(mature disciples) to go forth in prophetic and evangelistic maturity to carry the battle to the enemy...."and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it(the church).....redeeming men through the ministry of reconciliation.
I also think this is the great angel with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea in Revelations 10- clothed in the clouds(great cloud of witnesses) head in heaven(seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus), little book in hand(the prophetic thread runs through Daniels little book, to the little book opened by the Lamb for Joh to receive his revelation, then on into the hand of the ONE NEW MAN, manifesting in power and maturity as he prophecies to nations and kings.
These pictures of the ecclesia, and process of maturing into the sons of God walking in the fulness of God are also richly embedded into the letter Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling(ministry of reconciliation), what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints(the character of Jesus), and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe(the anointing). These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
(Eph 1:18-23)
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ, for by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
(Eph 2:4-10)
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
(Eph 3:14-21)
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Eph 4:11-16)
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
(Eph 5:25-28)
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
(Eph 6:10-17)
In other words the one new man is the mature manifestation of the church, operating in the Spirit together as members of one another under the Headship of Jesus.
"And the Lord worked with them, confirming the word with signs and wonders following."
I wrote some more on this in two consecutive posts starting at
http://tentmaker.org/forum/book-of-revelation/the-body-of-christ-in-unity-in-john%27s-revelation/msg141562/#msg141562
WOW!!!! aka
Wondrous things
Out of the
Word
Thanks so much for taking the time to reply... I anticipated a great blessing and received a magnificent blessing. I printed the earlier posts (The body of Christ...) and will also print this one so that I can more carefully read and study and learn and grow... May God richly bless you... thank you so much for your gracious and generous sharing.
Quote from: Paul LThe Body of Christ is nowhere present within the pages of Revelation simply because it is a book about the restoration of Israel, by contrast the Body of Christ is composed primarily of non-Israelites, this being the case, what's the point of having the Body of Christ present on the Earth if we are not "appointed unto wrath"?
The saints [body of Christ] are present during the 3.5 years of the great tribulation [Jacob's trouble], seen here:
He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
---Dan 7:25
The saints are present after the Antichrist is revealed:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Antichrist is given power over the saints as well as all nations of the world for a short period of time:
Revelation 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
But the saints will triumph in the end:
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever--yes, for ever and ever.'
:coffee2:
Netanyahu trying to convince Israeli hawks he won the Gaza war
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/netanyahu-trying-to-convince-israeli-hawks-he-won-the-gaza-war.premium-1.479974
While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
--1 Thess 5:3
Obamacare at work. You asked for it. You got it.
Orlando Health to cut record number of jobs to save money
Reduction of 400 jobs will help position system for health-care overhaul, officials say
In the largest staff reduction in its nearly 100-year history, Orlando Health is cutting up to 400 jobs starting immediately, hospital system officials announced Monday.
The move is part of a broader effort to position the hospital system for the health-care overhaul, CEO Sherrie Sitarik said.
Such cost-cutting measures are happening across the country. On Wednesday, Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center in North Carolina announced that it would cut 950 jobs by June.
Last month, Louisiana State University announced it would cut 1,495 positions as well as programs across its seven hospitals to trim more than $150 million from its budget.
"It's a challenging time for hospitals," said John Bigalke, senior partner of global health care for Deloitte, one of the nation's largest professional services firms.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-orlando-health-layoffs-20121116,0,7763193.story
7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
--1 Sam8:7
Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2012, 04:13:00 PM
Quote from: Paul LThe Body of Christ is nowhere present within the pages of Revelation simply because it is a book about the restoration of Israel, by contrast the Body of Christ is composed primarily of non-Israelites, this being the case, what's the point of having the Body of Christ present on the Earth if we are not "appointed unto wrath"?
QuoteThe saints [body of Christ] are present during the 3.5 years of the great tribulation [Jacob's trouble], seen here:
OK, I looked below in Dan 7:25, I didn't see anything about
Body of Christ saints.
QuoteHe shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
---Dan 7:25
How do you know the "saints" being referred to in this passage are
Israelite saints or
Body of Christ saints? There is a distinguishing difference....the context of the "saints" of the entire 7th chapter is Daniel's people, Israelite "saints".
QuoteThe saints are present after the Antichrist is revealed:
You bet, Israelite "saints".
Quote2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
And the point you're making with the above quote is?
QuoteAntichrist is given power over the saints as well as all nations of the world for a short period of time:
Revelation 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Which "saints" ? Israelite or Body of Christ?
QuoteDaniel 7:18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever--yes, for ever and ever.'
Once again which of the two groups of
saints are being discussed here? Israelite or Body of Christ?
Dan 9:24 is discussing only Daniel's people upon whom the 70 weeks are conferred, Daniel knows nothing about the Body of Christ.... I don't get the point of how you are using 2 Thess 2:3?
This goes to a basic dispensational debate.
IMO, in this age, there are only one kind of saints. Everyone who believes is "in Christ", Jew and Gentile.
This is made clear in Romans 9-11, Galatians 3 and 4, Ephesians 1 and 2- among many others
The dividing wall is removed in Christ. The wild olive branches are grafted into ONE olive tree in Christ.
For there is one Lord, one faith, one body, one spirit, one baptism(Eph 4)
We are all members of one another in Christ.
IMO. People who break up the body of Christ in this age do so to justify their dispensational theories and to avoid the correction of the word by saying, "Oh, THAT, That's for The Jews, Oh, THAT's for the Gentiles.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 25, 2012, 07:09:21 PM
QuoteIMO, in this age, there are only one kind of saints. Everyone who believes is "in Christ", Jew and Gentile.
True, these are Body of Christ saints during this age of "grace", there are no Jew/ Gentile distinguishing characteristics. You're following quotes are perfectly vaild....
QuoteThis is made clear in Romans 9-11, Galatians 3 and 4, Ephesians 1 and 2- among many others
The dividing wall is removed in Christ. The wild olive branches are grafted into ONE olive tree in Christ.
For there is one Lord, one faith, one body, one spirit, one baptism(Eph 4)
QuoteIMO. People who break up the body of Christ in this age do so to justify their dispensational theories and to avoid the correction of the word by saying, "Oh, THAT, That's for The Jews, Oh, THAT's for the Gentiles.
Fair point.....but square this with Dan 9:24. Are all of us Daniel's people then? You want to break up "dispensational theories", so who are Daniel's people here upon whom the 70 weeks are conferred? Body of Christ saints? Israelite saints?
Quote from: eaglesway on November 25, 2012, 07:09:21 PM
IMO, in this age, there are only one kind of saints. Everyone who believes is "in Christ", Jew and Gentile.
The dividing wall is removed in Christ. The wild olive branches are grafted into ONE olive tree in Christ.
I agree with that.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 25, 2012, 07:09:21 PM
IMO. People who break up the body of Christ in this age do so to justify their dispensational theories and to avoid the correction of the word by saying, "Oh, THAT, That's for The Jews, Oh, THAT's for the Gentiles.
I'm not one who "breaks up the body of Christ". As you say, one Lord, one baptism, and I'll add "one way to the Father". I am one though that although not always very good at doing it, believes in being careful with the scriptures in terms of who was the primary audience when the Word was spoken, and then how is that intended for us today; i.e., is it a
primary application, or more so "spiritual application/examples for our learning"... saying it poorly, but I think you know what I'm getting at. :2c: I don't really think that's what you're alluding to in your post, but it made me think of it. (There's probably more to "dispensationalism" than that..)
Quote from: Paul L on November 25, 2012, 08:01:25 PM
QuoteIMO. People who break up the body of Christ in this age do so to justify their dispensational theories and to avoid the correction of the word by saying, "Oh, THAT, That's for The Jews, Oh, THAT's for the Gentiles.
Fair point.....but square this with Dan 9:24. Are all of us Daniel's people then? You want to break up "dispensational theories", so who are Daniel's people here upon whom the 70 weeks are conferred? Body of Christ saints? Israelite saints?
In his prayer in chapter 9 Daniel says, "O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us." [vs. 16]
He mentions Jerusalem, thy holy mountain, our fathers, and "thy people" and elsewhere in ch. 7 he refers to "the saints." I will focus here on "thy holy mountain." In Isaiah 2:2, the mountain of the Lord's house is to be established in the top of the mountains, and exulted above the hills, and all nations flow to it. I suggest Jesus represented the holy mountain. He is also referred to as the "foundation" laid in Zion, Isaiah 28:16, and precious corner stone, the stone that the builders rejected, etc. In Daniel 2:35-45 Jesus is represented by a stone cut without hands, that smashes the image on its feet, and destroys it. The stone grows into a mountain that fills the earth. The "holy mountain" is clearly a metaphor and a symbol of Christ and his kingdom, the church, as the legs and feet of the image represent the Roman Empire.
Isaiah 2:2, which is a prophecy concerning mount Zion and Jerusalem, shows the continuity of OT Jerusalem, and the church, the heavenly Jerusalem. When Jesus ascended to heaven, Isaiah 2:2 was fulfilled, and Jerusalem became a heavenly city. Paul said that believers are raised up and sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Eph. 2:6. The city of Jerusalem is in heaven, Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22, Rev. 21:10ff.
Daniel's people, then are the saints of both the Old and New Testaments. The prophets are the foundation of the church, together with the apostles, Eph. 2:20.
Dispensationalism fails to recognize that Isaiah 2:2 applies to Christ and his church, and that this prophecy was fulfilled. The dispensationalists have a mantra of literalism, and appeal to literalism to support their claim that the church is not found in Old Testament prophecy, but this "literal" approach is quickly abandoned, whenever there is a chance to exult the Jews in an earthly kingdom where they are doted on by Gentiles, as suggested in their interpretation of Isaiah 2:2.
The literal approach says that mount Zion is exulted tectonically, and becomes the highest mountain in the world. A tectonic uplift of Jerusalem is also depicted in Zechariah 14:10 if this is taken literally. But of course such ideas are absurd. And consider John's message, "every mountain and hill shall be made low." The prophecies contradict. One says mount Zion is to be the highest mountain in the world, the other says every mountain will be made low. The dilemma is resolved when the mountains are interpreted as symbols of God's promises, as we see in Genesis 49:26. Jacob said his blessings extended "to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." The association of his blessings with mountains, and everlasting ones, alludes to their lofty spiritual nature, and their eternal duration. Thus, mountains are symbols of the promises of the Gospel.
One of the foremost of these promises is the coming of a Savior, so Christ is represented by a mountain. He is the foundation laid in Zion, the precious corner stone. So mount Zion is the name of the mountain which represents Christ. Was this mountain made low? When Jesus was crucified and buried, he was indeed "made low." But afterwards, when he was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, he was established in the top of the mountains, in the throne of his Father, and made Lord of all, and was given the eternal throne of David which he was to receive, as king of his saints in the heavenly Jerusalem.
Now, in the New Testament, the church is represented by Jerusalem, the heavenly city, and Jerusalem was raised up when Christ ascended to heaven. So the "saints" of Daniel's prophecies are the people of Israel, up until the time of Pentecost, when Jesus was "made Christ." Then the apostles preached the good news to the Jews, and Peter cited the law of Moses, about a prophet who was to come, and said:
Acts 3:19-24
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Verse 23 says those Jews who do not believe the Gospel are "destroyed from among the people," and so are no longer Jews, or Israel, but as Paul said, in Romans 9:6, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." They are cut off from the promises, which are obtained only through Christ.
Isaiah 2:2 is a key scripture which shows the continuity of OT Israel and the Christian church. The dispensationalists are blind to it; their theory is a man made doctrine, destroyed by the prophecy of Isaiah, itself a "mountain." As Ezekiel said, "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel." [Ezek. 39:4] These mountains are symbols of promises, and blessings, and prophecies of God's word.
Doug
Daniel's timeline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czHNJHmkgr0
I highly recommend this two hour video. He's done an incredible job of piecing things together, and gives the dates for the start of the Great Tribulation [last 3.5 years] and the return of Jesus.
I am in pretty much total agreement with his timeline and his rationale for it.
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
--Luke 21:28
JOEL RICHARDSON: The Battle of Gog of Magog & the Return of Jesus
September 29, 2012 By daltonthomas Leave a Comment
[Source] The Book of Revelation, chapter 19, contains what is perhaps the most famous Biblical passage concerning the return of Jesus. There, Jesus the Messiah is seen to burst forth from heaven, riding on a white horse with the armies of heaven following Him. But as powerful and well known as this prophetic portrayal of the return of Jesus is, few are aware of the fact that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39, most often known as the Battle of Gog of Magog, also concludes with the return of Jesus. In fact, it can be said that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is in fact, the Armageddon of the Old Testament.
Although many popular interpreters have wrongly understood this passage to conclude several years before the return of Jesus, any honest assessment of the text simply does not allow for this. But among the many reasons to reject a pre-Day of the LORD conclusion of this prophecy, one of the simplest, is because it concludes with the LORD actually physically present in the land of Israel.
That's right, Ezekiel reveals that at the conclusion of Gog's invasion, Jesus the Messiah is physically present on the ground, in the land. Consider the following passage:
"For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, on that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence" —Ezekiel 38:19–20
According to this text, the Lord Himself says that throughout the earth, both people and animals will "quake at [His] presence." The word used for presence here is the Hebrew word paneh. Paneh is a reference to the actual face of someone or something. When God says that the people of the earth will quake at His paneh, He is saying that they will be terrified because of His actual physical presence, on the ground, in the land of Israel (see also: Zechariah 14:2-5, Isaiah 29:2-8, Revelation 16:16-20).
Concerning the word paneh, The New Unger's Bible Dictionary says, "The presence (face) of Jehovah is Jehovah in his own personal presence." The New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words says, "In the OT, being in God's or another's presence is indicated by a preposition (l) prefixed to the Hebrew word panim ('face'). The thought is to be 'before the face of the person." Paneh is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the actual presence of God. Jacob, for instance, after wrestling with the Angel of the Lord, referred to seeing God face-to-face:
"So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, 'For I have seen God face [paneh] to face [paneh], and yet my life has been delivered'" —Genesis 32:30
It is also interesting to note that in place of the Hebrew paneh, the Septuagint used the Greek word prosopon. Prosopon is one of two words commonly used in the New Testament to refer to actual presence. The other word is parousia, which is commonly associated with the Second Coming. To convey actual presence, betweenparousia and prosopon, prosopon is the more powerful term. While parousia most often implies coming, prosopon implies actual face-to-face presence. As Jesus is coming on the clouds, this is His parousia, but once He has actually arrived, then the word prosopon is used.
An excellent example of the New Testament usage of prosopon is a scene where the righteous are actually looking upon the face of God in the eternal city:
"No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face [prosopon], and his name will be on their foreheads" —Revelation 22:4
Ezekiel's description of people quaking in fear of God's face reveals that at the conclusion of the Battle of Gog and Magog, Jesus the Messiah, God incarnate, is physically present on the earth, in the land of Israel.
The Holy One in Israel
Further evidence for the physical presence of Jesus at the conclusion of this battle is seen in the following verse:
"And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel." — Ezekiel 39:7
This is the only time that the phrase "the LORD, the Holy One in Israel" is used in the whole Bible. It is the Hebrew YHVH qadowsh baYisra'el. A similar phrase, "the Holy One of Israel" (qadowsh Yisra'el), is used thirty-one times in Scripture (e.g., Isaiah 12:6; 43:3; 55:5; 60:9, etc.). But here in Ezekiel, the Lord is not merely the Holy One of Israel; He is actually present in the land and on the ground! While the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.
Other biblical commentators have also taken special note of God's presence in Ezekiel's oracle as evidence that it is a parallel to the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19. Apologist Dave Hunt for instance has stated:
"There is no doubt, from both Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1 and 19, that this personal coming of Yahweh to rescue His people and to destroy Antichrist and his armies takes place at Armageddon. It is significant, then, that similar language concerning the personal presence of God is found in Ezekiel 38 and 39, thus identifying the event described there as Armageddon also."
Hunt's observations are correct. But while most conservative, premillennialist, futurist interpreters who take Scripture at face value and use a literalist heremeutic will interpret the entirety of this passage in a literal fashion, when it comes to these two texts which show that God is actually present and in the land, many suddenly switch to an allegorical and non-literalist interpretation, without any justification for doing so.
If one uses a consistent literal method to interpret Ezekiel 38 and 39, then one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah. And as I have said before, if this is the case, within the world of Biblical prophecy, this absolutely changes everything. It is high time for the Church to begin wrestling with the implications.
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145329#msg145329 date=1354058219]
JOEL RICHARDSON: The Battle of Gog of Magog & the Return of Jesus
Quote.......few are aware of the fact that the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39, most often known as the Battle of Gog of Magog, also concludes with the return of Jesus.
Read the text: Rev 20:7-8
"And when the
thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog & Magog , to gather them together.....and compassed.....the beloved city" (Jerusalem).
Christ had been in the city of Jerusalem for a thousand years by the time Gog & Magog attempts their invasion.
QuoteAlthough many popular interpreters have wrongly understood this passage to conclude several years before the return of Jesus, any honest assessment of the text simply does not allow for this.
Quite right.....
QuoteBut among the many reasons to reject a pre-Day of the LORD conclusion of this prophecy, one of the simplest, is because it concludes with the LORD actually physically present in the land of Israel.
IMO,
This is for sure , he'd been there for 1000 years by the time Gog & Magog show up. Rev 20:7-8
Quote..... at the conclusion of Gog's invasion, Jesus the Messiah is physically present on the ground, in the land. Consider the following passage:
Yep, he'd already been there for 1000 years, Rev 20:7-8
QuotePaneh is a reference to the actual face of someone or something. When God says that the people of the earth will quake at His paneh, He is saying that they will be terrified because of His actual physical presence, on the ground, in the land of Israel
That's correct, he'd been present in the land for 1000 years, Rev 20:7-8.
QuoteConcerning the word paneh, The New Unger's Bible Dictionary says, "The presence (face) of Jehovah is Jehovah in his own personal presence." The New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words says, "In the OT, being in God's or another's presence is indicated by a preposition (l) prefixed to the Hebrew word panim ('face'). The thought is to be 'before the face of the person." Paneh is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the actual presence of God. Jacob, for instance, after wrestling with the Angel of the Lord, referred to seeing God face-to-face:
Absolutely correct, Christ had been "paneh" for 1000 years by the time Gog & Magog show up, Rev 20:7-8
QuoteEzekiel's description of people quaking in fear of God's face reveals that at the conclusion of the Battle of Gog and Magog, Jesus the Messiah, God incarnate, is physically present on the earth, in the land of Israel.
And he'd been present there for a thousand years, Rev 20:7-8
QuoteFurther evidence for the physical presence of Jesus at the conclusion of this battle is seen in the following verse:
"And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel." — Ezekiel 39:7
........ the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.
In light of Rev 20:7-8, this is absolutely correct. Christ was sitting in the Holy of Holy in Jerusalem at the time Satan makes his invasion attempt as the Chief Prince of Mesech & Tubal.
QuoteOther biblical commentators have also taken special note of God's presence in Ezekiel's oracle as evidence that it is a parallel to the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19.
The two battles are separated by 1000 years in time. Armageddon occurred when Anti-christ was defeated a thousand years before Satan gets his defeat along with the forces of Gog & Magog.
Quote"There is no doubt, from both Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1 and 19, that this personal coming of Yahweh to rescue His people and to destroy Antichrist and his armies takes place at Armageddon. It is significant, then, that similar language concerning the personal presence of God is found in Ezekiel 38 and 39, thus identifying the event described there as Armageddon also."
Entire quote is pure fiction, the writer doesn't even allude to Rev 20:7-8 because it doesn't support this untenable position.
QuoteHunt's observations are correct. But while most conservative, premillennialist, futurist interpreters who take Scripture at face value and use a literalist heremeutic will interpret the entirety of this passage in a literal fashion, when it comes to these two texts which show that God is actually present and in the land, many suddenly switch to an allegorical and non-literalist interpretation, without any justification for doing so.
Huh? I have no idea what the guy just said......Is there an interpreter on-line?
QuoteIf one uses a consistent literal method to interpret Ezekiel 38 and 39, then one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah.
He starts out with "paneh" that Christ must already be present on the ground when the invasion occurs, then he states: "....one must acknowledge that it concludes with the return of Jesus the Messiah". This leaves me feeling quite pleased I didn't learn my use of the English language at his school of theology.
QuoteAnd as I have said before, if this is the case, within the world of Biblical prophecy, this absolutely changes everything. It is high time for the Church to begin wrestling with the implications.
........and which scenario would he be talking about here? The scenario he started (paneh) with, or the one he concluded with(panim)? :2c:
Paul did it occur to you that gog and magog war could happen twice, once before the return of Christ and once after the 1000 year reign of Christ?
Rev 19 describes the gog and magog of Eze 38 as happening before the milleneum reign of Christ. We know this because Christ is returning to earth with his armies from heaven to avenge the saints and fight the war himself. What is described in Rev 20 is the second battle of gog and magog at the end of the millenium.
1st war, for which Christ returns:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
--Rev 19
Rev 19 is also described in prophecy by Enoch:
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
--Jude 1
This is also described by many prophets as the day of the Lord or that day.
Rev 20 is describing the 2nd war of gog and magog, after the millenium:
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
--Rev 20
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145335#msg145335 date=1354069368
QuotePaul did it occur to you that gog and magog war could happen twice, once before the return of Christ and once after the 1000 year reign of Christ?
Only if it appears in the Bible......
QuoteRev 19 describes the gog and magog of Eze 38 as happening before the milleneum reign of Christ.
OH? The only mention I see appears in Rv 20:7-8, plainly stated as occurring "and when the thousand years are expired", I'm pretty sure that means after the millenium, not "before" as you have stated it.
QuoteWe know this because Christ is returning to earth with his armies from heaven
This is not "paneh", already present.....
Quoteto avenge the saints and fight the war himself.
What are you doing here? Picking & choosing your "paneh's" ?
QuoteWhat is described in Rev 20 is the second battle of gog and magog at the end of the millenium.
Yep, this is what is called picking & choosing your "paneh's". The Bible doesn't state your position, so what the heck, just write it in.
Molly, I'm not a 1st grader........six years of engineering school education has served me pretty well. The math required to follow a simple timeline does not require calculus, so you bury it in eschatology to make it look presentable.
Rev 19 is describing a war with Christ and Israel on one side and the beast, the kings of the earth and their armies on the other side. Is this the same war as Eze 38 and 39?
In my opinion, Yes.
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
--Eze 38
We know that the latter days refers to the end of the age, this age, as it is referred to in this manner in other places in the Bible. So the battle of Eze 38 [gog and magog] is happening at the end of the age.
The battle of Rev 19 is also happening at the end of the age, because it describes Christ's return and he returns at the end of the age.
in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. Eze 38
Again it is the latter years, and Israel is described as having been brought out of the nations into the land once again when Gog decides to descend on her with his armies.
Today we see the first time in 2000 years that Israel has been brought into the land again from out of the nations.
9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. Eze 38
This describes the abomination that causes desolation described by Daniel and Jesus which involves a foreign army invading Jerusalem and Judea, which we know kicks off the 3.5 years of the Great tribulation at the end of the age.
Here we see Rev 19 and Eze 39 describing the same outcome.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
--Eze 39
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
--Rev 19
The Rev 19 battle of gog and magog ends with Satan being locked up in the pit for 1000 years.
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
--Rev 20
After 1000 years, Satan is released and does the same thing all over again.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
--Rev 20
But Jesus does not return at the end of the Rev 20 war because he is already here.
He returned at the first battle of gog and magog, which is Richardson's point.
"For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, on that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence" —Ezekiel 38:19–20
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.--Zech 14:4
Please folks,
remember to be putting IMO
-especially where opinions differ widely about the prophetic scriptures. Thanks :friendstu:
Since when did and where does prophecy have an opinion? It is only me wondering. :Chinscratch:
Micah - What I meant was people have different interpretation of prophecy and were starting to post as if their interpretation was the right one rather than give an opinion. This is a discussion forum not a debate. We all (I think) agree that Bible prophecy is true and "scripture cannot be broken" but prophecy is a little more vague oftimes compared to "God is Love." :Peace2:
Quotequote author=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145341#msg145341 date=1354076071]
QuoteRev 19 is describing a war with Christ and Israel on one side and the beast, the kings of the earth and their armies on the other side.
Is this the same war as Eze 38 and 39?
Not in accordance to the timeline given in Rev 20:7-8, IMO, it's the only timeline given anywhere in the Bible for the Gog/Magog event which clearly is separated in time with Armageddon by 1000 years.......
QuoteIn my opinion, Yes.
Then give us a Biblical quote, I gave you mine & it's crystal clear.
Quote16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.--Eze 38
We know that the latter days refers to the end of the age, this age, as it is referred to in this manner in other places in the Bible. So the battle of Eze 38 [gog and magog] is happening at the end of the age.
The end part of any period of time is the
latter part of that period, the "latter" part of the 19th century is distinctly displaced from the "latter" part of the 20th century by 100 years. For century markers, "latter" could be any point beyond the the first fifty years of the century in question.
QuoteThe battle of Rev 19 is also happening at the end of the age, because it describes Christ's return and he returns at the end of the age.
That's for sure......but what age? The current one we are presently living in or the millennial age? If you want "paneh", you don't get it when Christ returns at the very end of the age, you can only get "paneh" if he was present before that.
Quotein the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. Eze 38
Again, the "latter years" of what age?
QuoteToday we see the first time in 2000 years that Israel has been brought into the land again from out of the nations.
Only the House of Judah is present in the land. Most of the areas of the Land of Promise in present day Israel is populated by Arabs, it is they who largely populate the areas given to the House of Israel.
Quote9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. Eze 38
This describes the abomination that causes desolation described by Daniel and Jesus
The "abomination that causes desolation" is nowhere mentioned in all of the book of Ezekiel, just as nowhere in all of Rev 19 is there any mention of Gog & Magog.
QuoteHere we see Rev 19 and Eze 39 describing the same outcome.
All wars have the same outcome, winners/losers. You could just just as well be discussing the American Civil War here. Vultures have been feeding on carcasses since the dawn of time, nothing unique about it, just a picture of the outcomes of all wars.
Quote18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.--Rev 19
Yep, happened right after Armageddon when Ant-Christ was defeated, and it'll happen again 1000 years later at a different epic battle that does not have it's location at Armageddon. Have you taken some time to study the battle location where Messiah defeats Gog & Magog? I've not been able to find a Biblical reference that equates "Hammon-gog" with Armageddon in respect to geographical location.
QuoteThe Rev 19 battle of gog and magog ends with Satan being locked up in the pit for 1000 years.
Again, where in Rev 19 does Gog & Magog appear? So far I've located it only in Rev 20:7-8.
Quote7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.--Rev 20
QuoteBut Jesus does not return at the end of the Rev 20 war because he is already here.
That's for sure, it's what "paneh" is all about. Christ was sitting inside the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem when Gog & Magog commenced their invasion attempt, he wasn't sitting in the Holy of Holies when Anti-christ succeeded in his invasion of Jerusalem a 1000 years earlier; different wars, different outcomes of
specific events.
QuoteHe returned at the first battle of gog and magog, which is Richardson's point.
At the time of the "first" (only) battle of Gog & Magog, Christ was already sitting in the Holy of Holies inside the city of Jerusalem, having been there already for 1000 years, Rev 20:7-8.
Richardson's point starts with "paneh" but he concludes it with "panim"....he contradicted his original premise to which if he'd remained true he would have somewhere in his digression at least mentioned Rev 20:7-8, but he appears deliberately avoid quoting it because of the obvious contradiction he creates within his own premise. :2c:
Quote from: PaulNot in accordance to the timeline given in Rev 20:7-8, it's the only timeline given anywhere in the Bible for the Gog/Magog event which clearly is separated in time with Armageddon by 1000 years.......
I agree it's a nice timeline in Rev 20, but the timeline starts with Satan being cast into the pit and the beginning of the millenium reign of Christ.
It does not mention the war which was just covered in Rev 19, during which Jesus returns to earth, and which aligns in so many ways with Eze 38 and 39 as I attempted to show with scripture.
QuoteThat's for sure......but what age? The current one we are presently living in or the millennial age? If you want "paneh", you don't get it when Christ returns at the very end of the age, you can only get "paneh" if he was present before that.
IMO, Christ returns at the end of the current age. This is commonly referred to in the Bible as the day of the Lord. He vanquishes the enemies of Israel and rules and reigns for 1000 years. When he returns, he stands on the mount of Olives and there is a great earthquake, splitting the mountain in half. He says, all on earth will quake at my presence.[Ez 38] Once he returns, he is present and all the earth will be struck with fear and mourn when they see him. This will be an earth-shattering event. His return is described in the context of the war spoken of in Rev 19, which is the same war as Eze 38.
QuoteThe "abomination that causes desolation" is nowhere mentioned in all of the book of Ezekiel, just as nowhere in all of Rev 19 is there any mention of Gog & Magog.
Those specific words are not used there, nor are they used in Rev 20. However, Eze does talk about armies invading Jerusalem and Judea which is what the abomination is.
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land;
it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
--Eze 38
This is what Jesus referred to when he said in Mat 24--when you see this--flee for your life! This is the beginning of the last 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation--Daniel says, when you see this start counting in days to the return of Christ. Jesus will return to cut those days short and save the remnant of his people Israel. The Bible tells us 2/3's of them will be wiped out before the great tribulation ends.
IMO, This is what happens at the end of this age. The war of Eze 38 fits the description, incuding the return of Christ. Richardson's point is that Christ was present in Eze 38 prophecy causing the whole world to quake which we know happens when Christ returns at the end of this age. The fact that the war is repeated again at the end of 1000 years does not negate this.
"For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare,
on that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth,
shall quake at my presence" —Ezekiel 38:19–20
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.--Zech 14:4
Finally, Gog is an archon who is around now, around at the first war of Gog and magog, and around at the second war of Gog and magog. He doesn't just miraculously appear at the end of the millenium out of nowhere.
2 Son of man,
set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog,
the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and
prophesy against him, Eze 38
Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold,
I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: Eze 39
The word prince here refers to an archon, a supernatural being, in the same way that the word prince in the book of Daniel [prince of Persia] referrs to an archon fought by the archangel Michael. Gog is not human.
This is of course always my opinion. And as always, we can agree to disagree.
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145376#msg145376 date=1354120912]
Quote from: PaulNot in accordance to the timeline given in Rev 20:7-8, it's the only timeline given anywhere in the Bible for the Gog/Magog event which clearly is separated in time with Armageddon by 1000 years.......
QuoteI agree it's a nice timeline in Rev 20, but the timeline starts with Satan being cast into the pit and the beginning of the millenium reign of Christ.
The "timeline" actually starts with the opening day of the 70th week & is a continuous unfolding series of events, events that are parallel & congruent to other events are so noted.....there are several examples of this, but none in Rev 19 with Gog & Magog.
QuoteIt does not mention the war which was just covered in Rev 19
Huh? What "war"? The only war discussed in Rev 19 is the defeat of Anti-Christ & his armies.
Quote.... and which aligns in so many ways with Eze 38 and 39 as I attempted to show with scripture.
All you did was show how all battles conducted during any warfare end up with the same results, winner/loser, mayhem & death, birds of prey feeding on carcasses, etc; you might just as well as been talking about the American Civil War.
QuoteThat's for sure......but what age? The current one we are presently living in or the millennial age? If you want "paneh", you don't get it when Christ returns at the very end of the age, you can only get "paneh" if he was present before that.
QuoteHis return is described in the context of the war spoken of in Rev 19, which is the same war as Eze 38.
OK, then let's discuss that "context": The "abomination that causes desolation" is nowhere mentioned in all of the book of Ezekiel, just as nowhere in all of Rev 19 is there any mention of Gog & Magog. When Anti-christ came to Jerusalem, he not only enters it but destroys whole sections of the city & drives out it's resident saints, I don't see that in Ezek 38-39.
Your focus has only been on similarities. What about dis-similarities? Start focusing on one just like I pointed out, then maybe you'll understand better why there is no mention of Gog & Magog in Rev 19, it's the dis-similarity.
QuoteThose specific words are not used there, nor are they used in Rev 20.
I know, that's exactly the point I've been making.......
QuoteHowever, Eze does talk about armies invading Jerusalem and Judea
So by this line of reasoning, when Nebuchadnezzar invaded & sacked Jerusalem, that too is an applicable use of "context"? It's the same end result, so it must be the same war?
Quote16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.--Eze 38
"latter days" of what century?
QuoteThe war of Eze 38 fits the description,
Again, it fits the descriptions of lots of battles from time immemorial,
Quoteincuding the return of Christ.
Christ's return is nowhere mentioned in Eze 38. The fact of his "presence" , the "paneh" about which Richardson discussed is what is in play here.
QuoteRichardson's point is that Christ was present in Eze 38 prophecy causing the whole world to quake which we know happens when Christ returns at the end of this age.
Sure, and the that is not the only time the Bible speaks of the world in a quaking mode, or are you suggesting that everytime one reads in the Bible that the world quakes & shakes that it must always be referring to the same event?
QuoteThe fact that the war is repeated again at the end of 1000 years does not negate this.
Still looking for your evidence there's a "repeat", so it's negated until you come up with it.
QuoteFinally, Gog is an archon who is around now, around at the first war of Gog and magog, and around at the second war of Gog and magog. He doesn't just miraculously appear at the end of the millenium out of nowhere.
I have no idea what this means................or is that what you you discuss immediately below:
QuoteThe word prince here refers to an archon, a supernatural being, in the same way that the word prince in the book of Daniel [prince of Persia] referrs to an archon fought by the archangel Michael. Gog is not human.
Quote from: PaulWhen Anti-christ came to Jerusalem, he not only enters it but destroys whole sections of the city & drives out it's resident saints, I don't see that in Ezek 38-39
All of these passages are discussing the same end time event which will occur at the end of this age. It is called by Daniel 'the abomination that causes desolation'. It is a foreign army that invades Jerusalem and Judea. It starts the Great Tribulation, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble. It will mark the final 3.5 years of the age. Take it or leave it--it's my opinion.
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 9:27
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 11:31
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:11
15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea
flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
--Mat 24
20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that
the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea
flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
--Luke 21
in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
--Eze 38
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land;
it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
--Eze 38
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. Rev 19
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even
the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Jer 30:7
Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise.
There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145404#msg145404 date=1354157023]
Quote from: PaulWhen Anti-christ came to Jerusalem, he not only enters it but destroys whole sections of the city & drives out it's resident saints, I don't see that in Ezek 38-39
QuoteAll of these passages are discussing the same end time event which will occur at the end of this age. It is called by Daniel 'the abomination that causes desolation'. It is a foreign army that invades Jerusalem and Judea. It starts the Great Tribulation, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble. It will mark the final 3.5 years of the age. Take it or leave it--it's my opinion.
There's no disagreement on this timeline, the career of Anti-christ, it's right on the money. But this timeline & series of events cannot be found in the book of Ezekiel. Where in Ezek 38 & 39 is there any discussion that foreign armies make a successful invasion of Jerusalem as described above?
QuoteAnd arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 11:31
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:11
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Quote20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
So where in Ezekiel 38 & 39 do we find warnings for the inhabitants to flee the city of Jerusalem? In fact we find the opposite (Ezek 38:11), that God comes & defends the land & prevents these conditions from being repeated in contrast to 1000 years earlier, this is what all of Ezek 38 & 39 is all about, a thwarting of the efforts of the Chief Prince of Mesech & Tubal to recreate the the conditions of the 70th week of Daniels prophecy where the conditions inside Israel became so dire that 2/3rds of the population are murdered. Where do you see 2/3rds of the population of Jerusalem, or anywhere else in Israel, being murdered in Ezek 38 & 39?
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.--Mat 24
....and where is any of this found in Ezekiel?
Quote20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.--Luke 21
.....and what passage in Ezekiel does this fulfill?
The 38 & 39th chapters of Ezekiel contain absolutely no description of the events described in Luke 21. In fact the reverse is the case, the opening verses of chapter 39 sets up the battle conditions whereby the Gog/Magog invasion force is defeated. They obviously never make it to the city of Jerusalem because there is not one word of discussion in Ezek 38 or 39 about Jerusalem, only about certain unspecified "mountains" on Israel's north border, at which time the Gog/Magog invasion force is defeated.
Quotein the latter years
But in the "latter years" of what age? The context of Ezek 38 & 39 does not describe the age in which the events of Luke 21 occur. The context of Ezek 38 & 39 is found in Rev 20:9, this occurs "
when the thousand years are expired".
Quotethou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
And here is the land of Israel that has been "brought back from the sword", and this somehow fits into the Luke 21? How do you do that with diametrically opposite descriptions of the living conditions inside Israel? In Ezek 38:11 the Israelites are living safely & securely inside their borders & in 39:3-5 Gog's defeat occurs in an "open field", not inside Jerusalem.
Nowhere in all of Ezekiel 38-39 is there one word of mention that there are forces encompassing Jerusalem and entering it. Therefore it must be a different time, a different event.
QuoteDaniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.
And when is this occurring ? Can't be at the same time of Ezekiel 38:11 when Israel is safely dwelling in the land because the descriptions of events are the opposite of one another just as is also described in Luke 21.
QuoteNowhere in all of Ezekiel 38-39 is there one word of mention that there are forces encompassing Jerusalem and entering it. Therefore it must be a different time, a different event.
The great tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble:
in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
9
Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.--Eze 38
15 And thou shalt come from thy place
out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16
And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and
I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
--Eze 38
15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. --Mat 24
They threw dice to decide which of my people would be their slaves. They traded boys to obtain prostitutes and sold girls for enough wine to get drunk.
--Joel 3:3
In the whole land, declares the Lord,
two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, 'They are my people';
and they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'"
--Zech 13
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time [3 1/2 years].
--Rev 12
"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book--Dan 12
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145436#msg145436 date=1354199289]
QuoteNowhere in all of Ezekiel 38-39 is there one word of mention that there are forces encompassing Jerusalem and entering it. Therefore it must be a different time, a different event.
QuoteThe great tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble:
...and where is this found in Ezek 38 & 39? Ezek 38:11 explicitly states the opposite of this scenario, this being the case, it can't possibly be the same event occurring in the same age.
Quotein the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
So if they have been brought back from the sword once already as clearly stated here, then that it's about to happen for a second period of "latter years"? How many times must these people endure a 2/3rds decimation of their population?
Quote Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.--Eze 38
Yep, and also Rev 20:7-9.....and the invasion is stopped dead in it's tracks at Hammon-gog, Ezek 39:11, not at Armageddon. Two different battle sites, two different defeats. Anti-christ forces get their defeat at Armageddon, Gog/Magog forces get their defeat at Hammon-gog.
Quote16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.--Eze 38
Yep, also found in Rev 20:7-9....
Quote15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. --Mat 24
Not found in Ezekiel 38 & 39
QuoteThey threw dice to decide which of my people would be their slaves. They traded boys to obtain prostitutes and sold girls for enough wine to get drunk.
--Joel 3:3
In the whole land, declares the Lord,
two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, 'They are my people';
and they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'"
--Zech 13
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.--Rev 12
And where is any of this found in Ezekiel 38 & 39?
Ezekiel 38:11 states just the opposite.......this is at the conclusion of the millenium, not the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy as are the events you quote above.
Blow a trumpet in Zion;
sound an alarm on my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near,
2 a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
nor will be again after them
through the years of all generations.
3 Fire devours before them,
and behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them,
but behind them a desolate wilderness,
and nothing escapes them.
4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses,
and like war horses they run.
5 As with the rumbling of chariots,
they leap on the tops of the mountains,
like the crackling of a flame of fire
devouring the stubble,
like a powerful army
drawn up for battle.
6 Before them peoples are in anguish;
all faces grow pale.
7 Like warriors they charge;
like soldiers they scale the wall.
They march each on his way;
they do not swerve from their paths.
8 They do not jostle one another;
each marches in his path;
they burst through the weapons
and are not halted.
9 They leap upon the city,
they run upon the walls,
they climb up into the houses,
they enter through the windows like a thief.
10 The earth quakes before them;
the heavens tremble.
The sun and the moon are darkened,
and the stars withdraw their shining.
11 The Lord utters his voice
before his army,
for his camp is exceedingly great;
he who executes his word is powerful.
For the day of the Lord is great and very awesome;
who can endure it?
Return to the Lord
12 "Yet even now," declares the Lord,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;
13 and rend your hearts and not your garments."
Return to the Lord your God,
for he is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love;
and he relents over disaster.
14 Who knows whether he will not turn and relent,
and leave a blessing behind him,
a grain offering and a drink offering
for the Lord your God?
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion;
consecrate a fast;
call a solemn assembly;
16 gather the people.
Consecrate the congregation;
assemble the elders;
gather the children,
even nursing infants.
Let the bridegroom leave his room,
and the bride her chamber.
17 Between the vestibule and the altar
let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep
and say, "Spare your people, O Lord,
and make not your heritage a reproach,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
'Where is their God?'"
The Lord Had Pity
18 Then the Lord became jealous for his land
and had pity on his people.
19 The Lord answered and said to his people,
"Behold, I am sending to you
grain, wine, and oil,
and you will be satisfied;
and I will no more make you
a reproach among the nations.
20 "I will remove the northerner far from you,
and drive him into a parched and desolate land,
his vanguard into the eastern sea,
and his rear guard into the western sea;
the stench and foul smell of him will rise,
for he has done great things.
21 "Fear not, O land;
be glad and rejoice,
for the Lord has done great things!
22 Fear not, you beasts of the field,
for the pastures of the wilderness are green;
the tree bears its fruit;
the fig tree and vine give their full yield.
23 "Be glad, O children of Zion,
and rejoice in the Lord your God,
for he has given the early rain for your vindication;
he has poured down for you abundant rain,
the early and the latter rain, as before.
24 "The threshing floors shall be full of grain;
the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 I will restore to you the years
that the swarming locust has eaten,
the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter,
my great army, which I sent among you.
26 "You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied,
and praise the name of the Lord your God,
who has dealt wondrously with you.
And my people shall never again be put to shame.
27 You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
and that I am the Lord your God and there is none else.
And my people shall never again be put to shame.
The Lord Will Pour Out His Spirit
28 "And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
29 Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.
--Joel 2
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
--Luke 21
The times of the Gentiles are fulfilled at the end of the 3.5 years of the great tribulation.
No more will the stranger enter into Jerusalem.
In the first battle of Gog and magog, the land is overrun by hordes from the North.[Eze 38]
They are not stopped short, Paul. They cover the land like a cloud. Two thirds of those in Israel perish.
9 You will advance, coming on like a storm. You will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your hordes, and many peoples with you. Eze 38
In the second battle of Gog and magog, at the end of the millenium, they are not allowed to enter Jerusalem but are judged in the valley of Jehosephat.
"For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because [past tense: what they did in the first battle at the end of this age] they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land, 3 and have cast lots for my people, and have traded a boy for a prostitute, and have sold a girl for wine and have drunk it. Joel 3
I would like to suggest to all that we "discuss" the scriptures and our version of eschatology. It has been clearly stated in the rules of the forum that we ought to salt our posts with disclaimers like, "IMO" rather than enforcing our opinions with an attitude of empirical truth.
We have members on this forum from many differing perspectives on eschatology and it is a discussion forum, not a debate forum.
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Where in the world are there no flights on the sabbath
and the winters are brutal.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-05/israeli-proposal-to-make-sunday-day-of-rest-may-benefit-retail.html
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145440#msg145440 date=1354203317]
QuoteIn the first battle of Gog and magog, the land is overrun by hordes from the North.[Eze 38]
You inserted "overun".
QuoteThey are not stopped short, Paul
Yes they are, at Hammom-gog, long before they get to Jerusalem. Do you know where Hammon-gog is?
Ezek 39:2 They are "stopped short", Molly: "I am against thee O Gog, the chief prince of Mesech & Tubal:And I will turn thee back and leave but the sixth part of thee....."
QuoteTwo thirds of those in Israel perish.
Where is that stated in Ezek 38 or 39? The only numbers are those of the dead invaders, 5/6 of them perish.
In the battle of Gog and Magog, at the end of the millenium, they are not allowed to enter Jerusalem but are judged in the valley of Hammon-gog Ezek 39:11, this is not Jehosephat.
I'm locking this thread. This is way off track of UR and you're discussing matters that we can't change and that can't change our lives and there's no way of proving since scripture is not definitive (though it may seem so to each idea proponent)
My apologies to all that think this is a wrong move.
"The moderators of the forum would ask everyone to pay attention to the forum rules and keep the discussion in a spirit of sharing between members of the body of Christ."
2 Peter 1:20 Above all else, however, remember that none of us can explain by ourselves a prophecy in the Scriptures.
4 These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah: 5 "This is what the Lord says:
"'Cries of fear are heard—
terror, not peace.
6 Ask and see:
Can a man bear children?
Then why do I see every strong man
with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor,
every face turned deathly pale?
7 How awful that day will be!
No other will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
but he will be saved out of it.
8 "'In that day,' declares the Lord Almighty,
'I will break the yoke off their necks
and will tear off their bonds;
no longer will foreigners enslave them.
9 Instead, they will serve the Lord their God
and David their king,
whom I will raise up for them.
10 "'So do not be afraid, Jacob my servant;
do not be dismayed, Israel,'
declares the Lord.
'I will surely save you out of a distant place,
your descendants from the land of their exile.
Jacob will again have peace and security,
and no one will make him afraid.
11 I am with you and will save you,'
declares the Lord.
'Though I completely destroy all the nations
among which I scatter you,
I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
I will not let you go entirely unpunished.'
12 "This is what the Lord says:
"'Your wound is incurable,
your injury beyond healing.
13 There is no one to plead your cause,
no remedy for your sore,
no healing for you.
14 All your allies have forgotten you;
they care nothing for you.
I have struck you as an enemy would
and punished you as would the cruel,
because your guilt is so great
and your sins so many.
15 Why do you cry out over your wound,
your pain that has no cure?
Because of your great guilt and many sins
I have done these things to you.
16 "'But all who devour you will be devoured;
all your enemies will go into exile.
Those who plunder you will be plundered;
all who make spoil of you I will despoil.
17 But I will restore you to health
and heal your wounds,'
declares the Lord,
'because you are called an outcast,
Zion for whom no one cares.'
18 "This is what the Lord says:
"'I will restore the fortunes of Jacob's tents
and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city will be rebuilt on her ruins,
and the palace will stand in its proper place.
19 From them will come songs of thanksgiving
and the sound of rejoicing.
I will add to their numbers,
and they will not be decreased;
I will bring them honor,
and they will not be disdained.
20 Their children will be as in days of old,
and their community will be established before me;
I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their leader will be one of their own;
their ruler will arise from among them.
I will bring him near and he will come close to me—
for who is he who will devote himself
to be close to me?'
declares the Lord.
22 "'So you will be my people,
and I will be your God.'"
23 See, the storm of the Lord
will burst out in wrath,
a driving wind swirling down
on the heads of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand this.
--Jer 30
"Are not you Israelites
the same to me as the Cush-ites?"
declares the Lord.
"Did I not bring Israel up from Egypt,
the Philistines from Caphtor
and the Arameans from Kir?
8 "Surely the eyes of the Sovereign Lord
are on the sinful kingdom.
I will destroy it
from the face of the earth.
Yet I will not totally destroy
the descendants of Jacob,"
declares the Lord.
9 "For I will give the command,
and I will shake the people of Israel
among all the nations
as grain is shaken in a sieve,
and not a pebble will reach the ground.
10 All the sinners among my people
will die by the sword,
all those who say,
'Disaster will not overtake or meet us.'
Israel's Restoration
11 "In that day
"I will restore David's fallen shelter—
I will repair its broken walls
and restore its ruins—
and will rebuild it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name,"
declares the Lord, who will do these things.
13 "The days are coming," declares the Lord,
"when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills,
14 and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
"They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,"
says the Lord your God.
---Amos 9
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
--Dan 12
15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
--Mat 24
"'Prepare chains!
For the land is full of bloodshed,
and the city is full of violence.
24 I will bring the most wicked of nations
to take possession of their houses.
I will put an end to the pride of the mighty,
and their sanctuaries will be desecrated.
25 When terror comes,
they will seek peace in vain.
26 Calamity upon calamity will come,
and rumor upon rumor.
They will go searching for a vision from the prophet,
priestly instruction in the law will cease,
the counsel of the elders will come to an end.
27 The king will mourn,
the prince will be clothed with despair,
and the hands of the people of the land will tremble.
I will deal with them according to their conduct,
and by their own standards I will judge them.
"'Then they will know that I am the Lord.'"
--Eze 7
In the whole land," declares the Lord,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will put into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The Lord is our God.'"
--Zech 13
A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.
12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
20 On that day HOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.
--Zech 14
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
--Jude 1
Quote from: Molly on December 01, 2012, 01:13:51 AM
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Who do you think this is likely referring to? A nation, angelic host, the redeemed, etc.?
Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
(Luk 21:27)
Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
(Heb 12:22-23)
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
(Rev 21:2-3)
We all gonna have church with Jesus in the new age brothers and sisters! Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is is heaven :o)
Quote from: jabcat on December 01, 2012, 01:52:16 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 01, 2012, 01:13:51 AM
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Who do you think this is likely referring to? A nation, angelic host, the redeemed, etc.?
Yes, EW has put together a good group of scripture. Here are some things I am thinking but I will also have to put together the scripture for it. At the end of the age will be the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord will start the last 3.5 years of tribulation [Jacob's trouble] and last for 1000 years [the 1000 year millenium]--as Peter tells us, a day is like a 1000 years. At the end of the 3.5 years will be the event known as the 'rapture' which will be the gathering of the saints [living and dead], and this will be followed by Jesus and his holy ones [that's us] arriving on the scene to rule and reign for the millenium.
The church [us] are being judged now. The Jews will be judged in the last 3.5 year tribulation. At the return of Jesus [he will return to save the Jews], the world will be judged in righteousness for the 1000 years and all the world will learn righteousness. Sheep and goat nations will be separated [based on how they treated Israel, I think]. The goat nations will come to Jerusalem each year to celebrate Tabernacles. At the end of the 1000 year reign is the second resurrection and the great white throne judgment.
Don't forget I am reading this literally. There are certainly spiritual ways to read this, but that's not my job. :winkgrin: I'll work on scripture for this.
You're answering my next question, even though I hadn't asked it. It was "so before what eaglesway is saying will happen, what do you think will happen in the meantime"? :thumbsup:
I remember suggesting in another thread awhile back, that each new age is ushered in by a cataclysmic event(s)...the old doesn't seem to just pass quietly into the night. :Chinscratch:
I also see the second 3.5 years as a transition between the present age and the age to come, altho I believe the sons of God will be very active in it.....while the bride is being nourished in the wilderness- made ready for the wedding supper of the Lamb.
Quote from: jabcat on December 01, 2012, 04:48:54 AM
You're answering my next question, even though I hadn't asked it. It was "so before what eaglesway is saying will happen, what do you think will happen in the meantime"? :thumbsup:
I remember suggesting in another thread awhile back, that each new age is ushered in by a cataclysmic event(s)...the old doesn't seem to just pass quietly into the night. :Chinscratch:
Yes, I believe that what the early Christians went through [martydom, fed to lions, etc] in that transition is what the Jews will go through during the last 3.5 years in this next transition. When that is over will be 'the fulfillment of the Gentiles' and he will hold the two sticks in one hand of Ephraim and Judah going into the millenium.
Also, what EW said about the church being active in the last 3.5 years, Daniel speaks of 'wise ones' who will know what is happening, --it sounds like most of the church will not understand the attack on Israel--and these wise ones seem to be those who are speaking about Christ to the Jews in a foreign tongue [ implying they are not Hebrew speaking Jews, but Christians] spoken of by Isaiah.
For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the LORD will speak to this people, Isa 28:11
32 With flattery he [the Antichrist] will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.
--Dan 11
3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
--Dan 12
So the UN voted a state for Palestine yesterday :o)
Daniel tells us that at the time of the end, "many will run to and fro and knowledge will increase". He also proclaims, "Those who know their God will be strong and do exploits" and says, "Those who lead the many to righteousness will shine like the stars".
Jesus also says those who endure to the end shall be delivered.
The Lamb unsealed a book of revelations for John, and told him to leave it unsealed ("For the time is at hand") For this reason I believe all thes prophecies have "been being fulfilled"....but I also believe they will be consummated in the last time.
I believe the woman clothed in the sun in Revelation 12 is the church. I personally don't believe she gets raptured, I believe she gets carried into the wilderness(Come my children hide in your rooms for a while till my wrath is spent and the indignation is finished)- while a man-child company of mature disiples/sons remains at large "doing exploits" and "leading the many to righteousness"(the One New Man of Rev 10), and being martyred(souls under the altar cry "How Long Oh Lord" the answer "Till the rest of your brethren who are to be martyred fill up your number"), many receiving the martyrs crown.
Jesus prophesied of these days as well.
Notice Jesus saying, "As it was in the days of Noah"....Noah was placed in a protective ark with a remnant and delivered THROUGH the rain....."They did not understand UNTIL THE DOOR WAS SHUT" and the rain began to fall.
As it was in the days of Sodom and Gomorah.......They were led by angels out before the fire fell and hid in the caves-except for Lot's wife, who "went back for the things in her house".
He also said,
When you see these things REJOICE! for your redemption draws near, go up to the housetops and do not go back down for the things in your house....remember Lot's wife......Two were in the field, ONE WAS TAKEN ONE WAS LEFT.....Two were at the wheel, ONE WAS TAKEN ONE WAS LEFT.
He gave the parable of the wise and the foolish virgins. They were ALL virgins, meaning, IMO, believers.
Even now the voice cries out, "The Bridegroom Comes" and the virgins all rise but only HALF (five were taken five were left)have oil in their vessels and can make in BEFORE THE DOOR CLOSES.......What door? The WEDDING SUPPER. Why does the Bride go into the wilderness(Rev 12)....to be nourished, to be adorned, to be prepared for her UNVEILING BEFORE MEN.
And I saw the New Jerusalem, the holy city coming down out of heaven adorned in white linen(the righteous acts of the saints), prepared as a Bride for the Bridegroom.
IMO, This is not about guns and armies(tho there will be plenty, wars and rumors of war)....it is about the manifestation of the sons of God(exploits) and the unveiling of the Bride(a woman in the heavens clothed in the sun with stars on her head) as we transition into the thousand year reign, a kingdom of priests for the administration of an age of reconciliation and the restoration of all things in which the word of the Lord will cover the earth as the water covers the sea, and a man who dies at 80 will be considered accursed and a child will play by an adders den and the lion will lay down with the Lamb.
A transition where the mountain of the Lord will be raised above all the other mountains and the law will go out from Jerusalem and the nations will stream to the light of her rising......our mother, the Jerusalem from above, is free.....Can a nation be born in a day? Will the Lord bring to bear and not bring to birth? Can a baby be born a full grown man?
What happened one the day of Pentecost?(early rain)- ALL OF THESE THINGS :o)
The WORD OF THE LORD GREW AND MULTIPLIED(and the word of the Lord will cover the earth as the water covers the sea)
The LORD WORKED WITH THEM CONFIRMING THE WORD WITH SIGNS AND WONDERS FOLLOWING(Those who know their God will be strong and do exploits)
THEY WERE ALL AS ONE SOUL(The lion lay down with the LAmb)
THEY HAD ALL THINGS IN COMMON(the child plays by the adders den)
The NATIONS FLOWED INTO THE NEW JERUSALEM(and the Lord added daily to those who were appointed to deliverance)
The MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD ROSE ABOVE THE OTHER MOUNTAINS (they were held in high esteem by the surrounding people because of the things God was doing in their midst)
LEVIATHAN WAS SLAIN(Simon the sorcerer and Elymas the sorcerer struck powerless and their subjects DELIVERED)(Isaiah 27)
The VINEYARD BLOSSOMED(Isaiah27)
Peter proclaimed it, "THIS IS THAT which was prophesied by the prophet Joel,
It shall come to pass in the last days says the Lord that I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and daughters will prophecy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams and I will pour out of my Spirit upon ALL FLESH"
Think what would happen if this were to take place in the Jerualem of today, or in New York City, or in Bagdad. I believe the latter rain will, as Jabcat so aptly put it, cause this age to "go out with a bang" :o)
As glorious as the dawn of the church age was, there will be more glory as the DAY is ushered in FULL NOON.
"And the Spirit and the Bride say Come, All Ye That Thirst Drink Freely From the Water of Life"
Sorry, I get so excited HAHAHA :o)
...in regard to Jude and Enoch's prophecy of the coming wrath on the ungodly and their works........
ungodliness is the absence of God's spirit.. and another in operation.also we need to remember that in the last days
He shall pour out His spirit on all flesh.So it is not 'man" Adam...that is the twice dead....twice judged.....
Jesus said the prince of this world is judged in His day..and saw him fall from heaven.. to the earth
and he shall again be judged in the earth..as that wicked generation that perishes in the wilderness...
....it is nothing other than the destruction of the wicked contrast spirit..that is done away with the breath[spirit]
of His coming.
there are six things even seven that are an abomination unto the Lord...these spirituaistic characteristics identify
the ungodly works..and the 'mark of the beast" which is an abomination that causes desolation.
A malicious man[man of sin with satan entered him/contrast spirit/liar and mankiller from beginning.
[Proverbs/WISDOM ch 26;24-28 disguises himself with his lips......but in his heart he harbours deceit
[satan disguised self as serpent/in garden..entered Judas/beasts and man[sin entered=evil contrast
spirit entered flesh of man]
For seven abominations fill his heart[see Jesus parable about evil spirit bringing seven more with him
and the worse state of that man]
his malice may be concealed by deception, but his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly
Ecc 3 in the place of judgement..wickedness was there
Proverbs 6;16 there are six things the Lord hates..even seven
1. haughty eyes/arrogance/pride[remember pharisees sadducees Jesus day]
2. a lying tongue[remember false wittness at court said Jesus would tear down temple]
3. hands that shed innocent blood[they condemned an innocent man]
4. a heart that devises a wicked scheme[why are you trying to kill me?]
5. feet that are quick to rush to evil[what you are doing do quickly[spoken to Judas after satan entered]
6.a false wittness who pours out lies[it is by baazebub he casts out demons]
7. and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers[love for your brother as yourself is the i.d. of God's spirit
stir up dissension is i.d. of evil contrast spirit.]
the wisdom scriptures have provided the mark of the beast and the abomination..that the Lord promises
to do away with the breath/spirit of His coming..
.
The men in that shape..man of sin[666] serve as examples of the 'works' of this
evil contrast spirit that Jesus come to 'break up"[a house divided against itself can not stand=add holy spirit
to break them up]
seven spirits of the church with Christ..[clouds of heavenly dew on the mind of the beast] wetted with dew
of heaven[clouds]
when God sent his son to Jerusalem..this abomination was in the Lord's house..sitting in then men
in religious power and authority...it caused the desolation of their spiritual house.
Jesus told the disciples that their righteousness must exceed the pharisees..and so too...Christian
churches/believers.
Proverbs 6;16 is not 666 is it.....wisdom scriptures...man of sin to be revealed number of man's name
anyone know gemantria.?.it is not my gift
Molly, I am curious about your perspective on the UN vote. I see it as a definite HUGE prophetic bombshell timing wise. A big step towards the covenant in the midst of the week and the abomination that makes desolate. The Palestinians are already pushing for the opening of Jerusalem and Israel is already reacting against it by pouring more settlers into Gaza. Seems like the carrion are gathering around the corpse.
The world will be so concerned about the threat of war in the middle east that someone who could come along and broker a "Peace and Safety" treaty between the combatants could become the "president of the U.N." and usher in the one world government.
I was thinking that there is an interesting possibility. The bodies of the dead will be raised on the Day and re-united with their spirit and be immortal......
Maybe old Jerusalem below, will be re-united with new Jerusalem from above and the corpse will be raised incorruptible and immortal, the natural consumed by the spiritual and made "all glorious within". Even as the devil moved to slay all the first-born of Israel in order to prevent Moses the deliverer, and moved the Assyrians to prevent Hezekiah the restorer, and moved Herod to prevent Jesus, and moved Hitler to prevent restored Israel----- this last confederation of nations that will surround the holy city is the evil ones way of seeking to prevent the restoration of all things and the age to come and the salvation of Israel.
Beauty[Jerusalem above] and Bands [Jerusalemthat is now] are prophesied to become ONE IN HIS HANDS...
as to exactly how He shall fulfill it..is to be seen.
the making of the One New Man..is taking away the wall that seperates the two. to me..that can be
the reconciling of flesh man/all in Adam..becoming one with the spiritual son of God born from Above
[I will pour out my spirit on all flesh...thus sanctifying..making 'whole' or one with God]
he that was from below[in flesh as son of God] being born from above/spirit poured out. thus the two-part
man. Adam corruptible..receiving power[spirit] to become incorruptible sons of God[from above/free woman]
Quote from: sheila on December 01, 2012, 09:27:39 PM
...in regard to Jude and Enoch's prophecy of the coming wrath on the ungodly and their works........
ungodliness is the absence of God's spirit.. and another in operation.also we need to remember that in the last days
He shall pour out His spirit on all flesh.So it is not 'man" Adam...that is the twice dead....twice judged.....
Jesus said the prince of this world is judged in His day..and saw him fall from heaven.. to the earth
and he shall again be judged in the earth..as that wicked generation that perishes in the wilderness...
....it is nothing other than the destruction of the wicked contrast spirit..that is done away with the breath[spirit]
of His coming.
there are six things even seven that are an abomination unto the Lord...these spirituaistic characteristics identify
the ungodly works..and the 'mark of the beast" which is an abomination that causes desolation.
A malicious man[man of sin with satan entered him/contrast spirit/liar and mankiller from beginning.
[Proverbs/WISDOM ch 26;24-28 disguises himself with his lips......but in his heart he harbours deceit
[satan disguised self as serpent/in garden..entered Judas/beasts and man[sin entered=evil contrast
spirit entered flesh of man]
For seven abominations fill his heart[see Jesus parable about evil spirit bringing seven more with him
and the worse state of that man]
his malice may be concealed by deception, but his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly
Ecc 3 in the place of judgement..wickedness was there
Proverbs 6;16 there are six things the Lord hates..even seven
1. haughty eyes/arrogance/pride[remember pharisees sadducees Jesus day]
2. a lying tongue[remember false wittness at court said Jesus would tear down temple]
3. hands that shed innocent blood[they condemned an innocent man]
4. a heart that devises a wicked scheme[why are you trying to kill me?]
5. feet that are quick to rush to evil[what you are doing do quickly[spoken to Judas after satan entered]
6.a false wittness who pours out lies[it is by baazebub he casts out demons]
7. and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers[love for your brother as yourself is the i.d. of God's spirit
stir up dissension is i.d. of evil contrast spirit.]
the wisdom scriptures have provided the mark of the beast and the abomination..that the Lord promises
to do away with the breath/spirit of His coming..
.
The men in that shape..man of sin[666] serve as examples of the 'works' of this
evil contrast spirit that Jesus come to 'break up"[a house divided against itself can not stand=add holy spirit
to break them up]
seven spirits of the church with Christ..[clouds of heavenly dew on the mind of the beast] wetted with dew
of heaven[clouds]
when God sent his son to Jerusalem..this abomination was in the Lord's house..sitting in then men
in religious power and authority...it caused the desolation of their spiritual house.
Jesus told the disciples that their righteousness must exceed the pharisees..and so too...Christian
churches/believers.
Proverbs 6;16 is not 666 is it.....wisdom scriptures...man of sin to be revealed number of man's name
anyone know gemantria.?.it is not my gift
Sheila you have a style of presentation that I find easy to digest.
The nutrients of such that grow my Spirit.
Wisdom From Above,
Wisdom From Below
Mixture of Both
James 3:11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water(mixture)? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.
13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic(evil contrast spirit/spirit of dissension). 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy(spirit of God/spirit of reconciliation). 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8 being a double-minded man(mixture), unstable in all his ways.
when the eye is single, the whole body is full of light
where your heart is, there will your treasure be also
Quote from: jabcat on December 01, 2012, 01:52:16 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 01, 2012, 01:13:51 AM
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Who do you think this is likely referring to? A nation, angelic host, the redeemed, etc.?
Once more I shake the earth, not just earth but heavens also. There is a judgment upon the ungodly sinners who will be blasted with his nostrils. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Who is man that sayeth it not cometh to pass, does not evil and good proceed from Him.
How can these be the end days when so many need a saviour who delivered us from the wrath to come. Asia is exploding in believers.
Quote from: thinktank on December 02, 2012, 11:06:47 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 01, 2012, 01:52:16 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 01, 2012, 01:13:51 AM
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Who do you think this is likely referring to? A nation, angelic host, the redeemed, etc.?
Once more I shake the earth, not just earth but heavens also. There is a judgment upon the ungodly sinners who will be blasted with his nostrils. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Who is man that sayeth it not cometh to pass, does not evil and good proceed from Him.
How can these be the end days when so many need a saviour who delivered us from the wrath to come. Asia is exploding in believers.
Again, thinking literally, I do think huge numbers of people all over the world will be saved at the end of this age. The Bible tells us as much.
9 After this I looked, and there before me was
a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13 Then one of the elders asked me,
"These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?" 14 I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said,
"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
--Revelation 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsExYk0NMVw
The day of the Lord is mentioned in many places as being the beginning of the 3.5 year great tribulation at the end of the age.
This is the time of Jacob's trouble. Elijah will again precede the Lord before that 'great and terrible day,' and the Jews always put out a 5th cup, left empty, for Elijah at the Passover Seder, awaiting the return of Elijah. I suspect Elijah will return as one of the two witnesses who will preach to the Jews during the 3.5 years.
"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the Lord Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the Lord Almighty.
4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
5 "See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction."
--Mal 4
Both Daniel and Jesus cite this day as beginning when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place [Dan 9, 11, 12, Mat 24,], the armies compassing Jerusalem [Luke 21]. Jesus tells us when you see this, all those in Judea, run to the mountains. Daniel tells us, when you see this, start counting the days to the return of Christ.
What I would like to propose here is that the day of the Lord starts at the beginning of the great tribulation and continues for 1000 years.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 2 Peter 3:8
This will be the thousand year rule and reign of Christ with his saints. It actually begins before the end of this age with the judgment of Israel and the great tribulation.
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord, as in days gone by, as in former years.
5 "So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty.
16 Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name.
17 "On the day when I act," says the Lord Almighty, "they will be my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as a father has compassion and spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.
--Malachi 3
We know from Daniel and elsewhere that this initial judgment [the great tribulation] will be harsh but the Jews written in the book will be saved out of it.. We also know that during the thousand year reign, Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. The outcome of this will be a world in which righteousness reigns. This is a 1000 year period of continuous judgment by the Lord and his saints. Yet the outcome will be good.
Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
He will judge the world in righteousness; he will govern the peoples with justice.
--Psa 9:8
Psalm 67:4 May the nations be glad and sing for joy, for you rule the peoples justly and guide the nations of the earth. Selah
Psalm 96:10 Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.
A thousand years of judgment may seem extreme to some, but it will be a glorious time for the world.
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
--Isa 26:9
I have a lot more to say about this. This is a beginning of the discussion. Remember, again, I am reading this literally.
Hi Molly: I'm always interested in your Scripture references--often they provide an answer or lead me to a verse that answers some of the many questions that arise as I attempt to put together one of the final chapters for my book: "Out of Love, For His Glory, God created..." The tentative title for this chapter is Fulness of the Gentiles/Fulness of Christ.
But, yeah there's always a "but"!!! I'm a bit confused, you mention a thousand years, then throw in 2 Pet 3:8 a day like a thousand years, then go back to a thousand years ?????????
also when you use the word "literally" are you actually indicating that the end time events will be visible to the physical eye... like a physical Elijah... etc.
Thanks Molly.
It's something that is recently developing for me, GR.
We know we often take that 1000 years is like a day literally when we count six thousand years from Adam to today as the 6 days of creation, and see the 7000th years as the day of rest. But, when I realized Christ will be judging the world in righteousness during that 7th day, which is also the 7000 year from Adam, which will last 1000 years, I started to see that there was more to this than meets the eye. Like I said, we often think of God's judgment as a frightful thing, but if the end result is a wonderful place to live, where righteousness reigns, where the lion lies down with the lamb, where the desert blooms with the rose--this will be the result of righteousness being in the earth continually in the very presence of Jesus Christ.
The government will literally be on his shoulders.
So, then I asked myself, if this is the day of the Lord [1000 years rule and reign], when does it begin? I hope to show scripture that will demonstrate it begins with the abomination that causes desolation. Remember these armies are brought to judge the nation of Israel by God himself--even though Jesus shows up 3.5 years later to cut the days short and save the remnant of Israel.
This also culminates the fulfillment of the Gentiles, as the Gentiles are allowed to trample the city for those last 3.5 years. [We who are in Christ are no longer Gentiles]. These gentiles and all the gentile nations which came against Israel will also be judged by Christ when he returns, as he separates the sheep and goat nations.
This is what I think--at the beginning of the thousands years reign of Christ, part of the earth will be restored to Eden [the part that Israel occupies in the middle east], and the sons of God will be restored to where Adam was when he was created as lord of the earth, with Jesus as Lord of lords. But, there will still be people on the outside, who can be brought into the kingdom during that time, but far more effectively than is true today because our Lord will be reigning.
This is why Revelation ends with an almost casual attitude towards those who are good and those who are evil, because provision is being made to handle it, and it will be handled, imo.
10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy."
12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
--Revelation 22
Quote from: GRalso when you use the word "literally" are you actually indicating that the end time events will be visible to the physical eye... like a physical Elijah... etc.
well, yes I do, but I am willing to be flexible lol.
As you know, John the Baptist is called Elijah by Jesus, and from that I take that John had been given the spirit of Elijah.
But, we see at the transfiguration both Moses and Elijah standing there talking with Jesus, and they are all shining with light. [that's the way I see it in my mind's eye.]
Remember, this event happens at Tabernacles, which is why Peter [so cute] offers to erect shelters [booths] for all of them. Peter takes the presence of Elijah and Moses as literal, but Jesus is also showing us a future tabernacles, I believe, when the sons of God are manifested.
So my answer is yes, a literal Elijah, the very one the Jews are waiting for to announce their Messiah, and we know these two witnesses of the last 3.5 years will have supernatural powers.
Quote from: Molly on December 03, 2012, 03:51:08 AM
Quote from: GRalso when you use the word "literally" are you actually indicating that the end time events will be visible to the physical eye... like a physical Elijah... etc.
well, yes I do, but I am willing to be flexible lol.
As you know, John the Baptist is called Elijah by Jesus, and from that I take that John had been given the spirit of Elijah.
But, we see at the transfiguration both Moses and Elijah standing there talking with Jesus, and they are all shining with light. [that's the way I see it in my mind's eye.]
Remember, this event happens at Tabernacles, which is why Peter [so cute] offers to erect shelters [booths] for all of them. Peter takes the presence of Elijah and Moses as literal, but Jesus is also showing us a future tabernacles, I believe, when the sons of God are manifested.
So my answer is yes, a literal Elijah, the very one the Jews are waiting for to announce their Messiah, and we know these two witnesses of the last 3.5 years will have supernatural powers.
Thanks Molly for both of your posts. I'm printing both of them for use in my study as well as in my prayer time. I must shut down for the night. I'm an early riser... again many thanks, Molly --you are such a blessing.
That the feast of Tabernacles is the one feast preserved throughout the millenium reign of Christ indicates that this is the one feast that will not be fulfilled until the whole world is at-one-ment with God. The three fall feasts, trumpets, atonement, and tabernacles are called the feasts of prophecy because they are yet to be fulfilled. Of these three, only tabernacles remains open to be fulfilled, as offered to the peoples of the world during the 1000 year reign of Christ.
We see at the end of the book of Revelation, the bride and the Lamb are beckoning those without the holy city to wash their robes with the blood of the Lamb and become a part of the kingdom. The implications of this is that all will eventually be saved by grace.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
--Rev 22
This day of the Lord, also known as the day of rest or the 7th day of creation week will last for 1000 years.
Molly
-----------------------------------
Traditionally, Psalm 27 is recited at the service of the Feast of Tabernacles. Bible prophecy tells us that people from the nations of the world will come up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles with the Jewish people in Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain" (Zech. 14:16-17).
During the Millennium Kingdom when Christ will rule for a thousand years from His throne in Jerusalem all the nations of the earth will be commanded to come and celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. If they refuse to come, which means that they are not trusting in the Lord for their substance and living. Therefore the Lord will withhold rain from their nation as punishment and the natural result of refusing God's provision. Further it also pictures that God will not pour out the Holy Spirit on those who refuse His offer of salvation, who are invited to come and receive freely His mercy and grace.
According to God's instructions on the first day of the feast thirteen bullocks were offered and each day that followed on less bullock was offered which meant that seventy were offered. Two things characterized the Feast of Tabernacle from the other feasts. One was the illumination of the Temple and the other the pouring of a vessel of water into a basin that was located at the base of the altar. First the golden vessel of water was filled at the pool of Sloam and taken to the altar. Next another golden vessel would be filled with wine and they both would be poured together into the basin. The mixed water and wine would flow down a conduit which carried the water to the Brook of Kidron located across from the eastern wall.
This was ritual symbolized the prayer for the Fall rains upon which Israel depended. Second it pictured the coming of the Messiah and His kingdom in which the Holy Spirit would be poured on Israel and believers of all nations. This ritual of water pouring was continued for six days and concluded the Feast of TabernaclesThis last day was called the "Day of the Great Hosanan" (Hoshannah Rabbah). The word "Hoshannah" means to "save now." and applied to the feast became "Hosanna" which looked forward to the coming of the Messiah.
This makes the event of Jesus entering the city in what is called the 'Triumphant Entry" come alive for us as we under its significance. John records in John 12:13 that as Jesus entered Jerusalem the people. " Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord." They were crying "Save us, Son of David." Matthew 21:15 records the chief priest and scribes became gravely upset because this greeting and prayer was reserved only for the coming of the Messiah. Mark records that the people also cried "Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest." (Mark 11:10).
Following His entry into Jerusalem Jesus went to the Temple and proclaimed "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38-39). The words "In the last day" means that this event occurred on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles.
Another feature of the feast is was illumination of the Temple. The pilgrims who came to the Temple would bring lights and torches. Further the golden lamps stands would also be lighted illuminating the Temple. This too prophetically looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. Jesus the Messiah identified Himself as that saving light in John 8:12 saying " Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."
Paul when he arrived in Antioch in Pisidia (Asia) proclaim this truth to the Jews there saying, "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth" (Acts 13:47). Paul preached that he was sent to take this light, which was the Gospel of Jesus Christ, unto all the world.
http://bible-truth.org/Feasts-Tabernacles.html
The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
2 When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.
3 Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.
4 One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to enquire in his temple.
5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord.
7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.
8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.
9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.
10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up.
11 Teach me thy way, O Lord, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies.
12 Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.
13 I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
14 Wait on the Lord: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the Lord.
--Psa 27
Quote from: Molly on December 03, 2012, 08:27:33 AM
Of these three, only tabernacles remains open to be fulfilled, as offered to the peoples of the world during the 1000 year reign of Christ.
We see at the end of the book of Revelation, the bride and the Lamb are beckoning those without the holy city to wash their robes with the blood of the Lamb and become a part of the kingdom. The implications of this is that all will eventually be saved by grace.
:dsunny: :angelharp: :happyclap:
For those interested in Bigfoot, and the new work done on them by researchers like David Paulides, here are some pictures drawn by a police forensic sketch artist based on the face to face descriptions given to him by eye witnesses of the creature. You can see they are much more human looking than before thought. If you double click on the picture you can make it bigger.
http://harveypratt.com/store/index.cfm/category/8/bigfoot-art.cfm
What's interesting to me about Bigfoot is his size, 8 to 10 feet tall and 600 pounds.
One can't help but think they are reminiscent of Nephilim.
They have been sighted in almost every state in the union.
Quote from: Molly on December 03, 2012, 11:43:08 AM
For those interested in Bigfoot, and the new work done on them by researchers like David Paulides, here are some pictures drawn by a police forensic sketch artist based on the face to face descriptions given to him by eye witnesses of the creature. You can see they are much more human looking than before thought. If you double click on the picture you can make it bigger.
http://harveypratt.com/store/index.cfm/category/8/bigfoot-art.cfm
What's interesting to me about Bigfoot is his size, 8 to 10 feet tall and 600 pounds.
One can't help but think they are reminiscent of Nephilim.
They have been sighted in almost every state in the union.
thanks Molly... it's always good to be reminded of those Nephilim... need to look into that some more.
Quote from: Molly on December 03, 2012, 11:43:08 AM
For those interested in Bigfoot, and the new work done on them by researchers like David Paulides, here are some pictures drawn by a police forensic sketch artist based on the face to face descriptions given to him by eye witnesses of the creature. You can see they are much more human looking than before thought. If you double click on the picture you can make it bigger.
http://harveypratt.com/store/index.cfm/category/8/bigfoot-art.cfm
What's interesting to me about Bigfoot is his size, 8 to 10 feet tall and 600 pounds.
One can't help but think they are reminiscent of Nephilim.
They have been sighted in almost every state in the union.
I think he is very human looking- if I didn't know better I would swear it is Lon Chaney.
Quote from: goodreport on December 03, 2012, 03:39:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 03, 2012, 11:43:08 AM
For those interested in Bigfoot, and the new work done on them by researchers like David Paulides, here are some pictures drawn by a police forensic sketch artist based on the face to face descriptions given to him by eye witnesses of the creature. You can see they are much more human looking than before thought. If you double click on the picture you can make it bigger.
http://harveypratt.com/store/index.cfm/category/8/bigfoot-art.cfm
What's interesting to me about Bigfoot is his size, 8 to 10 feet tall and 600 pounds.
One can't help but think they are reminiscent of Nephilim.
They have been sighted in almost every state in the union.
Speaking of reminiscening, this very morning I began wondering about Daniel and his three friends... Molly, do you see the "reappearance" (reminiscent) of Daniel and his three friends?
Also, it's interesting to me that the four were given new names ... Just wondering....
I think Daniel was a smooth man, but Esau was a hairy man though.
Quote from: Molly on December 01, 2012, 04:38:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 01, 2012, 01:52:16 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 01, 2012, 01:13:51 AM
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Who do you think this is likely referring to? A nation, angelic host, the redeemed, etc.?
Yes, EW has put together a good group of scripture. Here are some things I am thinking but I will also have to put together the scripture for it. At the end of the age will be the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord will start the last 3.5 years of tribulation [Jacob's trouble] and last for 1000 years [the 1000 year millenium]--as Peter tells us, a day is like a 1000 years. At the end of the 3.5 years will be the event known as the 'rapture' which will be the gathering of the saints [living and dead], and this will be followed by Jesus and his holy ones [that's us] arriving on the scene to rule and reign for the millenium.
The church [us] are being judged now. The Jews will be judged in the last 3.5 year tribulation. At the return of Jesus [he will return to save the Jews], the world will be judged in righteousness for the 1000 years and all the world will learn righteousness. Sheep and goat nations will be separated [based on how they treated Israel, I think]. The goat nations will come to Jerusalem each year to celebrate Tabernacles. At the end of the 1000 year reign is the second resurrection and the great white throne judgment.
Don't forget I am reading this literally. There are certainly spiritual ways to read this, but that's not my job. :winkgrin: I'll work on scripture for this.
Molly, I've come to rely on the Scriptures that you read "literally"--makes my job much easier, less time-consuming, more productive. I need a better understanding of the physical realities as recorded in the Scriptures (OT/NT) in order to understand the spiritual truths revealed/taught by those physical realities.
I came across something the other day..written of a messianic jew..on Isaaih 9,10 called the
9 harbingers of judgement. I was wondering if any of you guys had come across it. there are really
some shocking parellels to Isreal's judgement and the usa. I,with reading this..and EW'S comment
the other day about usa being Isreal's 'gourd plant' and Molly's comment on the cup for Elijah...
just find it very interesting. sycamore uprooted at ground zero....pine tree planted..etc.....motto
of defiance 'we will rebuild BIGGER BETTER"
Quote from: sheila on December 04, 2012, 12:13:30 AM
I came across something the other day..written of a messianic jew..on Isaaih 9,10 called the
9 harbingers of judgement. I was wondering if any of you guys had come across it. there are really
some shocking parellels to Isreal's judgement and the usa. I,with reading this..and EW'S comment
the other day about usa being Isreal's 'gourd plant' and Molly's comment on the cup for Elijah...
just find it very interesting. sycamore uprooted at ground zero....pine tree planted..etc.....motto
of defiance 'we will rebuild BIGGER BETTER"
I saw that on Benny Hinns show. Interesting that there was the first meeting on Independence.
..there's video of it on you-tube,TT. shows a picture of the uprooted sycamore at ground zero. Did' you find
it interesting?
Is this it, Sheila?
[click to skip introduction] but still listening...
The Harbinger - Rabbi Cahn, Full Version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXei0Zb3dxM
yep, that's it Molly. thanks for putting up the link girl :HeartThrob:
Molly, I just noticed your reply. I've been so distracted all day... I live in a senior housing apartment complex...we've had three or four ambulances here within less than 48 hrs.....
I did modify my posts to you a bit earlier... basically I was just interested in learning whether or not you anticipate a reappearance of Daniel and his three friends... I guess I was thinking about Elijah's return... but of course the Scriptures do tell us that he will whereas there is no mention of Daniel and his three friends coming again...
so I decided to modify my post to you... but it seems you were replying at the same time that I was modifying...well I did say I've been distracted. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Quote from: goodreport on December 04, 2012, 04:50:42 AM
Molly, I just noticed your reply. I've been so distracted all day... I live in a senior housing apartment complex...we've had three or four ambulances here within less than 48 hrs.....
I did modify my posts to you a bit earlier... basically I was just interested in learning whether or not you anticipate a reappearance of Daniel and his three friends... I guess I was thinking about Elijah's return... but of course the Scriptures do tell us that he will whereas there is no mention of Daniel and his three friends coming again...
so I decided to modify my post to you... but it seems you were replying at the same time that I was modifying...well I did say I've been distracted. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Ok, that makes things a lot easier.
This is all it says about Daniel, that he will be present at the first resurrection, having won the lottery! :winkgrin:
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest,
and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. Dan 12
GR...I anticipate them all being in the Heavenly Host accompanying Him..what's more...those in Christ
are ONE with them all....the GREAT CLOUD/GREAT CROWD of wittnesses.
Jeremiah 30
5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Matthew 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
---------------------------------------
Jeremiah 30
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Matthew 24
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremiah 30
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
Matthew 24
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
Luke 17:27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
"But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet." (I Thessalonians 5:4-8)
"For the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets. Amos 3
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
--Eph 6
So,
apparently there has been a preliminary release on DNA testing of Bigfoot hair which shows a novel hybrid species originating from a human mother [mitochondrial] and a nonhuman father of unknown origin dating back 15000 years. Apparently the father's DNA has no match so far in the thousands of DNA samples in current databases.
Not that I want to jump to conclusions or anything but...
Then the people began to multiply on the earth, and daughters were born to them. 2 The sons of God saw the beautiful women and took any they wanted as their wives.
4 In those days, and for some time after, giant Nephilites lived on the earth, for whenever the sons of God had intercourse with women, they gave birth to children who became the heroes and famous warriors of ancient times.
--Gen 6
Bigfoot DNA Breakthrough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VQfQm3VeHY
Meet your Uncle Bigfoot: DNA report claims beast part human
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49980829/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/meet-your-uncle-bigfoot-dna-report-claims-beast-part-human/
Here you go. Merry Christmas! [Alright, it's not one of the feasts, but I won't be bullied out of loving Christmas] :declare:
JOEL 2:1 Blow the Shofar in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand:
The Seven Festivals of the Messiah
By Edward Chumney
"One of the most fascinating, yet probably one of the least understood, topics in the Bible is that of the feasts listed in Leviticus. In a step-by-step examination of each festival, you will learn foundational truths and the prophetic connections to Jesus' first and second comings . This book will give tremendous insight into your personal relationship with God!"
http://www.breadoflifebiblestudy.com/Lessons/10MinistryForTheBeliever/Articles/FeastsOverview.pdf
Joel 2 is one of the reasons that I believe that the day of the LORD will begin with the invasion of Israel by a hostile army [the overspreading of the abomination that makes desolate]. At the end of 3.5 years, Jesus will return to fight on Israel's behalf. I believe Joel is giving us a truncated timeline of these last 3.5 years. I believe the day of the LORD will then continue for 1000 years [for a day is as a thousand years], it will be as 1 day of judgment, and all the world will learn righteousness.
Blow the trumpet in Zion;
sound the alarm on my holy hill.
Let all who live in the land tremble,
for the day of the Lord is coming.
It is close at hand—
2 a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness.
Like dawn spreading across the mountains
a large and mighty army comes,
such as never was in ancient times
nor ever will be in ages to come.
3 Before them fire devours,
behind them a flame blazes.
Before them the land is like the garden of Eden,
behind them, a desert waste—
nothing escapes them.
4 They have the appearance of horses;
they gallop along like cavalry.
5 With a noise like that of chariots
they leap over the mountaintops,
like a crackling fire consuming stubble,
like a mighty army drawn up for battle.
6 At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;
every face turns pale.
7 They charge like warriors;
they scale walls like soldiers.
They all march in line,
not swerving from their course.
8 They do not jostle each other;
each marches straight ahead.
They plunge through defenses
without breaking ranks.
9 They rush upon the city;
they run along the wall.
They climb into the houses;
like thieves they enter through the windows.
10 Before them the earth shakes,
the heavens tremble,
the sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
11 The Lord thunders
at the head of his army;
his forces are beyond number,
and mighty is the army that obeys his command.
The day of the Lord is great;
it is dreadful.
Who can endure it?
Rend Your Heart
12 "Even now," declares the Lord,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning."
13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the Lord your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.
14 Who knows? He may turn and relent
and leave behind a blessing—
grain offerings and drink offerings
for the Lord your God.
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
declare a holy fast,
call a sacred assembly.
16 Gather the people,
consecrate the assembly;
bring together the elders,
gather the children,
those nursing at the breast.
Let the bridegroom leave his room
and the bride her chamber.
17 Let the priests, who minister before the Lord,
weep between the portico and the altar.
Let them say, "Spare your people, Lord.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
'Where is their God?'"
The Lord's Answer
18 Then the Lord was jealous for his land
and took pity on his people.
19 The Lord replied to them:
"I am sending you grain, new wine and olive oil,
enough to satisfy you fully;
never again will I make you
an object of scorn to the nations.
20 "I will drive the northern horde far from you,
pushing it into a parched and barren land;
its eastern ranks will drown in the Dead Sea
and its western ranks in the Mediterranean Sea.
And its stench will go up;
its smell will rise."
Surely he has done great things!
21 Do not be afraid, land of Judah;
be glad and rejoice.
Surely the Lord has done great things!
22 Do not be afraid, you wild animals,
for the pastures in the wilderness are becoming green.
The trees are bearing their fruit;
the fig tree and the vine yield their riches.
23 Be glad, people of Zion,
rejoice in the Lord your God,
for he has given you the autumn rains
because he is faithful.
He sends you abundant showers,
both autumn and spring rains, as before.
24 The threshing floors will be filled with grain;
the vats will overflow with new wine and oil.
25 "I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten—
the great locust and the young locust,
the other locusts and the locust swarm—
my great army that I sent among you.
26 You will have plenty to eat, until you are full,
and you will praise the name of the Lord your God,
who has worked wonders for you;
never again will my people be shamed.
27 Then you will know that I am in Israel,
that I am the Lord your God,
and that there is no other;
never again will my people be shamed.
28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.
--Joel 2
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. --Mat 24
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2012, 07:51:00 PM
Here you go. Merry Christmas! [Alright, it's not one of the feasts, but I won't be bullied out of loving Christmas] :declare:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7baFMmSv4k
Quote from: jabcat on December 05, 2012, 08:38:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2012, 07:51:00 PM
Here you go. Merry Christmas! [Alright, it's not one of the feasts, but I won't be bullied out of loving Christmas] :declare:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7baFMmSv4k
Thank you. :HeartThrob:
yw :)
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2012, 08:30:38 PM
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. --Mat 24
I Thes. 4:15 For this we are saying to you+ by the authority of the Master's Word,
that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence,
shall by no means surpass those who have
fallen asleep. 16 For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a
shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing
of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed
One will first rise up. 17 Then after that, we who are alive and surviving,
will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air
among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together
with the Master. 18 Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one
another with these words!
Quote from: jabcat on December 06, 2012, 03:14:38 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2012, 08:30:38 PM
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. --Mat 24
I Thes. 4:15 For this we are saying to you+ by the authority of the Master's Word,
that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence,
shall by no means surpass those who have
fallen asleep. 16 For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a
shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing
of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed
One will first rise up. 17 Then after that, we who are alive and surviving,
will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air
among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together
with the Master. 18 Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one
another with these words!
Yes. "Seized away" = Latin "rapturo"='the rapture.' Looks like it doesn't happen until the end of the 3.5 years of the great tribulation, so the church will be here during the great tribulation, not raptured away. Don't you think?
At the end of Joel 2 we see the set up for it being described.
A gathering together of those left in Israel
Blow the trumpet in Zion,
declare a holy fast,
call a sacred assembly.
16 Gather the people,
consecrate the assembly;
bring together the elders,
gather the children,
those nursing at the breast.
--Joel 2
The bride [church] and the groom are preparing for the wedding ['rapture"]
Let the bridegroom leave his room
and the bride her chamber.
--Joel 2
The holy people in Israel who have been broken in their own power are begging Christ to return
17 Let the priests, who minister before the Lord,
weep between the portico and the altar.
