Prophecy

[CHB]

Thanks Jab,

I wonder about the double fulfillment also? You know, I do think we are in the later days but am not sure about any thing that is suppose to happen. Things can build up to a climax very fast. I have a feeling we will not make it past 2030.

CHB

[marie glen]

here's a shorter version of my earlier babbling.. :eyebrow:
a revelation riddle

1945 pinpoints an office
the man of sin
once was in
    :wacko2:

revelation 13:13
(beast 2)

[Molly]

A Thief in the Night


In Mathew 24, Jesus gives us many signs to look for which will signal the end of the Age.  He tells us, .."when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."[v 33].  He says the generation that sees these things "shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." [v 34]


He goes on to tell us that many will not be aware the end is near.  They will be drinking and marrying as in the days of Noah.  But, to his servants, the Saints, he declares:

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

He is telling us to watch and he has shown us what to watch for, but then he goes on to tell a somewhat puzzling parable:

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.



What is Jesus talking about here?  He tells us to watch because we don't know what hour he will return.  Then he says, if you knew what watch the thief [Jesus] was going to come you would have watched and he would not have broken up your house.  This implies we could know what watch he will come.  It also stresses how important it is that we do.  He refers here to a watch during which  He will return.  The watch refers to the three night watches of the watchmen on the tower.   

The Master will make the servant who is watching, and therefore able to feed the others meat in due season, a ruler over all his goods when he returns.  We receive another clue as to the watch here:

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.--Luke 12

Now we know the Blessed servants will be watching in the second or the third watch.  The second watch is 10pm-2am, the third watch is 2am-sunrise.  Are we to start sleeping in the day and watching by night?  Every sailor knows the night watches are the loneliest of all.

Yet, we know it is the one watching at the Lord's return who will keep his garments of immortality,  Again, Jesus tells us he is coming like a thief.  Again we are told we must watch at night because that is when thieves come.  To walk naked is to be mortal.  But, the blessed will be watching and able to put on the wedding garments of immortality for the marriage supper.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. --Rev 16

It behooves us therefore to be prepared when he returns.  The ones who are the Blessed will be ready.  Does that mean we can know when he will be returning?

We know that he will return at the last trump, the seventh trumpet of Revelation, and that this is the Feast of Trumpets.  On this feast, the priests go to the roof of the Temple and look into the dark sky for the first sliver which signals the appearance of the new moon.  When they see the moon, they signal to the people that the Feast of trumpets has begun.  Because the priests might have to look for this moon over a two day period, this is the feast which Christ was referring to when he said no man knows the day or the hour.

So we don't have to become night owls and turn our days into night.  We know what two days we need to be looking for him, and we know the appointed season,  the Feast of Trumpets.   

In another parable, he tells us he is coming in the middle of the night, and that some of the bride will be ready for him, some not.  For those who are ready, he will be the bridegroom.  To those not ready, he will be as a thief in the night.


Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

--Mat 25



Clearly it is very important that we know when to watch for his return.  The whole Christian world tells us we are not to know when that time will be.  But, what does the Bible tell us?  Will he come as a thief in the night to those Blessed  servants who know when he is coming and are watching for him?

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

--1 Thess 5



We will know when he will return and we will be watching for him, because he has made it easy for us.  He has told us what signs to look for and what season he will appear, even the time,  the second watch on the Feast of Trumpets.



So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. [Heb 9:28]



Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
--Luke 21:36



To Be Cont'd....

[lomarah]

Interesting post Moll.

[Watch/Pray]

A Thief in the Night


In Mathew 24, Jesus gives us many signs to look for which will signal the end of the Age.  He tells us, .."when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."[v 33].  He says the generation that sees these things "shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." [v 34]


He goes on to tell us that many will not be aware the end is near.  They will be drinking and marrying as in the days of Noah.  But, to his servants, the Saints, he declares:

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

He is telling us to watch and he has shown us what to watch for, but then he goes on to tell a somewhat puzzling parable:

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.



What is Jesus talking about here?  He tells us to watch because we don't know what hour he will return.  Then he says, if you knew what watch the thief [Jesus] was going to come you would have watched and he would not have broken up your house.  This implies we could know what watch he will come.  It also stresses how important it is that we do.  He refers here to a watch during which  He will return.  The watch refers to the three night watches of the watchmen on the tower.   

