With UR showing us that all will eventually be reconciled to God, what becomes of our notion of justice?
Does our concept of wrongs committed against others undergo a transition as well?
How will wrongs be re-dressed?
Does forgiveness subsume all?
Can there truly be such a thing as repentance?
what do you mean by justice? That is kinda like gospel :happy3: :icon_joker:
IMO wrongs will be re-dressed through love, eye for an eye is buried in the ground, weak and useless as it was. The fire of God's presence, his orgy of love poured out will burn away all the dross leaving all in the image of Christ.
Once we all see what was causing the wrongs we will be able to mete out justice in truth and forgiveness will be the only option. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 03, 2013, 10:19:51 PM
what do you mean by justice? That is kinda like gospel :happy3: :icon_joker:
IMO wrongs will be re-dressed through love, eye for an eye is buried in the ground, weak and useless as it was. The fire of God's presence, his orgy of love poured out will burn away all the dross leaving all in the image of Christ.
I wasn't talking about the definition of justice, more the notion of justice. The inklings, and glimpses, and head scratches you get from being alive and having seen life lived in front of your very eyes.
For example ...
Under ET:
You tick God off, he sends you to hell.
You tick man off, he and Messrs Smith and Wesson send you to hell.
(kinda symmetrical)
Then you find out there is no hell:
You tick God off, he sends you to Spokane.
You tick man off, and they come live with you in Spokane.
(Hell just got redefined, but it kinda still exists ie. where
you are.)
Then you find about UR:
You tick God off and he says "You will eventually run into my open arms because you know I love you and you love me, and we will be reconciled; this was my plan all along".
You tick man off and he ... now what? There is no re-dress. They wind up living in Spokane alone, and where is the justice in that?
O' I think He has a certain 'justice' in mind. THAT WE ALL HAVE TO SPEND ETERNITY
TOGATHER!!!!! LOL!!! Perfect Justice!!
:laugh: Now there's punishment enough hahaha!!!
Quote from: sheila on February 03, 2013, 11:20:41 PM
O' I think He has a certain 'justice' in mind. THAT WE ALL HAVE TO SPEND ETERNITY
TOGATHER!!!!! LOL!!! Perfect Justice!!
It's interesting, that was actually Jean Paul Sartre's definition of hell (No Exit). The UR definition of justice is the former definition of hell. Nice.
LOL! well..what may be a 'trial' for us now...I THINK WILL BE PURE JOY WHEN WE ALL ARE PERFECTED!! :laugh:
I think VB, that in view of the forgiveness we will all receive, our petty vindictiveness, our tit-for-tats, our sense of justice will be humbled by God's Mercy. You must understand the Jubilee principle - debts, monetary, civil, criminal, moral, are all canceled. Mind you, there will be justice meted out in God's judgments of this world and its people, but it will be mitigated with mercy. The parable of the farmer who paid all his help the same it very instructive here. God's rewards and mercies are His to dole out as He sees fit, and man's vision of justice does not enter into it. Picture in your mind a White Throne Judgment accompanied by executions, long jail terms, fines, lashings, and an eye-for-an-eye for every injustice committed since the Apple Incident. It would be Hell, dude!
Agreed. It's just UR seems to change the fabric of understanding. It is more than just linguistic (you have no idea how much it pains me to write that phrase); it's about the canvas itself, not just the picture. The whole reason most people I know have a notion of justice is that they see wrongs. They see wrongs as things which need to be addressed.
If I may, I'll tell you what has happened to me in the last two months or so. The understanding that all will be reconciled to God has replaced almost everything which had separate mental places for me. Love is not an issue I can debate because God shows His ultimate love by not only His patience, but also His understanding. Hell doesn't even exist as a topic, unless it's as a quip or something, like, to hell with hell and good riddance, who in hades needs hell anyway. But as a genuine topic of discussion ... it has gone the way of the eight-track. So, not only did UR wipe out hell, it wiped it out as a valid point of conversation. I'ld rather read a book than discuss hell: it's just that unimportant. It's right up there with how many angels can dance on the head of a pin: which has always seemed a discussion for pinheads anyway. It just seems like UR is so important, it makes a lot of things unimportant. I was just wondering what happens to those things which were once the bread and butter of understanding Christianity.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 04, 2013, 04:28:31 AM
I was just wondering what happens to those things which were once the bread and butter of understanding Christianity.
Faith will cease to be when the things we have faith in become real. 8-tracked.
Hope will cease to be when the things hoped for arrive for us. 8-tracked.
Love will never cease, for it is the woof and warp of God and His redeemed universe.
Consider how God has dealt with sin and injustice - He laid down the eye-for-an-eye rules in the Law, and waited for it to become clear to us that the Law was not enough to bring forth the fruits of righteousness. Then He died for us, in our place. That was a totally unexpected solution to the problem, and the only one which could have succeeded. If we insist that we only want justice and what is (or should be) coming to us, God has something far grander in mind than justice, retribution, revenge, or getting even.
that was beautifully put. :iagree:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 04, 2013, 04:47:17 AM
Quote from: VineBranch on February 04, 2013, 04:28:31 AM
I was just wondering what happens to those things which were once the bread and butter of understanding Christianity.
Faith will cease to be when the things we have faith in become real. 8-tracked.
Hope will cease to be when the things hoped for arrive for us. 8-tracked.
Love will never cease, for it is the woof and warp of God and His redeemed universe.
Consider how God has dealt with sin and injustice - He laid down the eye-for-an-eye rules in the Law, and waited for it to become clear to us that the Law was not enough to bring forth the fruits of righteousness. Then He died for us, in our place. That was a totally unexpected solution to the problem, and the only one which could have succeeded. If we insist that we only want justice and what is (or should be) coming to us, God has something far grander in mind than justice, retribution, revenge, or getting even.
