Tentmaker Forum

I'm having a hard time adjusting to UR

I am very theologically minded, and I like my "system" that I have set up around the doctrine of ET. So many things hinge on that one doctrine it is very hard to make the adjustment. I don't really know how to think about hell anymore, or its purpose. Prior to UR my belief was that Hell vindicated God's justice through wretched smells,  fiery torment and burning flesh. Now that I realize Hell is not this, what am I to think about Hell/lake of fire? How will the purification process be carried out, and how long will it take to complete?

What exactly happens to unbelievers when they die?

Also, why do ET people so vehemently defend their position? I've seen generally a stronger reaction from evangelicals to UR than I have from even suggesting that Jesus was merely a man (not God.) That is to say, there's a stronger reaction from Christians against denying ET than there is about denying something far more imperative, like the deity of Christ.

Why do ET'ers hold on so strongly??? It seriously baffles me. Most of us would agree that committing adultery would be worse than believing something wrong in your theology, and yet there's more forgiveness and grace for Christians who commit adultery than there is for people who believe in UR. I'm seen as a worse person if I denied Hell than I would be if I slept around.

Is it because of some fear that they will end up in hell if they don't believe in it? That if they forgo this doctrine their lives will sink into an abyss  of sin and they will finally end up there? I think people are very afraid of Hell, and rightfully so, most people would rather believe a false doctrine   (ET) their whole temporary lives and avoid Hell for eternity, than to believe a true doctrine (UR) and simply be more comfortable about the fate of humanity in this life.

But it's very hard for me to adjust when ET'ers have this kind of reaction, in fact belligerancy and arrogance is a pet peeve of mine and I've never seen so much amply demonstrated since I started to purport the doctrine of UR.

To answer the question about why people won't get it. 

FEAR

How long will it take to complete?  As long as it takes

How will purification be carried out?  Divine fire, His love burning through you, laying you bare before the mighty God, I know many will disagree with me but I don't believe it will take longer than seconds.  How can you stand in His presence?  "Who will not fear you and bless your holy name".

:2c:

IMO Captain..

How long will it take for the process to be complete?

"Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do"

"Lord, I realize now what I have done, forgive me!I submit everything to your feet, have mercy, what will you have me do?"

Once a sinner says the above or something like it,  I believe that's when people of no faith will be reborn.
How long depends on the person.

Captain I also want to say I have seen you on other forums, spreading the good news. I applaud you, no actually  I thank you for striving and standing up for Jesus, and the mission he has accomplished.

It grieves my heart too, when my fellow Christians look at me with disgust and exclude me to the point where they have to spell it out for me that I am not "a sister in Christ". It truly grieves me, my own mother sent me the book "23 minutes in hell" to sway me, to fear me into believing hell is eternal.
But I sense this has happened before, not to us.. but to Jesus and his disciples.
The pharisees, lovers of tradition, did they not exclude Jesus....?

Sometimes when the pain of exclusion is too hard to bear all I can mutter is...Oh Lord, come quickly!

And people wonder , why you begin to seperate from the established church!?

Oh sorry, I will try answer this as well to the best of my knowledge, (which isn't great unfortunately LOL)

What exactly happens to unbelievers when they die?

For me to answer this and say I know for sure what happens would be a lie,  being completely honest I don't know for sure what the exact process is..

However IMO what I have discovered so far is that God will unveil all the ignorance of a person. God will show the truth, to every question, to every lesson. This truth may burn,   For an example lets say I believed ET, and threatened people with it everyday.  When I die, my hell may very well be God showing me the fear, the insecurity, the torment  I've placed in the heart of others, when compared to the awesome eternal love of God, this revelation may hurt, it may burn, it may be so overwhelming, that it's all consuming. However once I understand this lesson, and accept God for who he is, and the lessons he has taught us and submit fully to him I believe that is when I will be reborn.

Here is an example in scripture -

Romans 12:20 - If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head. By God showing and revealing is mercy and love one will burn with the shame of their own lack of such things, and sincerely repent and submit themselves to the Lord.

Yes miszoolander. Amen that's quite how I see it.

Captain Theo, I read your post and this is what came to my mind.  Did you ever see the movie What Dreams May Come?  I remember when the Robin Williams character sets foot in "Hell," stepping over the faces of people mired in muck, and who were still babbling in defense of their sins, not even aware that they were dead.  Damnationists seem like that to me, so mired in their theo-illogical trap, and bringing up the same old, same old, verses and parables to justify it.

This is not simply a theological issue, no, not at all.  ET and ED are spiritual strongholds which must be pulled down.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 23, 2013, 06:59:56 AM
This is not simply a theological issue, no, not at all.  ET and ED are spiritual strongholds which must be pulled down.

That is it...it's a spiritual battle for men's minds.  So very much is as stake.  Lately I've been considering the question, "What does it take to walk in a similar anointing for healing that Jesus walked in?  How could the sensitive Holy Spirit rest upon anything other than our seeing God as loving people unconditionally?  Otherwise, those we would deal with probably wouldn't be healed, not being worthy...and Jesus healed all that came unto Him.  Paul understood that to fully preach the gospel meant the display of miraculous power, including to heal.  It was compassion that moved Jesus to heal.

Rm 1518-19, CLT...
18 For I am not daring to speak any of what Christ does not effect through me for the obedience of the nations, in word and work,
19 in the power of signs and miracles, in the power of God's spirit, so that, from Jerusalem and around unto Illyricum, I have completed the evangel of the Christ.

I think we should pray to be so taught that God can bear witness to our words with His power that the nations would obey the gospel.

 Hello  all   and  especially for CT

You may find this odd , but this very morning  , the Lord blessed with some insight on the very things you are asking and declaring  in your above post
  I for one had no  idea  that again was going to post at Tent , but this message  is for you  and just confirmation   for me
  first  you must start looking at things in Gods perspective  , death has been swallowed up in victory  already  , the CROSS of Jesus Christ is , was and will always be that turning point  for all mankind ,
allow Gods Spirit to tear down the walls  of your perspective on how you see things , when we look though the Spirits eyes we can see far beyond those prision walls
, things that hold us captive to certain thoughts  that just defy  the very work of God though Jesus Christ the ''open show ''   of destroying powers and principalies in high places , that being those things that hold our minds captive  to earth bound thoughts 
when one dies in the mortal body  , the mortal body   ramains for the earth to take it back
    making Gods word so true , but the new and spiritual body  is joined to Christ   the head of all authority  , this happens at death   ,  even if we are still in the mortal body still or released from it
 
GODS plan is flawless   and will not fail  in any sense of the word , to so many  who  have tasted  death and found  that  Jesus is Lord and master of the  universe , making universal  salvation  a  glorious   power beyond the  natural realm of things  ,  a hope beyond  reality  , its a work of God that  is perfect and complete and entire  wanting for nothing   , we  can only hope to taste it while still in our mortal bodies ,  and there are so many witnesses  to  declare this truth , the grave cannot hold Gods Spirit  and all whom is gathered into it , God is a consuming Fire  , God is Love  and God is eternal  :HeartThrob:  hope this helps  , it was not meant to stirr up any strife or contentions

amen,my sister :HeartThrob:  It is the last enemy death subjected unto Him..as He tasted

death for every man...and the quickening spirit, that the last Adam is. It is the Glory of

  Jesus Christ as He sits at the Father's side...that the Father place death under the feet

  of the Son.   Praise,God...!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: redhotmagma on February 22, 2013, 09:15:39 PM
To answer the question about why people won't get it. 

FEAR

How long will it take to complete?  As long as it takes

How will purification be carried out?  Divine fire, His love burning through you, laying you bare before the mighty God, I know many will disagree with me but I don't believe it will take longer than seconds.  How can you stand in His presence?  "Who will not fear you and bless your holy name".

:2c:

Doesn't the idea of a Protestant "purgatory"  dilute what Jesus did on the Cross. John 1:29 says Jesus took away the sin of the world, which I firmly believe. Not some of the sin, but all of it.  Col 2:14 says our sins were nailed to the Cross. 2 Cor 5:19 says we were reconciled to God.

I'm brand new to CU and have disavowed the traditional views of hell for the grand total of about a week. What a relief it is.

I'm not criticizing, but inquiring. IOW, what purification can we go through that the Cross of Christ hasn't already accomplished for us?

Is there any Scripture other than 1 Cor 3:15 that speaks of a person being purified after death?

I'm with you, though. It's been a week or so for me finally accepting the fact that the bible teaches universal salvation for all of God's creation, and in that time I have been called "crazy," "nuts," and a "heretic." I must be on the right path.

Welcome MLCCP.
I think most, if not all of us here have been called those names - even by dear friends and family. Feel free to express yourself and to read other comments and posts. :Peace2:

...well,God's word is a fire..both living water and fire....showing that He would declare

all truth and clear up 'dross' of lies and misunderstandings.  and All your children shall

be taught of God.  Just as Jesus Christ does away with the son of perdition with the breath

  of His coming....Holy spirit baptism..'tongues of fire' purify

   Indeed we shall all be baptized of Him with Holy spirit and fire........it is the jealousy

of His love for mankind..that He does this for all of us....for love is as strong as death[the

last enemy]   Unyeilding as the grave......it burns like a blazing fire[death thrown into lof]

like a mighty flame.

   when He does this for man...man realizes how much he fell short of the LOVE that was

in the Father and His son..that He would Not give us up to death.  The salvation of man

is the GLORY OF GOD...

