I'm interested in peoples' perceptions and beliefs, and probably more than I should, I often read peoples' comments following news articles. I've been made painfully aware of seemingly subtle, but actually drastic changes in society, including within the church. I truly belive something sinister is at work, that it's a spiritual struggle, a "wrestling not with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities in high places". I believe one of the biggest tools being used is (of course) a lie. Someone said, tell a lie often enough and people will eventually start to believe it. IMO, the lie is this; IF YOU DISAGREE WITH SOMETHING; IF YOU BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT SOMETHING; THEN YOU HATE. You not only don't love, but you are a "HATER", a "hypocrite", a "pharisee". You're "hate-filled". An attachment to that big lie is, as used against Christians on the blogs and article comment sections, is an out-of-context "your religion says do not judge". I believe by constantly labeling concern, Godly belief, and a willingness to speak the truth - even IN LOVE - as hate and judging, we are succumbing, rolling over, giving in, being neutered - thus taking much of the standard of right and wrong out of things. The result is, as the scriptures say, "everyone doing what is right in their own eyes", and "trading the truth for a lie", and "calling evil good and good evil".
As far as resisting this and actively applying love in the scriptural way - speaking the truth in love, going to a brother to "pull him out of the fire" as Paul instructed - I personally probably err on the side of caution - or a better word, wimpiness. I'm scared. I don't want to offend. I don't want to be seen as "intolerant", a "basher", or having a "phobia", or even "dangerous" as I've heard it described. Do you know that publicly reading or posting I Corinthians 6, or Romans 1 is considered by many to be "hate speech"? And that there is a push to outlaw such things? I also don't want to be called a hypocrite because I have my own besetting sins and problems (although I realize that my inability to always do what God wants, doesn't invalidate what He wants).
I fall WAY short. I'm probably worse about it than many/most. But as a precept, and something which to aspire, is it possible that true Godly love actually doesn't accept everyone and everything they're doing, but rather out of concern, is open for a leading of God to say "Jesus loves you, He wants to save us and deliver us from the things that hurt us and hurt Him. He died for our sins. Would you care for me to pray with you"? I'm not talking about rejecting or condemning of any person, being cruel, telling them they're terrible, etc, etc. I'm talking about being led by the Spirit, being willing to look at the hard issues that THE BIBLE CLEARLY POINT OUT TO US, and being willing to be HELPFUL by being used by the Spirit to help, rather than even approach what many are doing (such as the "affirming" churches, "inclusive" churches) potentially doing more harm than good?
Our love isn't what saves, it's His. He may just go after a person directly, or, I believe He may see fit to use us, as we're willing to be an instrument of HIS love, pointing them to the One that does save. I don't know exactly how to do this. But is it possible that it's something to consider? I do believe it's like watch/pray said recently, living and abiding in Him. But doesn't that involve my not fighting against Him by my own stubborn beliefs - WHATEVER those might be - and following Him in every way possible [being open to and seeking the whole counsel of God, not focusing on only one aspect and blocking out the rest]? Maybe others have Spirit-revealed, scripturally sound input that would help me/us to get better at it? Also, as part of the process, isn't it worth being aware that just because the world defines love and hate in certain ways, doesn't make that so for the sons of God?
Blessings.
Loved your post, Jab. We are not the ones who judge, it is God's word that judges. But, if we are afraid to use God's word, and use our own, instead, I believe we not only anger God, but we bear a false witness. I'm thinking along the lines of the two witnesses of the last 3.5 years being God's church that speaks his words to a world which definitely does not want to hear it. That is the fire that comes out of their mouths. I was just reading this passage:
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
--Jer 23
...therefore judge nothing..wait til the appointed time;wait til the Lord comes. He will bring to light
what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts.At that time each will
receive his praise from God..
and as far as Jeremiah goes...were all guilty of that..for He called us out of Babylon where we were preaching
eternal condemnation/torture on most men.Of which He has so informed us is a lie..saying 'God' saith"
false prophets indeed..teaching traditions of men and doctrines of demons.
Quote from: sheila on March 30, 2013, 01:48:40 AM
...therefore judge nothing..wait til the appointed time;wait til the Lord comes. He will bring to light
what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts.At that time each will
Hi Sheila. What do you think this means? Do you think it means "say nothing"? Or as I was trying to point out in the OP (and other places), that there's a difference between judging people and addressing issues (in love - I have to say that, or some will jump on it haha)?
I think of a time recently when you confronted a poster that he had a spirit of homosexuality, and attempted [helpful, I'm sure] correction of him. I think I know the answer to this, but for purposes of discussion/clarification; Were you judging him["before his time"] and condeming him/hating him, or were you acting out of true Godly love, which is speaking the truth and trying to help him? Blessings.
I never preached those things, Sheila, nor believed them.
But, Jab is talking about parts of God's word being called hate speech by some and that is because they do not want to hear it. It is God's word that condemns and judges them. It is God's word that becomes a fire and a hammer to them. This same fire hedges in God's church in the last 3.5 years, I'm thinking. And, the world will rejoice when they are 'dead.'
You may answer all this in your response sheila, but as Molly just said, "I'm thinking" too :Chinscratch: :laugh:
"Judge nothing before its time" - scripture
"Do not judge lest you be judged" - scripture
Get the beam out your own eye first" - scripture
"Can't you even judge the simple matters? I say this to shame you" - scripture
"I turned the man over to satan [due to his sin]" - scripture
"[If anyone's a believer and does such things (sin/deception/etc.)] don't even eat (fellowship) with such a one" - scripture
"Speak the truth in love" - scripture
"Go to your brother and talk with him [paraphrase] and so doing, pull him out of the fire" - scripture
These things must reconcile somehow, rather than contradict. I'm thinking, but I don't believe this means roll over, accept anything and everything as OK, don't ever say a word - no matter what the scriptures say about it. The pieces must fit somehow.
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 01:12:13 AM
Loved your post, Jab. We are not the ones who judge, it is God's word that judges. But, if we are afraid to use God's word, and use our own, instead, I believe we not only anger God, but we bear a false witness. I'm thinking along the lines of the two witnesses of the last 3.5 years being God's church that speaks his words to a world which definitely does not want to hear it. That is the fire that comes out of their mouths. I was just reading this passage:
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
--Jer 23
Yes, Jabcat I really appreciate the thought-provoking (maybe should say "prayer-provoking; further study-provoking) post.
Molly, as always you bring such great Scriptures to the "table"... my immediate response to the Jeremiah quote was... Oh my, I can use that Scripture to support my current opinion regarding "spiritual abortions"... Forgive me, this will be sketchy.. I'm on borrowed time so to speak. Limited time on the Internet...
Anyway, reading Matt 18:6 and Mark 9:42, has caused me to be very careful how I use, speak God's written word... I believe the little ones Jesus is referring to are newly-born again believers... I'm particularly concerned about what I post to any Christian forum... so many guests (perhaps many newly-born again believers)
I also factor into my current opinion about "spiritual abortions".... word is the seed... (Luke 8:11; Matt 13:19-23) I really need further study...
Thanks, blessings to all posting here. Some really excellent thoughts and scripture. Thank you.
watch/pray, while you were typing "prayer-provoking; further prayer-provoking", I was looking for some way to reconcile that list of scriptures above re: judging/not judging. This found me, and I think it hits some very crucial points, including stepping on my toes as often being a hypocrite - afraid to speak up - IN LOVE :).
Should Christians judge? Jesus commanded men to judge rightly and He told them to "judge not." Did the Lord contradict Himself? Or does the Bible say more about judging than Christians are generally taught?
Don't judge? But Jesus repeatedly taught men to judge rightly, insisting they "judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24) and He praised a man who "rightly judged" (Luke 7:43). Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to "judge the smallest matters" (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, "He who is spiritual judges all things" for "we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:15-16).
Where did we get the notion that men should never judge? Should child-molesters escape condemnation? Should rapists be free from criticism? Should society refrain from judging those arrested for murder? Why would anyone judge others for judging? And if a pastor teaches "don't judge" regarding abortion and homosexuality, what would he say about a parishioner who doesn't donate but rather takes money out of the collection plate?
A lie has partially paralyzed the church. God warns against "hypocrisy" commanding men to "abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9). Yet to abhor evil, someone must first judge evil. Thus, unable to judge, large numbers of Christians become hypocrites by obeying the Hypocrites Golden Rule. Since the hypocrite doesn't want to be judged, he judges not, as Jesus said, "Judge not... you hypocrite" (Mat. 7:1, 5 KJV; Ezek. 16:52). For "judge not" (Mat. 7:1-5) is simply a hypocrites application of do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Mat. 7:12). "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged" (Mat. 7:2). Judge others as you would have them do unto you inverted is Judge not if you do not want to be judged.
Christ kept repeating this theme in His ministry. "Hypocrites," Jesus said, "why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?" (Luke 12:56-57). Still, His own followers have mostly ignored the Lord's harsh rebuke: "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to [judge, i.e., to] remove the speck out of your brother's eye" (Mat. 7:5). "Judge Not" is the Hypocritical Oath.
Hollywood, Hillary, and Homosexuals repeat the phrase like a mantra, judge not, judge not, judge not, until the masses are mesmerized. Jesus did not intend this.
Scripture deals with topics that range from simple to advanced truth. Milk is for babes in Christ; meat is for men of God. The question of whether or not Christians should judge is milk. It is preschool. The newest believer taught any of a hundred passages would immediately understand that he must judge. Judging others is fundamental. It is not a difficult concept and should in no way be controversial.
The Church today is lactose intolerant and has trouble even with milk.
Extreme ignorance of the Bible has crippled the Church. Today, many believers are effectively saying, "Lord, thanks but no thanks. I'll pass on that judgment duty." But Paul responds, Start judging now, because you will need the practice (1Cor. 6:2-5). Remember, "He who is spiritual judges all things. For... we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:15-16). For as the King James Version quotes Jesus, "ye... have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done" (Mat. 23:23). And God will reward those who judge, and do the hard work: "Those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them." (Prov. 24:25).
Bob Enyart
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 02:00:21 AM
Iparts of God's word being called hate speech by some and that is because they do not want to hear it. It is God's word that condemns and judges them. It is God's word that becomes a fire and a hammer to them. This same fire hedges in God's church in the last 3.5 years, I'm thinking. And, the world will rejoice when they are 'dead.'
Very thought-provoking. Jesus Himself said it's His Words that condemn. That hurts our flesh, it cuts us - cuts us asunder, separating parts of us. Who wants to hear it? Yet Paul said don't despise the Lord's discipline. As a dear sister recently said, if not for that, He says we'd be bastards and not sons.
Hey Jab....I think He will weigh heart motive of everyone in this matter. He will know if it is dealt with in love.
He will also know a homosexual's heart motive,too.He will also discern a heart of contmpt,arrogance
and religious pride.
It is true religious Babylon has been a hater..and
due to this..people are in general sick of the wars,persecutions and bloody battles fought in the name of
'God' their sick of it..the hypocrisy,exclusivity..condemnation..arrogance etc. by holier than thou types
there will be no boasting in the flesh of any men..that includes the 'elect'
Molly
then you are a very rare example............and babylon is infiltrated into things more then you know.
there are two baskets of figs..one basket was sent off to Babylon and one wasn't[nothing personal-
just showing what's in the scriptures]
yeah I know..but Paul saw through a glass darkly..and Jesus didn't. Jesus also ate with sinners....
and was found fault with for doing it,by Pharisee types.
I will take Jesus above any other if they appear a conflict..for God said 'This is my son,listen to Him..
in him I am well pleased.". two wittnesses God and Jesus .
those that speak truth in love..God will know..those that don't God will know.
Stop judging by mere appearances..is God counting men's sin against them or not..did Jesus pay
the penalty of sin in flesh or not. is it grace or law? that matter was Jesus healing on the Sabbath
a man....you could be circumcized on the Sabbath..to keep the law..but what about grace,could you
break the sabbath to heal man...or do a good work...... they were judging by mere appearances.
Everybody needs to do a google search on that Bob Enyart.........he's reading homosexual men's
obit's on the radio and calling them 'sodomites' and really hurting their families. Got himself a radio
show.
The thing which usually stikes me when we talk about perceptions is that we really don't know. Quite a few years ago now, I was walking back to my car from a restaurant, when I was approaced by a man. He said he noticed that I was carrying a Bible (I was reading it during dinner). He asked if I was a Christian. I said I was. He asked me ... 'could you pray for me'. I stood next to him and he bowed his head, and I prayed what I was lead to say. When it was over he said amen, smiled, and thanked me. I never saw him again. I've had people come up to me in restaurants, coffee shops, bus stops, at work etc. They usually ask something about the Bible I'm carrying, or they overheard me say something to someone else, and then they move on. I ask God to take care of them, and then I move on. Sometimes God will put them on my heart, and ask me to pray for them. Sometimes this happens at the weirdest times. But I think part of that is God telling me He is still looking after them. I was with them for five minutes, He is with them always. I can't honestly say I care who thinks I'm what ... God thinks I'm fine, and sometimes asks me to spend some time with someone.
I also find it interesting the Paul wrote his letters to churches, not governments, not the committee to do this and that, or to any city council. I think he got that when the church is okay, people come to it, because they see it has something they need. I think once we stop acting like the world, the world sees the difference. Some of them will want to get rid of us. That's okay. Some of them will want to destroy us. That's okay. As long as we don't return in kind. Some of them hate us. That's okay as long as we don't hate them. I think it's okay to let them destroy, as long as we don't destroy. Let them be violent to us, as long as we don't return the violence.
IMO it might be best for us to reflect God, and it matters not who hates us, or calls us names, or destroys what we do. It doesn't matter what they think or do.
Vine's :2c:
Thanks Vine and sheila. It's not always simple, is it?
sheila, I usually check out the person/their history before I post something someone wrote. I would have a real problem with what you just said about him. But aren't we then judging him? LOL He may be obnoxious, I don't know...but are the scriptures he quoted false? Also, I believe he makes good points - even if he were to be a cracked vessel. :footmouth:
Thanks for kicking this around in depth with me sheila. I think it's important things, and maybe we can do it as friends/brother/sister and it will be fruitful. I find it interesting what you say about taking Jesus over Paul. Do you believe some of Paul's writings suspect then? I'm of the belief that even though much of it I don't understand or am able to apply to my own life, the same Holy Spirit was speaking through Paul that spoke through Jesus - thus, there's a consistency, a reconciliation of the scriptures, not one author/Author over another - and we just don't always rightly divide it. :2c: For instance, just for consideration; Jesus' ministry may have presented some different goals, circumstances, timing than Paul's? Him eating with sinners, and Paul saying to judge correctly in that matter and not do so, IMO can't contradict - it's just that there's something there we're not "getting" a perfect handle on., etc. Maybe mixing some things together when they need instead to be rightly divided?