But I don't want justice, I just want to know what happened to it.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 04, 2013, 05:08:53 AM
But I don't want justice, I just want to know what happened to it.
I think it will get eight-tracked, just like faith and hope.
I think the undercurrent of this thread is the reason we have a tough time with guilt, shame, giving and accepting forgiveness. Justice says we must pay for our wrongs...grace says we are forgiven. Our carnal minds love the concept of justice, but is that Gods mind? I believe Gods idea of justice is very different than our own. Let me give you a for instance...
Woman has abortion, later deeply regrets it, has nightmares, post traumatic stress, seeks help...accepts Gods forgiveness...forgives herself...uses her journey as a blessing to those suffering after making the same decision. Was their consequences? Yes. Were the consequences there for pure punitive retribution? No.
Gods justice must be an extension of His agape love since that is how He defines Himself. There is no love in punitive retribution. Justice as an arm of love brings about change, purification, and unification.
How this will work after death I do not know.
Quote from: shawn on February 04, 2013, 06:10:52 AM
Gods justice must be an extension of His agape love since that is how He defines Himself. There is no love in punitive retribution. Justice as an arm of love brings about change, purification, and unification.
But only love can be an extension of love.
Your response still doesn't answer the question where where did it go, it just asks another question: where did it come from?
I think the answer lies somewhere near here: it never was! In a humano-centred thought it takes on artificial importance, in a God-centered thought God is all in all, and the rest is dross.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 04, 2013, 07:18:44 AM
I think the answer lies somewhere near here: it never was! In a humano-centred thought it takes on artificial importance, in a God-centered thought God is all in all, and the rest is dross.
I think you're getting close, so very close. :dsunny:
Forgiveness is the greatest justice. It involves accountability(acknowledgment by the transgressor) and reconciliation(acceptance of the broken and contrite heart) by the one transgressed against. That is why mercy triumphs over judgment. That is why....
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
(Psa 85:10)
Quote from: eaglesway on February 04, 2013, 08:29:13 AM
Forgiveness is the greatest justice. It involves accountability(acknowledgment by the transgressor) and reconciliation(acceptance of the broken and contrite heart) by the one transgressed against. That is why mercy triumphs over judgment. That is why....
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
(Psa 85:10)
Agree 100%.
Justice is not complete, until
both companies can forgive one another.
great thread!!!!
In my opinion, The only justice God requires, ultimately, is that we SEE HIM CLEARLY. Then we will SEE CLEARLY what we are and what we have done so that we can SEE CLEARLY what He has done for us. Then we will SEE CLEARLY whether we ought to(if we can) make restitution and DECLARE FULLY our culpability and REJOICE that God has FULLY FORGIVEN US. Since no one can pay for their sins and no punishment can re-mediate sins and no one can fix the fissure in the relationship between man and God but God- who has done it through the sacrifice of His Son, JUSTICE IS ACKNOWLEDGING the sufficiency of that sacrifice for our sins AND FOR ANYONE WHO HAS SINNED AGAINST US. This to me is REPENTANCE AND FAITH TOWARDS GOD, from among the the foundation doctrines of Hebrews 6.
Any and all punishment/kolassis/pur meted out, whether many stripes or few, is not to provide payment or to equal the balances- THAT CANNOT BE DONE BY PUNISHMENT OR WORKS OR RESTITUTION.
Any and all punishment/kolassis/pur meted it out is ONLY TO HELP ONE SEE, to open the eyes of the blind, to consume the veil that covers the eyes of the hearts of the adversaries, operating in the form of bringing light that is fire to darkness/flesh/veils.
Once the person/being SEES, JUSTICE IS RENDERED. Anyone who does not glorify God in the moment of their conviction, has not seen. Thus, into the lake of fire(now or then, same principle).
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
(2Co 3:14-16)
Those who have not turned to the Lord remain veiled/blinded/in darkness.
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:18)
Those who have turned to the Lord are being JUSTIFIED from glory to glory, from vision to deeper vision as the veils are removed in progressive sanctification thru the spirit of grace.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
(2Co 4:3-6)
Those who have not seen are lost. We are the lamp set upon the Lampstand, the City set on a hill. The darker it gets the more clearly we will shine- For God who has commanded the light to shine out of the darkness has shined in our hearts to give the light........
and the earth was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep, and the Spirit hovered over the face of the waters, and the voice of the lord said, 'LET THERE BE LIGHT, and there was light and god saw that it was good, and there was evening and morning, the first day :o)
this is the FIRST DAY. Seeing Jesus crucified(evening) and raised from the dead(morning) to conquer sin and death. Repentence(evening, experiencing the revelation of the cross) and faith towards God(morning, the all sufficiency of God in our lives)
:2c:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Oh man, the glory of God's grace just overwhelms me. I am so glad I am on a "need to know" basis. All I need to know is Christ and Him crucified. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: misszoolander on February 04, 2013, 11:46:08 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 04, 2013, 08:29:13 AM
Forgiveness is the greatest justice. It involves accountability(acknowledgment by the transgressor) and reconciliation(acceptance of the broken and contrite heart) by the one transgressed against. That is why mercy triumphs over judgment. That is why....
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
(Psa 85:10)
Agree 100%.
Justice is not complete, until both companies can forgive one another.
Sort of ... forgive them it will teach them a lesson?
Well, more like, forgive them and the grace of Christ's cross will be the light shining through you to consume their veils of darkness and open their eyes to the goodness of God ;o)
yes...God's goodness leads to repentance.
