Love/Hate

[jabcat]

And James, I too appreciate your heartfelt post.  I do realize many of  my brothers and sisters in Christ see this issue very differently then myself.  We each have our own journey and understanding.  I could go through my Bible and put together verses, passages etc together to support what I see.  You, Molly, CHB can do the same.  We see verses through our own relationship and understanding hoping the Holy Spirit is guiding that understanding.  I hope my words have help sharpen, as many of your points have help sharpen me.

Cool post, thanks.  And I hear you w/p.  Sometimes I spend so much time and energy questioning, "assisting discussion along", I get wearied with it, and I realized today that part of the weariness is that sometimes I don't just come out and say what I really believe - rather instead, hoping to help others think about it.  And in the process sometimes I get frustrated.  I own it.  Sometimes I just need to spit it out :).

Yeah Shawn, I just went walking around Lowes looking for some guttering :), and hammering in my head about this issue - again, looking at different angles of it, etc.  Questioning my own beliefs about it.

I don't see any way I can personally dispute or explain away the scriptures about going to someone and attempting to help them, specifically with sin.  I believe a thorough search and revelation of the scriptures would boil down to God's Word's through Paul - speak the truth in love. I'm realizing that in anything, if we do it in the flesh, in the wrong attitude or spirit, it's wrong. 

That said, that I see clear instructions as to going to someone directly [at times?  as led!] - I really think one of the main things that prompted me to start this thread is a wider, societal aspect - starting in the world, and I believe now, permeating the church.  I.e., what I believe is the lie that if we disagree or take a stand scripturally - even in love - we're basically told to shut up, it no longer counts.  So it grieves me that we as a society, and now more and more as a church, we are not willing - when directly faced with the opportunity, when led, when appropriate,  and in love - to speak up.  I believe "we're" believing the lie that we should just keep quiet, there is no standard of right and wrong, and morality is irrelevant.  So the creep has become a deluge.   :2c:   

Personally,  I believe I at least need to be willing to speak the truth in love - when prompted.  And honestly, I wish more would do so when presented with the opportunity.  But again, that's between every one and God.  We can't force, we're just required to do what we're led to do - whether that's be silent, or speak up.    My problem is, within "the church", I usually keep quiet so as to not offend or out of fear - and "in the world", sometimes I want to say things that may be true, but are not in love.   :sigh:  Blessings.

[CHB]

shawn, you must not have read some of my posts? Read Jabcats post #66, I feel the same way. I think he has a more loving attitude than I do?

No one is singling out Homosexuals that is just what the discussion is about.

I am not going to sugar coat anything, I am going to say it as I see it. Here is the way I feel about the problem of homosexuality and it is a problem. I think I have just about exausted everything I should say on this subject.

Homosexuality was a sin that got people stoned in the OT and Paul said "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but RATHER REPROVE THEM (Eph. 5:11). (Eph. 4:15) But SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE.

(Eph. 5:25-33) nothing in these verses say anything about a man loving another man or a woman loving another woman. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

(Col. 3:16) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richlyin all wisdom;TEACHING AND ADMMONISHING ONE ANOTHER.

You cannot tell me this isn't talking about Homosexuals.

(Rom. 1:26-28) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

I think homosexuality is wrong, a sin and if they can voice their opinion as to why they think it is ok, I think we should be able to voice our opinion as to why it is wrong and not be condemned for it. We are being judged for our beliefs more than the homosexuals are. We who don't think this is right are being put down for how we feel about it and for encouraging others to speak up and let them know it is wrong. Now, to me this is wrong.

I will shut up for now.

CHB



 

[shawn]

CHB, I'm not sure you read any of my posts.  That is ok, but forgive me if I don't address your points again.  I understand you believe homosexuality is a sin (just as we all do), and you believe it's important to let others know what you believe about the subject.  I will respect that.