As far as Law and grace. I personally believe the scriptures about those things are about salvation, the spiritual new birth which is by grace, not by the works of the Law. Assuming that's the case, I'm not sure what that has to do with all the other admonitions about - let me use an old, probably detestable term to some - Godly, righteous living (walking according to the Spirit, not after the flesh). Just because we're saved and kept by grace, does that nullify all the other instructions, admonitions, even warnings in the scriptures? I don't think so, what are your thoughts? Thanks, blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on March 30, 2013, 03:28:45 AM
Just because we're saved and kept by grace, does that nullify all the other instructions, admonitions, even warnings in the scriptures? I don't think so, what are your thoughts? Thanks, blessings.
In one sense, yes. I think we live by grace through faith, and one of the gifts that presents is a lack of guilt. Although, the modern church tries to give that back, it does so for its own agendae. When we are saved, and we know it, something happens. I love knowing I am changed from glory to glory; anyone reading my first few posts will see the changes this place has brought about in me.
Those laws and admonishments are still there, but it is our desire to please God which means they aren't done, not our trying to not do them. I find the closer I get to God, the less things stay the same. I also find that some things haven't been done for a long time. I'ld rather be hanging out with God, so those other former things don't get done. Because I would rather be holding onto my Father's hand, I don't do some things which would involve me having to let go. I still do, but, it seems not as much. I think the best expression is 'fall away'. I wind up not doing a lot of those things, because as I walk with God, those things fall away. I don't remove them. Again, God does it ... not doing those things is a gift as well. God is perfecting me ... All On His Own.
Quote from: VineBranch on March 30, 2013, 03:52:22 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 30, 2013, 03:28:45 AM
Just because we're saved and kept by grace, does that nullify all the other instructions, admonitions, even warnings in the scriptures? I don't think so, what are your thoughts? Thanks, blessings.
In one sense, yes. I think we live by grace through faith, and one of the gifts that presents is a lack of guilt. Although, the modern church tries to give that back, it does so for its own agendae. When we are saved, and we know it, something happens. I love knowing I am changed from glory to glory; anyone reading my first few posts will see the changes this place has brought about in me.
Those laws and admonishments are still there, but it is our desire to please God which means they aren't done, not our trying to not do them. I find the closer I get to God, the less things stay the same. I also find that some things haven't been done for a long time. I'ld rather be hanging out with God, so those other former things don't get done. Because I would rather be holding onto my Father's hand, I don't do some things which would involve me having to let go. I still do, but, it seems not as much. I think the best expression is 'fall away'. I wind up not doing a lot of those things, because as I walk with God, those things fall away. I don't remove them. Again, God does it ... not doing those things is a gift as well. God is perfecting me ... All On His Own.
Oh my, I was replying to your earlier post... to thank you for such a loving, simple exhortation... but then you post this one and you said in eight words what it would have taken me several paragraphs
God is perfecting me ... All on His own. He does use the written word to
"discipline" me... (Abide in Word, then you are my
disciples, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free John 8:31-32)
Hi Jab, not that I 'suspect' it..just that I discern I am to follow Jesus..not Paul. It has been my habit
when things seem to not reconcile..to go with Jesus words.
Jab,you know I don't condone homosexuality,don't you? I'm with you..love is the way.
I have prayer requests in action on this matter for all of us.
I leave the matter in His capable hands. If judgement come...restoration will follow..
p.s. I think it's very important,too Jab..
:dontknow: :laugh:
You bring up some interesting points VB, much - maybe all - that I agree with.
You know what's coming next - however lol - several things come to mind.
One is, yes, we're personally only changed by God, from the inside out. I can't change you, you can't change me. No matter how much I scream eating too much pizza is wrong, people are still going to eat too much pizza. In my weak moments, me too.
Yet - looking at how the early church functioned - not just the modern church for its own agendae (not letting them/us off the hook, just sayin'), there are still many scriptural guidelines. Paul gave them warnings even. What do you think those were for, if not to instruct us and to act as some clear guidelines for human behavior? (maybe multiple reasons).
I think it's a dilemma - one I obviously don't fully understand. I like extremes typically only to make a point, and for it to identified as an extreme. So for the sake of seeking understanding/clarification, and hopefully finding what's "sound doctrine" in the middle; It seems the extremes of this are, 1. "accept everything and everyone. Doesn't matter if you're a murderer, a Muslim, a satanist. God's got all this worked out, relax, enjoy what He did on the cross - or not, because again, it doesn't matter. Believe nothing, God doesn't care. I love you, we're buddies (pat on head)". 2. Be totally sin conscious, drive yourself and everyone around you crazy trying to be perfect, acceptable to God, and justify yourself on your own by doing works.
Seems to me, in the middle somewhere is this; look to Jesus, trust God, know He's the Savior, not ourselves. Be aware of what's going on around us, be willing to say "that's not what I understand the scriptures to say. Here's what I understand". And doing all of it in love, with a view to reconciliation. It's the nuts and bolts of that that IMO, can be elusive. :2c:
I saw that sheila before you got it out. WHAAAATT???? :LH:
Just today I went and talked to a family member about something that they were having difficulty with. I saw it as a kind of rescue. My perspective is, if you see someone drowning, do everything you can to throw them a life line. If that means trying to point them in the right direction that will help them then to me that is showing/giving that person love. If I just stood by and watched that person drown without lifting a finger I wouldn't be able to live with myself and no one else would either. In what way would I be showing the most love, saving someone from drowning, harm, physically or spiritually or just stand by and wave or do nothing as they sank lower and lower?
I think the love of many has waxed cold.
CHB
Sheila, are you saying I'm in the wrong basket of figs? I'll try not to take that personally. :laugh:
The difference between us and Jesus is that he could read minds. He knew who he was talking to and he knew the right way to talk to them and heal them. We don't. What I'm thinking about the end time church is not that they will be singling anyone out personally, but that they will be preaching God's word unabashedly to the world in general. This doesn't mean their own words, this means God's word, right out of the Bible. This, as you might have noticed, is being more and more frowned upon, even within the church, as 'legalism.'
Time will be short, and it will be kind of a last chance, last call to God before the end of the age.
Here's a simple question that cuts to the heart of the issue (for me).
Let's say I started a thread on here that said "I've had an enlightened understanding. God is OK if we murder other people. So everyone go right ahead, it's all taken care of. If somebody's been bothering you lately, kill 'em".
I know that lends itself to a lot of jokes :). But seriously, how would you react?
I believe ,what we understand in our minds is being transferred to our hearts.We changed from a Jewish religious system when Jesus showed up.Noone understood him and they wanted the revelation but it wasn't given to all( only those in their time)
I believe we are asking the same questions now and we will have the revelation given to us as we enter this new age
New wine skins ....and we are slowly getting glimpses
So let's continue to encourage each other
Blessings
Sheila I loved your post, beautiful. :HeartThrob:
Molly I too believe that the time is coming when His people will boldly be declaring His Word. The difference is I see them declaring the God breathed Word. The Word specifically spoken to them to give to people. This is where the significant difference is. People have been quoting the bible for centuries. Millions have been tortured, murdered, shunned, persecuted, all under the name of "God" and "Jesus". They are not in the truth. The Pharisees quoted the scriptures day after day. They knew them by heart. Still they were not in the truth. To quote a scripture at someone, to tell someone they are wrong... is very often not in the truth. This is not being led by the Spirit. (Unless the Lord has specifically called you to do so.) In my opinion a good thing for all of us to do is to put away our soap boxes and get into our quiet places and wait on the Lord until we are changed, until we can hear Him speaking to us. THEN we will be equipped to help those in need. When the Lord has been able to remove our planks, THEN we will be able to be used by Him to help remove their specks.
Then we will be led by peace. Then we will be led by love. Then they will see the love of our Father and be changed even as we were.
And then we will have the God given ability, like Jesus, to know what a person is suffering from, as the Lord reveals it to us in order that He may use us, His body, to help free them from it.
THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL THE WORLD SEE REAL CHANGE!!
the law is becoming obsolete...being replaced with the spirit of love. there is no law against love.
love never fails...the law does not make perfect.
we all need to know and beleive foremost that God loves us..and as we see that love expressed to us
we can learn to love[we love because God loved us first] to be pateint,kind,not keep record of the offense
etc..love grows..love heals..love restores..love is as strong as death.
sorry Molly :laugh:you know I love you,I hope
the saints were overcome,prophesied in Daniel...the exposing of Catholic preist homosexuality
and pediphilia..to corrupt money matters..to preachers and prostitutes that has been on open display
is revealed.. After the dashing of the power of the saints..the Court will sit[remeber Jesus said,destroy
this temple and I will raise it on the third day/His body] then the Kingdom will be given unto the saints.
why would God allow this[the gates of hell will not prevail against it]...for the same reason Israel
rejecting Jesus opened up the way for the gentiles to enter[beleivers] no flesh shall boast and the
kingdom shall be like leaven in flour....if beleivers[saints] overcome..then grace extends even more
to include unbeleivers in this life.saved of grace..the free gift of eternal life. The spirit without measure.
evidence the saints were overcome=a house divided against itself can not stand[all the sects,denominations]
Is it lawful to kill on the Sabbath,or to heal.?
the Salvation of All men is the Glory of God....Jesus is coming to work a great deliverance of mankind
every knee shall bow..and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord
We don't have to re-invent the wheel. God has spoken. His word is the law-word. We cannot disentangle His judgements from interpermeating all things. We are either aligned with God's law-word and are blessed or we suffer the consequences of going astray, of going our own way. The less people know about what God's will is as revealed in His word, the more they tend to go astray, producing destruction and misery in the wake of their lives. God answered so very many of my questions by sitting me down and having me open His Scripture. This is in the context that Jesus, dwelling within us by the Holy Spirit, is that law-word manifesting alive. Jesus' flesh was raised out of death and He ascended to the throne that is over all, The Mercy Throne, from whence He sends Himself as Spirit into us to quicken to life according to His written word, even as we have seen.
:thumbsup: ref.
Any response to my question about my new enlightenment about murder Lomarah? Or maybe you prefer to ignore my "soapbox"? :laugh:.
How would you personally know whether or not my murder enlightenment was of God?
(P.S. People quoting scripture to hurt people and gain power, you're right, that's not of God. But there's nothing wrong with the scriptures, right?)
Quote from: onlytruth on March 30, 2013, 04:48:29 AM
I believe ,what we understand in our minds is being transferred to our hearts.We changed from a Jewish religious system when Jesus showed up.Noone understood him and they wanted the revelation but it wasn't given to all( only those in their time)
I believe we are asking the same questions now and we will have the revelation given to us as we enter this new age
New wine skins ....and we are slowly getting glimpses
So let's continue to encourage each other
Blessings
Great post Fred. :thumbsup:
wellJab,Christendom/babylon has been saying that for millinea...kill the heretics..etc.they are witches infidels
nothing new under the sun
I wonder if Jesus didn't use the fact that he ate with sinners to teach them things? I also wonder just what kind of sinners he ate with? We are all considered sinners, these may have been just the everyday joe of that time.
I do see that the world which includes Christian leaders and Churches have become more and more accepting of things that the Bible condems. Everyone is looking the other way, we can't say much against anything, if we do we are considered a meddler, raciest, bigot, showing any love, or being disrespectful.
I wonder how many of the things that get pushed under the rug now will be destroyed by fire? If it is something that has to be destroyed by fire, doesn't that mean that it is wrong? What is so bad about saying something is wrong?
Just my thoughts.
CHB
Quote from: sheila on March 30, 2013, 05:16:03 AM
wellJab,Christendom/babylon has been saying that for millinea...kill the heretics..etc.they are witches infidels
nothing new under the sun
I think I can gather that you don't think that makes it right. (Play along. :laughing7:) My enlightenment is new, because I have a new understanding of the scriptures - in fact, they don't really matter. It's a "new thing" and I'm speaking that word. (for anyone just passing through, I'm playing the "adversary's advocate" for discussion purposes. Don't quote me. :laugh:)
Excellent, C.
Quote from: jabcat on March 30, 2013, 04:47:12 AM
Here's a simple question that cuts to the heart of the issue (for me).
Let's say I started a thread on here that said "I've had an enlightened understanding. God is OK if we murder other people. So everyone go right ahead, it's all taken care of. If somebody's been bothering you lately, kill 'em".
I know that lends itself to a lot of jokes :). But seriously, how would you react?
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 04:16:30 AM
Just today I went and talked to a family member about something that they were having difficulty with. I saw it as a kind of rescue. My perspective is, if you see someone drowning, do everything you can to throw them a life line. If that means trying to point them in the right direction that will help them then to me that is showing/giving that person love. If I just stood by and watched that person drown without lifting a finger I wouldn't be able to live with myself and no one else would either. In what way would I be showing the most love, saving someone from drowning, harm, physically or spiritually or just stand by and wave or do nothing as they sank lower and lower?
I think the love of many has waxed cold.
CHB
The difficulty I have with these examples is that they are something which I think sets one up if one answers them. I don't think the examples are fair. If I don't help someone who is drowning, I am a looser, and probably culpable in some areas. If I condone murder, then I have a credibility issue looming. In my experience those are not the realities of most people. IMO although they make for dramatic examples, they are just that ... drama.
I have found that most of the time, we are making decisions about the things which matter to people on a daily basis. My brother tells me he's gay, and has been dating my friend from high school for a year: what is my reaction? My mother tells me she stole all my savings in my room and spent it on gaming tickets at the VFW hall, and the four thousand dollars is gone: what is my reaction. I just watched someone slap a child multiple times at the mall: what is my reaction? A drunk man sits down at my table in the food court and wants the rest of your lunch: what is my reaction? Ten minutes after giving a panhandler a 10 dollar bill, I see him emerging from a store with two bottles of cheap wine: what is my reaction?
In my world, these are the examples we face on a daily basis. I respectfully submit, they may be the issues addressed.
Nope, not just drama. The way the question is asked, I believe, is actually pertinent. I can change the sin if you want - OK, change it to adultery, and say I started a thread saying it's OK, I'm enlightened on it, go for it.
Yep put the soapbox away and get in the closet jab. :LH:
I hope nobody takes anything I'm saying personally because I mean it for all of us as a whole body, myself included.
In regards to your question jab, I take no advice or "new enlightenment" from any man (EXCEPT for those the Lord has set over me, as ordained by HIM and even then I go to Him for verification). I presume your answer is, I go to the scriptures and see what they say. Well here is the problem. The scriptures say:
QuoteKill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
David speaks of bashing infants heads against rocks. Elisha made bears eat a bunch of youths. Etc, etc. The Bible is FULL of killing. Here is what I am saying... unless we know the Lord, unless we have communion with Him in the Spirit we will never understand what the scriptures are testifying to (Jesus and the Kingdom!!). We will misunderstand and misrepresent the very things we claim to understand and represent: our loving Father. :2c:
:sigh: I wrote that before I saw you changed it to adultery... you people are too fast for me lol.
