The Bible, an excuse for Gay Prejudice?

[marie glen]

    do we all not bear a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction? is He not able to of the same lump make

  one for a dishonourable purpose...and another for honorable purpose.?

 

I think I see the light here - each of us is a lump, from which God first makes a vessel (us) for a dishonorable purpose, that is to say, being a sinner in the here-and-now.  This vessel is made to destroy, fitted for destruction, and so, we die.  Later, He makes from the same lump, a vessel (again, us) for an honorable purpose, that is to say, being a glorified saint in the Kingdom.

This may go un-noticed being sort of in the middle.. while reading "12 more posts have been added" rofl.. yes, I'm a little slow.. watching 2 preschoolers..

I think the above quote is good and ok as long as we don't strip the Word of it's literal meaning.. that some vessels are for honorable use (know their salvation before their death/i.e. during this lifetime/age).. and some vessels dishonorable, who "die in their sins" and those goats at Armageddon [making, imo, a well rounded story and truth drama, the purpose of which is to write God's law (deeply) upon every heart, mind and psyche / part of the metaphor and allegory application, but also quite literal]    :hithere: :smile:

[marie glen]

something I'm wondering.. about homosexuality.. I know in the OT God said to stone the witch, the murderer (if not by accident), the adulterer.. etc.. I know that's the Old Covenant and that's what this response is about.. In Leviticus 18, where it says Homosexuality is an abomination (detestable) and lying with an animal (bestiality it's called) is perversion (confusion) but a few verses down it says "don't do any of these abominations". The chapter is a description of what "the nations" in the land were doing and why God abhorred them..

The law though still God's law, was in the OT for Israel so there would be a place somewhat prepared for the coming of Jesus (the 1st time) as opposed to coming in the midst of tree worshipers or something. [Besides the way those other nations were going, things would have fast progressed into all the world, back to the stage of "every thought of every person was constantly evil".]

None of these things of course, will be in the kIngdom! For which I'm sure is reason to be very joyful and thankful!

The thing I'm wondering is, since this is a different age.. where Christianity pushed much of this aside for a season/age.. And this is what some call a different 'dispensation'.. where the blood of Christ covers the sin of believers, a much better covering than those of the OT.

What I'm trying to say, and aren't doing very well, is God was extra strict with Israel and the nations (which sacrificed live babies to baal and molech, which was the last straw with God, psalm6?106? - and may be what was also practiced in Sodom and Gomorrah, even though men named the town Sodom) - Stricter with Israel because the tiny sliver of Israel was to be, so to speak, swaddling cloths for the Savior of the world.

I'm not saying all the things of lev 18 are not all still very detestable, including today..

And the church definitely should not be teaching that any of these are ok, nor stealing and fraud, adultery, murder, etc. I sure hope the churches do not fill up with the likes of all that!! Some of the church, yes has fallen away.. We can thank the teaching and philosophy (prophet) of 'evolution' as to origins for that. Many churches and christian schools have compromised with the world on that, even though True science does not support it.. Compromised in the name of peace, but doing so has made God out to be a liar. Genesis is no longer believed - that sin brought death - not millions of years of death before man and woman even lived!

And therefor if you let go chunks of God's Word, why should the next and upcoming generation not drop other chunks? And thus generation to generation, what was once called Christendom or a Christian world (western civilization) has steadily eroded. And actually, most people don't know any better (for the most part)..

Anyway, I think Jabcat hit the nail on the head with his posts!! A very good balance.. Yet also, some are repulsed by homosexuality.. Folks like to say homosexuality is 'natural', which of course we disagree with, but if they can say that, why isn't it true that heterosexuals are naturally repulsed by it? Jes sayin'..

Also, I'm not so sure as many christians or church goers are 'against' homosexual folks as an opposing political party lets on!! I think far more embrace what JABCAT (and others) have described, which is not approving, but being friendly, tho not encouraging of the lifestyle.

Perhaps, feeling that Jesus' Kingdom "is not of this world" - I for one, am not all hep with trying to legislate pro or con on some of these issues. [To me small government, legislature, is better government, less chance of tyranny, thus delaying the day..]

sorry to be so long winded couldn't spit it out as the saying goes.. :icon_jokercolor:

[sheila]

we all have our own little goat and Lamb..in the same vessel....He will seperate the people one from another

   'like" a shepherd seperates the goats from the Lambs[since we are all good/evil mix]thus the

  unlawful mixing of the tokogae.