Daniel 8;26 The vision of the evenings and mornings given to you is true,but seal up the vision
for it concerns the distant future[now]
and a host was given him against the daily sacrifice
For it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. Romans 2:4
Of course, it doesn't always look like kindness as it is leading us there ;o)
All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
(Heb 12:11)
What I see here is not so much an act of justice, or even judgement. What strikes me is that every time we move away from those words and try to hook them up with something else, for example love, we merely confuse the issue. Those things are already defined without justice, or judgement.
The only one which really makes sense to me is not that justice is redefined to somehow be part of something less odious, like love, but that justice and judgement are eclipsed. Their definitions are still as horrible and mean as ever, they are simply stepped over. What was once a great barrier to understanding is now, at best, a tiny speed bump, the overcoming of which is nothing at all. I don't think we get anywhere by saying there is no awful justice or judgement. I think it more honest to say that we simply bypass it. It doesn't matter anymore. It's power lay in our fear of it. Now that God has taken us, its hold over us is gone as well.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 05, 2013, 05:00:30 AM
All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
(Heb 12:11)
Yes, kind of like slogging through the OT, and then joyfully reading the NT, and becoming a better person thereby.
VB I asked what you meant by justice. Sorry to go all lexical on ya again here, but judgement has overtones to it that are read into the scriptures (at least compared to a new covenant perspective). Judgement means to make a decision. We have been trained to think its harsh punishment aka hell. Justice the same thing. Its not eye for an eye. Its doing right to people, in fact what is many times translated as righteousness, the word diakos, is justice. That means not taking advantage of people, serving others, walking in Gods will.
It is the greek word that is used in the LXX for tsedek, Melchizedek is melchi +tsedek= king of justice/righteousness. And that is Jesus. He is Melchizedek, and her is how he administers justice "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".
:2c:
Quote from: VineBranch on February 03, 2013, 10:05:10 PM
With UR showing us that all will eventually be reconciled to God, what becomes of our notion of justice?
Does our concept of wrongs committed against others undergo a transition as well?
How will wrongs be re-dressed?
Does forgiveness subsume all?
Can there truly be such a thing as repentance?
God's justice is higher than man justice. God's justice requires that everything is returned to the way it was before the offence occurred. Man's justice cannot do that, but God's justice can. This is what God's(love's) justice requires:
1.Vengeance for the victims(man's justice).
2.Rehabilitation of the perpetrator(Grace).
3.The reconciliation of the perpetrator and victim(repentance and forgiveness). Yes, God's justice requires Vengeance, Grace and Reconciliation. That is call setting things right, back to the way it was before the offence occurred. In fact, that is the Biblical definition of justice--
"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right"? Genesis 18:25.
So, part of justice is for us to repent, and do right, to be just.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 05, 2013, 06:55:50 AM
So, part of justice is for us to repent, and do right, to be just.
Yes. A part of God's Justice is for us to repent, confess our sins, and do be just--"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and [just] to [forgive] us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1John 1:9.
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 05, 2013, 06:04:44 AM
VB I asked what you meant by justice. Sorry to go all lexical on ya again here, but judgement has overtones to it that are read into the scriptures (at least compared to a new covenant perspective). Judgement means to make a decision. We have been trained to think its harsh punishment aka hell. Justice the same thing. Its not eye for an eye. Its doing right to people, in fact what is many times translated as righteousness, the word diakos, is justice. That means not taking advantage of people, serving others, walking in Gods will.
It is the greek word that is used in the LXX for tsedek, Melchizedek is melchi +tsedek= king of justice/righteousness. And that is Jesus. He is Melchizedek, and her is how he administers justice "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".
:2c:
Please brother, never apologize for going lexical ... words am the coolest things.
You've asked a fair question (what do I mean by justice). I mean this ...
In my world there are consequences to actions. Those consequences have been observed and taught since we were children. You stick your hand on a flame, and it hurts. This is a 'natural' (we can debate that word later if you wish) consequence of cause and effect. As we grow older we see this spread into a wide range of contexts.
We grow to see it acted out in the arena of human behaviour. You stay up all night with your friends, and the next day you are tired, and probably don't do as great a job at what ever it is you do.
We further learn that there are social consequences to acts. You embarrass you girlfriend in front of her friends, she makes your life less than fun. These are consequences to our actions.
We then figure out, the notion of moral consequences. This in my mind is where justice lives. The definition I was using was quite simply: "the administration of deserved punishments or rewards." True justice can only be administered by one outside the realm of opinion. Justice can't be based on opinion, it must be based on objective knowledge. The following is just and example, I pray you, don't take umbrage with the specifics, any example would have done.
When I read that the wages of sin is death (I think it should be 'are' death, but then I've been down that road too many times to argue it anymore), firstly, I think they have a lousy union, and secondly, the natural moral consequence of sin is the sinner dying. traditionally, most of what I knew about God was that He was a just god. I took that to mean that He was in charge of punishment and reward.
The notion of judgment is simply, "forming an opinion, or conclusion, from circumstances and situation which present themselves." Thus, if the wages of sin 'is' death, the logical conclusion is if you sin you die and it is not an opinion, but it's the gig.
When UR came along, there was no punishment: if 'all' will be drawn to God, and there will be none lost there is no punishment ... ergo no justice. So, I asked, where did it go?
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 05, 2013, 06:50:11 AM
This is what God's(love's) justice requires: 1.Vengeance for the victims(man's justice) 2.Rehabilitation of the perpetrator(Grace) 3.The reconciliation of the perpetrator and victim(repentance and forgiveness). Yes, God's justice requires Vengeance, Grace and Reconciliation.
God's love requires vengeance?
Could you go over that. Maybe slowly: visual aids might help. This is a strange god to me, so maybe you could use small words.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 05, 2013, 08:57:31 AM
When UR came along, there was no punishment: if 'all' will be drawn to God, and there will be none lost there is no punishment ... ergo no justice. So, I asked, where did it go?
I may not be addressing the question with the exact answer, but it's what keeps coming into my mind so I'll put it out there. Wouldn't the all-encompassing, finished (tetelestai, paid in full) work of the cross come in there somewhere? Blessings.
Amen James.
VB you are right on with the word natural, that is the word used often in 1 Co 15 when it speaks of the natural and the spiritual. All of this goes back to the 2 trees in the midst of the garden (possibly occupying the same space, but that is for another time). The TOKOGAE is the natural. Good and Evil. Punishment and Reward. That is the function of the law. There are natural laws in this realm. There are consequences. The law though was weak and useless. To do what? JUSTIFY. It could never make us right, which is the positive part of justice (according to modern usage, and OT usage). According to the law we all deserve death. Thats it. And we got it. According to Gods measure all the retribution required is death. The OT was tied to temporal reward and consequence. Nothing after, which is as we know one of the pillars to knock down in ET, the OT had no real "eternal" consequence.
Even if there is some, like Jab said things changed. And where there is a death of the testator their is a new testament. And with a change of the testament there is a change in the priesthood. The cross was the summing up of law. It was fulfilled. Tetelestai, paid in full. We are no longer judged according to the law because Christ died, all died. We are now judged according to the Tree of Life, which is Christ. We have been set free from the law of sin and death. The only retribution is to be changed into the image of the heavenly. Yes death and law still exist in this realm, but like you said the judge must be outside of the situation. And He is. He is Life. The TOKOGAE/Law was buried in the ground. And the Tree of Life sprouted up. Thats why we only see the TOL in Rev. Flesh and blood cannot inheret the kingdom of God. Spirit and Life can.
Quote from: jabcat on February 05, 2013, 09:21:08 AM
Quote from: VineBranch on February 05, 2013, 08:57:31 AM
When UR came along, there was no punishment: if 'all' will be drawn to God, and there will be none lost there is no punishment ... ergo no justice. So, I asked, where did it go?
I may not be addressing the question with the exact answer, but it's what keeps coming into my mind so I'll put it out there. Wouldn't the all-encompassing, finished (tetelestai, paid in full) work of the cross come in there somewhere? Blessings.
Yes very definitely, that is why I asked the example be treated only as such. I was using the cause and effect of sin and death to show a logical connection, not deny the work of the cross. Any statement which said x leads to y would have done. It's just, most of us seem to be familiar with that example.
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 05, 2013, 03:30:00 PM
Amen James.
VB you are right on with the word natural, that is the word used often in 1 Co 15 when it speaks of the natural and the spiritual. All of this goes back to the 2 trees in the midst of the garden (possibly occupying the same space, but that is for another time). The TOKOGAE is the natural. Good and Evil. Punishment and Reward. That is the function of the law. There are natural laws in this realm. There are consequences. The law though was weak and useless. To do what? JUSTIFY. It could never make us right, which is the positive part of justice (according to modern usage, and OT usage). According to the law we all deserve death. Thats it. And we got it. According to Gods measure all the retribution required is death. The OT was tied to temporal reward and consequence. Nothing after, which is as we know one of the pillars to knock down in ET, the OT had no real "eternal" consequence.
Even if there is some, like Jab said things changed. And where there is a death of the testator their is a new testament. And with a change of the testament there is a change in the priesthood. The cross was the summing up of law. It was fulfilled. Tetelestai, paid in full. We are no longer judged according to the law because Christ died, all died. We are now judged according to the Tree of Life, which is Christ. We have been set free from the law of sin and death. The only retribution is to be changed into the image of the heavenly. Yes death and law still exist in this realm, but like you said the judge must be outside of the situation. And He is. He is Life. The TOKOGAE/Law was buried in the ground. And the Tree of Life sprouted up. Thats why we only see the TOL in Rev. Flesh and blood cannot inheret the kingdom of God. Spirit and Life can.
So, are you saying then that the only reason there was a notion of justice is because there was the law? Paul said he knew what sin was because the law showed him. Is it the case then that the only way there can be justice is that there is law, and when the law was fulfilled, justice was put away? Is there no justice without the law? That sounds intriguing.
I am seeing that to me, it is more and more a property of my understanding of UR. It is very incomplete, and I'll be the first to admit it. My thinking was, it didn't really matter how long it took, eventually there would be justice, a separation of those God understood to have tried to live according to his purposes, and those who chose to separate themselves from Him, by being totally about themselves. With UR, eventually all will be reconciled, so there is no eventual justice, only reconciliation. If what you are saying is true, it is the law which removed justice, as I understood it, from the table. Did I get that right?
I LOVE the book of Jonah for that very reason. I remember one of my professors saying Jonah was probably the "worst" prophet in regards to the fact that his heart wasn't for the people, yet he was one of the "best" prophets in that his message was actually incredibly effective. Another one of those divine ironies LOL!
Quote from: VineBranch on February 05, 2013, 09:02:24 AM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 05, 2013, 06:50:11 AM
This is what God's(love's) justice requires: 1.Vengeance for the victims(man's justice) 2.Rehabilitation of the perpetrator(Grace) 3.The reconciliation of the perpetrator and victim(repentance and forgiveness). Yes, God's justice requires Vengeance, Grace and Reconciliation.
God's love requires vengeance?
Could you go over that. Maybe slowly: visual aids might help. This is a strange god to me, so maybe you could use small words.
You are misquoting me. I didn't say God's love requires vengeance, I said God's(love's)
JUSTICE requires vengeance. Remember, God is love(1John 4:8). So I could just as easily have said Love's
JUSTICE requires vengeance. This is how God's justice work's--''Never pay back evil for evil to anyone'' Romans 12:17. ''Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written,
''VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY, SAYS THE LORD'' Romans 12:19. And how does God expect us to pay back evil--
''But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. God would not tell us to do something that He Himself would not do. Also God's wrath and vegeance are expression of God's love. In other words, love can hurt sometimes. Any disobedient child who has been spanked by loving parents can tell you that.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 05, 2013, 05:59:53 PM
You are misquoting me. I didn't say God's love requires vengeance, I said God's(love's) JUSTICE requires vengeance.
If God's love is the source of justice, and that justice is created to desire vengeance, then it is the source which created the need for vengeance. If that is true then the source seeks vengeance. If God's love seeks vengeance, then the source of God's love, ie. God, seeks vengeance, or else God has no integrity and is not the all and all.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 05, 2013, 05:59:53 PM
Remember, God is love(1John 4:8). So I could just as easily have said Love's JUSTICE requires vengeance.
But you didn't, you said God's love seeks vengeance.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 05, 2013, 05:07:15 PM
So, are you saying then that the only reason there was a notion of justice is because there was the law? Paul said he knew what sin was because the law showed him. Is it the case then that the only way there can be justice is that there is law, and when the law was fulfilled, justice was put away? Is there no justice without the law? That sounds intriguing.
I am seeing that to me, it is more and more a property of my understanding of UR. It is very incomplete, and I'll be the first to admit it. My thinking was, it didn't really matter how long it took, eventually there would be justice, a separation of those God understood to have tried to live according to his purposes, and those who chose to separate themselves from Him, by being totally about themselves. With UR, eventually all will be reconciled, so there is no eventual justice, only reconciliation. If what you are saying is true, it is the law which removed justice, as I understood it, from the table. Did I get that right?
Not that justice was put away, but redefined. Or resurrected. Just as the law(justice) was nailed to the cross and buried in the ground in Jesus' flesh, it was resurrected in His glorious body. It being love God, love others. Gods wrath is literally orgy, it is an outpouring of His fiery love which transforms all into His image.
Heaping burning coals on their heads is saving their lives. When people would lose fire they could die from the cold, so they would go to the neighbors house and ask for coals to light their fire. They carried it on their heads in a little container.
And yes the law did remove justice(natural justice) because it wrapped all up in disobedience so that he may have mercy on all.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 05, 2013, 06:25:04 PM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 05, 2013, 05:59:53 PM
You are misquoting me. I didn't say God's love requires vengeance, I said God's(love's) JUSTICE requires vengeance.
If God's love is the source of justice, and that justice is created to desire vengeance, then it is the source which created the need for vengeance. If that is true then the source seeks vengeance. If God's love seeks vengeance, then the source of God's love, ie. God, seeks vengeance, or else God has no integrity and is not the all and all.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 05, 2013, 05:59:53 PM
Remember, God is love(1John 4:8). So I could just as easily have said Love's JUSTICE requires vengeance.
But you didn't, you said God's love seeks vengeance.
This is the second time you have misquoted me. Where in any of my comments did I say God's love seeks vengeance? Those are your opinions of what you think I mean. If you are not sure what some of my comments mean, why not just ask me what they mean, instead of assuming you know what they mean? Is this how you discuss with other posters by misquoting them? If that's the case our discussion becomes fruitless.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 05, 2013, 05:04:31 AM
What I see here is not so much an act of justice, or even judgement. What strikes me is that every time we move away from those words and try to hook them up with something else, for example love, we merely confuse the issue. Those things are already defined without justice, or judgement.
The only one which really makes sense to me is not that justice is redefined to somehow be part of something less odious, like love, but that justice and judgement are eclipsed. Their definitions are still as horrible and mean as ever, they are simply stepped over. What was once a great barrier to understanding is now, at best, a tiny speed bump, the overcoming of which is nothing at all. I don't think we get anywhere by saying there is no awful justice or judgement. I think it more honest to say that we simply bypass it. It doesn't matter anymore. It's power lay in our fear of it. Now that God has taken us, its hold over us is gone as well.
IMO, There is nthing at all odious about justice or judgment(depending on what you mean by judgement perhaps- I mean the discernment and righteous revelation of God)). They are both CLEARLY scriptural definitions of elements of God's character. Therefore they must integrate with the whole love paradigm because, GOD IS LOVE. Yet, in love God is teaching us to be just, as a manifestation of respect for our fellow human beings. Respect is also an element of love. God judges(exposes, reveals, destroys) wickedness and iniquity- as transgressions of His love. He punishes evil doers, as a part of the revelation of His character because He loves. He desires that we would love. He is teaching us to love through forgiveness AND discipline. IMO, We do not step over justice and judgement into love. We step through them into love, as we learn to be more like God who loves justice, and hates iniquity- the transgression of love. He does not, however, hate evil doers, but rather forgives them and loves them even as He disciplines them, in order that eventually they will see the error of their way and the beauty of Hs love. It just doesnt look like love to them when He is doing it(disciplining, judging). Only when the veil is taken away, after they have turned to the Lord, will His justice and His discipline look like love.
"Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me..... Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life."
exactly,EW! :thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
U know its funny how the translators have translated the phrase from Rev " he will rule them with a rod of iron". That word rule is the word Jesus uses when he tells Peter to shepherd his sheep.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 05, 2013, 07:00:10 PM
This is the second time you have misquoted me.
First of all, I didn't quote you. If you look at reply # 35 you notice these words,
Quote from: VineBranch on February 05, 2013, 09:02:24 AM
God's love requires vengeance?