My answer is the same though. I take no new enlightenment from anyone. I seek the Lord in all things. He makes clear the truth. :HeartThrob:
Men are not content to abandon God's law. They set themselves up as the standard and the law giver. In the history of humankind there has not been gay marriage, even among those Israel drove out before them as they possessed the land, for whom funeral and fertility ritual was combined, the whole family, with the corpse and animals too...but, no homosexual marriage. 3 of the 4 world empires depicted by the statue with the head of Gold in Daniel were run by eunuchs, but they didn't marry each other. Roman nobility often castrated their sons to assure them better positions in the bureaucracy of the world into which Messiah was born...but no homosexual marriage. The Roman husband, head of his family may have boy friends and prefer his eunuch to his wife...but there was no homosexual marriage. We don't have to be very enlightened to see who has the problem here. Yet Christians are supposed to be the bigoted hate mongers?
Quote from: VineBranch on March 30, 2013, 05:25:08 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 30, 2013, 04:47:12 AM
Here's a simple question that cuts to the heart of the issue (for me).
Let's say I started a thread on here that said "I've had an enlightened understanding. God is OK if we murder other people. So everyone go right ahead, it's all taken care of. If somebody's been bothering you lately, kill 'em".
I know that lends itself to a lot of jokes :). But seriously, how would you react?
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 04:16:30 AM
Just today I went and talked to a family member about something that they were having difficulty with. I saw it as a kind of rescue. My perspective is, if you see someone drowning, do everything you can to throw them a life line. If that means trying to point them in the right direction that will help them then to me that is showing/giving that person love. If I just stood by and watched that person drown without lifting a finger I wouldn't be able to live with myself and no one else would either. In what way would I be showing the most love, saving someone from drowning, harm, physically or spiritually or just stand by and wave or do nothing as they sank lower and lower?
I think the love of many has waxed cold.
CHB
The difficulty I have with these examples is that they are something which I think sets one up if one answers them. I don't think the examples are fair. If I don't help someone who is drowning, I am a looser, and probably culpable in some areas. If I condone murder, then I have a credibility issue looming. In my experience those are not the realities of most people. IMO although they make for dramatic examples, they are just that ... drama.
I have found that most of the time, we are making decisions about the things which matter to people on a daily basis. My brother tells me he's gay, and has been dating my friend from high school for a year: what is my reaction? My mother tells me she stole all my savings in my room and spent it on gaming tickets at the VFW hall, and the four thousand dollars is gone: what is my reaction. I just watched someone slap a child multiple times at the mall: what is my reaction? A drunk man sits down at my table in the food court and wants the rest of your lunch: what is my reaction? Ten minutes after giving a panhandler a 10 dollar bill, I see him emerging from a store with two bottles of cheap wine: what is my reaction?
In my world, these are the examples we face on a daily basis. I respectfully submit, they may be the issues addressed.
I am curious, what would your reaction be? Yep, the whole world is a stage and we all have a part to play.
CHB
Lo, I only changed it, because IMO, it represents ANY sin. The particular sin is not the issue. It's whether we just "love 'em", or do we as believers ever have anything to say - in love. Or, is that just hate, actually believing what the scriptures say and sharing it - WHEN LED and in the right spirit and attitude? That's what the world is saying, trying to disarm and neuter us. Is it working? Are we believing the lie that I Cor. 6 and Romans 1 and many other verses are hate speech?
Really funny first couple of lines. :spank: :laugh:
Alright, let's dig. You said; "unless we have communion with Him in the Spirit we will never understand what the scriptures are testifying to (Jesus and the Kingdom!!). We will misunderstand and misrepresent the very things we claim to understand and represent: our loving Father." Yes, absolutely.
Then what about the kingdom? Paul said if we do such things as he mentioned in detail, we won't inherit it.
Also, all those scrips you use? I'm sure those have been used through the ages to persecute people. But you don't really think that's what at issue in these discussions - really, do you? Nah. Here's what I see out on the blogs and the general public's comments - often against Christians, and people who present scriptural views on a topic, even when done in the greatest gentleness and love. They bring up those very same type of scriptures - out of context of the whole of the scriptures, not rightly dividing them, not having the Spirit to interpret them for them - and they slam, bash, accuse, and attempt to disable Christians and sound scriptural beliefs, with those out of context, misunderstood scriptures. The big one I see is "you don't follow Leviticus. What about shellfish"? :doh: So my issue is, I'm not talking about the world who can't grasp the things of God (the natural man can't). Do we, as believers, the salt and light - stand by and not say a word, and just pray and "love"? Ignore the issues altogether? (there've been times I willfully do, just tuning it out, and I said earlier, maybe I should more so). Or, if the Spirit prompts us, given that we firstly know what the scriptures say and believe and respect them, add something to the conversation from that perspective?
The question has many possible answers. It's to get us to think. I'm thinking too, I really am. Maybe I should become a hermit, a married monk-like fellow. I can play guitar. I like natural living. :laughing7: You answered how you'd know if I was telling the truth..you'd take it to the Lord. Awesome. Would you also consider what the scriptures specifically say about murder, adultery, etc.? Further, what about the part of my telling others it was OK, teaching them and encouraging them to do it? That's really the main part of the question, as it ties into this thread.
:handshake:
(of course, there's no course requirement for anyone to participate here. *I go through periods of time where I deliberately refrain from posting, but with this thread, I'm asking questions and exploring things that interest me. thanks and blessings all).
Yeah that's what I mean jab when I say we need to be led by the Spirit. If the Spirit leads, do whatever He's telling you to!! If He is NOT leading, do nothing! If you are unsure, run to a closet (LOL :banana: ) and pray til you ARE sure!
It is not the fact of a sin being a sin that is not okay in my eyes. It is when the pot is calling the kettle black, with no love for the kettle whatsoever. It is the "YOU ARE WRONG, HOMOSEXUALS! HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN!" attitude, the calling something wrong "because the Bible says so" attitude. If there's no love there, if there is no leading by the Spirit of LOVE then we are not just sounding like a clanging gong and cymbal, we are also turning them away from even wanting anything to do with God or the Bible. (See the video.)
And actually, going back to the video, why don't we take an example from God Himself who did not go around preaching to Willie, but who assured him of His love time and time again until he was so sure of it and filled with it that he was changed from the inside out.
I feel like we've all beaten this horse to death over and over and over again. My two cents: seek the Lord on it and in all things. Every situation and circumstance and person are different and only He will know what to do with it. And above all else, love.
Goodnight. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: lomarah
It is the "YOU ARE WRONG, HOMOSEXUALS! HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN!" attitude, the calling something wrong "because the Bible says so" attitude.
Are you saying homosexuality is ok and not a sin? Also, why not call something wrong because the Bible says so? The Bible is the one thing we have to go by to prove what is wrong and right.
CHB
Quote from: ReformerIn the history of humankind there has not been...
That alone should tell us the times we are in--there is something new under the sun. I think it's more about boundaries being pushed and if no one pushes back, they just go farther and farther until they are stopped by God.
It says in the end times, the man of perdition will wear out the saints of the most high. To me, that means, exhaust them emotionally, probably by crossing every boundary God says not to cross. It's not like God just makes up random laws to amuse himself, as some like to imply, --he is giving us rules to live by that will save our lives and give us peace, happiness, and salvation.
But, now, at the end of the age, I believe we are to just call to those last ones who belong in the ark, to enter it. And, to give a witness to a world that will not listen this time around.
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
I think much of the antimosity that we feel as believers is old baggage. When Christians have pointed at the world, declaring from the roof tops about the evil of their neighbor, all while harboring their own sin...and preaching hell...then I can understand why Christians get the stink eye from non believers.
Why are we accused of hating? Because we have hated.
Why are we accused of being hypocrites? Because we have been hypocritical.
Today, I do preach and speak about what is evil, but I choose to point the finger at me. If I declare anything from the rooftops it's my weakness, my sin, and my failings. In that I also acknowledge the only solution which is Christ.
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 06:26:21 AM
Quote from: ReformerIn the history of humankind there has not been...
That alone should tell us the times we are in--there is something new under the sun. I think it's more about boundaries being pushed and if no one pushes back, they just go farther and farther until they are stopped by God.
It says in the end times, the man of perdition will wear out the saints of the most high. To me, that means, exhaust them emotionally, probably by crossing every boundary God says not to cross. It's not like God just makes up random laws to amuse himself, as some like to imply, --he is giving us rules to live by that will save our lives and give us peace, happiness, and salvation.
But, now, at the end of the age, I believe we are to just call to those last ones who belong in the ark, to enter it. And, to give a witness to a world that will not listen this time around.
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Is man inventing new sins? Everything we see now, hasn't that followed man for generations?
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 05:17:09 AM
I wonder if Jesus didn't use the fact that he ate with sinners to teach them things? I also wonder just what kind of sinners he ate with? We are all considered sinners, these may have been just the everyday joe of that time.
I do see that the world which includes Christian leaders and Churches have become more and more accepting of things that the Bible condems. Everyone is looking the other way, we can't say much against anything, if we do we are considered a meddler, raciest, bigot, showing any love, or being disrespectful.
I wonder how many of the things that get pushed under the rug now will be destroyed by fire? If it is something that has to be destroyed by fire, doesn't that mean that it is wrong? What is so bad about saying something is wrong?
Just my thoughts.
CHB
Again why do we feel the need? The only "disputable" sin in just about everyone's eyes is homosexuality. Who doesn't know it's wrong to cheat, lie, steal, kill? We just sound like broken records.
I propose this...the church SHOULD stand up for what is right, and they start with themselves. If we first look at ourselves, striving for holiness as an extension of relationship, willing to admit to one another our weaknesses, maybe just maybe some of the world will follow our example of self examination.
So, I googled Sodom and Gomorrah and I found these articles in newpapers by various religious notables [eg. an Episcopal bishop] which say the cities were destroyed, not for homosexuality, but for inhospitality. Clearly there's been a bit of propaganda wars going on even involving the church that I was not aware of, and biblical history is being rewritten in preparation for major societal changes ahead. It never occurred to me that being inhospitable to strangers might be worse than gang rape of men on men. If only the rapists had offered the angels tea and crumpets first, those two cities might still be with us instead of a barren wilderness never rebuilt.
Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." [Mat 15:14]
I am more convinced than ever that the end time church and the word of God will be the two witnesses who stand before the God of all the earth and give a final witness to a world gone wrong.
Jesus said, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. [Mat 15:13]
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 02:34:28 PM
So, I googled Sodom and Gomorrah and I found all these articles in newpapers by various religious notables [eg. an Episcopal bishop] which say the cities were destroyed, not for homosexuality, but for inhospitality. Clearly there's been a bit of propaganda wars going on even involving the church that I was not aware of, and biblical history is being rewritten in preparation for major societal changes ahead. It never occurred to me that being inhospitable to strangers might be worse than gang rape of men on men. If only the rapists had offered the angels tea and crumpets first, those two cities might still be with us instead of a barren wilderness never rebuilt.
It would seem that I am not the only one reading the book of Jasher, for it mentions people staying in Sodom overnight, being denied exit, food, or water. When they expired, the locals would take their stuff. One young woman who helped such a visitor was put to death. So that's the background of their excuses, and the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were many and extreme, but none of them should be brought up to excuse the homosexual issue. It is more clear all the time that the churches have been taken over by an enemy who keeps up appearances as far as possible. The elect are not deceived.
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 02:34:28 PM
So, I googled Sodom and Gomorrah and I found these articles in newpapers by various religious notables [eg. an Episcopal bishop] which say the cities were destroyed, not for homosexuality, but for inhospitality. Clearly there's been a bit of propaganda wars going on even involving the church that I was not aware of, and biblical history is being rewritten in preparation for major societal changes ahead. It never occurred to me that being inhospitable to strangers might be worse than gang rape of men on men. If only the rapists had offered the angels tea and crumpets first, those two cities might still be with us instead of a barren wilderness never rebuilt.
Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." [Mat 15:14]
I am more convinced than ever that the end time church and the word of God will be the two witnesses who stand before the God of all the earth and give a final witness to a world gone wrong.
Jesus said, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. [Mat 15:13]
re: two witnesses ...church of God and the word of God
I agree, but state with different words, meaning the same --the two witnesses, imo, grace and truth
John 1:14-17
v 14 ...Word made flesh...full of grace and truth
v 16 And of his fulness have all we received, grace for grace
v 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ
Col 1:5 ... hope laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of truth, the gospel
v 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in ALL the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth.
Quote from: VineBranch on March 30, 2013, 03:10:43 AM
The thing which usually stikes me when we talk about perceptions is that we really don't know. Quite a few years ago now, I was walking back to my car from a restaurant, when I was approaced by a man. He said he noticed that I was carrying a Bible (I was reading it during dinner). He asked if I was a Christian. I said I was. He asked me ... 'could you pray for me'. I stood next to him and he bowed his head, and I prayed what I was lead to say. When it was over he said amen, smiled, and thanked me. I never saw him again. I've had people come up to me in restaurants, coffee shops, bus stops, at work etc. They usually ask something about the Bible I'm carrying, or they overheard me say something to someone else, and then they move on. I ask God to take care of them, and then I move on. Sometimes God will put them on my heart, and ask me to pray for them. Sometimes this happens at the weirdest times. But I think part of that is God telling me He is still looking after them. I was with them for five minutes, He is with them always. I can't honestly say I care who thinks I'm what ... God thinks I'm fine, and sometimes asks me to spend some time with someone.
I also find it interesting the Paul wrote his letters to churches, not governments, not the committee to do this and that, or to any city council. I think he got that when the church is okay, people come to it, because they see it has something they need. I think once we stop acting like the world, the world sees the difference. Some of them will want to get rid of us. That's okay. Some of them will want to destroy us. That's okay. As long as we don't return in kind. Some of them hate us. That's okay as long as we don't hate them. I think it's okay to let them destroy, as long as we don't destroy. Let them be violent to us, as long as we don't return the violence.
IMO it might be best for us to reflect God, and it matters not who hates us, or calls us names, or destroys what we do. It doesn't matter what they think or do.
Vine's :2c:
:dsunny:
Eze 16:49 "Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy."
As far as I know this is the only specific judgement against sodom. Otherwise it says they were greatly wicked.
Quote from: shawn on March 30, 2013, 07:13:12 AM
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 05:17:09 AM
I wonder if Jesus didn't use the fact that he ate with sinners to teach them things? I also wonder just what kind of sinners he ate with? We are all considered sinners, these may have been just the everyday joe of that time.
I do see that the world which includes Christian leaders and Churches have become more and more accepting of things that the Bible condems. Everyone is looking the other way, we can't say much against anything, if we do we are considered a meddler, raciest, bigot, showing any love, or being disrespectful.