And Jab, we are all built different.  We are different instruments in Gods orchestra.  Some are built for prophecy, some are built for hospitality, some for healing, and others for teaching.  I think I'm as guilty as the next guy at trying to make a flute out of a trumpet.  May The Lord forgive me for that.  The way I see it today, may not be the way I see it tomorrow and that is called growth.  Thanks for all your posts which help me grow in ways I wouldn't grow without your insights.  Sometimes I get the impression you don't cut yourself much slack.  We are not supposed to have all this figured out.  I think the wrestling along the journey is just an extension of the threshing process.  It's painful sometimes.  But, it leads to truer truths, and deeper more textured insights about our Creator.  I believe this wrestling pleases Him.

[jabcat]

And Jab, we are all built different.  We are different instruments in Gods orchestra.

Thanks, yes, I agree with that - also, our own personalities, strengths and weaknesses.

More general comments now, the "you" I use isn't just "you", if you know what I mean.   I mean we/us, the church.  These comments are based on where I spend some time, and some things I personally see and experience.  Maybe not everyone will be exposed to all this - at least yet.  If I go into the mountains I dream about, or become the guitar-playing monk I kidded about... :bigGrin:
Or shut the computer off and "let it come to me".  I'll pray about that..maybe I shouldn't be involved in those discussions with the world so much.  Probably.  (Involved are also other professing believers, who actually condone the sins.)

I think  :laugh: I believe (pretty much) everything I've said.  Kind of coming full circle to my OP, where I said I spend time reading comments on news articles on different news sites, perhaps more than I should.  Regardless, doing so, I may be seeing some things that others aren't seeing so much of, or vice versa. I know one particular member has more guts than me, and actually spends time sharing in much tougher places than me.  I'm a light-weight.  Mostly an observer, interested in what people think.     

   Anyway, what I often see, especially regarding anything like a social/spiritual/cultural issue - even though pertinent, not as much about my direct interpersonal contacts, but "out there" - whether it's about a church congregation, other issues.  Right now just happens to be the hot topic being about homosexuality and homosexual marriage.  So I'm seeing a LOT of screaming at anyone - loving, pleasant, whatever - that states anything about the scriptures or God's will about one of the issues.  There may be 20 people "for" whatever sin is in question, and if one person gently says "Jesus said", etc., then the screaming of "not everyone believes in fairies in the sky", "you're spewing hate", "you Christians are intolerant", etc.   What I'm saying is, I believe a door is closing that only God will open at some point - I'm just not sure what will have to happen in the meantime, and how each of us might be affected.  Make no mistake. In the arenas I'm talking about now, if you even utters a simple scriptural statement, in certain of those conversations, you'll be vilified and hated for it.  If you have any sound scriptural beliefs at all that is different than "I accept not only you, but what you're doing", then you're the enemy, stupid, delusional, the Bible's outdated, you're incompetent, insane...  So my whole point in starting this was, I personally believe we've cowered under this, and may be in danger of putting our light under a bushel at times.

  Again, make no mistake - there's a tidal wave sweeping the country and I believe the world, that is for anything that's against God.  As I said, the push is toward even publicly stating something like  homosexuality (which again is the hot and virulent current topic - probably not a coincidence, as it's the next taboo to be broken down in a series of steps ["we wrestle  not against flesh and blood") then it will be a hate crime and against the law, with consequences of who knows what.  I'm 54, and I'm not positive I'll see it in my lifetime, but unless the Lord cuts the time short and intervenes, it will happen.  That's where we're headed.  If I weren't "out there" in those spots (and it's nothing exceptionally bizarre [Yahoo, MSNBC, Huffington Post, etc.] I probably wouldn't see it as much, and if so, it would be even easier to be lulled to sleep.  It's the put a frog in water and slowly heat it to boiling, and it doesn't even realize it's dying phenomena.    I guess I'm sort of sounding an alarm.  If I'm wrong, ignore me and pray for me.  But IMO, unless you're buying into the lie that if you disagree and stand for something different then you're a hater so you should just keep your mouth shut, then you are indeed hated and labeled as the enemy. Again, I'm not talking about going out and reading people the riot act and slamming them into hell - but more so if it hits us in the face, do we just be silent, or do we truly believe in speaking the truth in love?  Everyone must decide.