Let them say, "Spare your people, Lord.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
'Where is their God?'"
--Joel 2
And, then he returns to fight against the enemies of Israel
20 "I will drive the northern horde far from you,
pushing it into a parched and barren land;
its eastern ranks will drown in the Dead Sea
and its western ranks in the Mediterranean Sea.
--Joel 2
My view of the catching away or seizing away is more like that view, yes, rather than the "Left Behind" scenario. It appears that's what that scripture is describing, a quick catching away after/including the resurrection. There may be an immediate return, I'm not sure - just a catching away to meet him, be transformed into immortality, then "back to work" :).
I also believe prior to that, during the tribulation He will "hide and protect" the elect (though it seems some will be martyred, perhaps the group of special ministers eaglesway was talking about earlier?). Do you believe most of the tribulation will be centered in and around Israel (though it must surely affect the rest of the world to varying degrees)l?
I had a dream a long time ago..about ascending up into the air in a white tornado. I was unharmed
in the calm midst of it. rising.while I was encircled by it. winds north south east west until sealed
I didn't even know about Elijah being taken up at that time..was just 17 and didn't know much
of what was written in the scriptures.
I had a strange spiritual expierence about a year ago..and had been praying for why I was shown
and expierenced what I did. just this week..
My childhood sweetheart[first love] was sick..and I had heard he wasn't doing well. I wanted to offer my
condolances but didn't want to intrude[being an ex sweetheart] but I prayed for him and his family..
and fretted over his suffering
In the middle of the night I heard 'it's so-and-so" He's here! and immediately I was coming into the
Holy city above..and across from the other side was entering many and tables were all set up
. I understood it was his spirit and that he had passed. We inquired about the well being of each other
and though I could tell he had suffered he was ok now..
the dream vision I was given about the white tornado and ascending when I was 17 had him ascending
with me in the white tornado. the difference was I ascened alive and he with me ascended at death.
returning to our 'first love' and the 'wife of our youth' is the spiritual dwellingplace in Jerusalem above.
the banquet hall i was shown was set up..and prepaired like a reception.
because of your post Molly..I know this vision[I thought it was real] goes here.
at his leaving his body I rose simultaneously.
p.s. when I came into the banquet hall..they were coming in the opposite gate..and hadn't even been seated
yet. almost instantaneously we arrived there.
p.s. i found out two months later that he had passed when I had the dream/vision.two months previously.
I was reading about the tribulation. There were a couple of interesting comments, including some guy pointing out the following which had never fully registered with me before..what to make of this?
Rev. 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos...
Elijah will return to prepare the way for Jesus. He will return at the beginning of the 3.5 years. This will be his message:
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
--Mal 4
"Remember the law of Moses my servant." Remember the Torah. That will be Elijah's message to God's people.
Elijah will come to restore all things in preparation for the return of the Lord.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
--Mat 17
Restoring something is bringing it back to what it was originally.
21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.
--Isa 42
We are a destroyed people. Elijah will preach on this for 3.5 years.
12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
--Isa 58
The repairer of the breach between man and God. The restorer of paths to dwell in.
We are to learn to walk in the path of the Torah, restored in preparation for the return of the Lord.
23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: --Prov 6
Elijah will preach for 3.5 years to restore the remnant and repair the breach.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
--Psa 119
Quote from: jabcat on December 06, 2012, 07:31:51 AM
I was reading about the tribulation. There were a couple of interesting comments, including some guy pointing out the following which had never fully registered with me before..what to make of this?
Rev. 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos...
I think-- it is like Paul saying I am your father. I think--that these great saints could see the future and labored greatly to give birth to our generation and to labor with us in the birth pains for the next.
I think--that they are with us now, cheering us on.
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.
We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.
--Heb 12:1, 2
Abbas 'Victory Speech': Jerusalem 'Eternal Capital of Palestine'
PA Chairman promises that someday the PA flag will fly over "Jerusalem, eternal capital of the state of Palestine."
First Publish: 12/2/2012, 2:58 PM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162753
Daniel 11:39: Thus shall he [Antichrist] do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Revelation 11:1,2
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. [3.5 years]
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
--Eze 38
Zechariah 14:1-3
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Interesting thing about these folks that declare Jerusalem their eternal capital. How much can they care for the city when they just did their best to decimate it with rockets?
They are like the mother who wanted to cut the baby in half instead of giving up her claim to a child that was not hers.
Quote from: Molly on December 06, 2012, 03:26:15 PM
Abbas 'Victory Speech': Jerusalem 'Eternal Capital of Palestine'
PA Chairman promises that someday the PA flag will fly over "Jerusalem, eternal capital of the state of Palestine."
First Publish: 12/2/2012, 2:58 PM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162753
Daniel 11:39: Thus shall he [Antichrist] do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Revelation 11:1,2
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. [3.5 years]
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
--Eze 38
Zechariah 14:1-3
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Thanks for the current events update: I'm very interested in all the current events, especially those involving Israel. Also thanks for the Scriptures especially Rev 11:1,2, ... I was just looking at some Scriptures that mention Gentiles...
Quote from: jabcat on December 06, 2012, 03:14:38 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2012, 08:30:38 PM
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. --Mat 24
I Thes. 4:15 For this we are saying to you+ by the authority of the Master's Word,
that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence,
shall by no means surpass those who have
fallen asleep. 16 For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a
shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing
of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed
One will first rise up. 17 Then after that, we who are alive and surviving,
will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air
among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together
with the Master. 18 Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one
another with these words!
Are you trying to equate the above two posts as being
similar or
dis-similar with regards to an event of Christ's coming to Earth?
The greatest dis-similarity is Matt 24 nowhere alludes to a resurrection, whereas 1Thess 4: 16-17 clearly does. In order to "rise up" to meet him "into the air" requires we also be changed in accordance with Apostle Paul's description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15: 51-54.
Quote from: Paul L on December 06, 2012, 04:51:53 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 06, 2012, 03:14:38 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2012, 08:30:38 PM
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. --Mat 24
I Thes. 4:15 For this we are saying to you+ by the authority of the Master's Word,
that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence,
shall by no means surpass those who have
fallen asleep. 16 For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a
shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing
of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed
One will first rise up. 17 Then after that, we who are alive and surviving,
will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air
among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together
with the Master. 18 Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one
another with these words!
Are you trying to equate the above two posts as being similar or dis-similar with regards to an event of Christ's coming to Earth?
The greatest dis-similarity is Matt 24 nowhere alludes to a resurrection, whereas 1Thess 4: 16-17 clearly does. In order to "rise up" to meet him "into the air" requires we also be changed in accordance with Apostle Paul's description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15: 51-54.
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.--Mat 24
So when all these things begin to happen, stand and look up, for your salvation is near!" --Lk 21:28
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.--1 Cor 15
7 But in the days of the voice of
the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
--Rev 10
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."--Rev 11:15
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so
them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and
with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
--1 Thess 4
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see
the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with
a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Mat 24
24 But in those days,
after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see
the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall
gather together his elect from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.--Mark 13
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.--Heb 9:28
All the same event.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYTQ6gpcuYA
Quote from: Molly on December 06, 2012, 03:37:14 PM
Interesting thing about these folks that declare Jerusalem their eternal capital. How much can they care for the city when they just did their best to decimate it with rockets?
They are like the mother who wanted to cut the baby in half instead of giving up her claim to a child that was not hers.
Molly who is the true Mother willing to give Jerusalem away.
Daj..I think Jerusalem Above......the children of Isreal were sent away to Babylon for discipline..Isreal
and Babylon were both behaving as harlots at that time. Natural children were given over to the harlot..
so that theeternal spiritual child's life could be saved/repentance/grace/restoration Spare the rod
spoil the child. Proverbs has a lot to say about the rod of discipline.
JUDGEMENT THEN RESTORATION
Ezekiel 20;37 As I judged your fathers in the desert in the land of Egypt,so I will judge you,declares
the Sovereign Lord. I WILL TAKE NOTE OF YOU AS YOU PASS UNDER MY ROD,AND I WILL BRING YOU
INTO THE BOND OF THE COVENANT. I WILL PURGE YOU OF THOSE WHO REBEL AND REVOLT AGAINST
ME[SATAN AND DEMONS]EVIL SPIRIT CONTRAST..
ALTHOUGH I WILL BRING THEM OUT OF THE LAND THEY ARE LIVING IN[RESURRECTION OF THE
WICKED/SERPENT PLAGUE IN THE DESERT]
YET THEY WILL NOT ENTER THE LAND OF ISREAL THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD.
........I WILL ACCEPT YOU AS FRAGRANT INCENSE WHEN I BRING YOU OUT FROM THE NATIONS AND GATHER
YOU FROM THE COUNTRIES WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN SCATTERED..............
........YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD WHEN I DEAL WITH YOU FOR MY NAME'S SAKE AND NOT
ACCORDING TO YOUR EVIL WAYS AND YOUR CORRUPT PRACTICES[BRAZEN SERPENT ON A POLE]
SEEMS FATHER GIVES OVER TO ANOTHER TO SAVE SONS FROM ETERNAL DESTRUCTION ALSO
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg145892#msg145892 date=1354807810]
Quote from: Paul L on December 06, 2012, 04:51:53 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 06, 2012, 03:14:38 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2012, 08:30:38 PM
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. --Mat 24
I Thes. 4:15 For this we are saying to you+ by the authority of the Master's Word,
that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence,
shall by no means surpass those who have
fallen asleep. 16 For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a
shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing
of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed
One will first rise up. 17 Then after that, we who are alive and surviving,
will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air
among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together
with the Master. 18 Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one
another with these words!
Are you trying to equate the above two posts as being similar or dis-similar with regards to an event of Christ's coming to Earth?
The greatest dis-similarity is Matt 24 nowhere alludes to a resurrection, whereas 1Thess 4: 16-17 clearly does. In order to "rise up" to meet him "into the air" requires we also be changed in accordance with Apostle Paul's description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15: 51-54.
Quote31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.--Mat 24
So, Christ himself will not be doing the
gathering, Christ sends the angels to do that job. Do you know why? Follow next paragraph.........
In 1 Thess 4:16-17, the contrasting description of Christ snatching away the Body of Christ is: "for the Lord himself will descend....."......"and the dead in Christ shall rise first....". There are no angels on the job here & do you know why? Because only Christ can raise the dead, angels are not given that power, they are only gathering flesh & blood remnants of the tribulation which is the reason why there is no resurrection spoken of or even alluded to in all of Matt 24.
Quote52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.--1 Cor 15
Lots of trumpets up there in heaven I'm quite sure, with many having been blown at numerous different points in time, past & future. The sounding of a trumpet in one passage of Holy Writ does not need to conform to some humanly devised criteria that it must be the same as all the other references to the sounding of a trumpet mentioned elsewhere in the pages of Holy Writ, not all trumpet sounds are the same, some are silver others are rams horn. God can sound any & all trumpets in his possession at any point in time he chooses. God knows better how to pick & choose his fanfare of music.
QuoteThe seventh angel sounded his trumpet,[/b] and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."[/i]--Rev 11:15
Again, not all trumpets need to be the same trumpet call, God has sole discretion when he chooses for a trumpet to be blown.
Complete absence of any reference to a resurrection here. Did you think this is somehow connected to 1Thess 4 or Cor 15? If so, where is there mention of a resurrection in Rev 11:15? None.
Quote16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
And the reason Christ himself must descend, as opposed to sending angels to
"gather" only, is because only Christ has the power to raise the dead, angels do not, therefore they are not charged with the job, and not all trumpets need to be the same trumpet call for a single event.
Quote31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.--Mat 24
......and notice, no resurrection. Again why? Because
angels are charged with the
gathering of the elect remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation. Christ himself is not in the picture because there is no resurrection of "elect" at this moment in time. Instead Christ "shall send his angels" to "gather" only, no resurrection in the context or otherwise alluded to.
Quote24 But in those days, after that tribulation,
Quote27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.--Mark 13
.......Christ sending out more
angel gatherings, but no mention of a resurrection, because angels are impotent at raising the dead.
The Body of Christ doesn't have an angel gathering as spoken of by the Apostle Paul, because only Christ himslf can make the dead "rise".
I have been unable to locate a single passage where "gather" and "rise"/ "resurrect" are used interchangeably or where "gather" appears with either "rise" or "resurrect".
Different descriptions, therefore different events.
The trump of God IS Christ's voice.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,"
--Rev 1
But the dead in Christ are with him when he returns. They are the clouds [of witnesses] he arrives with. He is just raising their bodies.
so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.--1Thess 4
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.--Mark 13
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him
---Jude 1
It's all the same event: the second coming of Christ.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
--Rev 19
Jesus is the LORD of Hosts. He is Almighty God, also known as El Shaddai in the Old Testament.
Jesus is not El Shaddai..the many breasted one.. As the High Preist Jesus is entitled to the breast as His
portion. He is girded about the paps with a golden girlde..this girdle is 'a mere woman shall encompass
a man." wisdoms army[the women declaring the Good news are a mighty army]. they are daughters of God
and Jerusalem above....the rib portion crowns the heart[think crown rib roast] and thus a capable
wife is a crown unto her husband. [He is her head/heart..she does His will] all glorious is the princess
within her chamber[ribs/crown encircled Jesus heart] her gown is interwoven with gold. The Royal
bride is at His right hand in gold of Ophir[Mother Jerusalem Above].
El-Shaddai is Jerusalem above and Christ's bride is her only daughter/New Jerusalem. Sexual roles
are fixed eternally. There are sons and daughters of God. So Jesus Christ is not the many breasted one
but is girded about the paps/breasts of heaven with a golden girdle. As kinsman redeemer of Adam's
offspring..God gave Him them as the breast portion to nurture/teach the little children. they are the 'help-meet
they are ONE with Him...so technically you can say they are Christ,and that He is the many breasted one
Psalms 45 the wedding song.'Gird your sword upon your side,O Mighty One,clothe yourself with splendor
and majesty. In your majesty ride forth victoriously,in behalf of truth humility and righteousness.Let your
right hand display awesome deeds[royal bride at right hand]. Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts
of the Kings enemies,let the nations fall beneath your feet..
the Shulamite rejoices in her maturity because her breasts are towers[God is in her citadels,He has
shown Himself to be her fortress}.When the kings joined forces,when they advanced togather...
they saw her and were astounded...they fled in terror.....as we have heard..so we have seen...
in the city of the Lord Almighty,in the city of our God;GOD MAKES HER SECURE FOREVER.
Rev 14...144,000..standing on Mt Zion...these are chief commanders in Wisdom's[from above] Army
they teach men and women on earth/gotta love that bosom position]
there are 12 pairs of ribs[12x12=144] Twelve foundations in Holy city..the little one shall become 1000
these are the cheif commanders only...they have many many in-numerable that serve under their command
...Heavenly Host's...Holy ghosts are God's hosts
However you want to process it:
Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
"Almighty"
H7706
שׁדּי
shadday
shad-dah'ee
From H7703; the Almighty: - Almighty.
"God"
H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."
(1 Peter 5:10) "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."
El Shaddai [God Almighty] is the name by which the fathers knew the God of the Old Testament, YHWH.
YHWH tells Moses this.
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty [El Shaddai], but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.
--Ex 6:3
(Deuteronomy 32:1-4) "Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. 2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: 3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he."
and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that traveled with them, and that rock was Christ.
--1 Cor 10:14
(Jude 1:24-25) "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuXB1a3NBCw
Quote from: dajomaco on December 06, 2012, 08:44:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 06, 2012, 03:37:14 PM
Interesting thing about these folks that declare Jerusalem their eternal capital. How much can they care for the city when they just did their best to decimate it with rockets?
They are like the mother who wanted to cut the baby in half instead of giving up her claim to a child that was not hers.
Molly who is the true Mother willing to give Jerusalem away.
I would be willing to give Jerusalem away .
If these folks were my children.
Although we could have been a burden as Christ's apostles,
instead we were gentle among you,
as a nursing mother nurtures her own children.
So--Although I would like to see a pre-tribulation rapture, I just can't find it in the scriptures.
If anyone can, please make your case.
:Luke 21--and Mat 24--no pretrib rapture.
Jesus returns after the tribulation.
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (Luke 21:20-24).
"And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near" (Luke 21:25-28).
Mark 13 Agrees. Lots of tribulation and no Jesus appearing for rapture. Instead, false christs and false prophets.
For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand (Mark 13:3-23).
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in heaven will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven (Mark 13:24-27).
And, Jesus makes it clear that there will be no secret rapture. Everyone will see him when he returns.
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be...Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matt 24:26-27,30).
Also, the only church that is guaranteed protection from the tribulation seems to be the church of Philadephia:
"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
--Rev 3
Only one out of 7 church types is protected. That means the rest of the church is in apostasy and will be tried. But, to those who love him and follow his commandments, he says
"Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." (Isaiah 26:20-21).
I did a little looking. One fellow made some (what I considered) rather silly arguments for pre-trib, but did come up with the following that could use some critiquing;
from raptureready - "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).
Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming." - end quote
Jab, Revelation 3:10 is his message to the church of Philadelphia, which I mentioned in my post above as the one church that he would protect through the tribulation [but not rapture out of it]. He seems to find fault which each of the other churches, although he gives them direction how they could repent.
What do you mean a known and an unknown date?
Those are all his words... I'll go back in and make that more clear.
I think he's saying since the return of Christ can be "exactly counted down and known", then that lends credence to his view of a pre-trib rapture, since "no man knows the day/hour". So he's contending there must be 2 separate events.
I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.
Doesn't he tell us that everyone will be asleep in that day but we will be awake because we are children of the light? Then BE children of the light, because if you walk in the light, you can see where you're going, and you won't stumble and fall.
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
--1 Thess 5
But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.-- (Mark 13)
Quoteauthor=ded2daworld link=topic=10395.msg145947#msg145947 date=1354970681]
QuoteI've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true?
True.....But what initiated this sudden change in thinking? Up until about 175 years ago, only the Latin Vulgate & King James versions were available for public reading. Then as the Revisers went about translating newly discovered Greek codices in the middle of the 19th century, they discovered numerous inconsistencies with the non-Greek based versions of the Latin Vulgate & King James. This lead to compilations of concordances providing Greek definitions of words that often have very different definitions in English, the end result of which we have Strong's Concordance today.
These issues sparked further investigations into other matters that had in the past been considered
settled dogma. Once settled dogma (namely that of Preterism) was now coming under intense scrutiny as the western world's populations were on the precipice of becoming substantially literate cultures no longer held hostage to the whimsical fantasies of a small group of "church fathers".
With this increase in literacy, more people were discovering that many things they were told about the Bible were in fact obvious discrepancies absent from the text. The pre-trib & post-trib descriptions of the coming(s) of Christ became one of the many discrepancies that could no longer be hidden. These of course had implications for the timeline(s) of resurrections present in some scriptures but absent in others, while supposedly referring to the same event; as by example previously posted by me just above.
Most of the post-trib groups are considered holdover Replacement Theology dogmatists, or those whose eschatological aspirations are more such than they care to openly admit. These are people who see the Christian Church anywhere the word "saint" or "elect" appear in the Bible.
Quote.......are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.
What then was the purpose of the Ark? That didn't accomplish about the same thing? Being lifted high above the heads of the people who were becoming immersed in the waters below them.
A prophecy against Damascus:
"See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
and left to flocks, which will lie down,
with no one to make them afraid.
3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, <----northern Israel
and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the Israelites,"
declares the Lord Almighty.
4 "In that day the glory of Jacob will fade;
the fat of his body will waste away.
5 It will be as when reapers harvest the standing grain,
gathering the grain in their arms—
as when someone gleans heads of grain
in the Valley of Rephaim.
6 Yet some gleanings will remain,
as when an olive tree is beaten,
leaving two or three olives on the topmost branches,
four or five on the fruitful boughs,"
declares the Lord, the God of Israel.
7 In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.
8 They will not look to the altars,
the work of their hands,
and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles[a]
and the incense altars their fingers have made.
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.
10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.
12 Woe to the many nations that rage—
they rage like the raging sea!
Woe to the peoples who roar—
they roar like the roaring of great waters!
13 Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters,
when he rebukes them they flee far away,
driven before the wind like chaff on the hills,
like tumbleweed before a gale.
14 In the evening, sudden terror! <----Nuclear?
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us.
--Isa 17
A prophecy against Egypt:
See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud <---The Rider on the Clouds
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.
2 "I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian— <----Civil War
brother will fight against brother,
neighbor against neighbor,
city against city,
kingdom against kingdom.
3 The Egyptians will lose heart,
and I will bring their plans to nothing;
they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead,
the mediums and the spiritists.
4 I will hand the Egyptians over
to the power of a cruel master,
and a fierce king will rule over them,"
declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.
5 The waters of the river will dry up, <----Drought from the Two Witnesses?
and the riverbed will be parched and dry.
6 The canals will stink;
the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up.
The reeds and rushes will wither, <----Famine
7 also the plants along the Nile,
at the mouth of the river.
Every sown field along the Nile
will become parched, will blow away and be no more.
8 The fishermen will groan and lament,
all who cast hooks into the Nile;
those who throw nets on the water
will pine away.
9 Those who work with combed flax will despair, <---Economic Collapse
the weavers of fine linen will lose hope.
10 The workers in cloth will be dejected,
and all the wage earners will be sick at heart.
11 The officials of Zoan are nothing but fools;
the wise counselors of Pharaoh give senseless advice.
How can you say to Pharaoh,
"I am one of the wise men,
a disciple of the ancient kings"?
12 Where are your wise men now?
Let them show you and make known
what the Lord Almighty
has planned against Egypt.
13 The officials of Zoan have become fools,
the leaders of Memphis are deceived;
the cornerstones of her peoples
have led Egypt astray.
14 The Lord has poured into them
a spirit of dizziness;
they make Egypt stagger in all that she does,
as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit.
15 There is nothing Egypt can do—
head or tail, palm branch or reed.
16 In that day the Egyptians will become weaklings. They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the Lord Almighty raises against them. 17 And the land of Judah will bring terror to the Egyptians; everyone to whom Judah is mentioned will be terrified, because of what the Lord Almighty is planning against them.
18 In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the Lord Almighty. One of them will be called the City of the Sun.
19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the Lord and keep them. 22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.
23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. 25 The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance."
--Isa 19
Immanuel: God With Us
Dec.24, 2011 byMichael Horton inGeneral, whitehorseinn.org
Christmas is a time for celebration, but it's also a time for sentimentality. It's a time for returning to the greatest story ever told, yet precisely because of its magnitude in our history, tall tales attach themselves to the divine drama like sea mussels to the hull of a ship. In this situation, "God With Us" can easily become little more than a salute from afar, the way we send loved ones off on a trip with, "God be with you!"
God's Tabernacle
We don't really understand the significance of "Immanuel: God With Us" unless we crawl inside the story of Israel. From the very beginning, God created the world for the purpose of dwelling in the midst of it, particularly in the midst of the people he created in his own image for covenantal fellowship. The Creator had completed his work and entered his everlasting rest of royal conquest, and now his image-bearer was to follow this pattern. The earthly temple-garden of Eden was but a copy of the heavenly sanctuary, yet no less than the holy place where God promised to meet his viceroy in blessing. After completing the mission for he was anointed as prophet, priest, and king, Adam would be given the right to eat from the sacramental Tree of Life—not only for himself and for Eve, but for his posterity. Leading the whole creation in his train, Adam would enter the heavenly sanctuary, participating in God's own everlasting Sabbath conquest, confirmed in everlasting righteousness and glory.
Of course, we know how it turned out. Instead of leading the parade to the finish line, Adam led a detour. Instead of listening to every word that comes from the mouth of God and embracing everlasting life by feeding on the sacramental Tree of Life, Adam demanded the food he craved. He sought an inner word that he could ratify by his own inner experience. Evicted from the temple, Adam and Eve were nevertheless given the surprising and wonderful announcement that Christmas was coming. With this gospel promise, a fissure was opened up in history for the progress of God's redemptive work leading to Christ. The story behind the story, from Genesis to Revelation, would be the war between the serpent and the seed of the woman.
The fall did not change the determination of the Triune God to dwell in the midst of his people. However, it did mean that as long as the people were guilty as covenant-breakers, God's dwelling in their midst could only be the most terrifying prospect. The mere advent of the Holy God in the midst of a sinful people would incinerate the camp. There's no going back to Eden, especially to the Tree of Life. In fact, the cherubim were posted there to bar re-entry; for if Adam and Eve had returned and eaten from that Tree, they (and their posterity) would have been confirmed in God's everlasting immortality, to be sure, but in a state of condemnation rather than righteousness.
So, understandably, when God calls his people to himself, the question arises, "Where can he be found in safety and peace rather than in danger and destruction?" This question doesn't automatically come to 3 out of 4 Americans. God's kind of like Santa. "He knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake," but the worst that can happen is that he passes you by on Christmas Eve. It's not, of course.
So Jews had a good reason to be a little concerned about God just showing up all unannounced. On one hand, they knew that they were nothing without God's presence—that was the whole point of the covenant. On the other hand, they knew that God's presence was not benign; it meant either unspeakable blessing or unimaginable destruction. So Moses took the risk, pleading with God to accompany his people on their journey from Sinai to Canaan after the golden calf episode; otherwise, how will the nations know that God had chosen, redeemed, and called them rather than liberating them from Egypt only to let them die in the desert as no-people? God acceded to Moses' intercession. However, knowing the sinful inclination of his people, God mercifully added that he would only pitch his tent outside the camp, with the priest entering the tabernacle on their behalf.
It's the delicate tension between this ultimate blessedness and ultimate danger of God dwelling in our midst that we observe throughout the biblical drama. The early Reformed theologian Wolfgang Musculus put a fine point on it: "So here we are, faced by terror of divine Majesty on one side and the need of our salvation on the other." Only in this context are we ready to understand the significance of the Temple.
With the Tabernacle, God condescends to maintain his presence on the edges of the camp. It's too dangerous to have God living in the neighborhood of sinners. But then there is also priestly mediation through the sacrificial system: the sacrifice's blood dripping from the horns of the ark of the covenant that housed the broken law. After Israel thoroughly violated the covenant, no longer serving as a beacon to the nations pointing them to the coming Messiah, the Spirit of Glory evacuated his sanctuary and the holy place became as common as a baseball park. Without God's presence, Israel was no longer a holy nation and the people were sent into exile by the covenant Lord himself. Once more, the cherabim sealed the gate to the sacramental Tree of Life.
Yet even in exile, God sent word through his prophets that he would keep history moving toward his Messiah in spite of his people's treason.
God With Us: A Blessing or a Curse?
In his remarkable book, Sinai and Zion, Jewish scholar Jon Levenson points out that Sinai—standing for the covenant that Israel swore under Moses as mediator—represents everything temporal and insecure, dependent on the people's obedience. However, "Zion represents the possibility of meaning above history, out of history, through an opening into the realm of the ideal." It is not outside of history; this heavenly, inviolable, and gracious covenant enters history. Nevertheless, it is not dependent on what people do and how history evolves under its own steam. Zion represents the promise that God will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.
The Temple was the focal point of biblical faith. It was both Law and Gospel. As God's holy residence, it was a constant reminder of Israel's sinfulness, but it also provided the way of salvation through cleansing and forgiveness. As God had made perfectly clear to Moses, God's presence among his people was a dangerous thing, given who they were and who he is. But if the people, regardless of their sins, came by way of the washing and atonement he had provided on his holy hill, they could experience God's presence as good news rather than disaster: "God With Us" would be a blessing and not a curse. Levenson explains, "Jerusalem and, as we shall see, especially Mount Zion, are a sign that beneath and beyond the pain and chaos of the realm we call history, there is another realm, upheld by the indefectible promise of God. Dynasty and Temple, the house of David and house of God, function within the order of history, but are rooted in that other order of things." It's a zone protected from the ravages of "profane time."
Eden and "God's holy mountain" are correlated in Ezekiel 28:13-14. The connection to Eden in that passage drives home also the allusion to Adam in the mysterious fall of the king of Tyre. "The equation of Temple mount and paradise, then, did not begin with Ezekiel," says Levenson. For instance, it can be found in Psalm 36:8-10. "In short, the Temple is intimately associated with creation. It is, in a sense, the gateway to life as it was meant to be, unlimited by death, eternal life,...sacred time, always new, always just created." Levenson quotes the sages: "Both [heaven and earth] were created from Zion." So Zion takes on a cosmic, universal role that Sinai never did. Sinai represents a limited, provisional, national, and utterly conditional covenant that points to the everlasting promise but has no power to bring it about within history. The lampstand represents a cosmic tree atop a cosmic mountain, with branches reaches down, throughout the world, into the heavens above. "This tree was the central life-giving force for the entire creation (there is portrayal of such trees in Dan. 4; Ezek. 17; 19; 31)."
Yet here once again the deceiver lay in waiting, seducing the Israelites away from their God through the idolatry of their neighbors. "Like Adam, they broke the covenant" (Hos 6:7). "High places"—shrines established by religious whim to worship other gods—proliferated, including the sacrifices of firstborn children to Molech. Instead of being stairways to heaven, as many of their inscriptions advertised, they were actually gates to a hellish abyss. Like the avenging angel in the Passover, only this time striking the Israelites themselves, judgment moved steadily from Shiloh until it reached the Jerusalem Temple itself (Jer 7:11-12).
Israel and Judah were finally sent into exile, evicted like Adam and Eve, from the holy place of communion with God that they had corrupted. Evacuating the temple, the Glory-Spirit returned to the heavenly sanctuary, although he continued to keep the hope of the promise alive in the hearts of the captives in Babylon. In exile, God says, "yet I was a sanctuary for them a little while" (Ezek 11:16). In the end-time sanctuary, the Spirit will be present again: Hag 2:5; Zech 4:6-9—the latter an allusion to Ex 33:14-17, the Presence that goes with Israel. God promises "to make 'the latter glory of this house...greater than the former' (Hag 2:3-9)." In fact, Isaiah prophesies of the new temple, it will be beautiful (Is 60:1-20).
Although a remnant did eventually return to Jerusalem to rebuild its ruins, the people never experienced a sustained era of independence from foreign rule. Under Roman occupation, something occurred that was greater than the return of the Shekinah-Glory to the new temple under construction. "The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (Jn 1:14).
The prophets had already been given a glimpse of this new world-wide temple "made without hands," especially in Ezekiel's vision (Ezek 43-46). Here, once and for all, forgiveness of sins would come to God's people "in one day" and the Spirit would fill all of them, making them witnesses to the ends of the earth. The typological sacrifices, rituals, and ceremonies of the temple would be fulfilled in the person and work of the messianic Son of David, who would unite in his person the offices of prophet, priest, and king.
So how can we climb Mount Zion? That becomes the key question of rabbinical theology after the remnant returned from exile, according to Levenson. Indeed, he adds, "For Jews, there is no greater voice than that of Sinai." Even after so clearly pointing out the sharp contrast between the unilateral promise of grace in the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants over against the conditional covenant of Sinai, Levenson maintains that that the messiah will come with "Israel's observance of the stipulations of Sinai...." The Sinai legacy, according to Levenson, rather than being the "schoolmaster" to lead us to Christ, is to be perpetually renewed by each generation. When the remnant returned from Babylon to rebuild Jerusalem, they saw themselves in exactly the same situation as their fathers at Mount Sinai, swearing the oath, "All this we will do." Levenson even notes that this is precisely where Judaism and the New Testament part ways: The former sees perpetual rededication to Sinai as the way to the resurrection of the righteous, while the latter sees the new covenant in Christ as rendering Sinai obsolete. "In fact, the Davidic theology is the origin of Jewish messianism and the christology of the church."
The Temple Made Flesh
John's Gospel begins with the eternal Word as God made flesh, pitching his tabernacle no longer outside the camp but in our midst. God would be with us, not only on the edges of the camp to avoid destroying his people in wrath, but "in our midst." God came to our neighborhood. He became one of us, in fact. The most amazing thing about the first Christmas is that nobody died. Sinners gathered to behold the glory of the Creator of heaven and earth and lived to tell about it.
Jesus identifies himself explicitly as the Temple (Mt 12:6, 39-42) and the Sabbath rest (Mt 11:28-30), dispensing forgiveness directly without the mediation of the temple system. In fact, such actions arouse the greatest ire of the religious leaders, both because he is draining the temple of its significance and, by replacing it, is making himself equal with God: "For who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mk 2:1-12; Lk 5:18-26). Jesus takes the old sanctuary with him into the grave and on the third day exits the greater exile in a greater exodus once and for all.
In Galatians 4, Paul refers to two mountains that are definitive in redemptive history, especially in the Psalter and the prophets: Mount Sinai and Mount Zion. This side of Christ's advent, however, these stand for the earthly Jerusalem in bondage as children of Hagar and the heavenly Jerusalem made up of the free children of Sarah. These represent "two covenants," says Paul, a covenant of law (Moses) and a covenant of promise (Abraham). With Israel's exile to Babylon as the curse for breaking the Mosaic covenant, the only hope for the future is the new covenant as the realization of the unilateral divine promise made to Abraham and David. This new covenant, says Jeremiah, will not be like the Mosaic covenant (Jer 31).
Levenson is right: Both Judaism and Christianity depart from the expectation of a future restoration of the temple and its worship as a necessary prerequisite for its identity. Yet the difference is crucial: Judaism teaches that circumcision and personal dedication to Torah now replaces the Temple and its sacrificial system, while Christians believe that Christ is the fulfillment of the types and shadows of the law. Where Judaism has spiritualized and moralized the prophetic anticipation of a future Temple "made without hands," the gospel announces a materialization of that prophetic anticipation in the person and work of Jesus Christ. God is now truly "haveable." His presence is no longer a threat for all who dwell in the sacred precincts of the Holy of Holies, where Christ has entered with his own blood.
There is no going back to the shadows once the reality has appeared in the flesh. And that is good news for Jews as well as for the nations who stream into the Light that radiates from the Lamb. This means that there is not now and never will be any temple of God other than Christ and no holy land other than that which is within the sacred precincts of his body. In Christ, we are the people whom God has made a place—his place—forever. "The Word became flesh and pitched his tabernacle among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (Jn 1:14).
Nor is there any going back to pagan Gentile philosophy, with its ethical or mystical ascent. And that is also good news, because, "There is no health in us." While we were trying to rise from our flesh to the realm of spirit, "the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us."Only the God of majestic holiness and wrath can be found when we look within ourselves. Jesus is not "God Within Us," but "God With Us." And this too is good news, because we need a safe meeting place, an Axis Mundi where we are assured of meeting God in peace and blessing rather than in judgment and disaster.
For you have not come to a mountain that may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the command that was given, 'If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.' Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, 'I tremble with fear.' But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel...Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:18-24, 28-29).
Christ by highest heav'n adored
Christ the everlasting Lord!
Late in time behold Him come
Offspring of a Virgin's womb
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
Hail the incarnate Deity
Pleased as man with man to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"
Hark the Herald Angels Sing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbdvo019mgM
Quote from: jabcat on December 08, 2012, 07:08:56 AM
I did a little looking. One fellow made some (what I considered) rather silly arguments for pre-trib, but did come up with the following that could use some critiquing;
from raptureready - "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).
Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming." - end quote
Molly, I'm curious what you ended up thinking about this guy's argument. He's (rightly or wrongly) pointing out 2 separate events. I'm not sure how they fit together, or if they're different or really separate. :dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on December 09, 2012, 08:41:16 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 08, 2012, 07:08:56 AM
I did a little looking. One fellow made some (what I considered) rather silly arguments for pre-trib, but did come up with the following that could use some critiquing;
from raptureready - "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).
Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming." - end quote
Molly, I'm curious what you ended up thinking about this guy's argument. He's (rightly or wrongly) pointing out 2 separate events. I'm not sure how they fit together, or if they're different or really separate. :dontknow:
Did you give a link for me to read? I went looking and couldn't find it.
As I said above, I cannot find or justify two events, nor a secret rapture, nor a pretrib rapture. I see where he says he will protect the church of Philadelphia [brotherly love] from the tribulation, but it doesn't say he will remove them from the earth during it. And, tnat still leaves 6 other churches that are falling short in one way or another, and he doesn't say he will protect them. [I think we ought to figure out what the church of Philadelphia is doing right. :laughing7:]
So it still sounds to me that for 3.5 years the whole world will be tried [with focus on Jacob's trouble] and then Christ will return. But, for the church of Philadelphia, those not appointed to wrath,
"Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity."
(Isaiah 26:20-21).
For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. Psa 27:5
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.--Psa 91
No link, like I said, I considered most of it speculation, with little to no solid scriptural evidence presented. The main thing that caught my attention was, he's saying we're told we can't know the day nor hour [of something - catching away, or return], while on the other hand we have an "exact" time frame given (per him), the 1260 days [of something - catching away, or return]. So I see him saying how can it just be one event, if we have both "can't know the time" and "here's a specific time". So he's saying there must be a pre-trib rapture and a return. Maybe he's just doing more reaching and speculating, without really solid evidence. Like I said, it just sort of caught my attention, and I wondered about the equation he's presenting.
I hear you, and I've got some things bouncing around in my head about protection during tribulation, and how/who that might look like. Guesses and speculation on my part. lol
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
--Mat 24:35-36
Ok, regarding no man knows the day or the hour when these things will happen--
Some people argue that we are just to be blindsided by the return of Christ because of this statement. That hardly makes sense to me, given that the Bible and Jesus himself gives us so many signs to look for in such great detail.
Others argue that no man knows the day or the hour is a direct reference to Tabernacles which begins on the new moon. The priests go to the top of the Temple to watch for the appearing of the new moon over a 48 hour period to start Tabernacles. That's why Jesus says no one knows the day or the hour, just like the priest doesn't know the day or the hour for the beginning of Tabernacles because he doesn't know exactly when the crescent moon will appear.
It could also be as simple as he didn't want to say, ok ok Dec 21, 2012, and have everyone go to sleep for 2000 years. :laugh:
But, I personally think we can look for dates based on study and reasoning and if we are wrong, what have we lost? I enjoy looking forward to a date when I think the Lord is going to return and I have one in my head right now. If the date comes and goes, I'll just go back to the drawing board. He says himself that we are to be the children of the light, and if we are not watching he will come like a thief in the night. There is also the story about the foolish virgins who were not prepared for the groom's arrival.
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
--Mark 13:31
So when the apostles were with Jesus, they kept asking him, "Lord, has the time come for you to free Israel and restore our kingdom?"
He replied, "The Father alone has the authority to set those dates and times, and they are not for you to know.
--Act 1:6,8
Here's another one many use to support their belief of a pre-trib rapture;
American King James Version
Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Some commentators explain that as regarding the coming judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD;
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
To stand before the Son of man - These approaching calamities are represented as the "coming of the Son of man" to judge Jerusalem for its crimes. Its inhabitants were so wicked that they were not worthy to stand before him and would be condemned, and the city would be overthrown. To "stand before him" here denotes approbation, acquittal, favor, and is equivalent to saying that "they" would be free from these calamities, while they should come upon others. See Romans 14:4; Psalm 1:5; Psalm 130:3; Revelation 6:17. Perhaps, also, there is a reference here to the day of judgment. See the notes at Matthew 24.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
That shall come to pass - That is, the tribulations which are on their way to overwhelm and destroy the Jewish people. These are sufficiently stated in the preceding verses.
To stand before the Son of man - To be acquitted, and to be condemned, are expressed, in Romans 14:4, by standing and falling. Those who were faithful to the grace they had received were not only not destroyed in the destruction of Jerusalem, but became heralds of the grace and mercy of God to the nations. Thus they were counted worthy to stand before the Son of man - to minister salvation in his name.
well, ok, but, Jesus did not return in 70 ad and set up his kingdom with Jerusalem as the capital. [I'm being literal here]. So 70 ad is really about 'that which is becoming obsolete will fade away.' Jesus made an actual, literal prophecy about the Temple and how not one stone would be left standing on another, and I think that takes care of 70 ad.
I have all these verses which say 'after the tribulation' of those days, Jesus will return.
I'm not sure how much one can negotiate that.
Quote from: Molly on December 10, 2012, 08:22:50 AM
I have all these verses which say 'after the tribulation' of those days, Jesus will return.
That sounds pretty solid alright. I don't have those verses right now. I think I'll do a search on "after the tribulation" and look at the context(s) and see if they're all the same, or if there are any variations of context (maybe you already know). I'd guess even if some appear to be talking about 70AD, there are others that appear to be addressing the Day of the Lord.
Holy smokes. I had no idea so many Bible commentators took such a historical view. I checked out this scrip Mt. 24:29 just by picking it up in a Google search of "after the tribulation", on bible.cc -
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
American King James Version
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The word rendered "immediately" - εὐθέως eutheōs - means, properly, "straightway, immediately," Matthew 8:3; Matthew 13:5; Mark 1:31; Acts 12:10; then "shortly," 3 John 1:14. This is the meaning here. Such events would "shortly" or "soon" occur In the fulfillment of the predictions they would be "the next in order," and would occur "before long." The term here requires us to admit that, in order to the fulfillment of the prophecy, it can be shown, or it actually happened, that things "did" soon occur "after the tribulation of those days" which would be "properly represented or described" by the images which the Saviour employs. It is not necessary to show that there could not have been "a more remote" reference to events lying far in the future, in which there would be a more complete fulfillment or "filling up" of the meaning of the words (compare the notes at Matthew 1:22-23); but it is necessary that there should have been events which would be "properly expressed" by the language which the Saviour uses, or which would have been in some proper sense "fulfilled," even if there had not been reference to more remote events. It will be seen in the exposition that this was actually the case, and that therefore there was a propriety in saying that these events would occur "immediately" - that is, "soon, or the next in order." Compare the notes at Revelation 1:1.
Shall the sun be darkened ... - The images used here are not to be taken literally. They are often employed by the sacred writers to denote "any great calamities." As the darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of the stars, would be an inexpressible calamity, so any great catastrophe - any overturning of kingdoms or cities, or dethroning of kings and princes is represented by the darkening of the sun and moon, and by some terrible convulsion in the elements. Thus the destruction of Babylon is foretold in similar terms Isaiah 13:10, and of Tyre Isaiah 24:23. The slaughter in Bozrah and Idumea is predicted in the same language, Isaiah 34:4. See also Isaiah 50:3; Isaiah 60:19-20; Ezekiel 32:7; Joel 3:15. To the description in Matthew, Luke has added Luke 21:25-26, "And upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; people's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth." All these are figures of great and terrible calamities. The roaring of the waves of the sea denotes great tumult and affliction among the people. "Perplexity" means doubt, anxiety; not knowing what to do to escape. "Men's hearts should fail them for fear," or by reason of fear. Their fears would be so great as to take away their courage and strength.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Immediately after the tribulation, etc. - Commentators generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened - brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; Ezekiel 32:7, Ezekiel 32:8, etc." Lightfoot.
In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens: -
The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9, Isaiah 13:10.
The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7, Ezekiel 32:8.
The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.
And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30, Joel 2:31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth - darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.
The falling of stars, i.e. those meteors which are called falling stars by the common people, was deemed an omen of evil times. The heathens have marked this
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Immediately after the tribulation of those days,.... That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment, or what should befall the church, or world, a little before that time, or should be accomplished in the whole intermediate time, between the destruction of Jerusalem, and the last judgment: for all that is said to account for such a sense, as that it was usual with the prophets to speak of judgments afar off as near; and that the apostles often speak of the coming of Christ, the last judgment, and the end of the world, as just at hand; and that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, will not answer to the word "immediately", or show that that should be understood of two thousand years after: besides, all the following things were to be fulfilled before that present generation, in which Christ lived, passed away, Matthew 24:34 and therefore must be understood of things that should directly, and immediately take place upon, or at the destruction of the city and temple.. Shall the sun be darkened: not in a literal but in a figurative sense...
----------------------------
Will look at others. :mshock:
It's not 'immediately,' It's immediately after those days, the days he has just spend all of Mat 24 describing.
What are they saying, that Christ already returned with ten thousands of his saints in power and great glory---we just can't tell?
well, if that was it...I'm disappointed. :btantrum:
:laugh: I know what you mean.
I'm gonna have to dig into this a little more! :wacko2:
These guys say all the stones were not thrown down, so all could not have been fulfilled except Christ's return.
http://www.jesus-messiah.com/prophecy/not-one-stone.html
Quote from: jabcat on December 10, 2012, 09:40:46 AM
These guys say all the stones were not thrown down, so all could not have been fulfilled except Christ's return.
http://www.jesus-messiah.com/prophecy/not-one-stone.html
This is an interesting list. I don't agree with most of this.
What do Preterist believe? The Law did not end at Calvary but in 70AD
Salvation was a mixture of Law and Grace until 70AD
The time of the Gentiles did not begin until 70AD
We have no New Testament it was all fulfilled except Revelation chapters 20, 21, and 22, by 70AD
The Joel prophecy and Holy Ghost outpouring ended in 70AD
Acts 2:38 plan of faith and grace salvation ended in 70AD
All the epistles were for those to be raptured or resurrected in 70AD
The Gospel the Apostles and Paul preached prior to 70AD is not the plan of salvation "after" 70AD
Those before 70AD were in the Kingdom but the Kingdom ceased in 70AD
Those who were not ready in 70AD had a second chance after the secret rapture
The Gentile Church began in 70AD
The Apostles and all the early saints were raptured or resurrected in 70AD
The second coming of Jesus was spiritual and occurred in 70AD
To endure until the end in Matthew 24:13 is to endure until 70AD
The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is already past
There is no future antichrist or false prophet who certifies him
There is no mark of the beast, the mark is just the mark(s) of sin
There is no future tribulation
There are no future events in the seals, trumpets, or vials
The sun will not turn dark or the moon turn into blood
All prophecies contain "idioms" that need kabbalistic interpretation
There is no future pre, mid, pre-wrath, or post tribulation rapture.
There is no millennial. The millennial is not 1,000 actual years but is identical with the church age
All that remains is the next coming of Jesus followed by the judgment
IMO, Putting preterists in a group and then defining them as ALL believing these things doesn't do them justice just as persons, just as ET'ers put universalists in a group and say what we believe? There are several forms of preterism and some people believe some of their tenets and some believe many. Few believe ALL.
Like ET and UR and ED, verses of scripture may be used to defend all three positions. :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 10, 2012, 01:49:48 PM
IMO, Putting preterists in a group and then defining them as ALL believing these things doesn't do them justice just as persons, just as ET'ers put universalists in a group and say what we believe? There are several forms of preterism and some people believe some of their tenets and some believe many. Few believe ALL.
Like ET and UR and ED, verses of scripture may be used to defend all three positions. :Peace2:
There are "
Purist Pretrerists" & "
Partial Pretrerists". I sat with a "purist" over coffee in a local coffee shop recently, he believes we are presently living in a post millennial age, that the Millennial Reign of Christ (the Pope) began around 70 AD & ended 1000 years after that. Do the math. The 1948 founding of the state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.
The "Partial Pretrerists" are found within the ranks of those usually labeling themselves "Dispensationalists". These are those who generally give Israel it's due place in events leading up to the founding of the Jewish State in 1948.
The "Partial Preterists" could also be labeled as "Partial Dispensationalists".
The final category could be labeled "
Purist Dispensationalism". These are those who make sharp distinctions of scripture with regard to promises made only to Israel & promises that pertain only to the Body of Christ. Partial Preterists/Dispensationalists blur the sharp distinctions made by the purists of those within the ranks of dispensationalism, in other words they mix the language of promises made to
Israelite saints with promises made to
Body of Christ saints. I looked at the RaptureReady site & at Rev 3:10 & the comment the editor made, it's the "preterist" position. It's a "preterist" position because he believes the Pope's position that the "seven churches" are seven ages of the Christian Church.
Remember, I've told you all this beforehand.
Listen! I've told you this before it happens.
--Matthew 24:25
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
--Mat 24:13
Quote from: PaulThere are "Purist Pretrerists" & "Partial Pretrerists". I sat with a "purist" over coffee in a local coffee shop recently, he believes we are presently living in a post millennial age, that the Millennial Reign of Christ (the Pope) began around 70 AD & ended 1000 years after that. Do the math. The 1948 founding of the state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.
So what do they say we are in now?
Some kind of post-millenial haze?
Or maybe this is the lake of fire? :mshock:
No wonder everyone's on drugs.
It is so easy for us to label people that way we can determine.
Who they are.
We can say they are wrong.
They don't agree with me.
I don't agree with them.
I am not going to say they are wrong.
Now we are making straw men out of crack pipes
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg146048#msg146048 date=1355160010]
Quote from: PaulThere are "Purist Pretrerists" & "Partial Pretrerists". I sat with a "purist" over coffee in a local coffee shop recently, he believes we are presently living in a post millennial age, that the Millennial Reign of Christ (the Pope) began around 70 AD & ended 1000 years after that. Do the math. The 1948 founding of the state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.
QuoteSo what do they say we are in now?
......that we are in a judgement period.
QuoteSome kind of post-millenial haze?
........so it seems.
QuoteOr maybe this is the lake of fire?
........there are those who actually believe this.
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 10, 2012, 01:49:48 PM
IMO, Putting preterists in a group and then defining them as ALL believing these things doesn't do them justice just as persons, just as ET'ers put universalists in a group and say what we believe? There are several forms of preterism and some people believe some of their tenets and some believe many. Few believe ALL.
Like ET and UR and ED, verses of scripture may be used to defend all three positions. :Peace2:
Yes, but we do know that two of the three positions are wrong because they cannot include ALL the scripture within their position. UR does that and is IMO a foundation doctrine, or elementary principle of the oracles of God (Hebrews 5:11-15 & 6:1-6).
Eschatology is a little different because it deals with events in play and prophesies not yet clearly defined. The only Preterists I feel are actually heretical are those who teach there is no physical resurrection, a teaching that rejects the foundation doctrine, or elementary principle, of the resurrection of the dead as taught by the jesus and the apostles.
Of course, I am a radical that believes the whole western denominational church is heretical :o)
Quote from: Paul L on December 10, 2012, 07:44:46 PM
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg146048#msg146048 date=1355160010]
Quote from: PaulThere are "Purist Pretrerists" & "Partial Pretrerists". I sat with a "purist" over coffee in a local coffee shop recently, he believes we are presently living in a post millennial age, that the Millennial Reign of Christ (the Pope) began around 70 AD & ended 1000 years after that. Do the math. The 1948 founding of the state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.
QuoteSo what do they say we are in now?
......that we are in a judgement period.
QuoteSome kind of post-millenial haze?
........so it seems.
QuoteOr maybe this is the lake of fire?
........there are those who actually believe this.
It's good to know where people stand.
But that's just plain....spooky...
Quote from: Molly on December 10, 2012, 08:45:59 PM
Quote from: Paul L on December 10, 2012, 07:44:46 PM
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg146048#msg146048 date=1355160010]
Quote from: PaulThere are "Purist Pretrerists" & "Partial Pretrerists". I sat with a "purist" over coffee in a local coffee shop recently, he believes we are presently living in a post millennial age, that the Millennial Reign of Christ (the Pope) began around 70 AD & ended 1000 years after that. Do the math. The 1948 founding of the state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.
QuoteSo what do they say we are in now?
......that we are in a judgement period.
QuoteSome kind of post-millenial haze?
........so it seems.
QuoteOr maybe this is the lake of fire?
........there are those who actually believe this.
It's good to know where people stand.
But that's just plain....spooky...
It's just as spooky that a preacher can talk 900 followers into drinking arsenic laced kool-aid in the jungles of Guyana, and another church leader can talk heads of governments into murdering hundreds of thousands non-catholics in the middle ages, or another head of state murders 6 million Jews in the 20th century while the "church fathers" sit by silent & maybe even approving of it.
Wait'll you see what's coming next if you want to witness spookiness, no one will care about the tenets of the preterist or dispensationalist teachings by the time the 21st century is concluded, the planet will by then have become such a nightmare to live in it'll be hard to imagine how people will cling to their sanity.
8 But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.
--Mat 24
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold.
--Mat 24:12
"People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, brutes, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of religion but denying its power. Avoid them!"-- (2 Tim 3:2-5)
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.--Mat 24
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
--Mat 24
10 "Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.
--Rev 3
"persevere"
G5281
υπομονή
hupomonē
hoop-om-on-ay'
From G5278; cheerful (or hopeful) endurance, constancy: - enduring, patience, patient continuance (waiting).
"endure"
G5278
υπομένω
hupomenō
hoop-om-en'-o
From G5259 and G3306; to stay under (behind), that is, remain; figuratively to undergo, that is, bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere: - abide, endure, (take) patient (-ly), suffer, tarry behind.
Before I was UR, I was a preterist. (This is not to say you can't be preterist and UR- you can. I spent a lot of time reading material and books and articles about prophecy and preterism.
One day, the Lord said, (in my mind) "What are you doing? You're spending a lot of time on stuff that is not of primary importance. You're living in the future and you can only love in the now."
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg146065#msg146065 date=1355176028]
Quote8 But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.
--Mat 24
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold.
--Mat 24:12
"People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, brutes, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of religion but denying its power. Avoid them!"-- (2 Tim 3:2-5)
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.--Mat 24
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
--Mat 24
I would just as soon be a saint asleep in Christ waiting for my resurrection as opposed to one who must "endure". Anyone who desires to "endure" the above will find the conditions may be little different than a Nazi death camp.
Quote10 "Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.
--Rev 3
Well, my opinion is "good luck" even to this endtime ecclesia, they will probably still get plenty of heat for all their endurance pains.
Here's the thing, though.
It's trials which keep us close to Christ and allow him to show us his mighty arm and how much he cares for us. We learn to trust in him and depend on him. We develop a close relationship with him under pressure.
It's a strange thing that when everything is going well, people tend to forget God and think they don't need him
.
I don't know why that is, but it's unfortunate.
Consider it a great joy, my brothers, whenever you experience various trials,
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
--James 1
"patience"
G5281
υπομονή
hupomonē
hoop-om-on-ay'
From G5278; cheerful (or hopeful) endurance, constancy: - enduring, patience, patient continuance (waiting).
17 You say, 'I am rich. I have everything I want. I don't need a thing!' And you don't realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. --Rev 3
Speaking of 2Tim 3
thirteen and fourteen year old boys shoot young mother over a cigarette and post on facebook.
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2012/12/10/beaver-falls-woman-shot/
.......just like the days of Noah[times so evil our heavenly Father even takes pause to this good/evil exercize
set up.] Night before last I was told.'It is painful up here,Sheila." I considered..then the scriptures about
the whole creations groans for the manifestation of the sons of God..and how His Holy spirit grieves
and Him being with all the creation and in His creation through these times.
Thank you so much for sharing that Sheila. It was a timely reminder for me. :HeartThrob:
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg146068#msg146068 date=1355178236]
QuoteIt's trials which keep us close to Christ and allow him to show us his mighty arm and how much he cares for us. We learn to trust in him and depend on him. We develop a close relationship with him under pressure.
There were no atheists left aboard the Titanic by the time it went under the water into its' watery depths, that you can be sure of, a lot of soul searching going on during the short time the ship had left.
QuoteIt's a strange thing that when everything is going well, people tend to forget God and think they don't need him. I don't know why that is, but it's unfortunate.
It's why God causes illnesses & all sorts of evil to fall upon all men & women alike, to keep them constantly reminded of their dependence on a higher power for all that which sustains life. Those who are the least mindful of these things will usually be the ones most distant from their creator, what was that parable about the "rich guy"?
QuoteConsider it a great joy, my brothers, whenever you experience various trials, Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
--James 1
I have a very personal opinion about this verse. The whole idea of considering it a great joy in experiencing trials, it sounds a bit like someone in a prison camp suffering Stockholm Syndrome. No thanks, I don't seek to have a "trying of my faith", I'll just settle for whatever miniscule reward comes to me for the least amount of pain possble, I'm not a glutton for punishment.
Quote17 You say, 'I am rich. I have everything I want. I don't need a thing!' And you don't realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. --Rev 3
For sure this end-time ecclesia will have a tough time of it. Glad I won't share being "purified by fire" that this ecclesia must endure during the great tribulation, three & one half years of the pure hell of Nazi death camps all over again, but I guess it's what God often needs to do to get the attention of those who are his.
The Lord says,
"I was ready to respond, but no one asked for help.
I was ready to be found, but no one was looking for me.
I said, 'Here I am, here I am!'
to a nation that did not call on my name.
2 All day long I opened my arms to a rebellious people.
But they follow their own evil paths
and their own crooked schemes.
3 All day long they insult me to my face
by worshiping idols in their sacred gardens.
They burn incense on pagan altars.
4 At night they go out among the graves,
worshiping the dead.
They eat the flesh of pigs
and make stews with other forbidden foods.
5 Yet they say to each other,
'Don't come too close or you will defile me!
I am holier than you!'
These people are a stench in my nostrils,
an acrid smell that never goes away.
6 "Look, my decree is written out in front of me:
I will not stand silent;
I will repay them in full!
Yes, I will repay them—
7 both for their own sins
and for those of their ancestors,"
says the Lord.
"For they also burned incense on the mountains
and insulted me on the hills.
I will pay them back in full!
8 "But I will not destroy them all,"
says the Lord.
"For just as good grapes are found among a cluster of bad ones
(and someone will say, 'Don't throw them all away—
some of those grapes are good!'),
so I will not destroy all Israel.
For I still have true servants there.
9 I will preserve a remnant of the people of Israel
and of Judah to possess my land.
Those I choose will inherit it,
and my servants will live there.
10 The plain of Sharon will again be filled with flocks
for my people who have searched for me,
and the valley of Achor will be a place to pasture herds.
11 "But because the rest of you have forsaken the Lord
and have forgotten his Temple,
and because you have prepared feasts to honor the god of Fate
and have offered mixed wine to the god of Destiny,
12 now I will 'destine' you for the sword.
All of you will bow down before the executioner.
For when I called, you did not answer.
When I spoke, you did not listen.
You deliberately sinned—before my very eyes—
and chose to do what you know I despise."
13 Therefore, this is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"My servants will eat,
but you will starve.
My servants will drink,
but you will be thirsty.
My servants will rejoice,
but you will be sad and ashamed.
14 My servants will sing for joy,
but you will cry in sorrow and despair.
15 Your name will be a curse word among my people,
for the Sovereign Lord will destroy you
and will call his true servants by another name.
16 All who invoke a blessing or take an oath
will do so by the God of truth.
For I will put aside my anger
and forget the evil of earlier days.
17 "Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth,
and no one will even think about the old ones anymore.
18 Be glad; rejoice forever in my creation!
And look! I will create Jerusalem as a place of happiness.
Her people will be a source of joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and delight in my people.
And the sound of weeping and crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "No longer will babies die when only a few days old.
No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life.
No longer will people be considered old at one hundred!
Only the cursed will die that young!
21 In those days people will live in the houses they build
and eat the fruit of their own vineyards.
22 Unlike the past, invaders will not take their houses
and confiscate their vineyards.
For my people will live as long as trees,
and my chosen ones will have time to enjoy their hard-won gains.
23 They will not work in vain,
and their children will not be doomed to misfortune.
For they are people blessed by the Lord,
and their children, too, will be blessed.
24 I will answer them before they even call to me.
While they are still talking about their needs,
I will go ahead and answer their prayers!
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together.
The lion will eat hay like a cow.
But the snakes will eat dust.
In those days no one will be hurt or destroyed on my holy mountain.
I, the Lord, have spoken!"
--Isaiah 65
Quote from: eaglesway on December 10, 2012, 08:02:34 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 10, 2012, 01:49:48 PM
IMO, Putting preterists in a group and then defining them as ALL believing these things doesn't do them justice just as persons, just as ET'ers put universalists in a group and say what we believe? There are several forms of preterism and some people believe some of their tenets and some believe many. Few believe ALL.
Like ET and UR and ED, verses of scripture may be used to defend all three positions. :Peace2:
Yes, but we do know that two of the three positions are wrong because they cannot include ALL the scripture within their position. UR does that and is IMO a foundation doctrine, or elementary principle of the oracles of God (Hebrews 5:11-15 & 6:1-6).
Eschatology is a little different because it deals with events in play and prophesies not yet clearly defined. The only Preterists I feel are actually heretical are those who teach there is no physical resurrection, a teaching that rejects the foundation doctrine, or elementary principle, of the resurrection of the dead as taught by the jesus and the apostles.
Presently, there is not always a distinct line of demarcation of "Dispensation theology" & "Preterist theology". Most who believe they are in the pure Dispensation camp in fact carry a lot of holdover theology of Preterism, they just haven't figured it out. The RaptureReady site is a perfect example of this.
Dispensation theology is still an evolving concept, it's only about 200 years old, some are further along with it than others. The greatest achievement of Dispensation theology is throwing off many of the shackles of Replacement Theology, however many of those shackles still remain, as by example the notion that the first three chapters of Revelation is an historical account of ages of the Christian Church, however I expect that within a few decades even this error will be recognized by those in the Dispensation theology camp.
As for me, I'm way beyond where 95% of those in the Dispensation camp are, most of them do not believe in Universal Reconciliation that in ages yet future all will be saved, this is their greatest under-achievement to date.
Quote from: Molly on December 06, 2012, 05:30:10 PM
Quote from: Paul L on December 06, 2012, 04:51:53 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 06, 2012, 03:14:38 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2012, 08:30:38 PM
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. --Mat 24
I Thes. 4:15 For this we are saying to you+ by the authority of the Master's Word,
that we who are alive and surviving to the Master's Presence,
shall by no means surpass those who have
fallen asleep. 16 For the Master Himself will descend from heaven at a
shout of command by the voice of a Chief Messenger, and at a blowing
of the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in union with the Anointed
One will first rise up. 17 Then after that, we who are alive and surviving,
will at the same time be seized away together with them into the air
among the clouds to meet the Master, and so we will always be together
with the Master. 18 Therefore, you must be continually encouraging one
another with these words!
Are you trying to equate the above two posts as being similar or dis-similar with regards to an event of Christ's coming to Earth?
The greatest dis-similarity is Matt 24 nowhere alludes to a resurrection, whereas 1Thess 4: 16-17 clearly does. In order to "rise up" to meet him "into the air" requires we also be changed in accordance with Apostle Paul's description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15: 51-54.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Mat 24
So when all these things begin to happen, stand and look up, for your salvation is near!" --Lk 21:28
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
--1 Cor 15
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
--Rev 10
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."
--Rev 11:15
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
--1 Thess 4
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Mat 24
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
--Mark 13
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
--Heb 9:28
All the same event.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYTQ6gpcuYA
:dsunny:
Quoteauthor=micah7:9 link=topic=10395.msg146085#msg146085 date=1355246591]
Quote51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.--1 Cor 15
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.--Rev 10
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.--1 Thess 4
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.--Mat 24
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.--Mark 13
QuoteAll the same event.
What "event" & when? The resurrection of saints spoken of by the Apostle Paul? If there is just one of these resurrections then it occurs in accordance with Rev 20:5 :"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the
first resurrection", doing the math, this is after the millennium is over, not before it.
Now what?
Paul,
I see two resurrections, one, which happens at the end of this age, of the dead in Christ [appropriately called the first resurrection], and one at the end of the millenium rule and reign of Christ and his saints. Do you just see one resurrection?
4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.
--Rev 20
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10395.msg146088#msg146088 date=1355253056]
QuoteI see two resurrections, one, which happens at the end of this age, of the dead in Christ [appropriately called the first resurrection], and one at the end of the millenium rule and reign of Christ and his saints. Do you just see one resurrection?
Actually what I'm attempting to do is to get readers to factually absorb the words present within the texts of Mat 24 & Mark 13.
Within the text of the entirety of Matt 24 & especially highlighting verse 31 there is not one word about dead people coming back to life nor in Mark 13:27, only that a living remnant are being "gathered", a remnant of living people saved out of the Tribulation.
Then if I could get readers to think about the fact that the text is conspicuously absent of language about a "resurrection" of the dead, then maybe I could stir their curiosity as to
why. I was intimating the possibility it's because the resurrection they hope for in Matt 24 & Mark 13 is absent from the text because the 1st resurrection is yet 1000 years beyond Matt 24 & Mark 13. Presently my challenge to them in light of Rev 20:5 is to prove this is not the case.
I *think* this is a really good video with a lot of information.
Chrislam: One World Religion Emerging
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPZTmefDpuc
Whenever a person believes the resurrections take place, it is clear from Rev 20:5 that there is 1000 years between them. The dead and the "rest of the dead".
They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
In Matthew 24:30,31...
30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
This appears to integrate with Paul's take on the relationship between the coming of the Lord and the resurrection.
1 Cor 15;51,52 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed
1Cor 15:20-23 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
2 Thess 2:2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
1 Thess 4:14-17 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
From the parrallel of these verses it seems that Paul saw the gathering at the coming of the Lord to involve a resurrection. IMO there is only one coming of the Lord. It is at the end of this age and commences the millenial reign. He comes "in the clouds", meaning, as I see it, "that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him". Paul is quite clear that the dead in Christ will rise first, and that we "who are alive and remain" will follow the dead in Christ and meet the Lord "in the air".
So what I see is Jesus returning immediatley after the tribulation of those days, at the last trumpet, surrounded by "ten thousands of ten thousands(see hebrews 12, myriads of angels and the spirits of righteous men made perfect). Those who are alive and remain follow immediately after. The "gathering of His elect" that Jesus speaks of is from "the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other".
All this is IMO the first resurrection of Rev 20:5. The "rest of the dead" will not rise until after the thousand years is over.
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Notice the difference between "the four winds of the heavens" and "the four corners of the earth". Where the "elect" and Gog/Magog are gathered.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 2:14-16 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ(Great White Throne), according to my gospel.
In My Opinion the first resurrection is for the overcomers in Christ-it is the resurrection of the reward of the righteous(Philippians 3:7-14). Everyone else follows after in the second resurrection and there are several categories of judgment in it which is the Great White throne judgment- for everyone who rises in the second resurrection, after the 1000 years are done when death and the grave and the sea give up their keep.
I realize all of this is figurative language to a great extent but I think there is some context that can be established through these verses. If "the dead in Christ rise first" and those who remain alive "follow after" and are "gathered together" to "meet the Lord in the air" and shal thus "ever be with the Lord"- then IMO the context of all these other things like the shout, the trumpet, the "clouds", the "gathering" are all speaking of the first resurrection at the beginning of the millenial reign. Peace :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on December 12, 2012, 03:17:21 AM
there is 1000 years between them. The dead and the "rest of the dead".
They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
In Matthew 24:30,31...
30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
:nod:
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2012, 02:48:14 AM
I *think* this is a really good video with a lot of information.
Chrislam: One World Religion Emerging
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPZTmefDpuc
Can't see it on this computer, but found this;
Chrislam's Rick Warren Partnering With Mosques To Teach That God And Allah Are The Same
Rick Warren has decided to spend his time and wealth promoting the hybrid Chrislam religion.
RELATED STORY: Click here to read about Rick Warren's beginnings in Chrislam...
From WND: (OCREGISTER) — The Rev. Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest and one of America's most influential Christian leaders, has embarked on an effort to heal divisions between evangelical Christians and Muslims by partnering with Southern California mosques and proposing a set of theological principles that includes acknowledging that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.
The effort, informally dubbed King's Way, caps years of outreach between Warren and Muslims. Warren has broken Ramadan fasts at a Mission Viejo mosque, met Muslim leaders abroad and addressed 8,000 Muslims at a national convention in Washington D.C.
Saddleback worshippers have invited Muslims to Christmas dinner and played interfaith soccer at a picnic in Irvine attended by more than 300 people. (The game pitted pastors and imams against teens from both faiths. The teens won.)
The effort by a prominent Christian leader to bridge what polls show is a deep rift between Muslims and evangelical Christians culminated in December at a dinner at Saddleback attended by 300 Muslims and members of Saddleback's congregation. source – WND
From Stand Up For The Truth: This past Sunday, a major shift was announced by Pastor Rick Warren at his Saddleback Church in Orange County, California, that has many Christian leaders concerned. As Saddleback hosted its "celebration of Jesus (pbuh)," attended by a number of Muslim communities in Southern California, something theologically significant happened at the dinner portion of the event.
Only a select number of people were invited to the dinner. A document one year in the making was presented which encourages Christians and Muslims to "appreciate the similarities of our faiths." What does this mean? Is it simply a way to reach out a helping hand to the communities in Southern California, or is something more serious happening? source – Stand Up For The Truth
From Time: WASHINGTON — Defying some of his fellow conservative Christian critics, one of the most prominent religious leaders in the country told several thousand American Muslims on Saturday that "the two largest faiths on the planet" must work together to combat stereotypes and solve global problems. source – MSNBC
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=8961
Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God.
The only way to the Christian God is through Jesus Christ and obviously that is not true of Allah, the muslim god. They consider Jesus a prophet of less status than Muhammed.
Rick Warren et al have been bought off by someone, IMO.
Quote from: eagleswayIn My Opinion the first resurrection is for the overcomers in Christ-it is the resurrection of the reward of the righteous(Philippians 3:7-14). Everyone else follows after in the second resurrection and there are several categories of judgment in it which is the Great White throne judgment- for everyone who rises in the second resurrection, after the 1000 years are done when death and the grave and the sea give up their keep.
I realize all of this is figurative language to a great extent but I think there is some context that can be established through these verses. If "the dead in Christ rise first" and those who remain alive "follow after" and are "gathered together" to "meet the Lord in the air" and shal thus "ever be with the Lord"- then IMO the context of all these other things like the shout, the trumpet, the "clouds", the "gathering" are all speaking of the first resurrection at the beginning of the millenial reign. Peace :o)
I agree.
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2012, 03:56:59 AM
Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God.
The only way to the Christian God is through Jesus Christ and obviously that is not true of Allah, the muslim god. They consider Jesus a prophet of less status than Muhammed.
Rick Warren et al have been bought off by someone, IMO.
IMO, that's why we have to be careful about clinging to and standing for sound doctrine. "Deceivers will wax worse and worse..deceiving and being deceived".
A well-known minister said these things. Even more than that, he's a believer in
some form of universal salvation.
"..the operative idea here is that there is a right and wrong theology -- a right God and a wrong God. But this is an invalid premise. All versions of God are the same thing: A HUMAN INTERPRETATION OF THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS."
"God, however, is Spirit and cannot be confined exclusively to any particular religion including Christianity. He's not Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Buddhist; yet, He is all of that if we want or need Him to be.."
"Everyone loves Christ. The word "Messiah" simply means "anointed one." All the religions spiritually overlap and are intertwined. They all have meaning and all should be respected and valued. I'm discovering that the Prophets are basically saying the same thing; it is the theologians that are confused."
"[God is] so inclusive, it's hard to believe. He put the versions of Himself back together in Christ. There's a version of God that's Hindu. There's a version of God that's Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Baha'i. It's so beautiful."
Caveat emptor!
So--I was watching 'I've got a secret' on youtube, a show that happened in 1956, and the guest won the whole pot, which was 80 dollars.
That seemed like a small amount of money for a game show, so I went to the inflation calculator and found out that 80 dollars in 1956 was the equivalent of almost 700 dollars today.
Inflation is the hidden tax. We live with inflation now.
But, the Bible tells us there will be hyperinflation in the last days.
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
--Rev 6.6
This translation makes it a little clearer what is being said:
And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, "A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day's pay. And don't waste the olive oil and wine."
--Rev 6.6
A day of work for a loaf of bread!
What is the average day's wages?
Making some assumptions about an average day's pay for the average American, I calculated that would be 252 dollars in today's money for a loaf of bread.
Bread is currently about 4 dollars.
if bread is worth 4 dollars today and in that day it will be worth 252 dollars, that means each one of today's dollars will be the equivalent of 63 of those future dollars. What will the grocery bill look like? 200 dollars worth of groceries today will cost you 200 x 63 or $12,600 in that day.
Did I do that right? :mshock:
My calculations might be silly, but you get the point. Our money will be quickly becoming worthless.
Who will hyperinflation hurt the most? The poor and the elderly. And, children, because they always get hurt the most.
Are you listening Ben Bernake?
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
--Rev 6
PS That is Christ's voice which is saying a loaf of bread will cost a day's wages, because he is the one standing in the midst of the beasts.
So, take heed! [note to self].
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
--Rev 6.6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
--Rev 5.6
this has to do with Elijah that comes again.. the prince of this world against the King of Kings.....no rain
during Elijah's prophesying..and two wittnesses. there is spiritual bread from heaven provided by
God and the Christ that if a man eat he can live[give us this day our daily bread] that God provides that a
man may live before Him. God has His provisions and the prince of this world his.
the plague of no rain unless they go up..is involved with high prices of material food...as He attempts to
bring men to repentance. Holy spirit wine and oil of God and wine of fornication and oil of the prince of this
world.
the world is in a great spiritual famine for hearing the word of God. He can sustain us during the financial
embargo the prince of this world uses in spiritual warfare.Also God will 'trouble' those that trouble us.......
and famine/drought,war,pestilence plagues are worked against the prince of this world
many years ago..material food miraculously appeared for me to eat....I have no doubt in His power to sustain
my physical body if He choose...Elijah fed of raven...widows oil and flour.
count everything you have in this material world as dross..for satan can and will use it against you to
compel you to take the mark of the beast to keep it. parable of man that found pearl in field...seek ye first
the kingdom of heaven.....
Just as the days of Noah...financial/political evil spirit giants/corporations will consume resources on this earth.
monsanto etc. .until the earth
be covered with the knowledge of God as with water. the time for destroying those who destroy the earth.
then God's temple in heaven was opened,and within His temple was seen the ark of the Covenant.[shut the door
behind you til the wrath be passed]..
and there came flashes of lightening[east to the west] rumblings peals of thunder an earthquake and
a great hail storm[coming on the clouds of heaven]For the son of man shall be like lightening which flashes
and lights up the sky from one end to the other,but first He must suffer many things and be rejected of this
generation. It will be justb like this on the day the son of man is revealed
it has been wittnessed that the kings of this earth work economic embargoes and hardship on peoples
that do not assent with their plans. It also is wittnessed that God takes away vineyards,provisions etc
from the people when they harden their heart in rebellion. Be prepared for these things[and I do not mean
by storing up material provisions where robbers and theives break in] but prepare yourself spiritually
and store up your treasure in heaven[better inheritance] keep seeking the kingdom of heaven.
WOW. Good word!!! :cloud9: :HeartThrob:
I feel the same way. If God can rain manna down from heaven for the Israelites in the wilderness and destroy the rich with a breath, why would we want to even try to put our trust in anything else?
Quote from: sheila on December 12, 2012, 07:10:56 PM
.seek ye first
the kingdom of heaven...until the earth
be covered with the knowledge of God as with water. the time for destroying those who destroy the earth.
then God's temple in heaven was opened,and within His temple was seen the ark of the Covenant.[shut the door
behind you til the wrath be passed]..
and there came flashes of lightening[east to the west] rumblings peals of thunder an earthquake and
a great hail storm[coming on the clouds of heaven]For the son of man shall be like lightening which flashes
and lights up the sky from one end to the other,but first He must suffer many things and be rejected of this
generation. prepare yourself spiritually
and store up your treasure in heaven[better inheritance] keep seeking the kingdom of heaven.
amen!
Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10395.msg146098#msg146098 date=1355275041]
QuoteIn Matthew 24:30,31...
30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
So where's the resurrection here? If there is a resurrection of the dead here, why is Christ himself not coming to do this gathering of the elect? The text clearly states he is sending angels to do the gathering, angels do not possess the power of resurrection, only Christ does.
QuoteThis appears to integrate with Paul's take on the relationship between the coming of the Lord and the resurrection.
In spite of the stark dis-similarity I just pointed out immediately above this quote of yours?
Therefore:
1Cor 15:20-23 ....... "in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive....."
2 Thess 2:1-2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him.......
Quote1 Thess 4:14-17 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
......you bet, because only he has the power to give life, angels gathering the elect in Matt 24:31 are impotent to do so. Therefore, because it is Christ's intention at this coming to also bring the dead back to life, therefore it is he who must do the gathering, not angels.
Quote....l the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
In finality why is the Lord himself descending & doing the gathering "
himself"? Because only he has the power to give life to the dead at the resurrection, angels who gather the elect in Matt 24:31 do not have this power, this is exactly the reason why there is no mention of a resurrection in Matt 24:31.
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2012, 03:56:59 AM
Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God.
The only way to the Christian God is through Jesus Christ and obviously that is not true of Allah, the muslim god. They consider Jesus a prophet of less status than Muhammed.
Rick Warren et al have been bought off by someone, IMO.
Molly only God knows the secrets which lay in the heart of man ( and woman)
The Black Horseman of Revelation 6
Behold, a black horse...
He is heralding death by famine.
There shall be...famine...
--Luke 21:11
There will be famines...
--Mat 24:7
One day's pay for that day's food for one person. How do you pay for food for your family? How do you pay for other necessities?
A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny;
--Rev 6:6
The Black Horseman of famine rides behind the Red Horseman of war. This famine will happen in the context of war.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
--Rev 6
The pair of scales in the Black Horseman's hand suggest that the food supply is being rationed. It also suggests only those who can pay will get food. And, only those who can work will get paid. Inflation destroys those who cannot work because of age or sickness, the poor, the young, the old, the ill-prepared.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny...
--Rev 6
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. --Mat 24:22
let the wheat and tares grow togather.....then He says to the angels...first gather the tares and bind them
into bundles for burning...then...gather in the wheat to my storehouse.. Do Not store up for
yourselves treasures on earth..where moths and rust consume...STORE UP FOR YOURSELVES
TREASURE IN HEAVEN
Quote from: Molly on December 13, 2012, 02:11:59 AM
The Black Horseman of Revelation 6
There shall be...famine...
One day's pay for that day's food for one person. How do you pay for food for your family? How do you pay for other necessities?
A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny;
--Rev 6:6
The pair of scales in the Black Horseman's hand suggest that the food supply is being rationed. It also suggests only those who can pay will get food. And, only those who can work will get paid. Inflation destroys those who cannot work because of age or sickness, the poor, the young, the old, the ill-prepared.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny...
--Rev 6
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. --Mat 24:22
Molly, this prompts me to mention a couple of things;
a penny for a bushel doesn't sound like much...but perhaps taking inflation into account, and/or that's it not literal may answer that
"work = eat"...what about the mark, "can neither buy nor sell"? Maybe work=eat is only applying to those in the system, while God's flock is being protected in some other manner...
A measure of wheat for a penny - See the margin. The word rendered "measure" - χοινιξ choinix - denotes an Attic measure for grain and things dry, equal to the 48th part of the Attic medimnus, or the 8th part of the Roman modius, and consequently was nearly equivalent to one quart English (Robinson's Lexicon). The word rendered "penny," δηναρίον dēnarion - Latin, denarius - was of the same value as the Greek δραχμή drachmē, and was equivalent to about fourteen cents or seven-pence (circa mid-19th century). This was the usual price of a day's labor, Matthew 20:2, Matthew 20:9. The choenix, or measure of grain here referred to, was the ordinary daily allowance for one man (Odyssey xix. 27, 28). See Stuart, in loco. The common price of the Attic medimnus of wheat was five or six denarii; but here, as that contained 48 choenixes or quarts, the price would be augmented to 48 denarii - or it would be about eight times as dear as ordinary; that is, there would be a scarcity or famine. The price of a bushel of wheat at this rate would be about four dollars and a half or 18 shillings - a price which would indicate great scarcity, and which would give rise to much distress.
--Barnes notes
So there you have it. A bushel of wheat costs 8 times normal. A man has to work all day to pay for his daily food. No work, no food.
It's a pretty simple equation of scarcity, inflation, and famine.
Will God's people be somehow outside this system? I don't know, yet.
I only know he's warning us.
in some parts of the world that's already true. Been to the grocery store lately? american drought is not over..
but continuing.
Zec 11:6-17
(6) "For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of the land," declares the LORD; "but behold, I will cause the men to fall, each into another's power and into the power of his king; and they will strike the land, and I will not deliver them from their power."
(7) So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock.
(8) Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me.
(9) Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
(10) I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.
(11) So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD.
(12) I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.
(13) Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
(14) Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
(15) The LORD said to me, "Take again for yourself the equipment of a foolish shepherd.
(16) "For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.
(17) "Woe to the worthless shepherd Who leaves the flock! A sword will be on his arm And on his right eye! His arm will be totally withered And his right eye will be blind."
When God breaks the staffs Favor and Union, nobody likes you and you don't like each other.
Lev 26:26 'When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied.
Eze 4:16 Moreover, He said to me, "Son of man, behold, I am going to break the staff of bread in Jerusalem, and they will eat bread by weight and with anxiety, and drink water by measure and in horror,
Psa 105:16 And He called for a famine upon the land; He broke the whole staff of bread.
When God breaks the staff of bread then famine overtakes the people.
God breaks these staffs because of the backslidings of the people, to regain their attention.
[
Quote from: eaglesway on December 13, 2012, 06:42:25 AM
Zec 11:6-17
(6) "For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of the land," declares the LORD; "but behold, I will cause the men to fall, each into another's power and into the power of his king; and they will strike the land, and I will not deliver them from their power."
(7) So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock.
(8) Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me.
(9) Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
(10) I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.
(11) So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD.
(12) I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.
(13) Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
(14) Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
(15) The LORD said to me, "Take again for yourself the equipment of a foolish shepherd.
(16) "For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.
(17) "Woe to the worthless shepherd Who leaves the flock! A sword will be on his arm And on his right eye! His arm will be totally withered And his right eye will be blind."
When God breaks the staffs Favor and Union, nobody likes you and you don't like each other.
Lev 26:26 'When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied.
Eze 4:16 Moreover, He said to me, "Son of man, behold, I am going to break the staff of bread in Jerusalem, and they will eat bread by weight and with anxiety, and drink water by measure and in horror,
Psa 105:16 And He called for a famine upon the land; He broke the whole staff of bread.
When God breaks the staff of bread then famine overtakes the people.
God breaks these staffs because of the backslidings of the people, to regain their attention.
By Favor and Union a nation is exalted
By Bread a nation is powered
But man is not powered by bread alone- rather, by every word that Cometh out of the mouth of God.
When man quits listening
Favor is lost, Union disintegrates and Bread becomes scarc e
Quote from: jabcat on December 12, 2012, 06:24:46 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2012, 03:56:59 AM
Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God.
The only way to the Christian God is through Jesus Christ and obviously that is not true of Allah, the muslim god. They consider Jesus a prophet of less status than Muhammed.
Rick Warren et al have been bought off by someone, IMO.
IMO, that's why we have to be careful about clinging to and standing for sound doctrine. "Deceivers will wax worse and worse..deceiving and being deceived".
A well-known minister said these things. Even more than that, he's a believer in some form of universal salvation.
"..the operative idea here is that there is a right and wrong theology -- a right God and a wrong God. But this is an invalid premise. All versions of God are the same thing: A HUMAN INTERPRETATION OF THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS."
"God, however, is Spirit and cannot be confined exclusively to any particular religion including Christianity. He's not Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Buddhist; yet, He is all of that if we want or need Him to be.."
"Everyone loves Christ. The word "Messiah" simply means "anointed one." All the religions spiritually overlap and are intertwined. They all have meaning and all should be respected and valued. I'm discovering that the Prophets are basically saying the same thing; it is the theologians that are confused."
"[God is] so inclusive, it's hard to believe. He put the versions of Himself back together in Christ. There's a version of God that's Hindu. There's a version of God that's Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Baha'i. It's so beautiful."
Caveat emptor!
I like the idea and also believe other religions can promote peace and Godly principles, but my concern is that the scriptural truth and authority of Christ is lost in the blur, where Christ is just one path of many. It seems impossible but the other religions must submit to the authority of Christ. They probably would say the same thing about their God, so the "democratic" thing is to compromise and we all sheepily say that all religions have a path towards God.
As yet we do not see a version of Christianity worthy of submitting to. Come Quickly Lord Jesus!
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 08, 2012, 02:44:41 PM
I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.
I can GUARANTEE whether pre triber, mid triber or post triber that Most Christians will escape the tribulation.
That's because when Michael defeats satan and then blows his horn with the voice of God, most Christians will be sleeping in their graves.
Many having already endured great tribulation and having overcome by the grace of God :o)
So--when Jesus returns. the angels will gather his elect from one part of earth to the other and one part of heaven to the other. Does that mean an angel will appear to me and say, 'It's time," the way the angels came for Lot?
That the saints should be scattered all over the earth is not surprising. But, what I don't see anyone mentioning is that there are all these saints scattered all over heaven. Who are they? The so-called 'dead in Christ'? And, these so-called dead in Christ actually return with Jesus for the first resurrection. How can this be?
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Mat 24
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
--1 Thess 4
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
--Mark 13
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, --Jude 1
The 'holy ones,' hagios, 'saints' who are the 'dead in Christ' will have a front row seat to their own resurrection. But, meanwhile they are doing whatever one does in heaven.
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor 5
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
--John 11
Quoteauthor=thinktank link=topic=10395.msg146186#msg146186 date=1355438746]
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 08, 2012, 02:44:41 PM
I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.
QuoteI can GUARANTEE whether pre triber, mid triber or post triber that Most Christians will escape the tribulation.
That's because when Michael defeats satan and then blows his horn with the voice of God, most Christians will be sleeping in their graves.
This is the best response I have ever seen put into in words over this controversy. So often I have thought about the concept......you penned the words.
So--when Jesus returns. the angels will gather his elect from one part of earth to the other and one part of heaven to the other. Does that mean an angel will appear to me and say, 'It's time," the way the angels came for Lot?
Molly
No he comes like a thief in the night. when these things begin to come to pass, look up your redemption draweth nigh.
Although by faith I hope God will give us a weeks or 24 hour warning to prepare and sanctify ourselves like Ether did with the king.
Quote from: Paul L on December 14, 2012, 03:37:04 AM
Quoteauthor=thinktank link=topic=10395.msg146186#msg146186 date=1355438746]
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 08, 2012, 02:44:41 PM
I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.
QuoteI can GUARANTEE whether pre triber, mid triber or post triber that Most Christians will escape the tribulation.
That's because when Michael defeats satan and then blows his horn with the voice of God, most Christians will be sleeping in their graves.
This is the best response I have ever seen put into in words over this controversy. So often I have thought about the concept......you penned the words.
Thank you brother, God bless you.
Quote from: thinktank on December 14, 2012, 03:41:46 AM
So--when Jesus returns. the angels will gather his elect from one part of earth to the other and one part of heaven to the other. Does that mean an angel will appear to me and say, 'It's time," the way the angels came for Lot?
Molly
No he comes like a thief in the night. when these things begin to come to pass, look up your redemption draweth nigh.
Although by faith I hope God will give us a weeks or 24 hour warning to prepare and sanctify ourselves like Ether did with the king.
TT, if you don't stop posting for the night, I won't be able to get any sleep because you've got me laughing so hard with your uproariously insightful humor. Two posts in a row, right on the mark............luv ya guy. (by the way, is that a real picture of you we see?).
Quote from: thinktank on December 14, 2012, 12:45:46 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 08, 2012, 02:44:41 PM
I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.
I can GUARANTEE whether pre triber, mid triber or post triber that Most Christians will escape the tribulation.
That's because when Michael defeats satan and then blows his horn with the voice of God, most Christians will be sleeping in their graves.
That's interesting tank..how do you think they/we get there? If most are sleeping, that sounds like martyrdom to me :mshock: - which sounds like tribulation. But I'm likely missing something, so I'm asking what you see here? Tanks :).
Quote from: Molly on December 13, 2012, 04:26:50 AM
A measure of wheat for a penny - See the margin. The word rendered "measure" - χοινιξ choinix - denotes an Attic measure for grain and things dry, equal to the 48th part of the Attic medimnus, or the 8th part of the Roman modius, and consequently was nearly equivalent to one quart English (Robinson's Lexicon). The word rendered "penny," δηναρίον dēnarion - Latin, denarius - was of the same value as the Greek δραχμή drachmē, and was equivalent to about fourteen cents or seven-pence (circa mid-19th century). This was the usual price of a day's labor, Matthew 20:2, Matthew 20:9. The choenix, or measure of grain here referred to, was the ordinary daily allowance for one man (Odyssey xix. 27, 28). See Stuart, in loco. The common price of the Attic medimnus of wheat was five or six denarii; but here, as that contained 48 choenixes or quarts, the price would be augmented to 48 denarii - or it would be about eight times as dear as ordinary; that is, there would be a scarcity or famine. The price of a bushel of wheat at this rate would be about four dollars and a half or 18 shillings - a price which would indicate great scarcity, and which would give rise to much distress.
--Barnes notes
So there you have it. A bushel of wheat costs 8 times normal. A man has to work all day to pay for his daily food. No work, no food.
It's a pretty simple equation of scarcity, inflation, and famine.
Will God's people be somehow outside this system? I don't know, yet.
I only know he's warning us.
Good, interesting info Molly. Thanks!
He will come as a thief in the night to others, but not to us because we are children of the day and we are watching for his return.
Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters,[a] we don't really need to write you. 2 For you know quite well that the day of the Lord's return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night. 3 When people are saying, "Everything is peaceful and secure," then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman's labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.
4 But you aren't in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won't be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief. 5 For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don't belong to darkness and night. 6 So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded. 7 Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk. 8 But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation.
9 For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us. 10 Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever. 11 So encourage each other and build each other up, just as you are already doing.