I wonder how many of the things that get pushed under the rug now will be destroyed by fire? If it is something that has to be destroyed by fire, doesn't that mean that it is wrong? What is so bad about saying something is wrong?
Just my thoughts.
CHB
Again why do we feel the need? The only "disputable" sin in just about everyone's eyes is homosexuality. Who doesn't know it's wrong to cheat, lie, steal, kill? We just sound like broken records.
I propose this...the church SHOULD stand up for what is right, and they start with themselves. If we first look at ourselves, striving for holiness as an extension of relationship, willing to admit to one another our weaknesses, maybe just maybe some of the world will follow our example of self examination.
Why do we feel the need? The same reason I feel the need to get the word out that the whole world will be saved and because I love everybody. Are we not suppose to say anything about anything? If you saw someone going down the road driving erratically what would you do, say, "well, I will turn around and go in a different direction", not doing anything to find out why or try to stop them before they killed somebody? "I will just let them see how well I am driving" Is that love?
If you were walking down the street and two men were raping a woman, would you say "well, I will just look the other way, I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love?
Do you not teach your kids...if you have any...against the dangers of the world? Or, do you just let them do whatever they want without any teaching and hope they will learn from your actions. Is that love?
Would you try to stop an alcoholic from drinking a pint of liquor, a drug addict from sniffing...or whatever they do with it...crack cocaine? Or, say "oh well, why worry about them I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love, or just plain selfishness?
I say "no that is not love, it is just the opposite, it is also selfish thinking", to all of these things. Maybe we have a different perspective on what love is?
CHB
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 02:34:28 PM
So, I googled Sodom and Gomorrah and I found these articles in newpapers by various religious notables [eg. an Episcopal bishop] which say the cities were destroyed, not for homosexuality, but for inhospitality. Clearly there's been a bit of propaganda wars going on even involving the church that I was not aware of, and biblical history is being rewritten in preparation for major societal changes ahead. It never occurred to me that being inhospitable to strangers might be worse than gang rape of men on men. If only the rapists had offered the angels tea and crumpets first, those two cities might still be with us instead of a barren wilderness never rebuilt.
Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." [Mat 15:14]
I am more convinced than ever that the end time church and the word of God will be the two witnesses who stand before the God of all the earth and give a final witness to a world gone wrong.
Jesus said, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. [Mat 15:13]
You might not think hospitality is important but Jesus seems to thnk otherwise.
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
Isn't that hospitality? Is not hospitality an extension of our love for man?
Also, is man on man rape, worse than man on woman rape? Rape is rape. Sex outside of marriage is sex outside of marriage. Somehow we believe divorce and premarital sex are lesser sins than homosexuality. We can politicize and segregate sin all we wish. If that serves the church in a way that grows us upon love, then I guess I just don't see it.
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 04:32:10 PM
Quote from: shawn on March 30, 2013, 07:13:12 AM
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 05:17:09 AM
I wonder if Jesus didn't use the fact that he ate with sinners to teach them things? I also wonder just what kind of sinners he ate with? We are all considered sinners, these may have been just the everyday joe of that time.
I do see that the world which includes Christian leaders and Churches have become more and more accepting of things that the Bible condems. Everyone is looking the other way, we can't say much against anything, if we do we are considered a meddler, raciest, bigot, showing any love, or being disrespectful.
I wonder how many of the things that get pushed under the rug now will be destroyed by fire? If it is something that has to be destroyed by fire, doesn't that mean that it is wrong? What is so bad about saying something is wrong?
Just my thoughts.
CHB
Again why do we feel the need? The only "disputable" sin in just about everyone's eyes is homosexuality. Who doesn't know it's wrong to cheat, lie, steal, kill? We just sound like broken records.
I propose this...the church SHOULD stand up for what is right, and they start with themselves. If we first look at ourselves, striving for holiness as an extension of relationship, willing to admit to one another our weaknesses, maybe just maybe some of the world will follow our example of self examination.
Why do we feel the need? The same reason I feel the need to get the word out that the whole world will be saved and because I love everybody. Are we not suppose to say anything about anything? If you saw someone going down the road driving erratically what would you do, say, "well, I will turn around and go in a different direction", not doing anything to find out why or try to stop them before they killed somebody? "I will just let them see how well I am driving" Is that love?
If you were walking down the street and two men were raping a woman, would you say "well, I will just look the other way, I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love?
Do you not teach your kids...if you have any...against the dangers of the world? Or, do you just let them do whatever they want without any teaching and hope they will learn from your actions. Is that love?
Would you try to stop an alcoholic from drinking a pint of liquor, a drug addict from sniffing...or whatever they do with it...crack cocaine? Or, say "oh well, why worry about them I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love, or just plain selfishness?
I say "no that is not love, it is just the opposite, it is also selfish thinking", to all of these things. Maybe we have a different perspective on what love is?
CHB
The church says don't do, yet they do. They say homosexuality is the worst of all sins, while turning a blind eye to the divorce, premarital sex and pornographic/chemical addictions within their own ranks.
It's not that I don't believe sin ever needs to be preached, but I think it's kind of like a diabetic focusing on their infected necrotic toe. The toe is merely a symptom of the root disease. The diabetic can focus all they want on that toe, maybe even getting it better for a season, but it will return or the root disease will manifest in a new way and eventually causes death. The physical is a shadow of the spiritual.
Instead, we should be focusing on the root disease, and that disease is a separation in our minds from the love of God. We hide in the garden, covering our nakedness. We believe we are too sinful to come out from behind the bushes. But, God calls us by name, wanting his children to come out...to love us, brush us off, love us how we are...then change us into his likeness. The disease is self centered guilt and shame that keeps us from seeking the face of God.
The exposing of sin, only makes sin more sinful. Instead today, I seek the face of God knowing he loves me and every human on this planet. And THAT is what I tell people. Relationship heals, and changes. It focuses on the solution to the root disease. If the church wishes to look at the infected toe so be it.
What were the first words out of the mouths of both John the baptist and Jesus when he began his ministry?
'Repent'...
Quote from: lomarah on March 30, 2013, 06:12:09 AM
Yeah that's what I mean jab when I say we need to be led by the Spirit. If the Spirit leads, do whatever He's telling you to!! If He is NOT leading, do nothing! If you are unsure, run to a closet (LOL :banana: ) and pray til you ARE sure!
It is not the fact of a sin being a sin that is not okay in my eyes. It is when the pot is calling the kettle black, with no love for the kettle whatsoever. It is the "YOU ARE WRONG, HOMOSEXUALS! HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN!" attitude, the calling something wrong "because the Bible says so" attitude. If there's no love there, if there is no leading by the Spirit of LOVE then we are not just sounding like a clanging gong and cymbal, we are also turning them away from even wanting anything to do with God or the Bible. (See the video.)
And actually, going back to the video, why don't we take an example from God Himself who did not go around preaching to Willie, but who assured him of His love time and time again until he was so sure of it and filled with it that he was changed from the inside out.
I feel like we've all beaten this horse to death over and over and over again. My two cents: seek the Lord on it and in all things. Every situation and circumstance and person are different and only He will know what to do with it. And above all else, love.
Goodnight. :HeartThrob:
Amen!
I think a bit of straw man is going on here. I haven't read one person say homosexuality isn't a sin. I do believe we are in disagreement about the role of believers in "taking a stance against homosexuality"
Quote from: shawn on March 30, 2013, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 04:32:10 PM
Quote from: shawn on March 30, 2013, 07:13:12 AM
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 05:17:09 AM
I wonder if Jesus didn't use the fact that he ate with sinners to teach them things? I also wonder just what kind of sinners he ate with? We are all considered sinners, these may have been just the everyday joe of that time.
I do see that the world which includes Christian leaders and Churches have become more and more accepting of things that the Bible condems. Everyone is looking the other way, we can't say much against anything, if we do we are considered a meddler, raciest, bigot, showing any love, or being disrespectful.
I wonder how many of the things that get pushed under the rug now will be destroyed by fire? If it is something that has to be destroyed by fire, doesn't that mean that it is wrong? What is so bad about saying something is wrong?
Just my thoughts.
CHB
Again why do we feel the need? The only "disputable" sin in just about everyone's eyes is homosexuality. Who doesn't know it's wrong to cheat, lie, steal, kill? We just sound like broken records.
I propose this...the church SHOULD stand up for what is right, and they start with themselves. If we first look at ourselves, striving for holiness as an extension of relationship, willing to admit to one another our weaknesses, maybe just maybe some of the world will follow our example of self examination.
Why do we feel the need? The same reason I feel the need to get the word out that the whole world will be saved and because I love everybody. Are we not suppose to say anything about anything? If you saw someone going down the road driving erratically what would you do, say, "well, I will turn around and go in a different direction", not doing anything to find out why or try to stop them before they killed somebody? "I will just let them see how well I am driving" Is that love?
If you were walking down the street and two men were raping a woman, would you say "well, I will just look the other way, I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love?
Do you not teach your kids...if you have any...against the dangers of the world? Or, do you just let them do whatever they want without any teaching and hope they will learn from your actions. Is that love?
Would you try to stop an alcoholic from drinking a pint of liquor, a drug addict from sniffing...or whatever they do with it...crack cocaine? Or, say "oh well, why worry about them I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love, or just plain selfishness?
I say "no that is not love, it is just the opposite, it is also selfish thinking", to all of these things. Maybe we have a different perspective on what love is?
CHB
The church says don't do, yet they do. They say homosexuality is the worst of all sins, while turning a blind eye to the divorce, premarital sex and pornographic/chemical addictions within their own ranks.
It's not that I don't believe sin ever needs to be preached, but I think it's kind of like a diabetic focusing on their infected necrotic toe. The toe is merely a symptom of the root disease. The diabetic can focus all they want on that toe, maybe even getting it better for a season, but it will return or the root disease will manifest in a new way and eventually causes death. The physical is a shadow of the spiritual.
Instead, we should be focusing on the root disease, and that disease is a separation in our minds from the love of God. We hide in the garden, covering our nakedness. We believe we are too sinful to come out from behind the bushes. But, God calls us by name, wanting his children to come out...to love us, brush us off, love us how we are...then change us into his likeness. The disease is self centered guilt and shame that keeps us from seeking the face of God.
The exposing of sin, only makes sin more sinful. Instead today, I seek the face of God knowing he loves me and every human on this planet. And THAT is what I tell people. Relationship heals, and changes. It focuses on the solution to the root disease. If the church wishes to look at the infected toe so be it.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Yessir!!!!! Awesome analogy!!! And why do we fix the necrotic toe?? For the love of that person!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 05:44:57 PM
What were the first words out of the mouths of both John the baptist and Jesus when he began his ministry?
Repent...
And what is repentence? It starts with an acknowledgement of the Cross, grace, Gods agape love for man. It's a response to that...not some sort of white knuckle response from us. Repentence is a change of heart. A change of action follows the change of heart, not the other way around.
(And not because it's "wrong" to have a necrotic toe... LOL)
Quote from: shawn
Also, is man on man rape, worse than man on woman rape?
I think the Bible calls it sodomy, abominations.
Quote from: shawn
Rape is rape. Sex outside of marriage is sex outside of marriage. Somehow we believe divorce and premarital sex are lesser sins than homosexuality.
I don't think that and I don't think anyone else on here thinks that either.
Quote from: shawn
We can politicize and segregate sin all we wish. If that serves the church in a way that grows us upon love, then I guess I just don't see it.
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid".
CHB
It takes either a highly trained reconstructive surgeon to fix a necrotic foot or a garden variety surgeon to lop it off.
Either way, you have to deal with it or it will kill the body.
Quote from: shawn on March 30, 2013, 05:47:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 05:44:57 PM
What were the first words out of the mouths of both John the baptist and Jesus when he began his ministry?
Repent...
And what is repentence? It starts with an acknowledgement of the Cross, grace, Gods agape love for man. It's a response to that...not some sort of white knuckle response from us. Repentence is a change of heart. A change of action follows the change of heart, not the other way around.
Yes, yes, yes! Has everyone watched the video?? Because the Lord focused NOTHING on the mans sin. He focused NOTHING on it. Rather He focused His love upon him and changed him and healed him from the inside out.
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 05:51:43 PM
It takes either a highly trained reconstructive surgeon to fix a necrotic foot or a garden variety surgeon to lop it off.
Either way, you have to deal with it or it will kill the body.
YES. And how is sin overcome?? By preaching against the sin?? NOOOOOOO!!! By the love of God!!! :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:
Please listen! Months back the Lord told me He was going to start lightening my burdens, the burdens that had been loaded on to me by Babylon. One of the major burdens He's unloaded is feeling the need to preach to people or "witness" to people. WE cannot change a single person! ONLY God can!!! Please listen, I was quite serious when I said we all need to get into our quiet places with the Lord and to be changed ourselves, to have the planks removed by Him, and THEN He can use us as He sees fit to minister to and change the world!! It's so exciting what He's doing in this hour and I am BEGGING everyone to get into their quiet places and seek His face, forget about trying to do your own works (that are not going to bear fruit anyhow) and be filled with the Holy Spirit so that He can truly use us to change the world!!
Quote from: lomarah
Spirit so that He can truly use us to change the world!!
lomarah, how is he going to use us to change the world if we can't say anything as to how it needs to be changed? We'll be too busy sticking our heads in the sand.
CHB
NO! We will be too busy LOVING the world!!! Healing, setting free. Think of Jesus and the disciples. Do you see?? And it's not about not saying anything. It's about saying things AS LED BY HIM!! See??
I'm sorry for all of the exclamations but I am extremely excited by what God is doing as of late. I long for us all to be close to Him and to be walking by His Spirit, for all of us to be led by His Spirit, to taste the freedom and the joy of being a part of His changing the world. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
He is doing awesome things!!!
Quote from: lomarah on March 30, 2013, 06:24:17 PM
NO! We will be too busy LOVING the world!!! Healing, setting free. Think of Jesus and the disciples. Do you see?? And it's not about not saying anything. It's about saying things AS LED BY HIM!! See??
lomarah, I feel like I have been saying things as led by him. How are we going to heal, set free, unless we all get rid of the fleshly things that beset us?
Quote from: lomarah
I'm sorry for all of the exclamations but I am extremely excited by what God is doing as of late. I long for us all to be close to Him and to be walking by His Spirit, for all of us to be led by His Spirit, to taste the freedom and the joy of being a part of His changing the world. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Don't worry about the exclamations. :girlheart: Doesn't changing the world mean to get rid of the way things are now such as all of our fleshly desires?
Quote from: lomarah
He is doing awesome things!!!
Yes he is.