.......without spot or blemish[see Jude]  He give His life that He may present man to Himself without spot or

blemish, and He will.......remove all sin.   you will pass under the rod..and I will bring you into the covenant

  and I will purge you.

  we all await the redemption of our body..or deliverance from this body undergoing this death[restoration]

    ..now...the pot may call the kettle black..but they both need a good scouring by the hand of the Lord.


     

   

[marie glen]

    ..now...the pot may call the kettle black..but they both need a good scouring by the hand of the Lord.

:ghaha: Absolutely!!! :smile:

[misszoolander]

I have been blessed in life by having a lot of homosexual friends.

There I go.. I said it..blessed. How on earth is this a blessing? The Lord has used these people to humble myself, and to show me that his love extends out to even the most "repulsive", to the most "undeserving" to the people that stay in their sin.

I have witnessed my gay friend breaking down on my living room floor, screaming out "GOD WHY ME!?!WHY AM I GAY!!", I have witnessed the hurt and agony the gay community feel in regards to the church, I have had gay friends confess to me that they believe in God, but they don't know how to move forwards, when they feel stuck, when they feel like they are are a disgusting, filthy... when they feel unacceptable. 

Gay people will be gay, that is reality. Our hating of their sin and won't change anything (because sub consciously not matter how much we profess we love them, we always think you are what you do), our love for them as people with God's help will.

Two days ago God opened my mind to something I have not thought of before.

Love is a doing thing. It is a feeling that manifests itself in actions.
I myself am guilty of sitting there and proclaiming love for pedophiles, terrorists and all sorts. Do I love them? Really truly love these enemies of mine? I think of my high school bully, if I saw she needed help with something, would I be the first to reach out a helping hand? Love is not ignoring someone, and love is not just simply managing not to hate someone. Love is caring about someone, love is...

patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.


I remember awhile ago I came across a pedophile online on a website he created for pedophiles to gather and chat about abandoning pedophilia, he was not practicing his "mental illness" (That's how he put it) instead he is focusing on God. I was accepting of this UNTIL he mentioned that he occasionally still struggles with his sin mentally, that is when I went off my rocket and washed my hands clean of him, thinking to myself no man that has a relationship with God surly can have such thoughts. My love failed. Shame on me!

Friends, I know I'm blessed to have these people in my life, they open up to me because they know I love them, and that is the opportunity to talk about Jesus, the light that shines on all darkness, this is my opportunity to be with the brokenhearted, and to let God use me so these people no longer feel like a lost cause. We are called to witness Christ and the love he bears for us all. No one is a lost cause to our Heavenly Father.  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Thanks for the good input guys.  It seems we're mostly pretty close to the idea of, "don't accept or reinforce the sin [any of our sins], but love the person and hope to win them".  I agree with Molly regarding the point we've reached.  I also don't think there's any going back, and things won't be fixed until God is all in all;  when all sin has been dealt with, the kingdoms of the earth and in our flesh torn down, and the reconciliation occurs.  In the meantime, there's a process that we'll all experience - and I don't think it's generally going to be fun.   :2c:  Labor pains, all creation groaning.  Blessings.

[jabcat]

misszoo, it sounds like you might have some things to share on how you balance/resolve this that might be helpful.  I.e., what you've found that works for you to love the person, but not reinforce, participate in, show approval of their behavior.  My guess is, sometimes you feel like you get it right, and as you note, sometimes you feel like you fumble it - which I think is common to our experiences.

OTOH, might it help some of those you interact with - including the friend who was in such agony - to remind them that there's a big difference between having tendencies, urges, thoughts, feeling, temptations - and even sometimes slips/failures   vs.  on-going, unrepentant, rationalizing, uncaring actual practice of the behavior?  To varying degrees, I think we all are born with tendencies, weakness, etc., but we're responsible for what we do with them - i.e., uncaringly act on and attempt to justify them, or take it to the Lord in weakness for His forgiveness, help, and deliverance.   :2c:

[misszoolander]

Hey Jab,
I can't exactly remember how I began loving and having homosexuals as friends (In fact they probably make up 50% of my friends with three of my best friends being gay) .  It started when I was 14, I was drawn to gay people and they were drawn to me. Sounds strange I know, but I never saw them as anything different when I was younger, and being bullied constantly by girls I then saw gay guys as the next best thing.

They know I am a Christian, but due to our friendship, we do not disrespect each other. They understand that because of what I believe, I do not endorse gay marriage. But here is the thing, I haven't told them that, they just know, just like they haven't told me what they really think of the majority of Christians, they know I know. There is no need for discussion about who's right and wrong, just pure friendship. If they had a hard time and wanted to open up the door to God, they know they can come to me.

I am the exception to these people, I am a friend, a helper, a supporter and a good friend to chat too. I'm not just that "Christian", and they are the same to me, they are not just that "gay person".
They are Josh, Jimmy, Aaron, Onyx, Sam they all have names, feelings, strengths and weaknesses.

Some of my gay friends are super conservative, some super flamboyant..Do any of them influence me? No more than a straight woman or man! I find actually being 21, and having crazy hormones, it is more safer to spend my time with my gay male friends, then my straight male friends! if you know what I mean  :LH:

See the thing is we can tell people straight up that we don't approve of their behavior, but that is not going to change things. They already know that we don't approve! Are they going to change because I simply tell them what they are doing is wrong? No, I have more of a chance showing Christ to gays by interacting with as many gay people as possible, being there for them and offering them pure friendship rather than treating them like they are diseased.

[jabcat]

Thanks misszoo.

It sounds like you're able to interact with them (a lot?) without feeling like you're crossing any boundaries regarding seeming to support their lifestyle and choices?  It also sounds like you try to witness to them (in various ways, without "slamming" them) when you're around them. 

[misszoolander]

Gay people have choices, they have the freedom to choose what they want to do with their lives,
They just find it ALOT harder to choose the opposite sex.
Do I think gay people are born gay?.. I am not sure.
I do know that lack of a father or a male role model has a lot to do with it (gay men) I am unsure with gay women.

What boundaries would I cross if I interact with gay people a lot? Well they already know that I think it is a sin... I support the person, but at the end of the day no matter how I think otherwise they will make their own decisions. It's up to me whether I am going to be the one that is going to offer good news when times get tough.
Am I friends with alcoholics, drug abusers and fornicators? You bet ya! I see them as no different. I can have intelligent conversations with just about anyone, and if the conversation turns ugly and vulgar..easy I just change the subject :)

In my generation, with the way things are going in the world I can not afford to box myself up with just my fellow Christians, that is too safe, too secure. I feel the Lord is calling me for other things, I feel as a young person there a many paths that are before me, but mainly.. the easy path, and the hard path. :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

What boundaries would I cross if I interact with gay people a lot?

Was this sort of a rhetorical question to transition into your next few lines, or was it a question for me to attempt to answer?  Thanks.

[misszoolander]

Just a rhetorical question..  :Peace2: Sorry for any confusion.

I must say all though this is the way I feel about things, it might not suit everyone.  :2c:

[jabcat]

:)

[shawn]

I have been blessed in life by having a lot of homosexual friends.

There I go.. I said it..blessed. How on earth is this a blessing? The Lord has used these people to humble myself, and to show me that his love extends out to even the most "repulsive", to the most "undeserving" to the people that stay in their sin.

I have witnessed my gay friend breaking down on my living room floor, screaming out "GOD WHY ME!?!WHY AM I GAY!!", I have witnessed the hurt and agony the gay community feel in regards to the church, I have had gay friends confess to me that they believe in God, but they don't know how to move forwards, when they feel stuck, when they feel like they are are a disgusting, filthy... when they feel unacceptable. 

Gay people will be gay, that is reality. Our hating of their sin and won't change anything (because sub consciously not matter how much we profess we love them, we always think you are what you do), our love for them as people with God's help will.

Two days ago God opened my mind to something I have not thought of before.

Love is a doing thing. It is a feeling that manifests itself in actions.
I myself am guilty of sitting there and proclaiming love for pedophiles, terrorists and all sorts. Do I love them? Really truly love these enemies of mine? I think of my high school bully, if I saw she needed help with something, would I be the first to reach out a helping hand? Love is not ignoring someone, and love is not just simply managing not to hate someone. Love is caring about someone, love is...

patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.


I remember awhile ago I came across a pedophile online on a website he created for pedophiles to gather and chat about abandoning pedophilia, he was not practicing his "mental illness" (That's how he put it) instead he is focusing on God. I was accepting of this UNTIL he mentioned that he occasionally still struggles with his sin mentally, that is when I went off my rocket and washed my hands clean of him, thinking to myself no man that has a relationship with God surly can have such thoughts. My love failed. Shame on me!

Friends, I know I'm blessed to have these people in my life, they open up to me because they know I love them, and that is the opportunity to talk about Jesus, the light that shines on all darkness, this is my opportunity to be with the brokenhearted, and to let God use me so these people no longer feel like a lost cause. We are called to witness Christ and the love he bears for us all. No one is a lost cause to our Heavenly Father.  :HeartThrob:

Beautiful post.  And I think if we are all honest , most if not all of us have groups of people we struggle to love.  We have all failed in this regard.

[shawn]

Zoo, you touched on something that is very important.  Your gay friends know how you feel about certain issues, yet want to be friends with you.  Why?  Likely because you live love, and that is what attracts people to others and ultimately to Christ.  You also stated, that soap boxing doesn't change behavior.  I agree.  Today, if I soap box, pounding my fist against homosexuality letting everyone know I AM CHRISTIAN and HOMOSEXUALITY is an abomination...that was for me...not for anyone else.  Why?  Because it's ineffective, and it makes me feel better about "standing strong for what I believe".  That is easy.  It's much harder to love those whos lifestyles you do not agree with.  It's much harder to fight for the rights of people who are not like you.

[micah7:9]

We all have worth.  It's about how our worth is defined.  Our worth is not defined by deeds, works, morality etc.  It's defined by the love of our God.

:dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[misszoolander]

Zoo, you touched on something that is very important.  Your gay friends know how you feel about certain issues, yet want to be friends with you.  Why?  Likely because you live love, and that is what attracts people to others and ultimately to Christ.  You also stated, that soap boxing doesn't change behavior.  I agree.  Today, if I soap box, pounding my fist against homosexuality letting everyone know I AM CHRISTIAN and HOMOSEXUALITY is an abomination...that was for me...not for anyone else.  Why?  Because it's ineffective, and it makes me feel better about "standing strong for what I believe".  That is easy.  It's much harder to love those whos lifestyles you do not agree with.  It's much harder to fight for the rights of people who are not like you.

Exactly Shawn, this is how I see things. Works do not earn us love from our Heavenly Father, so it should be with us and other people. It was the love of Jesus that transformed our hearts, and we must witness this to others, so they themselves can feel the love of God, we are all outrageously loved by him.  :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

It is important to not only TELL PEOPLE God loves them- but also to ACTUALLY LOVE THEM. Whatever the sin/issue/difference. It is also important that we are LED BY THE SPIRIT in all things.

God has not appointed us to judge anyone. We are appointed to display discernment with the salt of God's love.

Some sins are more immediately destructive than other sins. Some people love their sins and some people hate them but cannot break through them yet. Some people are seeking deliverance but have NEVER HEARD THE WORD OF DELIVERANCE- only the word of ciondemnation- WHICH IS NOT OF GOD.

As for vessels of honor and dishonor- all the vessels of honor walk in the wisdom and love of God by grace.

Many a vessel of dishonor has Jesus stickers all over it and a hard damning word for everyone who appears to be, or is, held captive by the enemy to do his will, trapped in chains of addiction, or pschological dysfunction, or spiritual confusion. But even when a person is morally depraved in a wilful way, the word of deliverance is the answer for them- not the word of condemnation. Discernment is never delivered in a spirit of condemnation, but it can still get you hated and killed :o), because....

At the same time we have to understand, God is not ashamed of righteousness- or the WOPRD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. He loves everyone, but He will shine the light on all things, until every thing that is hidden in darkness is brought up and into the cleansing, purifying light. Sometimes we are to be that light- speaking the truth in love- and we will be hated for it. This is a part of our righteousness too- and a finction of our grace, however.....

IMO, Jesus spent a lot more time rebuking religious hypocrites than "sinners".

[reFORMer]

One of the best shorter books on homosexuality -- actually the #1 preferred book by ex-gay Christians, -- is by Thomas E. Schmidt, Straight and Narrow?  Compassion and Clarity in the Homosexual Debate (Downers Grove:  InterVarsity, 1995)

Weighing in at 520 pages, ex-gay Christians as well as the academic community consider this the foremost on all the Scripture has to say on homosexuality:  Robert A. J. Gagnon, The Bible and Homosexual Practice:  Texts and Hermeneutics (Abingdon Press:  Nashville, 2001)