--1 Thess 5
"I know all the things you do, and that you have a reputation for being alive—but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the requirements of my God. 3 Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don't wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief. Rev 3
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2012, 04:08:42 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 13, 2012, 04:26:50 AM
A measure of wheat for a penny - See the margin. The word rendered "measure" - χοινιξ choinix - denotes an Attic measure for grain and things dry, equal to the 48th part of the Attic medimnus, or the 8th part of the Roman modius, and consequently was nearly equivalent to one quart English (Robinson's Lexicon). The word rendered "penny," δηναρίον dēnarion - Latin, denarius - was of the same value as the Greek δραχμή drachmē, and was equivalent to about fourteen cents or seven-pence (circa mid-19th century). This was the usual price of a day's labor, Matthew 20:2, Matthew 20:9. The choenix, or measure of grain here referred to, was the ordinary daily allowance for one man (Odyssey xix. 27, 28). See Stuart, in loco. The common price of the Attic medimnus of wheat was five or six denarii; but here, as that contained 48 choenixes or quarts, the price would be augmented to 48 denarii - or it would be about eight times as dear as ordinary; that is, there would be a scarcity or famine. The price of a bushel of wheat at this rate would be about four dollars and a half or 18 shillings - a price which would indicate great scarcity, and which would give rise to much distress.
--Barnes notes
So there you have it. A bushel of wheat costs 8 times normal. A man has to work all day to pay for his daily food. No work, no food.
It's a pretty simple equation of scarcity, inflation, and famine.
Will God's people be somehow outside this system? I don't know, yet.
I only know he's warning us.
Good, interesting info Molly. Thanks!
Its interesting that God tells his horseman, not to hurt the oil or wine. Oil and wine are often used by Christians throughout the scriptures and wine is used in communion. It could be that believers are spared in some sense.
QuoteTT, if you don't stop posting for the night, I won't be able to get any sleep because you've got me laughing so hard with your uproariously insightful humor. Two posts in a row, right on the mark............luv ya guy. (by the way, is that a real picture of you we see?).
:friendstu:. No the pic is of Bono a singer in a band called U2. He's kind of a Christian, giving to charity etc.
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2012, 04:07:07 AM
Quote from: thinktank on December 14, 2012, 12:45:46 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 08, 2012, 02:44:41 PM
I've read anti-pre-trib books before and they all say that pre-trib is an idea that has only come along in the last 200 years. Is that true? I think that people think we are doubly special to escape tribulation are wishful thinkers and want pre-trib to be true. "All will be as it was in the days of Noah" there was no "snatching up" prior to the flood.
I can GUARANTEE whether pre triber, mid triber or post triber that Most Christians will escape the tribulation.
That's because when Michael defeats satan and then blows his horn with the voice of God, most Christians will be sleeping in their graves.
That's interesting tank..how do you think they/we get there? If most are sleeping, that sounds like martyrdom to me :mshock: - which sounds like tribulation. But I'm likely missing something, so I'm asking what you see here? Tanks :).
The typical church teaching, is that the bodies of the saints, of all generations await in their graves, until the harvest of the earth is ripe. The spirits have already gone home to the Lord and await the redemption of their bodies. So all these will miss the tribulation, great tribulation. The ones left alive will not have to experience death, but be translated.
The thoughts I had once were similar to this, except that there were two groups of the dead in Christ. Those like Paul who depart and went to be with Christ and in some sense continue to minister in heaven and others, possibly e.g Ellen G white who go to sleep in Christ, to depart in peace and take a rest from their lifes journey in order to regather strength to enter heavenly places. The only reason I mention Ellen G white is because she popularized the soul sleep doctrine and what you sow you reap so to speak.
So the basic premise is that entering heaven is no easy task and requires a strong saint to be in the presence of the Lord, as even the prophets had a hard time being in the Lords presence.
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."
--J. Edgar Hoover
"People yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands."
--David Rockefeller
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
--George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."
The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a intruder with a gun trying to rob your house he shoots you in the back and you are crippled .
The whole community is handicapped by a mentally unstable person you has recently
been given or has recently purchased a semi auto assault rifle. He shoots indiscriminately and kills what is innocent, thus crippling the whole community
The American gun culture, wheelchairs or small coffins.
God bless the Canadian Gun laws.
funny these 'lone gunmen' only target gun-free-zones.
It's time for no more gun free zones, since we are clearly under attack.
Of all the movie theaters in Aurora, Colorado, the 'lone gunman' and his buds picked the one theater that was a gun free zone. He passed by theaters that were bigger and closer to his home in order to visit the one theater where he knew no one would be armed.
Had he and his buds visited any other local theater, they most likely would have been taken out quickly by one of the many concealed carry citizens in Colorado.
But, I will agree, thank goodness you are in Canada.
So we will arm one school with hand guns.
We give the other school semi automatic assault rifles.
Which school do want to belong to?
Arm them any way you want.
Just make sure they are armed.
Arm a few teachers or hire a few guards or volunteer citizens.
It's not rocket science.
Like I said, we are under attack.
Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
How terrible it is for the earth and the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, filled with rage, knowing that his time is short!" Rev 12:12
I saw the discussion, and decided to paste a post from another site which caught my eye:
"My god, the US government have just poisoned Iraq for 4.5 Billion years with not a care in the world! And you think the government cares about 20 odd children in a school! My god, how stupid are people! If Obama wanted to save children why doesnt he say, OK the US is responsible for uranium poisoning of thouands and we need to save all those children so lets clean it all up.
If people honestly believe the US government has childrens best interests at heart then your heading for the shock of your life. Look at the history of the US government and the war crimes worse than germany. And you want these war criminals to take your guns?
My god, you cant make this stuff up!!!
I can show you what the US government does to children, but the photos from vietnam, Iraq and elsewhere are just too damn graphic. So dont tell me that the government cares about children, ever.
They only want more power over the people to solidify their position to a permenant one. If people cannot see that then all is lost."
I did not edit that at all. It tells me that the US (a corporation, not a country) has sown to the wind, and now we are all reaping the whirlwind. God is still no respecter of persons. As a Christian writer, whose pamphlets I used to read, said (and I paraphrase), why are your children dead and/or missing? Look in the mirror...
Oh, look, she must have been working all weekend on this. I'm shocked and surprised!
"Dianne Feinstein To Introduce Assault Weapons Ban On First Day Of Congress "
Can't have anything around that could shoot down those 15000 new drones, could they?
But, meanwhile, the DOJ is supplying them to drug cartels under the name, fast and furious. So arm the enemy, disarm the good guy. It's a plan!
we all need to start praying reall real hard for all the leaders on this planet. Because of their High Positions
the Prince of this world manipulates them and targets them to cause much harm and evil.
None of these Christian ministers are ending their prayers,
"In Jesus name we pray, "
What is this?
Were they told not to do this?
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2012, 03:30:11 AM
None of these Christian ministers are ending their prayers,
"In Jesus name we pray, "
What is this?
Were they told not to do this?
Some IRS agent probably told them that it endangered their 501(c)3 status.
The solution is mental health and gun control.
Only those deemed mentally healthy may have guns.
And, we know from the history of communist Russia, that's not us.
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2012, 04:28:32 AM
The solution is mental health and gun control.
Only those deemed mentally healthy may have guns.
And, we know from the history of communist Russia, that's not us.
No comprehende, por favor explicaré :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on December 17, 2012, 09:23:48 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2012, 04:28:32 AM
The solution is mental health and gun control.
Only those deemed mentally healthy may have guns.
And, we know from the history of communist Russia, that's not us.
No comprehende, por favor explicaré :o)
The communists consider a belief in God a mental health issue.
In other words, Estas loco, senor. :laugh:
We don't need government telling us if we can or can't own guns. I believe americans have a right to simple handguns for self protection. I do NOT believe we have a need for armor piercing bullets, assault rifles, automatic weapons, silencers, etc. The guns owned by the shooter in Conn. were all illegal since he was under 21 (State law in Conn.)
Proves that if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.
Even the apostles carried swords (guns of their day) for self protection.
Why didn't Jesus carry a sword? Because, he said, at any time could call down legions of Angels to his defense.
Two districts in PA have given their security guards permission to carry guns today.
They are no longer a 'soft target.' :thumbsup:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 17, 2012, 04:37:34 PM
We don't need government telling us if we can or can't own guns. I believe americans have a right to simple handguns for self protection. I do NOT believe we have a need for armor piercing bullets, assault rifles, automatic weapons, silencers, etc. The guns owned by the shooter in Conn. were all illegal since he was under 21 (State law in Conn.)
Proves that if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.
Even the apostles carried swords (guns of their day) for self protection.
Why didn't Jesus carry a sword? Because, he said, at any time could call down legions of Angels to his defense.
If our own gov't is giving automatic weapons to drug cartels [fast and furious], we most certainly do need to have access to the same guns ourselves.
This boy broke every law in the book, including gun laws, thereby proving more gun laws will not help. Five times as many people die each year in automobile accidents. Let's outlaw cars first. Guns are banned in Chicago and it's the gunshot victim capital of the country. Twelve people shot in gun free Chicago LAST WEEKEND.
But, I do prefer the angel defense, myself, and have used it more than once.
I'm with you Molly. Part of the reason I love Texas so much. Very few take a chance that they are going to encounter "helpless victims" in Texas. Everyone carries. As for having weapons equal to the drug cartels? They have those weapons to be superior in weaponry to the cops and feds. We, as citizens would only encounter a heavily armed drug dealer by accident since we aren't dealing drugs, working undercover, or trying to take down the cartel or gang in a raid.
The weapon this boy had was not an assault weapon, btw, as I was told by someone who knows guns, it was a rifle with a cartridge.
It just looks scary.
A girlfriend of mine just bought one like this because it was easier for her to use.
Probably the same reason the perp's mother had one.
But, this gun is being targetted, so be careful to understand that by 'assault weapons' they want to outlaw rifles with cartridges attached. This is probably not something any self respecting drug cartel would use. But, of all the guns she tried, this type of gun was easiest for a woman to use who was just looking for something she would feel comfortable handling.
So, again, I say no to any ban.
..it is because satan has come down to you..that lawlessness increases..and the love of many wax cold.
therefore the government authorities make more and more laws to restrain the lawless ones[men taken
captive of satan to do his will] same reason laws added to Isreal.
Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities,to be ready to do whatever is good.....
In Jesus day Isreal was in rebellion to God and subjected to Rome..Isrealites raised up in rebellion
against Roman authorities..periodically. Because of this..Jesus as Isreal's King was perceived and named
as a threat against Roman authorities[we have no king but Ceaser!!!] Can you not see the trap and snare
laid by the kingdom of darkness in both the religious realm and national?
fallen religious leaders used accusatory sedition against government to persecute the true church....indeed
a great persecution of peaceful christians were fed to lions/beasts in the arenal..and blamed for
setting fires.. this government is already looking at the apostasized churches as a threat[all religious zealots]
can you not perceive the times we are in.?
if they ask for your outer garment..give them your inner garment also....Give Ceaser his due..and God his.
now...if you have a vote and opionion regarding gun control..that is your right..but if they pass a law
making it illegal..you must obey in the Lord..and Not be in rebellion to the authorities..as I hear out there
on the internet....and as the world governments monitor also.You must Not stir up dissension
the hour of trial is upon us..being hidden IN CHRIST is your only sure protection. Perilous times are upon us.
p.s. mankind that is horribly overcome by the evil one and become a cage of demons will wax worse....
the body of humanity will all suffer[when one member suffers we all do] governments are overcome..
merchants,religion..family..schools
the angel of the abyss does not hurt those with the seal of God in their forehead[first woe]
2nd woe death to the third that are fallen[dragon that darkened a third of sun,moon stars to not shine]
this calls for patient endurance on the saints who remain faithful to God's commandments and remain
faithful to Jesus....then I heard a voice from heaven say,'blessed are the dead who die in the Lord
from now on"
SO HE THAT WAS SE3ATED ON THE CLOUD[COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN]
SWUNG HIS SICKLE OVER THE EARTH,AND THE EARTH WAS HARVESTED
There are literally millions of Americans who do not own
fire arms.
What level of Faith must these people have.
Imagine no fore arms , just trusting in the Lord.
Sheila that made me cry.
Daj AMEN.
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2012, 04:48:58 PM
Two districts in PA have given their security guards permission to carry guns today.
They are no longer a 'soft target.' :thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2012, 04:54:55 PM
But, I do prefer the angel defense, myself, and have used it more than once.
:thumbsup:
I CAN'T VERIFY THIS..BUT MAYBE SOMEONE CAN. I JUST READ ABOUT A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE AURORA
MASS KILLING AND THE SANDYHOOK ONE. SEEMS BOTH THIER FATHERS ARE WITTNESS'S TO
THE LIBOR SCANDAL CASE. :dontknow: THIS COULD BE VERY INTERESTING IS IT IS TRUE..I MEAN...
LIKE WHAT ARE THE ODDS.?
Quote from: sheila on December 18, 2012, 12:36:30 AM
I CAN'T VERIFY THIS..BUT MAYBE SOMEONE CAN. I JUST READ ABOUT A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE AURORA
MASS KILLING AND THE SANDYHOOK ONE. SEEMS BOTH THIER FATHERS ARE WITTNESS'S TO
THE LIBOR SCANDAL CASE. :dontknow: THIS COULD BE VERY INTERESTING IS IT IS TRUE..I MEAN...
LIKE WHAT ARE THE ODDS.?
Reportedly they were both set to testify. Surely our honest leaders wouldn't be involved somehow, trying to distract or cover, would they?
("When one hand's doing something, keep your eye on the other hand.")
Pick our battles well. I believe it's a time to discern when it's time to speak up, and when it's best to keep quiet. :2c:
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2012, 05:59:59 PM
So, again, I say no to any ban.
IMO, a tool's not the problem. It's what controls the hand using it.
Sheila, I've read that, too, but I don't know a lot about it.
But, take a look at this--the map from the Batman movie, Dark KNight Rises. This is the movie which was playing in the Aurora, Colorado movie theater during the shooting last summer.
Here's the map. Scroll down and see on the bottom left it shows 'Strike Zone 1' at SANDY HOOK.
http://batmangothamcity.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Gotham-map-Dark-Knight-Rises.jpg
We also just suffered through Hurricane Sandy. Look at this article from the weather channel. Remember how that hurricane barreled up the coast and took a hard left into NYC? They are calling it Sandy's Hook here. And, for sure, that hard left turn was the strangest thing I've ever seen a hurricane do.
'Sandy's Hook: How Unusual Is This? '
http://www.weather.com/news/weather-hurricanes/hurricane-unusual-northeast-track-20121024
Is all this a coincidence? Satan is the prince of the air. Maybe you could talk about that, Sheila. They have been trying to destroy our Constitution for as long as I can remember, and they have almost done it. There are many evil groups that would love to see a disarmed America. It drives them crazy that our population is armed to the teeth. And, these armed are 99 percent law abiding citizens. It greatly distresses me that anyone would use this tragedy, not even two days old, to push their agenda of disarming us. It is such a cynical use of the precious lives of these children. That tells you something about the messenger. At the very least, they were waiting to pounce like anxious predators. They couldn't even make it through one funeral. Just like 11 years ago at 911. Within two weeks they were stripping the 4th and 5th amendments. The second amendment is the backbone of this country. Do not let them touch it.
Don't sell your birthright for a bowl of pottage and a pretense of security...
Especially when Dark Night Rises is their message to us.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
--Jn 3:19
THE NIGHT COMES..WHEN NO MAN CAN WORK..THE HOUR OF THE POWER OF DARKNESS...
I READ THE OTHER THINGS TOO,MOLLY...THE HOUR OF TRIAL HE KEEPS US THROUGH?
PEOPLE TALK ABOUT SHADOW GOVERMENT..EVER HEAR OF SHADOW PEOPLE?
THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME...KINGDOM OF DARKNESS...
.
THE PRINCE OF THE AIR...FATHER USES IRONIC HUMOUR WHEN HE CALLS HIM THAT......BECAUSE
HE JUST KEEPS FALLING AND FALLING IN SPIRALS SINCE THROWN OUT OFHEAVEN..
NOW THE WISE MAN BUILT HIS HOUSE UPON THE ROCK..BUT THE FOOLISH MAN BUILT HIS
HOUSE UPON THE SAND...... ANDTHE DRAGON STOOD ON THE SHORE[SAND] OF THE SEA...
NOW THE ROCK IS THE LORD..AND SAND IS WASHED AWAY ROCK BY FLOODWATERS OF DRAGON..
MAN OVERCOME BY DRAGON WATERS IS SAND..AND THE DRAGON GAVE THE BEAST HIS POWER AND
THRONE AND GREAT AUTHORITY..........[HE KNOWS HIS TIME IS SHORT.....
Funny, President Obama says we can "Tolerate no more" of these tragedies. He cannot see that these tragedies are on the increase because of the great illness of heart in this nation given over to hedonism and greed.
Behold the harlot, who was once a faithful city, but is now become a whore.
Chaos is the floodgate of the godless.
The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled, for the LORD has spoken this word.
The earth mourns and withers, the world fades and withers, the exalted of the people of the earth fade away.
The earth is also polluted by its inhabitants, for they transgressed laws, violated statutes, broke the everlasting covenant. Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live in it are held guilty.
Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left. The new wine mourns, The vine decays, All the merry-hearted sigh. The gaiety of tambourines ceases, The noise of revelers stops, The gaiety of the harp ceases. They do not drink wine with song; Strong drink is bitter to those who drink it.
The city of chaos(tohu) is broken down; Every house is shut up so that none may enter. There is an outcry in the streets concerning the wine; All joy turns to gloom.
The gaiety of the earth is banished. Desolation is left in the city And the gate is battered to ruins.
For thus it will be in the midst of the earth among the peoples, As the shaking of an olive tree, As the gleanings when the grape harvest is over.
They raise their voices, they shout for joy; They cry out from the west concerning the majesty of the LORD. Therefore glorify the LORD in the east, The name of the LORD, the God of Israel, In the coastlands of the sea. From the ends of the earth we hear songs, "Glory to the Righteous One,"
But I say, "Woe to me! Woe to me! Alas for me! The treacherous deal treacherously, And the treacherous deal very treacherously."
Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
The earth is broken asunder,
The earth is split through,
The earth is shaken violently.
The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth. They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.
Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed,
For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders.
(Isa 24:3-23)
Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Rev 5:13-14)
ohhhh glory!
Quote from: eaglesway on December 18, 2012, 02:24:53 AM
Funny, President Obama says we can "Tolerate no more" of these tragedies. He cannot see that these tragedies are on the increase because of the great illness of heart in this nation given over to hedonism and greed.
Behold the harlot, who was once a faithful city, but is now become a whore.
Chaos is the floodgate of the godless.
"...hedonism and greed." You forgot violence and murder. The errand-boy Obama, latest of a long line of errand boys, talks a good talk while wiping non-existent tears from his cheeks. He may or may not be aware that forces in his own government are killing men, women, and children in Afghanistan, counting bodies and reporting X-number of terrorists killed. But it is we who terrorize. The same forces [M*K U*l*t*r*a] train susceptible people who carry out mass murder on Americans, but these people never, never get to say their piece, from LHO onward. I'm just glad that the Stone will soon strike those feet of iron and clay. So soon it will be like a bad dream...
"Chaos" is the name we give to our failure to understand the principles governing events around us.
Please excuse the rant - current events get me so angry that I wrote this post...
Ranting is good. Even God rants from time to time.
7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
--Ex 32
Rant, don't shoot.
:soap:
[notice how he says to Moses, 'YOUR people.]
Even God gets a good rant on once in awhile :o)
Scotland — If there's anywhere that understands the pain of Newtown, it's Dunblane, the town whose grief became a catalyst for changes to Britain's gun laws.
In March 1996, a 43-year-old man named Thomas Hamilton walked into a primary school in this central Scotland town of 8,000 people and shot to death 16 kindergarten-age children and their teacher with four legally held handguns. In the weeks that followed, people in the town formed the Snowdrop campaign — named for the first flower of spring — to press for a ban on handguns. Within weeks, it had collected 750,000 signatures. By the next year, the ban had become law.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/lessons-for-the-us-many-countries-toughen-gun-laws-in-wake-of-mass-shootings/2012/12/18/27cccec8-4901-11e2-8af9-9b50cb4605a7_story.html
So who did this shooting? A clueless 20 year old who didn't even have the wherewithal to move out of the family home, and whom his closest teacher described as 'more likely to be a victim'? Or soneone with something to gain?
Tell them, "Nutz!,' and arm the schools.
Better yet, find the real perps.
"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." -
-- Winston Churchill
On December 16, 1944, the Germans launched their largest offensive of the war on the Western Front. The primary goals of the offensive were to capture the Belgian port of Antwerp and to drive a wedge between the British and American armies. This offensive is often referred to as the "Battle of the Bulge." It's failure was due largely to American resistance around St. Vith, on the northern shoulder of the Bulge, and by American forces holding Bastogne on the southern shoulder of the Bulge.
The town of Bastogne is strategically located at the center of the road network of the Ardennes. The Germans referred to it as a "road octopus" since the majority of roads in that region of the Ardennes pass through the town. The town's strategic location made it vitally important to the outcome of the offensive. The Allies realized its importance and General Eisenhower dispatched the 101st Airborne Division to hold the town at all costs. This victory resulted in the first full Army Division Presidential Distinguished Unit Citation. This interview focuses on the story surrounding the German's request for the American forces at Bastogne to surrender and the American General's response as witnessed by Lt. General Harry Kinnard, at the time of the siege of Bastogne, a Lt. Col. and Division G-3. These are some of his personal recollections.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We got into Bastogne late on the night of 18 December, 1944. We were not well equipped, having just gotten out of combat in Holland. We were particularly short of winter clothing and footwear. On the 21st of December we became completely surrounded by Germans and our field hospital was overrun by a German attack. We had put the hospital in what would normally have been a safe place, but no place is safe when you are completely surrounded. At this time, we were not able to receive air resupply because the weather was absolutely frightful. It was very, very cold and snowy. Visibility was often measured in yards. Our lack of winter gear was partially offset by the citizens of Bastogne who gave us blankets and white linens that we used for camouflage.
While we were still surrounded, on the morning of December 22, a German surrender party, consisting of two officers and two NCOs, and carrying a white flag, approached our perimeter in the area of our Glider Regiment, the 327th. The party was taken to a nearby platoon command post. While the enlisted men were detained the officers were blind folded and taken to the command post of the 327th where they presented their surrender ultimatum. The ultimatum in essence said the 101st's position was hopeless and that if we elected not to surrender a lot of bad things would happen.
The message was brought in to the Division Headquarters by Major Alvin Jones, the S-3, and Colonel Harper, the Regimental Commander. They brought the message to me, the G-3 and Paul Danahy, the G-2. My first reaction was that this was a German ruse, designed to get our men out of their fox holes. But be that as it might, we agreed that we needed to take the message up the line. We took it first to the acting Chief of Staff of the Division, Lt. Col. Ned Moore. With him, we took the message to the acting Division Commander General Tony McAuliffe. Moore told General McAuliffe that we had a German surrender ultimatum. The General's first reaction was that the Germans wanted to surrender to us. Col. Moore quickly disabused him of that notion and explained that the German's demanded our surrender. When McAuliffe heard that he laughed and said: "Us surrender? Aw, nuts!" the date was December 22nd, 1944
To the U.S.A. Commander of the encircled town of Bastogne.
The fortune of war is changing. This time the U.S.A. forces in and near Bastogne have been encircled by strong German armored units. More German armored units have crossed the river Our near Ortheuville, have taken Marche and reached St. Hubert by passing through Hompre-Sibret-Tillet. Libramont is in German hands.
There is only one possibility to save the encircled U.S.A. troops from total annihilation: that is the honorable surrender of the encircled town. In order to think it over a term of two hours will be granted beginning with the presentation of this note.
If this proposal should be rejected one German Artillery Corps and six heavy A. A. Battalions are ready to annihilate the U.S.A. troops in and near Bastogne. The order for firing will be given immediately after this two hours' term.
All the serious civilian losses caused by this artillery fire would not correspond with the well known American humanity.
The German Commander.
But then McAuliffe realized that some sort of reply was in order. He pondered for a few minutes and then told the staff, "Well I don't know what to tell them." He then asked the staff what they thought, and I spoke up, saying, "That first remark of yours would be hard to beat." McAuliffe said, "What do you mean?" I answered, "Sir, you said 'Nuts'." All members of the staff enthusiastically agreed, and McAuliffe decided to send that one word, "Nuts!" back to the Germans. McAuliffe then wrote down:
"To the German Commander, "Nuts!" The American Commander."
http://www.thedropzone.org/europe/bulge/kinnard.html
Last post removed by author. :dsunny:
[This was published in 1896]
When Jacob blessed Joseph's children, he created by
that act the Thirteenth Tribe, making Ephraim many
mighty nations and Manasseh a great people. The
term Ephraim is synonymous with Joseph ; that is, we
speak of them as one, from the fact that Ephraim inherited
the birthright, while Manasseh, the Thirteenth
Tribe, was destined to become a great people. If we
examine Revelations we shall find that at the time of
the sealing of the Twelve Tribes of the Children of
Israel Dan is cast out, and in the place of Dan is
Manasseh.
Thus you see that the blessing by Jacob was an
inspiration of Divine Providence, for there must be
twelve tribes, and if Dan was to be cast out, then there
must be a thirteenth tribe to make the twelve good.
Just the same as in the case of the twelve disciples.
Judas Iscariot was cast out, and Matthias, or the thirteenth
disciple, was appointed to fill his place. Having
made clear the relative position of the two lads, let us
compare the Scriptures with accepted history and see
how far the prophecies have been fulfilled.
First, they were to be a multitudinous people ; strong in power ;
speaking another tongue ; an island nation having large
colonies ; a monarchy, and a Christian people. This is
Ephraim.
Now, whenever we find Manasseh, we must find
them according to Scripture, " a great people," having
come out and separated themselves from the
house of Ephraim, bearing the same name and identity,
speaking the same language, bearing the same
cross, and proclaiming the same Christianity.
" The children that thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the
other," says Isaiah. What other? Why, the house of
Manasseh, or "the great people," for these, under
divine blessing, were all she could ever lose, and
although few in number at the time of separation,
could never be conquered.
Ephraim's, or England's peculiar characteristic, even
unto this day, is in pronouncing the letter H, consequently
the first war between Ephraim and Manasseh,
" the great people," resulted disastrously for Ephraim,
as it did in all her future battles with that nation,
which is known not only as Manasseh, but Gilead. The
Ephraimites sent a spy into the camp of Gilead, but he
was immediately detected, " for they say unto him, ' Say
now Shibboleth,' and he said 'Sibboleth,' for he could
not frame to pronounce it right."" Then they took
him and slew him at the passage of Jordan, and there
fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand."
Thus Ephraim, "the many mighty nations,"
has never been able to overcome Manasseh,
" the great people." Some few weeks ago, an Englishman, fresh
from London, came into my office, and during the course
of conversation said he had friends living in Art and Alsey
streets, meaning Hart and Halsey. Thus he spoke,
because he could not frame to pronounce the H.
The blessings that followed these two great nations
were : First, they should be a pushing people.
" His glory is like the firstlings of his bullock." (This is why
we call England John Bull.) " His horns like the horns
of the Unicorn, with them they shall push the people
to the ends of the earth," and they are " the thousands
of Manasseh, and the ten thousands of Ephraim." You
will notice that the horns of the Unicorn were given to
the two lads.
Now it is a singular fact that after the Pilgrims settled
down in Massachusetts, Oliver Cromwell knocked
off one of the horns of the British Unicorn, and since
that time it has been represented with only one horn.
A great many people, in reading the Scriptures, when
they see the house of Israel mentioned, think they are
the Jews, and also that Israel means the Church, yet
nowhere in the Bible is Israel mentioned as the Church,
but always as a nation.
Paul says, " When I am with
the Jews, I am as a Jew, and when I am with the
Greeks, I am as a Greek, but I am neither; I am an
Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin." How easily Peter
was recognized as a Galilean. "Thou art a Galilean,"
said the maid, " and thy speech betrayeth thee."
So you see the Israelites kept themselves separated
from the Jews, even in the days of Christ, and this passage
of Scripture will throw great light upon it, viz. :
" Now Jesus walked no more openly with the Jews, but
went away to a city called Ephraim, and dwelt with
His disciples." Having shown you the difference between
the Israelites and the Jews, let us see what difference
there is in the prophecies concerning them.
The house of Judah is composed of two tribes,
viz.: Judah and Levi, and they are the Jews of the
present day, having never lost their name nor their
identity, and who are to-day living under the Law of
Moses, and the curse of their own prayer. Jeremiah
says of them that they should always retain their
name and identity, under the Mosaic law, without
a government, and strangers tolerated in all foreign
countries.
How different the prophecies concerning Israel. Unknown
in name, a multitudinous people, strong in power,
speaking another tongue, many mighty nations, and
a Christian people. Seven hundred and twenty-five
years B.C. the house of Israel went into the Assyrian
captivity, from which they have never returned. Six
hundred and six years B.C. the house of Judah went
into the Babylonian captivity, and were held seventy
years, after which they were liberated by Cyrus and
became a dependency up to the year seventy A.D., when
Titus besieged Jerusalem. They were then overthrown
and scattered to the four winds of heaven, even unto
this day.
The tribe of Benjamin separated themselves from
the house of Israel and united with the house of
Judah, and we find the design of this union in First
Kings. Judah was to reject Christ, yet he had chosen
the city of Jerusalem, and this city was in Benjamin's
territory, and contained the temple as well as the
throne of David, which was to have an heir until Shiloh
came, and as Judah refused, Benjamin was selected,
as all of the disciples were Benjaminites, save Judas
Iscariot.
In the year 70, when Titus besieged Jerusalem, the
Christians made their escape, and ancient writers say
they were all of the tribe of Benjamin. The walls were
ordered to be battered down, after which the army
retired to rest, and during this time the Benjaminites
all made their escape, and when Titus called his commanding
general to an account he was speechless. In
this we find the prophecy of Jeremiah literally fulfilled,
when he says:
" Oh, ye children of Benjamin, gather
yourselves together and flee out of the midst of Jerusalem,
for evil appeareth out of the north," and in fulfillment
of this very prophecy the Benjaminites escaped...
--The Irish Prince and the Hebrew Prophet, 1896
If we examine some of the prophecies concerning
Manasseh we shall find them truly wonderful. God
had said to this thirteenth tribe of the children of
Israel that He would guard them as the eagle guardeth
her young, and so when they settled down to independence
they placed the eagle upon their banner with
thirteen stars. They filled it up with the stripes, for it
is written, "by His stripes are we healed."
The great seal of the United States is still more curious.
This was suggested by Sir John Bart, an Englishman,
to John Adams, American Minister to the Court
of St. James, and adopted by Congress in 1782. On
the obverse side we have an eagle, and in his beak a
scroll, with the motto, " E. Pluribus Unum," one out of
many, as Manasseh was taken. Over the head of the
eagle is a bank of clouds, and we have the prophecy,
"I will be a cloud round about you, in camp and out."
There is a parting in the cloud, and we see thirteen
stars, or the number of the tribe. In his right talon is
an olive branch, a symbol of peace, and in his left talon
a bundle of thirteen arrows. If we turn the seal over
and look at the reverse side, we find it still more wonderful,
for here we have the Egyptian pyramid. Over
the top of the pyramid is an all-seeing eye, with the
motto, " He prospers our beginning." Under the pyramid
is the motto, "A new era in the ages." Now,
when we come to think that Manasseh, the thirteenth
tribe, which is represented on our flag and on our
great seal, was born in Memphis, at the foot of the pyramids,
we cannot fail to see how wonderfully prophecy
and providence agree.
The prophecies concerning Israel were that they
should possess the gates of their enemies ; they should
reign over many nations, but no nation should reign
over them ; they should have the heathen for an inheritance
; they should be a Sabbath-keeping people ; they
should take their national oath in the name of the Lord ;
they should preach the gospel to every nation, kindred,
tongue, and people, and that they should finally join
hands with Judah to possess Palestine. There are but two
nations on earth to-day that meet all of these requirements,
viz., England and the United States.
England has never been conquered by a Gentile power. They
hold the gates of their enemies from Gibraltar to the
China Sea. Lord Wellington, with a small army, withstood nearly
the entire forces of the Continent. They prevailed
against Russia in the Crimean war; they opened the
ports of China, with her 450,000,000; while heathen
India, with her 250,000,000, comes under the British
flag; and with her fifty-six colonies, the Dominion of
Canada, the Feejee Islands, and her own islands, she
owns nearly one-quarter of the entire earth and controls
one-sixth of all the inhabitants.
And yet, mighty as England was and is, she found her armies too weak to conquer the half-clothed, half-fed Pilgrims and Puritans
that had entered the promised land, and had raised
their banner in the name of the Lord.
Again, England's coat of arms is nine lions and a
unicorn. The unicorn was added when the Norman
conquerors invaded England, which are supposed to be
the tribe of Benjamin. " For then will I turn the
people to a pure language, that they may worship God
with one consent."
There are six languages in theChristian world to-day that are powerful, viz., English,Russian, German, French, Spanish, and Italian ; but
transplant any of them, except the English language,
and they will die. Look at the vast sea of cosmopolitan
languages that have been transplanted to the United
States, and where are they now? They sleep the sleep
that knows no resurrection, for the children cannot
speak the mother tongue. In the English language we
have about one thousand Hebrew roots, and hence it is
written, "With stammering lips, and in another tongue,
will He speak to His people."
After the Israelites were carried into the Assyrian
captivity, they remained in Media until Christ came,
for you remember He said to His disciples, "Go not into
the ways of the Gentiles, nor into any of the cities of
the Samaritans enter ye not, but go rather to the lost
sheep of the house of Israel," which fulfills the prophecy,
" Yet doth He devise means that His banished be not
expelled from Him." From Media they went into
Pamphylia, Galatia, Cappadocia, Lydia, and Bithyania,
for we have the testimony of Josephus in the year 70
A.D., that the two tribes, viz., Judah and Levi, were
captured by Titus, but the ten tribes were beyond the
river Euphrates, an immense number of people. Here
they waited redemption from the Mosaic law. Christ's
mission on earth was to redeem Israel, for He says,
"I am not sent, but unto the lost sheep of the house of
Israel."
Under the Mosaic law Paul finds them, and tells
them of a crucified and risen Redeemer, and frees
them from the law. This is why we are keeping the
first day instead of the seventh. Again Paul tells them
to avoid foolish questions and genealogies, and endless
fables, and from that point of time they lose all trace
of their genealogy and become a distinct people. Thus
we see prophecy fulfilled to the letter of the law, viz. :
Unknown in name, speaking another tongue; in fact,
the little stone, cut out of the mountain without hands,
which became a great mountain, and filled the whole
earth.
--The Irish Prince and the Hebrew Prophet, 1896
Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? So why is there no healing for my people?
--Jer 8:22
Matthew 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
--2 Chron 7:34
Hear the right, O Lord, attend unto my cry, give ear unto my prayer, that goeth not out of feigned lips.
2 Let my sentence come forth from thy presence; let thine eyes behold the things that are equal.
3 Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited me in the night; thou hast tried me, and shalt find nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.
4 Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer.
5 Hold up my goings in thy paths, that my footsteps slip not.
6 I have called upon thee, for thou wilt hear me, O God: incline thine ear unto me, and hear my speech.
7 Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them.
8 Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,
9 From the wicked that oppress me, from my deadly enemies, who compass me about.
10 They are inclosed in their own fat: with their mouth they speak proudly.
11 They have now compassed us in our steps: they have set their eyes bowing down to the earth;
12 Like as a lion that is greedy of his prey, and as it were a young lion lurking in secret places.
13 Arise, O Lord, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:
14 From men which are thy hand, O Lord, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes.
15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
--Psa 17
In my opinion the little stone is Jesus and it will fill the whole earth as the children of Abraham, born of his SEED meaning Christ, will be as numerous as the sand of the sea and the stars of the sky.......but that was a good presentation of the doctrine of British Israelism. It has been around a long time and there may be some truth in it, but I believe the nation that will arise out of Abraham and shine like the stars of the heaven is the ecclesia of God, over which Jesus is Head over all things, the church, His body, the fulness of Hiom who fills all in all- born not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh but born of God- born form above, people of every tongue and nation.
Listen, Ethiopia [Cush]—land of fluttering sails
that lies at the headwaters of the Nile,
2 that sends ambassadors
in swift boats down the river.
Go, swift messengers!
Take a message to a tall, smooth-skinned people,
who are feared far and wide
for their conquests and destruction,
and whose land is divided by rivers.
3 All you people of the world,
everyone who lives on the earth—
when I raise my battle flag on the mountain, look!
When I blow the ram's horn, listen!
4 For the Lord has told me this:
"I will watch quietly from my dwelling place—
as quietly as the heat rises on a summer day,
or as the morning dew forms during the harvest."
5 Even before you begin your attack,
while your plans are ripening like grapes,
the Lord will cut off your new growth with pruning shears.
He will snip off and discard your spreading branches.
6 Your mighty army will be left dead in the fields
for the mountain vultures and wild animals.
The vultures will tear at the corpses all summer.
The wild animals will gnaw at the bones all winter.
7 At that time the Lord of Heaven's Armies will receive gifts
from this land divided by rivers,
from this tall, smooth-skinned people,
who are feared far and wide for their conquests and destruction.
They will bring the gifts to Jerusalem,where the Lord of Heaven's Armies dwells.
--Isa 18
Quote from: eaglesway on December 19, 2012, 12:05:01 AM
In my opinion the little stone is Jesus and it will fill the whole earth as the children of Abraham, born of his SEED meaning Christ, will be as numerous as the sand of the sea and the stars of the sky.......but that was a good presentation of the doctrine of British Israelism. It has been around a long time and there may be some truth in it, but I believe the nation that will arise out of Abraham and shine like the stars of the heaven is the ecclesia of God, over which Jesus is Head over all things, the church, His body, the fulness of Hiom who fills all in all- born not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh but born of God- born form above, people of every tongue and nation.
This doesn't contradict that--what you are calling 'British Israelism'--but is really about Ephraim and Manasseh and their fellows. As we have seen, the prophecy regarding Ephraim [for house of Israel] has been directly fulfilled by certain peoples and carried to every nation of the world by them, as they search the whole earth for those called and chosen from every tribe.
It's not just history, it's prophecy fulfilled, IMO.
"Now, whenever we find Manasseh, we must find
them according to Scripture, " a great people," having
come out and separated themselves from the
house of Ephraim, bearing the same name and identity,
speaking the same language, bearing the same
cross, and proclaiming the same Christianity."
I read everything and try to give the benefit of the doubt. Where is this in scripture?
Quote from: eaglesway on December 19, 2012, 05:20:04 AM
"Now, whenever we find Manasseh, we must find
them according to Scripture, " a great people," having
come out and separated themselves from the
house of Ephraim, bearing the same name and identity,
speaking the same language, bearing the same
cross, and proclaiming the same Christianity."
I read everything and try to give the benefit of the doubt. Where is this in scripture?
But his father refused. "I know, my son; I know," he replied. "Manasseh will also become a great people, but his younger brother will become even greater. And his descendants will become a multitude of nations."--Gen 48:19
Even though Ephraim is the youngest son, his grandfather, Jacob gives Ephraim the birthright blessing. Joseph tries to stop him, thinking he made a mistake, but Jacob makes it clear he knows what he is doing.
The younger son, Ephraim, becomes 'a multitude of nations.' Great Britain is a little island but the sun never sets on the British Empire.
The elder son Manasseh becomes 'a great people.'
So by definition, we see that Manasseh is a subset of Ephraim which is a multitude of nations, also known as the fulfillment of the Gentiles.
Yet the double portion of Joseph is given to Ephraim and Manasseh both. So both stand alone. We see that each tribe is given his portion by Joshua in the promised land, creating a double portion for Joseph. They are brothers, they stand together, and they stand alone, each with his own portion with Manasseh becoming 'a great people' in his own right.
Thus, Manasseh is called 'a great people,' separated from the house of Ephraim through the double portion--they get their own land grant in the promised land--having the same name and identity which is the tribe of Joseph, speaking the same language because they are brothers raised together in Egypt, bearing the same cross and proclaiming the same Christianity--through you all the nations of the world shall be blessed--that is the Abrahamic Covenant passed on by Jacob through Joseph.
From a UR point of view, these double portioned sons of Joseph are half Hebrew[father], half Gentile [mother], thereby in their very bodies spanning the bridge between Gentile and Hebrew.
Although Ephraim is the name given to the house of Israel because Ephraim is their prince/leader, of which the tribe of Manasseh is a part, Manasseh stands alone with his own portion. Remember, a multitude of nations literally translates into 'the fulness of the Gentiles, of which Manasseh is part.
Also remember, Jacob split the birthright. He gave the scepter to Judah and everything else to Joseph in double portion through his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.
Each stands alone and they stand together.
From a Christian point of view, I consider Genesis 48:19 one of the most important prophetic verses in the Bible because right there we see the identity of the great Christian countries to come--Ephraim and Manasseh--and their companions--the ten tribes of the house of Israel.
Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10395.msg146508#msg146508 date=1355868301]
Quotebut I believe the nation that will arise out of Abraham and shine like the stars of the heaven is the ecclesia of God, over which Jesus is Head over all things, the church, His body, the fulness of Hiom who fills all in all- born not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh but born of God- born form above, people of every tongue and nation.
Classic Replacement Theology.........all the promises God gave to Israel via the three patriarchs swept into an historical perspective because.......... ?
10 Now Israel's eyes were failing because of old age, and he could hardly see. So Joseph brought his sons close to him, and his father kissed them and embraced them.
11 Israel said to Joseph, "I never expected to see your face again, and now God has allowed me to see your children too."
12 Then Joseph removed them from Israel's knees and bowed down with his face to the ground. 13 And Joseph took both of them, Ephraim on his right toward Israel's left hand and Manasseh on his left toward Israel's right hand, and brought them close to him. 14 But Israel reached out his right hand and put it on Ephraim's head, though he was the younger, and crossing his arms, he put his left hand on Manasseh's head, even though Manasseh was the firstborn.
15 Then he blessed Joseph and said,
"May the God before whom my fathers
Abraham and Isaac walked faithfully,
the God who has been my shepherd
all my life to this day,
16 the Angel who has delivered me from all harm
—may he bless these boys.
May they be called by my name
and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac,
and may they increase greatly
on the earth."
17 When Joseph saw his father placing his right hand on Ephraim's head he was displeased; so he took hold of his father's hand to move it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. 18 Joseph said to him, "No, my father, this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head."
19 But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He too will become a people, and he too will become great. Nevertheless, his younger brother will be greater than he, and his descendants will become a group of nations." 20 He blessed them that day and said,
In your name will Israel pronounce this blessing:
'May God make you like Ephraim and Manasseh.'"
So he put Ephraim ahead of Manasseh.
21 Then Israel said to Joseph, "I am about to die, but God will be with you and take you back to the land of your fathers. 22 And to you I give one more ridge of land than to your brothers, the ridge I took from the Amorites with my sword and my bow."
--Gen 48
This is the passing on of the birthright blessings given to Abraham by God, passed through Isaac to Jacob, and then in double portion to Joseph through Ephraim and Manasseh.
Whether you see this as spiritual or physical or both, it has to be dealt with because it is still in effect to this day--blessing upon blessing upon blessing upon the head of Joseph, the oldest son of the most beautiful and beloved wife of Jacob, and through him to Ephraim and Manasseh.
And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
--Gen 49
22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
--Gen 49
And this relates to UR how?
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 19, 2012, 07:26:02 PM
And this relates to UR how?
Everyone needs to be saved? and fast.
I thought we had all the time in the world. Ultimately.
Isn't it the ET'ers that insist once a person dies there is no more hope?
If that were true, I could see going crazy trying to "get everyone saved"
I don't think it is God's plan to get everybody saved before they physically die.
When Jesus healed the man at the pool of Bethesda, he essentially ignored the rest of the several
others that were there at the time.
But, this could be like that time I was wrong on Nov 17th 2004. :laugh:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 19, 2012, 07:53:18 PM
I thought we had all the time in the world. Ultimately.
Isn't it the ET'ers that insist once a person dies there is no more hope?
If that were true, I could see going crazy trying to "get everyone saved"
I don't think it is God's plan to get everybody saved before they physically die.
When Jesus healed the man at the pool of Bethesda, he essentially ignored the rest of the several
others that were there at the time.
But, this could be like that time I was wrong on Nov 17th 2004. :laugh:
:dsunny: :dsunny:
haven't you figured out..that Adam was a son of God and that Jesus also..and a double Blessing goes
to humanity..following this exercize in good and evil? Have you forgotten all the wonderful things we are promised
and the beautiful eternal heavenly inheritance that is to be foe ALL mankind.
look at Isreal and it's divisons of land...not all tribes were called to be close to God and minister to Him..
it is the same for the whole world of humanity now. He is the God to those far off and near.
mankind has characteristics and blessings throughout the earth that Isreal and the disciples have..
all mankind is the 12 tribes of Isreal and shall all 12 in the New Jerusalem.
there is the Peter principle'would be brave' cowards..doubting Thomas'es..Judas preist's...Isasschar
traits such as 'ass's' that He rides [men who bear the name of Jesus and serve for tribute]
All mankind that ever lived or died are God's sons and daughter's undergoing this exercize in
good/evil..and ALL shall receive eternal life free from all evil.
UNIVERSAL SALVATION IS THE TIME WE ARE IN....CHRIST ATONED FOR ALL MANKIND
AND WILL COME SHORTLY TO SAVE US ALL FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH[corruption]
the Sign of the Son of Man....the budding of the FIG TREE[remember Him cursing the tree that did not
bear fruit?] At the time of His return you shall see the budding of the fig tree..it shall put out leaves
and bear fruit. Nakedness was covered with a fig leaf..the nakedness of sin was covered by it.......
Christ has covered and blotted out sin and nakedness of all mankind. His blood is the leaves and fruit
of the fig tree. IT COVERS ALL SIN OF MANKIND AND BLOTS IT OUT.
the bramble that become ruler[crown of thorns that peirced His head] shall be burnt
men are trees of righteousness planted in the garden of God. Appletree speaks of sonship of God
Olivetree=sons of oil...christ vine..=grapes/wine cup of covenant..............
the BRANCHES OF THE FIG TREE WAS USED ON ALTAR OF GOD..
He told you...that stone not cut out by human hands...would bring down babylon. Become a mountain
.and fill the entire earth..look....at ALL the population of this earth and know they are blameless and white before Him
and He shall deliver them all from this body of death. He is coming to reap His wheatfield/mankind
He bought the field/redeemed and owns it...He is the rightful owner..He does not reap where He does
not sow[as accused] God sowed Adam in this earth/and God sowed Jesus Christ in this earth.......
and all mankind is His Rightful Possesion...It does not matter that the Prince of this earth wants
to hold on to them..HE SHALL DELIVER
Do I BRING TO BIRTH AND NOT DELIVER?
The budding of the fig tree... Jesus cursing the fig tree... reminds me of several years ago when a wide eyed girl about 6 years old told me with awe in her voice that"cursing the fig tree" was the only time that Jesus ever sinned. :laughing7: :Chinscratch:
lol! I hope you told her He didn't sin...that might mess her up!!
I had to! How many sins would it take committed by Jesus to negate all the plan of salvation and reconciliation? :laughing7: :Peace2:
I read a lot of the stuff on "Prophecy" and wonder what it has to do with The Book of Revelations? Perhaps a section for current event discussions could be started? I know I am the lemon and sour grapes here, and I know prophecy means prediction, but it seems that more religious and man thinking goes into the predictions when posted than a prophetic word. I say this with my understanding that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is just that, the manifesting-unveling of Jesus Christ in the chosen/elect. I believe the revealing of the manifested sons of God is a spiritual unfolding and a work being done in those who have an ear to hear, what the Spirit is saying, rather than puzzling current events together with interpretations we glean from words related to how men understand the language compared to events. I mean no offence, but what I read is no more different than news analysts examining and speculating on the middle east troubles. And I hope no offence is taken.
I have been given to understand the 7 churches to be the chosen(one body), the good and the bad spoken of, is in part, a word revealed to each one who hears, revealing our weaknesses and strengths.
It reveals to those who are hearing, the incompleteness in their walk. We all know the word church is "ekklesia" the calling out, and there is but one body I Cor. 12:19,20. and Eph 4:4. Jesus said, "... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63.
I believe Rev 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day".......
this is the most important matter when we study The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Of course this is just an offering and certainly open for for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
:HeartThrob: :dsunny: I mean no offence to anyone. I await the outcome. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Micah, you keep saying, [my paraphrase] Why are you people reading the newspaper? Is this a current events thread?
But, my point is, When Bible prophecy starts looking like the news, it is a sign of the times.
I'm not trying to prophecy anything. I'm just reading the news--in Daniel, Ezekiel, Hosea, Micah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Revelation--2 to 3 thousand years before it happens, and finding [for myself] that it is converging with what is happening today.
What's amazing to me is that things are not playing out the way I would predict, necessarily, but they are playing out, all the same, in congruity with the scripture. Certain things have to happen in a certain way before Jesus returns. I don't know about you, but when I see a foreign army standing in Jerusalem, I will start counting. You or others might have some other criteria they are watching for. The people who should have recognized Jesus the first time missed him. Do we want to be caught off guard the way they were?
You hypocrites! You can forecast the weather by judging the appearance of earth and sky. But for some reason you don't know how to judge the time in which you're living.
--Luke 12:56
" Do we want to be caught off guard the way they were?"
No, and that is exactly why I done work a denominational religious puzzle. :dsunny:
Molly, I think you are right about certain things must take place before the Lord returns, but armies have gathered around Jerusalem periodically for thousands of years, and it is only one of many signs. I think we are caught off guard when we do not realize that Jesus will appear first in His holy temple, us- and that the greatest sign of the end times is the latter rain, the restoration and revelation(unveiling)of the Body of Christ. This is what the parable of the wise and foolish virgins was about(imo). All the virgins were awakened by a call to the wedding feast, "The Bridegroom comes!" Why does He come? To be united with His bride. Who is she? The ecclesia of God, a church without spot wrinkle or blemish. Why wedded? So that their united voice can cry out, "COME ALL YOU WHO ARE THIRSTY, DRiNK FREELY OF THE WATER OF LIFE!" The Spirit and the Bride say COME!, so let all who are thirsty come.
In every generation (wether the last or not) we must keep our vessels full of oil and listen for the cry that will awaken us in the night, "The Bridegroom Comes!" and run to that place of refuge before the door slams shut.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
(Psa 91:1-9)
In the days of Noah, they did not understand UNTIL THE DOOR SLAMMED SHUT.
There five wise virgins and five foolish. They were all virgins. The foolish could not enter in because THE DOOR SLAMMED SHUT.
Everyone was invited to the wedding feast(union of the Lamb and the Bride), many ignored the INVITATION. SO THE FATHER OF THE GROOM INVITED THE LOWLY UNEXPECTED GUESTS and Jesus said, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see the harlots and the tax collectors celebrating as children of the kingdom and you yourselves CAST OUT.
"AWAKE O SLEEPER AND ARISE FROM THE DEAD AND THE LIGHT OF CHRIST WILL SHINE UPON YOU".
In the latter days the mountain of the house of the Lord will be exalted above all the other mountains.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN." This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.
(Heb 12:22-29)
Who is coming down from heaven like a Bride adorned for her Groom? The heavenly Jerusalem. In what is she clothed? The righteous acts of the saints!
Who shall know there God and do exploits? Those who are strengthened with might by His Spirit in their inner man and clothed with the full armor of God. Not by Might, nor by Power but by my Spirit says the Lord.
We are in the valley of dry bones today. Cry out to the wind. Come Holy SPirit, bring on th elatter rain.
The good farmer wait patiently for the early and the latter rains. First shoot, then the stalk, then the ear. The ear comes last, Let the one who has ears to hear hear :o)
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 20, 2012, 06:04:45 AM
" Do we want to be caught off guard the way they were?"
No, and that is exactly why I done work a denominational religious puzzle. :dsunny:
Why does it have to be denominational? Why can't we just read it for ourselves?
And, it's only a puzzle as long as it is sealed. It is only sealed until the appointed time.
Once it is unsealed, it should presumably be clear as day.
Quote from: eagleswayI think we are caught off guard when we do not realize that Jesus will appear first in His holy temple, us- and that the greatest sign of the end times is the latter rain, the restoration and revelation(unveiling)of the Body of Christ.
I think we all have our experiences with this in our relationship with Christ. But, it's only an earnest now, and we all long for much more than we have.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. --Rom 8:23
I am not so much concerned with that, myself, as I have pretty much come to accept my limitations, and enjoy everything that I am given of Christ now.
But, do you think that when this happens, the full adoption that is, it will be 'suddenly' as Paul describes? Or, do you think, at the end of the age, we will start experiencing a greater and greater indwelling of the Spirit, with signs following?
He says new wine cannot go in old wineskins. Aren't these bodies old wineskins, and therefore, a limiting factor?
I do understand about Jerusalem and historical armies, and I appreciate it is only one of many signs. The fact that I am waiting for it, means that I think many of those signs have already been fulfilled.
We, the chosen, the elect are/is Jerusalem. BDB Definition: Jerusalem = "teaching of peace" Strong's founded peaceful; Peace BDB Definition: 1) completeness, soundness, welfare, peace. Strong's safe, In Revelation... Peace (to join); peace, prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.
there is one spirit and one body..spirit of Love to all humankind in this body undergoing this death.......
we could start by declaring to them their sins are blotted out in Christ through GOD'S GREAT LOVE
FOR HUMANITY...we can stress ONENESSS[we are the elect/you are Not] does not promote oneness..
then COME..take Life's waters free will be spoken in truth.
Look what Babylon does......Habakuk 2;15 Woe to him that gives drink to his neighbors,pouring it
from the wineskin til they are drunk...so that he can gaze on their naked bodies...[DOCTRINES THAT SAY YOUR
SINS ARE NOT COVERED OF CHRIST,YET].
religious doctrines of 'my sin is blotted out..I am clothed in Christ you are not" is this very thing.
same as 'my sins are forgiven,I receive grace,,you don't..get aw2ay"
all humanity [spiritually dead/physically dead.spiritualy alive or physical alive] is HIS...GIVE HIM
ALL THE FRUIT....tear down this temple and I will raise it on the third day...this is ALL the FRuit....
WHEN HE TAKES AWAY ALL THEIR SIN.....this is the cornerstone..........then....... become reconciled
unto Him who LOVES YOU...........
ALL OF THIS IS BY THE CROSS..NOT BY MAN BEING WISE ENOUGH TO GRASP WHAT GOD HAS DONE
REGARDLESS OF MAN'S DOUBT..REFUSAL TO BELIEVE IT,DOCTRINES AND TRADITIONS THAT SPEAK
CONTRARY TO IT.OR HIS BLINDNESS,DEAFNESS,DEMONIC POSSESSION.
SOME ARE 'FAR OFF' DOES THAT MEAN HE IS NOT A GOD FAR OFF? HE WHO EXALTS HIMSELF WILL
BE HUMBLED HE WHO HUMBLES HIMSELF WILL BE EXALTED.
NOW....PROCLAIMING THIS..IS A GLORY..THOSE THAT COME WHILE ON THIS EARTH CAN BE SUPPORTED
AND NURTURED IN THE BODY OF BELIEVERS..AND GROW SPIRITUALLY IN THIS TRUTH........
BUT NOTHING CAN CHANGE THE FOUNDATION STONE OF CHRIST OR SEPERATE THEM FROM
THE LOVE OF GOD THAT WAS SHOWN IN CHRIST[CROSS] NO DEMONIC POSSESSION,NO ANGELS
NO DEATH,NO POWER,NO HEIGHT NOR DEPTH
IF GOD IS FOR US[ALL MANKIND SAVED] WHO CAN BE AGAINST US.....
WIDEN OUT YOUR HEART.....'I SPEAK AS TO MY CHILDREN-OPEN WIDE YOUR HEARTS ALSO'
ENLARGE THE PLACE OF YOUR TENT,STRETCH YOUR TENT CURTAINS WIDE,DO NOT HOLD BACK
LENGTHEN YOUR CORDS[OF AFFECTION] STRENGTHEN YOUR STAKES,SPREAD OUT TO RIGHT
AND THE LEFT. YOUR LOVE MUST COVER THE WHOLE WORLD AND ALL MANKIND...'IF' YE SHALL
HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST AND OF THE LORD GOD. FOR MY THOUGHTS ARE HIGHER THAN
YOUR THOUGHTS
1 JOHN 3;14 WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE BECAUSE WE LOVE
OUR BROTHERS[BROTHERHOOD OF ALL MANKIND] ANYONE WHO DOES NOT LOVE REMAINS
IN DEATH
THIS IS HIS COMMAND..TO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST AND TO
LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS HE COMMANDED US
Quote from: SheilaIF GOD IS FOR US[ALL MANKIND SAVED] WHO CAN BE AGAINST US.....
An atheist said this to me once. He was trying to get my goat.
Much to his surprise, I said, Yes, you're right!
But, it didn't help, of course, because he didn't believe it.
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 20, 2012, 03:02:38 AM
I read a lot of the stuff on "Prophecy" and wonder what it has to do with The Book of Revelations? Perhaps a section for current event discussions could be started? I know I am the lemon and sour grapes here, and I know prophecy means prediction, but it seems that more religious and man thinking goes into the predictions when posted than a prophetic word. I say this with my understanding that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is just that, the manifesting-unveling of Jesus Christ in the chosen/elect. I believe the revealing of the manifested sons of God is a spiritual unfolding and a work being done in those who have an ear to hear, what the Spirit is saying, rather than puzzling current events together with interpretations we glean from words related to how men understand the language compared to events. I mean no offence, but what I read is no more different than news analysts examining and speculating on the middle east troubles. And I hope no offence is taken.
I have been given to understand the 7 churches to be the chosen(one body), the good and the bad spoken of, is in part, a word revealed to each one who hears, revealing our weaknesses and strengths.
It reveals to those who are hearing, the incompleteness in their walk. We all know the word church is "ekklesia" the calling out, and there is but one body I Cor. 12:19,20. and Eph 4:4. Jesus said, "... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63.
I believe Rev 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day".......
this is the most important matter when we study The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Of course this is just an offering and certainly open for for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
:HeartThrob: :dsunny: I mean no offence to anyone. I await the outcome. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Every thing is a revelation of Jesus Christ.
If you look for Jesus your future is more secure.
If you find Jesus, well you find yourself
giggling.
Adding news paper and internet articles
to the book of revelations, well it makes me giggle.
Not meaning to be contentious but :o),
Prophesy does not mean "prediction". It means "bubbling over" as in, overflow from the heart of God. Some prophesy predicts things but most prophesy is about unveiling the heart and mind of God, the I AM- and using that as a mirror to unveil to us who we are- the good and the ill.... so that we can be transformed into His image.
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
(1Co 14:23-26)
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
(Heb 4:12-14)
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
(Rev 19:10)
Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
(2Co 3:15-18)
IMO, The apocalypse of John is the unveiling of the heart and mind of God to His people (anyone who has ears to hear what the spirit is saying) in every generation and yeah, I think it predicts a few things, but most it reveals spiritual realities that transcend time.
If we were able to enter those spiritual realities(seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus), if we hungered for the truths hidden within them- we would find ourselves in the 'secret place of the most high'- informed and prepared for any eventuality and directed in each moment how best to serve the Lord and dispossess the enemy (break down the gates of Sheol) Today. :o)
G602
ἀποκάλυψις
apokalupsis
ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
From G601; disclosure: - appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy--Rev 19:10
"prophecy"
G4394
προφητεία
prophēteia
prof-ay-ti'-ah
From G4396 ("prophecy"); prediction (scriptural or other): - prophecy, prophesying.
Prophecy does mean prediction.
When Daniel is given the prophecy of the Antichrist by Gabriel, he is sick for days.
27 Then I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for several days. Afterward I got up and performed my duties for the king, but I was greatly troubled by the vision and could not understand it.
--Dan 8
I think you're both right :gimmefive:
In the things I've looked at, it seems both meanings can be attached to prophecy; foretelling (a. below - telling what the future will be); and forth-telling (b. below - proclaiming truth or news).
a. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.
b. An inspired utterance...viewed as a revelation of divine will.
"The specific meaning of prophecy as used in Old Testament times, is much more limited in nature...it actually meant that the LORD God was speaking through certain men prophets, and giving them special words to deliver that would "fore-tell" things that were going to happen in the future. It is these supernatural predictions that both strongly prove that the Bible is the Word of God, and also provide the framework for the things to come that Christians must watch for." - Kathy McFarland
"Prophecy [often] in the New Testament church carries no prediction with it whatsoever, for "he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort" (I Corinthians 14:3). Notice that there is no mention of the word prediction here. The word prophecy means to bubble up, to flow forth, or to cause to drop like rain." David Boshart
:2c:
I wonder if that means that Christians are not to make new predictive prophesy because all prophesy that we are to know was already given to us through the ancient prophets of the Old Testament.
Just about all prophetic predictions in the New Testament, including the book of Revelation, are based on Old Testament prophesy. Even Jesus liberally sprinkles his prophesy about the end of the age with Old Testament references and specifically references Daniel.
Interesting.
If you look at all the scriptures on prophecy a meaning emerges that includes a lot more than just prediction. The whole of scripture is prophesy according to Peter, and I agree with Jabcat- both are correct and neither is complete without the other.
My point is that, the testimony of Jesus is much more than a prediction- it is the revelation of the heart, the mind, the divine nature and the plan, of God. Predictions will not prepare us unless we have also entered the spiritual truths and realities and received the exhortation, edification and consolation of the word.
If you look sometime in Vines dictionary at prophecy and prophet, the pro means forth telling as well as fore telling and has to do with receiving oracles of God. Divinely inspired speech is prophecy whether is predicts something or not. Strong's NT Greek definition is very limited- not wrong, just a very limited view on a very big word.
Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),(2Ti 3:16)
So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
(2Pe 1:19-21)
Strong's OT Hebrew
naam: to utter a prophecy, speak as a prophet
Original Word: נָאַם
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: naam
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-am')
Short Definition: declare
NASEC
Word Origin
denominative verb from neum
Definition
to utter a prophecy, speak as a prophet
NASB Word Usage
declare (1).
Brown Driver Briggs lexicon
Qal Imperfect3masculine plural וַיִּנְאֲמוּ נְאֻם Jeremiah 23:31 and they uttered (in the prophetic manner), it as an utterance (of ׳י); they used the prophetic formula (compare ׳אֹמְרִים נְאֻם י Ezekiel 13:6,7).
Quote from: Molly on December 21, 2012, 08:48:25 AM
I wonder if that means that Christians are not to make predictive prophesy because all prophesy that we are to know was already given to us through the ancient prophets of the Old Testament.
Just about all prophetic predictions in the New Testament, including the book of Revelation, are based on Old Testament prophesy. Even Jesus liberally sprinkles his prophesy about the end of the age with Old Testament references and specifically references Daniel.
Interesting.
I think predictive prophecy is still a part of the New Testament experience. I don't think it is like Daniel Ezekiel and John tho (scripture level)
And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
(Act 11:27-30)
Maybe you're right John. But I had already typed this, so I'll go ahead and post it. Because I'm not sure anyway, it's just a thought;
I'll only say this. Maybe it's my own hard heart and lack of vision, but about ANY outright predictions I've personally heard or read, touted as "coming from the Lord", I don't know for sure that I've ever seen ONE of them come to pass. :dunno2: Maybe it's just me. Or, again, as you both say; maybe [predictive] prophecy has already been given us in Holy Writ, and prophecy today is more of the edifying nature, Jesus Christ revealing Himself in our midst. I'm just not sure, but it's worth thinking and praying about.
OTOH, I do believe God leads us, directs us with that "still small voice" - even gives certain people wisdom that we need to pay attention to, consider how what they're saying lines up with the scriptures, seek the Lord for His guidance on it, etc.
Such as some are giving information right now about where America is heading. I tend to believe some of them. However, it's not because they say "without a doubt God told me this and you better listen to it". It's more because a few are willing to have the attitude of "I believe God is showing", or "if I'm understanding God's leading", etc... Also, again, what's the "still small voice saying"? Are we just "swallowing" whatever comes along, or going to the Lord for discernment and confirmation about what's being said, etc.? Much to consider..
Also, by "New Testament Experience", that could mean "it's written" already (the scrip you posted, as well as whatever part of Revelation is predictive (and yet future?)...OR, still things being given today that are definitely predictive, i.e., FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD. That may be the case, but I'm personally cautious, while trying to not be OVERLY critical..again, I've seen enough things offered as FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD that didn't APPEAR to come true, I'm careful.. Just today thought of the scrip, "test all things, hold to that which is good". Can be hard to discern. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2012, 08:58:17 AM
Maybe you're right John. But I had already typed this, so I'll go ahead and post it. Because I'm not sure anyway, it's just a thought;
I'll only say this. Maybe it's my own hard heart and lack of vision, but about ANY outright predictions I've personally heard or read, touted as "coming from the Lord", I don't know for sure that I've ever seen ONE of them come to pass. :dunno2: Maybe it's just me. Or, again, as you both say; maybe [predictive] prophecy has already been given us in Holy Writ, and prophecy today is more of the edifying nature, Jesus Christ revealing Himself in our midst. I'm just not sure, but it's worth thinking and praying about.
Well, actually James, I agree with you. I am saying it "could be technically" a part of the NT experience, but like you, I can't remember any of the predictive prophecies I have heard coming true- I see it as a subject that definitely should be handled with care because there are so many "prophets" running around that are really just soothsayers.
That is why I focus on the "heart and mind of God", "oracles" aspect of prophesy- it grounds us so that we can walk in the Spirit and the Word and not get carried away by "predictions" or "interpretations of predictions". In 33 years of following Christ I have seen so many run off the "reservation" because they were sure God had showed them when and where this or that or the other was going to happen.
I mean to me, it looks like we are getting close but, I exhort believers that knowing the times should mainly spur them into seeking His face and learning to walk in the Spirit and in His nature and in the Logos.
haha, I was in process of editing my last post that go right along with what you're saying... :thumbsup:
Don't usually post in prophecy but read. And usually don't post for the same reason as EW and Jab.
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2012, 08:58:17 AM
Maybe you're right John. But I had already typed this, so I'll go ahead and post it. Because I'm not sure anyway, it's just a thought;
I'll only say this. Maybe it's my own hard heart and lack of vision, but about ANY outright predictions I've personally heard or read, touted as "coming from the Lord", I don't know for sure that I've ever seen ONE of them come to pass. :dunno2: Maybe it's just me. Or, again, as you both say; maybe [predictive] prophecy has already been given us in Holy Writ, and prophecy today is more of the edifying nature, Jesus Christ revealing Himself in our midst. I'm just not sure, but it's worth thinking and praying about.
:dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 21, 2012, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2012, 08:58:17 AM
Maybe you're right John. But I had already typed this, so I'll go ahead and post it. Because I'm not sure anyway, it's just a thought;
I'll only say this. Maybe it's my own hard heart and lack of vision, but about ANY outright predictions I've personally heard or read, touted as "coming from the Lord", I don't know for sure that I've ever seen ONE of them come to pass. :dunno2: Maybe it's just me. Or, again, as you both say; maybe [predictive] prophecy has already been given us in Holy Writ, and prophecy today is more of the edifying nature, Jesus Christ revealing Himself in our midst. I'm just not sure, but it's worth thinking and praying about.
Well, actually James, I agree with you. I am saying it "could be technically" a part of the NT experience, but like you, I can't remember any of the predictive prophecies I have heard coming true- I see it as a subject that definitely should be handled with care because there are so many "prophets" running around that are really just soothsayers.
That is why I focus on the "heart and mind of God", "oracles" aspect of prophesy- it grounds us so that we can walk in the Spirit and the Word and not get carried away by "predictions" or "interpretations of predictions". In 33 years of following Christ I have seen so many run off the "reservation" because they were sure God had showed them when and where this or that or the other was going to happen.
I mean to me, it looks like we are getting close but, I exhort believers that knowing the times should mainly spur them into seeking His face and learning to walk in the Spirit and in His nature and in the Logos.
:dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 21, 2012, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2012, 08:58:17 AM
Maybe you're right John. But I had already typed this, so I'll go ahead and post it. Because I'm not sure anyway, it's just a thought;
I'll only say this. Maybe it's my own hard heart and lack of vision, but about ANY outright predictions I've personally heard or read, touted as "coming from the Lord", I don't know for sure that I've ever seen ONE of them come to pass. :dunno2: Maybe it's just me. Or, again, as you both say; maybe [predictive] prophecy has already been given us in Holy Writ, and prophecy today is more of the edifying nature, Jesus Christ revealing Himself in our midst. I'm just not sure, but it's worth thinking and praying about.
Well, actually James, I agree with you. I am saying it "could be technically" a part of the NT experience, but like you, I can't remember any of the predictive prophecies I have heard coming true- I see it as a subject that definitely should be handled with care because there are so many "prophets" running around that are really just soothsayers.
That is why I focus on the "heart and mind of God", "oracles" aspect of prophesy- it grounds us so that we can walk in the Spirit and the Word and not get carried away by "predictions" or "interpretations of predictions". In 33 years of following Christ I have seen so many run off the "reservation" because they were sure God had showed them when and where this or that or the other was going to happen.
I mean to me, it looks like we are getting close but, I exhort believers that knowing the times should mainly spur them into seeking His face and learning to walk in the Spirit and in His nature and in the Logos.
And this comes to mind:
"
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord , if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him".
It has always been interesting to me that organizations among Christendom proclaiming themselves to be the "one true religion" in light of a plethora of their failed prophetic declarations, all believe this does not apply to them. It is just stunningly amazing what people think they can get away with after they've declared themselves the "one true church". It always follows that so much of clear Biblical text quickly becomes fulfilled prophecy, or that the light is now shining brighter, but no way were their failed predictions a scriptural problem.
This is just my opinion, but it would seem, Hal Lindsay kick started or re-kick started the prophecy phenomenon, with his book "late great planet earth." I am not against prophecy, the desire to hear a prophetic word is within all believers. In my opinion, prophecy is a gift with great weight and importance, it is not something gleaned by piecing together current events with the Bible. We see what's happening in the world and we read what happened in the Bible, but comparing the two, in my opinion, is not prophecy, but more closely to prediction,guessing, hoping.
Hos 1:1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea
Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah
Eze 1:3 The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest
Jon 1:1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah
My point is when the word of the LORD is given, the believer will know it and know it. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on December 21, 2012, 06:01:18 PM
NRA press conference at 1100 am
www.nra.org
This post will self destruct.
Ya Ya :laughing7: tooooo funny :dsunny:
not to mention that Hal Lindseys book "Late great planet earth was just plain wrong on numerous predictions. The Bible tell us that if a prophet is wrong even one time, they are not a prophet of God.
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 21, 2012, 06:31:08 PM
not to mention that Hal Lindseys book "Late great planet earth was just plain wrong on numerous predictions. The Bible tell us that if a prophet is wrong even one time, they are not a prophet of God.
Maybe no God Prophet.
He certainly was every other PROFIT.
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 21, 2012, 06:31:08 PM
not to mention that Hal Lindseys book "Late great planet earth was just plain wrong on numerous predictions. The Bible tell us that if a prophet is wrong even one time, they are not a prophet of God.
I didn't buy the book. I figured as long as I had the Bible correctly translated from the oldest codices, why would I need another book; therefore I've never read it either.
Out of curiosity, what were a few of his notable failed predictions? Something along the lines of
resurrected Roman empires I presume?
The most notable was 40 years=generation, nation of Israel established 1948, therefore, the generation that saw the birth of the nation of Israel would see the return of Christ before 1988. Pretty sure that didn't happen.When I read the book 40 years ago I almost dropped out of college to "get out and save the lost from eternal hellfire and/or tribulation." I didn't, by the grace of God. New Christian= easily influenced by religious authority figures. A little bit of Bible knowledge makes scripture twisters sound like they are being spoken to directly by God.
Proverbs 30;33 for as churning the milk produces butter...and TWISTING THE NOSE PRODUCES BLOOD
so stirring up anger produces strife.
the 'nose' is the discernment of spirits[odour of Christ/odour of death] the 'twisting" of discernment...
will bring forth blood[loss of life] instead of life redeemed.
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 21, 2012, 07:27:37 PM
The most notable was 40 years=generation, nation of Israel established 1948, therefore, the generation that saw the birth of the nation of Israel would see the return of Christ before 1988. Pretty sure that didn't happen.When I read the book 40 years ago I almost dropped out of college to "get out and save the lost from eternal hellfire and/or tribulation." I didn't, by the grace of God. New Christian= easily influenced by religious authority figures. A little bit of Bible knowledge makes scripture twisters sound like they are being spoken to directly by God.
I've seen that before as well, about the "generation" thingy, by others as well. There's much more in that scripture that clues the reader into when they should see other congruent events as well, then they can peg the "generation" with some reasonable degree of accuracy, but it is not possible to get it right when the remainder of the text is ignored.
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2012, 08:58:17 AM
Maybe you're right John. But I had already typed this, so I'll go ahead and post it. Because I'm not sure anyway, it's just a thought;
I'll only say this. Maybe it's my own hard heart and lack of vision, but about ANY outright predictions I've personally heard or read, touted as "coming from the Lord", I don't know for sure that I've ever seen ONE of them come to pass. :dunno2: Maybe it's just me. Or, again, as you both say; maybe [predictive] prophecy has already been given us in Holy Writ, and prophecy today is more of the edifying nature, Jesus Christ revealing Himself in our midst. I'm just not sure, but it's worth thinking and praying about.
I think there are different types of prophecy.
Prophecy which is more like a fatefull event, which must come to pass as spoken. Many of the old testament prophets operate under this authority. One prophet said to a man smite me, but the man refused to smite him, so the prophet told him because you refused to smite me you must die and afterwards a bear and lion appeared and mauled him.
Today however grace often overcomes judgment, so the wicked do not perish as spoken, because intercessors stand in the gap and pray for the living and the dead.
Then there is prophecy which is confused and mingled with prayer e.g I declare thy sins be forgiven.
A lot of the modern day prophets are counters.
They count jubilees, or weeks, or whatever.
They have different counting schemes, like the billboard guy, for arriving at their conclusion for a date of Christ's return.
But, I don't think this can be done by counting--the reason being that there are too many variables and possible solutions to them.
However, if you can combine a counting scheme with actual foretold events transpiring, then you are on much more solid ground for a prediction that is accurate.
And they had a king over them who is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon[destruction], but in the Greek tongue he has the name Apollyon[destroyer].
-Revelation 9:11
Would we recognize this king? Everyone naturally thinks we would. But, the Bible implies he is not recognized. It will be as in the days of Noah, Jesus says. People are living their lives as though there is no tomorrow. This king appears in the 5th trumpet, and yet people still have not repented in spite of what has already happened up to this point. People are still worshipping demons and idols of gold and silver and wood, as things go from bad to worse.
If this destroyer king is the Antichrist [which I think he must be] we are told that he comes to power by flatteries and a smooth tongue. It says he manages to fool the whole world, and even the elect would be fooled, if that were possible. Do people recognize him for what he is?
Generally, I would say no.
Only those who know their God. Those who lead the many to righteousness. The overcomers.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
--Daniel 11
and I believe he rewards with ministries/authorities in the earth[all babylon religions/ministries]lands
I read where some of the religions make deals to stay in certain terrotories.
Quote from: sheila on December 23, 2012, 04:22:35 PM
and I believe he rewards with ministries/authorities in the earth[all babylon religions/ministries]lands
I read where some of the religions make deals to stay in certain terrotories.
Does that work under the word of Jesus who spoke
render tribute to who tribute is due
nope...the Holy spirit directs His ministry. Acts 16;9 during the night,Paul had a vision of a man in
Macedonia,standing and begging him,'come over to Macedonia and help us. After Paul had seen the vision
we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia,concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel
to them.
Quick side note - I saw earlier folks talking about Google vs. Bing, etc., re: Google and NWO..I couldn't remember where those posts were, so I'm putting this here. It's likely relevant to the Prophecy thread anyway. :eek:
I've been doing some research. In the process, I've deleted Google, Yahoo, and IE. What I've found, and am currently using - and VERY happy with - is the following;
Safari web browser, which is an Apple product, but has a Windows version. After downloading that, there's an app for Safari that can be found online at Cnet.com, which is called "DoNotTrackMe". Then I downloaded Ixquick, which is a secure/private search engine that does not collect/store personal information - not even recording your IP! Since doing that less than 24 hours ago, I've checked the little DoNotTrackMe icon up by the address bar, and it shows that it's blocked 63 attempts to gather information - 10 from social networks (facebook) and 53 from tracking companies trying gather information. Pretty cool, FYI.
Add: 5 minutes later I checked, and it's blocked 3 more tracking companies. Wow.
Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
--Isaiah 41:9-10
Prophecy that the land will be occupied by the house of Judah in the latter days, in the Day of the Lord. Instead of being called 'Israel,' it is called by its true name, 'Judah' in these passages. The house of Israel has not yet been reunited with the house of Judah. The house of Judah = the "Jews."
Zephaniah prophecy: The Lord will give Palestine to the Jews just before the Day of the Lord. The Lord calls on the house of Judah to repent before his return.
Gather together—yes, gather together,
you shameless nation.
2 Gather before judgment begins,
before your time to repent is blown away like chaff.
Act now, before the fierce fury of the Lord falls
and the terrible day of the Lord's anger begins.
3 Seek the Lord, all who are humble,
and follow his commands.
Seek to do what is right
and to live humbly.
Perhaps even yet the Lord will protect you—
protect you from his anger on that day of destruction.
Gaza and Ashkelon will be abandoned,
Ashdod and Ekron torn down.
5 And what sorrow awaits you Philistines
who live along the coast and in the land of Canaan,
for this judgment is against you, too!
The Lord will destroy you
until not one of you is left.
6 The Philistine coast will become a wilderness pasture,
a place of shepherd camps
and enclosures for sheep and goats.
7 The remnant of the tribe of Judah will pasture there.
They will rest at night in the abandoned houses in Ashkelon.
For the Lord their God will visit his people in kindness
and restore their prosperity again.
--Zeph 2
Again, in Zechariah 14, it is right before the Day of the Lord, and Jerusalem is inhabited by Judah. We see the tribe of Judah fighting an invasion of Jerusalem. Judah and Jerusalem are invaded just before the Lord's return.
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
--Zech 14
Another latter day prophecy in Zech 12 also confirms that the house of Judah is back in the land in the last days. We also see the tribe of Judah named as mourning when they see Christ. The house of David and Nathan are tribe of Judah, and the priestly house of Levi belongs with them. These are the non-Christian inhabitants of the land at the time of Christ's return, the house of Judah. The Lord returns to save the land of Judah [modern day Israel] and the house of Judah [modern day Jews].
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
--Zech 12
A Bible Study by Jack Kelley
Although he wrote during the period of 740 to 700 BC, Isaiah is the prophet most often quoted in the New Testament. He was a prophet to the Southern Kingdom at the same time as Hosea, Amos and Micah. Isaiah was of the tribe of Judah, and according to Rabbinic tradition was closely related to several Kings. He was part of the aristocratic class and may have been raised in the King's palace in Jerusalem. Often called the greatest of Israel's writing prophets, Isaiah's book is exceeded in length only by the Psalms and (just barely) Jeremiah. As the Bible has 66 books Isaiah has 66 chapters, The first 39 of them, equal to the books of the Old Testament, speak of judgment. The last 27, the number of New Testament books, focus on reconciliation and redemption. It's true that chapter breaks didn't come along until much later but it's interesting that even in its form, the Book of Isaiah is a model of God's word in total.
This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.
Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Come, O house of Jacob, let us walk in the light of the LORD. (Isaiah 2:1-5)
The word mountain is used symbolically here referring to governments, as in Daniel 2:35. As the Kingdom Age begins, Israel will be the single super power on Earth. All other national governments will be subordinate, creating a one world government, headquartered in Israel, with King Jesus at its head. All the world will be subject to God's laws and the Messiah King will be the final authority on their administration. Psalm 2:9 says that He'll rule with an iron scepter, and will tolerate no dissent.
In a reversal of Joel's call to war (Joel 3:9-11) in his prophecy of the Great Tribulation, Isaiah issued a call to peace during the Millennium, saying the Messiah will settle disputes between nations making war unnecessary. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. This verse is carved over the entrance to the UN building in New York. When the Messiah comes the UN will disappear, but God's promise will remain and will finally come true.
The temple Isaiah mentioned here is the one so carefully described in Ezekiel 40-46. From Ezekiel we learn that the Temple itself will be situated a few miles north of Jerusalem, and from Zechariah 14:4 we see that the current Temple Mount will disappear in an Earthquake that divides the Mt. Of Olives in half. The gorge created by the earthquake will extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Dead Sea. Fresh water will emerge from under the Temple to fill the gorge, bringing life to a region that's been an arid wasteland since the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. (Ezekiel 47)
But before those days can come, the world must first endure the worst time of tribulation ever witnessed on Earth. (Matt. 24:21) Isaiah's first description begins in chapter 2 verse 6 and extends through the end of chapter 3. We'll begin there next time and before we're through, you'll agree that we can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah 01-03-09.
http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/the-end-times-according-to-isaiah-part-1/
A Bible Study by Jack Kelley
We're beginning this installment in Isaiah 2:6 and will continue through chapter 4. Having given us a brief overview of Israel's Kingdom Age, Isaiah will now back up to provide more detail concerning the time just preceding the 2nd Coming.
The Day of the Lord
You have abandoned your people, the house of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and clasp hands with pagans. Their land is full of silver and gold; there is no end to their treasures. Their land is full of horses; there is no end to their chariots. Their land is full of idols; they bow down to the work of their hands, to what their fingers have made. (Isaiah 2:6-8)
Here's another hint that in the End Times Israel will accumulate great wealth. Ezekiel also made reference to Israel's wealth in the time leading up to the battle of Ezekiel 38-39. To explain Gog's motive in forming a coalition to attack Israel, God had Ezekiel reveal his thoughts. "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land." (Ezekiel 38:11-12)
A group of nations standing on the sidelines will confirm this, asking, "Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?" (Ezekiel 38:13)
Today no such plunder exists. Therefore there's no motive for Russia (Magog) to lead the attack. All the talk about destroying Israel is based on religious issues, something that doesn't interest Russia. So there really isn't any incentive of the kind Ezekiel mentioned to goad Russia into action. However, if Israel was to discover massive oil reserves, as some believe will happen soon, that would be a different story. Russia has a strategic interest in the world's oil. A large discovery in Israel could serve as a tempting pay-off for Russia, sufficient to justify leading the Moslem coalition in its religious quest to destroy the Jewish nation.
A number of insiders say it's only a matter of time before this happens, putting Israel awash in petro-dollars with the promise of billions more to come. They say Moses prophesied this in Deut. 33:19 & 24. Knowledgeable men are drilling in Israel today on the strength of these prophecies and early results are promising.
So man will be brought low and mankind humbled—do not forgive them. Go into the rocks, hide in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty! The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. (Isaiah 2:7-11)
Notice that the Lord isn't just talking about Israel here, but all of mankind. By the time He's finished there will be no doubt as to Who is exalted and who is not. Zechariah spoke of the day of the Lord's return this way. The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name. (Zechariah 14:9)
Later Paul would write: Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:9-11) By the way, acknowledging Him as Lord is a good thing to do, but it won't solve the unbelieving world's problem. After He comes back it'll be too late for them to accept Him as their Savior and escape the judgment. They'll be led off agreeing that He really is Lord and admitting that they refused His offer of pardon.
The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled), for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty, and all the oaks of Bashan, for all the towering mountains and all the high hills, for every lofty tower and every fortified wall, for every trading ship and every stately vessel.
The arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day, and the idols will totally disappear. Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.
In that day men will throw away to the rodents and bats their idols of silver and idols of gold, which they made to worship. They will flee to caverns in the rocks and to the overhanging crags from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth. Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he? (Isaiah 2:12-22)
Three things mentioned repeatedly here give us a vivid scene of the End Times. Arrogant men, having engaged in idolatry in defiance of the Lord, hiding in rocks from the wrath of the Almighty. Please remember, idols aren't necessarily little statues. Idols are anything that man holds to be of greater importance in his life than the Lord. Zechariah 13:2 says, "On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more," declares the LORD Almighty.
And in Rev. 6:15-17 John wrote: Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
With the opening of the seven seals, the Wrath of God will have come and mankind will begin experiencing the consequences of their disobedience. Like their first father Adam, they were only given one rule, to believe in the one He has sent (John 6:29), but they refused.
Isaiah 3 ... Judgment On Jerusalem And Judah
Now Isaiah's focus will narrow to deal specifically with the Jewish people
See now, the Lord, the LORD Almighty, is about to take from Jerusalem and Judah both supply and support: all supplies of food and all supplies of water, the hero and warrior, the judge and prophet, the soothsayer and elder, the captain of fifty and man of rank, the counselor, skilled craftsman and clever enchanter.
I will make boys their officials; mere children will govern them. People will oppress each other— man against man, neighbor against neighbor. The young will rise up against the old, the base against the honorable. A man will seize one of his brothers at his father's home, and say, "You have a cloak, you be our leader; take charge of this heap of ruins!"
But in that day he will cry out, "I have no remedy. I have no food or clothing in my house; do not make me the leader of the people."
Jerusalem staggers, Judah is falling; their words and deeds are against the LORD, defying his glorious presence. The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves. (Isaiah 3:1-10)
Israel will experience a vacuum of leadership. There will be no common purpose among the people. Their only thought will be for survival. They will search in vain for someone to help them solve their problems, but no one will be found. Having enjoyed great wealth, they will now have so little that a man with a coat will be thought to have leadership potential.
Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds. Woe to the wicked! Disaster is upon them! They will be paid back for what their hands have done. Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path.
The LORD takes his place in court; he rises to judge the people. The LORD enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: "It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?" declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty. (Isaiah 3:10-15)
As Peter wrote, The Lord knows how to rescue Godly men from trials, while holding the unrighteous for judgment. (2 Peter 2:9) One way the Lord judges rebellious people is to give them unworthy leaders who take them farther from God's truth into the deception of mankind.
If you're reading this carefully, you can see the parallels to our current situation in the US. We've enjoyed such wealth, and now that it's being taken away, we don't know what to do. We look around for someone, anyone, who says he can fix the problem regardless of his experience, or lack thereof. We have an irrational hope that all our problems will be solved within the next several months and when it doesn't happen we'll all be upset. We don't realize that as rebellious people we have no right to expect that God will give us leaders who can solve our problems. More likely we'll be taken further off the path.
The LORD says, "The women of Zion are haughty, walking along with outstretched necks, flirting with their eyes, tripping along with mincing steps, with ornaments jingling on their ankles.
Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion; the LORD will make their scalps bald." In that day the Lord will snatch away their finery: the bangles and headbands and crescent necklaces, the earrings and bracelets and veils, the headdresses and ankle chains and sashes, the perfume bottles and charms, the signet rings and nose rings, the fine robes and the capes and cloaks, the purses and mirrors, and the linen garments and tiaras and shawls.
Instead of fragrance there will be a stench; instead of a sash, a rope; instead of well-dressed hair, baldness; instead of fine clothing, sackcloth; instead of beauty, branding. Your men will fall by the sword, your warriors in battle. The gates of Zion will lament and mourn; destitute, she will sit on the ground. (Isaiah 3:16-26)
In ancient times captured women were branded, their heads were shaved and rings were put through their noses, by which they were led off in rags to servitude. Pictures from the holocaust reflect a more modern adaptation. In the End times the people of Earth will see this yet again.
Isaiah 4 ... The Branch Of The Lord
In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, "We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!" (Isaiah 4:1)
Beginning in Isaiah 3:16 the Lord had Isaiah speak against the vanity of Israel's women. Their wealth and their pride will be taken away to the point where multiple women will be willing to join together and agree to pay their own expenses to come under the legal protection of one man through marriage.
In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem. The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire. Then the LORD will create over all of Mount Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow of flaming fire by night; over all the glory will be a canopy. It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain. (Isaiah 4:2-6)
When the Messiah comes He'll bring a Spirit of judgment and a Spirit of fire to cleanse the world. Living believers will be welcomed into the Kingdom (Matt. 25:34) while unbelievers will be taken away to eternal [aionios] punishment (Matt. 25:46).
Concerning the women of Zion, there's a beautiful picture here of the Messiah washing away all their impurities. In verse 5 the word translated defense (KJV) or canopy (NIV) is chuppah, the Jewish wedding canopy, symbolizing that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 4:1 and "marry" all of them by bringing them under His protection, to be called by His name. And in verse 6 the word translated tabernacle (KJV) or shelter (NIV) is sukkah. It's the name of the shelter that Jews build on the Feast of Tabernacles, to symbolize the Lord dwelling with them. The pillar of fire by night and cloud by day complete the memorial of His time with them in the wilderness, (Exodus 13:21) and announce that once again God will dwell with His people in a time of complete protection and provision. Get ready, Planet Earth, you can almost hear the Footsteps of the Messiah. 01-10-09
http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/the-end-times-according-to-isaiah-part-2/
When the Messiah comes He'll bring a Spirit of judgment and a Spirit of fire to cleanse the world. Living believers will be welcomed into the Kingdom (Matt. 25:34) while unbelievers will be taken away to eternal [aionios] punishment (Matt. 25:46).
IMO, in Matthew 25, these are pictures of the Great White Throne judgment at the second resurrection. Consider that the reason we should watch, "because no one knos the day or the hour", is because no one knows the hour of their death, from which each of us(who does not awaken in the first resurrection) will awaken to the "sheep and goat" resurrection. Unbelievers are not ushered into aionian judgment at the beginning of the millenial reign imo- Jesus will rule from Jerusalem with a rod of iron.
The passage below from Zechariah speaks of the plague that will fall upon those who do not send their representatives to Jerusalem to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ- mentioning specifically Egypt. This will be a "year to year" enforcement showing(IMO) that throughout the millienial reign their will be those who are in submission only because they have to be- thus explaining why the adversary will find so many ready recruits for Gog Magog at the end of the 1000 years
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity(coming soon!), and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(Zec 14:1-19)
Quote from: EWAnd it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(Zec 14:1-19)
I wonder if this decree is the "eternal" [aionios] punishment of the goat nations?