CHB
Yeah CHB! We do things as He leads! And the healing and setting free is what gets rid of the fleshly things that beset us! :cloud9: :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Hopefully we'll all care and take into serious consideration what the scriptures say. We all stand before the Lord and give account, so I'll just sum up my own thoughts in this whole thing as, I believe we're supposed to speak the truth, in love. Everyone can decide for themselves. Blessings.
Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.
James 5:19,20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
Galatians 6:1 Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.
The next passage is if a sin is against a person in particular - Matthew 18:15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
What would happen if God used a gay person to set a person free or start a revival?What would our response be?
God used Rahab ,obvious case,.All things have been begun by God with people that weren't perfect.
He might even use us!
Well, we've talked all around this, IMO. I started the thread because it's been weighing on my heart. Before I move on, I'll lay my understandings out on the line directly, and then of course everyone can do with them as they wish. :HeartThrob:
I honestly think some things about these recent discussions are attributing our own thoughts and feelings to it, rather than what is written, sound doctrine. I'm searching my own heart, and perhaps I've done it too. NOT that there's not PIECES of truth here and there mixed in, but in total, not taking in the whole counsel of God.
Can someone please show me in the scriptures - taking into account multiple scriptures and aspects of it - not just one line out of context, where people are saved only by another human loving them? Can someone do the same with the idea that people are only saved through relationship?
No one directly answered my question, "what if I started a thread teaching X sin was OK, and encouraging people to do it". I believe that if that happened, someone should be led by the Holy Spirit to contend with me for sound doctrine - in love - showing me what the scriptures say about it, and encouraging me to come out of the sin of deceit and get my beliefs back in line with the scriptures.
I hugged a lesbian today that I like, 3 different times during my grandson's birthday party. I have warm, loving feelings toward her. I've known her now for over 2 years. But I've never had the courage to say anything to her in terms of trying to help pull her out of her sinful lifestyle, even if given the opportunity. Wimped out. I'm pretty sure my just listening to her, being friendly with her, loving her and hugging her, hasn't saved or delivered her. We're buddies, but she's still doing exactly what she was doing when I met her. I submit that Willy in the video, was NOT saved because someone was nice to him, "only loved him". I think continuing to stress it in that manner is throwing things off target. Let's be factual. Willy was saved because God went directly and got him, according to His will - like He did Paul (although He did tell Paul he was persecuting Him). That's God's business if He decides to go directly and grab someone. But He also tells us to speak the truth in love, and His Word indicates He wants to use us to help pull people from their sin, to contend for sound doctrine, to talk to a person directly WHEN IT'S APPROPRIATE, always being sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading. Not in anger or trying to hurt or condemn them, but to love them by helping them. I've never felt led to say anything directly to my lesbian friend (or I missed the opportunity) but I'm starting to wonder if my silence and friendship has served a purpose (showing love and acceptance of her AS A PERSON), but that I might also be wasting time and at some point, need to take advantage of a next opportunity rather than smile and keep silent. One day she was talking about church, what she thought about the scriptures in regards to her being in an open, ongoing homosexual relationship, what the church taught, etc. I remember sitting there, basically just listening, smiling, figuratively patting her on the back. Now I realize I either probably should have explored that more with her and shared my understanding of what God wants in that regard, how He does love us, and that means He wants to change and deliver us. So it seems to me that I'm missing the mark regarding the scriptures posted 2 posts above. I need to go before the Lord about that and be sensitive to His leading going forward. I admit, it frightens me and gives me doubt. I don't want to upset her, have her turn on me, talk about me, etc. Who's problem is that? The Word's, or mine?
Just like all of us, I answer to the Lord on these things, but we are to try to help each other and lately I've been convicted of my looking the other way - actually, while looking at what's happening in the world and within the church (stated in the OP) of recently throwing my hands up and giving up. Paraphrasing, God basically said, "no, no - salt and light [if the salt has lost its savor, it's good for nothing but to be trampled under foot"]. I realize this stuff doesn't make friends of anyone who doesn't want to hear it, but God bless and I'm working on expressing these things in love. I need more love. Some of you put me to shame. And I realize my part starts with me, examining ME and attempting to be transparent myself before the Lord - of which I fail. James.
Thanks Jabcat for a very heartfelt post. It seems to me that the very rules for posting inevitably lead to more of a sharing of personal thoughts and feelings...a sharing of opinions...
Just a thought... maybe have a board for sharing opinions/experiences/feelings/thoughts as they relate to Jesus Savior of all men...
and another for sharing "findings" or "treasures" from our study of the Scriptures as they relate to Jesus Savior of all men
Mixing even two good things often leads to confusion ... debate?
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 05:48:29 PM
Quote from: shawn
Also, is man on man rape, worse than man on woman rape?
I think the Bible calls it sodomy, abominations.
Quote from: shawn
Rape is rape. Sex outside of marriage is sex outside of marriage. Somehow we believe divorce and premarital sex are lesser sins than homosexuality.
I don't think that and I don't think anyone else on here thinks that either.
Quote from: shawn
We can politicize and segregate sin all we wish. If that serves the church in a way that grows us upon love, then I guess I just don't see it.
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid".
CHB
Then why is it our focus? We turn a blind eye towards the teens in the youth group (kids will be kids) having sex, the pastors, elders, parishioners looking at porn...pew gossip, and a general unloving attitude for anyone who engages one of those "really bad sins". And we wonder why the world considers Christians hypocrites? If the shoe fits.
CHB...of course we don't turn a blind eye. It should call us ALL into repentence. But, how? What is the solution? The calling out of one specific group, who engages a sin we find more detestable than others? How about ignoring our own sin?
The command of Christ was to take the plank out of our own eye FIRST. Is there any sin in your life you detest that pops up from time to time? Did you repent of it? Then why did you engage it again? Does that make you a bad person? Does that make you less a son of God? No, that sin reminds us we are human, still in these frail vessels of flesh. It reminds us to turn our eyes to Christ, instead of one of our selfish endeavors. Our sin should remind us of our need for a Savior. Our sin should remind us to not judge our neighbor.
The solution is Christ. When we see someone suffering in sin, love them...accept them...eat with them...tell them about Gods love for them and how he loves them as they are. When a person truly accepts that, they enter the Kingdom of God through the gate of faith. And in that beautiful moment they begin a journey of transformation.
Jabcat, we are not saved because another person loves us. We are saved because God loves us. Nothing more...nothing less. How do we lead people to that other than loving them? Telling them they are an abomination? No, we tell them God loves them, show them we love them, and share with them about our faith when the door opens. Let the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit does.
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 05:51:43 PM
It takes either a highly trained reconstructive surgeon to fix a necrotic foot or a garden variety surgeon to lop it off.
Either way, you have to deal with it or it will kill the body.
I agree.
What happens when you cut it off? Another toe gets infected, or you go blind, or your kidneys stop working. Why? Because you never dealt with the root cause. Sin is a symptom.
Quote from: lomarah on March 30, 2013, 05:52:31 PM
Quote from: shawn on March 30, 2013, 05:47:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 30, 2013, 05:44:57 PM
What were the first words out of the mouths of both John the baptist and Jesus when he began his ministry?
Repent...
And what is repentence? It starts with an acknowledgement of the Cross, grace, Gods agape love for man. It's a response to that...not some sort of white knuckle response from us. Repentence is a change of heart. A change of action follows the change of heart, not the other way around.
Yes, yes, yes! Has everyone watched the video?? Because the Lord focused NOTHING on the mans sin. He focused NOTHING on it. Rather He focused His love upon him and changed him and healed him from the inside out.
Amen! Change in behavior follows a change in the heart. A change in the heart comes when we accept Gods love for us through faith. Why do we continually make this about us?
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 06:10:43 PM
Quote from: lomarah
Spirit so that He can truly use us to change the world!!
lomarah, how is he going to use us to change the world if we can't say anything as to how it needs to be changed? We'll be too busy sticking our heads in the sand.
CHB
If by loving our neighbor and allowing the Holy Spirit to do what the Holy Spirit does...is sticking my head in the sand...then please get out the shovel.
And James, I too appreciate your heartfelt post. I do realize many of my brothers and sisters in Christ see this issue very differently then myself. We each have our own journey and understanding. I could go through my Bible and put together verses, passages etc together to support what I see. You, Molly, CHB can do the same. We see verses through our own relationship and understanding hoping the Holy Spirit is guiding that understanding. I hope my words have help sharpen, as many of your points have help sharpen me.
Quote from: shawn on March 31, 2013, 12:39:48 AM
And James, I too appreciate your heartfelt post. I do realize many of my brothers and sisters in Christ see this issue very differently then myself. We each have our own journey and understanding. I could go through my Bible and put together verses, passages etc together to support what I see. You, Molly, CHB can do the same. We see verses through our own relationship and understanding hoping the Holy Spirit is guiding that understanding. I hope my words have help sharpen, as many of your points have help sharpen me.
Cool post, thanks. And I hear you w/p. Sometimes I spend so much time and energy questioning, "assisting discussion along", I get wearied with it, and I realized today that part of the weariness is that sometimes I don't just come out and say what I really believe - rather instead, hoping to help others think about it. And in the process
sometimes I get frustrated. I own it. Sometimes I just need to spit it out :).
Yeah Shawn, I just went walking around Lowes looking for some guttering :), and hammering in my head about this issue - again, looking at different angles of it, etc. Questioning my own beliefs about it.
I don't see any way I can personally dispute or explain away the scriptures about going to someone and attempting to help them, specifically with sin. I believe a thorough search and revelation of the scriptures would boil down to God's Word's through Paul - speak the truth in love. I'm realizing that in
anything, if we do it in the flesh, in the wrong attitude or spirit, it's wrong.
That said, that I see clear instructions as to going to someone directly [at times? as led!] -
I really think one of the main things that prompted me to start this thread is a wider, societal aspect - starting in the world, and I believe now, permeating the church. I.e., what I believe is the lie that if we disagree or take a stand scripturally -
even in love - we're basically told to shut up, it no longer counts. So it grieves me that we as a society, and now more and more as a church, we are not willing -
when directly faced with the opportunity, when led, when appropriate, and in love - to speak up. I believe "we're" believing the lie that we should just keep quiet, there is no standard of right and wrong, and morality is irrelevant. So the creep has become a deluge. :2c:
Personally, I believe I at least need to be willing to
speak the truth in love - when prompted. And honestly, I wish more would do so when presented with the opportunity. But again, that's between every one and God. We can't force, we're just required to do what we're led to do - whether that's be silent, or speak up. My problem is, within "the church", I usually keep quiet so as to not offend or out of fear - and "in the world", sometimes I want to say things that may be true, but are not in love. :sigh: Blessings.
shawn, you must not have read some of my posts? Read Jabcats post #66, I feel the same way. I think he has a more loving attitude than I do?
No one is singling out Homosexuals that is just what the discussion is about.
I am not going to sugar coat anything, I am going to say it as I see it. Here is the way I feel about the problem of homosexuality and it is a problem. I think I have just about exausted everything I should say on this subject.
Homosexuality was a sin that got people stoned in the OT and Paul said "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but RATHER REPROVE THEM (Eph. 5:11). (Eph. 4:15) But SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE.
(Eph. 5:25-33) nothing in these verses say anything about a man loving another man or a woman loving another woman. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
(Col. 3:16) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richlyin all wisdom;TEACHING AND ADMMONISHING ONE ANOTHER.
You cannot tell me this isn't talking about Homosexuals.
(Rom. 1:26-28) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
I think homosexuality is wrong, a sin and if they can voice their opinion as to why they think it is ok, I think we should be able to voice our opinion as to why it is wrong and not be condemned for it. We are being judged for our beliefs more than the homosexuals are. We who don't think this is right are being put down for how we feel about it and for encouraging others to speak up and let them know it is wrong. Now, to me this is wrong.
I will shut up for now.
CHB
CHB, I'm not sure you read any of my posts. That is ok, but forgive me if I don't address your points again. I understand you believe homosexuality is a sin (just as we all do), and you believe it's important to let others know what you believe about the subject. I will respect that.
And Jab, we are all built different. We are different instruments in Gods orchestra. Some are built for prophecy, some are built for hospitality, some for healing, and others for teaching. I think I'm as guilty as the next guy at trying to make a flute out of a trumpet. May The Lord forgive me for that. The way I see it today, may not be the way I see it tomorrow and that is called growth. Thanks for all your posts which help me grow in ways I wouldn't grow without your insights. Sometimes I get the impression you don't cut yourself much slack. We are not supposed to have all this figured out. I think the wrestling along the journey is just an extension of the threshing process. It's painful sometimes. But, it leads to truer truths, and deeper more textured insights about our Creator. I believe this wrestling pleases Him.
Quote from: shawn on March 31, 2013, 02:54:31 AM
And Jab, we are all built different. We are different instruments in Gods orchestra.
Thanks, yes, I agree with that - also, our own personalities, strengths and weaknesses.
More general comments now, the "you" I use isn't just "
you", if you know what I mean. I mean we/us, the church. These comments are based on where I spend some time, and some things I personally see and experience. Maybe not everyone will be exposed to all this - at least yet. If I go into the mountains I dream about, or become the guitar-playing monk I kidded about... :bigGrin:
Or shut the computer off and "let it come to me". I'll pray about that..maybe I shouldn't be involved in those discussions with the world so much. Probably. (Involved are also other professing believers, who actually condone the sins.)
I think :laugh: I believe (pretty much) everything I've said. Kind of coming full circle to my OP, where I said I spend time reading comments on news articles on different news sites, perhaps more than I should. Regardless, doing so, I may be seeing some things that others aren't seeing so much of, or vice versa. I know one particular member has more guts than me, and actually spends time sharing in much tougher places than me. I'm a light-weight. Mostly an observer, interested in what people think.
Anyway, what I often see, especially regarding anything like a social/spiritual/cultural issue - even though pertinent, not
as much about my direct interpersonal contacts, but "out there" - whether it's about a church congregation, other issues. Right now just happens to be the hot topic being about homosexuality and homosexual marriage. So I'm seeing a LOT of screaming at anyone - loving, pleasant, whatever - that states anything about the scriptures or God's will about one of the issues. There may be 20 people "for" whatever sin is in question, and if one person gently says "Jesus said", etc., then the screaming of "not everyone believes in fairies in the sky", "you're spewing hate", "you Christians are intolerant", etc. What I'm saying is, I believe a door is closing that only God will open at some point - I'm just not sure what will have to happen in the meantime, and how each of us might be affected. Make no mistake. In the arenas I'm talking about now, if you even utters a simple scriptural statement, in certain of those conversations, you'll be vilified and hated for it. If you have any sound scriptural beliefs at all that is different than "I accept not only you, but what you're doing", then you're the enemy, stupid, delusional, the Bible's outdated, you're incompetent, insane... So my whole point in starting this was, I personally believe we've cowered under this, and may be in danger of putting our light under a bushel at times.