Blessings.

[Molly]

Amen, Jab!

[shawn]

Well thought out post Jab.  I read it all, and can see where you are headed.  Will being a Christian become akin to being in the KKK?  I don't know.  But, I will say this, for your fears to become realized MUCH would have to change.  If that day comes, then that day comes.  I won't live in fear.  I will not keep my focus on these things.  What I will try to do is love God, my neighbor and speak truth in love.  If there comes a day when Christians are considered a hate group, banned, imprisioned, killed for their beliefs then I pray I'm prepared for the persecution and that I stand strong.   

[Molly]

Don't kid yourself that much will have to change, Shawn.  It depends what part of the country you are from.  I already live in that place.

[jabcat]

Well thought out post Jab.  I read it all, and can see where you are headed.  Will being a Christian become akin to being in the KKK?  I don't know.  If that day comes, then that day comes.  I won't live in fear.  I will not keep my focus on these things.  What I will try to do is love God, my neighbor and speak truth in love.  If there comes a day when Christians are considered a hate group, banned, imprisioned, killed for their beliefs then I pray I'm prepared for the persecution and that I stand strong.

Thanks Shawn, and amen to everything, except what will have to change.  I just don't know about that.  I'm not a prophet, although I probably am the son of one.  The older I get, I realize that many years ago my now-deceased father saw things in the future and tried to sound the alarm, about things that are actually happening now.  But I don't know.  I observe, wonder, and suspect.  I do know as Molly mentions, and in general depending where one is and in what circles one is operating, it's different for different people.  Not all have got a good taste of this yet I guess, and I very well may be wrong about some of what I've written in this thread.  God knows, and the UR connection to this is, God will make all things new.  What's our role in the meantime?  I do believe it's abiding in Him and having Him flow through us.  The search for me is, what does that look like.  Paul said "oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me?  Jesus Christ".  Amen.

Blessings and grace.

[jabcat]

I ran across this from Willy Torrensin;

"People, who struggle and eventually give up, often have as their goal, the desire to be 'straight'.  This goal sets a person up for failure.  Failure doesn't mean that the Bible should be rewritten.  The true answer has always been in the scriptures.  Our goal is not to seek heterosexuality, and it never has been.  Our goal is to seek our God and to find the one who becomes our all.  When Jesus is the goal, he aligns us by his power to his Father's design for our lives.  His goal is not for us to find sexual perfection but to walk toward his holy perfection.  Holiness is his aim.

"I also discovered that God's love and grace were available for me as I learned to walk this new life, step by step, and day by day."

Amen, God is good.

[shawn]

I ran across this from Willy Torrensin;

"People, who struggle and eventually give up, often have as their goal, the desire to be 'straight'.  This goal sets a person up for failure.  Failure doesn't mean that the Bible should be rewritten.  The true answer has always been in the scriptures.  Our goal is not to seek heterosexuality, and it never has been.  Our goal is to seek our God and to find the one who becomes our all.  When Jesus is the goal, he aligns us by his power to his Father's design for our lives.  His goal is not for us to find sexual perfection but to walk toward his holy perfection.  Holiness is his aim.

"I also discovered that God's love and grace were available for me as I learned to walk this new life, step by step, and day by day."

Amen, God is good.

I think he nailed it.

[shawn]

Don't kid yourself that much will have to change, Shawn.  It depends what part of the country you are from.  I already live in that place.

You are put in prison for what you believe?  You live in Iraq?

[marie glen]

Hi! I've only read the first post in this thread.. so I know I'm four pages behind  :laughing7:
..I've been reading Deuteronomy, book of the law, and really enjoying it, when in the past, not so much.. It lets you know what God, our Father thinks about things.