Because it is nations being judged here:
31
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
--Mat 25
And the aion that this punishment will last will be 1000 years?
The punishment: Celebrate the feast of Tabernacles, or else.
yes, it says nations, but IMO that simply refers to the aggregates of people who have been rebellious, for we clearly see in the separation of the sheeps and goats that it is by their individual acts and attitudes that they are placed in one category or another. And I believe this is at the great white throne. God will not consign an entire nation to aionios kolassis because of the actions of a few or even a majority. God judges individuals as far as aionian judgments are concerned. "It is given to man once to die and the comes the judgment.
Another interesting point to me, is that even after Satan and the beast and the false prophet are bound (probably in the same manner as the angels of Jude 6)- there are still rebellious nations and individuals that must be ruled with the rod- showing that the devil does not deserve as much credit for our ills as he gets- I guess he simply marshalls our already existing disobedience in order to destroy us as he seeks to further wound the Father. When he is locked away however, with no one to "stir up" and "gather the nations to war" the reign of righteousness will proceed nicely(swords into plowshears, lion & the lamb), until the one who has the chains is taken out of the way for Gog and Magog at the end of the millenial reign.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 24, 2012, 08:07:06 PM
yes, it says nations, but IMO that simply refers to the aggregates of people who have been rebellious, for we clearly see in the separation of the sheeps and goats that it is by their individual acts and attitudes that they are placed in one category or another. And I believe this is at the great white throne. God will not consign an entire nation to aionios kolassis because of the actions of a few or even a majority. God judges individuals as far as aionian judgments are concerned. "It is given to man once to die and the comes the judgment.
Another interesting point to me, is that even after Satan and the beast and the false prophet are bound (probably in the same manner as the angels of Jude 6)- there are still rebellious nations and individuals that must be ruled with the rod- showing that the devil does not deserve as much credit for our ills as he gets- I guess he simply marshalls our already existing disobedience in order to destroy us as he seeks to further wound the Father. When he is locked away however, with no one to "stir up" and "gather the nations to war" the reign of righteousness will proceed nicely(swords into plowshears, lion & the lamb), until the one who has the chains is taken out of the way for Gog and Magog at the end of the millenial reign.
Look at it again. Yes, it does say, Nations. And it gives Egypt as an example. This is not the Great White Throne Judgment. This happens "when the Son of Man returns in his glory," which is the return of Jesus. The judgment of men at that time will be implicit in the marriage of the bride, and the first resurrection [those who are the dead in Christ only]. But, there will still be those outside the city. And he will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
But here we are told the punishment of the goat nations [with Egypt as an example] is celebrate Tabernacles, or else. So now we must think of the nations which rush to the aid of other nations, and the individual people of other nations, and those that don't.
And, by and large, it is the Christian nations that do.
31
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
--Mat 25
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
--Mat 25
"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.
--Isa 65:20
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
--Zec 14
It is given to man once to die- and then comes judgment.
IMO When a person dies- they go into whatever state you care to believe in, Sheol, soul sleep, Paradise or the Abyss, non-existence, etc- non of that matters much really because when a person dies- as far as their consciousness is concerned- everyone wakes up in one moment- the judgment.
"Hide us from the Lamb and the one who sits on the throne"
"Every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him"
Therefore Jesus tells us to watch. Who has he told to watch? EVERYONE WHO HAS HEARD HIS WORD SINCE HE SPOKE IT 2000 YEARS AGO.
Please do not misunderstand me, I am not a preterist, I believe the second advent is yet to come but, all of these warnings were not just written for the generation that sees the actual historical occurence of the second advent because
EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM. THE VEIL IN THE HEAVENS WILL BE ROLLED BACK LIKE A SCROLL. In other words, (IMO) everyone who ever lived will awaken in that moment and the judgment will begin.
Therefore watch because the day of the Lord comes like a thief. Who is the thief? Death. Therefore walk in the light as children of the day. We are not taken by death as a thief. We enter death already victorious over it. Of the people of Noah's day it is written,
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
(Mat 24:35-39)
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:14-16)
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
(Isa 27:1-2)
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
(Rev 19:11-15)
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire(His eyes were as flames of fire), and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss(Lord, Lord, didnt we...?); but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire(depart from me into the fire ....).
(1Co 3:12-15)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them(Psalm 82!)(know ye not that ye shall judge angels?): and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:4-5)
IMO all these verses speak to the judgment of God and the day of the Lord.
In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
(Zec 14:6-7)
IMO, From the second advent until the great white throne will be judgment- the Day of the Lord. By the end of that day all judgment will be at an end. The elements of the world that was will have been "destroyed by fire" and remade into a new heavens and a new earth "wherein dwells righteousness" God will be ALL IN ALL (2 Pet 3:13)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat(intense fire), the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(every man's works will be tried with fire for THE DAY shall reveal it) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness(in which righteousness tabernacles- a tent full of righteousness). Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(2Pe 3:10-16)
Now, Peter states clearly that these things are "hard to be understood", and I don't claim to understand all the details of the timing of eschatology and apocalypse or the unveiling of the typology involved. I LOOK ASKANCE AT ANYONE WHO CLAIMS IT IS SIMPLE AND CLEAR AND THEY "HAVE IT" and I definitely don't "have it", there is much yet to be revealed in the mid-rash of the brethren. Peace.
I have it,the hope of knowing him more.
That's a beautiful "it" to have, brother :o)
The Thousand Years
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. 3 The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.
4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
7 When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. 8 He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. 9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.
10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Final Judgment
11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.
--Revelation 20
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
--1 Cor 6:3
Quote from: eaglesway on December 24, 2012, 08:53:17 PM
It is given to man once to die- and then comes judgment.
IMO When a person dies- they go into whatever state you care to believe in, Sheol, soul sleep, Paradise or the Abyss, non-existence, etc- non of that matters much really because when a person dies- as far as their consciousness is concerned- everyone wakes up in one moment- the judgment.
"Hide us from the Lamb and the one who sits on the throne"
"Every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him"
Therefore Jesus tells us to watch. Who has he told to watch? EVERYONE WHO HAS HEARD HIS WORD SINCE HE SPOKE IT 2000 YEARS AGO.
Please do not misunderstand me, I am not a preterist, I believe the second advent is yet to come but, all of these warnings were not just written for the generation that sees the actual historical occurence of the second advent because
EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM. THE VEIL IN THE HEAVENS WILL BE ROLLED BACK LIKE A SCROLL. In other words, (IMO) everyone who ever lived will awaken in that moment and the judgment will begin.
Therefore watch because the day of the Lord comes like a thief. Who is the thief? Death. Therefore walk in the light as children of the day. We are not taken by death as a thief. We enter death already victorious over it. Of the people of Noah's day it is written,
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
(Mat 24:35-39)
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:14-16)
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
(Isa 27:1-2)
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
(Rev 19:11-15)
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire(His eyes were as flames of fire), and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss(Lord, Lord, didnt we...?); but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire(depart from me into the fire ....).
(1Co 3:12-15)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them(Psalm 82!)(know ye not that ye shall judge angels?): and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:4-5)
IMO all these verses speak to the judgment of God and the day of the Lord.
In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
(Zec 14:6-7)
IMO, From the second advent until the great white throne will be judgment- the Day of the Lord. By the end of that day all judgment will be at an end. The elements of the world that was will have been "destroyed by fire" and remade into a new heavens and a new earth "wherein dwells righteousness" God will be ALL IN ALL (2 Pet 3:13)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat(intense fire), the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(every man's works will be tried with fire for THE DAY shall reveal it) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness(in which righteousness tabernacles- a tent full of righteousness). Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(2Pe 3:10-16)
Now, Peter states clearly that these things are "hard to be understood", and I don't claim to understand all the details of the timing of eschatology and apocalypse or the unveiling of the typology involved. I LOOK ASKANCE AT ANYONE WHO CLAIMS IT IS SIMPLE AND CLEAR AND THEY "HAVE IT" and I definitely don't "have it", there is much yet to be revealed in the mid-rash of the brethren. Peace.
"IMO When a person dies- they go into whatever state you care to believe in, Sheol, soul sleep, Paradise or the Abyss, non-existence, etc- non of that matters much really because when a person dies- as far as their consciousness is concerned- everyone wakes up in one moment- the judgment., Sheol, soul sleep, Paradise or the Abyss, non-existence, etc- non of that matters much really because when a person dies- as far as their consciousness is concerned- everyone wakes up in one moment- the judgment."
Very well put, "IMO When a person dies- they go into
whatever state you care to believe in...."
Micah - Yep.
Where did everyone go? What's up? :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch:
well.the dragon was given a host to trample on the daily sacrifices of the temple..because of this
many churches teach error that men lie in their graves. Men are like trees..our spirits are dwelling
in wooden coffins. when we are raised at the hour of death..man's spirit is raised first[resurrection]
we are not in this body alone..the evil spirits are also cast out of the reaping angels...as an abominable
branch and are not given the dignity of burial with our flesh that is left behind[that is the secound resurrection
of the wicked..which then returns to the dust of the earth and possesse's some other man.
David bought the threshinf floor to build an altar unto the Lord to stop the plague[of death] O'death
I shall be thy plagues. at this threshing floor the Son of David has bought He removes chaff/flesh and
resurrects the spirits of redeemed man[wheat into barn/storehouse of heaven]
men are as sheep for the slaughter..daily sacrifices unto God in Heaven..morning and evening sacrifices
to God that Jesus as High Preist provides to Father for Honour......at the Heavenly altar..men are washed
of the lavers of water..the fire of HIS TRUE WORDS AND THEIR MEANING ARE PREACHED TO THEM.
at the heavenly altar..and things they had not known are declared to them..
Jesus pot the threshing floor with His blood..He also owns the potters field.....when He shepherds
the nations[deceived possessed men] with a rod of iron and shatters a clay vessel...He redeems
the spirit of that man..and remakes him into a vessel of honour and mercy.
in each man's body,or field of earth..there is wheat/tares planted, or sheep/goats pasturing,or
God's good spirit/spirit of evil/prince of this world. Jesus delivers from this body undergoing this death.
He calls forth the wheat/sheep to inherit..and seperates the tares/goats/prince of this world.
the whole world under the Prince of this world is Egypt[redeemed man to be made over in Christ's image is the true
Isreal of God. Men have become captive of prince of this world..for the most part..and become slaves
to sin[taken captive of the devil to do his will]
Now,as far as I can see.. any time we 'get in the flesh' there is contention strife greed murder and war..
but that term[in the flesh] is really a being under the influence of the spirit of the adversary..and doing his will
while we are in the spirit of holiness..there is peace,love joy,mildness.
also..though the beast and false prophet were taken out of the way..babylon and the spirit of harlotry=
fornication with the spirit of the kings of this world..were still ongoing......now I count man's sin's not
against him because of Jesus blood..and through no-other means[they know not what they do].
Gog's crowd are under the spirit of the adversary and there is going to be all the fruit of that spirit evidenced..
just as it is in us when we don't rule over it by the Holy spirit.
these are very deep things and hard for us all to wrap our minds around.I pray that God be with us all
and declare,refine our understanding,that we may have the mind of Christ in this matter.
fDo Not be amazed at this,for the hour is coming ..when all who are in their graves..will hear His voice
and come out-those who have done good[good portion of tokogae/God portion in man] will rise to live/sheep/1st
resurrection
those that have done evil will rise to be condemned[wicked tool portion of tokogae] goats/tares/2nd resurrection.
By myself I can do nothing;I JUDGE ONLY AS I HEAR,AND MY JUDGEMENT IS JUST, FOR I SEEK
NOT TO PLEASE MYSELF BUT HIM WHO SENT ME.
at the hour of death[which no man knows,but God] Jesus testifies as to what happens
.
now He tells us He judges no man..so what exactly is He judging here? He is,as far as I can see......
making dicernment of evil/good spirits in the tree of knowledge of good and evil expierence. And
He is giving God's things to God[man raised up in the incorruptible image of God] and the prince of this
world is given his Man is saved from the 'wrath' of God by Jesus in the judging
there is no condemnation of man in the tree of life..what has been done to the flesh of man is the same
as to the flesh of Jesus.... a spirit of malicious hatred that brought him death..has no place..
Sheila, do you make any differentiation between the followers of Jesus and everyone else in the world as to what their fate is? I don't mean in the long term but in the short term, which for these purposes is aionic.
when man's flesh become serpent bit[sin entered] it was the same as piercing Him[if ye have done it
to one of the least one of these,ye have done it to me.
Rev 20;11 they flee from His throne[that old serpent in the old heavens and earth]
he hides in man's flesh[for He knows God loves man..the mountains of the promises go to man as
his portion..thus satan hides in the holes and caves of our flesh..wants our flesh to 'cover' him....
the 'sinners' in Zion are afraid..'who can dwell in constant burnings[lof]
Isaaih 27;1 the Lord will punish with His sword..his fierce great and powerful sword.Leviathan
the fleeing serpent,Leviathan the coiling serpent,he will slay the monster of the sea[as living stones we are
the mountain of the Lord that fills the earth].Prvrbs 30;18 there are three thing too amazing for me..even four
the way of an eagle in the sky, THE WAY OF A SNAKE ON A ROCK] p.s. when the sun starts warming up
serpents flee from the heat into hidey-holes. God comes with His sword of judgement and severes wicked spirits
from the soul of man[He divides the good from the evil in His judgement...what a strange and awesome
work He does......and a sword will pierce your soul,too.
well,yes,there is a differentiation..from those who are 'wise' and those who do not understand..
The elect, will declare the Glory Of God in this manner..and can lead to the righteousness of God...
instead of being deceived and finding themselves working on the wrong side.They ahve access to Jesus,
God's angels that stand by..and it is a great glory unto any man..to be a fellow-worker with the kingdom
of heaven.They can truly comfort mankind..and assure them of the salvation of All men.Especially at
this time of the end..when satan knows his time is short..and will do great evil and cause much
suffering for mankind in this good/evil exercize. Also,the fear of death needs be removed from mankind..
Those that believe the deception will judge wrongly the intent of Father's and Jesus motives at this time..
they are coming to deliver all mankind from this body of death and clothe us in immortality..but others
that are deceived will expierence death in great terror as being condemned and unloved of God...I pity
them going under that delusion..and if the truth can spare them that 'trauma' of thinking they are hated
of God and being without hope in Him..I want them to know it.
OUR DELIVERANCE DRAWS NIGH...we look forward to all the wonderful things He has prepared for us.
we need strengthened with the assurance of the resurrection/immortality..we need comforted that we
are the children of God. Why should we be like those without hope[satan and evil spirits] terror and fear
and hopelessness are the mindset of man deluded of satan..but faith hope and love remains in us
as we see His appearing.
the elect can strengthen 'wobbly' knees..so man can stand[lift yourself erect] God's wrath is aimed
at the prince of this world and his evil works.
...the last enemy 'death' must be overcome..and placed beneath our feet..to overcome and be clothed
in immortality. also,even if you are changed..and do not expierence it..the fear of it needs be removed
Jesus broke open the gates of death..that they should not hold us..and ,just as the prince of this world
comes,and the hour draws nigh, he should have no part in us either. We can not shrink back in fear
of death..it has no sting. Jesus said,'I am returning unto the Father" that is the mind we should have.
the pale horse immediately follows the black horse..the elect need to overcome the fear of death
as well as what shall we eat......the time of the end of flesh is upon us..and we must spiritually prepare
that we remain strong[faint not] and are able to stand.
we need not fear the four horsemen..they are a terror to evil spirits as they portend the time when man
will no longer be clothed in flesh. The pale horse death is overcome in that we are new spiritual creatures
and are to be clothed in immortal celestial flesh..no fear of being 'unclothed' should reign over us...
as the fear of death reigns over those deluded by satan.[Paul's commentary on not wishing to be
'unclothed'..when his time for change of garment was drawing nigh.
just as the white horse has gone forth in conquest..we know the victory in the battle against the
Kingdom of darkness was won in Jesus Christ..and He has redeemed all mankind.Have no fear little
flock for I have overcome the world.
the fiery red one went forth also, fiery trials for us growing in the spirit[enmity between the seeds]...
power to take peace away from the earth'do not suppose I came to bring peace to the world,but a sword..
it pleased Him to trouble the 'carnal' that troubled the spirit man......He is bent on VICTORY!!!!
when Jesus looked up and saw a GREAT CROWD COMING TOWARD HIM,He said to Philip..
'Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?. He asked this only to test him,for He already
had in mind what He was going to do. Phulip answered 'Eight months wages would not be enough
for everyone to have a bite!" Andrew said ,'here is a boy with five barley loaves and two fishes,but
how far will they go among so many? Jesus said 'have the people sit down..................
Gather the pieces that are left over.Let nothing be wasted.....they filled 12 baskets with the peices of
the barley loaves left over.
Mark 8; I HAVE PITY FOR THIS PEOPLE...THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN WITH ME THREE DAYS
AND HAVE NOTHING TO EAT[but condemnation]...IF......I......SEND THEM HOME HUNGRY......
THEY MIGHT GIVE OUT ON THE WAY...BECAUSE SOME OF THEM HAVE COME A LONG DISTANCE.
He told the crowd to sit down on the ground..and He took the sevenloaves and gave thanks and broke them
and He gave them to His disciples to set before the people,and they did so.
Afterwards,the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces. that were left over.
Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod. Why are you talking about having no bread
Do you have eyes that fail to see or ears that fail to hear? Do you still not understand.?
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 26, 2012, 07:12:17 AM
Where did everyone go? What's up? :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch:
It's Christmas Micah, all the heathen gather to Jerusalem at least once a year to worship the king. I believe Christmas is a partial fulfillment of that great prophecy.
Gather the pieces that are left over.Let nothing be wasted.....they filled 12 baskets with the peices of
the barley loaves left over.
Twelve baskets left over.
A doggie bag for each apostle
:laugh: that was too cute!
Grace in the Tanakh - "An Answer from Scripture for Dispensationalists"
Ellen Kavanaugh
Grace (G-d's mercy) was always present, it's not a newer church invention. G-d never changes; His mercy never changes, the Way of salvation never changes. Man has always understood that G-d is merciful and forgiving towards him; Yeshua did not introduce the concepts of mercy and salvation, He *fulfilled* the *ancient promises* of mercy and salvation.
Luke 1:69-72 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant.
This verse best shows that Yeshua was fulfilling a promise made to Israel. He wasn't introducing a new concept!
Before Messiah's office was fully understood, mercy and salvation were linked. Many dispensationalists act as if the "old testament" way of salvation was works, but thankfully, now we have Grace. But that is a false dichotomy --- G-d's grace was always present, since the very beginning. Below is a long list of such passages showing dependance on mercy --- never works!
2 Samuel 22:51 A tower of salvation is He to His king; and showeth mercy to His anointed, to David and to his seed, for evermore.
Psalms 13:5 (13 -6) But as for me, in Thy mercy do I trust; my heart shall rejoice in Thy salvation.
Psalms 69:13(69-14) But as for me, let my prayer be unto Thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time; O God, in the abundance of Thy mercy, answer me with the truth of Thy salvation.
Psalms 86:13 For great is Thy mercy toward me; and Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest nether-world.
Psalms 98:3 He hath remembered His mercy and His faithfulness toward the house of Israel; all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
Psalms 109:21 But Thou, O GOD the Lord, deal with me for Thy name's sake; because Thy mercy is good, deliver Thou me.
Psalms 109:26 Help me, O LORD my God; O save me according to Thy mercy;
Psalms 98:1 O sing unto the LORD a new song; for He hath done marvellous things; His right hand, and His holy arm, hath wrought salvation for Him.
Psalms 136:12 With a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, for His mercy endureth for ever.
Romans 11:27 says "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
There are many references in the Tanakh that G-d would remove their sins. *Their* sins, not just future generations who followed them, but their own.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
Jeremiah 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way, and I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.'
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint the most holy place.
Now, G-d made these promises not to the church, but to Israel --- centuries prior to Yeshua's coming. Can we usurp the promises and apply them only to the "new church program" the dispensationalists teach? What happens to those who came before Yeshua's atoning death? The implications, in denying that grace extends from and to the past is in effect say no one received salvation prior to Yeshua. Then we have problems with Abraham and Noah who were found righteous before YHVH (and therefore 'saved') before Yeshua came. Yeshua's blood pours back in time, it covers all the faithful. Yeshua was the means of G-d's promised salvation.
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/grace.html
Thank you Molly for the lightofmashiach.org url... I went to it immediately as I wondered if there were some connection with Jews for Jesus with whom I have some history. I contributed toward their missionary endeavors after I attended a Jews for Jesus event in St. Paul, MN and later I spent about 2 weeks in San Francisco--actually Daley City with a distant cousin (we share a great grandfather) Diane and her husband Hyam Cohen (died in 2009) who was on JFJ staff...headed up the Purple Pomegrenate Productions Dept.... in 1994.... Diane and I are "Gentiles" :) I volunteered a couple of days in their main office and 1 day in Hyam's dept... JFJ were looking to hire an executive secretary (I qualified...but was not interested in moving to SF nor was I really still believing that Jesus would return on a mountain in Israel... Oh my... your post and my subsequent search of lightofmashiach has brought back a ton of memories...)
and most important
I really appreciate the article on "grace" "mercy".... and, of course, the Scripture references have and will lead me to further "light" on end times .... I've been thinking a bit about the two witnesses and because I've been greatly influenced by the principle "physical realities reveal spiritual truths" I am somewhat "playing" with the idea that the two witnesses are grace and truth or mercy and truth...
By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
--Heb 11:3
You cannot understand this without faith. Do not ask me why. There is so much evidence for God at this point in the hands of science and yet they persist in denying him. Worse yet, they make fun of us who do not. You can now prove the existence of God from known science, and still they will not accept it.
This has been a source of frustration to me for years.
I have to keep reminding myself--even though it makes no rational sense to me--you cannot understand this without faith. The Bible tells us this, and it's true.
Given this, all prophecy in the Bible is also true. And, also true, you cannot accept it without faith.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
--Heb 11
Molly, in the definition of science, they omit anything that is supernatural.
It must be testable, observable, and repeatable.
Creation cannot be proven scientifically but you are right that creation fits
the preponderance of evidence much more so than the alternative.
Evolution violates the laws of science on several points and is beginning to be more and more rejected by top scientists.
I am a 6 day creationist.
Bible students should realize that Jesus taught creation and I'm pretty sure he would know. :gimmefive:
By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
--Heb 11:3
EXCELLENT PROOF! Glory and Amen.
Proof to us Micah but not proof to anyone that does not believe scripture.
The faith of non-believers/atheists is that everything came from nothing.
Whereas we know everything came from God
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 28, 2012, 08:31:30 PM
Proof to us Micah but not proof to anyone that does not believe scripture.
The faith of non-believers/atheists is that everything came from nothing.
Whereas we know everything came from God
That's very true, thing is "they" just don't know as of yet, when "they" believe the truth will set them free. I love that song...EVERYBODY OUGHTA KNOW, EVERYBODY OUGHTA KNOW, EVERYBODY OUGHTA KNOW, WHO JESUS IS! Yes sir everybody's gonna know. :dsunny:
This is the way I understand it. There will be the great tribulation which is also known as the time of Jacob's trouble and which will be mainly directed at the Jews [for 3.5 years]. Some of the church will be protected during this time and some will go through tribulation also. This is followed by the return of Christ, also known as the day of the Lord, and the rapture, and then God's wrath poured upon the world. I think much of the confusion comes from not understanding that the great tribulation and the day of God's wrath [day of the Lord] are two different events. This made it clearer to me, anyway. But, I"m still working on it.
The Day of the Lord: The Wrath of God
By Rev. Roger Best
In both the Old and New Testaments we often read about "the day of the Lord," "the day of Christ," or even "that day," and frequently there is much confusion surrounding the meaning of these phrases. In this brief study we will take a close look at what the Bible is referring to when these terms are used, for they are of extreme importance to believers.
In 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul tells us that this day will come to the unbeliever as a "thief." His exhortation in verse 6 is to "be alert and sober," and in verse 4 he says that because the believer is "not in darkness" that day should not overtake him as a thief. The problem is that many believers today do not understand what the "day of the Lord" is and therefore do not know why they need to be alert.
The phrase "the day of the Lord" appears some twenty-one times in the Old Testament, and in all but a couple of instances it refers to a time yet future. For example: Joel 1:15, "Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is near" and Zephaniah 1:14, "Near is the great day of the Lord." The same is true in the New Testament where the phrase "the day of the Lord" appears six times and speaks of a day yet future. 2 Peter 3:10 tells us that "the day of the Lord will come like a thief" sometime in the future. So as we examine these twenty-seven passages in the Bible containing the phrase "the day of the Lord," it is clear that it is speaking of a day yet future. In the New Testament we also have the phrase "the day of Christ" which appears three times -- all in the epistle to the Philippians. Each time it is used (1:6, 10 , 2:16) it is also clear that it is speaking of a future day. So from the context of these passages we can clearly determine that the "day of the Lord" is a day in the future. Remember, Paul said that if we are alert we will know when it has come (1 Thess. 5:4)!
Now it is important to understand what "the day of the Lord" really is and what will happen in this day. There are various opinions as to what it might be. Most pre-tribulationists believe it is the 7 year tribulation period or what the Bible speaks of as Daniel's seventieth week. John Walvoord in his book "The Rapture Question" (pp. 162-163) says, "The Day of the Lord as presented in the Old and New Testament includes rather than follows the tremendous events of the tribulation period. In a word, the Day of the Lord begins before the great tribulation." J. Dwight Pentecost in his book, "Things To Come" (p. 174) states, "The term the Day of the Lord, or that day, is not a term which applies to a twenty-four hour period, but rather the whole program of events, including the tribulation period, the second advent program, and the entire millennial age."
Let us examine these thoughts in light of Scripture. Joel 1:15 says the day of the Lord "will come as destruction from the Almighty." In Joel 2:2 the prophet describes it this way, "A day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness." Notice the description in Amos 5:20, "Will not the day of the Lord be darkness instead of light, even gloom with no brightness in it?" The prophecies of the day of the Lord in the Old Testament speak of it as a time of serious trouble and difficulty. The theme of the book of Joel is the day of the Lord, and many references are made to the terrible day it will be. Joel speaks of it in chapter 2 as "a great and awesome day." Zephaniah 1:14-15 says, "Near is the great day of the Lord, near and coming very quickly; listen, the day of the Lord! In it the warrior cries out bitterly. A day of wrath is that day, a day of trouble and distress, a day of destruction and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom a day of clouds and thick darkness." There are five Hebrew words in the Old Testament that are sometimes translated "wrath." In the Zephaniah passage above the word is "ebrah" which is a word that speaks of overwhelming fury. This particular meaning is the strongest of those words translated "wrath."
Take a look at what the Old Testament says will characterize the day of the Lord:
1. A day of Reckoning - Isa. 2:12
2. A day of Judgment - Isa. 2:13-17
3. A day Cruel, with Fury and Burning Anger - Isa. 13:9
4. A day of Destruction from the Almighty - Isa. 13:6; Joel 1:15
5. A day of Panic, Subjugation, and Confusion - Isa. 22:5
6. A day of Vengeance - Jer. 46:10
7. A day that Belongs to the Lord God of Hosts - Jer. 46:10
8. A day of Tumult - Eze. 7:7
9. A day of Doom - Eze. 7:10; 30:3
10. A day of Battle - Eze. 13:5; Zech. 14:3
11. A day of Clouds - Eze. 30:3
12. A day of Judgment for Egypt - Exe. 30:19
13. A day of Gloom and Darkness - Joel 2:2; Amos 5:18, 20; 8:9
14. A day that is Great and Awesome - Joel 2:11; 3:1
15. A day when the Sun and Moon grow dark - Joel 3:15
16. A day when Justice is Dealt Out - Obadiah 15
17. A day of Punishment - Zeph. 1:8
18. A day of the Lord's Anger - Zeph. 2:23
19. A day that is Unique - Zech. 14:7a
Looking at all the passages that deal with the day of the Lord in the Old Testament, it is clear that this is the time that God's Wrath will be poured out upon an unbelieving world sometime in the future.
In the New Testament Peter makes it clear what kind of a time the day of the Lord is, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, which righteousness dwells" (2 Pet. 3:10-13). It is also a day of deliverance for the people of God, those who have been chosen before the foundation of the world -- the elect. Believers have the promise to be delivered from the wrath to come (see Romans 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9). In Luke 17 Jesus says that it will come as deliverance to the believer just as deliverance came to Noah and Lot. They were both rescued, Noah in the ark and Lot from the destruction of Sodom, and then destruction came upon the unaware and unprepared world. Note what Jesus says in 17:30, "It will be just the same on the day that the son of Man is revealed." We will be rescued in what we call the rapture, and then the day of the Lord's wrath will be poured out on this old world.
Let me share how Robert Van Kampen describes the day of the Lord in the glossary of The Sign; "Synonymous with the second coming (parousia) of Christ. Also called the "end of the age," the "final harvest," and the "seventh seal," which includes God's trumpet and bowl judgments and is culminated in the battle of Armageddon. The most prophesied event in the Old Testament concerning the last days, the day of the Lord is marked by God's fiery, judgmental wrath against the earth's wicked. The primary purpose of the day-of-the-Lord wrath will be to destroy the kingdom of darkness, giving specific attention to the final beast empire of Satan which will then dominate the world. It will begin on the same day that the Rapture occurs, cutting short the great tribulation by Antichrist, sometime during the second half of the seventieth week. It will be announced with a sign divinely displayed in the heavens. (see Sign of the End of the Age).
A secondary purpose of the day of the Lord will be to refine the third part of the nation of Israel who will survive the great tribulation by Antichrist, in preparation for the salvation of the surviving remnant of the nation (one tenth) after the seventieth week is complete thus completing the spiritual kingdom of God. If the day of the Lord did not cut short the great tribulation by Antichrist, none of God's elect, Jew or Gentile, would survive.
The day of the Lord's wrath is composed of two major parts. The first is the series of God's trumpet judgments against the earth's wicked, including unsaved Israel, that will occur while the seventieth week is in progress. The second part is the series of bowl judgments, "which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished." These will begin after the seventieth week is complete, after the surviving remnant of Israel is saved and the Lord has hidden them in Azel for protection. The day of the Lord will end at the climactic battle (or campaign) of Armageddon."
http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0012.html
So this makes sense to ,me:
Great Tribulation [3.5 years]---->Day of the Lord begins with the 'rapture'----->the wrath of God--->new heavens and new earth--->millenium begins.
We are told we will suffer tribulation but we are also told we are not appointed to wrath, which is why we are removed on the day of the Lord, the second coming of Christ as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, also known as the day of the Lord's wrath.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.--1 Thess 5:9
The Spirit on all Flesh
THE Prophet Joel, in foretelling the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the church at Pentecost, explained that "afterward" God's Spirit would be poured out upon all flesh. (Joel 2:28,29; Acts 2:17,18) The foretold pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon the Lord's servants and handmaidens and "afterward" upon "all flesh" is stated in the prophecy in the reverse order of the sequence in which it actually occurs. This was probably designed by the Lord to obscure the great truth of his future blessing for the world until the time neared for it to be realized.
In pouring out his Holy Spirit upon the church of this Gospel Age, God arranged that the first to be benefited were the Jewish believers at that time. Subsequently, it was also poured out upon the Gentiles who desired to be in harmony with and to serve God. The Scriptures indicate that this same sequence will be observed by the Lord in the pouring out of his Spirit upon all flesh. The first to have the opportunity to be blessed by his Holy Spirit will be the re-gathered Israelites in Palestine.—Ezek. 39:27-29
One of the important functions of the Holy Spirit during the Gospel Age has been to enlighten the Lord's people with respect to the will and ways of the Lord. The same will be true during the kingdom age, when a knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea.—Isa. 11:9
During the Gospel Age the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit reaches the Lord's people through the prophets, the apostles, and our Lord Jesus, as their combined teachings have been made available through the written Word. So, during the Millennial Age, the influence of God's Spirit will reach the people through God's representatives, who will also be the representatives of the spiritual phase of the kingdom; namely, the Ancient Worthies.—Matt. 8:11; Micah 4:2
The Scriptures assure us that the Lord will, during the Millennial Age, communicate his truth to the people, and it will be by this means that they will have the opportunity to learn of and to serve him. (Zeph. 3:9) One of the symbols used to illustrate this thought is the opening of a book.—Isa. 29:18,24
The Holy Spirit of truth during the Gospel Age reveals the opportunity of entering into a covenant of sacrifice with the Lord. But the Millennial Age will not be an age of sacrifice. Then, beginning with Israel, the people will have the opportunity of entering into the New Covenant, a covenant in which the law of God will be written in their hearts and in their inward parts. (Jer. 31:31-34) When all the willing and obedient shall have entered fully into this New Covenant, the teaching of the Lord will no longer be necessary, for all shall then know him, whom to know properly, and to obey, will mean life eternal.
One of the witnesses, or evidences of possessing the Holy Spirit now, is the persecution which comes to those who let their light shine. But this will not be true in the Millennium. Then the righteous will flourish, and the Lord will take away the rebuke of his people from off the whole earth.—Ps. 72:7; Isa. 25:8
http://www.dawnbible.com/1961/6107tbs4.htm
And a warning about the deception... :upset:
A NEW Anointing- Pentecost
the spirit being poured out on ALL Flesh
How will this all this be accomplished? It will not be reached by dialogue alone there must be a spiritual counterpart, a spiritual mechanism to this unity. A NEW PENTECOST, an experience all can share in. In 1966, the Pope prayed to the Holy Spirit for the success of the Ecumenical Council, Vatican II: "Renew Thy wonders in our day, as by a new Pentecost. Grant to Thy Church that, being of one mind and steadfast in prayer with Mary, the Mother of Jesus, and following the lead of blessed Peter, it may advance the reign of our Divine Savior, the reign of truth and justice, the reign of love and peace. Amen."
Considering that the Pope was known as the great ecumenist (the new will continue to this goal) to bring religions in unity by interfaith dialogue meetings (The Pope had 7 global prayer meetings united with the various different religions.) The charismatic renewal was supposedly the result of an outpouring that brought the two opposing parties in Christiandom together. In the mid 60s, when the NEW Pentecost had spread, Leon Cardinal Suenens said, "The drive toward unity among Christians seems irreversible; we may hope that the hour is not far off. . . . We are permitted to be confident with hope founded in God and in the progress of theology that the third millennium will see the restoration of full unity and full communion."
This new outpouring is global in its effect today. It has resulted in a "progress of theology." promoted by the Latter Rain movement and other aberrations. Since this NEW Pentecost has spread, the walls have come down in the denominations and new associations with Rome were birthed; but there is more to this unity than just Rome.
Where is this going? To unify with all religions. So many are already saying that God is pouring out his spirit on all flesh, it is the same God and His Spirit that is bringing us into unity with all people of all faiths. This is a counterfeit outpouring that has nothing to do with the real one that will take place in the tribulation period. Just as the false Christ comes before the true one, a false peace, unity and worship will also take place. But to make this work there must be a false outpouring that will lead the world into its false sense of security and peace.
New Ager Barbara Hubbard wrote about the Teaching from the Inner Christ, and summarizes what many in the new age movement have been "feeling" how the human race will soon experience a day of 'Planetary Pentecost.' Hubbard's 'Christ, communicated to her 'the Planetary Smile is another name for the Planetary Pentecost. When enough of us share a common thought [paradigm shift) of our oneness with God, Spirit will be poured out on all flesh paying attention' (p. 79).
The new age Christ revealed a "Planetary Pentecost" to Barbara Marx Hubbard where there is to be a "quantum leap" in the evolution of mankind: "At the moment of cosmic contact, I will appear to you both through inner experience and through external communication on your mass media."
This is the very way Maitreya (the new age Christ figure) has claimed he would be made known to the world—it's called the EMERGENCE. With the spiritual landscape changing in the world and the church it sets the stage for the unveiling. As the religions unite in the their common beliefs and goals, essentially a new spirituality emerges.
Yes, there us a plan unfolding that is not known to many, but some are aware of the goal and are working towards it. "Co-operation is another word for Unity. Unity and co-operation are the springboards to the future and the guarantee of achievement for all men. Great reservoirs of power lie untapped within humanity, waiting for the magic of co-operation to unleash. (The Master--)
"My friends, I am here with you to show you the way to Peace, which is the way to God" (Message No. 135 February 2nd 1982). Here Maitreya says to make peace brings one to God. Maitreya says if we will accept His advice then we are on the threshold of an era of peace and goodwill. Interestingly Maitreya claims " I am the Prince of Peace... I am in your hearts as love... By pure love man will achieve... By my help all shall be achieved" (Message No. 100)
Whether its Maitreya or another saying this, it is all the same – they are working toward the same goal. All are working to present a united front against the evils of the world. They believe in unity of all who name the name of Christ-regardless of doctrine or practice. This has allowed for non-offensive elements of Scripture to remain, while eliminating the most essential doctrines of the Faith for the sake of unity. And the unity they seek is not just with other professing Christians, but with members of all faiths.
In 1991 The Inter-Religious Federation for World Peace (IRFWP) brought the resources of all the world's religions --their sacred teachings, practices, beliefs, and rituals-- to bear on this goal of world peace.
New age promoter Teilhard de Chardin had recognized "surely the solution for which modern mankind is seeking must essentially be exactly the solution which I have come upon.... A general convergence of religions upon a universal Christ who fundamentally satisfies them all: that seems to me the only possible conversion of the world, and the only form, in which a religion of the future can be conceived. (How I Believe, Teilhard de Chardin p.85)
Those who have experienced this new paradigm, which is an influence of "the spirit poured out on all flesh" become filled with a mission. At the same time they become blind to the truth and are zealous for the lie. Becoming emissaries for the new paradigm, they now have a purpose and mission in life, convinced that it is God behind it.
".... Dr. Philip Potter, WCC General Secretary, quoted from a 1969 WCC Central Committee directive as follows: "We call upon the churches to move beyond charity, grants and traditional programming to relevant and sacrificial action leading to new relationships of dignity and justice among all men and to become THE AGENTS FOR THE RADICAL RECONSTRUCTION OF SOCIETY." The term agents of change would be more apropos. The New age agenda is to bring transformation using terms and words that many are unacquainted with so they will accept the concepts and practices of the new age movement.
"Men and women of faith are a strong influence on group and individual conduct. As teachers and guides, you can be powerful agents for change. You can inspire people to new levels of commitment and public service. You can help bridge the chasm of ignorance, fear and misunderstanding. You can set an example of interfaith dialogue and cooperation." (Kofi Annan http://interfaithchristian.org/)
Here we have the mention of change agents coming from the head of the UN, its intent is to unite.
The "agents of change" are in every sector of our society and we need to be aware of their procedures and goals. Their influence becomes very evident in the spiritual arena especially when it enters the church; for the church has not entertained the same goals or methods they have, until recently.
The new age movement has their agents of transformational change throughout society. There are also change agents assigned to transform churches from within. Rick Warren as well as others in this new paradigm call pastors/leaders "change agents." It should become evident what this means when we hear Rick Warren who has one of the largest churches define it. His pastor-training program welcomes Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women. "I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?" ("This evangelist has a 'Purpose," by Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY, 7/21/2003)
Are Catholics, Jews and Mormons other denominations- or are they other religions? Here is the subtle change of terms when religions are called denominations and then we are told not let denominational differences divide us. By subtlety these new concepts are introduce into the church. They move us over into a new paradigm, of which unity is an essential component.
To bring about this change Biblical terms need to be redefined. The idea is synergy (a new age term), it is being used to combine that of the past with that of the future into our present. Those who run with the vision believe this synergism will effect "increase." Anyone who opposes the mega mentality are often identified as resistors to the change that is coming over this whole planet (which includes the portion of the church that has experienced the paradigm along with others). those that do not want to go along with the changes are identified as those who hold onto traditions that are passé.
There are many who have become change agents inside the church that are willing to accept a more lenient and more view Tony Campolo spoke in May of 1988 at the National Counsel of Churches gathering; it was reported that his message suggested that standing firm on absolutes and vehemently resisting error were tantamount to "doing the devil's work." He said that Hindu pacifist Ghandi "was more Christian than most Christians."
Can a man who rejected Christ be more Christian than those who are Christian? Obviously Campolo's definition may be different from Scripture. Tony Campolo agrees with the New Age concept that Christ mystically indwells every human being. "We want to convince the whole human race that there is a God who established the infinite value of every person, who mystically dwells in each person....(Anthony Campolo a Reasonable Faith Responding to Secularism p.59).
Campolo had praised Catholic nun Mother Teresa. (Reported in The Christian World Report, August 1990.) Ecumenists will often use Mother Teresa as an example of living out the Christian faith. She is the supreme example of doing good works that a Christian ecumenist can find. Yet they disregard her doctrine about the gospel accepting other religions as acceptable paths to God; worshipped Mary and did works to be saved as the Roman Catholic system teaches. It's not how much or how great a work some one is doing that counts, especially if the motivation is to earn ones salvation. Mother Teresas work was because of her Catholicism.
As an example: Question: Today it does not seem that the Catholic Church is trying to convert anymore. I know that John Paul II is saying now that those of other religions are saved. You do not believe they are lost anyway, right?
Answer: No, they are not lost. They are saved according to their faith, you know. If they believe whatever they believe, that is their salvation." (An interview with a Catholic nun, "Sister" Ann, who worked in Kathmandu, Nepal, with "Mother" Teresa's organization Missionaries of Charity. Conducted 11/23/84 at the Pashupati Temple.)
Does God approve of other religions when he has revealed the only way is through Christ? This would make him a liar. Yet the Scriptures say in opposition "let God be true and every man a liar."
Robert Schuller who is the propagator of the seeker friendly church model has offices at his Crystal Cathedral for "Christians and Muslims for Peace." He told Imam Alfred Mohammed of the Muslim American Society on his TV program that, "if he [Schuller] came back in 100 years and found his descendants Muslims, it wouldn't bother him...."
Why wait Mr. Schuller, why not become Muslim now. This is the prevailing attitude of the modernist, the liberals of our day. That there are no absolutes but we can practice anything as long as we are sincere and has good principles.
This is the work of the spirit of our age that has influenced people to be open to all. In The Unity Way of Life, Marcus Bach writes: "You can walk with the Shintoist through his sacred groves, or chant an affirmation with the Hindu on the banks of the Ganges . . . and still be a student of Unity ....As the Christ becomes greater to you in Unity, the Buddha also becomes greater, and the greater the Buddha becomes, the greater the Christ becomes." (The Unity Way of Life, pp. 88-9)
The president of the British Methodist Conference is Inderjit Bhogal, who was raised in the Sikh religion and though he is "captivated by the story of Jesus," he does not reject the Sikh faith as paganism. Bhogal says emphatically, "I am not someone who rejected the Sikh faith when I turned to Christ." He continues to attend Sikh temples and says he feels secure in his heritage. "Others might find it confusing but I am not confused. I am happy to say that I am a disciple of Jesus rooted in the Sikh faith and have a deep respect for the Sikh faith," he said. Like many others today Bhogal is for ecumenism. Bhogal's Ph.D. at Sheffield University focuses on John 14:6, which Bhogal calls "a difficult verse." He is "exploring what this [John 14:6] means in a plural society" (Ecumenical News International, July 6, 1999).
This is what Roman Catholicism has done for centuries, integrating Catholicism with the culture so that people do need to give up anything but only add, and become members of a church. Christian principles and beliefs are conglomerated with others they hold.
The great theme of the new world religion Will be the recognition of the many divine approaches and the continuity of revelation which each of them conveyed,..(Occultist Alice Bailey)
We see this same attitude taking place in the church either by those not abandoning their former religion or adding practices from other religions. Modernists in the church do not believe that personal faith and following in Jesus Christ as God is necessary for eternal salvation. The Christ they are offering is a false ecumenical Christ, a Christ that will embrace all Churches and religions.
The Emergence
Another Christ, Another Way
Regarding the UCS project, "World Scripture: A comparative anthology of sacred texts," URI activist, Bruce Schuman says, "I tend to feel that World Scripture is the beginning of a global database of fundamental spiritual principles that will eventually serve as the foundation for an emerging new global spirituality." Schuman also envisions new prophets, new theology, and a new revival: "It's my feeling that today, the globalization of culture is leading to the transformation of religion, and I do believe that prophets of this new dispensation should and will arise, and will play a role in guiding the world community into a new era of globally enlightened spirituality. ... I anticipate the emergence of a new form of global theology, that is grounded in the classical doctrines of the religions, but which reinterprets them through a common set of principles. ... I am also an advocate of grass-roots spiritual revival, the direct white-lightning mystical connectivity and personal energy-flow that can inspire and heal individuals and entire cultures." (The United Religions Initiative--foundations for a world religion By Lee Penn quoted from the SCP JOURNAL 22:4-23:1)
Cont'd
http://www.letusreason.org/Current66.htm
Cont'd ...
This is accurately evaluating what is taking place.
Alice Bailey, Theosophist and mother of the modern New Age Movement, revealed the plan in her volume, The Externalization of the Hierarchy. She tells of Cabalist agents who would infiltrate the Christian Church to modify its message, while adapting it as a vehicle for the Universal Religion of the 21 Century.
She wrote, "Workers In the field of religion will formulate the universal platform of the new world religion...and will emphasize the unity and the fellowship of the spirit. This group is... a channel for the activities of the Christ, the world Teacher'. The platform of the new world religion will be built by many groups; working under the inspiration of the Christ" (Reappearance of the Masters of Wisdom, pp. 158-159). Certainly this is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible but is another Christ that has power and influence to bring about this goal. A cabalist is someone who is like a Gnostic, a mystic and does not take the literal meanings of words or the intent they are written in. Believe or not, we are watching this take place today.
Lets look at another quote from her "The rule of the churches is over, but not the precepts of Christianity or the example of, the Christ. He is, however, responsible for a newer and more effective presentation of the coming world religion, and for that the churches should prepare..." (Alice Bailey, The Externalisation of the Hierarchy, Lucis Publishing Company: p- 448)
Has the church heeded the coming world religion that we see already formed and gaining acceptance? We must, because they want to change Christianity from within. They want us to join their global union.
The father of the modern new age movement Pierre Teilhard de Chardin said, 'The fate of mankind, as well as of religion, depends upon the emergence of a new faith in the future.' Armed with such a faith, we might find it possible to resanctify the earth." What we are often told that if we unite in environmental concerns we can save our planet and ourselves at the same time, essentially it is all one.
Jesuit priest Pierre Teilhard de Chardin also wrote, "a general convergence of religions upon a universal Christ who ... satisfies them all: that seems to me the only possible conversion of the world, and the only form in which a religion of the future can be conceived. (Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Christianity and Evolution p. 130 (Collins, 1971).
Matthew Fox also says: "Indeed, the birthing of the Cosmic Christ is the purpose of the incarnation... Divinity wants to birth the Cosmic Christ in each and every individual" (Matthew Fox, "The Coming of The Cosmic Christ", p. 122.)
Much like Teilhard de Chardin popular speaker Tony Campolo also says, "That a new humanity will be brought forth from this Christ consciousness in each person" (Anthony Campolo, A reasonable Faith -responding to secularism p.65). Campolo explains, "The difference between a Christian and non-Christian is not that Jesus isn't in the non-Christian--the difference is that the Jesus who is within him is a Jesus to whom he will not surrender his life."(emphasis mine)
So one does not need a spiritual birth for Christ to be in you. And Paul stating to see if Christ indeed dwells in you is moot. Why do we allow men say such things a platform inside the church? This something so basic that every new believer should know. Campolo's books continue to be sold with new age paradigm statement like these in them.
Barbara Marx Hubbard states there will come a time when "the divisions of the religions would be over...We would each know that God is within us...If all who feel we are connected to each other, to nature and to God join in a planetary Pentecost, we shall be transformed in this lifetime. I believe in the peaceful second Comin." (Barbara Marx Hubbard the Armageddon Alternative," p.49 quoted by Brooks Alexander, Vol. 19:2/3, 1995).
One of the ways the New Age movement has influenced the church is by the teaching of self- deification in man, "The recognition of God is the recognition of yourself" (Foundation for Inner Peace, A Course in Miracles, Text, (Foundation for Inner Peace, 1992), p. 147)
The divinity and oneness of humanity is the inspiration in the Course in Miracles and is taught by Neale Walsch in his "new gospel. The solution is: make man equal with God or part of him and we can see each other as equal and good.
The inventor of the seeker friendly church, Robert Schuller has agreed when he stated "the Christ Spirit dwells within everybody whether the person knows it or not" (Possibilities, 1986 summer p.8-12). Christ in you without you knowing it? Why are non Christians and "Christians" saying the same thing?
Pope John Paul II forged the new policy of the Roman Catholic church of whom Mother Theresa followed, he stated "This necessary discernment does not hinder interreligious dialogue. In fact, for many years meetings with the various monastic communities of other religions, marked by cordial friendship, are opening ways for the mutual sharing of other spiritual riches "with regard to prayer and contemplation, faith and ways of searching for God or the Absolute"...the action of Christ and his Spirit is already mysteriously present in all who live sincerely according to their religious convictions..."(Pope John Paul II, Thirteenth Catechesis).
The spirit of our age brings us the universalist view. It is the Devils trump card to annihilate the Christ of the Scripture as unique. This will eventually crush the gospel message. First- by removing Christians in their belief that Christ is (still) the only way; second- He can bring the church to participate in other religions therefore producing the same result that took place with Israel in the past when they accepted other gods, and forms of worship and were subsequently are moved into the position to be judged.
Don't think the Catholic church is out of the loop, their intent has not changed, they want to bring unity to Christiandom by uniting all the churches under the pope. From the Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (Revised edition, 1985): "The Pope is the spiritual father of all Christians ... The Pope is the Shepherd and Teacher of all Christians."
In fact there are those who favor the Pope. During the Pope's visit to Los Angeles in 1987" Schuller said: "It's time for Protestants to go to the shepherd [Pope] and say 'what do we have to do to come home?'" (Calvary Contender 11/15/87). When Schuller was planning for the building of his Crystal Cathedral, he made a special trip to Rome to ask the Pope's blessing on the building plans (Foundation, March-April 1990).
The Vatican will continue to pursue their ecumenical agenda using those who are unstable in their Christian beliefs to unite with their church
The New Unity is now Reality
In 1995, Bishop Swing stated that the world is moving toward "unity in terms of global economy, global media, global ecological system. What is missing is a global soul."
Organizations like the United Religions Initiative, World Fellowship of Inter-religious Councils, World Congress of Faiths, United Nations Spiritual Forum for World Peace Initiative, World Conference on Religion and Peace, International Interfaith Centre, The Temple of Understanding, Millennium World Peace Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders, Peace Council, World Faiths Development Dialogue, World Fellowship of Inter-Religious Councils Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions and many, many others are gathering religions into the new consensus. Representatives from 14 international interfaith organisations, all part of the growing interfaith movement, met in Oxford in March 2001 to discuss more effective communication and cooperation. It continually grows stronger as more join and see the necessity of its plan.
The United Communities of Spirit (UCS), an on-line interfaith network supporting the URI. A UCS document, "A Philosophy of Interfaith Harmony and Unity," states: "We see no need to develop one universal common religion for all of humanity--yet it seems clear to us that the global confluence of religions is, indeed, tending to create a new universal spirituality, that incorporates perspectives and insights from all traditions. ... We are creating a forum for 'unity in diversity' that celebrates the unique merits of each particular approach to the divine energy, yet also provides a way that each of these approaches can be welded into a cohesive common framework."
Unity with diversity is the goal for the new spirituality. The new unity says whether it be Christ, Buddha, Mohammed, Baha'u'llah or Krishna, we are all worshipping manifestations of the same God. As Rosicrucianism states, all are petals on the same flower, no one religion has all the truth. We need each others truths to blossom. Christians are to watch out for those who claim other religions have truths we cam learn from that will enhance our spirituality.
The ultimate aim should be that Judaism, Christianity and all other religions should vanish and give place to one great ethical world religion, the brotherhood of man. (Victor Gollancz, millionaire publisher Malachi Martin, Keys, p. 299.)
"A11 men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. A11 will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself" ('Abdu'1-Baha The Promised Day is Come, p. 126)
No religious group is more ecumenical and intent on seeing a world government then the Bahai's. They have written to the People of the World: "The Great Peace towards which people of good will throughout the centuries have inclined their hearts, of which seers and poets for countless generations have expressed their vision, and for which from age to age the sacred scriptures of mankind have constantly held the promise, is now at long last within the reach of the nations. For the first time in history it is possible for everyone to view the entire planet, with all its myriad diversified peoples, in one perspective. World peace is not only possible, but inevitable. It is the next stage in the evolution of this planet -- in the words of one great thinker, "the planetization of mankind" (A Statement by the Bahai Universal House of Justice).
The planetization is a special term of making global citizens. Planetary Citizens is a New Age activist group committed to stimulate a "planetary consciousness" for the public. New Age advocates believes the solution is "planetization" which is a global solution. This word refers to the unifying of the world into a corporate brotherhood. There are numerous groups working toward this end.
Joseph Cardinal Suenens, recipient of the 1976 Templeton Award for Progress in Religion. "We appeal to the religious communities of the world to inculcate the attitude of planetary citizenship (Leon Joseph Cardinal Suenens, A New Pentecost? 1975, p. 24.)
Shoghi Effendi of the Bahai stated, "The revelation of Baha'u'11ah should be viewed as marking the last and highest stage in the stupendous evolution of man's collective life on this planet. (It marks) the emergence of a world community, the consciousness of world citizenship, the founding of a world civilization and culture." (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 163)
Robert Muller says essentially the same thing The United Nations is the only place on Earth which can give humanity a new sense of direction, a general holistic philosophy and vision of a global, planetary civilization. (My Testament, pp. 8-9) This is why he can say "The UN is the New Genesis. (ibid., p. 7).
Do we find any differences in the various religions matter? Of course it does! Imagine your car is a Ford and needs a water pump repaired, and someone says they have a Toyota water pump they can install. After all, a water pump is a water pump! Ridiculous right? But this is exactly what the new unity is asking us. If your God is a she, a he, or many or an it, that's okay; since they're all the same. All religion's are not the same! All the description's of God from the different religion's have obvious irreconcilable difference's in God's nature, principle's of living and man's relationship to him. There are major contradiction's on the fundamental core beliefs that cannot be overlooked. They all cannot be right with so many contradiction's on God and man's nature.
Our Lord God said: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me, " which means there are other gods we are to reject. Not all religions lead to the same God, the creator of the universe. Acts 4:12 proclaims, "Salvation is found in no other, for there is no other name given under heaven to men by which we must be saved." "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). Interfaith cannot be from God because it destroys the claims of Christ that concentrate on who He is and what He has done. So if Interfaith is not of God (the one who inspired the Scripture) then who is it from?
This whole movement is in opposition Christ, and it is paving the way for the most horrific deception ever perpetrated on the human race since the first deception to Adam and Eve. We need to take off our sunglasses and see it for what it really is.
Re: A NEW Anointing - Pentecost (both posts)
Molly, I just printed these two posts for more careful reading, but wanted to reply today as I will be away from my computer for a day or two... and then again, maybe not... plans around here change so quickly.
Anyway, I've appreciated your posts on current events... and believe that what you are sharing will indeed take place... on the physical level (I believe you say "literal" level??) I have an interest in all of the current events because I believe they are an indication of what is happening on a spiritual level and have wondered just how much of a connection there might be between the two (Physical and spiritual) by spiritual, I mean what is going on in the churches (all who believe in Jesus and "maintain" they follow His teachings)
God is so good... through your endeavors to bring reliable information to Tentmaker, He really suppplied a great deal of information of just what is going on in the churches... thank you so much, Molly, I truly appreciate your posts... and, of course, your scripture references are always filed in my treasure box...
Briefly, I attended a meeting in St. Louis in the l960's after Vatican II Council's documents were printed. tell you more later...
also during that same time period I was attending a Christian Liberal Arts College and became familiar with Teil de Chardin's writings...
and one of my best friends (just received Christmas greetings from her) was in Belgium for about six years in the early 1970's where she was part of the housekeeping staff for Cardinal Suenens... we had much to talk about....
anyway, for now... God bless your efforts.
I remember the movie "A River Runs Through It," where the father kept telling his young son when writing a piece...."Do it again....only shorter." I learned much. :dsunny:
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2012, 08:00:21 PM
The Spirit on all Flesh
THE Prophet Joel, in foretelling the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the church at Pentecost, explained that "afterward" God's Spirit would be poured out upon all flesh. (Joel 2:28,29; Acts 2:17,18) The foretold pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon the Lord's servants and handmaidens and "afterward" upon "all flesh" is stated in the prophecy in the reverse order of the sequence in which it actually occurs. This was probably designed by the Lord to obscure the great truth of his future blessing for the world until the time neared for it to be realized.
In pouring out his Holy Spirit upon the church of this Gospel Age, God arranged that the first to be benefited were the Jewish believers at that time. Subsequently, it was also poured out upon the Gentiles who desired to be in harmony with and to serve God. The Scriptures indicate that this same sequence will be observed by the Lord in the pouring out of his Spirit upon all flesh. The first to have the opportunity to be blessed by his Holy Spirit will be the re-gathered Israelites in Palestine.—Ezek. 39:27-29
One of the important functions of the Holy Spirit during the Gospel Age has been to enlighten the Lord's people with respect to the will and ways of the Lord. The same will be true during the kingdom age, when a knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea.—Isa. 11:9
During the Gospel Age the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit reaches the Lord's people through the prophets, the apostles, and our Lord Jesus, as their combined teachings have been made available through the written Word. So, during the Millennial Age, the influence of God's Spirit will reach the people through God's representatives, who will also be the representatives of the spiritual phase of the kingdom; namely, the Ancient Worthies.—Matt. 8:11; Micah 4:2
The Scriptures assure us that the Lord will, during the Millennial Age, communicate his truth to the people, and it will be by this means that they will have the opportunity to learn of and to serve him. (Zeph. 3:9) One of the symbols used to illustrate this thought is the opening of a book.—Isa. 29:18,24
The Holy Spirit of truth during the Gospel Age reveals the opportunity of entering into a covenant of sacrifice with the Lord. But the Millennial Age will not be an age of sacrifice. Then, beginning with Israel, the people will have the opportunity of entering into the New Covenant, a covenant in which the law of God will be written in their hearts and in their inward parts. (Jer. 31:31-34) When all the willing and obedient shall have entered fully into this New Covenant, the teaching of the Lord will no longer be necessary, for all shall then know him, whom to know properly, and to obey, will mean life eternal.
One of the witnesses, or evidences of possessing the Holy Spirit now, is the persecution which comes to those who let their light shine. But this will not be true in the Millennium. Then the righteous will flourish, and the Lord will take away the rebuke of his people from off the whole earth.—Ps. 72:7; Isa. 25:8
http://www.dawnbible.com/1961/6107tbs4.htm
Peter simply said, "This is that which was prophesied by the prophet Joel;".
He did not dispensationalize it in anyway.
There is no new anointing.
It is the same anointing that always was, again, as Peter said concerning the Gentiles coming into the kingdom,- "and the Lord bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Ghost as He did unto us in the beginning".
Pentecost was the beginning. God will be pouring out of His Spirit upon acceptable sacrifices and anointing them with the oil (remember the wise virgins) all the way until the end of the age and beyond. All that God does is by the Spirit.
When the "Spirit of the Lord departs"(Ichabod) you can tell, because all that is left is wrangling about words and attempts to intellectually encompass the gospel. IMO,the gospel, without the Spirit, is just words of mens wisdom, and a topic of wrangling jangling disputes between religionists.
If the Pope or some other new agers co-opt the language of the scriptures they are, as Jesus said, "masquerading" and IMO this only attests to the fact that we need the Spirit of Truth to continually lift up Jesus and not get carried away with eschatology........ uniting around the simplicity of the cross of Christ, His Lordship and impending return, and the good news to all people- the ultimate reconciliation of all things. :o)
When you see all these things begin to happen, REJOICE!, For your redemption draws near. :o)
"........because all that is left is wrangling about words and attempts to intellectually encompass the gospel. IMO,the gospel, without the Spirit, is just words of mens wisdom, and a topic of wrangling jangling disputes between religionists." EW
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
EW said, "IMO,the gospel, without the Spirit, is just words of mens wisdom, and a topic of wrangling jangling disputes between religionists."
It had to be men and not the Spirit that would dare declare that it's "Good News"(gospel) that God will eternally torture those that don't love him the way He wants them to.
That's making good news into the opposite - bad news. In fact, facing eternal torment is such bad news that most would ask that God had never given them life to begin with.
Picture this: A 22 year old standing before God. "Let's see, I was born with a disease, physically and verbally abused all through my childhood by "christian" parents and I was hit by a truck that ran a red light and burned a horrible death. Now you tell me that I'm going to burn like that for all eternity? Wow, thanks for that "good news"
Incredibly, that IS the good news to the average churchgoer - they just refuse to admit it or think about it while they pray for that job promotion or the building fund so they can be more comfortable.
Jesus said to give our money to the poor and widows. Statistically, more than 90% of all money recieved by a church goes to the building, the electric, water, insurance, and church staff - so basically, the money they give (90% of it) is going back to themselves.
Do I sound critical? Only because I think things should be done the way they did it in the new testament...
Now there is a radical point of view....imo. :dsunny:
Interesting prophecy verses
Zech 14:5-9
5...You will flee as your ancestors did when the earthquake struck in the time of King Uzziah of Judah. The Lord my God will come, bringing all the angels with him.
6 When that time comes, there will no longer be cold or frost, 7 nor any darkness. There will always be daylight, even at nighttime. When this will happen is known only to the Lord.
8 When that day comes, fresh water will flow from Jerusalem, half of it to the Dead Sea and the other half to the Mediterranean. It will flow all year long, in the dry season as well as the wet. 9 Then the Lord will be king over all the earth; everyone will worship him as God and know him by the same name.
wasn't it King Uzziah that made unlawful offerings to God? not worship Him aright?
Uzziah's story - he got in trouble for bypassing the priests
2 chronicles chapter 26 11-21
11-15 On the military side, Uzziah had a well-prepared army ready to fight. They were organized by companies under the direction of Jeiel the secretary, Maaseiah the field captain, and Hananiah of the general staff. The roster of family leaders over the fighting men accounted for 2,600. Under them were reinforcement troops numbering 307,000, with 500 of them on constant alert—a strong royal defense against any attack. Uzziah had them well-armed with shields, spears, helmets, armor, bows, and slingshots. He also installed the latest in military technology on the towers and corners of Jerusalem for shooting arrows and hurling stones. He became well known for all this—a famous king. Everything seemed to go his way.
16-18 But then the strength and success went to his head. Arrogant and proud, he fell. One day, contemptuous of God, he walked into The Temple of God like he owned it and took over, burning incense on the Incense Altar. The priest Azariah, backed up by eighty brave priests of God, tried to prevent him. They confronted Uzziah: "You must not, you cannot do this, Uzziah—only the Aaronite priests, especially consecrated for the work, are permitted to burn incense. Get out of God's Temple; you are unfaithful and a disgrace!"
19-21 But Uzziah, censer in hand, was already in the middle of doing it and angrily rebuffed the priests. He lost his temper; angry words were exchanged—and then, even as they quarreled, a skin disease appeared on his forehead. As soon as they saw it, the chief priest Azariah and the other priests got him out of there as fast as they could. He hurried out—he knew that God then and there had given him the disease. Uzziah had his skin disease for the rest of his life and had to live in quarantine; he was not permitted to set foot in The Temple of God. His son Jotham, who managed the royal palace, took over the government of the country
2Ki 15:34 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD: he did according to all that his father Uzziah had done.
2Ch 26:3 Sixteen years old was Uzziah when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and two years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Jecoliah of Jerusalem.
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Quote5...You will flee as your ancestors did when the earthquake struck in the time of King Uzziah of Judah. The Lord my God will come, bringing all the angels with him.
--Zech 14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, -- Jude 1:14
"saints"G40
ἅγιος
hagioshag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): -
(most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. Its rider was named Faithful and True, for he judges fairly and wages a righteous war. 12 His eyes were like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him that no one understood except himself. 13 He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed him on white horses. --Rev 19
Quote6 When that time comes, there will no longer be cold or frost, 7 nor any darkness. There will always be daylight, even at nighttime. When this will happen is known only to the Lord.
22 I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon, for the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its light. --Rev 21
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.--Mat 24:36
Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Quote8 When that day comes, fresh water will flow from Jerusalem, half of it to the Dead Sea and the other half to the Mediterranean. It will flow all year long, in the dry season as well as the wet. 9 Then the Lord will be king over all the earth; everyone will worship him as God and know him by the same name.
The man brought me back to the entrance of the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar.
--Eze 41:7
Isaiah 30:25 In the day of great slaughter, when the towers fall, streams of water will flow on every high mountain and every lofty hill.
Joel 3:18 "In that day the mountains will drip new wine, and the hills will flow with milk; all the ravines of Judah will run with water. A fountain will flow out of the Lord's house and will water the valley of acacias.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.--Heb 8:11, Jer 31:34
1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.--Hab 2:14
Isaiah 40:5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 30, 2012, 05:39:33 PM
Interesting prophecy verses
Zech 14:5-9
5...You will flee as your ancestors did when the earthquake struck in the time of King Uzziah of Judah. The Lord my God will come, bringing all the angels with him.
6 When that time comes, there will no longer be cold or frost, 7 nor any darkness. There will always be daylight, even at nighttime. When this will happen is known only to the Lord.
8 When that day comes, fresh water will flow from Jerusalem, half of it to the Dead Sea and the other half to the Mediterranean. It will flow all year long, in the dry season as well as the wet. 9 Then the Lord will be king over all the earth; everyone will worship him as God and know him by the same name.
Glory!!!
so good intentions is Not enough. Proper order very important. In this spiritual warfare..not waiting on
on Jesus Christ/Holy spirit..can result in spiritual leprosy..Pride,arrogance......
this especially timely in regard to anything to do with the 'ark' and the change of priestly garments.....
when King Uzziah died[put him to death all of us/that this spirit not be in us/spiritual leprosy]
so that they LORD sitting upon His throne..be HIGH AND LIFTED UP....and HIS TRAIN[which,
by the way,means drag[as drag all to Christ] fill the temple.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 30, 2012, 06:30:34 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 30, 2012, 05:39:33 PM
Interesting prophecy verses
Zech 14:5-9
5...You will flee as your ancestors did when the earthquake struck in the time of King Uzziah of Judah. The Lord my God will come, bringing all the angels with him.
6 When that time comes, there will no longer be cold or frost, 7 nor any darkness. There will always be daylight, even at nighttime. When this will happen is known only to the Lord.
8 When that day comes, fresh water will flow from Jerusalem, half of it to the Dead Sea and the other half to the Mediterranean. It will flow all year long, in the dry season as well as the wet. 9 Then the Lord will be king over all the earth; everyone will worship him as God and know him by the same name.
Glory!!!
Glory!
let us cleanse ourselves of all pride arrogance..that we be counted worthy to lift HIM HIGH........
......otherwise..we are like Miriam..stricken with leprosy..and outside the Holy camp for seven days..
and the Israelites could procede no further. in the wilderness..until she was accepted back in
humble ourselves unto God,Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit..............
Quote from: sheila on December 30, 2012, 07:11:02 PM
let us cleanse ourselves of all pride arrogance..that we be counted worthy to lift HIM HIGH........
......otherwise..we are like Miriam..stricken with leprosy..and outside the Holy camp for seven days..
and the Israelites could procede no further. in the wilderness..until she was accepted back in
humble ourselves unto God,Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit..............
Amen
What happened here? Dec. 30th-Jan.5 silence nada zilch? Just a wondering :sigh:
Maybe we're disappointed the Mayans were wrong? :laughing7:
The Mayans wrong or the interpretation of there calendar wrong.
Just wondering, do the majority of religions and historical believe systems,
have an end time scenario.
'You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.'
--Bob Dylan
Quote from: jabcat on January 06, 2013, 07:20:10 AM
Maybe we're disappointed the Mayans were wrong? :laughing7:
:laugh: That's it! :LH:
So lets party like ther's no tomaya........ :doh:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 06, 2013, 03:55:21 PM
So lets party like ther's no tomaya........ :doh:
I'll bring the dip! :gimmefive:
O sing unto the Lord a new song: sing unto the Lord, all the earth.
2 Sing unto the Lord, bless his name; shew forth Y'shû‛âh [his salvation] from day to day.
3 Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.
4 For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens.
6 Honour and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.
7 Give unto the Lord, O ye kindreds of the people, give unto the Lord glory and strength.
8 Give unto the Lord the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.
9 O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
--Psa 96
Now there is some prophecy! :dsunny:
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. :dsunny: :happyclap:
I find this a very interesting theory. This researcher claims that Yuya who was buried in the valley of kings is the Biblical Joseph. He started his research when he saw one verse in the Bible, where Joseph is telling his newly reunited brothers about his relationship to Pharoah.
So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt. Gen 45:8
The researcher claims that 'a father to Pharoah' is a title, and Joseph received this title when Pharoah married Joseph's daughter. He claims Yuya is not an Egyptian name. It is a foreign name. And in the names of foreigners is found the God whom they worship. In this case, the ya in Yuya relates to the God Yah.
Yuyah is the grandfather of Akhenaton, who is the first Pharoah to worship a monotheistic God. But, there's more. This researcher postulates that Akhenaton is Moses. And, that the famous rod of Moses was actually the rod of Pharoah, identifying himself as a former Pharoah of Egypt which explains why Moses was so easily able to be received into the court of the Pharoah who eventually allowed the Israelites to leave Egypt.
[If Akhenaton was not Moses, he was most certainly related to him if Yuya is Joseph.]
"Stranger in the Valley of Kings"
"Was Yuya the Biblical Joseph? In the Cairo Museum resides the remarkably well-preserved mummy of the Grand Vizier Yuya, who served under two 18th Dynasty Pharaohs, Thutmosis IV and Amenhotep III, in the middle of the 14th Century BCE. Yuya and his wife, Thuya, are the only non-royal persons buried among the Pharaohs in the Valley of the Kings, the New Kingdom's famous royal burial ground. Prior to the discovery of the boy king Tutankhamun's fabled tomb in 1923, the tomb of Yuya and Thuya was the only almost-intact burial found in the Valley of the Kings. Yuya is, in fact, the Biblical patriarch Joseph. Yuya matches up with the Biblical Joseph in virtually every particular. And the recent DNA study published in the Journal of the AMA 2/17/10 shows that Yuya's genes were represented throughout the Royal Family to the end of the dynasty, making his family, the Israelites, very closely related to the Royal Family during the last four generations of the 18th Dynasty. And his son, Aye was the very last Pharaoh of that dynasty."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKqG--7zFkA
That's an interesting theory Molly, but remember that Joseph requested that his mummy/bones be carried up to the new homeland in Canaan, so it's unlikely that Yuya is Joseph. David Rohl has much to say about Joseph in his book Pharaohs and Kings and even gives photos and diagrams of Joseph's palace, an odd palace for Egypt, as it was a typically Syrian design. It's like why Rameses the Great can not be the Pharaoh of the Exodus, simply because his mummy rests in a museum, and the Pharaoh of the Exodus was drowned and lost.
13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
Jesus is the truth of |GOD
Amen, Daj!
I believe you're suggesting the link/theory is part of the NWO Molly? Perhaps part of, at least leading up to, the world being judged in truth and righteousness?
---------------
I was born and raised an orphan
in a land that once was free
in a land that poured its love out on the moon
and I grew up in the shadows
of your silos filled with grain
but you never helped to fill my empty spoon
and when I was ten you murdered law
with courtroom politics
and you learned to make a lie sound just like truth
but I know you better now
and I don't fall for all your tricks
and you've lost the one advantage of my youth
you kill a black man at midnight
just for talking to your daughter
then you make his wife your mistress
and you leave her without water
and the sheet you wear upon your face
is the sheet your children sleep on
at every meal you say a prayer
you don't believe but still you keep on
and your money says in God we trust
but it's against the law to pray in school
you say we beat the Russians to the moon
and I say you starved your children to do it
you are far across the ocean
but the war is not your own
and while you're winning theirs
you're gonna lose the one at home
do you really think the only way
to bring about the peace
is to sacrifice your children
and kill all your enemies
the politicians all make speeches
while the news men all take note
and they exaggerate the issues
as they shove them down our throats
is it really up to them
whether this country sinks or floats
well I wonder who would lead us
if none of us would vote
well my phone is tapped and my lips are chapped
from whispering through the fence
you know every move I make
or is that just coincidence
well you try to make my way of life
a little less like jail
if I promise to make tapes and slides
and send them through the mail
and your money says in God we trust
but it's against the law to pray in school
you say we beat the Russians to the moon
and I say you starved your children to do it
you say all men are equal all men are brothers
then why are the rich more equal than others
don't ask me for the answer I've only got one
that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son
Larry Norman, I believe his last concert before he passed from heart disease about 5 years ago; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCzfrwDER0o
AND ANOTHER SON OF GOD FINISHES HIS COURSE AND ENTERS INTO REST....
Quote from: sheila on January 12, 2013, 10:47:57 PM
AND ANOTHER SON OF GOD FINISHES HIS COURSE AND ENTERS INTO REST....
:thumbsup: Amen.
Jabcat, many, many thanks for providing the lyrics of this very powerful, profound song... I don't do youtube ...
Thanks Sheila, it's always great to be reminded that there is LIFE after this sometimes very painful life on earth.
You're welcome, glad you "enjoyed" it.
IMO, one of the most powerful lyricists of my generation. He lived a sad, hard life. "Crucified" by the "church". Still much to minister to us, though absent from the body, at home with the Lord.
Have you ever heard someone say, 'I wish people would WAKE UP!"
Well, youtube has put together a collage of people saying they are awake. Oddly enough, the movie has a somewhat silly start and I immediately fell asleep. I slept through the whole movie. I dreamt the whole time, too. I dreamt I was in the street with a large group of people and we were all watching the movie together. I was in the front row so they had me run the movie camera. And, pretty soon, we were also each giving our own testimony. It was wonderful being together with such a large group of awake people. So, I don't know if you can make it through this movie awake, but it's great to watch in your sleep!
Oh, and...
"I am awake. I have been awake since the Oklahoma City bombing, 1995."
"Awake! Awake! Clothe yourself with strength, you arm of the LORD! Awake, as in days gone by, as in generations of long ago. Was it not you who split apart Rehob, who pierced that sea monster through?
--Isa 51:9
"I'm Awake"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20a7aoPA5E0
Oh, my...
Testing...1....2....3....
:umnick:
Updated: 8:50 p.m. Tuesday, May 22, 2012 | Posted: 4:42 p.m. Tuesday, May 22, 2012
Emergency school drill has students scared for their lives
Parents are angry; school district defends drill
By Ric Dupont
Socorro Independent School District
EL PASO, Texas —
The Socorro Independent School District stands behind its decision to simulate an act of terrorism without warning teachers, parents or students.
At 8:30 a.m. Tuesday morning, the students and teachers at Eastlake High School were told to vacate the hallways and lock down in their classrooms. According to students and parents, gunshots and screams were heard. The SWAT team was seen entering the school.
Stephanie Belcher has a 15-year-old son enrolled in Eastlake. She said she got a text message from her son that scared her.
"He said, 'I'm not kidding. There's gunshots and people screaming and we were locked in a storage closet,'" Belcher said.
SISD's Assistant Superintendent, Pat O'Neill, said the fact that only the principal of the school was warned was a necessary part of the plan.
"It's an active shooter drill," O'Neill said. "We do this every now and then. If you warn too many people then the simulation is not effective."
"These kids thought that their classmates were being killed and that they could be next," Belcher said. "There's no excuse for that."
"I'd rather them be upset with us now instead of something happening and we're not prepared," O'Neill said. "Then people are going to ask questions like, "Why weren't you prepared?'"
"I went to school in California and I don't remember them shaking the building when we had an earthquake drill," Belcher said.
Eastlake freshman Rudy Soto said the drill was too realistic.
"It was pretty scary," Soto said. "Even the teachers got scared."
Soto said he almost experienced a full-blown asthma attack when he heard the gunshots.
O'Neill said the drill was kept away from kids with special needs. He also said that next time the district will try and do a better job of informing parents.
http://www.kfoxtv.com/news/news/emergency-school-drill-has-students-scared-their-l/nPB8T/
The students and teaches were terrified, and to my mind that makes the drill a terrorist act by definition. "We have met the enemy, and they are us." :doh:
Every time an aberration occurs, we declare it "the new norm". So now all children must grow up "trained to expect terror", when actually, as horrifying as these kinds of events are, the odds of them happening to a child are much less than that of a child being hit by lightning, or killed by a car driven by a drunk, or killed by a bacterial or viral infection contracted in a hospital.
Why isnt President Obama touring the country speaking about lightning safety, or drunk drivers, or inferior hospital care for poor children?
Just not got the press value I guess.
Why? Problem > Reaction > Solution.
When governments want to accomplish something, they create an already-prepared problem, propose an already-prepared reaction, and then reach the already-prepared solution.
In order to steal an already agreed upon amount of tax money :o)
Every year, 125,000 americans are killed by taking medication in the exact way
the Doctor prescribed it.
When will the president try banish prescription drugs??
That for sure is not going to happen. Why?
Because just like guns, they do much more good than harm.
Why hasn't anything been said about the guns the shooter used were already illegal?
Because then it would show that criminals will always have guns Does anyone believe
the average nutcase thinks, "Well, I was going to go shoot up a school and kill as many as I could but then I remembered it was against the law so I just went on ahead to my regular job."
Every shooter has been on antidepressants which have as a side effect violence and suicidal tendencies.
Dead you are right that 125000 are killed from prescribed meds. But those numbers have been shown to be only 10% of actual incidences. (All iatrogenic injury is reported at only 10%). With the current numbers that are reported, medical injury is the fourth leading cause of death in the US. With the actual numbers iatrogenic injury(medical error) is the number one cause of death in the US. In 10 years more people will be killed by modern medicine than all of the people killed in the wars America has been in COMBINED.
This is not a knock at any doctor. I believe the vast majority are ethical and caring people. It's just that they are selling a product that they have been lied to about too. And I'm not saying there is no good out of modern medicine. But there is a real problem and if the govt wants to save children they should stop with the wholesale assault on their body that starts during the birth process.
A friend sent me this link and it's a very good eye opener on the gun issue! http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/why-not-renew-the-assault-weapons-ban-well-ill-tell-you/
And here is an eye opening one on psychotropic drugs!! (and violence) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/967/364/876/demand-federal-investigation-into-psychiatric-drugs-school-shootings/
these drugs are not called 'hypnotics' for nothing..they make the person 'very suggestible" I have wittnessed this
in my own grand-daughter.
Quote from: sheila on January 18, 2013, 06:46:54 PM
these drugs are not called 'hypnotics' for nothing..they make the person 'very suggestible" I have wittnessed this
in my own grand-daughter.
It's to make children more receptive to TV "programming," which is a sort of soft-core MK Ultra thing, I suppose. I watch little TV for that reason.
EXACTLY...........she was sent to DOC because she and friends..in copying a tv show...put a womans patio furniture
in her pool........
I saw a film in Psychology class where they showed kids that learned and imitated what they saw on TV when they were as young as toddlers. This is good in one way i.e. they learn faster (about 65%) than kids that didn't see a video about what was to be learned. It was bad in that they imitated ALL the behavior and we all know how rampant TV is with sex, violence and everyone acting like there is no God. You almost have to back to movies in the 50's to actually see a person on TV or people discussing God in relation to what is happening.
you said that right ded2. when my daughter was 3 1/2 yrs old she would take all her clothes out of the drawer and put them in a
pile in the middle of the floor...then she sprinkled a whole large can of pepper all over them :dontknow:. I only found out
later that she got it from a 'smurf' cartoon...I gues the pepper was the 'majic' powder.
I also as a child tried to 'fly' with an umbrella of the roof :Chinscratch: why are we so suggestible ? naivete" :dontknow:
'
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 18, 2013, 06:48:41 AM
Why? Problem > Reaction > Solution.
When governments want to accomplish something, they create an already-prepared problem, propose an already-prepared reaction, and then reach the already-prepared solution.
Hit the nail on the head with that one!!!!
Quote from: sheila on January 18, 2013, 10:35:10 PM
you said that right ded2. when my daughter was 3 1/2 yrs old she would take all her clothes out of the drawer and put them in a
pile in the middle of the floor...then she sprinkled a whole large can of pepper all over them :dontknow:. I only found out
later that she got it from a 'smurf' cartoon...I gues the pepper was the 'majic' powder.
I also as a child tried to 'fly' with an umbrella of the roof :Chinscratch: why are we so suggestible ? naivete" :dontknow:
'
My five year old second cousin was singing along to that pop stars Ke$has latest hit "We are gonna die young"
:sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
Then I saw the video to this song.
Orgies/foul sex scenes check.
Satanic symbolism check.
Hatred for Authority check.
Inverted crosses check.
Wolf Scenes that refer to bestiality check.
My five year old second cousin watched this in the middle of the day.... :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
This is prophecy?
"Why? Problem > Reaction > Solution.
When governments want to accomplish something, they create an already-prepared problem, propose an already-prepared reaction, and then reach the already-prepared solution."
This is an informed human with full capacity for logic. Of course, this is but my opinion on something that is not prophecy. :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2013, 02:55:19 AM
This is prophecy?
No, it's just connecting the dots........................................................to where they lead. :declare:
Maybe, possibly, could be, I am[my opinion only] am not connecting dots. I, by my own fault and weakness, continue to listen to current events.
I do not disallow totally, the literal findings of the Bible, but I find my strength with the words of Jesus.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life. (WNT)
I believe that as long as the clutter of our(mine included) thinking anchors on the established religion and denominational teachings, that we(me included) came from still keep seed in our thought, until we(me included) shed that chaff, we(me included) are bound to start from that teaching and thought, rather than what the Bible and The Teacher offers. The Spirit is the energy, and the Adam mind cannot discern what the Spirit is offering. Prophecy is a burden and prediction that comes from the Lord, not from what is happening, it is a word that expresses from what has happened and it's consequences from the Lord and His pleasure or displeasure of those actions from mans choices.
I yearn for prophecy, I want prophecy, Paul teaches me to await prophecy. 1Co 14:5 and I wish you all to speak with tongues, and more that ye may prophecy, for greater is he who is prophesying than he who is speaking with tongues, except one may interpret, that the assembly may receive edification [building, confirmation].
All this is but my opinion.
"Street vendors and souvenir stores across Washington, D.C. are selling posters depicting President Obama as Jesus Christ — and one national news publication called him the "Second Coming."
The poster, which does not have the official endorsement of the White House, features an image of the president in prayer with the headline, "Prophecy Fulfilled."
"Barak is of Hebrew origin and its meaning is 'flash of lightning," the poster notes, referencing a passage in in the Old Testament book of Judges.
Hussein, they allege, is a Biblical word meaning "good and handsome."
"So you see, Barak was destined to be a good and handsome man that would rise like a flash of lightning to win victory in a battle against overwhelming odds," the poster read.
This week's cover of Newsweek depicts President Obama as the "Second Coming" – a biblical reference to the return of Christ.
It's not the first time that Obama has been deified by his supporters.
Actor Jamie Foxx called President Obama "our Lord and Savior" during a recent television appearance.
"It's like church over here," Foxx told the audience. "First of all, give an honor to God and our Lord and Savior Barack Obama."
"Barack Obama," he shouted as the audience cheered.
Florida A&M professor Barbara Thompson published a book titled "The Gospel According to Apostle Barack." The book likens Obama to Jesus Christ and Martin Luther King, Jr.
"I learned that Jesus walked the earth to create a more civilized society, Martin (Luther King) walked the earth to create a more justified society, but, Apostle Barack, the name he was called in my dreams, would walk the earth to create a more equalized society, for the middle class and working poor," she wrote in an excerpt published by The Daily Caller. "Apostle Barack, the next young leader with a new cause, had been taken to the mountaintop and allowed to see over the other side."
A controversial painting of President Obama, posed as Jesus Christ on the cross, was part of an art exhibit at Bunker Hill Community College in Boston.
And at the Democratic National Convention street vendors were selling an array of products including a prayer garment embroidered with President Obama's name — along with a calendar that declared him "heaven sent."
The entry also included a photograph of Obama along with a passage of Scripture from the New Testament.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life," the entry read — referencing John 3:16.
The month of November includes an image of individuals with their hands on Obama's back — with the words "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want." - Todd Starnes"
Eyes open, looking up.
That's... interesting....
:Chinscratch:
Painting Depicts Obama as Crucified Christ
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/painting-depicts-obama-as-crucified-christ.html
naaw...they're getting him mixed up with the thief. :laugh:
"Come and see."
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
--Rev 6:2
"a crown"
G4735
στέφανος
stephanos
stef'-an-os
From an apparently primary "stepho" (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, G1238), literally or figuratively: - crown.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 21, 2013, 07:23:31 PM
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
No longer was The Word hidden in a tent/tabernacle under multiple layers of wool, badger skins, porpoise skins, and the like, all those veils. The Word was walking and talking among people as a man, down here with us. He died down here so that we could live up there...
"I finally fell asleep, and dreamed I was walking along a village road. Children, dressed only in strings of beads, played in front of the round huts, and several old men waved to me as I passed. But as I went farther along, I began to notice that people were looking behind me fearfully, rushing into their huts as I passed. I heard the growl of a leopard and started to run into the forest, tripping over roots and stumps and vines, until at least I couldn't run any longer and fell to my knees in the middle of a bright clearing. Panting for breath, I turned around to see the day turned night, and a giant figure looming as tall as the trees, wearing only a loincloth and ghostly mask. The lifeless eyes bored into me, and I heard a thunderous voice saying only that it was time, and my entire body began to shake violently with the sound, as if I were breaking apart. ...I jerked up in a sweat, hitting my head against the wall lamp that stuck out over the bunk. In the darkness, my heart slowly evened itself, but I couldn't get back to sleep again". [Dreams from My Father, 372.]
A disturbing dream that Obama had as a child.
Quote from: jabcat on January 21, 2013, 02:49:46 AM
"Street vendors and souvenir stores across Washington, D.C. are selling posters depicting President Obama as Jesus Christ — and one national news publication called him the "Second Coming."
The poster, which does not have the official endorsement of the White House, features an image of the president in prayer with the headline, "Prophecy Fulfilled."
"Barak is of Hebrew origin and its meaning is 'flash of lightning," the poster notes, referencing a passage in in the Old Testament book of Judges.
Hussein, they allege, is a Biblical word meaning "good and handsome."
"So you see, Barak was destined to be a good and handsome man that would rise like a flash of lightning to win victory in a battle against overwhelming odds," the poster read.
This week's cover of Newsweek depicts President Obama as the "Second Coming" – a biblical reference to the return of Christ.
It's not the first time that Obama has been deified by his supporters.
Actor Jamie Foxx called President Obama "our Lord and Savior" during a recent television appearance.
"It's like church over here," Foxx told the audience. "First of all, give an honor to God and our Lord and Savior Barack Obama."
"Barack Obama," he shouted as the audience cheered.
Florida A&M professor Barbara Thompson published a book titled "The Gospel According to Apostle Barack." The book likens Obama to Jesus Christ and Martin Luther King, Jr.
"I learned that Jesus walked the earth to create a more civilized society, Martin (Luther King) walked the earth to create a more justified society, but, Apostle Barack, the name he was called in my dreams, would walk the earth to create a more equalized society, for the middle class and working poor," she wrote in an excerpt published by The Daily Caller. "Apostle Barack, the next young leader with a new cause, had been taken to the mountaintop and allowed to see over the other side."
A controversial painting of President Obama, posed as Jesus Christ on the cross, was part of an art exhibit at Bunker Hill Community College in Boston.
And at the Democratic National Convention street vendors were selling an array of products including a prayer garment embroidered with President Obama's name — along with a calendar that declared him "heaven sent."
The entry also included a photograph of Obama along with a passage of Scripture from the New Testament.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life," the entry read — referencing John 3:16.
The month of November includes an image of individuals with their hands on Obama's back — with the words "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want." - Todd Starnes"
Eyes open, looking up.
Good grief! It's worse than I thought it was!
Quote from: misszoolander on January 21, 2013, 11:12:37 PM
"I finally fell asleep, and dreamed I was walking along a village road. Children, dressed only in strings of beads, played in front of the round huts, and several old men waved to me as I passed. But as I went farther along, I began to notice that people were looking behind me fearfully, rushing into their huts as I passed. I heard the growl of a leopard and started to run into the forest, tripping over roots and stumps and vines, until at least I couldn't run any longer and fell to my knees in the middle of a bright clearing. Panting for breath, I turned around to see the day turned night, and a giant figure looming as tall as the trees, wearing only a loincloth and ghostly mask. The lifeless eyes bored into me, and I heard a thunderous voice saying only that it was time, and my entire body began to shake violently with the sound, as if I were breaking apart. ...I jerked up in a sweat, hitting my head against the wall lamp that stuck out over the bunk. In the darkness, my heart slowly evened itself, but I couldn't get back to sleep again". [Dreams from My Father, 372.]
A disturbing dream that Obama had as a child.