Again, make no mistake - there's a tidal wave sweeping the country and I believe the world, that is for anything that's against God. As I said, the push is toward even publicly stating something like homosexuality (which again is the hot and virulent current topic - probably not a coincidence, as it's the next taboo to be broken down in a series of steps ["we wrestle not against flesh and blood") then it will be a hate crime and against the law, with consequences of who knows what. I'm 54, and I'm not positive I'll see it in my lifetime, but unless the Lord cuts the time short and intervenes, it will happen. That's where we're headed. If I weren't "out there" in those spots (and it's nothing exceptionally bizarre [Yahoo, MSNBC, Huffington Post, etc.] I probably wouldn't see it as much, and if so, it would be even easier to be lulled to sleep. It's the put a frog in water and slowly heat it to boiling, and it doesn't even realize it's dying phenomena. I guess I'm sort of sounding an alarm. If I'm wrong, ignore me and pray for me. But IMO, unless you're buying into the lie that if you disagree and stand for something different then you're a hater so you should just keep your mouth shut, then you are indeed hated and labeled as the enemy. Again, I'm not talking about going out and reading people the riot act and slamming them into hell - but more so if it hits us in the face, do we just be silent, or do we truly believe in speaking the truth in love? Everyone must decide.
Blessings.
Amen, Jab!
Well thought out post Jab. I read it all, and can see where you are headed. Will being a Christian become akin to being in the KKK? I don't know. But, I will say this, for your fears to become realized MUCH would have to change. If that day comes, then that day comes. I won't live in fear. I will not keep my focus on these things. What I will try to do is love God, my neighbor and speak truth in love. If there comes a day when Christians are considered a hate group, banned, imprisioned, killed for their beliefs then I pray I'm prepared for the persecution and that I stand strong.
Don't kid yourself that much will have to change, Shawn. It depends what part of the country you are from. I already live in that place.
Quote from: shawn on March 31, 2013, 06:01:20 AM
Well thought out post Jab. I read it all, and can see where you are headed. Will being a Christian become akin to being in the KKK? I don't know. If that day comes, then that day comes. I won't live in fear. I will not keep my focus on these things. What I will try to do is love God, my neighbor and speak truth in love. If there comes a day when Christians are considered a hate group, banned, imprisioned, killed for their beliefs then I pray I'm prepared for the persecution and that I stand strong.
Thanks Shawn, and amen to everything, except what will have to change. I just don't know about that. I'm not a prophet, although I probably am the son of one. The older I get, I realize that many years ago my now-deceased father saw things in the future and tried to sound the alarm, about things that are actually happening now. But I don't know. I observe, wonder, and suspect. I do know as Molly mentions, and in general depending where one is and in what circles one is operating, it's different for different people. Not all have got a good taste of this yet I guess, and I very well may be wrong about some of what I've written in this thread. God knows, and the UR connection to this is, God will make all things new. What's our role in the meantime? I do believe it's abiding in Him and having Him flow through us. The search for me is, what does that look like. Paul said "oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me? Jesus Christ". Amen.
Blessings and grace.
I ran across this from Willy Torrensin;
"People, who struggle and eventually give up, often have as their goal, the desire to be 'straight'. This goal sets a person up for failure. Failure doesn't mean that the Bible should be rewritten. The true answer has always been in the scriptures. Our goal is not to seek heterosexuality, and it never has been. Our goal is to seek our God and to find the one who becomes our all. When Jesus is the goal, he aligns us by his power to his Father's design for our lives. His goal is not for us to find sexual perfection but to walk toward his holy perfection. Holiness is his aim.
"I also discovered that God's love and grace were available for me as I learned to walk this new life, step by step, and day by day."
Amen, God is good.
Quote from: jabcat on March 31, 2013, 07:22:22 AM
I ran across this from Willy Torrensin;
"People, who struggle and eventually give up, often have as their goal, the desire to be 'straight'. This goal sets a person up for failure. Failure doesn't mean that the Bible should be rewritten. The true answer has always been in the scriptures. Our goal is not to seek heterosexuality, and it never has been. Our goal is to seek our God and to find the one who becomes our all. When Jesus is the goal, he aligns us by his power to his Father's design for our lives. His goal is not for us to find sexual perfection but to walk toward his holy perfection. Holiness is his aim.
"I also discovered that God's love and grace were available for me as I learned to walk this new life, step by step, and day by day."
Amen, God is good.
I think he nailed it.
Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2013, 06:13:15 AM
Don't kid yourself that much will have to change, Shawn. It depends what part of the country you are from. I already live in that place.
You are put in prison for what you believe? You live in Iraq?
Hi! I've only read the first post in this thread.. so I know I'm four pages behind :laughing7:
..I've been reading Deuteronomy, book of the law, and really enjoying it, when in the past, not so much.. It lets you know what God, our Father thinks about things.
The world not only judges Christians, and quite harshly (that fallen away from Christendom and spirit of anti-Christ operating) but also judges God!! They judge God because of the stonings of wrong-doers, without realizing aLL will be restored to life, and also that God was providing as pure a place as likely possible for Messiah Jesus to be born, for one thing.
Deuteronomy also lets us know what will not be in His Kingdom. Yes, some things are called abomination, being a harlot (or the less nice word is employed) for one.. But! What the world misses is all the kindheartedness of the law.. such us "do not glean your fields" or even glean the corners you miss, so the poor at the time and the widows, etc may harvest.
They judge Him for the wars against the Canaanite nations, and for what they call slavery. Not realizing it would not be kindness nor mercy to allow the practices of those nations to continue, harming many, and eventually destroying the world. And how the last straw with Him was their offering their babes alive in fire to their gods (which they were becoming like). And the 'slavery' they condemn God for was a borrowing, and working to repay system. And they are not aware of the regular jubilee years when all debts were forgiven. How things put forth as pledge, if it was one's cloak, be sure to return before nightfall for he will need his cloak.. But what I've been noticing most of all is how often during these commandments/laws given, He said -- "that it be well with you".
Quote from: shawn on March 31, 2013, 07:48:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2013, 06:13:15 AM
Don't kid yourself that much will have to change, Shawn. It depends what part of the country you are from. I already live in that place.
You are put in prison for what you believe? You live in Iraq?
Do you go out of your way to not understand what I'm saying?
You said this:
"Will being a Christian become
akin to being in the KKK? I don't know. But, I will say this, for your fears to become realized MUCH would have to change. If that day comes, then that day comes. I won't live in fear. I will not keep my focus on these things. What I will try to do is love God, my neighbor and speak truth in love. If there comes a day when Christians are considered
a hate group, banned..."
Hey, nevermind, ok?
Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2013, 07:55:26 AM
Quote from: shawn on March 31, 2013, 07:48:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2013, 06:13:15 AM
Don't kid yourself that much will have to change, Shawn. It depends what part of the country you are from. I already live in that place.
You are put in prison for what you believe? You live in Iraq?
Do you go out of your way to not understand what I'm saying?
You said this:
"Will being a Christian become akin to being in the KKK? I don't know. But, I will say this, for your fears to become realized MUCH would have to change. If that day comes, then that day comes. I won't live in fear. I will not keep my focus on these things. What I will try to do is love God, my neighbor and speak truth in love. If there comes a day when Christians are considered a hate group, banned..."
Hey, nevermind, ok?
No, but you need to be more specific. I mentioned several things. I apologize that upset you.
Quote from: marie glen on March 31, 2013, 07:54:47 AM
Hi! I've only read the first post in this thread.. so I know I'm four pages behind :laughing7:
..I've been reading Deuteronomy, book of the law, and really enjoying it, when in the past, not so much.. It lets you know what God, our Father thinks about things.
The world not only judges Christians, and quite harshly (that fallen away from Christendom and spirit of anti-Christ operating) but also judges God!! They judge God because of the stonings of wrong-doers, without realizing aLL will be restored to life, and also that God was providing as pure a place as likely possible for Messiah Jesus to be born, for one thing.
Deuteronomy also lets us know what will not be in His Kingdom. Yes, some things are called abomination, being a harlot (or the less nice word is employed) for one.. But! What the world misses is all the kindheartedness of the law.. such us "do not glean your fields" or even glean the corners you miss, so the poor at the time and the widows, etc may harvest.
They judge Him for the wars against the Canaanite nations, and for what they call slavery. Not realizing it would not be kindness nor mercy to allow the practices of those nations to continue, harming many, and eventually destroying the world. And how the last straw with Him was their offering their babes alive in fire to their gods (which they were becoming like). And the 'slavery' they condemn God for was a borrowing, and working to repay system. And they are not aware of the regular jubilee years when all debts were forgiven. How things put forth as pledge, if it was one's cloak, be sure to return before nightfall for he will need his cloak.. But what I've been noticing most of all is how often during these commandments/laws given, He said -- "that it be well with you".
Spot on, Marie. Someone called me up this week and announced, out of the blue, and just because they are aware that I love the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--'did you know he ordered the Israelites to kill all the Philistines? He likes killing people.'
Now, this isn't because they want to know anything about it--it is because they are trying to convince me that the God I love not only does not exist, he's nasty as all get out.
What is the point of that? It's like constant harrassment.
we are still sacrificing babies to 'the fire' today. the fire is just our destructive lust for pleasure-putting pleasure above God. putting responsibility for our actions 'to death'. teaching our children that life is no longer precious and sexuality need not be married to responsibility and faithfulness- a short term experience of self satisfaction rather than a life long renewal of a covenant of love.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 31, 2013, 08:25:12 AM
we are still sacrificing babies to 'the fire' today. the fire is just our destructive lust for pleasure-putting pleasure above God. putting responsibility for our actions 'to death'. teaching our children that life is no longer precious and sexuality need not be married to responsibility and faithfulness- a short term experience of self satisfaction rather than a life long renewal of a covenant of love.
Exactly. well said.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 31, 2013, 08:25:12 AM
we are still sacrificing babies to 'the fire' today. the fire is just our destructive lust for pleasure-putting pleasure above God. putting responsibility for our actions 'to death'. teaching our children that life is no longer precious and sexuality need not be married to responsibility and faithfulness- a short term experience of self satisfaction rather than a life long renewal of a covenant of love.
I agree. Another thought about your reference to Jeremiah is Jesus referencing that in Matthew 23.
13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]
15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
Child of Gehenna, a reference to Jeremiah 19
and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind.
A child sacrificed to an idol. In your point the lust for pleasure is an idol. In Jesus' point, he was speaking to those who traveled land and sea, went to great lengths to win converts, only to bind them to the laws of men...the idol of religion.
Thanks jabcat for sharing your heart, you are a blessing to me , to us all,thanks for always listening!
I pray and hope we will all continue to listen to each other!
I pray the spirit leads and we all can rest and love again.
Iron sharpening iron,for God is in control , even this site
Blessings
Quote from: onlytruth on March 31, 2013, 09:09:45 AM
Thanks jabcat for sharing your heart, you are a blessing to me , to us all,thanks for always listening!
I pray and hope we will all continue to listen to each other!
I pray the spirit leads and we all can rest and love again.
Iron sharpening iron,for God is in control , even this site
Blessings
Trying to be quiet here for awhile Fred, but :HeartThrob: :CryBaby:
Quote from: jabcat on March 31, 2013, 09:16:09 AM
Quote from: onlytruth on March 31, 2013, 09:09:45 AM
Thanks jabcat for sharing your heart, you are a blessing to me , to us all,thanks for always listening!
I pray and hope we will all continue to listen to each other!
I pray the spirit leads and we all can rest and love again.
Iron sharpening iron,for God is in control , even this site
Blessings
Trying to be quiet here for awhile Fred, but :HeartThrob: :CryBaby:
Awwww don't even, you'll make me start hahaha. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: shawn on March 31, 2013, 07:33:03 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 31, 2013, 07:22:22 AM
I ran across this from Willy Torrensin;
"People, who struggle and eventually give up, often have as their goal, the desire to be 'straight'. This goal sets a person up for failure. Failure doesn't mean that the Bible should be rewritten. The true answer has always been in the scriptures. Our goal is not to seek heterosexuality, and it never has been. Our goal is to seek our God and to find the one who becomes our all. When Jesus is the goal, he aligns us by his power to his Father's design for our lives. His goal is not for us to find sexual perfection but to walk toward his holy perfection. Holiness is his aim.
"I also discovered that God's love and grace were available for me as I learned to walk this new life, step by step, and day by day."
Amen, God is good.
I think he nailed it.
Awesome find jab!! :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:gimmefive:
Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2013, 08:05:57 AM
Someone called me up this week and announced, out of the blue, and just because they are aware that I love the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--'did you know he ordered the Israelites to kill all the Philistines? He likes killing people.'
It's like constant harrassment.
:( I'm sorry. Peace.
Quote from: jabcat on March 31, 2013, 04:55:40 AM
Quote from: shawn on March 31, 2013, 02:54:31 AM
And Jab, we are all built different. We are different instruments in Gods orchestra.
Thanks, yes, I agree with that - also, our own personalities, strengths and weaknesses.
More general comments now, the "you" I use isn't just "you", if you know what I mean. I mean we/us, the church. These comments are based on where I spend some time, and some things I personally see and experience. Maybe not everyone will be exposed to all this - at least yet. If I go into the mountains I dream about, or become the guitar-playing monk I kidded about... :bigGrin:
Or shut the computer off and "let it come to me". I'll pray about that..maybe I shouldn't be involved in those discussions with the world so much. Probably. (Involved are also other professing believers, who actually condone the sins.)
I think :laugh: I believe (pretty much) everything I've said. Kind of coming full circle to my OP, where I said I spend time reading comments on news articles on different news sites, perhaps more than I should. Regardless, doing so, I may be seeing some things that others aren't seeing so much of, or vice versa. I know one particular member has more guts than me, and actually spends time sharing in much tougher places than me. I'm a light-weight. Mostly an observer, interested in what people think.
Anyway, what I often see, especially regarding anything like a social/spiritual/cultural issue - even though pertinent, not as much about my direct interpersonal contacts, but "out there" - whether it's about a church congregation, other issues. Right now just happens to be the hot topic being about homosexuality and homosexual marriage. So I'm seeing a LOT of screaming at anyone - loving, pleasant, whatever - that states anything about the scriptures or God's will about one of the issues. There may be 20 people "for" whatever sin is in question, and if one person gently says "Jesus said", etc., then the screaming of "not everyone believes in fairies in the sky", "you're spewing hate", "you Christians are intolerant", etc. What I'm saying is, I believe a door is closing that only God will open at some point - I'm just not sure what will have to happen in the meantime, and how each of us might be affected. Make no mistake. In the arenas I'm talking about now, if you even utters a simple scriptural statement, in certain of those conversations, you'll be vilified and hated for it. If you have any sound scriptural beliefs at all that is different than "I accept not only you, but what you're doing", then you're the enemy, stupid, delusional, the Bible's outdated, you're incompetent, insane... So my whole point in starting this was, I personally believe we've cowered under this, and may be in danger of putting our light under a bushel at times.
