How to adjust

[VineBranch]

But does  what they preach become living a  lie when they do not do as they say ?  showing that they do not abide in the truth  making them a faithless   generation  doomed to fail  ?

Absolutely.

My response was merely to MLCCP's statement:  "[in] Matthew, Chapter 23 Jesus blisters the  Pharisees because of their bad theology."  My reading was that Christ took umbrage with their lives, not their words (theology). It was just a differing of opinions, that's all.

[rosered]

    Thank you VineBranch
I understand .

   But I found it all  so interesting when looking into it a bit deeper , I can appreciate everyones contributions  to the thread   :thumbsup:

   Many blessings to you and yours

[ded2daworld]

This is what I mean by knowing correct theology and knowing what pleases the Father:

Hypothetical:
I have 2 sons. I ask the eldest to mow the lawn. This son knows and loves landscaping, he can take the mower apart and put it back together, he can identify and name the 3 types of grass growing at our house. He says, "I will" but then goes off to a friends house to spend the day.
I ask the younger son to mow the lawn.  I've had to show him how to start the mower in the past. He can barely tell the difference between grass and green shag carpet, he hates landscaping activities. He says, "I won't" but later changes his mind and mows the lawn. Which of these 2 sons did what I asked?

In the same way, our father says, if you love, truly love, everything else will be taken care of.

[MLCCP]

The Pharisees had bad theology and misled people. Jesus tells them that they go out and try to convert people, and they do more harm than good. (My paraphrase). On top of that, they seemed to have the attitude of don't do as I do, do as I say.

My point is that if your theology is bad, you can't worship in spirit and truth, since theology is nothing more than defining what that truth is.

One person holds to a theology that God tortures people forever without any chance of escape. Another holds that God does not torture people forever and there is always hope of escape. Both theologies can't be right. The law of contradiction is valid. To me, theology matters.

[VineBranch]

The Pharisees had bad theology and misled people. Jesus tells them that they go out and try to convert people, and they do more harm than good. (My paraphrase). On top of that, they seemed to have the attitude of don't do as I do, do as I say.

My point is that if your theology is bad, you can't worship in spirit and truth, since theology is nothing more than defining what that truth is.

But if Christ told the people to do what the Pharisees said, then He was promoting what their 'theology' said.  I don't think Christ would have been telling people to do something He thought was bad.  Do you?

[ded2daworld]

IMO - Christ told the pharisees that they obeyed the letter of the law - and that it was good they did so. He said what was bad was that they missed the spirit of the law which was love. The Pharisees were doing the right things but not out of love but of performance - thinking you are earning your salvation. Jesus assured the theif on the cross that the theology he had was sufficient.

OTOH -Theo=God ology+study study of God who is truth can only bring you closer to the truth. It's confusing theology with doctrineology(study of the doctrines of man) that thwarts us.

[MLCCP]

IMO - Christ told the pharisees that they obeyed the letter of the law - and that it was good they did so. He said what was bad was that they missed the spirit of the law which was love. The Pharisees were doing the right things but not out of love but of performance - thinking you are earning your salvation. Jesus assured the theif on the cross that the theology he had was sufficient.

OTOH -Theo=God ology+study study of God who is truth can only bring you closer to the truth. It's confusing theology with doctrineology(study of the doctrines of man) that thwarts us.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, phonies! For you travel around sea and land to make one convert, and when it has happened, you make him doubly the son of Gehenna that you are!

The theology of the Pharisees stressed the outward appearances and ceremonies of the thousand and one rules they manufactured, instead of the doctrines of Christ. To make a "convert" you have to have a doctrine to convert them to, not just a set of do's and don'ts.

The Pharisees, those that should have known better, were more rejecter's of Christ that the common Jew was.  The theology of Judaism led to a basic doctrine that under no circumstances was a Jew to give help to a Gentile, or even give a Gentile directions if they were asked. Jesus, in the above verse, accused the Pharisees of being missionaries of evil. The evil was that they were not seeking to lead men to God, but rather, to Pharisaism. Their theology was wrong, their practice was wrong and their treatment of anyone but their own group was wrong.

