How to adjust

[Captain.Theophilus]

I'm having a hard time adjusting to UR

I am very theologically minded, and I like my "system" that I have set up around the doctrine of ET. So many things hinge on that one doctrine it is very hard to make the adjustment. I don't really know how to think about hell anymore, or its purpose. Prior to UR my belief was that Hell vindicated God's justice through wretched smells,  fiery torment and burning flesh. Now that I realize Hell is not this, what am I to think about Hell/lake of fire? How will the purification process be carried out, and how long will it take to complete?

What exactly happens to unbelievers when they die?

Also, why do ET people so vehemently defend their position? I've seen generally a stronger reaction from evangelicals to UR than I have from even suggesting that Jesus was merely a man (not God.) That is to say, there's a stronger reaction from Christians against denying ET than there is about denying something far more imperative, like the deity of Christ.

Why do ET'ers hold on so strongly??? It seriously baffles me. Most of us would agree that committing adultery would be worse than believing something wrong in your theology, and yet there's more forgiveness and grace for Christians who commit adultery than there is for people who believe in UR. I'm seen as a worse person if I denied Hell than I would be if I slept around.

Is it because of some fear that they will end up in hell if they don't believe in it? That if they forgo this doctrine their lives will sink into an abyss  of sin and they will finally end up there? I think people are very afraid of Hell, and rightfully so, most people would rather believe a false doctrine   (ET) their whole temporary lives and avoid Hell for eternity, than to believe a true doctrine (UR) and simply be more comfortable about the fate of humanity in this life.

But it's very hard for me to adjust when ET'ers have this kind of reaction, in fact belligerancy and arrogance is a pet peeve of mine and I've never seen so much amply demonstrated since I started to purport the doctrine of UR.

[redhotmagma]

To answer the question about why people won't get it. 

FEAR

How long will it take to complete?  As long as it takes

How will purification be carried out?  Divine fire, His love burning through you, laying you bare before the mighty God, I know many will disagree with me but I don't believe it will take longer than seconds.  How can you stand in His presence?  "Who will not fear you and bless your holy name".

:2c:

[misszoolander]

IMO Captain..

How long will it take for the process to be complete?

"Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do"

"Lord, I realize now what I have done, forgive me!I submit everything to your feet, have mercy, what will you have me do?"

Once a sinner says the above or something like it,  I believe that's when people of no faith will be reborn.
How long depends on the person.

Captain I also want to say I have seen you on other forums, spreading the good news. I applaud you, no actually  I thank you for striving and standing up for Jesus, and the mission he has accomplished.

It grieves my heart too, when my fellow Christians look at me with disgust and exclude me to the point where they have to spell it out for me that I am not "a sister in Christ". It truly grieves me, my own mother sent me the book "23 minutes in hell" to sway me, to fear me into believing hell is eternal.
But I sense this has happened before, not to us.. but to Jesus and his disciples.
The pharisees, lovers of tradition, did they not exclude Jesus....?

Sometimes when the pain of exclusion is too hard to bear all I can mutter is...Oh Lord, come quickly!

[onlytruth]

And people wonder , why you begin to seperate from the established church!?

[misszoolander]

Oh sorry, I will try answer this as well to the best of my knowledge, (which isn't great unfortunately LOL)

What exactly happens to unbelievers when they die?

For me to answer this and say I know for sure what happens would be a lie,  being completely honest I don't know for sure what the exact process is..

However IMO what I have discovered so far is that God will unveil all the ignorance of a person. God will show the truth, to every question, to every lesson. This truth may burn,   For an example lets say I believed ET, and threatened people with it everyday.  When I die, my hell may very well be God showing me the fear, the insecurity, the torment  I've placed in the heart of others, when compared to the awesome eternal love of God, this revelation may hurt, it may burn, it may be so overwhelming, that it's all consuming. However once I understand this lesson, and accept God for who he is, and the lessons he has taught us and submit fully to him I believe that is when I will be reborn.

Here is an example in scripture -

Romans 12:20 - If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head. By God showing and revealing is mercy and love one will burn with the shame of their own lack of such things, and sincerely repent and submit themselves to the Lord.

[redhotmagma]

Yes miszoolander. Amen that's quite how I see it.

[Lazarus Short]

Captain Theo, I read your post and this is what came to my mind.  Did you ever see the movie What Dreams May Come?  I remember when the Robin Williams character sets foot in "Hell," stepping over the faces of people mired in muck, and who were still babbling in defense of their sins, not even aware that they were dead.  Damnationists seem like that to me, so mired in their theo-illogical trap, and bringing up the same old, same old, verses and parables to justify it.

This is not simply a theological issue, no, not at all.  ET and ED are spiritual strongholds which must be pulled down.

[reFORMer]

This is not simply a theological issue, no, not at all.  ET and ED are spiritual strongholds which must be pulled down.

That is it...it's a spiritual battle for men's minds.  So very much is as stake.  Lately I've been considering the question, "What does it take to walk in a similar anointing for healing that Jesus walked in?  How could the sensitive Holy Spirit rest upon anything other than our seeing God as loving people unconditionally?  Otherwise, those we would deal with probably wouldn't be healed, not being worthy...and Jesus healed all that came unto Him.  Paul understood that to fully preach the gospel meant the display of miraculous power, including to heal.  It was compassion that moved Jesus to heal.

Rm 1518-19, CLT...
18 For I am not daring to speak any of what Christ does not effect through me for the obedience of the nations, in word and work,
19 in the power of signs and miracles, in the power of God's spirit, so that, from Jerusalem and around unto Illyricum, I have completed the evangel of the Christ.

I think we should pray to be so taught that God can bear witness to our words with His power that the nations would obey the gospel.

[rosered]

 Hello  all   and  especially for CT

You may find this odd , but this very morning  , the Lord blessed with some insight on the very things you are asking and declaring  in your above post
  I for one had no  idea  that again was going to post at Tent , but this message  is for you  and just confirmation   for me
  first  you must start looking at things in Gods perspective  , death has been swallowed up in victory  already  , the CROSS of Jesus Christ is , was and will always be that turning point  for all mankind ,
allow Gods Spirit to tear down the walls  of your perspective on how you see things , when we look though the Spirits eyes we can see far beyond those prision walls
, things that hold us captive to certain thoughts  that just defy  the very work of God though Jesus Christ the ''open show ''   of destroying powers and principalies in high places , that being those things that hold our minds captive  to earth bound thoughts 
when one dies in the mortal body  , the mortal body   ramains for the earth to take it back
    making Gods word so true , but the new and spiritual body  is joined to Christ   the head of all authority  , this happens at death   ,  even if we are still in the mortal body still or released from it
 
GODS plan is flawless   and will not fail  in any sense of the word , to so many  who  have tasted  death and found  that  Jesus is Lord and master of the  universe , making universal  salvation  a  glorious   power beyond the  natural realm of things  ,  a hope beyond  reality  , its a work of God that  is perfect and complete and entire  wanting for nothing   , we  can only hope to taste it while still in our mortal bodies ,  and there are so many witnesses  to  declare this truth , the grave cannot hold Gods Spirit  and all whom is gathered into it , God is a consuming Fire  , God is Love  and God is eternal  :HeartThrob:  hope this helps  , it was not meant to stirr up any strife or contentions

[sheila]

amen,my sister :HeartThrob:  It is the last enemy death subjected unto Him..as He tasted

death for every man...and the quickening spirit, that the last Adam is. It is the Glory of

  Jesus Christ as He sits at the Father's side...that the Father place death under the feet

  of the Son.   Praise,God...!!!!!!!!!

[MLCCP]

To answer the question about why people won't get it. 

FEAR

How long will it take to complete?  As long as it takes

How will purification be carried out?  Divine fire, His love burning through you, laying you bare before the mighty God, I know many will disagree with me but I don't believe it will take longer than seconds.  How can you stand in His presence?  "Who will not fear you and bless your holy name".

:2c:

Doesn't the idea of a Protestant "purgatory"  dilute what Jesus did on the Cross. John 1:29 says Jesus took away the sin of the world, which I firmly believe. Not some of the sin, but all of it.  Col 2:14 says our sins were nailed to the Cross. 2 Cor 5:19 says we were reconciled to God.

I'm brand new to CU and have disavowed the traditional views of hell for the grand total of about a week. What a relief it is.

I'm not criticizing, but inquiring. IOW, what purification can we go through that the Cross of Christ hasn't already accomplished for us?

Is there any Scripture other than 1 Cor 3:15 that speaks of a person being purified after death?

I'm with you, though. It's been a week or so for me finally accepting the fact that the bible teaches universal salvation for all of God's creation, and in that time I have been called "crazy," "nuts," and a "heretic." I must be on the right path.

[ded2daworld]

Welcome MLCCP.
I think most, if not all of us here have been called those names - even by dear friends and family. Feel free to express yourself and to read other comments and posts. :Peace2:

[sheila]

...well,God's word is a fire..both living water and fire....showing that He would declare

all truth and clear up 'dross' of lies and misunderstandings.  and All your children shall

be taught of God.  Just as Jesus Christ does away with the son of perdition with the breath

  of His coming....Holy spirit baptism..'tongues of fire' purify

   Indeed we shall all be baptized of Him with Holy spirit and fire........it is the jealousy

of His love for mankind..that He does this for all of us....for love is as strong as death[the

last enemy]   Unyeilding as the grave......it burns like a blazing fire[death thrown into lof]

like a mighty flame.

   when He does this for man...man realizes how much he fell short of the LOVE that was

in the Father and His son..that He would Not give us up to death.  The salvation of man

is the GLORY OF GOD...

   The Whole Creation shall have GREAT JOY TO KNOW HIM AS HE TRULY IS.. AND SHALL

REJOICE IN HIM ETERNALLY

[MLCCP]

Welcome MLCCP.
I think most, if not all of us here have been called those names - even by dear friends and family. Feel free to express yourself and to read other comments and posts. :Peace2:

Thanks. I'm used to being in the minority when it comes to theological discourse. I guess I even disagree with myself sometimes. It's going to take a while to get the hang of this site, but most of the comments I have read seem to be from really sincere, caring people.

[rosered]

   Great thoughts Shelia   :iagree:

I'm not criticizing, but inquiring. IOW, what purification can we go through that the Cross of Christ hasn't already accomplished for us?

Is there any Scripture other than 1 Cor 3:15 that speaks of a person being purified after death?

Hi MLCCP ,
In other Words , it is the LORDS  judments  and decision to seperate   and burn out every  thing that cannot dwell in the Fire of Gods consuming Love  ,   compare these   to one another 

some  favorite verses  is found in Isaiah and in Hebrews  that     fulfill in Christ ,
you see the burning  about you   and holy seed that remains is Christ  in you the hope of Glory to KNOW GOD  the Father in the most intimate way , His thoughts and How He does this magnificent   work  ,  when peace floods your soul /life and  you know its not you doing any of it , But HIM !  Praise be to God the only  true and living thing that does remain eternal in glory !
  exciting it is to just go there in  these powerful  thoughts !

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?

who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil      He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure. Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off. 


Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel
please remember the  hypocrits  were  trying to keep  prisoners by fear to the covenant of death 

which we KNOW GOD ANNULLED , BY THE WORK OF THE CROSS of Jesus Christ , we are now experincing those   wonderful works  within us  individually  , setting us free  from the captivity in our minds and hearts by the power of God   resting on us by His Holy Spiriit     
hope this helps  a bit  as it has been to me   , and sharing it  only  to glorify Him ! :)

[MLCCP]

Thank you so much for your most thoughtful comments. I like to focus not so much on all the details, but on the fact that God is Love. That is His Essence and Nature. Holy Writ never says God is vengence or God is Justice. Love is what God IS, and the attribute of justice cannot trump Love.

Also, it seems to me, that if one single person ends up in a cosmic torture chamber, then Satan wins, and we know that is impossible. Everyone I talk to seems to demand justice. I seek mercy.

[ded2daworld]

That's hitting the nail on the head Alex

Everyone wants justice for "others"
and wants mercy for themselves, friends, and most family members. :laughing7:

God is love. It's what he is, it's what he does...always.

[rosered]

Wonderful   thoughts MLCCP
You said  here ,

Thank you so much for your most thoughtful comments. I like to focus not so much on all the details, but on the fact that God is Love. That is His Essence and Nature. Holy Writ never says God is vengence or God is Justice. Love is what God IS, and the attribute of justice cannot trump Love.

Also, it seems to me, that if one single person ends up in a cosmic torture chamber, then Satan wins, and we know that is impossible. Everyone I talk to seems to demand justice. I seek mercy.

  Yes ineed,  Love wins !      :dsunny:
  when we do come to Mount Zion / Sion [ the presence of God ] are judged  , but we know the fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom   :dsunny:  not the end , for the End is to be  made like HIM !  perfect and complet in Christ whom is in GOD
  Afraid of  being judged of  my sins terrified me , by what  was instilled as a small child  after declaring salvation  , its instinctive to go condemn the world  now that you are safe , this is the teaching to make fear   your only hold on those  rebellious  sinners   , see that mindset ???

Well  its hardly  righteous  ,,, correct ?  well little do we realize but as we judge others  so shall we be judged     
Thats a fair and righteous God ! 
I was never so miserable  as    being held in Babylon , captive to all those unrightous thoughts and deeds ! 
afraid   and  tormenting   and real as    fire and rain !
  So you see when  you let go and Let God ,  He does make all things new !  clean pure and perfect for His purpose and kingdom  ,  God bless you on your journey to discover the  true Glory of God in the Light of the ever burning Fire of His presence  :HeartThrob:


    ded , you said bascially the same thing as   the rest of us ..lol :)

[redhotmagma]

Amen to both posts Rose. When your judgement is in the earth the people learn righteousness/justice

[MLCCP]

We all are to stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Pretty hard for me to look to the next guy over and judge him, while I'm also being judged. We have to remember we are the judged, not the judges, and I for one, don't want to be.

Where's the good news in all of this? The good news is that at the judgment, we have Jesus Christ as our public defender. In fact, we are "all in Christ" whether we know it or not. How so? Because He came  to save sinners and he cannot fail.

People can fuss and fume and deny all they want to, but they can't reject something that has already been accomplished FOR THEM. The Cross is finished, the sins are nailed to the Cross, and "all things will be restored." All things does not  mean some things, as some of my brothers and sisters think. Adam brought death to all. Christ brought life to all. If that weren't the case, then God was mistaken when he looked at His creation and said everything "is very good."

But God isn't mistaken and the blessed truth is, contrary to popular opinion, that our Father in heaven, being omnipotent doesn't create mistakes, then doom them to the cosmic torture chamber, so all the "saved" can rub their hands in a joyful "I told you so," holier than thou attitude.

God never, ultimately, gave up on Israel and look how they treated their Savior. Just like we treat Him. However, He remains faithful even if we don't, and most of the time we don't.

We all struggle through life--from one disaster to the next, with brief interludes of happiness thrown in. That is life and I still love life. I want to go to heaven, but not tonight. Oops, a rabbit trail.

Do I know the details of why things are the way they are? No, and I dare say, neither does anyone else. What I do know from the bottom of my flawed heart is  that the  PERSONAL GOD who  created persons in His image  is not about to kick himself in his own creation, so to speak. He would be doing that if even one of his creatures ended up forever rejecting him and hating him.

Please God, throw me in the brier patch, but don't give me "free will." do decide my destiny.

I'm afraid God created us in His image, and we returned the favor. Let his revealed, written Word guide us and we will all eventually see that all the wars, all the racism, all the hate, all the petty things we do, are as so much dung.

News flash: Believe it or not, it doesn't matter, but every knee will bow (and not like bow or I'll kill you), but bow in praise, worship, and glorifying  God. We are all brothers and sisters, none of us have any reason to brag about anything because everything we have has been a gift from above. You don't believe that? That's fine. You will!!

One more thought. Perish the idea that our so-called decision making can over rule the Sovereign God of the Universe. It can't, and doesn't. God is free to act according to His Essence and Nature, which is Love. Regardless of what tradition tells us, it  comes down to a pardise that was lost, but a pardise that will be restored. And all of God's creatures shouted AMEN!!!

[MLCCP]

Another thought. I said that if you don't believe in Christ, or Universal Salvation you will. Why? Because!!

1 Corinthians 12:3
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

3 Therefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed, and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, except by the Holy Ghost.

But Holy Writ says:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And every tongue shall confess that Yeshua The Messiah is THE LORD JEHOVAH to the glory of God his Father

But you can't confess unless empowered by the Holy Spirit, but everyone will, therefore all are empowered by the Holy Spirit; all saved, all confess, all knees bow, all glorify God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And every creature which is in Heaven and in Earth, under The Earth, in the Sea and all that is in them, I also heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and dominion to him sitting upon the throne and to the Lamb for the eternity of eternities."

[rosered]

 :iagree:        amen to   MLCCP  and  RedHM   .......preaching to the choir  here  :friendstu:

[MLCCP]

I figured that, but I just had to get that out. Sometimes the choir needs preaching to, however. I don't know about you, but I never get bored with hearing the good news that "He's got the whole world in His hands."

Actually, you are right. Who needs to hear any of this since all here know exactly what they believe and why. I'll move on.

[rosered]

figured that, but I just had to get that out. Sometimes the choir needs preaching to, however. I don't know about you, but I never get bored with hearing the good news that "He's got the whole world in His hands."

Actually, you are right. Who needs to hear any of this since all here know exactly what they believe and why. I'll move on.

Oh Its Lovely  to hear MLCCP  :HeartThrob:  ,  I just meant we were all in agreement  , thats all   that   was meant  , honest  :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

...and there are some that read and wonder and still aren't fully convinced so it's a good thing MLC