The Master will make the servant who is watching, and therefore able to feed the others meat in due season, a ruler over all his goods when he returns.  We receive another clue as to the watch here:

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.--Luke 12

Now we know the Blessed servants will be watching in the second or the third watch.  The second watch is 10pm-2am, the third watch is 2am-sunrise.  Are we to start sleeping in the day and watching by night?  Every sailor knows the night watches are the loneliest of all.

Yet, we know it is the one watching at the Lord's return who will keep his garments of immortality,  Again, Jesus tells us he is coming like a thief.  Again we are told we must watch at night because that is when thieves come.  To walk naked is to be mortal.  But, the blessed will be watching and able to put on the wedding garments of immortality for the marriage supper.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. --Rev 16

It behooves us therefore to be prepared when he returns.  The ones who are the Blessed will be ready.  Does that mean we can know when he will be returning?

We know that he will return at the last trump, the seventh trumpet of Revelation, and that this is the Feast of Trumpets.  On this feast, the priests go to the roof of the Temple and look into the dark sky for the first sliver which signals the appearance of the new moon.  When they see the moon, they signal to the people that the Feast of trumpets has begun.  Because the priests might have to look for this moon over a two day period, this is the feast which Christ was referring to when he said no man knows the day or the hour.

So we don't have to become night owls and turn our days into night.  We know what two days we need to be looking for him, and we know the appointed season,  the Feast of Trumpets.   

In another parable, he tells us he is coming in the middle of the night, and that some of the bride will be ready for him, some not.  For those who are ready, he will be the bridegroom.  To those not ready, he will be as a thief in the night.


Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

--Mat 25



Clearly it is very important that we know when to watch for his return.  The whole Christian world tells us we are not to know when that time will be.  But, what does the Bible tell us?  Will he come as a thief in the night to those Blessed  servants who know when he is coming and are watching for him?

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

--1 Thess 5



We will know when he will return and we will be watching for him, because he has made it easy for us.  He has told us what signs to look for and what season he will appear, even the time,  the second watch on the Feast of Trumpets.



So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. [Heb 8:28]



Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
--Luke 21:36



To Be Cont'd....

Molly, thank you so  much.  You have very graciously and generously given many scriptures to study, ponder...   I have done a few short studies on Watch and Pray and learned that Jesus  often "commanded" that we watch and pray... of particular interest to me are the circumstances in Matt 26:36-46...I need to ponder on the connection between Matt 24 and Matt 26... Oh yes, of particular (passionate) interest to me is Matt 24:37 ...days of Noe... I am deeply concerned about what we who are in Christ (ark) should be doing ... v 42 seems to answer my question WATCH...  again thanks Molly, Watch/pray aka anna274, goodreport, seekfirst

[Molly]

The ekklesia at Mount Sinai--the initiation of the feast of Trumpets



10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

--Ex 19



16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

--Exodus 19



After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.  [Hos 6:2]



And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

--Lk 13:32



Michael Rood--Feast of Trumpets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtvVxKzqoHw

[Molly]

The Seventh Trumpet of Revelation




7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

--Rev 10



51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

--1 Cor 15



13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

--1 Thess 4



29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

--Mat 24


Handel--The Trumpet Shall Sound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYTQ6gpcuYA

[CHB]

The ekklesia at Mount Sinai--the initiation of the feast of Trumpets



10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

--Ex 19



16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

--Exodus 19



After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.  [Hos 6:2]



And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

--Lk 13:32



Michael Rood--Feast of Trumpets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtvVxKzqoHw

Molly, thanks for this link it was really interesting.

CHB

[eaglesway]

The Seventh Trumpet of Revelation




7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

--Rev 10



51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

--1 Cor 15



13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

--1 Thess 4



29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

--Mat 24


Handel--The Trumpet Shall Sound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYTQ6gpcuYA

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done(finished). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
(Rev 16:17-20)

Just a tip from out my personal studies of Revelation over the last 30 years- examine or disregard as ye wish :o)

If you examine the pouring out of the vials as a sequence following each trumpet(line up the trumpets and the bowls-first trumpet/first bowl, second trumpet/second bowl, etc.), an interesting algorithm appears and the understanding of Revelation as a wheel with spokes(various narrative sequences, like the trumpets, the bowls, the two witnesses) running to a hub(the universal revelation of Jesus Christ) appears. Everything from revelation chptr 8 to the end is the contents of the seventh seal. The seventh seal is the rim of the wheel.

The first 5 chapters reveal the Lamb as the messenger to and Lord of the churches(Rv 1:5-7), as well as the Messiah of all men(Rv 5:13,14)- a first layer of comprehensive revelation unveiling elements of this whole age.