The world not only judges Christians, and quite harshly (that fallen away from Christendom and spirit of anti-Christ operating) but also judges God!! They judge God because of the stonings of wrong-doers, without realizing aLL will be restored to life, and also that God was providing as pure a place as likely possible for Messiah Jesus to be born, for one thing.

Deuteronomy also lets us know what will not be in His Kingdom. Yes, some things are called abomination, being a harlot (or the less nice word is employed) for one.. But! What the world misses is all the kindheartedness of the law.. such us "do not glean your fields" or even glean the corners you miss, so the poor at the time and the widows, etc may harvest.

They judge Him for the wars against the Canaanite nations, and for what they call slavery. Not realizing it would not be kindness nor mercy to allow the practices of those nations to continue, harming many, and eventually destroying the world. And how the last straw with Him was their offering their babes alive in fire to their gods (which they were becoming like). And the 'slavery' they condemn God for was a borrowing, and working to repay system. And they are not aware of the regular jubilee years when all debts were forgiven. How things put forth as pledge, if it was one's cloak, be sure to return before nightfall for he will need his cloak.. But what I've been noticing most of all is how often during these commandments/laws given, He said -- "that it be well with you".

[Molly]

Don't kid yourself that much will have to change, Shawn.  It depends what part of the country you are from.  I already live in that place.

You are put in prison for what you believe?  You live in Iraq?

Do you go out of your way to not understand what I'm saying?

You said this:

"Will being a Christian become akin to being in the KKK?  I don't know.  But, I will say this, for your fears to become realized MUCH would have to change.  If that day comes, then that day comes.  I won't live in fear.  I will not keep my focus on these things.  What I will try to do is love God, my neighbor and speak truth in love.  If there comes a day when Christians are considered a hate group, banned..."

Hey, nevermind, ok?

[shawn]

Don't kid yourself that much will have to change, Shawn.  It depends what part of the country you are from.  I already live in that place.

You are put in prison for what you believe?  You live in Iraq?

Do you go out of your way to not understand what I'm saying?

You said this:

"Will being a Christian become akin to being in the KKK?  I don't know.  But, I will say this, for your fears to become realized MUCH would have to change.  If that day comes, then that day comes.  I won't live in fear.  I will not keep my focus on these things.  What I will try to do is love God, my neighbor and speak truth in love.  If there comes a day when Christians are considered a hate group, banned..."

Hey, nevermind, ok?

No, but you need to be more specific.  I mentioned several things.  I apologize that upset you. 

[Molly]

Hi! I've only read the first post in this thread.. so I know I'm four pages behind  :laughing7:
..I've been reading Deuteronomy, book of the law, and really enjoying it, when in the past, not so much.. It lets you know what God, our Father thinks about things.

The world not only judges Christians, and quite harshly (that fallen away from Christendom and spirit of anti-Christ operating) but also judges God!! They judge God because of the stonings of wrong-doers, without realizing aLL will be restored to life, and also that God was providing as pure a place as likely possible for Messiah Jesus to be born, for one thing.

Deuteronomy also lets us know what will not be in His Kingdom. Yes, some things are called abomination, being a harlot (or the less nice word is employed) for one.. But! What the world misses is all the kindheartedness of the law.. such us "do not glean your fields" or even glean the corners you miss, so the poor at the time and the widows, etc may harvest.

They judge Him for the wars against the Canaanite nations, and for what they call slavery. Not realizing it would not be kindness nor mercy to allow the practices of those nations to continue, harming many, and eventually destroying the world. And how the last straw with Him was their offering their babes alive in fire to their gods (which they were becoming like). And the 'slavery' they condemn God for was a borrowing, and working to repay system. And they are not aware of the regular jubilee years when all debts were forgiven. How things put forth as pledge, if it was one's cloak, be sure to return before nightfall for he will need his cloak.. But what I've been noticing most of all is how often during these commandments/laws given, He said -- "that it be well with you".

