Love/Hate

[Molly]

What were the first words out of the mouths of both John the baptist and Jesus when he began his ministry?

'Repent'...

[shawn]

Yeah that's what I mean jab when I say we need to be led by the Spirit. If the Spirit leads, do whatever He's telling you to!! If He is NOT leading, do nothing! If you are unsure, run to a closet (LOL  :banana: ) and pray til you ARE sure!

It is not the fact of a sin being a sin that is not okay in my eyes. It is when the pot is calling the kettle black, with no love for the kettle whatsoever. It is the "YOU ARE WRONG, HOMOSEXUALS! HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN!" attitude, the calling something wrong "because the Bible says so" attitude. If there's no love there, if there is no leading by the Spirit of LOVE then we are not just sounding like a clanging gong and cymbal, we are also turning them away from even wanting anything to do with God or the Bible. (See the video.)

And actually, going back to the video, why don't we take an example from God Himself who did not go around preaching to Willie, but who assured him of His love time and time again until he was so sure of it and filled with it that he was changed from the inside out.

I feel like we've all beaten this horse to death over and over and over again. My two cents: seek the Lord on it and in all things. Every situation and circumstance and person are different and only He will know what to do with it. And above all else, love.

Goodnight.  :HeartThrob:

Amen!

I think a bit of straw man is going on here.  I haven't read one person say homosexuality isn't a sin.  I do believe we are in disagreement about the role of believers in "taking a stance against homosexuality"

[lomarah]

I wonder if Jesus didn't use the fact that he ate with sinners to teach them things? I also wonder just what kind of sinners he ate with? We are all considered sinners, these may have been just the everyday joe of that time.

I do see that the world which includes Christian leaders and Churches have become more and more accepting of things that the Bible condems. Everyone is looking the other way, we can't say much against anything, if we do we are considered a meddler, raciest, bigot, showing any love, or being disrespectful. 

I wonder how many of the things that get pushed under the rug now will be destroyed by fire? If it is something that has to be destroyed by fire, doesn't that mean that it is wrong? What is so bad about saying something is wrong?

Just my thoughts.

CHB

Again why do we feel the need?  The only "disputable" sin in just about everyone's eyes is homosexuality.  Who doesn't know it's wrong to cheat, lie, steal, kill?  We just sound like broken records.

I propose this...the church SHOULD stand up for what is right, and they start with themselves.  If we first look at ourselves, striving for holiness as an extension of relationship, willing to admit to one another our weaknesses, maybe just maybe some of the world will follow our example of self examination.

Why do we feel the need? The same reason I feel the need to get the word out that the whole world will be saved and because I love everybody. Are we not suppose to say anything about anything? If you saw someone going down the road driving erratically what would you do, say, "well, I will turn around and go in a different direction", not doing anything to find out why or try to stop them before they killed somebody? "I will just let them see how well I am driving" Is that love?

If you were walking down the street and two men were raping a woman, would you say "well, I will just look the other way, I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love?

Do you not teach your kids...if you have any...against the dangers of the world? Or, do you just let them do whatever they want without any teaching and hope they will learn from your actions. Is that love?

Would you try to stop an alcoholic from drinking a pint of liquor, a drug addict from sniffing...or whatever they do with it...crack cocaine? Or, say "oh well, why worry about them I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love, or just plain selfishness?

I say "no that is not love, it is just the opposite, it is also selfish thinking", to all of these things. Maybe we have a different perspective on what love is?

CHB

The church says don't do, yet they do.  They say homosexuality is  the worst of all sins, while turning a blind eye to the divorce, premarital sex and pornographic/chemical addictions within their own ranks.

It's not that I don't believe sin ever needs to be preached, but I think it's kind of like a diabetic focusing on their infected necrotic toe.  The toe is merely a symptom of the root disease.  The diabetic can focus all they want on that toe, maybe even getting it better for a season, but it will return or the root disease will manifest in a new way and eventually causes death.  The physical is a shadow of the spiritual.

Instead, we should be focusing on the root disease, and that disease is a separation in our minds from the love of God.  We hide in the garden, covering our nakedness.  We believe we are too sinful to come out from behind the bushes.  But, God calls us by name, wanting his children to come out...to love us, brush us off, love us how we are...then change us into his likeness.  The disease is self centered guilt and shame that keeps us from seeking the face of God. 