In the sixth chapter the Lamb opens Daniels sealed book(Da 12:9).(IMO Daniel corresponds to John as the pre-eminent prophets, each of their entire age, receiving prophecies that reveled both the primary historical streams and the primary spiritual streams of their respective ages)

IMO, The first 6 seals reveal the primary streams/spirits of this age, beginning the death burial and resurrection of the Lamb and the church in its infancy and ending with  the second coming of Christ and the beginning of the millenial age. The seveth seal reveals the outworking of those streams through the age, always pointing towards a crescendo to conclude at the end of the age- a revelation of Jesus Christ to all men, the veil that covers the peoples removed upon Mt Zion, etc.

In other words.....The six seals are second layer of revelation unveiling this whole age.

Seals:

1 The message of the gospel of Jesus

2 The wars of men attempting to pre-empt the kingdom

3 The increasing dominion of the rule of law

4 The increasing dominion of international commerce

5 The filling up of the priesthood of the overcomers through martyrdom

6 The destruction of the rule of men by the sovereign hand of God and the revelation of the reigning/raining presence of God among His people as the kingdom of God overtaking the whole earth.

_______________________________

The second coming is seen in john's apocalypse 3 times(Rv 6:16,17;Rv11:15-19;Rv 19:11-20) - NOT because there are 3 second comings as J. Phineas Dake, and others like him assumed (in their chronological understanding of the revelation).

The second coming is seen 3 times(at least) in Revelation because there are series of simultaneously occurring sequences, all spokes of revelation in a wheel that always turns around the central theme- THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST TO ALL.


:2c:

[sheila]

Odes of Solomon 23  referencing the sealed document sent by God..is one of the great mysteries

  of the collection.

          v 5  and His thought was like a letter;His will descended from on high,and it was sent like

  an arrow violently shot from the bow. and many hands  rushed to the letter to take it an seize it and read it

  and it escaped their fingers,and they were afrightened at it and the seal that was upon it.

   Because it was not permitted them to loose it's seal.........but those who saw it went after the letter

  that they might know where it would alight and who should read it,and who should hear it........

   BUT A WHEEL RECEIVED IT AND  COME OVER IT........and there was with it a sign of the kingdom

and the Government...........

   v 19 and the letter was a great volume,which was wholly written by the finger of God; and the name

of the Father was on it, and of the Son and of the Holy spirit,to rule forever and ever.

[eaglesway]

The ekklesia at Mount Sinai--the initiation of the feast of Trumpets



10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

--Ex 19



16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

--Exodus 19



After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.  [Hos 6:2]



And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

--Lk 13:32

The writer of Hebrews refers to this specifically and expressly :o)

  For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire(Sinai), and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED." And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling."

  But you have come to Mount Zion(our New Third Day Gathering/Feasting Place :o) and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. (Heb 12:18-24)

"Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples".

[Molly]

Eaglesway, just to let you know, I am taking the position, for now, that the sequence is the 7 trumpets followed by the 7 vials/bowls of wrath, that the elect are raptured at the beginning of the blowing of the 7th trumpet, that the elect will be on earth throughout the great Tribulation, that the 7th trumpet is also known as the day of the Lord, that immediately following the rapture the vials of wrath are poured out on the earth [because we are not appointed to wrath we are removed first], and that the wicked are removed from the earth, that both immortals [sons of God] and mortals [those non Christians who have made it through the day of the Lord, even some non raptured Christians and Jews] will live together on earth during the millenium, that those mortals living on earth during the millenium will be very long lived as men were in the early chapters of Genesis, that the now glorified Saints will be ruling and reigning on earth with Jesus for 1000 years.

Also, that we are beginning the 7th day from Adam [6000 years are past] which is also the beginning of the 3rd day [resurrection day] from Christ [2000 years have past], so these end times events, and the resurrection and glorification of the Saints,  are upon us.

In other words, I am reading this pretty much completely literally and just trying to work out an order of events for myself.  But for now, I'm concentrating on trumpets since it symbolizes one of the promises of Easter [Passover].

So Ill just keep plodding along in my literal fashion.  But, it is a work in progress.   :winkgrin: :2c:

[eaglesway]

Thats Ok..... I am just posting my opinions :o) I will say tho that I think the sequenced relationship of the bowls and trumpets works literally AND historically. When I discovered it 25 years ago I was pretty much a total literalist. Even from a strictly literal approach- the apocalypse is a series of visions culminating in the second coming-imo :o) Since the seventh trumpet(last trumpet) is the first ressurection- according to Paul and Jesus, How can there be all those events after it? No need to respond, just posing a hypothetical question. Since the two witnesses occur before the seventh trumpet, and since the seveth trumpet commances the kingdom (Rv 11:15) a strictly literal interpretation makes it impossible for the bowls to come after it, IMO.