If Revelation chapter 13 is read very closely, we can see that the 'little' beast, a man (for we have his number, verses 11-18) steps into the 'big' or world beast/body (verses 1-10) which expired once because its head did not after all sign on. Verse 13:13 reveals the office the final little one comes from, he (this office) makes fire 'come down' upon earth/man, in the sight of man - convincing them to rebuild the world beast/body.. think a new fire, and think 1945, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. {How is it missed?!? this prophecy and fulfillment.. it was huGe, changed the world}
Quote from: marie glen on January 21, 2013, 11:34:08 PM
Quote from: misszoolander on January 21, 2013, 11:12:37 PM
"I finally fell asleep, and dreamed I was walking along a village road. Children, dressed only in strings of beads, played in front of the round huts, and several old men waved to me as I passed. But as I went farther along, I began to notice that people were looking behind me fearfully, rushing into their huts as I passed. I heard the growl of a leopard and started to run into the forest, tripping over roots and stumps and vines, until at least I couldn't run any longer and fell to my knees in the middle of a bright clearing. Panting for breath, I turned around to see the day turned night, and a giant figure looming as tall as the trees, wearing only a loincloth and ghostly mask. The lifeless eyes bored into me, and I heard a thunderous voice saying only that it was time, and my entire body began to shake violently with the sound, as if I were breaking apart. ...I jerked up in a sweat, hitting my head against the wall lamp that stuck out over the bunk. In the darkness, my heart slowly evened itself, but I couldn't get back to sleep again". [Dreams from My Father, 372.]
A disturbing dream that Obama had as a child.
If Revelation chapter 13 is read very closely, we can see that the 'little' beast, a man (for we have his number, verses 11-18) steps into the 'big' or world beast/body (verses 1-10) which expired once because its head did not after all sign on. Verse 13:13 reveals the office the final little one comes from, he (this office) makes fire 'come down' upon earth/man, in the sight of man - convincing them to rebuild the world beast/body.. think a new fire, and think 1945, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. {How is it missed?!? this prophecy and fulfillment.. it was huGe, changed the world}
Daniel 11:24
24 He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province; and he shall do what his fathers have not done, nor his forefathers: he shall disperse among them the plunder, spoil, and riches; and he shall devise his plans against the strongholds, but only for a time.
Revelation 13:2
2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.I Do not know if Obama has a part to play in Revelation, however when I saw him mocking the bible on national TV, well my heart was pretty heavy.
Interesting comments and points made.
I don't make any specific predictions about it either - I'm not a prophet or the son of a prophet. However, IMO, there's too much happening, too much mass blindness, for current event to not be very significant - pregnant, as it were. :2c:
God will work out the details.
Here is a great piece by Elwin Roach about this subject. http://www.godfire.net/Elwin/245_The_Watchers.html
As for Obama's dream, I wouldn't be too worried about it, Bill Ayers wrote most of the book, injecting his own persona and experiences into BO's. Its probably Ayers' dream.
For they say to themselves, with their misguided reasoning:
"Our life is short and dreary,
nor is there any relief when man's end comes,
nor is anyone known who can give release from Hades.
By chance we came to birth,
and after this life we shall be as if we had never been.
The breath in our nostrils is a puff of smoke,
reason a spark from the beating of our hearts;
put this out and our body turns to ashes,
and the spirit melts away like idle air.
In time, our name will be forgotten,
nobody will remember what we have done;
our life will pass away like wisps of cloud,
dissolve like the mist
that the sun's rays drive away
and the heat of it overwhelms.
Yes, our days are the passing of a shadow,
from our death there is no turning back,
the seal is set: no one returns.
Come then, let us enjoy what good things there are,
use this creation with the zest of youth:
take our fill of the dearest wines and perfumes,
let not one flower of springtime pass us by,
before they wither crown ourselves with roses.
Let none of us forgo his part in our orgy,
let us leave the signs of our revelry everywhere,
this is our portion, this the lot assigned us.
As for the virtuous man who is poor, let us oppress him;
let us not spare the widow,
nor respect old age, white-haired with many years.
Let our strength be the yardstick of virtue,
since weakness argues its own futility.
Let us lie in wait for the virtuous man, since he annoys us
and opposes our way of life,
reproaches us for our breaches of the law
and accuses us of playing false to our upbringing.
He claims to have knowledge of God,
and calls himself a son of the Lord.
Before us he stands, a reproof to our way of thinking,
the very sight of him weighs our spirits down;
his way of life is not like other men's,
the paths he treads are unfamiliar.
In his opinion we are counterfeit;
he holds aloof from our doings as though from filth;
he proclaims the final end of the virtuous as happy
and boasts of having God for his father.
Let us see if what he says is true,
let us observe what kind of end he himself will have.
If the virtuous man is God's son, God will take his part
and rescue him from the clutches of his enemies.
Let us test him with cruelty and with torture,
and thus explore this gentleness of his
and put his endurance to the proof.
Let us condemn him to a shameful death
since he will be looked after - we have his word for it.
This is the way they reason, but they are misled,
their malice makes them blind.
They do not know the hidden things of God,
they have no hope that holiness will be rewarded,
they can see no reward for blameless souls.
Yet God did make man imperishable,
he made him in the image of his own nature;
it was the devil's envy that brought death into the world,
as those who are his partners will discover."
--Book of Wisdom, Chapter 2
http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?bible_chapter=2&id=27
This is not prophecy, but I feel it will fit.
I am not going to use the character of 2Ch 7:14 and My people on whom My name is called be humbled, and pray, and seek My face, and turn back from their evil ways, then I--I hear from the heavens, and forgive their sin, and heal their land. As America... why?
There is such a mix up of what believing in Jesus Christ is. There is too much schism in the Body of American believers, how can a people be humbled, pray, and seek His face when there are so many FACES that they see?
In America, there is a remnant,and other places in the world... and they are humbled, and pray and seek His face, this remnant perhaps now is understanding this word... Exo 5:18 Go therefore now, and work; for there shall no straw be given you, yet shall ye deliver the number of bricks.
The Lord HAS a remnant and that remnant shall prevail, HE said so. I am in no way even considering that the person now who is POTUS is a just, or honorable man. I do not believe this, this is the first president, in my life time, that as a Marine veteran of Viet Nam, I cannot give respect.
But I try hard to keep my American emotions down, and not mix it with my stand for Jesus Christ. To mix the two is oil and water, for me. My citizenship is in a higher place. Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Good post micah.
Thank you my friend. :dsunny: :HeartThrob: I usually of late, do not fair to well.
:)
I especially liked this part of the link from RHM of Elwin Roach's, and goes along with micah's post -
"God chastises whom he loves because he knows: pride comes before the fall, and humbleness and brokenness is the only condition he responds to. We personally sense we need to tell you: the destiny of your nation is in God's hands, not yours. It is not at all about Obama or Romney, it is about God using all the nations in the world according to his global and unchanging plans. Did you ever allow the thought that God in his sovereignty is using Obama like a pawn on his chessboard to humble the US as a nation because he wants to show his grace to a nation gone completely self-sufficient? A nation that is so full of independence, individualism, nationalism and trusting a greed- and fear-based economy that there may be only one way open to heal it from its idolatry and re-align itself with the Kingdom of God: a crisis beyond anything that America has ever seen?
In 2008, God was challenged by a man standing up in public, preaching to the cheers of a huge crowd: "Yes we can!" We watched it; we saw the tears of excitement in the eyes of the people; the statements were received as if coming from the Messiah himself, and the electoral rallies had all the flavor of a religious revival. "Yes, we can" is the exact opposite of the King of kings saying: "Without me, you can do nothing!"
So what is there to fear, brethren? Even if this basest of men is a cunning serpent and brings the U.S. to her knees, along with the world, as many believe will happen — the most High, the Lord rules in all the kingdoms of the world."
Thanks again. I love Elwin. Haven't talked to him in awhile, Oh how I love Jesus :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Barack Obama is no more than a fly in the ointment of our worldly hopes and dreams :o)
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh,
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
(Rom 9:17-18)
Quote from: jabcat on January 22, 2013, 06:00:20 AM
:)
I especially liked this part of the link from RHM of Elwin Roach's, and goes along with micah's post -
"God chastises whom he loves because he knows: pride comes before the fall, and humbleness and brokenness is the only condition he responds to. We personally sense we need to tell you: the destiny of your nation is in God's hands, not yours. It is not at all about Obama or Romney, it is about God using all the nations in the world according to his global and unchanging plans. Did you ever allow the thought that God in his sovereignty is using Obama like a pawn on his chessboard to humble the US as a nation because he wants to show his grace to a nation gone completely self-sufficient? A nation that is so full of independence, individualism, nationalism and trusting a greed- and fear-based economy that there may be only one way open to heal it from its idolatry and re-align itself with the Kingdom of God: a crisis beyond anything that America has ever seen?
In 2008, God was challenged by a man standing up in public, preaching to the cheers of a huge crowd: "Yes we can!" We watched it; we saw the tears of excitement in the eyes of the people; the statements were received as if coming from the Messiah himself, and the electoral rallies had all the flavor of a religious revival. "Yes, we can" is the exact opposite of the King of kings saying: "Without me, you can do nothing!"
So what is there to fear, brethren? Even if this basest of men is a cunning serpent and brings the U.S. to her knees, along with the world, as many believe will happen — the most High, the Lord rules in all the kingdoms of the world."
Whatever happens our God is
not a failure :dsunny: :trampoline: :shakepoint:
The part where he says the watchers have brought this elections result through prayer is the experience I had sometime during the election cycle. I had been praying for pretty much anyone but BO. I was in the spirit when this changed and I was given a word that brought me into alignment with this. I remember it was before Bo was leading. It was still while ron Paul had a "chance".
Bo was made to bring the country down. He's not a real person but an empty suit. The elites think they can continue with their global agenda untouched. They think Barak is their man. He is nothing more than a tool in the hand of the smith. Oh they will bring our society to its knees but they will be hung on the gallows they've built for us. Out of the death of our economy society and way of life will rise the Sons of God. All creation is groaning with eager anticipation.
I think our society is bringing itself to its knees by its lust and greed and hedonism, and in the church, the salt has lost its savor.
If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked ways the I will hear from heaven and heal their land
...... who are His people, Americans? No, the children of God. If the people of God in this country were to repent and seek the Lord with a whole heart.......
"Except you repent I will come and remove your lampstand from its place."
I believe God raised up America for the two purposes of 1) destroying Hitler and binding Stalin while providing a Cyrus for the re-establishing of the nation of Israel and2)for raising up a lampstand for the gospel. When this stage of the restoration of all things comes to a close, He will call us into account for our stewardship of His blessings, grace and power.
"You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting."
Why are we still being covered by grace? The cup of our iniquity is not yet full. God has not forgotten the blood of our fathers that was shed by Him in rescuing His people Israel from the hands of Hitler and Stalin(twin horns adversary). And there is still a remnant of the righteous interceding for the land.
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
(Isa 1:16-23)
IMO, The two party system in America disappeared into a nationalistic oligarchy under Bill Clinton. It made no difference whatsoever whether Barack Obama or Mitt Romney were elected. This judgment began decades ago, intensified under George Bush and is perhaps being filled up under Barack Obama. But it is not because of Barack Obama.
I believe God is dealing with the ecclesia(the called out ones, the church) in America-"Where else must you be stricken as you continue in your rebellion....the temple of the Lord has become like a watchmans hut in a cucumber field". "It is time for judgment to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem."
When God raises storm clouds n the horizon, it is to give a last chance, an appeal from His people based in an awakening of repentance.
Joel 2:14-17 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Who knows, He may return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
(Joe 2:11-17)
The Lord will maintain His own testimony. He isn't worried- He is ahead of the event horizon. He is merciful, slow to anger and patient in kindness, granting time for a renewal among us of an awareness of what His purpose is.
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
(Joh 13:34-35)
We are supposed to be the salt, but instead it seems that we have become like the nation that surrounds us.
Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
I thought God's people were "those who are jews inwardly"? Last time I checked the Jerusalem that is below is the bondwoman, and is to be thrown out.
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 22, 2013, 04:38:54 PM
I thought God's people were "those who are jews inwardly"? Last time I checked the Jerusalem that is below is the bondwoman, and is to be thrown out.
I think I understand that.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 22, 2013, 03:28:38 PM
I believe God raised up America for the two purposes of 1) destroying Hitler and binding Stalin while providing a Cyrus for the re-establishing of the nation of Israel and2)for raising up a lampstand for the gospel.
Yet, it seems to me that Amerika (the only way I can spell it nowadays) has been in decline since 1948, slowly at first such that you hardly noticed, and now we are going to "Hell" on a rocket sled.
So you guys don't think God raised up America to kill the Indians, take a good part of Mexico, and give women the right to vote? :Chinscratch: :dsunny:
IMO, my citizenship is in heaven and I am a "stranger in a strange land"
This is almost nothing like the USA I was raised in.
Back then, people at least pretended to keep away from evil.
Now they deliberately flaunt their sin.
Injustice is the word that comes to mind when I think of the unjust man
being called just.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 22, 2013, 06:46:16 PM
So you guys don't think God raised up America to kill the Indians, take a good part of Mexico, and give women the right to vote? :Chinscratch: :dsunny:
:LH:
"christianity" and western society grew on the mantra of manifest destiny. Literally attempting to bring the kingdom of God, manifesting their destiny as God's chosen people to bring the kingdom of God to Earth (much of it driven by British Israelism). A noble attempt. Misguided as to what the kingdom is IMO. killing the indians, and enslaving the blacks wasn't ever part of the kingdom, well the Hagar kingdom, of Ishmaelites.
Ishmael:
"He shall be a wild ass of a man, with his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and he shall live at odds with all his kin."
But, there have been people from both kingdoms in this country since the outset, just like the rest of the world since time began.
Red,
I wonder if these "beat others down" Christians felt they were superior because they were white and had been "especially chosen" to believe in this life? In a way, this is an indictment against the ET doctrine of exclusivity. :2c:
Yes ded I think that is the case.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 22, 2013, 06:46:16 PM
So you guys don't think God raised up America to kill the Indians, take a good part of Mexico, and give women the right to vote? :Chinscratch: :dsunny:
No, that's all incidental. God raised up America to be a standard to the world - all about freedom and religious liberty - and to spread the Gospel to the nations, which it did along with Britain, more than the rest of Christendom.
Personally I find my self at fault when I get into talking politics, I feel I am a Libertarian and when I get on this forum I am attempting to learn and hopefully leave a good word on the offering of the Word of God. I really try and stay quiet, and will admit I am weak at staying out of a good verbal political donnybrook, and hate myself afterward.
But seriously, wouldn't it be better to have a slot called.. Re: Politics today or Re: Current Events and then my opinion would rarely if ever be heard. Mixing politics and religion I believe is harmful, and imo has nothing to do with walking in the WAY. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: Just a thought. :dsunny:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 22, 2013, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 22, 2013, 06:46:16 PM
So you guys don't think God raised up America to kill the Indians, take a good part of Mexico, and give women the right to vote? :Chinscratch: :dsunny:
No, that's all incidental. God raised up America to be a standard to the world - all about freedom and religious liberty - and to spread the Gospel to the nations, which it did along with Britain, more than the rest of Christendom.
AH! :2c:
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 22, 2013, 07:45:24 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 22, 2013, 06:46:16 PM
So you guys don't think God raised up America to kill the Indians, take a good part of Mexico, and give women the right to vote? :Chinscratch: :dsunny:
:LH:
"christianity" and western society grew on the mantra of manifest destiny. Literally attempting to bring the kingdom of God, manifesting their destiny as God's chosen people to bring the kingdom of God to Earth (much of it driven by British Israelism). A noble attempt. Misguided as to what the kingdom is IMO. killing the indians, and enslaving the blacks wasn't ever part of the kingdom, well the Hagar kingdom, of Ishmaelites.
Ishmael:
"He shall be a wild ass of a man, with his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and he shall live at odds with all his kin."
But, there have been people from both kingdoms in this country since the outset, just like the rest of the world since time began.
While part of my personal theology is akin (but only akin) to "British Israelism," the result of Amerika's national theology of Manifest Destiny shows (once again) that you cannot establish the Kingdom through the agency of the Arm of Flesh.
....if you keep on devouring one another,watch out,or you will be destroyed of each other. It is nothing other then carnalness.
Zombies... all eating my arm s of flesh... :dontknow:
yeah..carnal worship in deed..killing and taking and saying..it is my divine right.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 10:27:21 PM
Zombies... all eating my arm s of flesh... :dontknow:
[/quote
Yes that is a good word picture.
Zombies eating each others flesh thinking it will give them more life.
We need to eat more flesh of Jesus and drink the blood of his covenant.
Sheila your cautions are very timely.
Thank you
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 22, 2013, 09:02:50 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 22, 2013, 07:45:24 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 22, 2013, 06:46:16 PM
So you guys don't think God raised up America to kill the Indians, take a good part of Mexico, and give women the right to vote? :Chinscratch: :dsunny:
:LH:
"christianity" and western society grew on the mantra of manifest destiny. Literally attempting to bring the kingdom of God, manifesting their destiny as God's chosen people to bring the kingdom of God to Earth (much of it driven by British Israelism). A noble attempt. Misguided as to what the kingdom is IMO. killing the indians, and enslaving the blacks wasn't ever part of the kingdom, well the Hagar kingdom, of Ishmaelites.
Ishmael:
"He shall be a wild ass of a man, with his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and he shall live at odds with all his kin."
But, there have been people from both kingdoms in this country since the outset, just like the rest of the world since time began.
While part of my personal theology is akin (but only akin) to "British Israelism," the result of Amerika's national theology of Manifest Destiny shows (once again) that you cannot establish the Kingdom through the agency of the Arm of Flesh.
Laz that is my point. We just may differ as to when america began in the arm of the flesh. For me any country is a kingddom of men. Aka the nations in rev. And for me that includes he country of Israel and america
We seem to agree.
Only the overcomer Christians will bring forth the fruits of the kingdom, acceptable to God. No nation can or will do so, only that "the Kingdom of God is among you" group.
Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don't be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don't believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. 3 Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. 4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.
5 Don't you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you? 6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. 7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. 8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming.
9 This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. 10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.
--2 Thess 2
Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
--Luke 21:36
My concern is who is " This man."
Barack Obama HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA not.
I do not find the Re: Prophecy.... an acceptable place to produce useful dialogue for prophecy or prediction as to what concerns the Bible. The answer to who is "the man" is barack obama,..... and I shutter to use the word, silly. There I go again. I mean no offence, but to offer that is damn well human in it's entire concept. Humanity has used stalin, hitler, reagan and so many others and now obama. Puuuuleeze. Okay I'm ready for the ban. :dsunny:
Yeah, I remember a few years ago seeing a web site named: bushistheantichrist.com Top that.
I'm old enough to remember when Kennedy was the anti-christ. :o)
When you are looking for the anti Christ you will probably find one.
When you are looking at the true Christ you will encounter hundreds of thousands
of anti Christ's may be even your self once.
We are given distinct characteristics for the Antichrist. So go ahead and laugh.
But we are told to watch.
It's not really a laughing matter, imo.
Would anyone care to list the characteristics from the book of Daniel, Revelation, and elsewhere?
I'll start.
His authority, position, and power are given to him by the Devil himself.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
--Rev 13:2
He answered them: "When evening comes you say, 'It will be good weather because the sky is red.' 3 And in the morning, 'Today will be stormy because the sky is red and threatening.' You[a] know how to read the appearance of the sky, but you can't read the signs of the times. 4 An evil and adulterous generation demands a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of[c] Jonah." Then He left them and went away.
Then Jesus told them, "Watch out and beware of the yeast[e] of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
"Then if anyone tells you, 'Look, here is the Messiah! Look—there!' do not believe it! 22 For false messiahs[j] and false prophets will rise up and will perform signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 And you must watch! I have told you everything in advance.
"Friend,"[d] He said to him, "who appointed Me a judge or arbitrator over you?" 15 He then told them, "Watch out and be on guard against all greed because one's life is not in the abundance of his possessions."
we need look no further than in the mirror..to identify the beast, the anti-christ,the man of sin...a man's enemies are in
his own household. Every tresspass against you that remains unforgiven in your heart is anti-christ. every sin held
against man[that Christ died for] is the anti-christ in operation on you. every time you do not put to death the deeds
of the flesh by the spirit of Christ..the man of lawlessness is revealed. every time you sit and judge your brother by law
to condemn him..a power and principality is ruling in your heavens.
evrytime a religious hypocritical spirit of elitism raises up in pride and aggorance in our flesh..offspring of vipers is manifest.
he who does not gather with me scatters.......
devouring one anothers opionions..doctrines and traditions of men..is a far cry from communion in the Holy spirit.
when Reagan was first elected he was the antichrist because
Ronald Wilson Reagan
6 6 6 letters in each name. :laugh:
I don't think we can speculate on who the final anti-Christ will be.. well, we cAn, but what good is that? The whole world pretty much.. man's kingdom, is anti-Christ! We can study prophecy and we can watch and pray.. watch for the signs Jesus gave, and also Daniel which Jesus mentioned.. And other Bible prophets too of course, but the meat for the most part is the Book of Revelation, Jesus' signs He gave, and Daniel.
God can use nations, obviously, what with Jesus being "the seed of Abraham who will bless aLL nations". But that doesn't make Israel perfect or perfected. That doesn't occur until resurrection, and even then, not sure all nations will be perfect or perfected immediately, as 1000 years later is a second resurrection of all those who "died in their sins" and rise I'm strongly assuming, also "in their sins" as they do not yet "believe" and cleave or bend the knee.
Many of course do feel the U.S was a Christian nation, but that doesn't make the U.S to ever had been perfect.. even on the Mayflower, the people were not yet perfected. And we know many others followed after the Mayflower, criminals, and the like, included, and business oriented also. [If we read rev chapter 12 about the nation with 12 stars, which births a son of man who will rule the nations with a rod of iron(un-breakable laws of God, Ps 2:9?6?), which the dragon (using Herod) tried to devour the child when born but He was caught up to God and His Throne (Heb 1:3). Then there are two ragings of the dragon and two migrations (#1 being in 70a.d. and #2 when the nation, now Christianity "was given the two wings of an eagle to fly, sail? to a new place free from the face of satan for 350 modern time span - 1620 to 1970 ,at which time filth is vomited out of the dragon's mouth, using the serpent guise, in order to wash her/ Christianity from off the face of the earth.. but the earth helps the woman and the dragon turns his attention more fully to her other offspring who now have the testimony of Jesus..and the "spirits gather together the kings of the earth to Armageddon, blessed is the one watching for I come as a thief, and they gathered together to Armageddon."-Rev 16:14,15,16.
..Jesus had said "Israel you shall not see me again until you say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord".. at which time we can assume Israel does see Him again..
But even though the Lord uses Christianity and Israel, does not imply they are in any way perfect. This is simply God's proving drama, much like a parent may give a child a certain amount of free will so they can learn.. proving good from evil, life from death, true from untrue .
As to who the final 'man of sin' will be, there's a very large clue - rev 13:13 - a new fire brought down from heaven/the sky, in the sight of man.. pinpoints an office..one, I'm assuming starts out as a lamb, but ends up speaking like a dragon(vs11?12?) when united with the 'big' beast.. world beast or body.
...it sure would be nice to be able to hand on an understanding of Bible prophecy to those who will be dealing with the collapse of man's empires(final global one, or gone global) as I'm sure they were given not without purpose.
What were the signs Jesus gave? Israel surrounded by armies.. and the abomination of desolation told of by Daniel (especially 12:11,12) when he, Daniel said three and one half (Hebrew) years after the (place of) daily prayers offered, is taken away, removed, shall be set up the abomination which desolates. "And BLESSED is the one" (in that day) "who makes it to 45 days later." -- We can see things going global, etc, (the harlot, today's /greek word "harlot"=pornos upon seven hills/continents and in bed with the politicians/kings, and by her enchantments she makes the merchants rich... not yesteryear's harlot as so much of the church focuses upon.. And a "strong delusion"... what is the strongest delusion at work upon mankind in today's world?.. the root, we could say of where today's world is going wrong (???)
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 23, 2013, 08:40:08 PM
when Reagan was first elected he was the antichrist because
Ronald Wilson Reagan
6 6 6 letters in each name. :laugh:
In John's day when he was at Patmos, the Roman numbers at use at the time, added up to 666.
500, 100, 50, 10, 5, and 1 - today's application? Some say it will be in the numbering system of which we have the date of birth as 6 numbers now, as in 01/23/12, and there would be two more numberings which 6 digits.. I find things in our world getting very creepy/spooky.. what with tracking ability, satellite surveillance, hologram ability being developed and was demonstrated in China.. unmanned drone surveillance.. and the strong trend in some parts toward global governance.. (lotta power in few hands!).. and the U.S. (and other western nations) losing sight of the safety nets of the constitution and separation of powers.. and also seems more western attitude of 'a king' or charismatic leader.. seems to be shaping up also.. [when the
guy office (rev 13:11-18, which did 13:13, steps into the prime seat of rev 13:1-10.. then, we will know who 'he' is.] :smile: :2c:
Moving right along here..
He will be worshipped, admired, and feared.
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
--Rev 13:4
Remember that Reagan, Bush(s), Obama, and all such, are just errand boys compared to the real men of power. It is these men who really rule the world, and you and I have probably not ever heard their names spoken. When the real Antichrist arrives, he will probably be an errand boy too, the real power prefers to keep hidden, IMHO.
One thing to remember, though, Laz, the Antichrist will be openly worshipped.
It is also my opinion that for his last 3.5 years, he will be indwelt by Satan.
The Bible is clear that both Satan and the Antichrist are being worshipped at the same time.
I'm well aware, just saying the REAL power always stays hidden...could that be S-A-T-A-N?
Quote from: sheila on January 23, 2013, 08:29:30 PM
we need look no further than in the mirror..to identify the beast, the anti-christ,the man of sin...a man's enemies are in
his own household. Every tresspass against you that remains unforgiven in your heart is anti-christ. every sin held
against man[that Christ died for] is the anti-christ in operation on you. every time you do not put to death the deeds
of the flesh by the spirit of Christ..the man of lawlessness is revealed. every time you sit and judge your brother by law
to condemn him..a power and principality is ruling in your heavens.
evrytime a religious hypocritical spirit of elitism raises up in pride and aggorance in our flesh..offspring of vipers is manifest.
he who does not gather with me scatters.......
devouring one anothers opionions..doctrines and traditions of men..is a far cry from communion in the Holy spirit.
Yes, amen.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 23, 2013, 10:27:44 PM
I'm well aware, just saying the REAL power always stays hidden...could that be S-A-T-A-N?
understand. I'm just saying at the end of the age, it will be revealed.
Everything will be revealed, including the man who Satan chooses to indwell at this time to run his 'unified' world.
And, more than anything else, imo, Satan wants the world to openly worship him.
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.--Rev 13:8
In my opinion, the entire understanding of the concept of what you speak is cluttered with our(man's) imagination. What we have today, just in America, reveals much of what is expected to happen. When and if we quit looking for "the man" much of what is to be understood will be revealed. In my opinion, again, is the word is "bound." This, as has been stated, is only an opinion. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Expected? How?
Just look around, Molly, you, it's seems are on top of current events just look. :HeartThrob:
Paul had time to reflect before he boarded the train to Jordan.
We all have to get on board one way or an other.
But we only board once.
Wh-a-at??
666 is the number of mankind. Not A man. The word is anthropos. It speaks of flesh as man was created on 6th day.
We are the temple of God. For their to be an abomination in it and it to be a literal man he would have to go around and insert a statue of Zeus inside of each of us.
We are the holy city new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven adorned like a bride.
I agree with Sheila. Look in the mirror and you will see the beast. Paul even speaks of it IMO. We see through a glass darkly is actually we see in a mirror an enigma.
:2c:
It's easy to make a broad sweep like that, RHM.
[In spite of the fact that I don't appreciate being called a 'beast.']
But very specific things are said about the man of perdition that we cannot all possibly fulfill.
That's why I'm asking for characteristics. You will see once we have a list.
He is a specific man.
Walid Shoebat explains the mark of the beast, 666.
They thought it was 3 Greek symbols.
Then they decided it was gematria for 666.
Then they started putting 666 into the text.
But, Wallid says gematria is witchcraft. God would not use gematria to communicate with us in the Biblical text. Nor would God give us a mystery too hard to understand.
So what is it? He says it's another language other than Greek and he can read it.
It is written in Arabic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKkwMFvCXMs
Molly does the written word say the number is the number of mankind? I'd say that is a broad sweep. All were subjected to futility. That is adam, the man of sin. We bear the IMAGE of the man of earth.
"this wisdom is earthy, demonic"
"All men are beasts" Sorry I didn't call you a beast, the bible did. But I am calling you the beast now. But I'm calling myself the beast. I know that I don't need some scary world leader to oppose Christ, I can do that well and fine all on my own.
There is a mystery of lawlessness and the mystery of glory. They are both hidden now. But they will be unveiled at the same time. Until we realize that we are the problem, not some boogey man, then we will still suffer confusion. We will look in the mirror and only see the enigma.
But we all with unveiled faces (the cherubim veil, the cherubim are beasts in REV, the veil is the flesh in HEB), are reflecting the glory of the Lord as in a mirror.
I know I'm not going to convince you Molly. And with all that I'm saying I don't totally disregard that there may be an actual manifestation of a literal beast (well not "really" literal because that would be absurd).
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 01:56:54 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 23, 2013, 10:27:44 PM
I'm well aware, just saying the REAL power always stays hidden...could that be S-A-T-A-N?
understand. I'm just saying at the end of the age, it will be revealed.
Everything will be revealed, including the man who Satan chooses to indwell at this time to run his 'unified' world.
And, more than anything else, imo, Satan wants the world to openly worship him.
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.
--Rev 13:8
I absolutely agree Molly. :smile: I find most of God's Word to be very straight forward, but I do agree that each one of us is our own worst enemy! (Except for satan&co). But surely(?) the "beasts" in Bible prophecy are governments, 'kings' and human governings. Was pharoah simply within? Caesar? Titus? Nero? Domitius? I think we try to metaphor it away because it's unpleasant. And surely our wonderful God would never let such occur. But to look at history states differently. (What lesson can really be learned without actually going through it??)
- Besides, Jesus gave very clear signs and referred us to Daniel who even included a sort of calendar to count days and watch (for). Not dates! but is like a counting backward from the 'last' day. "Between the time when the" (world) "removes the daily sacrifice" (or place of? in Israel? CR Mt 24:1,2?)..
it, Daniel 12:11,12, says, (11)from the time the daily offerings are removed, til the abomination of desolation (amplified bible calls 666) is "set up" shall be 3 and 1/2 (Hebrew)
years. (12)
Happy the one who makes it to 45 days later. - What "happy" event occurs "45 days later"? ("Unless those days be cut short none would survive.")
Some Bible prophecy is, I'll agree, hard to understand, but these verses seem real clear to me.
- I'm afraid I'm totally 'obsessed' with "truth". It's what made hell,etc, so totally lacking in logic to me. Another topic I just had/have to know the truth of, is Bible prophecy (and also history is tops). What good does the Word/Truth do me if my perception of it isn't "true"!? I was very fortunate to be able to be a stay at home mom and once the children went to school I spent my days praying and prayerfully contemplating these things. I'm sure we all do that, but I had a lot of free time, for quite a stretch, I could devote to study and prayer. BiG :smile:
- There were 3 or 4 things I learned, along with Daniel 12, 11 and 12, which gave me the opinion and perception I have of 'end' days prophecy. One is the two migrations of rev chapter 12 which I think I posted earlier in this thread. And then there's Rev 13:13. It's plain to see there are two beasts on the world scene here, the one of verses 1-10 and the one of verses 11-18. Verse 13:13 pinpoints (for those who want to know or want to watch) the office from which the second one comes from (or proceeds from?) the "man" (beast) for we have his number, and yes 6 is the number of man, I agree with that.
- But look at 13:13
"It (beast 11-18) worked mighty miracles, and while people watched, it even made fire come down from the sky."- I guess I should start with how the Book of Revelation has been 'locked' (for a time). Perhaps you've noticed it too. Right off the bat, we read the book wrong! With thinking the 7 seals occur late on the scene. Not so! The rider on a whiTe horse who triumphed ("making a shew openly over principalities and powers" aka triumphed openly over the 'gods' of the old age).. this rider on a white horse is surely none other than Christ and He and His gospel "went out conquering and to conquer" with His ride, march and gallop continuing throughout the latter age, as each seal does. And the seven seals are the seven most prominent elements of the latter age, the years of our Lord A.D. - Notice how the horse and rider of war "is given a long sword" (translated "great" sword, "long" sword in different versions).
--
The thing about the seals of God is they are described in chapter six, each one, as a blend of what it is when 1st beginning/Opened/unsealed, and also what it is in its full blown form at 'the end'. This really does hide the vision for many days. It's like a twofold cord, these descriptions of the 7 Seals, one cord being what it is at its very beginning, and the other cord what it is at the very 'end' in its fully galloped or fully accelerated form.
- Because of this, things which occur very late upon planet earth, are described here, in chapter 6, so very early in the vision and writing. This efficiently has obscured and confused the understanding of the book. [Verses 6:12 to 7:2 is a direct cross reference to verses 13:13.]
-
Therefor, the occurrence of 13:13 is thought to happen very late in the scheme of things, and,
"while people watched" (on the evening news?)
"it (2nd beast of chapter 13, the man and office of verses 13:11-18) made fire come down from the sky in the sight of people." Once we know these things, I don't know how we can help but consider this fire.. a new sort of fire brought from the sky occurred in 1945 over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and we can still watch it easily enough these days, if we have a mind to.
...I don't know why I got into all that :rolllol: when all I wanted to say is we don't have to metaphor it away, it only occurs, for the most part, for 45 days. With the clear signs given, it won't be hard for our kids(?) or in my case, grand kids(?) to avoid and be the ones "happy who come to the 45 days later" or that is, after the 45 days (35 days being the fulfillment of Rev 13:17,no buying or selling w/o, and the last "ten days" escalating to Rev 20:4,beheaded?
- Considering the flawed nature of humans and how we always seem to fall short so very, very often, if not always, down through history. I wouldn't be surprised if they go into and through those days not armed with the Words Jesus intended for them. Although! Praise God! :smile: Jesus and the Spirit (and Presence) of God is very able! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :banana:
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
--Rev 13
It says 'a man.'
"a man"
G444
ανθρωπος
anthrōpos
anth'-ro-pos
From G435 and ωψ ōps (the countenance; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: - certain, man.
But it also says count the number of the beast, so at the same time, it is many men.
Revelation 13 is talking about a specific man. So here is a man that counts his number among many men who use this symbol "666' or what Walid says it is.
So it is a beast kingdom that is run by a beast [Antichrist, with indwelt Satan.]
:2cents:
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 24, 2013, 04:57:50 PM
Molly does the written word say the number is the number of mankind? I'd say that is a broad sweep. All were subjected to futility. That is adam, the man of sin. We bear the IMAGE of the man of earth.
"this wisdom is earthy, demonic"
"All men are beasts" ... ...Until we realize that we are the problem, not some boogey man....
I agree we are the problem, but even further than that, or the root of it, is 'free will' or rather every body (man and angel) going their own way, will not, and simply can not, ever, work. God is Perfection, and also Life itself (what else could be?). So to choose any teeny tiny thing which disagrees with God's choice or perception of any thing at all, only ends up "in" im-perfection,
the opposite of Life. Can't be done.. ever.. no way.. no how..
- That's the truth which (knowing good from evil / life from death) we are all (man and angel) chewing on..
Quote from: RHMThere is a mystery of lawlessness and the mystery of glory. They are both hidden now. But they will be unveiled at the same time. Until we realize that we are the problem, not some boogey man, then we will still suffer confusion. We will look in the mirror and only see the enigma.
The 'mystery' of lawlessness refers to the occult religions I believe. That word, musterion, refers to secred rites and initiation given to members of a religious group. That word is also used by Paul for the 'mystery revealed to the saints, Christ in you.' This is a secret which has been kept from the world for generations, and only revealed to the inner circle. Even today that is true.
I believe the mystery [occult] religions are alive and well today. This is the 'man-kingdom' of Daniel 2 seen in the vision. It is a kingdom run by beasts for beasts, which is why it is so tyrannical and cruel, so lacking in any human quality of love, kindness, and mercy.
But, don't believe me, look around at the pyramids, triangles, obelisks--what relevance do they have to anyone? Only the initiates know. 'It's a secret," he told the reporter when asked. A thousand points of light, he called it. Why only 1000?
They hate human beings and want them dead, every last one. Wasn't Satan a murderer from the beginning?
Quote from: marie glen on January 24, 2013, 06:38:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 01:56:54 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 23, 2013, 10:27:44 PM
I'm well aware, just saying the REAL power always stays hidden...could that be S-A-T-A-N?
understand. I'm just saying at the end of the age, it will be revealed.
Everything will be revealed, including the man who Satan chooses to indwell at this time to run his 'unified' world.
And, more than anything else, imo, Satan wants the world to openly worship him.
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.
--Rev 13:8
I absolutely agree Molly. :smile: I find most of God's Word to be very straight forward, but I do agree that each one of us is our own worst enemy! (Except for satan&co). But surely(?) the "beasts" in Bible prophecy are governments, 'kings' and human governings. Was pharoah simply within? Caesar? Titus? Nero? Domitius? I think we try to metaphor it away because it's unpleasant. And surely our wonderful God would never let such occur. But to look at history states differently. (What lesson can really be learned without actually going through it??)
- Besides, Jesus gave very clear signs and referred us to Daniel who even included a sort of calendar to count days and watch (for). Not dates! but is like a counting backward from the 'last' day. "Between the time when the" (world) "removes the daily sacrifice" (or place of? in Israel? CR Mt 24:1,2?).. it, Daniel 12:11,12, says, (11)from the time the daily offerings are removed, til the abomination of desolation (amplified bible calls 666) is "set up" shall be 3 and 1/2 (Hebrew) years. (12) Happy the one who makes it to 45 days later.
- What "happy" event occurs "45 days later"? ("Unless those days be cut short none would survive.")
Some Bible prophecy is, I'll agree, hard to understand, but these verses seem real clear to me.
- I'm afraid I'm totally 'obsessed' with "truth". It's what made hell,etc, so totally lacking in logic to me. Another topic I just had/have to know the truth of, is Bible prophecy (and also history is tops). What good does the Word/Truth do me if my perception of it isn't "true"!? I was very fortunate to be able to be a stay at home mom and once the children went to school I spent my days praying and prayerfully contemplating these things. I'm sure we all do that, but I had a lot of free time, for quite a stretch, I could devote to study and prayer. BiG :smile:
- There were 3 or 4 things I learned, along with Daniel 12, 11 and 12, which gave me the opinion and perception I have of 'end' days prophecy. One is the two migrations of rev chapter 12 which I think I posted earlier in this thread. And then there's Rev 13:13. It's plain to see there are two beasts on the world scene here, the one of verses 1-10 and the one of verses 11-18. Verse 13:13 pinpoints (for those who want to know or want to watch) the office from which the second one comes from (or proceeds from?) the "man" (beast) for we have his number, and yes 6 is the number of man, I agree with that.
- But look at 13:13 "It (beast 11-18) worked mighty miracles, and while people watched, it even made fire come down from the sky."
- I guess I should start with how the Book of Revelation has been 'locked' (for a time). Perhaps you've noticed it too. Right off the bat, we read the book wrong! With thinking the 7 seals occur late on the scene. Not so! The rider on a whiTe horse who triumphed ("making a shew openly over principalities and powers" aka triumphed openly over the 'gods' of the old age).. this rider on a white horse is surely none other than Christ and He and His gospel "went out conquering and to conquer" with His ride, march and gallop continuing throughout the latter age, as each seal does. And the seven seals are the seven most prominent elements of the latter age, the years of our Lord A.D. - Notice how the horse and rider of war "is given a long sword" (translated "great" sword, "long" sword in different versions).
-- The thing about the seals of God is they are described in chapter six, each one, as a blend of what it is when 1st beginning/Opened/unsealed, and also what it is in its full blown form at 'the end'. This really does hide the vision for many days. It's like a twofold cord, these descriptions of the 7 Seals, one cord being what it is at its very beginning, and the other cord what it is at the very 'end' in its fully galloped or fully accelerated form.
- Because of this, things which occur very late upon planet earth, are described here, in chapter 6, so very early in the vision and writing. This efficiently has obscured and confused the understanding of the book. [Verses 6:12 to 7:2 is a direct cross reference to verses 13:13.]
- Therefor, the occurrence of 13:13 is thought to happen very late in the scheme of things, and, "while people watched" (on the evening news?) "it (2nd beast of chapter 13, the man and office of verses 13:11-18) made fire come down from the sky in the sight of people." Once we know these things, I don't know how we can help but consider this fire.. a new sort of fire brought from the sky occurred in 1945 over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and we can still watch it easily enough these days, if we have a mind to.
...I don't know why I got into all that :rolllol: when all I wanted to say is we don't have to metaphor it away, it only occurs, for the most part, for 45 days. With the clear signs given, it won't be hard for our kids(?) or in my case, grand kids(?) to avoid and be the ones "happy who come to the 45 days later" or that is, after the 45 days (35 days being the fulfillment of Rev 13:17,no buying or selling w/o, and the last "ten days" escalating to Rev 20:4,beheaded?
- Considering the flawed nature of humans and how we always seem to fall short so very, very often, if not always, down through history. I wouldn't be surprised if they go into and through those days not armed with the Words Jesus intended for them. Although! Praise God! :smile: Jesus and the Spirit (and Presence) of God is very able! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :banana:
This is so complicated and deep, Marie.
If you could feed it to us slowly, in baby spoons.... :girlheart:
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 04:24:36 PM
Walid Shoebat explains the mark of the beast, 666.
They thought it was 3 Greek symbols.
Then they decided it was gematria for 666.
Then they started putting 666 into the text.
But, Wallid says gematria is witchcraft. God would not use gematria to communicate with us in the Biblical text. Nor would God give us a mystery too hard to understand.
So what is it? He says it's another language other than Greek and he can read it.
It is written in Arabic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKkwMFvCXMs
That link is awesome.. I love Walid Shoebat! I'm going back and watch some more videos with him speaking. This one made perfect and veRy good sense.. and, as he says it fits today's world.. I wouldn't be surprised tho if in the doing of it, it's a tatoo or done by computer or tracking devise under the skin.. and, or behavior or mind control.. But it's the best translation of this I've ever heard... certainly fits with rev 20:4.
Quote from: MarieTherefor, the occurrence of 13:13 is thought to happen very late in the scheme of things, and, "while people watched" (on the evening news?) "it (2nd beast of chapter 13, the man and office of verses 13:11-18) made fire come down from the sky in the sight of people." Once we know these things, I don't know how we can help but consider this fire.. a new sort of fire brought from the sky occurred in 1945 over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and we can still watch it easily enough these days, if we have a mind to
I agree that 'nuclear bombs' are talked about in the Bible, in more than one place. What else could turn a city into total destruction overnight, so that nothing will ever live there again but jackals. But, I'll say this--I am not convinced they have nuclear bombs in the way they have been described to us. I decided a while ago that Japan was firebombed. Go look at the pictures. Nothing would be standing if it were nuclear, but anything that is not wood is still standing [those cities were mostly wood buildings]. And, they were populated and rebuilt again very quickly, unlike Chernobyl which is a wasteland to this day. This is not to say that they cannot spread radiation all over the place to make people sick. But, what they have described most likely does not exist, it is a Hollywood production. Although that is cold comfort considering the damage they can do with modern incendiary devices.
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 07:01:35 PM
Quote from: marie glen on January 24, 2013, 06:38:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 01:56:54 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 23, 2013, 10:27:44 PM
If you could feed it to us slowly, in baby spoons.... :girlheart:
:smile: Revelation 13:13
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
the one this thread is talking about, the '666' guy is an office:
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
...It occurred in 1945 over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
It's a mis-interpretion to see the 7 Seals of God as occurring at the very 'end'. These 7 Seals are actually for the whole 'latter' age which is the years of our Lord A.D. therefor also, Revelation 13:13 "..he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men" did not occur so very close to the 'end' as many think. But occurred in 1945 with the opening of atomic warfare. It's a direct cross reference with Rev 6:12 to 7:2 - notice how this new wind (opened) is held back / paused for a while... [verse 7:1 "four angels stand at the four corners" I believe it goes "holding back the wind.." This new wind which was the Opening of the 6th Seal, and the Opening of atomic warfare capability.. a long sword given to the 2nd horse and rider who is war.]
It was also a u.s president who first had the idea of a world body.. the League of Nations. This League expired when its head, the U.S. did not, after all, sign on. But this world body was resurrected after Rev 13:13 upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened (13:14). And when the head (the U.S.) does fully support the world body, it will give breath (authority) to the world beast/body (verse 13:15). I believe a person who has previously at the time, been a U.S. president will become Secretary General of the U.N. (As with so many things doesn't necessarily start out as 'evil' but gets used, abused, infiltrated..)
P.S/edit: when i prayed earnestly to understand Bible prophecy, what came to mind immediately was a question "what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today?" ...for one thing, a world body is what is referred to by politicians as a new world order..
" Chernobyl " Rev 6:8, "I looked, and behold, a pale horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades" (the grave) "was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth." -- this is the 4th horse and rider, pestilence including chemical.. and / also (via) wild beasts / wild governments / terrorists? When all is said and done, from the first to the last pestilence and plague of the latter age of man, including chemical, kills 1/4 of the earth.
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 04:24:36 PM
Walid Shoebat explains the mark of the beast, 666.
They thought it was 3 Greek symbols.
Then they decided it was gematria for 666.
Then they started putting 666 into the text.
But, Wallid says gematria is witchcraft. God would not use gematria to communicate with us in the Biblical text. Nor would God give us a mystery too hard to understand.
So what is it? He says it's another language other than Greek and he can read it.
It is written in Arabic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKkwMFvCXMs
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2009/03/dont_say_a_word.html - A U.N. resolution seeks to criminalize opinions that differ with the Islamic faith.
This article ends with this: "Watch what you say, because our declared intention is to criminalize opinions that differ with the one true faith. Let nobody say that they have not been warned."
http://www.humanevents.com/2012/09/25/obama-at-the-un-the-future-must-not-belong-to-those-who-slander-the-prophet-of-islam/ - Obama at the UN: "The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam"
http://www.meforum.org/477/islamism-grows-stronger-at-the-united-nations - (a beginning in earnest?)
Article: Islamism Grows Stronger at the United Nations - by David Littman, Middle East Quarterly, September 1999, pp. 59-64
David Littman, a historian, is a representative to the United Nations (Geneva) of the Association for World Education.
- "In recent years, representatives of some Muslim states have demanded, and often received, special treatment at the United Nations mostly via the Commission on Human Rights (UNCHR). As a result, non-diplomatic terms such as "blasphemy" and defamation of Islam" have seeped into the United Nations system, leading to a situation in which non-Muslim governments accept certain rules of conduct in conformity with Islamic law (the Shari`a)...
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/November/Islamic-Sharia-Law-Comes-to-Great-Britain/ - "Dec 26, 2012 – Stoning for adultery. Amputations for theft. Death for apostates. And second-class status for Christians and Jews. This is life under Sharia law and it's alive and well in, of all places, Great Britain.. .. The courts have popped up in several British cities with large Muslim populations, including Birmingham, Bradford, Manchester, and London... impoverished borough has been dubbed "The Islamic Republic of Tower Hamlets." Its first elected mayor is a Muslim who critics say has ties to extremist groups. His office declined CBN News's request for an interview. Radical Muslims have threatened women there for not covering up, and gays have been beaten in the streets... "If people are afraid of having their hands cut, don't steal," UK Islamist leader Anjem Choduary said. "If you don't want to be stoned to death, don't commit adultery." Choudary wants Sharia law to rule Great Britain... So could Sharia courts come to America? The idea sounds far-fetched to some. According to the Center for Security Policy in Washington, there have been some 50 court cases in at least 23 states that have seen conflicts between Sharia law and American state law. And four states have adopted legislation, called "American Laws for American Courts," that would protect U.S. citizens from the use of any type of foreign law, like Sharia, in the courtroom. In East London, Craig said the fight against Sharia is much more than a religious or legal issue. "It's actually a human rights thing," he said. "And we're working in partnership with non-Christians as well on this trying to bolster and strengthen the position for Muslim women.""
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 06:44:02 PM
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
--Rev 13
It says 'a man.'
"a man"
G444
ανθρωπος
anthrōpos
anth'-ro-pos
From G435 and ωψ ōps (the countenance; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: - certain, man.
But it also says count the number of the beast, so at the same time, it is many men.
Revelation 13 is talking about a specific man. So here is a man that counts his number among many men who use this symbol "666' or what Walid says it is.
So it is a beast kingdom that is run by a beast [Antichrist, with indwelt Satan.]
:2cents:
Here's the definition I see (blueletterbible.com, netbible)
From ἀνήρ (G435) and ops (the countenance, from ὀπτάνομαι (G3700)); man-faced,
i.e. a human being) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order
1b1) of animals and plants
1b2) of from God and Christ
1b3) of the angels
1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led
into a mistake or prompted to sin
1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt
and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
1g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman
This is from Vines
Man (See Also Men):
is used
(a) generally, of "a human being, male or female," without reference to sex or nationality, e.g., Mat 4:4; 12:35; Jhn 2:25;
(b) in distinction from God, e.g., Mat 19:6; Jhn 10:33; Gal 1:11; Col 3:23;
(c) in distinction from animals, etc., e.g., Luk 5:10;
(d) sometimes, in the plural, of "men and women," people, e.g., Mat 5:13, 16; in Mar 11:2; 1Ti 6:16, lit., "no one of men;"
(e) in some instances with a suggestion of human frailty and imperfection, e.g., 1Cr 2:5; Act 14:15 (2nd part);
(f) in the phrase translated "after man," "after the manner of men," "as a man" (AV), lit. "according to (kata) man," is used only by the Apostle Paul, of "
(1) the practices of fallen humanity, 1Cr 3:3;
(2) anything of human origin, Gal 1:11;
(3) the laws that govern the administration of justice among men, Rom 3:5;
(4) the standard generally accepted among men, Gal 3:15;
(5) an illustration not drawn from Scripture, 1Cr 9:8;
(6) probably = '
to use a figurative expression' (see AV, marg.), i.e., to speak evil of men with whom he had contended at Ephesus as 'beasts' (cp. 1Cr 4:6), 1Cr 15:32; Lightfoot prefers 'from worldly motives'; but the other interpretation, No. (4), seems to make better sense. See also Rom 6:19, where, however, the Greek is slightly different, anthropinos, 'pertaining to mankind;'" the meaning is as Nos. (5) and (6). *
[* From Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 139.]
(g) in the phrase
"the inward man," the regenerate person's spiritual nature personified, the inner self of the believer, Rom 7:22, as approving of the law of God; in Eph 3:16, as the sphere of the renewing power of the Holy Spirit; in 2Cr 4:16 (where anthropos is not repeated), in contrast to "the outward man," the physical frame, the "man" as congnizable by the senses; the "inward" man is identical with "the hidden man of the heart," 1Pe 3:4.
(h) in the expressions
"the old man," "the new man," which are confined to Paul's Epistles, the former standing for the unregenerate nature personified as the former self of a believer, which, having been crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6, is to be apprehended practically as such, and to be "put off," Eph 4:22; Col 3:9, being the source and seat of sin; the latter, "the new man," standing for the new nature personified as the believer's regenerate self, a nature "created in righteousness and holiness of truth," Eph 4:24, and having been "put on" at regeneration, Col 3:10; being "renewed after the image of Him that created him," it is to be "put on" in pratical apprehension of these facts.
(i) often joined with another noun, e.g., Mat 11:19, lit., "a man, a glutton;" Mat 13:52, lit., "a man, a householder;" Mat 18:23, "a certain king," lit., "a man, a king."
(j) as equivalent simply to "a person," or "one," whether "man" or woman, e.g., Act 19:16; Rom 3:28; Gal 2:16; Jam 1:19; 2:24; 3:8 (like the pronoun tis, "someone;" tis is rendered "man" in Mat 8:28); or, again (as tis sometimes signifies), "a man," e.g., Mat 17:14; Luk 13:19.
(k) definitely, with the article, of some particular person, Mat 12:13; Mar 3:3, 5; or with the demonstrative pronoun and the article, e.g., Mat 12:45; Luk 14:30. For the phrase "the Son of man" see SON OF MAN. For "the man of sin," 2Th 2:3, see INIQUITY, No. 1.
(l) in the phrase "the man of God," 2Ti 3:17, not used as an official designation, nor denoting a special class of believers, it specifies what every believer should be, namely, a person whose life and conduct represent the mind of God and fulfill His will; so in 1Ti 6:11, "O man of God." Some regard this in the OT sense as of a prophet acting in a distinctive character, possessed of Divine authority; but the context is of such a general character as to confirm the more extended designation here.
Notes:
(1) In Gal 3:28, the RV adds the italicized word "man"
("ye all are one man in Christ Jesus"), in accordance with Eph 2:15, which speaks of Jew and Gentile as becoming "one new man" in Christ. The figure is closely analogous to that of "the body." In these two passages "one" is masculine, i.e., "one person;" in Jhn 10:30; 11:52; 17:21, 22, 23, "one" is neuter, "one thing," as in 1Cr 3:8; 11:5. The first two, in Gal. 3 and Eph. 2, express vital union, present and eternal; in John 17 the union is moral, a process in course of accomplishment.
(2) For philanthropia, Tts 3:4, "(His) love toward man," see KIND, C, No. 2.
(3) In Rev 9:20, the RV translates the genitive plural of anthropos with the article, "mankind" (AV, "the men"); it might have been rendered "(the rest) of men."
I'm not saying it can't mean a man. But the vast majority of uses are mankind. I'm not quite sure where REv 13 states that this is a specific man???
I think you have to give the translators some credit, RHM. They mostly get it right. And, all of them say 'a man' in Revelation 13:18. When confronted with this phrase that they didn't understand or couldn't read, they assumed it must compute to a number because the sentence uses the phrase, compute the number, or count the number [arithmos], so this man is associated with other men by this symbol. Also we are told these other men worship the beast and they are not written in the lamb's book of life.
So I think when the translators were confronted with symbols [which they thought were Greek symbols] that didn't make sense to them, they assumed it was an actual number and based on gematria and arrived at 666 or, in some cases, 616. It makes sense they would be looking for a literal number, especially if Walid is right, and this is actually a phrase written in Arabic that would not be seen for another 600 years.
Then, it becomes a game of telephone. I can see where the number 6 might be associated with 'Man', but why the number 666 or the number 616? And,we want to identify one man in particular, so why would it refer to the number of letters in his name, adding up to 18 letters, or 666? That's going to include a huge number of people of all different types. How does that help identify him? And, what relationship would 666 have to his followers?
But, if it is not Greek at all, as Walid says, but an Arabic phrase that no one would have seen yet at the time John wrote it out [John was shown the phrase in his vision but most likely did not know what it meant so he just relayed it as it visually looked to him] then it makes more sense why it is as mysterious to John as it was to the translators.
Whatever this number or phrase is, it will be recognized by end time Christians. We have to assume this or why give it to us to identify a characteristic of the Antichrist and his followers?
This is why what Walid says is so compelling to me. When he wrote out the phrase, I recognized it. Yet, I wouldn't have recognized it until recently [last 5 years or so] because until recently it hadn't been relevant to me. I do not read Arabic. Yet this phrase is even written as graffiti now in some American cities and it is seen on the armbands and headbands of jihadists. Is Walid right? The only way to know for sure is to check what he says against the original text. I can't do that, but I have no reason to think he would make something like this up. When he saw the phrase in the original text, he said, I can read this. It is Arabic.
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8
Those who worship the beast are not written in the book of life, so they are not Christians. So it follows that those associated with this symbol of the Antichrist are not Christians, as well.
Grrffitti written on US consulate in Benghazi
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012/09/12/libyan-officials-us-ambassador-killed-in-attack/57752828/1
The mark of the beast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=820u_9Odw6M
Molly, I had written something pretty similar to this link http://eutychusnerd.blogspot.com/2010/07/mark-of-beast-is-islam-walid-shoebat.html on my phone over the weekend but lost it.
Mr. Shoebat has made many assumptions, and false statements like saying the picture is from the wrong codex that doesn't even contain REV. If you start digging in you will see that he is likely a fraud. This is coming from all sides of the spectrum (not that it necessarily makes what he is saying wrong, but tends to weaken his case).
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 24, 2013, 02:48:48 PM
666 is the number of mankind. Not A man. The word is anthropos. It speaks of flesh as man was created on 6th day.
We are the temple of God. For their to be an abomination in it and it to be a literal man he would have to go around and insert a statue of Zeus inside of each of us.
We are the holy city new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven adorned like a bride.
I agree with Sheila. Look in the mirror and you will see the beast. Paul even speaks of it IMO. We see through a glass darkly is actually we see in a mirror an enigma.
:2c:
A very wise fellow on ATS stated that 666 is the number of mankind, because we are "carbon units," as in that old Star Trek episode. Carbon has six protons, six neutrons, and six electrons.
Yes Laz, I forgot about that. (although I think Molly and I have been around this circle a few times in this thread, so I may have posted that somewhere in the past in this thread)
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 29, 2013, 06:16:06 PM
Molly, I had written something pretty similar to this link http://eutychusnerd.blogspot.com/2010/07/mark-of-beast-is-islam-walid-shoebat.html on my phone over the weekend but lost it.
Mr. Shoebat has made many assumptions, and false statements like saying the picture is from the wrong codex that doesn't even contain REV. If you start digging in you will see that he is likely a fraud. This is coming from all sides of the spectrum (not that it necessarily makes what he is saying wrong, but tends to weaken his case).
That author says 666 is Nero. Is that your position?
I disagree with you regarding Walid. I consider him an inspired speaker, raised by God for this generation.
We can agree to disagree. Count the number of [followers of] Muhammad. It is about to surpass the number of Christians.
And, according to them, you and I are 'infidels.'
Have you watched this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=820u_9Odw6M
How about this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Fif-mt4G6ZQ
No thats not my position, but what he says about Shoebats conclusions and how he came to them I agree with. Molly its not that I don't see Islam as part of the beast system. Its that I think this "evidence" is very faulty.
There are only 2 religions. "in Spirit and Truth" and all else, which is a product of the beast nature of man. The imaginations of men. :2c:
I thought the only 2 religions were 1.) you reaching up and following mans rules to get close to God (DO)and
2.) God reaching down and doing for you what you can't do for yourself bringing you close to Him(DONE)
IMO, yes, it is an enigma[mystery]..man created in the image of God,found to have a marr[mark of beast in it]
even the mystery of godlessness[void of spirit of God/another spirit/evil] and godliness[spirit of God/good
Holy] and as we have bore the image of the corrupt one[godlessness/mark of beast] so,too shall we all
bear the image of the incorruptible one.
one is from above/last Adam quickening spirit...one is from below/earthly, devilish sensual..
Gen 4;7 if you do what is right,will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right,sin is crouching
at your door[like a beast ready to devour?] IT DESIRES TO HAVE YOU.....BUT YOU MUST MASTER IT!
...then the Lord put a mark on Cain..so that no-one who found him..would kill him.........Rev 13;8 ALL inhabitants
of the earth will worship the beast[corruptible image/old Adam that must die/sin in flesh condemned]
......God makes of the same lump..one vessel fitted for destruction[sin in flesh/marred/mark]
and another vessel for noble use....show forth His grace and mercy..even in the midst of His righteous judgement.
Ecc 3;18 I also thought,as for men,God tests them so that they may see they are like the beasts
all go to the same place,all come from dust,and to dust all return[speaking of the nature of the beast born
from below,sensual,devilish] For from dust you were taken and unto dust ye shall return
You must be born again from Above[in the image of the son of God/not some beast] and you must return
unto your Father and my Father..
two very distinct diverse creations...one old...one new....of one is our death and of one is our eternal life.
for the creature was subjected to vanity,not of it's own will,but by the will of Him who subjected it...
in order that the whole creation could be set free into the glorious liberty[you must rule over it] of
THE SONS OF GOD..
now as there is many members but one body in the spiritual body of Christ..the new man...so,too the old adam
man of sin has it's spiritual body and head[prince of this world] and kingdom of darkness and form of religion
and lying prophets and corrupt worldly arrangements.
so, there have been many anti-christs,beasts,false prophets,devils/liars raised up in the image and likeness
of the corrupt one since the beginning...coming up out of the sea and the earth..and manifesting in the
masses of mankind in the corrupt image. BUT THE SAME SPIRIT IS IN ALL THE MANIFESTATIONS..
Prince of this world,False prophet,beastly nature.........in greed,maliceand,coveting dominion..it seeks to
rule over the earth and sit as god. and many are the masses blinded by the god of this world.
thus wars and desolations shall continue until the end....and he will pitch his royal tents between
the seas at the beautiful holy mountain.YET HE WILL COME TO HIS END AND NO-ONE WILL HELP HIM
IMO, the old name..is not written in the Lambs book of life..for those who received the 'mark' can not live....but
the NEW creature can..and it receives the NEW name. this principle was shown as saul/Paul and Jesus
further revealed it in Rev 2;17 I will also give him a white stone[a place prepared in the fallen temple of His body
as He raises it up into the heavens] WITH A NEW NAME WRITTEN ON IT,KNOWN ONLY TO HIM WHO RECEIVES IT.
a new creature,a new name, a new nature...I make ALL THINGS NEW.
Quote from: Sheilaman of sin has it's spiritual body and head[prince of this world] and kingdom of darkness and form of religion
Prince of this world,False prophet,beastly nature.........in greed,maliceand,coveting dominion..it seeks to
rule over the earth and sit as god. and many are the masses blinded by the god of this world.
Sheila, you seem to be talking somewhat in generalities, but just to clarify, could you agree that the god of this world is a spiritual entity called Satan? And, that at the end of the age he will indwell a man bodily, just as Jesus was the fulness of the Godhead bodily? Because everything that God does, Satan mimics and counterfeits, to deceive those who will not accept the truth.
I see the world to date as being 'his story,' the story of Satan, not man, in the affairs of men.
In the next age, IMO, it will be the story of Christ in the affairs of men.
In particular, when I started reading in the Bible that Israel will be surrounded by and invaded by a hostile army at the end of the age[which unlike others, I read literally], I realized this will be the culminating chapter of 'his story.'
well,Molly....IMO, he already did..when he entered Judas body....and there are many Judas Priests to this day..
who betray Christ for mamon. No doubt,Satan and his offspring are in high positions,we have but to look
at one of the temptations of Christ,to see that.Many men have sold their soul to the devil for fame fortune
power. But I actually believe he walks in men..as God's Holy spirit dwells and walks in men. In Job,he
speaks to God about roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.. seeking who he may devour problably
God then asked if he had considered His servant Job? So,ultimately satan is more concerned with the trying of th
e righteous...and when he rises up a kingdom/government/religious entity..it is to try and make it hard on those
who are God's in truth.. For this reason I have said..is it any wonder that at the birth of the manchild that a dragon
is ready to devour it? same as at Jesus birth with Herod and the mass slaughter of male children in Bethleham.
So,he worked through 3 wise men,unwittingly,Herod,Pharisee's sadducees,High Priest,Judas,Pilate
Roman nation etc..to get the job done.
the hour of trial shall come upon the entire inhabited earth..the hour of darkness. Rev 3;10 since you have
kept my command to endure patiently,I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon
the entire world to test those who live on the earth.
I also,see the muslim terrorist theme of worldly domination and Islam onweworld religion as a great dark
cloud coming up over the land. But I feel the same with NWO with one government/merchants........
Ezekiel 38;9 you will be like a cloud covering the land...look how God deals with it..every man's hand
and sword against his brother[satan divided against himself..his house can not stand]..on the mountains
of Israel you will fall...I will send fire on Magog..........
so,while I agree in principle,satan may inhabit a specific person........every man's hand against his brother
is how he will fall...for the attempt at union to surround the camp of the Holy city..resultsin this.
and even Ishmael as a wild ass of a man with his hand againsteveryone and everyone's hand against him
and he will live in hostility towards all his brothers.. one has but to look at all the wars ever fought on this earth
to recognize 'Ishmael' the one born after the manner of flesh/from the one born of the spirit/Jerusalem/peace.
I have known some 'wildass men' in my time..and they didn't come from the ME. They want to posess,
they want to control,they want to use,they stir up strife,faultfind,backbite,hate,rob,kill,cheat,lack all sense
of morals. and this all here in sw Indiana... and so..the one borne after the manner of flesh[from below]
persecutes the one borne of the promise[from above] and the enmity between the seeds/the warring
will continue........the serpents seed will bruise the woman's seed in the heel..and the womans seed
will crush the head of the serpent. And man..which bears the image of them both[in the flesh] will
wrestle not flesh and blood..but principalities and powers in high places...
Holywood has made many movies[Omen etc] on the mistaken premise that satan would be born of a woman
or dog? satan is death..and that is all he can give..to infect like a parasite something already alive..and
bring death to it. GOD'S SPIRIT IS LIFE..the Contrast spirit is death...thus death's head is crushed beneath
the heel of the promised seed of eternal life...
Wow Sheila!!!
Awesome stuff!!!
cannabalism increasing worldwide...from zombie attacks,to father killing and eating children in North Korea..
to christians and muslims killing and eating one another in Nigeria[Jos]........
Say whaaaa??
Zombie attacks? Metaphorically speaking of... ? Did a father literally eat his kids or is that also a metaphor? (If I watched or read the news would it make more sense lol??)
literal flesh eating,Lomarah..type in using google chrome search. Christians roast and eat muslims in Jos,Nigeria
best I can tell the 'christians cook theirs' .
a north korean father literally ate his children. then there is the crazed mad zombie like attacks..also
a recent one in China. Signs of the times.? demonic maddness......
:eek:
That is WHACKED OUT!
i know :sigh:..
Quote from: lomarah on January 30, 2013, 01:09:59 AM
Say whaaaa??
Zombie attacks? Metaphorically speaking of... ? Did a father literally eat his kids or is that also a metaphor? (If I watched or read the news would it make more sense lol??)
In Miami, no less.
If you watched or read the news, it would make no sense.
That's because it makes no sense. Zombies?
[That Sheila doesn't miss a trick, though.]
Sheila had said Father told her it was getting painful up there... goodness I can't imagine. :( :( :(
Does anyone here believe that Jesus might be returning in 2015-2016 Jubilee [besides me]?
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
--Luke 21:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLMgq_-x1ws
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.
--2 Tim 3
and the latest... Gays don't like what the Bible has to say about the lifestyle so they are coming out with their somewhat modified version of the scripture to make it seem like God thinks it's not really a bad sin, kinda like a white lie i guess.
Oh... the name of their "bible?"
The Queen James Version.... seriously. They think it was appropriate cause king James may have been referred to as queen James because he is alleged to have a homosexual bent.
In her heart she boasts,I sit as Queen..I am not a widow, and I will never mourn........
.....God will save all men...and make all things NEW....and these new creatures will be sons in His image.
I am by no means denying that homosexuality is wrong, or all that what is happening today in the world is not terrible and scary, but hasn't what is happening and homosexuality been around
and has risen it's ugly head to cause this same speak at different times in the generations? Paul spoke of it....but who is the cause? And does not the Lord work it all out for good? I was given to stop
giving myself to the worries and troubles that arise in my personal life as well as in the world, to look to Him and the Good. What is happening in the world and the concerns in my personal
life drove me crazy with anxiety, until I came to know all this will be, and I, me, am totally helpless to do anything save trust in Him and know that He will bring it to HIS end. Have faith. :HeartThrob:
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
30.6% obesity USA population.
These stats for obesity actually paint a picture that is better than reality. If you leave children out of the numbers, the percentage of obese adults is somewhat higher, and the percentage of overweight adults is considerably higher.
One of the major factors contributing to this is poor nutrition (particularly the high availability of cheap junk food and pervasiveness of high fructose corn syrup), and there is a good chance that this is also a factor in the high rates of mental illness, crime, and mass shootings in the US.
I cut the above a National Statistic .
These Gluttons refuse to call sin sin,for even the slightest mention of Fat people
stirs there radical agenda.
These Fat people are the number one cause of Death with our children.
I heard that when you go to there church they take your kids down stairs.
They then feed them juice and cookies.
The Fact that more children will die of Gluttony than ever before must be a sign
of something that is going to get worse .We must stop these people.
When we let them get Married it only makes the problem worse
Luke 21:31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
What are 'these things'? These things are all the events mentioned in Luke 21 and Mat 24. In Mathew 24, Jesus points us to the book of Daniel and the time of Jacob's trouble, the great Tribulation.
"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
--Luke 21:32
Who is 'this generation'?
"this generation" is the generation that sees the rebirth of Israel in the land. This is that generation that will not pass until all is fulfilled. We are this generation. We are the final generation of this age.
"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
--Mat 24:32
What is the fig tree? The nation of Israel is the fig tree.
[Hosea 9:10] "When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree."
the Lord showed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord. 2 One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten. [Jer 24]
"Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah."6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land.
(Jer. 24:5, 6).
In the latter days, he will return Israel to its land. Then shall the nations of the earth come against her and the rage will come up in his face and he will fight for Israel.
Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.'" [Eze 37:28]
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 06:08:46 PM
Does anyone here believe that Jesus might be returning in 2015-2016 Jubilee [besides me]?
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
--Luke 21:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLMgq_-x1ws
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.
--2 Tim 3
I know that WW thinks it's a possibility that the end will come that year.
I've been hearing things about the Jubilee this year. Can anyone explain how we know that's when the Jubilee is? Thanks.
Quote from: lunarabbit on January 31, 2013, 11:28:17 PM
I've been hearing things about the Jubilee this year. Can anyone explain how we know that's when the Jubilee is? Thanks.
Here's one explanation. I'm not saying he's right, but the Jews call 1966-1967 a Jubilee year so the 6 day war when they recaptured Jerusalem happened in a Jubilee year. That makes 2015-2016 the next, and many say, the last, Jubilee year.
2015--the 70th Jubilee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKCeY4ntS6E
Here's another explanation. This is a longer video but well worth watching.
Daniel's Timeline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czHNJHmkgr0
Jesus is my Jubilee :o)
All debts forgiven, All slaves set free, Every inheritance restored, No work allowed, Yea, That is the acceptable year of the Lord!
YEAH! :dsunny:
I especially like the no work part. I think it is symbolic of our not being allowed to work for our salvation. :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 01, 2013, 06:10:29 AM
I especially like the no work part. I think it is symbolic of our not being allowed to work for our salvation. :Peace2:
Works for me. :laughing7:
yea
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 01, 2013, 06:10:29 AM
I especially like the no work part. I think it is symbolic of our not being allowed to work for our salvation. :Peace2:
Yea, thats what I was talking about. That and laboring diligently to enter His rest. HAHAHAHAHA!
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
--Luke 4
That's where he closed the book to declare the fulfillment of his first coming. And, this is where the passage continues and how his second coming will be fulfilled.
...and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
--Isaiah 61
:banana: :banana: :banana: Wooooooooooo!!! :banana: :banana: :banana:
Quote from: lunarabbit on January 31, 2013, 11:28:17 PM
I've been hearing things about the Jubilee this year. Can anyone explain how we know that's when the Jubilee is? Thanks.
Here's a shortened version of Daniel's timeline.
What I find most compelling about Jubilee years is this.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that
he also is flesh: yet his days shall be
an hundred and twenty years.[Gen 6]
If 120 years is 120 Jubilee years,
and there is a Jubilee every 50 years [Lev 25:10],
120 x 50=6000 years.
Bible says civilization will last 6000 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE8e6BA4xzQ
Jubilee:
The restitution of all things back to their rightful owner [Jesus!]
The freeing of all slaves [us!]
:banana: :banana: :banana:
You were bought for a price. Don't become anyone's slaves.--1 Cor 7:23
Wow, very interesting. Thanks guys. It's mind blowing how many layers one verse can have. The Bible is amazing.
boulder size hail falls on villages in India..kills 9...livestock killed
ps thats on signs of the times site sott. unable to do links..sorry :sigh: pictures on site.
Quote from: Molly on February 01, 2013, 04:44:27 PM
Quote from: lunarabbit on January 31, 2013, 11:28:17 PM
I've been hearing things about the Jubilee this year. Can anyone explain how we know that's when the Jubilee is? Thanks.
Here's a shortened version of Daniel's timeline.
What I find most compelling about Jubilee years is this.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
[Gen 6]
If 120 years is 120 Jubilee years,
and there is a Jubilee every 50 years [Lev 25:10],
120 x 50=6000 years.
Bible says civilization will last 6000 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE8e6BA4xzQ
Jubilee:
The restitution of all things back to their rightful owner [Jesus!]
The freeing of all slaves [us!]
:banana: :banana: :banana:
You were bought for a price. Don't become anyone's slaves.
--1 Cor 7:23
Molly, you nailed it! This is all laid out in the book
Secrets of Time by Stephen E. Jones. Given what you posted, you may have it. Seventy Jubilee cycles just don't get us all the way to 6,000 years.
Quote from: sheila on February 01, 2013, 06:02:21 PM
boulder size hail falls on villages in India..kills 9...livestock killed
SERIOUSLY?!? Now that's a sign if there ever was one!!!!
Those balls of hail are supposed to get bigger and more frequent if what Hall wrote on his site is correct. (And he wrote this years ago after hearing about it from the Lord...)
Laz, I don't have that book and it seems to be out of print. I might be able to get a used copy. Thanks!
Oh Molly.....I just watched the video 6000 yrs you put up. 4 nights ago Gabriel came to me..and told me
3 times...'you should not be alone"! I've been praying for understanding..and your video answered it.
in Genesis 6;3 that speaks of man being alone/as in mortal flesh.......three times could possiblably mean 3 years..or
just confirmation. PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!
Quote from: sheila on February 01, 2013, 07:08:04 PM
Oh Molly.....I just watched the video 6000 yrs you put up. 4 nights ago Gabriel came to me..and told me
3 times...'you should not be alone"! I've been praying for understanding..and your video answered it.
in Genesis 6;3 that speaks of man being alone/as in mortal flesh.......three times could possiblably mean 3 years..or
just confirmation. PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!
The end is in three years??? Is that what you're saying??? Can I jump for joy???
I believe so,Lomarah. that which is mortal shall be clothed with immortality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: lomarah on February 01, 2013, 07:21:12 PM
Quote from: sheila on February 01, 2013, 07:08:04 PM
Oh Molly.....I just watched the video 6000 yrs you put up. 4 nights ago Gabriel came to me..and told me
3 times...'you should not be alone"! I've been praying for understanding..and your video answered it.
in Genesis 6;3 that speaks of man being alone/as in mortal flesh.......three times could possiblably mean 3 years..or
just confirmation. PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!
The end is in three years??? Is that what you're saying??? Can I jump for joy???
wow! :mshock:
I can't stop crying tears of joy. And the Comforter was here. Sort of like hugging me, saying it's almost over. I can't put it into words. You know how it is.
I am so ready. So much pain here. I can't stop crying.
I KNOW.....THE OIL OF JOY FOR THOSE WHO MOURN OVER ALL THAT IS DONE :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob:
Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD's anger has passed.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
[Isaiah 26:19-21]
I feel like jumping for joy knowing that the new,average live span is going to be 120 years.
oh...it's going to be a tad longer than that..daj :banana: :banana: :banana: can you say
IMMORTAL LIFE??
Oh Lord, may it be true!!! :hithere:
I finally had time to watch that vid... WOW!!!
Thank you for posting that Molly!!
Oh, I just realized that video is from 9Nania. She makes good sounding videos, but has a lot wrong. She said the rapture would take place in August of 2012 because of the signs in the sky, which didn't happen...so...you know what the Bible says about false prophets and date setters. I'd take the video with a huge grain of salt.
:dunno2:
well actually....I didn't finish watching the video...and still haven't. I am just testifying to Gabriel's message
'you should not be alone" stated 3 times to me and Genesis 6;3. I will have to go finish watching it.
Yeah luna, I took a look at some of her other stuff as well and there are certainly things that aren't kosher. But the dates and info in this vid add up and Sheila's rev bears witness. There have been many who I read who hear directly from the Lord who say the time is very short (as in a few years). I normally don't buy into end times things. But when the Lord is speaking to His people I do lol!
Very exciting stuff!
I thought it was a sweet little video for those who don't want to slog through the more complicated videos. She's pulling stuff from other sources, like Daniel's timeline and the work on the back to back blood moons done by Mark Biltz, etc. So I wouldn't call her a prophet as much as a reporter based on this video. Other people have done the work, but she did a nice job of reporting it I think.
Mark Biltz back to back blood moons and solar eclipses on 2014-2015 Israel feast days
There will be four back to back blood moons---passover and tabernacles, 2014, and passover and tabernacles 2015. This is something which is very, very rare. Also, two total eclipses of the sun on Nissan 1 and on Tabernacles in 2015.
This is a short video. To find out the details look at his longer videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axrEbaC8YGU
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Mat 24
yep....I just finished watching the longer video' :iagree:s.
We will know soon, I reckon. Eyes on Israel.
For those with 2 hours to watch, I consider this the gold standard of prophecy videos.
Daniel's Timeline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuTb99tBC0c
Well I have come to an understanding, if it's on the www and especially on a youtube, unless it is a song that one likes, the information is but for commercial use. In other words..... bunk. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 02, 2013, 04:35:44 AM
Well I have come to an understanding, if it's on the www and especially on a youtube, unless it is a song that one likes, the information is but for commercial use. In other words..... bunk. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Um...does that include www.tentmaker.org???
I would spect so. But, what I meant and I am sure you know, that just cause something is shown on youtube or the www. don't make it so. I have, or at least when I found this forum, considered that what is offered, was from study and a desire to learn.
That learning, giving and coming from others who were given to the Word of God and not the wisp and wonder of when the world will end, or the day, date, and time of the Saviors return(which no one knows)as a possessed degree, that leaps above others, those others[as myself]who within their heart desire to understand the Word of God and not attempt to figure out the Word of God.
As i have stated before, prophecy is not something that comes out of what we think we have figured out(because of the times we exist in) or what we think He meant...prophecy does not come from the human imagination or a puzzle we think we may have put together. Prophecy comes from the Lord, to one of His creatures(human beings) to give a word, a burden in a sense, to proclaim to the world[His creation] some event that will manifest His Work.
For me, IMO, the prophecies that are offered today are just more of the vanipee's, lindsay's, or anyone else who have gained money. Stick to the Bible and LEARN. Yeah it's my opinion, how i think and it's just me. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
I forgot to add, prophecy is not a puzzle we, man, us..that is given for us to to figure out when, where, and how, just because we read, and guess, or we put together our thoughts as to how it will be. Prophecy is a WORD that the Lord gives.
And, IMO, when one of His humans receives it to give, well i will just leave it at that. Yes, I do believe in prophecy. :HeartThrob:
Jesus' Warning to "Watch" - Just What Did He Mean?
article by Don Hooser
Jesus and the apostles exhort us to actively "watch"! We need to understand all that they meant and the wide-ranging implications. Our survival and salvation could depend on that understanding and action!
The apostle Paul wrote to the Christians in Corinth, "Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong" (1 Corinthians 16:13). The rest of the verse is clear, but what does "watch" mean?
Paul wasn't telling us to be passive spectators—of entertainment or anything else. He meant something far different.
This article focuses on New Testament scriptures with the verb "watch"—important scriptures that are often misunderstood, ignored and neglected.
How important is it that we "watch"? Consider this: The biblical command to watch is several times coupled with the command to pray. Is prayer important? Extremely so! And so is the command to watch!
Watch means to stay wide awake
When the New Testament commands us to "watch," it is usually the translation of one of two Greek words ( gregoreuo and agrupneo ), which have similar meanings—to "stay awake" and to "be sleepless." They are usually meant in the metaphorical and spiritual sense—to be vigilant and on guard, fully awake, aware, alert and intently focused—with several applications and implications.
In Matthew 26:37-40 [37] And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
[38] Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
[39] And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
[40] And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
the meaning of "watch" [here] is primarily physical. Jesus was chiding the disciples for not remaining awake during the hour preceding His arrest.
But what Jesus next said to Peter had a deeper, spiritual meaning: "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing [i.e., intentions are good], but the flesh [mere human willpower] is weak'" (Matthew 26:41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
It is spiritual watching coupled with prayer that gives one the strength to survive temptations and difficult situations.
"Awake to righteousness, and do not sin"
(1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.). Being awake is equated with righteousness and not sinning. Paul was writing to the church at Corinth, which shows that even true Christians can be spiritually asleep to varying degrees.
Paul also wrote: "And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed" (Romans 13:11).
In other words, the closer we draw to the second coming of Christ, the more urgent it is that we awake out of spiritual sleep! Indeed, we have entered the fearful end-time years that are the grand climax of human civilization. If ever there was a time to pay attention and get prepared, it is now!
Furthermore, none of us knows when he or she will die. Being spiritually prepared for the end of life should be our top priority.
Watching means properly using our minds
God gave us marvelous minds to use —to study, learn, observe, analyze, judge and think.
Life is time. To waste time is to waste life. Many people are mentally lazy—wasting a tragic amount of time on the trivial and temporal, mundane and materialistic. Many squander countless hours vegetating in front of their TV or computer seeking only to be entertained.
Real readers are becoming rare. A society becomes shallow and superficial when most citizens rely too much on pictures
and images rather than words. In-depth learning requires language.
It is quite significant that God's true religion is based on spoken and written messages that were compiled into what we call the Bible. God's people are to be "people of the Book." In contrast, most pagan religions emphasize images, idols, symbols and rituals.
You see, God wants His people to zealously read and study, to think and meditate. He wants us to be well-informed regarding the major geopolitical, cultural and spiritual issues and events of our time. God deplores ignorance, indifference and being "dull of hearing"
(Hebrews 5:11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.).
This is where the Bible comes in, providing the essential framework for a godly worldview. The Bible is God's divine revelation of absolute truth, which is just as relevant today as it ever was.
Because of this, the Bible should be the prism, lens and filter by which we can accurately perceive and judge all other information. It enables us to develop a godly worldview—the framework and foundation by which we can accurately interpret all that is going on in the world. We can then understand our confusing world scene with amazing clarity, sense and logic!
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Sadducees for their hard-hearted mind-set. If they had not had evil attitudes and had believed the Scriptures, they would have been able to "discern the signs of the times" and to realize the Messiah had come
(Matthew 16:1-3 [1] The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
[2] He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
[3] And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?).
We need knowledge of end-time prophecy
To know where to focus our attention, we particularly need to know the Bible prophecies of the end time, especially the prophecies surrounding the second coming of Christ.
We are to "eagerly wait for" Christ's return, not just passively wait around (Hebrews 9:28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.). Jesus was emphatic that His followers should hope for His return, expect His return and pray for His return! In addition, our enthusiastic anticipation and excitement will intensify as we see more and more world events fulfilling Bible prophecies—especially those that point to the increasing nearness of Christ's return.
Note the watching, waiting, anticipation and preparedness in the following passage: "Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching " (Luke 12:35-36 [35].).
Jesus concluded His message by saying, "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (verse 40).
Much later, Jesus echoed that point: "Behold, I am coming as a thief [meaning suddenly and unexpectedly ]. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame" (Revelation 16:15) Wearing garments, especially white raiment, symbolizes a good spiritual condition
(Revelation 3:1-5 [1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.). We must not be caught undressed—unprepared.
Christ's all-important end-time prophecy
Jesus gave a crucial end-time prophecy shortly before His crucifixion, recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. It's valuable to study this prophecy often.
Jesus' disciples wanted to know what to watch for. "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matthew 24).
Significantly, the very first thing that Jesus responded with was a somber warning of what to watch out for: "Take heed that no one deceives you" (verse 4). Sadly, many are deceived. Many who call themselves Christians are deceived into thinking that Christ will not literally return to the earth, even though He repeatedly promised He would, or that He will return in some manner different from what He told us.
In the rest of the chapter, Jesus answers their questions by revealing the future key trends and conditions for which it would be critically important to watch.
Jesus then urged His disciples to "watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into" (verses 42-43).
After Jesus' resurrection, He again said, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority" (Acts 1:7).
However, in spite of Jesus' statements, countless people have foolishly tried to predict the time of His second coming. It is because we don't know the timing that we must keep watching.
Continuing in Matthew 24, Jesus said, "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (verse 44) Watching reminds us and motivates us to remain ready. That's the main idea!
Shortly after, Jesus warns of the temptation to think, "My master is staying away a long time" (verse 48, New International Version). When a person thinks he has more than enough time to get ready, he is seriously tempted to let down spiritually (see verses 49-51).
The parable of the 10 virgins
(Matthew 25:1-13 [1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
[2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
[4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
[6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
[7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
[8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
[9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
[13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.)
emphasizes staying spiritually prepared and ready. Keeping one's lamp filled with oil represents staying close to God and staying filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus concluded the parable by saying, "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming" (verse 13).
Watching, praying, staying sober and watching out for enemies
In Mark's and Luke's accounts of Jesus Christ's prophecy, we see that Jesus connected watching with praying. There is much to pray about regarding the present and the future. Watching helps our praying, and praying helps our watching.
Mark records Jesus saying: "Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time [of Christ's coming] is. It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch" (Mark 13:33-34 ;see also verses 35-37).
Christ was quite emphatic here in commanding us to do four things:
1. Take heed to what He had just said.
2. Watch for the signs He had outlined.
3. Pray regularly and earnestly so that we stay close to God.
4. Keep doing God's work!
In Luke's account, Jesus tells us that "when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near" (Luke 21:31). Then He warns about not letting "that Day come on you unexpectedly" (verse 34).
Jesus concludes by saying, "Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36).
"All these things" refers to all that is recorded in this chapter, including the "great distress in the land and wrath upon this people" (Luke 21:23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.). Mark uses the term "tribulation" and Matthew says "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21).
Of course, Jesus did not mean that we are to only focus our prayers on our own survival and salvation. He meant that if we keep watching our spiritual condition and world events and praying for the Kingdom of God and for all that God tells us to pray about, we will be changing, repenting and accepting Christ's sacrifice and help. Then we will be accounted worthy to escape the end-time tribulation and to be with Christ in His Kingdom!
Paul urged that we pray "for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence" (1 Timothy 2:1-2 )
You can learn more about the connection between watching and praying in Ephesians
6:18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Colossians 4:2Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;
and 1 Peter 4:7But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
And watching is sometimes connected with staying spiritually sober, meaning sober-minded (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8 [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
[8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
2 Timothy 4:5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
1 Peter 1:13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
4:7; 5:8). This includes staying alert to our own spiritual condition, as mentioned.
Some scriptures about watching emphasize watching out for spiritual dangers and enemies such as "savage wolves," deceivers who want to take advantage of God's "flock" of followers
(Acts 20:29-31 [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.).
Peter warns us, "Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8:).
Staying aware of the powerful behind-the-scenes role of Satan and his demons enables us to understand the atrocious evil and madness of this world. It also enables us to "resist" them (James 4:7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you..).
Mistaken attitudes that entrap Christians
In light of the above, we see that in addition to concern we should have in personally drawing close to God and over what is happening in God's Church, we are clearly also to watch, listen and read to keep up with world news, events, conditions and trends.
In doing so, we should focus on news that is significant rather than sensational. Let your knowledge of end-time prophecy guide you in your selections. If you're quite busy, and many of us are, still make "watching" a high priority and dedicate time for it.
In spite of Jesus' command, many Christians don't stay well informed. Why? We can name several reasons.
Some feel that paying serious attention to news is not "spiritual" enough. But true spirituality is based on obeying our Master, Jesus Christ, who commanded us to watch!
Some people ignore news because it's mostly bad news that interferes with feeling happy and comfortable. But that's choosing escapism over facing reality and obeying Christ's command to "deny" yourself (Luke 9:23And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.). We are not to selfishly shut our eyes and hearts to the suffering of others, becoming indifferent, complacent or fatalistic.
People get depressed when they feel helpless. But by watching and praying, we are strengthened. We can help others to understand what's happening, plus we are more effective helpers with God's work in other ways!
A Christlike attitude is one of sympathy, empathy and compassion for your fellow countrymen and for all humanity. Jesus said, "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted" (Matthew 5:4.). If we grieve for others, God will comfort us in this life and much more in the next life.
Our God-ordained responsibility is to watch and pray. Ignorance comes from ignoring, and God does not want us to be ignorant and "in darkness"
(see 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
[6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
[8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
[10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.).
Our Master and role model Jesus Christ certainly understood the issues, politics and personalities of His day. We should do likewise.
At the same time, we must avoid the mistake of going to the other extreme—studying world affairs, history and even conspiracy theories more than the Bible. Without a sound understanding of God's Word and a dedication to live by it, little else matters.
Will you become one of God's watchmen?
God called the prophet Ezekiel to be a "watchman" to the nation of Israel to warn them to repent of their wicked ways or else suffer dire consequences (Ezekiel 3:17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.). God told Ezekiel that He would hold him accountable—that if he didn't warn the people he would share the guilt for their suffering (33:1-6).
So this is another application of Christ's command to "watch." He means for us to act as watchmen! How can we best do that?
First, we must strive to be "the light of the world" by being a godly example for others to follow (Matthew 5:14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid).
Second, we must study the Bible so that when people ask us important questions, we'll be prepared to give them biblical answers (1 Peter 3:15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:). Also we should stay well-informed regarding world affairs so we'll be able to help them understand those events from a biblical perspective.
Third, we must learn how God is using His Church to "go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation" (Mark 16:15.). We should learn how we can support and be a part of that great collective commission of "preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God" (Mark 1:14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,).
The role of the Church has some similarity to the role of the Old Testament prophets. They taught the godly standards of good versus evil, the promise of God's blessings on those who do right, and the warning of God's punishments on those who do wrong.
The word gospel means good news, and the true gospel includes the wonderful news that Jesus Christ will soon return to give us true peace on earth! And before that, God will give forgiveness and protection to those who repent of their sins and make the commitment to obey and serve Him.