Take a good look rj, you'll see there are no quotation marks around the words I wrote. When you read all the way to the end of the sentence, you will see a question mark. I was questioning whether or not this is what you said. Your
accusation that I misquoted you is not only false, it hurts. I try very hard to be honest in my dealing with words, especially the words of others.
In reply #42 you accuse me of misquoting you, words that sting, but I'll get past it.
In reply #43 I explain what I meant. You didn't make any mention of it, nor did you comment on whether you thought my logic was flawed. Did you read the explanation? I'll enclose it in this paragraph in case you just sort of skimmed over it on your way to making your point: "If God's love is the source of justice, and that justice is created to desire vengeance, then it is the source which created the need for vengeance. If that is true then the source seeks vengeance. If God's love seeks vengeance, then the source of God's love, ie. God, seeks vengeance, or else God has no integrity and is not the all and all." This is an argument predicated on the notion that God is infinite. If you disagree, we could discuss the logic.
I went out of my way to read what you wrote, I think your first attempt at equating God and love could have been better served had you capitalized the word love in the paranthesis, otherwise love/Love becomes very tangled and complicated. See, I had to guess what you meant, because your English was confusing. Then I asked a question to varify that what I read was what you meant .
Imagine my surprise when I read along and found out that ...
In reply #45 you accused me of misquoting you again. May I take the liberty of showing the words to which you allude (rhetorical question, no question mark needed) ...
Quote from: VineBranch on February 05, 2013, 06:25:04 PM
But you didn't, you said God's love seeks vengeance.
Again, notice the absence of quotation marks. If you disagreed with my words, or
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 05, 2013, 07:00:10 PM
If you are not sure what some of my comments mean, why not just ask me what they mean, instead of assuming you know what they mean? Is this how you discuss with other posters by misquoting them? If that's the case our discussion becomes fruitless.
Those were you words right? This isn't a misquote?
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 06, 2013, 02:46:29 AM
:thumbsup:
U know its funny how the translators have translated the phrase from Rev " he will rule them with a rod of iron". That word rule is the word Jesus uses when he tells Peter to shepherd his sheep.
You're right. It's the word for tending as a shepherd But as far as I know, shepherds don't use iron staffs. Nor do they hit the sheep. But here we see him breaking the potter's vessels to pieces with this iron staff.
It sounds like a threat to me.
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
--Rev 2
"rule"G4165
ποιμαίνω
poimainōpoy-mah'ee-no
From G4166;
to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
--Psalm 2
Although I guess it could be worse.
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
--Mat 21:44
Notice that it is the potters vessels that get broken.
IMO this is speaking of the nations, specifically their governments, leaders, institutions. If you believe in a historical millennial reign(I do) it makes sense that as the "Word of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea", there will be some resistance. The purpose of breaking the "potter's vessels" is to extend the Jubilee of God to all people, everywhere, in a "Day" during which the world will see what the rule of love, equity and justice could have always been, because it WILL BE. :2c:
Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing? The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, "Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!" He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them. Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain." "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession. 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'" Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling. Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!
(Psa 2:1-12)
That's interesting. So you are saying it's the nations that are the pots that are going to be broken into pieces. That's very interesting. Here, too?
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
--Rev 2
Rod of Iron then might be the king's scepter.
Quote from: lomarah on February 05, 2013, 05:58:16 PM
I LOVE the book of Jonah for that very reason. I remember one of my professors saying Jonah was probably the "worst" prophet in regards to the fact that his heart wasn't for the people, yet he was one of the "best" prophets in that his message was actually incredibly effective. Another one of those divine ironies LOL!
I sometimes feel like Jonah, I can relate. Something good happened to someone I didn't like because of something I did: I hate my life thanks God! I'm gonna sit in my booth and eat that worm when it comes for the gourd, that'll show you.
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 05, 2013, 06:36:16 PM
Not that justice was put away, but redefined. Or resurrected.
I see that, but to me to be forgiven is to be removed from the consequences of justice. God loves me and because of that I won't be experiencing those consequences ... Christ experienced them for me, and thus I was removed from them: there is not justice now, just forgiveness and love. Justice is no longer an active ingredient in my life.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 06, 2013, 02:19:27 AM
IMO, There is nthing at all odious about justice or judgment(depending on what you mean by judgement perhaps- I mean the discernment and righteous revelation of God)). They are both CLEARLY scriptural definitions of elements of God's character. Therefore they must integrate with the whole love paradigm because, GOD IS LOVE. Yet, in love God is teaching us to be just, as a manifestation of respect for our fellow human beings. Respect is also an element of love. God judges(exposes, reveals, destroys) wickedness and iniquity- as transgressions of His love. He punishes evil doers, as a part of the revelation of His character because He loves. He desires that we would love. He is teaching us to love through forgiveness AND discipline. IMO, We do not step over justice and judgement into love. We step through them into love, as we learn to be more like God who loves justice, and hates iniquity- the transgression of love. He does not, however, hate evil doers, but rather forgives them and loves them even as He disciplines them, in order that eventually they will see the error of their way and the beauty of Hs love. It just doesnt look like love to them when He is doing it(disciplining, judging). Only when the veil is taken away, after they have turned to the Lord, will His justice and His discipline look like love.
"Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me..... Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life."
Fair enough eagle, but could we not say that about Eternal Torment at well?
A sceptre (or scepter in U.S. English) is a symbolic ornamental rod or wand borne in the hand by a ruling monarch as an item of royal or imperial insignia.
Use of a rod or staff as representing authority can be traced to the beginning of Classical Antiquity. Among the early Greeks, the sceptre (Ancient Greek: σκῆπτρον, skeptron, "staff, stick, baton") was a long staff, such as Agamemnon wielded (Iliad, i) or was used by respected elders (Iliad, xviii. 46; Herodotus 1. 196), and came to be used by judges, military leaders, priests and others in authority.
Among the Etruscans, sceptres of great magnificence were used by kings and upper orders of the priesthood, and many representations of such sceptres occur on the walls of the painted tombs of Etruria. The British Museum, the Vatican and the Louvre possess Etruscan sceptres of gold, most elaborately and minutely ornamented.
The Roman sceptre probably derived from the Etruscan. Under the Republic an ivory sceptre (sceptrum eburneum) was a mark of consular rank. It was also used by victorious generals who received the title of imperator, and its use as a symbol of delegated authority to legates apparently was revived in the marshal's baton.
In the Hellenistic period, the biblical Book of Esther mentions the sceptre of the King of Persia.
Sceptres with small shrines on the top are sometimes represented on royal seals, as on the great seal of Edward III, where the king, enthroned, bears such a sceptre, but it was an unusual form; and it is of interest to note that one of the sceptres of Scotland, preserved at Edinburgh, has such a shrine at the top, with little images of Our Lady, Saint Andrew and Saint James the Great in it. This sceptre was, it is believed, made in France about 1536, for James V. Great seals usually represent the sovereign enthroned, holding a sceptre (often the second in dignity) in the right hand, and the orb and cross in the left. Harold appears thus in the Bayeux tapestry.
--Wikipedia
So, you see, these kings and queens of Christian countries already thought they were ruling with a rod of iron [the king's scepter granted to him by Christ].
Were they? Maybe they were.
This Royal Throne of Kings, This Sceptred Isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise ...
Richard II, Act 2, Scene 1
There you go.
Too bad it's becoming a muslin country now.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 06, 2013, 07:22:43 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 05, 2013, 06:36:16 PM
Not that justice was put away, but redefined. Or resurrected.
I see that, but to me to be forgiven is to be removed from the consequences of justice. God loves me and because of that I won't be experiencing those consequences ... Christ experienced them for me, and thus I was removed from them: there is not justice now, just forgiveness and love. Justice is no longer an active ingredient in my life.
I don't think we can be removed from the consequences. They can be mitigated. They can be reversed at some point. We can even be forgiven. But, we kind of have to walk through the fire of our consequences, don't we? or we would learn nothing.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 06, 2013, 07:25:34 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 06, 2013, 02:19:27 AM
IMO, There is nthing at all odious about justice or judgment(depending on what you mean by judgement perhaps- I mean the discernment and righteous revelation of God)). They are both CLEARLY scriptural definitions of elements of God's character. Therefore they must integrate with the whole love paradigm because, GOD IS LOVE. Yet, in love God is teaching us to be just, as a manifestation of respect for our fellow human beings. Respect is also an element of love. God judges(exposes, reveals, destroys) wickedness and iniquity- as transgressions of His love. He punishes evil doers, as a part of the revelation of His character because He loves. He desires that we would love. He is teaching us to love through forgiveness AND discipline. IMO, We do not step over justice and judgement into love. We step through them into love, as we learn to be more like God who loves justice, and hates iniquity- the transgression of love. He does not, however, hate evil doers, but rather forgives them and loves them even as He disciplines them, in order that eventually they will see the error of their way and the beauty of Hs love. It just doesnt look like love to them when He is doing it(disciplining, judging). Only when the veil is taken away, after they have turned to the Lord, will His justice and His discipline look like love.
"Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me..... Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life."
Fair enough eagle, but could we not say that about Eternal Torment at well?
Of course not :o) Eternal torment teaches nothing, accomplishes nothing, illuminates nothing, results only in purpose-less pain.
Quote from: eagleswaypurpose-less pain
Why does that sound so familar?
Welcome to my former life!
I can relate.
I just had a thought believe it or not.
If almost all pagans and some christians will not or cannot forgive the simplest slight
from another (Like getting cut off in traffic or not let in in traffic) how would they learn to forgive
by being tortured endlessly - or even for an extraordinary length of time? If humans are concious
would they just forgive and forget what God had done to them? If they are not concious, again we have purposeless
punishment. Who learns anything while they are unconcious?
If one is concious and they know they will be tormented for eternity, I think the only thing they would learn
is that they still hate God - only now they have a real reason to.
Quote from: Molly on February 06, 2013, 07:34:24 AM
I don't think we can be removed from the consequences. They can be mitigated. They can be reversed at some point. We can even be forgiven. But, we kind of have to walk through the fire of our consequences, don't we? or we would learn nothing.
That's an interesting thought Molly. I guess I could agree if I didn't have this UR perspective. Christ will draw all unto Himself. It doesn't IMO say that will be after I learn. He died for me while I was still His enemy. I didn't have to go through the consequences of my sin in order to learn how to be saved. His death removed mine, so my debt to Him was forgiven ie. removed. I guess UR has changed my entire perspective on time, and cause and effect. God did away with the ultimate consequence of my sin, and as such, I am freed from them.
Quote from: VBGod did away with the ultimate consequence of my sin, and as such, I am freed from them.
Yes, he did, considering that the ultimate consequence of your sin is death.
"death"a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life
"I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Jn 11:25
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. [Jn 11:26]
Quote from: VineBranch on February 06, 2013, 06:36:00 AM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 05, 2013, 07:00:10 PM
This is the second time you have misquoted me.
First of all, I didn't quote you. If you look at reply # 35 you notice these words,
Quote from: VineBranch on February 05, 2013, 09:02:24 AM
God's love requires vengeance?
Take a good look rj, you'll see there are no quotation marks around the words I wrote. When you read all the way to the end of the sentence, you will see a question mark. I was questioning whether or not this is what you said. Your accusation that I misquoted you is not only false, it hurts. I try very hard to be honest in my dealing with words, especially the words of others.
