Love/Hate

[jabcat]

I believe ,what we understand in our minds is being transferred to our hearts.We changed from a Jewish religious system when Jesus showed up.Noone understood him and they wanted the revelation but it wasn't given to all( only those in their time)
I believe we are asking the same questions now and we will have the revelation given to us as we enter this new age
New wine skins ....and we are slowly getting glimpses
So let's continue to encourage each other
Blessings

Great post Fred.   :thumbsup:

[sheila]

wellJab,Christendom/babylon has been saying that for millinea...kill the heretics..etc.they are witches infidels

   nothing new under the sun

[CHB]

I wonder if Jesus didn't use the fact that he ate with sinners to teach them things? I also wonder just what kind of sinners he ate with? We are all considered sinners, these may have been just the everyday joe of that time.

I do see that the world which includes Christian leaders and Churches have become more and more accepting of things that the Bible condems. Everyone is looking the other way, we can't say much against anything, if we do we are considered a meddler, raciest, bigot, showing any love, or being disrespectful. 

I wonder how many of the things that get pushed under the rug now will be destroyed by fire? If it is something that has to be destroyed by fire, doesn't that mean that it is wrong? What is so bad about saying something is wrong?

Just my thoughts.

CHB

[jabcat]

wellJab,Christendom/babylon has been saying that for millinea...kill the heretics..etc.they are witches infidels

   nothing new under the sun

I think I can gather that you don't think that makes it right.  (Play along.  :laughing7:)   My enlightenment is new, because I have a new understanding of the scriptures - in fact, they don't really matter.  It's a "new thing" and I'm speaking that word.  (for anyone just passing through, I'm playing the "adversary's advocate" for discussion purposes.  Don't quote me.   :laugh:)

Excellent, C.

[VineBranch]

Here's a simple question that cuts to the heart of the issue (for me).

Let's say I started a thread on here that said "I've had an enlightened understanding.  God is OK if we murder other people.  So everyone go right ahead, it's all taken care of.  If somebody's been bothering you lately, kill 'em".

I know that lends itself to a lot of jokes :).  But seriously, how would you react?

Just today I went and talked to a family member about something that they were having difficulty with. I saw it as a kind of rescue. My perspective is, if you see someone drowning, do everything you can to throw them a life line. If that means trying to point them in the right direction that will help them then to me that is showing/giving that person love. If I just stood by and watched that person drown without lifting a finger I wouldn't be able to live with myself and no one else would either. In what way would I be showing the most love, saving someone from drowning, harm, physically or spiritually or just stand by and wave or do nothing as they sank lower and lower?

I think the love of many has waxed cold.

CHB

The difficulty I have with these examples is that they are something which I think sets one up if one answers them.  I don't think the examples are fair.  If I don't help someone who is drowning, I am a looser, and probably culpable in some areas.  If I condone murder, then I have a credibility issue looming.  In my experience those are not the realities of most people.  IMO although they make for dramatic examples, they are just that ... drama.

I have found that most of the time, we are making decisions about the things which matter to people on a daily basis.  My brother tells me he's gay, and has been dating my friend from high school for a year:  what is my reaction?  My mother tells me she stole all my savings in my room and spent it on gaming tickets at the VFW hall, and the four thousand dollars is gone:  what is my reaction.  I just watched someone slap a child multiple times at the mall:  what is my reaction?  A drunk man sits down at my table in the food court and wants the rest of your lunch:  what is my reaction? Ten minutes after giving a panhandler a 10 dollar bill, I see him emerging from a store with two bottles of cheap wine:  what is my reaction?

In my world, these are the examples we face on a daily basis.  I respectfully submit, they may be the issues addressed.

[jabcat]

Nope, not just drama.  The way the question is asked, I believe, is actually pertinent.  I can change the sin if you want - OK, change it to adultery, and say I started a thread saying it's OK, I'm enlightened on it, go for it.

[lomarah]

Yep put the soapbox away and get in the closet jab.  :LH:
I hope nobody takes anything I'm saying personally because I mean it for all of us as a whole body, myself included.