[Molly]

Eaglesway, It works for me because I see the 7th trumpet as the day of the Lord.  Others seem to think the great tribulation is the wrath of God, so they believe in pre-trib rapture,  but it's not.  The tribulation is the final birth pangs of the sons of God.  The mystery is finished at the beginning of the 7th trumpet, at the end of the great Tribulation,  when the elect is raptured.  They are being 'changed' into their immortal bodies as the day of the Lord is beginning, which will be the pouring of God's wrath on an evil and unrepentant world. Those two things will happen almost simultaneously   Then, it will be the end of the age and we will move into the millenium, the day of rest--1000 years is a day with the Lord. :2c:

Except for the elect, the day of the Lord is not going to be gentle Jesus, meek and mild, --it's going to be the Lion of the tribe of Judah.




The great day of the Lord is near,
near and hastening fast;
the sound of the day of the Lord is bitter,
the mighty man cries aloud there.
15 A day of wrath is that day,
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and devastation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 a day of trumpet blast and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the lofty battlements.

17 I will bring distress on men,
so that they shall walk like the blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord;
their blood shall be poured out like dust,
and their flesh like dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold
shall be able to deliver them
on the day of the wrath of the Lord.
In the fire of his jealous wrath,
all the earth shall be consumed;
for a full, yea, sudden end
he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

--Zephaniah 1

[eaglesway]

Eaglesway, It works for me because I see the 7th trumpet as the day of the Lord.  Others seem to think the great tribulation is the wrath of God, so they believe in pre-trib rapture,  but it's not.  The tribulation is the final birth pangs of the sons of God.  The mystery is finished at the beginning of the 7th trumpet, at the end of the great Tribulation,  when the elect is raptured.  They are being 'changed' into their immortal bodies as the day of the Lord is beginning, which will be the pouring of God's wrath on an evil and unrepentant world. Those two things will happen almost simultaneously   Then, it will be the end of the age and we will move into the millenium, the day of rest--1000 years is a day with the Lord. :2c:

Except for the elect, the day of the Lord is not going to be gentle Jesus, meek and mild, --it's going to be the Lion of the tribe of Judah.




The great day of the Lord is near,
near and hastening fast;
the sound of the day of the Lord is bitter,
the mighty man cries aloud there.
15 A day of wrath is that day,
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and devastation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 a day of trumpet blast and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the lofty battlements.

17 I will bring distress on men,
so that they shall walk like the blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord;
their blood shall be poured out like dust,
and their flesh like dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold
shall be able to deliver them
on the day of the wrath of the Lord.
In the fire of his jealous wrath,
all the earth shall be consumed;
for a full, yea, sudden end
he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

--Zephaniah 1

I am pretty much agreement with that, altho I see the shaking of everything that remains to be shaken(wrath of God) as a process through this entire age, the final pangs of which occur during the last three and a half years of the 'great tribulation". I also see the seventh trumpet as the revelation of the sons of God/first ressurection (rom 8; rev 19) and the beginning of the ministry of reconciliation and restoration of the world, under the rod of iron. Peter describes this as the 'present world being reserved for fire' in which the 'elements(stoicheon, elemental principles or foundations) will be consumed" making way for a "new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells"(earth and heaven merge creating a tabernacle of righteousness- the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as water covers the sea)- this, to me, is the purpose of the millenial age- which I also see as the Day of the Lord(Peter.."one thousand years is as a day, a day as 1000 years"). This Day is often portrayed i scriptural snap-shots, in my opinion, that represent the process that will be occuring over the whole course of time-1000 year jubilee -the renewing of the earth.

It is impossible of course to fully address such things in sound bytes- but it is incredibly interesting for sure.

[Molly]

Eaglesway, It works for me because I see the 7th trumpet as the day of the Lord.  Others seem to think the great tribulation is the wrath of God, so they believe in pre-trib rapture,  but it's not.  The tribulation is the final birth pangs of the sons of God.  The mystery is finished at the beginning of the 7th trumpet, at the end of the great Tribulation,  when the elect is raptured.  They are being 'changed' into their immortal bodies as the day of the Lord is beginning, which will be the pouring of God's wrath on an evil and unrepentant world. Those two things will happen almost simultaneously   Then, it will be the end of the age and we will move into the millenium, the day of rest--1000 years is a day with the Lord. :2c:

Except for the elect, the day of the Lord is not going to be gentle Jesus, meek and mild, --it's going to be the Lion of the tribe of Judah.




