Justice -?- ?-

[sheila]

yes...God's goodness leads to repentance.

   Daniel 8;26  The vision of the evenings and mornings given to you is true,but seal up the vision

for it concerns the distant future[now]

   and a host was given him against the daily sacrifice

[eaglesway]

For it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. Romans 2:4

Of course, it doesn't always look like kindness as it is leading us there ;o)

All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
(Heb 12:11)

[VineBranch]

What I see here is not so much an act of justice, or even judgement.  What strikes me is that every time we move away from those words and try to hook them up with something else, for example love, we merely confuse the issue.  Those things are already defined without justice, or judgement.

The only one which really makes sense to me is not that justice is redefined to somehow be part of something less odious, like love, but that justice and judgement are eclipsed.  Their definitions are still as horrible and mean as ever, they are simply stepped over.  What was once a great barrier to understanding is now, at best, a tiny speed bump, the overcoming of which is nothing at all.  I don't think we get anywhere by saying there is no awful justice or judgement.  I think it more honest to say that we simply bypass it.  It doesn't matter anymore.  It's power lay in our fear of it.  Now that God has taken us, its hold over us is gone as well.

[Lazarus Short]

All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
(Heb 12:11)

Yes, kind of like slogging through the OT, and then joyfully reading the NT, and becoming a better person thereby.

[redhotmagma]

VB I asked what you meant by justice.  Sorry to go all lexical on ya again here, but judgement has overtones to it that are read into the scriptures (at least compared to a new covenant perspective).  Judgement means to make a decision.  We have been trained to think its harsh punishment aka hell.  Justice the same thing.  Its not eye for an eye.  Its doing right to people, in fact what is many times translated as righteousness, the word diakos, is justice.  That means not taking advantage of people, serving others, walking in Gods will.

It is the greek word that is used in the LXX for tsedek, Melchizedek is melchi +tsedek= king of justice/righteousness.  And that is Jesus.  He is Melchizedek, and her is how he administers justice "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

:2c:

[rjohnson741]

With UR showing us that all will eventually be reconciled to God, what becomes of our notion of justice?

Does our concept of wrongs committed against others undergo a transition as well? 

How will wrongs be re-dressed?

Does forgiveness subsume all?

Can there truly be such a thing as repentance?

God's justice is higher than man justice. God's justice requires that everything is returned to the way it was before the offence occurred. Man's justice cannot do that, but God's justice can. This is what God's(love's) justice requires:

1.Vengeance for the victims(man's justice).

2.Rehabilitation of the perpetrator(Grace).

3.The reconciliation of the perpetrator and victim(repentance and forgiveness).

Yes, God's justice requires Vengeance, Grace and Reconciliation. That is call setting things right, back to the way it was before the offence occurred. In fact, that is the Biblical definition of justice--"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right"? Genesis 18:25.

[Lazarus Short]

So, part of justice is for us to repent, and do right, to be just.

[rjohnson741]

So, part of justice is for us to repent, and do right, to be just.

Yes. A part of God's Justice is for us to repent, confess our sins, and do be just--"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and [just] to [forgive] us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1John 1:9. 

[VineBranch]

VB I asked what you meant by justice.  Sorry to go all lexical on ya again here, but judgement has overtones to it that are read into the scriptures (at least compared to a new covenant perspective).  Judgement means to make a decision.  We have been trained to think its harsh punishment aka hell.  Justice the same thing.  Its not eye for an eye.  Its doing right to people, in fact what is many times translated as righteousness, the word diakos, is justice.  That means not taking advantage of people, serving others, walking in Gods will.

It is the greek word that is used in the LXX for tsedek, Melchizedek is melchi +tsedek= king of justice/righteousness.  And that is Jesus.  He is Melchizedek, and her is how he administers justice "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

:2c:

Please brother, never apologize for going lexical ... words am the coolest things.

You've asked a fair question (what do I mean by justice). I mean this ...