Bad theology leads to bad doctrine which leads to bad practice.

I think the mess the modern church is in is because of people trying to live with contradictions in their theology.

the·ol·o·gy/θiˈɒlədʒi/ Show Spelled [thee-ol-uh-jee] Show IPA
noun, plural the·ol·o·gies. 
1. the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
2. a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.

DOCTRINE:

doc·trine/ˈdɒktrɪn/ Show Spelled [dok-trin] Show IPA
noun
1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine. 
2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine. 
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

[Rich]

Hi to all, do not want to detract from this very enjoyable thread but wished to comment on a sentence from MLCCP, "I guess I even disagree with myself sometimes."  Had to laugh at that as am trapped in that type of mind as well.  The internal arguments are all civil though.  Step away now from thread as has been very interesting.

Peace.

[Lazarus Short]

Rich, I have been there too, maybe we all have.  In my case, the arguments would settle down by evening, but next morning, it was on again - lasted for weeks. :punish:

[VineBranch]

The theology of the Pharisees stressed the outward appearances and ceremonies of the thousand and one rules they manufactured, instead of the doctrines of Christ.

In all fairness, there was no systematic doctrine of Christ yet.  Christ was the leader of a bunch of rag-tag followers who didn't exactly know what was going to happening.  I wouldn't even begin to assume that the Pharisees should teach the doctrines of Christ at this stage.  Christ was a bit lax about the rules which the Jews (not just the Pharisees) had been following for a goodly while.  The Pharisees might not have been right about a lot of things, but I don't think we should judge them because they didn't automatically start preaching the new doctrine of someone they may have perceived as some Johnie come lately who was muscling in on their turf.

The Pharisees, those that should have known better, were more rejecter's of Christ that the common Jew was.  The theology of Judaism led to a basic doctrine that under no circumstances was a Jew to give help to a Gentile, or even give a Gentile directions if they were asked. Jesus, in the above verse, accused the Pharisees of being missionaries of evil. The evil was that they were not seeking to lead men to God, but rather, to Pharisaism. Their theology was wrong, their practice was wrong and their treatment of anyone but their own group was wrong.

IMO their treatment of others was simply the expression of human nature.  They wanted converts to their way of thinking because they got more power and money.  That just makes them human.  I notice that the word evil doesn't appear in Matthew chapter 23 when I search the KJV: nor the Bishops, nor the Geneva, nor the ASV.  I see Christ telling the Pharisees that you got it wrong fellows, and you got it wrong in a big way.  Then He talks about Jerusalem, the city which killed the prophets.  It wasn't the Pharisees which killed the prophets, it was Jerusalem.  I can't say I truly believe Christ wasn't talking about humanity itself. 

You said:  "Bad theology leads to bad doctrine which leads to bad practice. "  Yes.  But, bad ideas lead to bad rules which lead to bad practice.  It doesn't have to be about theology.

You gave us these definitions of doctrine ...

DOCTRINE:

doc·trine/'d?ktr?n/ Show Spelled [dok-trin] Show IPA
noun
1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine. 
2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine. 
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

It doesn't seem to me that bad doctrine comes about merely through bad theology.

Political parties have doctrines, they don't need theology.
Armed Forces have doctrines, they don't' need theology.

The Monroe doctrine didn't come about as a result of theology.

IMHO Christ was showing us what happens when humanity gets hold of something, anything.  That is why humanity's ways ain't that cool.  I think He shows us that ... there is god's way, and their is humanity's way.  Humanity says we need theology.

You said it yourself  ... 'Bad Theology'.  I'm guessing the opposite of that would be 'Good Theology'.  I'm guessing some human gets to decide which is which.  I'm guessing the bad theology is the one with which this human would disagree.  I'm further guessing that good theology is the one with which this human would agree.  Had the Pharisees written the history, I'm guessing they would have said that those other guys had bad theology, but we have the good theology.  I'm just guessing is all.