Jesus told us to regularly pray to God, "Your kingdom come" (Matthew 6:10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.). How can we convince others of the urgent need for God's Kingdom if we can't explain what's wrong with the present world?
This magazine is part of the Church's effort to be God's watchman to the world. With each issue, some of the articles bring up-to-date reports on significant world events and trends and explain how they tie in with the Bible prophecies of the end time. We are glad you are reading and learning.
Keep watching! Perhaps the best summary of this subject is this sobering warning from Jesus Christ in Mark 13:35-37
"Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning—lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!"
http://www.ucg.org/bible-study/jesus-warning-watch-just-what-did-he-mean/
well, ok, I wanted to respond to Micah's accusation of 'bunk!' [which accusation he seems to have since removed] but I really didn't have the energy to write up everything that was on my heart, so I prayed on it, and the above article was presented to me.
His yoke is easy because somebody else has already done all the work! :winkgrin:
Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them.
--Luke 12:37
Thanks....I'm off to the bank :dsunny:
You fell off the bunk?
No, I took Don Hooser's word to the armory.
Molly,I think that was a very nice article. Also,I have watched the longer video...and I for
one will be watching. I have marked on my calender some of the dates from the long video
and I will be watching the world/news/myself.
I have had dreams and visions given me...that it was fourty years before I come to know what they
meant or signify...and I do not want to misrep a word of God by a 'personal' interpretation.
But, I do know this..what was told me is not a lie..and means what God means by it..and
will not return to Him void.
Sheila do you have many of your dreams and visions written down?
well, just for the last few years I try too.....before that I never did.Luke 2;19 but Mary
treasured up these things and pondered them in her heart. It is just as timely today
with the deliverance of the manchild...that we treasure up 'words in the holy spirit' given to us.
Amen. :HeartThrob:
Hoo is Don Hooser?
He's the guy that wrote the article Molly put up,EW
thx.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 02, 2013, 04:51:46 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 02, 2013, 04:35:44 AM
Well I have come to an understanding, if it's on the www and especially on a youtube, unless it is a song that one likes, the information is but for commercial use. In other words..... bunk. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Um...does that include www.tentmaker.org???
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 02, 2013, 06:35:13 AM
I would spect so.
So just to be clear. You're saying Tentmaker is bunk and only for commercial purposes? Or was it something else you really preferred to say? Thanks.
Quote from: sheila on February 03, 2013, 06:42:59 PM
Molly,I think that was a very nice article. Also,I have watched the longer video...and I for
one will be watching. I have marked on my calender some of the dates from the long video
and I will be watching the world/news/myself.
I have had dreams and visions given me...that it was fourty years before I come to know what they
meant or signify...and I do not want to misrep a word of God by a 'personal' interpretation.
But, I do know this..what was told me is not a lie..and means what God means by it..and
will not return to Him void.
Thanks, Sheila. It gets lonely up here on the wall. :friendstu:
And, please share your visions and dreams with us when you feel it appropriate.
Isaiah 62:6
On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have set watchmen; all the day and all the night they shall never be silent. You who put the Lord in remembrance, take no rest, 7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2013, 01:38:50 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 02, 2013, 04:51:46 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 02, 2013, 04:35:44 AM
Well I have come to an understanding, if it's on the www and especially on a youtube, unless it is a song that one likes, the information is but for commercial use. In other words..... bunk. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Um...does that include www.tentmaker.org???
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 02, 2013, 06:35:13 AM
I would spect so.
So just to be clear. You're saying Tentmaker is bunk and only for commercial purposes? Or was it something else you really preferred to say? Thanks.
Sorry - I thought I was clear (not Clear as in Scientology). I was responding to Micah, who said, "...if it's on the www...[it's] bunk." I read that, and thought, wait, Tentmaker is on the www! I just had to comment. Sometimes on forums like this, we never quite know if we're all on the same page.
:thumbsup: I appreciate your contributions :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 04, 2013, 02:18:51 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2013, 01:38:50 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 02, 2013, 04:51:46 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 02, 2013, 04:35:44 AM
Well I have come to an understanding, if it's on the www and especially on a youtube, unless it is a song that one likes, the information is but for commercial use. In other words..... bunk. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Um...does that include www.tentmaker.org???
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 02, 2013, 06:35:13 AM
I would spect so.
So just to be clear. You're saying Tentmaker is bunk and only for commercial purposes? Or was it something else you really preferred to say? Thanks.
Sorry - I thought I was clear (not Clear as in Scientology). I was responding to Micah, who said, "...if it's on the www...[it's] bunk." I read that, and thought, wait, Tentmaker is on the www! I just had to comment. Sometimes on forums like this, we never quite know if we're all on the same page.
Nah, I was tracking it Laz. My comment was in response to micah's answer to your question. Your comments were included only for reference/context.
Hoe-cake. :winkgrin:
well Laz...I just set down to my computor with pancakes to eat..and saw this post. How did you know I
was eating pancakes? :laugh:
Quote from: sheila on February 04, 2013, 03:06:51 AM
well Laz...I just set down to my computor with pancakes to eat..and saw this post. How did you know I
was eating pancakes? :laugh:
My cow! You eat at the computer too?! No, I wasn't watching thru your webcam...but if you have one, you should keep it covered when not in use.
I DO!!!! :laugh:
How the Newtown massacre became a Mind-Control television event
by Jon Rappoport
December 18, 2012
www.nomorefakenews.com
Mind control. Mass hypnosis. Operant conditioning. Brain entrainment. That's what we're talking about here.
We're so conditioned to how television covers life that we rarely step back and take notice.
In the case of massive disasters and crimes, network news rules the roost.
First, the premiere anchors, who are managing editors of their own broadcasts, give themselves the go signal. They will leave their comfortable chairs and travel to the scene of crime. "It's that big."
The anchors lend gravitas. Their mere presence lets the audience know this story trumps all other news of the moment. That's the first hypnotic cue and suggestion.
Of course, the anchors were not in Newtown, Connecticut, as reporters. They weren't there to dig up facts. Their physical presence at the Sandy Hook School and in the town was utterly irrelevant.
They could have been doing their newscasts from their studios in New York. Or from a broom closet.
But much better to be standing somewhere in Newtown. It imparts the sense of crisis to the viewing millions.
At the same time, the anchors are also there to give assurance. The subliminal message they transmit is: whatever has happened here is controllable.
The audience knows the anchors will provide the meaning and the official voice of the tragedy. The anchors are, in a way, priests, intoning their benediction to the suffering and their elegies to the dead.
This is what the audience expects, and this is what they get.
This expectation, in fact, is so deep that anything else would be considered an insult, a moral crime.
For example, suppose a network suddenly shifted gears and began interviewing police and residents and asking tough questions about contradictions in the official scenario. Suppose that became the primary focus. Suppose the tone became argumentative, in the interest of, God forbid, the truth.
In other words, in a jarring shift of perspective, the anchors began asking questions to seek answers. What a concept.
No, a priest doesn't browbeat a parishioner. He takes confession and then offers a route to redemption.
But if, by some miracle, these anchors launched a quest for truth, the whole scene would devolve into uncertainty and even chaos.
"First, there was a man in the woods. You people chased him. You pinned him down and brought him back into town. Who is he? What's his name? Where is he? Is he under questioning? What are you asking him? What gave you a clue that he might be a second shooter? Come on. Talk to us. People want to know. We aren't going anywhere. We want some answers."
This is called reporting, a foreign enterprise to these blown-dried kings and queens of media news.
"Sir, I know ABC definitively reported there was a second shooter. They said you gave them that information. Where did you get it?...No, I'm sorry, that's not an answer, that's a non-sequitur."
Those of us reporting online declare there is something amiss when the second-shooter story is dropped like a hot potato...and we are called conspiracy theorists.
Get it? Trying to ask relevant questions becomes conspiracy only because the major media didn't do their job in the first place.
"Sir, was it one gun found in trunk of the car or three? Show me the car. Yes. Let's see it. I want to get the license plate. Excuse me? The car is what, some kind of state secret? I don't think so. There are twenty dead children in that school over there, and we want to get to the bottom of this. Take me to the car."
It's called an investigation. Reporters do that.
"Sir, your newspaper ran a story about a man's body being found in Adam's brother's apartment. Then that became Adam's mother found dead in her own house here in Newtown. What exactly happened there? A mistake? Wouldn't you say that was a pretty big mistake? How did it happen? What's that? Typical confusion in the early reporting of a crime? I don't think so. Thinking a woman was a man and thinking he or she was found in New Jersey instead of Connecticut, that's not typical at all. Did police find a man's body. Speak up."
Your typical American television viewer would cringe at such demanding questions. You know why? Because he has been entrained and conditioned by news anchors to refrain from digging below the surface. In other words, that viewer is hypnotized.
"Dr. Smith and Officer Jones, we understand that this boy, who was autistic, extremely shy, who had some sort of personality disorder, went into that school and methodically carried out the slaughter of twenty-seven people. In order for him to do that, he had to reload clips at least twice after the first clip ran out. Does that make sense? We're not just talking about a violent outburst here, we're talking about a methodical massacre. How do you explain that?"
If these anchors kept on asking questions like this, do you know what would happen? The viewing audience would begin to stir, would begin to break through their hypnotic programming and wake up.
"You know, he's right. That doesn't make sense. Maybe there really was a second shooter."
"Or that Lanza kid...maybe he didn't kill anybody at all."
"What? You mean he was...set up?"
"Maybe he was a patsy."
Yes. Instead of this kind of talk being consigned to "conspiracy nuts," it actually becomes part of the evening news experience. Because reporters suddenly ask tough questions.
But no. We have to go with grief and shock. We have to lead with it and stay with it.
But that is an artificial construct. Yes, of course people in Newtown feel great shock and pain and loss and grief and horror, but the news producers are consciously moving minutes and hours of it through the tube and filtering out everything else.
They do this every time one of these events occurs, and so the audience expects it and soaks it in and, in that state of entrainment and hypnosis, the audience doesn't want anything else...because anything else would BREAK THE FLOW and the spell, and the grief would no longer have the same impact.
Newtown is presented as a television event. From the outset, the mood is funereal. It has that tinge and coloration. The audience absorbs it and wants no intrusion on it.
This is Matrix programming.
The anchor is not only the priest, but also the teacher. He/she shows the audience how to experience the event and what to feel and what to think and how to act.
One of the great skills of an anchor is the ability to present the news seamlessly. This is what those big paychecks are for: the blends and segueways and the underlying tone of sincerity that bleeds into every detail of what is being reported.
That is also hypnotic. It sets up a frequency that moves into the brains of the audience. In those brains, it's an Acceptance-frequency. It's the mark of a great news anchor, to be able to transmit that and achieve it.
Scott Pelley (CBS) has only some of that. Diane Sawyer (ABC) is decidedly inconsistent in her ability to deploy it. Brian Williams (NBC) is the contemporary master. That's why he's been called the Walter Cronkite of the 21st century.
"Sir, we have a report that police pinned a second man on the ground just outside the school. What is his name? What did you do with him? Where is he now."
No, no, no, no, no. That would crack the Acceptance-frequency like an egg and send the evening news to hell in a handbasket.
"Sir, I'm glad we finally located you. We understand you were getting ready to go to Bermuda. Now, you were Adam Lanza's doctor. What drugs did you prescribe him? Not just recently, but going all the way back to the beginning. You see, we've compiled a list of possible drugs for Asperger's and autism and depression, and of course we see that they do, in fact, induce violent behavior. Suicide, homicide. Speak up, Doctor."
The egg not only cracks in that case, the news anchor is suspended the next day, and the network releases a statement that his "breakdown" on camera was brought on by stress.
Pharmaceutical companies put him on their "to-do" list.
Yet, the questions about the drugs are exactly what a real reporter would ask. Not a "conspiracy theorist." A reporter, on the scene in Newtown.
Anyone who thinks that is absurd and out of bounds is hypnotized, programmed. That's all there is to it.
Traditional media are dying in this country. Their money is drying up. They could revitalize themselves in a New York minute if they really started COVERING stories and waking up their audience, but that's not on their agenda. They would rather die.
They are the hired hands of the elites that own this country. They are the whores sent out every day by their pimps, and they know what their job is and what it isn't.
The direction of elite television news is squeezed down the path of consciously constructing artificial events, for mass consumption experienced in a state of emotional, mental, physical, and spiritual mind-control. Those reporters who venture outside that framework are labeled fringe figures on the margins.
"Lieutenant, excuse me. Hello. Brian Williams, NBC News. I was wondering: if there had been armed employees inside the school, what are the chances the killer could have been stopped before he shot all those children? You know, people who have been trained to shoot and have concealed carry permits. Strong people who could confront a murderer."
Oh, people say, that is not a reasonable question. That's a nutcase question. That question shouldn't be asked. Why not? You want the real answer? Because it destroys the hypnotic frequency that is being delivered by the television networks. That's the real answer.
The viewer: "Don't bother me, I'm hypnotized. Don't interrupt the frequency my brain is absorbing while I'm watching the news."
And of course, under those conditions, the very last person who should interrupt the hypnotic flow is the anchor himself. He's the one who's inducing the hypnosis in the first place.
That tells you the the anchor is quite definitely NOT there to dig up new facts or perspectives himself.
Entrainment means: the brain is being bathed in rhythms and frequencies that literally train it to accept the information that is being transmitted at the same time.
In the same way, a song can succeed because the melody (carrier frequency) makes the trite lyrics seem important.
Entrainment also makes the recipient feel he is part of something larger. This is a key component. The recipient senses he is a member of a collective that is sharing a moment, an experience.
"I feel this way, and everybody else does too."
This is what substitutes, in our society, for individual experience and self-sufficiency.
But this collective is not real community. It only appears and feels that way. It is mass hypnosis. You can find that in Gregorian chants and in sermons. You can find it in political speeches.
The brain is bathed in certain harmonies and responds by Accepting.
The Globalists' language is replete with entrainment. "We are all in this together." "We are healing the planet." "All of us must strive to make a better world for our children."
It sounds right, it seems right, but it is delivered to create a collective instead of a real community. Take a few minutes and read Monsanto's literature. Read it out loud. Listen to yourself. Try to impart convincing rhythms to the phrases. All of a sudden, you're in the flow. You're practicing entrainment.
This is what network television news does. And we aren't even talking about the hypnotic effects of the physical signals that deliver the picture to the audience.
In a previous article, I pointed out that, if we are to believe the network coverage of the Newtown massacre, there wasn't one angry outraged man or woman in the town. Because we didn't see them onscreen.
The networks made sure of that. This was a conscious choice on their part.
"My son died in that school and I want to know why. I want to know exactly how the killer got in there. Who let him in? How did he get in? I WANT TO KNOW."
Sorry, that isn't part of the coverage.
It would interrupt the entrainment.
"Sorry, sir, you'll have to back away. We're doing mass hypnosis and mind control here. You're breaking the rhythm."
Instead, that angry man will be funneled to a grief counselor, who will try to soothe his outrage.
"Sir, we all have to find a way to begin the healing."
Events like Newtown are extraordinary teaching moments for television. Network newscasts display a constellation of emotions that are deemed "acceptable and appropriate" for the audience to experience. And the audience is thereby trained to mirror those emotions, to feel them, to express them, to soak in them.
It's a closed system.
This is how, incidentally, gun control works so well. It's part of the overall message. The audience, existing inside that closed system, in that state of mass hypnosis, can be pointed to exactly the wrong remedy for the tragedy.
All the network anchor has to do is frown and shake his head a little, when the subject of guns arises. That's all it takes, and the brains of the audience suck it in:
"Yes, of course. Take away the guns. If no one had guns, no one could shoot guns. No one would die. No crimes would be committed. How obvious."
The capstone that makes this puerile grand solution seem reasonable is: the police are always the good guys; we can trust them; they can have all the guns and then everything will be all right.
That message is also imparted by the big-time network new anchors. These kings and queens don't ask police the tough questions. They refrain from doing that.
In fact, the anchors ARE surrogate police chiefs. They express what the police chiefs would, if they had the anchors' skills.
The anchors do stand-ups in Newtown and give us the absolute best of what the police would if they could. And in the process, they transmit:
Entrainment. Mass hypnosis. Mind control. Operant conditioning.
It's perfect, if you want to be an android.
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/how-the-newtown-massacre-became-a-mind-control-television-event/
:iagree: It's far too late for me to be an android, as I broke the TeeVee hypnosis at age 15, and watch very little today. If I hear the POTUS on the radio, I turn it off. Newspapers and magazines? Compost! You could say I took the red pill. Most folks seem to prefer the blue, but happily they get saved anyway.
What makes the red pill red? The blood of Jesus.
BTW, and I may have mentioned this before, Jim Morrison (of The Doors), in his book The Lords and the New Creatures, quotes some Roman emperor who lamented that his subjects lacked a common neck, so that he could not decapitate them all at a single stroke. Morrison went on to state that television is this transforming agent.
I watched an interesting vidoe over at ATS to day about agenda 21 and NWO. worth watching :thumbsup:
Up here in Canarda.
We watch C.B.C for local news.
We watch the BBC for world news.
We watch FOX news for the,
sheer hilarity and entertainment.
....I hear ya!
Quote from: dajomaco on February 05, 2013, 08:51:44 PM
Up here in Canarda.
We watch C.B.C for local news.
We watch the BBC for world news.
We watch FOX news for the,
sheer hilarity and entertainment.
Just as it has been said that History is a joke we play on the past...
"News" is a joke we play on the present,
and non-Biblical "prophecy" is a joke we play on the future.
Laz, :thumbsup: :gimmefive:
The Sandy Hook Follies
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
--Lk 8:17
circling the sandy hook firehouse [notice the blocked in ambulances--I counted 8 of them]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrXPHwl11io
evidence of bluescreen compositing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjhVs5DHReM
anderson cooper bluescreen disappearing nose
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxAWy_bUuio
disappearing nose explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufa21Ltglc
The great green screen con--every network busted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DefITCzK6MI
Feeling manipulated yet?
Molly, I see that you are nobody's fool.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 05, 2013, 11:01:49 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on February 05, 2013, 08:51:44 PM
Up here in Canarda.
We watch C.B.C for local news.
We watch the BBC for world news.
We watch FOX news for the,
sheer hilarity and entertainment.
Just as it has been said that History is a joke we play on the past...
"News" is a joke we play on the present,
and non-Biblical "prophecy" is a joke we play on the future.
:thumbsup:Yeah sir! :dsunny:
These people just don't get it and never will. Why are western countries allowing this?
:umnick:
Sharia Law on the streets of London
A disturbing trend is giving rise to religious extremism in the street of London. It is called 'Muslim Patrol'. A group of young men has been posting videos on YouTube, showing them patrolling the streets of predominately Muslim areas and harassing people whom they think are not 'conforming to the practices of Islam'.
The Muslim population in UK has steadily increased in the past one decade. Statistics reveal the number of Muslims living in UK shot up by 8 percent in last 10-years.
http://daily.bhaskar.com/article/WOR-TOP----muslim-patrol----enforcing-sharia-law-on-the-streets-of-london-4172629-NOR.html
The Christian church has been in retreat from temporal matters for a long time. On the other hand, the Muslims are very mindful of their prophet's command to conquer the world for Islam. As long as the West remains liberal and secular, it is doomed.
Speaking of doom...
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
--Wm Butler Yeats
:umnick:
Bush and Obama Have Set Us Back 800 Years
NBC News reports:
Legal experts expressed grave reservations Tuesday about an Obama administration memo concluding that the United States can order the killing of American citizens believed to be affiliated with al-Qaida — with one saying the White House was acting as "judge, jury and executioner."
"Anyone should be concerned when the president and his lawyers make up their own interpretation of the law or their own rules," said Mary Ellen O'Connell, a law professor at the University of Notre Dame and an authority on international law and the use of force.
"This is a very, very dangerous thing that the president has done," she added.
***
Glenn Greenwald, a constitutional lawyer who writes about security and liberty for the British newspaper The Guardian, described the memo as "fundamentally misleading," with a clinical tone that disguises "the radical and dangerous power it purports to authorize."
"If you believe the president has the power to order U.S. citizens executed far from any battlefield with no charges or trial, then it's truly hard to conceive of any asserted power you would find objectionable,"
Senator Wyden said:
Every American has the right to know when their government believes that it is allowed to kill them.
Top constitutional law expert Jonathan Turley notes:
In plain language, [the Obama administration memo] means that [any Americans can be assassinated if] the President considers the citizens to be a threat in the future. Moreover, the memo allows killings when an attempt to capture the person would pose an "undue risk" to U.S. personnel. That undue risk is left undefined.
I think I've seen that movie before ...
Given that drones are being deployed in the American homeland, some fear that the war is coming home.
Indeed, the military now considers the U.S. homeland to be a battlefield. The U.S. is already allowing military operations within the United States. The Army is already being deployed on U.S. soil, and the military is conducting numerous training exercises on American streets.
more at...
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/02/the-white-house-is-judge-jury-and-executioner-of-both-drone-and-cyber-attacks.html
What if I think the president is a threat to national security?What if I believe he's financing al-queda through the millions we(U.S.) gave the muslim brotherhood for them to continue their despicable acts?
Besides, I think the CIA has been killing pretty much at will anyway :dontknow:
Some of those who are "in the know" call that organization "al-CIAduh," and for good reason. After the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan, and their regime (the Soviet one) collapsed, the CIA created the New Enemy. "al-Queda" translates as "The Base," meaning the database of former Mujahedeen fighters, formerly heroes to us. It was the first step to creating the present burgeoning Terror State.
When Jesus spoke about "wars and rumors of wars," I believe He was speaking of real wars and wars which were not entirely real, but mostly political/media tools for the purpose of paving the way for the rule of the anti-Christ.
good point,Laz
What scares me (before perfect love casts out all fear :laughing7:) is that I consider myself to be average or less "up" on what is happening politically. I was astonished at our last presidential election that millions of Americans must know something I don't. :dontknow:
They didn't - it was rigged, as the results indicate. Obama won everywhere he needed to in order to win the election, and the GOP candidate (Isn't it amazing how soon we forget the name of the loser?!) was only allowed to win the the areas which were irrelevant to the outcome.
IMO the outcome didnt matter. Nothing of substance would have changed if the other actor was elected. These hand puppets are dancing to the same tune.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 08, 2013, 06:48:10 AM
IMO the outcome didnt matter. Nothing of substance would have changed if the other actor was elected. These hand puppets are dancing to the same tune.
exactly, and I submit that its the same with all the worlds leaders (for the most part).
Quote from: eaglesway on February 08, 2013, 06:48:10 AM
IMO the outcome didnt matter. Nothing of substance would have changed if the other actor was elected. These hand puppets are dancing to the same tune.
Correct, but for whatever reason, the PTB wanted Obama in power.
There are two powers at work here on earth.
There is the power of the Holy Spirit.
and there is demonic power.
Human beings them selves are powerless to conspire.
We don't trust the people we conspire with
and we can't keep our mouths shut.
The people that know this have different weapons of warfare.
We don't need to know any ones name.
IMO,
In this age evil men have power to conspire with the advrsary, just as righteous men have power to conspire with God.
There is no power that is not given by God, but once given, it is given as a stewardship and judged in how it is exercized- whether in accordance with His will of whether in accordance with man's, or Satan's- Gold, silver, precious stone, wood, hay or stubble.
Love the greatest power.
Is available to all, no secret hand shakes or anything.
Just the occasional :Peace2:
uh, oh...The Pope is resigning in two weeks
First time in 600 years.
:umnick:
Pope Benedict to resign at the end of the month, Vatican says
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/11/world/europe/pope-benedict-resignation/?hpt=hp_t1
Yeah, one Pope to go...ACCORDING TO THE PROPHECY.
There - I always wanted to say that. :laughing7:
I remember feeling physically ill when Paul VI died, as it meant one less Pope till the end of time, but I'm OK with this. This age is winding up, and good riddance! :thumbsup:
Is there some kind of popal (papal?) prophecy that I don't know about? I will confess that this thread is very long and may have missed it lol.
Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes
Huh. Interesting.
now I have to set a goal of kissing the new pope's foot - to prove we are equals before God
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 11, 2013, 09:49:10 PM
Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes
Hi Laz. I looked at this, and also saw your post in the other "pope" thread about one more pope to go and then the Lord reigns. Do you (or anyone) have any solid scriptural statements about this, i.e., how the pope (their number, timing, etc.) can be clearly tied into the Lord's reign? Thanks.
Only 'Biblical' in the sense of interpretation: There will be a false prophet [an important religious figure] standing with the Antichrist. He has two horns like a lamb, so the implication is that he is a Christian leader. He represents the other beast [the false Christian church?]. Many think this will be a pope since a pope is the perfect figure to be head of a one world religion. If one thinks we start the last 3.5 years this spring/summer, as we discussed earlier, the timing of this Pope's resignation is perfect.
It's just kind of spooky and all,-- along with the Pope prophecy,-- but, then, it looks like Lazarus and I were born on the same planet, far, far, away. :laugh:
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 16:13 (KJV) "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."
Rev 19:20 (KJV) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Rev 20:10 (KJV) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
PS, according to the Pope prophecy, the last Pope's name will be Peter.
112 Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations; when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The end. --Wikipedia
Quote from: Molly on February 12, 2013, 01:36:18 AM
PS, according to the Pope prophecy, the last Pope's name will be Peter.
112 Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations; when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The end. --Wikipedia
A few interesting things; curious that the pope is predicted to "nourish the sheep". I'm not sure that sounds legit.
Also, I guess the "dreadful judge" is God? Or someone else?
"The end". Was that part of the actual prophecy? I saw that on wiki but wasn't sure. Seems to me the end of the age is only the end of some things, but really the beginning of
many things.
---------
• Ghana's Cardinal Peter Turkson and Nigeria's Cardinal Francis Arinze in the frame for Roman Catholicism's highest honour
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2277047/Pope-resigns-Ghanaian-Cardinal-tipped-bookies-favourite-job-Pontiff.html#ixzz2KdZRC05F
Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2013, 01:49:44 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 12, 2013, 01:36:18 AM
PS, according to the Pope prophecy, the last Pope's name will be Peter.
112 Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations; when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The end. --Wikipedia
A few interesting things; curious that the pope is predicted to "nourish the sheep". I'm not sure that sounds legit.
Also, I guess the "dreadful judge" is God? Or someone else?
"The end". Was that part of the actual prophecy? I saw that on wiki but wasn't sure. Seems to me the end of the age is only the end of some things, but really the beginning of many things.
---------
• Ghana's Cardinal Peter Turkson and Nigeria's Cardinal Francis Arinze in the frame for Roman Catholicism's highest honour
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2277047/Pope-resigns-Ghanaian-Cardinal-tipped-bookies-favourite-job-Pontiff.html#ixzz2KdZRC05F
yes, nourish the sheep sounds like he might be a good guy from this prophecy. Notice it mentions the tribulation and then the return of Christ.
Yes, from the prophecy, the next Pope will be the last Pope before the return of Christ. His name will be Peter.
Are you objecting to the word, 'dreadful' ?
To some it will be dreadful--
"For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many." Isaiah 66:15-16
Questioning if the prophecy is calling God that, or means someone else - and questioning this prophecy in general. I understand your point, many will dread - but in the context of this prophecy, I find it odd the pope would be described as a nourisher of the church, while God was called dreadful.
Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2013, 02:01:43 AM
Questioning if the prophecy is calling God that, or means someone else - and questioning this prophecy in general. I understand your point, many will dread - but in the context of this prophecy, I find it odd the pope would be described as a nourisher of the church, while God was called dreadful.
Oh, well, that doesn't bother me so much, we're talking someone from the 12th Century here, a Catholic Bishop. They had their own way of talking then.
Wyon attributed the list to Saint Malachy, the 12th‑century bishop of Armagh in Ireland
"Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana or Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria, each a front-runner, could become the first black pope. However, some suggest that "Victor I, from 189 to 199, was the first black pope. He was born in the Roman province of Africa, as were Pope Miltilades (311-314) and Pope Gelasius I 492-496," the Telegraph writes."
Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2013, 12:44:08 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 11, 2013, 09:49:10 PM
Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes
Hi Laz. I looked at this, and also saw your post in the other "pope" thread about one more pope to go and then the Lord reigns. Do you (or anyone) have any solid scriptural statements about this, i.e., how the pope (their number, timing, etc.) can be clearly tied into the Lord's reign? Thanks.
No "solid scriptural statements" really, just connecting the dots as usual. Seems to me that prophecy is never 100% solid anyway until after the fact.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 12, 2013, 04:44:35 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2013, 12:44:08 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 11, 2013, 09:49:10 PM
Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes
Hi Laz. I looked at this, and also saw your post in the other "pope" thread about one more pope to go and then the Lord reigns. Do you (or anyone) have any solid scriptural statements about this, i.e., how the pope (their number, timing, etc.) can be clearly tied into the Lord's reign? Thanks.
No "solid scriptural statements" really, just connecting the dots as usual. Seems to me that prophecy is never 100% solid anyway until after the fact.
OK, thanks. I didn't know of any, but thought I might be missing something "hidden" somewhere I wasn't putting a finger on. Molly's comment about the ram's horns indicating a religious figure was something I hadn't caught before.
Quote from: Molly on February 12, 2013, 02:16:36 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2013, 02:01:43 AM
Questioning if the prophecy is calling God that, or means someone else - and questioning this prophecy in general. I understand your point, many will dread - but in the context of this prophecy, I find it odd the pope would be described as a nourisher of the church, while God was called dreadful.
Oh, well, that doesn't bother me so much, we're talking someone from the 12th Century here, a Catholic Bishop. They had their own way of talking then.
I don't know much about language, but it would surprise me if their language would be so different as to describe someone supposedly "affiliated with satan" and charged with splitting the church into fragments, etc., as someone good and nurturing the church. :dunno2:
All this is interesting, but I just honestly don't know how much stock we can put in it. Seems many are really enamored with it, while many others say the prophecy that was discovered was a fake/spurrious.
I think this guy Horn is either a believer in it, and/or is making some money on it.
from examiner.com
"In his research for his book, Horn spoke with many Catholic theologians who believe the final pope will not be the anti-Christ, but he'll be a false pope, under the influence of Satan. Horn believes this final pope will be the person who steers the religious community into following a great political figure who will be the anti-Christ.
Horn's research also indicated that the third secret of Fatima, as well as other Marian prophecies, stated that the last pope would be affiliated with Satan.
According to Horn, Pope Petrus Romanus, or Peter of Rome, won't necessarily have to be named Peter. Every pope who ascends to the Throne of Peter becomes a direct descendant of Saint Peter. However, if the next pope is Italian, then the prophecy will be fulfilled."
I can't seem to "pull all this together", i.e., is this last pope supposed to be good and nurturing the church, or tearing it apart? And is the Catholic religious institution The Church, the end times saints? :pitiful:
I saw one guy say the great falling away happened when the protestants split from the [Mother] Church. :LH:
IMO, Anybody who nurtures the Catholic church as opposed to the "ecclesia of God"- body of Christ called out from amongst men- is of the anti-Christ spirit.....of those things trying to take the place of Jesus as "".head over all things to His church, the body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all
Moms the secret word.
Wait a minute. The prophecy says the last pope MIGHT be affiliated with Satan?(click to enlarge)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 12, 2013, 07:48:07 PM
Wait a minute. The prophecy says the last pope MIGHT be affiliated with Satan?(click to enlarge)
The interesting thing here is that these children
are here now on our watch.
Lord please lead us with the power of Love.
That we have no fear for our self's and our families.
Lord you know that me, even asking you is a reflection
of what you have written on my heart.
Lord assure my mind.
You know my mind and the frailties of ideas that seem only to be possible if I know I am walking ( I was going to say with you) but I have more comfort knowing you are walking with me .
I trust your plan Jesus. I do not trust my ability to understand.
All things are important. Jesus made all things important.
Amen
Pope resigns (click to enlarge)
[attachment deleted by admin]
I just bought this for 99 cents on kindle and here it is for free on the internet.
WAR ON THE SAINTS
by Jessie Penn-Lewis, with Evan Roberts
World Wide Web Edition (Based on Unabridged 1912 Edition)
http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/Contents.html
Table of Contents
Chapter 1. A Biblical survey of Satanic deception.
Chapter 2. The Satanic confederacy of wicked spirits.
Chapter 3. Deception by evil spirits in modern times.
Chapter 4. Passivity the chief basis of possession.
Chapter 5. Deception and possession.
Chapter 6. Counterfeits of the Divine.
Chapter 7. Ground and symptoms of possession.
Chapter 8. The Path to Freedom.
Chapter 9. The Volition and Spirit of Man.
Chapter 10. Victory in Conflict.
Chapter 11. War upon the Powers of Darkness.
Chapter 12. Revival Dawn.
Summary of "Ground"
Seeking radical cause in ground"
Brief Notes
The true workings of God, and the Counterfeits of Satan
APPENDIX
Good Find...Molly :thumbsup:
The "Volition and Spirit of Man" chapter is really excellent.
Ok, so I was driving home and listening to focus on the family on the radio, and they had on two guests who are Christians who have made several successful tv shows. They were talking about how they decided they wanted to make a tv series about the Bible. They said they didn't get a very good response from their hollywood backers because most Christian movies are poorly made due to a small budget. The backers asked, would Jesus have to be in it? They managed to make the deal. though, and promised they have made a first class series about the Bible, as good as a 200 million dollar movie--top rate writers, filmmakers, actors, and music. They said many supernatural things happened during the production of it. You can go listen to their interview at the focus on the family website.
As I was listening to them, tears started streaming down my face. This was an answer to my prayers and the timing of it was so perfect. They said they would reach millions of people all over the world with this production. It will be shown Sundays on the History Channel for two hours starting 3;3,13, this Sunday,.and ending at Easter. Please try to tune in because they said that if Hollywood sees how many views this type of production draws, they will be more likely to fund future productions.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
--Mat 24:14
The Bible Miniseries
Clips from 5 shows in the series should play one after the other:
The burning bush, Samson, John the Baptist, Peter walks on water, and Ananias and Paul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SJRC6PxzTE&list=PLN_OwL4J8L1DqNmd3RrHL5vPX2M5V-wcE&index=1
Watched all 5. Pretty good. There is some dramatic liscence with minor nuances that aren't biblically supported and there is one major thing(to me) in that like all hollywood stuff that features Jesus, He is tall, very handsome, been to a hairdresser and barber recently, has perfectly clean and unwrinkled clothes, and is so obviously a standout from the rest. (not to mention he looks more scandinavian than mediteranean and/or Jewish.
The Bible says, "his look was such that no one would desire him" -he was able to slip away in crowds, the soldiers had to have Judas kiss him so they would know which of the twelve was Jesus, he very probably did NOT have light hair and eyes but rather dark of both. His cousin, John the Baptist, looks more like what Jesus would have except for the dubious dreadlocks.
Despite all that, I still say pretty good. :Peace2:
I saw an ad for that Moll and I was super excited for it! I'll be watching if I can remember to! Ohhh I just remembered we have a dvr so I can set it to record it in case I forget. Woohoo!
PS - been wondering where you were! I was going to pm you soon if you didn't show yourself. :) Everything ok?
Everything's great, Lo. Just busy. :banana:
Re-posting on this page so that no one misses today's show
The Bible Miniseries
Sundays on the History Channel for two hours starting 3;3,13, this Sunday,.and ending at Easter. Please try to tune in because they said that if Hollywood sees how many views this type of production draws, they will be more likely to fund future productions.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
--Mat 24:14
The Bible Miniseries
Clips from 5 shows in the series should play one after the other:
The burning bush, Samson, John the Baptist, Peter walks on water, and Ananias and Paul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SJRC6PxzTE&list=PLN_OwL4J8L1DqNmd3RrHL5vPX2M5V-wcE&index=1
Bumping for tonight's [Sunday] show
The Bible
On the History Channel
I've got my dvr set to record! :thumbsup:
They're showing the first two parts here. Not sure about down there. They're coming on at 9 and 10 pm so I am planning on watching them since the kids will be in bed but thought it best to record them just in case. :) I'm excited to see em!
I hope you guys saw the first two hours tonight. They are doing a beautiful job. They only had ten hours to work with, so they had to hand pick which stories they would include.
They are working a theme, showing how the whole Bible is written by one hand, how the OT is playing out in the natural what the NT will play out in the spiritual, and from Abraham to Jesus illustrating the children of the promise. It's one story from start to finish and they are presenting it in a way that people will see that very clearly.
And, Jesus is there--in the OT--with his set-apart people! I love it! :banana:
You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I appointed you that you should go out and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.
--John 15:16
I enjoyed watching it, can't wait till next week, everyone in family loves it!
Mass Arrest and Torture of Christians in Libya
March 1, 2013 By Raymond Ibrahim
Here, then, is yet another indicator of the true significance of the "Arab Spring" and the Obama administration's wholesale support of it—hate and hostility for Christians.
http://frontpagemag.com/2013/raymond-ibrahim/mass-arrest-and-torture-of-christians-in-libya/
Locusts swarm over Egypt. Israel concerned going into Passover.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA9SCJRYRb4
Locust swarm of biblical proportions strikes Egypt, Israel before Passover
Experts estimate the swarm at 30 million strong.
http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/04/17185324-locust-swarm-of-biblical-proportions-strikes-egypt-israel-before-passover?lite
Don't forget that under the "Christian" Bush, most every Christian church in Iraq was bombed during the first Gulf War, including the first-century cathedral in Baghdad. The end result of two Gulf Wars, and continued military action in that country has been the de-Christianization of Iraq, a country in which Christians had been been a well-tolerated minority, even serving in the government.
A spokeswoman for Israel's Agriculture Ministry, Dafna Yurista, told The Associated Press that planes have gone out to spray pesticides on agricultural fields, to head off damage by a relatively small swarm of 2,000 locusts. Authorities called upon residents to be vigilant in reporting locust sightings.
Photos of the locusts involved in the current outbreak suggest that these particular insects are "old and tired rather than young and hungry," Cressman said. If that's the case, this week's plague "will probably come to nothing," he said.
Don't forget The Bible Miniseries!
The next two installments are tonight [Sunday] on the History Channel.
:banana: :banana: :banana:
WOW!!!!:
Last Sunday, "The Bible" became the most watched show on television of the year with 14.8 million viewers.
"We know God moved last night," Downey said in a statement following the successful premiere. "People of all denominations showed the power that can be unleashed in our culture when we band together, individual believers with a shared purpose and vision. The world is won when the church is one."
I had no idea that Roma Downey and her husband Mark Burnett were the creators... Roma Downey was in "Touched by an Angel", I used to love that show!! (Sure sometimes it was incredibly tacky and/or corny and/or ridiculous but I loved it nonetheless!!)
The Feast of Trumpets--the day and hour that no man knows
The Day of Atonement--
Prophecies in the Fall Feasts--episode 5 and 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qobPeNC-aR4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtvVxKzqoHw
Enjoy!! :banana: :banana: :banana:
I was pleasantly surprised The Bible miniseries on the history channel was so good. I saw the first but missed the 2nd :mfrown:
...and, it stands to reason (imo) if the Spring Holy Days prophesied and were fulfilled by Jesus' first advent, the Fall Holy Days prophesy and will be fulfilled by His long second advent. Trumpets - 10 days later, day of Atonement - 5 days later, Tabernacles
--- Trumpets "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. he will send out His angels to gather His elect"(first resurrection,all believers) - 1000 years later, 2nd resurrection, day of 'judgment'/examination of all history,@close (500 years later) "whosoever doesn't believe,"anybody?not likely - and 500 years later, New Jerusalem, Throne of God, to earth, "God will Tabernacle with man now" upon Earth made new, all enemies defeated, no seas, no death(no dead!)
Hey Guys,and Molly in particular. I've been watching the calender for specific dates..in
regard to post #1664 timeline. and one of the dates was for manchild birthed March 1-2
World news for March 2,2013...ASTRONOMERS SPY POSSIBLE BABY PLANET IN STELLAR WOMB
constellation Musca..southern constellation..formerly the Bee.
the thing is...I'm trying to examine Bullingers wittness in the stars..for info on it..and am having
trouble finding it online[I know I read it online somewhere] anyway; do any of you know
where the link for the book free online is,as would like to look into it.
Sheila, I don't think I've read Bullinger's book, though his book on numbers is excellent. I do have Raymond Capt's book The Glory of the Stars, and enjoyed it greatly. I can be bought through this publisher:
http://artisanpublishers.com/raymond-captall-products-c-28.html?page=2
The link will take you right to it, and looking thru the list at Capt's newest books, it looks like he has come into the UR camp! Awesome! :declare:
Here you go Sheila
http://levendwater.org/books/witness/the_witness_of_the_stars_bullinger.pdf
TY Brothers, I'm heading there right now....... :friendstu:
Molly
Thanks for the link to that prophecy series!
Sheila
I have a better understanding of the North now :HeartThrob:
Manchild = Son of man - Revelation chapter 12 (Bible)
Yah! Colleen :banana: :banana:
Marie..yes..manchild = son of man...there are scriptures where others are spoken to/addressed
as son of man. Son of Adam[mankind] given authority and power and dominion and kingdom
heirs of the Kingdom. the salvation of all mankind raised up is His image..is the manchild
Born again man; born from above..the heavens. the firstborn from the dead..the head is
delivered first..the head of the man is Jesus Christ.
hey guys....isn't a jesuit called black because of his robes being black?
Quote from: sheila on March 13, 2013, 05:37:11 PM
Yah! Colleen :banana: :banana:
Marie..yes..manchild = son of man...there are scriptures where others are spoken to/addressed
as son of man. Son of Adam[mankind] given authority and power and dominion and kingdom
heirs of the Kingdom. the salvation of all mankind raised up is His image..is the manchild
Born again man; born from above..the heavens. the firstborn from the dead..the head is
delivered first..the head of the man is Jesus Christ.
I think to follow what I'm saying a rereading of Revelation chapter 12 would be necessary :smile:
:dontknow: well..is Jesus the head of the body? does the manchild have a head and abody?
what/who is the body of Christ? Born from above believers maybe.?
Quote from: sheila on March 13, 2013, 10:07:34 PM
hey guys....isn't a jesuit called black because of his robes being black?
They are sometimes called "blackrobes." The head of the Jesuit Order is often referred to as the Black Pope.
Quote from: sheila on March 13, 2013, 10:47:43 PM
:dontknow: well..is Jesus the head of the body?
what/who is the body of Christ? Born from above believers maybe.?
Jesus/head; I believe that's a "yes".
body of Christ/those spiritually reborn; I also believe that's a "yes" :thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on March 13, 2013, 10:47:43 PM
:dontknow: well..is Jesus the head of the body? does the manchild have a head and abody?
what/who is the body of Christ? Born from above believers maybe.?
perhaps, :Chinscratch: perhaps
a manchild
from Revelation 12,one of 4 inserts, one of the locks of the BK of Rev (KJ)
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered...and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." (Dragon via Herod)"...And she brought forth
a man child,
who was to
rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness: (history,70a.d.) "where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And the great dragon was cast out" (no longer access to heaven after Christ's victory) "...And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night... And they" (brethren) "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death...
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted" (again, history, inquisitioned) "the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle.." (a 2nd migration, sheep of one fold)"..And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood" (proliferation) "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth." (future, cross ref=Lk23:28-31, dry leaf) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and" (by now, cross ref=Mt 23:39) "have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
:smile:
Marie, I don't know what your'e getting at? is the issue a manchild..singular, just Jesus..
and you don't see as I do..that man raised up in Him..is His body also? Just trying to
clarify,sister. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on March 14, 2013, 05:40:07 AM
Marie, I don't know what your'e getting at? is the issue a manchild..singular, just Jesus..
and you don't see as I do..that man raised up in Him..is His body also? Just trying to
clarify,sister. :HeartThrob:
Thanks, Sheila, me too.. :smile: I agree the body of Christ inherits all things.. but yes in this spot of Bible prophecy i think it's the story of (natural and grafted) Israel, first the natural woman and after Jesus' life and ascension, the new covenant woman, and events which occur... manchild as plural here obscures the rest of the chapter (which is basically two migrations).. also I think the body of Jesus, manchild plural, is limited until revelation 20 and the resurrection when she (the bride) puts on all that is inherited (lest any should boast?).. rev 12 to me is still the earthly bride (beginning w Israel who gave birth to Christ who Herod tried to destroy/devour.. it's not the manchild i'm focused on so much, whether Jesus' birth n ascension or plural, as i am the chapter as prophecy, and summary, a whole history with a different beginning and focus, and an insert within the Book of Revelation narrative, one of (at least) four :smile: thanks!
TY I understand your veiwpoint now,Marie. and yes I agree with the timeline of 1970..
but I know these 'signs' and markers given to us in Revelations...have both signs in the earth
and signs in the heavens[natural/spiritual]
Can you see the calling to come out of her my people[Babylon] as a first migration
of beleivers at the time of His return and fulfilling the fall feasts? First the natural
then the spiritual fulfilling of His word. Thus the calling the woman into the wilderness
and the wooing of her..the restoring of the vineyards. And then the woman comes up
out of the wilderness leaning on her lover...to enter the fulfillment of the promises[land]2nd
migration
[who is 'this" coming up out of the wilderness..leaning on her beloved..as majestic
as the moon..and the stars..in procession[woman standing on moon with 12 stars on her head
clothed with the son] 2nd migration from wilderness 'up"
the signs are both natural and spiritual...and He fulfills them both.
.....when the time come for the deliverance of His people from slavery in Egypt[this world in
which the prince of this world/adversary holds us in subjection/rules over us]
The Lord stated the purpose of wanting His people to be released......that.....
they may make a 3 day journey into the wilderness..and make an offering acceptable
unto God. I believe this is a type or foreshadow..of our call out of Babylon[this world]
into the wilderness..where we are wooed of Him.
I will share with you my personal spiritual expierence. Shortly before coming into the knowledge
of the salvation of all..and after coming out of the Babylon church expierence.
for three days in a row..I was awakened by a voice. The first morning..I was
awakened to 'read the parable of the ten virgins"...I freaked :eek: I tell you I knew I needed
to get prepared...that He was at the door....all day long I was in the scriptures..examining
them...and the meaning of the parable.
The secound morning ,I was awakened by the voice saying 'walk in the way"..there I went
again..'in the way?"...researching..digging..praying :Pray:
On the 3rd morning..I was awakened..by a voice[that I took to be my husband] calling
my name twice...I answered.." I'm coming" and jumped out of bed and hurried into
the living room.only to discover my husband asleep..and it was not he who called[see Samuel
and Eli]
I see the above expierence as a three day journey in the wilderness...a spiritual expierence
that wise virgins must me prepared for...and walk in..til your betrothed husband calls
your name. 'upward call that Paul speaks of" I press on toward the goal,to win the
prize for which God has called me heavenward in Jesus Christ"
Press in,all you sons and daughters........
Thank you for sharing Sheila. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Yes we need bigger arms to open wider to receive more and more
the things described by Sheila
Quote from: sheila on March 14, 2013, 07:43:37 PM
TY I understand your veiwpoint now,Marie. and yes I agree with the timeline of 1970..
but I know these 'signs' and markers given to us in Revelations...have both signs in the earth
and signs in the heavens[natural/spiritual]
Can you see the calling to come out of her my people[Babylon] as a first migration
of beleivers at the time of His return and fulfilling the fall feasts? First the natural
then the spiritual fulfilling of His word. Thus the calling the woman into the wilderness
and the wooing of her..the restoring of the vineyards. And then the woman comes up
out of the wilderness leaning on her lover...to enter the fulfillment of the promises[land]2nd
migration
[who is 'this" coming up out of the wilderness..leaning on her beloved..as majestic
as the moon..and the stars..in procession[woman standing on moon with 12 stars on her head
clothed with the son] 2nd migration from wilderness 'up"
the signs are both natural and spiritual...and He fulfills them both.
I agree there's spiritual messages behind all.. but the thing I focus on is how most believe the U.S. is not in Bible prophecy.. totally overlooking or missing this 2nd migration (in Rev 12) of the truth upon the planet "she's given the two wings of an eagle that she may sail to a new place.." oops, "fly"
I think the spiritual messages behind these things are great, and I also believe the literal things upon earth / this life as we presently know it, is very important to all learning exactly, and all it is that He is endeavoring to teach, and prove unto all, for all 'time' and eternity..
I guess the way I think is like the parting of the Red Sea, lots of spiritual insight and messages, but also a literal rendering pertaining to history and God's plan of teaching what it is He is seeking to bring home to and convince all for all eternity..
Collapse (Bible prophecy) being a huge part of that lesson/truth proving drama, and is no reflection upon God.. Indeed, if God had not intervened from the very beginning, every single 'soul' would perish (that's a big part of the lesson) rather than everyone survive and have the all important lesson of all this under their belt for all eternity.. :friendstu:
God's eternal Love story with his son.
All In All.
K.I.S.S.
Quote from: marie glen on March 15, 2013, 10:31:59 PM
I agree there's spiritual messages behind all.. but the thing I focus on is how most believe the U.S. is not in Bible prophecy.. totally overlooking or missing this 2nd migration (in Rev 12) of the truth upon the planet "she's given the two wings of an eagle that she may sail to a new place.." oops, "fly"
Some maintain that America is the Stone Kingdom - not sure myself, but I always looked to the millennial kingdom for that role.
:2c:I'm an extreme pessimist in that I don't see America at the end times because I don't believe America will be a country of any reputation much longer. Do we lead the world in anything at all anymore except debt?... and don't say freedom because there are still countries that have the same or more freedom than America. Besides, "the borrower is servant to the lender" and America not only has the greatest debt but more than any other country, encourages its citizens to get further and further into debt until your freedom is gone as you work for the (other) master. It is it's own example. Our government since we went on the Federal reserve system (which is NOT a part of our government) spends between 20 and 25% more each year that it takes in. After the military, the payment on our debt is the next biggest expenditure. :sigh: :2c:
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 16, 2013, 02:17:50 PM
:2c:I'm an extreme pessimist in that I don't see America at the end times because I don't believe America will be a country of any reputation much longer. Do we lead the world in anything at all anymore except debt?... and don't say freedom because there are still countries that have the same or more freedom than America. Besides, "the borrower is servant to the lender" and America not only has the greatest debt but more than any other country, encourages its citizens to get further and further into debt until your freedom is gone as you work for the (other) master. It is it's own example. Our government since we went on the Federal reserve system (which is NOT a part of our government) spends between 20 and 25% more each year that it takes in. After the military, the payment on our debt is the next biggest expenditure. :sigh: :2c:
"the woman" (rev 12) imo, after being given the two wings of an eagle to 'fly' to a new place, was washed away from the land by the flood / proliferation which came 3 and 1/2 modern divisions of time after she 'landed' at the new place.. Then, at that time, a previously hidden social phenomenon burst upon the scene (was vomited upon the scene by the dragon) "in order to wash her/the faith away" from the land..
And the false prophet/teaching went before and prepared the way right well..
Also! :smile: imo, rev 13:13 a (new) fire was brought down from the 'sky' in the sight of man, persuading them to rebuild the 1st beast of rev 13 (verse 12, verses are not necessarily in order) ..it, the 1st beast of rev 13, had previously expired (when its 'head' did not, after all sign on). I believe the 2nd beast of rev 13 to be an office of man, with verse 13:13 pinpointing the office the final man beast comes out of, at one time or another at least..
"It worked mighty miracles, and while people watched, it even made fire come down from the sky" - Rev 13:13 - imo, this occurred in 1945 upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki, surely an event worthy of Bible prophecy mention - I can't help myself but to add a cross reference, chapter 6, the 6th seal, but the seals are described as a blend - what they are at beginning/Opening + what they are fully progressed/galloped, at the 'end'. This is one way the Revelation vision is locked for a time...
:teaching: :Book: :BangHead: <-- ppl seldom seem to catch what i'm saying, but I go on and on b'cause there are concrete signs and a counting of days that would be good to be passed on to believers for those days and that generation :icon_joker:
Logic would say that the generation that believes
it will see the end of days has to be the generation that is still
alive.
Are we the first generation to say ;
The other generations that are now gone, they were wrong when they wrote about
the evidence that they were living in the end times.
Wasn't 70 A.D. the end of an age..? Is it the opinion of some that man's world/empires will go one and on? This would be a new idea to me.. Or is that it is all believed to be metaphor only? If so where can you draw the line? All prophecies other than those prophesying Jesus are metaphor? What about history? Metaphor also? Or is it simply if we don't understand something we try to metaphor it away? Won't any listeners wonder if Jesus' life, etc was merely metaphor also? Does it all have to be metaphor only?
Daj, EVERY generation from the time of Christ has believed he would return in their lifetime. LOgic tells us that some generation someday will be right.
Poster awhile back said, "Live each day as if it's your last, cuz someday you'll be right."
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 16, 2013, 02:17:50 PM
... and don't say freedom because there are still countries that have the same or more freedom than America. Besides, "the borrower is servant to the lender" and America not only has the greatest debt but more than any other country, encourages its citizens to get further and further into debt until your freedom is gone as you work for the (other) master. It is it's own example. Our government since we went on the Federal reserve system (which is NOT a part of our government) spends between 20 and 25% more each year that it takes in. After the military, the payment on our debt is the next biggest expenditure. :sigh: :2c:
it's pretty crazy ain't it? :eek:
Quote from: marie glen on March 16, 2013, 09:46:42 PM
Wasn't 70 A.D. the end of an age..? Is it the opinion of some that man's world/empires will go one and on? This would be a new idea to me.. Or is that it is all believed to be metaphor only? If so where can you draw the line? All prophecies other than those prophesying Jesus are metaphor? What about history? Metaphor also? Or is it simply if we don't understand something we try to metaphor it away? Won't any listeners wonder if Jesus' life, etc was merely metaphor also? Does it all have to be metaphor only?
Consider the image of Nebuchadnezzar - it was a metaphor for the world empires from Babylon to Rome, and on to the lesser successor nations of the former empire. We live in the time of the toes. The Stone Kingdom comes next, and I hope, soon.
BTW, if it's not a metaphor, it could be a simile. :laughing7:
I personally don't believe 70 ad was the end of an age.
Jesus said, "Tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up'. They thought He was speaking of the physical synagogue.
He was talking about the tabernacle of His body.
When Christ was crucified the age of law was over. Done. The indictment contained in statutes and ordinances was nailed to a tree and "It is finished" was spoken and it was meant. The "work" was done, fulfilled by Christ o the cross by the sheddig of His blood. The sacrifice over, complete.
The new aion involved a transition. It lasted 50 days or thereabout, from the resurrection of Messiah to the day of Pentecost. The chief cornerstone began having living stones fitly joined unto Him, being built up into a "habitation of God in the Spirit'- a new tabernacle, fulfilling, as the law could not, the promise- "and I will be their God and they will be my people and I will live among them and walk among them and I will be their God and they will be my people and they will all know me from the least of them to the greatest of them".
IMO. The new age began either at the resurrection of Jesus or at the day of Pentecost(I prefer the latter). The prophesy Jesus made regarding the fate of Jerusalem which was accomplished in 70 AD was only the burial of the body that was destroyed when He took the keys of sheol and death and made the law of no effect for everyone who believed and became "born of God" by faith. When Jeruslem was destroyed the gospel was already preached throughout the known world and the kingdom of God in Christ was well on its way to becoming the little stone that strikes the feet of Babylon.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 17, 2013, 06:29:45 AM
I personally don't believe 70 ad was the end of an age.
IMO. The new age began either at the resurrection of Jesus or at the day of Pentecost(I prefer the latter). The prophesy Jesus made regarding the fate of Jerusalem which was accomplished in 70 AD was only the burial of the body that was destroyed when He took the keys of sheol and death and made the law of no effect for everyone who believed and became "born of God" by faith. When Jeruslem was destroyed the gospel was already preached throughout the known world and the kingdom of God in Christ was well on its way to becoming the little stone that strikes the feet of Babylon.
....absolutely! but there was judgment and collapse/razing of a system in 70 A.D. It's noted historically that the priests repaired the rent veil and carried on the sacrifices as though Messiah had not come (the first time).
Yes, but as we know, the veil was already rent in Christs body, the way into the holy place(heavenly realms) revealed. It was finished.
There were some wonderful scenes in The Bible miniseries last week. One was the three servants thrown into the fire, and the Lord appearing among them. And, one was the story of Daniel. We see Daniel, one of the greatest heroes of the Old Testament, praying just like we do and for the same things, the renewing of the Holy Spirit within and the presence of our God.
Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
--Psalm 51
If our timing is right, Today [Mar 22,2013] is the turning point for the next 3.5 years. Otherwise, it's another 20 years until the signs are right again.
:2c:
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
--Daniel 7
Quote from: molly
If our timing is right, Today [Mar 22,2013] is the turning point for the next 3.5 years. Otherwise, it's another 20 years until the signs are right again.
molly could you explain this a bit more? How did you come to this date? Are you saying the next 3.5 years will bring the end?
CHB
These kinds of prophecies encourage me. When Today passes, and nothing out of the ordinary occurs- i will expect to be free from impending apocalypse reports for 20 years YAYYYYYY!
(really, just kidding...... I love impending apocalypse reports. Ever since the "Jupiter Effect" through "YK2" I have had more solid entertainment through them than any other "end- times" chicanery out there.)
Time Magazine cover for March 25, 2013 ['Eve of Passover'--first seder]
Picture of Pope Francis
TIME
"NEW WORLD POPE"
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,20130325,00.html
I seriously hope we don't have to wait another 20 years!!
God spoke to one of my friends about a decade ago. He said when the world's love has grown cold, when there is very little love left (REAL love), even within families, that's when the end would come. I think we're about there. (He also told him it would be very soon... it was a few years back that he wrote the end would start in a few short years. Of course to God 20 years could be a few short years... I just hope it's not that long.)
Quote from: lomarah on March 23, 2013, 07:26:18 PM
I seriously hope we don't have to wait another 20 years!!
God spoke to one of my friends about a decade ago. He said when the world's love has grown cold, when there is very little love left (REAL love), even within families, that's when the end would come. I think we're about there. (He also told him it would be very soon... it was a few years back that he wrote the end would start in a few short years. Of course to God 20 years could be a few short years... I just hope it's not that long.)
Amen to that Lomara.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 23, 2013, 05:49:29 PM
Quote from: molly
If our timing is right, Today [Mar 22,2013] is the turning point for the next 3.5 years. Otherwise, it's another 20 years until the signs are right again.
molly could you explain this a bit more? How did you come to this date? Are you saying the next 3.5 years will bring the end?
CHB
hi! Molly, is that something having to do with (I'm not sure I can remember) a few months back on forums on facebook, it was all the buzz about ancient Israel Holy Days and moon phases or eclipses maybe.. I think maybe that was it.. eclipses, and they traced some history.. well, I do think Holy Days and historical happenings to do with Israel have occurred, but to tell ya the truth, when i was reading all that stuff, I thought, wouldn't it be better to discern what it was Jesus said about those days.. I do like to study up on that..
Personally I used to figure, 30, maybe even 40 years for things to shape up more concretely, you know global this and global that, for one thing.. but after a while recently, I've wondered if 20, possibly even less could be possible, for things to BE concretely, you know, global.
It's not so much for me that I want to know!! I think i know the signs.. And the danger days, I think, are a lot less in number than prophecy buffs have been saying and teaching.. And the Lord and also Isaiah said basically, be a bit hidden/low profile for a few days.. Anyway, it's my kids and, or grand kids I'm thinking of! :Pray:
:Peace2:
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
(Isa 26:20-21)
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
(Amo 5:18-20)
YW. Its one of my favorite verses :o)
Arise Shine,for your light has come,and the glory of the Lord rises upon you.....see...
darkness covers the earth..and thick darkness is over the peoples,but the Lord rises upon you
and His glory appears over you. Nations will come to your light,and kings to the brighteness
of your dawn.[note the day of the Lord when Jesus was on the cross/judgement..and it was dark]
the year of the Lord's favour......The spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me,because the Lord has
annointed me, to preach good news to the poor,He has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted
to proclaim freedom for the captives..and release from darkness for the prisoners
TO PROCLAIM THE YEAR OF THE LORD'S FAVOUR,AND THE DAY OF VENEGEANCE OF OUR GOD
Isaaih speaks of the passover..the entering the house and shutting the door..of which the Blood of Lamb
is on the doorpost. The Egyptians had not light in their houses..but Israel had light.....
the Egyptians/Pharoah symbolize satan and the prince of this world...satan will not let go...God
works the plagues against him..toward the deliverance of His people from this world....
hide yourself for but a moment...and your life shall appear..when He is revealed..for you are hidden in Him.
where is this promised coming of His? Isaaih 5;19] woe to those who draw sin along with cords of
deceit,and wickedness as with cart ropes..to those who say,'Let God hurry,let Him hasten His work
that we may see it" Let it approach, let the plan of the Holy one of Israel come,so we may know it...
this is in relation to the mockers..the scorners...the wicked [evil spirits] that mock the coming vengeance
on the Kingdom of darkness..and the deliverance of mankind from satan's power.
those that are awaiting His return..are told to lift themselves erect for their deliverance draws near...
when they see all these occurring. the admonition and woe..is toward those that mock them.
have the believers had woe,also? Yes, for satan knows his time is short..and demonic madness[wrath]
has covered the earth as a great darkness.
God shall mock those who mock those awaiting Him.......
we need to be aware of what is coming.....the end of the good/evil exercize...the end of the corrupt image
the deliverance of the body undergoing this death..in man.
Dan 9;24.........to finish transgression..to put an end to sin..to atone for wickedness....
TO BRING IN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS, to seal up vision and prophecy..and to anoint
the MOST HOLY
Rev 7;14 and He said, these are they who have come out of the great tribulation[Great Crowd]
in number they are like the sand on the seashore[God's covenant with Abraham-children as sand
on seashore[dragonstood on the seashore=overcomeman]..stars as the heaven=if I be lifted up I will
draw all men unto me[into the heavens=wise shall shine like the stars of heaven..and lead many
to righteousness]
Dire Straits - 17th of Tammuz to the 9th of Av
This year, 2013, It will be June 25 to July 16
The Three Weeks or Bein ha-Metzarim (Hebrew: בין המצרים, "Between the Straits" cf "In Dire Straits") is a period of mourning commemorating the destruction of the first and second Jewish Temples. The Three Weeks start on the seventeenth day of the Jewish month of Tammuz — the fast of Shiva Asar B'Tammuz — and end on the ninth day of the Jewish month of Av — the fast of Tisha B'Av, which occurs exactly three weeks later. Both of these fasts commemorate events surrounding the destruction of the Jewish Temples and the subsequent exile of the Jews from the land of Israel. According to conventional chronology, the destruction of the first Temple, by Nebuchadnezzar II, occurred in 586 BCE, and the second, by the Romans, in 70 CE.
Time of danger
The Three Weeks are historically a time of misfortune, since many tragedies and calamities befell the Jewish people at this time. These tragedies include: the breaking of the Tablets of the Law by Moses, when he saw the people worshipping the golden calf; the burning of a Sefer Torah by Apostomus during the Second Temple era; the destruction of both Temples on Tisha B'Av; the expulsion of the Jews from Spain on Tisha B'Av 1492; and the outbreak of World War I on Tisha B'Av 1914, which overturned many Jewish communities.
--Wikipedia
"In traditional Judaism the time period between the 17th of Tammuz and the 9th of Av is called 'bein ha Metzarim' which is translated between the narrow places or dire straits. It comes from Lamentations 1:3: 'Amidst affliction and harsh labor,
Judah has gone into exile. She dwells among the nations; she finds no resting place. All who pursue her have overtaken her IN THE MIDST OF HER DISTRESS.'
"This phrase IN THE MIDST OF HER DISTRESS can also be translated "between the straits or narrow places." It is traditionally a 3-week mourning period in Judaism commemorating the breaching of the walls of Jerusalem on the 17th of Tammuz and the destruction of the Temple on the 9th of Av. It is a time of mourning with no weddings occurring during this season along with other mourning traditions.
---Chuck Pierce
"Between the narrow places"
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
--Mat 7
"Narrow" [is the way]
G2346
θλίβω
thlibō
thlee'-bo
Akin to the base of G5147; to crowd (literally or figuratively): - afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble.
Narrow is the way--it's describing the birth canal, and birth is being given through a sense of crowding, pressure, tribulation, trouble.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.--Mat 24
It's the same word:
[great] "tribulation"
G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
Pressure, Crowding--
Its describing a birth, as the birth pangs come closer and closer together,
the baby is entering the birth canal.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
--Mat 24
March 20, 2013: Entering Jerusalem the same day as Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUx4wKyvV94
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
---Mat 24
Mat 24:27 Describes the birth which will happen on the Feast of Trumpets
Dear friends, we are already God's children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. --1 John 3:2
(What a beautiful picture on the youtube video of Jesus' triumphal entry!!)
..I hadn't heard anything about world frog day.. that's interesting too.. quite co-incidental all these things.. Very good word study too, and I for one, had never heard of the narrow straits.. :thumbsup: :Chinscratch:
Quote from: CHB on March 23, 2013, 05:49:29 PM
Quote from: molly
If our timing is right, Today [Mar 22,2013] is the turning point for the next 3.5 years. Otherwise, it's another 20 years until the signs are right again.
molly could you explain this a bit more? How did you come to this date? Are you saying the next 3.5 years will bring the end?
CHB
Take a look at this, CHB. I like the way he explains things although it does not have to necessarily go exactly this way. We are watching for certain things to happen, but I've found that they do not have to unfold the way you think they will. I found this past week to be a very quiet turning of the tides, imo. I thought what happened was huge, but few noticed. Future events will confirm. Watch Israel.
Daniel Unsealed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUk6mKotx0c
So it seems basically a lot of folks are saying the new Pope and Obama tied to Israel are both significant.
Molly, you know more about this, so correct me if I'm off on something. I have a short attention span, so I scan things and look for summarization :)
In looking at some things others are saying, I've seen these points;
>the new pope will sit in the upper room and also sit somewhere on David's throne when he visits Israel. This permission has already been given.
>Obama entered Jerusalem the exact same day of the year Jesus did (and in a certain timeline with Passover?)
>Obama received the Nobel Peace Prize 1260 days prior to March 23/2013 (?) (some believe that started the first 3.5 years of tribulation?)...that it was the "agreement" or "promise" of future peace...
>Obama will make every effort to bring peace to the Middle East this year and maybe next with agreements between Israel and Palestinians, but it's predicted he will basically end up breaking all "promises" for peace - including the Nobel Peace Prize "assumed contract" of working for peace.
>Some who believe in a mid-trib rapture point to around the first of April 2013, just prior to things really beginning to blow up?
>Others, post-trib believers, point to 3.5 years from March 23, 2013 as the time of Jesus' return.
The fellow in the following states Jesus actually gave the name of the anti-Christ in the Aramaic in the scriptures, and shows why he thinks so and who he thinks it is in the following video. He uses scripture and references Strong's to show his evidence. The video is long, but what I'm mentioning is IN THE FIRST 4 MINUTES OF THE VIDEO. Thoughts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBuwQ1_P89w&feature=player_embedded
Jabcat, all those things people are saying are interesting but the guy who said the words "yes you can" is actually "thank you Satan" is a bit of a stretch. Sometimes I think people try to make things happen and use innocent people to accomplish it. I don't think Obama is anti-christ, he might have something to do with how things are going to play out but so does everyone else. I wonder about the ant-christ and if this didn't happen in 70AD, what does Gary say about this?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 25, 2013, 06:11:03 PM
Jabcat, all those things people are saying are interesting but the guy who said the words "yes you can" is actually "thank you Satan" is a bit of a stretch. Sometimes I think people try to make things happen and use innocent people to accomplish it. I don't think Obama is anti-christ, he might have something to do with how things are going to play out but so does everyone else. I wonder about the ant-christ and if this didn't happen in 70AD, what does Gary say about this?
CHB
Did Christ return in 70 AD ?
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.--Mark 13:26
Has the first resurrection already happened?
IMO
IMO
The Italian government is going to be forced by the EU.
To raise money through austerity measures.
The Italians will not want to pay higher taxes.
The people will say why are you taxing us.
Make the Vatican pay more.
They will come up with a special tax on the Vatican.
The new pope is not Italian or European.
They will demand the Vatican bail out the Italians.
The pope will see this coming and start moving large sums of money,
to the poor of South America .The same groups and the children of the
groups that moved European resources to south America after the fall
of Nazis , will be used again.
EU governments will be at war in the Financial sense, with the Vatican.
The largest sums of money that have ever been recorded will be
moved around the world looking for a save place to land.
As this money moves ,where it lands there will be joy and prosperity
But it will be very short lived as it will not settle for long .
Once it moves on the people will despair of ever having a good life.
This pool of money will get bigger and bigger.
The head of this money starts off being the pope .
Watch for the one who has final control of this fund.
Our joy will be directly affected according to how much joy we receive from
MONEY
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2013, 06:26:53 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 25, 2013, 06:11:03 PM
Jabcat, all those things people are saying are interesting but the guy who said the words "yes you can" is actually "thank you Satan" is a bit of a stretch. Sometimes I think people try to make things happen and use innocent people to accomplish it. I don't think Obama is anti-christ, he might have something to do with how things are going to play out but so does everyone else. I wonder about the ant-christ and if this didn't happen in 70AD, what does Gary say about this?
CHB
Did Christ return in 70 AD ?
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
--Mark 13:26
Has the first resurrection already happened?
I think Jesus will come again and I do think there will be a resurrection but as for the anti-christ I am not so sure.
CHB
John and Paul spoke of anti-christs(plural) and the anti-christ/ son of perdition(singular). IMO there have been and are many anti-christs. I think there will be a final anti-christ(physical embodiment/person) at the end of the age at the crescendo of the conflict in the earth between the Spirit of Christ and the anti-chist anti-christ spirit, just previous to the second coming. :2c:
IMO Obama does not scripturally qualify for "the anti-christ" who will be a spiritual figure, as well as a political one.
The youtube video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBuwQ1_P89w&feature=player_embedded was very interesting.. I looked up the word references
#1299/1300 Hebrew/Aramaic..? "baraq" lightning flash
#1116 - "bamah"
Wow! That is quite co-incidental, I have to admit! add the "poetry" of "O" or "U" in the middle, like he says, and it's even more interesting..!
From,
Quote from: jabcat on March 25, 2013, 09:42:17 AM
The fellow in the following states Jesus actually gave the name of the anti-Christ in the Aramaic in the scriptures, and shows why he thinks so and who he thinks it is in the following video. He uses scripture and references Strong's to show his evidence. The video is long, but what I'm mentioning is IN THE FIRST 4 MINUTES OF THE VIDEO. Thoughts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBuwQ1_P89w&feature=player_embedded
In connection with this, i've believed for some time now when it comes to the final "man of sin" (singular) that we can pinpoint an office he occupies, at least for a time, perhaps previous to his final seat of power, if we study and prayerfully consider rev 13:13.
Another (obvious!?) 'clue' from God..?!Rev 13, verses, 1-10 is the 'big' beast, or world beast.. (or world body which ends up acting like a beast which is what governments of man do)
Rev 13:11-18 is the 'little' beast, he's a man, for "we have his number" (or more specifically in verse 13:13, a particular office, two horned). This office brings fire from the sky in the sight of mankind. (I don't know how this is missed... but what about that new fire, atomic? in 1945!
What I am thinking is a u.s. president, whether presently at the time, or past at the time, has been in that office.. I believe will sit in the prime seat of the world beast. When that does occur it will give breath (authority, finally) to the world body.
To me, the Pope and the Holy Roman Empire, and the Roman Empire before it, are beasts (world and office) of a yesteryear.. Not the final 'last' days one..
It's my belief we shall see wars and rumors of wars concerning Israel then something thermal-nuclear (last I knew that's what it was called.. and atomic).. Which I think is the opening of the 7th seal, after the pause of atomic warfare, after it was first opened (
rev 7:1, unless this verse, and just previous, which is the 6th seal are known, you might not know what I'm talking about:) will paste..
Isn't Israel supposed to wipe out 'Damascas'? Or something.. I'm not real familiar with Ezekiel which is where I believe it's prophesied.. Any Ezekiel buffs?
So I think this occurs before the man of sin is revealed and steps up to the plate..
Most Bible prophecy buffs have thought of all the revelation characters as the Pope and the RC church.. The [1]world beast; [2]the man/office/little beast/eventually the 666 guy; [3]the false prophet(teaching); [4]$ity BabbleOn gone global, all 7 continents; and; [5]her forehead responsible for all slain upon Earth, Mystery Babylon/Babble.. all confusion and error, the psyche of the fallen into error world.
I'm not making sense? :laughing7: please let me know if you can see what I'm trying to say, after reading the following..
Revelation 6:12-17 (New King James Version) note:seals are described as a blend of (a)what they are when 1st opened and (b)what they are when fully matured - this locks the vision for a time..
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man,
hid themselves in the caves" (and in bomb shelters, I remember!) "and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Revelation 7:1-3 (New King James Version)
7 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." (atomic warfare paused until foreheads sealed 144,000 of Israel - mt 23:39 - and a great crown unable to number)
Revelation 13 (NKJV)
snipped for brevity.. I think prophecy is not always given in proper order, or order of fulfillment
13 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea.. And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded" (expired, fell apart,Dan 9:27, "covenant" 7yr, hebrew ="league") and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship" (be in allegience to) "
him, whose names have not" (yet) "been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world..
....11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs,
so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth
by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast,
telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived"(2nd version). 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image" (panel? w/ a circle of horns on its head?seats?) "of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast" (swear allegience) "to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
..it's my belief these political forces make a 7 year peace treaty, whether world or middle east (...?)
and the 666 days will be 45 (b'cause of the numbers of Daniel 12:11,12)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there have been times of 'fast forward' often.. perhaps just very recently.. (shown to some of God's people by this little illustration of Pres. Obama on a donkey to Jerusalem, also coinciding with world frog day.. not that it makes things imminent, imo.. :smile: :2c: (now back to reading the rest of this thread:)
Quote from: eaglesway on March 25, 2013, 08:25:36 PM
John and Paul spoke of anti-christs(plural) and the anti-christ/ son of perdition(singular). IMO there have been and are many anti-christs. I think there will be a final anti-christ(physical embodiment/person) at the end of the age at the crescendo of the conflict in the earth between the Spirit of Christ and the anti-chist anti-christ spirit, just previous to the second coming. :2c:
IMO Obama does not scripturally qualify for "the anti-christ" who will be a spiritual figure, as well as a political one.
:iagree: Eaglesway.. with what you said about the man of sin, plural and singular, and the word crescendo fits into the Book of Revelation perfectly as many things in Revelation are like tones of music which begin, and add to, and continue to the 'end' like an increasing crescendo.. (and visions within visions)
..and I agree the final man of sin (singular) will be many different things to many different factions.. including spiritual.. but it may also be true that if he be on the world scene currently, perhaps not all his face is revealed.. :dunno:
CHB, I'm not sure exactly where Gary is on this. He has many preterist leanings, but the most clearly I've heard him on that is, "we need to pay attention, some major things happened in 70 AD". I THINK for one, he means the end of temple worship, the "final piece of the move" from Law-grace, etc...
I've also heard him say "I'm not saying some things might not have double fulfillment", i.e., something that prophetically happened already may have some sort of repeat, even bigger future occurrence. So IMO, that's not "hard and fast" either way on a total fulfilled or future perspective. :2c:
marie, yes, interesting - whether everything fits for finality, I personally just don't know. I'm watching. I also believe as you mention, some things are stretched to fit sometimes, and even imagined...and since Revelation is basically a huge puzzle for me of which I can put very few pieces together, I'm not the best one to say. :mblush:
Blessings.
Thanks Jab,
I wonder about the double fulfillment also? You know, I do think we are in the later days but am not sure about any thing that is suppose to happen. Things can build up to a climax very fast. I have a feeling we will not make it past 2030.
CHB
here's a shorter version of my earlier babbling.. :eyebrow:
a revelation riddle
1945 pinpoints an office
the man of sin
once was in
:wacko2:
revelation 13:13
(beast 2)
A Thief in the Night
In Mathew 24, Jesus gives us many signs to look for which will signal the end of the Age. He tells us, .."when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."[v 33]. He says the generation that sees these things "shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." [v 34]
He goes on to tell us that many will not be aware the end is near. They will be drinking and marrying as in the days of Noah. But, to his servants, the Saints, he declares:
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
He is telling us to watch and he has shown us what to watch for, but then he goes on to tell a somewhat puzzling parable:
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
What is Jesus talking about here? He tells us to watch because we don't know what hour he will return. Then he says, if you knew what watch the thief [Jesus] was going to come you would have watched and he would not have broken up your house. This implies we could know what watch he will come. It also stresses how important it is that we do. He refers here to a watch during which He will return. The watch refers to the three night watches of the watchmen on the tower.
The Master will make the servant who is watching, and therefore able to feed the others meat in due season, a ruler over all his goods when he returns. We receive another clue as to the watch here:
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.--Luke 12
Now we know the Blessed servants will be watching in the second or the third watch. The second watch is 10pm-2am, the third watch is 2am-sunrise. Are we to start sleeping in the day and watching by night? Every sailor knows the night watches are the loneliest of all.
Yet, we know it is the one watching at the Lord's return who will keep his garments of immortality, Again, Jesus tells us he is coming like a thief. Again we are told we must watch at night because that is when thieves come. To walk naked is to be mortal. But, the blessed will be watching and able to put on the wedding garments of immortality for the marriage supper.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. --Rev 16
It behooves us therefore to be prepared when he returns. The ones who are the Blessed will be ready. Does that mean we can know when he will be returning?
We know that he will return at the last trump, the seventh trumpet of Revelation, and that this is the Feast of Trumpets. On this feast, the priests go to the roof of the Temple and look into the dark sky for the first sliver which signals the appearance of the new moon. When they see the moon, they signal to the people that the Feast of trumpets has begun. Because the priests might have to look for this moon over a two day period, this is the feast which Christ was referring to when he said no man knows the day or the hour.
So we don't have to become night owls and turn our days into night. We know what two days we need to be looking for him, and we know the appointed season, the Feast of Trumpets.
In another parable, he tells us he is coming in the middle of the night, and that some of the bride will be ready for him, some not. For those who are ready, he will be the bridegroom. To those not ready, he will be as a thief in the night.
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
--Mat 25
Clearly it is very important that we know when to watch for his return. The whole Christian world tells us we are not to know when that time will be. But, what does the Bible tell us? Will he come as a thief in the night to those Blessed servants who know when he is coming and are watching for him?
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
--1 Thess 5
We will know when he will return and we will be watching for him, because he has made it easy for us. He has told us what signs to look for and what season he will appear, even the time, the second watch on the Feast of Trumpets.
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. [Heb 9:28]
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
--Luke 21:36
To Be Cont'd....
Interesting post Moll.
Quote from: Molly on March 27, 2013, 06:25:47 AM
A Thief in the Night
In Mathew 24, Jesus gives us many signs to look for which will signal the end of the Age. He tells us, .."when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."[v 33]. He says the generation that sees these things "shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." [v 34]
He goes on to tell us that many will not be aware the end is near. They will be drinking and marrying as in the days of Noah. But, to his servants, the Saints, he declares:
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
He is telling us to watch and he has shown us what to watch for, but then he goes on to tell a somewhat puzzling parable:
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
What is Jesus talking about here? He tells us to watch because we don't know what hour he will return. Then he says, if you knew what watch the thief [Jesus] was going to come you would have watched and he would not have broken up your house. This implies we could know what watch he will come. It also stresses how important it is that we do. He refers here to a watch during which He will return. The watch refers to the three night watches of the watchmen on the tower.
The Master will make the servant who is watching, and therefore able to feed the others meat in due season, a ruler over all his goods when he returns. We receive another clue as to the watch here:
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.--Luke 12
Now we know the Blessed servants will be watching in the second or the third watch. The second watch is 10pm-2am, the third watch is 2am-sunrise. Are we to start sleeping in the day and watching by night? Every sailor knows the night watches are the loneliest of all.
Yet, we know it is the one watching at the Lord's return who will keep his garments of immortality, Again, Jesus tells us he is coming like a thief. Again we are told we must watch at night because that is when thieves come. To walk naked is to be mortal. But, the blessed will be watching and able to put on the wedding garments of immortality for the marriage supper.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. --Rev 16
It behooves us therefore to be prepared when he returns. The ones who are the Blessed will be ready. Does that mean we can know when he will be returning?
We know that he will return at the last trump, the seventh trumpet of Revelation, and that this is the Feast of Trumpets. On this feast, the priests go to the roof of the Temple and look into the dark sky for the first sliver which signals the appearance of the new moon. When they see the moon, they signal to the people that the Feast of trumpets has begun. Because the priests might have to look for this moon over a two day period, this is the feast which Christ was referring to when he said no man knows the day or the hour.
So we don't have to become night owls and turn our days into night. We know what two days we need to be looking for him, and we know the appointed season, the Feast of Trumpets.
In another parable, he tells us he is coming in the middle of the night, and that some of the bride will be ready for him, some not. For those who are ready, he will be the bridegroom. To those not ready, he will be as a thief in the night.
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
--Mat 25
Clearly it is very important that we know when to watch for his return. The whole Christian world tells us we are not to know when that time will be. But, what does the Bible tell us? Will he come as a thief in the night to those Blessed servants who know when he is coming and are watching for him?
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
--1 Thess 5
We will know when he will return and we will be watching for him, because he has made it easy for us. He has told us what signs to look for and what season he will appear, even the time, the second watch on the Feast of Trumpets.
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. [Heb 8:28]
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
--Luke 21:36
To Be Cont'd....
Molly, thank you so much. You have very graciously and generously given many scriptures to study, ponder... I have done a few short studies on Watch and Pray and learned that Jesus often "commanded" that we watch and pray... of particular interest to me are the circumstances in Matt 26:36-46...I need to ponder on the connection between Matt 24 and Matt 26... Oh yes, of particular (passionate) interest to me is Matt 24:37 ...days of Noe... I am deeply concerned about what we who are in Christ (ark) should be doing ... v 42 seems to answer my question WATCH... again thanks Molly, Watch/pray aka anna274, goodreport, seekfirst
The ekklesia at Mount Sinai--the initiation of the feast of Trumpets
10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
--Ex 19
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
--Exodus 19
After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. [Hos 6:2]
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
--Lk 13:32
Michael Rood--Feast of Trumpets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtvVxKzqoHw
The Seventh Trumpet of Revelation
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
--Rev 10
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
--1 Cor 15
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
--1 Thess 4
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Mat 24
Handel--The Trumpet Shall Sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYTQ6gpcuYA
Quote from: Molly on March 28, 2013, 06:45:06 AM
The ekklesia at Mount Sinai--the initiation of the feast of Trumpets
10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
--Ex 19
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
--Exodus 19
After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. [Hos 6:2]
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
--Lk 13:32
Michael Rood--Feast of Trumpets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtvVxKzqoHw
Molly, thanks for this link it was really interesting.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on March 28, 2013, 03:21:56 PM
The Seventh Trumpet of Revelation
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
--Rev 10
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
--1 Cor 15
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
--1 Thess 4
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Mat 24
Handel--The Trumpet Shall Sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYTQ6gpcuYA
And the
seventh angel poured out his
vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying,
It is done(finished). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
(Rev 16:17-20)
Just a tip from out my personal studies of Revelation over the last 30 years- examine or disregard as ye wish :o)
If you examine the pouring out of the vials as a sequence following each trumpet(line up the trumpets and the bowls-first trumpet/first bowl, second trumpet/second bowl, etc.), an interesting algorithm appears and the understanding of Revelation as a wheel with spokes(various narrative sequences, like the trumpets, the bowls, the two witnesses) running to a hub(the universal revelation of Jesus Christ) appears. Everything from revelation chptr 8 to the end is the contents of the seventh seal. The seventh seal is the rim of the wheel.
The first 5 chapters reveal the Lamb as the messenger to and Lord of the churches(Rv 1:5-7), as well as the Messiah of all men(Rv 5:13,14)- a first layer of comprehensive revelation unveiling elements of this whole age.
In the sixth chapter the Lamb opens Daniels sealed book(Da 12:9).(IMO Daniel corresponds to John as the pre-eminent prophets, each of their entire age, receiving prophecies that reveled both the primary historical streams and the primary spiritual streams of their respective ages)
IMO, The first 6 seals reveal the primary streams/spirits of this age, beginning the death burial and resurrection of the Lamb and the church in its infancy and ending with the second coming of Christ and the beginning of the millenial age. The seveth seal reveals the outworking of those streams through the age, always pointing towards a crescendo to conclude at the end of the age- a revelation of Jesus Christ to all men, the veil that covers the peoples removed upon Mt Zion, etc.
In other words.....The six seals are second layer of revelation unveiling this whole age.
Seals:
1 The message of the gospel of Jesus
2 The wars of men attempting to pre-empt the kingdom
3 The increasing dominion of the rule of law
4 The increasing dominion of international commerce
5 The filling up of the priesthood of the overcomers through martyrdom
6 The destruction of the rule of men by the sovereign hand of God and the revelation of the reigning/raining presence of God among His people as the kingdom of God overtaking the whole earth.
_______________________________
The second coming is seen in john's apocalypse 3 times(Rv 6:16,17;Rv11:15-19;Rv 19:11-20) - NOT because there are 3 second comings as J. Phineas Dake, and others like him assumed (in their chronological understanding of the revelation).
The second coming is seen 3 times(at least) in Revelation because there are series of simultaneously occurring sequences, all spokes of revelation in a wheel that always turns around the central theme- THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST TO ALL.
:2c:
Odes of Solomon 23 referencing the sealed document sent by God..is one of the great mysteries
of the collection.
v 5 and His thought was like a letter;His will descended from on high,and it was sent like
an arrow violently shot from the bow. and many hands rushed to the letter to take it an seize it and read it
and it escaped their fingers,and they were afrightened at it and the seal that was upon it.
Because it was not permitted them to loose it's seal.........but those who saw it went after the letter
that they might know where it would alight and who should read it,and who should hear it........
BUT A WHEEL RECEIVED IT AND COME OVER IT........and there was with it a sign of the kingdom
and the Government...........
v 19 and the letter was a great volume,which was wholly written by the finger of God; and the name
of the Father was on it, and of the Son and of the Holy spirit,to rule forever and ever.
Quote from: Molly on March 28, 2013, 06:45:06 AM
The ekklesia at Mount Sinai--the initiation of the feast of Trumpets
10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
--Ex 19
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
--Exodus 19
After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. [Hos 6:2]
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
--Lk 13:32
The writer of Hebrews refers to this specifically and expressly :o)
For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire(Sinai), and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED." And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling."
But you have come to Mount Zion(our New Third Day Gathering/Feasting Place :o) and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. (Heb 12:18-24)
"Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples".
Eaglesway, just to let you know, I am taking the position, for now, that the sequence is the 7 trumpets followed by the 7 vials/bowls of wrath, that the elect are raptured at the beginning of the blowing of the 7th trumpet, that the elect will be on earth throughout the great Tribulation, that the 7th trumpet is also known as the day of the Lord, that immediately following the rapture the vials of wrath are poured out on the earth [because we are not appointed to wrath we are removed first], and that the wicked are removed from the earth, that both immortals [sons of God] and mortals [those non Christians who have made it through the day of the Lord, even some non raptured Christians and Jews] will live together on earth during the millenium, that those mortals living on earth during the millenium will be very long lived as men were in the early chapters of Genesis, that the now glorified Saints will be ruling and reigning on earth with Jesus for 1000 years.
Also, that we are beginning the 7th day from Adam [6000 years are past] which is also the beginning of the 3rd day [resurrection day] from Christ [2000 years have past], so these end times events, and the resurrection and glorification of the Saints, are upon us.
In other words, I am reading this pretty much completely literally and just trying to work out an order of events for myself. But for now, I'm concentrating on trumpets since it symbolizes one of the promises of Easter [Passover].
So Ill just keep plodding along in my literal fashion. But, it is a work in progress. :winkgrin: :2c:
Thats Ok..... I am just posting my opinions :o) I will say tho that I think the sequenced relationship of the bowls and trumpets works literally AND historically. When I discovered it 25 years ago I was pretty much a total literalist. Even from a strictly literal approach- the apocalypse is a series of visions culminating in the second coming-imo :o) Since the seventh trumpet(last trumpet) is the first ressurection- according to Paul and Jesus, How can there be all those events after it? No need to respond, just posing a hypothetical question. Since the two witnesses occur before the seventh trumpet, and since the seveth trumpet commances the kingdom (Rv 11:15) a strictly literal interpretation makes it impossible for the bowls to come after it, IMO.
Eaglesway, It works for me because I see the 7th trumpet as the day of the Lord. Others seem to think the great tribulation is the wrath of God, so they believe in pre-trib rapture, but it's not. The tribulation is the final birth pangs of the sons of God. The mystery is finished at the beginning of the 7th trumpet, at the end of the great Tribulation, when the elect is raptured. They are being 'changed' into their immortal bodies as the day of the Lord is beginning, which will be the pouring of God's wrath on an evil and unrepentant world. Those two things will happen almost simultaneously Then, it will be the end of the age and we will move into the millenium, the day of rest--1000 years is a day with the Lord. :2c:
Except for the elect, the day of the Lord is not going to be gentle Jesus, meek and mild, --it's going to be the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
The great day of the Lord is near,
near and hastening fast;
the sound of the day of the Lord is bitter,
the mighty man cries aloud there.
15 A day of wrath is that day,
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and devastation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 a day of trumpet blast and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the lofty battlements.
17 I will bring distress on men,
so that they shall walk like the blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord;
their blood shall be poured out like dust,
and their flesh like dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold
shall be able to deliver them
on the day of the wrath of the Lord.
In the fire of his jealous wrath,
all the earth shall be consumed;
for a full, yea, sudden end
he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.
--Zephaniah 1
Quote from: Molly on March 28, 2013, 10:53:55 PM
Eaglesway, It works for me because I see the 7th trumpet as the day of the Lord. Others seem to think the great tribulation is the wrath of God, so they believe in pre-trib rapture, but it's not. The tribulation is the final birth pangs of the sons of God. The mystery is finished at the beginning of the 7th trumpet, at the end of the great Tribulation, when the elect is raptured. They are being 'changed' into their immortal bodies as the day of the Lord is beginning, which will be the pouring of God's wrath on an evil and unrepentant world. Those two things will happen almost simultaneously Then, it will be the end of the age and we will move into the millenium, the day of rest--1000 years is a day with the Lord. :2c:
Except for the elect, the day of the Lord is not going to be gentle Jesus, meek and mild, --it's going to be the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
The great day of the Lord is near,
near and hastening fast;
the sound of the day of the Lord is bitter,
the mighty man cries aloud there.
15 A day of wrath is that day,
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and devastation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 a day of trumpet blast and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the lofty battlements.
17 I will bring distress on men,
so that they shall walk like the blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord;
their blood shall be poured out like dust,
and their flesh like dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold
shall be able to deliver them
on the day of the wrath of the Lord.
In the fire of his jealous wrath,
all the earth shall be consumed;
for a full, yea, sudden end
he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.
--Zephaniah 1
I am pretty much agreement with that, altho I see the shaking of everything that remains to be shaken(wrath of God) as a process through this entire age, the final pangs of which occur during the last three and a half years of the 'great tribulation". I also see the seventh trumpet as the revelation of the sons of God/first ressurection (rom 8; rev 19) and the beginning of the ministry of reconciliation and restoration of the world, under the rod of iron. Peter describes this as the 'present world being reserved for fire' in which the 'elements(stoicheon, elemental principles or foundations) will be consumed" making way for a "new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells"(earth and heaven merge creating a tabernacle of righteousness- the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as water covers the sea)- this, to me, is the purpose of the millenial age- which I also see as the Day of the Lord(Peter.."one thousand years is as a day, a day as 1000 years"). This Day is often portrayed i scriptural snap-shots, in my opinion, that represent the process that will be occuring over the whole course of time-1000 year jubilee -the renewing of the earth.
It is impossible of course to fully address such things in sound bytes- but it is incredibly interesting for sure.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 28, 2013, 11:32:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 28, 2013, 10:53:55 PM
Eaglesway, It works for me because I see the 7th trumpet as the day of the Lord. Others seem to think the great tribulation is the wrath of God, so they believe in pre-trib rapture, but it's not. The tribulation is the final birth pangs of the sons of God. The mystery is finished at the beginning of the 7th trumpet, at the end of the great Tribulation, when the elect is raptured. They are being 'changed' into their immortal bodies as the day of the Lord is beginning, which will be the pouring of God's wrath on an evil and unrepentant world. Those two things will happen almost simultaneously Then, it will be the end of the age and we will move into the millenium, the day of rest--1000 years is a day with the Lord. :2c:
Except for the elect, the day of the Lord is not going to be gentle Jesus, meek and mild, --it's going to be the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
The great day of the Lord is near,
near and hastening fast;
the sound of the day of the Lord is bitter,
the mighty man cries aloud there.
15 A day of wrath is that day,
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and devastation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 a day of trumpet blast and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the lofty battlements.
17 I will bring distress on men,
so that they shall walk like the blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord;
their blood shall be poured out like dust,
and their flesh like dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold
shall be able to deliver them
on the day of the wrath of the Lord.
In the fire of his jealous wrath,
all the earth shall be consumed;
for a full, yea, sudden end
he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.
--Zephaniah 1
I am pretty much agreement with that, altho I see the shaking of everything that remains to be shaken(wrath of God) as a process through this entire age, the final pangs of which occur during the last three and a half years of the 'great tribulation". I also see the seventh trumpet as the revelation of the sons of God/first ressurection (rom 8; rev 19) and the beginning of the ministry of reconciliation and restoration of the world, under the rod of iron. Peter describes this as the 'present world being reserved for fire' in which the 'elements(stoicheon, elemental principles or foundations) will be consumed" making way for a "new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells"(earth and heaven merge creating a tabernacle of righteousness- the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as water covers the sea)- this, to me, is the purpose of the millenial age- which I also see as the Day of the Lord(Peter.."one thousand years is as a day, a day as 1000 years"). This Day is often portrayed i scriptural snap-shots, in my opinion, that represent the process that will be occuring over the whole course of time-1000 year jubilee -the renewing of the earth.
It is impossible of course to fully address such things in sound bytes- but it is incredibly interesting for sure.
Yes, I haven't given much thought to how any of it might apply to the last 2000 years or the millenium. I am only focused on the 3.5 years of the great Tribulation and the outpouring of God's wrath on the day of the Lord/7th trumpet. A lot of people will die, it will be a terrifying sight to those who experience it--I do not see it as spiritual or metaphorical but as something that will really happen the way it's described. It won't be a pretty picture.
Come together and hold assembly,
O shameless nation,
2 before you are driven away
like the drifting chaff,
before there comes upon you
the fierce anger of the Lord,
before there comes upon you
the day of the wrath of the Lord.3 Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land,
who do his commands;
seek righteousness, seek humility;
perhaps you may be hidden
on
the day of the wrath of the Lord.4 For Gaza shall be deserted,
and Ash′kelon shall become a desolation;
Ashdod's people shall be driven out at noon,
and Ekron shall be uprooted.
5 Woe to you inhabitants of the seacoast,
you nation of the Cher′ethites!
The word of the Lord is against you,
O Canaan, land of the Philistines;
and I will destroy you till no inhabitant is left.
6 And you, O seacoast, shall be pastures,
meadows for shepherds
and folds for flocks.
7 The seacoast shall become the possession
of the remnant of the house of Judah,
on which they shall pasture,
and in the houses of Ash′kelon
they shall lie down at evening.
For the Lord their God will be mindful of them
and restore their fortunes.
--Zeph 2
Quote from: sheila on March 28, 2013, 08:01:31 PM
Odes of Solomon 23 referencing the sealed document sent by God..is one of the great mysteries
of the collection.
v 5 and His thought was like a letter;His will descended from on high,and it was sent like
an arrow violently shot from the bow. and many hands rushed to the letter to take it an seize it and read it
and it escaped their fingers,and they were afrightened at it and the seal that was upon it.
Because it was not permitted them to loose it's seal.........but those who saw it went after the letter
that they might know where it would alight and who should read it,and who should hear it........
BUT A WHEEL RECEIVED IT AND COME OVER IT........and there was with it a sign of the kingdom
and the Government...........
v 19 and the letter was a great volume,which was wholly written by the finger of God; and the name
of the Father was on it, and of the Son and of the Holy spirit,to rule forever and ever.
What (or who) is the wheel Sheila?
Wheels within wheels with eyes all around. And the spirits of the living creatures was within the wheels, and wherever they went they went without turning, like lightning, from place to place. :o) Ezekiel
I see the wheel..and wheel within wheels..as the throne of God...His administration as Sovereign
over His creation.. He speaking and fulfilling His word..His teaching.The myriads upon myriads
that serve Him .Him sending forth His word..the going forth of it..as a circuit..accomplishing what
He sent it forth for[His will] and returning unto Him fulfilled.
much more to say about...watchers in the wings etc
Thanks! :HeartThrob:
The Two Witnesses of Revelation
Who are the two witnesses of Revelation? There are many ideas about this, but I am going to put forth the idea that it will be the end time church, who will have, like John the Baptist, the spirit of Elijah to announce the coming of Christ during the last 3.5 years before his return.
in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
--2 Cor 13:1
Jesus has commissioned his disciples to witness to the world. We see in Mathew 24 that this is also an end time command.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
--Mat 24
What will be the characteristics of God's end time witnesses? They will be witnessing to the world for the 3.5 years between the 6th and the 7th trumpet. They will be the temple of God [rev 11:1]. They will be humble, 'clothed in sackcloth,'[Rev 11:2]
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. [Rev 11:4]
Olive trees speak of Israel and candlesticks speak of the Gentile church. Thus, they will come from both groups. They will speak the word of God to an unrepentant world [fire will come out of their mouths Rev 11:5] They will have supernatural protection and power for 3.5 years and then they will be raptured at the 7th trumpet. This is the remnant of the church, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ' [Rev 12:17], who will be raptured at the beginning of the 7th trumpet, after they have been killed by Satan and lie dead in the square for 3.5 days.
We see them also described in Zechariah 4. Here they are called the two anointed ones, which in the Greek would be the two christos [christs]:
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. [Zech 4]
Two witnesses, two prophets, two anointed ones--the end time church will have the spirit without measure, just as Jesus himself did when he walked the earth during his 3.5 year ministry.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. [Rev 11:12]
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come on you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
--Acts 1:8
Quote from: eaglesway on March 28, 2013, 09:57:47 PM
Thats Ok..... I am just posting my opinions :o) I will say tho that I think the sequenced relationship of the bowls and trumpets works literally AND historically. When I discovered it 25 years ago I was pretty much a total literalist. Even from a strictly literal approach- the apocalypse is a series of visions culminating in the second coming-imo :o) Since the seventh trumpet(last trumpet) is the first ressurection- according to Paul and Jesus, How can there be all those events after it? No need to respond, just posing a hypothetical question. Since the two witnesses occur before the seventh trumpet, and since the seveth trumpet commances the kingdom (Rv 11:15) a strictly literal interpretation makes it impossible for the bowls to come after it, IMO.
I agree as I think the bowls are concurrent (I think the word is) as the 1st. Resurrection occurs, the going up, the bowls go down, like in 1?thess 5:7 (I think). He comes with His angels and fire.
I've never understood what/who are the 2 witnesses.. not sure wat role believers will play. I go back and forth between Holy Ghost filled believers, gentile and natural Israel, and the final man of sin (singular & plural) making war with the saints and overcoming them.
Quote from: MarieI agree as I think the bowls are concurrent (I think the word is) as the 1st. Resurrection occurs, the going up, the bowls go down, like in 1?thess 5:7 (I think). He comes with His angels and fire.
Yes the 7th trumpet announces the day of the Lord. As the trumpet
begins to sound the resurrection and rapture happens, because we are not appointed to wrath, followed by the day of the Lord, the beginning of the judgment on the world, and the bowls of the wrath of God are poured out upon the world. Take a look at this: the bowls of wrath are poured out during the ten days between the feast of Trumpets and the holiest day of the Jewish year, the day of Atonement.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
--Rev 19
Quote from: marie glen on March 31, 2013, 01:22:23 AM
I've never understood what/who are the 2 witnesses.. not sure wat role believers will play. I go back and forth between Holy Ghost filled believers, gentile and natural Israel, and the final man of sin (singular & plural) making war with the saints and overcoming them.
I think the problem people have with the two witnesses is that everyone thinks they are only two people. But they forget that Jesus sent his disciples out by twos because the Bible requires two witnesses for every matter.
One thing I realized recently, which you might consider, is the battle is fought in heaven and Satan is defeated and thrown out of heaven to earth for the last 3.5 years before the return of Jesus. This is why the great Tribulation, Satan is now on earth indwelling a man, and woe to the inhabitants of the earth.
But, the other piece of this is that Satan is no longer in heaven accusing us before God, day and night. We therefore come into our power as the Lord's christ [anointed ones] 3.5 years before Jesus returns and before we receive our glorified bodies!
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,
Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
--Rev 12
As always, I am so grateful to you Molly for the time, energy, enthusiasm you so graciously and generously share on this forum... the Scriptural support of your convictions greatly edifies as well as provides me with Scriptures to study, to check out (Berean style)...to help me connect dots in my own study of the end times...
I am interested... very interested in the "fire that will come out of their mouths"... since you are by your own admission a literalist... will there be actual fire?
Quote from: Watch/Pray on March 31, 2013, 01:39:06 AM
As always, I am so grateful to you Molly for the time, energy, enthusiasm you so graciously and generously share on this forum... the Scriptural support of your convictions greatly edifies as well as provides me with Scriptures to study, to check out (Berean style)...to help me connect dots in my own study of the end times...
I am interested... very interested in the "fire that will come out of their mouths"... since you are by your own admission a literalist... will there be actual fire?
It will feel like fire to those hearing it. You can see that happening on this very forum.
Will they see fire coming out of the mouths of the two witnesses? I have no doubt all sorts of supernatural things will be happening. This church will be very protected for the entire 3.5 years of the great Tribulation except as God may determine some need more purification through trials[Dan 11].
By the way, in my opinion it has already started, March 22, 2013.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
--Jer 23
Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2013, 01:35:24 AM
Quote from: marie glen on March 31, 2013, 01:22:23 AM
I've never understood what/who are the 2 witnesses.. not sure wat role believers will play. I go back and forth between Holy Ghost filled believers, gentile and natural Israel, and the final man of sin (singular & plural) making war with the saints and overcoming them.
I think the problem people have with the two witnesses is that everyone thinks they are only two people. But they forget that Jesus sent his disciples out by twos because the Bible requires two witnesses for every matter.
:Chinscratch: Oh! that is very interesting to apply those verses! :mthumbsup
..about Rev 12 tho, i've come to see that as a whole history (one of four inserts which help hide the vision for a time).. Although, I often think Bible prophecy has many levels or fulfillments.. so I will definitely have to ponder the last 3 and 1/2 years scenario.. How I've seen it is after the crucifixion, the opposer and his angels were no longer allowed access to heaven, and in great wrath he again pursued the woman inquisitioning and persecuting her (1st time in 70a.d with the migration of the truth which occurred, largely to europe). But this time she is given the two wings of an eagle to migrate with.
Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2013, 01:25:40 AM
Quote from: MarieI agree as I think the bowls are concurrent (I think the word is) as the 1st. Resurrection occurs, the going up, the bowls go down, like in 1?thess 5:7 (I think). He comes with His angels and fire.
Yes the 7th trumpet announces the day of the Lord. As the trumpet begins to sound the resurrection and rapture happens, because we are not appointed to wrath, followed by the day of the Lord, the beginning of the judgment on the world, and the bowls of the wrath of God are poured out upon the world. Take a look at this: the bowls of wrath are poured out during the ten days between the feast of Trumpets and the holiest day of the Jewish year, the day of Atonement.
I absolutely agree that the sounding of the trumpet (7th & last, otherwise there would be more than 7) is the return of Jesus, the 1st resurrection, and the catching away - Mt 24:29-31 "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. shall they see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven.. He shall send out His angels to gather His elect from all corners of the world"
And the verse I was thinking of (while texting via mobile) isn't 1 thess 5:7, but is 2 thess 1:7 and 8 "..when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire.." is one reason why I think the bowls which are in the 7th trump, occur pretty much simultaneously as likely (resumed) atomic warfare..
Why is it that you think the bowls of wrath are poured out during the ten days between the feast of Trumpets and the holiest day of the Jewish year, the day of Atonement? I do lean toward thinking things will occur during those Autumn Holy Days.. (and also think they prophecy and will be fulfilled by Jesus' (long) 2nd advent, with Day of 'Judgment' becoming (surprise!) Day of Atonement, when many will realize the truth of their salvation / reconciliation). Why you see the bowls of wrath as poured out during the ten days between Trumpets and Atonement, may be previous in the thread and I haven't read it yet :ghaha: but I'm interested in the idea..
Quote from: MarieWhy is it that you think the bowls of wrath are poured out during the ten days between the feast of Trumpets and the holiest day of the Jewish year, the day of Atonement?
Because, long story short, the ten days between the Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement [when the high priest comes out of the holy of holies and declares the people have been forgiven their sins for the past year] are called the days of Awe, and during this time we are supposed to be judging ourselves in preparation for the day of Atonement.
We see the saints in heaven at this time standing on the sea of glass, which is the sea of brass that the priests would stand before [the laver] and look at their reflection to see if anything is out of place, not perfect, judge their appearance, before they go before the LORD. So this is symbolic of judging ourselves to make ourselves worthy. While the saints in heaven are judging themselves, the 7 angels are pouring judgment upon the earth in the form of the 7 bowls of the wrath of God. Finally, on the day of Atonement the High Priest [Jesus] comes out of the holy of holies and announces, It is finished.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
--Rev 16
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
--Mat 28
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; [Mark 6:7
And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. (Revelation 11:3-4)
Molly, why do you think the 3.5 years began on March 22?
Deena,
I have been putting studies on this thread, in particular two youtubes recently, which I feel, out of all the things that I have looked at, most accurately describe the timing of Bible prophecy using the many parameters that are at our fingertips today. These agree with each other, although worked out by different people, on a date for the return of Christ that is supported by signs in the sky, by feasts, by a Jewish jubilee, by scripture describing the Jewish state, by the book of Daniel, and the book of Revelation. These are long studies, but I decided well worth watching. so I put them up here. Just counting backwards from that date, using the days given in Daniel, they arrived at Mar 22, 2013 as the beginning of the last 3.5 years before the return of Christ. Now, I realize that it seems not much happened that day or that week, but on the contrary, many remarkable things happened, imo, many of them unnoticed by the world. Some have already been mentioned in this thread. All of the scriptures in play right now have been discussed at length in this thread:
Psalm 83
Zechariah 12
1Thess 5:2
Isa 17:1
Eze 38
Isa 19
Daniel 9:27
If this is true, what is surprising to me is how quietly it all is playing out--so quietly that if I weren't looking for it, I would miss it. Of course, some would argue that it is quiet because the timing is wrong, and nothing is happening lol, and that's ok, too. But, for me, God has told us to watch for a reason--these things might only be revealed, at least at first, to those who are watching and reading scripture, and looking to compare the world with the description in prophecy. It is going to be all about Israel and the middle east. Watch Israel.
Here is an interesting youtube where a pastor is discussing the events of that week and how they fit into prophecy. I do not agree with his 'timing' conclusions at the end, obviously, but he touches on many of the important highlights relevant to scripture that are now upon us. Also, if you are really interested, go back and spend some time watching those long youtube studies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFknR0GTciE
Thanks for your reply. I read this prophecy thread from time to time, but most of it is beyond my understanding. I hope you are correct and the countdown is short. Come Jesus, quickly.
Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2013, 01:46:04 AM
Quote from: Watch/Pray on March 31, 2013, 01:39:06 AM
As always, I am so grateful to you Molly for the time, energy, enthusiasm you so graciously and generously share on this forum... the Scriptural support of your convictions greatly edifies as well as provides me with Scriptures to study, to check out (Berean style)...to help me connect dots in my own study of the end times...
I am interested... very interested in the "fire that will come out of their mouths"... since you are by your own admission a literalist... will there be actual fire?
It will feel like fire to those hearing it. You can see that happening on this very forum.
Will they see fire coming out of the mouths of the two witnesses? I have no doubt all sorts of supernatural things will be happening. This church will be very protected for the entire 3.5 years of the great Tribulation except as God may determine some need more purification through trials[Dan 11].
By the way, in my opinion it has already started, March 22, 2013.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
--Jer 23
Thanks Molly for the quick reply. I needed some time to consider your BTW March 22, 2013 especially as it was such a great day for me... God delivered me of one of my "besetting" sins...one that I have tried to overcome, prayed about for almost eight years... finally, I just simply told God "I can't stand this deep, deep anger anymore, please take it." He did! I have a huge calendar on the wall beside my desk, computer, etc., on which I scribble important reminders "Water all the plants, check the freezer for out of date items, email Vi (my youngest sister)" etc., etc., when I read your reply and saw March 22... I immediately looked at my calendar and saw scribbled in huge letters FREE! This morning I was reminded through Deena's question that I should share the importance of March 22, 2013 to me personally... I'm so grateful that you continue to keep end times before us...
reminds me of Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. I'm also reminded that I fall short of what the Lord has called me to do during these days of evil--> Intercessory prayer.
Quote from: Watch/PrayThanks Molly for the quick reply. I needed some time to consider your BTW March 22, 2013 especially as it was such a great day for me... God delivered me of one of my "besetting" sins...one that I have tried to overcome, prayed about for almost eight years... finally, I just simply told God "I can't stand this deep, deep anger anymore, please take it." He did! I have a huge calendar on the wall beside my desk, computer, etc., on which I scribble important reminders "Water all the plants, check the freezer for out of date items, email Vi (my youngest sister)" etc., etc., when I read your reply and saw March 22... I immediately looked at my calendar and saw scribbled in huge letters FREE! This morning I was reminded through Deena's question that I should share the importance of March 22, 2013 to me personally... I'm so grateful that you continue to keep end times before us...
reminds me of Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. I'm also reminded that I fall short of what the Lord has called me to do during these days of evil--> Intercessory prayer.
I have been thinking about your post since I read it, Anna, and I've realized why it has shaken me so. As you know, I have been thinking about the two witnesses being a troop of people, maybe in every country of the world, who will witness as forerunners to the return of Christ the way John the Baptist did the first time around. The more I think about it, the more I can see them having a similar ministry to Jesus 3 years,-- healing, performing miracles, feeding the multitude, announcing the return of the Lord, calling to the last chosen ones to enter the ark, convicting the world of sin.
They will be given the spirit without measure, the way Jesus was, an unending supply of it through the olive branches
which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves[Zech 4]. This is the tree of God with the sap running high. Anyway, their ministry is supposed to be during the great Tribulation, and therefore preparations for it, at least, would also have had to begin on March 22, so when I saw your word, FREE!, I just about flipped out because these will be the first to enter into the glorious freedom of the sons of God.
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
4
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
--Mal 4
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [2 Peter 1]
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28
And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
--Rev 2
The Book of Daniel mentions the 'Rapture'
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
--Dan 12
The great tribulation, or Jacob's trouble:
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time --Dan 12:1
Jesus quotes this:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24
The rapture:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,every one that shall be found written in the book. [Dan 12:1]
"delivered"
H4422
מלט
mâlaṭ
maw-lat'
A primitive root; properly to be smooth, that is, (by implication) to escape (as if by slipperiness); causativelyto release or rescue; specifically to bring forth young, emit sparks: - deliver (self), escape, lay, leap out, let alone, let go, preserve, save, X speedily, X surely.
The Jews will also be part of the first resurrection:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2
The word everlasting is, of course, olam.
I wonder about that word, 'contempt.' I am thinking that these will not receive glorified bodies, but will enter the Millenium among the very long lived humans who will live on earth at that time. I am also thinking there might be some Christians among this group, as well as good people from other cultures and religions. [Why Christians? This verse: But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth! Rev 3:16]
The word, shame in Dan 12:2, seems likewise to be a reference to human nakedness. We see this concept also in the New Testament [perhaps likewise referring to a carnal or physical, but long lived, body].
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16
These will have another Age to 'get it right.'
He is the God of second chances!
http://bible.org/seriespage/god-second-chances-joshua-101-28
By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. [Heb 11:24]
[Acts 7:23 "When Moses was forty years old, he decided to visit his own people, the Israelites.]
He chose to share the oppression of God's people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. [Heb 11:25]
[Acts 7:34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.']
He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. [Heb 11:26]
[1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.]
Quote from: Molly on April 01, 2013, 11:08:41 AM
The Book of Daniel mentions the 'Rapture'
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
--Dan 12
The great tribulation, or Jacob's trouble:
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time --Dan 12:1
Jesus quotes this:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24
The rapture:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,every one that shall be found written in the book. [Dan 12:1]
"delivered"
H4422
מלט
mâlaṭ
maw-lat'
A primitive root; properly to be smooth, that is, (by implication) to escape (as if by slipperiness); causativelyto release or rescue; specifically to bring forth young, emit sparks: - deliver (self), escape, lay, leap out, let alone, let go, preserve, save, X speedily, X surely.
The Jews will also be part of the first resurrection:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2
The word everlasting is, of course, olam.
I wonder about that word, 'contempt.' I am thinking that these will not receive glorified bodies, but will enter the Millenium among the very long lived humans who will live on earth at that time. I am also thinking there might be some Christians among this group, as well as good people from other cultures and religions. [Why Christians? This verse: But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth! Rev 3:16]
The word, shame in Dan 12:2, seems likewise to be a reference to human nakedness. We see this concept also in the New Testament [perhaps likewise referring to a carnal or physical, but long lived, body].
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16
These will have another Age to 'get it right.'
He is the God of second chances!
http://bible.org/seriespage/god-second-chances-joshua-101-28
Another viewpoint
The resurrection referred to in Daniel is not (imo) the first resurrection because it involves both those resurrected to glory and those resurrected to shame. This is the second resurrection, which involves judgment. The first resurrection is for the overcomers of all the ages and only involves reward.
That their will be a time of great tribulation is certain. That the people of God will be rescued out of it I believe as well, but not by a "rapture"- because "the dead in Christ rise first, at the last trumpet, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye".
Paul says not to be fooled. We will by no means precede the dead- they will precede us.
Jesus says, "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" He will send forth His angels to gather His elect with the archangel shout and the trumpet sound.
There can only be ONE first resurrection, or it isnt the first- and Paul tells us it occurs at the second coming of Christ. There is only ONE second coming of Christ, or there would have to be a third and a fourth(spoken of nowhere).
The dead in Christ rise first and we who remain alive will be caught up to meet them in the clouds and thus shall we ever be with the Lord. This catching away, which has become known as the rapture, occurs at the second coming of Christ, along with the first resurrection.
I think the Lord has another rescue in mind.
He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the LORD, "My refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust!" For it is He who delivers you from the snare of the trapper And from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with His pinions, And under His wings you may seek refuge; His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark. You will not be afraid of the terror by night, Or of the arrow that flies by day; Of the pestilence that stalks in darkness, Or of the destruction that lays waste at noon. A thousand may fall at your side And ten thousand at your right hand, But it shall not approach you. You will only look on with your eyes And see the recompense of the wicked. For you have made the LORD, my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place. No evil will befall you, Nor will any plague come near your tent. For He will give His angels charge concerning you, To guard you in all your ways. They will bear you up in their hands, That you do not strike your foot against a stone. You will tread upon the lion and cobra, The young lion and the serpent you will trample down. "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him; I will set him securely on high, because he has known My name. "He will call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will rescue him and honor him. "With a long life I will satisfy him And let him see My salvation."
(Psa 91:1-16)
Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
(Rev 12:6)
Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course. For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.
(Isa 26:20-21)
These are the days when we ought to listen....
Today if you hear His voice....
Let the one who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches....
Like I said, just another viewpoint :o)
"But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.' "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
(Mat 25:6-10)
"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah
entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
(Luk 17:26-27)
The ark is the secret place of the most high.
Behold, we heard of it in Ephrathah, We found it in the field of Jaar. Let us go into His dwelling place; Let us worship at His footstool.
Arise, O LORD, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. Let Your priests be clothed with righteousness, And let Your godly ones sing for joy. For the sake of David Your servant, Do not turn away the face of Your anointed. The LORD has sworn to David A truth from which He will not turn back: "Of the fruit of your body I will set upon your throne. "If your sons will keep My covenant And My testimony which I will teach them, Their sons also shall sit upon your throne forever." For the LORD has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His habitation. "
This is My dwelling place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it. (Psa 132:6-14)
Quote from: EWThen the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
(Rev 12:6)
Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course. For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.
(Isa 26:20-21)
This is Jews [the woman] and Christians during the great tribulation and before the return of Christ, imo. It says the LORD is
about to come out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth--it hasn't happened yet. During the great tribulation, 2/3's of the Jews will die, and a remnant will be protected through the tribulation in a place prepared for her in the wilderness. But, Daniel is talking about the dead rising and the Jews who are written in the book being 'delivered' on the return of Christ [Michael]--that sounds to me like the same rapture the Christians will be experiencing.
The great Tribulation is also known as Jacob's trouble and will be a very difficult time for the Jews.
QuoteThe resurrection referred to in Daniel is not (imo) the first resurrection because it involves both those resurrected to glory and those resurrected to shame. This is the second resurrection, which involves judgment. The first resurrection is for the overcomers of all the ages and only involves reward.
I'm arguing this is not the case. The parable of the ten virgins, only 5 go into the marriage room with Christ. He says to the rest, I do not know you. In Revelation, we are told Christ will spit the lukewarm out of his mouth. We are also told some Christians will be found 'naked.' These do not receive glorified bodies, imo. The same is true of some Jews who are resurrected in the first resurrection to contempt and shame. So, with both the Jews and the Christians, it is saying many will receive a glorified body and some will not. Since we know the millenium will contain very long lived humans, those who are not glorified at the return of Christ will join these long lived humans going into the 1000 year reign of Christ.
What this is doing is equalizing the Jews and the Christians in terms of their fate, since Jews, even today, but particularly before the last 2000 years, can know Christ through the Old Testament alone. He is the Holy One of Israel, their Redeemer. Jews and Christians are both God's chosen people.
And then the sign of The Son of Man in Heaven will appear and then all the families of the earth will mourn, and they will see The Son of Man who comes on the clouds of Heaven with miracles and many praises. Mat 24:30
This says all the families on earth will mourn. We know that we won't mourn. If we were on earth, we would be jumping for joy. But, we won't be on earth, we will be going up to meet him in the air.
Revelation 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.
Again, all the peoples on the earth will mourn, even those who pierced him. But, those who pierced him are long dead. This means these Jews will be on earth at the first resurrection seeing just what he told them they would see--him coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory.
We have all pierced Him.
Quote from: lomarah on April 02, 2013, 01:43:05 AM
We have all pierced Him.
will you mourn when you see him coming in the clouds?
It says,
'even those who pierced him.' So that is not everyone. That's referring to a specific group.
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.
--Mark 14
I think God sees and sometimes describes things as a whole, or as its main peaks.. to God, I'm not sure He sees the 2 resurrections as having a 'long' gap between, or describes.. like with the 2 advents of Jesus, so often prophesied in one breath, and also like prophecy with its 'immediate' fulfillment and it's 'end' days or climax fulfillment. Just my :2c:
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2013, 02:40:26 AM
Quote from: lomarah on April 02, 2013, 01:43:05 AM
We have all pierced Him.
will you mourn when you see him coming in the clouds?
It says, 'even those who pierced him.' So that is not everyone. That's referring to a specific group.
Yes, I have already and have much more to mourn. I have pierced Him many many times. I know that we differ on these things Molly and I am not trying to argue and I certainly don't know much. But I am sure that whatever happens literally, these things are happening and have been happening in the Spirit for thousands of years. Note that Jesus told His disciples they would not pass away before they saw Him coming on the clouds.
As an interesting aside, Cardinal told me that one of the words for dust is also the same for clouds. Kinda cool!
Quote from: lomarah on April 02, 2013, 05:01:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2013, 02:40:26 AM
Quote from: lomarah on April 02, 2013, 01:43:05 AM
We have all pierced Him.
will you mourn when you see him coming in the clouds?
It says, 'even those who pierced him.' So that is not everyone. That's referring to a specific group.
Yes, I have already and have much more to mourn. I have pierced Him many many times. I know that we differ on these things Molly and I am not trying to argue and I certainly don't know much. But I am sure that whatever happens literally, these things are happening and have been happening in the Spirit for thousands of years. Note that Jesus told His disciples they would not pass away before they saw Him coming on the clouds.
As an interesting aside, Cardinal told me that one of the words for dust is also the same for clouds. Kinda cool!
Ok. I'm not really trying to elicit your feelings about it I guess. I'm trying to read the text and fit it all together in a consistent way. Jesus tells the high priest that he will see Jesus coming on the clouds in power and great glory. How will that happen unless the high priest is resurrected in the first resurrection and standing on earth when he returns? Also, at that time, we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, but if there is any time before that, I know I will be rejoicing, not mourning.
Mind you, the High priest understood what Jesus was saying there. Jesus was saying he was the cloud rider of the Old Testament who is the Son of God. That's why he accused him of blasphemy. Jesus was telling him that he was God.
I do not see where Jesus tells his disciples they would not pass away before they saw him coming on the clouds. That means he would be mistaken or he would be lying to them, because that did not happen. I see Jesus in Mathew 24 and Luke 21 giving them signs of the end, and telling them the generation that is alive when these signs happen will not pass away before they see him coming on clouds--and that's us!
These signs are birth pangs. At what other time in history would we be aware of earthquakes, famine, war, rumors of war, and so on other than this time in history where we have world wide news instantly communicated to us?
But, anyway....the meaning of scripture can turn on one word, it's worth it to keep reading it until it all makes sense to us.
He wasn't lying or mistaken! These things are happening in the Spirit!! It's incredibly exciting... the kingdom is within!
Quote from: lomarah on April 02, 2013, 05:39:02 AM
He wasn't lying or mistaken! These things are happening in the Spirit!! It's incredibly exciting... the kingdom is within!
You mean he is coming on the clouds only in spirit? Not in real life?
Then how does every eye of every non believer see him in spirit?
IMO, Every eye from the lowest in Sheol to the highest heaven will see Him because the veil will be rent.
The sign of the son of man will appear in the heavens and the veil of the heavens will be rent.
"Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the people."
IMO, We are that mountain.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN." This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(Heb 12:22-27)
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
(2Pe 3:7-12)
To me, As marie glen alluded too also, There is a sense of time transcendent events that occur when we die- the THIEF IS DEATH. No man knows the day or the hour. WE WILL ALL AWAKE IN THE MOMENT IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE. We are children of light, THE DAY DOeS NOT TAKe US LIKe A THief- if we are on the alert, that is, oil in vessels and the wick trimmed within our lamp.
Historically, it will occur for the overcomers of all the ages at the second coming. For everyone else, at the great white throne, at the end of the millenial age(imo).
The shaking and the fire are the same, when it is done there will be nothing left that can be shaken, death will be dead, God will be all in all, and all will be in the love of God. THe DAY IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS. Peter is giving us a clue, imo.
The foolish virgins are being shut out now. They do not have enough oil in their lamps to follow the path out(come out of her my people) and enter the wedding supper(union of the Bride and the Lamb).
The Bride, the city of God, heavenly Jerusalem and Zion are "coming down out of the heavens" (being revealed among men as the instrument of deliverance for the world- and the dwelling place of God),but only those who are "watching"and "on the alert" can here the word of the Lord.......
"THE BRIDEGROOM IS COMING"
The woman in rev 12 is "clothed with the sun"(the Spirit and the Bride say Come)- she is standing on the moon(reflected glory of law/Israel). She is giving birth to a manchild....
Until we all attain to a unity of faith(gestation), unto a mature man(manchild), unto the measure of the stature of the son of God, so that we will no longer be like children, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by the deceitful scheming of men(dragon)
IMO, All consciousness will see the coming of the Son of God. It will be the beginning of a thousand year DAY,at the end of which every thing that can be shaken will have been shaken- only that which cannot be shaken will remain.
wow! Beautiful, Eaglesway! :banana: :banana:
The Day of the LORD
6 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts.
--Haggai 2
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.
--Mal 3:1
Malachi 3:2
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXhmzj6YpzI
Do you see Malachi 3:1 as a Messianic prophecy of John the Baptist and Jesus? As end time? Both?
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2013, 05:13:55 PM
Do you see Malachi 3:1 as a Messianic prophecy of John the Baptist and Jesus? As end time? Both?
Both.
The Jews missed Jesus because they were expecting the Lion of the tribe of Judah who would fight for them. Instead, they got the suffering servant, Messiah ben Joseph, the Lamb, of Isaiah 53, first, and they didn't recognize him. The Lion is the second coming.
I am still waiting for someone to tell me how they missed him, though. To this day, they have virtually expunged Isaiah 53 from the Torah. Only God could make this happen, bringing a divine blindness on them until the fullness of the Gentiles.
In Malachi, Isaiah, and elsewhere, part of the scripture relates to the first coming and part to the second coming, and part overlaps.
Two Messiahs
http://jewishroots.net/library/messianic/two-messiahs-2.html
PS The second time when he comes to his temple, his temple will be us!
and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts. Haggai 2
This is a Revelation EVENTS upon EARTH outline - Part 1 :Chinscratch:
The only one worthy, opens the scroll of history and future, seal by seal
-- a white horse and rider come riding conquering & to conquer powers & principalities
--- a red horse and rider (ancient) rides into the new eon, war, he will be given a long sword
---- a black horse and rider come riding, shortage and pestilence, war/man's results
----- a pale horse and rider, pestilence, chemical, and the (mass) grave which follows
------ the blood of martyrs cries out to God.. and escalates (the seals gallop/progress)
------- an unprecedented fiery Opening and Occurrence, these seals told as BLENDS
of their BEGINNING & END (a lock on the vision) and verse 7:1 - this new wind is held
back (paused) for a while; the wind = rev 13:13/1945/ended ww2; many called & sealed
-------> seal seven is opened when the new warfare is re-released; in seal 7 is all the rest
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2013, 05:42:04 AM
Quote from: lomarah on April 02, 2013, 05:39:02 AM
He wasn't lying or mistaken! These things are happening in the Spirit!! It's incredibly exciting... the kingdom is within!
You mean he is coming on the clouds only in spirit? Not in real life?
Then how does every eye of every non believer see him in spirit?
The way the rest of us see Him! Just like Saul was an unbeliever and saw Him right? Like I said, I have no idea about what He has planned for the physical world, except that the spiritual manifests itself in the physical. Whatever happens I just cannot wait to see what He has planned!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: lomarah on April 02, 2013, 09:10:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2013, 05:42:04 AM
Quote from: lomarah on April 02, 2013, 05:39:02 AM
He wasn't lying or mistaken! These things are happening in the Spirit!! It's incredibly exciting... the kingdom is within!
You mean he is coming on the clouds only in spirit? Not in real life?
Then how does every eye of every non believer see him in spirit?
The way the rest of us see Him! Just like Saul was an unbeliever and saw Him right? Like I said, I have no idea about what He has planned for the physical world, except that the spiritual manifests itself in the physical. Whatever happens I just cannot wait to see what He has planned!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2013, 07:03:02 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2013, 05:13:55 PM
Do you see Malachi 3:1 as a Messianic prophecy of John the Baptist and Jesus? As end time? Both?
Both.
The Jews missed Jesus because they were expecting the Lion of the tribe of Judah who would fight for them. Instead, they got the suffering servant, Messiah ben Joseph, the Lamb, of Isaiah 53, first, and they didn't recognize him. The Lion is the second coming.
I am still waiting for someone to tell me how they missed him, though. To this day, they have virtually expunged Isaiah 53 from the Torah. Only God could make this happen, bringing a divine blindness on them until the fullness of the Gentiles.
In Malachi, Isaiah, and elsewhere, part of the scripture relates to the first coming and part to the second coming, and part overlaps.
Two Messiahs
http://jewishroots.net/library/messianic/two-messiahs-2.html
PS The second time when he comes to his temple, his temple will be us!
and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts. Haggai 2
I see it as both as well. That's why Peter's exhortation, "it is time for judgemnt to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem" is so powerful. A refiners fire and a fuller's soap will cleanse "the house" with the spirit of discernment and the spirit of burning- purging out the old leaven. For the glory of the latter house will be greater than the glory of the former house. I personally believe this is part of the function of the great tribulation( I kno that is a debatable point ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2013, 05:13:55 PM
Do you see Malachi 3:1 as a Messianic prophecy of John the Baptist and Jesus? As end time? Both?
I used to think it was likely both like most Bible prophecy (parallel or plural) but I don't really think that anymore and tend to think it was a special introduction of the humble and suffering Messiah, that is to say His first advent.
And I tend to think the saints will be warred with (spiritually) and losing at the close of the age,
another hour of darkness (with concrete signs given ahead of it so those alive and remaining at the time can avoid),
like which Jesus referred to His crucifixion as an hour of darkness, a fulfillment of the prophecy in the Garden of Eden that the serpent (a guise of the dragon) would bruise His heel. I don't believe any will put on incorruptibility, immortality, or superhuman feats, etc until the 1st resurrection and catching away. Imho. :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on April 03, 2013, 04:39:46 AM
[And I tend to think the saints will be warred with (spiritually) and losing at the close of the age, another hour of darkness (with concrete signs given ahead of it so those alive and remaining at the time can avoid),
What do you think this avoidance will look like? Molly and others have been posting about warning people of some things that appear to be coming, and in fact, some are already here - just not everyone has seen them clearly yet. I guess most won't, until it's actually experienced. Then many will still curse God and not repent. Some are teaching for believers to prepare for the period of tribulation. Some are "hiding away". I remember about 20 years ago a fine Christian woman told me there had been a vision or a word that folks in her circle would have a place to go, to be sheltered. Others say don't worry about it, God will provide/take care of us. Which I believe He will - but sometimes He may do so, at lest for some, by giving them a "heads-up", wisdom, and the means by which to prepare. I think of the warnings in Matthew 24 - whether some of that has been fulfilled or not - to steal away to the mountains, etc. For others, He may ask them to do nothing besides simply trust Him, and He'll simply fully miraculously deliver them. :2c:
Quote from: marie glen on April 03, 2013, 04:39:46 AM
I don't believe any will put on incorruptibility, immortality, until the 1st resurrection and catching away. Imho. :smile:
I agree. I believe I Cor. 15 pretty clearly describes that. When He physically returns, changed in a twinkling of an eye.
One thing I realized is that God begins his day at night. His day goes from sundown to sundown of the next day [for us]. So it stands to reason that if we are at the beginning of the 7th day it would be night time, and that he would return at the darkest part of the night or just after. Looking at it that way, it makes sense to me that things just seem to be getting darker and darker, and to me, this is a harbinger of his near return.
Daniel tells us the saints will be worn out by the antichrist, and even overcome by him until their power is gone [but I think he might be referring to the Jews, there]. The NT tells us to hold fast until the end, even though it also says there will be a great falling away and the love of many will grow cold. Whoever these two witnesses are, they will have supernatural powers as did the saints of old, Moses and Elijah. It will be the last call to a failing world.
:2c:
I believe it looked like Jesus was losing while He was being scourged. even more so as He cried, "My Father,My Father, why have you forsaken me." I believe the antichrist will be martyring saints who will be walking like Jesus walked, as sons on the earth- ready to lay down their lives for the glory of God and the reconciliation of men.
Rev 13:10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
Jesus was crucified. James slain by the sword. Peter, Stephen and Paul were killed and millions of saints have died around the world and through the ages and it is their blood that has brought us to where we are today, on the brink of the greatest revelation ever known to man.
The whole creation groans, eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God.
When you see these things begin to happen, REJOICE, your redemption is drawing near. Go upon your roof. Don't go back down into your house. Remember Lots wife.
We all "wear out like a garment" :o) The thinner the garment gets, the brighter the glory of God's love shines through:o)
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
(Dan 12:3)
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. --2 Thess 6-8
What does it mean to 'not obey the gospel' of our Lord Jesus?
To disobey the gospel of Jesus Christ.
A person would worry.
A person would be anxious.
A person would desire to know the secrets of the bible.
IMO, ET churches are disobeying the gospel. How?
By preaching a different good news "gospel" than the one Paul preached
which was "good news of great joy to all people" that the saviour had
come and took our penalty on his own self. ALL of us. Constantly preaching on
the subject of a mythical hell for "others" or even members that "didn't toe the line"
is another Gospel. It is not good news for all but bad news for 95% of "ALL"
Ded :thumbsup:
Jesus God Holy Spirit
Took care of everything. I rejoice with you Ded
Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2013, 05:47:57 AM
Quote from: marie glen on April 03, 2013, 04:39:46 AM
[And I tend to think the saints will be warred with (spiritually) and losing at the close of the age, another hour of darkness (with concrete signs given ahead of it so those alive and remaining at the time can avoid),
What do you think this avoidance will look like? Molly and others have been posting about warning people of some things that appear to be coming, and in fact, some are already here - just not everyone has seen them clearly yet. I guess most won't, until it's actually experienced. Then many will still curse God and not repent. Some are teaching for believers to prepare for the period of tribulation. Some are "hiding away". I remember about 20 years ago a fine Christian woman told me there had been a vision or a word that folks in her circle would have a place to go, to be sheltered. Others say don't worry about it, God will provide/take care of us. Which I believe He will - but sometimes He may do so, at lest for some, by giving them a "heads-up", wisdom, and the means by which to prepare. I think of the warnings in Matthew 24 - whether some of that has been fulfilled or not - to steal away to the mountains, etc. For others, He may ask them to do nothing besides simply trust Him, and He'll simply fully miraculously deliver them. :2c:
Surely many will be supernaturally protected, yet too Rev 20:4b seems to indicate many will suffer. Or I think "be caught unaware". Yet I think many of God's children hold pieces to the puzzle and if they can perhaps put those pieces together..
To me it seems important the specific signs Jesus said "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know it is nigh, right at the door" and of course that goes right along with Rev 16:14-16 (note vs 15 tucked right in between 14 and 16)
--14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs.. to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
---15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments," (faith!)
"lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
--16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.And remember too how Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said to Jerusalem
"you shall not see me again until you say `blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD`" - Implying when they do say such (i.e.believe) is when He will return. Also, imo, by that time, also applies rev 12:17
Then the other clear sign things are imminent, Jesus which said, "
when you see the abomination which desolates `set-up`.." likely in Israel first.. (It doesn't matter to last days, what past abominations were). Then He mentions Daniel, and says "
whoso reads, let him understand"!
And what was it Daniel said about an abomination which makes desolate?
Daniel 12:11,12
--"11 "
From the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days." OR, "three years and seven months after the daily sacrifice is taken away"
(note: the years are made up of Hebrew months, the 7th month is a leap month?)
Then verse 12 -
---"12
Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." Which is 45 days later.
Can you see it? It's 'set-up' but some happy event 45 days later, stops it.
The Amplified Bible says in the margin that the
abomination which desolates is the 66 & 6 apparatus or whatever one wants to call it. And that reverberated (clicked) for me. I'm never
happy in my studies and prayerful studies until it
C L I C K S in my spirit as T R U E. Just the way my mind works, I can't be happy when investigating until that point. (Otherwise restless with it, as is likely true for many others).
If someone should know the signs (my grandchildren? Though some recent events are causing me to rethink "when".) Why not take some preparations as they see the day approaching? Forty five days cannot buy or sell.. I'm thinking it escalates into Rev 20:4b (beheadings).. I'm thinking for the last "ten days". Although perhaps it could start earlier. Rev 2:10 refers to "ten days tribulation"...
Then of course Mt 24 says "immediately aFter the tribulation of those days.."
But mostly, for me, it's the sign Jesus gave "when you see the abomination which desolates, which Daniel spoke of.." (Daniel spoke of it twice, but imo, verses 12:11 and 12, have the most to do with 'end' days prophecy.)
What form of avoidance? I would think individual..
Quote from: Molly on April 03, 2013, 02:53:08 PM
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. --2 Thess 6-8
What does it mean to 'not obey the gospel' of our Lord Jesus?
According to the context of Hebrews chapter 4 which goes into it quite a bit, I believe it means to not "enter His rest" of believing we are saved by grace, by the
finished work of Jesus, who is now "our rest", instead of believing we are somehow good enough to earn our noble way in. Hebrews 4:1-3 and all Hebrews 4, says the message must be mixed with faith, and therefor it seems to me at His return (according to 2 Thess 1:6-8) it would be those not believing "saved by grace"/the finished work of Jesus, and by that time these ones are critically persecuting those who do.. Does this mean some 'churches' of the world will join in that persecuting? I do think so, as I think I see the spirit of it in the world already.
:Chinscratch: I'm not sure according to Bible prophecy, that things are "imminent" but of course I could be way wrong.. Surely the system will become more concretely "global" before 'the end'? ..I know in a past age, the world beast or body which was, then wasn't, and then was again was the Roman Empire, then the Holy Roman Empire.. But in today's world, I think the political world body is a different one from yesteryear.. Also, mainstream Bible prophecy buffs seem to think Babylon the Great is also the Holy Roman Empire and in its hey day, perhaps it was.. but I find it illogical that all characters of Revelation are the RC Church, and frankly, with today's politics and in today's world, I'm not seeing it.
If we read the description of the harlot, with babble on her forehead/psyche, which description is rev chapters 17 and 18, we see she has made the merchants rich by her charms, or what some translations call her enchantments (spells).. "harlot" the greek word, is "pornos" and "to sell" - she uses "pornos" to sell the long list of products of chapter 8, right down to the bodies and souls of persons.. By this "pornos" she has seduced the entire world, all seven continents/hills. She holds in her hand a GOLDEN cup of her abominations, aka, side effects, the murders, abortions, perversions, sex slave trade, and what not (the downfall of society). When she falls, no longer will the grinding wheel be heard in her and the merchants, made rich by her wealth/charms, etc, will mourn as do the kings/politicians who were in bed with her (fornicated with her).. Her forehead/pysche (all untruth/babble) is responsible for all slain upon Earth.
I think $iTy Babylon (and on) goes much more concretely global before 'the end' than presently 'she' is.
Surely too, the world beast/body will be much more concretely of power than presently is. Likely by its "head" now signing on, which it did not in its first (modern) appearance, thus it expired, yet came back.. Note: Daniel uses the word "covenant" this world beast (rev 13:1-10) makes with the world (or just in the middle east?) The Hebrew of Strong's, translated "covenant" also includes as a meaning, a "league".
If someone should know the signs (my grandchildren? Though some recent events are causing me to rethink "when".) Why not take some preparations as they see the day approaching? Forty five days cannot buy or sell.. I'm thinking it escalates into Rev 20:4b (beheadings).. I'm thinking for the last "ten days". Although perhaps it could start earlier. Rev 2:10 refers to "ten days tribulation"...
How would you suggest the hundreds of thousands of women?
Living now in the third world.
Where for two or three generations they have had to watch
their children starve to death .Their young sons either rape and kill the neighbors
children, or they them self's are killed beheaded in front of the rest of the family.
What sign should they look for so they can prepare for the forty five days
they cannot buy or sell.
Quote from: dajomaco on April 04, 2013, 12:43:29 AM
If someone should know the signs (my grandchildren? Though some recent events are causing me to rethink "when".) Why not take some preparations as they see the day approaching? Forty five days cannot buy or sell.. I'm thinking it escalates into Rev 20:4b (beheadings).. I'm thinking for the last "ten days". Although perhaps it could start earlier. Rev 2:10 refers to "ten days tribulation"...
How would you suggest the hundreds of thousands of women?
Living now in the third world.
Where for two or three generations they have had to watch
their children starve to death .Their young sons either rape and kill the neighbors
children, or they them self's are killed beheaded in front of the rest of the family.
What sign should they look for so they can prepare for the forty five days
they cannot buy or sell.
I have no idea, I did not speak the verses.. If Jesus spoke them only to His apostles, that's a narrower number. Nor is there any way for me to know what warnings any which great evil befall in this world would have.. The scripture verses are given for Christian followers.. Otherwise we could leave them out of the Bible.. But have no fear, Christian nations are fast escalating into pagan with all it's results.. perhaps few if any will even pay heed to what Jesus said about "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and "when you see the abomination that makes desolate `set-up`" nor the words which are at the beginning of the Book of Revelation "blessed are those who hear and heed.."
And remember, there was only one church of the 7 of Asia of the day which Jesus said would be kept safe through persecution times.. the church of Philadelphia, brotherly LOVE. And only one apostle who was not executed as his Lord was, although they all shared much glory.. John who always spoke of Love as being top.. and agape love of course, is not only of one's very own like minded.. even the 'sinners' do that..
I believe the words are for any one who can hear them. Any one understanding them, why would they bury them?
What do the verses I quoted seem to be saying? as far as you believe?
"when you see the abomination of desolation 'set-up' which Daniel spoke of (let the reader understand)" Though perhaps the parenthesis words were added by translators..? ""when you see the abomination of desolation 'set-up' which Daniel spoke of.." It is of course possible He spoke it only to natural Israel at the 'last' days.. and not also the grafted.. but that's narrower also.. Perhaps He spoke them for no reason.. :hiya:
Quote from: Molly on April 03, 2013, 02:53:08 PM
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. --2 Thess 6-8
What does it mean to 'not obey the gospel' of our Lord Jesus?
To not obey the gospel? :o) Who were those who troubled them? The Pharisees. The leaders of the political and religious structures(principalities and powers! One way to not obey good news is to make it into the bad news.
wars and rumors of wars
http://news.sky.com/story/1073563/north-korea-army-war-could-break-out-today
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24
"sorrows"
G5604
ωδίν
ōdin
o-deen'
Akin to G3601; a pang or throe, especially of childbirth: - pain, sorrow, travail.
Quote from: Molly on April 04, 2013, 07:37:56 AM
wars and rumors of wars
http://news.sky.com/story/1073563/north-korea-army-war-could-break-out-today
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24
"sorrows"
G5604
ωδίν
ōdin
o-deen'
Akin to G3601; a pang or throe, especially of childbirth: - pain, sorrow, travail.
...and of course the increase in tsunami's and earthquakes, etc, and the increase in their devastation.. I think lots of folks are pondering these things.. (unbelievers I mean)
Quote from: Molly on April 04, 2013, 07:37:56 AM
wars and rumors of wars
http://news.sky.com/story/1073563/north-korea-army-war-could-break-out-today
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24
"sorrows"
G5604
ωδίν
ōdin
o-deen'
Akin to G3601; a pang or throe, especially of childbirth: - pain, sorrow, travail.
Amen! ...i know what it's like to have a message and, Molly, at this time, it's your message I find myself pondering.. it seems like many if not most Bible prophecy buffs and scholars believe there will be limited thermal-nuclear warfare in the Middle East. (Is it still called atomic?) And they believe it's prophesied by Ezekiel. But who's to say there isn't another end (like 2 poles of something) of the devastation. Who is it many want to bomb? All assume Israel, but Israel seems pretty intact in final days. It doesn't hurt these days, for God's people to be a little prepared. ..We know "God will provide" but perhaps one of His ways of providing is to send out warnings to His people. Didn't He tell Israel to gather things before Exodus? And when they obeyed Him, their garments and their shoes didn't wax old..
I almost forgot! for Bible buffs and scholars, when thermal-nuclear warfare is released after this long pause since it was first released, i think is when the 7th seal is opened, bk of revelation 6:12-7:3.. Also, doesn't it seem likely Ezekiel's prophecies come to pass after 144,000 of Israel believe, and accept Jesus? (according to 7:3?)
:gsmile: :dontknow:
It doesn't hurt these days, for God's people to be a little prepared. ..We know "God will provide" but perhaps one of His ways of providing is to send out warnings to His people.
When I read the bible.
I see some of the things that the true Church
did to prepare for the End times.
They sold everything they had, and lived in community.
Are you suggesting we do the same.
There is a farm in Goergia that has done this since 1942 (concerning sharing everything in community.)
http://www.koinoniapartners.org/ (http://www.koinoniapartners.org/)
:URWelcome:
Ded thank you
Fantastic ,these are inspiring.
Quote from: dajomaco on April 05, 2013, 07:44:37 PM
It doesn't hurt these days, for God's people to be a little prepared. ..We know "God will provide" but perhaps one of His ways of providing is to send out warnings to His people.
When I read the bible.
I see some of the things that the true Church
did to prepare for the End times.
They sold everything they had, and lived in community.
Are you suggesting we do the same.
..actually, no.. more like common sense preparation like one should take in case of large storms, etc.
I never believed in Y2K but to see people laughing about the possibility, I thought was pretty naive.. Like nothing can ever happen to man's works..
I don't believe in a 7 year stretch of 'end' days (special) tribulation (there's always tribulation somewhere, yes?) or even 3.5 years, but according to the numbers of Dan 12:11 and 12, forty-five days with the last ten days being what many prophecy buffs call the great tribulation. I simply figure if there are two definitions of the 'end' days trouble.. the one of rev 13:18 which says no buying or selling, and the one of rev 20:4, it seems like it likely (imo) starts out as the 13:18 version and escalates to the 20:4 goings on.
I had a bit of a scare this weekend.. found a reference Bible which includes Maccabees, I've never really read any of those (apocrypha) but thought well, maybe I'll look at them.. so what's the first reference I notice? One to 2 Maccabees chapter
7 about the martyrdom of a mother and
7 sons; horrible story, don't read it! :smile: It came to my mind.. perhaps this coincides with the
7 (unwritten or unshared) thunders of the Book of Revelation! chapter 10 (Yikes, more reason to advise folks to avoid if possible, as it seems to me Jesus was saying.) But then later in the day I read a little more and there is included admonition to pray for the dead.. and also for the dead (nonliving) to pray for the living.. so I excused it as not God breathed (at least to the degree of Holy Writ).. though likely very good for history..
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 02:17:17 AM
Egypt [king of the south] fell into the hands of the Muslim brotherhood today. Rally for new President: Our capital shall be... Jerusalem, Allah willing. Our cry shall be 'Millions of martyrs march toward Jerusalem.'
http://rabbilive.com/RabbiLIVE/Home.html
Where's my prophecy thread?
Wow! I am reading Molly's posts (and others) especially the history posts! (The beginning of this thread.) I'm missing, probably lots of the history.. I noticed Molly mentioned Nazism and Islam, on this 1st page where I was reading a bit. I've heard originally the Nazis coached the modern day Muslims on some things.. I should probably google it and do a little research on it as I'm not remembering it very well..
But, I came here to post this,
I feel I know exactly where we are in the Bible prophecy timeline.. There's lots of smokescreens in, especially the Bk of Rev - by not telling things in order, by inserts, visions within visions, etc. (By describing the seals in a blend of their infancy and their 'old age'.) But it is my sincere belief we are exactly at, or during Bk of Rev 7:(3)4.
Two crowds (being) sealed on forehead/mind
metaphorically b4 the throne [during the pause of 7:1].
I believe the pause ends when thermo-nuclear (atomic?) "warfare" is (re) released, and believe this is the opening of the 7th seal, and then there is another pause, but not as long as the first one(7:1). Funny thing is, it doesn't come right out and say it.. but it has stuck with me that way, and now thinking about it, there's the 6th seal, broken/opened - which is thermal-nuclear (the 1st) - it's a new wind and it's paused - then the 7th seal is broken / pause of thermal-nuclear broken? - so thermal-nuclear again.. then a space of time while the angels with trumpets line up, and before the 1st trumpet is blown.. This may not be right and thermal-nuclear (as warfare) occurs at the blast of the 1st trumpet. But, it is imho, and i feel very strongly, that we are currently at Rev chapter 7, verse 4.
..now back to reading.. :gsmile:
Reading Molly's original posts of this thread has reminded me of Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue, which Molly also mentions.
The empires the statue represented, most historians agree, the gold, silver and bronze is Babylon, Media-PERSIA, and Greece.. The iron most believe is Rome, with towards the end, the ten toes (parallel in 'last' days to the ten kings of rev) are a blend of iron/western and clay/not western. (Daniel 2:24-44) [The Ottoman Empire, and the nations after it, being part of the clay. I believe all these others in latter days will be subdued by the iron type politics - senates, courts, architecture.. And that the Ottoman Empire was subdued/split into Saudi Arabia and Yemen by the modern iron/western organization of the League of Nations, forming much of the foundation of what is the Middle East today, and will be the Kings of the East (East of Jerusalem). And who will work closely with the 'last' days Roman/Greek world beast. (Rev 20:4b)]
The beast which Daniel later saw (7:7,19,20) is a cross-reference to the one at Rev 13:1 (ten horns). By this we find out that this beast has two of the metals of Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue, the iron and bronze. Rome and Greece (Roman/Graeco roots is how I learned it in school - the Greek/Roman as the foundations of western civilization; besides the Christian.)
Summary- Rev 13:1 - The big beast of Rev 13:1(-10) has "iron teeth" (iron columns) and "bronze claws" which it uses to "scatter/scrabble the residue" - the Greek based secularism of our day has changed and scattered/scrabbled western civilization (with its bronze claws).
This makes me think, there's a Roman/Greek foundation to the 'last' days world beast who will declare a treaty for a week, but the clay and the iron won't really mix.. it won't be real peace.. (won't endure, but wars and rumors of wars will flare up in the midst of, in challenging times until the last battle which takes place in the Middle East against Israel/Jerusalem.)
P.S - it's my belief Islam (revived Caliphate/Ottoman Empire) is working even now to infiltrate nations, and the world body, which will receive authority (called breath) in Rev chapter 13, when stepping into its prime seat, will be its original head, which did not sign on originally, thus the world body expired/ was not, but then was again. [The head being the u.s. and the two horned/seated office, which dreamed it up, and which is pinpointed by the office which released (a new) fire upon the earth (over Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 13:13)
..they will work together just fine, especially after shortage due to drought (rev 12:16+Lk 23:28-31-the dry leaf) as the world body is into population controls and the nations will marvel when they see the revived OTTOMAN beast in POWER in the world body.
:iagree: on mobile can't quote right/respond at the bottom :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2012, 07:38:20 AM
Could America become "Islamized" by 2016 with the immigration of 100 million Muslims? How and why could this happen? Could immigration policies be put into effect that would prevent this from happening?
"..the US is solidly behind the rise to power of the Sunni Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, and Syria." Why this is dangerous to the Christians in the middle east, to Israel, the US, and the Christian West. How it will lead to massive Moslem immigration to the US.
http://www.vicmord.com/Newsletter_July_2011.html
Turkey, the final seat of the Islamic Caliphate and Ottoman Empire, is Sunni. Saudi Arabia is Sunni.
Syria and Iran are currently Shi'a. Sunni rebels are fighting against the Shi'a government in Syria.
Sunni Moslem brotherhood has now taken over the countries of Egypt, Libya, and is in the process of trying to topple the Shi'a government of Syria. The US gov't is standing behind them. Why is the US gov't supporting Sunni over Shi'a?
"we are no longer a Christian Nation"
--Barack Hussein Soetoro-O'bama
"if you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world."
--BHS-O
Quote from: jabcat on July 22, 2012, 11:17:27 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 22, 2012, 10:57:43 AM
Israel is...finding themselves needing more than ever a Christian America to lean on which is no longer there.
That's really sad. And half of America and much of the world has little idea what's going on with that every day here in America.
"...we are going to fundamentally transform America". The crowd cheers.
VeRy sad is exactLY what I thought when I read that line, no longer Israel's much needed ally. "The crowd cheers"! :iagree:
Note: "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. He will send out His angels to gather His elect.." Mt 24
"The dead in Christ rise first.. so shall we meet the Lord in the air" 1 Thess 4
"I will raise them at the lasT day"
Zech 14:4 "His feet in that day will stand" (touch down?) "Upon mt Olives" (not mt Zion) from where He left, Acts 1:19? Mt Olives "just as u saw him come so shall u SEE him return"
Rev 20:5; 21:3 -Then begins the millenium. And 500 years aFter the millenium ends is the great age of Tabernacles (500 yrs if Israel's Fall holy days prophesy the 2nd advent like the Spring ones did the 1st.
Molly,
The Sunni, Shiite info was especially helpful! thanks! :hiya:
I know I'm way behind.. but I can't help myself! :rolllol:
that which restrains.. ppl think of as the Spirit of God, but perhaps it's the voice of ppl of God which is preventing.. and the falling away,hasn't man's adult fairy tale of evolution accomplished that? Many churches and christian universities have swallowed it and TEACH God's word as compromised? (And if one things untrue maybe it all is, and more and more are falling away). And western civilization falling away from being "christendom".. And the conservative voice, which we see the endeavor to silence and the taking away is the silencing of the conservative spirit or sentiment, which holds back?
And evolution as the false teaching/prophecy, which the belief of does 'prophecy' in the sense that man will spiritually once again look to the stars for answers, as it eventually implies et's (these et's being extra terrestials).
:blah: :hiya: I love a time of intense learning! reading Ezekiel 38 and Psalm 83 - #'s are opposite, easy to remember! I like that.. filling in some gaps.
Thanks Molly!
will I read all 76 pages of this thread? probly not :laughing7:
For those who are worried about the Muslims taking over the world, Albert Pike's 1871 letter to Guisseppe Mazzini shows that it is part of a larger plan (not God's Plan):
http://www.libertyforlife.com/nwo/albert_pike.htm
I have faith that God will foil the plans of the NWO.
..and even if it did, it only lasts "ten days" and there's LOTS more would need to fall in place, etc, and whatever occurs whether just in Israel or more, Jesus gave very clear signs (we're not "appointed to trouble/tribulation". (Did I read that quote here? Likely) And Jesus returns to cut it short, to rescue! (Israel from her long time enemies)
Quote from: marie glen on April 13, 2013, 06:25:30 AM
..and even if it did, it only lasts "ten days" and there's LOTS more would need to fall in place, etc, and whatever occurs whether just in Israel or more, Jesus gave very clear signs (we're not "appointed to trouble/tribulation". (Did I read that quote here? Likely) And Jesus returns to cut it short, to rescue! (Israel from her long time enemies)
We are not appointed to God's wrath. I think this refers to the vials of wrath which are poured out after the great Tribulation.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,--1 Thess 5:9
But, Jesus tells us to expect tribulation. He will return
after the tribulation of those days [Mat 24].
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." [Jn 16:33]
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace
:2c:
God protected Noah's household through the flood. He passed over the children of Israel when He shook Egypt and Pharoah with plagues. We are not appointed for wrath- we are appointed to be delivered and to overcome(woman to wilderness/manchild to wage war against the dragon and his seed).
We shall in no way precede those who have died in the Lord. The dead in Christ rise first, then we who remain alive will follow immediately after to meet the Lord in the air. In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. At the last trumpet. When the archangel shouts. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, at the second coming of Christ.
For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall rise and we shall be changed.
Ain nobody gettin out
We ALLLLL goin through
Better get up in that secret place
Time to watch and pray and dooooo
Lord
Do exploits
Shine like stars
An don you worry none lil child
Won't no evil thing come night thee
Won't no plague come in your house
You're covered underneath His mighty wings
We all goin through
No need to get out
We got the glory of the Lord before us
We got the glory of the Lord behind
We got a voice say, Turn right, Turn left
Don't pay that devil any mind
We got a war cry,
Here I am send me
We got the Holy Ghost and power
We got the full armor mighty through our God
We are the Light in the Final Hour
Ain nobody gettin out
We ALLLLL goin through
Better get up in that seccret place
Time to watch and pray and do......
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
"Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
Quote from: Molly on April 13, 2013, 07:16:42 PM
Quote from: marie glen on April 13, 2013, 06:25:30 AM
..and even if it did, it only lasts "ten days" and there's LOTS more would need to fall in place, etc, and whatever occurs whether just in Israel or more, Jesus gave very clear signs (we're not "appointed to trouble/tribulation". (Did I read that quote here? Likely) And Jesus returns to cut it short, to rescue! (Israel from her long time enemies)
We are not appointed to God's wrath. I think this refers to the vials of wrath which are poured out after the great Tribulation.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
--1 Thess 5:9
But, Jesus tells us to expect tribulation. He will return after the tribulation of those days [Mat 24].
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." [Jn 16:33]
amen, I think you're right..
Quote from: eaglesway on April 14, 2013, 11:03:23 PM
:2c:
God protected Noah's household through the flood. He passed over the children of Israel when He shook Egypt and Pharoah with plagues. We are not appointed for wrath- we are appointed to be delivered and to overcome(woman to wilderness/manchild to wage war against the dragon and his seed).
We shall in no way precede those who have died in the Lord. The dead in Christ rise first, then we who remain alive will follow immediately after to meet the Lord in the air. In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. At the last trumpet. When the archangel shouts. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, at the second coming of Christ.
For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall rise and we shall be changed.
"Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
:Chinscratch: do you have a verse which says the manchild fights with the dragon? thanks..
John 9:4- "it behoveth me to be working the works of Him who sent me while it is day; night doth come, when no one is able to work"
Isaiah 26:20- "Come, My people, enter into thy inner chambers, And shut thy doors behind thee, Hide thyself shortly a moment till the indignation pass over."
Is it the view not to warn folks what comes nor the signs?
Quote from: Molly on April 13, 2013, 07:16:42 PM
He will return after the tribulation of those days [Mat 24].
amen, it's obvious (& i find myself constantly posting but can't imagine how it is so widely missed) He returns after 'the tribulation"
Mt 24:28-31 - "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will SEE the Son of man on the clouds... will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds.."
"Trump" -"Trumpet" and "trumpets" are all from the Greek "salpigx" "last trump" "seven trumpets", etc..
.."in the world you will have tribulation".. amen, since the beginning there has been tribulation :hiya:
Does anyone know of a verse which says we shouldn't warn folks of what is prophesied, and we should tell folks, not to seek in any fashion to avoid it? :gsmile: thanks..
:2c:
How I see the man-child, through this entire age, and especially in the time of the end/consummation of the age)
Rev 12:7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.(Ezekiel 28:16, James 3:16, 2 Cor2:1-12, Acts 20:29,30)
10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;
11 and they did overcome him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life -- unto death; [the ascension of the saints(when they overcome, get 'seated' in the heavenlies, tru revival/restoration) causes the descension of the dragon, in any generation]
12 because of this be glad, ye heavens, and those in them who do tabernacle; wo to those inhabiting the land and the sea, because the Devil did go down unto you, having great wrath, having known that he hath little time.'
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast forth to the earth, he pursued the woman who did bring forth the male,
14 and there were given to the woman two wings of the great eagle, that she may fly to the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent;
15 and the serpent did cast forth after the woman, out of his mouth, water as a river, that he may cause her to be carried away by the river(Ephesians 4:14,James 3:15)
16 and the land did help the woman, and the land did open its mouth and did swallow up the river, that the dragon did cast forth out of his mouth;
17 and the dragon was angry against the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commands of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ(man-child).
Eph 2:6 and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus(man-child caught up to throne, mature disciples, overcmers),
7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus(to rule all nations),
Ephesians 4
11 and He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] proclaimers of good news, and some [as] shepherds and teachers,
12 unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,
13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ(man-child),
14 that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray(dragon),
15 and, being true in love, we may increase to Him [in] all things, who is the head -- the Christ;
James 3:13 Who [is] wise and intelligent among you? let him shew out of the good behaviour his works in meekness of wisdom,
14 and if bitter zeal ye have, and rivalry in your heart, glory not, nor lie against the truth;
15 this wisdom is not descending from above, but earthly, physical, demon-like(dragon),
16 for where zeal and rivalry [are], there is insurrection and every evil matter;
17 and the wisdom from above(throne), first, indeed, is pure, then peaceable, gentle, easily entreated, full of kindness and good fruits, uncontentious, and unhypocritical: --
18 and the fruit of the righteousness in peace is sown to those making peace(man-child).
Thank you, Eaglesway. What I'm gathering is you think the manchild is the mature children of God?
When I read - "the rest of her seed, those keeping the commands of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ(man-child)." - I thought you meant Jesus as the manchild, but then when I read "the fruit of the righteousness in peace is sown to those making peace(man-child)." - I figure you mean the manchild is the fully mature (in Christ) children of God
Am I 'hearing' what you're writing? or that is to say, as you're saying it? (thanks) :gsmile:
EW :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: marie glen on April 15, 2013, 01:32:28 AM
Thank you, Eaglesway. What I'm gathering is you think the manchild is the mature children of God?
When I read - "the rest of her seed, those keeping the commands of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ(man-child)." - I thought you meant Jesus as the manchild, but then when I read "the fruit of the righteousness in peace is sown to those making peace(man-child)." - I figure you mean the manchild is the fully mature (in Christ) children of God
Am I 'hearing' what you're writing? or that is to say, as you're saying it? (thanks) :gsmile:
:2c:
Yes, you are hearing my two cents worth :o).
As Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren brought up into glory- a company of mature disciples, as James put it, "a kind of first fruits from among His creatures", Jesus the firstborn from among the dead, the overcomers as the firstfruits, mature seeds of the new creation- a free will offering.
However, by mature I do not mean,"in Christ a long time". A seed that is ready to "fall into the ground and die" is a mature seed, even if it just manifested on the stalk. I speak of the "spirit of sonship" whereby we cry "Abba Father" as children of God who are one in the death of yielding our lives up to Christ, being submerged in His life(Rom 12:1-6)- "many who are last shall be first", sharing therefore the joy of being, "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms"- a man-child caught up to His throne to rule all nations.
"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
(Rev 21:7)
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
(Rev 2:11)
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'
(Rev 2:17)
'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father; and I will give him the morning star. 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
(Rev 2:26-29)
'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
(Rev 3:5)
'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
(Rev 3:11-13)
'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"
(Rev 3:19-22)
And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
(Rev 21:5-8)
All of these promises are the inheritance of the "saints in the light"- any who persevere in "knowing Him", and valuing Him above life and the pleasures of the world(lust of the flesh, pride of the eyes, pride of life, pleasures of the mind).
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
(Rom 8:12-30)
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
(Mat 20:1-16)
What I don't understand is .
If there is one Holy Spirit (IMO there IS only one Holy Spirit.)
Some one in let's say in the 1880s preaches to his generation that they had better
prepare them selves for the end of days.
What evidence would that person tie to scriptures to convince
those he was preaching to? That they were going to go through a tribulation ,
a tribulation unlike any other tribulation seen on earth.
Can we assume that it was not the Holy Spirit leading him.
After all his generation did not go through tribulation or did they?
Some one in let's say in the 1920s preaches to his generation that they had better
prepare them selves for the end of days.
What evidence would that person tie to scriptures to convince
those he was preaching to? That they were going to go through a tribulation ,
a tribulation unlike any other tribulation seen on earth.
Can we assume that it was not the Holy Spirit leading him.
After all his generation did not go through tribulation or did they?
Some one in let's say in the 1960s preaches to his generation that they had better
prepare them selves for the end of days.
What evidence would that person tie to scriptures to convince
those he was preaching to? That they were going to go through a tribulation ,
a tribulation unlike any other tribulation seen on earth.
Can we assume that it was not the Holy Spirit leading him.
After all his generation did not go through tribulation or did they?
Some one in let's say in the 2010s preaches to his generation that they had better
prepare them selves for the end of days.
What evidence would that person tie to scriptures to convince
those he was preaching to? That they were going to go through a tribulation ,
a tribulation unlike any other tribulation seen on earth.
Can we assume that it was not the Holy Spirit leading him.
After all his generation did not go through tribulation or did they?
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 15, 2013, 02:11:01 AM
EW :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are mature: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But
we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
(1Co 2:6-10)
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph 1:9-12)
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and
I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be mature, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(Php 3:7-15)
:gimmefive: :cloud9:
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(Rev 22:11-15)
Oh to be among the first fruits of life. Today, if I hear His voice, perhaps I will not harden my heart, and I will enter His rest. :o)
About "the woman"..
[..good thing believers don't have to agree on Bible prophecy in order to have conversation! (even affection one for another)] :gsmile:
Do you believe these are cross references to one another?
Rev 12:1 - A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman... being in labor to give birth..
Therefore the Lord Himself gives you a sign, behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel, which means, "God with us". [Isaiah 7:14]
---------------------------------
and this one also.. The Lord God then asked the woman, "What have you done?" ...I will put enmity between you (the serpent guise) and the woman, and between your seed and her-seed, He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." [Genesis 3:13-15]
Quote from: dajomaco on April 15, 2013, 06:59:41 PM
What I don't understand is .
If there is one Holy Spirit (IMO there IS only one Holy Spirit.)
Some one in let's say in the 1880s preaches to his generation that they had better
prepare them selves for the end of days.
What evidence would that person tie to scriptures to convince
After all his generation did not go through tribulation or did they?
That's a very interesting question.. I sort of think that collapse (which I've come to think of as apocalypse, even though the meaning of apocalypse is to unveil.. I think that's the meaning and purpose of collapse, to unveil) - I think apocalypse began even before Cain slew Abel.. Began the first instant anyone differed from what God almighty thinks, does, considers, etc. HE, being Perfect, to differ with Him in any teeny, tiny way, is to become im-perfect. (The opposite of God/Life)
Therefor it is always apocalypse (or that is, fading, and falling apart, the 2nd Law of Science)
And I'm not sure "the tribulation" always means that final time of tribulation. And if they are birth pangs, each one is worse than the ones before it.
:gsmile: :Chinscratch: If total collapse has not come to pass previously, should this lead us to believe it shall never occur? If we think we recognize a sword, so to speak (rev 20:4b) coming, and have prayed earnestly and sought God's face on the matter, should we try to communicate those signs of it to others.. whether in our own time or as a truth passed on to a following generation? Is there any reason why those interested in Bible prophecy shouldn't have a free flowing exchange of ideas concerning it? Perhaps (like with all things) everyone is right about some things, and everyone is also wrong about some things. Mightn't good conversation act like putting the pieces of a puzzle together? And if there is allegorical meaning, mightn't there also be literal meaning? Are they always mutually separate of one another? It's always one or the other, and never both? Isn't all of life a metaphor? Yet for some reason we are flesh and blood, and this drama of God is being written in flesh and blood. Isn't it?
Quote from: marie glen on April 15, 2013, 08:07:40 PM
About "the woman"..
[..good thing believers don't have to agree on Bible prophecy in order to have conversation! (even affection one for another)] :gsmile:
Do you believe these are cross references to one another?
Rev 12:1 - A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman... being in labor to give birth..
Therefore the Lord Himself gives you a sign, behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel, which means, "God with us". [Isaiah 7:14]
---------------------------------
and this one also.. The Lord God then asked the woman, "What have you done?" ...I will put enmity between you (the serpent guise) and the woman, and between your seed and her-seed, He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." [Genesis 3:13-15]
Yea, if we all agreed.....How would we grow and learn?
No. I don't think those first two scriptures refer to the same thing, except perhaps in the broadest sense of "principle".
I believe the first is the church, she is giving birth to a man-child, many sons unto glory. She is standing on the moon(law, Israel). She is clothed in the sun(presence of God indwelling, emenating from). IMO, Johns Revelation is the story of the Spirit and the Bride. Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the spirit is saying to the churches. It opens with Christ among the Lampstands holding the Stars in His hands(all leadership is upheld and lifted or lowered by Christ).....He will set up a Lampstand or remove it from its place). John's Revelation closes with the Bride descending from heaven, a new heavens and a new earth, and the Spirit and the Bride saying, COME ALL YE THAT THIRST, DRINK FREELY OF THE WATER OF LIFE.
This is our message. Our calling to the world around us, LOST/APOLLUMI in a dry land where no water is, dying of thirst, choked in dust(man's ways)..... COME, DRINK FREELY. This is the song of the Spirit and the Bride- A SPIRIT RECONCILING THE WHOLE CREATION TO GOD, For FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS TO WHOM BE THE GLORY FOREVER. YAAAAYYYYYYYY!
The second I believe is of Israel(Mary) and Christ- the seed of Abraham and the fulfillment of all the promises of God dwelling among men.
The third is man- her(Eve, natural mother) seed, bruised by the serpent(sin, deception, death) - then crushing the serpents head(man is lifted "higher than the angels"[Hebrews 1&2] through Christ)- New Jerusalem, supernatural mother- mother of the Firstfruits- eventually of all makind.
There is a priesthood coming out of the church/Bride that will eventually reconcile all men to God.
God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself. He has entrusted to us "THE WORD OF RECONCILIATION" and given us the "MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION" in the "SPIRIT OF RECONCILIATION".
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.
He that does not gather with me scatters.I always ask, "Today, are you a gatherer or a scatterer".
The flesh scatters, the spirit gathers.
The carnal mind scatters, the mind of Christ gathers.
The wisdom of God gathers, the wisdom of man scatters.
The wheat is gathered, the tares are burned(scatterred)
The branches that abide are gathered(into Christ the vine) The branches that dry up(do not stay in the Spirit of reconciliation/living water) are cut off and put in piles(debris) to be burned.
I believe all these parables are to believers.
"Now it is time for judgment to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem"
Notice Jesus sends His angels to gather "out of His kingdom" all that offend. This is to me parallel to, "But Lord, Lord- didnt we prophesy in your name and do many mighty works in your name"? Depart from me you lawless ones, INTO THE FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS, I never knew you(You did not let me Come In to you).
This is the fire of 1 Corinthians 3:15- saved but as through fire, suffering the loss of the reward.
BEHOLD I AM COMING QUICKLY AND MY REWARD IS WITH ME. I am He that tries the reins and the hearts. Nothing is hidden in darkness that will not be brought to light. Nothing is hidden from the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
We think the parables of separation and trying and fire and purging were written to sinners, but they were written(imo) to the "children of the kingdom"- NOT TO SHOW US HOW THE WORLD IS JUDGED- To show us how we are judged/discerned.
The word of God is quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword,(separating wheat and chaff) dividing asunder soul and spirit and making manifest the (hidden) thoughts and intentions of the heart. And nothing is hid from the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
"And His eyes were as flames of fire(for burning up the chaff) and His feet like burnished bronze( for treading out the grapes, outside the city)
Every man will be salted with fire.(ALL MANKIND) Every sacrifice(in Abel, then in CHRIST) will be SEASONED(aged matured) in salt(fire/light/ the divine nature/ the spirit of Jesus Christ).
As far as future and present....fulfilled view historical view regarding these things my view is.... YOU MUST FULFILL THESE IN THE PRESENT, to PARTAKE OF THEM IN THE FUTURE.
"Today if you hear His voice harden not your hearts, as they did in the wilderness and SAW MY WORKS(prevented from ENTERING THE INHERITANCE, promised land, Christ in you the hope of glory, MESSIAH MANIFESTING FROM WITHIN, many sons unto glory- overcomers) 40 YEARS. 40 days and nights of a flood to destroy the old kosmos and begin the new. 40 years in the wildernes until EVERY UNBELIEVING MEMBER PERISHES.
Laboring diligently to enter His rest- ceasing from our own works, walking i nworks prepared from the foundation of the world- our inheritance revealed IN THE EARTH- COMING DOWN FROM OUT OF HEAVEN.
:o) I do run on sometimes don't I? LOL
perhaps.. "running on" that is, said the pot to the kettle! :laughing7: but it simply serves to show zeal of the Lord and His Word in the heart!
Now I understand you have the view of the Book of Rev as fulfilled, as being about Jesus and His bride, a spiritual fulfillment. (A fulfillment I'm sure I likely would not disagree with.)
And I am viewing it as physical fulfillment as a narrative and drama about the world. I believe any thing false or built upon false can only crash, whether a small crash concerning smaller things, or calamity concerning things bigger or even the world of man, as a whole..
:gsmile:
:o)
Yea, I like to think it is the zeal and enjoyment of exploring the glorious mysteries of God in the word-most of the time anyway.
Let me say that altho I believe that the revelation of the Bride and her Sons is the PRIMARY purpose of John's revelation, it is not the only thing going on in there, of course- and
I see that as both historical and spiritually alive in evry generation "in the now/today of God", so that sages and prophets and disciples of generations past through the last 1900 years would see these same revelations of the discernment and judgment and glory of God revealed in the midst of His people that we would today, else why the injunction, "Blessed is he who keeps the words of this book" and "Do not seal up the vision for the time IS AT HAND".
Yet , at the same, I do believe that is all happening "in this world" and "in this age" so there is prophetic revelation about the history of this age as well.... and it all culminates at the end of the age, when that which we see through the glass darkly will become clear as crystal to us all.
Until then we can discuss and speculate about the historical future vision in John's apocalypse, and what they mean in todays physica,l historical, geopolitical world- but if we miss the revelation to the church in our generation- as believers, imo, we have failed at a fundamental level to understand it or even receive it according to its foremost purposes, "Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches" and, "The Spirit and the Bride say Come, all you thirsty ones, DRINK FREELY Of THE WATER OF LIFE!"
Quote from: marie glen on April 15, 2013, 08:35:26 PM
And if there is allegorical meaning, mightn't there also be literal meaning? Are they always mutually separate of one another? It's always one or the other, and never both? Isn't all of life a metaphor? Yet for some reason we are flesh and blood, and this drama of God is being written in flesh and blood. Isn't it?
Marie, I am reminded of what my best friend once said, "Life is not either/or, it is either & or." The message of the Bible is multi-layered, the literal and allegorical and metaphorical all intertwined and inseparable. The drama being played out here is for the whole creation to see and learn from, and as the Bard said, we are all actors in it.
Hi eaglesway... I've had quite a day enjoying your "run on's"... I don't consider myself a scholar... but, maybe a perpetual student and your "run ons" really bless me, challenge me, encourage me... I always print your "run on's" lest I miss some treasure... Thank you so much for taking the time to share with us.
OTOH, I "love" your pithy sayings... MEET, PRAY -- WAIT upon the Lord for the Spirit to teach, lead, multiply, edify. (quite a 3-step plan!!)
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 16, 2013, 02:20:57 AM
Quote from: marie glen on April 15, 2013, 08:35:26 PM
And if there is allegorical meaning, mightn't there also be literal meaning? Are they always mutually separate of one another? It's always one or the other, and never both? Isn't all of life a metaphor? Yet for some reason we are flesh and blood, and this drama of God is being written in flesh and blood. Isn't it?
Marie, I am reminded of what my best friend once said, "Life is not either/or, it is either & or." The message of the Bible is multi-layered, the literal and allegorical and metaphorical all intertwined and inseparable. The drama being played out here is for the whole creation to see and learn from, and as the Bard said, we are all actors in it.
Beautiful.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 16, 2013, 02:20:57 AM
Quote from: marie glen on April 15, 2013, 08:35:26 PM
And if there is allegorical meaning, mightn't there also be literal meaning? Are they always mutually separate of one another? It's always one or the other, and never both? Isn't all of life a metaphor? Yet for some reason we are flesh and blood, and this drama of God is being written in flesh and blood. Isn't it?
Marie, I am reminded of what my best friend once said, "Life is not either/or, it is either & or." The message of the Bible is multi-layered, the literal and allegorical and metaphorical all intertwined and inseparable. The drama being played out here is for the whole creation to see and learn from, and as the Bard said, we are all actors in it.
absolutely! :iagree:
Boston. Horrible. LIke a war zone. People don't realize how bad it is. Lots of amputee type injuries. Device was low and sent out a lot of shrapnel. People were shoulder to shoulder, packed in at the finish line. First device went off at finish line, so runners turned around and ran in the other direction, second device went off in their path. Diabolical. Families were there waiting for their runners. Children.
Pray for Boston.
Quote from: dajomaco on April 15, 2013, 06:59:41 PM
What I don't understand is .
If there is one Holy Spirit (IMO there IS only one Holy Spirit.)
Some one in let's say in the 1880s preaches to his generation that they had better
prepare them selves for the end of days.
What evidence would that person tie to scriptures to convince
those he was preaching to? That they were going to go through a tribulation ,
a tribulation unlike any other tribulation seen on earth.
Can we assume that it was not the Holy Spirit leading him.
After all his generation did not go through tribulation or did they?
Some one in let's say in the 1920s preaches to his generation that they had better
prepare them selves for the end of days.
What evidence would that person tie to scriptures to convince
those he was preaching to? That they were going to go through a tribulation ,
a tribulation unlike any other tribulation seen on earth.
Can we assume that it was not the Holy Spirit leading him.
After all his generation did not go through tribulation or did they?
Some one in let's say in the 1960s preaches to his generation that they had better
prepare them selves for the end of days.
What evidence would that person tie to scriptures to convince
those he was preaching to? That they were going to go through a tribulation ,
a tribulation unlike any other tribulation seen on earth.
Can we assume that it was not the Holy Spirit leading him.
After all his generation did not go through tribulation or did they?
Some one in let's say in the 2010s preaches to his generation that they had better
prepare them selves for the end of days.
What evidence would that person tie to scriptures to convince
those he was preaching to? That they were going to go through a tribulation ,
a tribulation unlike any other tribulation seen on earth.
Can we assume that it was not the Holy Spirit leading him.
After all his generation did not go through tribulation or did they?
Your wonder is understandable, but to answer your question, "What I don't understand is .
If there is one Holy Spirit (IMO there IS only one Holy Spirit.)"
Friend, no 'if', there IS only ONE Holy Spirit. The rest of your query is good. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on April 16, 2013, 09:19:54 AM
Boston. Horrible. LIke a war zone. People don't realize how bad it is. Lots of amputee type injuries. Device was low and sent out a lot of shrapnel. People were shoulder to shoulder, packed in at the finish line. First device went off at finish line, so runners turned around and ran in the other direction, second device went off in their path. Diabolical. Families were there waiting for their runners. Children.
Pray for Boston.
:((
"There will be bustles and hearings of bustles" Mt 24:6, "polemos" - "to bustle" (the verse from an old JW greek-english parallel NT)
From another site:
"9/11 Just happened to be running a practice for just such a scenario.
London tube. Just happened to be running a practice for just such a scenario.
Sandy Hook. Just happened to be running a practice for just such a scenario.
Madrid. Just happened to be running a practice for just such a scenario.
Boston. Just happened to have devices for just such a scenario.
Did I miss any?"
As usual, there is more (much more!) going on than meets the eye, or ear.
I could not find the scriptures that tell us to go out and warn people
that we are the last generation or that we are in the last days.
Aren't we already dead?
Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ. 9 For the entire fullness of God's nature dwells bodily[c] in Christ, 10 and you have been filled by Him, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 You were also circumcised in Him with a circumcision not done with hands, by putting off the body of flesh, in the circumcision of the Messiah.[d] 12 Having been buried with Him in baptism, you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses. 14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and disgraced them publicly; He triumphed over them by Him.[e]
"I still have many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 Everything the Father has is Mine. This is why I told you that He takes from what is Mine and will declare it to you.
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens,[a] the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,[c] 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! 6 Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens, 7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
Quote from: Molly on April 16, 2013, 09:19:54 AM
Boston. Horrible. LIke a war zone. People don't realize how bad it is. Lots of amputee type injuries. Device was low and sent out a lot of shrapnel. People were shoulder to shoulder, packed in at the finish line. First device went off at finish line, so runners turned around and ran in the other direction, second device went off in their path. Diabolical. Families were there waiting for their runners. Children.
Pray for Boston.
When I read a similar headline , I believe in Yahoo news, I thought immediately of you... I know you have such a burden for warning of the impending horror and prayed for you and for all of us...
Through all of these physical horrific events, I truly believe God has a message, a warning for each one of us... My question always is... Lord, what would you have me to do?
THE GOLIATHS IN OUR PATHWAYS (& THE "SMOKY DAY")
It's not always easy.. finding the Quietness.. but as we know, it is in "entering His rest" that the God filled life is fulfilled. Jesus said "the scriptures speak of Me". Jesus, is our rest. Not only does our faith "rest" in the "finished work of Jesus" (we are declared righteous and innocent, setting us free to grow in the Lord, He is the vine, we are the branches). But we rest - in Jesus Himself. "Let God do what seemeth Him good.." (Let God do..)
Reading about King David, while he was still just a shepherd, it says "the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon David.." (1 Sam 16:13)
It takes the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost of God) to bring about in our lives the spirit of being an overcomer. As the world heads more and more towards, well, where it is rushing toward, it will require this Spirit all the more so. It's the key to the treasure! And it's the key to overcoming, and to the fruit of the Spirit maturing within us and within our life.
It's also "in His rest" that we most easily hear the still, small voice of God Almighty speaking. ("Be still. And know I am God." Psalm 46:10) And this is the rest which God's people enjoy. And all of us, like the psalmist says, thirst for this stream, as the deer thirsts for running water. Sometimes there are Goliaths in our way. And it's in this Rest of God that we can defeat them and vanquish them from off our path.
Joel prophesied a dark and smoky day.. Keeping with the spirit that the scripture is both literal and metaphor - having a spiritual meaning that lasts always.. As the days mature, the clouds of darkness and deception will become (surely?) thicker and thicker. Believers of the day will need to abide, live, tabernacle (often) in God's Rest, not just for peace and joy, but for survival and perception. (Of course our goal is to always abide in that rest.)
It's the mighty sWord of the LORD which cuts through all things, all clouds, darkness, and the untruth they rest upon. And it's the Spirit of God Almighty which opens our eyes and seals our forehead (to go along with the seal of God on our heart, which cries "abba, Father!" 2 Corinthians 1:22, Galatians 4:6, Ephesians 1:13,14).
"Let God do what seemeth Him good". (1 Samuel 3:18)
Jesus tells us, "my yoke is easy, my burden is light". (Matthew 11:30)
"The works were finished from the foundation of the world.. Let us therefor be diligent to enter that rest.. for we have a great High Priest.. ..therefor come boldly to the throne of peace.." (from Hebrews 4:3,11,14,16)
..and enter His rest.. able to "wait upon God" for and concerning all things.. We are very blessed! :gsmile:
Quote from: Anna274When I read a similar headline , I believe in Yahoo news, I thought immediately of you... I know you have such a burden for warning of the impending horror and prayed for you and for all of us...
Through all of these physical horrific events, I truly believe God has a message, a warning for each one of us... My question always is... Lord, what would you have me to do?
Quote from: Marie GlennJoel prophesied a dark and smoky day.. Keeping with the spirit that the scripture is both literal and metaphor - having a spiritual meaning that lasts always.. As the days mature, the clouds of darkness and deception will become (surely?) thicker and thicker. Believers of the day will need to abide, live, tabernacle (often) in God's Rest, not just for peace and joy, but for survival and perception. (Of course our goal is to always abide in that rest.)
It's the mighty sWord of the LORD which cuts through all things, all clouds, darkness, and the untruth they rest upon. And it's the Spirit of God Almighty which opens our eyes and seals our forehead (to go along with the seal of God on our heart, which cries "abba, Father!" 2 Corinthians 1:22, Galatians 4:6, Ephesians 1:13,14).
Thank you so much for these words of encouragement. It's taken me awhile to right myself and stand in faith again. This event in Boston illustrated great evil and great good, something I think we will see more and more of in these end times. Evil because someone designed a device that would not just kill, but maim and torture. Good because so many things came together perfectly to mitigate the event. It happened at a place where there were doctors and nurses already set up in tents with medical supplies to treat runners in distress. They were on the scene immediately, placing tourniquets, giving intravenous fluids, doing CPR, and whatever was necessary to save lives. The police and public ran towards the disaster to help however they could. The five biggest hospitals in Boston were just changing shifts, and the day shift stayed as the night shift was coming in, so they had double trauma teams ready to go. The victims were close to all these hospitals and arrived in minutes. Everything conspired to save lives. They meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. The low loss of life is nothing short of a miracle. So here is a hymn, written by Martin Luther, that was given to me today, and that sums it up for me.
A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing;
our helper he amid the flood
of mortal ills prevaling.
For still our ancient foe
doth seek to work us woe;
his craft and power are great,
and armed with cruel hate,
on earth is not his equal.
2. Did we in our own strength confide,
our striving would be losing,
were not the right man on our side,
the man of God's own choosing.
Dost ask who that may be?
Christ Jesus, it is he;
Lord Sabaoth, his name,
from age to age the same,
and he must win the battle.
3. And though this world, with devils filled,
should threaten to undo us,
we will not fear, for God hath willed
his truth to triumph through us.
The Prince of Darkness grim,
we tremble not for him;
his rage we can endure,
for lo, his doom is sure;
one little word shall fell him.
4. God's word above all earthly powers,
no thanks to them, abideth;
the Spirit and the gifts are ours,
thru him who with us sideth.
Let goods and kindred go,
this mortal life also;
the body they may kill;
God's truth abideth still;
his kingdom is forever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADamVJaXZMg
For since He Himself was tested and has suffered, He is able to help those who are tested.
Thank God for those who dedicate their lives to easing the sufferings of others. :Pray:
Quote from: dajomaco on April 18, 2013, 03:59:43 AM
For since He Himself was tested and has suffered, He is able to help those who are tested.
Thank God for those who dedicate their lives to easing the sufferings of others. :Pray:
Yes indeed. "Blessed is that man, who when his master comes, finds him so doing." The true ark of safety. Let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Give alms in secret, He who sees in secret will reward you openly.
dajomaco, eaglesway, and especially Molly,
Amen! :HeartThrob: :gthumbsup:
Oh, no...
Over 100 injured, unknown number killed in Texas plant explosion
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/18/numerous-injuries-reported-in-large-explosion-at-texas-fertilizer-plant/#ixzz2QnB1H8q8
...now saying between 5 to 15 people killed and more than 160 injured in a massive explosion at a fertilizer plant about 20 miles north of Waco, Texas, late Wednesday... :Pray:
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/18/numerous-injuries-reported-in-large-explosion-at-texas-fertilizer-plant/#ixzz2QpFIpPPV
So, I"ve been up all night listening to a Boston police scanner. It started with the murder of an MIT campus police, then a wild car chase to Watertown, 4 miles away, with the suspects throwing grenades at police and returning fire. Then we found out that they were the Marathon bomber suspects. There was a huge shootout in this sleepy little town, Watertown, where nothing ever happens. Then one suspect was taken into custody and one, the white hat, escaped. They are still searching for the white hat. Nine towns plus the city of Boston are on lockdown--a form of martial law--which they are calling 'shelter in place.' Four hundred thousand people told to stay home behind locked doors. Businesses and schools closed, colleges closed, public transportation closed, --it's like it is in the middle of a blizzard. Officials very concerned about something in Boston even though the white hat is thought to be within a small perimeter in Watertown. This whole week has been the week from hell. Another policeman was wounded in the shootout last night and taken to hospital.
Oh, and..
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:12
hello, Molly,
..i've felt many things in my spirit since about november of this last year.. like the turning of a dial.. or the minute hand on a clock jumping forward..
i feel there's times when things escalate.. or run fast forward for a bit.. :dunno: :Chinscratch:
It REALLY got my attention in November 2008, when it seemed apparent there was a great delusion and spiritual blindness that in culmination, had finally settled over our country (and much of the world). It seemed to come to a point, and just suddenly became more obvious to me. :2c:
Been studying on fasting and prayers
When see all the madness and Chaos , I know the peace of God can rest on us too because of Jesus Christ
here I used the NLT but I dont always agree with the way its worded , but its simple at times can bring clarity 1 TIM 2
Instructions about Worship
2 I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people.
Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them.
2 Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity.
3 This is good and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.
5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.
6 He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.
7 And I have been chosen as a preacher and apostle to teach the Gentiles this message about faith and truth. I'm not exaggerating—just telling the truth.
8 In every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy
wow pray for everyone everywhere all over all the time , Daniel did , he was faithful that way , some folks dont have the sense to pray or what to pray for
If we can see Words as food for our spirit , words are life and death to those whom it effects
fasting can mean to hold the mouth shut ! wow refrain from words totally ?and just pray to God for the healing of nations ? I have been in a weird place not speaking on forums much , but suddenly as it left me to be silent
Now I find posting away ? I dont understand it really
but I want you all to know , I am convinced , there is not a soul on the face of the earth who does not need God in their lives showing His love mercy and grace
and this makes me wonder if us whom have so much from the Lord are failing to acknowledge to so many that are poor in spirit the Truth :dunno2:
I wonder why sometimes all the violence and hatred and darkness of mans ways , hurting innocent people for no reason that makes any sense at all , like the Boston bombings etc , we all agree in many ways and things that God is in control
and God is Love and loves us
it may be we wait on the Lord till time is no more , because time seems to be a thing known to man , but its the man of sin that thinks he is changing times and laws ?
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
this part baffles me still , but still I realize that in Daniel aslo King Neb after the Lord was done dealing with him after dwelling with beasts and than when it was over he realized its the LORD who sets up Kingdoms and kings and knows how to humble the prideful
Dan 2:21 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief .
IMO,This is because, whenever we are and wherever we are, as children of the day....TODAY, we cannot be caught like a thieI If our time is up and the DAY breaks upon us, we will rejoice as the veil is torn away and we behold the ancient of days. And we will not be caught like a thief if the Lord bring the DAY upon the kingdoms of this earth in the form of various shakings because WE ARE IN THE WORLD BUT NOT OF IT :o) We have an inheritance in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus and an unshakable kingdom by which we are anchored already, hidden in the secret place of Most High.
so true Bro John :thumbsup:
children of the Day are hidden in the most High :HeartThrob:
My friend from university was on lockdown in her home. They have 4 young children including a newborn. Their kids were scared to death. The man was found very close to their house... her husband was up the road when gunshots went off. (They had lifted the ban after having everyone on lockdown all day.) The police told him to get inside the nearest house but he ran all the way home to his wife and kids. She updated her facebook status all day. They were so scared, begging for prayer. What a day for them. Knowing that your house could potentially be blown up at any minute with your children inside. Thank God it's over.
Glad their ok. I'm afraid conditions are going to really deteriate quickly from now on....hang on to HIM, cuz things
are gonna shake.
Ask Him to wait til after August ok??? ;) (Really though!)
lomarah,
I'm very glad your friend and family are safe and all's well. :gsmile: and that no one else was harmed..
I was very interested in everyone's posts.. :gthumbsup:
Thanks Marie. I am glad too. :HeartThrob:
The lessons at the end of the age come in stark relief: good versus evil, and sometimes both wrapped in the same package. He was a quiet boy, studious, serious, and even winning a scholarship. Raised in this country for 10 of his 19 years, he knew what it meant to have every gift given to you. Yet, he paid us back with a five day reign of terror and unmitigated evil, bringing only one conclusion to my mind, without the faith of Christ it is impossible to please God, and the further you are away from Christ, the more impossible it becomes.
So, the pup and I head home, having fled a city shut down by terrorists, knowing the age will end the way it began, with one last message to mankind:
Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
--Mat 3:2
Was he only 19? Ohhh. :( (I don't keep up with the news.)
I thought about and prayed for him yesterday as I was praying for my friends. So young to be over run with such demons. I can imagine they torment him terribly for him to have done all of that. So sad.
As iniquity abounds, because love grows cold, chaos encroaches upon those who have slept though the transition- and only the secret place of the most high offers them refuge.
Indeed. Repent, for the kingdom heaven is at hand, and He is calling- Behold I stand at the door and knock.
and the Lord will judge a righteous judgement , looking into this young mans heart , who is naked before Him always
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 33:22 For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us.
Lam 3:59 O LORD, thou hast seen my wrong: judge thou my cause.
I do not know all the details as the media frenzy covers this , its everywhere
I do offer prayers to the innocent and the loss of those whom are suffering because of this
who have been wronged , no matter whom they be , God is righteous in all His ways
I love His merciful and just judgements on us all
Just watched this testimony. It's Misty Edwards, one that He has called Himself to testify to Him through song. AWESOME testimony from a young woman whom He has thoroughly prepared for this hour. Wow.
Molly I thought you would really like this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=YyQosexIFJU&NR=1
Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2013, 09:31:12 PM
Dire Straits - 17th of Tammuz to the 9th of Av
This year, 2013, It will be June 25 to July 16
The Three Weeks or Bein ha-Metzarim (Hebrew: בין המצרים, "Between the Straits" cf "In Dire Straits") is a period of mourning commemorating the destruction of the first and second Jewish Temples. The Three Weeks start on the seventeenth day of the Jewish month of Tammuz — the fast of Shiva Asar B'Tammuz — and end on the ninth day of the Jewish month of Av — the fast of Tisha B'Av, which occurs exactly three weeks later. Both of these fasts commemorate events surrounding the destruction of the Jewish Temples and the subsequent exile of the Jews from the land of Israel. According to conventional chronology, the destruction of the first Temple, by Nebuchadnezzar II, occurred in 586 BCE, and the second, by the Romans, in 70 CE.
Time of danger
The Three Weeks are historically a time of misfortune, since many tragedies and calamities befell the Jewish people at this time. These tragedies include: the breaking of the Tablets of the Law by Moses, when he saw the people worshipping the golden calf; the burning of a Sefer Torah by Apostomus during the Second Temple era; the destruction of both Temples on Tisha B'Av; the expulsion of the Jews from Spain on Tisha B'Av 1492; and the outbreak of World War I on Tisha B'Av 1914, which overturned many Jewish communities.
--Wikipedia
"In traditional Judaism the time period between the 17th of Tammuz and the 9th of Av is called 'bein ha Metzarim' which is translated between the narrow places or dire straits. It comes from Lamentations 1:3: 'Amidst affliction and harsh labor,
Judah has gone into exile. She dwells among the nations; she finds no resting place. All who pursue her have overtaken her IN THE MIDST OF HER DISTRESS.'
"This phrase IN THE MIDST OF HER DISTRESS can also be translated "between the straits or narrow places." It is traditionally a 3-week mourning period in Judaism commemorating the breaching of the walls of Jerusalem on the 17th of Tammuz and the destruction of the Temple on the 9th of Av. It is a time of mourning with no weddings occurring during this season along with other mourning traditions.
---Chuck Pierce
"Between the narrow places"
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
--Mat 7
"Narrow" [is the way]
G2346
θλίβω
thlibō
thlee'-bo
Akin to the base of G5147; to crowd (literally or figuratively): - afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble.
Narrow is the way--it's describing the birth canal, and birth is being given through a sense of crowding, pressure, tribulation, trouble.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.--Mat 24
It's the same word:
[great] "tribulation"
G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
Pressure, Crowding--
Its describing a birth, as the birth pangs come closer and closer together,
the baby is entering the birth canal.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
--Mat 24
March 20, 2013: Entering Jerusalem the same day as Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUx4wKyvV94
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
---Mat 24
Mat 24:27 Describes the birth which will happen on the Feast of Trumpets
Dear friends, we are already God's children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. --1 John 3:2
To review, the narrow way, the great tribulation, is the birth canal of the sons of God.
They said to him, "Thus says Hezekiah, 'This day is a day of distress, of rebuke, and of disgrace; children have come to the point of birth, and there is no strength to bring them forth.
--Isa 37:3
Isaiah 33:2 LORD, be gracious to us; we long for you. Be our strength every morning, our salvation in time of distress.
Isaiah 66:9
Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. "Do I close up the womb when I bring to delivery?" says your God.Two Temples have been destroyed, but the dire straits is a 3 week period of mourning. What is the third Temple?
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."--Jn 2:19
Quote from: lomarah on April 22, 2013, 08:15:47 AM
Just watched this testimony. It's Misty Edwards, one that He has called Himself to testify to Him through song. AWESOME testimony from a young woman whom He has thoroughly prepared for this hour. Wow.
Molly I thought you would really like this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=YyQosexIFJU&NR=1
I did really enjoy that, Lo. Thank you. :HeartThrob:
Sermon on the Mount
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gty18oYPcW8
Re: Isaiah 33:2 Lord, be gracious to us; we long for you. Be our strength every morning, our salvation in time of distress.
Oh Molly, I am so grateful that God has placed you on this forum... He has used your "watchman" posts in a very special way to urge me to search the Scriptures for what I should be doing during these horrible dark days...
Earlier this morning I read Daily Overcoming Devotional (Ray Prinzing) for April 22
A POSITIVE NOW
based on Isaiah 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted, now will I lift up Myself.
===========
When I checked TMforum for recent posts I was so blessed by your post and then when I saw the Scripture Isaiah 33:2, I knew that I would be spending most of the morning reading, studying, meditating, praying ... Isaiah 33... Blessings ... as you continue to do what the Lord has called you to do.
A world without God... :sigh:
STRESSED & DEPRESSED
Americans 'snapping' by the millions
Exclusive: David Kupelian reveals record fear, stress, suicide – and inspired way out
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/americans-snapping-by-the-millions/#JefkxgSLkRAhPVw5.99
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
--Jn 14:1
He says, "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth." Psa 46:10
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Tim 1:17
I see I will be reading Isaiah 33 this evening! (I'm coming up to the prophets in my reading soon, which is good, because I'm never all that happy to be reading the history.. of David.. etc. as a matter of fact, I'm considering this being the last time I read through the history from Judges to end of 2 Chronicles; I haven't read through the prophets for a few years..)
tho i was caught up in the study of the bk of revelation..
and found myself thinking the other day, after the events in Boston, of a quick summary of the 'landmarks' of latter day events (in hopes and faith they be recognized when they occur and bring someone to faith?)
(seems to me there's a great(er) deception coming, greater than what we've seen of it thus far (which i consider man's theory of origins w/o God, jes sayin')
..for innocents to get swept up into it, for most, will mean to drink it down to its final dregs..
the more informed, we, his own are, as to the landmarks along the way, the more opportunity to peacefully plant seeds of awareness of it..(?)
In many opinions a large percentage of the Bible is given to warnings pertaining to 'end' time events (when man's [God-less] world comes crashing down around his ears).
The last and most imminent signs of course, our Lord's words
"when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and,
"when you see the desolating abomination 'set-up' (spoken of by Daniel the prophet)"
But before then
1 - the pause put upon thermal-nuclear warfare will end; rev 7:1, this will be, imo, the breaking of the 7th seal, followed by a shorter pause while the 7 trumpeters line up
2 - a world renowned peace treaty/accord/league made for one week of years by a strengthened (given breath) world body (Daniel 9:27 & Rev 13:3,4 original head of the world body)
3 - the treaty is 1st broken with Israel (Daniel 12:11) when their "daily sacrifice is taken away" Cross-Reference, MT 24:1,2 - Jesus said, "see all these things?" (the temple complex) "not ONE stone will be left one atop another" - When they take away the place in Israel where daily prayers, etc are made..?
4 - three Hebrew? years and 7 months after #3, will be 'set-up' the abomination of desolation - Daniel 12:11
5 - "Happy the one who makes it to the 45 days later" - Daniel 12:12
:girlheart:
Psalm 91
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
The Lord Is My Fortress
91 Live under the protection
of God Most High
and stay in the shadow
of God All-Powerful.
2 Then you will say to the Lord,
"You are my fortress,
my place of safety;
you are my God,
and I trust you."
3 The Lord will keep you safe
from secret traps
and deadly diseases.
4 He will spread his wings
over you
and keep you secure.
His faithfulness is like
a shield or a city wall.
5 You won't need to worry
about dangers at night
or arrows during the day.
6 And you won't fear diseases
that strike in the dark
or sudden disaster at noon.
7 You will not be harmed,
though thousands fall
all around you.
8 And with your own eyes
you will see
the punishment
of the wicked.
9 The Lord Most High
is your fortress.
Run to him for safety,
10 and no terrible disasters
will strike you
or your home.
11 God will command his angels
to protect you
wherever you go.
12 They will carry you
in their arms,
and you won't hurt your feet
on the stones.
13 You will overpower
the strongest lions
and the most deadly snakes.
14 The Lord says,
"If you love me
and truly know who I am,
I will rescue you
and keep you safe.
15 When you are in trouble,
call out to me.
I will answer and be there
to protect and honor you.
16 You will live a long life
and see my saving power."
Psalm 46
New King James Version (NKJV)
God the Refuge of His People and Conqueror of the Nations
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of the sons of Korah. A Song for Alamoth.
46 God is our refuge and strength,
A very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore we will not fear,
Even though the earth be removed,
And though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
3 Though its waters roar and be troubled,
Though the mountains shake with its swelling. Selah
4 There is a river whose streams shall make glad the city of God,
The holy place of the tabernacle of the Most High.
5 God is in the midst of her, she shall not be moved;
God shall help her, just at the break of dawn.
6 The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved;
He uttered His voice, the earth melted.
7 The Lord of hosts is with us;
The God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah
8 Come, behold the works of the Lord,
Who has made desolations in the earth.
9 He makes wars cease to the end of the earth;
He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two;
He burns the chariot in the fire.
10 Be still, and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth!
11 The Lord of hosts is with us;
The God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah
jes some favorite verses :gsmile:
Thanks Marie for posting these two Psalms ...
Psalm 91 took on a whole NEW meaning as I watched replays of the bombing of the twin towers on 9/11...
Ps 91:1
v 1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
v 2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress (tower): my God; in Him will I trust.
Despite months of discussions, Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti has surprised the Vatican by announcing an end to tax breaks previously enjoyed by the Roman Catholic Church.
This move could bring in up to an estimated one billion euros to help with Italy's budget deficit.
After telling the European Commission but not the Church, the decision appeared in an announcement on the government's website.
It was welcome news for some political parties who have been campaigning for the Vatican's tax exemptions to end.
"The worst tornado in the history of the world." CNN
Reporters are in tears.
Pray for Oklahoma.
Muslim rioting in Stockholm past 3 days..began with man weilding machete saying he waaaaaaas going to kill police officer.
today. London area..machete attack against officer...alleh akkbaaar' two shot.
:hiya: ..being mostly a spiritual hermit, studying only the Bible and not from men, I'm not sure what others think when it comes to Bible prophecy.. not sure what's meant by the "historic view"..
But I do know there's lots of cross references between the prophets and the Book of Rev.. and the Bk of Rev was written in 90a.d. (approx) so could not be prophesying 70a.d.
If we carefully read the 6th SEAL, rev 6:12 and on.. knowing the seals progress/gallop, and are described here so veRy early on in the narrative, as a blend of 2 things, what they are when they begin + what they are when they end, aka, when they are fuLLY matured. (Providing a lock on the vision for many days.)
It then becomes quite obvious that SEAL 6 is the Opening of atomic warfare. After which is a pause of it (7:1). That is where we are. Right there, in that pause of SEAL 6 (smack dab at 7:1).
When the pause of it is broken, that is when the 7th SEAL is Opened, and is followed by another pause, tho not as long. (While the 7 TRUMPETers line up...)
the 6th SEAL perfectly aligns with 13:13 showing an office the notorious 66 and 6 guy at least at one time, sits in. :gsmile: :2c:
Molly, I agree with your assertion on the anti-Christ being the "Mahdi" and Islam being the conquering hordes who are bent on world domination. Who beheads their victims? People are generally afraid of them now. The caliphate is being built as we speak.
I have been reading books by Walid Shoebat and Joel Richardson just recently and they are very convincing. A british soldier (off duty) in London was butchered by two Muslims using knives and meat cleavers and shouting "Alahu Akbar"
link below
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22634468
Jock
I see Ishmael..as a typology of the man of sin/carnal......his hand against every man......though all men bear the image
after a fashion of the 'corrupt one ' first. a wild-ass of a man..his hand shall be against every man...thus the division
the scattering to the four corners of the heavens and earth...through religion politics and race[a house divided against
itself can not stand] the promises do not come through this natural lineage
Zechariah 14;13 the unique day........each man will seize the hand of another and they will attack each other/surely a mark
in the hand..of a beastly carnal divisive nature.
the promised seed is not like that...all are one in Christ..neither greek nor jew..male nor female..gathered into one new man
in Christ...that spiritual stone that strikes the feet of the image of the carnal...is the new creature...of which all shall
be gathered into one..in Christ
Jock and Molly,
..and as we 'speak' (lol) they are infiltrating nations aNd the world body known as the un..
the dove, or rather, the donkey (politics) will partner with the crow/vulture !!!
Yep, and it's interesting to note that all places, towns, countries mentioned in the Bible, are Islamic, apart from Israel.
Recommend "God's war on terror" by Walid Shoebat.
Jock
Oh yes! Love that guy! am going to watch on youtube "God's war on terror" today.. I think I've seen part of it.. I'm thinking of ordering the book..
Marie, here is another way to look at the sixth seal:
http://www.johnhorrigan.com/darkday.html
It's a fairly long essay, but worthwhile, if in fact the events in New England in 1780 were in fulfillment of prophecy.
For the falling stars, we have this:
http://www.patmospapers.com/ndex/stars.htm
As to the rest of the opening of the sixth seal, I just don't know...
hi Lazarus.. I'll confess I'm pretty convinced when it comes to the 6th seal, because when you read it, it speaks of people going into the holes and caves, and I'm old enough to remember "bomb shelters" and when I read it, it screamed at me, "bomb shelters!"
But someone will never see it if they don't realize, by re reading it, that the seals are described as an intertwining, a blend, of what it is when first Opened/broken (aka, the scroll opened further by the seal being broken) and the other intertwined cord is what it is in its fully progressed (galloped) form at the 'end'. These two cords, or threads, (its beginning and its end) are intertwined, and are not in a list or in order, but are blended together or twined.
Both Isaiah and Hosea speak of men hiding in the caves and holes.. cover us..
It was a dark day in 1945 over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.. and in the final conflagration (fullness of the 6th seal) "the earth will rock to and fro" - from earth it is bound to look like the stars are falling.. (much more so than meteor showers or halebob)
After the new element of the age is released by the opening of the 6th seal, there is a pause, lest any wind harm earth or trees.. the new wind is paused.. which is exactly what we see, and is exactly where we are.. when this new element/fire/wind is re-released (limited) within it are the 7 trumpets.. aka, within atomic warfare is the 7 trumpets; and within the final (big) use of it, will be the 7 bowls (He comes with fire and with angels - which after the tribulation of those days.. he will send out to gather his elect.)
Look at the other seals - (without what we've been told about them) - the years of our Lord a.d. is the latter age.. one comes out riding a white horse, conquering and to conquer.. "Christ was openly victorious over principalities and powers" - those olde 'gods' (of Canaan, moon god of human sacrifice, etc)
the 2nd seal, still man's constant companion.. war - "he is given a great sword" - "a long sword" other versions say..
the 3rd seal.. always rides with war, shortage, imbalance
the 4th seal, a pale sickly horse (greenish) and (hades?) follows after him.. the grave! follows after him, including the mass grave, we have already seen some of.. 4th apocalyptic element of this latter age of man, pestilence including chemical (warfare) which the mass grave follows after it.
5th seal, the blood of christian martydom cries out to God even as the blood of Abel did -
6th seal - a wind so strong it eventually causes the earth to rock to and fro in a great earthquake and the fires of it are reflected by the moon.. (red moon)
then.. a pause. Verse 7:1, no wind to harm earth or tree.. the (new, fiery) wind is paused..
It's hard for me to understand how it's so hidden..
Also rev 13;13 - a man/office brings fire to earth in the sight of men.. from the sky is as it appears to men, especially those it fell upon.. this convinces mankind/the nations, to rebuild the image of the beast (a world body/panel) - what sort of fire from the sky are we waiting for? from a wand? it doesn't say anything about a wand. It says brings fire from the sky to earth in the sight of men.
Most of mainstream Christianity doesn't believe the u.s. is in Bible prophecy. What?! And thermal nuclear warfare capability and occurrence, not there either? capitalism and socialism? islam? all missing? Nope. All there.
socialism will devour, and raze with fire, capitalism
a strong islamic leader will make war with the strongest of nations (when he sits in the sec gen seat? once having been in the 13:13 office?) - he will not honor women (gen 3:15, always against woman)
=============================
here's my other points I find it hard to believe ppl cannot see...
(gen 3:15, always against woman) but woman birthed Christ whom Herod tried to devour, but He was lifted up to the right hand of God.. so the adversary pursued the woman (70a.d) to europe mostly, then there was war in heaven and the adversary is then restricted from the heavens, so in great rage again persecuted (inquisitioned) the woman; but she's given the two wings of an EAGLE so she CAN fly (SAIL) to a new place from the FACE of the adversary for 3.5 MODERN divisions of time.. 1620 -> 1970 then the serpent (guise) vomited-water / a flood (proliferation) of filth/indecency in order to wash her away.. make her fall away.. But the earth will open its mouth and swallow the flood (drought as prophesied by Jesus in Luke 23:28-31, and of course, Joel) - and then the nations are gathered to war, surround Israel, who by now, has the testimony of Jesus...
= for Jesus said "you (Jerusalem) shall not see me again until you say blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" -- REv 16:14,15,16 - #14-kings gather for Armegeddon; #15-blessed the one keeping his garments handy/on, for I come quickly; #16-and to armegeddon the armies are gathered.
"And the Lord ALONE will be exalted in that day."
Sorry to carry on so! [but WHY is the irs being ARMED?? what office is pinpointed by rev 13:13? And WHO is actively and persistently infiltrating the world body?? to what end?/purpose? why do so many in our own nation declare Islam is a religion of peace, and Christianity of bigotry,etc? even our own president, why?? because we deserve it? NO. The purpose is Rev 20:4b]
One more ? - what gives breath/authority to the world beast/body ((rev 13:1-10 is a world 'beast' as opposed to 11-18, a man, or more precisely, an office, which brought fire from the sky to earth)) Answer: it's the man/office of 11-18! the HEAD, which did not originally sign on, even tho it was dreamed up by one in this office, thus was the head.. so it expired.. Then was born anew after the fire from the sky to the earth in the sight of men. [The Islamic madhi is prophesied to bring 7 years of peace.. Daniel says it's a covenant/treaty/"league" of one week of years.]
Christendom is waiting for a magical pope who with his wand will bring a puff of fire and mesmerize the world. - The world is already mesmerized!!! both by the $iTy harlot(ry) and especially by the rest i've been babbling about/against.. :hiya:
It seems to me that if we read the word literally we would understand that the sixth seal was opened around two thousand years ago in a vision given to John upon the isle of Patmos. The sealed book that was held in the hand of the one who sits on the throne contained revelations, prophesies to be understood in several ways on several levels like "wheels within wheels". Within the section of the book contained within the sixth seal, is a vision of the great Day of God that all men wake up into- the heavens are "rolled up like a scroll" and "every eye shall see Him even those who pierced Him" and no one is able to stand. "Yet once more I will shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains".
The stars of heaven are shaken to the earth as "untimely figs", prematurely cast down by a mighty wind--- have you ever seen this? Unripened fruit laying about beneath a tree, food for the earth because of a wind blowing them off their purchase?
Rev 2:1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance,........but I have this against you, you have left your first love.
This is speaking of the judgment of God, His "trying of the reigns and the hearts IN THE DAY- "For now the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem" - the stars are held in His hand are the apostles/messengers/presbyteries of the "gatherings of called out ones"(see I Cor 3 1:11-18)
1Co 3:11-15 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, (13) each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. (14) If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. (15) If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
"Those who lead the many to righteousness will shine like stars in the heavens"(Dan)...But if they are weighed in the balance and found wanting they are shaken off by the wind to "Fall like unripe figs" in the Day of the Lord.
"For the day of the Lord comes like a thief"- to those who walk in darkness,or those who sleep in the light. The Lord "Comes Quickly/Suddenly(Malachi 3:1-6, Rev 22:15) and the veil is rent and the heavens are "rolled back like a scroll". "The Day shall not take you as a thief for you are children of the light, walking in the Day"- for those who watch, and listen, and walk "in the Day" the veil is already rent- he that believes in me though he die yet shall he live." "Everyone who believes in me has passed from death into life." Therefore watch and pray for the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak and you know not the day or the hour. Walk in the light as He is in the light."
AWAKE O SLEEPER and arise from the dead and the LIGHT OF CHRIST WILL SHINE ON YOU.
Gen 1:5-8 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven.
Col 1:12-13 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Each seal is opened the words "Come and see". For instance, in brief, the fifth seal reveals that the age will be fulfilled when the harvest of "many sons unto glory" is complete. If we suffer with Him then we will also reign with Him. It is a revelation of one of God's purposes in this age- He is gathering sons.
The sealed book, imo, is the book that was sealed at the end of Daniels revelation "Seal up the testimony for the time is afar off." Dan 12:4
At the end of John's revelation the words are, "Seal not the scroll because the time is AT HAND"Rev 22:10. The seals were all already broken at that point, the scroll remains "open" to all who have ears to "hear what the Spirit is saying to the called out ones".
"Come and see". It has never been sealed since and indeed cannot be sealed because the Lamb broke the seals and they will never again be sealed.
As the following verses explain, it is only sealed "to us" because we "cannot hear"- but the poor in spirit can, "hear what the Spirit is saying" because the "sword of His mouth" has separated the wheat from the chaff and His "eyes of firey flames" have thoroughly purged His threshing floor.
Isa 29:10-24 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep(awake o sleeper), and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered(blinded/veiled). And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed(This cannot be understood yet excuse): And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned(I am not smart/educated enough excuse). Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men(real reason we can't understand): Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? (I am he that tries the reins and the hearts) Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness(Come and See). The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought. Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. But when he sees his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel. They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
In the gathering of the called out ones all that is hidden is brought to light(lake of fire, maybe? :o)(1 Cor 2:1-16, Heb 12 entire)
As it is written in Hebrews,
Heb 10:37-39 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY(Behold I come quickly). BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction(the potter crushes the marred vessel in order to remake it), but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul(finished vessels fired and set upon the mantel).
"In a little while", "In that Day", "these are biblical code words for both stage level and overall universal fulfillments of the promises of God. Behold I am coming quickly. Come Quickly Lord Jesus.
We are all longing for the day that has dawned to be fulfilled and indeed the whole creation groans with us, eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God, through whom the creation will be set free from futility into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
Rev 5:7-14 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen."
So, if we read everything absolutely literally/historically the book is not unsealed until "Every created thing in heaven and on earth and under the earth and all things give glory to the Lamb", just look at it and see it there. But we of course cannot- it is the apocalypse(revelation) of John given for those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the called out ones. What is that?
Come and See :o) Come drink freely of the water of life :o) Let everyone who thirsts, Come :o) Let everyone who has ears to hear, Hear- BEHOLD I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW- BEHOLD, I AM COMING QUICKLY :o)
These are just my own opinions given for the purpose of perspective, not intended for debate as such. Peace.
Hi John....my post is in regard to 'in a little while" referred to in your post. As I had a dream vision 3 mornings ago.....
of standing with a few people..and a baby was there,when a giant waave of water rose up. I said 'give me the baby"
and held him as the wave crashed down on us. Then I was standing ,with others,with the child in my arms..and a voice said
"and in a little while" it will be alright.
I did some looking into the scriptures about Jesus telling them..you will not see me..and in a little while you will see me again
...as He underwent His cross .
I also see the wall of water about to crash down as floodwaters of the dragon..sent to wash the woman away....and it will
not. For He will establish her in the earth [temporal camp then permanent...the Holy city He loves.............
I welcome any insight from all of you in regard to this dream/vision..... a multitude of counselors there is wisdom..
new insight..just now. A final assault of the lower waters against the Higher waters.[manchild/throne].in the camp of the Holy city
that will not overcome....
Sheila, I don't know what it means, but I had a similar dream a few months ago. It was actually two-fold. First I saw myself in a very tall building with multiple floors and I knew it was going to collapse. I said to God, ok, but please don't make it hurt too much. In the same night, I had a dream that I was standing on a beach just staring at the wall of water approaching. I knew it was going to crash down on all of us standing there. I braced myself and said Ok. The dream disturbed me at the time. Like I said, I don't know what it means. It could mean I need to stop watching the news. That is enough to give anyone nightmares.
By the way, did anyone catch this on the news: The Pope announces he believes all people have been "redeemed" by Christ. I saw this on the Fox News ticker. They also added, "not all Christians agree with him." Did anyone else catch this?
Deena - thanks so much for sharing the news about Pope Francis's statement re: all redeemed by Christ... I just spend a few minutes reading various news sites, which I would not have done without your calling this news to our attention. I am truly encouraged not because suddenly all Catholics will have to believe that all are redeemed, but because I've been praying for some kind of opening for me to begin a serious discussion on Jesus Christ Savior of all men with my very, very Catholic family and other relatives... I have many, many cousins with whom I do have a rather friendly relationship... I'm in the process of composing my annual good newsletter to family and friends... so much to discuss with them and now I have an opening given by the pope... oh my...
Sheila, I have been praying about your request re: your dream vision... so far it seems that I won't be any help... except, of course, to pray that you will be given a clear insight...
ty guys...and yes,I had caught that...about Francis. Glad Father has opened a door for you in the catholic faith..OT
and Deena...it was definetly a Holy spirit dream..right upon wakening...they have a different 'something' about them
from your run of the mill dreams.
I'm glad the info was useful. I hesitated because I wasn't quite sure it was true (about the Pope)--glad to know it is! What an interesting development, and something hopeful in this gloom and doom world.
Quote from: sheila on May 23, 2013, 11:36:22 PM
Hi John....my post is in regard to 'in a little while" referred to in your post. As I had a dream vision 3 mornings ago.....
of standing with a few people..and a baby was there,when a giant waave of water rose up. I said 'give me the baby"
and held him as the wave crashed down on us. Then I was standing ,with others,with the child in my arms..and a voice said
"and in a little while" it will be alright.
I did some looking into the scriptures about Jesus telling them..you will not see me..and in a little while you will see me again
...as He underwent His cross .
I also see the wall of water about to crash down as floodwaters of the dragon..sent to wash the woman away....and it will
not. For He will establish her in the earth [temporal camp then permanent...the Holy city He loves.............
I welcome any insight from all of you in regard to this dream/vision..... a multitude of counselors there is wisdom..
To me, Shiela, the dream would mean flood waters of global affairs which the Church (plural) is like a babe in their understanding.. so some will be caught unawares and suffer things the Spirit of God meant to warn of.. a few days they could have avoided.. but, nevermind.. or even so.. all 'ends' well in the end of course.. and global affairs when all untruth will fall (as it only can do, fall and fail of course "in the day the towers fall" so if they knew the signs they would "come out.." and avoid the plague of great hail John saw in his vision/debris).. but of course the flood of destruction is actually short lived, and God/all truth remains standing and wins all in the 'end' which is only the 'end' of men's kingdoms and all which is false and untrue..
very good,Marie...that makes a lot of sense. thank you.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 23, 2013, 09:08:22 PM
These are just my own opinions given for the purpose of perspective, not intended for debate as such. Peace.
Amen! I see no reason why sons and daughters of God cannot have friendly dialog, even touching on topics they see differently.. As you may have surmised I believe the scroll which is unrolled as seal by seal is broken, is a vision.. revealed at the beginning/opening of the new age of Christ (years of our Lord a.d. if you will) by He who "sees the end from the beginning" of all things, also does here (of course, lol!) when the age of Christendom began.. how it would fall away by a flood of indecency and also by the false prophecy/teacher/teaching, which began as a man (darwin).. and geesh! there I go again! :ghaha: :girlheart:
:ty: Sheila :)
In a little while, to me, means in the resurrection. It will all come out in the wash :o) so to speak. We look for earthly fulfillments, and they have come and more will, but in the end it will be at the consummation of the age that we will see all these things resolved and our tears wiped away. Sheila, when the waters came up- you went for the baby. I think the dream is a revelation of your heart as much as anything else.
In a little while, to me, means all this length of suffering we endure in His name will seem only a blink of time when we are free from this earthly tent, standing in the "great assembly", celebrating the victory of the Lamb.(Rev 5:13)
:o)
Marie, I agree, it is wonderful when we, as mature disciples of Crist, can share our differing views in a spirit of fellowship and "midrash". If anyone is wise they are always listening for truth in the words of their brethren- refining their own understanding and open to adjustment.
Many of the things that we call differences are only because we are focusing on an facet of a larger jewel and both perspectives will be incorporated in the whole counsel of God when we finally get the perspective we need. "Come up here" :o) He says to us all. Seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus where all spiritual blessings abide.
I like to think we are trying to help one another see, as opposed to "seeing first" or "seeing best".
Peace.
ty so much for the insight,John. as the wave crashed..there was a few secounds at most of loss of consciousness..or blackness
then,as I said, I was standing there with other's,and the baby was in my arms...and avoice said 'and in a little while,it
will be alright"
deep calls to deep,in the roar of your waaterfalls all your waves and breakers have swept over me.
Psalms 42..seems to apply too.
Yet in a little while He who is coming will come and will not delay, but my righteous one will live by faith, but if he shrink back my soul will have no pleasure in him- but we are not of those who shrink back unto perdition, but of those who perservere to the preserving of the soul.
Yet once more will I shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains.
I think the blackness represents a period of of not understanding or perhaps being overwhelmed. Often when waves come we assume they are for us but often they are so that when the water recedes only we will be left standing and the presently infantile purpose of God left standing in our arms.
For instance- what if a worldwide wav of persectution reduced the institutional churches to state run images that speak as if alive but are really dead/666. Doesnt this just make room for the true gospel to flourish?
Sometimes I think we confuse what is happening as being from Satan when really it is God purging and trying and wooing a pure gold offering out of the fire.
"It is I who creates the smith that blows the coals".
I think we often get anxious and panicky at changes we see in the world when we ought to be on the roof rejoicing. What have we to lose? Have we really counted all as loss? How else shall we find ourselves embedded in His purpose and plan?
When the blackness clears the baby is in your arms- the purpose of God sustained and safe, nurtured in the arms of its mother(our mother is the Jerusalem from above who is free)
Among other things perhaps an encouragement to trust your instincts and hold fast when the water gets deep :o)
Quote from: OneThing on May 24, 2013, 07:29:37 PM
Re: focusing on a facet of a larger jewel...all perspectives will be incorporated in the whole counsel of God when we get the perspective we need. Come up here
eaglesway, as I was reading your very gracious and loving reply to both Sheila and Marie, I couldn't help but reflect on our tenants getting ready for our annual Memorial Day Potluck... and comparing TM Forum to a Huge Potluck. Each of us brings our favorite dish and we all end up getting to taste, to enjoy a variety of flavors, textures, etc., as well as exchanging recipes, etc., come and dine :)...
I continue to be grateful for the variety of "flavors", "textures", "recipes" etc. that I enjoy at the Huge Potluck aka Tentmaker Forum. I feel like a permanent guest with posting rights as I stay awhile, leave awhile, come back awhile. May God's peace, grace, joy, life, love in abundance be ever present in all members, guests...
What a gracious and wise post, and a blessing! :smile: :gthumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 24, 2013, 07:36:36 PM
Yet in a little while He who is coming will come and will not delay, but my righteous one will live by faith, but if he shrink back my soul will have no pleasure in him- but we are not of those who shrink back unto perdition, but of those who perservere to the preserving of the soul.
Yet once more will I shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains.
I think the blackness represents a period of of not understanding or perhaps being overwhelmed. Often when waves come we assume they are for us but often they are so that when the water recedes only we will be left standing and the presently infantile purpose of God left standing in our arms.
For instance- what if a worldwide wav of persectution reduced the institutional churches to state run images that speak as if alive but are really dead/666. Doesnt this just make room for the true gospel to flourish?
Sometimes I think we confuse what is happening as being from Satan when really it is God purging and trying and wooing a pure gold offering out of the fire.
"It is I who creates the smith that blows the coals".
I think we often get anxious and panicky at changes we see in the world when we ought to be on the roof rejoicing. What have we to lose? Have we really counted all as loss? How else shall we find ourselves embedded in His purpose and plan?
When the blackness clears the baby is in your arms- the purpose of God sustained and safe, nurtured in the arms of its mother(our mother is the Jerusalem from above who is free)
Among other things perhaps an encouragement to trust your instincts and hold fast when the water gets deep :o)
amen..
Psalm 46:1,2 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - "To the Overseer. -- By sons of Korah. `For the Virgins.' -- A song. God [is] to us a refuge and strength, (KJV) Therefore we will not fear, Even (if) the earth be removed, And even (if) the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea." :smile:
& another instance or word of any unveiling or judgment, being of God, His will, purpose and Spirit, is:
Revelation 17:16,17 "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose,
to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled." (note: this to my mind, of course, rofL, or the mind God has given me, seems to refer to government/socialism will (finally) consume capitalism (and all empire) which lacks God. Strong's "harlot=pornos,to sell" she seduces and mesmerizes the nations/7continents w/her enchantments,has a gold cup of side effects, the kings are in bed with her, and she made the merchants of earth wealthy by her sorceries/spells cast, and her forehead, babble(all untruth,imho) is responsible for all slain upon earth..rev chapters17&18:)
Lovely , just so precious everyone
truly the Lord is awaking us to a bright morning
I agree its love that edifies , and the knowledge puffs up [ voices as many waters swell up] and the many waters from above , wow ! everyone is blessed , was not going to say a word today
But I cannot help but Praise the Lord for this gloroius day in Him :dsunny:
wow, beautiful posts!! ty :HeartThrob:
Did someone say potluck? :gimmefive:
Quote from: sheila on May 23, 2013, 11:42:10 PM
new insight..just now. A final assault of the lower waters against the Higher waters.[manchild/throne].in the camp of the Holy city
that will not overcome....
Sheila just now I was putting my son down for a nap and had just fallen asleep for a second while laying beside him. I had a very quick dream and it was you with the baby and the waves. What I got was that you are being used as a "mother" figure to love and protect the Christ child within many of His children against the floodwaters of the evil one. (Including in a very large way the Christ in me!) :HeartThrob:
(Must be why He made 'em so big in your vision... :winkgrin: )
ty Lo! 1 Timothy 5;2....maakes sense also.........and this....call the younger women to their senses..to continue loving their
husbands...etc.
Iv'e been so blessed by the spiritual gifts in you all.....ty :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on May 29, 2013, 02:24:29 AM
ty Lo! 1 Timothy 5;2....maakes sense also.........and this....call the younger women to their senses..to continue loving their
husbands...etc.
Iv'e been so blessed by the spiritual gifts in you all.....ty :HeartThrob:
:hiya: hi, Sheila,
I thought of you and your dream this morning when in my morning reading was a verse about how "the Euphrates" symbolizing the enemy, Assyria (in this instance) would "flood and overflow its banks"... This was Isaiah 8:7 (5-10)
Babylon is the internet?
Maybe Babylon is materialism in our buy-now-pay-later economic system, in the setting of our world-wide system of corrupt banking and politics. :eek:
:2c: :2c: (inflation)
city babble-on(and on!) is the one the kings/politicians are in bed with.. is the one who seduces all nations (7 continents/hills) with her enchantments..
"harlot" the greek word is "pornos" and "to sell".
city babylon is the one who made the merchants wealthy by her sorceries.. the spell she weaves which seduces the nations..
the one who has a "golden" cup of side effects (immoralities? perversions? abortions? sex slave trade? downfall of family and society) - "her crimes reach to heaven"/she shakes her fist at God?
the merchants weep over her when no one any longer buys the long list of their products, luxuries, perfumes, cloths, etc, etc, and the bodies and souls of men (male & female)
she is responsible (or her forehead/psyche) is responsible for aLL slain on earth. (Babble, all untruth?)
No millers wheel will be heard in her again.. in one hour her judgment comes (crashes?) in one day she falls..
she rides on the final (world) beast (body) (the kings are in bed w/ her) but the beast and its final days of man and gentile rule's "10 kings"/divisions of final days, will "devour her" and "raze her with fire" - socialism will (finally) consume capitalism - "per God's will"
These descriptions of course are in rev chapters 17 and 18
------------------
Jesus said "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you shall (not) see me again until you say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" - Immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will see Son of man coming on the clouds.. will send out His angels with the trumpet blast to gather His elect from all corners/directions of the world" (mt 24"29-31) "so shall we meet the Lord, the dead in Christ 1st" 1 thes 4:
"His feet will touch down upon Mt of Olives.." Zech 14;4
He will "pour out His Spirit on all flesh.." Joel 2?
"the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow" Is 11:7
all who are left (on the earth).."the people's will stream to Jerusalem to be taught of the Lord" Is ?:?
have a good weekend... :hiya:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 01, 2013, 07:29:03 PM
Maybe Babylon is materialism in our buy-now-pay-later economic system, in the setting of our world-wide system of corrupt banking and politics. :eek:
:2c: :2c: (inflation)
:iagree:
the economic system which is going
global(7 continents/hills) whose advertisements use harlotry (the greek="pornos") and enchants & seduces the nations; the kings of the earth (politicians) are in bed with her ("fornicating") [her forehead/psyche (babble/all untruth) is responsible for aLL slain on earth]
she rides the final beast (world beast/body/politics) they ride together.. but! the ten divisions (horns, toes, kings) will devour her! and burn her with fire! why? because it is socialism finally consuming capitalism - babylon the great is fallen, fallen! crashes.
and also the future "cannot
buy or sell" of Rev 13:18
the spirit of harlotry (greek="pornos") is also the flood/proliferation of rev 12:15 poured out after christianity trying to wash it away (trace 2 migrations! of rev 12! and eagle's wings!) the earth/drought will swallow the flood, see Luke 23:28-31!
jes sayin' :hiya: :2c: :2c: (today I looked up in Strong's "perdition" for man of perdition, one rendering was "waste" I thought that to be ironic, considering that 70's book "rules for radicals")
I had a vision last night. I awoke to find my room completely filled with nightshades or some such evil spirits. They were all clothed in black smoky rag-robes and they were all screaming and yelling and casting a spirit of fear upon me.
I searched within myself and from my experiences in the past I looked at them angrily and I said, "Jesus is my Lord". They slowed down a little but were still surrounding me in a really quite scary image like a black fog with many faces and many voices.
I mustered some zeal up from the well within and I shouted, "JESUS!" and they drew back and became almost silent.
I looked at them again as I sat up in my bed and I shouted again, "JESUS!" and they all exploded like puffs of smoke but they lingered in the air and slowly began to change and I wondered why they were not leaving and began to muster more faith to rebuke them again. Thats when I saw them begin to change into hundreds of beautiful plants, vines, floral shapes like hanging baskets in a dense forested garden. I marveled at this for several minutes.
Finally, seeing that there was nothing to fear I lay down and went back to sleep.
When I awoke in the morning, as I walked to my subway stop, the thought came into my mind, "All the bogey men of your life. Your failures, your personal demons, your enemies and persecutors are only the stuff that will make you what I have called you to be. These things, that have caused you anger and fear and pain, I have overcome in you. They will become the garden of your being, the WHO of who you are, the fruitful vines from which you will share Me with others."
I took great encouragement from this. I hope it is encouraging to some of my friends on Tentmaker :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 05, 2013, 08:22:52 PM
I had a vision last night. I awoke to find my room completely filled with nightshades or some such evil spirits. They were all clothed in black smoky rag-robes and they were all screaming and yelling and casting a spirit of fear upon me.
I searched within myself and from my experiences in the past I looked at them angrily and I said, "Jesus is my Lord". They slowed down a little but were still surrounding me in a really quite scary image like a black fog with many faces and many voices.
I mustered some zeal up from the well within and I shouted, "JESUS!" and they drew back and became almost silent.
I looked at them again as I sat up in my bed and I shouted again, "JESUS!" and they all exploded like puffs of smoke but they lingered in the air and slowly began to change and I wondered why they were not leaving and began to muster more faith to rebuke them again. Thats when I saw them begin to change into hundreds of beautiful plants, vines, floral shapes like hanging baskets in a dense forested garden. I marveled at this for several minutes.
Finally, seeing that there was nothing to fear I lay down and went back to sleep.
When I awoke in the morning, as I walked to my subway stop, the thought came into my mind, "All the bogey men of your life. Your failures, your personal demons, your enemies and persecutors are only the stuff that will make you what I have called you to be. These things, that have caused you anger and fear and pain, I have overcome in you. They will become the garden of your being, the WHO of who you are, the fruitful vines from which you will share Me with others."
I took great encouragement from this. I hope it is encouraging to some of my friends on Tentmaker :o)
:thumbsup:
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
:HeartThrob: John
Interesting, Eaglesway.
I have prophetic dreams now and then. They usually closely parallel something that later takes place in the church, my life, or the life of someone close to me. I usually recognize them by their symbolic nature and vividness. Sometimes I don't know how I know, but I just wake knowing that they are prophetic. I noticed you said you had a vision, which in my definition is different from a dream. I have only had one vision in my life that I know of, and it was a flash vision (lasting only a second or so) that occurred during prayer when my eyes were closed. It was vivid, and I knew it was prophetic.
Recently, I dreamed I was at a church function and my son said, "Come here." I followed him outside and into the edge of the woods, where he had uncovered the hidden entrance to an excavation in a eight-foot bank in the earth. It was full of musical equipment and merchandise. He suggestion it was a stolen stash from a store in town. He then led me into a church building where we were searching for more stashes of stolen stuff. Then he went into a bathroom and had a bad nosebleed that filled the toilet with bright red blood. I wanted to leave for fear that the thieves would return with more stolen things to stash, and catch us there. I believe this dream was prophetic, because it contained several items that were symbolic, but I haven't been given the meaning yet.
ty for sharing that with us brother. It reminds me of the parable teaching of the dunging of the tree......
unpleasant objectionable things that surround us and cause us to grow up stretching towards
the heavens..to leaf out and produce good fruit.
JB I had a few thoughts come to me on your dream/vision. I see the church[christendom/and or
the body of beleivers being pillaged by robbers and theives] finding what was stolen and where they
had stashed them..is realizing we have been robbed of great spiritual treasures..also the store in town
with stolen goods can rep merchants or those that merchandise the word of God resulting also in this
same robbing and pillaging..and hiding true treasures and supplies of 'goods' in God nd Christ to man.
the nose has to do with the discerning of spirits..and the twisting of it brings forth blood.[nosebleed]
thus your son discerning the twisting of the true spirit of God by the robber and theive spirits..resulting
in the provisions of life of God and the spirit 'going into the toilet'.......
the fear of wanting to get out of there before they came back may be your desire to avoid a
confrontation with them[the theives and robbers]
Quote from: sheila on June 05, 2013, 09:18:46 PM
JB I had a few thoughts come to me on your dream/vision. I see the church[christendom/and or
the body of beleivers being pillaged by robbers and theives] finding what was stolen and where they
had stashed them..is realizing we have been robbed of great spiritual treasures..also the store in town
with stolen goods can rep merchants or those that merchandise the word of God resulting also in this
same robbing and pillaging..and hiding true treasures and supplies of 'goods' in God nd Christ to man.
the nose has to do with the discerning of spirits..and the twisting of it brings forth blood.[nosebleed]
thus your son discerning the twisting of the true spirit of God by the robber and theive spirits..resulting
in the provisions of life of God and the spirit 'going into the toilet'.......
the fear of wanting to get out of there before they came back may be your desire to avoid a
confrontation with them[the theives and robbers]
Very interesting. Thanks Sheila. :thumbsup:
took great encouragement from this. I hope it is encouraging to some of my friends on Tentmaker
YOUR HOPE has been BLESSED
Brother John,rereading this thread this morning brought to my mind something similiar to your disturbing dream/vision
14-15 years ago...there was a giant picture on the wall....that fell into 1000's of peices down the wall..into pile on the floor
....the thought come to my mind..'an evil spirit has caused this" and I focused my anger against the evil entity behind this.
when I did this....the 1000's of peices come back togather and the big picture..assembled into one beautiful painting.
a picture paints a 1000 words...and so,too, the understanding of God's divine plan for His creation is divided into
confusion by the spirit of babylon.
the anger...as an impulse against evil is of the spirit...thus we have God's judgement against Babylon 'for the way she
treated you"[cause His little ones to stumble] This takes God's wrath and applies it where it is directed..against the
spirit of babylon..not the children deceived or confused of her...the call,come out of her,my people.
I inserted this hear,due to the fear/ anger evil parallel in both .
Quote from: sheila on June 06, 2013, 07:49:12 PM
Brother John,rereading this thread this morning brought to my mind something similiar to your disturbing dream/vision
14-15 years ago...there was a giant picture on the wall....that fell into 1000's of peices down the wall..into pile on the floor
....the thought come to my mind..'an evil spirit has caused this" and I focused my anger against the evil entity behind this.
when I did this....the 1000's of peices come back togather and the big picture..assembled into one beautiful painting.
a picture paints a 1000 words...and so,too, the understanding of God's divine plan for His creation is divided into
confusion by the spirit of babylon.
the anger...as an impulse against evil is of the spirit...thus we have God's judgement against Babylon 'for the way she
treated you"[cause His little ones to stumble] This takes God's wrath and applies it where it is directed..against the
spirit of babylon..not the children deceived or confused of her...the call,come out of her,my people.
I inserted this hear,due to the fear/ anger evil parallel in both .
Was this an actual event? or a dream/vision?
hey...it was a sealing up of instruction in a vision in the night....not a literal/material thing that occurred...although there
are literal parallels in the earth that show forth this truth. People that dwell in haunted houses[cage of unclean birds/
Babylon] oftentimes exhibit strange manifestations such as things falling off the walls etc.
But what it reveals spiritually is the spirit of Babylon in beleivers..teaching them lies....of which they caan not live by
[mark of beast[scarlet] on which she sits and rules over.
Quote from: sheila on June 06, 2013, 10:50:00 PM
hey...it was a sealing up of instruction in a vision in the night....not a literal/material thing that occurred...although there
are literal parallels in the earth that show forth this truth. People that dwell in haunted houses[cage of unclean birds/
Babylon] oftentimes exhibit strange manifestations such as things falling off the walls etc.
But what it reveals spiritually is the spirit of Babylon in beleivers..teaching them lies....of which they caan not live by
[mark of beast[scarlet] on which she sits and rules over.
:thumbsup:
So true. I have learned to watch everything that goes on around me. Not that I'm paranoid, but rather watchful and inquisitive. I watch "coincidences," and I pay attention to my dreams, and notice unusual occurrences around me. Sometimes I suddenly feel like God is ready to speak to me, and I just focus on him. Please don't anybody think that I am superstitious - that is NOT what I am describing here. I believe God speaks to us in many ways. I also believe that most people don't notice when they see God do something, but it never occurs to them that God was involved (Like when your delayed - there may have been a major accident you would have been involved in). :2c:
:thumbsup:JBB
God is constantly speaking to us in sooooo many ways, you are not superstitious.
Today if you hear My voice :o)
IMO, The rapture will happen at the 7th trumpet. As we are leaving, the wrath of God will be coming down on the earth. I believe Marie has been saying the same thing. Now look at what Jesus said:
26 "When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah's day. 27 In those days, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 "And the world will be as it was in the days of Lot. People went about their daily business—eating and drinking, buying and selling, farming and building— 29 until the morning Lot left Sodom. Then fire and burning sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
--Luke 17
IMO, What he is saying here is that the world will not see it coming. It also sounds like although the tribulation is happening, there are places where things are normal.
Things were going on as usual in Sodom until the angels came for Lot and he and his family left, then Sodom was destroyed.
The same in the days of Noah. Everyone was oblivious and going about their daily lives until Noah entered the Ark, and then the flood came.
IMO, we will also be removed because we are not appointed to wrath.
The 7th trumpet will be at the end of the tribulation. So this is a post-trib rapture.
The tribulation is not the wrath of God. It is the time of Jacob's trouble.
The wrath of God immediately follows the tribulation and the rapture.
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. Rev 16:1
yes,it is my understanding that God will remove His lot[all mankind bought with His son's blood] off the earth and vent His wrath on the evil spirits
left behind.
though you pass through the water and the fire. Egypt red sea..were Egyptions represented the pharoah of this world that hold His people
in slavery to sin. Let my people go...with heart hardened for destruction..
temple vessels were cleansed through water and fire.[purified] Man's body is temple....for my spirit will not contend with man forever,in that
he is but flesh. Father has a limit and set time,to do His work,His strange work.
yes,it is my understanding that God will remove His lot[all mankind bought with His son's blood] off the earth and vent His wrath on the evil spirits
left behind.
I know that this sounds like the script to a sci fi movie.
But it is not impossible for man now to create a vessel using DNA
We know that the demons can posses all manner of creatures.
As in the days of Noah the demons corrupted man and creatures.
What is interesting to me about Luke 17 is that Jesus is saying here that somewhere in the world the tribulation will look like normal days. People will be carrying on their normal everyday activities, buying and selling, getting married, and so forth.
Of course, we keep getting a new normal, so who knows what will look normal at that time.
At the time of Noah, only 8 people were saved.
At the time of Sodom, it was even worse, only 3 people saved, Lot and his two daughters.
Sheila, I don't believe at the end of this age all humanity will be saved. I believe it will follow the pattern of Noah and Sodom. Only those in Christ, living and dead, will be saved at the end of this Age.
Although I suspect there may be some in Christ who just don't know it yet, who will also be saved. Anyone who calls on the Name of the LORD will be saved. [somewhere, book of Joel].
Also, I think some will enter the millennium with glorified bodies and I suspect some will enter with mortal bodies, although they might be very long lived.
That would mean immortals and mortals will be living on the earth at the same time.
I guess my point is that those watching for some huge change preceding the return of Christ might miss it. The Tribulation might not look like what many expect it to look like.
Right now there are hard times for many and that may increase, yet the majority might just be living along marrying and giving in marriage, as normal.
Interesting also he mentions marriage, which is a big topic these days.
26 "When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah's day. 27 In those days, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came and destroyed them all. Lk 17
Gospel singer who says God delivered him from homosexuality asked to not sing at a MLK celebration in the nation's capital.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/11/ex-gay-gospel-singer-removed-from-mlk-concert/?test=latestnews
Quote from: jabcat on August 12, 2013, 03:59:34 AM
Gospel singer who says God delivered him from homosexuality asked to not sing at a MLK celebration in the nation's capital.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/11/ex-gay-gospel-singer-removed-from-mlk-concert/?test=latestnews
They probably sent him hate mail or threatening letters to stop him attending a memorial of a great hero. The cowards responsible should be held accountable.
Quote from: Molly on June 24, 2013, 09:19:15 PM
What is interesting to me about Luke 17 is that Jesus is saying here that somewhere in the world the tribulation will look like normal days. People will be carrying on their normal everyday activities, buying and selling, getting married, and so forth.
Of course, we keep getting a new normal, so who knows what will look normal at that time.
At the time of Noah, only 8 people were saved.
At the time of Sodom, it was even worse, only 3 people saved, Lot and his two daughters.
Sheila, I don't believe at the end of this age all humanity will be saved. I believe it will follow the pattern of Noah and Sodom. Only those in Christ, living and dead, will be saved at the end of this Age.
Although I suspect there may be some in Christ who just don't know it yet, who will also be saved. Anyone who calls on the Name of the LORD will be saved. [somewhere, book of Joel].
Also, I think some will enter the millennium with glorified bodies and I suspect some will enter with mortal bodies, although they might be very long lived.
That would mean immortals and mortals will be living on the earth at the same time.
I guess my point is that those watching for some huge change preceding the return of Christ might miss it. The Tribulation might not look like what many expect it to look like.
Right now there are hard times for many and that may increase, yet the majority might just be living along marrying and giving in marriage, as normal.
Interesting also he mentions marriage, which is a big topic these days.
26 "When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah's day. 27 In those days, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came and destroyed them all. Lk 17
:iagree: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
(those who believe saved from wrath.. but (not from tribulation/persecution) "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will see the Son of man coming on the clouds.. and He will send out His angels to gather His elect.." Mt 24:(38-41?)
-- "He comes with angels
and with fire" 2 thes (1:7?)
...so you don't misunderstand where I'm coming from..........the wrath that comes on those who
are not changed in a twinkling of an eye...is the destruction of their flesh....for the destruction
of the old man of sin...opens the way for the new man to be raised in Christ..
the rod striking the clay vessel[so that dust returns to dust] releases the spirit that it may return
to the Father......others changed in the twinkling of an eye[all shall not die].........
I beleive this is parrelled in the passover...where Pharoah's firstborn was slain....Pharoah's
firstborn being the natural carnal man...and blood on the doorpost with lamb/light in the
houses of Israel..being sspiritual Issrael.........releaed from servitude to the prince of this world
and deliverance into the promises of God...the Promised land being...immortality/incorruption
the image man bears of the corrupt and the incorrupt..vessels of wrath fitted for destruction
=outer man that perishes[in all of us] those that are in that state will have an iron rod that
shatters that vessel.
the death of sinful flesh[bruising of heel]putting to death the wicked deeds of the corrupted flesh
crushes[obliterates] releases the hold of evil on mans spirit...that he may return unto the Faather....
and be clothed in Christ.[spirit return unto God who gave it]
the spirit of man can be likened to the cmp of the Holy city God loves[inner man] surrounded of the
wicked[wheat blade in the midst of tares] the outer man that perishes.[sown in the midst of
corruption/spirit begins ruling in the midst of it's enemies[your own household/body in which
you dwell]..a table in the presence of your enemies[sin in your flesh]
a tower fell and many were crushed ofit...Jesus said...think ye not that these were worse sinners
then any others..the same will happen to any who do not repent........
anyway you cut it..our outer man must die[perish] so that the inner man may inherit the kingdom
[who shall deliver me from this body undergoing this death]
sodm gomorrah/the flood...shows that most men will undergo wrathful judgement of their flesh
that the outer man perish and their spirits return unto God...and very few will not....the few
that will not..have what remains of the spirit aactive in them[remnant/elect] and will not undergo
death[days cut short or no flesh saved/delivered ]and these are changed in a twinkling......
Righteous Lot...tormented of the filthy ways of those who surrounded him...........Noah
righteous in the midst of a wicked generation....symbols of the inner spiritual man being preserved
while corrupt/wicked outer man destroyed. Further evidenced when judgement come upon
Jerusalem...those in Christ[regenerated spirit man] delivered from wrathful judgement of corrupt
outer man...that come upon Jerusalem.
now less any of you think the wrath of God is directed against any man...you must know
that God allowed satan to overcome man[turn over to sataan] those who would not heed His
counsel direction..to teach them not to blaspheme...to bring about the destruction of their flesh
so that their spirit may be saved[return unto the Father]
but in the end and consumation...the end of ALL flesh...He makes a quick work of judgmeent
[earth stored up for fire] and when we behold the great reaping[falling to the earth and die]
of maany men...we must realize their spirits of these return to the Father in heaven and will
bear much spiritual fruit in heaven........for their natural carnaal man perishes as the chaff
sown as a natural body....but their inner spirit man is raised up in the image of Christ.....
for they are like the man possessed of legion....found in their right mind through
Christ and the free gift...when He takes away all their sin all their cause of stumbling..when
their ears hear what they had not heard...........
at present[satan is wrathful=thus demonic madness filling the earth] and God's wrath is turned
away from man and against our oppressors[evil princes in high places]
sos Before I realized it,my desire set me among the royal chariots of my people...horses
and chariots of fire/spirit of Israel......and He goes forth to deliver............He shall remove
all men/life off this planet in a great deliverance...and the wicked[demons/satan] shall only have
a heap of rubble. Then He shall set fire to the heavens/earth in a great conflagration.....that
we call LOF...that consumes wood hay stubble and evil sspirits..and dead human bodies are
consumed as fithy rags[chaff] for this earth/heavens will have fulfilled it's purpose for the
sore travail of evil that all men were exercized in...and the spirits of just men made perfect
shall have their education completed by God[God himself finish their training]
the spirit of man is like.....like these good figs[it is good] I regard as good the exiles
whom I sent away[sowed in this earth] from this place to the land of the Babylonians[land of
Shinar[sin captivity] My eyes will watch over them for good[good news to all men]
AND I WILL BRING THEM BACK[return unto my Father and Yours] to this land. I will build
them up[tear down this temple and I shall raise it] I will give them a heart to know me
they will be my people and I will be their God for they will return to me[spirit returns to God]
But like the poor figs which are so bad they can not be eaten[evil spirits] I will make them
abhorrent,where-ever I banish them.
Quote from: sheila on November 07, 2013, 04:29:41 PM
I beleive this is parrelled in the passover...where Pharoah's firstborn was slain....Pharoah's
firstborn being the natural carnal man...and blood on the doorpost with lamb/light in the
I searched quite a while but no longer can find the article; I've read ancient Hebrew women often gave birth in a crouched position holding the doorposts. Most houses where single room so there were no internal doors.
As said I can't find the supporting article but IF true it may have some relevance.
:thumbsup: interesting.......
Scripture contains all the prophecy I need.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html
And the Spirit of LOVE and ALL TRUTH contains all the prophesy I need. Removes the need for understanding :girlheart:
Love Julie
...ye search the scriptures,cause in them ye think ye have eternal life,but me ye reject, yet
the scriptures testify of me. You say I am rich,I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing..
but you do not realize ye are wretched,pitiful,poor blind and naked. HERE I AM! I STAND AT
THE DOOR AND KNOCK,if anyone hears my voice and opens the door,I will come in and eat
with him,and he with me.
just saying...self satisfaction does not foment any growth in the spirit.
Quote from: sheila on November 07, 2013, 07:27:11 PM
just saying...self satisfaction does not foment any growth in the spirit.
Amen!!!! :HeartThrob:
Psa 115:11 Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
Luk 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."
Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
hi all.. i think we are all the same.. the first resurrection and the 2nd resurrection.. all is going according to plan (of course) and the only reason there's the two 'classes', I think, is because you need more than one character in a convincing drama.
I think the spirit that returns to God at death is the breath (Sheila) but I agree with I think all the rest of what you posted..
I think the drama is what works to crucify the flesh.. we are all destroyed.. and then, in the election is the repentance.
I think it's the same for all of us.. first and second resurrection alike.. If it's all according to election (God's choice and doing) then why does the 2nd resurrection require any different handling than the first?
I think they will be called, and being called they will be chosen, and chosen, justified.. Is that how it goes? Is that in James...? I wonder..
..there really are no verses which say the only option, is to believe before one's death.. Is there? it's my belief people will be saved during the millennium of Jesus.. and I believe it's likely every one not saved by then, including the 2nd resurrection after it occurs, will be saved during what I think is an age of judgment / review / deeply etching upon every heart and mind inn heaven and earth the absolute knowing of good from evil (Life from death) what can be done and what simply never can.
What works, can be, can occur.. and what simply cannot.. because there is only Life in God.. and that, for all, is through and in Jesus.. i think God has revealed Himself.. and i think He said through John the Baptist.. "I am..
....the voice of one crying in the wilderness.. make straight the path of the Lord".. He has abundantly revealed Himself.. hasn't He..?
.."full of grace and truth.."
"this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.."
God has revealed Himself.. "He is Love" "Love works no ill" ..and nothing, can stay His will.. nor delay it, or affect it in any way..
He does not have to punish.. i think His wrath is merely natural results and occurrences.. He doesn't have to punish.. sin destroys, one's own flesh, or that is, one's lower w/o God nature, punishes.. proves.. brings to destruction.. because He is perfection and life (is what I think:) Any tiny small thing outside His Will is im-perfection.. nonlife.. it all speaks quite loudly.. shifting sand.. dust and ashes.. apocalypse..
..the same story.. the same drama.. same truth proven.. in every single person's life.. and also the same story in all of (human and angel) history as a whole.. God is Life.. apart from Him, nothing.
(God bless) we are all one in Him
Quote from: marie glen on November 09, 2013, 02:44:19 AM
..there really are no verses which say the only option, is to believe before one's death.. Is there? it's my belief people will be saved during the millennium of Jesus.. and I believe it's likely every one not saved by then, including the 2nd resurrection after it occurs, will be saved during what I think is an age of judgment / review / deeply etching upon every heart and mind inn heaven and earth the absolute knowing of good from evil (Life from death) what can be done and what simply never can.
Hello marie.
I don't know of any verse which says that is the only option. IMO, the scriptures
as a whole teach that we have three options: (1) believe, be steadfast, and received the salvation of the 1st resurrection, and reign with the Christ, (2) believe but not remain steadfast, holding on to the desires of the flesh, missing out on the glory of the Great millennium, and receive salvation after the 2nd resurrection, and (3) not believe and receive salvation after the 2nd resurrection
and purification in the lake of fire.
:2c:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on November 11, 2013, 08:32:37 PM
I don't know of any verse which says that is the only option. IMO, the scriptures as a whole teach that we have three options: (1) believe, be steadfast, and received the salvation of the 1st resurrection, and reign with the Christ, (2) believe but not remain steadfast, holding on to the desires of the flesh, missing out on the glory of the Great millennium, and receive salvation after the 2nd resurrection, and (3) not believe and receive salvation after the 2nd resurrection and purification in the lake of fire.
:2c:
:iagree:
Quote from: JBerton on November 11, 2013, 08:32:37 PM
Quote from: marie glen on November 09, 2013, 02:44:19 AM
..there really are no verses which say the only option, is to believe before one's death.. Is there? it's my belief people will be saved during the millennium of Jesus.. and I believe it's likely every one not saved by then, including the 2nd resurrection after it occurs, will be saved during what I think is an age of judgment / review / deeply etching upon every heart and mind inn heaven and earth the absolute knowing of good from evil (Life from death) what can be done and what simply never can.
Hello marie.
I don't know of any verse which says that is the only option. IMO, the scriptures as a whole teach that we have three options: (1) believe, be steadfast, and received the salvation of the 1st resurrection, and reign with the Christ, (2) believe but not remain steadfast, holding on to the desires of the flesh, missing out on the glory of the Great millennium, and receive salvation after the 2nd resurrection, and (3) not believe and receive salvation after the 2nd resurrection and purification in the lake of fire.
:2c:
:smile: thanks! It's amazing how easily overlooked that little fact is (no verses saying after death all hope is lost) ..
And, perhaps that's the 'problem' the Bible doesn't really say if salvation after the 2nd resurrection, precedes or follows the LOF, the second death
but I understand there is widespread thought and tradition about the LOF in UR thought.. but I see it as worse case scenario, especially as to be one of the 'elect' relies totally upon God, not us.. so why wouldn't the rest go through the same process as the 'elect'? who can thwart God's will? why would they need a more stringent process? or less of one?
Once I started to see how the 1st advent of Jesus fulfilled the spring holy days of ancient Israel, it seemed logical the long 2nd one (3 peaks of?) would fulfill the 3 autumn holy days..
I'm partial to thinking death (2nd death) is nonlife, which to me, is backed up by death and the grave being thrown into the second death.. as then death and the grave being fully erased.. :Peace2: God bless!
what I perceive....after the pattern of Jesus Christ......first His baptism of repentance of sin.....
[John's baptism] in the Jordan...coming up with Holy spirit coming upon Him and preaching healing
forgiving sins...of those who accept Him. I beleive those who beleive in Christ are mirrored
after this pattern...who are called chosen receive Holy spirit in this realm.
Then...the laying down of His flesh which 'become likeness of sin/sin-bearing"...and the
resurrection of the dead..of those who died in their sins..
..thus Lord of the living[have life more abundantly now] and the Lord of the dead
..[those baptised for the dead/shall be last]
I am the first and the Last.........ALL live unto me. I AM the resurrection............so Jesus is
both the first and last...whether through repentance in this life..with forgiveness /Holy spirit
given/acknowledged..in this order/called to suffer with Him..........not harmed by fiery judgement
that suffers loss..yet is saved through fire[this world condemned saved up for fire]
or those who die in their sins[unrepentant in this life/not called to repentaance by Him]
or to be part of His little flock/elect in this life..or the 'other sheep He must bring/back/return
unto the Father
John attempted to persuade Him from needing to be baptized in the Jordan..for the repentance
of sin[He had no sin] but He said..'Let it be so,now,it is proper for us to do this to fulfill ALL
Righteousness[symbolizing the free gift of righteousness to All men through Christ]
those who repent in this life..and are to be patterned after Him in this life..........
and those who with the death of their flesh who die in their sins...are resurrected
after the pattern of His crucifixtion 3 days in grave/resurrection...........
I beleive His 3 1/2 year ministry....shadows the 3[ 1/2] days in the grave .and 3 1/2 days
of dead wittness's lying in streets of sodom/Egypt.
those that are called to Him in this life....have been with Him from the beginning[first 3 1/2 days o
f His ministry..and suffer with Him for the sake of the gospel in this life.
the last 3 1/2 days
are symbolized of His baptism into death for the sake of the dead[unquickened in this life]
sorry I couldn't say this better.........hard to put in words..
men unquickened in this life[not called] have free gift of righteousness/forgiveness of sin...
but the wicked have them blinded deceived[resurrection of righteous/wicked/gog's crwd..who
fight against Holy camp[those called in this life/free gift] the fire that comes down burns up the
wood,hay,stubble and they are saved as if through fire...the Lof is the place were Jesus sends
the wicked spirits He sperates from those of the 2nd resurrection class..and these spirits
go into everlasting cutting off...thus gog's crowd when refined of Jesus becomes great crowd[other
sheep He must bring]men imputed righteousness through Christ..satan demons doomed/are
wicked spirit equation of resurrection of righteous/wicked
REMEMBER HE IS THE RESURRECTION.......the first and the Last...and all that is written
and prophesied is fulfilled in Him .
Delivering us from the wicked one/evil is His purpose...for Love is as strong as death...
it's jealousy as unyeilding as the grave
In another thread sheila posted;
"As I just did a study on the birth pangs....and at present Kerry working on a two-
state solution to peace and security in Israel[two nations in your womb?] with the given due date
of 9 months by Kerry.....will they just give birth unto disturbance? Instant destruction upon them
when they are saying'peace and security?".[
is Perez as a son of Ahab..making a marriage covenat with 'jezebel/babylon/catholic pope/pact?"
........the due date on April 15..blood moon."
Further comments on this?
Wow, this thread "prophecy" is number one in the top ten threads as to number of views.. Began in July 2012 so not just because it's been here for ages.. I recently tried my hand at doing some images to communicate some things I believe the Holy Spirit showed me about bible prophecy and our days/ age.. I think they turned out okay so I put them up on my bible prophecy for today blog.. I'd put the link but I don't remember it! And hubbies on my computer.. it might be on my profile or one of my blogs which are linked to each other.
I've found the info very useful and perhaps someone else might find some of it interesting..
:cloud9: Thanks for bringing it to the "surface" Marie....I'm sure someone will benefit from gleaning from it..... :iagree:
as of Feb 5 this year Mr Moon of the UN made a statement the 'stalling' of the mid-east peace talks is reproachful. Obama wants
the presidency of the Un..and I am sure the glory of the mid-east peace agreement...having already won the Nobel Peace prize...
the powers that be have their agenda...and our Father has His...
Father says 'By My spirit"....and He plans on pouring out His spirit on all flesh............it is already raining/reigning.........
and soon the floodgates of Heaven are to be opened............
I think I agree about mr Obama.. because of two things actually, [1]what I think of as the world beast/body (rev 13:1-10) as opposed to the 'little' beast (11-18) which office is pinpointed by verse 13:13 (#'s no coincidence/mistake).. Which 13:13 is [#2] a (new?) fire brought to earth and first revealed by this office (but I think it was too big to register in ppl's mind as the fire and most expect a wand and a little fire I guess.. :dontknow:
When to me it seems like it would be hard to miss.. This always makes me want to say "scratching head" as I don't understand how it is so missed.. Same for the false prophet/teacher/teaching/theory which turned Christendom on its ear.. With its strong delusion..
The fire I'm mentioning here as 13:13 occurred in (imo) in 1945 which convinced the world to rebuild the world body( last days not yesteryear's) which had expired when it's head didn't sign on after all And it seems in rev ch 13 like the 'little' beast who at one time or another is/was in said "office" steps into the prime seat of the world beast/body and the two seem to more or less morph into one..
It's the false prophet/teaching and world body/beast which are thrown alive/active into the LOF at Jesus's return and thus at the time, no living beings thus far in the lake.. Imo :))
Isaaih 26;18 v17 as a woman with child that draweth near to her delivery,is in pain..and cryeth out in her pains....
so we have been in Thy sight,O'Lord.We have been with child..we have been in pain,we have as it were brought forth wind
[note Obama inscripture on one world trade center...we..we..we. defiance.] we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth...
neither hath the inhabitants of the world fallen.
THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE...TOGATHER WITH MY DEAD BODY THEY SHALL ARISE. Awake and sing! ye that dwell in the dust
for thy dew is as the dew of herbs..and the earth shall cast out the dead.
I can't help but ponder the 'stalling' with the angels that hold back the four winds...and the bridegroom delayeth in this scenario.
All in God's timing these things shall be fufilled.
:cloud9: I have never gotten into looking at President's or world leaders as inherently 'evil" in fact I barely pay enough attention to them to know who has the office. BUT....two years ago on Easter Sunday I was in Florida, and I was reading a book while someone else was watching the news and Obama's came on, having been asked at some meeting or other, if he had anything he wanted to say about Easter to the nation. I went on reading my book, until the Lord quickened something to me as Obama spoke.
He said something to the effect of, "I think whether you are a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim, Easter is a good start", and believe this or not, I was stunned when the Spirit quickened to me what he meant in his heart. It was, Christ was slaughtered, a generation later the Jews were too by Rome. Death to both sects, was why it was good for Muslims. The man is a Muslim in his heart, that proved it to me.
And if he was in control of the UN, and this country was overthrown, he could send in troops against Americans. My daughter was married to a man in the army and as such went to the base here a few times. There were Russian officers being trained there by us. And a questionnaire before this was sent out to the soldiers there. One of the primary questions was if Martial law was declared, would they follow orders and shoot on Americans. Most of them said no.
Add FEMA activities to it, and it's not too hard to see a scenario developing. This country has to fall for anything else to happen. That's just the way it is, because we were blessed with so much and strength we abused and turned from God just like Israel. Totally my :2c: and this is why I do my level best to keep my eyes on Him and keep pressing in. Blessings...
Amen.. To Sheila and Cardinal, both..
..and not a reason for His own to fear or even be confused.. Even when babble on (and on) falls, He has made His promises.. Those who dwell under the shadow (and wing) of the Almighty.. and those of the church of brotherly love shall be led to streams of fresh life giving waters..
The four winds held back.. a pause of what was unleashed in rev 13:13 and in 6:12-17, the opening of the new windy fire - the splitting of the atom as warfare is paused, not hard to see if the horsemen and seals are the main elements of the years of our Lord a.d., and this is a lock here on the vision, because they are described here as a blend of what they are at their first and what they are fully progresses/galloped/and fully mature at the 'end'..
In this way things are described here, so early on in the vision, things which actually occur very late on the planet. In seal six is the men running to caves and shelters, remember the bomb shelters? Then fast forward to the second cord in this weaving of what they are at their first and last, the full progression of man's splitting of the atom at the very 'end' when Jesus arrives in fire and with His angels.. He sends out to gather His elect..
But that first splitting of the atom i believe was the opening of the sixth seal - and I strongly feel the Lord has confirmed this to me.. And we are now in the pause of the split atom being used as warfare.. While chapter 7 the servants of God are sealed on their forehead, a great crowd/number from every tribe and nation and then also 144,000 of Israel - whom Jesus told Israel you shall not see me again - again until you say - blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord/Yahweh.
It all fits together so perfectly.. When whomever is watching - I.e. in that day, when the pause ends, and there is, I believe limited thermo-nuclear as war, likely in or from the Middle East? Then is when the seventh seal is broken open on the scroll, within which is the seven trumpets and things then escalate. But the whole 666 scenario I believe lasts only 45 days, with clear signposts beforehand and hopefully our grandkids will still be blessed to live most of their days with Liberty, i.e. Still a somewhat Christian nation and will know the sign when time to shut their door about them "til the indignation be overpast".
And perhaps the pause will continue for a bit.. But if the "watchman" see trouble coming and not warn the people... Woe.. ..."watch and pray". Revelation is the only book of the bible that if one studies or read/hears, it is viewed as because of ulterior motives! :smile: but "wisdom is justified of her children" i.e. we all have on our heart what the Lord puts there.. & UR completes the puzzle when we realize we are all in heaven and earth witnessing truth triumphing over untruth/babble. :))
I know many believe rev is only within, or past.. And that's fine.. Whatever we believe will not affect what occurs, or does not occur..
Quote from: marie glen on February 07, 2016, 06:45:24 AM
I know many believe rev is only within, or past.. Whatever we believe will not affect what occurs, or does not occur..
:thumbsup: SomeOne else is in control.
:cloud9: Amen and thank God for that.... :thumbsup:
Hebrews 12 The Supremacy of the Son
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature,
and upholds all things by the word of His power.
When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,...
Rev 199Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'
" And he said to me, "These are true words of God." 10Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me,
"Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God.
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
I wish you could all speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues
, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.
with the testimony of Jesus is understanding what Jesus said during His ministry
Revelation 1:1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring--those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God matt 4 If we really look at what Jesus is saying to satan/adversaries here ,
we Know that mankind must accept the fact that Every WORD OF GOD is also the judgments , not just the bread of heaven only ....
...3And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"
5Then the devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,...
The warnings and also the instructions , When Paul expounded on the Testimony of Jesus by saying here
Anyone having the Spirit of God must also have the Spirit of Christ also , Whom ever has the Son has the Father also 1 John 2 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Romans 8 Control by the Spirit
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness....
There is not one without the other working in us ..by the SPIRIT union because the Father always tells the Son what He is doing
John 5 The Father and the Son
...18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath,
but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself,
unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel....
We know the true Church is also apart of Christ Body of believers and whatever He does the Body also does by Him being the head and authority over the Body working according to His will /desire ...
Discern the Body of Christ
1 Cor 11 Observing the Lord's Supper
...28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep....
Pretty clear as to what is going on by the scriptures / WORD OF TRUTH BY THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH ..
Judged by the WORD SPOKEN LAST DAY SON ....
John 12 Some Believe in Jesus
...47"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him;
for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him;
the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
49"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak....
These fit perfectly as to what is happening in the now as it was then and what will be yet to come ...
A repeated pattern of destruction in the earth [as a witness ] as the Kingdom of God is being built by His Word and Spirit in power and authority [as a witness ]
on earth as it is in heaven as knowledge of good and evil increase and we KNOW By the Spirit that all things , good and bad work together for the good of those whom love God and are called accoding to HIS PURPOSE ,, yes even the bad has purpose in God to bring forth His perfect and complete plan . .....
Romans 8 28 God Works In All Things :HeartThrob:
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;...
the way I see it...all has been given unto Christ..all the old creation..for Him to raise up on that last day............I see satan
succeeding in causing fire to come down from heaven...but I also see God pouring out His spirit[fire] on all flesh....thus
satans portion to satan..and God's to God.
thus the image and the likeness of the corrupt..coming to it's end[old] and the image and likeness of the incorrupt becoming
life from the dead[New]
Quote from: sheila on February 07, 2016, 06:18:09 PM
the way I see it...all has been given unto Christ..all the old creation..for Him to raise up on that last day............I see satan
succeeding in causing fire to come down from heaven...but I also see God pouring out His spirit[fire] on all flesh....thus
satans portion to satan..and God's to God.
thus the image and the likeness of the corrupt..coming to it's end[old] and the image and likeness of the incorrupt becoming
life from the dead[New]
:HeartThrob:
Amen sisters.. Especially how He will accomplish ALL his will and intent :dsunny: how could it possibly be any less?!
He is a God of order.. Surely? Orderly.. We can see that by looking at the well oiled organization of the universe.. and of all things in it, including the families of mankind.. He's shown us His order.. And for that day and benefit of those of His, in that order is a timetable.. I didn't realize that really until just now.. We can see His order by the revelation vision and by the order that is shown around His throne in that vision.
The Throne, the Lamb, sevenfold Spirit of God, the heavenly creatures which cannot help but cry holy holy holy Lord God Almighty.. The elders, countless multitude of angels and those who happen to be elect are (being) sealed on their forehead, and 144,000 of national Israel.. All assembled as witnesses to God's Holy truth borne out and proven..
How does bible prophecy complement UR? is a question that's been at the back of my mind and I'm thinking by the witness ...that ALL in heaven and earth are, it would seem, intended to witness and be witnesses..
The timetable, or part of it, i'm thinking is cross references by our Lord and by Paul.. By Paul " if Israel's falling away is salvation to the nations, what shall their gathering to Him be? But life from the dead" (for the nations or that is believers of all nations- the 1st resurrection at His return..
And Jesus' words (last verse Mt 23) "you, Israel/Jerusalem, will not-see-me-again-until you Israel/Jerusalem say 'blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord/Yahweh'"
And, next to last verse(?) in rev 12, a history all its own, of the faith, an insert, like rev 13 is. Tho mostly is thought to run as time as a straight line which rev is not always strictly in order (imo).
Next to last verse, or so, in rev 12.. The dragon turns his attention (more) fully to the rest of the Faith's (other) children, Israel who "have the commandments of God and (by then) "hold to the testimony of Jesus" -- remembering the 144,000 being sealed in chapter 7.
And one more that I know of, rev chapter 16, verses 14,15, and 16 - "3 demons like frogs" very foul tasting "gather the Kings to Armageddon" against Israel "blessed are those who keep their garments (handy?) for I come as a thief" suddenly " and they gathered to Armageddon" against Israel, the Faith's 'other children'..
"Will He not tell His servants/slaves what He is doing before it come to pass?" :girlheart: