Tentmaker Forum

Many of us would agree that the bible is invaluable when it comes to growing and learning spiritually.
However I am beginning to realize that perhaps the peoples interpretation of the bible has become an idol?

If you take the word of God, without Gods love and influence you can come out with just about anything, so is it safe to say that prayer, Gods Holy Spirit and the word must all be equally used to interpret the scriptures?

My problem is when people use scripture to belittle others, I've noticed lately the hoard of gay prejudice since Rob Bell's nerw book came out. It pains me when people use the bible as justification to bring others down, exclude others, belittle others and pretty much tell others they are not worthy of the love of God unless they change. I remember as a young teen, a fellow church goer of mine got rejected on becoming a youth leader, because there were suspicions he was gay, after that he left the church, heartbroken. The Church's actions probably can be justified in the bible, but does that make it right?

What can we do as Christians, to bring comfort to our gay friends, and a message of hope when they are surrounded by so much prejudice? How can we do this without disrespecting Gods word?

If you read the Law of God with an eye toward it being an owner's manual or an operator's manual, we can see the Laws, Statutes, and Judgments as rules pertaining to God's design - how to use and maintain His creation properly.  Even in the present age, we know that certain things are sins, and they are sins, not because of some arbitrary ruling by God, but because He knows how to do things to obtain the best world, society, ecosystem, farm operation, civilization, etc.  In this regard, God's rules on sex and marriage are geared toward His design:  male + female producing children, who in turn, carry on the process of reproduction.  Any deviation from this formula spoils the plan and design, and displeases God.  Milder deviations get milder corrective punishments.  Greater deviations receive sterner punishments, up to and including, death.  That is exactly why homosexual relations are forbidden - they spoil the plan and design of God.  It's a sin, and I can't see it any other way.  As Christians, we must deal with it like any other sin, helping free the sinner from sin, but loving the sinner as a child of God.

  Oh Lord this is a toughy ,

  I just read Romans 8  where Jesus  came in a   flesh body to be a sacrifice for sin ,    our mortal bodies are dead because of sin already  ,   so we are to live in the Spirit of God /God is love   
we are  to be born again , our first birth   being flesh and blood is   of a sinful nature  , that includes  all sin ,  murder  , fornication , adultry  , homosexual  , theft  , liars , hatred  etc ..  its all covered   as earthly sensual and devilish in nature  , not of God at all

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 


Jam 5:20   Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. 

I have a cousin   who is homosexual , I love him , his soul and Spirit  are  beautiful  , but that is not all of who he is ,  we cannot define anyone by just  one thing  can we ? 
he does not ''put his gay lifestyle ''  in my face  and make me accept him  for being gay   
I look  at it as his cross to bear  , see the cross  is where  sins are hung on to die  , this death is the last enemy  where all our flesh is, as dead
this is why Jesus said , take up your cross and follow me , we are now spiritual creatures in Christ
  following after the Spirit in newness of life  , our focus has changed 
I believe we are  so  much more than  that  old dead man   now
  and those whom are  dying in their sins will also have   freedom when the flesh  of a mortal body  is seperated  from the  Spirit and soul   that God has  kept  them in 
God is doing a glorious thing continually , I believe that with all my heart , See my cousin  believes in God too  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 21, 2013, 06:44:11 AM
homosexual relations are forbidden..It's a sin, and I can't see it any other way.  As Christians, we must deal with it like any other sin, helping free the sinner from sin, but loving the sinner

amen...restoration..."speaking the truth in love"..God help us do so

Comfort alcoholics because they are the victims of anti-alcoholic sentiment and drunk bashers?  Offer them a message of hope when get into a car drunk, because there's so much prejudice against them?

People like to play the victim card.  Copious tears are not a sign of truth, only the emotional state of the weeper.  Many are deeply indoctrinated into approving and even applauding homosexuality.  They live surrounded with a culture that praises and glorifies their lifestyle, defending against all its detractors.  It takes the spirit of God to deal with people in their sins who have been taken captive by the devil.

We can witness to the love and grace of God.  We can speak of the new birth, which is being regenerated spiritually by the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within us; but, for many, an explanation of our love is considered hate speech.  To speak of the power of the Holy Spirit to transform us from slaves to sin (including sexual sins) and to tell of God's love for all men, even homosexuals, that it is a love that transfigures us into radiant holy beings like God, is to preach intolerance and promote homophobic lies.  It is the specific and on record agenda of certain gay organizations to remove the Church's witness from the public sphere and to prevent Christian standards from prevailing in the home, where children may be removed for anything short of full approval and promotion of gay behavior.

It was in a recent dream that God showed me the face of a gay person.  An angel tapped on the picture, pointing out to me I wasn't as loving as I could be, that I am to love such people.  ("Faith works by love.")  The word spoken to me was, "Believe that God can completely transform anybody!"

All great replies :thumbsup:

Missz said. "It pains me when people use the bible as justification to bring others down, exclude others, belittle others and pretty much tell others they are not worthy of the love of God unless they change."

IMO, even ifwe DO change, we are still not worthy of the love of God :sigh: :Chinscratch:

Quote from: ded2daworld on March 21, 2013, 02:00:32 PM
All great replies :thumbsup:

Missz said. "It pains me when people use the bible as justification to bring others down, exclude others, belittle others and pretty much tell others they are not worthy of the love of God unless they change."

IMO, even ifwe DO change, we are still not worthy of the love of God :sigh: :Chinscratch:

Really???  I don't think so.  We are worthy of the love of God.  Worth.  You have worth, I have worth, they have worth to God.  Therefore we are worthy. 

God created you, out of Himself, (sorry creation ex-nihlo doesn't hold water).  This idea that we are these driveling worms that have no worth, but thankfully the mighty god can take time out of his busy day and give us some scraps of love is repulsive to me.  He created us, He subjected us to futility all for a purpose, to recreate Himself in billions of unique beings.  Division for the sake of multiplication.

You are worthy Ded.

If, after placing his Holy spirit in me, I never strayed or doubted or even occaisonally willfully chose to sin, I would say then that maybe I
was worthy. Grace is undeserved kindness and grace and mercy is what I recieve from him.

 :banana: What great answers! I can't help but think of how political forces paint christians as haters, no matter what the issue :smile: but I don't think you can find anyone who loves all folks, gay folk included, more than a true christian.. and of course, however, any belligerent or 'big mouth' of a group is the one who gets noticed and remembered! :sigh:
But we know the real story isn't hate, just that all are sinners/imperfect.. a cloudy reflection of God's glory.. way cloudy. That's the lesson, God=100%, we w/o God=0, surely? it's just the way it is.. God loves us ALL so deeply.. even before we were saved - "while we were yet sinners.." as it says.
great answers here  :thumbsup:

Think of it this way ded: are your children unworthy of your love? Mine are more than worthy and deserving of my love!! We are worthy because we are His. If my child doubts my love it doesn't make them unworthy of it. If my child gets angry with me or sins against me somehow it still doesn't mean they are unworthy of my love. They are ALWAYS worthy of my love - they are my children!

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet,not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will

of your Father.And even the very hairs of your head are numbered,so don't be afraid...

  you are worth more than many sparrows.

   Our worth is based on God's feelings about it..not man's[life is cheap down here] 

 

My children/grandchildren are sinners just like me so that's not a good analogy.
If you all think that you deserve that Christ died for you and in your place. That's you.
I only seem worthy when I look at others, not when I look at Christ.
"What is man that thou art mindful of him."
"Dust you are, to dust you'll return"
Yes we are precious and loved by God, but since we have done absolutely nothing to warrant
or deserve this love, I can't see it.

The bible says the Lamb alone is worthy. The only worth I have is the lamb in me.

And do you think the Lord died a horrible bloody painful death for those who have no worth? Do your children have no worth to you?

We didn't subject ourselves to futility or asked to be born.  It was all Him.  We deserve His love and are worthy of it because He created us.  You are not a sinner on your own account.  God decided that was the plan, and subjected all creation to futility.  So that His mercy could be shown. 

You are worthy (maybe not to receive Praise and Honor and glory and Power, which is the rest of that script) you have worth.

I can't seperate "worthy" from "deserving".
We had no worth until Christ died for us.
Grace is undeserved kindness
It sounds like you feel we deserve kindness, or in a contradiction "deserve grace"
or "deserve undeserved kindness"
Yes we are sinners by birth, but we are also sinners by choice.
We did not choose to be born (right) neither did we choose to be born again - Jesus chose us.
How is it that we deserve the free gift of God?
Are we somehow worthy because God did for us what we could not do for ourselves.
I repeat, my only worth is Christ in me.

He is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We have always had worth. No, not because of works. Because we are His.

Just as each pot made by the potter has worth. Nothing the pot has done to deserve the worth.

Exactly!! The pot has much worth to the potter. He made it with loving care, carefully constructing it to suit His needs. Now think of how much more worth you and I have to our Father!!

Well... I know we're worth much more than a couple of sparrows... :Chinscratch:

I think it's important to keep in mind a few things.  We are ALL sinners in need of grace.  I am no better than the homosexual.  I am commanded to love, not to be someones judge.  Therefore that is what I do.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this is not a theocracy.  It's a democracy, where people should be afforded the right to choose their own path not directed by the Bible or our belief system.  It's about equal rights for all races, creeds, and lifestyles.  It is not our job to dictate legislation of morality specifically one that does not harm others.

I still think there's a big difference between having worth and being worthy :Peace2:

Worthy:

adj. wor·thi·er, wor·thi·est
1. Having worth, merit, or value; useful or valuable.
2. Honorable; admirable: a worthy fellow.
3. Having sufficient worth; deserving: worthy to be revered; worthy of acclaim.
n. pl. wor·thies
An eminent or distinguished person.

We all have worth.  It's about how our worth is defined.  Our worth is not defined by deeds, works, morality etc.  It's defined by the love of our God.

"; deserving: worthy to be revered; worthy of acclaim."

That's me OK
Bow down to me if I'm so worthy

A poor definition to use the same word in the definition as what it's defining

Worthy - duh - having worth...gimmee a break :laughing7:
I'm posting no further on the subject

Great answers folks  :thumbsup:

Tricky subject I know, but one we must not ignore. I don't know the full facts, I don't know whether people are born gay, or whether they actually choose it or whether it is a mix of both. What I do know is that their lifestyle is out of my hands, I place it into the Lords. I know in my heart that I am called to love them, nothing less then that.

I wish there was an easy way to reach out to these people, because I feel spiritually they are the least of us.
Have we ever seen a transgender, or openly gay person walk into the church gladly and boldly? I haven't, and it worries me. They have a spirit just like us, looking, wanting, searching...
Prehaps, when they are weary and they feel they need answers they go looking for them, I wish I could always be there to point in the right direction  :Peace2:

I think God put different people in certain places ...soooo we could love unconditionally.
We are not any better, why do we pick on a certain sin, how many of us cursed the guy that was too slow driving ahead of us.Total love, its something we all will do one day!
Reformer had a dream and used the term "such" people....we are all such people
blessings as we all are being renewed by his spirit :dsunny:

Quote from: onlytruth on March 22, 2013, 12:29:57 AM
I think God put different people in certain places ...soooo we could love unconditionally.
We are not any better, why do we pick on a certain sin, how many of us cursed the guy that was too slow driving ahead of us.Total love, its something we all will do one day!
Reformer had a dream and used the term "such" people....we are all such people
blessings as we all are being renewed by his spirit :dsunny:

Wonderful.    :HeartThrob:

Quote from: misszoolander on March 21, 2013, 10:33:54 PM
Great answers folks  :thumbsup:

Tricky subject I know, but one we must not ignore. I don't know the full facts, I don't know whether people are born gay, or whether they actually choose it or whether it is a mix of both. What I do know is that their lifestyle is out of my hands, I place it into the Lords. I know in my heart that I am called to love them, nothing less then that.

I wish there was an easy way to reach out to these people, because I feel spiritually they are the least of us.
Have we ever seen a transgender, or openly gay person walk into the church gladly and boldly? I haven't, and it worries me. They have a spirit just like us, looking, wanting, searching...
Prehaps, when they are weary and they feel they need answers they go looking for them, I wish I could always be there to point in the right direction  :Peace2:

Imo, A church should be seen like a hospital for the sick.  The fact that transgenders, homosexuals, adulterers/adulteresses, addicts, liars, thieves, etc and so on don't feel welcomed in church means the mark set for us as believers has been missed.

Shawn, you hit the nail on the head with that one!  :gimmefive:

IMO, there is a difference. Theives, murderers, rapists, drug dealers, etc. are not pushing others to accept their sin as "normal" and not calling it a sin at all. It (so far) is only homosexuals, fornicators, and adulterers that want to be treated as if they are not committing blatant. We can't look away and say, "it's allright, everybody just do whatever is right in your own eyes" or "God will ultimately reconcile with everyone anyway so why not just leave people alone to "do their own thing" and "have their fun"?
If we try to help a drug addict to stop or a smoker to stop or an overeater to stop or a shoplifter to stop, nobody thinks less of us because they know we are trying to help someone that has a problem.
The difference is S-E-X. OH, that's private, that's nobody's business, we aren't hurting anyone...baloney. Our society seems to think we should act as if the wrong are right, which is making us(the right) wrong. Bad is good, good is bad, it's like unto the days of Noah so we know our redemption is near. :Peace2:

The problem here Ded, is homosexuals that were not born in a religious family of course don't feel that their "love" is wrong.

Reality for us, it's wrong. Reality for them...it's not.

I agree with you, they actually do not realize they are being sinful, so how do we reach them and help them confront that their "love" is wrong? It's all well and good standing from a distance professing love for them while admitting what they are doing is wrong, but how can we help them?

The whole thing I feel is beyond me, knowing that these people feel like they have no choice...I hate it when gay people automatically think I'm judgmental and going to look down on them once I say I am Christian, how do we turn this around?

As my friend Linus said in our comic strip,"There is no problem to great that it cannot be run away from."
Many is the time I've thought, "they will know the truth and be reconciled one day. They are responsible for their lives"
It's a copout I guess but there are really bigger problems in the world than homosexual behaviour.
(I run away from those too) :sigh:

This is an EXCELLENT video. It is Steve McVey, the author of "Grace Walk", interviewing a man who was gay and his experience with the Lord. It's 40 minutes but please watch it when you have the time. It details his struggle, his giving up, and God's pulling him back in with His love.

THIS is the dragging love of Christ!!! I was in tears. Beautiful, beautiful testimony, please please watch.

:HeartThrob:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsI4hhm_J2A&feature=youtu.be

Please post the video link?  :HeartThrob: :Peace2:

Ermmmm... LOL sorryyyy!! Will go back and add it to my previous post.

Quote from: ded2daworld on March 21, 2013, 05:06:22 PM

"What is man that thou art mindful of him."
"Dust you are, to dust you'll return"
Yes we are precious and loved by God, but since we have done absolutely nothing to warrant
or deserve this love, I can't see it.

The bible says the Lamb alone is worthy. The only worth I have is the lamb in me.

:thumbsup:

Amen.

There is no good that comes from myself only  :thumbsup:

Quote from: shawn on March 21, 2013, 07:05:54 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is that this is not a theocracy.  It's a democracy, where people should be afforded the right to choose their own path not directed by the Bible or our belief system.  It's about equal rights for all races, creeds, and lifestyles.  It is not our job to dictate legislation of morality specifically one that does not harm others.

(Of course, the entire world is a theocracy, but just keep it under your hat for now.  Very few seem to want to think of it that way.)  Morality dictated by the state is unacceptable to good Americans or Christians; but, that is certainly what is happening.  To publicaly call homosexuality a sin is increasingly considered a thought crime, a crime against the state, one for which our children can be taken away from us to be raised by the state instead.  If we do not stand for Christian morality we lose ground to statism.  They are the ones changing the system.  It is exactly because homosexuality does great harm to others we must be allowed to speak in the public square.

Quote from: misszoolander on March 22, 2013, 07:44:22 AM
There is no good that comes from myself only  :thumbsup:

Amen.

Quote from: misszoolander on March 22, 2013, 04:13:51 AM
The problem here Ded, is homosexuals that were not born in a religious family of course don't feel that their "love" is wrong.

Reality for us, it's wrong. Reality for them...it's not.

I agree with you, they actually do not realize they are being sinful, so how do we reach them and help them confront that their "love" is wrong? It's all well and good standing from a distance professing love for them while admitting what they are doing is wrong, but how can we help them?

The whole thing I feel is beyond me, knowing that these people feel like they have no choice...I hate it when gay people automatically think I'm judgmental and going to look down on them once I say I am Christian, how do we turn this around?

Homosexuality is not genetic.  If it was, then when the gene was on, there it would be.  If the gene was off, it wouldn't be there.  Instead, there are many gradations between exclusive homosexual and heterosexual practice.  The reality is many degrees of people going both ways and changing from one to the other.  Impossible if it was genetic.

That we do love them and they think the opposite is true of us, goes with the question you posed, "How do we turn this around?"  I'm sure the early Christians in pagan Rome asked that with great fervor as they were regularly being thrown to the lions.  One answer is to make the king a Christian.

Our dear miss zoo asked the heartfelt question, from the heart of a servant;  "how do we turn it around?"   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: reFORMer on March 22, 2013, 07:52:05 AM

Homosexuality is not genetic. 

That we do love them and they think the opposite is true of us, goes with the question you posed, "How do we turn this around?"  I'm sure the early Christians in pagan Rome asked that with great fervor as they were regularly being thrown to the lions.  One answer is to make the king a Christian.

Amen.  I don't think we do turn it around.  The world - and parts of the church - don't believe or accept the truth, until the Holy Spirit puts it in our hearts and convicts us of it, making it real.  Until then, even though we're supposed to proclaim it as best we understand - based on Spirit-revealed scripture - I believe many will just continue to reject it.   It will be fixed when Jesus is fully crowned (acknowledged as) King.  Blessings.  Lord Jesus come quickly.

Shawn said, " It is not our job to dictate legislation of morality specifically one that does not harm others."
The problem is IMO, homosexuality is a sin, just like fornication (actually it is fornication also) :Peace2:
Since it IS sin, there is someone being harmed by it. God didn't arbitrarily label things a sin if there was no actual harm to anyone either mentally, physically, or spiritually.

Quote from: shawn on March 21, 2013, 07:05:54 PM
It is not our job to dictate legislation of morality specifically one that does not harm others.

Actually, it is.  If you are not going to legislate morality, just what ARE you going to legislate?  Every law code, even a secular one, is inescapably based on underlying ideas of proper conduct, ethics, morality.  It will either be yours or someone else's, and there is no getting around it.  The only alternative is every man doing what is right in his own eyes, that is to say, anarchy.

legislating morality doesn't work.  Who's version should we use?  some christians think its immoral to listen to rock and roll music.  should we make it illegal in our theocracy?  Should we make alcohol illegal because some christians think it is wrong to drink?  we tried that, remember what happened?  Look at the war on drugs, look how well thats worked, the war on drugs is a miserable failure.  Now transpose the "illegality" of homosexuality.  Look at the way they act out.  Kind of like the gangsters in prohibition.  Legislating morality will never change the heart.  And again who's version of morality should we use?

My problem with gay marriage is not in gays marrying.  Its in the state having anything to say in the matter in the first place.  If we had no abusive tax system, with its loopholes, ie marriage tax benefits, or insurance benefits then it would just be a matter of their personal relationship.  insurance wouldn't even exist as we know it without our abusive tax system, as it was widely implemented as a tax get around in the first place back in the 50's, its pretax money, how about just cutting taxes and ending insurance and all its regulations and beuracracy. 

This would be a non issue with less laws, not more. 

I think homosexuality is an addiction just like drugs and alcohol can become addictions. I have some fqamily members who are drug addicts and alcoholics, they know I don't approve of this but they also know I love them. Only God can change a person. I believe we should let them know these things are not good for them as well as for society but all the while let them know we love them and God loves them more. To look the other way, or go along and agree with their way of thinking is not helping anyone. Would anyone who had a child who was a drug addict not let them know the way you feel about it and try to get them help? In a loving manner of course.

CHB   

The only true freedom is when God gives it, no matter how we try to legislate it or indoctrinate it.Bottom line, we can disagree with the "sin" and yell stop ! stop! but it has to happen in the heart and God will be doing that.
blessings

Reminds me of a job offer I had that offer excellent pay. It was as a hitman. I was going to take the Job but then my wife reminded me that it was against the law to kill other people(at least, AFTER they've been born). I smacked my head, said Oh that's right, Good thing you reminded me because I almost forgot - it was wrong. :doh:

Thanks team (we are are'nt we? :gimmefive:) for the great answers.
The best we can do right now is allow The Lord to work in our lives and let his light shine
Through us to help these people, we all know homosexuality is a sin, but I feel not loving our neighbour is a greater sin, so lets spare a prayer for these people and Praise The Lord that because of Jesus, one day they will not have to bear that yoke anymore, thank you Jesus! :dsunny:

Quote from: misszoolander on March 22, 2013, 10:11:47 PM
Thanks team (we are are'nt we? :gimmefive:) for the great answers.
The best we can do right now is allow The Lord to work in our lives and let his light shine
Through us to help these people, we all know homosexuality is a sin, but I feel not loving our neighbour is a greater sin, so lets spare a prayer for these people and Praise The Lord that because of Jesus, one day they will not have to bear that yoke anymore, thank you Jesus! :dsunny:

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

Did anyone watch that video I posted last night? It's sooooooo good and completely demonstrates the love of God and how HE deals with people who have gay lifestyles.

Quote from: CHB on March 22, 2013, 04:36:57 PM
I think homosexuality is an addiction just like drugs and alcohol can become addictions. I have some fqamily members who are drug addicts and alcoholics, they know I don't approve of this but they also know I love them. Only God can change a person. I believe we should let them know these things are not good for them as well as for society but all the while let them know we love them and God loves them more. To look the other way, or go along and agree with their way of thinking is not helping anyone. Would anyone who had a child who was a drug addict not let them know the way you feel about it and try to get them help? In a loving manner of course.

CHB   

A few years ago, I felt I could see my daughter being a little bit pulled or persuaded into checking out homosexuality.. Yes, spiritually, or by spirits (tho not all here would agree with such an observation). I prayed and prayed and rebuked those spirits.. It was during a time when it seemed to be a trend. A lot of young women were toying with the idea.. somewhere around the time or after Madonna, I think it was, had kissed another female artist.. I think. I'm not very up on celebrity doings.. My daughter of course knows how I and her dad feel about the issue.

That said, although I feel very strongly and prayed real hard when it concerned my own daughter, when it comes to others, I basically don't say much if anything.. If a door is opened or someone asks, then yes, of course I will. And I instruct 'em, when they're children! But other than that, not much, as it's been published far and wide that to express an opinion about it.. well, you get labeled as a hater. Which as some posts further down say, is a more grievous thing! I don't tell couples who cohabit without being married that it's not God's way, either! I don't tell people not to cuss.. not to smoke.. nothing.. I might tell some folks about being moderate in all things.. that's about it. Am I right? or am I just chicken? :Chinscratch:  :laughing7: I do tell folks (mostly unchurched folks) about UR and almost anybody who will listen about 'end' days Bible prophecy.. and I do talk about the innocent preborn (but almost always courteously). :Peace2:

I am the same way about telling people whether they are right or wrong about anything. But if I get the oportunity I usually take it and say something depending on who it is and the situation. We have to use dIscernment in these matters.

CHB

Amen! :iagree:

Quote from: reFORMer on March 22, 2013, 07:44:31 AM

Quote from: shawn on March 21, 2013, 07:05:54 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is that this is not a theocracy.  It's a democracy, where people should be afforded the right to choose their own path not directed by the Bible or our belief system.  It's about equal rights for all races, creeds, and lifestyles.  It is not our job to dictate legislation of morality specifically one that does not harm others.

(Of course, the entire world is a theocracy, but just keep it under your hat for now.  Very few seem to want to think of it that way.)  Morality dictated by the state is unacceptable to good Americans or Christians; but, that is certainly what is happening.  To publicaly call homosexuality a sin is increasingly considered a thought crime, a crime against the state, one for which our children can be taken away from us to be raised by the state instead.  If we do not stand for Christian morality we lose ground to statism.  They are the ones changing the system.  It is exactly because homosexuality does great harm to others we must be allowed to speak in the public square.

Not sure I understood any of that.  Adultery, divorce, premarital sex etc are all sin...sins that can harm others.  Do we make them illegal?  Do we take away legal rights afforded to US citizens because they engage in these behaviors?  Frankly, that thought scares me.  It looks much like the Middle East.

The fact is this, yes homosexuality is sin.  But, to say those who engage this behavior should have less rights than yourself is inconsistent, prejudicial and arbitrary.

American citizens should be afforded all rights independent of religious belief systems.  I do not want preachers, pastors, priests etc dictating law to American citizens. 

As for all the talk of the state taking our kids if we talk out against homosexuality, well I have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote from: CHB on March 22, 2013, 04:36:57 PM
I think homosexuality is an addiction just like drugs and alcohol can become addictions. I have some fqamily members who are drug addicts and alcoholics, they know I don't approve of this but they also know I love them. Only God can change a person. I believe we should let them know these things are not good for them as well as for society but all the while let them know we love them and God loves them more. To look the other way, or go along and agree with their way of thinking is not helping anyone. Would anyone who had a child who was a drug addict not let them know the way you feel about it and try to get them help? In a loving manner of course.

CHB   

I think for some you are right.  I believe some have sexual addictions, and are so numb to most sexual stimuli, only something as outrageous as same sex relations pushes those reward pathways in the brain.  They use sex like a drug, pushing the limits with odder and odder sexual acts.

But, I'm convinced there are many others who were born this way.  To ask them to be with the opposite sex, would be like asking you to be with the same sex.  For me, this is where it gets trickier.  If you are wired to be with the same sex, you settle down with one person you love, get married and seek a relationship with God...does God reject that person?  Only God really knows the answer to that question.  So, I err on the side of love rather than making it my mission to tell the world how homosexuals are bad and evil people.  I do so, because I have sinned much in my life.  I have no room to judge any man.  I do so because I want to be an extension of Gods grace and love.

I'm going to describe the video a bit more because nobody has commented about it yet which probably means no one has watched it.

This man realized he was different around college age. He realized he wasn't attracted to women like all of his friends were. He knew that the bible called homosexuality a sin. He decided to do as much as he could to be a "good" christian, hoping that God would take away his desires for other men. He was very involved in the church, reading his bible, leading people to salvation, eventually working his way up the religious ladder. All the religious leaders loved him and told him he would be their replacement one day. However he realized that his desire for men was not going away, it was getting stronger. He begged God to take it away, doing everything he thought God wanted from him, believing if he was good enough God would change him. Wasn't working. He went to his leader one day and confessed that he was afraid he was going to screw up big time, that he was going to fall. The man asked what he meant and he told him - he struggled big time with homosexual desires. The man stared at him for a while and finally told him to take his things and leave. This happened a few more times and finally he had had enough. He said screw God, screw christianity, I can't fight this anymore.

He started living an openly gay lifestyle, completely gave up on church and God. He loved his new friends, they welcomed him with open arms and accepted him just the way he was. He got a boyfriend and a house and settled down. But he knew something was still lacking.

One day he heard Father's voice - "I love you." He was stunned. He started to hear it more frequently, and at times when many would think Father would've rained down fire and brimstone - in a gay bar, after being promiscuous, etc. Finally one day after hearing Father speaking to him he freaked out. He yelled at God, "I did everything I could! You created me like this, it's your fault I'm this way and you hold it against me!! I prayed, went to church, read my bible, led people to You, and you still didn't take it away!! I can't please You! I want nothing to do with You! Leave me alone!!" Father asked him after all that, "Are you finished?" He said, "Yes..." (Thinking he was about to be struck by lightning LOL.) Father said, "When did I ever ask you to do any of those things?" He said, "Huh?? I thought that's what You wanted from me?? That's what everybody told me You wanted." Father said, "You never asked me what I wanted." So he said, "Ok... what do You want?"

Father said, "I want your heart."

He said, "No God. I love my friends. I love my boyfriend. I love being gay. I refuse to give that up." Father said, "I never asked you to give those up. I want your heart." He said, "You mean I can keep my friends, my boyfriend, my gay lifestyle? You're not asking me to give those up?" Father said, "No, I just want your heart." So finally he said, "Okay God, if that's all You want, You can have my heart."

Thus began his love affair with the Lord! The Lord drew him in and gradually His love changed him. His Saviour was the love he had been looking for all along. His love filled him and he eventually left the gay lifestyle. He was LOVED FIRST. AS HE WAS. THEN AND ONLY THEN WAS HE CHANGED.

BEAUTIFUL AND AWESOME IS THE LOVE OF GOD!!!

That is quite a beautiful story Lomarah. 

I watched that video Lomarah.   Couple huge things where said...

1) Repentence was a product of living in forgiveness.  As your heart responds to Gods forgiveness (already given), our behaviors change as a result.

2) the pastor made an observation about the gay community being warm and welcoming, and how the church so often misses the mark in this regard.

Thank you for posting that. 

PS I recommend if people don't want to watch the whole video, watch from minute 33 on.  Listening to this guys advice for how to love the homosexual, the addict, the prostitute etc. was right on...IMO.

I watched it Lomarah, and wanted to say something, just hadn't yet..was mulling something about it.  It was interesting.  I was glad it ended with him turning from his sin with God's help (really, empowered Him to do so).  Hallelujah!  Willy (the delivered homosexual) personally recommended to love and accept the homosexual, but to not agree with their lifestyle - which is what many have said during this type discussion.   :thumbsup:

It did raise the question for me - what about the person (there are thousands of them in the Unitarian Universalist and Metropolitan "Church" for example) who proclaim they know Jesus, yet are "gay affirming", i.e., "come and STAY as you are, God doesn't care", etc.  They go through the motions of attending services - I even know one woman personally who's "married" to her female partner, and she's attending seminary and practicing sermons - yet they say and preach that the homosexual lifestyle is holy, OK with God, not a sin, the Bible doesn't say anything about it, etc.  The fellow in the video was sought out and changed by God's love, directly to him.  That's great, reminds me of Saul/Apostle Paul.  It seems obvious it was God's will to deliver him and save him from the lifestyle.  Puzzles me about those that stay in it, "celebrating"  and condoning it - despite saying they know God.  I'm not saying many of them haven't had their spirits saved, but IMO, the scriptures are clear that lifestyle (as well as many others) isn't pleasing to God - so it seems at some point, although loving them, that when God leads, the truth still needs to be spoken - in love.   :2c:   

As others have said, and I've also said before - I don't go around "preaching" at homosexuals (or anyone else) screaming at them to repent, they're going to burn in hell, etc.  I've got my own sins, I don't need to go around punching others in the face about theirs.  I still think it behooves us to speak the truth though, as we understand it, no matter what it pertains to, when we're called/given the opportunity to do so.  Love is great, and it's "greatest" of all the things mentioned in I Cor. 13.  But the scriptures also say many other things for us to be aware of  besides love.

I have the opportunity to interact, be friendly acquaintances with several who are openly living that lifestyle.  It can be tricky, and I don't have the perfect formula for it.  But I personally don't feel it's right for me to to do anything that might show apparent approval and support to their lifestyle.  OTOH, rejecting them, ostracizing them, not being kind and loving etc., would also be wrong.  I've never done so, but if ever directly asked, I'd hope I'd have the Godly guts to say something like "I believe in loving everyone, God loves everyone, but I believe the Bible teaches, along with many other sins, that the lifestyle is wrong - and He wants to deliver us from anything that keeps us from from being in close relationship with Him.  He'll save and deliver us if we believe on Him and trust Him, etc.".  Another  :2c:  I might would wimp out though, I'm not sure.  He'd have to help me say the right words in the right attitude.

Just for clarification Jabcat.  I'm not sure anyone here was saying we as Christians should "agree" with the homosexual lifestyle. 

No, I didn't think so...I just think it can be tricky (at least for me) to be loving while not getting caught up in the "stuff".  Like we probably wouldn't want to talk a lot and laugh/enjoy someone talking about someone robbing a bank, raping someone, etc.  I don't know, maybe somebody has some ideas/personal experiences on what worked for them.

Here's an example.  A fellow I work with, who with God's help, I really try to go out of my way to be pleasant, kind to, etc. (God really had to discipline me about it and help me).   One day I came into a meeting and he was laughing and saying that some of those present had given themselves nicknames, and his was "Tinkerbell".  He said, I guess you know I'm Tinkerbell".  I just personally don't feel right getting caught up in that type of "humor" or other detailed conversations/activities, and TO ME, showing support acceptance of the lifestyle in that manner.  Don't know if that makes sense or not - typing this quickly.  Or talking in detail about another lesbian coworker's "marriage", their trip, the ceremony, their dresses, etc...I just personally prefer to pass on those details - without seeming a prude or rejecting, etc.  Again, that tricky "balance" of loving the sinner but not approving of/participating in the sin.   :dontknow:

Maybe just smiling at him, the person, without getting into a lot commenting/interacting about the topic...

Quote from: jabcat on March 25, 2013, 03:45:32 AM
No, I didn't think so...I just think it can be tricky (at least for me) to be loving while not getting caught up in the "stuff".  Like we probably wouldn't want to talk a lot and laugh/enjoy someone talking about someone robbing a bank, raping someone, etc.  I don't know, maybe somebody has some ideas/personal experiences on what worked for them.

Here's an example.  A fellow I work with, who with God's help, I really try to go out of my way to be pleasant, kind to, etc. (God really had to discipline me about it and help me).   One day I came into a meeting and he was laughing and saying that some of those present had given themselves nicknames, and his was "Tinkerbell".  He said, I guess you know I'm Tinkerbell".  I just personally don't feel right getting caught up in that type of "humor" or other detailed conversations/activities, and TO ME, showing support acceptance of the lifestyle in that manner.  Don't know if that makes sense or not - typing this quickly.  Or talking in detail about another lesbian coworker's "marriage", their trip, the ceremony, their dresses, etc...I just personally prefer to pass on those details - without seeming a prude or rejecting, etc.  Again, that tricky "balance" of loving the sinner but not approving of/participating in the sin.   :dontknow:

I agree it's tough.  I work with an openly gay recovering meth addict.  He is probably the best counselor we have, and is one of the most loving, kind, and helpful human beings I have ever met.  He considers himself a man of Christian faith, and has a comfort with that.  He claims to be active in his faith, and by the fruit of his love towards others I believe him.   I have no idea if he is "active" in his homosexuality, nor do I care to know.  If he is comfortable with himself, and his relationship to God...then who am I to come in and say something to disrupt his peace he has found with God?  It doesn't mean I "condone" it...it means I'm not comfortable judging another mans heart with God, sin or no sin.

As for course joking about homosexuality, well that goes for any course joking about promiscuous sexual activity that ones on outside the bounds of marriage.  We shouldnt engage any of it.  Not as a statement against homosexuality, but as a part of being separate.  I believe many of us feel a need to politicize and have tough stances against homosexuality, because we feel it reflects on our faith...or lack there of.  In the mist of worrying about ourselves we trample others, instead of embracing them allowing God to change their hearts and minds.   :2c:

Quote from: jabcat on March 25, 2013, 03:59:45 AM
Maybe just smiling at him, the person, without getting into a lot commenting/interacting about the topic...

Why do we feel the need to make our opinion known at all?  If we don't engage any course sex talk, people begin to understand.  We can then spend our energy loving and accepting others in their current state, just as Christ would.

Quote from: shawn on March 25, 2013, 04:08:36 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 25, 2013, 03:59:45 AM
Maybe just smiling at him, the person, without getting into a lot commenting/interacting about the topic...

Why do we feel the need to make our opinion known at all?  If we don't engage any course sex talk, people begin to understand.  We can then spend our energy loving and accepting others in their current state, just as Christ would.

Nah, making my opinion known isn't my point..It's your second sentence I'm addressing - to jest or not to jest (join in).

What Christ did with people is an interesting topic in itself.  Everyone He loved.  Some people He chastised.  Others He totally changed by His presence.  Others, He seemed to leave them just as they were.  I think there's a whole lot involved in that topic, and would probably make a good thread.   :2c:

Quote from: jabcat on March 25, 2013, 04:13:23 AM

Quote from: shawn on March 25, 2013, 04:08:36 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 25, 2013, 03:59:45 AM
Maybe just smiling at him, the person, without getting into a lot commenting/interacting about the topic...

Why do we feel the need to make our opinion known at all?  If we don't engage any course sex talk, people begin to understand.  We can then spend our energy loving and accepting others in their current state, just as Christ would.

Nah, making my opinion known isn't my point..It's your second sentence I'm addressing - to jest or not to jest (join in).

What Christ did with people is an interesting topic in itself.  Everyone He loved.  Some people He chastised.  Others He totally changed by His presence.  Others, He seemed to leave them just as they were.  I think there's a whole lot involved in that topic, and would probably make a good thread.   :2c:

I definitely think we should never join in course sex talk of any kind.  Tinkerbell and effeminate terms are not only not funny and derogatory they refer to a nature for man that I do not believe God intended.  I see nothing wrong with excusing ourselves from such conversation with tact.

Agreed.   :thumbsup:

I believe part of the issue is we make homosexual lifestyle a scapegoat.Christians in general will never partake in this lifestyle and so will villefy it .tax evasion never gets this kind of attention.Adultery in time seems to lose it's sting , As well
Lying ,cheating,coveting,other gods,we are all guilty but these things don't raise the same ire
I wonder why? ,like I said .....scapegoat, ?!

It's possible you're right o.t., at least for some. I think of other questions that raises about it as well;  such as why were some things in the OT required by God to bring the penalty of death, while others were not.  Why would God destroy 2 whole cities for their sin, with the apparent final straw being the issue of sodomy?

There may be multiple reasons.  IMO, some things are more against nature than others.  Some things are more dangerous to society than others, and so forth.  Also, on a human level, I believe some things are simply more repulsive (to some/many) than others - not that they're necessarily "worse" sins, but even more against "good taste" than others.  A goofy example - if someone pushes me down, I may not like it.  If someone pushes me down into the emptied contents of a couple of Johnny-On-The-Spots (outdoor toilets), I'm going to like it even less.

I'm actually sorry to speak of some of this, but it's real stuff.  Other examples I think of;  any rape is bad, but what about rape against a helpless elderly person?  Or a disabled person.  Child.  Any murder is bad.  How about the comparison between murder of a 30 year old  strong man in a fight, vs. of a pregnant woman walking down the street?  What about the person who is a glutton but they have a higher metabolism, so they're only 20 pounds overweight, vs. the person who's also a glutton, but they weigh 500 pounds and have gotten to where they can't walk or really reasonably function in society?  They're all sin and wrong, but don't some just "set worse" than others to the human psyche?  I struggle with a food addiction/gluttony, but looking at me, you would probably never think it.  I'm usually able to control it pretty well, but periodically I "let down" and binge to a pretty ridiculous degree.  I may look athletic/whatever, but my begetting sin is still a sin.  A lot of people would probably say "oh, you don"t have a problem", whereas, someone who was so big they couldn't function, would more readily be identified or even vilified - though the sin is the same.   But doesn't it seem there's some things that generally strike us different than others?  I believe certain things just affect some people differently than other, with some things just feeling more "un-natural", or repulsive.

Maybe there are some who can more easily separate it out and it doesn't really have any felt "degrees" to them.  Those may be the folks who just better deal with it for whatever reason.  But then they may be totally grossed out the point of gagging over somebody picking their nose.   :laughing7:      In general though, I do think humans perceive things this way.  :dontknow:  Maybe our own individual make-ups, wounds, up-bringing, and experiences, etc., enter in there too.  I think as with most things, there are many aspects to it and it can be complicated if we dig at it a lot.  Probably a good reason to try to remember some basic things;  such as the old "hate the sin, love the sinner".  Isn't that what God does?  Isn't that what the Bible teaches over and over, in many illustrations?  Jesus and Paul both really taught about sins.  They even both disciplined individuals.  Yet they both loved everyone.   Just some thoughts, on a subject that really interests me (human behavior).  Blessings brother. 

So, you are comparing homosexuality to molesting a child?  Wow, that is quite a stretch.  I have a hard time comparing a sin where two adults agree to an act with one where there is an underaged victim who can't consent.  That appears to be "your stuff" more than a properly constructed comparison.  I agree with Jabcat that some sins carry more consequences and seem more "against nature" thus carrying more stigma. We are all sick people in our own ways (some less than others), but if you believe you are not because you haven't engaged certain thoughts or acts...more power to you.  I am guilty of murder, sexual sin, addiction, vices of many kinds, dishonesty etc....either through thought or deed.  I love much because I have been forgiven much.  If you prefer to focus on the assaults of satan, and calling blocks of people demonic then that is your perrogative.  Personally, I choose to spend my mental/spiritual energies elsewhere.

Quote from: jabcat on March 25, 2013, 02:39:42 AM
I watched it Lomarah, and wanted to say something, just hadn't yet..was mulling something about it.  It was interesting.  I was glad it ended with him turning from his sin with God's help (really, empowered Him to do so).  Hallelujah!  Willy (the delivered homosexual) personally recommended to love and accept the homosexual, but to not agree with their lifestyle - which is what many have said during this type discussion.   :thumbsup:

It did raise the question for me - what about the person (there are thousands of them in the Unitarian Universalist and Metropolitan "Church" for example) who proclaim they know Jesus, yet are "gay affirming", i.e., "come and STAY as you are, God doesn't care", etc.  They go through the motions of attending services - I even know one woman personally who's "married" to her female partner, and she's attending seminary and practicing sermons - yet they say and preach that the homosexual lifestyle is holy, OK with God, not a sin, the Bible doesn't say anything about it, etc.  The fellow in the video was sought out and changed by God's love, directly to him.  That's great, reminds me of Saul/Apostle Paul.  It seems obvious it was God's will to deliver him and save him from the lifestyle.  Puzzles me about those that stay in it, "celebrating"  and condoning it - despite saying they know God.  I'm not saying many of them haven't had their spirits saved, but IMO, the scriptures are clear that lifestyle (as well as many others) isn't pleasing to God - so it seems at some point, although loving them, that when God leads, the truth still needs to be spoken - in love.   :2c:   

As others have said, and I've also said before - I don't go around "preaching" at homosexuals (or anyone else) screaming at them to repent, they're going to burn in hell, etc.  I've got my own sins, I don't need to go around punching others in the face about theirs.  I still think it behooves us to speak the truth though, as we understand it, no matter what it pertains to, when we're called/given the opportunity to do so.  Love is great, and it's "greatest" of all the things mentioned in I Cor. 13.  But the scriptures also say many other things for us to be aware of  besides love.

I have the opportunity to interact, be friendly acquaintances with several who are openly living that lifestyle.  It can be tricky, and I don't have the perfect formula for it.  But I personally don't feel it's right for me to to do anything that might show apparent approval and support to their lifestyle.  OTOH, rejecting them, ostracizing them, not being kind and loving etc., would also be wrong.  I've never done so, but if ever directly asked, I'd hope I'd have the Godly guts to say something like "I believe in loving everyone, God loves everyone, but I believe the Bible teaches, along with many other sins, that the lifestyle is wrong - and He wants to deliver us from anything that keeps us from from being in close relationship with Him.  He'll save and deliver us if we believe on Him and trust Him, etc.".  Another  :2c:  I might would wimp out though, I'm not sure.  He'd have to help me say the right words in the right attitude.

Great post Jab.   :thumbsup:

CHB

as all men have bore the image of the corrupt one..so,too,shall all bear the image of the incorrupt.

   this is not something we can do for ourselves..it does take divine intervention

    do we all not bear a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction? is He not able to of the same lump make

  one for a dishonourable purpose...and another for honorable purpose.?

    He wittnessed to us the state of things before His return...the state men would be in.......puffed up,

  lacking natural affection,lovers of themselves..lovers of pleasure.money.among other things.


   You will know I am the Lord when I deal with you for my Name's sake..and not according to your

detestable practices.  He will purge us all of anything that is not of Him.[we know the 'wicked generation'

perishes in the wilderness and does not enter into the Holy eternal realm]  it is the end of the

good/evil mix that is upon us.

   always take the revelation of the salvation of all men into account.   the good/evil mix we see in

ourselves and all men..will be dealt with of Him. So some men havebeen turned over to satan for the

destruction of the flesh..that the spirit be saved.... mustn't that which is corruptible put on the incorruptible?


   at present do we see evil manifested in men's flesh and works?  Most certainly..but the time is

coming when the wicked will be destroyed...but all men saved...wrap your head around that.

  sin/evil in the flesh has been condemned in the flesh of man...but LOOK! I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW!!

Quote from: sheila on March 25, 2013, 04:34:12 PM


    do we all not bear a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction? is He not able to of the same lump make

  one for a dishonourable purpose...and another for honorable purpose.?

 

I think I see the light here - each of us is a lump, from which God first makes a vessel (us) for a dishonorable purpose, that is to say, being a sinner in the here-and-now.  This vessel is made to destroy, fitted for destruction, and so, we die.  Later, He makes from the same lump, a vessel (again, us) for an honorable purpose, that is to say, being a glorified saint in the Kingdom. 

I will pour out my spirit on all flesh.  there are indeed scriptures that declare those who will not

enter into the kingdom of heaven....men who do such things..men who lie with men..etc..but look!

  that is what some of you were......so He has given evidence of what HE SHALL DO ON A LARGE SCALE!!

     He has not left us without example of His intentions and capabilities....

   DO YOU BELEIVE NOTHING CAN SEPERATE MANKIND FROM THE LOVE OF GOD SHOWN IN CHRIST JESUS?

   I AM CONVINCED..............

   BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD....WHO SHALL TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR SIN..........

Laz - I was just thanking Father for destroying my flesh last night! I have never seen that so clearly before!  :cloud9:

Sheila...  :banana:  :banana:  :banana: !!!!

Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 25, 2013, 04:44:35 PM

Quote from: sheila on March 25, 2013, 04:34:12 PM


    do we all not bear a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction? is He not able to of the same lump make

  one for a dishonourable purpose...and another for honorable purpose.?

 

I think I see the light here - each of us is a lump, from which God first makes a vessel (us) for a dishonorable purpose, that is to say, being a sinner in the here-and-now.  This vessel is made to destroy, fitted for destruction, and so, we die.  Later, He makes from the same lump, a vessel (again, us) for an honorable purpose, that is to say, being a glorified saint in the Kingdom.

This may go un-noticed being sort of in the middle.. while reading "12 more posts have been added" rofl.. yes, I'm a little slow.. watching 2 preschoolers..

I think the above quote is good and ok as long as we don't strip the Word of it's literal meaning.. that some vessels are for honorable use (know their salvation before their death/i.e. during this lifetime/age).. and some vessels dishonorable, who "die in their sins" and those goats at Armageddon [making, imo, a well rounded story and truth drama, the purpose of which is to write God's law (deeply) upon every heart, mind and psyche / part of the metaphor and allegory application, but also quite literal]    :hithere: :smile:

something I'm wondering.. about homosexuality.. I know in the OT God said to stone the witch, the murderer (if not by accident), the adulterer.. etc.. I know that's the Old Covenant and that's what this response is about.. In Leviticus 18, where it says Homosexuality is an abomination (detestable) and lying with an animal (bestiality it's called) is perversion (confusion) but a few verses down it says "don't do any of these abominations". The chapter is a description of what "the nations" in the land were doing and why God abhorred them..

The law though still God's law, was in the OT for Israel so there would be a place somewhat prepared for the coming of Jesus (the 1st time) as opposed to coming in the midst of tree worshipers or something. [Besides the way those other nations were going, things would have fast progressed into all the world, back to the stage of "every thought of every person was constantly evil".]

None of these things of course, will be in the kIngdom! For which I'm sure is reason to be very joyful and thankful!

The thing I'm wondering is, since this is a different age.. where Christianity pushed much of this aside for a season/age.. And this is what some call a different 'dispensation'.. where the blood of Christ covers the sin of believers, a much better covering than those of the OT.

What I'm trying to say, and aren't doing very well, is God was extra strict with Israel and the nations (which sacrificed live babies to baal and molech, which was the last straw with God, psalm6?106? - and may be what was also practiced in Sodom and Gomorrah, even though men named the town Sodom) - Stricter with Israel because the tiny sliver of Israel was to be, so to speak, swaddling cloths for the Savior of the world.

I'm not saying all the things of lev 18 are not all still very detestable, including today..

And the church definitely should not be teaching that any of these are ok, nor stealing and fraud, adultery, murder, etc. I sure hope the churches do not fill up with the likes of all that!! Some of the church, yes has fallen away.. We can thank the teaching and philosophy (prophet) of 'evolution' as to origins for that. Many churches and christian schools have compromised with the world on that, even though True science does not support it.. Compromised in the name of peace, but doing so has made God out to be a liar. Genesis is no longer believed - that sin brought death - not millions of years of death before man and woman even lived!

And therefor if you let go chunks of God's Word, why should the next and upcoming generation not drop other chunks? And thus generation to generation, what was once called Christendom or a Christian world (western civilization) has steadily eroded. And actually, most people don't know any better (for the most part)..

Anyway, I think Jabcat hit the nail on the head with his posts!! A very good balance.. Yet also, some are repulsed by homosexuality.. Folks like to say homosexuality is 'natural', which of course we disagree with, but if they can say that, why isn't it true that heterosexuals are naturally repulsed by it? Jes sayin'..

Also, I'm not so sure as many christians or church goers are 'against' homosexual folks as an opposing political party lets on!! I think far more embrace what JABCAT (and others) have described, which is not approving, but being friendly, tho not encouraging of the lifestyle.

Perhaps, feeling that Jesus' Kingdom "is not of this world" - I for one, am not all hep with trying to legislate pro or con on some of these issues. [To me small government, legislature, is better government, less chance of tyranny, thus delaying the day..]

sorry to be so long winded couldn't spit it out as the saying goes.. :icon_jokercolor:

we all have our own little goat and Lamb..in the same vessel....He will seperate the people one from another

   'like" a shepherd seperates the goats from the Lambs[since we are all good/evil mix]thus the

  unlawful mixing of the tokogae.

.......without spot or blemish[see Jude]  He give His life that He may present man to Himself without spot or

blemish, and He will.......remove all sin.   you will pass under the rod..and I will bring you into the covenant

  and I will purge you.

  we all await the redemption of our body..or deliverance from this body undergoing this death[restoration]

    ..now...the pot may call the kettle black..but they both need a good scouring by the hand of the Lord.


     

   

Quote from: sheila on March 25, 2013, 09:01:56 PM

    ..now...the pot may call the kettle black..but they both need a good scouring by the hand of the Lord.

:ghaha: Absolutely!!! :smile:

I have been blessed in life by having a lot of homosexual friends.

There I go.. I said it..blessed. How on earth is this a blessing? The Lord has used these people to humble myself, and to show me that his love extends out to even the most "repulsive", to the most "undeserving" to the people that stay in their sin.

I have witnessed my gay friend breaking down on my living room floor, screaming out "GOD WHY ME!?!WHY AM I GAY!!", I have witnessed the hurt and agony the gay community feel in regards to the church, I have had gay friends confess to me that they believe in God, but they don't know how to move forwards, when they feel stuck, when they feel like they are are a disgusting, filthy... when they feel unacceptable. 

Gay people will be gay, that is reality. Our hating of their sin and won't change anything (because sub consciously not matter how much we profess we love them, we always think you are what you do), our love for them as people with God's help will.

Two days ago God opened my mind to something I have not thought of before.

Love is a doing thing. It is a feeling that manifests itself in actions.
I myself am guilty of sitting there and proclaiming love for pedophiles, terrorists and all sorts. Do I love them? Really truly love these enemies of mine? I think of my high school bully, if I saw she needed help with something, would I be the first to reach out a helping hand? Love is not ignoring someone, and love is not just simply managing not to hate someone. Love is caring about someone, love is...

patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.


I remember awhile ago I came across a pedophile online on a website he created for pedophiles to gather and chat about abandoning pedophilia, he was not practicing his "mental illness" (That's how he put it) instead he is focusing on God. I was accepting of this UNTIL he mentioned that he occasionally still struggles with his sin mentally, that is when I went off my rocket and washed my hands clean of him, thinking to myself no man that has a relationship with God surly can have such thoughts. My love failed. Shame on me!

Friends, I know I'm blessed to have these people in my life, they open up to me because they know I love them, and that is the opportunity to talk about Jesus, the light that shines on all darkness, this is my opportunity to be with the brokenhearted, and to let God use me so these people no longer feel like a lost cause. We are called to witness Christ and the love he bears for us all. No one is a lost cause to our Heavenly Father.  :HeartThrob:

Thanks for the good input guys.  It seems we're mostly pretty close to the idea of, "don't accept or reinforce the sin [any of our sins], but love the person and hope to win them".  I agree with Molly regarding the point we've reached.  I also don't think there's any going back, and things won't be fixed until God is all in all;  when all sin has been dealt with, the kingdoms of the earth and in our flesh torn down, and the reconciliation occurs.  In the meantime, there's a process that we'll all experience - and I don't think it's generally going to be fun.   :2c:  Labor pains, all creation groaning.  Blessings.

misszoo, it sounds like you might have some things to share on how you balance/resolve this that might be helpful.  I.e., what you've found that works for you to love the person, but not reinforce, participate in, show approval of their behavior.  My guess is, sometimes you feel like you get it right, and as you note, sometimes you feel like you fumble it - which I think is common to our experiences.

OTOH, might it help some of those you interact with - including the friend who was in such agony - to remind them that there's a big difference between having tendencies, urges, thoughts, feeling, temptations - and even sometimes slips/failures   vs.  on-going, unrepentant, rationalizing, uncaring actual practice of the behavior?  To varying degrees, I think we all are born with tendencies, weakness, etc., but we're responsible for what we do with them - i.e., uncaringly act on and attempt to justify them, or take it to the Lord in weakness for His forgiveness, help, and deliverance.   :2c:

Hey Jab,
I can't exactly remember how I began loving and having homosexuals as friends (In fact they probably make up 50% of my friends with three of my best friends being gay) .  It started when I was 14, I was drawn to gay people and they were drawn to me. Sounds strange I know, but I never saw them as anything different when I was younger, and being bullied constantly by girls I then saw gay guys as the next best thing.

They know I am a Christian, but due to our friendship, we do not disrespect each other. They understand that because of what I believe, I do not endorse gay marriage. But here is the thing, I haven't told them that, they just know, just like they haven't told me what they really think of the majority of Christians, they know I know. There is no need for discussion about who's right and wrong, just pure friendship. If they had a hard time and wanted to open up the door to God, they know they can come to me.

I am the exception to these people, I am a friend, a helper, a supporter and a good friend to chat too. I'm not just that "Christian", and they are the same to me, they are not just that "gay person".
They are Josh, Jimmy, Aaron, Onyx, Sam they all have names, feelings, strengths and weaknesses.

Some of my gay friends are super conservative, some super flamboyant..Do any of them influence me? No more than a straight woman or man! I find actually being 21, and having crazy hormones, it is more safer to spend my time with my gay male friends, then my straight male friends! if you know what I mean  :LH:

See the thing is we can tell people straight up that we don't approve of their behavior, but that is not going to change things. They already know that we don't approve! Are they going to change because I simply tell them what they are doing is wrong? No, I have more of a chance showing Christ to gays by interacting with as many gay people as possible, being there for them and offering them pure friendship rather than treating them like they are diseased.

Thanks misszoo.

It sounds like you're able to interact with them (a lot?) without feeling like you're crossing any boundaries regarding seeming to support their lifestyle and choices?  It also sounds like you try to witness to them (in various ways, without "slamming" them) when you're around them. 

Gay people have choices, they have the freedom to choose what they want to do with their lives,
They just find it ALOT harder to choose the opposite sex.
Do I think gay people are born gay?.. I am not sure.
I do know that lack of a father or a male role model has a lot to do with it (gay men) I am unsure with gay women.

What boundaries would I cross if I interact with gay people a lot? Well they already know that I think it is a sin... I support the person, but at the end of the day no matter how I think otherwise they will make their own decisions. It's up to me whether I am going to be the one that is going to offer good news when times get tough.
Am I friends with alcoholics, drug abusers and fornicators? You bet ya! I see them as no different. I can have intelligent conversations with just about anyone, and if the conversation turns ugly and vulgar..easy I just change the subject :)

In my generation, with the way things are going in the world I can not afford to box myself up with just my fellow Christians, that is too safe, too secure. I feel the Lord is calling me for other things, I feel as a young person there a many paths that are before me, but mainly.. the easy path, and the hard path. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: misszoolander on March 26, 2013, 06:01:55 AM
What boundaries would I cross if I interact with gay people a lot?

Was this sort of a rhetorical question to transition into your next few lines, or was it a question for me to attempt to answer?  Thanks.

Just a rhetorical question..  :Peace2: Sorry for any confusion.

I must say all though this is the way I feel about things, it might not suit everyone.  :2c:

:)

Quote from: misszoolander on March 25, 2013, 10:47:50 PM
I have been blessed in life by having a lot of homosexual friends.

There I go.. I said it..blessed. How on earth is this a blessing? The Lord has used these people to humble myself, and to show me that his love extends out to even the most "repulsive", to the most "undeserving" to the people that stay in their sin.

I have witnessed my gay friend breaking down on my living room floor, screaming out "GOD WHY ME!?!WHY AM I GAY!!", I have witnessed the hurt and agony the gay community feel in regards to the church, I have had gay friends confess to me that they believe in God, but they don't know how to move forwards, when they feel stuck, when they feel like they are are a disgusting, filthy... when they feel unacceptable. 

Gay people will be gay, that is reality. Our hating of their sin and won't change anything (because sub consciously not matter how much we profess we love them, we always think you are what you do), our love for them as people with God's help will.

Two days ago God opened my mind to something I have not thought of before.

Love is a doing thing. It is a feeling that manifests itself in actions.
I myself am guilty of sitting there and proclaiming love for pedophiles, terrorists and all sorts. Do I love them? Really truly love these enemies of mine? I think of my high school bully, if I saw she needed help with something, would I be the first to reach out a helping hand? Love is not ignoring someone, and love is not just simply managing not to hate someone. Love is caring about someone, love is...

patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.


I remember awhile ago I came across a pedophile online on a website he created for pedophiles to gather and chat about abandoning pedophilia, he was not practicing his "mental illness" (That's how he put it) instead he is focusing on God. I was accepting of this UNTIL he mentioned that he occasionally still struggles with his sin mentally, that is when I went off my rocket and washed my hands clean of him, thinking to myself no man that has a relationship with God surly can have such thoughts. My love failed. Shame on me!

Friends, I know I'm blessed to have these people in my life, they open up to me because they know I love them, and that is the opportunity to talk about Jesus, the light that shines on all darkness, this is my opportunity to be with the brokenhearted, and to let God use me so these people no longer feel like a lost cause. We are called to witness Christ and the love he bears for us all. No one is a lost cause to our Heavenly Father.  :HeartThrob:

Beautiful post.  And I think if we are all honest , most if not all of us have groups of people we struggle to love.  We have all failed in this regard.

Zoo, you touched on something that is very important.  Your gay friends know how you feel about certain issues, yet want to be friends with you.  Why?  Likely because you live love, and that is what attracts people to others and ultimately to Christ.  You also stated, that soap boxing doesn't change behavior.  I agree.  Today, if I soap box, pounding my fist against homosexuality letting everyone know I AM CHRISTIAN and HOMOSEXUALITY is an abomination...that was for me...not for anyone else.  Why?  Because it's ineffective, and it makes me feel better about "standing strong for what I believe".  That is easy.  It's much harder to love those whos lifestyles you do not agree with.  It's much harder to fight for the rights of people who are not like you.

Quote from: shawn on March 21, 2013, 09:31:55 PM
We all have worth.  It's about how our worth is defined.  Our worth is not defined by deeds, works, morality etc.  It's defined by the love of our God.

:dsunny: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: shawn on March 26, 2013, 04:12:41 PM
Zoo, you touched on something that is very important.  Your gay friends know how you feel about certain issues, yet want to be friends with you.  Why?  Likely because you live love, and that is what attracts people to others and ultimately to Christ.  You also stated, that soap boxing doesn't change behavior.  I agree.  Today, if I soap box, pounding my fist against homosexuality letting everyone know I AM CHRISTIAN and HOMOSEXUALITY is an abomination...that was for me...not for anyone else.  Why?  Because it's ineffective, and it makes me feel better about "standing strong for what I believe".  That is easy.  It's much harder to love those whos lifestyles you do not agree with.  It's much harder to fight for the rights of people who are not like you.

Exactly Shawn, this is how I see things. Works do not earn us love from our Heavenly Father, so it should be with us and other people. It was the love of Jesus that transformed our hearts, and we must witness this to others, so they themselves can feel the love of God, we are all outrageously loved by him.  :dsunny:

It is important to not only TELL PEOPLE God loves them- but also to ACTUALLY LOVE THEM. Whatever the sin/issue/difference. It is also important that we are LED BY THE SPIRIT in all things.

God has not appointed us to judge anyone. We are appointed to display discernment with the salt of God's love.

Some sins are more immediately destructive than other sins. Some people love their sins and some people hate them but cannot break through them yet. Some people are seeking deliverance but have NEVER HEARD THE WORD OF DELIVERANCE- only the word of ciondemnation- WHICH IS NOT OF GOD.

As for vessels of honor and dishonor- all the vessels of honor walk in the wisdom and love of God by grace.

Many a vessel of dishonor has Jesus stickers all over it and a hard damning word for everyone who appears to be, or is, held captive by the enemy to do his will, trapped in chains of addiction, or pschological dysfunction, or spiritual confusion. But even when a person is morally depraved in a wilful way, the word of deliverance is the answer for them- not the word of condemnation. Discernment is never delivered in a spirit of condemnation, but it can still get you hated and killed :o), because....

At the same time we have to understand, God is not ashamed of righteousness- or the WOPRD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. He loves everyone, but He will shine the light on all things, until every thing that is hidden in darkness is brought up and into the cleansing, purifying light. Sometimes we are to be that light- speaking the truth in love- and we will be hated for it. This is a part of our righteousness too- and a finction of our grace, however.....

IMO, Jesus spent a lot more time rebuking religious hypocrites than "sinners".

One of the best shorter books on homosexuality -- actually the #1 preferred book by ex-gay Christians, -- is by Thomas E. Schmidt, Straight and Narrow?  Compassion and Clarity in the Homosexual Debate (Downers Grove:  InterVarsity, 1995)

Weighing in at 520 pages, ex-gay Christians as well as the academic community consider this the foremost on all the Scripture has to say on homosexuality:  Robert A. J. Gagnon, The Bible and Homosexual Practice:  Texts and Hermeneutics (Abingdon Press:  Nashville, 2001)