[ded2daworld]

Yep, VB,
Who decides what is good theology and what is bad theology?
and how do we decide what it leads to? I had "bad theology" while I believed in ET. Now I have "good theology"?
and who decides what doctrines are good or bad, correct or incorrect? If I do all this deciding by myself everyone is wrong
because there is some point of doctrine or theology that we disagree with.
This also means I am wrong because I do not believe now the exact same way I did 2,5,10 years ago and my theology/doctrine position or belief will probably change some in the next 2,5,10 years.

[VineBranch]

Yep, VB,
Who decides what is good theology and what is bad theology?
and how do we decide what it leads to? I had "bad theology" while I believed in ET. Now I have "good theology"?
and who decides what doctrines are good or bad, correct or incorrect? If I do all this deciding by myself everyone is wrong
because there is some point of doctrine or theology that we disagree with.
This also means I am wrong because I do not believe now the exact same way I did 2,5,10 years ago and my theology/doctrine position or belief will probably change some in the next 2,5,10 years.

No kidding.  The only constant in my theology over the years is that I have remained human, and as such thought I was right, irrespective of what I believed.

You mentioned not believing what you did 2 years ago.  I can honestly say I don't believe now what I believed 3 months ago.  God remains the same, I change my mind:  yet one more reason to trust God.  I can tell you what I believe, God can tell you the truth:  not the only difference between God and me, but a big one.

[ded2daworld]

VB said, " I can tell you what I believe, God can tell you the truth"

I really, really like that :banana:

[MLCCP]

All of you are correct to a point. I was speaking generally about good or bad theology. My point is that if your theology (study of the essence and nature) of God and His attributes are wrong  then you  are unable to worship in Spirit and truth.

I've said what I can. If you want to dismiss theology you are entitled to. I will continue to hold that theology is a must, and "feelings" can be very misleading.

[Lazarus Short]

All of you are correct to a point. I was speaking generally about good or bad theology. My point is that if your theology (study of the essence and nature) of God and His attributes are wrong  then you  are unable to worship in Spirit and truth.

I've said what I can. If you want to dismiss theology you are entitled to. I will continue to hold that theology is a must, and "feelings" can be very misleading.

I am impelled to agree with you, MLCCP.  We must have an accurate view of who/what God is, and is not that what (at least in part) what the Scriptures and Jesus are for?  He said that whoever had seen Him had seen the Father, so we see God secondhand thru the Gospels.  That leads to faith and hope in seeing Him someday firsthand. 

On the other hand, the Bible shows us over and over how feelings caused people to turn away from God, like when the Israelites were at the Mountain of God, were terrified by His Voice, and only wanted some distance from that terrible Voice.  Even today, lots of people don't "feel" like following God.  Feelings are too tied up in our carnal flesh.

[ded2daworld]

I don't believe I ever said or even implied trusting in feelings for "the heart is deceitful above all things"
What I tried to say was don't put too much stock in your doctrinal beliefs for as you progress, your beliefs will change and nobody has a corner on the truth. God's word is truth.

[MLCCP]

This is what I mean by knowing correct theology and knowing what pleases the Father:

Hypothetical:
I have 2 sons. I ask the eldest to mow the lawn. This son knows and loves landscaping, he can take the mower apart and put it back together, he can identify and name the 3 types of grass growing at our house. He says, "I will" but then goes off to a friends house to spend the day.
I ask the younger son to mow the lawn.  I've had to show him how to start the mower in the past. He can barely tell the difference between grass and green shag carpet, he hates landscaping activities. He says, "I won't" but later changes his mind and mows the lawn. Which of these 2 sons did what I asked?

In the same way, our father says, if you love, truly love, everything else will be taken care of.

Corrrect theology will show you how to live the Christian life. 

[ded2daworld]

and here I always thought it was the holy spirit of God living inside me that
taught me how to live the Christian life.
Maybe that's why I was never very good at it.
What will get my theology straight? or "good"? or correct?
and how will I know it's correct?

[MLCCP]

Reply to VinceBranch *56

VB--In all fairness, there was no systematic doctrine of Christ yet.

I never said their was. I was referring to Systematic Thelogy as practiced today.

[MLCCP]

All of you are correct to a point. I was speaking generally about good or bad theology. My point is that if your theology (study of the essence and nature) of God and His attributes are wrong  then you  are unable to worship in Spirit and truth.

I've said what I can. If you want to dismiss theology you are entitled to. I will continue to hold that theology is a must, and "feelings" can be very misleading.

I am impelled to agree with you, MLCCP.  We must have an accurate view of who/what God is, and is not that what (at least in part) what the Scriptures and Jesus are for?  He said that whoever had seen Him had seen the Father, so we see God secondhand thru the Gospels.  That leads to faith and hope in seeing Him someday firsthand. 

On the other hand, the Bible shows us over and over how feelings caused people to turn away from God, like when the Israelites were at the Mountain of God, were terrified by His Voice, and only wanted some distance from that terrible Voice.  Even today, lots of people don't "feel" like following God.  Feelings are too tied up in our carnal flesh.

Amen to that. I've been in churches that dismiss theology as "carnal words on a carnal page." And it showed that they didn't even understand Theology 101.

Paul was the master theologian.

[ded2daworld]

Curious.Do you think the presidents kids read books about their Daddy. Do you think they study these books so they can get an idea what their Father is like. Maybe they do. I doubt it. They don't need someone else telling them about someone they've lived with for many years. There is also strong evidence that Peter may have been illiterate. Yes, Paul was a master thwologian but it didn't mean a thing until Jesus knocked him upside the head on the road to Damascus and then taught him personally.

[MLCCP]

Yep, VB,
Who decides what is good theology and what is bad theology?
and how do we decide what it leads to? I had "bad theology" while I believed in ET. Now I have "good theology"?
and who decides what doctrines are good or bad, correct or incorrect? If I do all this deciding by myself everyone is wrong
because there is some point of doctrine or theology that we disagree with.
This also means I am wrong because I do not believe now the exact same way I did 2,5,10 years ago and my theology/doctrine position or belief will probably change some in the next 2,5,10 years.

The bible decides what is good or bad theology and that's why in the place of proof texting, one should study the Analogy of Scripture. As they say, scripture interprets scripture. If you have no theology at all and  dismiss doctrine as a bad word, then you are equivalent to the guy who whoes into the forrest and hugs a tree and is mumbling about feeling the presence of God.

Like I keep saying, the modern day church in many cases, has abandoned theology and consider doctrine a dirty word--and it shows.

[sheila]

Paul butted heads with Judaizers and super-fine apostles in regard to proper theology,also.

  even Peter was admonished for hypocritical theology by him due to eating with the gentile believers

then shrinking back when 'certain' men come.  Holy Ghost told Peter 3 times  quit calling

unclean what God has cleansed. "Peer" pressure made him shrink back in fear.

   LOVE FREE OF HYPOCRISY FOR WHAT GOD HAS CLEANSED

   Now,can a self-righteous Pharisee speak a word aright now and then? yes.  even the devil

  himself may have a little truth in his mouth..mixed with the lie...with murder in his heart
..

  and I have other sheep..not of this flock...those too...I must bring.......

[ded2daworld]

I have a friend with an IQ of about 85-90. He has no concept of the word theology or doctrine.
He does tell everyone he meets that Jesus loves them and he loves them too. He does whatever anyone asks him to.
He is constantly saying thank you Jesus and I love you Lord into the air.
I guess we should all be as ignorant of doctrinal theology because doctrine and theology didn't make him this way.

and my earthly Father is another perfect example. He dropped out of school to fight in WW11. He doesn't know doctrine from a whole in the wall but he loves Jesus and others and he has been a fine example for me to watch him and to be more like Jesus because of his loving, caring, forgiving nature.

[sheila]

my grand-mother was like that,Ded2...simple one..simple faith..a life of love lived .......

   reminds me of Jonadab..and how Father used him as an example to follow......

   there is a 'jonadab' class always in the house of the Lord.