The exposing of sin, only makes sin more sinful.  Instead today, I seek the face of God knowing he loves me and every human on this planet.  And THAT is what I tell people.  Relationship heals, and changes.  It focuses on the solution to the root disease.  If the church wishes to look at the infected toe so be it.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Yessir!!!!! Awesome analogy!!! And why do we fix the necrotic toe?? For the love of that person!!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[shawn]

What were the first words out of the mouths of both John the baptist and Jesus when he began his ministry?

Repent...

And what is repentence?  It starts with an acknowledgement of the Cross, grace, Gods agape love for man.  It's a response to that...not some sort of white knuckle response from us.  Repentence is a change of heart.  A change of action follows the change of heart, not the other way around.

[lomarah]

(And not because it's "wrong" to have a necrotic toe... LOL)

[CHB]

Also, is man on man rape, worse than man on woman rape?

I think the Bible calls it sodomy, abominations.

Rape is rape.  Sex outside of marriage is sex outside of marriage.  Somehow we believe divorce and premarital sex are lesser sins than homosexuality.

I don't think that and I don't think anyone else on here thinks that either.

We can politicize and segregate sin all we wish.  If that serves the church in a way that grows us upon love, then I guess I just don't see it.

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid".

CHB

[Molly]

It takes either a highly trained reconstructive surgeon to fix a necrotic foot or a garden variety surgeon to lop it off.

Either way, you have to deal with it or it will kill the body.

[lomarah]

What were the first words out of the mouths of both John the baptist and Jesus when he began his ministry?

Repent...

And what is repentence?  It starts with an acknowledgement of the Cross, grace, Gods agape love for man.  It's a response to that...not some sort of white knuckle response from us.  Repentence is a change of heart.  A change of action follows the change of heart, not the other way around.

Yes, yes, yes! Has everyone watched the video?? Because the Lord focused NOTHING on the mans sin. He focused NOTHING on it. Rather He focused His love upon him and changed him and healed him from the inside out.

[lomarah]

It takes either a highly trained reconstructive surgeon to fix a necrotic foot or a garden variety surgeon to lop it off.

Either way, you have to deal with it or it will kill the body.

YES. And how is sin overcome?? By preaching against the sin?? NOOOOOOO!!! By the love of God!!!  :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

[lomarah]

Please listen! Months back the Lord told me He was going to start lightening my burdens, the burdens that had been loaded on to me by Babylon. One of the major burdens He's unloaded is feeling the need to preach to people or "witness" to people. WE cannot change a single person! ONLY God can!!! Please listen, I was quite serious when I said we all need to get into our quiet places with the Lord and to be changed ourselves, to have the planks removed by Him, and THEN He can use us as He sees fit to minister to and change the world!! It's so exciting what He's doing in this hour and I am BEGGING everyone to get into their quiet places and seek His face, forget about trying to do your own works (that are not going to bear fruit anyhow) and be filled with the Holy Spirit so that He can truly use us to change the world!!

[CHB]

Spirit so that He can truly use us to change the world!!

lomarah, how is he going to use us to change the world if we can't say anything as to how it needs to be changed? We'll be too busy sticking our heads in the sand.

CHB

[lomarah]

NO! We will be too busy LOVING the world!!! Healing, setting free. Think of Jesus and the disciples. Do you see?? And it's not about not saying anything. It's about saying things AS LED BY HIM!! See??

I'm sorry for all of the exclamations but I am extremely excited by what God is doing as of late. I long for us all to be close to Him and to be walking by His Spirit, for all of us to be led by His Spirit, to taste the freedom and the joy of being a part of His changing the world.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

He is doing awesome things!!!

[CHB]

NO! We will be too busy LOVING the world!!! Healing, setting free. Think of Jesus and the disciples. Do you see?? And it's not about not saying anything. It's about saying things AS LED BY HIM!! See??

lomarah, I feel like I have been saying things as led by him. How are we going to heal, set free, unless we all get rid of the fleshly things that beset us?

I'm sorry for all of the exclamations but I am extremely excited by what God is doing as of late. I long for us all to be close to Him and to be walking by His Spirit, for all of us to be led by His Spirit, to taste the freedom and the joy of being a part of His changing the world.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Don't worry about the exclamations.  :girlheart: Doesn't changing the world mean to get rid of the way things are now such as all of our fleshly desires?

He is doing awesome things!!!

Yes he is.

CHB

[lomarah]

Yeah CHB! We do things as He leads! And the healing and setting free is what gets rid of the fleshly things that beset us!  :cloud9: :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Hopefully we'll all care and take into serious consideration what the scriptures say.  We all stand before the Lord and give account, so I'll just sum up my own thoughts in this whole thing as, I believe we're supposed to speak the truth, in love.  Everyone can decide for themselves.  Blessings. 

Ephesians 4:1  As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.


James 5:19,20    Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,  let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Galatians 6:1  Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.

The next passage is if a sin is against a person in particular - Matthew 18:15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

[onlytruth]

What would happen if God used a gay person to set a person free or start a revival?What would our response be?
God used Rahab ,obvious case,.All things have been begun by God with people that weren't perfect.
He might even use us!

[jabcat]

Well, we've talked all around this, IMO.  I started the thread because it's been weighing on my heart.  Before I move on,  I'll lay my understandings out on the line directly, and then of course everyone can do with them as they wish.   :HeartThrob:

I honestly think some things about these recent discussions are attributing our own thoughts and feelings to it, rather than what is written,  sound doctrine.  I'm searching my own heart, and perhaps I've done it too. NOT that there's not PIECES of truth here and there mixed in, but in total, not taking in the whole counsel of God.

Can someone please show me in the scriptures - taking into account multiple scriptures and aspects of it - not just one line out of context, where people are saved only by another human loving them?  Can someone do the same with the idea that people are only saved through relationship? 

No one directly answered my question, "what if I started a thread teaching X sin was OK, and encouraging people to do it".  I believe that if that happened, someone should be led by the Holy Spirit to contend with me for sound doctrine - in love - showing me what the scriptures say about it, and encouraging me to come out of the sin of deceit and get my beliefs back in line with the scriptures.

I hugged a lesbian today that I like, 3 different times during my grandson's birthday party.  I have warm, loving feelings toward her.  I've known her now for over 2 years.  But I've never had the courage to say anything to her in terms of trying to help pull her out of her sinful lifestyle, even if given the opportunity.  Wimped out.  I'm pretty sure my just listening to her, being friendly with her, loving her and hugging her, hasn't saved or delivered her. We're buddies, but she's still doing exactly what she was doing when I met her.   I submit that Willy in the video, was NOT saved because someone was nice to him, "only loved him".  I think continuing to stress it in that manner is throwing things off target.  Let's be factual. Willy was saved because God went directly and got him, according to His will - like He did Paul (although He did tell Paul he was persecuting Him).  That's God's business if He decides to go directly and grab someone.  But He also tells us to speak the truth in love, and His Word indicates He wants to use us to help pull people from their sin, to contend for sound doctrine, to talk to a person directly WHEN IT'S APPROPRIATE, always being sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading.  Not in anger or trying to hurt or condemn them, but to love them by helping them.  I've never felt led to say anything directly to my lesbian friend (or I missed the opportunity) but I'm starting to wonder if my silence and friendship has served a purpose (showing love and acceptance of her AS A PERSON), but that I might also be wasting time and at some point, need to take advantage of a next opportunity rather than smile and keep silent.  One day she was talking about church, what she thought about the scriptures in regards to her being in an open, ongoing homosexual relationship, what the church taught, etc.  I remember sitting there, basically just listening, smiling, figuratively patting her on the back.  Now I realize I either probably should have explored that more with her and shared my understanding of what God wants in that regard, how He does love us, and that means He wants to change and deliver us.  So it seems to me that I'm missing the mark regarding the scriptures posted 2 posts above.  I need to go before the Lord about that and be sensitive to His leading going forward.  I admit, it frightens me and gives me doubt.  I don't want to upset her, have her turn on me, talk about me, etc.  Who's problem is that?  The Word's, or mine?

Just like all of us, I answer to the Lord on these things, but we are to try to help each other and lately I've been convicted of my looking the other way - actually, while looking at what's happening in the world and within the church (stated in the OP) of recently throwing my hands up and giving up.  Paraphrasing, God basically said, "no, no - salt and light [if the salt has lost its savor, it's good for nothing but to be trampled under foot"].    I realize this stuff doesn't make friends of anyone who doesn't want to hear it, but God bless and I'm working on expressing these things in love.  I need more love.  Some of you put me to shame.  And I realize my part starts with me, examining ME and attempting to be transparent myself before the Lord - of which I fail.  James.