In reply #42 you accuse me of misquoting you, words that sting, but I'll get past it.
In reply #43 I explain what I meant. You didn't make any mention of it, nor did you comment on whether you thought my logic was flawed. Did you read the explanation? I'll enclose it in this paragraph in case you just sort of skimmed over it on your way to making your point: "If God's love is the source of justice, and that justice is created to desire vengeance, then it is the source which created the need for vengeance. If that is true then the source seeks vengeance. If God's love seeks vengeance, then the source of God's love, ie. God, seeks vengeance, or else God has no integrity and is not the all and all." This is an argument predicated on the notion that God is infinite. If you disagree, we could discuss the logic.
I went out of my way to read what you wrote, I think your first attempt at equating God and love could have been better served had you capitalized the word love in the paranthesis, otherwise love/Love becomes very tangled and complicated. See, I had to guess what you meant, because your English was confusing. Then I asked a question to varify that what I read was what you meant .
Imagine my surprise when I read along and found out that ...
In reply #45 you accused me of misquoting you again. May I take the liberty of showing the words to which you allude (rhetorical question, no question mark needed) ...
Quote from: VineBranch on February 05, 2013, 06:25:04 PM
But you didn't, you said God's love seeks vengeance.
Again, notice the absence of quotation marks. If you disagreed with my words, or
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 05, 2013, 07:00:10 PM
If you are not sure what some of my comments mean, why not just ask me what they mean, instead of assuming you know what they mean? Is this how you discuss with other posters by misquoting them? If that's the case our discussion becomes fruitless.
Those were you words right? This isn't a misquote?
Okay. Let's start afresh. I will try to address your question. You're saying what happens to justice if the salvation of all is true. This is what I believe. God's justice and mercy/forgiveness are expressions of God's love. Only sinners receive justice and only sinners need mercy/forgiveness. Once God has reconciled all sinners to Himself, cleansed all sinners of all unrighteousness, and given everyone immortality, justice and mercy/forgiveness are no longer needed. As long as we are in these sin prone corruptible bodies, justice and mercy/forgiveness will be an important part of our lives. Sorry for the misunderstanding between us. Blessings to you.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 06, 2013, 07:38:05 AM
Quote from: VineBranch on February 06, 2013, 07:25:34 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 06, 2013, 02:19:27 AM
IMO, There is nthing at all odious about justice or judgment(depending on what you mean by judgement perhaps- I mean the discernment and righteous revelation of God)). They are both CLEARLY scriptural definitions of elements of God's character. Therefore they must integrate with the whole love paradigm because, GOD IS LOVE. Yet, in love God is teaching us to be just, as a manifestation of respect for our fellow human beings. Respect is also an element of love. God judges(exposes, reveals, destroys) wickedness and iniquity- as transgressions of His love. He punishes evil doers, as a part of the revelation of His character because He loves. He desires that we would love. He is teaching us to love through forgiveness AND discipline. IMO, We do not step over justice and judgement into love. We step through them into love, as we learn to be more like God who loves justice, and hates iniquity- the transgression of love. He does not, however, hate evil doers, but rather forgives them and loves them even as He disciplines them, in order that eventually they will see the error of their way and the beauty of Hs love. It just doesnt look like love to them when He is doing it(disciplining, judging). Only when the veil is taken away, after they have turned to the Lord, will His justice and His discipline look like love.
"Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me..... Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life."
Fair enough eagle, but could we not say that about Eternal Torment at well?
Of course not :o) Eternal torment teaches nothing, accomplishes nothing, illuminates nothing, results only in purpose-less pain.
I am referring specifically to the part where you said, "He punishes evil doers, as a part of the revelation of His character because He loves. He desires that we would love." and the part where you said,"He does not, however, hate evil doers, but rather forgives them and loves them even as He disciplines them, in order that eventually they will see the error of their way and the beauty of Hs love. It just doesn't look like love to them when He is doing it(disciplining, judging). Only when the veil is taken away, after they have turned to the Lord, will His justice and His discipline look like love."
If eternity is time centered and will eventually end, and God is infinite (out of time), then is there not an argument to be made that Eternal Torment will only last as long as time does. When God brings those folk into infinity with Him, the Torment will cease because the eternity has ceased. By removing them from time God is taking away the veil, and bringing them to Himself. Then they can see that although it didn't look like love to them when they were inside time, when He brought them out of time and into his 'realm' His discipline now looks like love.
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 06, 2013, 02:28:45 PM
I just had a thought believe it or not.
If almost all pagans and some christians will not or cannot forgive the simplest slight
from another (Like getting cut off in traffic or not let in in traffic) how would they learn to forgive
by being tortured endlessly - or even for an extraordinary length of time? If humans are concious
would they just forgive and forget what God had done to them? If they are not concious, again we have purposeless
punishment. Who learns anything while they are unconcious?
If one is concious and they know they will be tormented for eternity, I think the only thing they would learn
is that they still hate God - only now they have a real reason to.
I think that is brilliant ded. Most things I've read over the last three decades have come to the conclusion that torture doesn't work.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on February 06, 2013, 08:22:03 PM
Okay. Let's start afresh. I will try to address your question. You're saying what happens to justice if the salvation of all is true. This is what I believe. God's justice and mercy/forgiveness are expressions of God's love. Only sinners receive justice and only sinners need mercy/forgiveness. Once God has reconciled all sinners to Himself, cleansed all sinners of all unrighteousness, and given everyone immortality, justice and mercy/forgiveness are no longer needed. As long as we are in these sin prone corruptible bodies, justice and mercy/forgiveness will be an important part of our lives. Sorry for the misunderstanding between us. Blessings to you.
You said exactly what I believe.
I apologize as well. Blessings to you too.