Again, make no mistake - there's a tidal wave sweeping the country and I believe the world, that is for anything that's against God. As I said, the push is toward even publicly stating something like homosexuality (which again is the hot and virulent current topic - probably not a coincidence, as it's the next taboo to be broken down in a series of steps ["we wrestle not against flesh and blood") then it will be a hate crime and against the law, with consequences of who knows what. I'm 54, and I'm not positive I'll see it in my lifetime, but unless the Lord cuts the time short and intervenes, it will happen. That's where we're headed. If I weren't "out there" in those spots (and it's nothing exceptionally bizarre [Yahoo, MSNBC, Huffington Post, etc.] I probably wouldn't see it as much, and if so, it would be even easier to be lulled to sleep. It's the put a frog in water and slowly heat it to boiling, and it doesn't even realize it's dying phenomena. I guess I'm sort of sounding an alarm. If I'm wrong, ignore me and pray for me. But IMO, unless you're buying into the lie that if you disagree and stand for something different then you're a hater so you should just keep your mouth shut, then you are indeed hated and labeled as the enemy. Again, I'm not talking about going out and reading people the riot act and slamming them into hell - but more so if it hits us in the face, do we just be silent, or do we truly believe in speaking the truth in love? Everyone must decide.
Blessings
Wow!! This was really good Jabcat. :HeartThrob:
Just thinking, if the day comes in our life time that they lead us up to be tried for speaking out about what we believe to be right or wrong, I pray God gives me the guts to stick to what I believe is right and not back down or cower to anyone's threats. I'm afraid that day might come sooner than we think.
CHB
WOW !!! :HeartThrob: Please consider what the Word says concerning those matters of the heart and keeping our heart pure in the will of God , you ALL have given so much to think about ! I took both the KJV AND NLT verses because they both seem to clarify alot , for those who use both versions as well as other versions of the Bible
KJV
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault [at all].
NLT
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, "My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world." Pilate said, "So you are a king?" Jesus responded, "You say I am a king. Actually, I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth. All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true."What is truth?" Pilate asked. Then he went out again to the people and told them, "He is not guilty of any crime.
KJV
Jhn 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
NLT
Jhn 14:30 "I don't have much more time to talk to you, because the ruler of this world approaches. He has no power over me, but I will do what the Father requires of me, so that the world will know that I love the Father. Come, let's be going.
KJV
Jhn 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
NLT
Jhn 16:11 Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.
I find this so interesting and how much it does apply to truth , byt these two words and their meanings in the Holy WORD of God
prin·ci·pal (prns-pl)
adj.
1. First, highest, or foremost in importance, rank, worth, or degree; chief. See Synonyms at chief.
2. Of, relating to, or being financial principal, or a principal in a financial transaction.
n.
1. One who holds a position of presiding rank, especially the head of an elementary school or high school.
2. A main participant in a situation.
3. A person having a leading or starring role.
4.
a. The capital or main body of an estate or financial holding as distinguished from the interest or revenue from it.
b. A sum of money owed as a debt, upon which interest is calculated.
5. Law
a. A person who empowers another to act as his or her representative.
b. The person having prime responsibility for an obligation as distinguished from one who acts as surety or as an endorser.
c. One who commits or is an accomplice to a crime.
6. Architecture Either of a pair of inclined timbers forming the sides of a triangular truss for a pitched roof.
princi·pal·ly adv.
princi·pal·ship n.
Usage Note: Principal and principle are often confused but have no meanings in common. Principle is only a noun and usually refers to a rule or standard. Principal is both a noun and an adjective. As a noun, it has specialized meanings in law and finance, but in general usage it refers to a person who holds a high position or plays an important role: a meeting among all the principals in the transaction. As an adjective it has the sense of "chief" or "leading": The coach's principal concern is the quarterback's health.prin·ci·ple (prns-pl)
n.
1. A basic truth, law, or assumption: the principles of democracy.
2.
a. A rule or standard, especially of good behavior: a man of principle.
b. The collectivity of moral or ethical standards or judgments: a decision based on principle rather than expediency.
3. A fixed or predetermined policy or mode of action.
4. A basic or essential quality or element determining intrinsic nature or characteristic behavior: the principle of self-preservation.
5. A rule or law concerning the functioning of natural phenomena or mechanical processes: the principle of jet propulsion.
6. Chemistry One of the elements that compose a substance, especially one that gives some special quality or effect.
7. A basic source. See Usage Note at principal.
Idioms:
in principle
With regard to the basics: an idea that is acceptable in principle.
on principle
According to or because of principle.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, alteration of Old French principe, from Latin prncipium, from prnceps, prncip-, leader, emperor; see per1 in Indo-European roots.]
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
I tried to just keep reading and keep quiet on this love /hate thread , Have enjoyed reading it , lots to think about , my how its makes you think !
Jesus being the prince of peace , died at the cross , so many more would come in to the Kingdom of God , that is NOT OF THIS WORLD , this was the Fathers plan and Jesus being sent here was so obedient to the will of God and died to this world ,
because its always been the principle /standard and LAW that the innocent die to the hands /powers of the guilty , this PROPHECY , has always been the pattern thought out this mortal existence
we see this in the news daily , how evil and the prince of this world prospers and gets its way , from the sacrifice of innocent blood , consider the wars and every evil act ever done from that pattern , Cain and Abel and you have to ask did Cain Love his brother as himself ?
I wanted to show how Jesus is the PRINCE /PRINCIPAL or chief and FIRST in rank and class as the LEADER TO LIFE [KINGDOM OF GOD ]
AND how the battles are by the standard or Law principle of Love , both serve this dual purpose
we are not battling against flesh and blood , but by powers and principalities in HIGH places , that we will not fail the test because we are being protected by the Lords power over the evil of this worlds ways , the scriptures are the WORD OF TRUTH to reinforce it and By Gods Spirit we will prevail , believing the truth and dying TO sin , NOT IN sin . Jesus took that sin and nailed it to HIS CROSS , that we would not have to bear that death , but die TO sin , not IN sin .. to me that is the difference between them
from the ones chosen for HIS PURPOSE out of the world ....
my goodness so much to consider when you think about it ...
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
Eph 6:12 For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.Therefore, put on every piece of God's armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm.
1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.1Pe 3:17 Remember, it is better to suffer for doing good, if that is what God wants, than to suffer for doing wrong! Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
1Pe 4:19 So if you are suffering in a manner that pleases God, keep on doing what is right, and trust your lives to the God who created you, for he will never fail you.
For those who believe , we SEE JESUS , our King
peace in Jesus [the head of all authority ] & /the body of Christ [His church in Truth ] and the two principle laws that all are hung upon including us , 1. Love God first , with your all and 2. your neighbour as yourself [your all]
Amen, Sheila. What a beautiful resurrection day sermon!
Satan achieved his position by lying, murder, and deceit. But, Jesus, who as the Son of God could have just been appointed his position, earned it by dying for us on the cross, thereby proving his great love for us, his great trustworthiness, and his willingness to do whatever it takes to make it possible for us to be with him forever.
Worthy is the Lamb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x2fSxOeij4
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
--Rev 5
Ah Glory! Sisters, You made my Sunday sundae :o)
We often say "Jesus hung out with sinners". He did/does spend time with them (us).
But He also said this; if a brother sins against you, go to him. If he won't listen, take one or two others with you to talk to him. If he won't listen, tell the church. If he still won't listen, treat him as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector. Matthew 18:17
He loved the "very" sinful woman at the well. In parting, He told her to sin no more. Wonder what would have happened if next time He saw her, she'd had a couple more different men she was sleeping with. Then a third time, He perceived/she told Him she had even more. Do you think He'd just keep "hanging around" with her?
I truly believe Jesus hangs around us sinners - to CHANGE us.
"Treat him as a pagan or tax collector." How did Jesus tell us to treat the pagans and tax collectors? How did He tell us to treat our enemies? "Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who persecute you." And He said then we would be true sons of God because that is how our Father in heaven treats people.
We will be changed. His love will change us. Because He loves us.
someone pointed out the woman at the well and the adulteress were 2 different women. my mistake. so the example is of the adulteress. I also wanted to add, "if the 2nd and 3rd time she said, nah, I got this, I don't need anything from you".
Lomarah, I believe what you say has merit and a measure of truth, but I don't believe it's taking in the whole account(s). Do you believe Jesus was also speaking through Paul when He said at some point don't even eat with them? Also, Jesus said to His disciples that if those they spoke to didn't hear/accept them, to dust the shoes off their feet and move on.
Love - scriptural love. Do you believe Jesus was all love? I do too. Do I think we always know what true love is or looks like? No, and I'll likely spend the rest of my natural life trying to understand how to apply it properly, sometimes getting it "right", sometimes messing it up. So with us both agreeing Jesus is all love - I believe Jesus was love when He spent time with the woman, being kind to her, not villifying her, not being mean to her, forgiving her. However, I also believe He was love when He said "go and sin no more". I believe He's also love when He warned us to not resume certain sinful behaviors, "lest something worse come upon you". I'm NOT, NOT, NOT talking about extremes I believe there's a spiritual, scriptural balance that sound doctrine supports. So I don't believe in hating people, unkindly rejecting them (even "cutting off" at some point can be loving and done with love - if the woman insisted on keeping sinning, Jesus wouldn't have been mean or hateful to her, and He's our pattern.) However, I also don't believe ALWAYS just being silent - even to the point of avoiding an issue when given the Spirit-led opportunity (which I DO!) - or ESPECIALLY as is being done in ever-widening and encroaching circles (which is what REALLY concerns me societally and within the church), saying "ah, it's OK. God didn't really mean that. After all, He's love, so don't worry about it".
You know, I've been thinking more about Willy. God didn't need to tell Willy he was sinning. Willy already knew. Someone had already told him (maybe even some inappropriately so, being condemning, angry, etc.). But having been exposed to scriptural teachings, he already knew he was a sinner. Compare/contrast that to Paul, who God told him directly that Saul/Paul was persecuting Him. Paul didn't know - he thought he was doing right - so God let Him know otherwise - in His love - as part of His changing him. :2c:
:thumbsup: Agreed. Every circumstance is different. That's why we need the Lord's leading in all things. :gimmefive:
Quote from: lomarah on April 02, 2013, 09:35:08 PM
:thumbsup: Agreed. Every circumstance is different. That's why we need the Lord's leading in all things. :gimmefive:
AGREED!!!!! :dsunny:
That's really the crux of what I'm thinking and saying. Not one isolated scripture, or even scriptural concept takes in all things, every person, and every situation. God is love, so love "loves" :laughing7: - and it speaks the truth.
I believe the very best summary of all this is the Holy Spirit through Paul saying, "speak the truth in love". So for me, our task is finding out - each of us before God and within the scriptures - what do both :2c:those things look like, and how do they tie together. :2c:
Speak the truth in love requires having the love of God within us, pouring out to share (your spending time with Him references) and as w/p says, spending time in the Word - really open to it and the Spirit's leading and interpretation - so we know what the truth really is. :gimmefive:
Jab, I really think you nailed it. I also think it's why I get defensive about law, judgmental believers, coming down too hard on sinners. I get this image of street corner signs about burning in hell for the sin du jour. I get visions of brutal honesty, or going up to strangers in the mall judging their lives.
When truth is delivered it should come from a relationship with that person that has built upon caring, love and good service towards that individual. Anything less doesn't work, and merely creates an environment of distrust and antimosity.
Lest we forget, Jesus wasn't quietly and passively 'speaking the truth in love' to the money changers when he turned over their tables, shouted at them that they had turned his Father's house into a den of thieves, and drove them out of there with whips.
Sometimes it's important to take a very clear stand on things, no matter who you alienate.
That is why he says, Count the cost.
He only got angry when the moneychangers were doing it in Jesus' Fathers house.
Kinda like if you caught the pastor with a person in the very church having sex with someone not his wife (male OR female) - see I'm not predjudiced except against sin. :Peace2:
Jesus coulda taken out the guys nailing him(his body temple) to the wood but it seems the sanctity of the temple of his fathers house was very important. Besides, if there were no outburst like that, some of the publics perception of Jesus being a kinda pantywaist hippie would tend to be reinforced instead of the truly man's man that he was
..interesting thread! :mthumbsup: :smile:
Jesus only displayed anger aginst corrupt leaders, greedy merchants and shepherds. This is an undisputable fact.
The closest thing to anger Jesus expressed to His disciples was exasperation at their unbelief.
Jesus did not ever go around telling "sinners" they were going to hell, or in any way rail at them or even condemn them.
He did make defining statements about righteousness and unrighteousness.
Jesus "took on" the powers that be. He spoke out against injustice and hypocrisy that they conspired to murder Him because His popularity among the people was so great.
When I see sign that say "Jesus or Hell" and the like, it disgusts me, because it is not the Spirit of Christ, or the message of the gospel- just the muddy water of polluted religion masquerading as the gospel. The wages of sin are death. A friend of mine used to say.
"Speak life. Death comes by itself."
EW :thumbsup:
I was thinking last night that in the old testament, God is seemingly portrayed as somewhat harsh and a no nonsense-take no prisoners approach...yet- one would be hard pressed to find any indication whatsoever of anything remotely resembling society's version of "hell" anywhere in the OT.
On the other hand, Jesus is portrayed as God in the flesh and an incredible, loving, caring, forgiving, merciful person that anyone would be hard pressed to even imagine Jesus tormenting anyone without a good purpose. Certainly not unending. :2c:
Thanks Shawn, I agree. I believe the truth is somewhere between Westboro "Baptist Church" (screaming/condemning) and Unitarian Universalist "Church" ("Satanist? That's OK, wanna preach in this morning's service?" :doh:)
----------
Interesting things to think about. Weren't the money changers, Sadducees, and Pharissees "sinners"? :Chinscratch: That makes me think of those within the church that teach false doctrine - Paul (and Jesus) came down pretty hard on them. (Judgment begins at the house of God?). IMO, it's an awesome responsibility to be in the ecclesia and have influence on others.
I do agree, Jesus typically pointed out sin in a gentle, helpful way - forgiving, and showing them a better way. He said He didn't condemn, His Words either condemned (if rejected, consequences) or brought life (if received, "welcome to the Kingdom"). He is described as both Lamb and Lion, but of course His ways, Words, judgment, and communion with the Holy Spirit was perfect, so He knew exactly what to do, how, and when. We're going to struggle. Blessings.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 03, 2013, 12:07:54 AM
Jesus only displayed anger aginst corrupt leaders, greedy merchants and shepherds. This is an undisputable fact.
yeah. We could use a bit more of that these days, couldn't we?