   The Whole Creation shall have GREAT JOY TO KNOW HIM AS HE TRULY IS.. AND SHALL

REJOICE IN HIM ETERNALLY

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 23, 2013, 07:05:52 PM
Welcome MLCCP.
I think most, if not all of us here have been called those names - even by dear friends and family. Feel free to express yourself and to read other comments and posts. :Peace2:

Thanks. I'm used to being in the minority when it comes to theological discourse. I guess I even disagree with myself sometimes. It's going to take a while to get the hang of this site, but most of the comments I have read seem to be from really sincere, caring people.

   Great thoughts Shelia   :iagree:

QuoteI'm not criticizing, but inquiring. IOW, what purification can we go through that the Cross of Christ hasn't already accomplished for us?

Is there any Scripture other than 1 Cor 3:15 that speaks of a person being purified after death?

Hi MLCCP ,
In other Words , it is the LORDS  judments  and decision to seperate   and burn out every  thing that cannot dwell in the Fire of Gods consuming Love  ,   compare these   to one another 

some  favorite verses  is found in Isaiah and in Hebrews  that     fulfill in Christ ,
you see the burning  about you   and holy seed that remains is Christ  in you the hope of Glory to KNOW GOD  the Father in the most intimate way , His thoughts and How He does this magnificent   work  ,  when peace floods your soul /life and  you know its not you doing any of it , But HIM !  Praise be to God the only  true and living thing that does remain eternal in glory !
  exciting it is to just go there in  these powerful  thoughts !

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?

who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil      He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure. Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off. 


Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel
please remember the  hypocrits  were  trying to keep  prisoners by fear to the covenant of death 

which we KNOW GOD ANNULLED , BY THE WORK OF THE CROSS of Jesus Christ , we are now experincing those   wonderful works  within us  individually  , setting us free  from the captivity in our minds and hearts by the power of God   resting on us by His Holy Spiriit     
hope this helps  a bit  as it has been to me   , and sharing it  only  to glorify Him ! :)

Thank you so much for your most thoughtful comments. I like to focus not so much on all the details, but on the fact that God is Love. That is His Essence and Nature. Holy Writ never says God is vengence or God is Justice. Love is what God IS, and the attribute of justice cannot trump Love.

Also, it seems to me, that if one single person ends up in a cosmic torture chamber, then Satan wins, and we know that is impossible. Everyone I talk to seems to demand justice. I seek mercy.

That's hitting the nail on the head Alex

Everyone wants justice for "others"
and wants mercy for themselves, friends, and most family members. :laughing7:

God is love. It's what he is, it's what he does...always.

Wonderful   thoughts MLCCP
You said  here ,

QuoteThank you so much for your most thoughtful comments. I like to focus not so much on all the details, but on the fact that God is Love. That is His Essence and Nature. Holy Writ never says God is vengence or God is Justice. Love is what God IS, and the attribute of justice cannot trump Love.

Also, it seems to me, that if one single person ends up in a cosmic torture chamber, then Satan wins, and we know that is impossible. Everyone I talk to seems to demand justice. I seek mercy.

  Yes ineed,  Love wins !      :dsunny:
  when we do come to Mount Zion / Sion [ the presence of God ] are judged  , but we know the fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom   :dsunny:  not the end , for the End is to be  made like HIM !  perfect and complet in Christ whom is in GOD
  Afraid of  being judged of  my sins terrified me , by what  was instilled as a small child  after declaring salvation  , its instinctive to go condemn the world  now that you are safe , this is the teaching to make fear   your only hold on those  rebellious  sinners   , see that mindset ???

Well  its hardly  righteous  ,,, correct ?  well little do we realize but as we judge others  so shall we be judged     
Thats a fair and righteous God ! 
I was never so miserable  as    being held in Babylon , captive to all those unrightous thoughts and deeds ! 
afraid   and  tormenting   and real as    fire and rain !
  So you see when  you let go and Let God ,  He does make all things new !  clean pure and perfect for His purpose and kingdom  ,  God bless you on your journey to discover the  true Glory of God in the Light of the ever burning Fire of His presence  :HeartThrob:


    ded , you said bascially the same thing as   the rest of us ..lol :)

Amen to both posts Rose. When your judgement is in the earth the people learn righteousness/justice

We all are to stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Pretty hard for me to look to the next guy over and judge him, while I'm also being judged. We have to remember we are the judged, not the judges, and I for one, don't want to be.

Where's the good news in all of this? The good news is that at the judgment, we have Jesus Christ as our public defender. In fact, we are "all in Christ" whether we know it or not. How so? Because He came  to save sinners and he cannot fail.

People can fuss and fume and deny all they want to, but they can't reject something that has already been accomplished FOR THEM. The Cross is finished, the sins are nailed to the Cross, and "all things will be restored." All things does not  mean some things, as some of my brothers and sisters think. Adam brought death to all. Christ brought life to all. If that weren't the case, then God was mistaken when he looked at His creation and said everything "is very good."

But God isn't mistaken and the blessed truth is, contrary to popular opinion, that our Father in heaven, being omnipotent doesn't create mistakes, then doom them to the cosmic torture chamber, so all the "saved" can rub their hands in a joyful "I told you so," holier than thou attitude.

God never, ultimately, gave up on Israel and look how they treated their Savior. Just like we treat Him. However, He remains faithful even if we don't, and most of the time we don't.

We all struggle through life--from one disaster to the next, with brief interludes of happiness thrown in. That is life and I still love life. I want to go to heaven, but not tonight. Oops, a rabbit trail.

Do I know the details of why things are the way they are? No, and I dare say, neither does anyone else. What I do know from the bottom of my flawed heart is  that the  PERSONAL GOD who  created persons in His image  is not about to kick himself in his own creation, so to speak. He would be doing that if even one of his creatures ended up forever rejecting him and hating him.

Please God, throw me in the brier patch, but don't give me "free will." do decide my destiny.

I'm afraid God created us in His image, and we returned the favor. Let his revealed, written Word guide us and we will all eventually see that all the wars, all the racism, all the hate, all the petty things we do, are as so much dung.

News flash: Believe it or not, it doesn't matter, but every knee will bow (and not like bow or I'll kill you), but bow in praise, worship, and glorifying  God. We are all brothers and sisters, none of us have any reason to brag about anything because everything we have has been a gift from above. You don't believe that? That's fine. You will!!

One more thought. Perish the idea that our so-called decision making can over rule the Sovereign God of the Universe. It can't, and doesn't. God is free to act according to His Essence and Nature, which is Love. Regardless of what tradition tells us, it  comes down to a pardise that was lost, but a pardise that will be restored. And all of God's creatures shouted AMEN!!!

Another thought. I said that if you don't believe in Christ, or Universal Salvation you will. Why? Because!!

1 Corinthians 12:3
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

3 Therefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed, and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, except by the Holy Ghost.

But Holy Writ says:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And every tongue shall confess that Yeshua The Messiah is THE LORD JEHOVAH to the glory of God his Father

But you can't confess unless empowered by the Holy Spirit, but everyone will, therefore all are empowered by the Holy Spirit; all saved, all confess, all knees bow, all glorify God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And every creature which is in Heaven and in Earth, under The Earth, in the Sea and all that is in them, I also heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and dominion to him sitting upon the throne and to the Lamb for the eternity of eternities."

 :iagree:        amen to   MLCCP  and  RedHM   .......preaching to the choir  here  :friendstu:

I figured that, but I just had to get that out. Sometimes the choir needs preaching to, however. I don't know about you, but I never get bored with hearing the good news that "He's got the whole world in His hands."

Actually, you are right. Who needs to hear any of this since all here know exactly what they believe and why. I'll move on.

Quotefigured that, but I just had to get that out. Sometimes the choir needs preaching to, however. I don't know about you, but I never get bored with hearing the good news that "He's got the whole world in His hands."

Actually, you are right. Who needs to hear any of this since all here know exactly what they believe and why. I'll move on.

Oh Its Lovely  to hear MLCCP  :HeartThrob:  ,  I just meant we were all in agreement  , thats all   that   was meant  , honest  :dsunny:

...and there are some that read and wonder and still aren't fully convinced so it's a good thing MLC

Consider Jesus bleeding on the cross, seeing the look of triumph on the faces of the Jewish and Roman authorities gathered before Him, hearing their jeers.  What does He retaliate with?  If their destiny is ceaseless torture for ever, He would with joy be prophesying their horrible neverending doom.  If, on the other hand, He knows the end of the Lord is mercy, then He would ask Father to forgive them for they know not what they do.

My comments were for those that come to the site and are searching. Obviously, if you have 2000 posts under your belt, what I say is old stuff. However, the way I look at it is if you  (3rd person plural) can take something positive out of any of my comments, or disagree, or whatever, fine. If not, don't read it, or read it, ignore it and go on to the next.

Where did that come from? Were you offended somehow? I read back all the comments and saw nothing but praise and agreement with your posts. :sigh:
:dontknow:

  Hi Ded It was my preaching to the choir  comment  :( 
I just meant in agreement with Him and same page  , I should have said Amen to his post 
my poor choice of words has offened  yet another   dear soul ,
  and now I will go back to just reading once again  :footmouth:
I did not mean to tear down , but build up  those whom speak the same truths   
my apologies  to MLCCP  , I offended without even realizing it !  :doh:
God bless you and and   good bye  once again  :HeartThrob:

Aw Rose, we are all misunderstood many times on this forum. It's not your fault! This way of communication is not ideal for so many reasons, that being the biggest. Don't live in fear of offending people sis! Just explain and move on. I'm sure MLCCP gets it now. Your posts are always very edifying and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way! Love you.  :HeartThrob:

Like I said Rose, I read back all the posts and saw nothing offensive.
You always write in love and if offense is taken it doesn't mean you were at fault.
"Love takes no offense when others do it wrong."
Please stay, we've missed your input. :Peace2:

Thanks for all the replies!!! It's been very good to read :)

Having the support and encouragement of a community is very helpful in dealing with this.