The great day of the Lord is near,
near and hastening fast;
the sound of the day of the Lord is bitter,
the mighty man cries aloud there.
15 A day of wrath is that day,
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and devastation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 a day of trumpet blast and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the lofty battlements.

17 I will bring distress on men,
so that they shall walk like the blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord;
their blood shall be poured out like dust,
and their flesh like dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold
shall be able to deliver them
on the day of the wrath of the Lord.
In the fire of his jealous wrath,
all the earth shall be consumed;
for a full, yea, sudden end
he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

--Zephaniah 1

I am pretty much agreement with that, altho I see the shaking of everything that remains to be shaken(wrath of God) as a process through this entire age, the final pangs of which occur during the last three and a half years of the 'great tribulation". I also see the seventh trumpet as the revelation of the sons of God/first ressurection (rom 8; rev 19) and the beginning of the ministry of reconciliation and restoration of the world, under the rod of iron. Peter describes this as the 'present world being reserved for fire' in which the 'elements(stoicheon, elemental principles or foundations) will be consumed" making way for a "new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells"(earth and heaven merge creating a tabernacle of righteousness- the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as water covers the sea)- this, to me, is the purpose of the millenial age- which I also see as the Day of the Lord(Peter.."one thousand years is as a day, a day as 1000 years"). This Day is often portrayed i scriptural snap-shots, in my opinion, that represent the process that will be occuring over the whole course of time-1000 year jubilee -the renewing of the earth.

It is impossible of course to fully address such things in sound bytes- but it is incredibly interesting for sure.

Yes, I haven't given much thought to how any of it might apply to the last 2000 years or the millenium.  I am only focused on the 3.5 years of the great Tribulation and the outpouring of God's wrath on the day of the Lord/7th trumpet.   A lot of people will die, it will be a terrifying sight to those who experience it--I do not see it as spiritual or metaphorical but as something that will really happen the way it's described.  It won't be a pretty picture.


Come together and hold assembly,
O shameless nation,
2 before you are driven away
    like the drifting chaff,
before there comes upon you
    the fierce anger of the Lord,
before there comes upon you
    the day of the wrath of the Lord.
3 Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land,
    who do his commands;
seek righteousness, seek humility;
    perhaps you may be hidden
    on the day of the wrath of the Lord.
4 For Gaza shall be deserted,
    and Ash′kelon shall become a desolation;
Ashdod's people shall be driven out at noon,
    and Ekron shall be uprooted.


5 Woe to you inhabitants of the seacoast,
    you nation of the Cher′ethites!
The word of the Lord is against you,
    O Canaan, land of the Philistines;
    and I will destroy you till no inhabitant is left.
6 And you, O seacoast, shall be pastures,
    meadows for shepherds
    and folds for flocks.
7 The seacoast shall become the possession
    of the remnant of the house of Judah,
    on which they shall pasture,
and in the houses of Ash′kelon
    they shall lie down at evening.
For the Lord their God will be mindful of them
    and restore their fortunes.

--Zeph 2

[lomarah]

Odes of Solomon 23  referencing the sealed document sent by God..is one of the great mysteries

  of the collection.

          v 5  and His thought was like a letter;His will descended from on high,and it was sent like

  an arrow violently shot from the bow. and many hands  rushed to the letter to take it an seize it and read it

  and it escaped their fingers,and they were afrightened at it and the seal that was upon it.

   Because it was not permitted them to loose it's seal.........but those who saw it went after the letter

  that they might know where it would alight and who should read it,and who should hear it........

   BUT A WHEEL RECEIVED IT AND  COME OVER IT........and there was with it a sign of the kingdom

and the Government...........

   v 19 and the letter was a great volume,which was wholly written by the finger of God; and the name

of the Father was on it, and of the Son and of the Holy spirit,to rule forever and ever.

What (or who) is the wheel Sheila?

[eaglesway]

Wheels within wheels with eyes all around. And the spirits of the living creatures was within the wheels, and wherever they went they went without turning, like lightning, from place to place. :o)   Ezekiel

[sheila]

I see the wheel..and wheel within wheels..as the throne of God...His administration as Sovereign

  over His creation..  He speaking and fulfilling His word..His teaching.The myriads upon myriads

that serve Him .Him sending forth His word..the going forth of it..as a circuit..accomplishing what

He sent it forth for[His will] and returning unto Him fulfilled.

  much more to say about...watchers in the wings etc

[lomarah]

Thanks!  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

The Two Witnesses of Revelation


Who are the two witnesses of Revelation?  There are many ideas about this, but I am going to put forth the idea that it will be the end time church, who will have, like John the Baptist, the spirit of Elijah to  announce the coming of Christ during the last 3.5 years before his return.

in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

--2 Cor 13:1


Jesus has commissioned his disciples to witness to the world.  We see in Mathew 24 that this is also an end time command.


14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

--Mat 24



What will be the characteristics of God's end time witnesses?  They will be witnessing to the world for the 3.5 years between the 6th and the 7th trumpet.   They will be the temple of God [rev 11:1].  They will be humble, 'clothed in sackcloth,'[Rev 11:2] 

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.  [Rev 11:4]

Olive trees speak of Israel and candlesticks speak of the Gentile church.  Thus, they will come from both groups.  They will speak the word of God to an unrepentant world [fire will come out of their mouths Rev 11:5]   They will have supernatural protection and power for 3.5 years and then they will be raptured at the 7th trumpet.  This is the remnant of the church, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ' [Rev 12:17], who will be raptured at the beginning of the 7th trumpet, after they have been killed  by Satan and lie dead in the square for 3.5 days.

We see them also described in Zechariah 4.   Here they are called the two anointed ones, which in the Greek would be the two christos [christs]:

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.  [Zech 4]



Two witnesses, two prophets, two anointed ones--the end time church will have the spirit without measure, just as Jesus himself did when he walked the earth during his 3.5 year ministry.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.  [Rev 11:12]



But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come on you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

--Acts 1:8

[marie glen]

Thats Ok..... I am just posting my opinions :o) I will say tho that I think the sequenced relationship of the bowls and trumpets works literally AND historically. When I discovered it 25 years ago I was pretty much a total literalist. Even from a strictly literal approach- the apocalypse is a series of visions culminating in the second coming-imo :o) Since the seventh trumpet(last trumpet) is the first ressurection- according to Paul and Jesus, How can there be all those events after it? No need to respond, just posing a hypothetical question. Since the two witnesses occur before the seventh trumpet, and since the seveth trumpet commances the kingdom (Rv 11:15) a strictly literal interpretation makes it impossible for the bowls to come after it, IMO.

I agree as I think the bowls are concurrent (I think the word is) as the 1st. Resurrection occurs, the going up, the bowls go down, like in 1?thess 5:7 (I think). He comes with His angels and fire.

[marie glen]

I've never understood what/who are the 2 witnesses.. not sure wat role believers will play. I go back and forth between Holy Ghost filled believers, gentile and natural Israel, and the final man of sin (singular & plural) making war with the saints and overcoming them.

[Molly]

I agree as I think the bowls are concurrent (I think the word is) as the 1st. Resurrection occurs, the going up, the bowls go down, like in 1?thess 5:7 (I think). He comes with His angels and fire.

Yes the 7th trumpet announces the day of the Lord.  As the trumpet begins to sound the resurrection and rapture happens, because we are not appointed to wrath,  followed by the day of the Lord, the beginning of the judgment on the world,  and the bowls of the wrath of God are poured out upon the world.  Take a look at this: the bowls of wrath are poured out during the ten days between the feast of Trumpets and the holiest day of the Jewish year, the day of Atonement.



11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

--Rev 19

[Molly]

I've never understood what/who are the 2 witnesses.. not sure wat role believers will play. I go back and forth between Holy Ghost filled believers, gentile and natural Israel, and the final man of sin (singular & plural) making war with the saints and overcoming them.

I think the problem people have with the two witnesses is that everyone thinks they are only two people.  But they forget that Jesus sent his disciples out by twos because the Bible requires two witnesses for every matter.

One thing I realized recently, which you might consider, is the battle is fought in heaven and Satan is defeated and thrown out of heaven to earth for the last 3.5 years before the return of Jesus.  This is why the great Tribulation, Satan is now on earth indwelling a man, and woe to the inhabitants of the earth.

But, the other piece of this is that Satan is no longer in heaven accusing us before God, day and night.  We therefore come into our power as the Lord's christ [anointed ones] 3.5 years before Jesus returns and before we receive our glorified bodies! 


7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

--Rev 12