In my world there are consequences to actions.  Those consequences have been observed and taught since we were children.  You stick your hand on a flame, and it hurts.  This is a 'natural' (we can debate that word later if you wish) consequence of cause and effect.  As we grow older we see this spread into a wide range of contexts. 

We grow to see it acted out in the arena of human behaviour.  You stay up all night with your friends, and the next day you are tired, and probably don't do as great a job at what ever it is you do. 

We further learn that there are social consequences to acts.  You embarrass you girlfriend in front of her friends, she makes your life less than fun.  These are consequences to our actions.

We then figure out, the notion of moral consequences.  This in my mind is where justice lives.  The definition I was using was quite simply:  "the administration of deserved punishments or rewards."  True justice can only be administered by one outside the realm of opinion.  Justice can't be based on opinion, it must be based on objective knowledge.  The following is just and example, I pray you, don't take umbrage with the specifics, any example would have done.

When I read that the wages of sin is death (I think it should be 'are' death, but then I've been down that road too many times to argue it anymore), firstly, I think they have a lousy union, and secondly, the natural moral consequence of sin is the sinner dying.  traditionally, most of what I knew about God was that He was a just god.  I took that to mean that He was in charge of punishment and reward.

The notion of judgment is simply, "forming an opinion, or conclusion, from circumstances and situation which present themselves."  Thus, if the wages of sin 'is' death, the logical conclusion is if you sin you die and it is not an opinion, but it's the gig.

When UR came along, there was no punishment:   if 'all' will be drawn to God, and there will be none lost there is no punishment ... ergo no justice.  So, I asked, where did it go?

[VineBranch]

This is what God's(love's) justice requires: 1.Vengeance for the victims(man's justice) 2.Rehabilitation of the perpetrator(Grace) 3.The reconciliation of the perpetrator and victim(repentance and forgiveness). Yes, God's justice requires Vengeance, Grace and Reconciliation.

God's love requires vengeance?

Could you go over that.  Maybe slowly:  visual aids might help.  This is a strange god to me, so maybe you could use small words.

[jabcat]

When UR came along, there was no punishment:   if 'all' will be drawn to God, and there will be none lost there is no punishment ... ergo no justice.  So, I asked, where did it go?

I may not be addressing the question with the exact answer, but it's what keeps coming into my mind so I'll put it out there.  Wouldn't the all-encompassing, finished (tetelestai, paid in full) work of the cross come in there somewhere?  Blessings.

[redhotmagma]

Amen James.

VB you are right on with the word natural, that is the word used often in 1 Co 15 when it speaks of the natural and the spiritual.  All of this goes back to the 2 trees in the midst of the garden (possibly occupying the same space, but that is for another time).  The TOKOGAE is the natural.  Good and Evil.  Punishment and Reward.  That is the function of the law.  There are natural laws in this realm.  There are consequences.  The law though was weak and useless.  To do what?  JUSTIFY.  It could never make us right, which is the positive part of justice (according to modern usage, and OT usage).  According to the law we all deserve death.  Thats it.  And we got it.  According to Gods measure all the retribution required is death.  The OT was tied to temporal reward and consequence.  Nothing after, which is as we know one of the pillars to knock down in ET, the OT had no real "eternal" consequence.

Even if there is some, like Jab said things changed.  And where there is a death of the testator their is a new testament.  And with a change of the testament there is a change in the priesthood.  The cross was the summing up of law.  It was fulfilled.  Tetelestai, paid in full.  We are no longer judged according to the law because Christ died, all died.  We are now judged according to the Tree of Life, which is Christ.  We have been set free from the law of sin and death.  The only retribution is to be changed into the image of the heavenly.  Yes death and law still exist in this realm, but like you said the judge must be outside of the situation.  And He is.  He is Life.  The TOKOGAE/Law was buried in the ground.  And the Tree of Life sprouted up.  Thats why we only see the TOL in Rev.  Flesh and blood cannot inheret the kingdom of God.  Spirit and Life can. 

[VineBranch]

When UR came along, there was no punishment:   if 'all' will be drawn to God, and there will be none lost there is no punishment ... ergo no justice.  So, I asked, where did it go?