Spot on, Marie.  Someone called me up this week and announced, out of the blue, and just because they are aware that I love the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--'did you know he ordered the Israelites to kill all the Philistines? He likes killing people.'

Now, this isn't because they want to know anything about it--it is because they are trying to convince me that the God I love not only does not exist, he's nasty as all get out.

What is the point of that?  It's like constant harrassment.

[eaglesway]

we are still sacrificing babies to 'the fire' today. the fire is just our destructive lust for pleasure-putting pleasure above God. putting responsibility for our actions 'to death'. teaching our children that life is no longer precious and sexuality need not be married to responsibility and faithfulness- a short term experience of self satisfaction rather than a life long renewal of a covenant of love.

[Molly]

we are still sacrificing babies to 'the fire' today. the fire is just our destructive lust for pleasure-putting pleasure above God. putting responsibility for our actions 'to death'. teaching our children that life is no longer precious and sexuality need not be married to responsibility and faithfulness- a short term experience of self satisfaction rather than a life long renewal of a covenant of love.

Exactly.  well said.

[shawn]

we are still sacrificing babies to 'the fire' today. the fire is just our destructive lust for pleasure-putting pleasure above God. putting responsibility for our actions 'to death'. teaching our children that life is no longer precious and sexuality need not be married to responsibility and faithfulness- a short term experience of self satisfaction rather than a life long renewal of a covenant of love.

I agree.  Another thought about your reference to Jeremiah is Jesus referencing that in Matthew 23.

13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]

15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

Child of Gehenna, a reference to Jeremiah 19

and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind.

A child sacrificed to an idol.  In your point the lust for pleasure is an idol.  In Jesus' point, he was speaking to those who traveled land and sea, went to great lengths to win converts, only to bind them to the laws of men...the idol of religion.

[onlytruth]

Thanks jabcat for sharing your heart, you are a blessing to me , to us all,thanks for always listening!
I pray and hope we will all continue to listen to each other!
I pray the spirit leads and we all can rest and love again.
Iron sharpening iron,for God is in control , even this site
Blessings

[jabcat]

Thanks jabcat for sharing your heart, you are a blessing to me , to us all,thanks for always listening!
I pray and hope we will all continue to listen to each other!
I pray the spirit leads and we all can rest and love again.
Iron sharpening iron,for God is in control , even this site
Blessings

Trying to be quiet here for awhile Fred, but   :HeartThrob: :CryBaby:

[lomarah]

Thanks jabcat for sharing your heart, you are a blessing to me , to us all,thanks for always listening!
I pray and hope we will all continue to listen to each other!
I pray the spirit leads and we all can rest and love again.
Iron sharpening iron,for God is in control , even this site
Blessings

Trying to be quiet here for awhile Fred, but   :HeartThrob: :CryBaby:

Awwww don't even, you'll make me start hahaha.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[lomarah]

I ran across this from Willy Torrensin;

"People, who struggle and eventually give up, often have as their goal, the desire to be 'straight'.  This goal sets a person up for failure.  Failure doesn't mean that the Bible should be rewritten.  The true answer has always been in the scriptures.  Our goal is not to seek heterosexuality, and it never has been.  Our goal is to seek our God and to find the one who becomes our all.  When Jesus is the goal, he aligns us by his power to his Father's design for our lives.  His goal is not for us to find sexual perfection but to walk toward his holy perfection.  Holiness is his aim.

"I also discovered that God's love and grace were available for me as I learned to walk this new life, step by step, and day by day."

Amen, God is good.

I think he nailed it.

Awesome find jab!!  :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

 :gimmefive:

[jabcat]

Someone called me up this week and announced, out of the blue, and just because they are aware that I love the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--'did you know he ordered the Israelites to kill all the Philistines? He likes killing people.'

  It's like constant harrassment.

:(  I'm sorry.  Peace.

[CHB]

And Jab, we are all built different.  We are different instruments in Gods orchestra.

Thanks, yes, I agree with that - also, our own personalities, strengths and weaknesses.

More general comments now, the "you" I use isn't just "you", if you know what I mean.   I mean we/us, the church.  These comments are based on where I spend some time, and some things I personally see and experience.  Maybe not everyone will be exposed to all this - at least yet.  If I go into the mountains I dream about, or become the guitar-playing monk I kidded about... :bigGrin:
Or shut the computer off and "let it come to me".  I'll pray about that..maybe I shouldn't be involved in those discussions with the world so much.  Probably.  (Involved are also other professing believers, who actually condone the sins.)

I think  :laugh: I believe (pretty much) everything I've said.  Kind of coming full circle to my OP, where I said I spend time reading comments on news articles on different news sites, perhaps more than I should.  Regardless, doing so, I may be seeing some things that others aren't seeing so much of, or vice versa. I know one particular member has more guts than me, and actually spends time sharing in much tougher places than me.  I'm a light-weight.  Mostly an observer, interested in what people think.     

   Anyway, what I often see, especially regarding anything like a social/spiritual/cultural issue - even though pertinent, not as much about my direct interpersonal contacts, but "out there" - whether it's about a church congregation, other issues.  Right now just happens to be the hot topic being about homosexuality and homosexual marriage.  So I'm seeing a LOT of screaming at anyone - loving, pleasant, whatever - that states anything about the scriptures or God's will about one of the issues.  There may be 20 people "for" whatever sin is in question, and if one person gently says "Jesus said", etc., then the screaming of "not everyone believes in fairies in the sky", "you're spewing hate", "you Christians are intolerant", etc.   What I'm saying is, I believe a door is closing that only God will open at some point - I'm just not sure what will have to happen in the meantime, and how each of us might be affected.  Make no mistake. In the arenas I'm talking about now, if you even utters a simple scriptural statement, in certain of those conversations, you'll be vilified and hated for it.  If you have any sound scriptural beliefs at all that is different than "I accept not only you, but what you're doing", then you're the enemy, stupid, delusional, the Bible's outdated, you're incompetent, insane...  So my whole point in starting this was, I personally believe we've cowered under this, and may be in danger of putting our light under a bushel at times.

  Again, make no mistake - there's a tidal wave sweeping the country and I believe the world, that is for anything that's against God.  As I said, the push is toward even publicly stating something like  homosexuality (which again is the hot and virulent current topic - probably not a coincidence, as it's the next taboo to be broken down in a series of steps ["we wrestle  not against flesh and blood") then it will be a hate crime and against the law, with consequences of who knows what.  I'm 54, and I'm not positive I'll see it in my lifetime, but unless the Lord cuts the time short and intervenes, it will happen.  That's where we're headed.  If I weren't "out there" in those spots (and it's nothing exceptionally bizarre [Yahoo, MSNBC, Huffington Post, etc.] I probably wouldn't see it as much, and if so, it would be even easier to be lulled to sleep.  It's the put a frog in water and slowly heat it to boiling, and it doesn't even realize it's dying phenomena.    I guess I'm sort of sounding an alarm.  If I'm wrong, ignore me and pray for me.  But IMO, unless you're buying into the lie that if you disagree and stand for something different then you're a hater so you should just keep your mouth shut, then you are indeed hated and labeled as the enemy. Again, I'm not talking about going out and reading people the riot act and slamming them into hell - but more so if it hits us in the face, do we just be silent, or do we truly believe in speaking the truth in love?  Everyone must decide.

Blessings

Wow!! This was really good Jabcat.  :HeartThrob:

Just thinking, if the day comes in our life time that they lead us up to be tried for speaking out about what we believe to be right or wrong, I pray God gives me the guts to stick to what I believe is right and not back down or cower to anyone's threats. I'm afraid that day might come sooner than we think.

CHB