In regards to your question jab, I take no advice or "new enlightenment" from any man (EXCEPT for those the Lord has set over me, as ordained by HIM and even then I go to Him for verification). I presume your answer is, I go to the scriptures and see what they say. Well here is the problem. The scriptures say:

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
    You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
    1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness.  (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
    2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense.  (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
    If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
    A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord."  When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.  (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
    But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house.  Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.  (Deuteronomy  22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
    1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
    One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men.  During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name.  So the man was brought to Moses for judgment.  His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan.  They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear.  Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head.  Then let the entire community stone him to death.  Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished.  Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel.  Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die.  (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
    1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles,  and the predicted signs or miracles take place.  If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them.  The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul.  Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone.  Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him.  The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt.  Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you.  (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

    2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.'  You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?'  If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message.  That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared.  (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
    So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.  As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies.  Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies.  So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever.  Amen.  That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires.  Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.  And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other.  Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.  When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.  Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.  They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful.  They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents.  They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving.  They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway.  And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.  (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
    For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites.  You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment.  They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it.  Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again.  Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.'  (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
    The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever.  It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.  Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy.  Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.  Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest.  I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'  (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

David speaks of bashing infants heads against rocks. Elisha made bears eat a bunch of youths. Etc, etc. The Bible is FULL of killing. Here is what I am saying... unless we know the Lord, unless we have communion with Him in the Spirit we will never understand what the scriptures are testifying to (Jesus and the Kingdom!!). We will misunderstand and misrepresent the very things we claim to understand and represent: our loving Father.  :2c:

[lomarah]

 :sigh: I wrote that before I saw you changed it to adultery... you people are too fast for me lol.

My answer is the same though. I take no new enlightenment from anyone. I seek the Lord in all things. He makes clear the truth.  :HeartThrob:

[reFORMer]

Men are not content to abandon God's law.  They set themselves up as the standard and the law giver.  In the history of humankind there has not been gay marriage, even among those Israel drove out before them as they possessed the land, for whom funeral and fertility ritual was combined, the whole family, with the corpse and animals too...but, no homosexual marriage.  3 of the 4 world empires depicted by the statue with the head of Gold in Daniel were run by eunuchs, but they didn't marry each other.  Roman nobility often castrated their sons to assure them better positions in the bureaucracy of the world into which Messiah was born...but no homosexual marriage.  The Roman husband, head of his family may have boy friends and prefer his eunuch to his wife...but there was no homosexual marriage.  We don't have to be very enlightened to see who has the problem here.  Yet Christians are supposed to be the bigoted hate mongers?

[CHB]

Here's a simple question that cuts to the heart of the issue (for me).

Let's say I started a thread on here that said "I've had an enlightened understanding.  God is OK if we murder other people.  So everyone go right ahead, it's all taken care of.  If somebody's been bothering you lately, kill 'em".

I know that lends itself to a lot of jokes :).  But seriously, how would you react?

Just today I went and talked to a family member about something that they were having difficulty with. I saw it as a kind of rescue. My perspective is, if you see someone drowning, do everything you can to throw them a life line. If that means trying to point them in the right direction that will help them then to me that is showing/giving that person love. If I just stood by and watched that person drown without lifting a finger I wouldn't be able to live with myself and no one else would either. In what way would I be showing the most love, saving someone from drowning, harm, physically or spiritually or just stand by and wave or do nothing as they sank lower and lower?

I think the love of many has waxed cold.

CHB

The difficulty I have with these examples is that they are something which I think sets one up if one answers them.  I don't think the examples are fair.  If I don't help someone who is drowning, I am a looser, and probably culpable in some areas.  If I condone murder, then I have a credibility issue looming.  In my experience those are not the realities of most people.  IMO although they make for dramatic examples, they are just that ... drama.

I have found that most of the time, we are making decisions about the things which matter to people on a daily basis.  My brother tells me he's gay, and has been dating my friend from high school for a year:  what is my reaction?  My mother tells me she stole all my savings in my room and spent it on gaming tickets at the VFW hall, and the four thousand dollars is gone:  what is my reaction.  I just watched someone slap a child multiple times at the mall:  what is my reaction?  A drunk man sits down at my table in the food court and wants the rest of your lunch:  what is my reaction? Ten minutes after giving a panhandler a 10 dollar bill, I see him emerging from a store with two bottles of cheap wine:  what is my reaction?

In my world, these are the examples we face on a daily basis.  I respectfully submit, they may be the issues addressed.

I am curious, what would your reaction be? Yep, the whole world is a stage and we all have a part to play.

CHB

[jabcat]

Lo, I only changed it, because IMO, it represents ANY sin.  The particular sin is not the issue.  It's whether we just "love 'em", or do we as believers ever have anything to say - in love.  Or, is that just hate, actually believing what the scriptures say and sharing it - WHEN LED and in the right spirit and attitude?  That's what the world is saying, trying to disarm and neuter us.  Is it working?  Are we believing the lie that I Cor. 6 and Romans 1 and many other verses are hate speech?

Really funny first couple of lines.     :spank:    :laugh:

Alright, let's dig.  You said;  "unless we have communion with Him in the Spirit we will never understand what the scriptures are testifying to (Jesus and the Kingdom!!). We will misunderstand and misrepresent the very things we claim to understand and represent: our loving Father."   Yes, absolutely. 

Then what about the kingdom?  Paul said if we do such things as he mentioned in detail, we won't inherit it.

Also, all those scrips you use?  I'm sure those have been used through the ages to persecute people.  But you don't really think that's what at issue in these discussions - really, do you?  Nah.  Here's what I see out on the blogs and the general public's comments - often against Christians, and people who present scriptural views on a topic, even when done in the greatest gentleness and love.  They bring up those very same type of scriptures - out of context of the whole of the scriptures, not rightly dividing them, not having the Spirit to interpret them for them - and they slam, bash, accuse, and attempt to disable Christians and sound scriptural beliefs, with those out of context, misunderstood scriptures.  The big one I see is "you don't follow Leviticus.  What about shellfish"?   :doh:          So my issue is, I'm not talking about the world who can't grasp the things of God (the natural man can't).   Do we, as believers, the salt and light - stand by and not say a word, and just pray and "love"?  Ignore the issues altogether? (there've been times I willfully do, just tuning it out, and I said earlier, maybe I should more so).   Or, if the Spirit prompts us, given that we firstly know what the scriptures say and believe and respect them, add something to the conversation from that perspective?

The question has many possible answers.  It's to get us to think.  I'm thinking too, I really am.  Maybe I should become a hermit, a married monk-like fellow.  I can play guitar.  I like natural living.    :laughing7:    You answered how you'd know if I was telling the truth..you'd take it to the Lord.  Awesome.  Would you also consider what the scriptures specifically say about murder, adultery, etc.?  Further, what about the part of my telling others it was OK, teaching them and encouraging them to do it?  That's really the main part of the question, as it ties into this thread. 

:handshake:

(of course, there's no course requirement for anyone to participate here.  *I go through periods of time where I deliberately refrain from posting, but with this thread, I'm asking questions and exploring things that interest me.  thanks and blessings all).

[lomarah]

Yeah that's what I mean jab when I say we need to be led by the Spirit. If the Spirit leads, do whatever He's telling you to!! If He is NOT leading, do nothing! If you are unsure, run to a closet (LOL  :banana: ) and pray til you ARE sure!

It is not the fact of a sin being a sin that is not okay in my eyes. It is when the pot is calling the kettle black, with no love for the kettle whatsoever. It is the "YOU ARE WRONG, HOMOSEXUALS! HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN!" attitude, the calling something wrong "because the Bible says so" attitude. If there's no love there, if there is no leading by the Spirit of LOVE then we are not just sounding like a clanging gong and cymbal, we are also turning them away from even wanting anything to do with God or the Bible. (See the video.)

And actually, going back to the video, why don't we take an example from God Himself who did not go around preaching to Willie, but who assured him of His love time and time again until he was so sure of it and filled with it that he was changed from the inside out.

I feel like we've all beaten this horse to death over and over and over again. My two cents: seek the Lord on it and in all things. Every situation and circumstance and person are different and only He will know what to do with it. And above all else, love.

Goodnight.  :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

It is the "YOU ARE WRONG, HOMOSEXUALS! HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN!" attitude, the calling something wrong "because the Bible says so" attitude.

Are you saying homosexuality is ok and not a sin? Also, why not call something wrong because the Bible says so? The Bible is the one thing we have to go by to prove what is wrong and right.

CHB

[Molly]

In the history of humankind there has not been...

That alone should tell us the times we are in--there is something new under the sun.   I think it's more about boundaries being pushed and if no one pushes back, they just go farther and farther until they are stopped by God.

It says in the end times, the man of perdition will wear out the saints of the most high.  To me, that means, exhaust them emotionally, probably by crossing every boundary God says not to cross.  It's not like God just makes up random laws to amuse himself, as some like to imply, --he is giving us rules to live by that will save our lives and give us peace, happiness, and salvation.

But, now, at the end of the age, I believe we are to just call to those last ones who belong in the ark, to enter it.  And, to give a witness to a world that will not listen this time around.




Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

[shawn]

I think much of the antimosity that we feel as believers is old baggage.  When Christians have pointed at the world, declaring from the roof tops about the evil of their neighbor, all while harboring their own sin...and preaching hell...then I can understand why Christians get the stink eye from non believers.

Why are we accused of hating?  Because we have hated.
Why are we accused of being hypocrites?  Because we have been hypocritical.

Today, I do preach and speak about what is evil, but I choose to point the finger at me.  If I declare anything from the rooftops it's my weakness, my sin, and my failings.  In that I also acknowledge the only solution which is Christ.

[shawn]

In the history of humankind there has not been...

That alone should tell us the times we are in--there is something new under the sun.   I think it's more about boundaries being pushed and if no one pushes back, they just go farther and farther until they are stopped by God.

It says in the end times, the man of perdition will wear out the saints of the most high.  To me, that means, exhaust them emotionally, probably by crossing every boundary God says not to cross.  It's not like God just makes up random laws to amuse himself, as some like to imply, --he is giving us rules to live by that will save our lives and give us peace, happiness, and salvation.

But, now, at the end of the age, I believe we are to just call to those last ones who belong in the ark, to enter it.  And, to give a witness to a world that will not listen this time around.




Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Is man inventing new sins?  Everything we see now, hasn't that followed man for generations?

[shawn]

I wonder if Jesus didn't use the fact that he ate with sinners to teach them things? I also wonder just what kind of sinners he ate with? We are all considered sinners, these may have been just the everyday joe of that time.

I do see that the world which includes Christian leaders and Churches have become more and more accepting of things that the Bible condems. Everyone is looking the other way, we can't say much against anything, if we do we are considered a meddler, raciest, bigot, showing any love, or being disrespectful. 

I wonder how many of the things that get pushed under the rug now will be destroyed by fire? If it is something that has to be destroyed by fire, doesn't that mean that it is wrong? What is so bad about saying something is wrong?

Just my thoughts.

CHB

Again why do we feel the need?  The only "disputable" sin in just about everyone's eyes is homosexuality.  Who doesn't know it's wrong to cheat, lie, steal, kill?  We just sound like broken records.

I propose this...the church SHOULD stand up for what is right, and they start with themselves.  If we first look at ourselves, striving for holiness as an extension of relationship, willing to admit to one another our weaknesses, maybe just maybe some of the world will follow our example of self examination.

[Molly]

So, I googled Sodom and Gomorrah and I found these articles in newpapers by various religious notables [eg. an Episcopal bishop] which say the cities were destroyed, not for homosexuality, but for inhospitality.   Clearly there's been a bit of propaganda wars going on even involving the church that I was not aware of, and biblical history is being rewritten in preparation for major societal changes ahead.  It never occurred to me that being inhospitable to strangers might be worse than gang rape of men on men.  If only the rapists had offered the angels tea and crumpets first, those two cities might still be with us instead of a barren wilderness never rebuilt.

Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." [Mat 15:14]

I am more convinced than ever that the end time church and the word of God will be the two witnesses who stand before the God of all the earth and give a final witness to a world gone wrong.

Jesus said,  "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. [Mat 15:13]

[Lazarus Short]

So, I googled Sodom and Gomorrah and I found all these articles in newpapers by various religious notables [eg. an Episcopal bishop] which say the cities were destroyed, not for homosexuality, but for inhospitality.   Clearly there's been a bit of propaganda wars going on even involving the church that I was not aware of, and biblical history is being rewritten in preparation for major societal changes ahead.  It never occurred to me that being inhospitable to strangers might be worse than gang rape of men on men.  If only the rapists had offered the angels tea and crumpets first, those two cities might still be with us instead of a barren wilderness never rebuilt.

It would seem that I am not the only one reading the book of Jasher, for it mentions people staying in Sodom overnight, being denied exit, food, or water.  When they expired, the locals would take their stuff.  One young woman who helped such a visitor was put to death.  So that's the background of their excuses, and the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were many and extreme, but none of them should be brought up to excuse the homosexual issue.  It is more clear all the time that the churches have been taken over by an enemy who keeps up appearances as far as possible.  The elect are not deceived.

[Watch/Pray]

So, I googled Sodom and Gomorrah and I found these articles in newpapers by various religious notables [eg. an Episcopal bishop] which say the cities were destroyed, not for homosexuality, but for inhospitality.   Clearly there's been a bit of propaganda wars going on even involving the church that I was not aware of, and biblical history is being rewritten in preparation for major societal changes ahead.  It never occurred to me that being inhospitable to strangers might be worse than gang rape of men on men.  If only the rapists had offered the angels tea and crumpets first, those two cities might still be with us instead of a barren wilderness never rebuilt.

Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." [Mat 15:14]

I am more convinced than ever that the end time church and the word of God will be the two witnesses who stand before the God of all the earth and give a final witness to a world gone wrong.

Jesus said,  "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. [Mat 15:13]

re: two witnesses ...church of God and the word of God

I agree, but state  with different words, meaning the same --the two witnesses, imo, grace and truth

John 1:14-17

v 14 ...Word made flesh...full of grace and truth
v 16 And of his fulness have all we received, grace for grace
v 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ


Col 1:5 ... hope laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of truth, the gospel
v 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in ALL the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth.

[micah7:9]

The thing which usually stikes me when we talk about perceptions is that we really don't know.  Quite a few years ago now, I was walking back to my car from a restaurant, when I was approaced by a man.  He said he noticed that I was carrying a Bible (I was reading it during dinner).  He asked if I was a Christian.  I said I was.  He asked me ... 'could you pray for me'.  I stood next to him and he bowed his head, and I prayed what I was lead to say.  When it was over he said amen, smiled, and thanked me.  I never saw him again.  I've had people come up to me in restaurants, coffee shops, bus stops, at work etc.  They usually ask something about the Bible I'm carrying, or they overheard me say something to someone else, and then they move on.  I ask God to take care of them, and then I move on.  Sometimes God will put them on my heart, and ask me to pray for them.  Sometimes this happens at the weirdest times.  But I think part of that is God telling me He is still looking after them.  I was with them for five minutes, He is with them always.  I can't honestly say I care who thinks I'm what ... God thinks I'm fine, and sometimes asks me to spend some time with someone.

I also find it interesting the Paul wrote his letters to churches, not governments, not the committee to do this and that, or to any city council.  I think he got that when the church is okay, people come to it, because they see it has something they need.  I think once we stop acting like the world, the world sees the difference.  Some of them will want to get rid of us.  That's okay.  Some of them will want to destroy us.  That's okay.  As long as we don't return in kind.  Some of  them hate us.  That's okay as long as we don't hate them.  I think it's okay to let them destroy, as long as we don't destroy.  Let them be violent to us, as long as we don't return the violence.

IMO it might be best for us to reflect God, and it matters not who hates us, or calls us names, or destroys what we do.  It doesn't matter what they think or do.

Vine's  :2c:

:dsunny:

[redhotmagma]

Eze 16:49 "Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy."

As far as I know this is the only specific judgement against sodom.  Otherwise it says they were greatly wicked.

[CHB]

I wonder if Jesus didn't use the fact that he ate with sinners to teach them things? I also wonder just what kind of sinners he ate with? We are all considered sinners, these may have been just the everyday joe of that time.

I do see that the world which includes Christian leaders and Churches have become more and more accepting of things that the Bible condems. Everyone is looking the other way, we can't say much against anything, if we do we are considered a meddler, raciest, bigot, showing any love, or being disrespectful. 

I wonder how many of the things that get pushed under the rug now will be destroyed by fire? If it is something that has to be destroyed by fire, doesn't that mean that it is wrong? What is so bad about saying something is wrong?

Just my thoughts.

CHB

Again why do we feel the need?  The only "disputable" sin in just about everyone's eyes is homosexuality.  Who doesn't know it's wrong to cheat, lie, steal, kill?  We just sound like broken records.

I propose this...the church SHOULD stand up for what is right, and they start with themselves.  If we first look at ourselves, striving for holiness as an extension of relationship, willing to admit to one another our weaknesses, maybe just maybe some of the world will follow our example of self examination.

Why do we feel the need? The same reason I feel the need to get the word out that the whole world will be saved and because I love everybody. Are we not suppose to say anything about anything? If you saw someone going down the road driving erratically what would you do, say, "well, I will turn around and go in a different direction", not doing anything to find out why or try to stop them before they killed somebody? "I will just let them see how well I am driving" Is that love?

If you were walking down the street and two men were raping a woman, would you say "well, I will just look the other way, I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love?

Do you not teach your kids...if you have any...against the dangers of the world? Or, do you just let them do whatever they want without any teaching and hope they will learn from your actions. Is that love?

Would you try to stop an alcoholic from drinking a pint of liquor, a drug addict from sniffing...or whatever they do with it...crack cocaine? Or, say "oh well, why worry about them I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love, or just plain selfishness?

I say "no that is not love, it is just the opposite, it is also selfish thinking", to all of these things. Maybe we have a different perspective on what love is?

CHB

[shawn]

So, I googled Sodom and Gomorrah and I found these articles in newpapers by various religious notables [eg. an Episcopal bishop] which say the cities were destroyed, not for homosexuality, but for inhospitality.   Clearly there's been a bit of propaganda wars going on even involving the church that I was not aware of, and biblical history is being rewritten in preparation for major societal changes ahead.  It never occurred to me that being inhospitable to strangers might be worse than gang rape of men on men.  If only the rapists had offered the angels tea and crumpets first, those two cities might still be with us instead of a barren wilderness never rebuilt.

Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." [Mat 15:14]

I am more convinced than ever that the end time church and the word of God will be the two witnesses who stand before the God of all the earth and give a final witness to a world gone wrong.

Jesus said,  "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. [Mat 15:13]

You might not think hospitality is important but Jesus seems to thnk otherwise.

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

Isn't that hospitality?  Is not hospitality an extension of our love for man?

Also, is man on man rape, worse than man on woman rape?  Rape is rape.  Sex outside of marriage is sex outside of marriage.  Somehow we believe divorce and premarital sex are lesser sins than homosexuality.  We can politicize and segregate sin all we wish.  If that serves the church in a way that grows us upon love, then I guess I just don't see it.

[shawn]

I wonder if Jesus didn't use the fact that he ate with sinners to teach them things? I also wonder just what kind of sinners he ate with? We are all considered sinners, these may have been just the everyday joe of that time.

I do see that the world which includes Christian leaders and Churches have become more and more accepting of things that the Bible condems. Everyone is looking the other way, we can't say much against anything, if we do we are considered a meddler, raciest, bigot, showing any love, or being disrespectful. 

I wonder how many of the things that get pushed under the rug now will be destroyed by fire? If it is something that has to be destroyed by fire, doesn't that mean that it is wrong? What is so bad about saying something is wrong?

Just my thoughts.

CHB

Again why do we feel the need?  The only "disputable" sin in just about everyone's eyes is homosexuality.  Who doesn't know it's wrong to cheat, lie, steal, kill?  We just sound like broken records.

I propose this...the church SHOULD stand up for what is right, and they start with themselves.  If we first look at ourselves, striving for holiness as an extension of relationship, willing to admit to one another our weaknesses, maybe just maybe some of the world will follow our example of self examination.

Why do we feel the need? The same reason I feel the need to get the word out that the whole world will be saved and because I love everybody. Are we not suppose to say anything about anything? If you saw someone going down the road driving erratically what would you do, say, "well, I will turn around and go in a different direction", not doing anything to find out why or try to stop them before they killed somebody? "I will just let them see how well I am driving" Is that love?

If you were walking down the street and two men were raping a woman, would you say "well, I will just look the other way, I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love?

Do you not teach your kids...if you have any...against the dangers of the world? Or, do you just let them do whatever they want without any teaching and hope they will learn from your actions. Is that love?

Would you try to stop an alcoholic from drinking a pint of liquor, a drug addict from sniffing...or whatever they do with it...crack cocaine? Or, say "oh well, why worry about them I just need to keep myself clean". Is that love, or just plain selfishness?

I say "no that is not love, it is just the opposite, it is also selfish thinking", to all of these things. Maybe we have a different perspective on what love is?

CHB

The church says don't do, yet they do.  They say homosexuality is  the worst of all sins, while turning a blind eye to the divorce, premarital sex and pornographic/chemical addictions within their own ranks.

It's not that I don't believe sin ever needs to be preached, but I think it's kind of like a diabetic focusing on their infected necrotic toe.  The toe is merely a symptom of the root disease.  The diabetic can focus all they want on that toe, maybe even getting it better for a season, but it will return or the root disease will manifest in a new way and eventually causes death.  The physical is a shadow of the spiritual.

Instead, we should be focusing on the root disease, and that disease is a separation in our minds from the love of God.  We hide in the garden, covering our nakedness.  We believe we are too sinful to come out from behind the bushes.  But, God calls us by name, wanting his children to come out...to love us, brush us off, love us how we are...then change us into his likeness.  The disease is self centered guilt and shame that keeps us from seeking the face of God. 

The exposing of sin, only makes sin more sinful.  Instead today, I seek the face of God knowing he loves me and every human on this planet.  And THAT is what I tell people.  Relationship heals, and changes.  It focuses on the solution to the root disease.  If the church wishes to look at the infected toe so be it.