   Thank you Lo , for the kind words , love you too  :HeartThrob: 
I am not  hurt or offended   , just not wanting to hurt anyone else

  We know by scriptures that Jesus is the WORD OF GOD /made flesh    and Jesus said this to help us not be offended   in His Word  ,  and am remined  not to  hold any  root of bitterness  that is not  holy , but to forgive as I am forgiven  , for / the Word is the stumbling block to many as it also is  a warning for us    to take heed to not to become disobedient  children  :sigh:


Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

  working hard to use scripture references here  on this 11 yrs old puter and dial-up   
  bear with me ... :doh:
  Mat 11:5   The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is [he], whosoever shall not be offended in me. 

  :HeartThrob:

Again , thanks for the support CT AND Ded   , much appreciated  , I have posted way  more than ever intended already  :eek:    Love in Christ  :girlheart:

Rosered 
Here is a simple solution.
Post 8 more times. If no one is offended.
You could post freely after that.
If some one is offended then you will know that God
has used your posts.
At the realization that God uses your posts, you simply must not stop posting.
You could decide your self.

This is my way of encouraging you keep posting.

Over the last three months my theology has undergone a sort of implosion.  I think ultimately it doesn't come down to thought.  In fact it may be thought which stands in the way of understanding.  I told a friend mine a couple of years of ago, that I had come to the conclusion that explanation often prevents understanding.  I think it is because explanation stems from the personal.  I've been here about five minutes myself, so there is very little I have in the way of help for anyone else.  I barely get it myself.  In the last three months I've changed my view on ET and free-will.  I used to believe the whole shooting match was about free-will.  Now, I'm not sure I care anymore.  Here is what I have seen however.

The people who denigrate me for my new belief in UR, are the same people who call me silly for having rethought my stand on free-will.  They are the same people who need to control what I think about what I see.  They have a vested interest in being right ... not because they get a reward, but because they control at least part of the outcome.  The people I have talked to over the years have all had one thing in common when speaking of hell.  There are those who quip, they are going there and taking over (ego), and there are those who say they will avoid it (ego).  Most non-religious folk tell me they aren't going to hell because, although, they are not perfect, at least they never killed anyone or did anything serious enough to warrant being sent there;  in other words, they think it exists, but they will ultimately be in charge of what constitutes a valid reason for going there (ego).

I have come to understand that there are three things I really detest in this world:  comparison, competition, and aggression; they constitute my unholy trinity.  Most religious folk, in my experience have liked the notion of hell, because mostly, religious folk, in my experience, are usually involved in competition.  If you avoided hell, you did it, and they (the other folk) didn't; I think a lot of those who like hell see it as a vindication that they are/were right.

Once you no longer need to control others, you no longer need to see them in hell to prove you were right.  Once you love them, you don't need to dominate them.  Once you sit on your father's lap and realize that he loves you, you start to understand that you love them, and wouldn't wish hell on anyone.  Then I think we understand that God's love makes there hate irrelevant.  I don't think you can actually make anyone see it.  I have given up trying to explain it.  Either you know your dad (abba), or you don't.  If you do, you will never again need a hell to control or punish anyone.  If you don't, controlling people is your only option if you can't love them.  Red is right, (if I may take liberties with his post) fear craves Hell, love knows God.

And anyone who is not offended because of Me is blessed."

Amen daj.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: dajomaco on February 24, 2013, 07:13:59 PM
Rosered 
Here is a simple solution.
Post 8 more times. If no one is offended.
You could post freely after that.
If some one is offended then you will know that God
has used your posts.
At the realization that God uses your posts, you simply must not stop posting.
You could decide your self.

This is my way of encouraging you keep posting.

Well we are at that  goal/quota  , right now Daj ! ,

QuoteAnd anyone who is not offended because of Me is blessed

:HeartThrob: again amen to that !

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 24, 2013, 05:19:44 PM
Where did that come from? Were you offended somehow? I read back all the comments and saw nothing but praise and agreement with your posts. :sigh:
:dontknow:

Sorry, I was responding to a private comment, but wasn't sure I did it right, so I posted a general comment too. Just learning the site and how to use all the features.

"I'm not sure if it really matters anymore what the theology is."--VineBranch

Well, I do think theology matters as the comments on this site clearly demonstrates. I agree with your comments, over all, though and have gone through the same transition.

I guess I can say that we are free to act according to our essence and nature, but to me at least, Holy Writ is very clear that we can do NOTHING without Christ. Everything we have is a gift from above (John 3:27), and it is God that puts the clean heart in us. (Ezek 36:26-27).

I believe it was Martin Luther who said "we are all born under a death sentence. What's free about that?" He had a point.

VB, I think you are onto the seed of a great and huge idea.  Idea?  No, not in the intellectual sense.  I remember what Confucius said, "I hear and I forget.  I do and I remember.  I teach and I understand."  This is something happening in the spirit of us, and it is a work of God, not of us - not ego, lest any man should boast.  I used to think proper theology was the goal, but now I know that it is only part of the journey.  The goal is Love.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Amen. Did Jesus ever concern himself with someone's theology or was he more concerned with their love for others?

Matthew, Chapter 23 Jesus blisters the  Pharisees because of their bad theology. I think one has to maintain a healthy balance between theology and how one treats/loves others.

It would be difficult to worship God in Spirit and Truth, if you didn't know (theology) what that truth consists of. Then there is the greatest theologian of all time--the Apostle Paul.


In my humble opinion, the Book of Romans is nothing but a theological discourse, and some of the most brilliant writing ever recorded.

I understand what you are saying, and a lot of man's Systematic Theology is nothing more than setting out a subjective, desired end, then bending the scriptures to support your view. That type of theology one would do well to leave on the bookshelf--unread.

Quote from: MLCCP on February 25, 2013, 01:06:43 AM
Matthew, Chapter 23 Jesus blisters the  Pharisees because of their bad theology. I think one has to maintain a healthy balance between theology and how one treats/loves others.

It would be difficult to worship God in Spirit and Truth, if you didn't know (theology) what that truth consists of. Then there is the greatest theologian of all time--the Apostle Paul.


In my humble opinion, the Book of Romans is nothing but a theological discourse, and some of the most brilliant writing ever recorded.

I understand what you are saying, and a lot of man's Systematic Theology is nothing more than setting out a subjective, desired end, then bending the scriptures to support your view. That type of theology one would do well to leave on the bookshelf--unread.

I am the way, the truth and the life. Paul does give us a lot of theology in Romans, but it is so much more than just a theological discourse. The problem with theology is that it is so often of the letter, powered by the mind and not subject to the higher streams of consciousness in the Spirit. Love, compassion, gentleness, patience -these are all elements of the divine nature of God as revealed in Jesus. Good sound doctrine is not so much knowing "about God" as it is "knowing God" and "walking in His ways".

"By this shall all men know you are my disciples, by your love one for another".   :2c:

Quote from: eaglesway on February 25, 2013, 02:20:00 AM

Quote from: MLCCP on February 25, 2013, 01:06:43 AM
Matthew, Chapter 23 Jesus blisters the  Pharisees because of their bad theology. I think one has to maintain a healthy balance between theology and how one treats/loves others.

It would be difficult to worship God in Spirit and Truth, if you didn't know (theology) what that truth consists of. Then there is the greatest theologian of all time--the Apostle Paul.


In my humble opinion, the Book of Romans is nothing but a theological discourse, and some of the most brilliant writing ever recorded.

I understand what you are saying, and a lot of man's Systematic Theology is nothing more than setting out a subjective, desired end, then bending the scriptures to support your view. That type of theology one would do well to leave on the bookshelf--unread.

I am the way, the truth and the life. Paul does give us a lot of theology in Romans, but it is so much more than just a theological discourse. The problem with theology is that it is so often of the letter, powered by the mind and not subject to the higher streams of consciousness in the Spirit. Love, compassion, gentleness, patience -these are all elements of the divine nature of God as revealed in Jesus. Good sound doctrine is not so much knowing "about God" as it is "knowing God" and "walking in His ways".

"By this shall all men know you are my disciples, by your love one for another".   :2c:

Well stated, however I would say that compassion, gentleness, patience are attributes of God, while Love is the Essence and Nature of God. Scripture never says God is compassion, or is gentleness or is patience. It does say God is Love.

Theology/Scripture cannot be understood by the "higher streams of consciousness." According to 1 Cor 2:14 the spiritual things of God can only be discerned by the power of the Holy Spirit. Maybe that's what you meant by that phrase.

We have to remember that God's written Word to man is His revelation to us, so I would assume it is meant to be understood, otherwise it wouldn't be a revelation.

I think we are discussing the same thing, basically. Put a little differently, one has to be careful to not only have "head knowledge," (intellectualism), but also must have "heart knowledge," and with some there is a huge gap between the two.

Quote from: MLCCP on February 25, 2013, 01:06:43 AM
Matthew, Chapter 23 Jesus blisters the  Pharisees because of their bad theology.

I actually get the exact opposite from Matthew 23.  I read it this way ... when Christ tells the people to do what the Pharisees say, but not what they do, I think he is saying that their theology (what they say) is right, but the way they present it (what they do) is wrong:  "For they preach, but do not practice."

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 24, 2013, 11:57:27 PM
Amen. Did Jesus ever concern himself with someone's theology or was he more concerned with their love for others?

I think your rhetorical questions is right ded ...

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
(Joh 15:12)

I went looking for ...
"This is my commandment, that you have the right theology as I have."
but couldn't find it.

Rosered 

I'm afraid I don't know you, but I would be honoured to not be offended by you, if you so chose.

Quote from: VineBranch on February 25, 2013, 05:34:07 AM
Rosered 

I'm afraid I don't know you, but I would be honoured to not be offended by you, if you so chose.

Hello VineBranch ,   Thank you , I   tell you the truth  , I choose not to offend  anyone  :Peace2:
I am simple  in thoughts and   
on the  point of theology it seems loving  in  word  nor tongue  seems to  not  amount to much    as doing the deeds in truth  ,  That can only be done with in  right Spirit  motovating / guiding us 

  the pharrisses  were called  [basically ]  the sons of  the Devil in   other words  ,  Jesus  in John  8  because their lusts /desires were self serving  and not  born of the Spirit of  God , [NO faith ] needed to be born again of the Incorruptible seed  , the original seed was doomed  to fail  , as is in every man born of Adam 

  1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
we know the  works/deeds[ results ] are of the Holy Father and the  way , truth and Life are found in Christ /annointed One 
  so  they did not abode / dwell  in the Truth / Spirit of Truth  , so a  lie  is  words used as a sword / Word and the act or deed results in murder of the innocent  blood /life is in the blood 
they had no faith , they went about to kill ,kill  kill the Spirit of Life  planted in every  mans heart 
as Jesus is the open show/revelation  and main example  we are to learn by

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

  Than I could be all wrong here  :footmouth:

  But does  what they preach become living a  lie when they do not do as they say ?  showing that they do not abide in the truth  making them a faithless   generation  doomed to fail  ?   

Quote"For they preach, but do not practice."

Quote from: rosered on February 25, 2013, 07:19:50 AM
But does  what they preach become living a  lie when they do not do as they say ?  showing that they do not abide in the truth  making them a faithless   generation  doomed to fail  ?

Absolutely.

My response was merely to MLCCP's statement:  "[in] Matthew, Chapter 23 Jesus blisters the  Pharisees because of their bad theology."  My reading was that Christ took umbrage with their lives, not their words (theology). It was just a differing of opinions, that's all.

    Thank you VineBranch
I understand .

   But I found it all  so interesting when looking into it a bit deeper , I can appreciate everyones contributions  to the thread   :thumbsup:

   Many blessings to you and yours

This is what I mean by knowing correct theology and knowing what pleases the Father:

Hypothetical:
I have 2 sons. I ask the eldest to mow the lawn. This son knows and loves landscaping, he can take the mower apart and put it back together, he can identify and name the 3 types of grass growing at our house. He says, "I will" but then goes off to a friends house to spend the day.
I ask the younger son to mow the lawn.  I've had to show him how to start the mower in the past. He can barely tell the difference between grass and green shag carpet, he hates landscaping activities. He says, "I won't" but later changes his mind and mows the lawn. Which of these 2 sons did what I asked?

In the same way, our father says, if you love, truly love, everything else will be taken care of.

The Pharisees had bad theology and misled people. Jesus tells them that they go out and try to convert people, and they do more harm than good. (My paraphrase). On top of that, they seemed to have the attitude of don't do as I do, do as I say.

My point is that if your theology is bad, you can't worship in spirit and truth, since theology is nothing more than defining what that truth is.

One person holds to a theology that God tortures people forever without any chance of escape. Another holds that God does not torture people forever and there is always hope of escape. Both theologies can't be right. The law of contradiction is valid. To me, theology matters.

Quote from: MLCCP on February 25, 2013, 04:26:47 PM
The Pharisees had bad theology and misled people. Jesus tells them that they go out and try to convert people, and they do more harm than good. (My paraphrase). On top of that, they seemed to have the attitude of don't do as I do, do as I say.

My point is that if your theology is bad, you can't worship in spirit and truth, since theology is nothing more than defining what that truth is.

But if Christ told the people to do what the Pharisees said, then He was promoting what their 'theology' said.  I don't think Christ would have been telling people to do something He thought was bad.  Do you?

IMO - Christ told the pharisees that they obeyed the letter of the law - and that it was good they did so. He said what was bad was that they missed the spirit of the law which was love. The Pharisees were doing the right things but not out of love but of performance - thinking you are earning your salvation. Jesus assured the theif on the cross that the theology he had was sufficient.

OTOH -Theo=God ology+study study of God who is truth can only bring you closer to the truth. It's confusing theology with doctrineology(study of the doctrines of man) that thwarts us.

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 25, 2013, 05:23:05 PM
IMO - Christ told the pharisees that they obeyed the letter of the law - and that it was good they did so. He said what was bad was that they missed the spirit of the law which was love. The Pharisees were doing the right things but not out of love but of performance - thinking you are earning your salvation. Jesus assured the theif on the cross that the theology he had was sufficient.

OTOH -Theo=God ology+study study of God who is truth can only bring you closer to the truth. It's confusing theology with doctrineology(study of the doctrines of man) that thwarts us.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, phonies! For you travel around sea and land to make one convert, and when it has happened, you make him doubly the son of Gehenna that you are!

The theology of the Pharisees stressed the outward appearances and ceremonies of the thousand and one rules they manufactured, instead of the doctrines of Christ. To make a "convert" you have to have a doctrine to convert them to, not just a set of do's and don'ts.

The Pharisees, those that should have known better, were more rejecter's of Christ that the common Jew was.  The theology of Judaism led to a basic doctrine that under no circumstances was a Jew to give help to a Gentile, or even give a Gentile directions if they were asked. Jesus, in the above verse, accused the Pharisees of being missionaries of evil. The evil was that they were not seeking to lead men to God, but rather, to Pharisaism. Their theology was wrong, their practice was wrong and their treatment of anyone but their own group was wrong.

Bad theology leads to bad doctrine which leads to bad practice.

I think the mess the modern church is in is because of people trying to live with contradictions in their theology.

the·ol·o·gy/θiˈɒlədʒi/ Show Spelled [thee-ol-uh-jee] Show IPA
noun, plural the·ol·o·gies. 
1. the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
2. a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.

DOCTRINE:

doc·trine/ˈdɒktrɪn/ Show Spelled [dok-trin] Show IPA
noun
1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine. 
2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine. 
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Hi to all, do not want to detract from this very enjoyable thread but wished to comment on a sentence from MLCCP, "I guess I even disagree with myself sometimes."  Had to laugh at that as am trapped in that type of mind as well.  The internal arguments are all civil though.  Step away now from thread as has been very interesting.

Peace.

Rich, I have been there too, maybe we all have.  In my case, the arguments would settle down by evening, but next morning, it was on again - lasted for weeks. :punish:

Quote from: MLCCP on February 25, 2013, 05:53:08 PM
The theology of the Pharisees stressed the outward appearances and ceremonies of the thousand and one rules they manufactured, instead of the doctrines of Christ.

In all fairness, there was no systematic doctrine of Christ yet.  Christ was the leader of a bunch of rag-tag followers who didn't exactly know what was going to happening.  I wouldn't even begin to assume that the Pharisees should teach the doctrines of Christ at this stage.  Christ was a bit lax about the rules which the Jews (not just the Pharisees) had been following for a goodly while.  The Pharisees might not have been right about a lot of things, but I don't think we should judge them because they didn't automatically start preaching the new doctrine of someone they may have perceived as some Johnie come lately who was muscling in on their turf.

Quote from: MLCCP on February 25, 2013, 05:53:08 PM
The Pharisees, those that should have known better, were more rejecter's of Christ that the common Jew was.  The theology of Judaism led to a basic doctrine that under no circumstances was a Jew to give help to a Gentile, or even give a Gentile directions if they were asked. Jesus, in the above verse, accused the Pharisees of being missionaries of evil. The evil was that they were not seeking to lead men to God, but rather, to Pharisaism. Their theology was wrong, their practice was wrong and their treatment of anyone but their own group was wrong.

IMO their treatment of others was simply the expression of human nature.  They wanted converts to their way of thinking because they got more power and money.  That just makes them human.  I notice that the word evil doesn't appear in Matthew chapter 23 when I search the KJV: nor the Bishops, nor the Geneva, nor the ASV.  I see Christ telling the Pharisees that you got it wrong fellows, and you got it wrong in a big way.  Then He talks about Jerusalem, the city which killed the prophets.  It wasn't the Pharisees which killed the prophets, it was Jerusalem.  I can't say I truly believe Christ wasn't talking about humanity itself. 

You said:  "Bad theology leads to bad doctrine which leads to bad practice. "  Yes.  But, bad ideas lead to bad rules which lead to bad practice.  It doesn't have to be about theology.

You gave us these definitions of doctrine ...

DOCTRINE:

doc·trine/'d?ktr?n/ Show Spelled [dok-trin] Show IPA
noun
1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine. 
2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine. 
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

It doesn't seem to me that bad doctrine comes about merely through bad theology.

Political parties have doctrines, they don't need theology.
Armed Forces have doctrines, they don't' need theology.

The Monroe doctrine didn't come about as a result of theology.

IMHO Christ was showing us what happens when humanity gets hold of something, anything.  That is why humanity's ways ain't that cool.  I think He shows us that ... there is god's way, and their is humanity's way.  Humanity says we need theology.

You said it yourself  ... 'Bad Theology'.  I'm guessing the opposite of that would be 'Good Theology'.  I'm guessing some human gets to decide which is which.  I'm guessing the bad theology is the one with which this human would disagree.  I'm further guessing that good theology is the one with which this human would agree.  Had the Pharisees written the history, I'm guessing they would have said that those other guys had bad theology, but we have the good theology.  I'm just guessing is all.

Yep, VB,
Who decides what is good theology and what is bad theology?
and how do we decide what it leads to? I had "bad theology" while I believed in ET. Now I have "good theology"?
and who decides what doctrines are good or bad, correct or incorrect? If I do all this deciding by myself everyone is wrong
because there is some point of doctrine or theology that we disagree with.
This also means I am wrong because I do not believe now the exact same way I did 2,5,10 years ago and my theology/doctrine position or belief will probably change some in the next 2,5,10 years.

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 26, 2013, 02:43:07 PM
Yep, VB,
Who decides what is good theology and what is bad theology?
and how do we decide what it leads to? I had "bad theology" while I believed in ET. Now I have "good theology"?
and who decides what doctrines are good or bad, correct or incorrect? If I do all this deciding by myself everyone is wrong
because there is some point of doctrine or theology that we disagree with.
This also means I am wrong because I do not believe now the exact same way I did 2,5,10 years ago and my theology/doctrine position or belief will probably change some in the next 2,5,10 years.

No kidding.  The only constant in my theology over the years is that I have remained human, and as such thought I was right, irrespective of what I believed.

You mentioned not believing what you did 2 years ago.  I can honestly say I don't believe now what I believed 3 months ago.  God remains the same, I change my mind:  yet one more reason to trust God.  I can tell you what I believe, God can tell you the truth:  not the only difference between God and me, but a big one.

VB said, " I can tell you what I believe, God can tell you the truth"

I really, really like that :banana:

All of you are correct to a point. I was speaking generally about good or bad theology. My point is that if your theology (study of the essence and nature) of God and His attributes are wrong  then you  are unable to worship in Spirit and truth.

I've said what I can. If you want to dismiss theology you are entitled to. I will continue to hold that theology is a must, and "feelings" can be very misleading.

Quote from: MLCCP on February 26, 2013, 05:23:39 PM
All of you are correct to a point. I was speaking generally about good or bad theology. My point is that if your theology (study of the essence and nature) of God and His attributes are wrong  then you  are unable to worship in Spirit and truth.

I've said what I can. If you want to dismiss theology you are entitled to. I will continue to hold that theology is a must, and "feelings" can be very misleading.

I am impelled to agree with you, MLCCP.  We must have an accurate view of who/what God is, and is not that what (at least in part) what the Scriptures and Jesus are for?  He said that whoever had seen Him had seen the Father, so we see God secondhand thru the Gospels.  That leads to faith and hope in seeing Him someday firsthand. 

On the other hand, the Bible shows us over and over how feelings caused people to turn away from God, like when the Israelites were at the Mountain of God, were terrified by His Voice, and only wanted some distance from that terrible Voice.  Even today, lots of people don't "feel" like following God.  Feelings are too tied up in our carnal flesh.

I don't believe I ever said or even implied trusting in feelings for "the heart is deceitful above all things"
What I tried to say was don't put too much stock in your doctrinal beliefs for as you progress, your beliefs will change and nobody has a corner on the truth. God's word is truth.

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 25, 2013, 03:18:29 PM
This is what I mean by knowing correct theology and knowing what pleases the Father:

Hypothetical:
I have 2 sons. I ask the eldest to mow the lawn. This son knows and loves landscaping, he can take the mower apart and put it back together, he can identify and name the 3 types of grass growing at our house. He says, "I will" but then goes off to a friends house to spend the day.
I ask the younger son to mow the lawn.  I've had to show him how to start the mower in the past. He can barely tell the difference between grass and green shag carpet, he hates landscaping activities. He says, "I won't" but later changes his mind and mows the lawn. Which of these 2 sons did what I asked?

In the same way, our father says, if you love, truly love, everything else will be taken care of.

Corrrect theology will show you how to live the Christian life. 

and here I always thought it was the holy spirit of God living inside me that
taught me how to live the Christian life.
Maybe that's why I was never very good at it.
What will get my theology straight? or "good"? or correct?
and how will I know it's correct?

Reply to VinceBranch *56

VB--In all fairness, there was no systematic doctrine of Christ yet.

I never said their was. I was referring to Systematic Thelogy as practiced today.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 26, 2013, 06:22:29 PM

Quote from: MLCCP on February 26, 2013, 05:23:39 PM
All of you are correct to a point. I was speaking generally about good or bad theology. My point is that if your theology (study of the essence and nature) of God and His attributes are wrong  then you  are unable to worship in Spirit and truth.

I've said what I can. If you want to dismiss theology you are entitled to. I will continue to hold that theology is a must, and "feelings" can be very misleading.

I am impelled to agree with you, MLCCP.  We must have an accurate view of who/what God is, and is not that what (at least in part) what the Scriptures and Jesus are for?  He said that whoever had seen Him had seen the Father, so we see God secondhand thru the Gospels.  That leads to faith and hope in seeing Him someday firsthand. 

On the other hand, the Bible shows us over and over how feelings caused people to turn away from God, like when the Israelites were at the Mountain of God, were terrified by His Voice, and only wanted some distance from that terrible Voice.  Even today, lots of people don't "feel" like following God.  Feelings are too tied up in our carnal flesh.

Amen to that. I've been in churches that dismiss theology as "carnal words on a carnal page." And it showed that they didn't even understand Theology 101.

Paul was the master theologian.

Curious.Do you think the presidents kids read books about their Daddy. Do you think they study these books so they can get an idea what their Father is like. Maybe they do. I doubt it. They don't need someone else telling them about someone they've lived with for many years. There is also strong evidence that Peter may have been illiterate. Yes, Paul was a master thwologian but it didn't mean a thing until Jesus knocked him upside the head on the road to Damascus and then taught him personally.

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 26, 2013, 02:43:07 PM
Yep, VB,
Who decides what is good theology and what is bad theology?
and how do we decide what it leads to? I had "bad theology" while I believed in ET. Now I have "good theology"?
and who decides what doctrines are good or bad, correct or incorrect? If I do all this deciding by myself everyone is wrong
because there is some point of doctrine or theology that we disagree with.
This also means I am wrong because I do not believe now the exact same way I did 2,5,10 years ago and my theology/doctrine position or belief will probably change some in the next 2,5,10 years.

The bible decides what is good or bad theology and that's why in the place of proof texting, one should study the Analogy of Scripture. As they say, scripture interprets scripture. If you have no theology at all and  dismiss doctrine as a bad word, then you are equivalent to the guy who whoes into the forrest and hugs a tree and is mumbling about feeling the presence of God.

Like I keep saying, the modern day church in many cases, has abandoned theology and consider doctrine a dirty word--and it shows.

Paul butted heads with Judaizers and super-fine apostles in regard to proper theology,also.

  even Peter was admonished for hypocritical theology by him due to eating with the gentile believers

then shrinking back when 'certain' men come.  Holy Ghost told Peter 3 times  quit calling

unclean what God has cleansed. "Peer" pressure made him shrink back in fear.

   LOVE FREE OF HYPOCRISY FOR WHAT GOD HAS CLEANSED

   Now,can a self-righteous Pharisee speak a word aright now and then? yes.  even the devil

  himself may have a little truth in his mouth..mixed with the lie...with murder in his heart
..

  and I have other sheep..not of this flock...those too...I must bring.......

I have a friend with an IQ of about 85-90. He has no concept of the word theology or doctrine.
He does tell everyone he meets that Jesus loves them and he loves them too. He does whatever anyone asks him to.
He is constantly saying thank you Jesus and I love you Lord into the air.
I guess we should all be as ignorant of doctrinal theology because doctrine and theology didn't make him this way.

and my earthly Father is another perfect example. He dropped out of school to fight in WW11. He doesn't know doctrine from a whole in the wall but he loves Jesus and others and he has been a fine example for me to watch him and to be more like Jesus because of his loving, caring, forgiving nature.

my grand-mother was like that,Ded2...simple one..simple faith..a life of love lived .......

   reminds me of Jonadab..and how Father used him as an example to follow......

   there is a 'jonadab' class always in the house of the Lord.

Hi, could a continuum exist here, without being all or nothing? 

I think, which means my opinion only, is that sometimes a question of what supercedes what in influence in each of us as an individual is important for that individual to discern.  Over emphasis on Theology, time has shown, seems to have  tendency to permit people to become defensive and offensive, as this has become higher value for that individual.  Also, seems that being caught up in ones view of a interpretation is easier to follow then what we are called to do in general.  Anyone can do this.  At same time, if one has means to, spending time with scripture is very important as is trying to understand at some level.  But, think that sliding more on scale back to what Ded says is where world was changed, changed fast, and changed hard.  At same time, think theology certainly played a part.
Peace to all and will step back to being spectator as enjoying the discussion.  Thanks.

Quote from: Rich on February 26, 2013, 08:59:15 PM
Hi, could a continuum exist here, without being all or nothing? 

I think, which means my opinion only, is that sometimes a question of what supercedes what in influence in each of us as an individual is important for that individual to discern.  Over emphasis on Theology, time has shown, seems to have  tendency to permit people to become defensive and offensive, as this has become higher value for that individual.  Also, seems that being caught up in ones view of a interpretation is easier to follow then what we are called to do in general.  Anyone can do this.  At same time, if one has means to, spending time with scripture is very important as is trying to understand at some level.  But, think that sliding more on scale back to what Ded says is where world was changed, changed fast, and changed hard.  At same time, think theology certainly played a part.
Peace to all and will step back to being spectator as enjoying the discussion.  Thanks.

I don't really disagree with what you said.  There should  be no conflict between the study of scripture and Theology. Not studying theology would be like an Engineer not sudying mathematics.

The definition of theology you submitted was:

the·ol·o·gy/?i'?l?d?i/ Show Spelled [thee-ol-uh-jee] Show IPA
noun, plural the·ol·o·gies. 
1. the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
2. a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.

When you say that someone has bad theology do you mean they have inferior methodology by which to understand or study?

Quote from: MLCCP on February 26, 2013, 08:11:30 PM
Reply to VinceBranch *56

VB--In all fairness, there was no systematic doctrine of Christ yet.

I never said their was. I was referring to Systematic Thelogy as practiced today.

You said:  "The theology of the Pharisees stressed the outward appearances and ceremonies of the thousand and one rules they manufactured, instead of the doctrines of Christ." 

Quote from: MLCCP on February 26, 2013, 08:28:14 PM
The bible decides what is good or bad theology and that's why in the place of proof texting, one should study the Analogy of Scripture. As they say, scripture interprets scripture. If you have no theology at all and  dismiss doctrine as a bad word, then you are equivalent to the guy who whoes into the forrest and hugs a tree and is mumbling about feeling the presence of God.

Like I keep saying, the modern day church in many cases, has abandoned theology and consider doctrine a dirty word--and it shows.

Forgive this comment I beg you if it's rude, or insensitive, but did you just put yourself up as the authority on proper theology?

Hi,

First, know said previously would bow out but wish to clarify last post due to feedback recieved.  With continuum, I go more towards what I perceive Sheila and Ded as saying.  Think both as we seperate them are important, but think the weight leans heavily towards their view.  Do not wish to offend or shut off conversation but to continue it, so say, this is one fallible persons opinion.

Who here can say on the majority of things, what is correct and incorrect? 

To the conversation, as an example, this Tuesday, my beloved mother, Orea Letitia, will have been gone for one year.  In 92, she fell from horse and suffered brain damage.  This had much adverse impact.  Sure myself and many others could quote things and run circles around her and make her "fool" if we wished.  Her simple and literally, unbending faith, in our God, brings tears to my eyes this evening, still.  I am humbled by what saw and thank her and God for this experience.  She did not argue theology as so precious, she just did and she just loved and she just had faith. 

In modern times, the story of the Hmar people shows more evidence of where on continuum of hierachy of focus should be.  With ego at forefront, if the great believer approached them not only would he have been eaten, but these people today, who are considered widely successful and great believers, would not be.  This was demonstration of God's power I believe.  A hero of mine, John Wesley, a great theologian in my opinion, was brought much closer to God due to the dramatic demonstration of faith (versus cognitive and keyboard illustrated) by what the intellectuals would call a simple people.  The early gentile Christians, the faith was not spread by theology and doctrine at cognitive level alone, but by being prostrate or on knees, and by their loving acts.

This all to me, is what history, the written Word, and life, has shown. 

Too much emphasis the other way as perceive discussion in some parts is being driven, has been shown time and time again what it can wreak.  What is most substantive gets subordinated. 

Lastly, intuition and feelings have a place, I believe.  We are given this ability by Him.  What has been quoted previously is serious business for sure, but not all or nothing thing?  Healthy, healthy warning for sure regarding feelings, but does not say to throw them away. 

In ways will not express, this thread has been very good to me so thankful for this.

Take good care please.

Peace.

Actually, I think MC's comment was a pretty reasonable statement about theology and doctrine in general. It is true that the church today is poor in the word of truth- otherwise we would not be in the degree of minority we are, who uphold the doctrine of the the restoration of all things.

Quote from: VineBranch on February 27, 2013, 05:43:50 AM
The definition of theology you submitted was:

the·ol·o·gy/?i'?l?d?i/ Show Spelled [thee-ol-uh-jee] Show IPA
noun, plural the·ol·o·gies. 
1. the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
2. a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.

When you say that someone has bad theology do you mean they have inferior methodology by which to understand or study?

It certainly could  be inferior methodology. For example, one could be  like Origen,  who  maintained that every verse had four meanings to it.  Bad theology, as an example, would be a theology that leads one to believe that only members of one particular denomination will be saved.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what we "believe" the Scriptures say. What matters is what was the meaning the writer was trying to get across. In most cases that means you take the verse to mean what any ordinary person reading it would understand it to mean.


Article VII.
We affirm that the meaning expressed in each biblical text is single, definite and fixed.
We deny that the recognition of this single meaning eliminates the variety of its application.
The Affirmation here is directed at those who claim a "double" or "deeper" meaning to Scripture than that expressed by the authors. It stresses the unity and fixity of meaning as opposed to those who find multiple and pliable meanings. What a passage means is fixed by the author and is not subject to change by readers. This does not imply that further revelation on the subject cannot help one come to a fuller understanding, but simply that the meaning given in a text is not changed because additional truth is revealed subsequently.
Meaning is also definite in that there are defined limits by virtue of the author's expressed meaning in the given linguistic form and cultural context. Meaning is determined by an author; it is discovered by the readers.The Denial adds the clarification that simply because Scripture has one meaning does not imply that its messages cannot be applied to a variety of individuals or situations. While the interpretation is one, the applications can be many.

I think the above is a fairly good statement on a correct Hermeneutics. If one were to maintain turning most of scripture into an allegory, then you can make the scripture mean anything you want it to. People do that with the bible all the time,  but rarely with any other type of writing, like in Shakespeare, for example.

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 26, 2013, 08:23:58 PM
There is also strong evidence that Peter may have been illiterate. Yes, Paul was a master thwologian but it didn't mean a thing until Jesus knocked him upside the head on the road to Damascus and then taught him personally.

We have lots of evidence that Peter was illiterate ded.  In fact, it wasn't at all unusual for the men in that society to know how to read, but not how to write.  The Gospel of Mark is actually the Gospel of Peter; Mark was Peter's secretary who took down the words.  When I was a kid, I was writing long before I could read.  We see now that the acts of reading, and writing are two separate things.  I think in this society, because they are taught at the same time, we tend to see them as related:  apparently they aren't.

I loved your reflection on Paul.  So, you gotta ask yourself:  did Paul see the light because his theology changed, or did he see the light because his relationship with God changed?

Quote from: eaglesway on February 27, 2013, 07:17:25 AM
Actually, I think MC's comment was a pretty reasonable statement about theology and doctrine in general. It is true that the church today is poor in the word of truth- otherwise we would not be in the degree of minority we are, who uphold the doctrine of the the restoration of all things.

I'm not disagreeing with that.  What I noticed was that we are told what to look at and how to look at it:  "... in the place of proof texting, one should study the Analogy of Scripture."  I am being told which specific form of theology I 'should' use.  When I studied theology there were many brands of exegesis open to students, I thought they were merely different.  Now I find out there is actually only one I SHOULD use.  I was just curious as to who became the authority on which avenue of theology became the 'right' one for all of us? That's why I asked him if he was the authority.

Exactly VB. :thumbsup:

Quote from: Rich on February 27, 2013, 07:15:43 AM
Hi,

First, know said previously would bow out but wish to clarify last post due to feedback recieved.  With continuum, I go more towards what I perceive Sheila and Ded as saying.  Think both as we seperate them are important, but think the weight leans heavily towards their view.  Do not wish to offend or shut off conversation but to continue it, so say, this is one fallible persons opinion.

Who here can say on the majority of things, what is correct and incorrect? 

To the conversation, as an example, this Tuesday, my beloved mother, Orea Letitia, will have been gone for one year.  In 92, she fell from horse and suffered brain damage.  This had much adverse impact.  Sure myself and many others could quote things and run circles around her and make her "fool" if we wished.  Her simple and literally, unbending faith, in our God, brings tears to my eyes this evening, still.  I am humbled by what saw and thank her and God for this experience.  She did not argue theology as so precious, she just did and she just loved and she just had faith. 

In modern times, the story of the Hmar people shows more evidence of where on continuum of hierachy of focus should be.  With ego at forefront, if the great believer approached them not only would he have been eaten, but these people today, who are considered widely successful and great believers, would not be.  This was demonstration of God's power I believe.  A hero of mine, John Wesley, a great theologian in my opinion, was brought much closer to God due to the dramatic demonstration of faith (versus cognitive and keyboard illustrated) by what the intellectuals would call a simple people.  The early gentile Christians, the faith was not spread by theology and doctrine at cognitive level alone, but by being prostrate or on knees, and by their loving acts.

This all to me, is what history, the written Word, and life, has shown. 

Too much emphasis the other way as perceive discussion in some parts is being driven, has been shown time and time again what it can wreak.  What is most substantive gets subordinated. 

Lastly, intuition and feelings have a place, I believe.  We are given this ability by Him.  What has been quoted previously is serious business for sure, but not all or nothing thing?  Healthy, healthy warning for sure regarding feelings, but does not say to throw them away. 

In ways will not express, this thread has been very good to me so thankful for this.

Take good care please.

Peace.

Rich.

Thank you for touching my heart with your story.

I have come to believe that when it's all said and done, when you ask people what convinced them there was something to the story of God, the answer will be more along the lines of...

The old lady down the street would got to the soup kitchen every day and serve.  When I was shovelling her walk I would sometimes look into the window and see she was praying.  She loved God and showed people in so many ways she loved them.  Her smile, her warmth, her generosity showed me there was a better way, a way that made my heart not hurt all the time.  I asked her what she knew, and then I asked her to pray for me because my heart yearned for more.  I don't think I ever knew her 'theology'.  I don't think it mattered.  I saw her love.

But then, I'm just guessin'.

Nice, VB! :iagree:

After reading you post just now, it entered my mind that the Shakers did NOT sing this:

"...and they'll know we're God's children by our theology, by our theology,
yes, they'll know we're God's children by our theology."

[I hate to say it, but...] The Beatles were right when they sang, "All you need is Love!"

Quote from: VineBranch on February 27, 2013, 04:52:37 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on February 27, 2013, 07:17:25 AM
Actually, I think MC's comment was a pretty reasonable statement about theology and doctrine in general. It is true that the church today is poor in the word of truth- otherwise we would not be in the degree of minority we are, who uphold the doctrine of the the restoration of all things.

I'm not disagreeing with that.  What I noticed was that we are told what to look at and how to look at it:  "... in the place of proof texting, one should study the Analogy of Scripture."  I am being told which specific form of theology I 'should' use.  When I studied theology there were many brands of exegesis open to students, I thought they were merely different.  Now I find out there is actually only one I SHOULD use.  I was just curious as to who became the authority on which avenue of theology became the 'right' one for all of us? That's why I asked him if he was the authority.

There are many forms of theology open to students, but only one that is true. How do you know the right one? The Holy Spirit is the authority and the enabler. He will lead all, sooner or later, in all truth.

Which theology should you use? I would answer the theology that was written in the canon of Holy Writ.

I'm thinking of the demoniac of the Gaddarenes. When the people saw him (post Jesus contact) he was clothed and in his right mind. Actually, thinking back, I can't remember anytime Jesus cured someone and told them to learn theology and/or get their doctrine straight. It was either go tell others, do not tell anyone, or go and sin no more(Not sinning is loving - loving is not sinning)
The only people he told to learn the scriptures to were the pharisees - those that already knew the scriptures. They were told to learn what it means because they knew theology, they knew doctrine, they knew scripture, but they didn't know love.

VB and Ded.........your comments warm my heart and soothe my eyes. Thanks with Love. :HeartThrob:

All very eloquently put and very down to earth! It kinda reminds me of what Jesus said how we should become as little children.. I'm glad we don't have to go around spouting theology and doctrinal beliefs in our relationships with others! What a bore one could become! That said, I have an absolute and ecstatic passion for truth!  :laughing7: ...and study. (Of God's Word, of course.)

These days after getting tired of reading in the new testament how something was prophesied in the old, i've begun to work my way through those prophecies of salvation and Jesus, starting with genesis 3:15(rev 21:4b and others), then on into Abraham and currently moving into Isaac's life (I'm following more or less a list in one of my bibles in its bible helps, of prophecies of and fulfillments of). I knew by reading Paul's letters that "the seed" all the promises and all nations and families of the earth would be "blessed in", is Jesus, but I like knowing where these promises were made.. First when Abraham was called out.. then again at other important events of his life and sojourn.. I like to study slow so I can absorb.. besides, I'm getting a bit more forgetful :eek: Is this theology or doctrine?  :dontknow: (Won't we all more or less be students/teachers during the millenium/2nd advent? and teachers after the 2nd resurrection?)

I guess "doctrine" to me is something like - is Jesus returning on the clouds and every eye will see Him or does He come secretly in the 1st or 2nd watch? (of the night) Or, is trinity Father and Son are one or Father and Son are two, or are they both one and two.. Yes I love all these topics. And yes I feel I have the right perception of them! :pointlaugh:

But theology, to me, would be our overall view.. like saved by grace or by measuring up..  and yes I love that topic too, though I suppose it too is doctrine? :Chinscratch:

"theology" in my old fashioned merriam-webster print dictionary says "the study of religion and religious ideas and beliefs; a branch of theology treating of God and His relation to the world; a theory or system of theology

"doctrine" - "something that is taught, dogma, tenet"

"dogma" - doctrine or body of doctrines formally proclaimed by a church

So if someone asks me what is my doctrine(s) - I perhaps don't have one. But if I'm asked what is my theology, they are asking what is my system of belief....?

Maybe I don't have that either! or of course I do but it's not what I study..? Of course someone else's idea of theology may differ from mine.. I can have a system of belief, but is it what one studies?

"Man shall not live by bread alone.." :smile:

Marie said, "I knew by reading Paul's letters that "the seed" all the promises and all nations and families of the earth would be "blessed in", is Jesus, "

If one is only eligible for salvation and be reconciled to God IN THIS LIFE, I wonder how ET figures ALL the nations were blessed in Christ? :doh:

hmmmm :Chinscratch: ... exactLy, Ded! :dsunny: how in the world is it so missed? UR, that is. :smile:

I heard one preacher say because America is the only Christian nation, that ALL nations have been blessed because of the USA.
Very patriotic but ignores reality. :laugh:

   Rich that  was awesome !!!  just awesome  , thanks for sharing   this about you mom ,
mine just passed over  in Dec  and  you remined me of what she said     to me one day when they were having  a  church meeting   at the nursing home and it was  denominationlly based

She said They believe in Jesus , and thats good enough for me !  :HeartThrob:
Iam also remined of Jesus saying to the  disciples when they were  frustrated  that some other follower of Christ    was casting out devils in Jesus name  , they   were wanting Jesus to forbid him to do that , Jesus corrected them   saying  .. well here it is

Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.

  I really do not think  act or work done in LOVE   can be fruitless ,  no matter what you believe

  Thanks   to all contributers      !!  good thread  :girlheart:

Quote from: VineBranch on February 27, 2013, 06:09:39 AM

Quote from: MLCCP on February 26, 2013, 08:28:14 PM
The bible decides what is good or bad theology and that's why in the place of proof texting, one should study the Analogy of Scripture. As they say, scripture interprets scripture. If you have no theology at all and  dismiss doctrine as a bad word, then you are equivalent to the guy who whoes into the forrest and hugs a tree and is mumbling about feeling the presence of God.

Like I keep saying, the modern day church in many cases, has abandoned theology and consider doctrine a dirty word--and it shows.

Forgive this comment I beg you if it's rude, or insensitive, but did you just put yourself up as the authority on proper theology?

It is these type of comments that keep me away from these internet forums. I didn't set myself up as an authority on anything.  I'm searching and inquiring like everyone else. I've had enough of this.

Quote from: MLCCP on February 23, 2013, 06:52:00 PM
It's been a week or so for me finally accepting the fact that the bible teaches universal salvation for all of God's creation, and in that time I have been called "crazy," "nuts," and a "heretic." I must be on the right path.

Wish you'd hang around. 

Hi,
First, thanks for sentiments expressed rose.  Sorry about your loss.  Think regardless of our beliefs on perhaps being happy for them, the missing part...  Take good care of yourself.

MLCCP, am learning the art of forum.  It is different.  I am guest here and push a little for sure as am going to step away as have much to contemplate.  You seem to have much happen to you in brief minute as you have shared.  Think this forum is good for you.  Many of us still have vestiges of THIS IS THE WAY IT IS that get in way.  This is most open site have seen.  Think how we say things on forum is important and heck, this is huge challenge for me, so we keep trying. 

Since this is last diatribe will continue.  MLCCP, could you imagine if God said, THIS IS THE BOOK I HAVE WRITTEN....?  From what you have observed from us humans, history would have made the inquisitions look like a party.  We would be the Christian Taliban, world wide and continuos.  God perhaps knows something about us.  This is Jewish background and internal poking and questioning is a most healthy thing I think.  I have scoured this site, and just do not see malice as intent.  Will miss this place for sure and hope you reconsider. 
You start off yourself qualifying and then move to saying not whether you agree or not but what is correct or incorrect.  Not so hip to what Aramaic Bible is and would have loved discussion on whether what think it is.  Just can not see Paul discussing to Greek world in language other than Greek, let alone all four Gospels written in that language, etc..  By leaving brother, you miss answering this and participating in great give and take on many threads.  A secular new age type guy said, ego=edging God out.  Swallow pride and get back in here with these folks because I sense you have much to learn and have very much to offer.
Thanks to all, take great care, and best of luck MLCCP.

Quote from: VineBranch on February 27, 2013, 04:38:08 PM

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 26, 2013, 08:23:58 PM
There is also strong evidence that Peter may have been illiterate. Yes, Paul was a master thwologian but it didn't mean a thing until Jesus knocked him upside the head on the road to Damascus and then taught him personally.

We have lots of evidence that Peter was illiterate ded.  In fact, it wasn't at all unusual for the men in that society to know how to read, but not how to write.  The Gospel of Mark is actually the Gospel of Peter; Mark was Peter's secretary who took down the words.  When I was a kid, I was writing long before I could read.  We see now that the acts of reading, and writing are two separate things.  I think in this society, because they are taught at the same time, we tend to see them as related:  apparently they aren't.

I loved your reflection on Paul.  So, you gotta ask yourself:  did Paul see the light because his theology changed, or did he see the light because his relationship with God changed?

Once Paul's relationship with God changed, did His theology change? Obviously it did, and Paul gave us most of our doctrine and theology, ALL THE WHILE NEVER RELEASING THE ASCENDENCY OF LOVE OVER KNOWLEDGE! :o) But at no point did he encourage us to leave knowledge behind- he simply exhorted us to KEEP IT IN ITS PROPER PLACE, under the love and humility of the divine nature- a tool for edification as opposed to A WEAPON IN CONTENTIONS.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 28, 2013, 05:55:12 AM
Once Paul's relationship with God changed, did His theology change? Obviously it did, and Paul gave us most of our doctrine and theology, ALL THE WHILE NEVER RELEASING THE ASCENDENCY OF LOVE OVER KNOWLEDGE! :o) But at no point did he encourage us to leave knowledge behind- he simply exhorted us to KEEP IT IN ITS PROPER PLACE, under the love and humility of the divine nature- a tool for edification as opposed to A WEAPON IN CONTENTIONS.

I think you got the order right, Eagle.  First God, then your relationship with Him.  You don't become right with God because your theology makes your relationship with God okay, your theology is okay because your relationship with God is right.  I think some would then go to the conclusion that if your relationship with God is okay, you don't need theology because you have the source inspiring you.  I'm not sure I wouldn't  say that myself.

I would. I've found the more and better I know God, the less theology matters.
I wonder how much theology Adam knew as he walked with God in the Garden?
I have a few friends that haven't died off yet. I don't have to study them or read about them because
I know them. Deep down. They are friends and I believe I am a friend of God and he is a friend of mine.
I read his letters(little books) to me (I have 66) and really don't care much what others say about the 66 letters(little books)
that he sent to them. Our friendship and relationship is ours. He interacts with others differently and that's OK because they are different than me and like me, are always changing :Peace2:. Only He is the same, yesterday, now, and tomorrow.

I wonder how much theology Adam knew as he walked with God in the Garden?

I know that the above is a rhetorical question.
But I will answer it any way.
He did not know the difference between right and wrong.

My theology is :
the only way I can walk peacefully with God .
Is to purposely ignore or evaluate right or wrong.
At the same time that God is not remembering my rights and wrongs.
As we walk I tell him what I see , with-out the right or wrong concept.

He is a GREAT TEACHER..in the garden..God brought each animal for Adam

to oberve and name the characteristics of[nature]  This was Father teaching

Adam..and part of the preparation for Adam's God-given dominion over the earth.

...and let him have in subjection all the fish and birds and beasts etc..

  examining and naming the nature of such lower creations..both positive and negative

   intelligence is an attribute of God..wisdom from above...which He puts in our minds.

   no man will teach His brother......

  Come to me,all you who are weary and burdened,and I will give you rest....

  take my yoke upon you,and LEARN FROM ME,for I am gentle and humble of

heart,and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden light.

   God will never give us more than we can bear..His yoke is light.  But as Jesus

testified..there are religious leaders who would tie up heavy loads on men impossible

to bear.   why..they so burdened OUR LORD THAT ASSISTANCE FROM  A CYRENE

HAD TO BE PRESSED INTO SERVICE...THE LORD OF ALL GLORY NEEDED ASSIST_-

ANCE TO CARRY HIS CROSS..and the secular powers did it....no thanks

to the Pharisees,sadducees and court of the sanhedren

Quote from: dajomaco on February 28, 2013, 07:59:55 PM
I wonder how much theology Adam knew as he walked with God in the Garden?

I know that the above is a rhetorical question.
But I will answer it any way.
He did not know the difference between right and wrong.

My theology is :
the only way I can walk peacefully with God .
Is to purposely ignore or evaluate right or wrong.
At the same time that God is not remembering my rights and wrongs.
As we walk I tell him what I see , with-out the right or wrong concept.

Interesting concept. Yet, not exactly scriptural so, imo not exactly theological- more like a personal philosophy, and a good philosophy if one is perfected in love.

Adam knew a lot. We don't know how long he was in the garden before he fell, but I doubt that he and God were just sitting in the lotus position, chanting some mantra. "Ohhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm". :o)  I think they were communicating on many levels.

No Doubt
They were not sitting around.

They were walking as God brought by his wonderful creatures.
Adam with a scientific Zeal would have been naming and identifying
the various characteristics of each.

He did not have to worry about being right nor wrong.
So he could do that ,that God delighted in.   

Quote from: sheila on February 28, 2013, 08:29:18 PM
He is a GREAT TEACHER..in the garden..God brought each animal for Adam

to oberve and name the characteristics of[nature]  This was Father teaching

Adam..and part of the preparation for Adam's God-given dominion over the earth.

...and let him have in subjection all the fish and birds and beasts etc..

  examining and naming the nature of such lower creations..both positive and negative

   intelligence is an attribute of God..wisdom from above...which He puts in our minds.

   no man will teach His brother......

Though evolutionists mention the "teeming forth" of more and more complex forms, Adam was intimately viewing successions of development.  Calling the destinies and identities of lesser creatures, as they were all brought before Him, delineated the void within where there was not found one in accordance with (or, like) the one most like, or (The Adam, meaning) "LIKE-est" of "The One Great All-togetherness upon High."  This teaching of natures prepared Adam for His affirmation, making up what He lacked, a helper adjusting to him.

If there is a male, there's a female, and it's not a female without a male.  Together they're a unit.  The two shall be One.  It's not good for one to be alone without the other.  Love is the investment that bridges the distance to an Other.

Were the animals male and female before Adam was?

"From the very beginning the Lord God made them male and female"

Male and female water types like fish were created on the 4th day, male and female birds on the fifth
and male and female humans and all other male and female land animals on the sixth.
Everything that creepeth (and creepeth out) upon the face of the earth was created by the sixth day.

yea thats right :o)

Come to Me, all of you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

"Woe also to you experts in the law! You load people with burdens that are hard to carry, yet you yourselves don't touch these burdens with one of your fingers.

IMO The burden is to try and have a relationship with God ,while having the knowledge of Good and evil.

In this burden we have the tools to make our burden light.

Believe that you and God are in a wonderful Love relationship.

I think there is a lot of wisdom in that daj.  May I add:  "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Mat 11:29-30)... as a compliment to your post.

Interesting concept. Yet, not exactly scriptural so, imo not exactly theological- more like a personal philosophy, and a good philosophy if one is perfected in love.

IMO The freedom we deny for ourselves, will always be seen as sin in some one else. 

"Well let's just say I would never to that.

I'm not judging them but I would never do that.

It seems to me you are speaking of personally judging others. I am speaking of discernment.

John the Baptist was beheaded for discering the actions of Herod. Jesus discerned the actions of the buyers and sellers in the temple. Peter discerned the deceit of Annanias and Saphira.

Discernment is the evaluation of good and evil in the hands of love.

Judging is the evaluation of good and evil by ones own standard, or by the letter(law) of the word.

They should be distinguished by the wise and one should be embraced, the other rejected.

  This is  good advice Eaglesway ,  discernment 
wisdom   ,from above God  gives when we ask in Matt 7
great posts  guys        thought of by their fruits you shall know them
  fruits of the Spirit  :thumbsup: Love

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
  Jesus teaching/doctrine   in  discerment  in Matt 7

Hi rosered. Nice to see you back on the boards :o)

Discernment is the evaluation of good and evil in the hands of love.

IMO In the hands of LOVE, the discernment of good and evil are not required.
My hands are full of Grace so full of grace there is no capacity to hold on to good or evil.
I can not grasp good or evil any more. Grace is all can hang onto.

 a young couple had a little daughter..5 yrs old.  she was loved of all neighbors and friends;and

was a very loving trusting delightful child.

. One day..a pediphile offered her some candy...and the little child..not knowing good from evil

went off with him,taking his hand in her trustfullness.....................LOVE FROM FATHER REQUIRES

  THAT HE WILL EDUCATE YOU SO AS TO PROTECT YOU,NOT JUDGE YOU..

p.s. Daj

     God's spirit knows what lies in the darkness.   be cautious as serpents,yet innocent as doves.

    Love protects from harm..it is not ignorant of evil...it knows what it is..and gives it

  a wide berth.

    Wisdom from Above is love and truth in action. it delivers from evil[deliver us from the evil]

For from the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immoralities, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.

I can't give my heart a wide berth.
So I go in it and through it to Grace.

I assure you," He said, "unless you are converted and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Sheila I have a very controversial view of Grace.
I could share it in the members only section or you could PM.

Would there be more children or fewer children killed by
pedophiles if they received grace.

Quote from: sheila on March 08, 2013, 09:44:39 PM
she was loved of all neighbors and friends;and
...................LOVE FROM FATHER REQUIRES

  THAT HE WILL EDUCATE YOU SO AS TO PROTECT YOU,NOT JUDGE YOU..

I don't want to interrupt too much, I'll make a quick comment and get back out :)  but I do agree with that (along with some other things that have been said in the thread),  :thumbsup:     

I also would like to add, that I personally understand that when grace is applied (i.e., an individual is drawn to the Father, through the Son, faith given to believe unto salvation) that is all a work of the Holy Spirit, in God's perfect timing, and it will not fail to deliver fruit.  Some connected scrip thoughts;  "old things passing away, all things becoming new";  "new creature in Christ Jesus";  "such [consumed with sin] were some of you";  "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith".   I.e, when the Holy Spirit intercedes, we're not on our own.  Jesus has taken up residence, abides with and in us, and "will complete what He has begun".   :2c:

Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord.  Amen, blessings.

Dajomaco
I am really interested in radical concepts of grace. If you don't go into the members only room with it would you mind pm-ing me too? 

Quote from: dajomaco on March 08, 2013, 11:57:36 PM
For from the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immoralities, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.

I can't give my heart a wide berth.
So I go in it and through it to Grace.

I assure you," He said, "unless you are converted and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Sheila I have a very controversial view of Grace.
I could share it in the members only section or you could PM.

Would there be more children or fewer children killed by
pedophiles if they received grace.

I agree with this. If there were more grace, there would be more light. If there were light, there would be love. Where love is, the hunger dies as the predator sees the love of Jesus.

This is the kind of discernment that grows in the beloved as they grow in grace. They can see the sin, pouring from the sinner and still love him/her.

Yet- in this age there is also salt, which in itself is also grace. "Everyone will be salted with fire and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt."

But this fire is seasoning us with light that consumes darkness, love that consumes hatred, grace that consumes law, forgiveness that consumes condemnation.

The reason the "church" has no answer for sinners, no life for the dead, no light for the lost- is because they are to busy judging sinners as if they werent and trying to fight sin through the flesh instead of yielding to "death with Christ" so that they
ca be "raised up in newness of life".

Where grace is really present, the dead will come to life and the blind will see and the brokenhearted will be healed. Where the light is shining the darkness flees.