[Watch/Pray]

Thanks Jabcat for a very heartfelt post.  It seems to me that the very rules for posting inevitably lead to more of a sharing of personal thoughts and feelings...a sharing of opinions... 

Just a thought... maybe have a board for sharing opinions/experiences/feelings/thoughts as they relate to Jesus Savior of all men...

and another for sharing "findings" or "treasures" from our study of the Scriptures as they relate to Jesus Savior of all men

Mixing even two good things often leads to confusion ... debate?

[shawn]

Also, is man on man rape, worse than man on woman rape?

I think the Bible calls it sodomy, abominations.

Rape is rape.  Sex outside of marriage is sex outside of marriage.  Somehow we believe divorce and premarital sex are lesser sins than homosexuality.

I don't think that and I don't think anyone else on here thinks that either.

We can politicize and segregate sin all we wish.  If that serves the church in a way that grows us upon love, then I guess I just don't see it.

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid".

CHB

Then why is it our focus?  We turn a blind eye towards the teens in the youth group (kids will be kids) having sex, the pastors, elders, parishioners looking at porn...pew gossip, and a general unloving attitude for anyone who engages one of those "really bad sins".  And we wonder why the world considers Christians hypocrites?  If the shoe fits.

[shawn]

CHB...of course we don't turn a blind eye.  It should call us ALL into repentence.  But, how?  What is the solution?  The calling out of one specific group, who engages a sin we find more detestable than others?  How about ignoring our own sin? 

The command of Christ was to take the plank out of our own eye FIRST.  Is there any sin in your life you detest that pops up from time to time?  Did you repent of it?  Then why did you engage it again?  Does that make you a bad person?  Does that make you less a son of God?  No, that sin reminds us we are human, still in these frail vessels of flesh.  It reminds us to turn our eyes to Christ, instead of one of our selfish endeavors.  Our sin should remind us of our need for a Savior.  Our sin should remind us to not judge our neighbor.

The solution is Christ.  When we see someone suffering in sin, love them...accept them...eat with them...tell them about Gods love for them and how he loves them as they are.  When a person truly accepts that, they enter the Kingdom of God through the gate of faith.  And in that beautiful moment they begin a journey of transformation. 

[shawn]

Jabcat, we are not saved because another person loves us.  We are saved because God loves us.  Nothing more...nothing less.  How do we lead people to that other than loving them?  Telling them they are an abomination? No, we tell them God loves them, show them we love them, and share with them about our faith when the door opens.  Let the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit does.

[shawn]

It takes either a highly trained reconstructive surgeon to fix a necrotic foot or a garden variety surgeon to lop it off.

Either way, you have to deal with it or it will kill the body.

I agree.

What happens when you cut it off?  Another toe gets infected, or you go blind, or your kidneys stop working.  Why?  Because you never dealt with the root cause.  Sin is a symptom.

[shawn]

What were the first words out of the mouths of both John the baptist and Jesus when he began his ministry?

Repent...

And what is repentence?  It starts with an acknowledgement of the Cross, grace, Gods agape love for man.  It's a response to that...not some sort of white knuckle response from us.  Repentence is a change of heart.  A change of action follows the change of heart, not the other way around.

Yes, yes, yes! Has everyone watched the video?? Because the Lord focused NOTHING on the mans sin. He focused NOTHING on it. Rather He focused His love upon him and changed him and healed him from the inside out.

Amen!  Change in behavior follows a change in the heart.  A change in the heart comes when we accept Gods love for us through faith.  Why do we continually make this about us?

[shawn]

Spirit so that He can truly use us to change the world!!

lomarah, how is he going to use us to change the world if we can't say anything as to how it needs to be changed? We'll be too busy sticking our heads in the sand.

CHB

If by loving our neighbor and allowing the Holy Spirit to do what the Holy Spirit does...is sticking my head in the sand...then please get out the shovel.

[shawn]

And James, I too appreciate your heartfelt post.  I do realize many of  my brothers and sisters in Christ see this issue very differently then myself.  We each have our own journey and understanding.  I could go through my Bible and put together verses, passages etc together to support what I see.  You, Molly, CHB can do the same.  We see verses through our own relationship and understanding hoping the Holy Spirit is guiding that understanding.  I hope my words have help sharpen, as many of your points have help sharpen me.