I may not be addressing the question with the exact answer, but it's what keeps coming into my mind so I'll put it out there.  Wouldn't the all-encompassing, finished (tetelestai, paid in full) work of the cross come in there somewhere?  Blessings.

Yes very definitely, that is why I asked the example be treated only as such.  I was using the cause and effect of sin and death to show a logical connection, not deny the work of the cross.  Any statement which said x leads to y would have done.  It's just, most of us seem to be familiar with that example.

[VineBranch]

Amen James.

VB you are right on with the word natural, that is the word used often in 1 Co 15 when it speaks of the natural and the spiritual.  All of this goes back to the 2 trees in the midst of the garden (possibly occupying the same space, but that is for another time).  The TOKOGAE is the natural.  Good and Evil.  Punishment and Reward.  That is the function of the law.  There are natural laws in this realm.  There are consequences.  The law though was weak and useless.  To do what?  JUSTIFY.  It could never make us right, which is the positive part of justice (according to modern usage, and OT usage).  According to the law we all deserve death.  Thats it.  And we got it.  According to Gods measure all the retribution required is death.  The OT was tied to temporal reward and consequence.  Nothing after, which is as we know one of the pillars to knock down in ET, the OT had no real "eternal" consequence.

Even if there is some, like Jab said things changed.  And where there is a death of the testator their is a new testament.  And with a change of the testament there is a change in the priesthood.  The cross was the summing up of law.  It was fulfilled.  Tetelestai, paid in full.  We are no longer judged according to the law because Christ died, all died.  We are now judged according to the Tree of Life, which is Christ.  We have been set free from the law of sin and death.  The only retribution is to be changed into the image of the heavenly.  Yes death and law still exist in this realm, but like you said the judge must be outside of the situation.  And He is.  He is Life.  The TOKOGAE/Law was buried in the ground.  And the Tree of Life sprouted up.  Thats why we only see the TOL in Rev.  Flesh and blood cannot inheret the kingdom of God.  Spirit and Life can.

So, are you saying then that the only reason there was a notion of justice is because there was the law?  Paul said he knew what sin was because the law showed him.  Is it the case then that the only way there can be justice is that there is law, and when the law was fulfilled, justice was put away?  Is there no justice without the law?  That sounds intriguing.

I am seeing that to me, it is more and more a property of my understanding of UR.  It is very incomplete, and I'll be the first to admit it.  My thinking was, it didn't really matter how long it took, eventually there would be justice, a separation of those God understood to have tried to live according to his purposes, and those who chose to separate themselves from Him, by being totally about themselves.  With UR, eventually all will be reconciled, so there is no eventual justice, only reconciliation.   If what you are saying is true, it is the law which removed justice, as I understood it, from the table.  Did I get that right?

[lomarah]

I LOVE the book of Jonah for that very reason. I remember one of my professors saying Jonah was probably the "worst" prophet in regards to the fact that his heart wasn't for the people, yet he was one of the "best" prophets in that his message was actually incredibly effective. Another one of those divine ironies LOL!

[rjohnson741]

This is what God's(love's) justice requires: 1.Vengeance for the victims(man's justice) 2.Rehabilitation of the perpetrator(Grace) 3.The reconciliation of the perpetrator and victim(repentance and forgiveness). Yes, God's justice requires Vengeance, Grace and Reconciliation.

God's love requires vengeance?

Could you go over that.  Maybe slowly:  visual aids might help.  This is a strange god to me, so maybe you could use small words.

You are misquoting me. I didn't say God's love requires vengeance, I said God's(love's) JUSTICE requires vengeance. Remember, God is love(1John 4:8). So I could just as easily have said Love's JUSTICE requires vengeance. This is how God's justice work's--''Never pay back evil for evil to anyone'' Romans 12:17. ''Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, ''VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY, SAYS THE LORD'' Romans 12:19. And how does God expect us to pay back evil--''But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. God would not tell us to do something that He Himself would not do. Also God's wrath and vegeance are expression of God's love. In other words, love can hurt sometimes. Any disobedient child who has been spanked by loving parents can tell you that.

[VineBranch]

You are misquoting me. I didn't say God's love requires vengeance, I said God's(love's) JUSTICE requires vengeance.

If God's love is the source of justice, and that justice is created to desire vengeance, then it is the source which created the need for vengeance.  If that is true then the source seeks vengeance.  If God's love seeks vengeance, then the source of God's love, ie. God, seeks vengeance, or else God has no integrity and is not the all and all.

Remember, God is love(1John 4:8). So I could just as easily have said Love's JUSTICE requires vengeance.

But you didn't, you said God's love seeks vengeance.

[redhotmagma]

So, are you saying then that the only reason there was a notion of justice is because there was the law?  Paul said he knew what sin was because the law showed him.  Is it the case then that the only way there can be justice is that there is law, and when the law was fulfilled, justice was put away?  Is there no justice without the law?  That sounds intriguing.

I am seeing that to me, it is more and more a property of my understanding of UR.  It is very incomplete, and I'll be the first to admit it.  My thinking was, it didn't really matter how long it took, eventually there would be justice, a separation of those God understood to have tried to live according to his purposes, and those who chose to separate themselves from Him, by being totally about themselves.  With UR, eventually all will be reconciled, so there is no eventual justice, only reconciliation.   If what you are saying is true, it is the law which removed justice, as I understood it, from the table.  Did I get that right?

Not that justice was put away, but redefined.  Or resurrected.  Just as the law(justice) was nailed to the cross and buried in the ground in Jesus' flesh, it was resurrected in His glorious body.  It being love God, love others.  Gods wrath is literally orgy, it is an outpouring of His fiery love which transforms all into His image. 

Heaping burning coals on their heads is saving their lives.  When people would lose fire they could die from the cold, so they would go to the neighbors house and ask for coals to light their fire.  They carried it on their heads in a little container.

And yes the law did remove justice(natural justice) because it wrapped all up in disobedience so that he may have mercy on all.

[rjohnson741]

You are misquoting me. I didn't say God's love requires vengeance, I said God's(love's) JUSTICE requires vengeance.

If God's love is the source of justice, and that justice is created to desire vengeance, then it is the source which created the need for vengeance.  If that is true then the source seeks vengeance.  If God's love seeks vengeance, then the source of God's love, ie. God, seeks vengeance, or else God has no integrity and is not the all and all.

Remember, God is love(1John 4:8). So I could just as easily have said Love's JUSTICE requires vengeance.

But you didn't, you said God's love seeks vengeance.

This is the second time you have misquoted me. Where in any of my comments did I say God's love seeks vengeance? Those are your opinions of what you think I mean. If you are not sure what some of my comments mean, why not just ask me what they mean, instead of assuming you know what they mean? Is this how you discuss with other posters by misquoting them? If that's the case our discussion becomes fruitless.

[eaglesway]

What I see here is not so much an act of justice, or even judgement.  What strikes me is that every time we move away from those words and try to hook them up with something else, for example love, we merely confuse the issue.  Those things are already defined without justice, or judgement.

The only one which really makes sense to me is not that justice is redefined to somehow be part of something less odious, like love, but that justice and judgement are eclipsed.  Their definitions are still as horrible and mean as ever, they are simply stepped over.  What was once a great barrier to understanding is now, at best, a tiny speed bump, the overcoming of which is nothing at all.  I don't think we get anywhere by saying there is no awful justice or judgement.  I think it more honest to say that we simply bypass it.  It doesn't matter anymore.  It's power lay in our fear of it.  Now that God has taken us, its hold over us is gone as well.

IMO, There is nthing at all odious about justice or judgment(depending on what you mean by judgement perhaps- I mean the discernment and righteous revelation of God)). They are both CLEARLY scriptural definitions of elements of God's character. Therefore they must integrate with the whole love paradigm because, GOD IS LOVE. Yet, in love God is teaching us to be just, as a manifestation of respect for our fellow human beings. Respect is also an element of love. God judges(exposes, reveals, destroys) wickedness and iniquity- as transgressions of His love. He punishes evil doers, as a part of the revelation of His character because He loves. He desires that we would love. He is teaching us to love through forgiveness AND discipline. IMO, We do not step over justice and judgement into love. We step through them into love, as we learn to be more like God who loves justice, and hates iniquity- the transgression of love. He does not, however, hate evil doers, but rather forgives them and loves them even as He disciplines them, in order that eventually they will see the error of their way and the beauty of Hs love. It just doesnt look like love to them when He is doing it(disciplining, judging). Only when the veil is taken away, after they have turned to the Lord, will His justice and His discipline look like love.

"Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me..... Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life."

[sheila]

exactly,EW! :thumbsup:

[redhotmagma]

 :thumbsup:

U know its funny how the translators have translated the phrase from Rev " he will rule them with a rod of iron". That word rule is the word Jesus uses when he tells Peter to shepherd his sheep.

[VineBranch]

This is the second time you have misquoted me.

First of all, I didn't quote you.  If you look at reply # 35 you notice these words,

God's love requires vengeance?

Take a good look rj, you'll see there are no quotation marks around the words I wrote.  When you read all the way to the end of the sentence, you will see a question mark.  I was questioning whether or not this is what you said.  Your accusation that I misquoted you is not only false, it hurts.  I try very hard to be honest in my dealing with words, especially the words of others.

In reply #42 you accuse me of misquoting you, words that sting, but I'll get past it.

In reply #43  I explain what I meant.  You didn't make any mention of it, nor did you comment on whether you thought my logic was flawed.  Did you read the explanation?  I'll enclose it in this paragraph in case you just sort of skimmed over it on your way to making your point:  "If God's love is the source of justice, and that justice is created to desire vengeance, then it is the source which created the need for vengeance.  If that is true then the source seeks vengeance.  If God's love seeks vengeance, then the source of God's love, ie. God, seeks vengeance, or else God has no integrity and is not the all and all."  This is an argument predicated on the notion that God is infinite.  If you disagree, we could discuss the logic.

I went out of my way to read what you wrote, I think your first attempt at equating God and love could have been better served had you capitalized the word love in the paranthesis, otherwise love/Love becomes very tangled and complicated.   See, I had to guess what you meant, because your English was confusing.  Then I asked a question to varify that what I read was what you meant .

Imagine my surprise when I read along and found out that ...

In reply #45 you accused me of misquoting you again.  May I take the liberty of showing the words to which you allude (rhetorical question, no question mark needed) ...

But you didn't, you said God's love seeks vengeance.

Again, notice the absence of quotation marks.  If you disagreed with my words, or

If you are not sure what some of my comments mean, why not just ask me what they mean, instead of assuming you know what they mean? Is this how you discuss with other posters by misquoting them? If that's the case our discussion becomes fruitless.

Those were you words right?  This isn't a misquote?

[Molly]

:thumbsup:

U know its funny how the translators have translated the phrase from Rev " he will rule them with a rod of iron". That word rule is the word Jesus uses when he tells Peter to shepherd his sheep.

You're right.  It's the word for tending as a shepherd  But as far as I know, shepherds don't use iron staffs.  Nor do they hit the sheep.   But here we see him breaking the potter's vessels to pieces with this iron staff.

It sounds like a threat to me.



27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

--Rev 2



"rule"
G4165
ποιμαίνω
poimainō
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.







7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

--Psalm 2



Although I guess it could be worse.



And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

--Mat 21:44

[eaglesway]

Notice that it is the potters vessels that get broken.

IMO this is speaking of the nations, specifically their governments, leaders, institutions. If you believe in a historical millennial reign(I do) it makes sense that as the "Word of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea", there will be some resistance. The purpose of breaking the "potter's vessels" is to extend the Jubilee of God to all people, everywhere, in a "Day" during which the world will see what the rule of love, equity and justice could have always been, because it WILL BE.  :2c:

Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing? The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, "Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!" He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them. Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain." "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession. 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'" Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling. Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!
(Psa 2:1-12)