QuoteThe closest thing to anger Jesus expressed to His disciples was exasperation at their unbelief.
Jesus did not ever go around telling "sinners" they were going to hell, or in any way rail at them or even condemn them.
He did make defining statements about righteousness and unrighteousness.
He didn't have to, their condemnation was built into the equation--those who rejected him were condemned already.
Maybe the same is true for us, for all I know.
QuoteJesus "took on" the powers that be. He spoke out against injustice and hypocrisy that they conspired to murder Him because His popularity among the people was so great.
Exactly. That's why he says if they're trying to kill you, you've got it right. :laugh:
Murder most foul- my vindication is written in the blood upon your hands.
Cain, WHere is your brother?
Am I my brother's keeper?
Your brother Able's blood is crying out from the ground.
Quote from: ded2daworld on April 03, 2013, 12:28:54 AM
EW :thumbsup:
I was thinking last night that in the old testament, God is seemingly portrayed as somewhat harsh and a no nonsense-take no prisoners approach...yet- one would be hard pressed to find any indication whatsoever of anything remotely resembling society's version of "hell" anywhere in the OT.
On the other hand, Jesus is portrayed as God in the flesh and an incredible, loving, caring, forgiving, merciful person that anyone would be hard pressed to even imagine Jesus tormenting anyone without a good purpose. Certainly not unending. :2c:
Amen. When the veil is pulled back, and God's plan of the ages is seen from the perspective of completion- I think we will see that God has been dealing with "mankind" since the beginning. Certainly He also deals with individuals, but He also teaches families, communities, cities, nations, and the whole race of men through the dealings of His wisdom and outstretched hand.
The difference we see in how God dealt with men under the old covenant is also a difference in "mankind" after the rending of the veil (in the creators torn flesh) and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The stages of God's RESTORATION of ALL THINGS beginning right from the beginning, and realized as each epoch/era/aion is fulfilled.
Some of the things we read seem barbarian to us today- but in those days there was a different reality, a darker stronger veil over the hearts of "mankind". A harsher hand needed to put the bit and bridle in the mouth of the "mule".
Quote from: eaglesway on April 03, 2013, 07:25:05 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on April 03, 2013, 12:28:54 AM
EW :thumbsup:
I was thinking last night that in the old testament, God is seemingly portrayed as somewhat harsh and a no nonsense-take no prisoners approach...yet- one would be hard pressed to find any indication whatsoever of anything remotely resembling society's version of "hell" anywhere in the OT.
On the other hand, Jesus is portrayed as God in the flesh and an incredible, loving, caring, forgiving, merciful person that anyone would be hard pressed to even imagine Jesus tormenting anyone without a good purpose. Certainly not unending. :2c:
Amen. When the veil is pulled back, and God's plan of the ages is seen from the perspective of completion- I think we will see that God has been dealing with "mankind" since the beginning. Certainly He also deals with individuals, but He also teaches families, communities, cities, nations, and the whole race of men through the dealings of His wisdom and outstretched hand.
The difference we see in how God dealt with men under the old covenant is also a difference in "mankind" after the rending of the veil (in the creators torn flesh) and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The stages of God's RESTORATION of ALL THINGS beginning right from the beginning, and realized as each epoch/era/aion is fulfilled.
Some of the things we read seem barbarian to us today- but in those days there was a different reality, a darker stronger veil over the hearts of "mankind". A harsher hand needed to put the bit and bridle in the mouth of the "mule".
God hasn't changed His mind about right and wrong. The thing we now have to tell people is your sins, even that for which death is the just reward, have been paid for by the death of God's only begotten son. Sin is not less and punishment is not less. It is that Jesus paid it all. We can freely come to God in the righteousness of Christ. Accepting God's payment means God now reckons us righteous. He imputes righteous to us. This reckoning, or imputing is explained in scripture (Rom 4) as what happened to Abraham when he believed God. He had no children and he and his wife were over 100 years old. Then God said to Abraham that he was the father of millions that is, many nations. Because he believed (without any evidence of children and in spite of their condition,) God imputed righteousness unto him. This is what he is doing to sinners today, sinners who have no evidence of righteousness. We believe in the death of Jesus for us and we have imputed righteousness. It is God that justifies. The gift of the Holy Spirit that comes with this righteousness of God is also freely given.
Quote from: eaglesway
The difference we see in how God dealt with men under the old covenant is also a difference in "mankind" after the rending of the veil (in the creators torn flesh) and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The stages of God's RESTORATION of ALL THINGS beginning right from the beginning, and realized as each epoch/era/aion is fulfilled.
Some of the things we read seem barbarian to us today- but in those days there was a different reality, a darker stronger veil over the hearts of "mankind". A harsher hand needed to put the bit and bridle in the mouth of the "mule".
Eaglesway, while reading this post I thought of something.
The Old Testament was all about law, the New all about grace. Maybe God was showing how great the difference was between the two, by his actions toward those of the OT verses those of the New. The consequences of the OT, the rewards of the NT. Maybe the reason God was harsh in the OT, he was showing man how futile and dangerous it was for man to rely on himself instead of God and the consequences he would have to endure because of it.
Don't know if I explained this the way it should be? Will have to think on it some more.
CHB
One thing to remember is that all of the saints in the OT operated under grace. They had the indwelt Holy Spirit, as well. They knew Jesus.
Without that, then it is all just a bunch of rules to memorize, which is why the body of the Israelites kept failing at it.
Please Molly, I am in agreement with you and mean no offense whatsoever:
One other thing to remember is that all of the saints in the new testament operate under grace. We have the indwelt Holy Spirit as well. We know Jesus.Without that, then it is all just a bunch of rules to memorize, which is why the modern church keeps failing at it. :Peace2:
Quote from: CHB on April 03, 2013, 05:50:06 PM
Quote from: eaglesway
The difference we see in how God dealt with men under the old covenant is also a difference in "mankind" after the rending of the veil (in the creators torn flesh) and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The stages of God's RESTORATION of ALL THINGS beginning right from the beginning, and realized as each epoch/era/aion is fulfilled.
Some of the things we read seem barbarian to us today- but in those days there was a different reality, a darker stronger veil over the hearts of "mankind". A harsher hand needed to put the bit and bridle in the mouth of the "mule".
Eaglesway, while reading this post I thought of something.
The Old Testament was all about law, the New all about grace. Maybe God was showing how great the difference was between the two, by his actions toward those of the OT verses those of the New. The consequences of the OT, the rewards of the NT. Maybe the reason God was harsh in the OT, he was showing man how futile and dangerous it was for man to rely on himself instead of God and the consequences he would have to endure because of it.
Don't know if I explained this the way it should be? Will have to think on it some more.
CHB
Honestly, ChB, I think what you wrote is one of the most succinct expressions of what God is teaching "mankind" through the ages and why He allows futility and self-will, that I have ever read. :o)
iMO it is all about a broken and a contrite heart. Individually, and eventually, corporately among every sentient creature of God.
Brokenness is the only gateway of love. God knows better than any- He was broken as He watched His son suffer and die on a cross for His creation.
Only a broken heart can forgive; can be humble; can be tolerant; can be generous; can be healed.
All of mankind is being broken by the Rock that doesn't roll.
"If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"
Thanks :thumbsup:
the old Law is harsh judgment , and die without mercy under 2 or 3 witnesses
thought of the grace of God though Christ our mercy Hebrews 7 NLT
15 This change has been made very clear since a different priest, who is like Melchizedek, has appeared. 16 Jesus became a priest, not by meeting the physical requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. 17 And the psalmist pointed this out when he prophesied,
"You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."[c]
18 Yes, the old requirement about the priesthood was set aside because it was weak and useless. 19 For the law never made anything perfect. But now we have confidence in a better hope, through which we draw near to God.20 This new system was established with a solemn oath. Aaron's descendants became priests without such an oath, 21 but there was an oath regarding Jesus. For God said to him,
"The Lord has taken an oath and will not break his vow:
'You are a priest forever.'
22 Because of this oath, Jesus is the one who guarantees this better covenant with God.
23 There were many priests under the old system, for death prevented them from remaining in office.
24 But because Jesus lives forever, his priesthood lasts forever. 25 Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save[e] those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.
26 He is the kind of high priest we need because he is holy and blameless, unstained by sin. He has been set apart from sinners and has been given the highest place of honor in heaven.
Galations 4 Hagar and Sarah
Tell me you who want to be under the law,are you not aware of what the law says?
His son of the slave woman was born in the ordinary way..but his son by the free woman was born
as the result of a promise.
wit in the city..until the Father sends what He promised. The token of the spirit..is the promise of God
that we are to be raised up in the image of the Son..born of the free woman
These things may be taken figuretively for the women represent two covenants.....one covenant is
from Mt Sinai...and bears children who are to be slaves;this is Hagar,now Hagar stands for Mt sINAI
IN aRABIA and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem,because she is in slavery with her children
But the Jerusalem that is above is free and she is our mother.
...now you brothers,like Isaac..are children of promise..at that time the son born in the ordinary way
persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit..it is the same now.
but what does the scripture say? Get rid of the slave woman and her son,for the slave womn's son
WILL NEVER SHARE IN THE INHERITANCE WITH THE FREE WOMANS SON
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
(Rom 8:14-22)
Grrrroooan! Oh you foolish Galatians, Who has bewitched you?
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
(Gal 3:1-3)
Love flourishes in the Spirit. It strangles under the law.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 04, 2013, 11:08:47 PM
....
Love flourishes in the Spirit. It strangles under the law.
Amen, I believe it's the fruit of the Spirit that God is most after, within all humans (the goal that is). I don't thinks the gifts of the Spirit begin to compare to the fruit(s) of the Spirit as listed in Galatians chapter 5. I believe if the Fruit of the Spirit was flowing more thought God's children, the world would be a far different place.. I agree "the law" strangles the Spirit, and I think it leads often to downright meanness! And dislike as opposed to love and true affection.
Quote from: sheila on April 04, 2013, 06:43:23 PM
Galations 4 Hagar and Sarah
Tell me you who want to be under the law,are you not aware of what the law says?
snipped also for brevity.. :gsmile:
But the Jerusalem that is above is free and she is our mother.
Makes aLL the difference! I also agree with the Spirit in our heart which cries "Abba father" or that is "Father, my Father!" The seal of God upon the heart and also the pledge, or down payment, and guarantee (as pledge) that all that has been promised will be inherited..
Quote from: eaglesway
The difference we see in how God dealt with men under the old covenant is also a difference in "mankind" after the rending of the veil (in the creators torn flesh) and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The stages of God's RESTORATION of ALL THINGS beginning right from the beginning, and realized as each epoch/era/aion is fulfilled.
Some of the things we read seem barbarian to us today- but in those days there was a different reality, a darker stronger veil over the hearts of "mankind". A harsher hand needed to put the bit and bridle in the mouth of the "mule".
I was thinking about that just today, how the world and nature of mankind itself changed (upward a bit) after Jesus..
Quote from: rosered on April 04, 2013, 05:49:51 PM
All of mankind is being broken by the Rock that doesn't roll.
:iagree: awesome!
We probably all talk to a lot of folks who have bought into the trend of blaming and judging God! Because the Old testament seems harsh.. and of course it was, because of Eaglesway's thought above on the barbarism of mankind.. and also to somewhat prepare a tiny place for Messiah to be born into.. and also "the law" does show us what God likes and dislikes and approves and disapproves of.. It's His world, His blueprint, his prerogative.. Of course Jesus is the "express image of His person, the perfect outraying of His nature.." Who said "let whoever is without sin, throw the first stone". - Also to mature believers, is the insight that "the law" was a tutor (babysitter) until grace.. hopefully we no longer have to get up in the morning and remind ourselves, i will not murder today.. etc. The sermon on the mt shows how it is no longer good enough to not murder, but we are not to be angry (dislike) without cause.. I feel like the Lord reminds us that it's the fruit of the spirit He wants in us, most of all (true affection, caring, longsuffering, etc)..
Quote from: ded2daworld on April 03, 2013, 12:28:54 AM
I was thinking last night that in the old testament, God is seemingly portrayed as somewhat harsh and a no nonsense-take no prisoners approach...yet- one would be hard pressed to find any indication whatsoever of anything remotely resembling society's version of "hell" anywhere in the OT.
On the other hand, Jesus is portrayed as God in the flesh and an incredible, loving, caring, forgiving, merciful person that anyone would be hard pressed to even imagine Jesus tormenting anyone without a good purpose. Certainly not unending. :2c:
Amen!! ...and that's as far back as I went.. what a great discussion from all!
..but the world is moving back toward barbarism.. isn't it? ...we've had the falling away.. I used to be involved with politics.. seeking to slow things down in any tiny fashion.. but I'm of a mind now that it's too late.. (a little off topic, maybe.. sorry :smile: )
tell me if I'm wrong.. the new covenant produces love.. and it basically has one commandment/rule and law.. to Love God deeply and genuinely.. because loving God we will pursue and draw near to Him, which is His whole plan, drawing all near.. and drawing near to Him will fill us with Him, who is love.. and love works no ill.. does no harm.. is faithful (another fruit of the spirit).. By "the law" we are in the law of sin (imperfection) and death (imo, nonlife, lack of).. but by the New Covenant which is "believing", we can enter, by faith, by believing, the law of life in the Spirit.. "to be led by the Spirit of God" and be a child of God.. should we fall short (like we don't!yah right) we simply carry on with loving our God.. I think it's a symptom of the law to try to look right.. to compete.. to be after giving an impression of holiness.. or I'm ok.. etc.. all that is burned up and consumed in the fire of God's purifying Spirit as we let Him draw us near and let ourselves respond to Him.. We become free.. and real.. seekers can see the difference.. (church/the law? another thread :smile: made me want to conform.. I became a phony!)
Marie Glen said, "..but the world is moving back toward barbarism.. isn't it? ...we've had the falling away.. I used to be involved with politics.. seeking to slow things down in any tiny fashion.. but I'm of a mind now that it's too late.. (a little off topic, maybe.. sorry )
After reading some political cartoons from 50, 60 , 70. and 80 years ago, I realized absolutely nothing has changed. I no longer hope for, or expect, anything to change politically. It will just fluctuate from bad to worse till Jesus comers back. :2c: :sigh:
Imagine spending all eternity (never-ending!!!!!) with all those barbarians, politicians, lawyers, et'ers ....
WHAT A GREAT, POWERFUL, MERCIFUL, LONGSUFFERING, LOVING GOD WE SERVE.
Imagine spending all eternity (never-ending!!!!!) with all those barbarians, politicians, lawyers, et'ers ....
Yes can imagine spending all of etrnity with the likes of me.
Imagine the ET group meeting the UR group in the Kingdom:
ET: "We didn't think you'd make it!" :sigh:
UR: "Yeah, now you get to fellowship with forever!" :friendstu: